1973 Legislative Session: 2nd Session, 30th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes

only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

THURSDAY, MARCH 15, 1973

Afternoon Sitting

[ Page 1331 ]

CONTENTS

Routine proceedings

An Act for Suits Against the Crown (Bill No. 135) Mr.

Gardom.

Introduction and first reading — 1331

Oral Questions

CUPE strike at Prince George. Mr. Morrison — 1331

Government policy on Bill No. 42. Mr. D.A. Anderson — 1332

Ferry cancellations. Ms. Young — 1332

Procedure on Bill No. 42. Mr. D.A. Anderson — 1333

Valleyview appeal. Mr. Fraser — 1334

Instructions regarding Man and Resources meeting. Mr. Schroeder — 1334

Delivery of new buses. Mr. McGeer — 1335

Diphtheria inoculation programme for schools. Mr. McGeer — 1335

Committee of supply: Department of Highways estimates Mr. Dent — 1335 Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1357

Mr. Gardom — 1337 Mr. McClelland — 1357

Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1338 Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1360

Mr. Phillips — 1339 Ms. Sanford — 1360

Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1340 Mr. Phillips I — 1360

Mr. Morrison ; — 1340 Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1361

Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1341 Mr. Chabot — 1361

Mr. Wallace — 1342 Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1362

Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1343 Mr. Chabot — 1362

Mr. Chabot — 1344 Mr. D.A. Anderson — 1362

Mr. Nunweiler — 1346 Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1362

Mr. Williams — 1347 Mr. Curtis — 1363

Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1347 Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1363

Mr. Fraser — 1349 Mr. Curtis — 1363

Mr. McGeer — 1349 Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1363

Mr. Kelly — 1352 Mr. McClelland — 1363

Mr. Smith — 1353 Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1363

Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1355 Mr. D.A. Anderson — 1364

Mr. Rolston — 1356 Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1364

THURSDAY, MARCH 15, 1973

The House met at 2 p.m.

Prayers.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Oak Bay.

MR. G.S. WALLACE (Oak Bay): Mr. Speaker, I am happy to

deputize for the Premier today in welcoming a teacher and her

class from the Pleasantside School, Port Moody. In fairness to

the Premier, Mr. Speaker, he was busily engaged when the class

arrived and I was asked to introduce Mrs. Hilbert and her class

of pupils from Pleasantside School, Port Moody. I would like

the House to give them a welcome.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Premier.

HON. D. BARRETT (Premier): To return the compliment, I want

to ask the House to welcome today the Leader of the

Conservative Party. (Laughter).

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Langley.

MR. R.H. McCLELLAND (Langley): Mr. Speaker, thank you. On

every Member's desk you will see British Columbia's newest

newspaper. I am very happy to have given each Member a copy of

the first issue of the Fraser Valley News Herald which I

hope will be serving the great Fraser Valley for many

years.

MR. SPEAKER: And you are not supposed to read them in the

House. The Hon. Member for North Vancouver–Seymour.

MR. C.S. GABELMANN (North Vancouver-Seymour): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I am sorry the Premier has taken the words out of the

mouth about one of my opponents in the last election. I want to

introduce a group of students from Windsor Senior Secondary in

North Vancouver and their teacher, Roy Jonsson.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. First Member for Vancouver-Point

Grey.

MR. P.L. McGEER (Vancouver–Point Grey): Mr. Speaker, I

wondered if there was some special room where the Members could

go to smoke these cigars.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Columbia River.

MR. J.R. CHABOT (Columbia River): Mr. Speaker, I would like to welcome

all those people who have come to Victoria today to see democracy in action.

Unfortunately they couldn't get a seat in the galleries. There are too many

here, but nevertheless I hope they get the message while they are here. They

are all farmers and they are very interested in what is taking place in Victoria

today.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Second Member for

Vancouver-Burrard.

MS. R. BROWN (Vancouver-Burrard): Mr. Speaker, I would like

to ask the Member for Langley (Mr. McClelland) if there is any

significance to the fact my cigar says, "it's a boy."

(Laughter).

MR. McCLELLAND: No significance.

AN HON. MEMBER: What have you got against boys?

Introduction of bills.

AN ACT FOR SUITS

AGAINST THE CROWN

Mr. Gardom moves introduction and first reading of Bill No.

135 intituled

An Act for Suits Against the Crown .

Motion approved, Bill No. 135 read a first time and ordered to be placed on

orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the

House after today.

Oral questions.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. First Member for Victoria.

CUPE STRIKE

AT PRINCE GEORGE

MR. N.R. MORRISON (Victoria): Mr. Speaker, I would like to

address my question to the Minister of Education. Does the

Minister of Education intend to let the strike of CUPE at

Prince George interfere with schools in the same way as the

Victoria situation?

HON. E.E. DAILLY (Minister of Education): The Minister of

Labour (Hon. Mr. King) and I have both been consulting on this

matter. Naturally we are concerned and we will be making a

further announcement later on in the week.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Second Member for Victoria.

[ Page 1332 ]

GOVERNMENT POLICY ON BILL 42

MR. D.A. ANDERSON (Victoria): My question, Mr. Speaker, is

to the Premier. May I ask the Premier whether the statements

made last night in Kamloops by the Minister of Agriculture

(Hon. Mr. Stupich) regarding alterations to Bill 42 are

Government policy?

HON. MR. BARRETT: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker, at the very

introduction of the bill we made it publicly clear there would

be amendments to the bill.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, may I further ask the

Premier, in view of the fact that the amendments proposed by

the Hon. Minister in Kamloops go to the heart and principle of

the bill, whether or not this House will have this bill

withdrawn, amended and brought back to this House so that the

true principle of the bill can be discussed by Members of this

Legislature?

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, it is not the intention of

this Government to withdraw the bill. It is the intention of

this Government to protect farmland for our children and their

children and all future generations.

It is our intention to ask the people of this province to

suggest amendments to us and I think the people of this

province should know that of this date there is not one

amendment on the order paper from any single Opposition

Member.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order. Order! Order please. I

remind the Hon. Members that this is question period. It is not

a period for debate.

FERRY CANCELLATIONS

MS. P.F. YOUNG (Vancouver–Little Mountain): My question is

to the Minister of Highways (Hon. Mr. Strachan). Were any

scheduled ferries cancelled for today on the Tsawwassen-Swartz

Bay run?

HON. R.M. STRACHAN (Minister of Highways): No, Mr. Speaker,

there were no scheduled ferries cancelled. Today the 7 a.m.

ferry had seven buses aboard and left an overload of 35

vehicles. The 9 a.m. had eight buses aboard and left an

overload of 32 vehicles. The 10 a.m. had four buses aboard and

had a full load but left no vehicles behind. The 11 a.m. ferry

had five buses, a full load, and left no buses behind. There

were no scheduled ferries cancelled.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

MS. YOUNG: A supplementary question to the Minister of

Highways. Were any scheduled ferries cancelled on the same run

last night?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, there were no scheduled

ferries cancelled last night. The Queen of the Islands was

broken down and the Queen of Victoria was put into service on

the Tsawwassen-Swartz Bay route and the Queen of Sidney picked

up the Gulf Island calls. There was no disruption whatsoever in

the Swartz Bay-Tsawwassen service. The Tsawwassen-Salt Spring

Island traffic was routed through Swartz Bay on the Queen of

Victoria.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. SPEAKER: Order.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Those false statements that were put out

were completely untrue. There was no cancellation of any ferry

last night.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. You are only consuming the

question time by interruptions. The Hon. Member for North Peace

River has a supplemental.

MR. D.E. SMITH (North Peace River): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. SMITH: Point of order? I have a supplemental question,

Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Well, I'm trying to recognize Members who are

dealing with the same subject.

MR. SMITH: And I am on the same subject.

MR. SPEAKER: I would therefore ask the Member for Victoria

to defer.

MR. SMITH: Supplemental question to the Hon. Minister of

Highways. On whose authority, Mr. Minister, was the 8:00 a.m.

ferry cancelled that was asked for by the B.C. Federation of

Agriculture and agreed to by the B.C. Ferry Authority? Whose

authority?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I would ask the Member to check the

schedule, which I have in front of me.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh!

[ Page 1333 ]

HON. MR. STRACHAN: It calls for a ferry at 7 o'clock. It

calls for a 9 o'clock. I've given you the figures. You don't

want the figures. The ferry service was adequate. It met the

needs of the day. It's not the answer you want, but it's the

truth. I'm not going to part from the truth for you or anyone

else.

MR. SPEAKER: On the same supplementary, the same Member.

MR. SMITH: A further supplemental question to the Hon.

Minister of Highways: It is our understanding that the B.C.

Federation of Agriculture were promised a ferry at 8 o'clock

this morning. On whose authority was that ferry cancelled? What

notice was given to them and who gave them that notice?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: There is a scheduled ferry system.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I'm not dodging. It's obvious that the

existing

schedule met all the requirements. That's what we're

concerned about. There was no cancellation of scheduled

ferries.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I've answered the question. There was no

cancellation of scheduled ferries. The

schedule was met and the

people's needs were met.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Any further questions on the

same subject?

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I have a supplemental asked by

the Hon. Member for Langley.

MR. McCLELLAND: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Highways

investigate whether Pacific Stage Line buses — four of them — were put on the 7 o'clock ferry this morning, empty, to take up

space on that ferry?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I will certainly investigate. I doubt

that that's the case but I'll certainly investigate whether or

not that's true. I'll try to get the answer for you this

afternoon for my estimates. As I told you, my information is

that seven buses were put aboard the 7 o'clock ferry and that

only 35 vehicles were left behind. I have no knowledge of any

empty buses being put on to take up space.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: My friends across the way and Pat Burns

are upset because the

schedule met the needs of the people.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Now, is it on the same or on a

different question? There's also the Member behind you. I'm

trying to find out…Is that on the same subject?

AN HON. MEMBER: It's on the same subject.

MR. SPEAKER: Would you defer to the Hon. Member for Saanich

and the Islands?

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR, SPEAKER: I'm trying to observe the supplementals that

the Members want to ask. I think we should keep them in

order.

MR. H.A. CURTIS (Saanich and the Islands): Mr. Speaker,

thank you. A supplemental question to the Minister of Highways:

At any time yesterday or the day before, was B.C. Ferry

Authority management giving consideration to an 8 o'clock ferry

for increased traffic today? We know the regular schedule, but

was there to be an 8 o'clock ferry or was one requested — an

unscheduled 8 o'clock departure from Tsawwassen? Yes or no, Mr.

Speaker.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I'll check with them and find out.

PROCEDURE ON BILL 42

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to a

previous question which unfortunately, due to the out of order

remarks of the Premier, you then switched onto another subject.

The question arises, however, out of the Premier's remark where

he said that he intends to ask the people of the province what

they would like to see done with Bill 42. I'm not questioning

Bill 42. I'm asking the procedure, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to

know whether this means that the committee on agriculture of

this House will be permitted to travel throughout the province

before Bill 42 is passed to get the views of the people of the

province.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, it is Government policy that

second reading of Bill 42 will proceed with the hope that those

people who have already written in will continue to write in if

they have further proposals. We would hope that everybody will

speak during the second reading and give

[ Page 1334 ]

their specific proposals. There will be no committee

travelling the province. The bill will be properly dealt with

in this House as the rules provide. I ask the Members that if

they're seriously concerned about preserving farmland, they

will submit their proposals as quickly as possible.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the Hon. Member have a supplementary?

MR, D.A. ANDERSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Our supplementary is

this: As we on this side of this House are seriously concerned

about preventing….

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. We're trying our best to keep

this from being argumentative on both sides. I'd ask both sides

to restrain their arguments to simple answers or questions.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: May I ask the Premier a supplementary?

May I ask the Premier what objections there are to consulting

with the people of the province by way of…

MR. SPEAKER: There again, that is argumentative. It's not a

proper question. The Hon. Member for Cariboo.

VALLEYVIEW APPEAL

MR. A.V. FRASER (Cariboo): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of

Municipal Affairs said yesterday that his lawyer had not

advised him on appeal action in the Kamloops case. On whose

instruction was the appeal notification given to the Valleyview

Municipality on Tuesday?

HON. J.G. LORIMER (Minister of Municipal Affairs): I don't

know anything about what you're suggesting about some statement

made in Valleyview. I do know today that the appeal has been

filed.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon Member for Langley.

MR. McCLELLAND: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister of

Municipal Affairs if, to his knowledge, subpoenas were served

in Valleyview on Tuesday to appeal this decision?

HON. MR. LORIMER: To my knowledge, there was no service of

any sort. There was a notice of appeal filed, as I understand

the usual procedure. I don't know exactly what day it was

filed, but I learned today that it has been filed.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Chilliwack.

INSTRUCTIONS REGARDING

MAN AND RESOURCES MEETING

MR. H.W. SCHROEDER (Chilliwack): This question is for the

Hon. Minister of Lands, Forests and Water Resources. Were the

Man and Resources Programme employees of the Government given

any instructions to hold a meeting in the Oak Bay Junior

auditorium March 13 last? If so, were they advised to place the

Government's position on Bill 42 before the assembly?

AN. HON. MEMBER: That was answered yesterday.

MR. SCHROEDER: No answer yesterday.

HON. R.A. WILLIAMS (Minister of Lands, Forests and Water Resources):

I'd be glad to answer and repeat the answer that I gave earlier. The Man and

Resources Programme is one that has been initially sponsored by the Canadian

Council of Resource and Environment Ministers. They are totally independent,

although there is funding provided under the previous budget and I hope there

might be some supplementary funds in the coming budget. That hasn't been decided

as of yet. They are totally independent, make their own decisions, and will

relate to the future conference in eastern Canada later this year, along with

people from all the provinces of Canada.

MR. SPEAKER: I believe the general nature of that question

was asked yesterday and was answered yesterday. You're not

simply beating over old straw, I hope.

MR. SCHROEDER: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I did not get an

answer yesterday — and, I'm sorry, I did not get an answer

today.

MR. SPEAKER: It's in your Hansard .

MR. SCHROEDER: I'll have to ask it as a supplementary

question, since apparently the Minister has missed the question

entirely. Was any instruction given to hold the meeting? Yes or

no.

HON. MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I made it abundantly clear

that all of the people in all of the regions are totally

independent in this province and make their own decisions about

meetings that will be held or subjects that will be discussed.

They are totally independent. There were no instructions. It's

abundantly clear there were no instructions.

AN HON. MEMBER: He doesn't understand

[ Page 1335 ]

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. First Member for Vancouver-Point

Grey.

DELIVERY OF NEW BUSES

MR. McGEER: A question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of

Lands, Forests and Water Resources in his capacity as a

director of B.C. Hydro. To the Minister's knowledge will the

buses ordered by the B.C. Hydro from Flyer Industries be

delivered? Will the order be filled and will it be on time?

HON. MR. WILLIAMS: I must say, Mr. Speaker, the transit

questions with respect to expansion of Hydro system have not

been under my direct concern, so I can't comment regarding

that.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. SPEAKER: I think that question was asked two days ago.

Does not the Hon. Member recall that?

MR, McGEER: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to learn from both the

directors of the B.C. Hydro. I have a question for the Minister

of Health.

MR. SPEAKER: You mean that you repeated the question

although you were given an answer two days ago?

MR. McGEER: I asked "to the Minister's knowledge,"

Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, you know that one of the rules is

that we do not repeat questions that have been asked on other

days.

MR. McGEER: I'd like to ask a question of the Minister of

Health Services and Hospital Insurance, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Proceed.

DIPHTHERIA INOCULATION

PROGRAMME FOR SCHOOLS

MR. McGEER: A few days ago the Minister said there was no

programme for diphtheria inoculations in British Columbia. In

view of the spread of the disease around the province, I'd like

to ask if he's revised his opinion and if there will be a mass

inoculation programme for school children.

HON. D.G. COCKE (Minister of Health Services and Hospital Insurance):

Mr. Speaker, that's a rather outlandish question, coming from a scientist. The

fact of the matter is that I checked very throughly with my department since

I learned of sporadic outbreaks of diphtheria of one or two different types.

We're watching it closely.

We've found that the majority of children in the whole

province have been inoculated. There is sufficient toxoid in

the province to handle the situation, and it's relatively

confined. There are only two major districts that are involved

at the present time. They are the upper island and the mid

island, where there are just two or three cases. Then there's a

case over on the lower mainland, in the Squamish area.

Let me suggest this: last year we had 13 cases in the

province. There are some 30-odd carriers in this province — known carriers of diphtheria.

That's something that just cannot be eliminated. But we're

very careful and we're looking after the situation so that

people need not worry about a major outbreak of diphtheria.

Orders of the day.

House in committee of supply; Ms. Young in the chair.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The committee will come to order. However I'd

like to preface before we begin our business. There's been some

confusion over how to address me when I'm in this chair. May I

suggest the address "Ms. Chairman" or "Madam Chairman" would be

quite sufficient. I think that such a thing as "Ms.

Chairperson" is quite a mouthful for anybody to handle.

I think everybody will feel comfortable with those

proceedings.

ESTIMATES, DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAYS

(continued)

On vote 110: Minister's office, $ 64,592.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Member for Skeena.

MR. H.D. DENT (Skeena): Thank you, Ms. Chairman. There are a

number of matters that I would like to bring up in regard to

the estimates of the Department of Highways.

The first one is one that's been in my mind a long time,

because I've driven the highways and the roads of B.C. a great

deal during my Ministry and also because I live in the north.

One thing that I've observed is that many very bad accident

locations on the highways and the roads are left for some time.

Even though warning signs are put up and care is taken by the

highways department, nevertheless accidents continue to recur

at these places.

One example is the McCallister corner. But there

[ Page 1336 ]

are others. there are some in my own constituency. It

appears that when accidents happen they have a tendency to

happen in these same places all the time.

Now, just south of 100 Mile House they had a very bad

accident corner, where there were a couple of sharp turns and a

level crossing. Efforts were made to cut the accident rate down

at that point by putting up warning signs, and by various other

means. These failed, and accidents continued to occur.

One incident, for example, took place on the weekend. On

Friday night I drove along, and there were flares on the road — a car had gone over the bank and several people were injured.

The car was a total write-off. The next night I came along and

there were flares on the road again — another car had gone over

and again there were people injured, and it was a total

write-off. I would imagine that the amount of money paid out

just on that weekend alone in insurance benefits would have

been considerable.

Finally, after many, many accidents at that corner…

MR. G.R. LEA (Prince Rupert): Point of order.

MS. CHAIRMAN: What is your point of order?

MR. LEA: I believe it's against the rules of this House to

read a newspaper, Madam Chairman.

MS. CHAIRMAN: Would the Hon. Member desist from reading

newspapers?

MR. DENT: Finally a permanent solution was arrived at, and

they made an overpass over the railway, which removed the two

corners and the level crossing. I think it cost around $50,000

to do. It was a most welcome move for the people of 100 Mile

House, because while it didn't end the accidents, it certainly

reduced the frequency of them.

Similarly in McCallister they are now straightening out that

corner finally, after many years. Hopefully it will mean the

end of frequent accidents at that location. But again, there

were probably many hundreds of thousands of dollars paid out in

accident benefits.

Now, the question that I would put to the highways Minister

(Hon. Mr. Strachan) is this: now that the Government will be

operating automobile insurance — and I trust that the highways

department will work very closely with the insurance companies,

perhaps by loaning them an engineer from the highways

department, or vice versa — will co-ordination take place at the

level of improved safety on the highways of British Columbia? I

feel this would be the time that we could get a solution to

some of these problems.

On the second point, I want to move into my own constituency of Skeena. There

are just a number of brief questions.

First of all, I would like to have some idea when the bridge

will be completed across the Skeena River at Terrace. I might

point out that the bridge is now under construction and was

promised for many, many elections. It is now finally being

built, which is a most welcome thing.

The second one arises from the fact that now that the

highway has been virtually completed to Terrace I would like

some idea of when we can expect it to be completed to first

class standards between Terrace and Prince Rupert. What is the

plan to have those projects completed in that area?

Thirdly, are there plans to build a bridge across the river

at Kitwanga this year? I'd heard rumours that it might be in

the estimates this year, and I would ask the Minister if, in

fact, it is and whether construction will be starting this

fall.

The fourth point is this: there is undoubtedly going to be a

great deal of activity in the Dease Lake area and the Stikine

area, and we are still without a connecting first class highway

between Highway 16 and Stewart. I would ask the question: when

can we expect to see work begin on that highway connection

between Highway 16 and Stewart? I think it is most urgent that

it be started.

Then there is the road from Smithers to Granisle. Now there

are some people who built an unauthorized road for forestry

purposes, which was just used for the first time about two

weeks ago. I sent a telegram to the mayor of Smithers and some

other people wishing them well on the first, you might say,

"usage" of this particular road. Now it's a forestry access

road by a company. But it's now connecting Granisle and

Smithers.

I would point out that the Granisle area has developed very

rapidly. The people wish to shop in Smithers, because it's a

logical shopping area. I would ask the question: when can we

look for a public road built by the highways department up to

proper standards connecting Smithers with Granisle?

A third area is co-ordination with the Indian affairs

department with regard to roads on reserves and access roads to

reserves. In my campaigning, both in 1966 and in the more

recent provincial election, I had to visit Indian reserves. I

was shocked at the condition of roads that gave access to

reserves only, where there was nothing there but the reserve,

even though they were public roads outside of a reserve. It

seemed to me that we could have provided much better road

maintenance on these roads. I think of the one particularly in

Dog Creek — connecting Dog Creek and Canoe Creek, in that

general area.

There are also some in my own constituency, and the one I think of in particular

is the one at Fort Babine. The Fort Babine reserve has no public road connection

at the present time. It has a forestry access road which is only maintained

in the summer

[ Page

1337 ]

time, and has not been maintained recently.

I'm concerned about the general policy. I understand there

are discussions underway between the federal Department of

Indian Affairs and Northern Development and the provincial

Department of Highways. I would like to get some information on

the progress in these discussions, because it's most urgent to

the people of my constituency who live on Indian reserves.

A further point concerns the B.C. Ferries. There is now B.C.

Ferry service between Vancouver Island and Prince Rupert. The

good people of Kitimat when they want to take this ferry must

drive around to Prince Rupert. They have requested frequently,

and I would echo their requests, that consideration be given to

having alternate service to Kitimat, and that a B.C. Ferry slip

be built at Kitimat. The larger population area is in Kitimat

and Terrace, not Rupert. Rupert is not as large,

population-wise, as Kitimat and Terrace combined. If the

highway connection is built further north to Stewart, then it

becomes even more pressing that we have a ferry slip at

Kitimat.

In regard to the ferries, I might make an aside about this

morning. I came over from Vancouver this morning. I arrived at

the ferry slip at 6:30, but I couldn't get on because I was in

a camper. There were too many buses and trucks and whatnot on

the ferry. I would point out that I did have to wait — I was a

little annoyed — until the 9 o'clock ferry. But I noticed no

great rush of traffic on either ferry. I was left behind on the

first one because I had a peculiarly shaped vehicle. But, very

few other people were left behind — just the normal number.

So you might say that the only person that was discriminated

against was the NDP MLA in this particular case.

Now, the final question. I feel this again is an urgent

matter. I'm not satisfied with the standard of sanding and snow

ploughing on roads in the north. I am just not satisfied with

it. I have driven personally from Terrace to Smithers and I

know the highway superintendent was doing a first class job. So

was the one in Terrace. They were doing the best job they

could. There are many times when they have to move equipment to

clear snow on the road to Rupert, and they are making the best

use of their men and equipment. But I felt it wasn't enough

equipment or enough men to properly maintain the roads in the

peak part of the winder season. It's not so much manpower but

equipment.

Sometimes the road becomes very treacherous, especially

along the Skeena River. I would request that some consideration

be given to more frequent sanding and more frequent snow

ploughing during the peak season in the winter.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Second Member for Vancouver-Point

Grey.

MR. G.B. GARDOM (Vancouver–Point Grey): Cherchez la chair.

Madam Chairman, a couple of questions to the Hon. Minister.

out.

AN HON. MEMBER: It won't help you a bit.

MR. GARDOM: The Hon. Minister has always been very

interested in the Wootton Report. That commission did point out

some very, very serious shortcomings in the field of traffic

safety, and all these things depend upon priority, as we all

know. However, it did advocate there was a very great need for

better coordination between all levels of government in order

to reduce the fantastic amount of social damage and senseless

waste of human life and material that results from the

slaughter on our roadways. It further recommended that there be

a considerable improvement in the liaison between the

Department of Highways and the Superintendent of Motor

Vehicles.

I would like to have the attitudes of the Hon Minister as to

these two positions taken by the Wootton Commission and what,

if anything, he has planned to attempt to correct the items

that were referred to.

HON. R.M. STRACHAN (Minister of Highways): Coordination of

safety programmes. What was the point?

MR. GARDOM: A greater degree of liaison between the

Department of Highways and the Superintendent of Motor

Vehicles. Maybe that is now cured, I do not know. This seemed

to be a criticism at the time and place of the Wootton

Commission. It also advocated, Madam Chairman, better

construction of roads — more divided one-way freeways and the

frictionalization of road surfaces.

HON. E. HALL (Provincial Secretary): There's the rub.

MR. GARDOM: There's many of the rubs. Aye, indeed. Good pun

for this time of the day, Mr Minister.

It advocated provincial-wide motor vehicle testing and

provincial-wide driver training in all of the schools.

Furthermore, it went along with the suggestion that I made in a

variety of speeches in this House, that licences may not be

issued until the age of 18 years unless people happen to pass a

driver training programme and be so certified.

I raised this question to the Hon. Attorney General, but

perhaps the more appropriate forum for the question is under

the aegis of the Minister because he pays a great deal of

attention in his report of the

[ Page 1338 ]

Department of Highways to accident involvement. I would like

to ask the Hon. Minister whether it will be the policy that he

will attempt to have the Government accept, to proclaim the

section that was passed in 1969 in this House, which was not

opposed by any Member in the House, to the effect that, except

with the consent of the Superintendent of Motor Vehicles, no

person under the age of 18 years may drive a vehicle unless he

is certified under an approved driver-training programme. I

would like to ask the Hon. Minister: why has that

section not

yet been proclaimed, and will it be his intention to have it

proclaimed?

I would also like to again reiterate a plea I have made

many, many times. I think this perhaps will fall within your

aegis, Mr. Minister, because I see that in your report you say

that in 201 cases, or about half of the 405 fatal accidents,

the consumption of alcohol was present in one or more of the

parties involved. So in about half of the fatal accidents we

find the presence of alcohol.

There is another very, very alarming statistic following

from that. It says that excessive speed is a factor in 93

people out of the 405 total who were killed. Wrong side of the

road — very, very startling figure: 194, or 48 per cent, of the

405 fatal accidents resulted from a vehicle or a pedestrian

being on the wrong side of the road. You will see, Mr.

Minister, that speed and the wrong side of the road account for

71 per cent of the fatal accidents in the province, or 287

deaths out of 405.

Now this to me points very dramatically to two needs: 1) we

have to have more one-way and more divided highways, and 2) the

existing highways we have should certainly have a far greater

amount of markers than are evident at the present time.

Travelling in the United States — no doubt your officials

have the expertise in this — I did come across one very, very

remarkable little marker. It was sort of a star in the middle

of the road such as we have in B.C., except ours are white and

this one tended to reflect orange. It was most illuminating. It

was not the type of thing that caused any glare. To me it was

just like coming in on an airport in an aircraft; it just

beautifully lit up the whole road surface. Furthermore, it was

elevated so that if your wheels hit it you would know that you

were on it, and that would be a little bit of a signal to an

errant motorist that he was crossing the line.

Dealing with the alcohol side, I would again make the plea that in order to

try and cout down what is amounting to "roadway roulette" in B.C. we for goodness

sake indicate in every liquor outlet in the province and every gas pump in the

province what the penalties for drinking-driving are and what the consumption

and the impairment levels are. It wouldn't disturb me in the slightest to see

that this type of caveat was put on every bottle of hard liquor in the province

of B.C. It could just be a little sticker saying, "Don't drive and drink in

the Province of British Columbia. If you do the following will happen to you

and these are the impairment levels."

I think we have got to get that message completely across to

the public and let them thoroughly know that in the Province of

B.C. we are going to have one rule and one rule only — Don't

drink and drive.

I would like to have the Hon. Minister's comments on these

points.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I have a page of notes already — I've

just started. I think I have to agree with practically

everything the Member who just sat down has said. I agree we

have to get the information out with regard to the consequences

of drinking and driving.

Speeding on the wrong side of the road: you say we need more

divided highways and I agree. We have very few divided highways

in the province. They are very expensive and if we can get

enough money we could build divided highways all over the

province.

No licence until 18 unless you pass a driver training

programme: I was aware of that particular section. I discussed

it verbally with the Minister of Education (Hon. Mrs. Dailly).

There is no sense proclaiming it unless you have the

driver-training programme available all over the province. I

discussed it verbally with the Minister of Education. I wrote

her a formal letter just a month or so ago asking her to get

the statistics as to what would be required, the cost of the

programme, the curriculum, how we would fit it in the

curriculum and so on. So we are looking at that particular

aspect of it.

Testing stations as asked for by the Wootton Royal

Commission: as you know, it is now compulsory in Vancouver, the

lower mainland and Victoria. I understand new testing stations

are going in in other places and gradually, I expect, the whole

province will be covered by compulsory testing of vehicles.

Better construction of highways: well, we like to build them

as best we can. But I agree with you there.

Liaison between the Department of Highways and the

Superintendent of Motor Vehicles: yes, there has been liaison

and there will be continuing liaison between the two

departments.

Better coordination of safety programmes: I agree there that

there should be 100 per cent coordination. You will notice in

the automobile insurance legislation that there is the

allowance for the insurance corporation to participate in

safety programmes on the highways and they will all be tied

together into one comprehensive programme.

The Member for Skeena (Mr. Dent) referred to the crossing south of 100 Mile

House and if it is the level crossing I am thinking of, just a few miles south

of 100 Mile House, I couldn't tell you what it cost, but it cost more than $50,000.

I rather suspect it was

[ Page

1339 ]

more than half a million dollars to build that particular

crossing. As you know, I have driven that particular piece of

road quite frequently over the years. It would have been a

fairly expensive crossing.

Bridge completion across the Skeena: we expect that to be

all wound up in the next two years.

The road to Dease Lake needs a first class highway? Well, we

have to get the existing highway just upgraded to a better

level before we can get into a first class highway. I make no

promises as to when that particular road will be classified as

a first class highway. The road from Smithers to Grandisle will

be finished this year.

Access road to the reserve: as the Member indicated, I have

already had an initial meeting with the B.C. Indian Affairs

Branch top man in this province. I'm concerned about the

relationship between this department and the needs of Indian

Affairs.

Until now, I have only been called on when individual

reserves wanted some action by the Department of Highways to

serve their particular reserve requirements. That is a

completely unsatisfactory way of meeting the needs of the

native population. As I said in an earlier debate we must get

the Indian population, insofar as roads are concerned, on

exactly the same basis as the non-Indian population.

I have a standing offer, as part of these negotiations and

discussions, that I am quite prepared on behalf of this

Government to serve the Indians in exactly the same way as we

serve other communities and other needs of the non-Indian

population. In return of course, the department must be given

the same rights with regard to Indian reserve land for the

requirements of the province.

In many areas the needs of the province are being thwarted

because it's on reserve land and we simply can get no action

from the federal authorities in order to solve some of the

problems. I am thinking of the Penticton bypass, for instance,

where we're just simply told to go away. They don't want to

talk to us, even though there's no other solution to that

particular problem. So it's a two-way street. We'll continue

these talks until we have a satisfactory solution.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Member for South Peace River.

MR. D.M. PHILLIPS (South Peace River): Thank you, Madam

Chairman. I certainly don't intend to delay the debate on the

Minister's estimates this afternoon. I'm going to take the

attitude that he'll probably do a reasonable job and I'm going

to wait and see.

Now as the Minister knows, I have forwarded to him a list of requirements for

our area. Certainly roads are one of the greatest priorities in our area, and

I am sure that the Minister will look at that. I haven't heard any reply yet.

I would like to ask him a couple of questions on specific areas this afternoon.

Is the construction that has started on the Hart highway from Erris to Groundbirch

going to be completed with the new bridge over the Kiskatinaw? I'd like to ask

him if he will give top priority to three-lane passing on the Hart highway at

the East Pine River and also on the Wabi Hill out of Chetwynd.

If and when the Sukunka coal project goes ahead, the traffic

between Chetwynd and Dawson Creek could increase by 300 or 400

per cent. These are long hills, all three of them, on both

sides of the Pine River. Out of Chetwynd there are very long

hills and there will be accidents there unless we have some way

of speeding the traffic out of these long hills.

I'd also like to ask the Minister's consideration for

special funds for next summer, over and above what might

normally be expended, to help upgrade our rural road

conditions. The reason that I am asking this, Mr. Minister, is

that due to the early snowfall and the early wet weather that

we had in September of last year, the department was not able

to keep up with the normal maintenance. The rural roads are in

terrible condition at the present time. We actually had wet

weather from the first of September through freeze-up. Normally

we can carry on with gravelling through to even sometimes the

middle of November.

This has created a problem. It's hard on the farmer's

equipment. It's hard on the roadbase, if they continue to chew

it up. It's much more costly to repair if the road is chewed up

and the present base of gravel is ruined. So I would ask your

consideration, Mr. Minister.

I would also like the Minister to speed up the engineering

on the bridge over the Kiskatinaw River on the Alaska Highway.

We have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on repairing

slides on both sides of this river. To date, with the

development that is going on in the northern part of the

province, all of the heavy equipment has to move over this

bridge — cats still have to be unloaded. I've complained about

this bridge in this House in the previous three years when I

was here. I know there is an engineering study going on, but

there again, with the tremendous development that could take

place in the north and in the Mackenzie Delta or even if the

Premier's plan for the railroad goes ahead, this Alaska Highway

is still the main route into the north.

The Kiskatinaw River bridge is a bottleneck. It was built,

as you know, during the construction of the Alaska Highway by

the Americans. We haven't replaced the bridge yet. It was built

in a hurry during the war. The bridge should be replaced and

the approaches on both sides of the bridge should be

re-engineered and rerouted.

The only other thing that I'd like to ask the Minister: is

construction at the present time going

[ Page 1340 ]

ahead on the Fort Simpson-Fort Nelson highway? Is it going

to be by day labour or by tender? Does the Minister plan on

pushing right ahead with it? Will the construction of the road

from Dawson Creek to the Alberta border, with a new bridge over

the Pouce Coupe River, which is now under construction, will

that project be finished?

I'd just like to make one comment further to the Second

Member for Vancouver–Point Grey (Mr. Gardom) with regard to

head-on collisions. I advocated some years ago that it be

mandatory that all drivers, both during the daytime and at

night, be compelled to drive with their headlights on. When I'm

on the highway myself I always have my headlights on. I know

that if I can't see somebody coming, a dark car or one that

fades into the landscape, they're sure going to see me; because

I always drive with my headlights on.

The replacement of a few bulbs in your automobile is a very

cheap way to prevent an accident. With the electrical systems

they have in cars today, it certainly doesn't hurt the battery.

There's an alternator system which is far improved over what it

used to be. I would sincerely like to see it become compulsory

that all automobiles, trucks and buses on the highway drive

with their headlights on 24 hours a day.

If you meet a Greyhound bus now, you'll see they have their

headlights on. When they brought in that policy in the United

States quite a few years ago, they cut down their sideswipes

by, I think it was 50 per cent. I think it's a good policy. I

do it for my own safety and the safety of anybody who happens

to be driving with me.

Since the department of airplanes comes under the Minister's

portfolio, I would like to say that I am in favour of the

Department of Highway's having airplanes. I think there should

be a good fleet of airplanes available to all of the senior

civil servants if they have to make a trip somewhere; because

this island is very difficult to get off of by scheduled

airlines.

So far as I am concerned, the fiasco that was raised in this

House a few years ago about Gaglardi's airplane was a

smokescreen. I agree with airplanes being made available to all

the cabinet Ministers and to MLA's on both sides of the House

to go about the business of this province. We just voted on a

budget of $1.7 billion. It's big business and I think we should

be able to expedite that business.

HON. A.B. MACDONALD (Attorney General): Families too?

MR. PHILLIPS: No, I didn't say families. I said available to the senior

civil servants, the people who are travelling on the people's business, the

cabinet Ministers, and I see no reason why MLA's, when they're coming to and

from a city, if there's a flight going out, shouldn't have the availability

of the airplanes. I have always felt that way.

I think that what was talked about and caused such a big

stink about is not that great an amount of money. Today you

know that anybody who has a large business, and who has the

available in large cities, like Toronto, Montreal and so forth,

a lot more scheduled airlines than we do — the connecting

flights from Vancouver Island are sometimes very difficult.

You get over to the mainland and then you have to wait for some

other flight. It's not an easy place to get out. I certainly

want to put my views on record that I think there should be

airplanes and they should be made available.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I would appreciate some positive

answers to some of the questions that I've asked.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Minister of Highways.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I agree that roads are important in that

particular area. I remember attending a convention of the

Farmers Union in Fort St. John. I think there were 23

resolutions before that convention; 19 of them were on the

state of the roads in the area. I have driven some of those

roads and I know how difficult they can be.

We want to take a look at the three hills you were speaking

of and three passing lanes.

The Erris bridge — there's money in it for this year.

The John Hart Highway — progress to Erris

section will be

done by day labour. There's money in there.

The Pouce Coupe bridge, completion of the Spirit River road

and the Spirit River Bridge — there's money in this year's

estimates for that.

The new Spirit Road to Briar Heights — there's money in the

estimates for that too.

MR. PHILLIPS: The Kiskatinaw bridge on the Alaska

Highway?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: No, that's not in this year as yet. It's

on the "A" list as a matter of fact.

You asked about the work from Fort Nelson to Fort Simpson.

That will be done this year by day labour. I indicated in

earlier debate or in answer to a question that we'd go right

ahead with it as far as the river and try to prod the feds into

starting down their side too.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. First Member for Victoria.

MR. N.R. MORRISON (Victoria): Madam Chairman, I too would like to talk

about ferries for the moment if I may. Since my riding is the City of

[ Page

1341 ]

Victoria a tremendous number of our people use the ferries

on a very regular basis. This ferry route to the mainland is

our sea bridge. It's very vital to us that the ferries are

available and are frequent.

On October 14 last year, the Vancouver Province had a

comment about the tourists causing considerable ferry problems

last year. I'd like to ask the Minister of Highways what plans

he has proposed for the tourist season of 1973. I'd also like

to ask him what programmes he has planned to cope with the

request, as he has mentioned earlier, about extending ferries,

also about additional runs if possible in the summer.

There also has been a number of requests for one or two

ferries a day where residents may make reservations, so that a

business person who is regularly required to travel to and from

the island may, on at least one ferry, in each direction have

some form of a reservation system so that he could be sure that

he, for example, could catch the 7 o'clock ferry over in the

morning and the 7 o'clock ferry back again at night with a

reservation and be sure of it.

I personally would like to see a night ferry of some kind

put on, but I can appreciate the problems.

I'd also like to ask the Minister of Highways what the

situation at the moment is concerning the relocation of the

ferries and their terminals, and specifically what the

situation right now is concerning Gabriola Island.

I'd also like, if I may, to read a letter from the Minister

of Highways to the Victoria Chamber of Commerce, which is quite

recent — it's dated March 2, 1973. It's addressed to Mr.

Farmer, of the Greater Victoria Chamber of Commerce. In that

particular letter, which I won't read in its entirety, the

Minister of Highways indicates that the argument that the

ferries are part of the highway system is really not valid.

This is the part that I'd like to have a comment on. If the

ferries are not our sea bridge to the mainland, and are

therefore not part of the highway system…

HON. MR. STRACHAN: That's a letter from me to the Victoria

Chamber of Commerce?

MR. MORRISON: That's right. It's dated March 2, 1973, and

it's addressed directly to Mr. Terence W. Farmer, President of

the Greater Victoria Chamber of Commerce, 1020 Government

Street, Victoria. It's headed, "Re: Night Ferry." It's really

discussing the night ferry, but I don't want to go into that

night ferry issue at the moment.

I simply want to get a comment on his statement which is at the beginning of

paragraph 2, that the argument that the ferries are really part of the highway

system is really not valid because there is no 100 mile

section of the highway

in British Columbia that costs $32 million a year to operate. That's the comment

that I'd like to have him comment on, not the balance of the letter.

[Mr. Dent in the chair]

I would also like to comment on the British Columbia Chamber

of Commerce and their highways recommendations, which I'm sure

the Minister has. Some of the proposals and resolutions in that

he's already answered and so I won't go any further on them,

but there's one in particular which I'd like a comment on. It's

concerning roadside airstrips.

If I may, I'll read their report. It says:

"In view of the ever increasing reliance on air

transportation in the north, and the obvious limitations on the

use of float equipped planes for load speed handling of heavy

cargo to and from a ship on water and the time off between

floats and skis twice a year…"

Their recommendation is:

"that the Government of British Columbia investigate the

feasibility of constructing small airstrips in the remote

northern areas of the province, preferably adjacent to new or

existing roads, in such a manner that basic maintenance could

be handled by the highways department graders and maintenance

crews."

I'd like to extend that. As an active pilot and aircraft

owner, this problem is one that I'm very much aware of. I

believe that the Minister of Highways should consider looking

into the possibility of airstrips near or adjacent to every

small community, and certainly to all the islands in this

general area, There should be an airstrip for emergency use, if

for no other, but also because so many of these islands are

recreation areas and are very difficult to get to — yet there

are a tremendous number of private aircraft who could use small

airstrips.

As I understand it, most aircraft today can use an airstrip

of about 2,000 feet, and a width of about 100 feet. Gravel and

grass would be more than adequate. It's no longer necessary

that the airstrip be into wind, because most aircraft today are

quite capable of 35º cross winds. It's an area that I would

certainly like to see expanded.

I have other questions which I'll get to later. Thank

you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Minister of Highways.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: The Member suggests that the highways department

construct small new airstrips along highways on the island and throughout the

province to be maintained by Highways graders and Highways crews. I can't even

hold out a hope that we'll engage in that sphere of activity until we stop getting

complaints from people on the roads and side roads of the province that they're

adequately

[ Page

1342 ]

being maintained. We're not in that position right now. We're hoping to improve

it, as I indicated the other day, through getting an increase in the sums allocated

for the new equipment. This is a soft spot with the Member from Cariboo (Mr.

Fraser).

I'm hoping that there'll be additional funds that we're

going to get over and above what's in the estimates and that

part of that will also go into the purchase of even more new

equipment so that our equipment quality can get up equal to

that of the Forest Service. So until we get the roads looked

after, really we haven't got the right to embark on the luxury

of creating airstrips, or putting out crews to work doing

that.

As to the letter I sent to the Victoria Chamber of Commerce

that no

section of highway cost $2 million — was it $2 million

I said a year to operate? Whatever it was, it's a statement of

fact. There is a difference between a

section of highway and a

ferry run, because there's an operating cost attached to a

ferry run that isn't there insofar as a piece of highway is

concerned. It's a form of transportation, really. It's the

equivalent of a car on the highway, rather than the highway

itself.

Relocation of the ferry terminals on the Gabriola Island

run: no decision has been made. We're still at the

investigating aspect of it.

A night ferry: I've already answered that.

Additional runs: one or two runs a day with reservations. We

have the ferries going full blast, as you know, and every run

we can possibly get in between Victoria and Vancouver, we have

operating.

AN HON. MEMBER: What about reservations?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I didn't mention that. I've been in the

same position — many times I've felt that reservations would

serve a purpose. I've pointed out that the ferry service does

eventually carry those who are waiting before the day is over.

There are no overloads left there at the end of the day, so

they finally get there.

But I'm told that on a $5 ticket, the cost of reservations

is completely out of line. The reservation systems today, such

as the air companies operate, are for a ticket that costs

anything from $15 to $300, so that the cost of the reservation

is very minimal compared to the value of the ticket that is

sold. We're selling tickets that are worth $2 or $5 or $10,

something like that. To implement a full reservation system

would be very expensive, on that basis.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Member for Oak Bay.

MR. G.S. WALLACE (Oak Bay): Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to touch on

a few points. It's been mentioned that the quality of a highway and the safety

measures have a great deal to do with cutting down accidents. One particular

highway on which I'd like to comment is the Pat Bay Highway and the installation

of these dividers or medians, or whatever the technical phrase is.

I'd like to ask the Minister, first of all, to what degree

this particular model was compared with other existing — I

realize that this is a technical question, but I drive that

road very frequently, day and night. As far as one can

determine, while this particular median division may eliminate

or cut down on head-on collisions, I'm just wondering how long

it's going to be until someone on the inside lane runs into

that median and is ricocheted off into the lane on your

righthand side.

I don't think this has happened, but two or three things are

rather obvious. As you drive, particularly in the dark, there's

a considerable reflection of your headlamps off the surface of

the divider. Secondly, the traffic coming in the opposite

direction — because of the angles or the geometry of the

situation the headlamps just seem to come over the top of the

divider. It's my impression that you are actually getting more

light effect from the oncoming cars than you do when there is

no divider. Is that divider too low, or should it be higher or

lower? I'm not just expressing a personal opinion — but many

comments from other people that drive that highway. It might be

that we're all unaccustomed to that type of divider. There has

been a lot of research done into this and I'm quoting from a

U.S. magazine which talks about the tremendous importance of

One of the statements it makes is that this is the result of

research which was done in Great Britain, I understand: "that

accident rates are significantly lower where opposing traffic

is separated by medians; and that median barriers of suitable

design are effective in reducing the severity of

accidents."

I would just like to know what other types of design are

available and to what extent these alternatives were considered

in the construction of the Pat Bay Highway. I would like to

know to what degree the one that is now installed has been

evaluated. Have there been any accidents on the highway to this

date — I know it hasn't been there very long — attributed to a

vehicle first of all hitting the median before hitting another

vehicle? That is one question I'd like to ask.

I would also like to comment on the degree to which the

Department of Highways does conduct research, either of its own

or in contact with the other agencies and countries which

obviously do carry out a great deal of research. I am thinking,

for example, of this

article which took information from

various souces — and it also comments on an example on a

freeway in Wyoming to deal with the person who nods off to

sleep or almost goes to sleep at the wheel on the freeways on

long, straight runs.

[ Page 1343 ]

They've cut grooved sections in the highway which produce a

very distinct vibration which jolts the driver if he's tending

to go off to sleep. The other points they mention are the use

of posts that break very easily when a car hits them and other

types of energy-absorbing barriers. For example, when you drive

some of our highways in the interior or in the Fraser Canyon, I

notice some of these curved metal rails with the steel posts,

their object I presume being to protect the car going off the

road and at the same time to minimize the risk of fatality if

they do hit the barrier.

I would just like some comment from the Minister as to what

degree we study the research in other countries and compare

what, we are installing at the present time in British Columbia

with what is available as a better energy — absorbing barrier to

not only save the vehicle going off the road but at least to

cut down the risk to the driver and the occupants.

I would also like, in terms of preserving the highway, to

know what comment the Minister might make, if any, on the use

of studded tires on the highways in British Columbia. I gather

it's a somewhat controversial issue in that it's certainly well

worth while on bad roads in wintertime, but on dry roads at

other times of the year I gather that it can do considerable

damage to the highway. I wonder if the Minister would make some

comment on the whole matter of studded tires. To what degree

are we collecting information from other sources?

Like the former speaker, I too have a great interest in the

ferry system. I make no apology for the following question,

which I've asked in this House before, and the question was

asked today: whether or not island residents should not be

given some preference in the use of the ferries at the peak of

the tourist season?

It's my personal feeling that people on the island in the

peak of the tourist season generally try to avoid the very busy

hours if at all possible; but there are times certainly when I

have had to go to Vancouver and return and not be in a position

to choose when I go. I really feel that it's just a bit much

that our tax money has no choice but to subsidize a loss on the

ferries. I am not questioning that. I accept that as being

something the province should do.

Nevertheless, as a resident and a person who is paying taxes

to support the ferry system, it is rather galling to spend two,

three, or even four hours waiting for a ferry when you're

trying to get to Vancouver on business, or trying to get back

the same night.

I know that the answer of the previous government was that this was not practicable.

I question that. I think that the people living on the island depend intimately

on the ferries. While we must show every courtesy we can to the tourists who

have come to our island and to our province, I really would suggest that the

Minister reconsider — and if he doesn't want to answer it now, that's fine —

but I would hope that some reconsideration should be given to the degree to

which island residents can be given some consideration at the peak of the tourist

season.

One of the Members who have had correspondence is obviously

the Member for Vancouver–Point Grey (Mr. McGeer). He was

talking the other day about the very small area on the ferries

which is devoted to non-smokers. I've had some pretty strong

letters on this subject — not just in relation to the ferries — but this whole question of non-smokers not asserting their

rights; that in public places and in society generally the

non-smoker just seems to have put up with the inconvenience and

the physical hazard of being polluted with somebody else's

smoke.

While I am not proposing some great anti-smoking crusade — I

have talked about that under the Health estimates — I wonder if

the Minister would comment. I am quoting from a letter saying

that the space on the ferry for non-smokers is just one small

section and the rest of the ferry space where the public

mingle, by and large, can often be very unpleasant in the

evening.

Finally I would like just to question the Minister again

regarding the answer given earlier today about this 8 o'clock

ferry this morning. My secretary phoned the information office

of the ferry system this morning and was told that an

arrangement had been made for an 8 o'clock ferry, but that the

arrangement was subsequently cancelled.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Who did she phone?

MR. WALLACE: The information officer, whoever he is. I don't

know the man's name. She phoned the ferry system and asked to

speak to the public information.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: This was in Victoria?

MR. WALLACE: Today. Yes. And the statement was made that an

arrangement for an 8 o'clock ferry had been made but had

subsequently been changed.

When the question was asked why it was changed, the comment

was that, "Well, that's something else."

I think that the Minister's earlier promise to look into

this particular issue would be well justified.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon, Minister of Highways.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: The Member just referred to the ferry

this morning and I was asked if any empty buses had been placed

aboard the 7:00 a.m. ferry this morning. There were no empty

buses placed on the Swartz Bay Ferry at 7 o'clock; there were

[ Page 1344 ]

empty buses placed on the Tsawwassen Ferry at 7 o'clock.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I've already answered it. At 9 o'clock

people walked on the ferry from two buses because they weren't

sure the buses were going to be able to get on. After the

people had walked aboard there was room for the two empty buses

and they then drove on the ferry so they would be able to serve

the people at this side.

At 10 o'clock there were no overloads anyway; so there was

no problem.

Island residents to get some preference at the peak of the

tourist season. To be quite frank with you I just don't know

how you could work that out.

I try to put myself in the place of a tourist who arrives to

get on a ferry. He is told he doesn't require a reservation.

Then he finds that cars that come two hours after he has been

waiting drive past him onto the ferry with a reservation. You

would almost have to give the tourist the right to a

reservation too; which gets us back into that…I think it

would give B.C. a bad name if we followed that sort of

preferential procedure.

I will certainly take a look at the size of the area on

ferries for non-smokers. You must have been talking to my wife,

because she says the same thing.

Studded tires, excessive wear. These are indications they do

cause excessive wear on the highway system. That is being

studied.

With regard to posts and so on, the signposts are of the

kind that break off easily. The lighting posts are not yet of

that type, but we're hoping to get eventually to that.

We haven't tried that change in the road surface to jolt the

drivers awake.

The Department of Highways does stay in contact with other

groups that are doing research.

They do have meetings with other groups, at which technical

papers are given and slides shown. The first convention I went

to of the Roads Association of Canada was almost all given over

to these technical lecturers and displays of what is happening

and what is being done in other places.

It's my attitude, as the Minister, that if there is a

technical seminar that is worthwhile, then our people should go

to it and meet the people. I've put no limits on their ability

to do so. I feel we must keep in touch with developments and

utilize them for the benefit of the Province of British

Columbia.

The dividers; those particular dividers were developed by the highways department

themselves, based on their own experience in developing other dividers and based

on, as I say, these discussions and experiences of other jurisdictions. There

aren't too many types of dividers that you can use. You have the median. In

Oregon I've noticed they have a type of screen — bushes that divide the highway.

Even when you have the wide median, people get off and cross

the median right in the way of cars coming in the other

direction. This is the shortcoming of just a straight median

that can be driven across. This particular median here was

developed…The signs are there; obviously some cars have

tended to go up on them. But they are designed to bring the

cars right back onto their own lane and they keep on going. We

have no reports of any accidents where cars have hit the

divider and been bounced back to the otherlane.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Columbia

River.

MR. J.R. CHABOT (Columbia River): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A

few brief questions for the Minister of Highways. A few days

ago the cabinet was submitted a brief by the British Columbia

Federation of Labour. In that brief they did bring up some

matters of concern to them relative to highways.

One was dealing with the ferry service between the mainland

and Vancouver Island. They urged the Government to give

consideration to an increase and an expansion of the ferry

service, as well as a reduction in fares. I'm wondering whether

the Minister is giving consideration to the reduction of fares

on the B.C. ferry service.

I remember many years ago the now Minister of Mines and

Petroleum Resources (Hon. Mr. Nimsick) stood in this House on

several occasions and suggested that ferries between the

mainland and Vancouver Island should be free; that there should

be no fares. This was really, in his opinion, a continuation of

the Trans-Canada highway into Victoria. Consequently, there

should be free ferries. I want to know whether the Minister of

Highways considers that suggestion made by the present Minister

of Mines and Petroleum Resources as a ridiculous suggestion, or

is he considering carrying out the suggestion so eloquently put

many years ago by the Minister of Mines and Petroleum Resources

when he sat on this side of the House.

Now, speaking very briefly on matters of concern within my

constituency, I want to know whether there is any consideration

being given to improvement on the Westside Road between

Invermere and Dutch Creek, or Fairmont Hot Springs if you want.

There has been a programme of improvement on this highway. It's

about an 18-mile link. It has been paved about 10 miles on the

south end of the highway. Really, that is the least travelled

portion of that highway. I understand from the Department of

Highways that the reason for starting at that end was because

it would eliminate the necessity of travelling great distances

for the maintenance of that particular

[ Page 1345 ]

highway.

Also, last year there was money budgeted for improvement on

the north end of this highway. Nothing actually took place. The

money was diverted to other highway projects within the

constituency. There remains something between eight and 10

miles of the highway that needs improvement.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Where's that?

MR. CHABOT: The Westside Road, between Invermere and Dutch

Creek. It's the northern end, and that's the

section that is

most travelled. Incidentally, on that portion of the highway

the provincial government owns a large tract of land called

Sunshine Ranch, purchased many years ago for future

recreational development. It was a very wise purchase.

However, I think that there's a need for improvement in this

road. I was wondering whether some consideration will be given

this year. I'm not suggesting that it's necessary to complete

the unfinished portion this year. But we were promised last

year that there would be two to three miles of it finished at

the north end and paved. Nothing took place and I'm wondering

whether consideration could be given to improving it. The money

was budgeted but was diverted somewhere else.

Now, another point is a bridge called the Pontoon Bridge

that links the community of Wilmer and Highway 95. It's a long-established bridge. Apparently the deck has deteriorated and

is in need of new decking. I understand also that there's need

of improvement of pilings. What really alarms me is the fact

that I understand that the attitude of the Department of

Highways is that the bridge should be torn out rather than

improved.

It's not a major bridge. It's a bridge over the Columbia

River, which is fairly narrow at that particular stage of its

flow because it's only about 28 miles from the source. It's not

a large bridge; it's not a costly bridge. It's not anything

that would cost any great sums of money to improve. Without the

improvement of this bridge, it would involve an additional

six-mile detour each and every day for the people who live in

Wilmer and work in Radium Hot Springs.

Also, one other consideration on this bridge — why I think

there's a need for improvement and not the destruction of the

bridge — is the fact that the only access we have between the

east and west sides of the valley is the bridge at Athalmer.

Without the Pontoon Bridge linking Wilmer and Highway 95, if

anything was ever to happen to the Athalmer bridge, the people

from Invermere would have to make a 40-mile detour to get

access back to the west side of Highway 95 on the way to

Radium.

I think there's justification for the maintenance of this particular bridge.

I would hope that some consideration will be given to this.

AN HON. MEMBER: You say that you've been told that they're

going to tear it out?

MR. CHABOT: Yes, I have information from the district

superintendent that he feels that the bridge should be taken

out. I don't support that theory myself.

One other point is the level crossing at Athalmer, which has

been investigated in years gone by by the Department of

Highways in conjunction with the Department of Transport, to

see whether the rail traffic in that area justified the

expenditure — or, on the part of the Department of Transport,

whether it justified participation — in the construction of an

overpass. At that particular time — this was about five years

ago — it was concluded that there wasn't sufficient train

traffic to justify an overpass.

However, since that time there's been an upsurge in rail

traffic with the developing of the Fording River coal deposits.

Also, additional tonnage is coming in from the southern Alberta

coal fields. The people of that area are experiencing longer

delays at the rail crossing. Certainly there could be an

improvement on the part of the railroad in blocking of this

level crossing for the periods in which it's blocked from time

to time.

Another consideration which has been brought to my attention

on several occasions is the fact that the district hospital is

on the west side of the community. Those people who it serves

on the east side — Radium Hot Springs, Fairmont Hot Springs,

Athalmer, Windermere, and other little communities — are quite

concerned with the lengthy blockages that take place.

I'm wondering whether the Minister would, probably in

conjunction with the Department of Transport, take into

consideration the re-examination of the traffic pattern and the

length of delays that are taking place on this level crossing,

to see whether some improvements can be made and whether an

overpass really is needed. I think the time is coming that if

there is any further increase in rail traffic, an overpass

should be built at this location.

Now, one other point is in the southern end of my

constituency — that is a link between Skookumchuck Prairie and

the Wasa cutoff. I understand that plans are all ready for a

bridge — either a bridge or a link on the east side of the

Highway 95. I personally support the maintenance of the present

highway location on the west side, rather than a new highway

from Springbrook across to Wasa, which cut through a lot of

very valuable farmland.

Also on the west side there is the pulp mill — Freshbrook

Forest Industries Pulp Mill. The highway is a good highway on

the west side but what is really required is a bridge across

the Kootenay River from the Skookumchuck Prairie, down into

Wasa. Why I'm

[ Page 1346 ]

suggesting there is a need for a bridge is because at the

moment there are two level crossings that people must

negotiate, as well as a single lane traffic bridge. People have

to wait at the bridge.

I think that there are plans, and I'm wondering how far

these plans have progressed. Also, there have been suggestions

that if the road is going to be maintained in its present

location it might be necessary to have some adjustments on the

curvature of the existing bridge over the Kootenay River at

Springbrook.

There is concern by one small service station operator there

as to really where the plans are, where we are going, what's

going to take place, and when it is going to take place.

Because he's considering renovating his service station

there.

One other question that's been brought up from time to time

by the Minister of Mines and Petroleum Resources (Hon. Mr.

Nimsick), is the question of Rose Pass. It's a highway that

leads to nowhere. It leads to the Kootenay Lake. However, the

Minister of Mines and Petroleum Resources used to push very

strenuously for the establishment of this road. I remember in

years gone by there was a survey carried out.

I'm wondering whether you believe that there is

justification for this road. What is the present situation? Are you progressing? Is construction going to

start in 1973? Or is construction going to start in 1974, 1975,

or never? Which is it, Mr. Minister? Those are the only

questions I have.

MS. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Fort

George.

MR. A.A. NUNWEILER (Fort George): Thank you Mr. Chairman. I

would like to make one or two comments about highway problems

in my area as well.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. NUNWEILER: Do you want to include yours? I'll talk to

him about that too.

I think this is a high priority in my area. It appears in

many circumstances that highway planning has been several years

behind, probably 4 or 5 years behind, in certain parts of the

riding. Our area, as you may be aware, is at the confluent of

the two major rivers, the Nechako and the Fraser, and the city

is inside the confluence.

There's a population of approximately 60,000 in the area.

We've got heavy industrial traffic as well because of the fact

that three pulp mills are on the northwest — northeast end of

one part of the city — and then we have a major industrial site

on the opposite end of the city.

We do have a major highway that divides the entire city. We've got a high intensity

of industrial traffic, largely logging trucks, continuously travelling this

road. At the same time we have the cross traffic from both sides of the city,

which has a traffic density much greater than the highway itself, even though

the highway itself has a large volume of traffic — not only industrial but,

of course, heavy vehicle through-traffic and local city traffic.

It's a real hodge-podge and does create a lot of problems

for the motorists, for the industries and also for the

highways.

We do have a city council which is continuously grappling

with this as well. And also regional districts.

We've got a rather unfortunate accident record in the area,

according to the records. We do have a long hill going east,

Highway 16 East, with the same kind of traffic, that does not

have a passing lane for trucks. Highway 16 West has the same

problem — no passing lane for trucks. In effect it is a road

that we would find passing through a small community, even

though this is the crossroads of the north.

I would like to suggest the Minister of Highways (Hon. Mr.

Strachan) consider visiting the area and having a good look at

it. Because really and truly it hasn't had the planning that is

necessary. It has also been noted in the past that many schools

are on the heavily-travelled parts of the highway, which adds

to the hazards.

It sometimes strikes me strange, the planning that does go

on, whether it's construction of schools, of industry, and so

on. The department people from education do their school

planning. The department of forests does their planning. Yet

somehow or other these different departments, when they build a

school, don't seem to be able to talk with Highways to see how

the volume of students and the volume of traffic are going to

mix. Somehow or other transportation planning should involve

all departments that are related to it.

We also have snow clearing problems in the area. We do have

snow up there, it's a little different than down here on the

Island.

We've had a tough winter in many respects this year. But in

checking the equipment — the snow fighting equipment — it has

been noted that in our area a lot of the equipment has been

much too light to cope with the conditions. The average age of

the equipment in the area is 12 years old. And there's even

some of it that's 25 years old. It would appear that this is

something that should be looked at.

We also have the problem with the Hart Highway area. What

the answer is I don't know. Obviously it has to be looked at.

We can give one answer and not have the right one. I would

suggest that highway planning might take a very good look at

copying with accident hazards and reducing our accidents.

There's also been a problem with expropriations in the east end of the riding

where a highway was put

[ Page

1347 ]

through prime agricultural land. It involved about six

different small farms. The delays involved in compensating

these people, along with the question as to why it was

necessary to go through prime agricultural land, is still

really not answered to my satisfaction, and many others.

I would like to ask the Minister to comment on these

matters, because I do think that they do deserve prompt

attention.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for West

Vancouver-Howe Sound, followed by the Member for Cariboo.

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS (West Vancouver–Howe Sound): I shan't be

long, Mr. Chairman. I have a number of requests to put to the

Minister, and some questions. My first request is an unusual

one. Would the Minister please assure me that his department

will not build any more highways in West Vancouver. That's No.

1. If I could have that assurance, I can assure the Minister

that he will be held in high esteem in that particular

municipality.

However, there are some other areas which need his

attention.

Interjection by an Hon. Member

MR. WILLIAMS: No more highways in West Vancouver, please. You've done

enough damage there. But I must say, Mr. Chairman — and I say this seriously

to the Minister — that great difficulties have been encountered in the construction

of the widening project of the Upper Levels Highway; and his staff, under very

difficult circumstances, performed their job admirably. That goes from the chief

engineer all the way down through his staff. On some of the performances of

some of the contractors, I can't quite say as much. But at least, so far as

the staff is concerned, they're doing their job.

Now, would the Minister please indicate to the committee why

his department has control and operation of ferries not in the

British Columbia ferry system. I draw attention particularly to

the ferry which runs between Darrell Bay and Woodfibre. It

seems to me that with the discontinuance of the townsite at

Woodfibre that that area now only serves to move employees from

the mainland, really, across to Woodfibre. And we're certainly

providing a service for Rayonier.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. WILLIAMS: For Rayonier, the company which operates at Woodfibre.

There's no longer any town there; they're virtually all gone. I think there

should be some reconsideration of the method of operation of that ferry, particularly

because the workmen move to and from every shift on that ferry. But that ferry

is not adequate to accommodate the number of passengers who now must travel.

As a matter of fact it's got quite serious. Because I now

understand that a consideration has been given to putting a bus

on the ferry in order to provide enough seats for the men to

sit down on when they're on the trip. And while this may

provide some comfort for the crossing it is very dangerous to

have passengers riding inside a closed bus on a ferry.

There was, two or three weeks ago in foggy conditions, a

near miss between a ferry and a commercial vessel heading for

Squamish, or from Squamish, I'm not sure which. If there had

been a collision and there had been men in the buses with the

doors closed, I'm not sure whether they would have all got out

safely.

I think that needs to be very carefully considered; a better

ferry, and some real consideration as to whether the highways

department should be responsible to provide that crossing.

Now moving farther up in the constituency, Mr Chairman,

would the Minister indicate to what extent his department is

exercising control over the highway which runs through the

Pemberton Valley from Mt. Currie through Duffy Lake and on to

Lillooet? That's a first class forestry road, largely built by

Evans Forest Products and it is being used increasingly by

members of the public. It constitutes a great saving in time in

moving to Kamloops from the northern part of the constituency,

access which never was available before.

I would just like to know if the department is taking

control of that road, and whether the highway district in North

Vancouver is going to be expanded to take in some part of that

responsibility or whether it will all be dealt with from

Lillooet.

Now the last question I have to ask. Has the department

shelved altogether the more direct connection with Lillooet, by

going through up Anderson Lake and Seton Lake and over the top

There is a sort of satisfactory jeep road that can be used from

time to time if you are courageous. I wondered if the

department has shelved consideration of that route for all

time. Then there's the other route which goes west from the

Pemberton Valley and around through to Bralorne. I believe that

route is almost complete. Is that to become a public access

road?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Highways.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I have nothing in answer to your last question. I

have nothing in this year's estimates for that. With regard to the Shalalth

Road, yes, we're giving that one up. With regard to Mt. Currie — Lillooet Lake,

that's the Jeffrey Creek to

[ Page

1348 ]

Cayuse Pass, there's money in the estimates to work on that

road this year. It'll be handled through the North Vancouver

office.

The Woodfibre ferry: I agree with you completely that now

that the townsite has been removed, it really isn't the

responsibility of the public or the Department of Highways to

continue to provide a ferry system to get the workers from

where they are to their place of employment.

To close the townsite was a decision made by the company.

When this was drawn to my attention, I wrote the company

because they had written to me asking that the ferry service be

improved and that we spend all sorts of money to do so. In a

letter to the company I pointed out that it was an action of

theirs that had caused this changed condition — which made the

requirement for additional ferry service necessary — and I felt

the company had some responsibility.

I suggested to them that if they wished that ferry service

improved, because the need came about through an action of

theirs, they should be willing to pay 50 per cent of the

additional costs. I'd be quite prepared on behalf of the

government to continue to participate for the rest.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Well, I didn't get a very satisfactory

answer from them. They want us to take the public purse and pay

the whole shot. I'm not very happy about doing that because it

was an action of theirs that brought this situation about. Did

they consult with the department before they took the action?

No, they didn't consult with the department before they took

the action; so it's my opinion that they have a responsibility

here too. So I'm digging my heels in a little because it is the

public purse and I feel that I should protect it as much as

possible — at the same time fulfill the needs and participate

where we can.

Thank you for your compliments to the staff. I agree with

you that they're a very good staff.

No more highways in West Vancouver–Howe Sound.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: No, alright, I'll agree with you. But

I'll remind you of those words perhaps later on as the years go

by. I think that pretty well answers all the matters you

raised.

The Member for Fort George (Mr. Nunweiler) claims highway

planning is behind. Well, had the planning and the work been

done some years ago, it probably would have been behind now

because it would be out of date.

Old equipment: I've indicated earlier that there's more money in the expenditures

this year for new equipment, and I hope to even increase that, The expropriation

in the east end of his riding: I'm not familiar with what went wrong there.

It was before my time, but we'll take a look at it.

The Member for Columbia River (Mr. Chabot) wanted some

answers. The Rose Pass route: when is it going to take place?

We have nothing right now for that. We haven't got anything for

the foreseeable future.

That Skookumchuck-Kimberley area: they were in to see me

about that. The Wasa cutoff to Skookumchuck: they were in to

see me, and because of their submissions, we are looking at

that whole bridge route thing again at the present time. They

want us to take another look at it and we're doing that.

The level crossing at Athalmer: we will take a look at that

to determine traffic; the pontoon bridge, we're looking into

that; the West Side Road, we're going to continue to work on

that this year.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Yes, there's money in there for that this

year.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Yes, there's a good chunk of money, just

about the figure you mentioned I think. It's not $30,000. I'll

tell you later. There's money in there. I don't want to have to

tell everybody how much money's in every vote. (Laughter).

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: In regard to the speeches made by the

Minister of Mines (Hon. Mr. Nimsick), I think the Member agrees

with me that the Minister of Mines always makes great

speeches.

AN HON. MEMBER: He talks through his hat sometimes.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: No, no, you're confusing yourself with

him.

With regard to the free ferries: I think the Minister of

Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Stupich) has made the same suggestion on

occasion. I looked at it even before I was Minister of Highways

and it sounds great, but you know what would happen.

AN HON. MEMBER: I know what would happen.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Well let me explain to you, just in case you don't.

Free ferries — it would

[ Page

1349 ]

mean that every Sunday driver in the lower mainland would

decide to take his family for a cruise, and they'd be lined up

there for miles. The whole system would break down. That's why

we simply can't have it free.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: They wanted the B.C. Ferries, and the

labour people suggested an increased ferry service. Certainly,

it will have to increase over the years, But I don't suggest or

ask you to hold your breath if you're waiting for any decrease

in fares.

So in this session as I've said, we're not looking at

increase; we're not looking at a decrease. So that means it

will remain pretty well the same. I think that answers all the

questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Cariboo.

MR. A.V. FRASER (Cariboo): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a

few things here to take up with the Minister on a province-wide

basis and also in my own riding. The first item I would like to

know from the Minister: is the Department of Highways looking

at an alternate route to the Fraser Canyon for the people from

the interior going to the coast?

You know the load on the canyon is getting heavier all the

time — not only the part of the canyon from Hope to Lytton but

also the Thompson Canyon from Lytton to Spences Bridge. I

believe that the planning department has taken some looks at

that but have any decisions been made; and where is the new

route going to be? Is it going up through the Coquihalla? Has a

policy decision been made? just where is it going to go? Quite

frankly, in the summertime now the Fraser Canyon is just about

impossible for tourists and local people alike.

Getting into my own riding: I've sent a list of the

requirements in my riding, and you kindly answered and said,

"Get hold of the staff before the session is over and we get

booted out of here."

I would just like to re-emphasize that my riding of Cariboo

has 3,800 miles of public roads, by far the largest mileage of

any riding in British Columbia. I'd like to point out to the

Minister, when he's thinking about the riding, that 10 per cent

of the 3,800 miles are paved. The rest of them are in one state

or another of being worn out, or are cow trails, and so on.

What I'm mostly concerned about, and where small starts have been made is Highway

20 from Williams Lake to Bella Coola. It's a distance of 300 miles. We got started

on it and 15 miles are done. We only have 285 miles left to go. The first 15

miles cost $4 million for the reconstruction and paving. There's a large task

ahead of us here, I'm concerned that something keep on going this year, in the

way of a tender call or day labour, and push from east to west — from the 15

miles that was done, which was Williams Lake going west. I'd certainly like

to see at least another 15 miles done this year or put up to contract so the

work can proceed. There's a large job to do there.

This goes through the Chilcotin Plateau, and I might say

that the local citizens don't want a blacktop road all the way

but they want a better standard of gravel road than they've

had. I would suggest that the first 50 miles out of Williams

Lake certainly should be reconstructed and capped. After that,

keep on improving the gravel base.

Highway 24 is another substandard road running south of 100

Mile House on Highway 97 through to No. 5 Road, Yellowhead.

It's a connecting route. In the Cariboo and in the northern

part of the province, and I think even in the southern part,

this would be a connector so we could have more circular trips.

This is another distance of 50 to 60 miles. There's a lot of

traffic on it now. It's a very poor grade of gravel road. I

think the Department of Highways should get on with that.

Part of this road is in the Kamloops riding but about

two-thirds of it is in the Cariboo riding. I think you have

some real tough construction where you leave the Yellowhead.

You've got rockwork coming west. But it's not that tough in the

Cariboo section, proceeding from Highway 97 east towards the

Yellowhead. I'd like your department, Mr. Chairman, through you

to the Minister, to give special consideration to these two

really main sideroads — that's what they are — in my riding for

this year.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. First Member for

Vancouver–Point Grey.

MR. P.L. McGEER (Vancouver–Point Grey): Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. I went without lunch today in the hopes of getting up

to say just a word or two on behalf of the highway system in

the rural part of Vancouver–Point Grey. Of course, during these

debates of the Minister of Highways — and I can remember with

the former Minister — animosity is completely gone. It's always

appropriate to compliment the Minister on the very fine job

that he's doing. Mr. Chairman, I really quite sincerely want to

compliment the Minister because I think that he's really doing

a fine job in highways. Perhaps he doesn't do quite so well

when he is the den mother for errant cabinet Ministers and

plays the role of Minister of "defence," but in highways

he's just excellent.

Mr. Chairman, I would like a Page here to take across a

development plan for the ferry system so that others will have

an opportunity to look. Would you take one up to the Press

gallery as well, after

[ Page 1350 ]

you've delivered it to the Minister.

Mr. Chairman, this is a plan that was drawn up a few years

ago for a ferry crossing from Iona Island to some station on

the other side. I know that's under debate at the present time.

One presumes that it will be somewhere on Gabriola Island. What

I want to draw the Minister's attention to is what can be done

in an exciting way with a new ferry terminal on the mainland

side. This particular plan calls merely for widening the

present Iona Island causeway out to about the standards of the

present causeway at Tsawwassen.

If the Minister will look at this plan, he will probably see

that there is a potential recreational area there — between

that Iona Island causeway, which now exists, and the North Arm

jetty, which now exists — half the size of Vancouver harbour.

The other thing he may notice, if he looks at it, is that since

the building of the North Arm jetty, silt has accumulated at

Iona Island to the point now where a huge unused potential

recreational area exists. It's large enough for two 18-hole

golf courses in an area — I'm talking about the lower mainland

area in general — that's short of greenbelt land.

Inside the two jetties — this great big "Y" that now exists

- it would be very easy to dredge a part of it produce a marina

that, at this stage, could hold at least 2,000 small boats but

which could eventually contain more berths for recreational

craft on the lower mainland than exist in all other marinas put

together. There's enough room there for small-boat moorage that

would last us into the hereafter.

The connection of this particular area to downtown Vancouver

is very close. It's not more than 10 minutes drive. A new

bridge is being installed at the present time — the Hudson

Street bridge — that will connect up with the Vancouver

International Airport. But that could be widened. I'd like the

Minister to tell us whether he is considering, at this

important time, providing additional width to that bridge, both

for rapid transit and for potentially increased traffic to

serve a ferry terminal.

Mr. Chairman, the point about it is that, were this to be

done now, we would be able to look after future ferry traffic

needs at the best possible dollar cost. If one is going to make

a visionary decision in this regard, now is the moment to do it — when that bridge is about to be built — and include this

safety factor for the future — except that it isn't a safety

factor. It's a use factor for the provincial ferry and highway

system.

An additional advantage of the particular plan that I've

sent across to the Minister is that one can develop picnic

areas for the people. You'll see room in the "Y" for a trailer

court area. One could even put in a housing project and hotels

along the strip that faces the North Arm jetty.

Imagine this, Mr. Speaker; having for visitors in North America the possibility

of taking a transcontinental flight from Ottawa about this time of year — when

Ottawa is just barely better in climate than Lower Slobbovia with all the ice

and snow. For a long weekend, these people can climb on an aircraft; fly out

to the Vancouver International Airport; be whisked away by a jitney to the hotel

right here next to this recreational area, where there would be charter fishing

boats and this marine underwater park that we were going to establish.

They could have a game of golf in February on this new golf

course, which incidentally will be very well fertilized because

the Iona sewage treatment plant is right there. They could have

their game of golf; go out and enjoy catching a salmon off the

bell buoy or right along the edge of Roberts Bank; come in and

enjoy a seafood dinner; and then there would be the new rapid

transit system that the Minister of Municipal Affairs is going

to put in, able to whisk them to downtown Vancouver where they

could enjoy the theatre, or plays or whatever it is.

Then, Mr. Minister, if we ever get that late-night ferry

that so many people talk about, even after that they could

consider coming across to the island. But these are all ways in

which an area that is now little more than a mud slide could be

created into a major recreational area, a delightful patch of

green, and a service area for this growing traffic volume. I'd

just like to hear the Minister's comments on this idea for

developing the ferry system.

Next, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister — now that

we're taking a new look at the ferry system — if he'd like to

make a comment on the possibility of having one lane for

reservations.

This is so that people who are on tour or people who have

important meetings can get a commitment in advance that their

sport will be saved. Charge a premium for it — $1, $2,

whatever it is — but so that people know if they have to get a

particular ferry sailing they can do so.

AN HON. MEMBER: He's already answered that question.

MR. McGEER: Well, we can keep asking him.

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister if he'd think

again too about a late-night sailing. As I understand, what the

people from the island would like to have most is a midnight

sailing from Vancouver — heaven knows why they want to be in

Vancouver until 11: 00 or 11:30 at night.

One was this could be done, Mr. Chairman, is to dispense with the 4 o'clock

sailing. Then what we would be able to have is a sailing instead starting at

6 o'clock. Then the regular shift would finish at 2:00 in the morning, with

a 12 o'clock sailing from the Vancouver side. One wouldn't have to put on new

crews; one would just have to forego a less important

[ Page

1351 ]

sailing for a more important sailing. I wonder if the

Minister might be prepared to make a try at the system of

undertaking a partial late-night sailing in that way.

Once more, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister if

some consideration might not be given to the ferry service

regarding the movement of heavy trucks off the ferries first.

I've witnessed too often the risks that motorists take in

attempting to get past the lumbering trucks that have got off

the ferry first and are holding the traffic up. As they attempt

to get by these trucks, they meet the other motorists who

started out late and who are coming 75 miles an hour down the

highway, trying to make the ferry before it leaves the

dock.

I am certain that many fatal accidents have been caused over

the years because of this policy of allowing the slow traffic

and large trucks to lumber off the ferry first and get in a

postion where they plug and block the faster vehicular

traffic.

Unlike the Member for West Vancouver–Howe Sound (Mr.

Williams), I don't wish to make of the Minister a request that

no highways be built in Vancouver–Point Grey. Mr. Chairman, I'd

like to specifically request that improvement be made in the

access roads to the University of British Columbia.

Mr. Chairman, believe it or not, there's a city of 20,000

people out there — more than 20,000, probably closer to 25,000 — that empties and fills up once a day.

Very few people live there. They all arrive by car because,

Mr. Chairman, the bus service really isn't that great to the

campus. I'm not saying that it's any worse than any other area

that's served by buses, but it still isn't adequate to carry

20,000 people there and home again. So twice a day there are

these traffic jams.

One is always certain that this is going to be cured by just

a few miles of road being built, and each year we're

disappointed. Well, Mr. Chairman, the specific roadlinks that

need to be improved are from 29th Avenue through to 16th.

There's a road that runs through the bush there which isn't

paved and which has to be graded, though I don't think very

often, by sending heavy equipment out — but in any event not

enough to keep it in shape. So why not just pave it and have

done? Then you won't need to keep bringing these lumbering

graders out to do this little stretch of road, which can't be

more than 11 1/2 to 2 miles.

The road going out, Marine Drive, started out in a spectacular fashion as a

four-lane divided highway all the way out to the Shaughnessy Golf Course, and

then it kind of petered out about half a mile beyond the Shaughnessy Golf Course.

One wonders why it was never properly finished. I'd like to ask the Minister

if he intends to extend that highway significantly past Shaughnessy Golf Course

to where it was intended to go, namely the University of British Columbia, and

when that would be done.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Highways.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I understand that the president of the

university wants to come and see me about that and a number of

other items relating to the roads around the university.

With regard to instructions to the ferry crews to hold the

trucks once they're off the ships until the faster traffic is

past, this was looked at some time previously and it was

decided that it not be done. We'll take another look at it.

I would remind you in the meantime that the Pat Bay road is

now four lanes and there's going to be some four-lane on the

other side.

MR. McGEER: Even with four lanes you find that people skid

out from behind. It's dangerous.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: All right. We'll take another look at

it.

Late-night sailings: when the stretched ferries go on the

Nanaimo-Vancouver run, the shift requirements of the new

schedule — it will take longer for them to make a run and turn

around — I understand will in essence give us a late-night

ferry to Vancouver Island. The time will have to be increased

for each shift; when you start and take a 21/2 hour turnaround

instead of a 2 1/4 hour turnaround, you then have actually a

late-night ferry. So that in all probability will be coming up

to Vancouver Island from Vancouver.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Not the Swartz Bay, no. It's the natural

shift work-out, you see. Two full shifts will get us to a much

later period in the evening.

One lane for reservations: well, it's the whole business of

reservations and people who have been waiting for hours seeing

other people go aboard ahead of them.

The Hudson Street bridge: the width of the bridge is geared

to the capacity of the street system in Vancouver to carry that

traffic. The widening of the Hudson Street bridge would not

solve the problem, because the street capacity of Vancouver,

into which it.'s feeding, just isn't great enough to handle any

more traffic that can go on the existing designed width of the

Hudson Street bridge. There would have to be a massive re-do of

the Vancouver city street system and a massive change in the

attitudes of people towards driving before the Hudson Street

bridge would serve what you propose.

[ Page 1352 ]

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Omineca.

MR. D.T. KELLY (Omineca): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to speak to the Minister concerning some of the

things that I think are very prominent concerning highways in

Omineca.

I'd like to relate back seven years ago to the first time I

arrived in Omineca. Just west of Fraser Lake there is a

one-way bridge, a wooden, one-way structure on Highway 16.

Within a quarter-of-a-mile of this highway there is a railroad

crossing.

At that time there had been preparations made for a new

construction at that point. In fact on the side of the road

there was a sign that said "Pardon the Inconvenience,"

or something to that effect.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: That was seven years ago, wasn't it?

MR. KELLY: Seven years ago, Mr. Minister, through you, Mr.

Chairman. You know, they actually made the cuts for the new

highway and the new overpass and put in the mounds of dirt that

were required to build a bridge over the top of the crossing

and the cut and a fill in towards where the new bridge would be

located. You know, I'm thinking of asking the Department of

Lands, Forests and Water Resources if I could get a permit to

cut the timber that's growing on that ramp and on the mounds of

earth. No kidding, the trees are five or six feet high. In

another few years I think they would be fit for sawlogs of some

sort.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Is there still a one-way bridge on

Highway 16?

MR. KELLY: That's a one-way bridge. That's correct. On a

main highway, on the northern transprovincial highway.

I see you have in your estimates, Mr. Minister, through you,

Mr. Chairman, $150,000, I believe it is, for part of that

construction. But I am very concerned, because in this

particular instance many people have been either injured or

killed at this location, either through one or the other of

these two obstructions — the overpass has a detour through

where the old road would have led and the ramp leading onto the

bridge is a downhill ramp.

In the wintertime, when the ice is on the road and it's

snowing, we have had several accidents, where trucks have gone

into the river, where men have been rescued unconscious. In one

case a man was left permanently disabled, although his life was

saved. He received brain damage through an accident that

occurred there.

Two people have been killed within a few yards of the crossing that I am referring

to.

I would consider, Mr. Minister, through you Mr. Chairman,

that if you were to put all the money that is to be allowed for

other projects in that area this year into that bridge — I

would like to see that bridge started and in fact a final date

sought as to the completion of this project.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: That's the Nechako River bridge, is

it?

MR. KELLY: No, Mr. Minister, that is the Stellako River

bridge and Stellako overhead — 802 is the project number. The

complete project, of course, is $710,000. If it were even just

doubled, or half the project undertaken this year, I think that

at least we could see a completion date for the end of next

year. This would really be a benefit to the whole province.

The actual damage that is being created at that location I

would have said would have paid for half the construction in

the first place. It's just gone too long, that's all there is

to it.

Mr. Chairman, although maybe Cariboo does have the most

miles of road in its constituency in comparison to all the

other constituencies in the province, I think I have the

highest number of gravel roads, or dirt roads, or any other

kind of roads, including mining roads. It's been a problem for

the fellows working on the highways to find sufficient gravel

to fill the potholes on these roads.

I have lived in the rural part of the province a lot of my

life and I have found that if people have decent roads — even

if they are only gravel roads that are reasonably smooth — they

are reasonably happy about this. They don't have to be

high-speed roads.

On the main travelled rural roads I would like to see a good

gravelling programme go on this year. We haven't had any gravel

on our roads up there since I moved there, that I know of.

Mr. Minister, through you Mr. Chairman, yesterday the Hon.

Member for Cariboo (Mr. Fraser) mentioned to you about the

speed limits. I don't know whether I'm supporting him or he's

supporting me, because I did speak about it in my maiden

speech.

I am anxious to see the speed limits increased in those

parts of the province where the roads are up to that standard.

I don't know how you would apply this increase, but I think

that at least the model of car would have something to do with

it. If it's a brand new car, I'm quite sure that that car is

adequate to cover those roads without flying to pieces or

falling apart because of the construction. Old model cars I

don't think can hack it.

I don't believe for a second that there is a person in this room who doesn't

at some time drive at 70 miles an hour on our roads, even if they're listed

at 60 miles an hour. I think all you have to do is drive

[ Page

1353 ]

towards the ferry on a Friday afternoon and you will see

people going above the speed limit, in many cases much faster

than the speed that I'm asking for. I think that a speed of 70

miles an hour would be considered a decent rate of speed.

In many cases if you traverse the highways of the province,

you will see that the buses, the freight trucks and everything

else are going several miles above the posted speed limit. I

think that we would only be doing them a favour to bring speed

limits to that region so that they won't have to break the law

to travel from point to point.

A lot of these people are professional drivers. If a man

isn't qualified to drive that fast he shouldn't drive that

fast. But I think that if the roads are there, and especially

with the modern equipment they've built now, this speed limit

wouldn't be out of order. I would think that some of the

highways could be posed at a higher rate of speed than at

present.

A problem that we've had in our riding, Mr. Minister — and I

don't know whether it's prevalent all over the province — is

that because of the police being spaced at distant points as

far as our riding is concerned, we've noticed that whenever an

emergency vehicle was operating, and especially if they're

pulling a wreck out of a ditch or down the highway, with all

their warning lights and blinkers going people at large don't

seem to recognize them.

Just recently, at the very location I was referring to a

minute ago where this bridge and railroad crossing are located,

a person went in the ditch. The wrecker came down to haul him

out and in the course of pulling out this car that was several

yards off the road, another car came along and, although his

lights were very bright and very clear, this other man drove

into the wrecker and seriously hurt the operator. I feel that

the colour of these wreckers' lights should be changed to red

or some other colour, because I don't feel that people are

recognizing the amber lights as indicating that it's necessary

to slow down or stop or at least to make sure they avoid what

is going on. They just shoot past these particular

wreckers.

I've had two or three of them complain to me that this was

happening all the time. For some reason or other the public

needs to be educated as to what is going on — that these lights

are going they are obliged by law to slow down.

One other thing that I was concerned about was that not long

ago a bypass was put in at Houston. In doing so the highway

came out in a different part of town from where it was

originally routed. In coming out at this different location, of

course, it had bypassed some of the service stations.

In most instances the municipality will allow the service

station to put a sign that there's a particular garage down

this road a block or so, because he's been bypassed. They

usually give him some assistance in having the traffic directed

to his garage. But in this particular case the garage is now located so far back from

the main highway that most people won't even consider going

near him because of the inconvenience of having to drive back

to that particular location.

It's my feeling, Mr. Chairman, that this man should have

been compensated for this particular action. He's serving the

travelling public. When that road was re-routed he should have

been considered; they should either have allowed for a new

establishment for him or at least purchased his property and

turned it into another type of business.

But here he is. That's the only kind of business he knows.

No property is available for him and his business has been

depreciated considerably. I am of the opinion that this man

should be compensated for the loss of his business, as should

any other man in the same particular kind of business who is

affected by a re-routing of a highway. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for North Peace

River.

MR. D.E. SMITH (North Peace River): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I see the Hon. Minister has left the chamber for a few minutes,

so I'll deal with a couple of local problems. I know that his

assistants who are sitting here are very familiar with them.

Then I'll get around to some other items.

While I'm on the matter of local problems, I would like to

bring to the Minister's attention a problem regarding the

replacement of a bridge at the Halfway River on Highway 29.

This is the highway between Fort St. John and Hudson Hope.

The bridge is in a very sad state of repair and while it is

adequate to handle traffic, part of the bridge is an old bridge

and the rest of it is presently a Bailey bridge that replaces a

span that fell down. I understand plans are in the mill for the

redesign of that bridge. I believe there was some problem with

regard to the original design, and the information I had from

the Department of Highways is that you are redesigning the type

of structure that you would use there in replacement of the

existing facility.

One of the problems, of course, with the existing facility

is that it is very narrow. While it can accommodate some

traffic, anything that is a wide load cannot go between Fort

St. John and Hudson Hope via the Halfway River and must reroute

by Dawson Creek and Chetwynd, a distance of sometimes another

100 miles. I would like to know from the Minister the situation

concerning the replacement of the Halfway River bridge and when

we could expect the tender to be called on that particular

project.

There is one other project that I believe is of immediate concern. As a matter

of fact, I know it is of immediate concern to the residents that live in the

Cecil Lake area on Highway 103, which is east from

[ Page

1354 ]

Fort St. John. I appreciate the fact that the Minister has

indicated there will be some more paving done in that area this

year to extend what is presently in existence. We have a very

bad problem on the Beatton River hill itself. The department is

well aware of the problem. It is a slide area that we have to

get across and we have a very sharp switchback. It is unstable

ground, it has been the source of consternation to the people

who have to travel between Fort St. John and Cecil Lake for

years.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: That's on "103."

MR. SMITH: That's on "103", yes.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: What area — Boundary Lake?

MR. SMITH: The highway going from Fort St. John to Boundary

Lake and the Beatton River hill that we have to cross to get to

the Boundary Lake area.

There is a bad slide there. It was as a result of shifting

ground, and it looks to me like they will have to eventually

reroute that particular

section of road if that is possible. I

know the engineering staff have looked at it but it is not the

easiest thing in the world to find a location on the Beatton

River hill that looks like it will be stable location for a new

road. The suggestion has been made to me by the engineer in

Fort St. John that we get across that slide area as quickly as

possible and, instead of the sharp switchback, continue along

in a westerly direction to get up the hill at a little

different location than at present.

I would like to know what will be done in that area because

it is a source of real concern particularly to heavily-loaded

trucks. They come up and they hit that switchback. In

wintertime they spin out and we have trailers across the road

and a number of problems in that respect.

There are a couple of other items that I would like to raise

with the Minister at this time. One is the recommendations made

by the British Columbia Chamber of Commerce. A couple of them

at least, are regarding highways in the Province of British

Columbia.

One of the first I would like to refer to is the

investigation of accidents. Now I think we are all aware that

sometimes the accidents occur because of road conditions and

quite often these bad accidents occur because of driver

problems. It may be the fault of the driver or it may be the

fault of the road.

The B.C. Chamber of Commerce has suggested to the Minister that where we have

an increasing frequency of accidents in certain areas, a board of researchers

be employed by the Department of Highways to investigate such accidents and

to recommend to the Department of Highways what they w