Manitoba Hansard — 18 May 1978 (Sitting 45A, 31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-45a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 18, 1978 Time: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell): Before we proceed, I should like to draw the honourable members ' attention to the gallery where we have 52 students of Grades 9 to 11 standing from the Sprague Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Norman. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Emerson. We also have 60 students of Grades 4 and 5 standing from Robertson School under the direction of Mrs . Schroeder .

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Inkster . We also have 18 students from the Neepawa Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Hollier. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Gladstone. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here today . Present ing Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. DOUG GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker , I beg to present the First Report of the Committee on Private Bills . MR.

CLERK: The Standing Committee on Private Bills met on Thursday, May 18, 1978, for organization and appointed Mr. Gourlay as Chairman. Your Committee agreed that the quorum for all future meetings of the Committee would consist of six members. Your Committee recommends that the time for receiving Petitions for Private Bills by the House be extended to the 15th day of June , 1978, and that the time for the introduction of Private Bills in the House be extended to the 22nd day of June , 1978. All of which is respectfully submitted . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. GOURLAY: Mr.

Speaker , I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin , that the report of the Committee be received . MOTION presented and carried . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River . MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, arising from the report of the Standing Committee on Public Bills just presented , I would like to beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin, that the time for receiving petitions for Private Bills by the House be extended to the 15th day of June , 1978, and that the time for the introduction of Private Bills in the House be extended to the 22nd day of June , 1978.

MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills. Before we get to the Question Period I think I should make a statement to the House . Due to technical difficulties we are having some trouble with the printing of our Hansards . We hope that those problems will be solved very shortly and Hansards for this week will be on your desk as soon as possible . MATTER OF PRIVILEGE (May 17, 1978) MR.

SPEAKER: Yesterday a Matter of Privilege was raised by the Member for Lac du Bonnet at which time the Minister of Agriculture was not in his seat. I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture 2361

Thursday, May 18, 1978 has any information to impart to me on this subject matter. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I certainly am going to deal with it but wonder if I could wait until the Member for Lac du Bonnet is in his seat so that I could explain directly to him some of the things that he had said yesterday when I was not in my seat . I would like to give him the courtesy of hearing it first-hand in the House, and will ask you to give me an opportunity to deal with it when the member is in his seat. MR. SPEAKER: Very well, I'll hold this matter in abeyance to a future date . ORAL QUESTIONS MR.

SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address a question to the Minister without Portfolio responsible for Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. Could the Honourable Minister advise the House whether it is the intention of Man itoba Housing to proceed with construction of Phase II of the Midlands Public Housing Development this year 1978. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for Housing. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, the Midlands Housing Development is under discussion by the department and has been under discussion by MHRC for several years that that program has been going on and it hasn't been dropped. We have had presentations from groups within the area as to what they would like to see there and we're in discussion with them and there will be housing on that property, but the decision of how many units , etc. is being discussed with the people down there and my department. MR. EVANS: Is the honourable member advising us that there will be no construction taking place this summer in that particular project. MR.

JOHNSTON: No. MR. EVANS: I'm not sure what that answer is, whether it is no there will be no construction . -(Interjection) - Two noes make a positive. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the member said his question was : Is the honourable member advising him there will be no construction this year? No , I am not advising him there will be no construction this year . MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address another question to the Minister then .

In the event that construction may not proceed or does not proceed this year, would the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation be prepared to allow senior citizens living in that area the access to the vacant land so that they may have various garden plots to raise vegetables for themselves? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , I would have to have that considered . I would not like to see senior citizens go out and plant gardens and then have somebody tear them all up. I would have to check to see when construction would be starting, if it is starti ng , and let the honourable member know .

By all means, I would like to see the senior citizens enjoy it if they can. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My ques tion is to the Minister of Finance . Can the Minister confirm that the government of Manitoba originally asked the Federa l Finance Minister, Chretien , to allow the Government of Manitoba to use its one point share of the three point sales· tax reduction for about $20 million worth of direct job creation instead of the complete tax reduction? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr.

Speaker, in reply to the Member for Transcona 's question, that was one of the options that we initially discussed with the Minister of Finance . MR. PARASIUK: A supplementary. Since the Conservative government has takeh the position with the Federal Government that direct job creation would help stimulate the economy , at least as much as tax cuts . will the Minister lift the freeze on home care staff hirings , nursing home construction 2362

Thursday, May 18, 1978 and on senior citizens' construction and allow also the acceleration of city public works which the province cost-shares in? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the member 's second question, there have been a number of moves made by the Provincial Government in direct job stimulation most of which have been announced . It's the opinion of the government that the programs are working satisfactorily and also that the program with regard to the sales tax reduction it would appear at this point in time to be working satisfactorily as well.

If there are any other policies to be announced, they will be announced in due course. MR. PARASIUK: A final supplementary. In the light of the fact that the Minister was originally pushing for a $20 million direct job creation and the programs that he has announced for direct job creation don 't amount to more than $4 million, would the Minister reconsider his position so that he would stimulate the economy by another $15 million or so, through direct job creation by accelerating public works which are necessary to the people of Manitoba? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, if the Member for Transcona can suggest where we can achieve another $20 million or $30 million of cash to put into this sort of program , I'll be quite prepared to listen to him. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface . MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Honourable Minister of Health . I wonder if he would be good enough to reconfirm the answer that he gave me a few weeks ago. The Federal Government has indexed the OAS and GAS and made larger payments to senior citizens.

Now , as the Provincial Government passed that on - I think that was the answer that I first received - it wasn't just considered as a revenue ; it was passed on to the people. Now, the reason for this question, may I say to the Honourable Minister , is that I have had a call saying that this person claimed that the supplement for the elderly in this case has been reduced; is that ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. May I suggest to the Honourable Member for St. Boniface that we will be dealing with the Minister's Estimates later on today . MR.

DESJARDINS: May I say to you that this might be in about three months, when we get to that , and in the meantime this is quite urgent for these people by now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, in answer to the honourable member's question, I can reconfirm that yes, the indexed amount has been passed on. If he knows of a situation where through bookkeeping or clerical or administrative error that an error has been made , I certainly will look into it. But the increase has been passed on. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism . HON.

ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker , I would like to just briefly clarify an answer which I made yesterday with regard to the lifeguards, the question that was asked of me by the Member for Rupertsland - this had to do with lifeguards at public beaches.

We will be having lifeguards to a certain extent at Birds Hill Park for this coming weekend ; however, because of the cold weather conditions up in northern Manitoba , lakes such as Paint Lake will not be having lifeguards on duty; also in the Whiteshell area the ice has only gone out a week or two ago and as a result the waters are fairly cold , and within the next couple of weeks , as water conditions warm up, lifeguards will be placed at those different locations. MR SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan . MR. PETER FOX: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is directed to the Minister of Labour .

I wonder , in speaking to the Rotar ians last night and saying she would not tolerate harmful strikes , could she define " harmful strikes? " MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): Firstly, Mr. Speaker, I did not say that I would not tolerate strikes . I was emphasizing the importance of the minimum of government interference in collective bargaining, but I said that the government would also recognize their responsibility if strikes were to affect the health and security of the people of Manitoba, and I would hope that the previous 2363

Thursday, May 18, 1978 government would have felt that responsibility if they feel as strongly as we do about the security of the people of Manitoba . MR. FOX: Mr. Speaker, my second question is in respect to when the legislation will be brought down ; will it include professionals as well as ordinary working people, in respect to strikes? MRS. PRICE: Mr. Speaker , I don't know what legislation the Member for Kildonan is referring to . MR. FOX: Well , Mr.

Speaker, I'm referring to legislation because there is no other way a government can enforce what it wants to have done , and I'm sure that the Minister was sincere when she said she would do something if it was necessary , so I'm asking her what she's going to do and whether it will include professionals , whether it will also include lockouts , not only strikes? MRS. PRICE: Mr. Speaker , it would include anybody who would be jeopardizing the health or security or the economy of any great deal of our province . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows . MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture . Would he be good enough to table the legislation from British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Ontario to which he claims the Cattle Producers ' Association Act is similar? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR.DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker , I would just like to clarify that matter if I may. It is indeed the privilege of the member opposite to get legislation on his own behalf . I did not indicate that the legislation in other provinces was the same . I indicated , Mr.

Speaker, if I may, that there were associations of the same type in the enabling legislation we were setting up for the Manitoba Cattle Producers . It is, I believe, recorded that it is a fact, an association similar to what is proposed in Manitoba . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Meer for St. Johns. MR.

SAUL CHERNIACK: I'm wondering if I could ask the Honourable Minister of Agriculture, since he is co-operating to this extent , if he would be prepared to table a sample, if not all, but a sample of the letters which he has in favour of a Cattle Producers ' Association in Manitoba and a sample of the letter that he has of those who were opposed to it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker , I am pleased that the members opposite are anxious to have one of those copies .

I will be dealing with that on the point of privilege if the members can wait until the Member for Lac du Bonnet appears in his seat this afternoon , or at the first convenience. I will be dealing with that and they will be dealt with at that time. MR. CHEIACK: Mr. Speaker , a further supplementary .

In view of the fact that all of us will be prepared to hear , in due course, the exchange between the Member for Lac du Bonnet and the Minister of Agriculture, I would ask him whether it wouldn't be more helpful for all of us to understand the discussion that will take place if we indeed have before us a sample copy of the letters to which he referred to. I understood his not wanting to file 4,000 letters , and how many more I don 't know, but a sample of the letter would be helpful to all of us if he is prepared to table it. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker , as I explained, I will be dealing with that at the time of speaking on the point of privilege. I'm just offering the courtesy to the Member for Lac du Bonnet, which I was not afforded yesterday , to raise this point of privilege . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr . Speaker, may I just clarify that I'm not asking for an explanation or a discussion . I'm just asking if the Minister is prepared to file a sale of the letter , so then upon receipt of it we will be able to better understand the difference of opinion between the two members . MR. SPEAKER: Order please . Order please .

May I suggest that repetitive questions may not be in the best interests of the House . The Honourable Member for Selkirk. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Attorney-General. I wonder if the 2364

Thursday, May 18, 1978 could advise the House whether or not as a result of the recent trip by his legal advisors to Switzerland and possibly to Austria in connection with the Reiser matters, whether or not there has been any significant change in the procedure that had been commenced insofar as the charges against Reiser, Kasser and others . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER(Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, the special prosecutors retained by the government have not been to Switzerland ; they did go to Austria at the beginning of this week to review the status of the matter in Austria , and are still in Austria and I expect them to return next week and report to us at that time . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Selkirk . MR. PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker , in view of the fact that the special prosecutors did not visit Switzerland, can he advise us as to whether or not there have been any developments pertaining to the charges against Reiser and Company in Switzerland that would cause there be no need for their attendance in Switzerland? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , the Member for Selkirk didn 't refer to the time period during which he was discussing . There were attendances in Switzerland earlier in the year with respect to the matter of an appeal against the decision of the Canton of Thurgaw.

Since then an appeal has been filed against that decision through the Department of External Affairs and discussions are under way between the Department of External Affa irs and the federal authority with respect to the previous deci sion made there , but there has been no resolve of that matter , either of the appeal or of the discussions going on through the Department of External Affairs. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon . MR. THOMAS BARROW: Mr. Speaker , I will direct my question to the Minister of Health .

Concerning the problem in Snow Lake in the lack of doctors , I commend the Minister for attempting to start a rotation system from Churchill and Winnipeg. Would the Minister not agree that a rotation system from Flin Flon to Snow Lake would be much more convenient, being as the distance is that much shorter? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would certainly agree that if there are some physicians available for that kind of emergency service from Flin Flon, yes, it would appear to be more convenient to use them .

That emergency program has been worked out by the Northern Medical Services, under Dr. Hildes , and I presume he has been unsuccessful so far in attracting physicians from that community , but I will investigate that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste . Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture. The Minister took as notice some time ago to provide information on a question I posed to him in regard to a meeting at Elkhorn with Mr. Church in attendance .

I would like to now know if the Minister could advise if a resolution was passed at this meeting unanimously opposing a checkoff without a referendum? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker , as I indicated, there had been verbal discussion and the consensus of the meeting , I believe , was that they were opposed to a checkoff. However , if the Member for Ste.

Rose reads the intent of the bill, that there will not be a checkoff on beef cattle in the Province of Manitoba until after a producer elected board is elected by the producers themselves and they themselves will have the opportunity to implement the checkoff. MR. ADAM: Yes, a supplementary . My question is whether or not a resolution was passed at this meeting with Mr. Church in attendance , represent ing the Minister . Was a resolution passed at this meeting requesting that there be no checkoff in the Province of Manitoba without first holding a referendum?

Now, the Minister had a representative there; surely he can give us an honest answer . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, there again are accusations by the member opposite that I am not 2365

Thursday, May 18, 1978 reporting to the House . I have said that, as indicated from that meeting, 1 do not have , to my knowledge , in the department at this time a documented form with that kind of a resolution on it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker , I wish to direct another question to the Minister of Agriculture .

Would the Minister of Agriculture be prepared to table the evidence that he has, which in his opinion demonstrates a similarity between producer-funded organizations such as he envisages coming into being under Bill 25 and those in existence in the provinces British Columbia , Alberta, Saskatchewan and Ontario , to which he had made refer ence last Friday? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the member opposite can avail himself to that information in other provinces .

As I have said in all the information that I have provided that it is support for a cattle association in the province and that is what I have stated and will continue to state. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I think I have a point of order . I have no knowledge of what the Honourable Min ister based his statement when he said that the producer-funded organizations in the provinces I had named are similar to what he envisages will come into being now . So, therefore, I cannot avail myself to that information . Therefore, once again , Mr.

Speaker, by way of supplementary , I ask the Honourable Minister whether he would provide this House , by tabling the evidence that he has about . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order , order please, order please. May I suggest to the Honourable Member for Burrows, as I have already suggested today , that repetitive questions in this Chamber do not lead to good question periods . The Honourable Member for Selkirk . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Agriculture .

In view of the increasing concern in connection with the cattle growers bill , would the honourable member consider a referendum of cattle growers in the Province of Manitoba to ascertain their true desires and wills pertaining to this legislation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker , as my honourable friend opposite is well aware , that in presenting legislation to the House and to the people of Manitoba the procedure is to get the people of the province to speak on that legislation in committee, that they will have an opportunity to do so, and I feel that , as I have stated many times , there is support in the provi nce of the majority of producers for an organization and the legislation is now before them and will be going to committee for their discussion . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , with due respect, the honourable member has not answered my question .

Is he prepared to, at any time , submit this matter to a referendum of producers in the Province of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellin gton . MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Mr. Speaker , my question is addressed to the Honourable Minister of Finance in his capacity as Acting First Minister .

I would ask the Hono urable Minister whether or not he and members of his Cabinet in government have yet had an opportunity to decide whether they will convene a special meeting with civic representatives from the City of Winnipeg, in order to ascertain whether they will give effect to the resolve of the Council last evening, with respect to the acceleration of Public Works ' projects scheduled for the next five years? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affai rs. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker . it may be, and I understand from news reports that a decision respecting this subject matter was made by City Council last evening. That decision and the specific projects to which it refers have not yet been received in my office and as soon as it is, I will take the matter up with Cabinet. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington . MR. CORRIN: A supplementary, then , to the Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs, Mr. Speaker . 2366

Thursday, May 18, 1978 Would the Minister of Urban Affairs be willi ng to give us his undertaki ng as Minister Responsible for Urban Affairs, to convene a meeting of the joint delegat ion with civic and Cabinet representatives as soon as possible, I would suggest - and th is is gratuitous - that such a meeting be called as soon as possible , perhaps in the time phase of one or two weeks, in order that immediate attention be given to this particular resolution of Winnipeg City Council. This is an urgent matte r involving employment in a much-needed area of our economy, and . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

May I suggest to the member that he asks this question and allows the Minister a chance to answer? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , if such a meeting is required by the City , then such a meeting will be held. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. Further to the answer which the Honourable Minister of Tourism gave to the House today regarding the beach patrols , I would like to ask him if he could supply the House with the actual figures for each location , as to how many beach patrol people will be on duty , and when they will be starting actual duty?

I note he mentioned Birds Hill will be one of the first brought on stream, but I'm wondering , for the other locations how many people will be involved and when they will be starting? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Tourism . MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker , it is my understanding that staff is right now meeting with Red Cross officials; they have forwarded a list of lifeguards to us; we will be establishing those particular guidel ines and also the locations within a very short while and I would be happy to table them in the House or provide the honourable member opposite with that once it's been totally formulated . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR. BOSTROM: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. My second question is to the Minister of Consumer Affairs . Given that the company which goes by the name , J.A.

Jarmoc Project Management Limited , is presumably still operating illegally after having ente red into agreement with the Provincial Government regarding a condominium unit , that is, operating illegally with using the name " Limited " in their company name, has the Minister completed his investigation on this matter, and will he be taking any action in this regard as per the Companies Act which does prov ide a penalty of a maximum $500 fine for this practice? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs . HON. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr.

Speaker, this quest ion from the Member for Rupertsland is a follow-up to one that was placed some time ago and in this connection I told the member at that time that the Corporations Branch was pursuing the matter in the normal way, and that when they had a report to be made it would be communicated to him. This investigation has taken place, I assure him, in a manner that is usual in all such cases, and when the results are obtained he will be informed . MR. BOSTROM: Well, Mr.

Speaker , given that it has been some several weeks since the Minister had told me that the only delay would possibly be the Royal Mail, could he give us some indication when he expects this report to be put before the House, or will we have to wait as long as we're waiting for the Jarmoc report? MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker , I cannot give the member any precise information as to when the investigat ion will be completed. I will say again that when it is completed he will be advised . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to give an answer to the Honourable Member for Selkirk, when he questioned me about the units in Selkirk . To date , at the present time we are building 12 new family publ ic health units in Selkirk that will be finished this fall. That will give us a total of 192 units , of which 35 are trainee housi ng units. We will be opening 63 senior citizens ' units within the next couple of months, which will bring us to elderly persons , 139. We have 221 applications for public housi ng, and we have on application , 76 for senior citizens. 2367

Thursday, May 18, 1978 Now , our statistics show us approximately 40 percent of those applications are eligible people. We are presently going over the applications in Selkirk, taking a look at them from their qualifications, and because of the empty houses we feel that our figures aren't quite the same as the Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs- but they're close- because I guess we took our figures at a different time.

They feel there's approximately 52 vacancies in Selkirk in the Bestlands and townhouses and Mercury Street, to give some examples, and we are presently looking at the possibility if, to the people that qua lify for assistance in housing of possibly utilizing some of the empty units that are presently in the Town of Selkirk. We feel that we can probably have the situation in Selkirk in very good shape after we make this survey . Now, in Portage Ia Prairie, Mr. Speaker, we have 121 units, including 36 which are under construction at the present time in Portage Ia Prairie , of family public housing.

Elderly persons' housing, we have 65 units which will be under construction this year. We have pending 24 applications for family public housing and we have 70 applications for senior citizens ' housing . Elderly and infirm persons , we have 113 licensed units ; 52 eligible for rent supplement and only 10 actually being subsidized . We have low-dividend units , 88 units in Chelsea Terrace ; 22 eligible for rent supplement ; none actually being subsidized as of March . MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

May I suggest to the Honourable Minister that maybe if he presented that to the House in printed form , it would take a lot of time off the question period? . The Honourable Minister . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr . Speaker, I was only asked this question ; I just have very little more. In Portage Ia Prairie, we have serviced in 1975, 118 lots at below market prices and to date only 34 have been taken up; we still have the balance waiting to be taken up. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Selk irk . MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to thank the honourable member for his information. wonder if he would concur that insofar as the 52 vacancies which he made reference to in Selkirk as against some 145 applications , that insofar as those 52 vacancies are concerned re Bestlands , that families of $12,000 per annum and under would not qualify for rental or purchase of the Bestlands units? MR. JOHNSTON: Well , Mr. Speaker , just briefly, I didn 't suggest that they would qualify for purchase ; I said we may be able to use those units for people and give them a rental subsidy within those units . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows . MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr . Speaker , I wish to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce . Would he consider bringing in legislation for the businessmen of the Province of Manitoba similar to the Cattle Producers' Act in terms of its objects and intent and method of operation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Indus try and Commerce. MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman , I have not given that any consideration and if there is anything that comes forward as far as legislation that I am invo lved with, I will be tabling it in the House, but I haven't given that matter any consideration. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker , I wish to direct a question to the Honourable Attorney-General. Would he advise the House whether there is a recognized entity, recognized by his department and by the courts, known as the University of Manitoba Police Force? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that there are commissionaires at the University of Manitoba who issue traffic summonses and enforce regulations of the University on their property. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour . If quoted 2368

Thursday, May 18, 1978 correctly by members of the press, the Honourable Minister indicated that there would be no reduction, or the government does not intend to reduce its involvement in the regulation of health and safety conditions in the workplace. My question to the Minister then is: Does her government intend to increase its involvement in the regulation of health and safety conditions? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MRS. PRICE: It is under review now, Mr. Speaker. MR. COWAN: Mr.

Speaker , is the Minister then willing to explain the detail of her department's proposed revamping of operations pertaining to the regulation of health and safety conditions in Manitoba 's workplaces and could she further explain what impact or effect that would have on The Workplace Health and Safety Act? MR. SPEAKER: Order please . May I suggest to the honourable member that those questions might better be raised during examination of her Estimates . The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs . MR. McGILL: Mr.

Speaker , on April 28th and May 15th , the Member for Brandon East asked some quest ions about the Milk Control Board, whether there are restr ictions to consumers obtaining financial information so that they could present a well-prepared case to the Milk Control Board and he asked further that if there were restrictions would the Minister bring in legislations to amend the Act. Mr.

Speaker , I'm advised that in the statutes administered by the Consumer Department, there are no impediments or restrictions which would in any way affect this provision or otherwise of financial information but I think , of course , the question really asks for an examination in a broader sense of the whole method by which the Milk Control Board deals with the problem of establishing producer and maximum fluid milk prices in Manitoba .

I would point out to the member that the board has carried on its duties on behalf of consumers and processors in a sort of non-adversarial way without disclosing data on the individual firms involved . Mr. Speaker , the member would appreciate that when there are a number of producers involved that the supplying of confidential data publicly would not be in the interests of the industry , generally. So, in essence, the question I suppose , Mr. Speaker, comes down to whether or not the member feels that the board is serving the public well and it's my opinion of course that this is the case in this respect.

To change the system in any manner would result in the releasing of data of several different competing firms to the public . So, Mr. Speaker , again while this board is not under the authority or responsibility of the Department of Consumer Affairs , I did offer to bring back this information to the Member for Brandon East and as far as any amendments to the regulations or statutes , we are not proposing to introduce any at this time . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Well , I thank the Minister for his reply , his statement.

I appreciate that it is not in the best interests of the industry to disclose data on individual compan ies. By way of clarification , I'd like to ask the Minister then if he feels that nothing can be done to assist the consumer groups, as opposed to the industry groups, to assist the consumer groups in obtaining that kind of data that would enable them to present a case against what they may deem to be an unwarranted increase in the price of milk , particularly when one large producer , one large processor , is not asking for a price increase .

Is there no hope therefore for the consumer groups to obtain that data now in order to present the kind of case that they believe they should present in order to hold back what they deem to be an unwarranted rise, or particular unwarranted rise , in the price of milk at this time? MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker , to repeat , there are no impediments within the statutes of the Department of Consumer Affairs that would prevent any activity by consumer groups.

The matter which the member brings up really is under The Milk and Dairy Products Control Act and that is the responsib ility of my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Tourism . Can he confirm that there 2369

Thursday, May 18, 1978 have been staff cutbacks in the Museum of Man and Nature and that opening hours have been cut back from 9 p .m. daily to 4:30 p.m. daily, in effect cutting off access to most working Manitobans? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman , the Museum of Man and Nature operates with their own board of elected board of directors and has a general manager and I'm sure it is trying to do the best as far as it can do with regard to providing access to the public of Manitoba .

They have been having several displays for the people in the province and I just signed a proclamation with regard to Museum Days where they encourage people to come and see how the different museum artifacts are made so I'm sure that they are providing access to the public to the best of their ability and will continue to do so. MR. PARASIUK : A supplement ary . Can the Minister confirm that one of the positions eliminated in the Museum of Man and Nature has been that of multicultura l studies? MR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker , I am not responsible for the day-to-day operations .

What we do is we provide one grant for that particular operation and there are competent people on the board of directors as well as management level that are looking after the interests of the people of Manitoba . MR. PARASIUK: In the light of the fact that the Minister provides the money to the museum and in light of the fact that we have a multicultural nature to our province, does the Minister agree with the elimination of the position of multicultural studies from the Museum of Man and Nature? Do you agree with that elimination or not? MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker , I will just repeat that the staff is running that particular facility the way they see fit with the Province of Manitoba. With regard to multiculturalism, we just announced a $100 ,000 grant to the French Cultural Centre, we announced grants to the Ukrnian Society and we're providing cultural grants of substantial amounts as the year progresses. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. I believe our Question Period has elapsed . ORDERS OF THE DAY - ORDER FOR RETURN MR. SPEAKER: I would ask the indulgence of the House, has the matter of the Order for Return been resolved? The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR.

FOX: Well, Mr. Speaker , as you'll note on the Order Paper, there is a Notice of Motion that I will be introducing an amended Order for Return . Consequently I request of the House the permission to withdraw the first Order for Return. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. The Honourable Government House Leader . BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker , before I announce the business of the House for today , may I just make an announcement regarding the Public Utilities Committee.

It is my intention to call Public Utilities for Tuesday next, and in all probability the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation will be the first corporation that will be dealt with . As honourable members know , the Chairman of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation is currently in London and of course his appearance before that committee will be contingent upon his arrival back in Canada . We are hoping that he will be back . In the event that he does not make it, then the Man itoba Telephone System will be appearing . Mr.

Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for Health and Social Development and the Honourable Member for Crescentwood in the Chair for Executive Council. .$$ CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EXECUTIVE COUNCIL 2370

r Thursday, May 18, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Warren Steen: Gentlemen, we have a quorum. Will the committee come to order before we lose our membership? The Honourable Minister responsible for the Task Force will be the first spokesman . MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, a number of questions were raised at the last sitting concerning the methodology of the Task Force and its review teams.

I indicated at the time that I would table the names of the departmental liaison officials which were chosen by the Task Force to present information on behalf of their departments and I would like to , if I may, hand that list out. I don 't think it's necessary to read the list but I would ask that it be included in the Hansard as read if that would be sufficient. MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. To members of the committee, the Clerk will distribute copies of the list mentioned by the Minister and see that it is included into Hansard . DEPARTMENT LIAISON: Agriculture: Dr. Helgi Austman , Assistant Deputy Minister .

Attorney-General: Mr. John A. D. Graham , Assistant Deputy Minister. Co-operative Development: Lenore Good , Director of Research and Planning . Consumers' Bureau: Mr. Gordon Snider, Director of Administration; Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services. Continuing Education and Manpower: Dr. W. C. Lorimer, Deputy Minister . Corrections: Doug Clark, Acting Director, Adult Corrections . Education: Mr. Robert W. Dalton, Deputy Minister . Environmental Management: Mr. W. J. Podolsky , Acting Head, Administrative Services; Mines, Resources and Environmental Management. ,_,. Finance: Mr. Mal G.

Anderson, Comptroller , Comptroller's Division . Fitness and Amateur Sport: Mr. Fil Fileccia, Executive Director, Operation Support Services Branch; Department of Health and Social Development. Health: Mr. Fil Fileccia. Highways: Mr. C. Jackson , Construction Engineer , Operations Branch . Industry and Commerce: lan Blicq , Assistant Deputy Minister , Enterprise Development Group. Labour: Jim P. Wood , Research Analyst , Labour Research Division . Lotteries Commission: Fil Fileccia . 2371

Thursday , May 18, 1978 Manitoba Health Services Commission: Mr. Rudy Bristow, Director of Facilities, MHSC. Mines, Resources and Environmental Management: W. J. Podolsky. Municipal Affairs: Mr. J. D. McNairnay , Q.C., Deputy Minister . Emergency Measures Organization: Mr. J. D. McNairnay ,Q.C. Northern Affairs: Mr. Lionel Kuran , Director, Airport Operations and Maintenance . Parks, Recreation and Cultural Affairs: Mr. Del W. Gallagher, Deputy Minister. Public Utilities : Mr. Gordon Snider. Public Works: Steve Sohor , Director , Administrative Division . Renewable Resources and Transportation Services: Mr.

AI Hodgson , Co-ordinator, Resource Programs. Rent Stabilization: Mr. Gordon Snider. Securities Commission : Mr. Gordon Snider. Social Development: Peter Schmidt, Executive Director, Financial and Central Services Branch . Telecommunications Branch: Mr. Gordon Snider. Tourism: Del Gallagher . Urban Affairs: Mr. McNairna y. Tax Credit Office: Mal Anderson. MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE AUDITORS : Jim Apostle , Dick Chenier , Shel Diamond, Norm Frohlich , Bob Gorchyski, Marlynn Little , Eric Preston, Val Zinger . TASK FORCE REPRESENTATIVE: Administration: Mr .

Frank Ball, Chief Financial Officer , Workers Compensation Board . Agriculture: Mr. Ross Cameron , Programs Officer , Program Analysis Branch , Management and Operations Division - Janet Honey , Resource Analyst, Planning Secretariat of Agriculture . Crown Corporations: Michael Deeter , Acting Planning Secretary to Cabinet. 2372 .... ..

Thursday, May 18, 1978 Education and Cultural Development: Mr. Jim E. Nykoluk, Director, Manpower Assessment Branch , Department of Continuing Education and Manpower . Economic Development: Mr. W. M. Ward, Director, Program Development and Review, Environmental Management Division, Department of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management. Health Care: Mr. Richard Criddle, Vice-president, Administration, St. Boniface General Hospital. Local Government: Mr. Brian B. McCallum, Outside Plant Engineer, Manitoba Telephone System . Social Development: Mr.

Ralph Kuropatwa , Executive Director , Program Analysis and Review Branch, Department of Health and Social Development . Northern AHairs and Renewable Resources and Transportation Services: Ron Kabaluk, Chief Program Research

Section - David Tomasson, Chief Program Management

Section . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister again . MR. SPIVAK: Yes. You know, Mr. Chairman , the liaison person on the Management Committee Auditors who were involved total in number approximately 40. On the question that was asked, Mr. Chairman, at the last sitting concerning the number of civil servants who were contacted by the Task Force and its review teams , we attempted to do the following things and I would like to, if I may, Mr. Chairman , put this as a matter of record because this information was not furnished and I think it's relevant to the discussions .

We contacted by circular, sent by the Task Force to all civil servants and most employees of Crown corporations in which we solicited submissions from them to the Task Force itself. That numbered some 30,000 circulars, Mr. Chairman, that were sent to the government employees . As I've indicated before, newspaper advertisements were also placed throughout the province and, as has been indicated, we received over 500 submissions which represent , in an approximate guess, between 600 to 800 individuals who replied .

In addition , a number of the review teams as part of their methodology circulated their own circulars and questionna ires and received approximately between 100 to 200 replies to their requests. In the past two days since the last sitting , my staff has been attempting to compile statistics regarding the number of meet ings which the review teams held and the number of civil servants _,; with whom they met. The committee will understand that these numbers are far - from complete as comprehensive records have not been kept in all cases .

We have, however , been able to identify the name of 350 individual civil servants with whom the review teams met and that number excludes those who met with the Task Force itself. The review teams and their members conducted over 290 meetings . The Social Development review team alone , Mr. Chairman, met for over 180 hours for a total of nearly 800 man hours . The Task Force itself met at least twice weekly and in the last month of our work met nearly daily. We do not have anything like complete records of the civil servants with whom we met; that is the Task Force itself as opposed to the review teams .

But , by way of example , in three excursions outside of Winnipeg we have met with at least 55 civil servants and a roughly equivalent number of members of the general public . Our staff , of course , met with civil servants throughout the course of our work . Jr: In all, Mr. Chairman , we estimate that the number of civil servants who had direct contact with the review teams or its members , the Task Force staff or the Task Force itself certainly exceeds "' 500 and probably exceeds 1,000. In addition, we had contact with several hundred members of the general public, public service organizations, and so on. Mr.

Chairman, many of these meetings took place with the understanding that strict confidence 2373

Thursday, May 18, 1978 could be observed and I am not prepared to discuss the particulars of the meetings or the submissions except as I indicated the other night. I believe that there was full opportunity for any member of the Civil Service or the public to make his or her views known to the Task Force and hundreds did just that. Mr. Chairman , I do not mean to suggest that our study was exhaustive. We attended only to conduct a management review of as many departments and agencies as possible during our short mandate . Our report does not pretend to be a scientific analysis or a comprehensive program review.

It does claim to be the best effort of several hundred civil servants and private citizens with expertise in the management of large organizations to bring government under control. We made our recommendations as best we could on the information we had and if the members of the committee have other information or have other recommendations, they are certainly free to offer them and I would welcome their contribution to the public debate in this committee. MR.

CHAIRMAN: To the members of the committee, as we left off the other evening I had three ,. names on the list, prior to accepting the motion for the committee to rise, and they were the Member for St. Johns, the Member for Wolseley, and the Member for Selkirk. The Member for Selkirk is absent right now but he was in the room, and we will go in that order unless the members names that I have read off are not interested in speaking at this time . The Member for St. Johns is first. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I am interested in speaking but I will withhold in favour of those who have been waiting, just to ask the Minister is this the only undertaking the Minister gave? I had the impression there was more than one but we don't have Hansard yet. MR. SPIVAK: No, I think the only undertaking I gave was to, in term .. . MR. CHERNIACK: To produce what has been . .. Well, I accept that, Mr. Chairman. Then one other question dealing with this subject and then I will move off.

On Page 12 the Task Force Report states that where detailed discussions were not held with senior individuals in program areas close program audits were conducted. Could the Minister describe to us what kind of audits were conducted? MR. SPIVAK : Well, Mr. Chairman, I think that that paragraph has to be read together with the other paragraphs on the page, which indicated that we had access to the reports, studies, evaluations and undertakings by the government in the last decade , and including the program audits of all the government's activities that were under their scrutiny. So, Mr.

Chairman, in some cases it was necessary and in some cases it was desirable to refer to and we did refer to those particular audits plus the various studies that have been undertaken - some internal, some which have been external in the sense of external consultants, some which were within the public domain, some that were not. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairman, my

interpretation of this statement is that the Task Force or its review teams conducted close program audits, not that they read someone else's or reviewed someone else's audits, but that they themselves conducted it. Now, if that verb " conducted" is wrong, and it means reviewed, I'd like an explanation. On the other hand, if the Minister says they were conducted, there's nothing I can say that they weren 't conducted, but I wanted it clear; were they or weren't they? MR. SPIVAK: Well, I think that there were some .

I indicated before, and I now indicate to you, that there was a very close program audit of the financial arrangements in terms of accounting procedures and controls within the Department of Northern Affairs with particular reference to the operation of the trust accounts of the Department of Northern Affairs and its operation, and that was a program audit which was conducted ; conducted with the benefit of consultants who were experienced, and as a result there were procedures recommended which were in fact adopted and altered the procedures that would have been followed in the past. x MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr.

Chairman , that's Northern Affairs and that's an audit of financial affairs; program audit means an audit, for example, involving the hospitals; or for example, involving special projects in the Department of Education . And I don't know where senior individuals were not involved in direct discussions. I'm looking at this paragraph that says close program audits were conducted . It means to me by the Task Force or the review teams, and I would like to know whether the Minister 2374

• : Thursday, May 18, 1978 wants us to accept the statement that where there were not senior individuals there was a close program audit conducted . If that's the wrong terminology, I would rather it were corrected, than to leave us . MR. SPIVAK: No, I don't think the terminology is wrong, Mr. Chairman, I think that we can continue on. There were in fact audits with respect to administration which were program audits. You see, the Member for St.

Johns is talking in terms of a specific program, in terms of the government operation ; we were talking about the organization and efficiency which include the programs of government dealing with administration, and there were in fact several specific studies that were undertaken, one with respect to the whole data service, not only MDS but the whole computer programming of government. And that was a program of government that in fact required and did receive a close program audit by the Task Force . MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr.

Chairman , I just picked out of Volume II , I just opened the book and I happened to open it at Page 66, which is as good a way to look for a spot check as any - and I see under Care and Treatment of Juvenile Offenders , " no additional juvenile spaces other than psychiatric should be brought onstream in Manitoba ." Mr. Chairman, just that statement alone has to be based on the review of the program; not of finances, not of administration, but of the delivery of a service .

Now, can we say, or assume that where there were not discussions held with senior individuals in program areas , a close program audit was conducted? - program in the sense of delivery of a service by the government to the public. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Chairman , to begin with I'm satisfied that in almost all cases there may be some senior officials involved in discussions with the review team of the Task Force, and I think I can say that pretty clearly.

There may be an example where one person did not meet with the Task Force or wasn't interviewed but I think in most cases senior people were involved , and in addition the program auditors had the reports and the Task Force had access to the reports of the government in the last period of time . I don 't think there 's any contradiction and I think both statements stand for itself . The statement that was made on Page 66 I think the honourable Member for St.

Johns referred to is a Task Force statement and based on its observations and its determination , and recommendations flow from that; it's based on the information that was available to us and on the information that was perceived from discussions and from review . And to that extent, Mr. Chairman, that is, I think , a procedure that any commission goes through in arriving at whatever conclusions it has to arrive at. -(Interjection)- Well , Mr. Chairman, again and for the Member fbr St. Johns we'll clear this up. I don 't expect him to disagree.

They were no secret than any other commissions that have been held that are held as a result - (Interjection) - are held in secret. So, there are many commissions that are held in secret, Mr. Chairman, and that 's not such an unusual thing . The Lambert Commission is a commission that is investigating government management and is conducting itself as a review. The other commissions that have been held, some have had public hearings some have not.

This was an attempt in a short period of time to try and see whether there were recommendations that could be brought forward which would assist the government in attempting to meet the budgetary problems it had ; and secondly, in being able to try and resolve what appeared to be certain management difficulties and the need for change .

And to that extent, as I indicated in my opening statement today , it was not the most scientific that could be accomplished , it was not the most exhaustive, but in four months it did produce a report , and I'm really interested in hearing the kinds of recommendations from the members opposite to understand what they agree witb, what they disagree with , and curiously enough what they would have done had they remained in power . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman , I just make this point , that this Task Force received wide political publicity and was a report made to the pub lic, not to the government ; not for the government's assistance but rather as a political document in my opinion . And, Mr. Chairman , I am looking forward to going through the Task Force Report and recommendations but I bear mind that there are assumptions made of which we are not aware based on information that we are not aware, and we will find it difficult to discuss these recommendations without a sufficient knowledge of the backgrounding , of the validity of the assumptions made .

That's just a comment , not a question . MR. SPIVAK: I'd like to make a comment. I think that there is no way that we could have possibly 2375

Thursday, May 18, 1978 satisfied the Member for St. Johns . If we had made this document as a private document to the government and not made it public , we would have been accused of dealing in utmost secrecy and in effect we would have been accused of the lack of open government. The fact is that we have produced a report which has been presented to the government and which the public have full knowledge. The Honourable Member for St. Johns can state that it's a political document .

To the extent that every document produced by government is political , it can be classified as political , but this was an attempt, Mr. Chairman - I say this , and I do not believe that I would any way be able to satisfy the Honourable Member for St. Johns - an attempt on the part of a number of people who we're committed to try and to provide to the government the benefit of their experience and expertise in assisting the government in carrying out its function. They did it on the basis of 1..1 providing as best they could , the benefits of their experience and involvement.

They did it with a great deal of enthusiasm and they did it, I think , in an unbiased way. There are a number of conclusions that the review team and the members came forward with which were consistent even though their backgrounds were different and I cite that their backgrounds were different and I think that the document can be argued on its merits by anyone and that's a logical debate that can occur in a free society and I don 't question that , and the Member for St.

Johns will say it's political but I have to tell you that no matter what kind of a document we produced four months after a defeat in an election , he would have suggested that it was a political document. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolseley, then Selkirk. MR. ROBERT G.

WILSON: The other night I had a speech prepared to congratulate the Chairman, Co-chairman , on the fine Task Force Report but I wanted to be one of the Conservative MLAs who on Page 139 does not agree with this group of individuals , and I wondered if the Minister might care to tell me who these experts in Tourism are because it would seem to me that at a time when you have a .90 cent and .85 cent dollar, that to reduce the travel of the Tourism Budget by 20 percent and acually, in fact , $25.9 million down 9.9 percent , I think is most questionable .

I think if we look at the fact that an announcement that Ottawa and Quebec have an agreement for $76 million for tourism development and upon checking and asking the staff what Manitoba gets from the Federal Government, I find that Manitoba hasn't even signed the Tourism Agreement with the Federal Government so they don 't get a cent.

So it seemed to me that if Manitoba would get busy and sign an agreement with the Federal Government , the Canadian Government Travel Office might give something to the Province of Manitoba if they can give $76 million to Quebec and I can't for the life of me see how these Task Force individuals running these suggestions, and I hope my suggestions will be taken exactly what they are. I'm trying to share the fact that periodicals and articles indicate that the Japenese market is going to go ahead by leaps and bounds and the Task Force has suggested that the Japenese market be eliminated .

I can think that most stays in Canada are for 15 days or longer from the Japenese market . They spend a week in Banff and then they 're looking to come to our fine farm development program . We have the farm vacation situation that the Japenese love to come here and take pictures of farm animals and what have you. And , it just seems to me that we're missing the boat and we have the best trophy fishing possibly in North America , yet people jump on at Lockport and our aircraft take them to northern Ontario .

So, it seems to me that destina tion development might be part of the answer and that means more money , not less money because if local Winnipeg fishermen are getting on at St . Andrews and going to northern Ontario fishing, when we have the finest sports fishing in North America I just shake my head in wonder ment.

So, I would just like to offer the suggestion that a 20 percent reduction in the tourism thing .,. at a time when we should be putting in more money becaus e we have an .85 cent , .90 cent dollar and possibly the reason is the Task Force Report may have been written prior to the devaluation of the dollar , so I hope the co-chairman will take my thoughts back to the committee . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister responsible for the Task Force . MR.

SPIVAK: Well, I think that the Member for Wolseley has simply highlighted the fact that again the Task Force Report is really recommendations and it doesn 't follow that everyone has to agree with the recommendations , and he obviously disagrees with one. The decisions were made as I've indicated based on the financial position we found ourselves in as a government and the need to look for those areas in which restraint could be exercised.

And in that area there could be many differing opinions and I would say that if he has an opinion as he has the time will probably be in the Estimates of the Department of Tourism which will simply shift this debate over to that period. 2376

_, ... Thursday, May 18, 1978 But in any case, I think logically that's where it should go but I accept what he says and I accept the fact that there will be difference of opinion but again, these are only recommendations. MR. CHAIRMAN: Member for Selkirk, then Winnipeg Centre. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I believe that the Minister was going to obtain for me information in connection with one William McCance . MR. SPIVAK: Oh, I'm sorry, to that extent that information ... when the Member for St . Johns asked for an undertaking I assumed it was related to the subject matter in which I was dealing .

Now that's true and I will have that information . I'm sorry I did not have that there before, it wasn't intended not to have it. He's a good fellow I'd like to assure the member. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. J.R. (Bud) BOYCE: Well, I'm sorry I wasn't at the meeting the other night, Mr. Chairman, but first of all I'm just trying to keep things clear in my mind, what kind of a ball game I'm in in this particular committee meeting.

First of all as I understand it the Minister responsible for reporting to the Legislature for the Task Force is not the Minister responsible for the Task Force, he is one of the co-chairmen as I understand it in terms of reference. Mr. Chairman, the Minister in making his presentation this afternoon used four or five times the term, "the Task Force attempted." I was really glad to hear the Minister use that specific term because he hasn 't presented this . .. in any way succeeded.

When he refers to audits, program audits, I find it passing strange that in checking with my colleagues none of the former Ministers were asked , none were asked in program evaluation . Let me put what I'm trying to say this way, Mr. Chairman. Everybody understands, you know, financial accounting. You get a dollar spent for this, did you get value received for it and all the rest of this. Evidence is rather hard in that regard, but it comes down to evaluating programs .

I know I wasn't approached to say, you know, what were you trying to accomplish , whether you agree with what we are trying to accomplish or not.$ For example, one of the responsibilities that I had was involving corrections . So, take a program , say probation. I would assume if they want to evaluate the program that they would at least go to the people who were responsible and say what we're you trying to accomplish by sending this amount of money in that particular view, what was your goal?

And then they would evaluate it to see, number one, whether they agreed with the goal, because that is their right to disagree with the goal. But they didn't do that , they didn 't find out what the former administration was trying to do as far as the ir programs were concerned, fcir this specific example that I am using.

Then to go to the people who were charged with the delivery of that particular service and solicit their opinions, their advice, whether the Minister or the government was out of their mind in the first place when they were trying to accomplish a particular goal for the particular program, or whether a different type of program could have been used to accomplish the same results at less cost. So .,/ when this document which is held forth to the pub lic of Manitoba as a four-month effort by a group of people - the Teachers ' Society , I think , put it most succinctly, and hit it on the head - it's a farce.

Those are my terms, not theirs . But nevertheless, they didn 't even ask the people who were involved in it. No. 1, they didn't check to see what the goals were; what people were trying to accomplish by the establishment of the programs in the first place? So whether they agree with those goals or not, and doubtless being of different political persuasion, they would disagree with some of the goals, but nevertheless there should have been an attempt.

If this was an honest assessment of what was taking place in the delivery of programs, especially in the area of social services, and I include in those social services, education itself. So we're talking about the expenditure of about three-quarters of the whole provincial budget; in health care , in education services - what were the goals? .. So, Mr. Chairman, for the Minister to try and defend this document as if it was an analysis that was even worth consideration of this august body, I think he's doing us a disservice .

If you were going , to evaluate something, you know, to apply what I have just said to myself in the situation of evaluation - we are asked to evaluate a Task Force Report. So for us to evaluate it then we would have to look at that which was used to evaluate. We have asked several times for the documentation, the opinions that went into this main recommendation, but that is not forthcoming, and that's the Minister's right, he didn't have to table this document; this is true.

But nevertheless to bring it out and suggest that we should offer an opinion on it, then I think it puts him in the position where they have to at least in some way 2377

Thursday, May 18, 1978 put before this Committee that evidence or that expression of opinion which led to those particular conclusions . Now, the Task Force Report itself , when it was tabled in the Legislature , it purports to be - I'm sorry I haven't got my copy in front of me - but on the front page , it includes, as a member of the Task Force, the President of the Manitoba Government Employees Association. And the thing is dated March, after the man had resigned ... MR. SPIVAK: It's not signed . MR. BOYCE: Excuse me, can I borrow a copy of it? MR. CHERNIACK: If it's not signed , well how would we know . MR.

SPIVAK: I'm sorry , but the actual one is. As a matter of record , so that you 'll know , just as a matter of record, the original copies were filed with the Lieutenant-Governor as was required under a Commission of Inquiry and they were signed by Mr. Riley, Mr. Holland and myself . Unfortunately , the signatures are not shown here but that's the actual. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairman , I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear the Ministe r. MR. SPIVAK: Well, what I'm saying is that the original , as required by a Commission of Inquiry, the originals are filed with the Lieutenant-Governor and they were filed, signed by Mr.

Holland, Mr. McCance and by myself . MR. BOYCE: Well, that might well be. but nevertheless I'm dealing with the document, I'm not dealing with the order-in-council to establish things here. I'm dealing with this thing as .. . MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, just so that the honourable member will know, this is not unusual with respect to commissions of inquiry , or how they are tabled , either in Manitoba or in the House of Commons in Ottawa , and that I can indicate to him. This is the same procedure, the printing is the same way as well. MR. BOYCE: Mr.

Chairman, is this standard procedure for the Minister to interject whenever he gets the desire to. If he disagrees with my opinion, he has the right to express these disagreements when he has the floor. Nevertheless , we had a document presented to us by a Task Force that was comprised of one Honourable Sidney Spivak, Q.C., William Jackson and Gordon Holland. There was another man involved in this particular thing; I think he was a co-chairman - at least, this is the information that was made public - Mr. Conrad S. Riley.

So for us to evaluate this, we should be able to ask these people questions , to see the reports that were made to these sub-groups , to see whether there 's any way of substantiating some of these recommendations. If this isn't forthcoming, Mr. Chairman, then I think we're wasting our time . MR. SPIVAK: Well, the question 's been raised , and it's been raised by other former Ministers , why did not the Task Force consult other former Ministers? And I'd like to throw that question back to them and ask them, why didn't they file a submiss ion?

They are members of the public like everyone else and they were entitled to file submis sions ; they have particular expertise , or believe they have particular expertise; surely they could have filed a submission.

I want to repeat again, because I think this is important, and important for some of the former Ministers to know as well, that there was a very frank discussion , open discussion , with the officials of the department with respect to the operation of the department , so that the review teams could have the benefit of their experience and to be able to weigh the alternative s that should be weighed when change is going to be considered. And in effect , that's really what happens . There was a perfect right on the part of the former Ministers to offer themselves by way of a contribution .

The thing that sort of irritates me at this point , and I have to say that , is that in all the discussions taken place so far in the House and the public debate , the attempt has been to try and talk in terms of the process and the method and sort of the conclusions in which there is disagreement , but I • haven 't really heard from the members opposite really what recommendations they disagree with, and why they disagree with them, and I think that would be an important part of it, Mr. Chairman , because I think that this is part of the debate that should occur.

But it would seem to me that there has been an attempt to be as open as possible in the explanation of the methodology, recognize the need for confidentiality and privacy - and that's what we've tried to do. I think the numbers that have been indicated today , which I didn't have at my fingertips the other night , I think indicate the real attempt to try and cover in a proper way and obtain information from those who have been involved in public service and those who have been affected , and those who believe change 2378 )II ;

Thursday, May 18, 1978 should occur. MR. BOYCE: Well , Mr . Chairman, I believe the Ministei means what he says, when he says that the former Ministers could have made representation because, knowing the member for a number of years , I believe he believes that. But that's not the attitude of the government. In this change of administration , for example, there were almost like, get lost we've got the ball now and we're not even interested in your opinion . I know , in the present circumstances, I don't fault the Minister, who has what 1 had as a former responsibility, because the man is overworked.

But nevertheless .. for him to suggest that we should have been the ones to pay for it, that's absolutely ludicrous, that 's absolutely ludicrous . And as far as the recommendations , we haven't even got there yet. I'm still on the first page of this thing . We haven 't got into it. Before you evaluate a book or an opinion you want to know whether it's worth the time that you are going to spend on evaluating that book . Years ago , when they first started to print books , you had to have an imprimatur on this .

You had to go to a Bishop and get a stamp on it, you know , and you would look for the imprimatur , you know , the credibility that you could give to this particular document. sSo, as years go by, people devie their own techniques in evaluating whether they should even read a book or not, or a document .

In textbooks the technique is to go to the back of the book and look at the bibliography to see what cross-references a particular indiv idual has used in presenting his opinion: So, before we get down to the very specific recommendations I am trying to understand whether it's worth - in the name of the people that I represent - whether it is even worth me spending the time of day in discussing it because to this point in time I have had absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it is worth the time to discuss it.

Because we have a document that people who are delivering tbe programs - for example, the Manitoba Teachers ' Society which is involved in delivering an important part of the social programs in the province - have expressed their opinion of how much credence should be given to this particular document.

So, I am sorry to try the patience of the Chair and the committee , but nevertheless for the Minister to suggest that we should have come forwa rd at this point in time or for him even to suggest now that we are responsible for coming forth with recommendations to bail him out , because that's what he needs , I suggest that that , too , is ludicrous . MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, I assume if I have to be bailed out ; we have a bailiff in the Conservative Party so there is no problem . But let me say to the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre , he mentioned Manitoba Teachers ' Society .

They have subsequently , since the publication of the report, met with the Cabinet and have given a writte n presentation of criticism . I think that they have shown some agreement in certain areas and disagreement in others. Clar ification that was required in understanding particularly the effect of Volume I and the way in which we would propose the structural changes that occur in that respect. I would hope that they have been satisfied to a certain extent. That would be a quest ion you would have to ask them. But I would assume that the proper kinds of dialogue that occur are exactly just that.

Those interest groups who are affected by the Task Force recommendations would come forward with their comments and I think that the dialogue is very important. I have to tell the honourable member that , with all due respect to him and I have respect him and his colleagues , I doubt that there is anything that was going to be able to be produced in this short period of time that would have been really satisfactory to the members opposite . I think that I would give as a basic premise but nevertheless , having said that , I am here and I would be interested to hear the comments . MR.

CHAIRMAN: Just before the Member for Winnipeg Centre carries on. What we are really here for is to pass a particular Minister's Salary under an item . He was the Minister responsible for the Task Force Report. Now, there are two ways of handling such a discussion: A general discussion on the Task Force Report where the Minister is either complimented or criticized for the way he and his Task Force handled a report , or the other way is you go page-by-page and item-by-item and all through it.

I am of the impression , and I do hope that we can have a general discussion on the report as a whole and on the Ministe r' s method of handling it . Therefore, at the conclusion of that we will either pass his salary or not. And this is my particular hope as a method of handling this particular item within these Estimates . The Member for Winnipeg Centre , again, and then Selkirk. MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr. Chairman , just to your point of order . 2379

Thursday, May 18, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: It's not a point of order; it's only a suggestion, as Chairman . MR. BOYCE: Well, then , to your suggested point of order . MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. MR. BOYCE: I have a difficulty right off the bat, because if we are to proceed to pass the report MR. CHAIRMAN: No, we're not passing a report; we are passing a Minister's Salary . And that Minister was responsible for this report and , therefore, I guess, that's the only real subject material that we have to discuss in discussing his salary . MR. BOYCE: In passing the Minister's salary, Mr.

Chairman , to state my difficulty, on the first paragraph of the first page of this particular report , "It is important to understand ," now this is the Task Force both Report itself , " It is important to understand the economic and governmental context in which the Task Force undertook its work . The premises shared by the newly elected government and the Task Force provided a background to our analysis, deliberations and recommendations .'' Where are these premises? Where are these premises? What are these premises? MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, they are contained within the report.

The essentia l information that was available to members of the Executive Council when they took office , the information that was available to the Task Force, was simply that we faced a deficit position of $225 million at that time , that, in turn, in terms of a projection we faced the probability of a $400 million deficit. That information was available to us from the sources that we had and the deductions that were made with respect to a comparison of a previous year 's estimate rise, which was the lowest in the last four years , and applying that to the projected year .

On the basis of that , and on the basis of the requirement for $650 million , which would have to have been met either by the raise in taxation plus borrowing , or borrowing in itself, simply warranted the need for the exercise of restraint; the need to review ; the need to try and , if possible, highlight areas in which there was duplication or a need for change. Mr. Chairman , on that basis, the Task Force applied itself.

The Order-in-Council essentially indicates the specifics that the Task Force was to undertake and that was passed by the Cabinet and it was on that basis, the premises are there and I don't expect the honourable member to agree . As I have often said and I have said it in the House, I think that the financial position which they would like to quarrel with , because I think , on the record , it is an indictment of the previous administration . MR. BOYCE: Well , Mr.

Chairman , I guess it's our differenc e in backgrounds, because the legal profession is, you know , trained to argue that black is white and vice versa. Nevertheless when somebody says to me " premises " , I would like a little bit more definitive statement than the Minister has just presented . Does he think that I will agree ? He hasn't said anything with which to agree or disagree .

But , perhaps then he can go down to anothe r paragraph in this particular report - and I'm still talking to the Minister 's Salary becau se he's the Minister responsible for being involved with it - down the page it says, " A result of the rapid growth in programs in the preceding years and the weakness of management contro l, staff has been hired in excess of program requi rements . The curtailment and elimination of lowpriority prog rams has also resulted in a surplus staff ." MR. CHERNIACK: That's their premise . MR.

BOYCE: Well this is the kind of premise that I'm lookf or so assume now the Minister is willing to take us through this effort for which he is responsible. MR. SPIVAK: Well let me ask the honou rable member , are you suggesting that there was no weakness of management control at the time we took over government? MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr. Chairman, of course I wouldn 't agree to that . MR. SPIVAK: How serious was that weakness? MR. BOYCE: Very serious . If you want to get down to the nitty-gritty , if you want to get down 2380

Thursday, May 18, 1978 to an area in which I had some responsibility, I'll go through with you dollar by dollar and I'll admit every mistake that I made . I can tell you one right off the top of my head - but nevertheless for somebody to say weakness of management control. . . MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I refer the honourable member to page 59 which shows the structure of the Executive Council , Management Committee and the Planning Secretariat, and I ask the honourable member whether he was prepared to indicate whether the structure as it is prepared on page 59 was in fact the structure they were operating under . MR. BOYCE: Well without prejudice, Mr. Chairman, I believe that was the structure, yes. MR. SPIVAK: Do you believe , Mr.

Chairman, I might ask the honourable member, that the Hess Committee, the Economic Resource and Development Sub-committee, the Manpower Employment Sub-committee were in fact meeting, and carrying out their functions over the last few years in terms of central management? MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr. Chairman, as a member of a Health Education and Social Planning Policy Sub-committee of Cabinet and as a member of Manpower Employment and Immigration Sub-Committee of Cabinet, the former , yes quite extensively , and the latter as much as is possible. - (Interjection) - Mr.

Chairman, I'm sorry I thought that we were here to examine the Minister's efforts, what they 're going to do, not what I did, but nevertheless the Minister now is suggesting, I suppose, by taking me through this particular path, that they have come up with a management instrument which will be more successful than that. By and large this is what the Conservatives were doing in Ontario by the way, Mr. Chairman.$ MR. SPIVAK: No they were not. Mr. Chairman, just for the matter of record ... MR. BOYCE: They have super Ministers . MR.

SPIVAK: They have super Ministers - if he knows the structure or if he understands the structure then he couldn't make that statement. MR. BOYCE: I beg your pardon. MR. SPIVAK: If you knew the structure in Ontario, you couldn't make that statement. The proposal is not what Ontario is operating under or what it was proposed to operate under. MR. BOYCE: Well anything is similar only to some degree, Mr. Chairman . I would accept what the Minister says is correct.

It's not exactly parallel · - they have super Ministers and I hear that they want to try and put in Manitoba too, clusters of I Ministers running particular component, but that isn't the point. What weakness existed and how is what you suggest or recommend going to aleviate that weakness? MR. SPIVAK: Is that question addressed to me? MR. BOYCE: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. SPIVAK: Oh well that's fine. No no there's no problem, I'll answer it.

But I'd like to go back if I could to one of the statements the honourable member made before with respect to the question of objectives; I think that he made a very important point. I think that one of the first things that the review teams did , and certainly one of the first things the Task Force did - and in our discussions with them - was an approach clearly to try and determine as they dealt with each departmental activity what their objectives were, and having defined that, to determine how they carried on their objectives. I think that's very important .

And , of course, what was found was that the objectives in many cases were defined; in a substantial number of cases they were not clearly defined. In those cases in which they were defined, the manner in which policy had been carried out, was fragmented, there was really an inability to evaluate other than through the procedures of the Management Committee and the Program Auditors Review which was the estimate process .

It was very difficult to do the kind of evaluation with respect to programs so as to be able to determine whether in fact those objectives were being met, and in many cases it took several years before there could be a final determinatio; this of course meant that a program could continue and did continue for a long time before changes could be made . What's proposed in the Central Management structure is the management information system 2381

Thursday, May 18, 1978 which is essential and important in a modern-day government which would not only provide the accounting information and deal with the costs up-to-date at any given time with respect to the programs.

As an example, if the Treasury Committee would meet on a monthly basis or a quarterly basis we'd have that information, but in addition to that, they would have program evaluation which would be available through the management information system that would be able to indicate the way in which they have achieved the targeted group whom they are trying to reach by whatever program is being evaluated . Now this becomes very essential, Mr. Chairman.

If in fact for a particular program 5,000 people are to be reached in a given year and the cost is $2 million and in effect, after a month, you spend $1 million and you've only reached a 1,000 people and that information is before you, you're then in a position to make some adjustments with respect to the original assumptions that wE!re made or the way in which the program has been conducted, or the potential loss of money in excess of what should have been spent to reach the targeted group . If on the other hand, Mr.

Chairman, you have devoted $2 million to a program that's supposed to reach five , and after a quarter of a period you have only spent $200,000 and you've reached 2,000 or 3,000 people, then obviously you over-budgeted and the adjustments could be made immediately to be able to apply those revenues that were going to be applied in one way to another way. And, that was lacking, I think, it's been lacking probably in most governments.

Its business, because the bottom line is profit, has to be able to operate that way, and what really is lacking and what was necessary is a change in which there would be a proper management information system which would provide not just the finanacial information which is essential for the operation of government to be able to know and to be able to make the adjustments that are re1quired if revenues alter or change; or if there 's needs for shifting from one place to the other, at the same time to be able to amend and alter those programs that have been agreed to, it being assumed that at the time the agreement is made that the target group of people who are to be served are known, that what the program is supposed to accomplish is known; and to the extent that it's able to be quantified and computerize that that information is available.

Now that was lacking, and what we've proposed here is an attempt to try and provide that central management within the structure of government. And we believe that this is necessary, an adjustment . I'm satisfied, and I've said this before, that the members opposite who were in governmt~nt really did not know the financial position of the government at the time of the election, nor did they know what the position was during the election .

There may have been some , but not all of them, for the simple reason that that information wasn 't as easily available as it should have been nor was it applied as it has to be applied against the total cost of government . So that there's a way in which you can evaluate from a financial point of view the financial position of government and, at the same time, be able to evaluate the programs of government. So the proposal we're making in this report , we think is important and in the long run will provide much better information for decision making on the part of government.

And we believE! as well that there was really a failure to achieve proper management by objectives in the last period of time and 1 have to say that to the member opposite . We found this over and over again. This, I think, was one of the common threads . They were not clear , in many cases, the policies were not known and they were assumed to be known or assumed on the part of the civil servants who really were simply prepared to execute what the government policy was and did it in best faitl1 on the assumption that that was the policy .

Again, in a proper management information system, recognizing there are changes in ministries and recognizing as well that emphasis change within government, that there would be a greater ability for control in that sense. MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister makes a statement that is totally erroneous, that the former government didn't know . I was one of the junior members of Cabinet and I knew . MR. SPIVAK: You knew what? MR. BOYCE: The financial position of the province. MR. SPIVAK: Well, is the financial position that we stated correct or not? MR. BOYCE: Incorrect. MR. SPIVAK : Oh, it's incorrect? MR.

BOYCE: That's right. MR. SPIVAK: What was it then? 2382

Thursday, May 18, 1978 MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr. Chairman, may I make a . . . MR. SPIVAK: No, no, because I think it's very valid, you know, because if you say that the financial position as you knew it . . . A MEMBER: Mr. Chairman, will you shut that man up for a minute please? MR. SPIVAK: Well, if you knew what the financial position was MR. BOYCE: Mr . Chairman, will you shut that man up please? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order . All right. The Member for Winnipeg Centre, you've got the mike now. MR. BOYCE: Thank you very much.

In all due respect to my friend, I appreciate personally the position that he's in but nevertheless - (Interjection)- the former Minister had access when they wanted to have accesss to anything they wanted to have access to. And the further statement is completely false , is the amount of time spent on Estimates, in going through. As a junior Minister, one of the things I did was sit hour after hour in Cabinet; the best way for me to learn what was going on in the other departments was to sit there and to go through budget reviews of the other departments and I know the hours that were spent in assessing those.

But nevertheless, Mr. Chairman , I agree with the Minister that it is difficult to manage any government because to put people in a position to manage a billion dollars, there's not very many human beings on the face of the earth that have the personal exper ience of managing a billion dollars . Everybody adjusts to over-budget, under-budget and all the rest of it. But let's put it in simple terms . The Minister of Health has said what the priorities or premise of this government is: cost first. What I want to know is how they evaluated programs.

Evidence .. is such that the government has backed off one particular program because they were worried about the immediate dollar in 1977. For an example, one of the cheapest ways of dealing with people who , for some reason or other , have to be removed from society under sanction of law, is to deal with them outside of a correctional institution if it is at all possible.

One of the programs that we had been moving towards was in Brandon where the people would not be kept in an institution per se but would be kept in a facility which, according to law, would be a correctional institution but according to program we'd be dealing with them as their fundamental problem which is relative to overindulgence in alcohol. But nevertheless, the government in immediate cost dollars , in their way of evaluating programs it says, " We don 't put out the dollars ." So it is this kind of premise which permeates this particular report . . . let me back up a bit.

Take for example the correctional institution in 'Brandon itself . I don't know what the cost is, I think it's $8 million. That particular building is going to last 100 years as the last one did so they want to put out the $8 million and charge that all against the appropriations for 1978-79 and 1979-80 as if we were spending that money all at once which isn't true . If people did their own financing in that particular way, everybody in the province would be broke. But, Mr. Chairman , I still haven't got an answer from the Minister as to how they have evaluated programs as far as cost efficiency is concerned .

I'll use another example . In a particular community in the province when everybody is working , there is no social unrest, there is no social disorder. But because of circumstances , a cutback of a particular program, all of the people who were involved in a particular project went on unemployment insurance so all they have to do is to go down and sit in the local pub , get half swacked, start hammering at each other and they end up in the hoosegow . I think it costs about $18,000 a year in 1979 dollars to keep a man in Headingley Jail.

When you 're evaluating programs, was this the way that the government looked at the programs , that far down the road? Just exactly how much they were saving in the final analysis or is it, as the Minister suggested in his long presentation, that all they're going to do is look at how much it costs in the first place. How many people they're serving? You know, if one one probation officer keeps one person out of jail a year , he's earned his salary .

That's the kind of analysis and I'm being very parochial, I know, but I have to speak from my own personal experience because I don't know what a billion dollars is either . But all of the billion dollars is made up of each particular person evaluating each particular program in the manner that I'm talking about because if that is not so, then I'm most concerned, Mr. Chairman, and what we're moving towards is a government of technocrats, that we're going to put technocracy into place and they 're going to run it. You know , that isn't what the people of the Province of Manitoba elected 2383

Thursday, May 18, 1978 the government for . MR. SPIVAK: Just on this point , I'd like to say that there is no disagreement with respect to what the honourable member is saying. I think that the input that we're talking about comes from those who have to make the decisions, whoever are charged with the responsibility at any given time within government. I acknowledege that ; I'm not quarrelling that that input , that decision making, that understanding has to occur .

All that has been suggested is - and I don 't think that you can use the word technocrats - all I'm suggesting is that there is a necessity to have valid information upon which those judgments are going to be made and that valid information has to come from a much more refined system than governments have been operating under in the past. That's what really is suggested. The problem in dealing with the immediate situation with respect to the present budget (

a) has to do with the question of whether the financial position was as serious as we suggested . The honourable members say it wasn 't; we say it was and we've made a number of steps consistent with that which you may or may not disagree with because you haven't accepted the original proposit ion but that has nothing to do with it. We've done it on t hat basis , recognizing we had to deal with the information system that was available and the departmental operations as they then existed with whatever recommendations we could provide for restraint. You can disagree or agree on it.

We made choices which you can agree or disagree with on and we can argue that - I'm not qua rrelling that. But leaving all of this aside and assuming that we're in a position to ultimately implement what was recommended if those recommendations are accepted , the time can come when those who are in government would have the kind of technica l information in an information system which is updated to provide it so that in effect when they do make the decisions , they can make them in the same way as you have, but that it's much more detailed .

If you free those and you said a certain Minister is responsible for administration as opposed to line departmental functions , and you set up a Treasury Comm ittee which , in effect, can act as a committee dealing with this on a monthly basis and can evaluate that, then I thi nk you're in a better position to make the decisions that have to be made because all government will be doing is making decisions in any case. They affect everyone .

Those decisions have to be made with understanding and compassion and the realization that the facts themselves don 't necessarily mean anything, you 're dealing with human beings and you're dealing with the ultimate effects of government with respect to them . So that I think you can achieve what you have talked about as an objective if something along the lines of what we talked about is adopted , which is a modernization of government.

But the problem we had for this year - and I'm now speaking as a Minister as ... because I've sat on Cabinet and on Management Committee and not as a person on the Task Force - the problem we had this year was to meet the immediate need of applying the restraint as we believed it to be necessary - which you may not have believed to have been necessary and you can argue that - in a way which would be able to deal properly with the information we had with the objectives that had been stated, with our understanding of how the programs had operated .

That debate will continue and you will be able to judge whether those results were good or not in months to come . MR. BOYC E: Mr . Chairman , just in rising , in all the Ministe r said he used one expression which shows his inability to cope with such problems . He said " valid information" . That's an erroneous use of terms . It's reliable information on which you base valid judgments . MR. CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen , in accordance with Rule 19(2) the hour of 4:30 having arrived, it's Private Members' Hour.

But I'm led to believe that Private Members ' Hour may be very short and if so we'll be back in committee if we can assemble a quorum.1$ SUPPLY - HEALTH AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Abe Kovnats: I would direct the honourable members to Page 37, Health and Social Development. We are on Item (eX1) Salaries, $209 ,300. (eX1)-pass - the Honourable Member for St. Boniface . MR. DESJARDIN S: It's not passed though . Mr.

Speaker, before we start may I ask the Minister, I believe he'd agreed to provide us with the list of permanent , term, contract - well not necessarily the contract - part-time people with 2384

,.. • Thursday, May 18, 1978 vacancies as to a certain date and if at all possible broken down by divisions, I wonder if we can have that . May I say at this time also that we would expect, we will make the same request when we deal with the Manitoba Health Services Commission. So I hope that we'll be able to get that. In fact, if at all possible, I wouldn't mind receiving the information before we start dealing with the Manitoba Health Services Commission . I think we could save time if we do that.

And just to remind again the Minister, I think that I'd suggest that we get a copy of the Registry of Children's Residential Facilities that I would find quite interesting . There's no rush for that. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, we are dealing now with Personnel Management Services . First of all I wonder if it's the same . I'll take it, unless the Minister contradicts me, that here again was an area that last year the Minister felt that we should cut down on the staff. I think he had said that seven or eight should do the work and I see that he's requesting, I think, it's 14, yes.

So I guess that this is an area again that the Minister said that once he was saddled with the responsibility he has learned and realized that these people are doing some work . But I see that one of the questions that I have is that last year - and I still don't understand that fully - I felt that we had had $255,000 approved and here it states $248,000 . But my question is why this approximately $40,000 to $50,000 reduction this year, if there is a staff of only one, a reduction of a staff of only one, where are they going to save that kind of money? I don't know . I'd like to know.

Now this is the area, this is the personnel in the department that does the recruitment, recruiting, the evaluation, reclassification, reassign and the training of the personnel. One thing that concerns me is the Task Force felt that there should be a rollback here and this should be done outside of the department or directly with the director of the special division. I think that the Minister might realize now and might agree with me that this might be very difficult to do.

Now in the Annual Report of the department on Page 4, I think , or 5, it's stated that there was as of December 3, 1976, 4,500 staff man years; and in December 3, 1977, the staff man years were cut down to 3,694 and that was a reduction of 806. Now I've always claimed that we were watching the restraint also and we weren 't filling all the vacancies; and I think this is an indication . Of course, December is a month or so after the new government took effect but I think that even then they didn 't fire 806 people in the month between then .

So I think that some of the credit , if anything, if this is credit should go to the former administration. And then the vacant position is also . . . I was probably given the information that I wanted . Now I'll have to study this. But in the first paper that we received, the vacant positions as of March 31st were 206. That was March 31st . I believe that around October or so the vacancies must have been higher than that . I haven't had a chance to look at this . Does this include the contract people, the information that I was just given today, is this contract people also?

I haven't looked at it at all, as you can understand. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. SHERMAN: I wasn't sure whether the honourable member wanted an answer to that specific question separately. What has happened is, we have shown the vacancies. The vacancies of course do not apply to the contract positions because there 's no vacancies where contract positions are concerned . MR. DESJARDINS: No, I mean the information you gave me today , this added information, that deals with contracts . I haven 't had the chance to look at it. MR.

SHERMAN: No, it deals with vacancies in permanent positions, as I understand it. MR. DESJARDINS: Well , Mr. Chairman, the request that I made about a month and a half ago, what I think is a reasonable request, in fact it was the same request that the Conservative Party or the opposition of last year made to me. I can quote you the page in Hansard, in fact it was the now Premier , and what I wanted was the following information : The permanent, term, contract, part-time and vacancies.

Now, that was approved in 1977-78, what it was around November 1, 1977, and then on April 1, 1978, or what was requested at this time , and broken down . In fact, when we gave the information last year, we broke it for the division for the then Leader of the Opposition, and 1 would hope that we can have that. I think most of that information was given in other departments , and I don't think that we can compare apples with oranges; I don't think that this is going to help at all. I'm very interested in getting the whole picture of the staff, the staff may even be contract people 2385

Thursday, May 18, 1978 and so on, because I agree, at times there were some people on contract that shouldn 't have been there ; I agree. And I want to see what was done on that. Of course, I also say that it could be a big mistake if this government , and this is as good a place to say it as any - if this government is going to decide that they 're not going to have any contract people at all, I think that this is going to be a big mistake. I think that it is good to check it once in a while , to make sure that it's only contract people .

For instance , the Mincome people were specialists , they were brought in to do a certain work with the understanding that when that work was finished, they were gone . And I think that if you have certain priorities in that department, as well as any department, but even more so in this department - let's say that it might be in what , in fighting VD, or anything like that - you might get a certain specialist and so on that you wouldn't want to keep when this work is done , that you wouldn 't necessarily have to guarantee a job and try to realign or red-circle .

I think that that's what the problem is, but I certainly would hope that the government is not going to go to the other extreme and decide that they 're not going to hire any contract people at all, because I think this will be a detriment to the people of Manitoba . I'll have to take this home during the dinner hour to see if the information that I wanted is all there . Mr. Chairman , I figure that I've been on trial here as a member of a former government. I've been on trial with the now government being the accuser, the judge and jury.

I've been told that there would be many horror stories; I've been told that we had too many staff man years; we have way too many civil servants , and I've been told that I, with the rest of my colleagues, could not run a peanut stand , and have been responsible for certainly mismanagement , and that there was an awful lot of fat that should be cut from this department.

Now , looking at the figures , even the figures of my honourable fnt; nd, that I was looking at yesterday - and I know that that could be wrong - but even looking at that , I think that the staff of the department are the staff man years that I requested last year, although these positions were not all filled and what we're requesting this year is approx imately the same thing .

I have heard the Minister also say that he had agreed with all the programs in this department , except I think that he mentioned one, which actually I must take the responsibility , if the responsibility has to be taken , but only collectively , not as the Minister responsible , because Corrections was another department in those days , and I think that he was talking about the Alcoholism Foundation and so on, that that was one department that he didn't hear .

So I really would like to hear , sincerely, if the Minister has found that there has been so much mismanagement in that department , there 11as been way too many civil servants, and if many of these programs then were mismanaged .

And if there is that much - I'm not talking about now, I understand that the Minister has stated many times that the main thing that he would like to do more, in fact, we were talking about the hearing testing centres and he said that he agrees with me that that should be a high priority but that the priority of his government was to start with the cost and then see what the need would be.

So therefore, this is not what I want to argue at this time , but I would invite the Minister at this time to show me what if there was that much mismanagement , if there was that much excess baggage , and then if there is so much fat , if he feels there is that much fat to cut. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman , first of all, let me try to get a couple of matters straight on which there appears to be some misunderstanding in one respect , and cert ainly a very valid mistake pointed out in another .

The honourable member referred to Page 5 of the Annual Report and the numerals shown there for the difference in the department's payroll in December 1977 as against December 1976. I compliment him on his sharp-eyed criti cism; there 's obviously a mistake in those numbers , Mr . Chairman; I'll have to get the correct numbers for him . But it's not logical that there should be a difference of what is more than 800 personnel. He's absolutely right ; it's obviously a typographical error in the Annual Report and I'll have to get him the correct figure on that.

With respect to the details of the approved staff complement and the member 's request with respect to vacancies in contract people, I thought that in the three pages that I sent over to him on Tuesday that his question was being answered. The first two pages show the approved staff complement in terms of staff man years for three succeeding years, including the present one . They show the vacant positions cumulatively and then on Page 3 we show program by program , the staff employed under contract as at March 31 , 1976, 1977 and 1978 - on Page 3 of the three pages that I sent over to him on Tuesday . MR.

DESJARDINS: I never noticed the third page. I am sorry. Oh, it's on this one here; is this 2386 ..

· .. .. Thursday, May 18, 1978 the same thing? MR. SHERMAN: Yes. I think the information that the honourable member wanted is there. He can check . But my understanding, and my official 's understanding of his question on Tuesday, would in our view seem to be answered by the information contained in those three pages and specifically on Page 3 where staff employed under contract is concerned . Now, the information that we passed over to him this afternoon shows vacancies on a program by program basis, and of course those relate to staff other than contract staff, obviously.

If that isn't the desired information then I'll have to exchange notes with the honourable member again, but I hoped and felt that that answered his questions in that area. I'll leave that with him for the moment, Mr. Chairman. In terms of the total establishment of the branch, this particular branch, and the member's reference to the fact that there were 14 staff man years shown for 1978-79 and that represents no change from the figures shown for 1977-78. That's correct in the superficial printed sense but there are three vacancies in that complement and there's no intention, Mr. Chairman, to fill them .

That would explain in part the discrepancy, or the apparent discrepancy as it strikes the Honourable Member for St. Boniface , in the line having to do with Salaries under the breakdown of this particular vote. The honourable member referred to a recommendation in the Task Force Report relative to this particular branch and the desirability of where this kind of work should be done, in-House or outside. I would have to give him the same answer on this that I gave him the other evening with respect to the Task Force recommendations .

We simply haven't had time as a government, Sir, and I have not had time as the steward of this department to assess those many Task Force recommendations with any degree of competence or with any degree of intensity. We haven't had the time as yet. My mind is open on virtually every one of the recommendations in the Task Force Report and I would welcome opinion from persons like the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, who have had experience in this department , as to the validity of some of those recommendations. So that is in the area of subjects that still has to be considered by the government.

I presume I'll have some responsibility for bringing in an opinion, and by the time I've worked through my Estimates and done a few more months' work with officials of my department, I would hope that my opinions would be crystalizing with respect to a lot of those recommendations . But they're not entirely crystalized yet . The honourable member referred to horror stories and mismanagement . I think I would have to say that those terms are his, or if they're not his they 're at least somebody else's.

I have not applied or used the term "horror stories" or "mismanagement" to the Department of Health and Social Development to my knowledge . In fact I would say for the record that I inherited an extremely well run and well staffed department. I have had, as I suggested in my opening remarks, a tremendous backup and support from that department in trying to acquaint myself with the many responsibilities that it shoulders. I don 't feel myself in a position to answer definitively the member's question about fat, excess personnel. I would doubt that there is a significant amount of it to be found.

We are attempting to rationalize costs and spending in the way that seems to us is usually the most practical and sensible way to do it, by zeroing in on levels of administration that might be redundant or that might involve duplication; that might involve some unnecessary expenditure while attempting to preserve programming and services - that 's an ongoing exercise - and we may find some positions. indeed we have found a few, and I've referred to three in this branch , that are vacant which are not targeted for refilling. We may find a few positions that are not necessary and therefore can be phased out.

Indeed , there are strenuous efforts being made by the directors of my different directorates and branches, to achieve if possible - particularly in the Community Operations Division - a 10 percent vacancy rate which was a target not unfamiliar to the previous Minister and the previous government. I believe they were striving for the same kind of a vacancy rate .

Now if it becomes demonstrable that that kind of a rate can be achieved without significant effect on quality of service or programming, then presumably over the course of the next year or two those positions would be phased out on a permanent basis and the establishment would thus be reduced by that percentage . That does not represent in my view necessarily a discovery of a great layer of fat. It is a decision that has been concurred in and assisted by the directors of the different directorates and branches in the department themselves who obviously feel that there are some management innovations, 2387

Thursday , May 18, 1978 applications that can be invoked in a period of restraint that are justifiable . In a more affluent time perhaps the work would be spread around more . But we're not in an affluent time at the moment and the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, I'm sure , would be doing precisely the same thing were our positions reversed because I think he was striving for that kind of a rationalization of size of staff himself .

So all I can say in response to him is, that the department appears to me, if it helps him in his position , to have been effectively led and effectively run - I don 't think I ever criticized his leadership or his management of the department. I hope and trust that a Progressive-Conservative government, through some Minister of other - perhaps not me - but through some Minister or other can do it better . That doesn 't say he didn't do it well. As far as the general staff question is concerned I would just add , Mr.

Chairman, that most of the staff that we're looking at in a department like this, as the honourable member well knows , are in institutions and we're not reducing institutional staff significantly at all. So I can 't stand here and say to the Honourable Member for St . Boniface , "Look you overloaded , overpacked your department. There are great savings that can be made in terms of reduction of personnel , reduction of staff man years ," because that was not the case . I think it was an efficiently administered department. I respect the efforts that the honourable member made as steward of that department .

I just prefer that I have the job rather than he has the job , that's all. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman , first of all I would like to say to the Minister that - and I don 't know if there was a mistake , I didn't get the third page , or of course it was the only copy and I passed it around and somebody might have taken it - but anyway he is absolutely right. With the added information that I have today I have practically everything . I say practically because there is something else I would like to have . I would like to have the vacancies .

You give us the vacancies now and they're broken down as of March 31st , 1 977 and then March 31st , 1978. Normally this is all I would need but because of the change of government and because of the change of ministers , I would like to have it as of October , because I think that the vacancies should have been higher , as far as I was concerned ; because I know that I only filled the positions that I felt that I had to do. It was recommended to me by staff that it had to be done . We were on the Restraint Program also and we were cutting down on the vacancies . So if I can have this information I'd be ready .

Now , Mr. Chairman , I certainly welcome the personal remarks of the Honourable Minister . I wasn 't looking for praise but nevertheless , Mr.

Chairman, it is true that this Minister and myself have not had too many exchanges or too many throwing insults at each other, but the Minister stated last year that collect ively he had to accept that he was part of a team , and I also am certainly as good a team player, and I consider that I was part of a team , and it might be true that this particular Minister didn 't make these accusations , but others did , especially the First Minister , and this is what I resented very much .

Because I can endorse everything that the Minister is saying and I think it should be like that , that he should want to do the job better than I did , and I hope that the next Minister, regardless of what party he belongs to , I hope that every new Minister will do that much better than the other. And I think that this is the only way that it can be done , and I think everybody will profit.

There are certain things that a Minister wants to do and he can 't do; it will take him a while to sow the seed , to get the thing going, and there are certain things I hope that I've done that will benefit the present Minister , that I hope that he will do the same thing to whoever replaces him, including maybe a member from this side .

But it has been said repeatedly by the Minister of Finance , there has been this scare, and I exclude the present Minister , but he himself had pointed out to me that he was part of the team and we were responsible for whateve r our party did , in this case , the goveinment and the opposition in my case . And this is why I ask this question , because there is no doubt that the Minister of Finance and the Premier of this province had promised to give us - I think it was one a day - a horror story ; the First Minister said that none of us could run a peanut stand .

The Premier has said that the programs would not be cut at all, but they would be more effective, they would be run better , because we didn 't know what we were doing. Now, I'm kind of pleased - I came in today, Mr. Chairman , ready for a fight or ready to co-operate , and I'm kind of pleased that the Minister is being non-partisan , and again, I'm going to do everything I can to co-operate with him , and there are certain a

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-45a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 45a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	066a8e63c9e85d40c8651828fd48e5a61072adf1

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).