Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 16 (33rd Legislature, 1st Session)

33-1-16

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 30 May, 1986. rime - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Pres enting Reports by Standing and Sp ecial Comm ittees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a min isterial statement.

Madam Speaker, I would like to bring to the attention of members of the House a special anniv ersary that is occurring today which marks the 50th year of operation of the School Safety Patrol Program in the City of Winnipeg, Nearly 8,000 school patrollers from across the province, and 100 special guests from Ottawa's School Patrol Program are assem bling on the grounds of the Legislature this morning to take

part in a mammoth parade. The special events that are occurring today have been organized by a comm ittee representing all 11 Winnipeg School Divisions, the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, the Man itoba Motor Leag ue, parents, and police. The School Patrol Program was init iated in 1936, by Louise Stapler , a teacher at Greenway School in Winnipeg. The Safety Bureau of the Winnipeg Board of Trade, forerunner of the Chamber of Commerce, later organized these patrols on a city-wide basis.

These patrols, the first of their kind in Canada, which came into being over the last 50 years, see over 200,000 individuals, representing hund reds of commun ities and school divisions across the province, participating in school patrol programs. The School Safety Patrol Program has provided a valuable opportunity for childr en to take their lessons of safety education learned in the classroom, and apply that knowledge to assist their commun iy.

In addition to the nurturing of safe traffic habits, the School Patrol Program has developed the skills of our children in the areas of citizenship, leadership, and responsibil ity . These young people seldom receive the reco gnition they justly deserve for the dedicated service they provide within their commun ities. You can see them at their stations before most of their classmates are at school in the morning, and on duty after most of their friends have gone home in the afternoon.

These young ambassadors provide a priceless service that enhan ces the li ves of chil dren, parents, and motorists, making our communities a safer place to live. 440 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to add the congratulations and the support of this very worthwhile program from the members on this side of the House and to support what the Minister has said.

We agree that giving the students the opportunity to learn about the safety and the problems of the hig hways is important; we also believe that the key ingr edient to this program of asking young childr en to become involved in the care and responsi bi lit y of their colleagues only helps and enha nces their leadership and responsibility levels. it's a worthwhile program and we salute the young am bassadors who are coming from outside the province, and those who have gone thr ough the program in the past, and those who are presently in it. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . .

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK introduced, by leave, Bill No. 11,

An Act to amend The Planning Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'amenagement du territoire. HON. A. MACKLING introduced, by leave, Bill No. 8,

An Act to amend The Real Estate Brokers Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les courtiers en immeubles. HON. J. STORIE introduced, by leave, Bill No. 9,

An Act to amend The Public Schools Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les ecoles publiques. HON. G. LECUYER intr oduced, by leave, Bill No. 10, The Mani toba Ha zardous Waste Ma nagement Corporation Act;

Loi sur la Corporation manitobaine de gestion des dechets dangereux. (Recommended by Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor) HON. R. PENNER introduced, by leave, Bill No. 12,

An Act to amend The Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Conflict of Int erest Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les con flits d'int eret au sein de I' Assemblee legi slative et due Conseil executif. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before we move to Oral Questions, I'd like to direct attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 18 students of Grade 5 from St. Francois Xavier School. These students are under the direction of Miss Dawn Bohonof, and the school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Lakeside. On behalf of all the members, I'd like to welcome you to the Legisla tive Assembly this morning.

Friday, 30 May, 1986 ORAL QUESTIONS Ft. Garry Women's Resource Centre - decision of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Kirkfield Park . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, Madam Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Commun ity Services . Last night I understand that the Fort Garry Women 's Resource Centre Board held an eme rgency meeting to discuss the affairs of lettin g staff go and whether they would close the centre . I understand they have set a deadline of June 19, while terminating four positions and stopping all direct services, leaving a staff of one-and-a-half .

Could the Minister assure the House and the Fort Garry Women's Resource Centre that a decision will be made by that date so that this valuable service will not be lost to the community? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou ra ble Ministe r of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speake r, the proposal will be going to Cabinet and will probably be completed by that date . I, of course, can never give absolute assurance of that . Agreements between colleges MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Education .

There are a number of special agreements between the Province of Manitoba and the provinces to the west of us, relating to specific educational entitlements of Manitoba children to be trained and obtain their educational degrees in the western universities . In particular, I am referring to children being allowed to go to a veterinary college in the west. My question to the Minister, are the number of agreements between these provinces in full effect and up-to-date? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I'll have to take that question as notice .

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry with a supplementary . MR. C. BIRT: Yes, Madam Speaker . While the Minister is making inquiry on that particular point , I'm wondering if he'd enquire as to the reasons why the agreement between the Province of British Columbia and the Province of Manitoba has not been renewed to allow the audiology program that is offered in British Columbia for Manitoba students to participate and attend that school. HON. J. STORIE: I will take that as notice as well, Madam Speaker . 441 Child abuse MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert . MR. G.

Mercier: Madam Speaker, a questio n to the Minister of Community Services . She, having met with a num ber of people vitally interested in the whole question of child abuse , I wonder if she could announce to the House whether she is prepared to take any interim steps to deal with this question of child abuse . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services . HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker , we did meet with the medical people , police people, Child and Family Serv ice people last night to go over the current situation and identify any problems from their perspective in the way the current situation is operating . We did discuss with them the terms of reference of the study which I had already announced would take place as an independent review and got their comments and suggestions .

At the same time, we told them that we would be issuing an interim directive, prior to the time when we get a recommendation from that consultant , to resolve the way the different experts in the field of child abuse work together. Naturally they bring different experience and concern and one of the problems that seems to be emerging is that , when there is a dispute, there is not a clear understanding of who has the legal authori ty and responsib ility, or as to how the differen t opinions could be constructively resolved.

We have found in working with the Native children's issue, that a directive which provided for a rapid dispute resolution process , whereby if there was an irresolvable difference of opinion in the people involved in the decis ion, they could immediately request, from the director , mediation service to resolve the issue, hopefully to everyone's satisfaction , but to allow that second stage of review and discussion . Also attending the meeting was the newly appointed Winnipeg Co-ordinator for Child Abuse and the Provincial Co-ordinator.

I am also very happy to say that the Winnipeg Co-ordinator will shortly have at his disposal two trainers who will be working to train the workers in the field better to understand the issue. Some people still are arguing that you need a very small core of experts. But the extent of the problem we're finding , some estimates are that up to 40 percent of the cases in the Child and Family Service system have an element of child abuse . So although we do need the central expertise , we also require training of the wor kers in the field. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I would ask the Minister if she would undertake to table in the House, for the information of members , a copy of the interim directive and also advise the House in due course as to the results of the - pardon me, I don't think the Minister heard . Madam Speaker, I would ask the Minister if she would undertake to table in the House,

Friday, 30 May, 1986 for the information of members, a copy of the interim directive and also advise the House when the inquiry has been completed. HON. M. SMITH: I'll be happy to do that. I think our estimate at the moment of when we will have the agreement is around Tuesday, and I'll be happy to table the terms of reference. We are looking at a November reporting date with the tabling of the report in the next Session. We've also included though, in the terms , if there are interim recommendations for any action, they would be welcomed .

But, in addition , we are putting in the interim directive to help sort out. One of the problems, I guess with the child abuse area, is that, although a lot of leadership is coming from the Child and Family Service area, those workers alone can't begin to deal with all of the problems . It's very important that we build a co-operative approach. There has been progress made, but I guess the complexity and the enormity of the problem does call for an extra type of directive to help guide the multidisciplinary teams . Bilingual Statutes - cost of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert . MR. G.

MERCIER: Thank you , Madam Speake r. A question to the Attorney-General, Madam Speaker. On December 4, I wrote to him requesting him to advise me as to the amount of the additional cost caused by his undertaking to publish the laws of Manitoba in a bilingual double-column format so that both texts will appear on the same page , rat her than the present practice, particularly in view of the demand to date for statu tes in the French language. On December 23, 1985, the Attorney-General advised me that there is no additional cost to the proposal to publish the laws of Manitoba in a bilingual, double-column format .

My question to him, Madam Speaker, is: could he then explain to the House why the cost of a complete set of statutes has risen from $645 last year to $1,219 this year, and why the annual cost of updating the statutes has been doubled? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: The cost to which the member refers has nothing to do with the way in which the bilingual statutes are printed, but are just normal price increases because, in fact, we have not yet begun to print the continuing consolidated with the bilingual.

There will be one or two bills in bilingual format , but the continual and consolidated statutes will continue in the way in which they are for the rest of this fiscal year. So the cost increases to wh ich he refers do not relate to the cost of printing the bilingual statutes . I don't know what figures he has there, but I am willing to examine the figures that he has, and relate it to what is actually taking place in this fiscal year.

I should say, finally, Madam Speaker, that the order of the Supreme Court was that the statutes from now on, and that will follow when we redo the continuing consolidated statutes, be in the same way that the 442 Canadian statutes are ; that is, English on one side, and French on the other . That 's what we mean by the double column . The Queen's Printer has estimated , on the basis of estimates received, that in fact is the cheapest way of doing the bilingu al statutes. But that will emerge in the following fiscal year. Highways construction - status of MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Springfield. MR.

G. ROCH: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question for the Honourable Ministe r of Highways. While I'm on my feet, I would like to thank him for responding to my individual requests in my past. But, given the fact that approximately $12 million has been cut from the Department of Highway's budget, what then is the status of those highways and provincial roads which, until recently, were under construction? What is the status of those which had been proposed , some of them as recently as the last provincial election? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker , that is a very broad question. This will be dealt with in detail during the Estimates process . I understand that the Department of Highways and Transportatio n will be in Committee in Estimates , the first department in the next week, so the Opposition membe rs will have an opportunity to discuss those projects . MR. G. ROCH: Will the repair and maintenance of the existing network of provincial roads and highways suffer from the cutbacks announced on Budget night because, at present , repairs and maintenance of existing roads have been sparse and minimal. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker , I should point out that the maintenance portion of the Budget is receiving more dollars than it has in the past, so there will be no reduction at all in the maintenanc e function. Insofar as the construction element of the Budget , I indicated during my Budget speech that there is not a $12 million reduction in the actua l expenditures , only about $3 million from last year, Madam Speaker.

There are a number of other factors to consider , the fact that oil prices have reduced substantially , asphalt price have been reduced, which should result in about an equal amount of work being done this year, as was done in the past year. MR. G.

ROCH: To be more specific, Madam Speaker , will those roads which were currently under construction in Springfield , and those which were either proposed or promised by the former MLA for Springfield, both before and during the recent election campaign, will they be constructed, as origina lly planned and proposed , or is this government going to try and punish the people of Springfield , as in the case of the closing of the Falcon ski slope, cancellation of Cook's Creek diverson project, to name but a couple of examples? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, as I've indicated, the details of the construction budget will be discussed during the Estimates process.

Friday, 30 May, 1986 Community Mental Health Course - eligibility and funding MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie . MR. E. CONNERY : Madam Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Minister of Community Services. The government has announced the closing of the School of Psychiatric Nursing at Portage la Prairie and that left a terrible gap, I believe, in the availability of adequately trained people in mental retardation. She subsequently announced a Community Mental Health Course at Red River Community College .

Will she tell me how the course is being funded and who will be eligible for the course? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Community Services . HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speake r, the Communit y Mental Health Course at Red River does not come under my jurisdiction.

The psych nursing training that's related to the Portage la Prairie Psych Nursing School, the delivery of that prog ram, is being carried on in two centres, rather than three, but with the same number of stud ents, the same mental retardation component in theory and practice, plus the development of an additional special ity component and practic implacement from the oth er centres. The supply of psych nurses , measured against the demand in our system and in the mental health and geriatric psychology areas , is being monitored, and at the moment we feel the supply does match the demand.

If the member , however, is refer ri ng to training required by the community, delivery of mental retardation services, the training there is in quite a variety of forms, some of it on-site , being delivered to the caretakers ; some is occurring in the day activity programming; and there may be some people who are attending the course he identified who will find their way into that system, because there's some very common elements in support of disabled people who are living in the community. MR. E. CONNERY: A supplementary, Madam Speaker . A specific question was asked .

The question was asked : how is the course at Red River College being funded and who will be allowed to attend the course? I am told it is being restricted to residents of the Core Area , therefore, precluding other residents of Manitoba from taking this course . Would somebody give me a direct answer? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker , given that that falls under my jurisdiction, I will take that question as notice and report back to the House. MR. E. CONNERY: A further supplementary.

There is a concern from the Registered Psychiatric Nurses that the course will not be up to the normal standards and, 443 therefore , the service to the mentally retarded . Will they assure us that the standards will be there? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speake r, I indicated that I would be taking that question as notice , but I can assure him that Red River Community College , or any other community college, would not be offering a course unless it was up to standard. Water Rates - Winnipeg Hydro MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. J.

ERNST: Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs. In the Budget Estimates , it indicated that water power rental rates to the City of Winnipeg would be increasing some 67 percent. Presumably, that money , Madam Speaker , is in the Budge t, as government policy, and is unlikely to be changed . Can the Minister fir st indicate if he is going to be meeting with City of Winnipeg offic ials in the very near future? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minist er of Urban Affairs. HON. G.

DOER: Yes, Madam Speak er, the Minister of Financ e and myself will be meeting with the mayor this afternoon to review the provisions in the Budget , not to change the provisions in the Budget , but to look at other factors , such as, the surplus of profit over Budg et from last year; to look at the impact of the Budget on the city ; and to look at the fact that the anticipated charge from Manitoba Hydro to Winnipeg Hydro was $33 million last year and it only came in at $29 , and what will that be for this year. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you very much for the answer.

The fact of the matter is, though, I wonder what the purpose of the meeti ng is, if simple discussions are going to take place , and the fact that there is going to be a $5 million short fall in the City of Winnipeg Hydro revenues as a result of this Budget situation . Can the Minister explain really what they are going to talk about , apart from beating arou nd the bush? HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker, the member opposit e is using different figures than the city is using .

We have figures and projections , we're going to sit down and discuss what we anticipate will be the surplus, based on the direct cost of water and the indirect costs through Manitoba Hydro . We think it is fair to sit down and compare numbers and we're going to do that this afterno on. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for Charleswood with a supplementary, with no

preamble . MR. J. ERNST: As a matter of fact , I have a question for the Minister of Sport, if I may, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Proceed.

Friday, 30 May, 1986 Baseball Stadium - status of MR. J. ERNST: In light of the fact that it's apparent the Tuscon Toros will not be coming to Winnipeg and the fact that the Minister had announ ced at some earlier time a substantial program for sport facilities for Winnipeg, can the Minister tell the House, is that going to continue? Will that program proceed regardless of whether AAA baseball comes to Winnipeg or not? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Sport . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Madam Speaker, if the negotiations that we had with the city were in good faith, I thi nk it will continue .

I think that the province always stated that the first priority was facilities for amateur sports, although if we could help bring professional baseball here, that was a plus. The city, the mayor stated also , agreed that Winnipeg was lagging behind any of the other cities in Canada on faciliti es for amateur sport and also said that they had been neglected in the past. We are ready to discuss with the city the option, I would hope, of follo wing with the agreement that we have had as dealing with amateur sport .

Drivers' licences - suspension re failure to honour time payment MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. Earlier in this Session, the Minister indicated that a penalty of removing the driver's licence for failure to pay an insurance premium was necessary . I've subsequently learned that neither Saskatchewan, nor British Columbia, who have similar schemes, find it necessary to impose such a penalty.

Will he undertake a review of the inapropriateness of this penalty? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MPIC . HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The optive

section is found in The Highway Traffic Act. I believe that particular

section is being reviewed at the present time. Seat belts - crackdown on use MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I would like to ask a question to to the Minister of Highways that follows upon the question I posed yesterday, that dealing with seat belts . I'm wondering if the Minister can now disclose to the House what the 1984 results were versus 1983, of deaths and injuries, given the fact that within this province, seat belt usage jumped to 60 percent from roughly 10 percent in 1983. 444 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways . HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, as I indicated yesterday, the statistical basis does not hold true necessarily from year to year. The assumptions vary and it is clear that the usage was not maintained at a high level of about 80 percent, which was certainl y one of the assumptions that went into the statistical predictions that were made on the saving of lives because of the use of seat belts. So there was additional deaths. Howev er, I pointed out yesterday that 70 percent to 75 percent of those deaths occurred with people who were not wearing seat belts at that particular time.

That is of grave concern, obviously, and one of the reason s we are undertaking to improve the seat belt usage in the province. MR. C. MANNESS: Can the Minister indicate to me whether or not the two facts I am about to give are accurate? I may tell him - it probably comes as no surprise to him - they have been developed by Mr. Martens of Sanford , who has a vital interest in this area. In 1984, there were roughly 14 more people killed within the moto r vehicle, and that there were 924 more people that were injured in 1984 tha n in 1983 when seat belt usage was six-fold highe r. MADAM SPEAKER: Order, please.

Beauchesne, Citation 362 states that: "It is the Member's duty to ascertain the truth of any statemen t before he brings it to the attention of Parliament. " It is not in order to ask the Minister to ascertain the truth of statements a member is bringing. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will assume, then, my numbers were correct and ask the Minister when members of this House, and when the province, might expect a report on the 1985, preliminary or otherw ise , 1985 statistics regarding deaths and injuries on the highways of Manitoba? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I will undertake to get that information.

I believe the 1985 statistics are available and we should be able to provide that to the House, Madam Speaker. Free trade - trucking industry MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is also for the Minister of Highways and Transportation .

In view of the fact that there have been various statemen ts recently expr essing concern about the impacts of proposed deregulat ion and free trade in the trucking industry, most recently statements made by the Manitoba Trucking Association, I would like to ask the Minister what contact he has had with his provincial colleagues, with the Federal Government , and with industry and labour with regard to this very important matter .

Friday, 30 May, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nis ter of Hi ghways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Madam Speaker, there has been extensive consultation un dertaken by the department, by my department and myself, with other Ministers across the count ry, and the Federal Min ister, as well as ind ustry and labour on the issue of trucking deregulation particula rly, although deregulation of all of the transportation modes.

We do have a great deal of concern, and we have expressed that on numerous occasions to the Federal Minister and to the other provinces, with regard to trucking deregulation because we have so much at stake here in the Province of Manitoba. Nine of Canada's 15 largest trucking firms are headq uartered here; there is a lot of employment and we are concerned about the impact that this will have on the viability of Manitoba trucking firms, and the potential for U.S. dom ination of trucking firms in Canada and Manitoba, in particula r.

I've been disappointed with the react ion of the Federal Minister and other provinces at times, Madam Speaker, but we have continued to put forward the position that we should move cautiously and prudently and slowly with regard to deregulation in order that we ascertain the implications on all segments of the ind ustry before we move ahead, to ensure that safety is protected and jobs are protected in the Province of Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson with a supplement ary. Train derailment, Northern Manitoba MR. S.

ASHTON: No, Madam Speaker, it's another question this time for the Minister of the Environment. I'd like to ask the Minister if he could give this House an update on the recent train derailment in the area of Pikwitonei. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LEC UYER: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Yes, as of Wednesday night, I believe some 4,000 gallons of oil had been recovered from the spill in the area. lt appears, Madam Speaker, that there's close to one complete car that has emptied into the pond which is blocked from draining into the water supply of the Town of Pikwitonei; and as well the department has ordered two other dikes be put up to further afford additional prote ction. We expect that the fuel will be pretty well completely recovered and the area cleaned up by early of next week. The work in that area will continue throughout the weekend.

Any damage that is evident appears to be minimal as we had expected. Northern Flood Agreement settlement outstanding liabilities MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-G eneral. HON. R. PENNER: Madam Speaker, on Friday, 16 May 1986, the Leader of the Opposition asked a number 445 of questions in this House about the Northern Flood Agreement, one of which I took as notice, and that related to this question. He asked if the Attorney General could ind icate whether or not the province assumes total li abil ity unde r the Northern Flood Agreement. He said that Manitoba Hydro was default.

His premise was, Madam Speaker, knowing that there are three parties to the agreement; first of all, there are four parties to the agreement, not three. Second ly, in response to the question, no, the Manitoba Government does not assume liability under the agreement should the Manitoba Hydro default on its commitments. Home Economics Directorate - status of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Health.

On Wednesday, the Minister indicated to the Member for Pembina that he would find out why the tour home economist specialists were told they could not attend the June 3 major program planning and training annual workshop. In light of the fact that it is the annual planning and training and the major workshop for home economists in health and agriculture, and that these specialists train the field home economists, could the Minister inform the House if that directiv e has been changed and that they will now be able to go? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, the situation was when it was decided that the four home economists would no longer be served in the department. although the situation is - supposing the people are still there - the emplo yees are still there until the decision is made where the expertise and where the services would be coming from, either Commu nity Services or Agriculture and so on. The agenda, unknown to me, of this meeting - you have to remember that this conference is internal - is for the Department of Health, financed by the Department of Health. The agenda was changed.

There was a request to change the agenda and there was no longer any reason for the home economists to attend this meeting because they were dealing with questions concerning the department at this time. The chief economist will be atten ding the conference also. They are no longer dealing at the conference. There's nothing on the agenda dealing with money management, housing and those things, so there's no reason for these people to attend this conference . . . MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Yes, Madam Speaker, is the Minis ter telling us that the conference, that is the major planning and training event of the year for 28 home economists in health and agriculture, that the agenda has changed and that the home economists will not be dealing with any training at all at this conference? Maybe the Minis ter could tell us why the conference is being held?

Friday, 30 May, 1986 HON. L. DESJARDINS: This is a conference being sponsored and held for the Department of Health. In the future, certain services that were rendered by staff in the Department of Health will be changed and go to another department . When that was announced, the organizer of the program felt there is no point in dealing with that particular subject wh ich wou ld no longer be the responsibility of the Department of Health . Anything else, there's a lot of other issues, and we are retaining some home economists in the Department of Health dealing with nutrition and so on.

Money managing, housing and the other subjects are no longer. Normally, they would have all attended, there's no doubt about that, but that because these people would be leaving the Department of Health, that was changed. The agenda was changed. There's no point, at a time when these people were no longer with the Department of Health. I'm not saying it was the right decision. It might have been a misunderstanding. They didn 't realize that the people would be there for that time.

This has been changed and then they felt there was no reason for certain economists, certain people to be there at that time, because the subject would no longer be discussed at this area; talking about money management, and housing in these areas. A lot of other things will be discussed and the head economist, who stays with the department, will be there also to get any information and pass it on. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, Madam Speaker, my question now is to the Minister responsible for the Status of Women.

Has the Minister been involved in the discussions re the home economist specialists and, if so, will she be recommending that these positions be kept? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister responsible for the Status of Women. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I have been working very closely with the Minister of Health, with the Minister of Comm unity Serv ices, with the Minister of Agricult ure to ensu re that we put in place the best possible program to meet the needs of home economists in the field. We are in the process of reviewing that whole area.

We are con sulting with the Home Economists Asso ciati on; we are consulting with the Women's Institut e. We are hearing their concerns and as they have indicated by a press release , they are feel in g p osi t ive about the proce ss of consultation. We will contin ue to seek their input and advice and we will form our decis ion on t he bas is of their input, and on t he basis o f t he most efficient way to deal wit h service to the home econom ists in the field for this governmen t. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Kirkfield Park with a supplementary? MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Yes, with a supplementa ry to the same Minister . The Member for Pembina tabled the letter from a home economist saying that they had thought, following the meeting . . . 446 MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, a supplementary, as the member well knows, needs no

preamble, it is to follow on the answe r that the Minister has just given. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Then, my question to the Minister is, in light of the not to allow the home economists to go to the training and workshop , there has been a change in feeling of some of the women in the Women's Institute and the home economists. Will the Minister now put aside the fact that they are going to be consulting , and give a commitment to affirmative action and not to allow four senior positions held by women to be terminated? MADAM SPEAKER : I'm not clear as to which Minister the honourable memb er is directing her question.

MRS. G. HAMMOND: To the same Minister I indicated MADAM SPEAKER: The Minister responsible for the Status of Women? My understanding is that the people you are referring to are not in that Minister's jurisdiction . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Madam Speaker, the Minister involved is the Mini ster for the Status of Women. I was asking her if she wou ld keep a commitment to the Affirmative Action, and not allow these positions to be terminated. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for the Status of Women. HON. J. WASYLYC IA- LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

As my colleagues have indicated previously, this government is very committed to the services provided through some sort of central co-ord ination, research training function. We have made a commitment to the people in the field, to the home economist s and to those on staff that we will try to find the best way to provide th at service. They have expres sed con cern in the past about that service being somewhat disjointed in terms of different departments being involved.

They would like to see us carry out this review to ensure the best consolidation of servi ce and the most sensitive service to this home economi st in the fiel d. As the Manitoba Women's Institute has indicated, th rough a news relea se, which I will be glad to table, they recognize t hat this government is in agreement that a centra l home eco nomics resource director be mainta ined .

That is con sistent with what we have been saying , that the services w ill conti nue to be provi ded , and that the present positio ns are frozen until the matter is resolved; and tha t w e will continue to consult with all of the repres entatives invol ved, incl uding the Chief Home Economist . Abuse of Dial It 900 service MADAM SPEAKER : The Honour able Leade r of t he Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is for the Minister responsible for the Telephone

Friday, 30 May, 1986 System. On Tuesday, the 13th of May, a question was asked about the use of the 1-900 Service for acces sing what is os tensi bly a sex message. Concern was expressed about that service, and the Mini ster indicated at that time, some two-and-a-half weeks ago, "I have asked the board to consider that matter and to give me a report on what they propo se to do with it." My question to the Mini ster is: has the board considered the matter and have they reported to him on the matter? MADAM SPEA KER: The Honourable Minis ter of labour . HON. A.

MACKLING: The board, Madam Speaker, did give some consideration. They discussed the matter, and I had a discussion with the chairperson of the board about that question. I asked her for further information, and further consideration of the question, I believe, is going on by the bt.ard, and I expect that I will be in a position, or the board in a position, to make an announcement on that fairly early next week. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further question then to the Mini ster is: can he ind icate whether or not it is possible, technically, to block access to those 1- 900 numbers within the technology of the Telephone System? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, have other provincial jurisdictions blocked access to these sex messages through th at vehicle of the Telephone System technology? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Madam Speaker. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Min ister can ind icate whether he has, personally, listened to some of these messages.

I say that, Madam Speaker, in regard to a sincere concern on his part which I believe that he should have with respect to the content of the messages which are filthy . I have had one of the media outlets provide me with a tape of it. it's the sort of thing that I know that no one would like to think that any of our children are acce ssing freely in Manitoba today. I wonder if he has taken the opportunity to listen to the messages and make a judgment as to whether or not he thinks that's fair for Manitoba childr en to be allo wed to continue to access those messages. HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Spea ker, the short answer to the leader of the Opposition would be, no. However, I think I want to make it clear that I have formulated the view that the use that is being made of that service is offensive. I formulated that view on 447 the basis of the representations of people that were made to me, and organizations that were made to me, and I believe those people to be true and responsible. I don't have to make personal use of that service in order to verify what they say. I'm satisfied that it is offensive, and I have asked the board to determine whether the service should be disconnected.

They have shown some concern about the board becoming a censor, and I have dis cussed that with them. I expect to be making an announc ement some time next week on that. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: I would like to draw attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 17 students of Grade 9 from the Souris school. These students are under the dir ection of Miss Dianne Plamond on, and the school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Arthur.

On behalf of all the members, I would like to welcome you to the legislature this morning. HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, prior to Orders of the Day, I would like to ask the Government House leader if he could outline government business for next week. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House leader. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would be pleased to do so.

After some discussions with the Opposition House Leader and some of the representatives of different committees in his caucus, and discussions with the Member for River Heights, I can ind icate that, on Tuesday, we will be holding committee hearings on Public Accounts at 10:00 a.m. on June 3. Of course, that evening will be the Budget vote and the conclusion of the Budget Debate. On Wednesday, June 4, it is my intention to call Interim Suppl y. We may also proceed with one or more second readings at that time, but may not, that would be known on that day.

Of course, Private Members' Hour will begin on Wednesday, June 4, as well. On Thur sday, June 5, if required, Public Accounts would be continuing their review. As well, it would be our in tention to have the commencement of the departmental review of the Estimates, starting with Agriculture in the Chamber and, acc ording to the

schedule as outlined to me by the Opposition House Leader, the Department of High ways and Transportation outside of the Cham ber. MR. G. MERCIER: One further question on House Business, Madam Speaker, would the Government House Leader undertake to review the reports that have

Friday, 30 May, 1986 not yet been tabled in the House that are required to have been done by the legislation, and indic ate to the House next week when those will be completed? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: That review is under way now. There are several that still require some tabling. Some of the legislation is not exactly clear as to when that tabling is required.

But it is our intent to have all the reports tabled as soon as it is possible and I can provide a report directly to the Opposition House Leader early next week as to what is outst anding and when we would expect them to come forward. ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE MADAM SPEAKER: On the adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance and the proposed amen dm ent thereto by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, the Honourable Min ister of Municipal Affairs has 12 minu tes remaining. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

In speaking to the Budg et yesterday, I reached the point at which I wanted to deal with the matter of the issue of public debt. I was listening to the remarks from the Member for Fort Garry and he had made some reference to the Federal Budget presented some time in February. As I recal l, it was at that time that a large number of people in Manitoba started paying attention to the matter of the public debt.

Unfortuna tely, I think tha t a great numb er of Ma nitobans do not full y understand the meaning of the public debt and may lack some knowledge as to the situation in Manitoba vis-a-vis the other provinces in Canada. Quite often we have the figu res thrown at us as to the absolute amount of the public debt. I think what is more important is the province's ability to service that public debt rather than the absolute amount. Its akin to a person who may buy a $500,000 farm, one should be more concerned with the buyer's potential to service that debt rather than the debt itself whether it be $400,000 or 500,000.00.

The Opposition thought it had a big issue in the last few weeks of the campaign because there was this focus by the media on the national debt. Lacking any targets in the Provincial Government's campaig n, they latched on to the issue of public debt and wasn't Manitoba going to hell in a hand basket and there were certainly being some questions being asked. (Deputy Speaker, C. Santos, in the Chair.) The reality is, and it's documented in the Budget Address, that Manitoba's public debt - well, let's look at expenditures first of all.

Expenditures per capita, it seems that there is a myth, and I'm sure it is purposely perpetrated by opposition parties, the New Democratic Party Government is a wild spender, so often recall the term used by the former leader of that party about spending like drunken sailors. Well, the reality is that when you compared Manitoba with the other nine provinces, we have the third lowest 448 expenditure per capita in 1985-86, the only provinces that have a lower expenditure per capita being British Columbia and Ontario. So there are six others that have a higher rate of spending.

In terms of the public debt itself, I think far too often people do not realize that a good part of that public debt is a self-sustaining debt and a large portion of the provincial debt is as a result of the expenditu res that have been incurred in the development of our hydro resources. In fact, more than 60 percent of the public debt is debt incurred through Manitoba Hydro and self sustaining debt. Public debt has been used to build assets in our province, to serve our province, to develop our province and to sustain the economy, and programs for people.

In terms of the ability of the province to service the debt, it is noted from the material provided in the Budget Address that Manitoba spends some $246 per capita to service the debt charge. That is the fourth lowest debt charge per capita in Canada. On ly Alberta, British Columbia and Saskatchewan have a lower per capita charge. All provinces to the east of Manitoba have a high er dollar per capita charge.

In terms of whether we have mortgaged the future of our children - I hear that so often about - let's not worry tod ay, but what are we doing to our children, this mil lstone that we have placed around their neck? Again the reality is that the total debt per capita in Manitoba has incr eased at a rate that compares favourably with the rest of our countr y. I note from the information provided, that last year, British Columbia had a 34 percent incr ease in its total debt per capita.

I noticed that Nova Scotia had a 14 percent increase; that Saskatchewan, a Conservative province I believe, had a 17 percent incr ease; that Ontario had an 11 percent in crease. Manitoba's incr ease of 10 percent is somewhere in mid-range, certainly not out of line with what has been taking place outside of the province.

In closing, I'd like to again commend the Minis ter of Finance for a fair and responsible Budget, one that considers our priorities and that is to create jobs, to maintain a vibra nt economy, a Budget that deals with a major crisis that is found in the province at the present time and that is in the agricultural sector. I know that the province will continue to do as much as it can and will continue to pressure Ottawa for further assistance. This is a Budget that continues to provide services for all Manitobans in health, education and other social programs.

I know that, as we deal with the Estima tes, there will be plentiful opportunities for all of us to determine what changes may have been made, where improvements or expansi ons have been made, and certainly there is a need to review all our activities. However, the Budget is presented by the Minister I think very responsibly addresses the needs of Manitobans and provides us with the opportunity to continue with the mandate that was provided to this government on March 18 of this year. Thank you. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Mem ber for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Friday, 30 May, 1986 When I got up to give my initial Throne Speech address, I was remiss - I guess I was a little nervous of the Speaker and I did miss two important things. I must have flipped an extra page and not known I was doing it. I was really remiss in not making mention that I have the pleasure of succeed ing the Honourable Lloyd Hyde. Lloyd represented this constituency for eight years less 23 days. Unfortunately , Lloyd officially announced hi s not running in the election and suddenly passed away three days later.

He had announced that he was wanting to retire and spend some time with his wife and his new pride, the berry patch. We 're very pleased that Lloyd led the Portage constituenc y back to the PC fold after 15 years of wilde rness in the Li beral confines. Lloyd loved his constituency and he loved his province and he took great pride in representing the constituency in this House. Lloyd was very proud of his country and, unlike some others, enlisted in the army in the Second Wo rld War to protect this great country of ours. This pride is carrying on. His son Tom just recently asked me for another flag of Manitoba.

The old one was getting worn out and Tom is going to carry on in his father's footsteps. The loss was a terible tragedy to lsabel and her family, just at a time when Lloyd was only 65, where they could have enjoyed their retired life. I'm sure the House will join with me in wishing lsabel and her family well in the fut ure years . Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I also neglected, at that initial speech, to thank the constituents of Portage la Prairie who voted in the last election but, more expressly, to the 51 percent who voted PC; and also thanks to the large, excellent campaign commi ttee who worked very hard for me under probably the worst conditions we've ever held an election in. Really , Madam Speaker, it was inconsid erate or a downright stupid time of the year to call an election in Manitoba. The Member for Charleswood, who just said, hear, hear, can attest to the fact that it's injurious to your health.

Even though we inc reased our lead over the NDP by a 1,000 votes, I shouldn't take too much pride in it because, typically , he was a very poor ca ndida te and did nothing for the City of Portage. I'd like to go into the agricultural sector, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Manitoba was very proud in announcing that it was going to be spending $12.2 million extra on agriculture this year, but it was pointed out by the former Minister of Agriculture that it is not the largest budget that Agriculture has ever had spent on it. In fact, it is $5 million short of the 1982 one, when there really was a disaster.

Although it wasn 't in the original Estimates, we didn't know there was going to be a drought that year, but this gove rnment, the government that was in power at that time, saw fit to spend $4 1 million to save the farm communi ty, and this government now is doing very little to protect it. We also know what has come out of Al berta and Saskatchewa n. There are many suggestions as to what this government could do for the farm communit y. They've got some excellent programs and even one or two of these would be more than welcome.

A reduction of the educational tax also on the farmer would be a beneficial fact, even th ough the amount we ha d suggested as a beg innin g wasn 't large, it was a beginning. 449 Also, the Member for the lnt erlake isn't here. He was very proud of his Farm Land Ownersh ip Act, but it is now one of the acts that is hurting the farm community very much and I hope that he would repeal it in a short while. There are some good things in the Estimates in the Agriculture Department it's not all negative and I wouldn't want to suggest it was all negative.

I think the Farm Aid help to farmers is a good one. lt doesn't address all of the problems of farmers, but at least it shows some ind ication that the Mini ster is aware of the problems. They've got a good Beef Stabil ization Program, but it does not address the needs of the feedlot operators and a lot of jobs and business have been lost because the feedlot operators weren't recog nized. Farm Start will also help some young farmers get into agriculture and help some older farmers sell their farm.

The CRISP Program, of course, was just one that's been put back in and we're happy to see it back in for the farm families who really do need help, but it shouldn't have been taken out in the first place, so we welcome at least a little bit of common sense coming back into the government. I'll turn, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to Business Development and Tourism. During the Budget Address, when it was announced that there was going to be a $50 million loan fund for business development, the Minister in charge was all carried away and fluttering her hands and thought something was really going to happen. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it just ind icates the lack of business sense on that side of the House and especially in the Minister of that department, for business, to think that $50 million over five years, $10 million a year, will have any significant impact on the business ind ustry. We have some statistics here that I would like to make mention of, and it's in the investment, private expenditures, in millions.

Going back to 1981 and comparing it to 1985, if you take out the additional housing starts, the additional housing starts in'85, over 19 81, you find there is a lower private sector investment in Manitoba today than there was in 1981.

While private sector investment has in actuality gone down, the public sector expenditures have gone up by some 50 percent; so while the government brags about all their job creat ion and investment, it is government created at public expense, jobs that will not be there in the long term and will put us just further into debt, so it's borrowed money and it's just a bad, bad, bad deaL When she talks about this $10 million in one year, it's less or around one-half a percent of the annual private investment. Now what stimulus is one-half of one percent going to do?

But it's only a loan, but even if they gave the amount of the interest away, which let's assume at 10 percent is a million dol lars, it's .05 percent of private investment. That's if they forgive the interest; very, very pathetic and I think very short-sighted on the part of the government. There is also a small manufacturing adaptation program which I don't think is really going to be all that good.

The tragedy that we are facing in busine ss is that on the other side of the House, and as I have looked and tried to determine what the backgrounds of the various members are, we see people with almost no business backgr ound. Their experience has either

Friday, 30 May, 1986 been in unions, working for somebody else. I don't see the members on the other side having produced any new jobs with their own money. The only experience they have, really, in business, would be the Member for the lnterlake and I guess you could say he's a turkey farmer; and the Member for Lac du Bonnet - I think it's a tragedy - because the Member for Lac du Bonnet, I think has some real good business experience and municipal experience. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, what the ind ustry needs now is a cli mate and I think, as Harry Enns pointed out the other day, he said he was reaching out; and I think really what the indus try now needs is a reaching out from the government to try to develop a cli mate that is going to be conducive to developing busi ness in this province. I have a scenario, and it's to do with the labour leg islation. These people have in trod uc ed labour legislation that I feel has cost this province a lot of private investment and a lot of jobs.

Labour legislation that precludes the employer speaking to his employees at the time that there is a union organizing going on, I would relate it to make it so that they could maybe understand, and it's got to be pretty simple for them to understand, I admit. Let 's suggest that there was a push to unioni ze children, and of course the unioniz er, the criteria for a union izer, has generally got to be a bully, not too bright, loud and doesn't care for others, concerned only for his own position. Some here resemble that criteria. The platform of this supposed union would be, childr en do not have to attend school.

They could drink at the age of 14, have drugs, no curfews, huge increases in allo wance and personal care; and all the time that this is happening, the parents can not speak to the childr en because it would be agains t the legislation. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the parents know if their childr en didn' t have to attend school that what would it do to their future. Education, as has been poi nted out by other members, is very crucial to the future of this provi nce and the future of ind ividuals, but they couldn't speak to them about this to tell them the dangers of what was being proposed.

They also wouldn't be able to talk to them of the dangers of drinking and drugs and what would happen to their morals and their whole well-being if they fol lowed this process. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the huge increases in allo wance would be a financial burden on the family , and unfortuna tely , thi s family's wage earner is a farm equipment salesman - and you know what it's like now in the farm indus try - so his income is down. So what happens is that the marriage break up takes place and the children end up in foster homes.

The marriage breakup is tantamount to the company going broke and the chil dren in foster homes is paramount to the workers being unemplo yed. The payroll tax also is another very very regress ive labour legislation and I don't think members opposite really understand what this 1.5 payroll labour legislation does. lt takes money; they tax people. Anybody within the province that is not competing interprovincially passes it on to the consu mer.

You bafflewag the people to let them think that you're getting it out of the bu sine ssman, but anybody that's not dealing 450 interprovincial ly , international ly, passes it on and I've been told this by many people. The unfortunate

part is th ose compan ies that deal interprovincially or internationally are put at a dis advantage competitiv ely, and therefore you lose that competitive edge. They either deter away from further markets, costing us investment and costing us much-needed jobs. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will cite you examples of people who were employees - and good employees - who were continually suggesting that management was not doing enough for the employees, until they went into business on their own and then their wages paid to emplo yees went down.

They saw the other side of the fence. lt's easy to criticize when you don't know the other side, and unfortu nately, members opposite just do not understand. The corporation capital tax sounds great; 50 percent increase, but this is a tax before profit; it's a tax whether your facilities are paid tor.

Once again, where it is possible, it is passed on to the consu mer, the same guidel ines as in the 1.5 payroll tax - and where it can't be passed onto the consume r, puts them in a weaker competitive position, once again, hurting investment and job creation. lt's just like companies come to provinces that are going to give them a good business cli mate. lt's like buying a car and I'm sure the Member for Kildonan could relate to that. That's about down to his level.

You can understan d, if you go to buy a car, you shop around and you look for the best deal you can get, and rightfully you should, and so does busi ness look for the best deal they can get. I also would like to make members opposite aware of the merchants along the Manitoba border who are being hurt by the withdr awal of some sales taxes in Saskatchew an, and I hope the Minister of Finance would maybe listen and react very quickly to their plight. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I'd like to draw attention to the fact that for the first time in the history of this House, there are two farmers who have won the "Farmer of the Year" award. I think in one case, they maybe were having a party and made a bad decision, but in the case of the Member for Lac du Bonnet, a person not only elected into the constituenc y, but a person who was selected as being a top person for the year by his peers, and where does he sit? A person who was selected by good people, he sits in the back benches, when his expertise could be badly, badly used in the Cabinet. lt's being wasted.

There's very little agricultural input, and I'l l tell you, the Member for Lac du Bonne t will find that it's pretty hard to soar with eagles when you're amongst a bunch of turk eys. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in the Budget, $37 million was cut from capital expenditures, almost half of it from High ways and Natural Resources, and this is the area that could least afford cuts. lt's going to hurt the farm community that they say they're helping, the Overhill Drain in the Portage area, which some farmers will never crop their land this year because of lack of adequate drainage, comes under Natural Resources, I hope that that's not one of the programs that gets elimina ted. So where will these jobs be made up? In the High ways Department alone, they estima te 400 jobs will be lost because of the cut.

I don't know where these are going to be made up, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I've got some statistics and we have heard members opposite brag

Friday, 30 May, 1986 about the emplo yment and everything else. Ok ay, emplo yment is up 19,000 people over 1981, but the unemployed are up 14,000. A MEMBER: People are coming back. MR. E. CONNEAY: That's right, the people are coming back to unemplo yment and also on the Unemployment Ins urance, there's an additional 16 ,400 on unemployment insur ance and, as the member over here from Minnedosa said, "Welfa re." In 1981, there were 2,436 cases of welfare in the City of Winnipeg. Today there are 8, 150 or an incr ease of 235 percent.

They brag about 21 percent incr ease in the agricultural budget, 235 percent more on welfare, I would sugge st is a much much bigger and more tragic thing for people to be on welfare. MA. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Elmwood has a point of order? MA. E. CONNEAY: When they speak about all these thing, they are coming home to UIC and welfare. MA. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. There's a point of order being raised. MA. J. MALOW AY: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

The current speaker referred a few min utes ago to the members of the back bench here having no experience in busine ss and I wanted to point out that I have owned an insur ance agency for eight years now. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. MA. E. CONNEAY: I'm very pleased that there are members opposite that have some business experience. I question the degree and - (Interjection) - Had been, oh I see.

But I do agree maybe if they spend enough time listening to members on this side, maybe at some point in time, some of the facts and information will get through to them. lt's going to be a long haul. Mr. Deputy Speaker, tourism is Manitoba's fourth largest earner of export dollars. Do you realize that in the Budget Address, tourism is only mentioned in the headline where it says, "B usiness Development and Tourism." There's been absolutely no reference to tourism at all and the Budget has not been signif icantly increased to look after it.

We see how much inter est there is in tourism when this year alone, when we had an opportunity to display Manitoba to the world, and our leader was pooh-poohed when he suggested that in the election debate that we have a pavilion in Vancouver. I think the vision of our leader now is coming home and the chickens are coming home to roost that we should have had, in fact, a pavilion there. (Madam Speaker in the Chair.) NDP Governments are bad news for tourism. They don't understand tourism; they don't want tourists here. They think there are other rich people coming and taking part.

In 1984, $621 million was received in tourist dollars. They're bragging this year, I think the figure is $625 million, some big deal. Mr. Deputy Speaker - oh, it's Madam Speaker, thanks, nice to see you back. I was hoping you wouldn't miss all of my . . . 451 MADAM SPEAKER: Wo uldn't dream of it. MA. E. CONNERY: Because the Deputy Speaker is much easier on me and I like a little intimidation, it makes me better.

We have in the new tourist agreement, a fancy looking thing that says, "Go World Class." The concern that I have in this new tourist agreement and it's not 60- 40 as the previous one was. lt' s now 50-50 - they are looking at four major areas of the province, Madam Speaker, the Winnipeg area, Hecla Island, Winn ipeg Beach , the Precambrian Shield and the Riding Mountain and - what's the other one up there? - national parks. The concern that I have as this is outside of Winnipeg, is this a way of putting tourist dolla rs, which shouldn't really be generating tourism, into provincial and federal parks.

I hope that this is not the case and I'll be watching very very closely to see that it goes to the entrepreneur who best knows how to generate tourist dollars. The government should be a facilitator. As you see in other areas when the government gets involved, they bomb out, and I hope that in this area they will leave it to the private entrepreneurs, facili tate them for doing it. But the other thing that I worry about in this agreement is it features on "world class" great big huge projects that very few people can get invo lved in.

They've literally wiped out all of southern Manitoba and southwestern Manitoba, as being able to qual ify for any of the tourist dolla rs - and this is a five-year agreement. The City of Brandon, the City of Portage la Prairie, all the other towns, the ski resorts at La Riviere, etc. will not be included in this agreement, if I read it right - (Interjection) - Yes, I don't think they'r e all that happy with it. Also, I asked a question in the House the other day: how many government employees will be going to Expo?

We didn't get an exact number and I hope it's not a holid ay for members of the department at government expense. We know suites that have been rented and I think that's a question we're going to have to pursue with great depth that this government is not having a free trip to Vancouver. In Housing, Madam Speaker , there were some encouraging things, and I appreciate the fact that the Home Renovation Program is an excellent program. I would like to point out, and it's been pointed out to us, that we on this side don't come up with anything concrete.

We talked about the competency of the government oppo site and going back to an

article in the Winni peg Free Press which the Member for Kildonan does not like and has roundly critici zed - but I still think they were accurate - on November 30, 1985, per-house subsidy , $36,000.00. Madam Speaker, this subsidy alone will cost the Government of Manitoba $5 million. This is just lack of business sense. There's $5 million that could be put to Health and Education, Highw ays or anything else. They blow it on stupid projects that cost us mo ney. If it's going to put people into housing, it should not be at a loss - typical of the management of the NDP Government.

Also, I'd like to know why is public housing not under the Rentalsman? I've had several complaints from people in Portage la Prairie who are saying their rent in the government owned housing has gone up very,

Friday, 30 May, 1986 very fast and they can't figure it out. it's one area that I want to pursue. I haven't had the time but I think there should be a common ground for all housing and people in public housing sho uldn't be paying more, a faster rate than other people. Native people, Madam Speaker, is an area that I'm very sensitive about, an area I'm very familiar with. I grew up in south St. Vital, went to school with, friends of, people worked for us, that were of Metis background.

I've understood Metis people for all my life since I was able to walk and talk to them; they were neighbour s; they were friends, they were employees. Given the right opportuni ty, and most of these were in our area, they came into the mainstream of society. They're not on the welfare roles in the City of Winnip eg but they're good citizens producing and we're very proud of what has happened to that group of people. When I moved to Portage, I had the opportunity of then hiring Status Indians or true Native people.

I hope the Member for Rupertsland might be listening, while he's reading, that I am concerned about his people. Native people, Madam Speaker, are very capable people. Given the opportu nity , they will perform and do all of the jobs - on our farm, they have reached the hig hest point avai lable outside of our own management people. They're very good people. But Native people have been used and abused; used by politicians to get votes and I think the indi cation of the Limestone project is a very good one. They used them to get the votes.

Once they won the election, they turned their backs on the Native people and now are going to union people who are the backbone of the NDP party. Madam Speaker, Native people don't need handouts. We can go through the accounts book and we can see all kinds of little handouts to the Native commun ities to buy votes. This is not what the Native people want; they need meaningful programs; they need jobs. Gi ven that opportunit y, their pride and self-respect will return and we'll be quite proud of the Native people.

Last Wednesda y, the Member for Rupertsland was criticizing the Federal Government for holding up some program for Native people. This Provincial Government also funds the Friendship Centres, and Friendship Centres are a source of help to the Native people coming off the Indi an reserves into the commun ity. Their funds are being held up by the Provincial Govern ment. If that member is so concerned, why isn't he making sure the Provincial Government is funding the Friendship Centres where these people can get some assistance? In Community Services, Madam Speaker - how's my time doing?

A MEMBER: 40 min utes, lots of time. MR. E. CONNERY: Lots of time! That's great. MADAM SPEAKER: The member has 14 minut es remaining. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. In Community Services in the new Budget - it was under the Financial Assistance to Physically and Mentally Retarded - they're spending up to $5 million more this year than they did last. I would assume, 452 Madam Speaker, that that is going to be to help the Wel come Home Program concept. We have a problem, Madam Speaker, and we see it already in the child abuse area where the infrastructure in the community is not there.

We are very concerned as to what's happening with the mentally retarded who are going to be forced to go into the communit y, many of them not of their own volition, but being forced into it. Madam Speaker, I've tried to analyze the Mini ster of Community Services as to the reasons she reacts the way she does. I don't think the Minister is an uncaring person, at least I would hope that she is not, and I'm sure that she is not. She sure is a very misguided Mini ster in the sense of the programs. What has happened is that she's aligned herself with people of one train of thought.

She has refused to consult and listen to people on the other side. We have a case of blinkers or tunnel vision and not looking at the full spectrum of what is needed in the communit y. When you see people like her own expert, Dr. Lowther, people at the Manitoba School, people that are teaching the psychiatric course there, people I respect, people that are knowledgable, all say that the program that she is going on is wrong.

I've talked to people who have brothers, sisters or children in the Manitoba School who say she is totally wrong - they're very concerned - people that she is forcing to go to court to get commit teesh ip over because she says it will be a volun tary scheme to go into the community on the Welcome Home Program but, in effect, they are forc ing them through bullying tactics, badgering, and people have signed, in tears, to have their chil dren go. This is a voluntary program. What's going to happen to the wards of the court who have nobody to care for them, no parents, no brothers, no sisters?

They won't have anybody to speak for them. They'll just be pushed into the commun ity. I'm concerned that the infrastructure is not there. An

article from the Toronto paper and was reprinted in our Daily Graphic about mentally deficit victims in prison. The infracture not there, they end up on the streets; they end up doing things that are not their fault, and they end up in prison. We also have an

article from National Affairs and it says, "Abandoned." Madam Speaker. I'll just read one very short little sentence here. "Dr. Leona Bacharach of the University of Maryland concedes a failure in impl ementation because very little of the hoped-for community psychiatric support was ever provided. That shortfa ll," she says, "has created a big mess for the mentally ill." I think that is the course that is being charted right now by this government and by this Min ister and after our institutional facilities have been demolished, where will these people go? Prisons?

They can be abandoned on the streets - not like in the American cities where at least it's a little warmer climate; they don't perish - but I'm sure in Manitoba they will perish. lt's almost in my estimation a form of genocide. Also, they're purchasing housing. We look at the houses they'r e purchasing for the mentally retarded they're old dumps in many cases, buildings that are almost obsolete and should be torn down. Madam Speaker ... MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

Friday, 30 May, 1986 The Honourable Mi nister responsible for Native Affairs with a point of order. HON. E. HARPER: I wonder whether the honourable member speaking would entertain a question after he speaks? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Sure. The quality of housing, Madam Speaker, as I was saying, and I've looked at some of the ones that they have bought and the ones that they're looking at, they're going to give them a quick facelift; they'll give them a quick paint job, and in a very few short years, these houses will not be up to standard.

They're not up to standard right now, Madam Speaker, and this is going to be a disa ster. The retarded people need activities. And what activities are they going to get isolated in towns like Alonsa, Somerset? All of these are areas that are far away from the infrastructure that is required. Are they going to get the physiother apy, the speech therapy that they get at the Manit oba Development Centre? I think we need to look at the Alberta concept, and I agree that, in many cases, the institutions are not very homelike and don't provide a quality of living that they deserve.

We could go to the cottage concept around the Mani toba Development Centre where there is adequate space, we could have proper housing, and they'd still be there to be able to partake of the activities, the workshop activities, the recreat ional activities, and not be left out on their own in the commun ity. We have seen too many cases of the mentally ill, the retardates, being physical ly, financia lly, verbally and sexually abused.

We also see unfortunate circumstances where proper medication wasn't admin istered and out of control, one of these people has done some thing tragic in the communi ty, the community pays, and this individual is then labelled for the rest of their lives - a real tragedy . Also, Madam Speaker, I asked a que stion this morning in the House on the Community Mental Health Program at Red River. I am told that this is a program funded by the Core Area Program and for core area residents only .

I'm hoping for that answer, I'm hoping that before that answer comes, the Mini ster responsible will make it avai lable to all residents of Manitoba, not just a few from one area. The people of Portage, now that the school is being closed in Portage, if they had to drive to Selkirk or Brandon which would be much further if they wanted to enter in the same program, it would be much more costly and maybe preclude them going. There also is the concern of the RPN's, what are the standards? The Minister said the standards will be there. Standards compared to what ? Will th ey be the st andards of the RPN's?

The people who really understand what is needed, or is it going to be another quick-flip training program? We see the amount of child abuse that's going on and so we know that the infrastructure is not there, that their program is not working. Do we want the same thing to happen when it comes down to the mentally 453 retarded? We all know that governments are great at starting programs and do them for awhile, but after awhile they want to drop them so they can start a new program.

I think this is the fate of the mentally retarded in Mani toba, they'll be put in to the streets, the infrastructure will dry up, and they'll be then some of the pathetic people that just should not be there. We talk about financial responsi bility of government and we talk about the fact that we must reduce the deficit. Members oppo site pooh-pooh and hee-hee about how are you going to do it? I think, first of all, you learn to look after the nickels and dimes of any kind of business and you find out that the dollars fall into place pretty quick.

I don't know if the members opposite know that, because they don't run their own business. In most cases either they have government jobs - union organizers or whatever - have never had to go through that analyzing of their own financial statement and to see where they can cut costs. There's an awful lot of costs that can be reduced, but I just looked through The Civil Service Superannuation Act where the amount of money spent on that pension plan is up $1. 7 million, or 15 percent in one year.

I wonder if all emplo yees of Manitoba are privi leged to have something in that magnitude, and I think if one group is, then I think all groups should be. In 1980-81, it was $4,91 0,000, today it is $13 million. Quite an incr ease. - (Interject ion) - No, I didn't; I'm sorry; but I will be. To reduce the size of the Cabi net is one of the areas you can reduce your expenses in. We've got the largest Cabinet of all time, do we need a Cabinet of 21 people? Or can we have a Cabinet size of somewhere around 15 or 16 competent Ministers who are able to do the job.

I insist on the word "com petent." We have an ind ication, Madam Speaker, of the inc ompetency or the inability with the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. Last year the amounts for the Mini ster was 9,000-and-something. This year it's 10,000, which meant that it was a shared portfol io. This year it is now a single portfolio, by one person.

Also we see the salaries of the Executive Commit tee have gone up dramatically , and I forget what it is, $41,800 - now we know the Mini ster keeps her baby in the office - I hope, Madam Speaker, this is not a high-pr iced baby sitte r, but I still question the fact, why would the salaries have to go up when the Minister only has the responsi biliti es of Cultur e and Heritage and Recreation? That is a good area where you can start cutting costs. Very good area. - (Interjection) - Yes.

But if you peruse through the Budget Estimates, we find that almost everywhere - not exclusiv ely, but almost everywhere, salaries are up, the other expenditures are down. To me it looks like they're buying a horse and they don't have a cart to hook on to it. How do you reduce the other expenditures and raise the salaries? Do you need more people to do the same job? I think that is exactly what you 're doing.

We have the poorest credit rating in Western Canada, and if we continue to raise our deficit, the interest costs will continue to rise and we already have heard what is happening in inter est and the almost one-third of the extra monies of deficit this year going to debt repayment. Still the First Minister continues to fed bash over transfer payments. I'm opposed to this sort of fed-bashing, but at the same time what does he do to the City of Winnipeg? He didn't just cut their

Friday, 30 May, 1986 incr eases; he has slashed at their budgets, at their income. Not the fed-bashers who are reducing the incr ease, and then turn around and reduce the income for the City of Winnipeg. Madam Speaker, I'm going to be winding up very short ly. The transfer payments, I feel, show that we are a have-not province, because it's only the have-not provinces that get transfer payments.

As a citizen and as a member of this Legislature, I would like to see us work awfully hard to try to work ourselves into the position where we are not receiving transfer payments, where we are the full participants in this country of Canada. Maybe they're proud and maybe they want this, but that shows the inept ness, and, as one member said, they've been in power for the last 12 of 16 years; and this province reflects an NDP Party being in party for 12 of 16 years. - (Interjection) - That's right. And with enough bafflewagg ling, you've convinced them.

Madam Speaker, the other day when they were talking about the trees dying in this NDP plantation, and somebody said what are you going to tell the kids when they drive by? The Attorney-General said don't do it this way. I'm sure in the future, when his grandchildr en come along, we'll be able to say the same thing, don't do it this way. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mini ster responsible for Native Affairs with his question? HON. E. HARPER: Yes. The Ho nourable Member for Portage la Prairie in his speech remarked that we, the government, were giving handouts to the Native people to buy votes.

Is he prepared to be more specific and inform this House as to these allegations? Because 1 reject the implications that Native people can be bought and I personally regret this implication. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: If you read through the evidence, you'll see many areas where I believe there was money spent that wasn't meaningful. What the Native people of this country want are jobs, not just little make-shift things that get them through for a few months.

They've got to have meaningful, lon g-term jobs and I would be prepared to see the government lose money and provi ding jobs to Native people in communities that are not acces sible to the market. I think then we're going to put pride back into the Native people. This is what the Native people want, not little platitudes, little wee programs that do nothing for them. but it gets you votes. What about at Limestone? Why are they not being still a select few? Why are the unions taking over the Native people?

If you were concerned, you'd be fighting with your government right now over the Native people being rejected in their own backyard, where they belong, and we're bringing in people from other areas in southern Manitoba, and you'r e accept ing that, that's a shame. Yo u have neglected your people. MADAM SPEAK ER: The Honour able Mini ster of the Environment. - (Interjection) - Order please. The Honourable Minister of the Environment. 454 HON. G. LEC UYER: Merci . . . Thank you, Madam Speaker. If the Member for Stur geon Creek will quiet down MADAM SPEAK ER: Order please, order please!

The Honour able Minis ter of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Merci Madame la Presidente. C'est la premiere fois durant la presente Session qu'il m' est permis de parler soit dans l'un ou I' autre de ces debats sur le Discours du Trone du budget; done je voudrais profiter de cette occas ion en premier lieu pour vous souhaite r, a vous meme ... vous feliciter d'abord d'avoir ete elue au poste de Presidente de la Chambre, le poste certainement le plus important et je veux en profiter aussi pour faire cette remarque a l'effet que vous avez acco mpli, jusqu'a maintenant une tache tres admir able.

Et je souhaite que, de ma part et de la part de tous mes collegues, nous pourrons faire en sorte que nous puissions faciliter cette tache plut ot que de la rendre difficile comme nous savons tous, elle peut certainernent l'etre. Je veux en profiter aussi pour feliciter tous les nouveaux membres, les nouveaux deputes de cette Chambre et ceci, des deux cotes de la Chambr e, et je souhaite . . . je leur souhaite . . . je souhaite qu'ils trouveront !'experience des plus profitable et qu'ils sauront bien representer les contribuables de leurs cotes.

De ma part aussi, je voudrais remercier les citoyens du comte de Radisson qui m'ont reelu a cette Chambr e et je voudrais m' engager, comme je l'ai fais la premiere fois en 1981, a les representer du mieux que je puisse le faire. Madame la Presidente, je voudrais aussi feliciter le Mini stre des financ es qui a presente a cette Chambr e un budget qui, a mon avis, est bien balance et qui saura tracer le chemin de cette province . . . ou maintenir cette province dans le chemin a l'avant de plusieurs autres de ce pays.

Nous avons durant les derni eres annees, Madame la Presidente, . . . le Mani toba s'est place durant les dernieres annees a l'avant de plusieurs autres provinces de ce pays et je pense que, avant de nous proposer son budget, le Min istre des finances a tenu en consideration les besoins et les capacites de cette province et ce budget done, est balanc e . . . est bien balance et je lui en felicite.

Comme le Mini stre des finances l'a dit dans son Discours du Trone, il visait pouvoir avec ce budget, maintenir au Manitoba une economie provinciale forte et assurer des emplois et une securite economique aux Manitobains. Et ceci, nous avons choisi de le faire en assurant et en soutenant des programmes sociaux prog ressistes qui pourront maintenir chez nous, pour tous les Manitobains, un haut niveau de qualite de vie. Nous avons choisis aussi en tant que Gouv ernement, de le faire en tant que partenaire avec les citoyens du Manitoba avec qui nous partageons cette vision d'une province prospere.

Et done, nous voulons avec les Manitobains travailler ensemble pour atteindre un niv eau de justice et de dignite qui a toujours ete mon ob jectif personnel et aussi l' objectif de ce Gouvernement. Nous n'avons pas de choix, Madame la Presidente, il nous taut choisir les orientations, les pistes qui vont •

Friday, 30 May, 1986 nous permettre d'aller en avant ... et de le faire dans deux directions en meme temps. Nous avons dit dans le passe, Madame la Presidente, que selon notre philosphie, il n'y a pas des programmes sociaux d'un cote, des programmes economiques d'un autre et que d'all er de l'avant dans une voie etait au depens de I' autre. Selon notre approche, les deux vont main dans la main ... vont de paire.

Done, en autant qu'il y a du progres econ omique, ea nous permet de realiser aussi des progres aussi du cote des programmes sociaux. 11 s'agit done en maintenant ces programm es, de les appuyer done en vue de stimuler le progres economique au moyen d'une productivite accrue pour nous donner a tous un meilleur niveau de vie. Les prio rites dans ce budget sont comme elles doivent l'etre. D'abord, la creation et le maintien de l'emploi et !'ameli oration de la situation economique.

Nous avons aussi choisi de maintenir en position de priorite les services dans le domaine de la Santa, du cote de !'Education et nous avons choisi de placer cette fois et surtout cette fois-ci, beaucoup d'emphase sur I' Agriculture . . . le domaine agricole qui est, je crois, le secteur qui a recu la plus haute augmentation en terme de pourcentage dans ce budget. Nous savons tous, Madame la Presidente, que !'agricultur e au Manitoba est en situation de crise et je pense qu'il est aussi vrai de dire qu 'elle l'est tout partout au Canada.

Tous les ni veaux des Gouvernements doivent faire un maximum pour assurer l'avenir des exploitations agricoles famil iales et c'e st pour ea, Madame la Presidente, que nous avons place une haute priorite sur ce secteur. Nous croyons qu'a ce moment-ci, le probleme le plus urgent ... et a tel point merne, Madame la Presidente, que c' est peut etre de tous cote, l'avenir des exploitations agricoles qui en depend.

C'est certainement le groupe le plus vulnerable et ce qui a de plus malheureux la dedans, Madame la Presidente, c'e st que ce sont les jeunes fermiers, hommes, femmes . . . qui font face a ces nombreux problemes ... alors que ce sont, c' est ces jeunes fermiers que nous sommes en droit d'attendre le plus pour l'avenir et malheureusement, dans la situation qui prevoit presentement, plus ieurs d'entre eux ont deja fait faillite et plusieurs autres sont peut etre voues a la faillite et ce faisant, mettre en peril toute cette tradition d'exploitation . . . de petites exploitations au Manitoba.

Malgre les bonnes recoltes des dernieres annees, la crise financier e du cote va en augmentant et on sait que c' est a cause de la montee continue des prix pour les produits dont ils ont besoin . . . par exemple, les fertilisants, les produ its chimi ques, les machines agricoles et face a cette situation, les cereales et autres recoltes de specialisation qui sont leurs produits . . . leurs productions a eux vont vers la baisse sur les marches in ternat ionaux. Done il en resulte non seulement des difficultes dans le secteur rural mais aussi les repercussions se font sentir dans le secteur urbain.

Parce que ici au Manitoba, comme nous le savons, que ce soit du cote emploi, transport, commerce, indu strie . . . tous les secteurs sont d'une facon ou d'une autre sont touches et, dans certains cas, plus que touches, mais leur survivance depend de la vitalite, de l'activite agricole, done, dans la mesure ou il y a des problemes, des faillites, il y a plusieurs 455 emplois qui sont aussi perdus, non seulement dans le secteur agricole mais aussi, bien entendu, dans le secteur urbain.

La crise est nettement nationale et je pense que, a partir de cela, il taut en effet, en exiger qu'il y est un effort et des solutions nationales pour assurer l'avenir de la petite ferme familiale. Durant les dernieres annees, noire Gouvern ement a mis sur pied plusieurs programmes visant a stabil iser les revenus des fermiers et a venir en aide aux fermiers en difficulte financiere. Et je suis heureux de constater et que le Ministre des finances dans ce budget a annonce de nouvelles mesures pour venir en aide au secteur agricole et meme de placer sa premiere priorite de ce cote.

J'ai dit, Madame la Presidente, tout a l'h eure, que nous avions aussi choisi de placer une haute priorite sur le secteur de la Sante et de !'Education et autres programmes sociaux. Car, en general, noire jeunesse, nos personnes agees, nos personnes qui sont en difficult es ... c'est eux qui dependent done sur ces programmes sociaux et, dans le cas des jeunes, c' est l'avenir qu'ils sont appeles a batir ... done nous pouvons nous permettre de mettre en jeu l'efficacite de ce programme.

Hi er, Madame la Presidente, le depute de Brandon Quest a fait allusion, a partir de stat istiques demontrant, par exemple Madame la Presidente, que le Manitoba s'est tres bien situe par rapport aux autres provinces depuis que nous sommes au Gouvernement en 1981 et a cet effet, il a utili se des tableaux et des statistiques qui denotent que dans la piOpart des sect eurs qui demontrent que dans la piOpart des sect eurs . . . dans la piOpart des secteurs qui demontrent oO a partir desquelles on mesure la vitalite ec onomique du Manitoba . . . nous nous sommes tres bien situes generalement dans une position mieux que la moyenne des provinces de ce pays . . . generalement et souvent dans les premiers rangs.

Qu'il s'agis se de l'i nvestissement prive ou publique, la croissance des emplois, du peu de chomage, par exemple, ou de la valeur de construc tion, etc. des ventes en details, le Manitoba a tres bien fait durant les quelques dernieres annees et c'est a partir, par exemple, d'une performance telle que celle-la que meme la Banque Royale indiqu ait, se prononcait sur la perspective economique du Manitoba en ces termes et je cite: "Le Manitoba devrait etre a la tete du pays pour ce qui est de la croissance economique reelle, de maintenant jusqu'a 1994." Ces choses-la, Madame la Presidente, n'arrivent pas par accident. lis arrivent a partir d'un effort et d'une volonte concertee et c'est ce que ce gouvernement fait depuis qu'il est au pouvoir en 1981.

Le budget qui nous est presente maintenant veut continuer dans cette voie dans les annees a venir. Je sais que certains ont fait etat avec beaucoup de verve quant au deficit qui est propose dans ce budget; meme si c'est un deficit reduit, considerablement reduit a partir de celui que nous avons dO connaitre dans la derniere annee fiscale. Plusieurs des deputes de I' autre cote de la Chambre ont dit qu'ils deploraient par exemple l'i nsuffisance des investissements voues par exemple au secteur agricole, l'i nsuffisance de capitaux voues a !'E ducation.

Je sais que ces remarques ont ete faites par le depute de River Heights. lis l'ont ete par a peu pres tous les deputes du parti Conser vateur, pour un projet ou !'autre qu'ils

Friday, 30 May, 1986 veulent voir choye en particulier dans leur comte. Et moi, je me pose cette question, Madame la Presidente, comment est-il possible d'accorder a chacun ce ces petits projets ou a chacun de ces secteu rs, des sommes considerables plus elevees de celles que nous avons accordees dans notre budget et toujours arriver a maintenir ou a atteindre le but qu'ils proposent aussi, c'e st-a-dire un deficit qui va vers la baisse. C' est la perpetuelle di cotomie. C'e st comme la chanson qui dit . . . tout le monde veut aller au ciel, mais personne ne veut mourir.

Ou on dit aussi en francais chez-nous . . . on voudrait avoir notre pain beurrer des deux cotes. C'est peut-EHre facile, Madame la Presidente, qu'on est pas dans une situation ou on a a etre responsable ou a rendre compte de ce qu'on fait, de se prononcer de cette facon, mais je pense que tous les Manitobains sont en droit de s'attendre a mieux que cela. Des membres qui ont ete elus pourraient representer dans cette Chambr e, meme si ils ne sont pas au Gouvernement, et qu'ils sont en opposition, ils ont quand meme la responsabilite d'agir de facon responsable.

Et tous les Manitobains, je pense, s'attendre a mieux que ea de leurs parts. On ne peut pas dire, d'un cote, dire qu'il faut depenser des sommes enormement plus considerables et esperer que nous allons atteindre un niveau de deficit qui est deux, trois fois moins que ce lui que nous avons presentement.

Nous sommes les premiers a admettre de ce cote ici et le Ministre des financ es I' a mentionne dans son Oiscours, Madame la Presidente, le soir de sa presentation qu'il acceptait que le deficit demeurait beaucoup plus eleve que nous le souhaiterions, mais que comparativement ac e qui se passe dans d'autres provinces, comparativement a la dette per capita de chacun des Manitobains par rapport de celle des Canadians en general ou des citoyens des autres provinces, nous ne sommes pas dans une situation critique et il a aussi fait remarque, Ma dame la Presidente, que une

partie enorme de ce deficit etait dans des investissements qui vont continues a rapport er des benefices a contribuer au developpement economique de cette province a long terme pour des generations a venir et c'est pour ea que nous ne pouvons attendre d'avoir en poche, tous les sous pour entreprendre quelque chose.

Parce que nous serions a reduire cette province, ou l' economie de cette province, a paralis er l'economie de cette province, un peu comme I' a fait, a choisi de le faire !'o pposition dans les annees 1977 a 1981, ce qui nous avait mene, ce qui avait mene cette province au dernier rang dans la piOpart des secteurs economiques.

Alor s, Mad ame la Presi dente, je sais qu'i l est inevitable qu'il puisse y avoir des differences dans les philo sophie de base d'un parti et !'autre, mais je ne crois pas qu e !' opposition, que les membr es de !'o pposition soient des magicians et puissant arriver a rejoindre ces deux poles opposes, c'est-a-dire un deficit, c'e st-a-dire un budget ou une economie provinciale, sans deficit et dans la possitilite d'accorder des sommes plus considerables a tous les secteurs qu'ils voudraient voir avancer . . . que ce soit du cote de la construction des routes, que ce soit pour permettre a !'agricultur e d' alle r de l'a vant, que ce soit pour offrir des programmes dans le secteur de I' Education plus varies, plus nombreux, mieux finances, peu impo rte. 11 n'est pas possible de faire de la magie ici. 456 Je pense que l'approche que ce Gouvernement a adopte en faveur des differents secteurs economiques permettra au Manitoba d'atteindre ou de se situer tel que predit par la Conference Board ou la Banque du Canada de bien se placer par rapport aux autres provinces dans les annees a venir.

Madame la Presidente, je ne voudrais pas manquer cette occasion de faire qu elques remarques en particulier qui touchent plus particulierement mon secteur de responsabilite, c'e st-a-dire l'environnement et la securite et !'hygiene au travail. Madame la Presidente, surtout en rapport avec ces derniers jours ou on entend tenement de commentaires par example en rapport avec une question et je voudrais y toucher si pour rien d'autre, apporter quelques precisions. Les medias, entre autres, ont parle beaucoup ces derniers temps, par example des moustiques.

Parlons des moustiques et je vais relier ea a une qu est ion beaucoup plus im portante. Parce que, Ma dame la Presidente, je pense que jus qu'a maintenant, on a peut-etre pu faire du developpement economique, social, commercial, sans se soucier trop de quelle s pourraient etre les im pacts sur l'environnement, sur la secu rite et !'hygiene au travail. Et je crois que nous sommes arrives a une epoque ou il serait irresponsable de continuer a fonctionner dans ce sens parce qu'on sait tres bien aujourd 'hui quels sont certains de ces impacts.

Pendant trop de cas, nous ne le savons pas encore, mais nous savons, par exemple, que nous ne pouvons contin uer, par exemple, a ajouter a l'eau a !'atmosp here que nous respirons, a l'eau que nous buvons et au sol qui produit la nourriture que nous mangeons . . . Nous ne pouvons commencer a ajouter des polluants sans se poser la question a savoir est-ce que nous ne sommes peut etre pas en train de contribuer a toutes ces maladies que nous connaissons aujourd 'hui, que ce soit le cancer, que ce soit la scleros enplaque, Reye's Synd rome, que ce peu importe.

Alors, je veux faire allusion a ceci parce que je lisais ce matin dans le journal, entre autres que mon collegue, le depute de Nia kwa, que peut-etre je me placais dans une situation de conflit par exemple, en personnellement penant position sur cette question de vaporisa tion.

Je me dis, Madame la Presidente, est ce que je suis responsable moi-meme si, comme Ministre de l'environnement, je ne prend pas position lorsque je sais que je mets en jeu non pas seulement ma sante, non pas celle de ma famille, non pas celle des citoyens de cette province, mais aussi que je mets en peril l'environnement lorsque je laisse faire toutes ces choses sans dire. On me dira, mais tu ne mourra pas pour une certaine chose.

Evidemment je ne mourai pas pour une certaine chose, meme si c' est un poison qui est destine a detruire les mauvaises herbes, ou que ce soit destine a detruire une varietes d'insectes et ea va aboutir a ce but . . . ea va les detruire les moustiques et les autres insectes, etc . . . eet ea ne detruira pas moi. Mais il en restera un residu dans l'eau. 11 en restera un residu dans le sol, done qu'il s'a joutera a tout la chaine alime ntaire. Ce residu s'accumule dans le systeme humain et il en resulte toutes sortes de choses qui sont encore plus ou moins connues, des effets plus ou moins connus.

La semaine derniere, Dr. Oavies de Toronto soumettait un rapport qui indiquait que, dans toute la chaine alimentaire, que ce soit dans les viandes, les legumes,

• Friday, 30 May, 1986 etc ... elle avait pu deceler a partir d'une etude, qui est la premiere etude de ce genre qui s' est faite au pays, qu'il y a des dioxines a peu pres dans tous les aliments qui font

partie de la chalne alimentale. Et nous voulons aujourd 'hui continuer a ce processus de facon un peu sans se poser de questions ... parce qu'on dit on ne mourra pas. C'est suffisant ... on ne mourra pas. lns uffisant, je ne le crois pas. Alors, de plus, Madame la Presidente, naturellement on joue a la petite politique avec tout ea, parce qu'on ne dit pas la verite non plus.

Ce qui est peut-etre plus malheureux, c' est que meme avec une certaine zone de protect ion, on sait tres bien que tous les citoyens de cette ville, par exemple, vont etre vaporises, meme ceux qui se sont objectes parce que ea ne s'applique sur la rue dont ils habitent et non pas sur la rue du cote est ou du cote ouest ou aux rues perpendiculair es au sud et au nord . . . toutes ces rues done seront vaporisees et done, il n'y a pas une seule propriete malheureusement, meme ceux ... et c'est ea la malhon netete de ce qui a ete dit dans les journaux depuis un certain temps.

Meme ceux qui se sont objecte vont tous etre vaporises. C'est ea qui est malheureux. Parce que si ce n'est pas sur leurs rues, c'est sur la rue voisine qui a 30 metres plus loins et non a 100 metres plus loins. Alors moi je dis, Madame la Presidente, est-ce que . . . et je fais le parall£!1e. Nous sommes commes citoyens de cette planete un peu tous dans un reservoir dans lequel on peut s'imaginer qu'il y a soit de l'eau ou de l'oxygene ... deux elements necessaires a notre survivance.

Malheureusement il y a dans ce reservoir un enorme trou par lequel s'echappe l'oxyg(me ou I' eau si vous avez choisi de faire le parallele avec l'eau. La popul ation augmente mais les deux elements necessaires s'echappent. Est-ce qu'on peut continuer done a prendre des decisions qui sont purement des decisions pour aujourd 'hui parce que on va se defaire d'une nuisance comme les moustiques par exemple, sans attendre quelqu es jours de plus et ea va peut etre se faire de facon toute naturelle par les elements climatiques.

Est-ce qu'on peut done faire des decisions qui sont purement court-terme ou est-ce qu'on a pas !'obligation peut-etre pour les generations futures de prendre des decisions qui sont long-terme. Et done, c' est a partir de ea et c'e st dans ce sensf Madame la Presidente, j'ai eu le bonheur de participer la semaine derniere, a une conference, a une rencontre, pardon, de la Commis sion mondiale sur le developpement et l'environnement.

Ce sont tous des experts qui viennent de plus ieurs pays du monde qui se, avec qui les Mi nistres de l'e nvironnement provinciaux et federal, se rencontrait la semaine derniere a Edmonton. lis ont comme mandat de soumettre un rapport aux Nations Unies en 1987 dans lequel rapport ils vont recommander de nouvelles options du cote environnemental pour le monde. lis ont done une tache done tres im portante qu'ils ne peuvent se permettre de mal faire parce que cette occasion ne se presente pas souvent, ne se representera peut-etre pas dans ce siecle et il est urgent que le monde entier puisse adherer a de nouveaux princi pes du cote environnementale.

Et a cet effet, pour ceux qui n' ont pas encore compris qu elle etait !'im portance de l'environnement dans leur vie, qui placent, de tout autre cote, qui placent la priorite par exemple soit dans !'exploitation de nos ressources, 457 qu'ils soient naturelles, ou qu'ils soient des ressources que nous developpions, je voudrais que tous et chacun se rappellent que si nous detruisons l'environnement, le seul que nous avons, c'est notre avenir, notre survivance qui en depend. Nous savons tres bien deja, Madame la Presidente, ce qui se passe dans les zones arides de I' Afrique.

Nous savons tres bien ce qui se passe du cote de la disparition de nos sols fertiles. Je li sais tout dern ierement que nos sols fertiles disparaissent de 19 milli ons d'hectares par annees. 19 millions d'hectares par annees. C'est le rythme ou nos sols fertiles dis paraissent. Est-il pas urgent que nous entreprenions des mesures radicales pour arreter soit cette avance du desert.

Peut-etre qu'il est deja trop tard, mais il y a li eu de prendr e des decisions impo rtantes. 11 y a lieu de prendre des decisions importantes par exemple chaque fois qu'on decide dans la pl an ifica tion ur baine de creer un nouveau developpement, d'agrandir par exemple en marge de nos grandes villes, en construisant des routes et des batiments sur les terres qui etaient autrefois utilis ees pour !'agriculture. C'est un petit exemple, mais e'en est un pour illu strer ceci.

Est-ce qu'il n'a pas li eu de prendr e decision importante dans I' util isation par exemple de nos sources energetiques, que ce soit !'exploitation de notre, de notre hydrologie pour refaire de l'electricite, de nos ressources min ieres pour fabriquer par exemple une source energetique pour nos reacteurs nuc leaire, l'armement nucleaire.

Est-ce qu'il n'y a pas lieu de considerer des le debut avant meme que nous exploitions ces ressources, avant meme que nous manufacturions de nouveaux produits de commencer tout de suite a considerer ce que nous allons faire avec les dech8ts de ces produits, de cette utilisation et c'est ainsi qu'on se serait poser longtemps avant meme la creat ion d'un premier reacteur nucleaire, longtemps apres la premiere fabrication qu'une bombe nucleaire, on se serait pose peut-etre la question, quel va etre !'i mpact des dechets que nous allons accumuler .

Et naturellement, !'impact ultime serait justement une guerre nucleaire qui, tout de suite, en soi, detruirait cette environnement que nous avons. Alors il y a la une importance capitale pour tous de voir a ce que notre environnement soit protege parce que parmi toutes nos ressources, c'est la plus importante qui nous a ete accordee.

Et relie a ceci, Madame la Presidente, nous avons comme Gouvernement, tout recemment, adopte de nouveaux princi pes fondamentaux que j'ai presente a la Commission mondiale sur le developpement et l'environnement la semaine derniere a Edmonton que mes collegues dans le mini stere de l'environnement ont presente aux aud iences publiqu es aussi cette semaine, nous proposons une serie qui, done, meneront une consideration a plus long terme chaque fois que nous prenons des decisions et a savo ir quel sera l'impact environnementale.

Nous proposons d'apporter dur ant la presente session un projet de loi pour dis cussion dans la periode inter-session, un nouveau projet de

loi sur l'environnemente. Nous venons ce matin d'introduire en premiere lecture un projet de loi pour la mise sur pied d'une corporation de la Couronne pour la gerance des dech8ts dangereux. Du cote, dans le secteur securite et hygiene au travail, Madame la Presidente, nous avons presentement en cour une

Friday, 30 May, 1986 revision de la

loi sur les accidents au travail et nous sommes en train de finaliser un reglement, un projet de reglement concernant la sante au travail et ce dernier aura des repercussions importantes, permettant aux travailleurs manitobains de pouvoir rehausser de nouveau leurs conna issances des matieres et des produits avec lesquels ils travaillent et pour connaitre quels pourraient etre les effets de ces produits sur leurs sante et quelle mesures ils doivent prendre pour se proteger.

En ce qui concerne mon min istere a l'heure actuelle, plusieurs activites importantes pouvant affecter non seulement pas les decisions que nous allons prendre dans l'avenir, mais la facon que nous allons agir dans l'avenir sont a etre prises et toutes ces decisions auront des impacts importants tres pres de nous. Alors nous sommes a une epoque importante et je suis fier que nous sommes en mesure de prendre les decisions et les demarches comme gouvernement que nous devrions prendre si nous sommes consequents et comme parti neo-democrate, nous le sommes et nous allons le faire.

Done, ce qui a ete dit a plusieurs reprises durant la periode electorale et qui a ete repete durant le Discours 458 du Tr6ne et meme dans le Discours du Budget, Madame la Presidente, c'est que nous ne craindrons pas prendre position en faveur du Manitoba et en faveur des Manitobains. Translation will appear in a subsequent issue of Hansard. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: With leave of the House, Madam Speaker, could we call it 12:30? MADAM SPEAKER: Is the Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park adjourning debate? MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes.

MADAM SPEAKER: Is it the will of the House to call it 12:30? (Agreed) The hour being 12:30, the Hous e is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 2:00 p.m. Monday next. -

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-1-16
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 1st hansardpdf 16.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0607eeb2de5067eeeda5eab13d26d5fe70e8539c

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