LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 20 May, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Present ing Reports By Stand ing and Specia l Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Economic Securi ty. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker , I have a brief ministerial statement to make. I would like to inform the members of the Assembly that I am annou ncing today the expansion and impr ovement of the Manitoba Su pplement for Pensioners' Program.

In keeping with our government's promise to Manitobans during the recent provincial election campaign, we will be making the following changes effective July 1: first, maximum quar terly benefits paid to low income Manitobans aged 55 and over will double; second, benefits will be indexed annually; and third, Manitobans aged 55 and over with certain income levels will qua lify for benefits whether or not they have any pension inc ome. Under the current program they must receive at least 50 percent of their income from pension sources to qualify.

Because of this last change, the program name will be changed to 55 Plus - A Ma nitoba Inc ome Sup plement. The program budget will almost triple from $3.3 million to about $9 million annua lly, and we anticipate that about 27,000 Manitobans will now receive benefits - an in crease of 9,000 from the present program. I've asked that copies of the news release pertaining to this announc ement and the new brochure for 55 Plus - A Manitoba Inc ome Supp lement be tabled for the members' information. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MRS. C.

OLESON: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I wish to thank the Min ister for his statement this afternoon. The Minister is announcing a program which, of course, had been announced by the Premier during the election and it was to start on the first of July, so he's probably announcing it just a little early today. This is the same government, of course, who has recently annou nced changes in the Pha rmacare deductible which they did not announce during the election and which are not going across the province very well.

Some seniors are finding it very difficult to cope with expenses and that adds another burden, so of course now the Minister gets up and announces something which will be of some bit of benefit to them with that. 180 This is the same government that altered the guidelines for the CRISP program so that there were many farm families who were taken off that program at a time when things are so very difficult for farm people and they could use that.

This is the same government that was going to change the Ho me Ec Di rectorate and elimi nate positions causing further trouble to people who are on low incomes and having problems. They are also increasing the personal care fees. So with one hand they take away and the other they give, and people are wondering just what is going on. I do believe though that this will be welcome news to some older women who are on very low incomes and who have no pension and I do commend the Minister for that. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. L.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I would like to table two repor ts: the Ann ual Report for the Department of Natural Resources for the year ended Ma rch 31, 1985; and the Ann ual Report for the Conservation Districts of Manitoba for the year ended December 30, 1984. MADAM SPEAKER: No tices of Mo tion ... Introduction of Bills . . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before we move to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where there are 29 students of Grade 9 standing from the Gabrielle Regional College. The students are under the direction of Mr.

Adrien Jubenville and the school is located in the constituency of the the Honourable Member for Springfield. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Inquiry- former Minister Wilson Parasiuk MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Premier.

In the wake of the resignation of the Minis ter of Energy and Min es yesterday, I wonder if the Premier is now intending to appoint an independent inquiry to investigate fully all of the actions and relationships of the Minister of Energy and Mines as a shareholder in the building known as 115 Bannatyne Avenue. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister.

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , what will be requested is an inquiry into the specific allegations that had been made pertaining to a contract involving the Limestone construction and one Mr. Davison. If the honourable member has some other specific allegations that he wishes to make, let him make those allegations and that will be considered. We're not going to go on a fishing exped ition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speak er, in view of the fact that as a member of the Treasury Board, the Min ister of Energy and Mines had a role to play in the approval of contracts or grants that would be given to tenants in that building or to fellow shareholder partners in that building, I would ask the Premier if he does not think that the time is right to clear the record compl etely and to not place a narrow scope on the investigation as to this one particular contract, but rather to open up all of the relationships between Mr. Parasiuk and fellow shareholders and, indeed, tenants of the building? HON. H.

PAWLEY: In order to ensure that everything is looked into in a proper way, I have asked the Min ister of Finance to request the Provincial Auditor to inquir e as to whether or not all grants, all other payments made to tenants of the building in question have been properly made and also to undertake a special audit under

Section 15(1) of The Provincial Auditor's Act. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , is that the extent of the investigation that we can expect then? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speak er, I don't know what criticism the honourable member would have of a request to the Provincial Auditor to investigate all facts pertaining to whether or not there has been anything improper under the provisions of the act, which it permits him to do so, to provide us with a report - a report that certainly I am prepared to ensure, along with the Minister of Finance, is tabled in this Cham ber. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, will the investigation be done in a public sense so that members of the public would not only be able to appreciate that an investigation has taken place, but would be able to see the nature of the investigation, the questions to be probed and to be asked, and the information to be solicited? HON. H.

PAWLEY: The inquiry that will be appointed insofar as the allegations involving the former Minister of Energy and Mines will be one that will be undertaken by an impartial, objective commis sioner. lt will be public, and that comm issioner would have the power to subpoena witnesses and documents and anything else that might be necessary in order that that comm issioner can carry out his/her responsibilities. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, if I may, I understand these are two separate investigations.

There is one to see whether or not the bills were properly paid by the government, which is being done by the Auditor, and there is a second, an appointment of a comm issioner that would investigate the whole relationship between Mr. Parasiuk and fellow partners in the building and tenants of the building? 181 HON. H. PAWLEY: There has been a specific allegation involving impropriety or a conflict of interest, one or the other, pertaining to a particular contract involving a Mr. Davison. That matter will be inqu ired into by a commission er.

MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that we address all honourable members by their constituency, not by their names. The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My question to the Premier is: does he not believe that it is important to ensure that the public knows that the matter has been fully investigated, that all of the relationships between the former Minister of Energy and Mines and other fellow owners of the building and other tenants in the building have to be made public so that we can ascertain and be satisfied that there was no potential conflict of interest in any of the relationships, not just the one contract between the Ma nitoba Energy Author ity over which he has jurisdiction and the particular consultant who's also a business partner of his? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, as I've indicated, the one particular contract that is a matter of some controversy, arising out of some stories in the paper, is being inquired, investigated, into and insofar as the ... - (Interjection) - Well, Ma dam Speaker , we are dealing with the Provincial Auditor and I have the highest respect for our Provincial Auditor. The Provincial Auditor will be providing us a report in this Cham ber. If there is anything further that requires inquiry or investigation arising from the Provincial Auditor's report, then we shall undertake further action.

This is a government, Madam Speaker, that does not hesitate and will not hesitate to ensure that there's openness so that the former member of this . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: . . . government can ensure that he receives a fair hearing, not a hearing as a result of unfounded allegation or witch hunt. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, the Premier has referred to the fact that the matter is being investigated. Has the commissioner been appointed? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, a number of ind ividuals are bei ng consid ered .

One has been approached, is considering same, and I would hope that in the next short period of time to be able, either myself or through the Attorney-General, to make an announcement of the appointment of a commissi oner. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, would the Premier undertake to table the letter from the Minister of Finance appointing the Auditor to do his review, whatever that review involves, and would he also table the terms of reference that are going to be given to the commissioner to investigate this matter? HON. H. PAWLEY: Both documents will be public documents, tabled in this Cham ber.

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, would the Premier consider allowing the Opposition to have an input into the terms of reference that are to be given to the commissione r, so that the matter will be investigated in the fullest sense so that all the shadows that currently hang over the former Min ister of Energy's head can be removed by a fair, open and impartial investigation? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, what I would propose is this, (

a) that we deal with any specific charge involving an individual. If we want to go into a fishing trip, insofar as any member of this Chamb er then let's enter into that involving all 57 members of this Cham ber, if we want to enter into a fishing exped ition. If the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has a specific allegation, let him make that allegation either in public or in private and that will be dealt with. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, the specific articles in the Free Press over the weekend refer not only to a contract that was awarded by the Manitoba Energy Authority to a business partner of the former Minister of Energy and Mines, but they refer to over $2 million in government grants and contracts being given to tenants in the building in which the Min ister of Energy was a sharehold er. I refer specifically to the fact that as a member of Treasury Board , the Min ister of Energy would be involved in the decision-making that led to contracts and to grants being awarded .

I ask the Premier whether or not he would consider allowing those aspects to be investigated because they all come within the ambit of a potential for conflict of interest? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, all of those aspects will be looked into by way of a report from the Provincial Auditor as to expenditures including the fact that the Member for Lakeside, while Min ister, approved a con tract of $963,000 involving No. 10 Architect which operates from that building which was responsible for the construction of the Court House - $963,000 which I don't question.

I think the architectural work was well done, but let it be unde rstood when the honou rable member proceeds on an expedition, that particular contract properly was awarded to a tenant of that building by the Memb er for Lake side involving $963,000.00. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, the Premier doesn't seem to understand that the Member for Lakeside doesn't have shar es in that building, that he wasn't involved financially in any way, shape or form.

We are talking about a Min ister of his government who was and is a shareholder in the building, who was and is a member of Treasury Board, and he had authority and jurisdiction over this. My question to the Premier, Madam Speaker, is, would he not consider allowing members on both sides of the House to have input into the criteria that are set for this investigation so that it is seen to be impartial, not as it would be if only one side of the House decided on the scope and criteria? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. 182 The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I certainly don't waant to reflect on the Provincial Auditor. The Provincial Auditor has been requested . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. I am not reflecting on the Provincial Auditor. I am reflecting on the terms of reference that you're setting. MADAM SPEAKER: That is not a point of order, as the Leader of the Opposition well knows. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: The Provincial Auditor has been requested, Madam Speaker, to provide us with a report insofar as tenants in the building, insofar as monies received by those tenants. If there are any irregularities, I am confident that the Provincial Auditor will point that out in his report to this Chamb er. Upon receipt, that report will be made public so that all members can survey the report and to ask any questions they wish arising from the report. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, we're speaking about the terms of reference given to the Auditor; we're speaking about the terms of reference to be given to the comm issioner to avoid the prospect of this being seen as a whitewash, as a cover-up. Would the Premier not agree to have input into the terms of reference to be given to the comm issioner? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I will not chase phantoms. If the honourable member has a specific charge, a specific allegation, let him rise to his feet and specify his particular charge. If that charge is one of substance, it will be included in any terms of reference.

But, Madam Speaker, I for one will not be a party to chasing phantoms. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question to the Premier is, did he have previous knowledge of the investment of the former Minister of Energy and Mines in the building known as 115 Bannatyne? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, in the letter that the former Minister of Energy and Mines forwarded to me in 1981, he indicated interest in the particular building. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question further to the Premier is, did he have knowledge previously of the investment in the building of Mi chael Decter, then former Clerk of the Executive Council? HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, I did. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, did the Premier have knowledge of the investment in that particular building of Ronald Bai ley, a sen ior officer in the Department of Co-op Investments? HON. H. PAWLEY: No, Madam Speaker.

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , my question to the Chairman of the Treasury Board is, did the former Min ister of Energy and Mi nes absent himself from discussions at Treasury Board on the awarding of contracts or grants to the tenants or partners of 11 5 Bannatyne? MADAM SPEAKER : The Ho nourable Mi nister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

As the Premier indicated, we have requested the Provincial Auditor to do a special audit with respect to any and all government grants or transactions related to that building and to determine whether or not those transactions were properly made, so all those items will be subject to the report of the Provincial Aud itor. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speak er, in view of the fact that minutes are kept of Treasury Board meetings, could the Chairman of the Treasury Board indicate whether or not the former Minister of Energy and Mines declared an interest in the building when any contracts or grants were being awarded to tenants and/or partners in the building? HON. E. KOSTYRA: As I indicated, the Provincial Auditor will be reviewing all items related to any government transaction with respect to that building. In terms of the specific question, I will take that as notice and see if that information is available. MR. G.

FILMON: Will the Auditor then be asked to examine the minutes of Treasury Board in order for us to know the answer to that question or can the Chairman of the Treasury Board not just simply review that matter and bring us the answer? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The review that will be done by the Provincial Auditor will be such that he will have access to all government documents with respect to any transactions with any businesses that are located in that building.

I would suggest to the member opposite that he should await the report and investigation of the Auditor which will be tabled here for discussion and for follow-up questioning if it's deemed to be necessary at that time. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Spea ker, in view of the fact that WMC Associates, over the course of the last two years, have had extensive government contracts - I believe in the fiscal year 19 84-85 they totalled $1 24,000 and prior to that they ha d a contract with the Department of Labour and this past year's included Co-op Development and the Manitoba Energy Authority - will the Premier undertake to table in the House all the reports prepared for departments of the Government of Manitoba by WMC Associa tes during the past two years? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I will take that under review. 183 MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, the Premier has jus t giv en us a lecture on the openne ss of his government and their desire to ensure that everything is going to be free and above board and open to public scrutiny. Why will he not table the reports that have been done by WMC and Associates for three different departments, paid for by public taxpayers' money, why will he not table the reports? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I regret that the Leader of the Opposition should choose to misrepresent and misinform. I did not say I would not.

I did indicate that I - (Interjection) - MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, what I did indicate is I will be speaking to the Ministers that are involved to ascertain what reports they have received. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, I want to assure the Premier through you that I too do not wish to chase phantoms, so I will addr ess my question to the Minister responsible for the Community Assets Program.

The private Art Club which counts among its members the former Minister of Energy and Mines, received a $50,000 grant to renovate the first floor of the building they occu py. That building is partly owned by the same former Minister of Energy and Mines. My question, was the grant approved by Treasury Board at the time the former Mi nister of Energy and Mines was a member of that Treasury Board? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Economic Security. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, those grants do not go through the Treasury Board process. MR. H.

ENNS: Well, Madam Speaker, I will examine that answer in greater form. lt's my understanding that expenditures of a particular sum, $5,000 or more all go through Treasury Board. Of course, that might have been changed under this group. Did the Clerk of the Executive Council, Mr. Decter, or Mr. Bailey, or Mr. Davison talk to them about approval of that grant? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the Auditor will be reviewing that and that will be part and parcel of the report. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Spea ker, my question for the Min ister of Emp loyment Services and Economic Security is, did either the former Clerk of the Executive Council, Mr. Decter, or the former Mi nister of Energy and Mines speak to the Minister about that community

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 assets grant for the renovation and restoration of 11 5 Bannatyne? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minis ter of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, the answer is no. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Just one more qu estion, Mada m Speaker , on the same subject. I wonder if the First Min ister is aware of how many other members of the Treasury Bench are members of that private Art Club. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: I must advise you that some 1, 500 Manitobans, I gather are members of that non-profit Co-op Arts Council. I regret I'm not one of those 1, 500 but I am now going to join the Co-op Arts Centre. After all the publicity over the weekend, my membership will be on the way. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. A question to the Minister of Co-op Development.

Would the Minister undertake to table shortly in this House tomor row the itemized funding that has taken place under the Co-operative Loan and Guarantee Board for the past four or five years, will he undertake to table that itemized statement in the House tomorrow? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co­ op Development. HON. J. COWAN: I don't know if I can have that much material available by tomorrow. I'd be pleased to answer any specific questions and I would be pleased to table that information as soon as it's available. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, could the Minister indicate whether the Winnipeg Arts Club received a loan from the Co-op Loan and Guarantee Board? HON. J. COWAN: Yes, it did. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, could the Minister inform the House whether or not that loan is close to $1 00,000 and could he identify for the House what the security is for that loan? HON. J. COWAN: I can't do that right at the moment, but I'd certainly be pleased to bring that information to question period tomorrow . MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, could the Minister inform the House as to whether or not the original application for the loan was made by Mr. Decter and Mr. Bailey? HON. J. COWAN: I can bring that information to the Hous e. To my knowledge it was not but let me refresh 184 my memory by going through the files and bring that information to the honourable member tomorrow for question period. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, could the Minister, when he's investigating that matter look at and determine whether or not Mr. Decter and Mr.

Bailey applied for the loan and then were advised that the loan application should be made by some other person and that the loan application was then made by Mr. Ma zur from Credo Commun ications with whom members opposite would be familiar? HON. J.

COWAN: I certainly have not heard that scenario previously in any conversation whatsoever, but I will check with the Co-operative Promotion Board to determine how that application was made and report back to the member tomorrow as to the full information as to who was in contact with them in regard to that loan and the decisions which were taken by them in regard to that loan. MR. G.

MERCIER: Could the Premier inform the House whether or not the Winnipeg Arts Club received any other form of financial assistance, loans or grants from the government other than the Community Assets Program or the loan from the Co-operative Loans and Guarantees Board? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: I believe there was a reference in the newspaper Saturday to a grant received from the MCAP Program.

That is a matter that, of course, will be part and parcel of the review by the Provincial Auditor's Depar tment, but we were advised by newspaper accounts of an MCAP grant plus a sizable grant from the Federal Government, if I recall correctly of close to $30,000 to the Co-operative non-profit Arts Club involving some 1, 500 Ma nitobans that are members. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, could the Premier indicate whether Mr. Decter represented the province on an admin istrative comm ittee along with the civil servants from the city and Federal Governments relating to the Core Area Initiative? HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes.

MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, could the Premier indic ate whether or not Mr. Decter played any role in rec ommen ding or approving core area projects, particularly those that were close to 11 5 Bannatyne Avenue ... A MEMBER: How close? MR. G. MERCIER: Well, the roadway and the park that are adjacent. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, this is what I was concerned about a few min utes ago. Ho nour able members do want to practice McCarthyism and a witch hunt

Tuesday , 20 May, 1986 SOME HONOUR ABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, yes . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: . . I can advise the - (Interjection) - however, I can . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: . . . advise the honourable member that insofar as the paving stones within a two block area that is referred to in the newspaper account of Saturday, apparently that was entirely the initiative of the City of Winnipeg. I can also advise the honourable member that I'm informed despite the fact that Mr.

Decter could have applied for Core Area Initiative funds in order to assist him in the renovation of the building on Bannatyne Avenue, he chose not to make the application because of sensitivity. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker , a question to the Premier, is he prepared to broaden the terms of reference to include the activities of Mr. Decter and Mr. Bailey in obtaining government funding for projects within and adjacent to 11 5 Bannatyne Avenue? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: I am afraid I didn't get that question - with respect to projects including and adjacent to MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, would the Premier be prepared to broaden the terms of reference to include an investigation into the involvement of Mr. Decter and Mr. Bailey in provincial funding or grants to organizations within the building or to core area grants or to the Loans and Guarantees Board, etc? Is he prepared to include that within the terms of the inquiry? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I don't see any problem with that question. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Spea ker. My question is to the Honourable First Minister. Mr.

Premier, I think we all felt, as members, some regret over the weekend at the allegations that were made. I think also we felt that the announcement of a public inquiry would clear the air. Are you not concerned that the limitations placed on this public inquir y will, in fact, not do that and that our former Minister of Mines will still live under the burden of guilt? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Spea ker, I'd like to know, guilty of what? There has been one specific charge. 185 We're dealing with that specific charge.

If the honourable member, along with other honourable members, wish to bring forth specific charges, that will be dealt with too. lt's my understanding of the justice system that you deal with specific allegations of wrongdoing. You don't go on a large-scale witch hunt, attempting for - as appears to be the case across the way - a pursuit of - (Interjection) - well I regret very much, Madam Speaker. If the honourable members have specific allegations, specific charges, let them bring those forth. We have asked the Provincial Auditor to look into the entire matter of the Bannatyne Avenue building.

If honourable members now seem to be somewhat uneasy about the specific charge because they know that it may or may not stand up, then let them come up with some other specific charges they want to level. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: My question again to the Honourable First Minister, Sir, I don't think there's any question that your former Minister was a part owner of this building, and that the enhancement of this building came about through beautification and also through the tenants who were able to pay large rents to this owner of the building.

Sur ely, the entire busi ness affairs of that buildin g should be part of this investigation. HON. H. PAWLEY: Ma dam Speaker, what the honourable member is doing is precluding the results of the enquiry to the public auditors as to whether or not there has been any improper or unfair enhancement or any gain. My own view, Madam Speaker - let me put it on the record - is that, if honourable members are alleging any gain, there has been no gain. Radioactivity - level of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Environment.

In view of the fact that there is concern in Northern Manitoba about the lack of information on levels of radioactivity following the Chernobyl disaster, and in view of the fact that the Federal Government has a testing station in Churchill, I would like to ask the Minister whether the Federal Government has provided the Min ister with inf ormation on the levels of radioactivity in Northern Manitoba? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, the figures I gave last week were a com posite for Winn ipeg and Chur chi ll.

The air monitoring in Churchill for the 24-hour period for the 7th and 8th of May was at the level of .003 bequerels per cubic metre of air. I remind you that the background level is 20 bequerels per cubic metre. The information I just provided is again a com posite which applies to a number of communities in the North, which include Churchill, Whitehorse, lnuvik, Goose Bay, Yellowknife, Hay River, Resolute Bay and Coral Harbo ur.

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 The period of May 1 to 7 showed no precipitation in Churchill and, if there was any testing of precipitation for the period of May 7 to the 14, I haven't got that result at the moment. I assume, therefore, that there was no precipitation during that period of time. MR. S. ASHTON: As a supplementary, Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that the particular concern with levels of radioactivity does relate to precipitation, I'd like to ask whether the Minister could keep members of this House and the public informed of any results from the Federal Government in this regard? HON. G.

LECUYER: Madam Speaker, yes, as the results of these samples are provided to us, we will share that information. All samples presently are flown to Ottawa on a daily basis, except for Winnipeg's water supp ly, which is tested by Pinawa in Manitoba. All the others are flown to Ottawa and, as soon as they are made available to us, we'll gladly make it available to this House. Inquiry- former Minister Wilson Parasiuk MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Spea ker, my question to the Premier is: did Cabinet approve the Community Assets Program grant of $50,000 to the Arts Co-op located in 11 5 Bannatyne? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourabl e Min ister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker , the procedure is that the grants are vetted from all organizations. As honourable members know, from around this province, we deal with hundreds of organizations who have received grants under this program, creating jobs for Ma nitobans and doing something useful for the organization involved.

The field staff get the applications, vet them and make their recommenda tions. They're reviewed by a committee set up by the Manitoba Jobs Fund. I'm a member of that comm ittee. The comm ittee presents the minutes of approvals and disapprovals, etc., and those minutes go to Cabine t for appr oval or di sapproval or modification, as a set of minutes. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speak er, did the former Minister of Energy and Mines make Cabinet aware at the time that the approval of a grant was being made to a tenant in a building in which he was an owner; did he make Cabinet aware of his involvement in that building at the time of the discussion, and absent himself from the discussion or the vote? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speak er, insofar as the building, a grant was not made to the building. The grant was made to the leasehold interest which involves 186 a Cooperative Arts Centre of Winnipeg.

Ma dam Speaker, the honourable member is assuming, insofar as declaration of conflict of interest, that it would be an amount that would be requir ed under the conflict of interest provisions. The conflict of interest provisions require a 5 percent interest prior to declaration. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, according to the information, he has more than a 5 percent interest in the building. The area that has to be examined with respect to this is, Madam Sp eaker, that the value of the building . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Question? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, on a point of order.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: The Minister of Energy and Mines does not have a 5 percent interest. I think that it would be appropriate for the Leader of the Opposition not to make statements in this House that are untrue and are unfair to the Minister of Energy and Mines. The Minister of Energy and Mines does not have a 5 percent interest in the building, consid erably less. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister was not on a point of order. A cl arification of the facts is not a point of order.

I also would like to ca ution the Leader of the Opposition. Beauchesne, Citation 360(2) says that a question may not ". . . seek information about matters which are in their nature secret, such as decisions or proceed ings of Cabinet." The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that the value of the building is essentially based on the rental value, on the capitalized value of the rents being paid in the building, and the rents being paid in the building were, to a certain extent, predicated on grants being given to organizations within the building, it seems to me that the former Minister of Energy had a great deal to gain . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Excuse me. If the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has a question - question period is not a time for deba te. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speak er, my qu estion to the Premier is: in view of the fact that the decision of Cabinet had the potential to enhance the economics and the finances of the former Minister of Energy and Mines, did he or did he not declar e the interest and absent himself from the vote? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I am not aware of any particular vote, if the honourable member is referring to a vote. Madam Speaker, if there is any impingement or infringement in respect to any provisions or laws of

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 the Province of Manitoba, that will be inquir ed with. Let me assure the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, that will be dealt with. There are provisions in respect to the conflict of interest provisions. If the hono urable leader wants to make a specific charge of a conflict of interest, let him make that specific ch arge and it will be looked into. Let him make the charge though, rather than go on a fishing expedition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, in referring to a case of a review of a conflict of interest allegation in Ottawa last week, the Federal Leader of the New Democratic Party said: "Such matters that do not involve the law, but questions of morality, ought to be assessed by Mr. Stevens' peers. We're not referring to a narrow definition of the law." Will the Premier not agree to a wide open investigation of all the allegations, all the relationships between the former Minister of Energy and Mines and the tenants and partners in the building?

MADAM SPEAKER: May I also remind the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, Beauchesne Citation 362, says a question should not be prefaced by the ". . . read ing of telegrams, letters or extracts from newspapers." The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Spea ker, I was reading a quote from Mr. Broad bent, and surely that is a relevant

preamble for a qu estion. I wonder if the Premier would answer that question. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, as I indicated some number of minutes ago, an enquiry has been made to the Provincial Auditor to do a comp lete investigation in respect to anything that might be cons id ered improper, if any, in respect to the tenants and the building in question. I have also indicated the intent to establish an independent inquir y arising out of a specific cha rge that has been made, a specific charge of conflict of interest or improp riety dealing with a particular item.

If the Leader of the Opposition wants to make another specific charge, let him make that specific charge, and that will be consi dered for inclusion in any terms of reference. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Ellice and the amendment thereto by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, the Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Spea ker, I'd like to start my presentation today by congr atulating you on the election to the high est office of this Chambe r, as the Sp eaker of the 187 Cham ber. lt is a job I do not envy you for. lt shall be, I'm sure, as Speakers have always found through time, a very trying position and one that requires a great deal of exactitude in your decisions, as well as a balance of fair play and the necessity of the adminis tration of the affairs of the House. I wish you well in your duties, Madam Speak er, as I'm sure the rest of the colleagues of the House do.

We'll work on our best to make sure that your rulings and that your term of office as Speaker of this august Assembly shall be a comfortable one for you and one beneficial to the whole Assembly. I would like, in particular as well, to welcome the 17 new members to this Legislature.

This Legislature is an incredibly important place. lt is the focal point of the political events for the people of Manitoba from the Whiteshell right through to the Saskatc hewan border, from the southern border of the province, from Miami to Churchill. lt's an opportunity for you, as individuals, to both represent your constituents on a local basis, as well as a responsibility to represent them and the province as a whole. Your responsibilities go far beyond the individual cons tituency, as I'm sure you are all aware.

In making your decisions, in your judgments, both personally and as a part of caucuses, I am sure that you will take the best interest of the province at hand and work through the legislative process to make our legislation that much more meaningful and that much more beneficial for the people of the Province of Manitoba. Many of you have come to provincial politics from the municipal route. I, myself, very much appreciate the hours, days and years of service that people at the municipal level of politics put in, in this province and across the country.

I'm sure that you will see a fair difference in the presentation, both in the process in the Legislative Assembly, but also the broader range of responsibilities one has at the provincial level. In saying that, I don't mean it at all necessarily to be a superior level of government. I think every level of government, be it federal, provincial or municipal, is equally important to the citizens who have concerns within the jurisdictions of those levels of government. I'm sure that you will give the same attention to provincial matters as one did previously at your city or local municipal matters.

Entering into the House, especially with so many new members, somewhat over one-third of the members of the House being new members, it gives us an opportunity I think to reflect and for you to add, when you come into a House with that kind of numbers, an oppo rtunity to make significant im pact on to the legislative process itself, to make it perhaps more meaningful, to make it more interesting for yourselves as individuals, as well as the whole governing process.

Perhaps, as you get more used to this place, one can work in a non-partisan manner on both sides of the House toward reforms, toward making the legislative process more reflective perhaps of the members present; to give the members in the Opposition, in particular, an opportunity to participate more in the formulation of the policy behind legislation and the imp lementation of legislation, taking the conc erns across the board. I don't think it simply has to be reserved to the actual legislative process of First, Seco nd, Third Readings. I

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 think one can perhaps use our comm ittee structure a bit mo re and usin g investigative comm ittees to investigate areas of policy, of government direction or of economic policy for the province, social problems. We've had a couple of members already make reference to their areas of interest, be it in health care, as the Member for River East brought her points to us on Friday afternoon and people on this side. Certainly the Member for Kildonan, has a great interest in alternative delivery of medical systems as well.

Perhaps through gr eater use of a comm ittee structure, establishing specialized standing comm ittees, one could work through that process to make recommendations to the government. I say that with some trepidation and that is because of the hi story and the tradition of the British parlia mentary system which puts the prime responsibility and authority with the Executive Branch of government, being the Cabinet. I would not want to see that interfered with, but I do feel there is room in the process for a greater amount of participation by members of the Legislature from both sides of the House in this instance.

Madam Speak er, it would be remiss of me if I did not also express some regret in my first presentation before this new Legislature, on the passing of some members - or at least not exactly pas sing, but members who are no longer with us. Two in particular I make reference to: the Member for Turtle Mountain; I certainly appreciated the four and a half years I had in this House opposite him. I respected his opinions a great deal.

I may have differed very strongly with the foundation of his beliefs, but I respected the beliefs that he came from, from what I feel was probably the clearest of the old Legislature's Opposition as far as bringing forth princip les from, I guess one could call it a clear, or a pure Conservative philosophy. it's a ph ilosophy which I don't necessarily take to wholeheartedly myself, to say the very least, but it is a legitimate economic and social philosophy as has been recognized by the history of our country, of our continent, and of British Parliaments or British-based Parliaments around the world.

He had a way of putting his arguments forward; it was not belligerent, it was well-reasoned and thoughtful, and he made a tremendous contribution to the last Legislature. I'm sure we will all miss him, especially the members opposite in the leadership role he provided in debate. Another member from our side, I would like to point out in particular, was the former Member for Springfield. As both our Government House Leader and Minister of Municipal Affairs, one of the most outstanding deba ters this House has seen for many, many years.

He, again, as the Member for Turtle Mountain deba ted things on a basis of philosophy and fact, so did the former Mem ber for Springfield. Although members opposite may not necessarily have agreed with every point he brought forward, they certainly listened. He made a significant contribution to this House in the short four and a half years he was with us. I look forward to seeing him back at some point in the future. I think with some confidence that he will return and I hope he will return to a more active political public life.

I shouldn't miss in passing a former seat mate of mine, as well, the former Member for River East. He made, I feel, quite an impression on this Legislature 188 in one area in particular: he was a constant advocate for tax reform and for Manitoba to take more of a lead in pushing tax reform. That's one of the reasons it was dealt with as a resolution in the last Legislature. lt was included in our election commitments this past time around and it's been included once again in the Throne Speech.

We will see more, I suspect, as this Session goes on, of various initiatives which we, as a government, with the support, I hope, of the opposition members for pushing for a true and sensible tax reform for this country. The tax system certainly right now is - if anything, it's not progressive anymore. lt has shifted more and more of the burden of our taxation upon the middle cla ss and the lower middle cla ss. lt has exempted huge pocke ts of access ible revenue through various corporate schemes, private schemes, whatever.

The whole taxation system has to have a thorough review to get us back to what I feel were the very sound principles of the Carter Commission back in the late Sixties, of 'a buck is a buck, and a buck should be taxed as a buck no matter how it is earned or where it comes from.' I don't hold much hope that that system will ever evolve as clean and as simple as that, especially with the present admin istration in Ottawa, with more or less its attitude that the only way you can get economic investment is to push strings of economic investment by offering tax incentives in particular.

Tax inc entives are like pushing a string, because you have very little direction over them and over the use of the money that will be saved by the firms in particular cases. More often than not, as we have seen in various examples, in time, the intended program gets co ntroverted by smart accountants and lawyers so that the essence of the program that may well have been intended is no longer present and it ends up being more of a seam than an actual vehicle for economic investment and incentive. Mr.

Deputy-Speaker, I would like, as well, to express my gratitude to the good people who populate lnkster constituency for their support once again in this election. lt makes one feel exceptionally good and somewhat gratified to see the level of support that was sustained in our constituency and once again - or at least this time - I had the largest majority for any New Democrat in the province and the second largest majority considering all people put together. I hope it reflects a little bit on my service this past four and a half years.

But as important, if not more important than that, I hope that it also reflects the confidence that the people have, not simply in myself but in the legislative process and in our government, that we will offer the soundest alternative available for a reasonable government in this province. I think we were able to run to a large extent in the last election on our record because we had a very good, sound record. Within my constituency of lnkster, I was particularly pleased to work with the residents.

One community in particular was the western community where we got a residents' association started about three years ago. Since that time, we have become the first community to benefit from a brand new City Winnipeg program called the Ma nitoba-W innip eg Urban Community Revitalization Program. This initiative is aimed at stimulating areas that are in large measure left outside the Core Area Initiative, where they were not eligible

Tuesday , 20 May, 1986 for funding under the core, but still vital and important communities within our City of Winnipeg, communities that cannot be ignored, can only be ignored to the peril of the residents of the whole province because you cannot afford to have a

section of a city or a small town - whatever - suffer and fall by the wayside. We must continue to work with the residents of the area in developing plans and programs that will be effective for those areas to keep them from slipping and, instead, to build upon their strengths, and to build strong vibrant communi ties throughout the city. In Weston, in particular, is a part of the city that has, I think, not a unique situation, but it was built around the turn of the century, most of the homes are on 25- and 30-foot lots. Many are smaller homes.

You have a di verse population, and particularly with older residents in the area, and it is exceptionally distressing for those people, who live in a communi ty where they have been virtually all their lives, to see people coming into the community as absentee landlords purchasing properties which are still relatively inexpensive, turning around, renting them out and not taking care of the property. in many instances to people who can't afford to be landlords - because to be a landlord is not a cheap undertaking. lt is something that takes a fair amount of investment by that person to make sure the property is maintained and working with the people who he has as tenants, or they have as tenants.

In other instances it's their classic slum landlords and the community unfortunately has its share of them. So we've got to work in developing programs with residents of commun ities like that, that they can maintain the pride of the older community, that they can be seen as a main part of the urban society that we live in today, and not as neglected centres of the city just because they are older and the homes perhaps aren't as modern as in the new subdivisions or as spacious. They are every bit as important for the people who live there.

For the people who have maintained ownership of their homes, who may be in their sixties, seventies or eighties, I feel we owe more to them, far far more as far as a comm itment from the various levels of government, to enable them to live in a secure setting and a tidy setting than we do to any of the new areas of the city. One other item I would like to speak on very briefly in regard to the city is the need within not only my constituency but other constituencies for an expansion of the Manitoba/Winnipeg revitalization program.

In my own commu nity, I also have the communi ties that are neighbourhoods of Brooklands, and Shaugh nessy Heights in the part of the North End , which are all in need of some form of assistance now. I am hoping that before this term of government is up that we will have initiated this revitaliza tion program in those neighbourhoods as well to help them along. Mr. Deputy Speaker, one of my main hopes for the next four years is that in this term of office this government will be able to move towards a compr ehensive and a new water policy for the Province of Manitoba.

During the election campaign, and it also was mentioned in the Thro ne Speech, we had a commitment for the Red and Assiniboine Rivers over the next 10 years for a revitalization of those rivers. lt's not just restoration of river banks, it's an important 189 part of it, for sure; but the most important part, in my mind, is cleaning up the quality of the water, getting rid of the raw sewage that still ends up in our river systems.

I am not speaking simply of the Red and the Assiniboine but the smaller tributaries as well and other rivers that suffer some difficulties further in the south and the west of the province. In particular, the Souris River is another river that's threatened not this time by the Garrison Diversion project but by another project in Saskatchewan which could have, I think, a detrimental impact on the quality of the water in the Souris River basin. In looking for a new water policy for the province as a whole, I would hope that we would have the active co-operation and participation of members opposite. MR. H.

ENNS: I think you're going to get it. MR. D. SCOTT: And the Member for Lakeside says that we are going to get it. I am glad to see he's still here. A MEMBER: And he's awake to! MR. D. SCOTT: And that he's awake, although he doesn't very often catch too many catnaps in here I don't believe; he's too active a debater and a listener for that. A MEMBER: With that speech you'd put .. . to sleep. MR. D. SCOTT: Yes, I possibly could. But, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in setting up some principles that we should be following in developing a new water polic y, and I'm not speaking simply of rivers and streams but also of groundwater and our lakes in this province, I think that it would do us a great amount of good to look to other countries that are northern countries that are in our, say, north of 50, north of 60 parallels, areas that have severe winters, similar climatic conditions to what we do.

I think we can gain a tremendous amount by looking to the Scandi navian countries and what they have done in an effort to clean up their waterways in Norway, in Sweden, and in Finland in particular. The Finns, several years ago, started to addr ess this problem. I would like to maybe just quote a couple of their general objectives that they have set up for their document which was put out in 1974, and it was for 10 years ending in'85, called "The Principles of Water Pollution" that show up to 1985 for Finland, publ ished by the National Board of Waters of that country.

They talk of their general objectives - I think they are really admirable objectives - objectives that we should be trying to base in new policies that we develop as well. I will just read them to you. One of the first, under the general objectives, they say "Operations polluting the water and other activities affecting this condition must be adapted to the natural equal system." They recognize they live in a northern clima te. They recognize that waters in the northern clima te can be under far greater stress than they can in other cli mates because of the amount of ice cover in the winter in particular.

They also call for the necessity ". . . and wasteful use of water resources must be avoided and hazardous

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 effects upon the water prevented ." These are statements of principle. But the most interesting

part I find of them is that they have been acting on them very very effectively. To go on, it says, "Effects on the waters must be examined as a whole, striving to minimize detrimental effects on the waters in the rest of the environment.

Likewise, operations affecting the waters must be examined from the point of view of economy as a whole, taking all the cost and benefits into account." They talk about the aesthetic aspects of water - "the healthiness and pleasantness of waters as an environment must be guaranteed" - something we have ignored until recent times virtually comp letely, and the aesthetic qualities of the water. If you protect the asethetic qualities of the water, you will have the rest of your concerns taken care of because you cannot have an aesthetically pleasing slough, it's just not possible.

In the last one, that I think is very appropriate for us who live in the southern part of the province, at least a far dryer clima te than they do, it states that, and I quote, "The needs for using water must be within the limits that nature imposes." We have at some time, in our cultural practices, we have got to recognize that water is not an infinite resource. We have to recogn ize that the water that we exist on has not necessarily been here for eons of time. lt is replenished, but if you extract that water, if you drain a lake, the lake does not come back, the lake is exhausted.

If you take a water policy based, as we had some people a few years ago, when we were discussing water rights legislation, that wanted to set up irrigation systems not on the capacity of the river to supply water but on the capacity of their pumps to pump the water, I think one has a profoundly wrong attitude towards developing any kind of a sensible water policy. We can look to other examples; some of them have been really catastrophic in past years. Our neighbours to the south always talk about a shortage of water.

They don't have a shor tage of water but they have a gross misuse of water by trying to build up, be it agriculture - it is by far the largest use of water - in very arid, semi-desert conditions. The heat may be there, but if the water is not there you cannot necessarily sustain a long-lasting agricultural economy on just heat alone. They have run into difficulties in southern California, in particular, but also in Colorado and other areas along the Colorado River, where they started with some power dams and some irrigation dams back over 100 years ago. They now have 57, I believe, dams on that river.

The river no longer even reaches its mouth in Mexico on the Gulf of Baja. They lose something like 10 ,000 acres a year of land that they brought into cultivation; is now lost to cultivation because of excess salinity in the soil because the irrigating waters they were using are getting saltier and saltier.

To try and rectify the problem to some extent they have built - again a technological solution - a nuclear power desalination plant on the Mexican border, with the United States, at the Colorado River to try to get water clean enough with a low enough salt level that the few miles remaining in the river before it just disappears into its old riverbed , miles and miles and miles from the mouth of the river, so the farmer on the 190 Mexican side can at least have some water that can be used for irrigation purposes. it's an example, and just one example of thousands of examples of terrible misuse of technological projects - be it agriculture or fishing - I just clipped one out last week out of a paper written by a gentleman from the Washington Post; it was printed in the Manch ester Guardian Weekly. lt talked about a situation where the Norwegians, in assistance to the Lake Turkana in Kenya, the Norwegions saw the bountiful fish in Lake Turkana and they thought it would make a good stable base of income for the people living in that general area MR.

J. DOWNEY: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, C. Santos: A point of order is being raised. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Deputy Speaker, it was mentioned earlier in the day, as Native Affairs critic to complim ent the Minister of Native Affairs for his moved to the second bench and I'm sure that before long he will have advanced to the first benc h. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The member knows that is not a point of order. The Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in this situation they built a multimillion dollar fish plant on the side of this lake only to find that soon after the fish plant was finished it went through a periodic cycle and the lake was now essentially, not drained, but dried up because of natural conditions that exist in the area and the whole thing had to be shut down. lt was a poorly conc eived project based on the notion that water will always be there.

Some members may wonder why I am trying to make reference to some things as far off as perhaps the Colorado River system and as to Lake Turkana in Kenya but they have a very direct relationship to us in Canada when we are moving in to talk about free trade, when we have as a person who is Canada's chief negotiator, a Mr. Simon Reisman, the di stinguished former Deputy Minister of Finance in this coun try, but also an active proponement in the sale of water from Canada to the United States and I think it is really a hair-brained scheme.

Of all of the schemes that have been cooked up, now we have Premier Boura ssa of Quebec wanting to build a dam across the James Bay and divert the water that flows into the James Bay south into the Great Lakes and into the U.S. and to the Mid west.

We have another scheme called the NAWAPA, which stands for the North American Water and Power Alliance - not just a multi billion - but tens and perhaps even into hun dreds of billions of dollars of money in a totally wasteful scheme to try and reverse rivers flowing into the Arctic, send them south back through the Rocky Mountain trench, some 800 kilometres long, and then into the Midwest and even into Mexico. I mean, the lack of even consideration of the economic impact this would have on our country and as far as I am concerned

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 more importantly, is the environmental impact it would have by reversing the flow of those streams on the Arctic as well as to the Canadian landscape. Some of these schemes, and we have more and more proponents now talking of wanting to sell water to the U.S. - it's not a renewable resource. Like I said earlier, once you empty a lake out, it's gone. The lake levels of the Gr eat Lakes, in particu lar, the levels have fluctuated just 10, 15 feet per eons of time.

There's very little of the total volume of water that flows into them on an annual basis; and for people who want to turn around and start pumping billions of dollars or billions of gallons of water from here to an area which is not short of water but is shor t of water because of their policies - their cultural policies - of trying to adapt essentially an economy , a water-based economy on an area that doesn't have any water. lt really doesn't make any sense.

They should realign their policies instead of coming to Canada and for Canadians who think they're going to make money off this scheme of diverting rivers and pumping water by the acre foot into the U.S., it is sheer lunacy to think tha we, as Canadians. can try and build any kind of an economy on the basic premise that we are just going to be shipping out more resources. We are running down on our minerals; the oil price has gone down so it's not quite as attractive any more. But here, what are some of the great economic minds or Conservative think-tanks coming up with? Start shipping out your water.

Pretty soon they're going to want our land as well. When they want the land, that perhaps is when the Member for Lakeside would be happiest, to have some sort of not simply an economic union but a political union and several of the other members opposite may be more satisfied with that. I certainly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, want nothing to do with it whatsoever. In the Throne Speech, there is one item I would like to draw particular attention to, Mr. Deputy Speak er, that I am very pleased is in there and This is the question of the elimination of liens against people who have been or are on social assistance.

I think it is exceptionally cruel for us to ever contemplate the idea that when a person loses their place in the economic mainstream, is laid off or for whatever other reasons ends up on their own without economic self-support available to them, that we then end up putting a lien against that person's name, let alone their property, so that if they are ever able to get back on their feet again the first thing the government does is to come and say, give us our money back.

That's a social cost, it's a cost to the overall society and it's not something that should be put upon the backs of the people who can least afford it. I had a cons tituent who came to me some time ago with this situation. She had been, some 10 years ago, on social assistance for a period of about a year or year-and-a-half under very trying family circumstances for her. She then got herself some decent training, got a decent job, started raising herself and her small child, got to the point where she felt she could buy a house.

She went out to buy a house, a small modest home, and before she could register that property she had to sign a lien to the City of Winnipeg that they had dibs on $2,500 or $2,700 of that house, then if she ever lost that house the City of Winnipeg would get 191 the first $2,700 off it. lt think it is absolutely foolish for our society to permit a situation to exist where an individual can have a lien put against their names, let alone against their properties, when they are down and out. Some of the members opposite may take somewhat like to it.

I'm glad to see the Member for Minnedosa is agreeing with this policy. it's not often I have his agre ement, espe cially as a former banker (Interjection) - Retired banker, sorry; he's mentally still a banker. I think, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that we need a comp lete re-look and rethinking of much of our social policy and social assistance programs. To me, one of the most debilitating things a person can have is for them to end up on social assistance, to lose the ability and the self-respect of daily tasks, of an income-earning ability. it is exceptionally debilitating to those persons.

Simply paying money to somebody to stay out of the work force, which in large measure was a major part of the social assistance policy as it has evolved over time - it is inconceivable for me to think that we can give those people any kind of an opportunity to move back into the mainstream of economic society by paying them to stay home and do nothing. We should be opening up opportunities, be it through training, be it through work activities, even through volunteer coordination and using some of the people in providing valuable volunteer services assisted by the state.

We should certainly be doing everything we can to encourage their re-entry into the mainstream of society, because that is where they will pay back their obligations to society through becoming contributors overall, through paying taxes like the rest of the people in a soci ety, not through a system where as soon as a person gets back on their feet you go after them to try and col lect what is conside red to be a past debt. Something mentioned in the Throne Speech as well, Madam Speaker, is fair reference given to the issue of free trade.

I note that the chief U.S. trade negotiator says that Manitoba or Canada does not have a ghost of a chance without having concessions from the provinces, that free trade is dead without concessions from the provinces. Well the United States is going to find out what a federated state really is or a confederation of Canada. They are going to find that, in this cou ntry, we have varying jurisdictions, and the provinces have a lot of responsibility for social policy as well as the Government of Canada. The Government of Canada is interlinked in those through funding mechanisms.

They are trying to extract themselves more and more from the funding obli ga tions they have ha d in the past, but the Government of Canada is up against one heck of a fight. I'm proud to see my government leading that fight in this country to make sure that the federal share of the costs of our programs is sustained, and not continue to be eroded as it will be under Bill C-96.

We have had many promises from the members opposite, and it's quite astounding to me, Madam Speaker, that the members opposite go into an election campaign and offer to the public something in the vicinity of $300 million in election promises, and then come into this House and the first thing they start addr essing is deficits and government spending. When they were going to put in $1 50 million more into social

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 spending - and I think it was a slick slick move by them in the election campaign to try essentially to say we're going to buy you with your own money, but don't think that we're going to ever take away any social programs. They made statements of having addi tional commi tments to social programs, but watch, Madam Speaker , when you see what happens in the time, in the next couple of years in this Legislature.

Watch how they will get up and they'll want to spend more and more money time and time again, and yet they will scream and they will holler at any incr ease in taxes; they will scream and holler at any cutbacks; they will scream and holler to the province because we have a deficit, even if the deficit goes down or if the deficit goes up any amount at all. They will be the first ones to complain. But the public of Manitoba knows very well you can't have it both ways, ladies and gentlemen. If you want to become a main participant in the development of government policy, I welcome that.

I welcome that with open arms. But I do have great misgivings of a party that can come forward in an election campaign and promise $10 0 million or $1 20 million worth of tax cuts and another $200 million worth of expenditures, and then carp about deficits, about incr eased taxes and cutbacks. Madam Speak er, in conclusion, I hope that this next Legislature will be a very productive Legislature, this new Legislature. I welcome the participation of all members of the House for a more active participation, for a greater role for the individual members. I hope that we can accomplish that.

But when doing that, we have to accomplish it responsibly by acting in a resp onsi ble man ner ourselves , and by acting as ind ividuals and as political parties within this House. Madam Speaker, I thank you for my time allotted to reply to the Addr ess from Her Honour. I do welcome all new members to the House and look forward to four good years of government before the next election. Thank you very much. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Madam Speak er, I too want to congratulate you on your appointment to the hig hest position of this Assembly.

I believe you will fulfill your duties with dignity and honour. Madam Speak er, I wish you well. lt is indeed an honour for me as the newly elected member for La Verendrye to speak in this Assembly. I congr atulate the new and re-elected members on both sides of the House. lt is apparently tradition that new members will give some backg rou nd of them selves and of their cons tituency but, before I do that, Madam Speaker, on behalf of the constituency of La Verendrye, I wish to pay tribute to the former Member for La Verendrye, Mr.

Bob Banman, for his 13 years of service that he so loyally dedicated to this con stituency and also to the province. May we value his contribution, and apply it to help make this province a better place to live. I wish him well in his private endeavours. The constituency of La Verendrye must be one of the best in the province, not only because it is P.C. but 192 because its bound aries start three miles east of No. 59 Highw ay. 1t is approximately 21 miles wide, and then all the way to the Ontario border on the east.

Steinbach is the largest urban centre in my riding. lt is also referred to as the automobile city. The town has a population of 8,500, which is surrounded by a highly diversified farming region. Steinbach has a trading population of approximately 50,000. lt provides the community with education, recreation and health care services. lt is unfortunate that the Minister of Health isn't in the House at the present, because we are still waiting for the expansion of that hospital. Steinbach is also ... MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Education. HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Sp eaker, as a matter of information to all members and certainly new members, it is unparliamentary to refer to a member's absence or presence in the House. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Minis ter is certainly co rrect, and I would like to add my caution to the new member. I'm sure that in the whole four years, after being cautioned in his first speech, it won't happen again. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Steinbach is also the major employer in the southeast.

Its industries manufacture windows, millwork, boats, printing material, clothing, con crete products and lawn and garden equipment. The latest industry to add to this list is Bycyrus Blade, which is under construction at the present. lt is this town that I had the privilege of serving on council for 12 years, Madam Speaker, and of which the last six, I have been Mayor. The Mennonite Village Mus eum is also situated at Steinbach. lt attracts approxi mately 50,0 00 people annually. This is, for southeastern Manitoba, the largest tourist attraction that we have. I believe we must foster these attractions.

After all, it is the existing facilities that have and are allowing Manitoba to enjoy the spinoff that it generates and attracted the people in the first place. Madam Speaker, to the east of my constituency we have Falcon Lake with all its year-round recre ational facilities like golfing, boating, downhill skiing, cross­ country skiing, horseback riding and much more. This has attracted people to establish small businesses to serve many tourists that come year round to enjoy the wonderful outdoors.

Madam Speaker, we as elected members, must help foster and encourage this kind of private enterprise and support the existing tourist attractions. A portion of this facil ity, namely the downhill skiing, is being threatened; the Department of Natural Resources is recommending closure. I want to read you an

article out of the Free Press, March 29, 1986: "There can be no doubt that a commercial downhill ski operation does not fit well into the thinking of those who are at present in control of Manitoba provincial parks. Downhill skiers simply do not rate the same consideration as backpackers. People who chose to ski have just as much right to consideration from park authorities as those who

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 choose to enjoy the park in a manner more in keeping with the thoughts of the bureauc racy. The skiers do deserve straight answers when dealing with the government and realistic accounting of the costs of maintaining their particular choice in park recr eation. The skiers who use Falcon Lake are getting neither equal consideration nor realistic acc ounting.

The bureaucracy has seen fit to keep the future of Falcon ski hill in doubt from year to year, an action which effectively di scourages any private investment in improvements to that hill." Madam Speaker, I now want to go to a circular that was circula ted to all party leaders before the election from the Mani toba Government Empl oyees' Associa tion.

The question is: "If elected to office, will you privatize the management and development of any one of Manitoba's provincial parks?" The First Min ister then stated: "No." The second question: "If elected to office, would your government maintain the provincial parks funding level at the rate of inflation?" "Funding for parks would be maintained to ensure our present level of servic e." This was his reply again. Then east along the No. 1, approximately 50 miles, we have Hadashville, and it is noted for the Strawberry Festival, I'm sure, as most of us know.

Other parts of the constituency are communi ties like Ste. Anne, LaBroquerie, Kleefeld and New Bothwell. These are smaller commun ities, but nevertheless much dependent on roads and proper drainage. A number of roads were under construction five years, but the Government of the Day decided at the time to put them on hold. I truly wish that we would be able to reinstate them into the program for 1986. Madam Speaker, this government is failing to take any real action to deal with the serious problems which exist in the agricultural sector in Manitoba to date.

Our assessment inequities must be add ressed by this government. The assessment on land pays school taxes and the homeowner is getting a rebate to the extent that some pay virtually no taxes at all. Our party ind icated we would remove 50 percent of the educational tax on agricultural land immediately, then review the structure. The Minister of Agriculture indicates how much he is helping the farmers.

The figures prove it - four times as many farm bankruptcies in the past four years. lt is a combination of all these taxes, Madam Speaker, like the payr oll, sales tax, and mo re, that dr ain thousands of dollars each year from the individual small farm and small business. Madam Speaker, let us review Manitoba Hydro, a Manitoba resource which should be there for Manitoba. The rates have increased tremendously and will increase even more. Does that attract industry for jobs in Manitoba? Does that help keep Manitoba competitive? The demand billing for hydro you don't use?

A scheme to generate revenue, once again, where does that leave the small business and the small industries? Madam Speaker, that does not attract business and create jobs. To compound the problem, the community which supplies recreational facilities also is on demand billing. For example, an arena which is possibly used for half the year has to basically pay the rate for the full year. This, on the smaller communities, puts a tremendous strain on their financial budget each year. 193 My question is, how much does our hydro cost the people of Manitoba?

This surplus hydro, which is paid and not used, then is sold at a loss to the U.S. who are in direct competition with Manitoba indus tries. Hydro is a Manitoba resource and, in my opinion, should be used to relieve the burden of taxes for Manitoba and not create the burden. We must not sell off the resources cheapl y so as ind ustries may locate downstream and not create jobs in Manitoba. Madam Speaker, records indic ate Manitoba has 22,000 more unemployed today than five years ago. Jobs are most essential and jobs for the young people must be provided in this province.

We need desperately to create jobs that will help pay our long-range debt. We mus t suppor t private enterprise in creating productive, longlasting jobs so our young people can maintain their pride and dignity. Manitoba has a reliable labour force. If we control our input costs we can be competitive with any province in the marketplace; but the province has one of the highest debts for capita; then compounded, also, with the different taxes, like sales taxes and other taxes, does not allow us in many cases to be competitive.

We must be competitive and make Manitoba attractive to investors, then we will attract industry and create permanent jobs, in light of what has happened in the past four years, when our per capita debt has doubled, or increased by more than 100 percent.

That, Madam Speaker, I would reco mmend to this government we do a study on whether it would be appropriate to introduce legislation to abolish deficit spending on the provincial level, or at least set a limit, a guideline, that the people of Manitoba have an idea as to how much spending or how much into deficit this province will be within the next couple of years. I would like the Minister of Finance to explain to the people of Manitoba how he will remove the large burden of debt on each individual in the province.

Madam Speaker, I had intentions of talking about my constituency only, until I heard the Minister of Labour give his speech last Thu rsday. That's when I realized that I would not do justice to my electorate nor myself if I would not, in some small way, express my dissatisfaction. I won't read his speech because it's on the record. I would suggest to the Minister of Labo ur, after his remarks from Korea and Japan how labour is misused and mistreated, that the Province of Mani1oba possibly put a grant in place and send him one way to those countries to correct the labour injustices in Korea and Japan.

Obviously he is more concerned about the Korea and Japan situation than Manitoba. When the Minister of Labour has corrected the injustices in Korea and Japan, may we recommend him to Cuba? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, would the honourable member please move his papers from the microphone. it's cutting off the microphone; don't get them so close. lt won't get on Hansard. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Madam Speaker, I can give them a copy of it. My parents fled a socialistic country 56 years ago. That country has the richest soil in the world and the most of it, but to this day it cannot feed its own people.

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 lt is unfortunate that this government has withheld information before the election. lt is unfortunate that the First Minister has made statements, never with the intention of carrying them forward. I want to go back to another one of the questions in the Manitoba Government Employees' Association: "If you are elected, would you 'contract out' any worker services now performed by Provincial Government employees? If yes, in what areas?" The First Minister indicated no, he would not. He would not contract out.

Then to answer that in more detail, "We believe it is more appropriate to use government employees than private contractors. For example in 1982 we converted a numb er of clean ing contr acts for government buildings from private companies to government employees." Well, Madam Speaker, right after the election - I want to read it to you - first tenders that were in the Carillon News, right after the election: "Tenders. Notice of Tender. Tenders are invited for the maintenance and operation of the Pinegrove Halt Rest Area, Whitemouth River Wayside and the Dawson Trail Wayside. Deadlines for tenders is 4:30 p.m.

Friday, April 4, 1986. Further information is available." lt is unfortunate that this Socialistic Government has members that will condemn almost everything that could make a profit but be the first at the trough. This weekend has revealed a lot and I wonder how much more will come to the surface shor tly. As a new member to this Assembly, it is unfortunate that these corrupt actions are the first that surfaced from this government. lt is a government that was not governing the people but was governing to get re­ elected only.

We, Madam Speaker, need to bring back into this Assembly, honesty, integrity, trust and respect. Madam Speaker, my colleagues and I will do our utmost to achieve this. Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate our Leader on the way he condu cted the election campaign. I am proud to be a member of his team and I'm sure the public will not be betrayed again. On behalf of the constituency of La Verendrye, I, with my colleagues, will ques tion, scrut ini ze, and recommend to the Government of the Day what we feel Manitoba people are entitled to receive and deserve.

In closing as a new member to this Assembly, I con gra tulate my col leagues for the support, coopera tion, and dedication they have given me to date and together we will strive to give the people of Manitoba a better government. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourabl e Min ister of Northern Affairs. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speak er, I am pleased to have an opportunity to participate in the Throne Speech Debate. As is customary, I want to offer you my congratulations.

I know that as caucus chairperson you quite often gave us good direction and I look forward to you giving us good di rec tion and leadership whenever it is required. I do not envy your position, but the direction you have given us to this point shows the training that you have received previously is going to give us good direction throughout this next Session of the Legislature. I would like to congratulate the Mover and the Seconder of the Throne Speech, the Mover from Ellice 194 and the Seconder from Kildonan. I am sure we will be hearing from these members for many years to come.

I would also like to congratulate all the members of the 33rd Session of the Legislature for being re-elected and I especially want to welcome the new members. lt is refreshing to hear many of the ideas and ideals that are coming forward from the new members. I look forward to implementing some of the suggestions that have been coming forward from both sides of the House.

I think that we ought to listen carefully because some of the ideas that they have have merit and we should be acting on them whenever it is within our financial possibility of moving on some of these suggestions that they have been bringing forward. I want to also share that I have always been impressed with the unselfish commitment of the members of the Legislature when it comes to dealing in the House. They have always made the concerns of their constituents the first concern and they have continued to give us that type of leadership that is required in this House.

I am espe ciall y pleased to welcome into new membership the Member for Swan River, which happens to be the constituency where I was born and raised and where my family was also - five childr en were born and raised in the Swan River constituency and I'm pleased that the voters of Swan River have finally become politically enlightened and have extended that bound ary - the orange boundary line - they extended it to take in the Swan River constituency and I'm sure it's going to ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. H. HARAPIAK: . . . remain an orange part of the map for many years to come.

I would also like to congratulate the Member for Swan River for becoming the Minister of Natural Resources. I look forward to working cooper atively with him, as thfQSrtment of Natural Resources and the Department of Northern Affairs cross bound aries in many areas. Of course, I know that all the Cabinet Ministers work very cooperatively and their first concerns are the concerns of their constituencies, not personal concerns. Madam Speaker, I would also like to thank the people of The Pas, the constituency of The Pas, who have once again given me a very strong support, as they did in the last election.

Madam Speaker, the constituency of The Pas is a very diverse constituency where people are involved in many different trades and occupations such as Manitoba Foresty, the complex which is called Manfor. I'm sure that most members are aware that there has been extensive renovations done on Manfor in the last couple of years.

We see the fruits of that right now, Madam Speaker, where the people, the management, the workers are cooperating, are working cooperatively to turn that company around and the markets are improving at this time, so it is clear that with the direction they are going in now and the improved market conditions, Manfor will be operating at a profitable level within the next short period of time. I'm sure that the members are pleased to hear that. In my constituency, Madam Speaker, we also have many commercial fishermen and presently they are

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 going through the same type of difficulty that the farming community is going through. They are caught in the same cost-price squeeze that the farming community is caught in and I am sure that with some of the assistance that we're coming up with as a government, that commercial fishermen will continue to be a very important part of the industry in Northern Manitoba. Madam Speaker, there are not many people that recognize the agricultural communi ty that exists in Nor thern Mani toba.

I know that there are a few members opposite who have gone to The Pas and have realized and looked at the farmland that exists there. I know that one, as the former Minister of Agriculture has been not only to the Pasquia Valley, which is the farmland itself, but he has had an opportunuity to go to the Saskeram which has a lot of potential, not only for the farming community but for the wildlife as well.

I think that we have shown with the cooperation that has gone on between the members of The Pas Indian Band and the Wildlife Association and the farming association that they can work cooperatively and deve lop the land to take ad vantage of all the opportunities that are there. The Pasquia Valley at this time is having more agricultural land brought into production by a drainage scheme which is part an ERDA Agreement, which is bringing more farmland into production.

I think it's the direction that we have to move in, because the agricultural base has to be expanded in order to attract some of the necessary suppor t systems that are so necessary for an agricultural community to exist. We presently have some fertilizer suppl iers located in The Pas, and we are hoping that there will be some machi nery dealers locating. Because of the incr eased numb er of acres in the The Pas area, we're hoping that this will attract some machinery dealers that will provide some of the necessary support systems that are necessary for the agricultural community.

Madam Speaker, during the last period of time, we have also had some demonstration programs that were delivered by the Pasquia Grasslands Association. They have had a demonstration project which has put some research projects that have been carried on in other parts of the province. Now they've been delivered in The Pas area, which shows that it's possible to finish cattle on grass. No w they'r e ha ving another demonstration project which is going to show the farmers the benefits of breeding young heifers to calf at two years of age, rather than at three years of age.

So there has been a lot of research carried out in this area, but now it is extremely important that the demonstration projects are also carried out. I know that there are a large num ber of farmers who are participating in this project, so I look forward to going out there and seeing how the demonstration is being carried on. Madam Speaker, I also have a large Native population in my constituency, and I want to share with you an event which took place last year.

There was an agreement that was signed by the three Band leaders in my constituency, the Moose Lake Band, The Pas Indian Band and the Chemawawin Band, and also the communi ty councils of the areas involved, which have signed an agreement to stop hunting moose in the area because of the decline in the moose population. I want to share that hunting is a right that the Native people 195 have. They have a right to hunt for food, and they have voluntarily given up this right in order to show their responsibility as a people, to show that they are concerned with the moose population in the area.

They are participating in voluntary programs which are dealing with the declining moose population, so there will be no hunting in Area 8 in The Pas area. I am pleased that the aboriginal people are showing that they are responsible, they are conservationists, and they want to preserve the moose for future generations. I am pleased with this. I also want to share that the Native people are cooperating in the area of the education of their people. They have come in and made presentations on how improvements can be made in that area. They've also come and made suggestions in the area of housing.

There was a housing project buil t in Easterville last year, which almost all the material req uir ed for the hous e was taken right from the surrounding neighbourhood. There's a project right now from the communi ty of Cormorant where they want to go back to their traditional housing needs, and that was log housing. They're willing to supply all the labour that is required, and all they want is some assistance for a sawmill to come in there and saw the logs that are required for the homes.

So I think there are some real opportunities in there, and they show that they are willing to get in there and do their bit and supply the homes for their families. In speaking of the last election, Madam Speaker, I am pleased with the support that all the northern M LA's received. I believe that Northern Manitoba has once more confirmed their choice that they made in 1981 to strongly support the New Democrats in their last election.

I was surprised, during the last campaign, on how often my constituents and other Northerners had mentioned the previous admin istration when it came to speaking about services they received or lack of services they received. The member is presently no longer here, but the point was quite often raised that the previous Mi nister of Northern Affairs said that welfare was better than some of the work projects that were being provided for No rtherners.

I want you to know that the communities have strongly suppor ted us, because they see the difference in the levels of service that have been delivered by this administration compared to what was delivered under the previous administration. I know that under the MCAP Project, there are projects del ivered throughout the North with long-lasting infrastructure which will be delivered to the communities, and also there were many jobs created for the people.

Whenever there was an opportunity for job crea tion, the people willingly got off the welfare rolls and participated in any jobs that were provided to the commu nity. Madam Speaker, I look forward to the next four years. The peoples of Northern Manitoba have, once again, given us a strong mandate to represent them, and we want to tell you that we have delivered on the projects. Northern Manitobans want job creation and economic development, and I think that Limestone Project is creating jobs for Northerners.

Also there are many spin offs for the Northerners, including Na tive communities who were often ignored in past Hydro development projects.

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 Madam Speaker, I am pleased that the Member for Rupertsland has been appointed to Cabinet with the responsibility for Native Affairs. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to travel throughout Northern Manitoba as a member of the Northern Working Group.

We travelled around to meet with more than 30 communities where we met with over 60 dif ferent groups, and where they gave us directions as to how they would see some imp rovements made so the people of No rthern Manitoba wou ld have an opportu nity for the employment at Limestone which they didn't have an opportunity to participate in previously. We were pleased at the direction that the Mem ber for Rupertsland has given us, because he has that understanding of northern people.

His understanding is that people need a better referral system, because they quite often are not available or there are no telephones available in the community for getting calls to Limestone opportunities. We have worked with not only the Northerners, but the CIC to develop a better calling procedure so that the people of Nor thern Manitoba wou!d have an opportunity at Limestone. This govern �,, '•r>t, through the Northern Working Group, has earned out an extensive consultation process with all Northerners, not only with the Native people but also with Norman Development Agreement.

Their membership is participating in the Limestone Development. They have also taken advantage of some of the opportunities that have come forward. Madam Speak er, one of the things that we found when we went out around the communities was that there was a lack of training. There was an order-in­ preference cl ause when the pre vious hydro developments were taking place, but the people were not trained fo; taking advantage of them.

That is why we have creater1 the Limestone Training Agency, which is training the people of Northern Manitoba, and the contractors are p:c:cticipating in this training process as welL They are reldling what type of a worker they want coming out of the Training Authority, and many of the people are getting jobs. We recognize that all of the people who are applying for employment will not be able to take advantage of the Limestone training opportunities because there are more applications - there are over 5,000 applicants for the jobs that are there.

Even at the height of the employment, there will be 1, 800 people hired there, so it is not possible to take on all the people who are seeking employment at the area. But I guess we, as a government, feel that we are meeting some of the needs that are out there, and I guess quite often we hear people being very critical of the training program that is being delivered.

One person who has been very critical of the Limestone Training Authority went out to Northern Manitoba to see it first­ hand, and although this particular person isn't very supportive of our causes often, on this occasion he was, and I am referring to Fred Cleverley, who is a writer with the Free Press. Fred went to Northern Manitoba and he had a tour of the facilities. lt's unfortunate that some of the people who are skeptical of the results of the training that is going on at Limestone wouldn't take the opportunity to go out there and have a look at the training and the results that are coming through.

I would like to quote Fred Cleverley's

article which was carried on December 18 and 19 in the Winnipeg 196 Free Press. I would recommend that members go back and read the articles published by Fred Cleverley in the Winnipeg Free Press. The titles of the articles were "L imestone works smack on schedule" and "Job training gets results." They were very informative articles, and I'd like to quote a bit from these two articles.

"lt is turning out that gradua tes who are being hired at Limestone, and appreciate the training they have received, and what the program has done is to prepare the Native Northerners for work which the rest of Manitoba will recognize as productive in a southern white-dominated society." And these people are getting the jobs; they are getting the opportunities. They are finally getting an opportunity to take advantage of some of the training that has taken place.

Madam Speaker, not only are Northerners taking advantage of the Limestone Training Authority, or the Limestone construction, but there are also other small firms throughout Manitoba who are experiencing the spinoff effects of the Limestone production. lt seems that almost every week you pick up a paper and there is some economic institution pointing out some of the benefits that are coming from the hydro construction site. Just recently, there was an

article in the "Royal Bank" which shows that the Manitoba economy is probably one of the soundest of any of the economies of all of the provinces in Canada; they are showing that we have a sound performance and good leadership coming from this government, and Lime stone is providing much of the interest for this. I would like to take time out to comm end my colleague, the Member for Transcona, who has provided strong leadership in regard to the Limestone training.

I know that the Member for Transcona has not only provided us with strong leadership in the negotiations that have taken place with the United States power companies, but also with the training that has been taking place in Thompson.

He has provided strong leadership in this area, and I know that he is also coming forward with legislation where 50 percent of the profit of the sales that are going to be flowing from the generating stations will be coming to the people of Manitoba, and it will be used not only for maintaining our hydro rates, which are presently the lowest in all of Canada, but would also be used for a heritage fund for Manitobans in the future. Ma dam Speak er, when one thinks of No rthern Manitoba, as I mentioned previously, one does not think of agriculture.

There are many agricultural operations and the potential there is for many more opportunities in the Carrot River Valley. Madam Speaker, I grew up on a farm as well, so I realize that the farming community is going through some difficult financial times. They are caught in that sque eze where the operations are expensive, yet the production in their products has gone down. I know that in the Throne Speech there was emphasis on our agricultur al renewal and Farm Start, Farm Aid Programs, which are going to be of great assistance to the farming people in the Province of Manitoba.

We realize that agriculture is the backbone of our economy, and when the agricultural community is suffering, then we as a province are suff ering. So I look forward to the assistance that we are going to be providing to the people of Manitoba who are involved in the agricultural area.

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 Ma dam Spea ker, the Port of Churchill is a commitment that our government has been working hard on ever since we formed government. I know that it's strongly related to the agricultural community. Recently, I had an opportunity to addr ess the Hudson Bay Route Assoc iation, an organization that is composed of farmers and busi ness people from across the Prairies who are more committed to the Port of Churchill than some of our colleagues from across the way, who have not recognized the benefits of a strong, viable Port of Churchill.

Some of the members across the way have said that, although we recogn ize the Port of Churchill will be needed years down the line, it's a luxury that we cannot afford at this time. If we close the infrastructure down now, I am not sure where it'll be years down the line when we will require it. When I was addr essing the Hu dson Bay Route Association, I was pleased to be there, because not only have I been a member of the farming commun ity, I have also worked as a railroader.

As a railroad engineer, I have had an opportunity to work in Northern Mani toba where I recog nize that because of the relatively level terrain of Northern Manitoba, we are able to haul much larger tonnage than they can move to either the east or the west. I think it's important that we continue to give strong support to the Port of Churchill so we recognize - even the Opposition members recognize - we'll be needing it as an alternative - not as an alternative, but it complements the other shipping ports that exist in the east and west.

While I am speaking on this, I want to commend my colleague, the Member for Dauphin, for the strong leadership that he has given us in the Port of Churchill. Madam Speaker, the Throne Speech also commits the government to greater fairness and an improved quality of life for all of Manitoba.

I am proud of my ties with the New Democratic Party and I am proud of the ideals we stand for, ideals which have concerns for the betterment of human conditions, concerns for the equality of opportunity, and concerns for the quality of life in family and commun ity, rather than in the self­ centred concerns in which much of our world is caught up in this materialistic world. We are concerned for the quality of life for all of the family.

In Northern Manitoba, we have seen this commitment to our fellow beings carried out in a purchase of a life flight or a new ambulance service which is going to be giving greater access to people who are in need of emergency service. I have had an opportunity to see this new air flight when it was brought into Northern Manitoba, to show the people of the North, the nursing staff, the doctors of all Northern Manitoba, had an opportunity to give input to Life Flight service and it is the first dedicated aircra ft of its type in Manitoba.

I know the people who came out to see the facility when it was brought out were very pleased with the facility that's going to be and the area has been extended to where it will serve, it is serving all of the areas of Manitoba now. So I'm glad that this service has been extended and the people of Manitoba are going to be served. I've already heard of many instances where a life has been saved because of the availability of this Life Flight.

In Swan River recently there was a person who was burnt very badly and they were saved because of the facility being availablef In summ ary, Madam Speaker , I want to be brief because I know there are several members who have 197 not had an opportunity to speak in this Throne Speech and we are running out of time. I just want to support the First Minister in the Throne Speech.

I am proud of the direction the Throne Speech is taking us, and our platform planks very clearly showed what direction we are going, and I am honoured to be abl e to be a part of this gover nmen t which is contributing to the vision that we have as a government, a vision that all Manitobans share with us. Thank you, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. This being my maiden speech, I shouldn't have an objection right at the very beginning, but I do have one to the Member tor Charleswood who suggested I should stand on the books.

I'm not that short. Madam Speaker, I want to wish you well in your duties as Spea ker, and I would suggest that you have performed well up to now - a little shaky this afternoon, but it's been a long weekend. I would also like to congratulate and wish well to all the elected ML A's and to the new Cabinet Ministers and I hope that we'll have a productive season. I have my doubts, but I would hope so. I'm here as the MLA for Portage and with a lot of pride, but I'm also deeply concerned about the future of the constituency and the Province of Manitoba.

As a resident for some 52 years, I've had the opportunity of watching this province develop and grow, but never has this province been in such a moral and economic mess. I would feel much more confident if I were addressing this House from the other side. Madam Speaker, I would like to tell you a little bit about the wonderful constituency of Portage la Prairie. it's consi dered a rural constituency, but about 80 percent of the people live in the City of Portage la Prairie. it's a beautiful city; it's a well treed city; it has a beautiful lake and in the centre we have a nice Island Park.

Portage has an excellent school system and a very effective small city hospital and, thanks to the just retired administrator, Bill Devine, who did such a good job in making this a well-known and well-respected hospital. We also have a very competent professional sector. At this point, Madam Speaker, we have a good service industry, but I stress at this point that the service sector is experiencing extreme stress due to the economic downturn in agriculture.

We will lose some of our service industries and many jobs that they create unless this government stops blaming everyone else for our problems and starts taking positive initiatives. I do not believe they have the imagination or the political will to do this. We have, on the opposite side, unfortunately, a good example of the 'Peter principle' at work. Madam Speaker, Portagers are an ambitious and energetic people. We have a wide range of sports activities. We have just recently completed the Republic of Manitoba Park, an expansive 50-acre park with baseball diamonds, football fields and soccer pitches.

What Portage does not have is a swimming pool. For a city the size of 14, 000, this is a serious shortfall.

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 The Honourable Sterling Lyon had in place plans for a swimming pool. Unfortunately Mr. Lyon was toppled in the next election and the First Min ister, who was the First Minister then, and who still is the First Minister, cancelled that good project for the people of Portage la Pr airie. Madam Speaker , that pool would have been ther apeutic for the residents of the Ma nitoba Development Centre and a healthy recr eational outlet for the citizens of Portage la Prairie. The people of Portage have not forgotten that act of injustice and it sh owed at the polls this year.

We also have a great senior citizens' sector, Madam Speak er. We have Lions Manor , Rotary housing, Elk Oak Tree Towers, a great number of wonderful senior citizens' housing. We also have just recently opened the Herman Prior Centre for the Aged and this is a facility to enable the seniors to get together, interrelate, have activities, or to go for a meal with somebody else, rather than being alone at home. it's kind of unique that they would name it the Herman Prior Centre. This was a gentleman who lived to be just over 100 years old, and at 98 was still entertaining the elderly people.

I will take you now, Madam Speaker, outside of the City of Portage la Prairie to some of the most productive land in the world. We have the river silt soils along the Assiniboine River - just a little bit better than yours, the Member for La Verendrye. lt is here that are grown some of the best vegetables in Canada. Portage la Prairie, Madam Speaker, is the vegetable capital of the Prairies. Vegetables are shipped as far east as Toronto and as far west as the Pacific Ocean. There are hundr eds of jobs created by this industry. The sugar beets are also grown on these soils.

We all know that this sector of agriculture is in a crisis. We also acknowledge that the world markets are largely responsible, but the Federal Government in Ottawa is attempting to put together a program, in co-operation with the provinces, to enable the produc ers to get through this crisis, but the Minister of Agriculture will not attend meetings. He would not attend the one in Alberta and he wouldn't attend the meeting right here in Manitoba. The First Minister says he's standing up for Manitoba.

I say he should tell the Minister of Agriculture to sit down and get working on policy and programs for agriculture. As we go north, Madam Speak er, we enter the Portage plains, renowned for producing the best grain crops and the adaptability to grow almost all the special crops, including potatoes. Crop failures are not known in this part of Canada.

In fact, Madam Speaker, Portage has the most favourable clima te and growing conditions on the Prairies but, while we are not having crop failures, there is a cloud of doom in the form of farm failures, good young farmers on the best land available going bankrupt or just quitting. In fact, Madam Speaker, while I was working on my speech, a farm lady called to enquire about The Farm Land Ownership Act. They had just given up hope of making a decent living on the farm and they had an opportunity of selling it to a resident of Ontario. She is concerned that the act would prevent that sale.

That act, Madam Speaker, The Farm Land Ownership Act, was poorly written and ill-timed. I'm told the other day, while I was out of the House, the Minister of Agriculture 198 said that I supported that program. The program, if there was to be one, should have been before the price of land went up, not now when it is going down. lt was brought in after the price has escalated beyond that which the productivity of land could pay for itself. All the act is doing now is to drive the price of farmland down and lower the equity in the farm to the point where the bank cancels the loan.

Even Herb Schulz, their own beloved member of the Sch reyer party, said it was ridiculous to put in The Farm Land Ownership Act when they did, and he was quite a revered member of their opposition. lt also prevents farmers selling land to Canadians outside of Manitoba, closing the barn door after the cows have gotten out. I wonder if that act would stand up if challenged in the Supreme Court of Canada. The grains and special crop sector of agriculture is in the worst financial crisis, I believe, of all time, Madam Speaker. What is our government doing about it? - very very little.

About all that comes out of the government led by a First Minister who says, agriculture is a priority with him, are crocodile tears and fed bashing. If it wasn't for fed bashing by the government in the last provincial election, they would have had little to say. But unlike the province, the Provincial Government of Manitoba, the Federal Government in Ottawa is listening and is taking action. On May 1, Prime Minister Brian Mulr oney, Finance Min ister Michael Wilson, Joe Clark, Don Mazankowski, John Wise, Jack Murta and Charlie Mayer met in Vancouver with the leaders of 17 farm organizations.

When before has the Prime Mi nister and the Finance Minister and an entourage of prominent M.P.'s met with the farm community? All that Liberal Leader Pierre Trudeau would do was give us the finger. They are listening, but even more significant is the fact that they are acting. We see a sugar beet program in place with little thanks to the province, extremely large and well-timed stabilization payouts, a freeze on grain freight rates, higher domestic wheat prices and a significant incr ease in the fuel tax rebates.

These are just some of the assistance programs put forth by the Federal Government to aid farmers and the NDP shed more tears than fed bash. Madam Speaker, I think it is important to observe what the two provincial jurisdictions to the west of us have done to assist farmers and I would like to remind the members opposite that they are Conservative governments. The Saskatchewan Gove rnm ent Estimates for the the farm programs for 1986 are $1. 5 billion. The reason of the large amount is their low interest money.

These programs include - and the Min ister of Agriculture here could take note - Farm Pur ch ase Program, Farmers' Oil Royalty Refund Program, Livestock Cash Advances, Crop Insur ance Adjustment, Production Loan Guarantees 6 percent money, Agricultural Credit Corporations, a total of $1. 5 billion. Manitoba has a very high school tax. In the last provincial election, we vowed to remove a significant portion of that school tax and that is an option that this government has and could do today.

The Alberta Government also has a very significant program in place, not qu ite as costly as the Sask atchewan one, but for 1985-86 they had estimated

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 to spend $513 million and for this coming year $355 million, Madam Speaker. Those are pretty significant figures and I think our government here could take note and take some action before we lose our farm sector. We now go to an area that is world reknown, an area that is written up by the Audubon Soc iety, the Delta Marsh. We have at Delta, the Delta Waterfall Research Station. This station is also world reknown. People come from all over North America to visit or to conduct research.

The University of Manitoba also have a research station on the marsh. lt is interesting to note that the Delta Research Station is privately funded, but I am sad to say the marsh is dying. lt would take far too long to detail all the problems and the cures, but much of the deterioration began with the controlling of the lake level at Fairford. The Delta station is working on possible solutions to these problems. The marsh is a source of income for many people, people who fish in the winter and work elsewhere in the summer but use the marsh to augment their income in the spring and fall.

Unfortunately muskrat trapping has virtually died out with the deterioration of the marsh. The other major source of income is lodges and guiding during the hun ting seaso n. Un fortun ately this government, who is standing up for Manitoba and the ordinary people, cancelled afternoon hunting lic ences for non-residents. This literally decima ted the lodges and the guiding industry. They did this just to get at a few rich people and they are prepared to sacrifice ordinary people in doing it. People, the little average person who makes a living out of guiding, they took it away from him.

There is a bright light though for Delta and Portage, Ma dam Speaker. The Central Plains Regional Development Corp oration has proposed a wildlife interpretive centre for the marsh. This would be a world class tourist attraction keeping in the guidelines of the new Canada -M anitoba Tour ist Agr eement. This proposal was presented to the Department on May 1 in Portage la Prairie. This project would be an excellent source of summer jobs for students and be an economic boom for the accommodation and service industries in Portage la Prairie and surrounding districts.

I ask the Minister of Business Development and Tourism to give this project favourable consideration. After the long, pleasurable jour ney, it is time for a rest and refreshing swim - and it might be warm enough today even. We could have stopped at Delta Beach, Madam Speaker, where the sand is fine and the water is warm, but I chose St. Ambr ose because of the excellent beach facilities which a lot of Winnipeg people take full advantage of. The employees, most of them who live in St. Ambrose, are very proud of this beach and it is reflected in the way it is maintained, but the beach is only a summer job.

Many are guides during the hunting season but they have lost much of this opportunity. In the winter months, many of the residents of St. Ambrose and Delta were commercial fishermen . Over the last few years, the catch has been so poor that most have quit. The few that fished this last season hardly made expenses. There are many theories why this decline in the catch has occurred, such as an inadequa te fish ladder at Fairford to allow the fish back into Lake Manitoba in the spring.

I ask that the Minister 199 of Na tural Resources takes their plight into consideration, and I also think we need to examine the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board. At one time there was a large sale for rough fish, carp and the white fish in the lake and unfortunately the Marketing Board has lost this sale and when you watch fishermen pulling these fish out of the nets and just throwing them in huge piles on the lake, we see the tremendous waste of food. - (Interjection) - With some exceptions, Madam Speaker, I would agree, but he gets carried away.

Madam Speaker, you will have observed as we drove down Highways 249 and 227 that they are in deplorable condition, but when it is wet they are almost impassable. They are in such poor condition that it is dangerous for farm vehicles and downright treacherous for buses. I pray that we don't have a tragic accident costing the life or serious injury of children. As you know, Madam Speaker, the elevator has been closed down at Oakland and farmers must truck their grain to alternate elevators like the new pool elevator on the main line just east of Portage.

In the summer months, farmers often use rainy days, when they cannot work in the fields, to haul grain. Deterior road conditions often preclude that option. While we are on the sub ject of highways, I would like to mention Highway 240 south of Portage la Prairie. While it is in the constituency of Morris, it is a concern for the merchants of Portage la Prairie because this road at its best is deplorable and for many days this spring impassable therefore preventing or deterring shoppers from coming to Portage. Portage is the shopping centre for people as far south as Highw ay 2.

This road, or should I say trail, has been requested by the city, the R.M. of Portage, the Portage and District Cham ber of Commerce, to be rebuilt. For over 20 years, they have been petitioning governments over Highway 240 and they are frustrated to say the least. I hope that the Highways' budget is not to be reduced this year. If this happens, it will be proof positive that this government has only disdain for rural residents and some of the comments I have heard are not that encoura ging.

Highways are more important than riverbank cleaning and the Member for Ellice, I don't see him here, with his great pride in ... - (Interjection) - he's not here, oh, sorry. Sorr y, I withdraw it. No problem. Actually I was looking around to see if he was sitting talking to some of the