Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, APRIL 7, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 46

April 7, 1976 The House met at 3:00 P.~. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 1871 0 0 0 ~ffi • SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. ID1 - 1 r-ffi. ROWE: I wish to rise on a question of privilege. Hr. Speaker, with regard to an

article in today's issue of The Daily News. Now, Sir; I would like to point out right at the outset and I am not atta~king the particular

article in question, nor the press reporter in question, but looking through the

article itself it is reasonably accurate, but certain sentences and phrases were taken out of context which leave the wrong impression entirely, Sir, and I am referring to the

article headlined, "Offshore development: Rowe Would Like To See Ownership Question Dropped." Now, Sir, I can quite easily aee why a reporter came out with that particular headline because quite frankly after the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and the Minister of Mines and Energy finished with me I did not know whether I had spoken or I had awakened from a nightmare. MR. NEARY: }IF_. ROWE: Dragged through a wringer. Or dragged through a wringer, because they had so badly twisted the words that I had uttered. MJ',. NEARY: Not true. That is not true. HR.

ROWE: Now, Sir, the LaPoile lippypede might just as well keep quiet now. ~. NEARY: Who gets personal in this House? MR. ROWE: I do not have a dictionary in front of me, Sir, but for all hon. members we all know what a millipede and a centipede is. :t1R. NEARY: somebody who gets - _tffi,. ROIVE: Well the hon. member is a 1 ippypede ~ YF. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. ROlVE: - in other wrds, it is a mouth on legs. SO'~ HON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 5023

April 7, 1976 Tape No. 1 871 ~& . ROWE : Now, Sir , I wish be would accor d me the same ­ !R. NEARY: l>fl1o gets personal :Ill this Hous~? '!1!. Rf'lWE: Now I am going to have silence? NH - 2 t'R . SPEAKER: C'rder, please! The hon. gentleman has a right to be heard in silence and I would also direct him to get on with the actual point - ~~. ROWE: If I am not harassed . · ~. SPEAKER: - without references to the hon. member fo r LaPoile (~•r. Neary) . Thank you, Mr. Speake r.

The only thing I would like to point out, Sir, is that I tJas developing a line of thought on HOnday, and incidentally this came two days after the matter had been straighte ned up, I was developing a line of thought, which incidentally was identical to that of the original m.inister of !-lines and Energy, ~·r . Barry, and that headline is taken out of context and it leaves the w-rong 1mpression complefely. Sir, just to set the record straight, I cannot direct the reporter in question to set the r ecord straight in the newspaper but I would like to bring to his attention ~otion Number 12.which ~02 4

AprH 7, 1976 Tape 1872 IB-1 ~'1' • F • 1'.0\oJE : was moved by nyself, a private members motion which says as follows - and this should set the record straight - BF: TT RESOLVED that this House reaffirms that Newfoundland and Labrador owns, and possesses juris<'i ction in respect of, the resources of the seabed, including mineral ancl hydrocarbons, in the area extending to the ed?e of the ~ontinental Shelf and margin adjacent to Newfoundland and Labrador or to a limit extending two hundred miles fro!'! the inner ] imit of the r:anadian Territorial Sea, whichever is the greater.

Now, Sir, I would like just to bring this to the attention of the Fouse and to the attention of the reporter working with the Daily News just to set the record straight. I thought the record had been set straight yesterday but obviously this was a report that was published in this morninp-'s paper from the events that took place oa Y.onday and not yesterday. MR. SPEAKEP: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. YJ1 . I.l'NDPIGAN: (ln that questi ,on of privilege.

W:!thout going into any detail, I certainly feel the member might have some kind of a cla:lm at any pofnt, that any member to rise and suggest that a headline did not properly reflect what he said. But I believe - and I am not conversant with every detail on pr:lvilege - but certainly there is no question of privi1ege involved. The headline,as I read it, fairly clearly represent:;; the attitude expressed by the member. The details of the

article as v;e] 1 represent the attitude expressed. I fin<' it a bit strange, this kind of attitude that every time a press report comes I out with a little kind of a slant or a little kind of a misrepresentation of the most minute sort, that a member will get up on a question of privile?e. There is no question of privilege. There is an argument, a debate but certainly not a ouestion of privilege. ~~. SPEAKEJ1: The hon. Leader of the Opposition and then the hon. member for LaPoi le. ~'D. • POBETITS : Thank you, Hr. Speaker. I will be very brief with respect to the point.

I think the re~arks made by the hon. gentleman from Grand Falls (~r. Lundr:lgan), the ~linister of Industrial nevelopment, S02::i

April 7, 1976 Tape 1872 IB-2 ]"R. ROBERTS : are very much to the point in the sense that the rules of this House, and the practices of this House require that a so-called point of privilege be taken together with a motion to repair whatever damage is alleged to have been done to the privileges of the House or of the individual me~ber. That is so. But I would also say to the hon. gentleman, and this is what my friend and colleague from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) was doing, that there is in this House a well-e 'stablished practice - we have seen a number of instances of it tM.s year.

Indeed some of his colleagues, Mr. Speaker, have taken advantage of this practice this year and used it - whereby when Orders are called a me~ber rises and states a so-called point of privilege, knowing full well that it is not the usual point of privilege. It is a point of privilege that is recognized, or a procedure that is recognized by this House and he takes advantage of it to read onto the record the correction of what he regards as being a misstatement, a serious misstatement of views which he expressed. I have not looked it up but I will wager, Hr.

Speaker, that we could find a dozen instances this year in this House of this practice being adopted. TVhether or not it should be adopted is a separate matter altogether. But I will say I think it is well established in the practices of this House. Indeed - and there is no way in which the gentleman from Grand Falls (¥r.

Lundrigan) could know this - if he were to look not at the present volume of Standing Orders, the present book which has a blue cover and Which was reprinted before this session of the Rouse, if he would look at the former version which was published wjth a green cover on it,and somebody who was in the House previously might have one in his desk or outside it- AN RON. ~MBER: It was not that one? ¥R. ROB EPT ~: No, it had a green cardboard cover on it - that version included some notes, some annotations which Nere prepared by one of Your Honour's predecessors, }'r.

Speaker Sparks as he then waslwho hangs here in splendor and in glory looking down upon us) one of the ~026

Apr il 7, 1976 Tape 1872 IB-3 '!J'. ROBEP'T'S: notes which 'r. Speaker Sparks put in that version of Standinc Or~ers ~.!as a little note to the effect that in this House members oft en take advantage cf so -called points of privilege which are not points of priviler.e to make a point that they had been misquoted. l'y frienti from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) feels he has been mis<touted. I a~ ree wit h him. S02 7

April 7, 1976 Tape 1873 IB-1 _.llR. ROBERTS: I think he has been misquoted or taken out of context. His views have not been presented accurately. All he is doing now is doing what is well established in the practice of this House, that is making a brief statement of the correct fact and then just asking that the press record it. It is a little different from the point raised by the gentleman from Kilbride (!fr.

Wells) the other day, which again was not a point of pr:l.vilege because he made no substantive motion, but it was a statement by the bon. gentleman which we all heard with interest because I believe it is the proper of the function of the Rouse to hear such statements at this time. So I think my colleague is perfectly in order, Sir, and perfectly withdn the precedents of this chamber. ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of privilege. I would submit to Your Honour that there was really no point of privilege at all, Sir, and I am surprised to hear the bon.

Leader of the Opposition say that he agreed with his colleague when the bon. Leader of the Opposition was not in the House when the statements were made. So therefore how would the Leader of the Opposition know if the hon. member was quoted correctly or n~t? Mr. Speaker, too often in this han. House we point the finger at the press for misouoting members for statements that are made on the floor of this hon. Rouse. Nine chances out of ten, Sir, the statements are the mell'.ber's O"lo'n fault.

When a member opens his mouth and puts his foot into it, then the press, Sir, have no choice but to report "what the hon. gentleman said to the people of this Province. ~d in my opinion, Sir, that is what happened in this particular case. I want to congratulate the news reporter for doing such a fine job of reporting the proceeaings of this hon. House yesterday. I think it was a fine job of reporting and the news reporter was absolutely correct in his statements concerning the remarks made by the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Yr. F. Rowe). MR.

SPEAKER: Before proceeding I think it is necessary to give a 5028

April 7, 1976 Tape 1873 IB-2 NP. SPEAKE:P: ruling in this matter. ~~at essentially has happened is that the hon •. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. J'. Rowe) got up on a point of privi]ege and marle a statement with reference to what he considered to be a misinterpretation or misquotation of his remarks. The han. ~1inister for Industrial and Rural nevelopmeht got up on what I think was essentially a point of order and made his submiss:!on,and then we had the hon. Leader of the Opposition and the bon. member for LaPoile (¥r. Neary) speaking on the matter.

It is my understanding that the practice in this Legislature has been,and continues to be,that a member may rise, get the attention of the Chair, be recognized hy the Chair, by stati.ng point of privilege, When he then begins to speak there are essent:lally two possibil:lties: one, a bona fide, in the strict sense of the term, po:f.nt of privilege, in the strict, technical,parliamentary sense of the term, point of privilege,which must he followed at some time, because usually t~ro things have to ascertained; whether it has come up at the f:lrst possible opportunity, whether there is a prima facie case,and then some substantive motion.

But also in this Legislature people get the attention of the Chair and are recognized by the Chair on a point of privilege in order t'o make a matter of explanation whereby they thi.nk or allege that they have been misunderstood, what they have said or done has been misrepresenteil. and misquoted and misunderstood by the press ,or indeed by somebody else and sometimes by some other member. That is a practice that has continued for some time in this Legislature.

To the best of my knowledge in my readings of the Ottawa Hansard,members of the House of Commons as well have also gotten the attention of the House by ~tetting up on a point of privilege and making, in fact, what is an explanation and not following it up with any substantive motion. To the best of my knowledge that also is a practice :In the House of Commons, perhaps not used as frequently as here. But whether it is or it is not, it is the practice in th:l.s Legislature. So 1 think the hon. gentleman was in order in speaking ~029

/1 ( . ~ .. \ Apr11 7, 1976 Tape 1873 IB-3 ~'P. SPEAJ<En: as he did. The bon . 1-'iniste r of Tourism. l"'R. lliCKF.Y: }'r. Speaker, I would like to give notice to the Rouse that I would like to address myself to a point of personal privilege at the earliest possible moment. I cannot do it today. And I realize, as I understand the rules, that a member should raise the point at the earUest opportunity. That would be today. It is in relation to the P.vening Telegram of yesterday. I refrain from brin~ing the matter up because it has to do with a case which is before the courts)an d out of respect for the court I clo not feel that I should discuss it today. -· '5030·

April 7, 1976 Tape no. 1874 Page 1 - mw }1]1. HICKEY: I would like to point out to the House that it has to do with a company named Cabot Group 4. I have ignored a number of things that have been said in that past. I can no longer ignore those things. I wish to clarify my position, and I would like to do so when the· case before the court is disposed of. MR. ROBERTS: Point of order, ~r. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. NR.

ROBERTS : I have every sympathy with the hon. gentleman if he feels that The Evening Telegram I assume he is referring to the news story about a criminal charge which was laid yesterday here in St. John's - and if the hon. gentleman feels the Telegram have defamed him in some way then I certainly have every sympathy with his desire and his wish to clear his name, or whatever the correct phrase. Clearing his name may be the wrong phrase, because that would imply there is something to be cleared away. But my point of order, Mr.

Speaker, is this: I do not think there is anything in our rules or in the practice and precedents that would require or even permit the matter to be postponed. We are not allowed to discuss a court case here. That is a restraint we imposed, and a wise one, and we accept i~. But, Sir, we are certainly required to dispose of a matter of personal privilege or privilege of the House as quickly as we can.

The only reason I have ever heard of it being delayed - and if Your Honour looks at Beauchesne, the only reason is to prepare a transcript, or to get, if it is a tape recording outside. to get a tape recording of the offending words.

So I would think, Sir, the hen. gentleman, if he wishes to proceed with it - and I certainly have every sympathy with him, and would urge him to proceed U he feel$ he wishes - the hen. gnetleman, Sir, should proceed il11Illediately with whatever action he has in !'lind, because I do not think it :f.n any I<Tay, Sir, is barred or prohibited by the rule of timeliness with respect to privilege. I would also say, of course, Sir, that since the statements in question were made outside the House, indeed were published in the paper, the hen. gentleman, if he feels he has been defamed, also has the ~031

Xpril 7, 1976 Tape no. 1874 Page 1 - mw Mr. Robert s . same remedy open to him that the gentleman from Kilbride has availed himself of with respect to certain statements made on another medium recently and that is namely to, you know, instruct a solicitor to take action in the High eourt, the Supreme Court in this Province, of course, on a charge of libel. But that is beside the point. MR. NEARY: Whether it is frivolous does not make any difference ~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERtS: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman from LaPoile, Sir, persists in interrupting, I would ask him to try to ebserve the rules of the House as best he can, Sir, My point, Sir, is that I do not think the timeliness rule works in this case, in this instance, in the way in which the gentleman from St. John's East Extern (Mr. Hickey), the Minister of Tourism, has suggested. I raise it as a point of order, because I think it should be settled. Your Honour may well wish to hear further argument.

Your Honour may well wish ao consider the point, because I am not sure it has ever been raised before,at least in this Chamber, but I think it is a valid point, and if the bon. Minister of Tourism feels, as he obviously does, that he has been treated improperly by !he ~vening Telegram - and this is a very serious matter - then I, for one, feel he should be given every opportunity, Sir, to dispose of the matter in the House as quickly as possible. It may well take weeks or months to dispose of criminal action.

You know, they do take a long time; and I would think the han. gentleman, Sir, would not want to rest a moment beyond what he must. I think he raised the point feeling he must. What I am saying to him in my view, Mr. Speaker, is that I do not think he must at all. In fact,I think he must move now, and he should move now, and I would encourage him so to do,if it is in order. ~032

Aprn 7, 1976 Tape no. 1874 Page 3 - mw The hon. member for LaPoile. ~IR. SPEAKER: ~. NEARY: ~. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, to that point of privilege. Mr. Speaker, I - Just to interrupt the hon. gentleman. Actually we are now on a point of order. ~. NEARY: Point of order? I thought it was a point of personal privilege raised. Well,to that point of order, Sir. Mr. Speaker, I am inclined to agree with the bon. Minister of Teurism that he should be permitted, Sir, to give notice that at the earliest opportunity he will be proceeding with appropriate action against fhe Evening Telegram for publishing the story.

I do not know what it is the bon. member disagrees with. But, Sir, we had•· a precedent established in this House last week by the hon. member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) who sat on his rights for two. days, Sir. MR. WELLS: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. ~. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised. ~. NEARY: There is a point of order, Mr. Speaker, before the House. ~. WELLS: I am speaking to a point of order. ~. SPEAKER: There is another ona to be heard now I am afraid. ~. WELLS: Another one has been raised. MR. NEARY: There cannot be two, Mr. Speaker. There cannot be two. ~. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I am not sure that there cannot be two. If in speaking to a point of order a person is,in the opinion of another hon. member, out of order- MR. NEARY: But the hon. minister can reply. MR. SPEAKER; - then that is a second point of order which you have to dispose of first before coming back to the original point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, you cannot have two points of order. MR. WELLS: A point of order has been raised. ~. SPEAKER: In my opinion you can, and we do. MR. WELLS: Yes. SOME HON. MEMBERS : He~r • hear! AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down! S033

April 7, 1976, Tape 1875, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: the rules. MR. WELLS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. WELLS: Most unusual. You cannot, Sir. That is against If I may, on the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! Mr. Speaker, on the point of order Your Honour is unquestionably correct. Otherwise, under the guise of speaking on a point of order an hon. member could get up and say anything under the sun, Whether it was relevant or irrelevant would not matter. So obviously a point of order can be raised 1otherw:i.se, as I say, anything would go in this House.

Sometimes I think that is the case, but obviously it is not so by the rules. The bon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is now speaking on a point of order to do with the point raised by the hon. minister, but he is seeking now to drag in a completely different matter that is different in every respect to everything about the previous matter of privilege which was discussed in this House earlier this week. It is completely different. There is no analogy present. This has nothing to do with it.

We are talking about the bon. minister's right to raise a point of privilege,and whether it should be dealt with at a later date or it should be dealt with sooner or now. That is my point of order and the hon. gentleman's remarks - MR. NEARY: Ha! that is no point of order. MR. WELLS: If I may finish. I know it is difficult but I would like to finish, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman's remarks accordingly, I submit, are entirely out of order and he should be prohibited from dealing with other matters on this point of order. MR.: NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I would submit to Your Honour that my remarks are in order, Sir, that I feel that the rules of this House should apply equally to all members, that we should not make chalk of one and cheese of the other, and if the member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) has the right and the privilege to come into this hon. House and to give notice of a point of privilege, then my hon. friend the Minister of

April 7, 1976, Tape 1875, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Tourism should have the same right. Both involve personal privilege. Not privilege of the House, Sir, personal privilege. A matter of personal privilege. The member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) sat on his rights for two or three days. Five days after, I think, the speech made by me. The minister said he was waiting for the transcripts. He could have very easily had the transcripts much earlier, Sir. Much earlier. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

What I would wish to do now is dispose of the second point of order, then the hon. gentleman could continue with the original point of order on which he was speaking. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: No, I am not finished with this one yet, Sir. Well I am in a position •now to make a judgement on it and I think the sooner we dispose of it then we will get back to the original - MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Is this closure? Is this closure, Mr. Speaker? This is not closure 1 and the hon. gentleman does not, as he knows, have the right to debate my ruling.

There is one recourse which all hon, members have but he does not have the right to debate my ruling. MR. NEARY: not debating it. MR. SPEAKER: I am not debating Your Honour's ruling. I am I have now stated that I am now in a position to give a decis~on on the second point of order which will then be disposed of and we shall return to the first point of order, On the second point of order;it certainly would be incorrect for any member in speaking on a point of order to enlargen the area. It must be specifically on the point of order raised.

And we are dealing with the original point of order, one brought up by the Leader of the Opposition 1 with respect to the statement made by the hon. the Minister of Tourism, So I would ask the hon. member and any hon. members who are going to speak on the point of order to confine their remarks to that point of order. I think I should add as well that a statement or suggestion that the 5035

April 7, 1976, Tape 1875, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: rules apply equally on various sides is the type of statement which n.o bon. member, in my opinion, should make. SOME RON. MEMB~RS : Rear, hear! MR.Z SPEAKER: I think the rules, to the best of my knowledge and to the best of my ability, the rules apply equally to all members on all sides. I am not suggesting that the hon. gentleman stated the contrary. MR. NEARY: the same side, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: As a matte-r of fac.t, the two lllelllbers are on I am st4ting that to l!Ulke that 5036

April 7, 1976 Tape 1876 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: statement can certainly easily lead to wrong

interpretations. So I would suggest it is probably a sentence or a kind of statement which hon. members should refrain from making. The hon. member from LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, and I am certainly glad you raised that point, Your H6nour, because as Your Honour knows the two gentlemen that I am referring to sit on the same hon. side of the House, the opposite side to the Opposition.

So in no way, shape or form, Sir, did anybody on this side of the House in this debate suggest that Your Honour or anybody else was impartial-or partial in this whole matter because in this particular case, Your Honour, the two gentlemen are colleagues sitting on the government side of the House. And so what I am saying, Sir, not Mr. Speaker that the same rules apply to one side that apply to the other, but that the rules apply equally to all members of the House, no matter what side they sit on. And I am glad that '.'our Honour upholds me in that st:atement, Because last week the member for Kilbride (Mr.

Wells) was allowed to give notice of a question of personal privilege, the Minister of Tourism is following the precedent established last week,following it in the House today,and I am inclined to agree, Sir, that the Minister of Tourism should be given the right, the same rights as the member for Kilbride, to give noti~e of personal privilege, and I am all for him. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. HELLS: There is no doubt in my mind, Mr. Speaker, that the cause of a breach of personal privilege can arise outside the House. Now obviously the point raised by the hon.

Minister of Tourism arose outside of the House, but I feel perfectly right in bringing it up inside of the House in asking the House to - MR. ROBERTS: There is no quarrel with that. MR. WELLS: There is no quarrel with that, - asking that it be disposed of. I s~ the

article in question. I believe it deals with a court case involving another group,somebody other than the

\ April 7, 1976 Tape 1876 PK- 2 }1R. WELLS: hon. minister. That being so I feel that the hon. minister would have the right not only to give notice but to have the matter dealt with very quickly. Now it is something that, my personal feeling and submission is to Your Honour that the minister ought to be given the opportunity to deal with it right away, right now. Your Honour may wish to take some time to and consider it la.ter this afternoon, But I believe the hon. minister should be allowed to deal with that matter today and that is my submission to the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. J. CROSBIE: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I want to refer to Beauchesne page 95. Now whether the hon. gentleman goes ahead with his point of privilege now or does it later I submit that he bas the right to give notice now and that the matter can be dealt with later in this session, a week later, a month later, six months. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, bear! MR. CROSBIE: The matter should be raised at the earliest opportucity this

section says, page 95, and it goes on to say in that paragraph, "A matter which is postponed to suit the convenience of the House or to secure the attendance of a member implicated, or to give the Speaker an opportunity to consider it fully does not forfeit priority when eventually raised." So the hon . gentleman is quite in order in raising this now, and could go ahead with it, if the House agrees,at any time, It does not have to be dealt with it this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I might just say another word.

There certainly is no doubt at all as to the - I have just been looking up Sir Erskine May which is sort of, I guess, one step beyond Beauchesen, in the sclle of authorities, the authority on which Beauchesne relies in many cases, There is no doubt at all but the hon. gentleman may raise a matter now and proceed with it later if · ·r.o.D.a . . ;J. ~

April 7, 1976 Tape 1876 PK - 3 Mr. Roberts: that i s the wish of the nouse. ~'l' . S~IALLWOOO : '~'hat i ~; ri r.h t • ~m. ROBERTS: Sure,that is common ground. But as I understood the ~!inister of Tourism,he has the opinion .or was of t he opinion,which 1 believe to be incorrec t, bu t as I understood he felt t hat the rules said he must wait.

And the point which 1 make is that I do not think he has to wait. 1 think that if he wishes to proceed this day he may proceed this day. and if that is so I would urge him to proceed this day bec ause the very essence of privilege, Sir, it is not unlike libel, and it is essential that the damage, the harm be counteracted as quickly as possible. I think that is the r eason we have the timeliness rule , as being the essence of privilege , is that if a member 1 s privile~e or the House 1 s priviler.e are offende d chen we must ac t quickly to repair the damage.

And I think the hon . ~inis tet of Touris m, as l l\eard his statement, was under the impr ession or of the opinion t hat the rules prevented him from dealing with this matter this day because it happens to refer to a matter, in which he is not i nvolved,before the Criminal Courts of this Province . And I do not think the rules do prohibit him from - MR . LUNDRICAN: liP. cloefl not thin lr that . ~039

April 7, 1976. MR. ROBERTS: Tape 1877 RH - 1 The member for Grand Falls(Mr. Lundrigan) seems to know what the Minister of Tourism thinks. I only know what the Minister of Tourism says. All I raised the point of order for is that I have asked for a ruling as to whether or not he may proceed this day. There is no doubt that if he does not want to proceed he does not have to proceed. But I would hope that if he can proceed, Sir, I would urge him to proceed. This is a very serious matter. I do not know exactly what the minister is complaining about. I ~ave seen the

article in question. It deals with certain criminal charges in which the minister is not involved. But it mentions the fact that the gentleman who has been charged in that criminal matter apparently is an acquaintance of the minister. That is what the newspaper

article says in so many words. The minister obviously wishes to take objection. In view of the seriousness of this matter I would think the minister would want to act as quickly as he can to try to set straight the record. That is why I raised the point of order. For once I am trying to help the hon. minister. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio, and then the hon. Minister of Tourism. HR. R. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I think there is sufficient agreement in the various submissions that have been made on this point of order, Mr. Speaker, that I would ask, Mr.

Speaker, to ask the hon. minister if he wishes to proceed with it now or later,because I think it is his choice entirely. I think that will resolve the matter. MR.. ROBERTS: He can proceed if he wishes. MR. WELLS: Oh, yes. I think so. MR. SPEAKER: Is the han. minister now speaking to the point of order? MR. HICKEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I just want to clear a couple of things. The reason I approached this issue in the way I did was for two reasons; I was unsure. I did not think the rules of the House prevented me from debating, but nevertheless I was not sure. So I did not want to be in breach of the rules. HR..

ROBERTS: That point is resolved.

April 7, 1976. Tape 1877 RH - 2 HR.HICKEY: Ri~ht. Secondly, I certainly, out of respect for the court - it is well known that one does not discuss,or have a discussion which may border on the issue before the court while indeed that issue is before it and not disposed of. So out of respect for the court I simply approached it in a way where I would give,notice that I would rise whenever I could. I have since discussed this with my colleague, the House Leader. He knows the issue that I wish to take issue with, the matter I wish to take issue with.

He is of the opinion that it will not indeed prejudice the case or affect the case. If that is so, and I accept what he says, then certainly I am prepared to proceed. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. To the sanie point of order? HR. NF.ARY: No, Sir, a point of order. I am making a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A different one? Proceed. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw the attention of the han. members of the House to rulings on numbers of occasions in this han.

House that have been made by Your Honour that no matter that is before the court is to be permitted to be debated or discussed on the floor of this House. I have good reason, Your Honour, for stating that that ruling was made because I have been the subject of the ruling on a number of occasions by Your Honour when I tried to raise matters that were before the court, that my remarks in this han. House would in no way influence the decision of the court. I was ruled out of order. I was told that the matter could not be debated.

Other members, the member, I believe, the Hinister of Hines and Energy,who tried to raise matters a couple of times to rebut debates, my arguments put forward in this han. House,was ruled out of order, I believe, on one occasion. So there is ample precedent in this House, Your Honour, for what my han. friend, the Minister of Tourism is saying, that we are either breaking new ground, Sir, : .. 5041

April 7, 1976 . Tape 1877 Rll - 3 MR. NEARY: or we are going to stick by the precedents that have been established in this hon. House for the last four or five years I suppose. ~m. SPEAKER: The point of order raised by the hon. gentleman is, in my opinion, very closely related to the original point of order raised by the Leader of the Opposition . I think that both can be handled together. Firstly, certainly in my opinion the hon . minister if he wishes to make a statement on a point of privilege now may do so . I think that that was essentially the matter which first arose.

The hon. minister was apparently of the opinion because certain matters we-re bef ore the court he might be prohibited !rom speaking on a point of privilege. So I think it is quite clea-r that t~e bon. ministe-r,if be wishes,may speak to a point of privilege now. Now as I unde-rstand it . ,5;04·2

April 7, 1976 Tape 1878 PK- 1 Mr. Speaker: what the han. minister is going to speak to is a matter of privilege affecting himself or the House, I believe it is probably himself, but whichever it is, it is not his intention to rise to speak substantively on a matter which is before the court; that in speaking he is not going to speak on a matter which is to be adjudicated in court, but on a matter which affects his privilege, on what he considers to be a breach of privilege.

And if my understanding of that is correct, then there is no need- unless my understanding is incorrect- there is no need to make a decision on the quite precise question, and indeed quite complex one on which I would not give a decision without having an apportunity to research it, and that would be which takes precedence the sub judice rule or the privilege rule, because the privilege is about, certainly in the order of business in t~is Legislature, privilegeis of the highest priority. smm HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.

SPEAKER: A matter of privilege can and must, and can, and does at times interrupt any proceedings apart from a vote. So it is of the highest priority in the order of business, it takes precedence over any government order, private members' resolution, it takes precedence over anything. However, the decision to how the priority which this Legislature accords to privilege and the general rule of sub judice,how they are reconciled arid what the priority is, is something which I would not wish to make a decision on without doing certainly some research and some consultation.

I do not think at this moment that it is necessary to give a decision on that, because the essential point,as I understand it,is whether the han. minister has the right to speak now on a matter of personal privilege affecting him, or affecting the House, and in my opinion, he does have that right. The han. Minister of ~ourism. MR. T. HICKEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Based on the ruling. Your Honour, it seems that there is no objection to my proceeding. The matter of privilege, Mr. Speaker, 5043

April 7, 1976 Tape 1878 PK - 2 Mr. Rickey: I refer to is in relation to an item in The Evening Tel egram dated yesterday, and it refers to a case that is before the court involving a company by the name of Cabot Group 4 Limited, and involving an official of that company whom there is no need for me to name because members of the House are well aware, as indeed the public are aware the name referred to in this item. I find no quarrel, Mr. Speaker, with most of the article, with the exception of the last paragraph, wherein it says, ~Mr. So­ and-So is also known as a close friend of Mr.

Hickey and resided for a brief period some time ago in the minister's suite at Elizabeth Towers." Now, Mr. Speaker, on at least a half a dozen occasions, being jostled by friends in the Opposition, in relation to work performed by that company, that statement or something bordering on it might have been said. And I responded in the usual way in the House - did not take it too seriously, Your Honour. It appeared in the press at least three or four times after that and I ignored it.

Now, Your Honour,there is a case before the Court, and I might say such a close friend this gentleman is of mine, The Evening Telegram and the journalist who wrote this

article is so accurate that the case is indeed before the court because of an action taken by me against this individual of this company. The case would not be before the court, Your Honour, without the action as taken by me, for I am the aggrieved party, on the one hand, I suppose the government could be classified as that as well. But because of actions taken by myself,knowing and being aware and having proof that this individual was the person involved, took that action because it was proper to take it. 5044

April 7, 1976 Tape No. 1879 Hr .• I!I.CKEY: ~ry 'lUCstion or privilege,Your Honour, is that there is an implication in this silly, stupid statement whjch ends that

article in the paper. I would ask the gentleman or the lady, whoever it was NM- 1 '~ho 'rrote it,to define what a close friend is. 1fuat is a close friend? Because somebody gives lodgings to a person, does that make him a close friend? Certainly not from the way I grew up '(our Honour. "y family and I have been in the habit to assist people we did not know. AN H0N. }'!EJ'BER: Take somebody in for a night? MR. HICKEY: Yes. noes that automatically make this person a close friend of mine?

I reluctantly,Your Honour,raise the issue because I do not appreciate and I do not like, take no satisfaction out of involving myself in this kind of an issue. But a little while ago, Your Honour J I indicated to the House~and through the House to the press, that I was not prepared any longer to take this kind of innuendo, __ implication, silly, snide remarks go on, and I am not. I am not going to allow it because I have had all of it that I am going to tnke, that is why I stand todav. The statement that this gentleman is a close friend of mine is absolutely erroneous.

The gentleman is an acquaintance of mine, was an acquaintance of mine when he and his company did business with my department, ,.;ras no more than that then and certainly is no more than that now. Nothing has changed,Your Honour, in the relationship between the gentleman and I with the exception of one thing,and that is he did business with my department for a period of t:l.me, long, long, long before the incident that is before the court took place, that , relationship in terms of doing business with my department was severed, discontinued.

I simply want to point out I do not know for the life of me what the significance is of pointing out that this gentleman ts a close friend of Mr. Hickey. Is one to read something into that? Is one to-conclude that there is collusion between that gentleman and Mr. Hickey? If that is the issue, Mr. Speaker, if that is the message fi-045

April 7, 1976 Tape No. 1879 N}l' - 2 RR. HICKEY: where is their decency, their simple guts? Why do they not print it? I assure this House, Your Honour, I have never lied to this House. I gave what information I could give. I gave what explanations I could give with regards to this gentleman, this company on many an occasion. I have not deceived the House ever. I do not ever intend to. I do not know what all of this is about and I simply ask the press in the name of decency 0 if nothing else,to stop it. MR.

SPEAKER: Before calling •Statements by Ministers' I would like to point out to hon. members the presence in the Rouse of a delegati~n from the Badger Town Council including Mayor Coleman and Councillors Davis and Stuckless, and · certainly these gentlemen,on·behalf of all hon. members,! welcome you to the Legislature and hope that your visit will be interesting, MR. PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you.

I would like, Sir, to present a petition sip:ned by approximately 1,000 voters who live in the district of Exploits, which district is one of t~e three that currently does not have a member in the House of Assembly. The pr~yer of the petition, Mr.

Speaker, I think is quite succinctly stated in the document itself and if I may I will just read it,it is quite brief, ·~e the undersigned as eligible voters of the district of Exploits request that the Premier and the government of this Province recognize immediately that it is our right to have an elected member to the Rouse of Assembly to represent the interests of this district.

"In coaaideration of the fact that the House of Assembly is currently opened,and approximatey two months have elapsed since the election for Exploits was ruled null and void 1we humbly request that a specific date be set for the by-election and that the by-election itself be held before the end of April~'

April 7, 1976 Tape 1RRO IB-1 HR. ROBF:l'TS: ~r. Speaker, my colleagues and I present this petition, or J present it and my colleagues and I support it,not in any partisan sense because I believe this is a matter which transcends parti.sanship. The district of Exploits, Sir, was declared vacant by the Supreme rourt as a resuJ t of an action taken accordinp.: to the F.lecti ·on Act. It was declared vacant on January 30, 1976,which is more than t~1o months past.

Since then, as Your Honour is aware, t~~ other districts have been declaren- or the elections have been declared null and void, and as a result there are three districts 'lo.-.h:!ch are not represented in this House-. ~r. Speaker, only the voters of those districts can determine ~·ho their representatives are to be,but they can only exercise that ~eterm:!nation, ~1r, in an election and the election can he he]d only if the Lteutenant-r.overnor in rouncil, the Prem:!.er and hi.s colleapues of the cahinet,order it to be held. ~r. Speaker, t<·e beHeve the election should he hel~.

He believe the people in the ~!strict of Bxplotts and i.n the ~; stri rt of 'lnnav:l sta North and of F'erryJ and should be given the 0pportunity to exercise their rip.>,ts, their ripht to vote for a man or a woman to come here to this House as their member. There is no reason Hhy the districts should not have elections, Sir. '!'here is every reason why they should. I present the petition, S:!r, in the hope that the Premier and h1s collear,ues in the cah1net wil1 take heed to the request of, as J Sfly, approximately 1,000 people ~·hich would he a very higtJ proportion of the eligible eJectors in that d:lstrict.

I know some of the'". I kn"' ' they a~e Liberal and Tory alik~. It is not a matter of a partisan­ ship, Sir; they <lant to vote for a l'lernher. Only the government can f!;ive them that vote, Sir. I ask and nrge the government to do :It and to do :It as quickly .;s possihJe. SC1~'!': HC1N. !'TI>'J!El>S : '{ear, hear! 1-'1'. SP~AY.F.i>: The hon. ''1n:! ster of Industrial J'evelopment. ~'1'. LlTNDT'IGAN: Now, >1r. Speaker, of the pet:ltion, the petition Fas more or less addressed to the Premier directly and the governrrent, and

April 7, 1976 '!'ape 1880 IB-2 MR. LUNDRICAN: of course, the Pre~ier has the option of making that particular decision. I just wish to say that the Premier is not in the House today. He is unavoidably absent. He will have the petition drawn to his attention,! am sure .

And the thing which amazes me in just saying that I agree that every district needs early representation when there has been a district declared null and void or an election declared null and void rather, what amazes me is that the Leader of the Opposition in presenti .ng this petit:l .on in an unpartisan way, an unpolitical way, an unparty ,.ray, no emphasis on the fact that he was out to the c1istrict a few c1ays ago and held public meet:lngs wherein he requested that the people - p . ROBERTS: ~ 'r. Speaker, to a point of order. ~~. SPEAKE~: A point of order has been raised. ~.

ROBERTS: I have been in the district of Exploits on a number of occasions, Sir. I indeed will be there again this evening. I have not attended a public meet:lng in the district of Exploits for some time. If the gentleman from Grand Falls (~r. Lundrigan), Sir, wishes to enter debate, I regret that I am not allowed to,nor is he,I submit ,in this. But at any rate if he wishes to quote me, Sir, · or allege 1I'Y activities, let him quote me correctly anc1 let h:!.m allege my activities correctly, S:lr. 1 did not solicit the petition,if the hon. gentleman thinks I djp. t'J?.

SPEJ\KE~ : On tr.at point of order: As all hon. members know in speakin g to a petition an hon. member must confine himself to e:lther the names on the petition or the number of the material allegations of the petition, the basic request of the petition. The hon. Yin:lster of Industrial Development. ~lP.. LtmnRIGI\N : Yes, Your Honour . I apologize to the hon. member. It is the Bonavista North area I guess he held his public meetings in ,which also is a district that has been declared null and void - or the election was.

But the amazing thing that strikes my attentjon - and this is someth:lng that perhaps if we were better politicians and

.'\prH 7, 197«' Tape 1!~80 IB-3 ~ . tr~mr>:rr.AN: pt?rhaps a little td t more partil>an ourselves we '•"Ol!l,cl have been makinp. puhljc st:otements - that the Prime "'inister of the country has lett t:he seat in St . .John'!" !~est vacant for what will be over a yea r. }'lr.. P. ROl-lE': t.. point of order. 'tn. SPEA!G:II>: A pe>)nt of order has been raised. XI>. I.l'NnRlr.AN: 1\nd the pdncipJe that the bon. - ~<n. F. RCltffi: A point of orc!er. ~'11. !-:!'EAKER: 11 point of order has be en raised. >m F. PO'-'E: ''r . Spe<lker.

I submit to You1: Honour that the ~':!n:i.ster of Ind ustrial a·nd !'ural nevelopm ent is no~t on an entirely di.fferent suh.iect a] togethe r in flea] inp with St . .Tohn 1 s Hest. The minister or anv other hon. metnber in th1s llouse can get up and support a petition <~nd they have tCI confine their rel!!arkl> to that pet:!cion. Tn thi.s particular instance we are talk'l.nr. about the district of F.xplo1ts, not the fecleraJ r iding of St . John 1 s ~<est. Neither is the minister, or any ot her meJ1'.be-r\aJlo.wed to enter into debate when supporting a petition . ' 'r.

Speaker, on that point of order before continuing . . ·5049

April 7, 1976 . Tape 1881 RH- 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: Because of my respect for a lot of school marms in the Province I will not accuse the bon. member of being a school marm. But you cannot rise in the House to get a sentence out but the bon. member is misquoted, misrepresented, misjudged, anticipated, points of order, and this is the reason I rose earlier on a point of order or something earlier, that the han. member in particular abuses the rule on points of order and question of privilege worst than I have ever seen in my life. A"l HON. MEMBER: Right. Right. MR.

LUNDRIGA."l: Stanley Knowles would not even get along with him. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think we are now in a position to dispense with the point of order raised, Certainly one point,that there could be no debate on a petition 1 is certainly a valid one. The second point, or after the first one made in the timing of the hon. gentleman's remarks, was with represent the hon. minister was speaking on or about a different by-election, a by-election in St. John's West. Certainly the han. minister in speaking to the petition must be relevant.

This would certainly mean to make a speech on by-elections somewhere else would not be relevant. If one were to make a brd:l!f comparison, I suppose, or a passing reference to things being related that would be in order. I think it would be a question of emphasis, a passing kind of reference, then I do not think in itself would be out of order. But a direction of more than that kind of a reference or a comparison to directing one's remarks to a different by-election than the one referred to in the petition could well be and I think would be irrelevant. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Thank you, Your Honour, for that ruling.

Just to complete my re~rks 1 I was referring to the principle of calling by-elections, the principle of calling early by-elections,and supporting the principle that people should be given the earliest opportunity, bearing in ~ind all of the realities of a situation as we have in this Province, of having earlier representation. I was merely pointing out to the House

April 7, 1Q76. HR. LUNDRIGA.'l: Tape lRRl Rll - ?. that I find it contradictory in the presentation by the Leader of the Opposition when he says that he presents a petition with no bias or no partisanship at all. I find that attitude today, I find his public attitude totally contradictory,because he has never uttered a word about his mentor in Ottawa who have kept the people in St. John's West for thirteen months without representation. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I would suggest the hon. minister is now getting beyond the point of comparison or reference and i.s entering the area of debate. HR.

LU!-.'"DRIGAN: Yes, Your Honour, I will have to agree with that. But I could not resist pointing out the level of mixed standard presented by the Leader of the Opposition. UR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to support the petition presented on behalf of over 1,~00 residents, voters in the district of Exploits who tvant the by-election held in that district at as early a date as possible. I think they have a very justifiable case, Mr. Speaker. I do believe in accordance with the Election Act, ~!r.

Speaker, that the hon. the Premier is compelled under the Election Act,although I understand there is a loophole in the act, but under the Election Act the Premier has,or the Leader of the administration, I presume, has six months in which to .call a by-election. I do not know. The six months have not expired yet, Hr.

Speaker, but even though the hon. the Premier has six months in which to call the by-election, not only in Exploits but in the other two districts, I would submit to the House, Your Honour, that there is a moral obligation on the part of the Premier and the government to give the people, the voters, the citizens of Exploits an opportunity to go to the polls at an early a date as possible so that they can have representation in this House, so they can elect their member to this House to look after the many problems that they have in the district of Exploits. I do not care what government does, Sir.

I think leaving a seat vacant for six months, for a year, for eighteen months is morally wrong. I do not care whether it is the p.:overnment of this Province, the Premier rf this Province .··-£.051

April 7, 1976. Tape 1881 RR - 3 MR. NEARY: or any other Province or the Prime Minister of Canada, it is wrong, Sir, If there are :oopholes in the present Election A.ct,I would suggest to the House that during this sitting of the Rouse that these loopholes be plugged ao that there will be a livdtation put on the amount of til:le that the Premi er has to call a by-election when a seat becomes vacant.

April 7, 1976 Tape no. 1882 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. l~iiTE: }lr. Speaker, I would like to support the prayer of the petition as presented by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. Since that seat became vacant some months ago I have been looking after it on behalf of my party, and I find that there are a lot of people in the district who have many complaints, and many things they would like their member to look into. Frankly, Mr.

Speaker, I get four or five calls a day from that particular district of the Province, and I think it is very important that the people have a chance to express their electoral right as quickly as possible.

I feel tl~t now that the court case has been taken care of - the general election was only last September - it is important to get the full complement of members in this !louse before much time passes by, and for that reason I would like to support this petition, and ask that the Premier call the by-election as soon as possible so that the people there cari have a member they can turn to, and they will not have to - you know, sometimes they have to apologize for aalling me because they know that I am not their member, but, of course, I will do what I can for them.

Tlut it is important, I think, that they get a member in the House as quickly as possible. SO!!E RON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: To that petition, }rr. Speaker. Of course, the government recognizes that by-elections have to be called. It is the responsibility of the Premier and a decision of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council when the by-election is called and, of course, it will be called within the rules. And I appreciate, and we appreciate it is the right of the petitioners to bring their wishes to the floor of the House of Assembly as they have done.

It is rather a different matter to set a time limit on the calling of the election, because there is a twenty-one day writ. It is now, for practical purposes, impossible if it were called today to have the by-election by the end of April. But on S.053

April 7, 1976 Tape no. 1882 Page 2 - mw MR. WELLS: the by-election, a decision will be made by the government within the rules and the by-election will be called in due course so that the people of these and the other distri.cts will not be without representation here, Hr. Speaker. ~. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, just a word or two in support of the petition presented by my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition.

The district of Exploits, of course, includes among other communities the town of Bishops Falls where I spent a number of years, fifteen altogether, and having that particular interest, having spent so many years there, I would like to particularly identify with the support that has been expressed for the petition. It is important that the people of Bishops Falls, together with Botwood and Peterview and Northern Arm and Point Leamington, Leading Tickles and the other communiities in the outer part of that district have representation in the House of Assembly. That goes without saying.

The fact that each of us is here as a member bespeaks the truth of what I have just said, that it is important that each district, and each citizen of this Province have an electoral voice in the House 6f Assembly. I am disappointed to hear in the response of the Minister without Portfolio that he did not, obviously, sense any urgency in the matter. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, it is enough to say that it will be done within the rules, but I would submit, Nr.

Speaker, that it is more important that it be done wtthin the requirements of the situation, and the requirements are that it be done very, very quickly unless, of course, the Premier or his colleagues can advance some good reason why the matter has to be delayed. Were that the case, if that is the case, then I am sure that the people of Exploits, and all of us generally, will understand. But in the absence of some good reason for delay, the obvious requirement is that the election be called without any further delay. I always enjoy the comments of the Minister of Industrial

April 7, 1976 Tape no. 1882 Page 3 - mw Mr. Simmons. and Rural Development. He has his own unique contribution to bring to the debate here, and I would be tempted, Mr. Speaker, to get into the discussion on St. John's West. There are so many things that could be said about that. I 1rould like to see that one called soon,too. One could be snide, one could be snide, Mr. Speaker, and suggest that the people up there have not begun to miss their member, they have not gotten used to a member, and perhaps they have not begun to miss one yet, and perhaps that is why we do not see petitions there. MR.

NEARY: Is this in order, Mr. Speaker? MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, old Mr. Law~and-Order himself is now keeping us straight for a change. That is a pleasant change. Hr. Speaker, the people of Exploits got used to a member. Steve Mulrooney, when he sat here, got the people - MR. W. CARTER: To a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised. MR. W. CARTER: I submit to you, Sir, that I agree with your ruling, with respect to.·:my colleague, the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundriganl, that maybe he was entering into the realm of debate in his reference to the ~acancy that exists in St. John's West.

But I submit, too, Sir, that the hon. member who now has the floor - MR. SIMMONS: The minister did not object then. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member who is now speaking from Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) is also out of order in that he is - MR. NEARY: He is never in order. MR. W. CARTER: - in that he has departed from the issue at hand in his reference to the district of St. John's West.

April 7, 1976 Tape 1883 PK - 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: It is also dishonest and false. MR. W. CARTER: I submit, Mr. Speaker, it is unfair. It is untrue, MR. SIMMONS: What do you meani, i .t is dishonest and it is false? Stand up and prove it, boy. MR. W. CARTER: - and it is certainly out of order. MR. SIMMONS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there is an example of what the Minister of Industrial Development was talking about,where people use points of order to get into the debate.

I submit the Minister of Fisheries bas entered no point of order whatsoever, but bas used the opportunity to participate in a debate and this is no time for debate. Mr. Speaker, I was doing what · your ruling earlier permitted the Minister of Industrial Deve1opment to do, to make a brief comparative reference to St. John's West. Indeed I had already left the matter and gone back to Exploits, which is the subject of the petition,before I was interrupted. AN RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: Certainly the applicable rule is that, obviously, the bon. gentleman must speak on the material allegation, the subject matter of the · petition.must be quite strictly relevant to the petition, a passing reference or, you know, a comparison to a matter distinct but comparable certainly as a reference or comparison would not be ruled out of order.

To develop further remarks or remarks at any length on something which is not the subject matter of a petition would be out of order, To a large extent it is a question of emphasis and I ask bon. members in this area to remember that a passing reference or a comparison to something related but distinct would be inoorder. When it becomes more than that then people are speaking on something which is no longer relevant. The bon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Less my reference to St.

John's West be misinterpreted, I have said to the Minister of Industrial Development through you, Mr. Speaker, I support his call for an early election in St. John's West. I invite him, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

April 7, 1976 Tape 1883 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: Another point of order has been raised. MR. NEARY: Mr. Spea).cer, the hon. member persists on defyin!!: Your Honour's ruling. Any reference to the by-election in St. John's West, if I interpret the ruling of Your Honour correctly, is out of order, and the hon. member persists in referring to the by-election in St. John's West. I would submit to Your Honour that youask the hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir to restrain himself or name him, Your Honour. HR.

SPEAKER: My ruling there is the same as the ruling I gave a few minutes ago, and that is a comparison, a reference for purposes of comparison to something distinct but related, and this is another by-election in another district, a comparison for point of reference to something distinct but related would not, in my opinion, be out of order. But to develop remarks at any length on that would be out of order as being irrelevant to the petition. It is the same ruling as I gave a couple of minutes ago. The hen. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR . SIMMONS: Thank you. Mr.

Speaker, I do not know what all of the fuss is about. I want to briefly support this petition. I could have long since liave finished had I not been interrupted on specious,false points of order. I shall depend on Mr. Speaker's as usual to bring me to order if I defy his rulings, as I am sure he will. I do not know why the member for LaPoile insists on wasting the time of the House. Let me;: repeat - MR. NEARY: So this is in order, Mr. Speaker? MR. SIMMONS: Let me repeat, Mr. Speaker, as I was saying a moment ago before I was interrupted; lest I be misunderstood about my reference to St.

John's West, let me say just in passing, 'in comparison, let me say that I support the member's call for an early election in St. John's West, the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) his call for that by-election. }'y disappointment is that he did not support our call on this side for an early by-election in EXploits. Steve Mulrooney 1 the member for a brief period demonstrated to the people what an effective can do for them, and that is why we have this appeal 5:057

April 7, 1976 Tape 1883 PK - 3 Mr . Simmons : today, Mr. Speaker. MR . WELLS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. WELLS : On a poin t of order , Mr. Speaker. A point of order has been raise d. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is going surely, Mr . Speaker , beyond t he bounds of what is accepted , s tand ard in this Rouse in support of a pet ition . The p~tition i s t hat a by-elect ion should be called in Exploits . That i s fine.

Any remark s in suppor t of that , but to start campaigning for a candidate .whoever it might be,becausu that is what thls sounds like to me , sur ely goes beyond the bounds of supporting the pe t ition . HR. S !Mli.ONS : To the point of order, ~~ . Speaker. Row, how - t will not say it , Mr. Speaker,it is not parliamentary . But how nonsensical can you get. I referred to a gentleman who served in thi s Uouse , a former member of this House of Assembly , He is the last sitting and the only member who ever s at for the dist rict of Exploits . MR. ROBERTS: MR . SIMMONS: Hear, hear . Anc I referred 5.058.

April 7, 1976 Tape 1884 IB-1 ~'R . SU1MONS: to him in a gentlemanly reference to a gentleman, an~ I resent ~eeply the illlplication from the ~ < :!nister without Portfolio, the part-time Covern!ll.ent House Lea~er, to the effect that we are campaigning. I have paid tri.bute to a gentleman who deserves tribute, who represented thP. district of Exploits very well. Sm<E HON , ~ffi1'RF.l:>S: Hear, hear! }W . NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. ~'Tl. SPEAKEJl: The hen. member for LaPoile,and then I ~.rill hear the hen. minister. l"l? . NEAPY: :Mr.

Speaker, I am inclined to agree t••ith the government House Leader that the hon. member for Rurgeo-Bay d'Espoir (~lr. S:lll'I!Ions), Sir, was entering into the realm of debate which is, as Your Honour knows, forbidden under the rules of this h~:m. Rouse. Again I have to ask Your Honour to try and persuade the member for Burgeo-Bay r1 'Espoir (~'T". Simmons), wnn does not see!'! to understand the rules of the 'Rouse, to restrain himself and to stick to the prayer of the petition.

If the hon. member persists in breaking the ruJes of the Rouse, that Your Honour does not have any choice but to name the hon. member and have him rel!loved from the Fouse for a day or t>IO. 1'1'. SPEAKER : The hon. 1'inis ter of Indus td al and "!'ural Development, '~ - LUNDRICAN: ~o that point of order. I think that an abuse of any rule in the House :Is just as bad as breaking the rttle. This is something that I have tried to suggest in a number of ways over a per:! od of the J ast nut!'ber of ••eeks ,and I do not ••ant to presume that I know the n1les. The hen.

Leader of the Opposition jf he were on this side of the Fou s e '.J'Hh his l<ncn.rlee!ge of the rules 'vould have the hon , member for Burpeo-Ra .y cl 'fspoir in ris seat ninety per cent of the til'1e, because the hen. !'\ember persists in ra:l.sing points of order, casting little aspers'!.ons. I have never seen him quite in order since I have been here and yet - !!11. SPEAK.El': Order, please! Orcl.er, please! ~05 . 9

April 7, 1976 Tape 1884 IB-2 }'R • SEEAKER: As I ruled earlier today with reference to another hon. m.mber, '~en a person speaks to a point of order it must be quite specifically to the point of order before the Chair, and that is whether the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir remarks were in order. :'IF. Lt'NDRI(;AN : The point that I am trying to Eake is the hon. member got up.for example,and cast remarks about my bon. colleague, about his representation and how the district has not missed him since he has been away.

I do not know if his remarks were either misleading the Rouse, or if they 1•ere born out of ignorance or lack of understanding. But the point that I am trying t~ make, Your Honour is this,that if the Chair permits me as a member, the bon. member as a member, the h~n. member for Trinity-B11y de Verde (Mr. F.

Rowe) as a member,to persist in breaking the rules of the House,or misusing the rules of the House,or attemptin~ because of the fact that there is a rule :In Beauchesne which says that one 1!18.Y rise on a anestion to a point of order or a question of privilege, to air a grievance, or to have the ruJe loosely applied, then I . contend, Your Honour, that the decorum in the House and the general good will and the good debate and practice and procedure will deteriorate.

I feel that that in fact is what is happening. !he hon. memher usually when he raises his point of order usually scores a point or two and he deliberately does it and I feel that th:ls is the k:l.nd of thing that causes aggravation.

I feel, Your Honour, that if there is a persistency in breaking rules, if one rises on a question of privilege or a point of order and it is consistently presumed and observed by Your Honour that that is not a point of order or a question of privilege, then the collective disorder of the member should be dealt with forthw:l ,th by Your Honour. }Ill • SPEAKER : The point of order which was brought up I think essentially boils down to whether the bon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir in his references to the former member was in order or not. I think that is 5D&Q ·

A~ril 7, 107~, Tape 18~4, Par.e 3-- TB 1"R. S?F.AKER: essentially it. Were the hon. member to make a sneech on the sub1ect matter of the ~tentleman who t~as fonerlv a member here would be irrelevant, would not he speaking on the ~~terial al.lej%ation of the petition which is that a by-election be helrl ;u; soon oossible. Ap.ain it is similar, it is a question of emphasis. If it is passing reference, certainly there is some relationship hetween the ~entleman ·~ho was formerly in this session as a member an.rl the fact that there is no~; a by-election.

Again is it is a passing reference to make a comnarison or to ma!•e a specific point, then I do not think one would say it is out of ord.er . Rut i.f it is to be the suh.1ect of a spE-ech, then it would not refer to the material allegation of the netition which is the request that a hy-election he held as soon as possible. The hon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d ' Esooir . 'fR. SN!ONS: Thank vou ver y much, ~ r. Sneaker, for that ruling . !Uthout attemnting to anticipate, it is fullv the rulinr.

T expected because I had .1ust hegun, anrl indeed had not finished the sentence so one could scarcely submit T had made a speech. t 1u11t wanted to say that I understand the allegations in the petition , vr. Speaker - ~. WARY: .!r . Speaker, on a point of order. 'tR. SPEAICER: Order, please! A point of order . >IlL m-'.ARY: 'fr . Speaker, do I understand the hon. member for 8urAeo-Bay d ' F.spoir is questionin~ Your Honour's rulinR? :-!R. S?F.AKF.R: On that point of order, it is not mv understanding that he is ouestioning it, no . HR . m!TTP: No , sit down.

April 7, 1976, Tape 1885, Page 1 -- apb '-!R. SPEA.I{F.R: On the specific point of order ~aised by the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) , the hon. the member for llurgeo-Jlay cl' Espoir has not questioned it, has not disputed it. 11R. NF.ARY : Hr. Speaker, do I have an opportunity to mal<-e my case? MR. ST'F.AKF.R: Yes, if it is related to the point of order, of course. XIR. SIMMONS: }fr. Speaker, I do not intend to yield unless he has his point of order. "'R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am speaking on a point of order. HR. SPF.AKER: I presume the hon. gentleman is speaking on a point of order. '<R.

NFARY: My understanding, Sir, of what the hon. gentleman said was that he looked at Your Honour and said, "'1r. Speaker, I did not make a speech.'' Now Your Honour had i ust made a ruliniJ; s11yinr. that it WRS not ri,:;ht and flroper for the hon. ~ember to make n speech in connection with the petition. And It ••ou 1 d apnear to me>, Sir, and perhaps Your Ponour may want to check the tanes, that l<hat the member was doing indirectly '"as challenginr>: Your Honour's ruling. And there is a proper flrocedure in t~is hon. House - '!R. SI~IONS: Do not be so foolish 'Steve'. HR.

NEARY: - for challen~ing Your Honour's ruling,and I ;.rouJd submit, Sir, that that is the recourse open to the hon. gentleman, and not to defy a ruling just made by Mr. Speaker. SOME HON . MEMJlERS : Hear, hear! 'fR • SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the 0pposition. 'ffi. RORF.RTS: .Tust a word briefly to that so-called point of order, which in my submission has no merit and suhstancf". I do not mind ridiculous points of order because they are raised by members, but absurd noints of order, Sir, surely are eone beyond the bounds. The gentlenan from Burgeo (Hr.

Simmons) was carryinp; on ldth his five minutes which have now stretched to about 5062

April 7, 1976, Tape 1885, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS : twenty-three, counting all the points of order and so forth and so on that have gone on. Your Honour clearly said when the gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) began - clearly said - that in Your Honour's opinion the gentleman from Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) was not challenging Your Honour's ruling, nor was he, obviously. Despite this the gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) persisted in carrying on in, as I see it, making what I regard as an absurd point of order as opposed to the merely ridiculous,which is more common· for members of the House. MR.

SPEAKER: The specific point of order raised was that the hon. the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) was out of order because he had challenged the Chair's ruling. I have listened to both han. gentlemen who have spoken to the point of order and have considered my own judgement naturally, and it is certainly not my opinion that the hon. gentleman had challenged the Chair's ruling. What the ruling was,was that the hon. gentleman should not make a speech with reference to -not that he had,but that he should not - that if he were to make a speech on a certain subject he would be out of order.

If he were to make a passing reference or a comparison,he would be in order. I asked him to judge his remarks or to make his remarks accordingly. Then the hon. gentleman said that he had not or did not intend to, or something to the effect,that he had not or did not intend to make a speech.on the matter on which he was directed not to make a speech. In my opinion he in no way challenged the Chair's ruling. SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Burgee-Bay D'Espoir. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It remains for me only then to state once again my complete support for the prayer of the petition from the thousand or so residents of the district of Exploits. They have had good representation in the past, They deserve to have it on a continuing basis. The Premier of this 5Q'63

~oril 7, 197~ . Ta~e lR85, Pap.e 3 -- apb '·fR . St'P.tClNS: Province and his colleague can facilitate that , cnn do Jt q-.rlckly by calling the hy-el<>ction without :my further delay . Hr . Speaker, that is the issue, that is the prayer of the petition, that is the only issue . Lf we have made that point this aftern oon all of t he interrup tions will hnve been worthwhile . Thank you very much. SO 'IE liON. !.IF.MIIF.~S : Rcnr, hear! ~m . SPE~~ER: The hon . the member for ~askaupi, then the ~on . the member for Windsor-Bucha ns. MR. GOUDIE: --- -- Hr . Soeaker , I beg lea ve to pr esen t a oetition .

Actunlly, in one sense,! suppose, this is a supplement to a netition which I present earlier in the f~use, about threP WC<' ks :1r,0 • tn:i~cated at thAt time that there were oth<'r nnmes to be suhmitte~ . Because of mail problems in Coastal Labrador the nal!les had not arrived when the original petition was brought in . The Power Consumers' Committee of P.aogv Volley-Goose llav extends this Drayer: "Althourh Lab<ador is n [lart of the Province of Newfoundl and and Labr ador , t he people feel that they are trented very unfairly and to a ~reat extent arP nenalized in t;at th~y have ~0 6 4

April 7, 1976 Tape 1886 PK - 1 Hr. Goudie: to pay exceptionally high electrical rates with very poor service. The residents sign below strongly protest these high rates and poor service and request that the government remedy this unfair situation." The nai:les on the petition total 623, :t>lr. Speaker. They come from Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Hud Lake, Hopedale, English Point, Forteau, Cartwright, West St. Hodeste, Pinware, and Capstan Island. I wish to table this petition, Mr. Speaker, and have it referred to the particular department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River . MR. I.

STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, in rising to support this petition. which was collected from all over labrador by the Consumers• Committee of Happy Valley,I would like to point out some disparities which we on the coast feel acutely concerning the supply of electrical power, especially in the light and in view of the fact that there are great hydro developments being carried out in Labrador and we on the coast can look across at Gull.

Island and at the Upper Churchill Falls, and then we turn around and find out that on the coast we have communities without electricity in this day and age, communities without electricity, when on the one hand we talk about Churchill Falls, we talk of the Gull Island power, we boast, we hear t! about it in the newspapers, we hear about it on the radio, and yet on the coast there are communities without electricity, and the communities who have electricity pay the highest rates in this Province, because we are supplied by diesel generators.

Furthermore we not only pay the highest rates in this Province but we also pay more, the more we use the electricity. In other words,our rates escalate as we use electricity they do not fall as elsewhere. Now in speaking to this petition I ask,how you can rationalize these two extremes? There is regional disp~rity within Canada, we realize that, but there is also severe regional disparity within this Province. Homes on the coast pay $78, $80, $90, $100, $110 a month for electricity, .5065

April 7, 1976 Tape 1886 PK - 2 t1r. Strachan: and remember we live in a part of the Province which has Arctic conditions, and therefore we use far more electricity there than in the Southern part of this Province. Any further increases will cripple the coastal p~ople,many of whom do not exist totally within a dash economy, and therefore do not have the money to pay their bills. I call on the government to take steps to equalize the electricity rates across this Province so that we can all be treated the same,and hold the rates down before real severe hardship makes the people suffer more. sm1E !!ON .

MEMBKRS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The ~on. Minister of Hines and Energy. MR. CROS BI£ : Mr. Speaker, the House of course is very familiar with this problem and this complaint, and as I have explained before in the House the government are doing everything that is humanly possible to help in the situation. But this government and every government, r1r. Speaker, are faced with the facts that have been repeated over and over in this House, in this session, and which are still valid today. The hon. ger.tleman from Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan) talks about people along the coast of Labrador, and the rates they have to pay for power. They do not have hycJro power available to them because.as he knows,it is simply not economic to develop ~ydro to bring to small communities as there are along the Coast of Labrador, the same as it is not economic to bring hydro power to small communities scattered along the c;:,ast of certain parts of Newfoundland.

The communities that stretch along the coast of Labrador are not treated any differently than =he communities scattered along the coast of Newfoundland who are on the rural electrical system or that are in the are.as of diesel power has to be provided. The rates they are charged is exactly the same rates as are charged in other communities in Newfoundland who are on the rural system, who have to be supplied power through diesel generators, through the use of oil. And their rates are exactly the same as those rates. The first 500 kilowatts ~066

April 7, 1976 Tape 1886 PK - 3 Mr. Crosbie: per month, kilowatt hours used per month is the same rate as hydro, and then above that the rates increased because it is just not possible for this or any government to finance the extension that would be required if the rates were lower • .. 50.6-7

April 7, 1976 Tape no. 1887 Page 1 · mw Hr. Crosbie. Y:r. Speaker, in this year's estimates we are providing $11,180,000 to subsidize the cost of power in the ~on~unlties mentioned in Goose Bay, along the coast of Labrador, aml in other parts of the Province. In the year 1975-1976 the amount was $9,839,000; 1974-1975 the amount was $7 ,300,000; ir. 1973-1974 the amount was $5,992,000; in 1972-1973 the amount was $4,750,000; in the last year of the Liberal Administration the a.'!lount of the su!lsidy was $4,312,000.

So we are this year asking the llouse to vote alr!wst three times as much for the purpose of subsidizing the rates that pertain in systems that come under the Rural Electrical authority. That is the situation. ~!R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twiliingate. }ffi. S}~LWOOD: Would the minister be kind enough to tell us why - these are e~traordinarily figures admittedly - why? W11at is the explanation? liT'-. CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, the main reason and explanation is the increasing cost of oil. and the increasing cost of wages and salaries and other expenses such as that. MR. SNALLl-.!QOD: }!1< .• CROSBIE: ~ffi.

SHALLWOOD: ~IR. MURPHY: ~· IR. Sl-'.ALLlvOOD: And that accounts completely? Well, you know, these are the main reasons. Well, almost completely? l.fuat about the subsidy change? Wages and oil. Hr. Speaker, I am giving my opinion that the main reasons for this is the cost of oil - ~fR. CROSBIE: ~~ - Sl-IALLWOOO: t-!R. CROSBIE: MR. SMALLWOOD: HR. CROSBIE: I am asking. I am only asking. Right . I am not embarrassing . Right. - js the "ost of oi] and the cost of H1lf'e,; and sal11ries which are t~.ro of the princjpal reasons. So, Vr. Speaker, we ~068

April 7, 1976 Tape no. 1887 · Page 2 -mw Mr. Crosbie. are doing what we can. I have met with the representatives of this group from Goose B~y-Happy Valley who have suggested that the rates be lowered. We are looking at that to see what it would cost, and what its implications are.

But one of the main problems would be if rates were lowered, apart from the increased subsidy, would be the increased demand that would mean heavy expenditures in capital account to provide more diesel generators and more equipment of that nature which we just cannot reach, because in addition to this $11,100,000 on capital account we are spending $5,300,000 this year on the rural system. So we are familiar with the problem. We are sympathetic with the problem. I cannot promise any reduction in the rates. 1-le are having a look at it just to see if there is any possibility at all.

We are doing what we can, and it is a problem that every province and every country faces. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: In rising to support that petition, Mr. Speaker, it is easy to understand the problem that exists in Labrador. We have to realize, of course, the very long and severe frosty Winters. AN HON. MEl'ffiER: Northern Labrador. EAPT. WINSOR: Well,not as cold and long Winters as we have in Northern Labrador and around that area of Goose Bay. But, Mr.

Speaker, it is a great pity when that agreement was signed with Quebec that there was not a clause included in that agreement to provide a transmission line from the Churchill Falls down to Goose Bay which could have provided electricity for Happy Valley- Goose Bay, Mud Lake, Nnrth West River area.

That is the great tragedy, I think, if there is a tragedy, of that agreement between the Province of Newfoundland and Quebec, because I think if that agreement had been there, and transmission lines had been provided, the people of Happy Valley, North West River and that area would be enjoying today comparatively the same rates,of perhaps a little cheaper,than we have in Newfoundland.

Aj>rll 7, l976 Tape no. 1887 !'age 3- mw CAPT. WI~SOR: So, ::r. Speaker, ! think, that is a great tragedy oecause the distance is not ~11 tr~t great, ~~ - Speaker, from Churchill Falls co Goose Bay, and this is the reason, and it is l;01nc to take some ti:ne to correct it especially along the coast . l'lols would not apply :o the coast, because there you have to use t~e diesel po~~r, and that is going to be for a long, long time to cor.~e. Even with t he de•1dopment of the Lower Churchill, the diesel power will lmvc to be used along the coast.

But, Sir , 1 can understand the people of Labrador having served theo in this bon . house for !if tee:t years. And 1 had the problems then as the hon . members are having today , the high cost of electricity , the high cost of living, the high cost of transportation . Everythinr is much high er. And those people deserve a little specia l attention, I think . SO~!E LION . ~!EMBERS: Hear , hear ! ~070

April 7, 1976 Tape 1888 IB-1 "R. SPEAKE!': The hon. ¥inister of Forestry and Agriculture. '11 . ROUSSEAU: r•r. Speaker, I woulrl like to stand and lend my support to my colleague and good friend from Naskaupi. (Mr. Goudie). I certainly know the problem encountered with the question of electricity, As the bon. member fer Fogo (Capt. Vinsor) said. who represented I.abrador for quite a while, it is unfortunate that we do not have power lines from the TTpper Churchill to that area of the Province. However,it is going ahead and hopefully in the near future tha.t problem will be solved.

But in the interil'l and on past experience the cost of electricity has been a great one. These people, many of them, Mr. Speaker, are not rich people. They are people who do not make the same sort of money as people over in my area in Labrador make,and paying these electricity bills are problems for them and a very difficult situation. One would hope that ~•hen the figures come in~as the hon. ¥injster of ~fines and Energy says~and we are able to take a look at it, one would hope that something could be done.

CertainJy I would like to support anything that would lower the costs of these rates, not only in Labrador but anywhere around the Pro,rince,but especially in Labrador because I know the~e have a hard time trying to keep up with the cost of these bills. }'ll. SPEAKER: .The bon. Leader of the Opposition. J.<f' ROBE~TS: l'r. Speaker, there have been a number of members speak on the matters raised by the gentleman from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) in the petition. Perhaps I could say a word or two as well. I have not had an opportun:f.ty to 1 ook at the petition.

There may well be some of my own constituents who have signed it because, of course, Sir, all of the people in the d1strict of the Strai.ts of Belle Isle rely upon diesel generators for their power. And it may very well be that some of the people alone the Labrador side of the - I see the member for Naskaupi (J.!r. Goudie) is nodding. Here there any people from the Straits district? He nods acquiescence. 1-Jell,that is all the more reason why I should say a word or t~vo. 1;-Te do not need to say very much, Sir, because the matter has been ! ~071

fipril 7, 1976 Tape lRRR IB-2 ''T' l'nRE1'1'S: tlwrourhly canvassecl in the House this session. Tnr1eer1 I Hatud imarine there have been T"or.e prdnts lT'~:>.cle on petitions about electr.jcity or electr:lcitv rates th"n there havP- been em aJJ the cleh:1tes on al J the sub_iects in the House this session. The petition procedure has been user., T •·mu~ d surgest, in a most e:z:ell1plarv T";mner ancl h<Js 1:-een t<1l·er, to ne>I hei p>,ts of rel e'r<~nce an(! usefulness in mal·.in(!: the point ;1h0ut tl1ese electricity rate increases. 1'r. Speaker, I support the petition.

I thoup.ht tlte gent]ema!l frat!' Nask<"up:i (1-'"r. r:oucl5e),even T"ore so the f(ent]eman fran' Eagle Tliver (llr. ~trachan), rmc1e extreT"e1y val ic1 points. Pe0ple :In Labrac'or ''ave no option but to use power a.nc:l :inr1eed they must use more of it in many instances th'ln even people 0n the Isl ;mel, who ecrnally have no option, the}' too must use P<"'Fer. Jlut on the Northern Labrar1or Coast :In particulAr, tl1e J onr clays, tl1e harsher Hinters make the consui'lption of -pot(ler even !'lore of an necessi ty,if anytrinr- can be more necessary than aT>ythi .nr Pl SC.

I sympathize vith the ''in1ster of 1'ines anc1 l'nergy, but at the s:-n"c t :hne J thiT>> that t>e !'lust real 1.ze that fraT" the point of view of the people concerned, <;ir, the min1.ster's statement or the TT'inister's exp);mation just ·~:111 not ~msh.

"'he people :In 1.ahrar1or, s;r, part1cuJ<lrJv :f.n the coastfl1 communities,but to a not signif:l.cantly lE>sser extent :in Happy '.'ally-Goose Bay anc1 Northwest P.iver, or :'uc1 L11\:e 5 f one Pishes as ~·ell, the four colnl'\unities there in the Lake "elvj]Je llrea, the people there, Sir, are ~en:iecl in large measure m:m;r of the public services that llr.e av;:~ilable to JT'OSt of the people of tld s Province. >'aybe the" p:et all the services they can. One cannot hn1Jr1 a road to llajn,at )east not in the immerl:fate fnture,,.nd so forth. llnt, ~'r.

Speaker, the fact trnt these people cl'\nnot pet access to rr<~ny of the services which the other citizens of this l'rovincc take fnr grantec1, :if ;myth:fnr; is evi.rlence :In support of the fact they c'rserve T11ore consirleration still on th:ls C]UI'stion of the hyc1ro rates. ry,er<> is n0 dottht :fn MY T"1nrl, 11r. Speaker, "hut that the rates

April 7, 1976 Tape 1888 IB-3 !-'R. ROBEPTS : should be equal bed,. particularly when the inter-tie is completed between the Churchill development to the \-Jest and the Flappy Valley­ Goose Bay area to the East, and it wHl go through to North~rest River I have no doubt, that will take a large load off the diesel generators and put it on the hydro generators. It should be entirely possible, Sir, for the government to provide an equal rate, at least to the first 1,000 or 2,000 kilowatt hours a month.

I am not suggesting, Sir, that the people of Nain or the people of L'Anse-a-Loup or in any community along the Labrador Coast should be entitled to get electric heat at diesel generation rates,but I think they should be allowed, ~ir, enough power to be able to use all of the modern appliances and all of the modern conveniences without being penalized. The fact remains, Sir, the 500 hour kilowatt point,wh:!ch j_s the level at which the rate is now equalized and above that point the diesel rates are infinitely higher and cl:l.mb rapidly

whereas the hydro rates tend to go down, that point, Sir, the 500 kilowatt hour per month point is much too low. It should be at least 1,500 or 2,000 kilowatt hours per month. So I support the petition,~'r. Speaker. I commend it to the ~inister, particularly in the light of the fact that within the very near future the Happy Valley and Goose Bay load will be removed from the diesel generation sector and moved into the hydro sector with power from the Upper Churchill and that, Sir, should enable the p,overnment to equalize the rates. I hope they t•rHl.

I think the people in Coastal Labrador, and equally in the smaller communities of Newfoundland who must still look to diesel generated power, these people, S1~, deserve that fro~ the government of this Province. Sm'E H0N. ~~1-'BEPS: Hear, hear!

April 7, tq76 Tape No. 1889 ~m. SPF.AKEll: The hon. ~!inister of Forestry and Agriculture. ~~. llf'lt!SSF.Al:: This is a question, I am on Standing Order 15 m1- 1 again, a question of privilege. It is not that it is that important, tt is not a personal thing. I realize newspapers may - ~~. ROBERTS' nh, it is not a petition. )!r. P.OllSSEAll: No, no- may have some indication of ho~7 somebody feels, and that does not bother me,by the ~;ray, but there is one little report here in the editorial today of The Evening Telegram that I would just like to set straight, only because, Mr.

Speaker,the question of spraying is involved. And I thought that this government had made its position quite clear on it, and 1 just ~.;ant to clarify it for this record. I could not care less if it is printed in any newsr>aper, just as long as the House has the record straight. And the sup_gestion here is, 't:on we be as ruthless with humans as we were with the wildlife? NeH Brunswick says yes; Nova Scotia says no; Prince Edward Island has no spraying program this year,and ~ewfoundland is saying maybe yes, maybe no.

Spraying has to be suspended until a safe, harmless solvent is found and a safe chemical to use ,.,i th it, safe for ~vildlife as ~•ell as humans." !!r. Speaker, as far as I am concerned I thought I made the position of the government quite clear. In a recent interview on r.Br., I distinctly stated that there would be no spraying program tn this Province untE I was firEly convinced that it was absolutely essential. I said T would take a look at it again.

In an open neHsletter to the Editor of The Dai.ly Nel,•s this rnorn:lng I read , and T would like to read into the record of this House, "You are seriously in error when you suggest this Province is permitting or encouraging the cutting of timber which we do not really need. Our timber salvage program is simply a management technique of placing priority on the cutting of insect, diseased or fire killed or damaged timber before it becomes unmerchantable." This is not privilege. &074

April 7, 1976 Tape No. 1889 MR. ROUSSEAU: I am saying that I would like to clarify a point in an editorial in The Evening Telegram. AN RON. MEMBER: That is out of order, Mr. Speaker . ~. ROUSSEAU: Is it not? MR. SPEAKER: As I understand it, the hon. gentleman rose on a point of privilege in order to - MR. ROUSSEAU: To clarify a point. MR. SPEAKER: - make clarification, presumably somethin2 whereby he thinks he was misunderstood or misquoted or some such .thing. NM- 2 HR. ROUSSEAU: I am attempting to clarify a point that I just read.

"Surely you will agree with me," this letter is by me, "Surely you will agree ~vith me that the use of a chemical insecticide to control infestation should be used only as a last resort." In block letters, "It is the unanimous recommendation of every forest agency in the Province that no chemical control action be undertaken during 1~76 and I support that recommendation. (Witness to the recent situation in New Brunswick).

It is the belief of the officials of this nepartment and officials of the Canadian Forestry Service, and the pulp and paper companies,that we have not reached a critical point where spraying is absolutely essential." Here is my position, Mr. Speaker; quite plainly; if spraying does become essential, and here I might add that I would have to be firmly convinced that such was the case, that we would be prepared to look at it again, and nobody has said that we would and I just want to correct that for the record in case people feel that there is even a question of us spraying in this Province.

There is not at this point in time,and I would just like to straighten that out for the record. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) I believe ~vishes to speak to the petition. MR. CALLAN: No, Mr. Speaker, another petition. MR. SPEAKER: Then I should ask are there any further references to the previous petition?

April 7, 197fi Tape No. 1889 • • • w.- 3 'lr . SPRAKER: I had indicated ~-·hen I recognized the hnn . member for Naskaupi (i'lr. Goudie) that I would be back and recognize the hon . member for Windsor-Bu chans who has been standing on a number of occasions, RO certainly T should r ecor,nize him, and the hon . member for Bellevue (}rr . Callan) will have his opportunity afterwards . The hon . member for lnndsor-Buchans . vp. FLICllt: Hr, Sp e;~ker, I tdsh to present a petition from the tovn of RAdger.

Th~ petition has to do with, so co speak, the opposition 1.n the to\m of Badger to the sys tem of busing their high school children from Badger to Grand F:~lls and T~indsor . "r . Speaker , this pe t ition "'as sponsor ed by the Tovn Council of Badger as a result of representation and solicitations, so to speak,from the people they represent in Badger. The

preamble of the petition, "r. Speaker , is that, "the school pupils of the to~~ of Bad~er are under the jurisdiction of three diffe rent school boards , the Pentecostal Board of Education , the Exploits Val ley Integ rate d School !loard and thf: Exploits - White Bay ~oman f.at holic School noards . All three 5076

April 7, 19 76. MR. FLIGHT: Tape 1890 RH - 1 school boards have indicated that the students from grade seven to grade eleven will continue to be bused to Grand Falls from Badger. These students will be housed in seven different schools and must leave home at 8:00 a.m. in the morning and return approximately at 5:00 p;m. in the evening. Travelling to and from school prevents the children from participating sufficiently in recreational facilities both at home and at school.

Council believes that the physical, emotional anc intellectual well-being of the children will be better served if they attended school in their own community. Given this situation~the town council at Badger ,.,ishes to obtain the opinions of the citizens of Badger about the system of education as it now stands and what they should be. Upon completion of this petition a meeting '~ill he held in the town hall with both school officials, our H.H.A., l"r.

"~'light, members of the various organizations and anyone from the general public who wishes to attend. 1-ihen the House of Assembly re-opens this petition will be presented by Hr. Flight." The basic prayer of the petition, Ur. Speaker, is that busing be discontinued in Badger and that educational facilities required for the students of Badger to finish grade eleven be established and maintained in Badger. "1-'r. Spealwr, in presenting this petition and supporting the prayer of the petition I am also familiar with the concerns and the anxieties that the people who supported this petition share in Badger.

I suspect also that this petition reflects the line of thought with regard to businp; in this Province today. I think it reflects probably a line of thought that a reassessment of our approach to busing of our children is in order right now. Busing may have its merits in certain parts of this Province, Mr. Speaker, but busing·· per se as we have it is being questioned all over Newfoundland as to whether it is in the better interests of our educational programme. The students from Badger in particular, l1r.

Speaker, must travel twenty miles, 186 students, approximately t'venty miles to and from Grand Falls and lvindsor. H'e as a society, Mr. Speaker, question and pretend or say that we are concerned with the moral values, the moral

Aprl.l 7, 1'176. ~·n.. YL IC:ll'T' : Tape lfl90 RH - 2 st:mdarrls of our younr.; people torlny,~mile at the same time He support a situation that allows a child to leave home at eight o 1 elocl: in the morning and spend until five o 1 clock that evening a~·my from home outside of any parents' con.:rol, parents' jurisdiction, outside of any supervision at all apart from the supervision that he has in the classroom. ~r. Speaker, the loss to the town of Badger is the fact that the town over years have worked and have provided recreational facilities.

Now the crime here is not only of the children not partaking and not benefiting from the recreational facilities as providerl by the regional hi~h school that they attend, but they are deprived of the ability of contributing to and benefiting from the facilities that are provided at P..adger. They are makin51 little or no contribution to the town of f\adger. The students that graduate from grade eleven in Grand Palls wi 11 know more ahem:: the town of Grand Palls then they know ahout Badger.

We pretend, you knm~, '"e say that we must find a ''ay to keep our children in ~ieHfoundland, we do not ''ant our children migrating to Toronto. The same thinp: applies to a corrununity, lfr. Speaker. I think if we are to follmv that line of reasoning then certainly our children should,when they have completed grade eleven and are about to fo into university or vocational school,should feel closer to the town that they grew up in than to a town that they were huser1 into to spend eight hours a day, The fact is, M"r. Speaker ', that the students in Badger today are hoarders in their mm homes.

They leave Badger dark and they return at dark. This is not in the hetter interest of their education. It is not in the better interest of the e<luca.tional facilities of the Province. It is not in the better interest of this Province. It is my hope, Hr. Speaker, that this action hy the toHn of Badger, ancl tr.is petition supported by most of the people in B<~dr;er .. will be the spark that vTill bring about a complete reassessment of busing as we know it in this Province today. ~!r.

Speaker, I suspect anrl I am aware that since this petj tion and since this discussion started in Badger that communities from . . ~078

April 7, 1976 . MR • 'Pt. I C:HT : Tape 1890 RFI - 3 all over Newfoundland have been ~n touch with the people who have headed up this petition and offered them support and are prohably waiting for this type of a movement and thi s type of a question to be brought in front of this House . I recognize that the building of schools, the capital gr ants , have to be made through the denominational systems . That is not the issue. I ~1ould say , ~!r . Speake r , tha t the leade r ship and the direction 5.()79

April 7, 1976 Tape 1891 PK - 1 Mr. Flight: that education takes in this Province must come from this House, It is with this thought in mind that I support this petition, and I ask to have it laid upon the table of the House and directed to the department to which it relates. Thank you! SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Education. RON. W. HOUSE: Hr. Speaker, in speaking to the petition, first of all I must point out that, of course, the most we can do with this is to have the case aired,the concerns of the people.

This petition I knew about beforehand, and I discussed it with some of the people. It was sponsored by the people from Badger, and under the sponsorship of the Council. Their two main concerns, of course, have been very well expressed by the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight). The two main concerns, of course, one of the things is the fact that pupils leaving the community are having difficulty, they are leaving early, getting back late, and they still cannot take the full advantage of the educational opportunities to where they are going.

The second one, of course, is the fact ·that it inhibits somewhat the town growth, because a lot of people move out of Badger because their children have tc be bused to school,who would otherwise,of course, work in Grand Falls possibly and live in Badger~if the school facilities were there. Now the other thing about the coromunity 1 as was mentioned 1 there are three boards opera~ing schools there, and they almost have equal numbers of pupils. They operate three elementary schools from kindergarten to Grade VI. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the reason I did not say specifically I am rising to support the petition is because there is rto machinery- and I say this now as I am speaking to the petition, and there are certain aspects of it I can support. The Federation of School Boards last year made representation through a questionnaire stating of course that they thought that busing had gone a little bit too far because of the very reasons pointed out, but there were a lot of advantages ~080

April 7, 1976 Tape 1891 PK - 2 Mr. House: of course to the high school pupils being bused to better facilities. Certainly they were getting better academic programmes, but I believe one of the things they stated was the fact that perhaps we should cut out as much as possible the busing of elementary pupils. Mr. Speaker, I just said there is no machinery for setting up a school,for the government or anybody else,except the recognized authorities,to set up a public school in the Province.

Ron. members are aware that the BNA Act gives the churches the right and the responsibility for the ownership and the operating of schools. MR. ROBERT~: Did the minister say there is no way to set up a school except through the churches' ownership 'in this Province? MR. HOUSE: Funds are allocated to school boards for building of schools, as we have - MR. ROBERTS: There is a

section in the Education Act, and I know of at least one school . that is set up- MR. HOUSE: Yes, well that is under - MR. ROBERTS: -in Bide Arm,of living fame. MR. HOUSE: Yes. The hon. member is referring to Bide Arm where there is a religious denomination there that do not come under the BNA Act. That is a school operated from the department. MR. ROBERTS: Right! It is probably MR. HOUSE: It is operated from the department. MR. ROBERTS: - the only one in the Province. MR. HOUSE: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: But it is in the Act, it apparently has been in the act since the year one. MR.

HOUSE.: This is not done for existing denominations. }ffi. ROBERTS: No. MR. HOUSE: Right. So that is why I say the machinery for existing denominations. Of course these churches appoint and elect school boards, and always these school boards are subservtan~ to the churches. Consequently there is very little we can do under the present structures, Our . 5()81

April 7, 1976 Tape 1891 PK - 3 ~lr. Rouse: role as a depart~ent , of course, is to provide curriculum standards and to operate under the existing situation. Now this problem , Mr . Speaker , is something that is , as the hon. member just centioned when he pTesented the petition, of concern t o a lot of communities in Newfoundland, not so much the bigger communities or certain sections of the Province where they were settled decominationally . But like a community such as Badger with l ,iOO or 1,200 people,it is a prob l em there . . 5082

April 7, 1976 Tape no. 1892 Page 1 -mw Mr. House. We have a number of denominations operating schools and not enough of either one of them to operate a viable service. There is, however, a move in several communities to overcome this, and they have been operating school services through a joint service whereby two or more boards will operate a school when they determine that it is to their advantage. And one of the existing boards then would take over the responsibility for operating it. It would be a joint service.

But this initiative is going to have to come from the community .to the churches and to the Denominational Educational Committee. And I can give a ammber of cases of these: Fogo Island is one case in point where they have a joint service; Hawkes Bay1 Port Saunders is another one 1 Sops Arm is another one, Port aux Basques is another one- just to name a few. These are very viable operations, but the initiative came from the churches and the people. I do not know of any joint service where all the denominations have come together to operate a school.

I know in Port aux Basques all the denominations go to a school, but it is done under two school boards. So this is the move that I would suggest that these people take to their respective denominations under the joint service, which is the only structure we have. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that the Department of Education does support these joint servicee because of the obvious recognized advantages, and it still remains within the character of the present system. That is, of course, the churches will still have their input, and they will jointly operate the school. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of this petition, although I am not sure there is anything that I can add particularly to what has already been said • I just want to say that the whole idea of busing is certainly something that the Department of Education has to take a good hard look at. The buses, of course, were set up,

April 7, 1976 Tape no. 1892 Page 2 - mw Mr. Lush. I think, to bring students basically from smaller areas to larger centres whereby they could be exposed to a better education, a better quality education, but I think the factors or the problems associated with busing, as outlined by the minister and by my han. colleague from Buchans - Windsor (Mr. Flight) in presenting the petition, I think these factors or these problems, the social, emotional and physical problems,impede,really,students from getting a quality education, and there are ~ny problems associated with it.

Many times the students from the ~maller centre find it very difficult to assimilate with the students in the larger centre, and the minister already pointed out the difficulty of taking advantage of the entire programme offered by the school. Many of the good things that go on in schools are quite outside the academic arena, and many of the students who are bused in cannot take advantage of this, and consequently do not feel a part of the school. So I support this petition, Sir.

It represents the feelings and wishes of the people of the particular community, and I sincerely wish that the government will see fit to remedy the situation in some way or another. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the -- hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir, I would wish at the earliest opportunity - and this is the earliest opportunity I have had to consult the authorities to correct a ruling I made earlier.

The authority is Beauchesne, page 59: "A point of order cannot be raised on a point of order." So when a point of order is before the Chair, an hon. member cannot , and indeed the Chair should not, entertain a second point of order. It is, therefore, up to the Speaker or whoever is in the Chair to, if you wish, maint~in order during submissions when a point of order is before the floor. But it is quite clear that a second point of order cannot be raised while a point of order is being discussed, fresumably, it would then come up when the previous point has been disposed of.

April 7, 1976, Tape 1893, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: The hon, the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to support the petition so well and ably presented by my friend and colleague from Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight), The prayer of the petition we have heard, of course, and it relates to a very pressing problem as it affects the people 6f Badger, the students of Badger, and in particular the four hundred or so residents of Badger who signed the petition.

I remember my first visit to schools in Badger in, I believe, June of 1961, and at that time they were involved in high school grades. Indeed I was there in connection with the administration of the public exams. Since then the grouping of grades has been changed somewhat,so that Grades VII to IX for all three groups operating schools in the community, the grouping has been changed so that the Grade VII to XI, I understand about 18~ or 187 students,are being bused daily to various schools in the Grand Falls - Windsor and Botwood Highway areas of Central Newfoundland. Mr.

Speaker, the overriding issue here is who makes the decision as to what school a student attends. As it presently exists now it is not the government, of course, it is not the Rouse of Assembly, and it is not the people 6f the community concerned, At the moment it is the school board which makes that particular decision,and that brings us to where we are today where we have this situation occurring in the Badger­ Grand Falls area. I raise that point though, Mr.

Speaker, not in defence of it or to contradict its validity, but just to draw attention to what other members have stated,including the minister in speaking, that the issue we are dealing with here is one that is very largely in the hands of school board officials, school board authorities, and as some will know, I,like the Minister of Education and others in this Rouse,worked at the school board level

Anril 8, 1976, Tape 1893, Page 2 -- apb MR. Sitt'IONS : for a number of years and we wrestled with this kind of a problem many, many times. I think we would be less than honest with the gentle~~n,whom I am pleased to see in the gallery today front Badr;er,and less than honest with the people of Badger if we gave the impression that this petition,having been presented here,was going to undo what for the people of Badger is obviously not a very savoury situation. It is a matter that rests in the hands of school boards, in the hands of school board authorities. Having said "that, f"'r.

Sneaker, I would like to make two uoints and hope that school boards hear me. They are points that T made while I worked with a school hoard. I believed them then and I believe them now. I believe the overriding issue when it comes to a decision to bus students or to put them in one school or another should not be the matter of cost,primarily, or efficiency or economy; it ought to be the question of educational onportunity. Now,Nr.

Sneaker, were we dealin?: here with one school board - and T think this is the crux of the petition,really - were we dealing with one school hoard I think that board would be very, very ill-advised indeed to be busing 186 students a distance of twenty or so miles. Because that constitutes a fairly - bv our standards - a fair sized high school with a staff of seven or eight or nine or ten teachers in this day and age. I think it should be pointed out that the bind here is that there are three separate school hoards involved.

And short of legislation amending that situation, 1~hich I am not su!!:gesting at all, I am sayinp, - perhaps not heinp, very popular in sayinR it - but I am saying as honestly as I can, }1r. Speaker, that I believe this issue, while it is one that we can give our moral sunnort to, is an issue that has to he resolved a~ong the three school boards. Only if vau got co-operation arnonr: those hoards are you going to p,et a solution to this nroblem. I believe firmly, Mr.

Speaker, having said what T have just said ab~ut where the responsibility lies, I ht?lieve firmly that the educational opportunity of these 181' 508-6

_·!J._ , • April 8, 1Q7~, Tape 1~~3, Page 3 -- apb l1R. SDNO S: students would be served a lot better if they w~re tn fladp. r rather than heinp. bused as they are bused, as described by my colleague from l<'indsor-Buchans ( lr . Flight) . They would be a lot betteT off in terms of educational op11ortunity. In closinp, , 'Mr . Speaker, I would like to reiterate the point made by my fr~end and colleaRue from Terra Nova ( r. tush),that it is time that the school 5087

April 7 ,1!)76, Tape 1894, Page 1 -- apb MR. SII1W"l'<S: hoar·ds and the Department too, together re-thought the whole school busing proposition. I believe too often school busing has been used as a false economy. Boards attemoting to balance budgets have often looked to the area of school busing as a way of doing things. I say 1 false economy'hecause if you follow the finances all the way through you will find that busine has not been cheap or inexpensive, hut in point of fact, and the experience shows, that busing has become itself antl albatross insofar as school board financin~ is concerned .

Two points in concluding, Mr. Speaker; in terms of the educational opportunity of these students, it is my opinion they would be well served to he accommodated in the town of Badger. In terms of achieving that, I would be less than honest if I did not reiterate again publicly that there is only one way it can be done under existing law, and that is to seek the active co-operation and collaboration of the three school boards involved. Thank you. HR . SPEAXFR: I shall recognize the hon. minister,then the Leader of the Opposition. MR , ROBERTS: Oh, sure! MR. MURPHY: ~r.

Speaker, iust a few short words from me on this particular ~tter because I am very much interested in what is happening with the husing system Renerallv in the schools. I was in the Fouse when this great step forward was made by the government of that day to enable at that time students in smaller areas to perhaps get up to Grade XI where a Rreat number were only reaching Grade VII or VIII. It was a great concept at the time, and I had my own reservations because of the fact of some of the fears expressed now.

Because a great part of my feeling of education was not only the book learning that they were getting hut the other extra curricular activities that were taking place, Sir, such as athletics and this type of thing. In my own district of St. John's Centre nerhaps 1 have one if not two of the largest - at least one of the largest hiRh schools, Holy Heart of Mary , ~088

April 8, 1971>, Tape 1894. T'age 3 -- apb 'fll . HURP J1Y : million to $12 million on husin~ today which i~ ~ ~ enormous sum of monev that adds to the cost of education without even teaching the kid his ABCDF.FG, that we were not talking about ten, twelve, fifteen years a~o possibly. It is a very emotional matter I think,and it is somethin~ perhans in view of all the representation that has come to us, perhaps tle liS a government, ·anc!

I say this and r am not a member or a nart of the Department of Education,but we should have a long hard took at it and to~ether with all the members of the f!ouse decide,can we p,et back safely to where we were without sacrificing the educational standards that our young people need to groom to go further on, not only up to Grade V1I, TY, X or XI, hut perhaps on to university . Jf that is possible J do not see whv we cannot perhaps have a hard look at what is happening with buses. Are we really going overheard with busing? Perhaps that is tne question we are all talkin~ about today.

I thin¥. everybody - it is not an Opnosition matter, 1 do not think, to raise -1 think everybody h.Rs the same m:oblem and I think if we have, and J say this and I am amazed, tJe have 225,01)0 children in this Province under the age of ei$thteen th11t :1re actually receiving the bahy bonus or the family allowance today. That is an a1~ful lot of 5.090'

April 7, 1976 Tape 1895 •m. ~ruRPRY: people we are talking about, not 50 per cent but perhaps 40 per cent of the population of this Province are today under the age of eighteen and in many cases - perhaps up to Grade YI, perhaps eighteen is a little high - but I woul~ say the great majority IB-1 are still into school, either from kindergarten right up to Grade XI.

So it is a very important question and I would like -it is very difficult to say I support the thing because I, you know, I cannot say that we should quit the busing in Badger,but I am very much in sympathy 't:ith what is happening with busing generally today in all parts of the Province. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: ~'r. Speaker, every now and then I despair about the petition process and think perhaps we should adopt the Ottawa rule that only the member ~•ho presents the petition may speak in its support.

But my thoughts alonr those lines are usually very short-lived,because then ye get a process such as we have just seen on this petition now, the one presented by the gentleman from v1indsor-Buchans n•r. Flight), my friend and my colleague,who seems to have left the Rouse now that he started the process going. I would like to speak in support of the petition. I do not need to add to What has been said,and I do not speak as a professional educator. For once I am probably on much the same wicket as my friend from St. John's Center (Yr. ~furphy).

In my own district,which is very spread out and I suppose is as diffuse as any district in the Province - there are fifty-four separate communities in the Strait of Belle Isle district - some of the children are required to travel distances that may not seem long when measured in miles but given the condition of the road, are very, very long. Out of this discussion today I would hope, ~r. Speaker - and I think this is the sort of discussion which justifies the petition

April 7, 1976 Tape 1895 IB-2 procec'lure and indeecl perh,'lpR it sP.ould be usec1 even more often in the Rouse aJthou~h hopefully not on Private Yembers n~y. It is five o 1 clock and ~re have not yet begun the Question PeriNI. I hope my friend from Eagle ~iver (¥.r. Strachan) will at least get to finish his speech toclay, an excellent speech as it is. But, ~·r. Speaker, there are two points that will come out of this today. I think the first is the very legitimate and very real need of the people froM Baclger ~rho are concerne -d about the conditions under ~mich their chilclren receive their education.

I think that is very relevant and very much to be heedeil and very much to be looked into. 1\ut equally out of that, ~·r. Speaker, I submit there is the much larger concern, i'>.nd I be]:l.eve l'lY colleague from Terra Nova (Hr. Lush) first raisec'l it .,and my colleague from Burgeo-Bay D 'Espoir (¥.r. ~:!mmons) secondecl H ,and the p,entle!'lan from St. John's Center (J.'r. Ynrphy) has addecl his voice in the non-expert sense,,.ffiich is the wrty T adcl mine.

I think the time has come, Sir, when the l"inister of Eclucation, who :! s not responsible for running the schools in this Province but is responsible for the government's activities in the field of ec'lucation, the ' 1inister of Ecluc<~. tion should initil'lte a very thorour;h review of this vhole question of busing to schools. It was a great step fonmrd :In the mir1.•1950 1 s when it heean. T beLieve the Queen l'li :>:aheth Hi.zh School at Foxtrap ~'as the first school in Net·~foundland to '"h:ich ch:llflren t•rere brought ref!nlarly by bus. That was :in the mic1-1950 1s. ~'R.

Sl}1}!0NS: }' T' • P(lBRPTS: 1<154. 1954 my frieni' frol'l J\urgeo-T\ay n 'llspotr (~·r. Simmons) tel] .<l !"e, twenty odrl years ar,o nm~ . It ~ras a great step fonvarrl nnd T think it cert11jnly l•'as for the hetter, the who]e concept of husing. Pout '~" have ef ther r;one too far or our