P?.ELI:.!INARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3;00 ?·m- -6:00p.m . FRIDA£, DECEMBER 7. 1979 xu. 4 6

UrCer, ?lease! S1AT!::l·fr.:-iTS 3 Y c-!I:·iiSTEf.!:i ':...1.e ~1on. :'!inis1:er of i..a.nC.s anc. ?orest:s. :·lR. J. .•!ORGAN : :·1r. Speaker, I would like to inform t,le .~.~ollse a£ A..:;sen:....;ly 1:.~1e develo_t.nten-:.s t:~at are no~· t~~ng ~lace i:l ~able loq<;ins technolosy in this ?rovince. 'Ihe fact is that ll per cent o:f the total ~erc.1.ant<Wle till".ber in our Provine e is on slopes greater . than 3o per cent .· . .-er t.:1e t'ast years it :.us been impossible to i:J.arvest b.1is tir..loer.

It is being recognized now that an effective method 'of harvGs-cing chis wood is .:ssential and •e are to realize all the ;..enefits of our forest resource it n,ust ~e .:.~.arvesteG.. ~-ly depar't!r.t!nt has been carrying out a prograr::rr:.e of stee~ slope loggi••S to develop and introC:uce an efzicient rr:eti1od of ~1arvesting tiL~er on ~1.ese stee~ slofes. Cable i.vgging i1as of:!:.::reC. -::.u~ nest solution toward the narvesting ~f steep slopes.

Field trial~ ~ave proven it is an econoll'ic and enviroruren tally viable r:.e taoci of ;;arvesting. ca:..:e logging tr.a~l1iue.ry !Ne C!ave use C. to date has been wan.ufactured in Euro~e, OOwever, we are nO"t in -cne process . as a result of our aw·n iniati ves in t~1is Province and takin:; .30m2 l12adershitJ,even to be recosnizecJ.,£or exa~ple, ;:J.'C a recent rr.e~ting uf t:u.~ type, of nar..r~sting tirr~er,in seactle, ir-~ t:ll~ States,t.:1a.t . .;~ are nc~·. to tne puin~ wh.ere we are going to rnanufactur~ the cable legging ~acnine:5 re~ u.i.rS:C!..

Ant.o. as a ~~sul'!: of !: .• ra.t,I arr. ;lt.:a.:te~ co this case since it is :.ne first one in our Province is being cost s~ared witn.

--------- ---- ;:~r.e ;,ei.ng mcllluiac l::Jre<i ?rovJ..nce · ... ·here .... -e coul....i ;:eve :.- ~ ~- fore ~ larv~s~ ~ i :te hon . rr.emcer =or i.i~dso:; - 3uc.~ans . the statement but in view of the loack of courtes:,r of tne rdniste.t to !lave a copy of the stater.ene Oh, oh! Order, p"-ease! In vie..- of t.'l.e obvious lad< of courtesy, I would even say decency 1 to have .a st:otte~rer.t ll'.ade availa::.le 1 I will refuse cor.ltlent on that particular statement. SOME HON. MEk2ERS : Hear, hea+! I withhold any comment until we get a chance 1:0 see the statement r.-.d persue it, sir. -r:.1e I:Li.nister is uot wort..ly of COII.roE!nt · • .... r:.:_:.:...:~:

!:ape No . ..i.68 NM - 1 Ol!AL QUESTIONS: The hon. Leader of the Opposicion. Thank you very much, Mr • Speaker. In the absence of the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry), may I direct my question to the hon._ the Premier?

In view of two announcements yesterday with regard to the export of natural gas to L~ United States, plus the fact. that the Minister of Energy, Mines an.d Resources of Canada, and the Prime Minister. has indicated. a very tight situation this coming Winter, especially in Eastern Canada, could the Premie:r indicate whether there are intergovernmem:al negotiations underway on this issue at this present time? Is -there a committee or is there some group that is keeping us advised and do we have any definitive in.format..:..on: sn: tilis time? l'!R.

S?'EA!<SR: ?REHIZR !'EC:<E'ORO: The hon. the Premier. do no~ nave any Ce~iniciv e in forma~on ava ilable =ight: r..;,w. Th.e ~ e ~e ta.L\s going on bet-,.,een Ene=gy, Mines and Resou;rces, ;>eop te on t..'1.e !fa t:.ional ::."lerc;:v Board and . .,l. :1 "-"'-e Deparunent o :: ·•.i..'1es ana E:ne~gy. We were : or-.:u.'lat:·e abou-.: a '!e= o r so ago to br ing_ on staff one ~rson who had ome ezo m the ~ational Ene~ gy 1 s pret~y well versed 1:1 ~~e ~ho le su~ply anC. d emand S.l. tua tion i...-. Canacia -yea ,in or~h ~er-e a -and is recogniz~d as such , Mr. ?or ~e r .

Nhc l.S i ': '? a :1at..J.ve of Grand ~'.llls o r i;;i.n .c.lly . So he has go t h;:., ::.:.nqer 0:1 clta.c ~icuabor. ane we ;.re ::.n a.lmosc ::!aily r.ow:;h '""-t.h SJeogl<!. !Joc.b. in ~:le.:gy, :-.t.l.!les and :teso •Jrces .anC the :-lac. ona.l ::n:e::.-gy Boa..rC, but. ! do :1-.:>t t.a.ve a."\yt.:ll.nq .:e.: ni;:i.v e.. As tsr ..1.s I ·.m:cie-r·st:a..r."td i~ , ::-o~ =! !a;-:. s:..=.u.ac.icn but ::: is fe e t..~a:--c we '.olil.l b~ able :.o ... et by JJ'1. .... hou1: any

Tape :-!o. l6 a4 NM - 2 !'R&'1IER P.ECKFO!ID: yesterday on the export of gas and so an and perhaps the slow down on the Q ~ ~ pipeline - I do not know what the position of the Maritime Provinces will ~e on it. Of course, the Q and :o:l would not be of that significance to us even thou<rh in some of the proposals, I do not know if the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) saw them or not, they had this ship coming into Stephenville or Port aux Basques or Corner Brook and then starting a pip.eline across the Province. MR. RO:aERTS: Back hauling; are they not?

PREMIER PECY.F<JRD : Now, 'because of Sable , and because of Hibernia, _Ernie Needleson and some of the boys from the Canadian Petrolelllll Association are saying, "Let us go slow for six mon-ths to see what kind of thing comes out of Sable Island or off Newfoundland." But as I understand it to this moment, from our talks , .. i th the NEB and the Energy, Mines and Resources people, and our_ own analysis of it, · it is tight but we c-.n tide ourselv~s by.

We have spoken to and P.ad fairly extensive talks with 0'1 tramar, I did my~elf on one occasion ab.out five and a half or six weeks ago now, and the Minister of Energy did follow up meetings two or three times on the whole supply situation as it ~elated specifically then on how tbey perceive this bill for Newfoundland. And that is sort of the bottom line on that. I will see what information now the Minister of Energy has in the last week or so, because I have not been that close to it. MR. SPE.AlCSR: ·123-1

December 7, 1979 Tape 1085 ?!< - 1 i·!R. SPEAl<ER (SI.l-IMS) : ~~e hon. Leader of the 0pposition. MR. JAMIESON: I have a first supplementary with regard to the immediate future, that is, the coming Winter.

Since it was indicated yesterday that there is not in fact in place, first of all,a rationing plan, if you wish, or an apportionment plan nationally which •NOuld be reaqy to be executed in the event that there 'N'ere some unexpected situation- and I think in the world situation we ha,re today, we have to go on ~e assumption that the unexpected is what is to be expected- What I am wondering about, and I am wondering if the Premier has any L"ldication or does the Government of Newfoundland., for instance, that is, within the Province of Newfoundland itself have a distribution or a control plan or something of the nature which would ensure (

a) for example, ·~~t there was not hoarding; secondly, that all parts of the Province in the event of even a tight situation ar~ treated fairly? How does this' interrelate w~th any national plan that there might be? How far has progress !:Jeen made, because, I think, the Premier would agree that given the kind of news we were hearing that unquestionably we ought to be in a position to know what we will do in the event that, let ~s say, the worst happens, while hoping that it will not? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER PEC!<FORD: Yes. I can make two comments on that, Mr. Spec.ker.

One is on the mtional sort of scene, I think the Nc>.tional Energy Board report is released today on the whole situation. So I have not been privy to •..-hat they are about to say, although speculatior.. has it chat i~ is supposed tc ~e ra~~er ~~ant. We have, I remember even a year or a year and a half ago in the Dep'l.rtr.\ent of Energy, identified and kno~. The distribution system in Newfoundland now is pretty good as it relates to he~ting oil and that kind of thin,. because you have places l~ke Port Saunders, or wherever,where they have thei= own tanks and so on ,in Sot'N'Ood and all around.

So we know '"here the distri1:.ution systeM ~.:..es. And most of those places 3-re filled for the ~~inter now, :::e~ause the smaller tankers from Irving, or whoever, move in. :here 1 1.ll1load ·1235

Jece~~er 7, 1979 ~ape lOSS p.!( - 2 ?renller .?ec k::ord: and so on. So ~;e d~ s~i-~~ion sys~em is ?re~cy clear and •t~e ~ve -3. good iJ:!ea of i ::, and know where all oi the tanks are, and ·t~het.'ler ':!ley are full or half fall or l!liiP~Y or wl'.at:.. And .:..: i s on the eas~s of tha~ t.~t we can say w~.:h some degree of confidence ::hat:. ::ile.re is a ::au amoum::, unless you ; e~ a real cold nin cer and a >~hole buncb of other ~11i!lgs happen, whic h are somewhac Wllil<e l y.

So we know i 1: from 1:ha~ ?Oin~ o f v~ew as i c ::elaces espec~ally co =:eat:.ing oil and the dis=l.bucion system ::hat r.as been devel o?ed by t:he ?::.:.vace sec~ or over che ? er.:.oC., and f::om ou.r ::.all<s as ::~y rela -c:a co t:he reiinery, a~ ?n !Jl t.ramar '"e bave a :ai :: ide a . So we are L'l a posit:.ion t:o be able to be co sa y at:. a very short:. noc.:.ce what:. the scory is anywhere L'l the ?:"evince. SOI1E RON . !1£..'\G.ERS : Ob, oh! 123-6

_ .. ~~-1 r. sup!)leiDentar.t. ':':le ~en. LeaCer of ':~.~ C?r:csi t.i.on. Mr. Spea~er, on t~e longer range, t~~n, could I asl: t...~e Pr~nier •.-rhet:O.er in ,,ie'~T of the anncuncer.'!ent y~stezC.ay- ~C.

I must say ! ·,.,as a bit su~rised that it ~roulC come \/!"len it did '•rith regard to tl'1e gas exports but that is beside tile point in ':he nature of rr:y cuestior{_ •..ras that exclusiYely a pec'eral government c'e~ision or >ras there interprQvincial consultation on t."'!e merits or ot.'J.erwise given all of the economic ramifications? ! will leave asic'e whether t."'!ey are good, bad or indifferent ~ut vras there .i.n fact consultation >ri.t.'l. the provinces and if there was could the ?remier indicate what the position of t.~e r~vernment of ~1ewfoundl<m<l was with regard to this very substantial c."'!ange in export pollcy on ~as? ' '!L SPFJI.YE?.' P~~IF:R PE~FOPD!

The hen. ~~e ?r~ier. I do not know if ir. the last co~ple of cays :~. :1nat:rshyn has been talking to our c~m ~linister of ~·!ines anc'.

Fnergy, !-:ut '.<7e have over the past ye'ar or :so put tor"f.•TarC. at :.~ational F:nergy Board t.earings as well as in talks that we have ha<:' .,,i th :;:~,rgy1 ~'!ines and F.esources at the Deputy ~inister and M.ssistant Det:uty ~ir.ister 1evel 1 our position as it relates to gas exports 1:c t."te Unitec' States '~hi.ch were in the direction that t.'l.e federal governl"ent has qone. '?ut I think they have gene tn a far more su.bstatl.c.ial ••ay anc I think that is 9e:!'~=.p-;; '"'here h!OS"t. of the argument is '?"Oina to ~cP'e in ~';e ccf11inc; days as to ':he question of t::e amonnt of ti·. ~ ~xport.

Sc t;e ':-.av~ t~er. :--rese!"lti:1a our ;csi tic·n ~ott t~rC'~cl-: :?:nC'1:' t~.e rri!'!iste~s a~O ~ore sp~!cifically in ::.~arinqs t:--.at t~,·~ ~ave at~e.nCeC in -:·'hie~ ·~-e :-1.3.ve ~ut f~r.o~arC a positicn a:;; it relacc1 to sooe e;xpor-c of ·l2:J'7

.~P-2 t~an t.b.e kind cf 't:ay the?.~ ! •.·.rauld preceive 1:s goinC"' at our own point i:1 tirr.e anC. !"lave sor-te c!':eckoffs syste!!'.S in pJ.acP., after an eicehteent..I-J. r-ont..I-J. ;;;eriocl check it off and have t~e ;?oHer ':o eit~er inc::ease or decrease. MR. JAMIESON: A.'ld swap. PRE~I~R ?ECKFOR~: And swapping.~fuilst naA it seems t..'l.at you are at a mixi!nurn or. a !l'inimum ,whichever you >~i'.nt to call it, and t..'J.e only "ay you· car. go from t.'l.ere is even further and not ~P.~TEARY: 1>. supplerrentary o:uestion, !1r.Speaker. A supplementary.

The ~on. member for !.aPoile,follC~>red by the ~on. mell'!:ler for Grand Bank. ~'.R. !TEARY' : I am not quite clea::, ~r. ~peaker, in t.l-Je !'render's ans.1er as to •.ffiether or not this gove=ent agrees with a gas pipeline to Eastern Canada. It •,;-oulc seem to me from the Pr'!!!llier' s remarks there a few moments ago t..'lat t.."le governrrent ~. er~ is in a state of inrlecision.

Although t..'ley a~prove the Government of .rannc1a 1 s !'olicy cf exporti!\q mor~ natural gas to tl-.e rTniteC ~tates, t~e qove~.~nt here ~as not taken a 9osition on t~e 9i~e!in~. ! rear.' the paper that was ;:resented. at t..he 'lational l':nergy 3oarc~ ar.c! it seems to L"!e that t.~e frovincial ·?CVe~e~,t clr,uc1P.d the issue a ~it by sa:_1ing, Well,'·~'c v.=e not particul.:1r.!.y i:1.te!'esteC ir. t...';,e ~as :=-·i?~line; ~,! are ~ore inter~sted in developing hyd:=-o slec"tri .:;.!. t~r in ·12~8

------ :ape· 1007 ?.C - l :·!:i\. :-iE;J<Y: ~s~ the Premier, in view of ~is answer, Would no~ a pipeline in ~as~ern Cana~a work both ways? In the even1: ~~at. seven or eignt or i:en years down the road, ·,..re did discover gas offshore, could we not send it back the o~,er way? So should not this ?rovinca come out i n full support of a gas pipeline of which Newfoundlanders would get the advantage for the next seven or eight or ten years while we are '"aiting, if we ever discover natural gas offshore? They would have the advantage of cheap energy now and ~,en later on, maybe, we could put our gas in the pipeline.

I would like to ask t.'J.e ?remier to comment on that matter. :·!R. SPE.N<ER.: (Simms) The non. the Minister of runes and Energy . t1R. BARRY: "tr. Speaker, if I might, the Premier has indicated that if ~,e hen . member wishes, I can respon~ to ~•e c;:uestion. This Province does not oppose the extension of a natural gas pipeline to the ~·laritime Provinces provided it does not artificially distort ~~e energy picture in ~a~tern Canada ·..,.it., :::espect t:o ~,e pricing of energy.

If a gas pipeline delivers gas co ~,e ~aritimes at a subsidiz~d rate ~hich would artificially bring energy costs in ~,e Maritimes below what they might: be in Newfoundland, then this could damage ~ewfo~~dland industry in its c~mpeti~iven~ss, it could make it mere difficult for Newfoundland to develop other energy sources such as, specifically, our ~lyC.ro-electrici t.y. '!'h.c consumers ·..,culd get ci~~ a.::iv2.n tac:e. ':he consume~s in ~1e Ma.=-i ~i:r:e Provi.:1ces wo•1.id get c.'le advantage, ;out the ~xtension of the ges pepeline, itself is :1ot going ~o ":lelp :let..;foundlar.t:i.

Alt:,.ougl1 some oi ~ .. ae ~roj~ct.s :1ave ·1233

:::c - 2. :-1.R. BAR.'-Y: Well, really, it does not ap!?ear c.o \lS to ::,e a ::eas.i.ble proposition to bring gas in when 1~e have our hydro­ electricity in Labrador whic.."' really should be developed. So two things can happen, ei~~er gas will be brought in at competitive market rates - and that is well and geod; .then our hydro-electricity can :Oe developed on a competitive basis, or if ~'1ere is a subsidy for bringing in a gas pipeline to t.:,e Maritimes, there should be an equivalent subsidy provided to this Province. :1R. :ffiAR:!: MR. SPEAI<ER: (Simms) Mr. Speaker, a final sup!?lementary. A supplementa.-y, 11240

':' :. ... :2. :~a. l.G.J-5 :::J - l the ~~on ... :.&.!...e: fo~ .:..aPoile .. ?r~-:'.i=r ~0 tel.l :lS t:OW ro~hlat i.S :1.ap~enir..g in CO!'I •. .tleCt.l.On ·..:it~ ~·ja!:lanex, tl1e ~-.1qe stor,:a..se facil.i ~fe:s o;rer th.ere on 3ell Island i.:1 ~:i.e abandoned Bell Island mine? (inaudible) Yes 1 d.nd the.::. ,;aba.nex -.leciC.ed ~o ;o out of btisir.ess .. ~·/hac is ;1ap_~ening :1o-w? ;._r; ~1e govermtent going =.o allow a new cc...-npany to carry c.a with all t!':.e benefits and t!e .:oncessions ~"lat :.:.1ey hi4ve over t...'-ler~,incl..lC.i.r..'; tha de-'2p ;,·Tater Port, you. k.r.c~~-, o:::- will -:.he government no~· cancel t.~e ~ic;;~1ts fo_r :;abd~e.:-= a:1.d. tr~i to gat .somel:ody else i1t1:eresteU ir~ 5tcrins; large ;:'Jandti<!s of oil or. 3ell Island? war~{: =.n~ 3ffor~ ~a-c t:1.ey ~1avc f..~Ut into tni.s ~rcj~ct, t.he la~se 3.!'.:0;.!ntz of .noney t:1e7 nave Si?ent in brir..gi.n.g t~1e~r jiroposal to t.lt:: f=a.si::,ilit~i st2.ge \"~'here t...1.e.y actually Uu3.c..e a prop~sa.l tc ~Lt:: tllis ~.ousi: for _;: ...... ~: ·.·C'.~. '?..

S?~-~A?": R: -· •1241.

SD - ~ .'::9.. I.. THO~'.S: concerns tha, ~01P shoo-ting range ·, .. ;I)I ... .:.:~r \w.!.'.::"li.:~ :=ar..ge, ;.nd they wou.ld ;et ~·it.."'~i..r. :::-ang~ ::eca.usc the ~ea. i.;; :lOt f-enced.. ~·!y <illes"t.ion to l:be President of t:le ~ounciJ.. i.::i ~1is, v-;ill t!'le Pr;si.:ient of t..."-te Collnci.l :_:1C:ertake to ~ave t:..e .)et..J.rt=.~n:t of Justice inll'estigatc ~1.is· ~~tar ~r.ec.!iatel7. And I =~ean i.tia~eciiatel:r! I~ is not .;;orL~et..l-ting t:1at c.;:...J. ;,;ait u.r..cil ~lonc1::...y 1}242

- 1 if Mr. Folinsbee's allegations are fo~•d to ~~ =orr.;ct., will ~~is rifle ra.t:.~..: ;..e closed until it is ~~aC:.e ;Safe o~ ill'~t.il it i.:i .:-~aveC. to a.not.L1er ~a cation? ;.;R. C. ?C'.;.O:R: l-1r. Speake::. ~~- C. FO·uER: :tr.

Speaker, ~~e state~ent yesterday on OC ~d also in t.!1.:.s mornii"S • s ~ailf .i ews relating to t h e F.C:.-iP shootinr; range down in the P l easantville area aai> C"-U.Sed SO!l'.e concern 't:.y parents an<i Ly .;>ersons living in ~le area. <.o<.ever, :;: :•ave to say t."1at t."1e cooce~s seems to l:.e ver.t n;ucn unfou..~ded. '!'he i?.C: .l~IP s~ooting range ;las ~een a~proV'ed ~Y ~1e ~·1P lJersons w·ho are profe3sionals in the fie.'i..d. of not only rifle and firearm usage !Jut als.o in hu.'lter sa:fet:i.

It \as ~een ~1ecked out by our ~irector of nunter Safety, it has ~een c~eci:ed ou~ ~Y our Director of wild:ife, i - ,,as be10r. c..'leci:ed out Cf our Deputy t·tinister 1 and all persons say t.'lat it is a safe range, t."1at t.'lere is no need fer t!1e concerns exrressed. ~· ~·e are, of course, asking the R.CHP to have it looked at a.s-ain ~ it.~l ~le specific problerr.s e~<Pr~ssed cf :1~ving it f::nceC ar:.a signs "..lP and acc:~ss from ~ ot:1er area.. :rowever, in our cas :.:: ~:·:...::.:, :..:te Jepar'tt..er~.t of 'Icur:.:o r and being re5pons~ble for a.dministeri:1g the Huntar Capabil.:.ty Test or s:looting te3t is the fact that 1.ve i1ave a range availabl-e co u.s..

All we can do is go to the RC~· lP anC. if ~'"le RC ·1P in t.~is Pr-:Jvince d eci~e t..""'lat a ranc;a ::." ,;afe tnen certainl:l ••e ;.·ill accept t:'lat opinion. A ~~..&ppler: ~ entary, >1r. :;,_;:eake!: . ..)ar:l(. .

I ·.·:oulci. lir.:~ tc as;.;. t :.e ~:ii~i~c:r of ~o~isiTl t:~ r. ?oT~er) .l o~: :1e ~ an :;tan .:! i n t.uis tiO U.:iC an~ 3d'./ c.!1at an un ~enced area tna~ i.s ..1.seG. fo!" tar::;~t ?rac 'C ice, a. snootin<; rar.s-e, =an !...~ 5d.:~? : :e-:in, i: it i a •J.nfen cE:C - o.nC. ther e ia no ~uest:.i.c n al:out i ~l Chi ldren can '.:Q.nc -2r or ~C.ult::; ::3.n ·.JanC:er in on to t:li3 !:~'l.ge- how could his authorities it i:3 :;c:.f~ ~.::: i:: is ur.:fen..:e~..~ a .. n.c; ·1243

-~'-= · -e= ~ne reason it Cces ~oc ~~e ~y sense to <:..'\e e!IIDe: i s cecause bviously he d oes not undru:st:and a.r.d a5)precl.ate •,tf:oit: :..c ~a.~e s ,?la c e at Ol !lunter Capability t:~st:.ing . .!: doubt i i t:he :nembe:: :~ as ever ~cn e to a cest:., r Coub:; .:..i he .:as ever 'seC or.e. cf ou::- hun:::ing :an<:es or or:e of our :;b.ootin<: :-anges to do ili.s nunte :- capa=i i t'J ::esu.nq . t:..."1e ~rr.:Je r , ... ~ e ~ :.o ;o to .Co ·: . .1.~ t:e ·~~ .. !! ~ou _ d rga.li.ze t..:1at ·..-r.en :·o~.:. ;c- t.o Co -3. tes t:.J s!rnply ~.ecause an al~ea is cnfenceci .:.oes not ~aj(e i t Wlsaie, .... t all over t he Province we '.!Se areas t.l)a;: ar e not :e:.ceC. : or '-'Ji! .:o :-to-e S.t.! ~c. .;:e-.rsons out us~ '=O !liie guns ~, d ~cme back and ~ay, • ~es .or no • ciid no:: ?ass ;ny test' . i.e obvi ous ly na·te supervision the re. · e ot:wiol.lSl:i have a number ci ver'j '!1Ja.lifieci ?ersons who aC.'U.inister '±e :'.ltlce:r - ~ifability ::;!sting .A."l.C.

Eor t .. e :nerr.ber t o s 'c;ges~ sir,gl·: !:eeau se MR . STAGG : The hen. member is unfenced. ;.w nO.N . !1E 1BER: The hen. member should be fenced. MR . SP~R: ettder , please! The l).on. member for Windsor-Bucbans. MR. G. FLIGHT: . ~ini 3t:er of Lar..ds anC E'"orests (~tr. ~ro r qan) .!.risi.n.c; ouc of ~is :;ta~ err.cn c .a a ~ lie !:' today.. ! woul.=. like t.o ask ~,e n'.L&.iscer in :l\~ f i.::z- .i.:'ls-=.ance: ·..:e ~a~ been e~e rl ::-.enting '"it..=-t slo pe logg ir.q t.he ;~~t !our o r :::. ve yea..rs.

Would t! e .:..:.r.i:::Jt_c:: U:id::\lt.e- t:.o cl1e · .c\:.5~ -..:!J-a t ~a.G • iaff.t::..r...;r:! t.c ~-. a · ... ocC. ti:.et ~ -;.a s· ct:!er. ac tua1l:t cut: '..l.r~n -g -:..1~ ex;...er.: er.ca!. t = .:..~-:) - ~· ::;...'\ ~ ::-~c. :o t;I or : ive :;ea r:J? ·· ~ ~ciid :. ... ..: ~ Y..OC•J "';.. ~C:. ~ .·.as ·l2 · ..:!.:t

Tap e 1630 E:C - 1 -::he ilon. 1:...'-le ~nister of C.ands and ?crests. :1r. Speaker, obviously ::ne non. genc.lert'.an is a bit confuseci because I did :1ot refe!: co ~e past experiments a I referred to the fact ~~at there is a new machine being developed in this Province because of ~~e fact thac the steep slope logging machine used in the past has not been efficient. And wi ~• regard to ti1e wood being cut - :1R. nOiJ:JE?.: (Inaudible} answerec the question. :-tr. Speaker, the i1on. the ;nember for Port au Port is really rowdy this morning. Mr. Speaker, the hen. gentleman frcm Windsor - Buchans (Mr. E"ligb.

t) asked a question and I am willing to give cne answer. The wood t.~at is being cut by using this method, trost of the wood has been going into the Price mill, because t.~ experiments were carried out in conjunction witil tn.at company. ~•d we now have a project ongoing in Bay d'~spoir using the cable logging experiment as well. That wood could be very well utilized 1and we hope it ·,Jill be utilized, in t.'le l ocal area b y tile sa•..nnills. SOME RON • :.!EMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. HORGl'.N: And if not, of course, the pulp would also go into Pri= (:ifld.} Ltd. or ::o Bowaters. Hear, h ear~ ~!R.

FLlGET: A supplementary, ~~e han. ~~e ~embe= for ~Vi:uisor - aucha..."'l.s. :·lr. Speaker, :no.s ~ o= ~1e 11 per cs!it of t~a gross :r.e~cilantablc wood on ~uppJ..y in t:,is ?::-ovince i;; locatc:d on t..:!~ even if t...,_e tria:.s are succes:.;ful, ha·re ind.icateci a C.~cisio~ ~o ~e ::a...Ji.e logging for their ·:J~· n "ooC. SU??lies, :.Cao·Ning t,;1.a~ it will ~e L"::ore cost:.::..! :.:". :.3 ~2..: . : i :-.2 : ·i245

.. ? .• 3? ~~:;.: ( 31.=c:s) : :-£.~ . l-P!<G.\:1: :-tr. 3?eal<e:, : ::~em::~.oned ::."lat: O::"le cos::. oi ::.'1e :on:.::ac~ '- annour.cec -:..'U.s =rn:~.nc; has !:leer. cos;: shai"ec ~e:-.;een -::te ;:-.'o levels of c;o~:::ll'.ent:, no ;: :>y J.ncus;::y a.nc! qover:llllem:. rc has ;:,een cos;: shared by ~~e fe6e:al ~epar-~nt: of ~REZ ~~d ~~e ~ewfo~~clanc ~par--ment: of :orest:y. !:1 connec::.:~.on w1.ch ::."e ::ompan.les using this mac.'li.~e. yes , they '" ill oe using ::!'l.:.s machir.e because ::."'ey are :ooki ~ g :orwarci t o ~~is ;:-r...e cf :nac!'d ..

"!e ::Jei.~g manufac::.ured; because ::.~e one :hat is now being <.!Sed 1.s not: effic1.ent ir. ::.'le eyes of C.:1e companies. .::.nci only ;:·.,.o weeks ago, 1n mee:::.i."lg wi:..• AOl.t:ibi ?rice, <~e our.line<! :::~ -:..~em i :1 allocating woor.l suppli'!s that: a :cur amount: c: ::-.at: ·•oo<! 3upply ·•~1 !:e on steep slopes - in c':-'1er ·•ores, .;rear.e: :.~an 30 ?e!' ce.~1: s lope - and L.ley Wl..i.l n a \:e ~ ~e i :1"-ol·;eC :.n :'1 ar·~e:s ~:1c; -:.!.:r.!:e:: on t..~ese slo?f!s. :·5ow, on ~~ese slcpes, ~c we :ook =~~~~~c :o, ·~ ~3c:, illere mac~~r.es c ! ~~is na. ~:l!"e .:~e!.ng manu!a~::.r.:ci 1.n ot..:r ?t>OVl.!"lce :or \l.Se el sew n e~e ~~ Ca:1aCa even. ~~.~ . !!M-ICCC:<: :1R. sn"".A.>cEa: The non . c..~e :ne!Tiber :or $ t. ~·tart' s -:':"le Capes . :-\F..

";;.'IC'Jt:l<: ! have a ques uon for ::he hon. -:.1e ? ::~ m!e r, ;,i1o !.s .:he :U:~is t~::- ::es;xmsfr.lo~ for ;:n ~:crgovernment: a l .<.f:u::s. :o ':.he ·o~nar: in 5t. s.rice's . Zverf year ~:e: :lc\Ve a larqe amou.'\t o! ::amage :.~ :us : a.."'l ac~ of GcC. :n -:.::e FciS~, ·}.24S

December 7, 1979 Tape ;;!o. 1691 NM- 1 MR. HrlNCOCK: the funds have been made available to reFa~r the wharf but u~ey have been made available during the peak fishing season a;"ld the fishe:anen in that area would like to knew if the funds can be made available a little earlier so the wharf can be repaired so it would not interfere with their fishing. With people repairing the wharf, ·and tne fishermen trying to get from the '"harf to the ! ish pl~t, it creates a problem for them. AN HON. Y'.EMBER: question. MR. SPEAKER (Silnms ) : PRE!HER PECKFORD: Hear, hear! A good question. A good The hen. Premier.

I do not know, Mr. Speaker. I will have to check the problem that the hon. member brings out, and see under whose jurisdiction it is or which department is involved in providing the funds and then see whether in fact the kind of request that t he han. member makes can bE accommodated. ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: 11r.

Speaker, I wan~ to direct a question either to the Minister of Health or the Mini.ster of Social iiervices, It is respecting th.e senior citizens' apartment comple:: in Eastport, and both ministers are quite familiar with the s i tuation. ~or the benefit of hon. members, this was a senior citizens' complex built ~~rough funding by the C~HC ~~d it is a sen~or citizens' apartment complex as opposed, of course,t.o an ambula-.::ory or a nursing care centre .. 'l.nd it was meant tc be a low r ental apar~ent complex and due to escalation in the original cost and increasing ir.terest rates it is a!lyt.hirg :,ut a low rental apartment .

So I am just wondering if either minister Car! indicate what is the s1:atus of that seni or c1.tizens apartment ri gh t now? :-IR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minis~er of Social Ser vices. Y!R. HICKEY: ~r. Speaker, a:;; =ar 3.S ! know, the situation is that CMHC is st,;.ck ·,.,ith a building for which they cannot. find any use. The ·.vhole project was ill advised, certainly not devel~ped based on any real need, an imagi.;1ary need, from ~.o.rhat I am tolri by ~he CMHC officials. The senior ci'Cizens were :1sked i:: they agreed '4ith t~e - or if 1:!:a:y t~ought that it ·was a good idea ':o ~ave

J'e em.O ~ 7 , .:. 9 9 '!'ap e ~o. 16~1 !<!R. HICiCEY: such a facilitity ~here, but not necessarily asked directly would they live there. MR. MORQ\N: Right. MR. HI'CKEY: Of course , they thought it was a good idea to have it there, but living there - MR. MORGAN: They would not live there. MR. HICltEY: - packing up and leaving their own hQIIIe and moving into an establishment such as that building was an altogether differen .t situation. The current situation is now that CMHC would like this Province t .o take it over and use it as a nursing home.

ADd I have - in fact, some time a-go i the hon. member will recall, I am sure, we had some discussion rith CMHC • iie indicated to them then that before we would agree to get involved . in this, and even to identify it as a nursing home 1 we would r.ave to make sure that it could be utilizied to the fullest ex~en~. Also we would want to see just what dollars it 'llOul.d cost. We have given ·1249

December ; , 1979 ';'a!?e ~69 2 PK - 1 Mr. Hickey: CMHC for the most part a similar answer right now. I am not s11re, for eleample, that we woulO. be able to !?lace senior citizens in that area if;in fact, the building were made available t-:J U$. I am sure we woulO. not be able to put nursing care ~tients there without extensive renovation. I would want to see whether CMliC is prepared to bear . that cost, and also '"'bat kind of a cost the Province would be involved in before we were to agree to take over the buildin9'. SOME MR, MR. MR. HQN. MEMBERS: HICICEY: SI>EAKER (SIMMSj: MORGAN: aear , hear !

So there are a whole lot of questions. A supplementary, the hen. member for Terra Nova. (Inaudible) is what it is. MR. LUSH: In view of the tr.emendous need ·for a senior citizens care centre in the Province, I wonder if the minister would indicate just what acti"'n his government = r.is department has tal¢en to see if every possible avenue is explored to ensure that the home is used for the intend 'ed purpose, mainly, for s·enior citizens? MR. SPEAKER ; Th~ hen. member for Social Services. MR. HICKEY : Mr. Speaker, the only response I can give the hon . gentleman on that is to - SOME !iON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

Sl'EJU<ER: order, please! MR. HICKEY: - repeat a couple of facts. Fact number one, it is a federal buildL>g. Province. There was no cor.sul~tion with this MR. MORGAN: whatsoever- MR. lUCKEY: I said earlier - MR. MORGAN: MR. P.ICI::EY : AN HON. ~"113ER: Hear, hear. tlone whatsoever. No consultation Indeed,as I said earljer ,and I repeRt wpat - and it was !:>Uilt in my district. - the whole thing was ill-conceived. Ill-executed.

J<>cerrller 7, 1979 Tape 1692 PK - 2 ~!R. HICKLY: Two, I believe that the Province has no direct responsibili~y in taking initiatives to take over a federal building which C~C and the federal government are stuck with. MR. ,)<!ORGAN: That is right. MR.

HICKEY: Now we have, you know, very glaring needs, very real needs for senior citizens accommodations of one kind and another, but certainly we are not going to show " our haD.d to CMHC and say, you know, we are right ready to take over· this building," unless we know what their cards are like and until they put their ccrds on the table and say what the cost is going to be• Maybe they would like us to take over the building; maybe they would like to renovate the building and give it to us to take over and then maybe we might be able to utilize it. But until such time as they do that we are not moving. MR.

MORGAN: - ----- Very pearly conceived. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr • Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (SI~S) : A final supplementary, the han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I can appr~ciate what the minister is saying, but the minister is quite aware that in order for that senior citizens' apartment to be changed into either an ambulatory or a nursing care centre,that it is necessary that the Province agree to issue the proper licencingf that it just cannot be turned into an ambula~ory or a nursing care centre without the approval of the Province.

So has the minister indicated to c~c or to the Inter-faith Denominational Committee of Eastport that he is willing to go along with this procedure? In other words 1 that it would be converted L~to an ambulacory or a nursing care centre? MR. SPEAKER: The han. ~inister for Social services. :-!E. niCKEY: Mr. Spea~<er, you know, I guess it depends an r,.;here you sit ~o-v you see this qu.estion. aa'frlng some ~esfonsibi~ity for sen~or citizens and the~ accarnmodations 1 ~o me that is putting the cart before the horse. I do ~at feel that I should ·1250

--------- Decerriller 7, 1979 Tape 1692 PK - 3 Nr .. rtickev: indicate co C~lliC and/or anybody else that ~his government's agency are going to issue a licence for eithe~ ar:Lbulatory ~njjor :1ursing .::are, ·1251

!.')79 SD - l i':. is ::.at a very goo..:i deal. So ! ~l ~i:.LJ:-lY sa:zi.;•c; let .::.:rc :?Ut its car6; a.'l the taJ:.l~, say ~.m~ t: the ~uilciing \-:ou.ld .::ost us if we were to take it over, t~li us if ~,ay ~re pre~areQ to renovate it .3.~:.c. so on,.!.nd t.~en 'lie ~Hill C.et.er:;..i.""'l.e 'Nhether ·.ve are able to u·::..ilize t:1.e ;.;uil.iing or not. I ci:o not t!'l.ink ~-c are ~a.in~ ..J.if=i=ult in this :Si~:lation..

Ind.:ed, I mis~t tell ~7';/ hen. friend, I ~~ve ~12.d no direct: proposal 3.S :unis-c~r of social servi::es wit01 resarC:s to this ?reject anc I would 3~ggest to my :.on. friend that he s~culd get in touch with :tr. ~yan 1 who has this ~hite elephant 1and tell him ~lat if he '<'lishes to come and talk to us we will certainly talk to hi:r, ::;>rovided the cost is not going to b~ ,:xorbitant and provided, you kl'l.ow, he does not ex-.;ec"'; '.lS to take him the hook for a M..~. SPEAKE?.: (;;r. Sbm:;) nas :J?..:Jc~: .:F '!':t.: ~;...,·~ :tR.

Orci.or 2 Cc.-:.cittee vf t::e ;,tole. 0rC:.er 2 - C::u . .-.I:!i.tt.:e .,= t:~~ ~-;~"lole or: ' (:,c. 53) • ·1252

30 - Jrc!er 1 21ease! :le are discuss inc; t:~~ a:n.e:~.cimen t :nade ~y t=:e ~on. mer.~er far 3ra.nd. 3..lnk '(:1r • .~,..~ .. T~or:s) :.1...~der Clal.!Se 131 . . :1r. c!'lairman, _ want to :::o:~grat· .. llata r.t:t colleague for bringing L""l t.hi.s amend:.nen t. ;-Je had some O::if::i:::cl ty, as ~~e ~~air ~""lows, in trying to arrive at the proper ~rocedure for amending this particular

section of ~>,.e act. Md there ne.ve been some valid points made and a ••ery strong case :nade, :~r. Chai=an, by t.'J.e member for Carbonear (:-lr. R. :1oores) using actual cases and e~ • .-perien:::es that he !las had. 'tlell, ! a..,.,.sure that we ha•Te all !::een faced <dth similar situations .,,here tile act gives ~'J.e town council a great deal of power in imposing on people's proper~y and disconnecting water in t.,_e event t..l;.al:. 2eopla should f~il ':o pay e'leir taxes.

Now 1 t:.C~i.s is rather cr~el ar.ci as 'Z'.! hw':l. friend says 1 "\•ell, not because it was in previous acts it -5 1right. 11 I . can see now t..h.e Government H0use Leader 1 the P!. esident of the co ·.mcil 1 '"'Ot:ld 1et .1p and say 1 "Oh 1 t:~e me.::1J:ers v.·ere sitt.!.!"lg ~~ere for the last fi-:re or six cr sc(ler>. or eight or t2!1 or fiftee!l or ~t~nty or fifty or one ~u.ndred or one ':1· .. rndr'=:c..:.: .so ~,;!lat? T~oe:re are all kincis of t;,intj3, -::lauses i::. ~.cts th.:1t •,,,~ . ..:, ....... ,_ .i.:.l? -...; __ , ·-~1 '- '1253

_·.:..: ;:. ,.:..:= . ':".,.a J - • I _, : :: . l -. ··--· ~ .. - : 12.S·1

....

F-l ,!.!:'e ':!:li~g ccnsoliC~teC ::.co;.,• unCer one ~i.!.l caller, '"?.r~ 1\c"': ~o .-.:-2r.O:: .. !.nC ?.evise _:lnC. :cl:..~.ate ~e :.a':·.> ?.e!.atir.g ~o ~:.~ ?.'staJ-lish~ent it,Sir, ~::.at senior citizens, •.;et~rr.s, people on ur:.er::t?lcyr..ent insurance, Feople irt lOT;: incocr .e brac}::ets,~ave been the victims of - =.s_;;:-P.cially •,.::-:_~:1. ~/CU ·;e't. a ·~""er_:" aggressive ..::ouncil, especially as ~., ~on. frier..C. ~oint2C out yesterc."lay, when :E=cli tics creep into it an~ local je~lousies anC ~ifferences of opinivn in co~unities ~~i3e and so~e!:. o~y or:. ti:.e cour:.ci 1 is out to get sorr.eboGy els~ in t.~e cortn'!uni ty, that t."!is could Ce abuseC, t::is clause. !t cc·J.ld ~e arused anc has been aJ:::used.

I spent t:1·1elve ~·P.ars ;:-,yself on a town coul'.ci!.. I · . .ras once Deputy :~ayor but r •,;as a councillor for a.:-out t"" .. 7-:!.ve years and ·...rh~n I used to go t~rough th~ act and see ~~e ::'~~~rs t~at '~Te haC it often frightened rr.e .. I k:-tow the :r.inist~~ will '=~t up anC ;:~.rgue tt-:.at =~e cou~1cil must ~ave sct-e Jever, it :rust '::a,Te $Ome reccurse in ':he ':'lent t:-.at r:-eopJe do not -;a'! thei~ t.::.:-:es.

" t~~ t;~qir.!"!ir:.g a!'.C sa.i.~ ~ /Jell ::he ~i • .i.n<:"" to r-=o is tc shut cf:E t!-lei~ r,•ate:- : 1 ?.ut I t-eliev~, Sir, rhat t..,_,_at p!-:.iloscpb.y ~s · . .,~rc~q ~ecausc it :rer.,ov'=!s the legal ~espor:si.l:lility and t...'"-.e legal rights. The cour.cil :...an se!lt their stcr.n. t~oor,e~s .a.!":y tirr:e t!ley £-=e~ like it to s!"!.ut o:ff ·':~e 'Nater. So my her... friend, r_1.e I"!errber :Ear Grar.t:j B2nk (i!r. Thcr.s) 1 Coi~g o~ the Qart of ~~e council to collect t~eir t~~es ~ut ~t ie~s~

?-F-2 ·~·arks people arounC. tc shut off ::-eo~le • s ':l.'ater. ~··Tithaut notice. That is :eight. Without notice.Jl..no the "-on. minister will get up and argue," Well,!Jeople wlto never paid t:J.cir taxes far ~.qelv8 :o~ths, for tt.·IO years, for U..ree years 1• 11 And he could say7 Well,they have hac :1otice. They have had hro years notice or t..'ley have ::ac t"-ree "ears :1.otice,• But, so what! MR. THOMS: They may not have had any notice. .'IR.NEARY: That is right. '~1:". Chairman, I would like to hear the minister get up and expound his ideology and his philosophy and the philosorhy of his government.

Tell us just wh~t happens in t..'le cases of old age pensioners, in t..'le case of veterns, in t..'le case of people on social assistance, in the case of people on unemployment insurance and people on fixed incomes who may have si~:1ess in the family, some ot trem may ce hardship cases. ~~ow what happens when the town council moves in and shuts off t..'leir ,.;ater? '!'~.ey then becol!'e a burden to the state. 'line chances out of ten t~at is w~at happen~. ~ey beco~e a CurCen tc the state. They just giye up. T.-tey say,"1·1ell, I am going tr. qive up.

Now go out anc find a place for me to live." I 'lave seen it happen, .'lr. Chai=an, on num.P.rous occasions ,~Then governr.~~t moved in and createC problems for itself >;ith this ;:ir.d of legislution. T~ey will a.ll enc' up !::ad<: to t~e Yini:;ter of 8ocial Services(~~r.Eic:kt:::y)- not ell of tl"'.e:n but a good many of them will. They ,,.;ill just say , 11 Okay, pco:,,le en social as~istanr:-~ C".?.n '!r;t t~e c;-over:'l.rr~nt to rroviCc t::en~ :·:i ':h a :-.a us~, - . .-it:: ·1256

Tap e .• 0 . lG0 5 .:Uccause :r:any a sood. ~lewfoundlanrier, Sir, has had to give up i..eca1.!3e ne coulc r•o.; cope. Anc otolieve "'e 1 ·,I::. en a cown council sets on tne ratr.page, on t.'le o;.;arpat.':l look out~ t.;suall~· a t1ard line cevelops between the customer and t.':le co=cil and or.ce t.'J.e tuS; of war staZ:ts 1 -:i1en l=i<- out, t:.<1ey will cot:te do~o;n on the ;,>cor inaivi..iual like :1 con of orick..

I was fairl.i· soft-hearted ;nysel.f when I was in t.1e councJ.l 1 I ileliewd i:::1 the diplomatic approach. ·.cu try co make _,;eople feel that they ar8 a ;_;art of a cotr.munity, that t.;.,.ey should 9ay their taxes. If they do r.ot carry t.':leir sha-re of t:1e loaci then they are oeing slackers. As '"e used to say, ' You are a slacker' . (Inaudible) . XR. :, • ;;J:;ARY: I wisn somel:.ociywould resettle the hen. gentle- tr.Gn. And so, ;.1r. Chai=an, this is a goocl atrendir.ent. (Inaudible). Yes, I ~'-no\\.·.

The minister will get \.l.P .and sa~, 'Listen to t...l.e!r. :-,ow, t:hey are over -:: :~t.: ~i! now. ~ u.ean,everyth i ng st.ould be changed. Why cic.i ti1ey not change it? ~·iall, :ny ~on. fri.and o.as still in high .:c:1ool 'N'hen the Acts were brougi1t .I wes over on aell Islan~ ~oiorking for JabC~ . :·IF.. J. MGRGP.H : (Inaud i ble).

The hen. gentle~tan "hould ;:;o out and ;:l..1d. tile lec;s off :lis little Sf'ruce budwon~.s and start countJ.ng ais little sr.ru.::::e o•;.ciwc,rti,S. :i.e cocr.es in t11is r.lorning ~·i t:l a grandiose illln~:n.:. .. 1cer.ent, Tne poor old ?rS!I'·icr ·.,...3.5 £!mbarrassed~ he di.C ;:.oi: s;::.y ar..yt!1in; a!.;out the st: r uce ~ucho.rc~ damaged tider. :.inis:.e.r :>f :iur.~.i:i_pal i:.fE.:..irs ar . ..:.i. iio~.3ins (Y.r . ..inC.scr) ·...rill. .lave a li -:.tli:! !:i-: cf b.

UI:'.a.J1.i ta~ia'1 s~stance in hi:: vl.er!s, :l1a.; ~1 e ·.vi Ll :1.-:.ve c. 2..i t-=le = ll ~;;c.:..ence over this and get 1.:p o.nd support the d.Llenci_'llent, say it is .:i s;o-.Jli c.rre:ncii<.enc r that r..o cour,cil s:1c:n . .lld :'lave :.:~c. riq!lt to uwJ.r::;.: t. :e ·1257

':~ ;: e .:o . 1&'35 :.:inc.; o f .:.ills in ::here L'lcluel.ns a bill for wate r ~~::v1.ces. • ;:all o::.ne 1.:S a collar a :..eek. or a eoll-a: a o.onr..'l or a =ouple cf eollars a .. !:'.Ont...-.. .• \):; ·A·r.1 te :hem a l e t t er a.nC &:..:plaJ._.~ :o C:t-2::., uCc:ne on in. ~e ~~~~'-~ ~~e car. resol'le ::!us maccer;·anc ::oc jc:o:: :'cll s;:eee al:eac! snuc off ::ne ~at:er ~n o leave lit::le c~lcren - ~ot only water co the1 3hut sover1".r..enc, too. Tne :.ir.is::er can lauqh, he jcr..ec :t~::erea:i about t.'~ac. -:::> eeal ·.· i::~ ::!1ese \!tili::y cc~panies. J us:: !r.ag1.ne! ! dol!'::: i! chere ~s ·l2:=:S

-ecember I , 19 9 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: !>ir. Chairlllan, if I was the non. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. lhndsor), I would stop taking my advice fJ:om the Minister of· Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) , or Industrial. Relations 1 whatever he calls himself 1 who has a tendency 1 when he wants to be ,t.o be one of the nastiest pieces of business in this House. ae is very nasty.. He can be "Very nasty indeed. So the hon. gentleman sho~.ld stop taking advice and agree. I mean, if we are going to - what is the point of Comm.' ttee of. the Whole?

What is the point i!' you cannot mak·a amendment~ if you cannot have debate baclc and forth? I mean 1 the government has dug in, obviously. The gov~nment does not intend to make any changes in the amendments. They pretend, "Oh yes, this is democracry, Committee of the Whole. Yes .. " The P1;emie::: will say, "Oh, yes, sure. Put up some amendments, we will take a look: at them." I do not !:>elieve we have had one yet, have we? Not one, I do not believe one of our 3lllendmen .ts have been accepted yet. MR. MOORES: MR . 'I'l:!Ot1S: !1.R.

NEAR'! : They have always said we wera negative. no matter how reasonable we are. Yes, we are always negative. The government is so partisan that the Opposition is always negative. We are quite sincere, Mr. Chairman. We are quite sincere. to!R. MOORES: We offered seventeen amendlnents to the Matrimonial Bl.ll. Tha~ is clqht . 3eveoteen amendmenT~ ~o tne :1atritnon~ .Sill. :1ot one - t.he government. - i c :101: accept. one . T!'ley just du'] in, tco k t.b'l! h=d line, .-.nd ~hought we were pl.ayiny ;;>olit.ic:s -:l'iler he re.

Yot.: ..,oulC. r.ot. know but ·«e •«erE: - 1-1e .ue a. ;>ar1: of t::-te :-L~. !•!001\E$ : :-t.'<. ~';..":!: We ~ave as :auch :-t.gnt:. to :ta·.re inpuc L~t:o leg~slacicn as t:he Lagislat.ive - ..,e ~ve more as a ~c~er -f :ac1:, ~ecaus:e ~e ~p;>rove t..l-tese laws , a.!'td. 'Ht make ::be la\ors. ~-l ::..;ey do is ~a:t: :;.!":-e :n :ciclf'.rr. .l.n :....~e D~po ar c.me:"i.'t: c:: .J~s~1..c~. .l.nd . ..,.he!l CJ e:1 ;1ce bc:l,Jghc

December 7, 1979 Tape ::-lo. 1696 NM - 2 MR. ~lEARY: legislation as the member for St. John's North (~. u. Carter) who is supporting the government, or a minister, the member for Gander (Mrs. Newhook), just as much right, and should be heard and listened to just as much. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. l1R. NEARY: And not just bring legislation in and expect every member of the House to rubber stamp it. Is that the way the Premier is going to develop a major legislative programme in this Province? Well 1 I hope he does not take to the airwaves now before Christ:nas and say, "Well, boy - AN RON. MEMBER: He will. MR.

NEARY: He will I .know, and he will have his picture taken. He has allocated so much time a day to have his picture taken. But now he has a new strategy. One time if you did not talk about oil, well then you could not get the ear of the Premier, you could not get his attention. But now if you do not attack Ottawa, if you do not declare war on Ottawa,you cannot get his attention. He · -- ~· shifted from one crisis now to the other. He lurches Erom confrontation to ultimatums, from one to the other. And so I have no doubt at all, Mr.

Chairman, that when the tiouse closes you will turn on your television some night and you will see the hon. the Premier on there saying, "Well, we would have passed more legis~ation, you know1 but ch~ Opposition slowed us down. They were filibusterJ.r,g and they were obstructinq and delaying the proceedings of the House:' ~~d all we are doing, Mr. Chairman, is asking the government, we are beqginq and pleading with the ~averment to change some of the old legislation, some of the old laws of this ?rovince that were regressive, to say the least. That is all we are asking.

So I hope that somebody ::m the government benches •.-J!.ll have :.oangs of conscience and come cut and sa~-, "Well, yes, yes ••e brought ir. a couple of major bill; all right. T~ey were major reforms but ~hey ~ere an intrusion into people's lives. They '"ent further to intrude in people's personal lJ.ves and. married lives than anything else that has; ever !::leen done in t..~e h~story of mankir.d." 1l2oo

Decembe~ 7 , 1979 Tape No. 1696 NM - 3 ! know che Minist~r of Educa tion will smile and not: say ~:hat: 1.s so, but: l c l s so . Nhen you a!:'e c:_.-.fl.ng to get at a problem, 11r. Cha irman, '"hen ycu are trying ~:o get at a problem you do not: puni-sh everybody in Newfoundland, a."ld here we are here trying to ge t: at: a problem . We· are t~1.ng to get: ac che problem '"he::;e people :or one reason or anot:her go in arrears '"i th their '"'ater tax so . ..,e brint; in a l aw to ?uniSh every.boC.y.

If somebody has an argument: with the council, say, :for instance, :ny hon . friel)d from Grand Ban!< ha s an argument With c.'le cir.y council and he says, "!am not paying my water taxes until you de this." And he is quite justified . :ie is wit:.~n his legal. dght: and he cannot: get any ac1:ion · out: of the counciL By and by you will see him com.i.-tc; cio~v-n with t.ile st:orm coopers, all che t.rucks ;rill pull up, an-d my hon. fr i end '"ill ~o home some evening and c.'l.ere Ls not: a <izop of wacer i n the :..llouse.

AAd t:hat could happen, Sir, and it: has happened. ~hat is right? rs !our Honour ac;re~ing ·,o~ith me or :.s my t.~~e u_p? ·:!our Ecnour is ag,reeinc; witt me . !

Tape iG37 .=...... - l converted. ~Jaw, if only r could conver~ ::he :·linister of c-luni:::ipal Affairs (Mr. N. Windsor) 1 if only he woul d stop taking i1is acivice from :'t::. )lasty t:o his right., ~~en we might ce able to get somewhere in this Frovir.ce. .~d if only t:•e Premier '"auld put out: instructions to his ministers that when tne Opposition - when a member of the House, it does not make any difference where !1e sits, when he has a good contribution to make, when he has a good amendment to a

section of a bill or to a bill, well, let us look at it, let us talk about it - or are we going to be all one-sided in ~~is neuse and every~'l.ing is going to be developed along the line of partisan politics? I would like to hear what my hon. friend froa St. ~ry's The Capes (Ylr. !ian cock) thinks about tnis . Should councils down in his area have the aut:hority without as much as gi•1ing one day's notice to come in and shut off people's water? My hon. friend should get up and have · a few words to members on the government benches.

Because, as I say, Sir, it does not make any difference to me whether it was in a bill for ~-¥enty-five years or tl1irty years or a hundred years; if it needs to be changed ~'J.er, let us c.~ange it. MR. it. MOORES : MR. CHAIRM&\1: (Butt) ;.g_. THOMS: ~~is particular amendment . Hear, hear: The hen. t:he member for Grand Bank. Mr. Chairman. just a few more words a;:,out I believe the amendment is reasonable. I t.:1.in..i< C.:.1e ?r2.sident of t.ht!

Council (l'-Ir. :1arshall) would agr;e ·w.l.t,;,1 me, t...~e :·tinister of ~ducacion (Hs ~/erge), t..b.e ~ll.n.i.:;te!:' oi ~·1i:les and =:ncr:;~:l u.s c. .. ,is t:lat cilll be ta~en 'Nit.1out giving :-.ot.lce. : =oulci no-c s~ t;:e :L!inis!:::- ~orrDrrow ·Nitil.ou't. giving notic'2. Sear, ~lear~ I co11ld i"lO"t: sue :fa:: posses3ion dS ~ landlor·'i agai:1st a tenant wit.'-lout gi•.r.tng :1ocice. :i: coulci nc-:. :or~clvs2 - :;:-~~.:...-. !.·: \;_• --· ·l2t:2

~ecenber ,, 1979 rape 1697 ~c - 2 the compassion during t.'1e debace on c...':.e ma=imcnial law. I wonder does she believe that: c::mncils should be given tl'le authority, t.'l.e abso.!.c1te right, to go in and cut off tl'le water? I ::~ea."'t, this ace gives chem the permission to walk right into the :nan's !:ledroom, if necessary, to do t.'1at, wichout giving notice. It seems ;:o me ~':at it is a very reasonable ~"ling to have in a sec~on of this sort. AN <iON. ME..'1BER: They do not have the shut-off valves i..11 a ~edroom. :-!Po.

THOMS : I do not know where ~.ey shut off valves, you know, I am not a pll!!!lber. But .. ,;ith me it is the principle of the thing. I mean, I cannot stand here and believe '::.'lat. the ~1inister of Education (:~ Verge) agrees that a secti~n - I mean, somebody wno fought so hard for t."le rights of the downtrodden - MR. NEARY: A lot of t."lern are widows, by ~~e way. MR. THOI'.S: - you know, when we debated the matrimonial act, fought so hard for this ~ype of person, and now, here she is, by her silence, condoning an aut.':.ority su~~ as t.'1is. ~o wonder she hangs her head in shame.

A lot of people on the other side of this House should hang ':...'leir heads in shame. Because I do not believe for one minute t.~at she can stand llp and defend - and I am not talking about principle of this particular section, I am not talking a.bou1: gi•·ing tile council tne authority to :::ut off ~'le water, what should be an ultimate aut.'lority - my own personal belief is ~'lat t.'ley should have to sc1e, t.'1ey should have to take whatever ot.'1er rem:dies that: are available under t.:.~e act be fore -c..1ey .:io this.· gt.J t:.ra ug~l. our judicial systen.

T~is should be d last resor-t in ar~.y eveEt, ~:n.:.t ~t. is not. ( Inaacii:·le) . It is not.. Show· rr".e ·,;he~e i~ says t.~is is a last reso~t ~ (I:1aud.i:.:le i • . \l,j_ ~ 1: 5ays is 'in a.C.d.l ti.or. 1 , i c .:..o~s :'.a~ 1 a~te~ all ot..~e~ rG:n:eC.ics .::a,.Te :aile C. •. - a.:.- ·12c3

0 ~· .-j ·rl u lJ ·'' § 0 OJ " "

Q) rl 5 u 0 ' ~ ... "' :J '" " ,, "' OJ > 'lJ ·rl ... tJ• ') jJ r. 10 ·rf ::l ,_ G ~~ "' ..,- :;., :J.:) •O r f r. :'l N Q) ~~ "' ,, r-"" o. '" :;., ,_, F. " lJ ·rl .., 0 r. ~ aJ :> ·rl t1' 0 '-' aJ ..,, > ·- <d '" .r. r f :;., aJ ,_ ·fj ,, ~ " () ·"~ :L: ~ l: E: • "' () IIJ IIJ g~ ::l (l '"

'!'i!.i?e 1698 PK - l :-tr. Thoms: They must issue a writ. '!'hey must issue a statement of claim. And I then have a right to go in and file a defense MR. NEARY: Get legal aid. MR. TliOMS: -or a set off, or a counter claim. Under this

section all my rights as a parser.. are taken away from me. The Council has the absolute right to en£orce the payment whether it is owing or not, by cutti.ilg off the water, and what is even worse without even giving notice. Now I know the minister is going to stand up and say, ''But no co1mcil would ever do that". AN liON. MEMB~: Because they would send you a bill. ~lR. Tl!CNS : No council will ever shut off your wa t~ without giving you notice that they are going to cut it off. That is a lot of tommyrot. Because I know what petty jealousies and animosities can arise in small towns in our Province.

I know how a w.ayor ol: a to~or.. or a councJ.l or anybody else can create an animosity between a taxpayer and the council. And I can see, v~ easily see the - the city of st. John's is doi.'lg it now. This is a Christmas gift to a few people who were in arrears of taxes in St. John's, they are cutting off their water. 1 !Jla;J.<iible) . ~IR. Tl:'!CMS: w.-.111 p:roba!:lly ;. t...'lire o i t:he businessmen :.n St . John';;. o-.•e -:ne counc ils tl!ousands, arid tll.ousands, and ~i.ousands. and ti:ousands oi <ioll ars. t;ives t:hen t: he au-ch~r.1:c.y to do i r.. . . ~!R .

TI-10MS: amer.dmen t ~o 3$-'t for . ~ ~ C!ia.:....rman , yo•J.. knO't-11, to me i c ls a = ea sona.ble ~4aybe i t is use_ess =or tne to ge:: •9 here a:nd ::::~-ques~ a.mendme.'""t"t:.;s to th~ Act 1 ~Q!a~onable or ·i\ o~. Ii ~e :n.:.nist:er or a~ybc4y or. ~.e ~~~er s~de ~1 t~e House csn show ~~ chac ~his i3 ~o~ a :-~sonablE .a.:n..:ndme~t: t .can -::onvL""tce me 1.t is not d.. re~sona.ble :3..me.tlcirnent 5u~ if .:.i: is = rez.so:la.ble amen.d.me:1.t. ;.;:hy W.O\lld :-·ou not accept. :. ? · i Z~S

uecember 7, 1979 Tape 1698 PK - 2 :.tr. T !lams: same thing as we got when we dicussed the Matrimonial Act, when the ~linister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) kept coming out and saying, you ~~ow, I mean practically coming out and saying "Yes, boy1 you are right. You know, this

section should be amended. But it is the policy of this government once we make a decision not to accept reasonable amendments." That is what the Minister of Justice was saying when we discussed the Matrimonial Act. -No matter how reasonable you are, no matter if the amendment is needed or not - ~!R. NEARY: Arrogant and dictatorial. MR. THOMS: - it is the policy of this government not to accept the amendments. MR. NEARY: Sir, arrogant and dictatorial. MR.

THOMS: Now to me it goes against, you know, all my sense of what natural justice is all about, when had given the council the authority to go in without ;1otice. And, you know, I would challenge, I really would I 'N'culd challenge a number over there to stand up on the floor of this House and say that they believe t.h.at t:own· coliDcils, community councils in this Province should have the right to go in c~t off the water supply, deprive a family, deprive children without e•ren giving notice. notice.

They do not have to give twenty-four hours notice, six hours If you do not want to accept my amer.dment, my reasonable amendment well, you know, let us agree on a month's notice, let us agree on a month's notice, three weeks ~otice, something that is reasonable, six months, if you think six months is too long. But they should have .some notice. And I believe the Minister o£ Education (Ms. Verge) if she could stand on her f~et and d~d r.ot have to - MR. NE.'\.RY: She is not allowed. MR. THOMS: - follow the party line on this - ~!R. ~lEARY: Right. MR.

T30MS: - and I really do noc: see any reasons 'N'hy somebody should have to follow party - ! mean, all they are doing is get~ing up and saying to the ~inister, "Look,.this is a. reasonable amendment ·12€6

T.=.pe 1698 P:<. - 3 : .. 1,.. Thoms: let us go along with it" . I£ :10t 1 t hen we are just wasting our ~ime and this whole procedure is ~ farce. I ·,.yould like to believe i~ is not

:): cemb..a!r I, !. 979 Tape No. l699c SD - 1 :1R. I.. THOMS: a farce, ~t when we ask for reasonable amendments then consideration should be given to them. Z.fR, CHAIRMAN: (Butt) The hon. member for Placentia. ~. W. PATTERSON: I think the fears being expressed by the hen. member are totally i.m.aqina.ry. 11R. L. THOMS: ,Imaginary ! :-~&. W. PATTERSON: Imaginary, because these powers are already in ex.i,stance. MR. L. 'mOMS: But that is the argument 1 got from the Minister of ConsUllll!r Affairs (Mrs. !i. Newhook)' the other day, that it the one that llliikes me so JDade, it is not because the law is there - MR.

J. MORGAN: Oh, oh! MR. L. THOMS: That is right. MR. , J . :~ORGA,.'I : Nonsense! ~-'l. . '<;, ?!l.~ERSON: I have had considerable experience - MR. L. THOMS: They are so stupid! Tell me what -makes the Minister of Lands and Forests (!'1r. J. i1o:rganl (inaudible) MR. S , !mARY: (Inaudible) playing with his budwoxm. Go home and play with your budworm •• HR. W. PATTERSuN: I have had consideraPle experience with loc.U. governmnet, we have ha<;l. tbirty.,.nine years of it in Placentia.

I served on the town council for a number of years, I was President of t.ne Joint Councils up there when the hen. member's late brother was there; he .and I got al.ong real well and and one thing we really clicked en was that the towns should be antalsa.:nated or conseli<iated. I believe in that and I wil.l contin11e to J,>ursue that. But to qet back. to councils havirig a right to collect for services, s~at is only normal, ~at is only righ~. AR. L. TH~"!S: The argument as I ga.:c.her it -:rom listeninl;r ·J258

0ece.tober 7, 1979 Tape :'io. 1699 so - 2 ~lR. 1;, ?.>.TTERSON: co do anything as alectaa councillors that is going to in any '"ay interfere with us being re-elected again. "Now, let us realize that you are not go:Lng - 1:..'-lere are hundreds ana ;lundreds a£ u.-.popular things beinq done in your distric~ at the present moment and I will defy you Lo bring them up here in the House of Assembly. You are looking down the road to four years the same as all other men here. ris for - SmlE EON. i1EMEERS : :·lR. iJ. PATTERSON: Oh, oh! The councils must have that authority.

If they are going to provide services, they certainly must have tile right to collect. Now, they are not going - HR. r... THm'..S: Yes, through the courts. MR. 'ii. PATTERSON: Not necessarily tilrough the cour":.s. And I do not think you will find, I never did find in the thirty-nine years we have had local government up there where councils belligerently wen~ in on people's proper~y and turned off water; they would not do that. They will send bills upon bills and bills, the court would be the last resort. So : think that - MR. T!:iOMS: (inau<,;ible). c1R. W.

PATTERl,ON: You have no obJections tc ~'le amendment There is no need of ~'le amendment. An RC~ officer could go out and pull SO per cent of the cars on ~'le road off 1-f they wanted to. They can stop you with a taillight out and stay i:.aere, but 1:he.se are t!.1.e discretionaL ':i things where they i.lSe good :uugement. I really do not think ther: is a - :·L". L. Tl:0!1S: giving me notice . :·!R. ':1. ?A!'TERS-JN: civil ciebts? : IR. :.. • T"ri0!1S : ~ lR .. i.i .. ?ATTERSGH: You can not take me into cuurt without 1es, to take :~.rou to court it req:..~.i.1·es ~at ;,.;i~hcut givinc; =ne not~ce you can not .

But t.J.1ey 'NOuld gi~te not:.ice. Council.:5 Jo Sut [le.r:e chey Uo :~ot ;~ave co. ·1269

Jecernber 7, 1379 :·tR . ;; . PATTERSON: . -!..'<. L • '!liOMS : h.'l HuN. MEr!BER: :tR. ',-/, ?!~TTERSON: in the Province who would - !1R. L. THOMS: DR. J • COLL!:-IS : to a collection agency. AN dON. MEMBER: !1R. J. COLLINS: Tape Ole. :!.699 SD - 3 necessarily r.tean they will not do it. Oh1 no, I agree with that • (Inaudible). I see, I do not ~,ink ~•ere is a councillor What is that again? (Inaudible) to a lawyer he wants to resort Say that again:? You want every bill ~,at is in arreas to go to the courts. You know, that is :1ot what the courts are for. As a lawyer you should know that. :m. L.

THOMS: If I am owed a debt, I have got to go to court. !1R. W. PATTERSON: I really do not know what is happening in other districts, but I do know what has been happening in Junville and Freshwater and Jerseysice"and Placentia and, as I said before, I was President of ~,e Joint Councils there and I serYed on the town council up there and in very, very rare cases did we hav~ to take people to court.

Most people want to pay their way, not all people ·•ant to J.o !..t, but they may get into a bit of trouble getting out of work and get back a little bit but I guarantee you that .!..s the last resort when you cut the water off to a person's home. Now, the houses ~'lat you St>eak of, properties in St. Jop~'s, I notice quite a number have absentee lanaloras and they are in ~,e business for making money. Now, if you have a fellow renting property and is not paying !1is way, ye'>, drag ;"lim by tne scruff of ~'le neck squeali!lg into the cour-;: and put the cla.'tlps to !lim and get your money. :•tR.

CHAIRMAN: (Sutt) :-tR. L. TiiOt·lS: The i1on. member for Grand Bar...k. ~.so, :lr. Chairman. ·!-2'/Q

:t."'·· CF.iU:aMi!J.'i: (But~) Affairs and ~nviror~nt. :-IRS. i:lEW"HOOK: ':ape l i:lO =.c - 1 The non. ~~e Minister of Consumer Mr. Chairman , I nave to get up to speak. I have been listening here and I am ver: 1 very distiesseci. I do not know if I can even . ext;>ress what I would like to say. I am distresseci to hear from the Opposition the opinion tiley have of ow: councillors all across this count..ry. SOME HON, MEMBE~: Hear, hear!

M~. ;'lE:WHOOK: They are painting them as villains, as Deing un=nscionable, and I know - and I am sure everybody in t...'J.is House knows - that the co.uncillors in this Province are the finest people we have . SOME HON. ~E~: Hear, hear! MRS. NEWliOOK: I am very, very sorry, indeed, to hear tb.is . I do 'not k•lpW how the members of the Opposition C4ll go back to ~'lei::: districts and face all these councillors after what I have been hearing in t.'lis House dw:ing the past week.. SOME !:iON, ~'mERS: Oh, oh! MRS. !!iEWHOOK: They have been painting them as militant as tryin .g t:l gpuge the people of their towns.

Honestly and truly, I have never heard such a thinq in my life.

These ar.e people wo offer t.'l.eir services voluntarily, they are elected by the people to represent them, and I am very, very sure t."lat every councillor does the .oest he can for his community. t~0W, wi t.r.~ re,gard to this amendment, ! know that to cu·t off someboC.y' s 'dater is a 'Tery, very last resource '::..">.at :.ny council will take. near. :tear~ Md I have never k.-,owrt a ;:c;nmci l, really, r:c ao anci do t...,at w·itl1cut: giving a proper noti.=e. )low,. some cour.Cils nughc to i~ a.~ci r am not saying they :1ave :10~, but ~ k:1ow that ciuring -=--~= ti!l\e I ~as councillor in Gander, :Ne :1ever ~id ~o "Chat w-.·i ~1out . ..,.~it.in:g ~"lei l~tting ··1271

Tape l 700 r::c - 2 :c-!RS. NEWHOOK: s~y in 99 per cent of ~~e cases, o~ man did not have ~o go and 6o ~~at because that person ~auld come in. Not only that - when you talk about a six !OCinths' notice - these people are given a year's notice, two years' notice, some of ~"lem are four and five years old before a council really goes to ~~is extreme. SOME HON. ~!EMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS. ~OOK: Another thing that we are forgetting, too, is that council has now ~IJ.e power where it can exempt this tax if it wants.

It can defer it, it can reduce it, and not only that, for the people who cannot pay, ~~e Social Services then will come across and pay it for them. So really and t:::uly, I cannot understand all the debate on this particular amendment. SOME nON. MEMBERS: c•!R. C!iAIR!A.AN: (Butt) SOME HON. ME.'!BEP.S: :1R. THOMS: Hear, hear~ The han. the member for Grand Bank. Oh, oh! Would the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Morgan) like to have a few COlTIII\ents on ~"lis bill?

I '"auld concede illY seat to him if he wants to have a few words to say, some~"ling ~ntelligent, something we c~~ all understand if that is possible. Mr. Chairman, you have to respond to ~~e comments t:.1at were just made by the Minister of Consun:er .:.ffairs and 2nvironment (l·lrs. c-lewhook). I do n0t thir.k I have hear6 such tommyrot in all my life as I just heard. For anybody on ~"le o~~er siae of ~~e House to get up on t:1is floor and ;;ugges t ~"lat we have beer'. in any \<ay, si1ape or =~rm, attacking t.:,e tcwn councils or tne town councillors of this ?rovince is a lot of tommy~ot - 3bsclute tommyrot!

I have made my ~osition quite clear in this !!o~1se ~'1at I am against the ?rinciple - :·L?.. ~!0 RGA..'l: ~~ainst ~~e COlli<Cillors. .lo, t..~ac is ·.;ha-c you ·.vant t.:ne peo~le of t...1..i..3 Prov1n.::=e 'C.O t.elie,;s, f:.aa.c •.ve 3.re against. ~~e councillors~ Bu'C. ·~~~ ar<: ·1272

.o.E-1 councillors. ~!c", r <fill tell t~e :·!ir..ister of C'onsumer ;..::fairs (~rs ~·e~!':ccl<) that ••e Clave soroe good councillors, we have some T"ediocre councillors and we have some 'Jad councillors. ~'o~-r we :?roJ:.ably :-.ave il.ll :-ac. ministers. That is the differ=nce. That is tre i'i fference !)etween· councillors. They are all had ministers. MR.MORGAN• .i'<.re you going to juc:'ge all t ·he councillors nO<.o~? :~P.TF.OM~: I a!T' not judginq all the councillors. I said we ~ave sc!T'e good ones, son:e rr.eeiocr:o! ones ane >re have some bad ones. They are not all good.

They are not all ~erfect like the "inis-r::er of Lane's and Forests (!·1r .. ~!organ) . I·!R.DINN: The majority of them are. "? .THOMO:: The majority of them could well be, I do not know. I ca.·mot speak for all the councillors.

I knew most of the councillors in my own district. ~~o"t of their are prP.sidents of the P~ part'l- The~ are all en the PC party executive, ~~at is Hear, hear! ~P • '!'P.Or'!:.s : ----- For ~ornehoCy to get up in this F.ouse a.LC to ttoJist anr.. turn our words into sa~rint; ::.i"-.e.t. ~,e are 32.ying t...'1at <·re ra.ve had councillors, un.;;crupulous councillors, cannot go unchallengec. t:ow , I g~ess, the minister is obviously Loarning fro:m ':he President of th~ rct:ncil 'rlho ~~as that knack of being able to t.,.vis t t-r~at ~iOU 5ay anC tun it aroun~ a...."'"\C make it sr:n1rd as if it ;.:ere sorr.et...~irLg r..!.se. saic' that I am against the :;>rinciFle tr.at gl.ves a tc-wn ccunc.:il the ~rsoJ~.Jt~ aut~crity ~o qo i:1 - Cne ti!"'P i~ r-ta~ i] legal to pic!-'"::t.:'OCket so you ':1ur~g "':~~rr. 'Jo yo'C.. r..;a..~t '1273

.;H-2 I Co ~o~ ca re who ~ ~cug ~t !t in or la« . ~at is you:::- onl:t• ar<;n:lllent aga:.nst it and you have been .u:guing ':.~a:: all t.~ouc;~ c.~:.S c!eba ce - we !'lave :o l eave i!: t.'!e:re ~ecause 1.:: has ~ een ':.~ere ~'!!ore. Sut c!o not fo r get t.'tat this is

an act to cannot t''!Vise because i1: has' !:leen t..'ter'! he fore . Z am ac;a.i:~st the pri::ci ple t.'".at gi·re s .:.'te a!::solute aut.'torit:'! :o a '::c<>m council, without notice, to shut off water. That is what I am against . I an- not against t!'>e town council!ors.

I cu:1 ~ot say~"l'i t.!'ley are all 2c!. ! am not say i:~c; they are all good. lo!e have sotne excellent - some are better ~an ot'!:e-""5,.. the r e is :10 auestion about t:.at.Puc the tt'inist.cr gets 'l!? r::d in a ve-ry emotional - ! exp.actec! ::o see tears cot""--e strPamins ~rom her eyes, :tou know, a!r.".ost :-:""Jing ~ecause ·lie '"ere rra.'<it~<; a vicious attac.~ , Ne are :'lOti •.-e are vi~.icusly at'::acl'.i.'\g a :repressiv'! ~:.ece cf legislation.

T!".at is what ~ ·e a.re vic ious ly atca &.in g er.c! it desen-es to .!:le acta-::<e<' a..,c! ! ·n~! attac!: a:o.'! ot.i1er J.ec:·~-~lat:!.or. ~"'a--": ycu t.::v :o =-at7 C()1.o~ cu::- - ~~oacs Sl,c"l as :~.:..s. ?c-: :o·.·::'l. -coun~!.llors ~.3 su·--:.". ~.:~at t ,.:un at:..acki:1s a~~ ~~il:. : .:o ~oc ~!.::~ :.s -c..~s ;:ar ~i.c~lar secti..o-r. c: ~e ac:.. 'i::C ~!.l I :Jr l!s!-::i:-.g :or : r:-.au ~·t:-le) • ? . :--·-::·:s: . ,. __ ~· .. l ":

vecember 7, 1979 Tap e No. 1702 MR. THOMS: minister. I will challenge her to get Hansard and see anywhere, in anything that I said, .C:1ich .:.ndicates in any way, shape or form, that I said anything derrogatory about our town councillors. They are a great bunch of volQ~teer people, except in some circumstances_ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ NM - l MR. "THOMS: - like Gander, where the mayor ceased to be a fully volunteer person,as I noticed in the paper this morning. And do not stand up and tell me that town councils will net cut off water.

I worked in the minister's home town for the Newfo~,dland Light and Power in this Province. ! worked there during the Summers as a student. It was my job to cut off people who had not paid their electricity bill. And I did it, day after day after day. And you tell me that people will not do it! Of course town councils will do it. Of course they will use what is in the act. You should try reading some of the other acts in this Province. If some of t!1.e people knew what ur.bridled authority they have they could ma~e life pretty miserable.

Read some of our wildlife acts, see the authori i:y that is given to game wardens •,;ho can go on ~~e rivers withou~ any warrant, without anything, can bash in the door and take a look around. You know, there is authority given to the game wardens that is not given tc t!:le RCMP, or the E<oyal Newfoundland Constabulary. Pieces of legislation that went throu~h this ~ouse, and pieces of legislation that I am going to speak out on as long as I am a member. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The han. Minister of Mur.i=ipal Affairs and Housing. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairw~n. we could talk on this particular

article 1 I supp ose ,for two or three days if ::he han. ger,t.Leman '"anted to, and I am quite hap;:>y to. But I would like to clarify a few points and I th~nk my han. colleague, the Minister of Consumer Affairs and ~~e 2nvironment W.rs . Ne•,;h,)ck) for the: very pertinent reinarks she made. The han. gentleman who just spoke, I have to admit, perhaps did not ·i-275

December 7, 1979 Tape No. 1702 NM - 2 "t-1<. WINDSOR: clearly indicate that he had any fears that councils would act in an irresponsible manner. The hon. member ror LaPoilc (Mr. Nea=y), however 1 stated a different case 1 he talked all about the poor little children who were going to be without 1.1ater and all of these things. Other than that he said very little, although he took quite some time in doing so. Mr. Chairman, I ·•ould like to point out a few tnings. The hon. gentleman from Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) made some very pertinent points and I thank him for bringing ~p these points.

They are concerns that many individuals have expresed to me and to the department over th.e years. However, you know, you have to look at some of the facts I think. First of all 1 what is the difference between a water and sewer utility system, which it is, or a light and power utility system, or a celephone system? If you do not pay your bills for electricity your electricity is turned off. If y ou do not pay your phone bill your phone is turned off. If you do not pay your oil bill they do not bring you any more oil. If you do not pay your grocery bill you are not going to get any groceries.

It has to be looked at in context. Now a countil here is operating a utility. It has a responsibility to all the other users of that utility to ensure that everybody who receives benefit from it indeed says a fair share. Now,there is adequate provision against hardship in this particular piece of legislation, in tne existing piece of legislation. beca 11se there is no change. First of all as my colleague quite correctly pointed out, persons receiving social assistance benefits, their water and sewer rates will be paid by the department, so there is no burden on these people.

And as my colleague also pointed out, persons who for other reasons, s:er:1aps, find not only the water and sef.ver tax, but municipal taxes in general a= a har5ship,indeed have the opportunity under this act ~o appeal t o t heir co~ncil~ I a~ not about to stand herA and ·12713

--- - -------~--- Cecember 7, 19i9 '!'ape No . 702 • !·I - 3 MR. W!NDSOR: suggest that our councils are not responsible enough they are, and they have used this, responsible enough to suggest remission of taxes. And I have signed hundreds and hundreds of them. The only change in this particular piece of legislation is now the minister will. no longer be required to sign them. we are giving the council. the authority. SOME E!ON. MEMBERS.: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: And I have never refused to sign one, Let me make that very clear_.

At any point in ti.lne, ~ my preqecessors., I am sure,at any tillle that any mtUlicipality, any council. in this Province wrote to the Minister of Municipal Jl-ffairs and suggested that a person's taxes should be either written off or reduced, then I am sure I have never refused one . rt has always been there and municipalities have been using it. The only change now is that they have the ·12?7

--------- December 7, 1979 Tape 1703 PK - l Hr. 'Nindsor: right to ~o it without reference to the minister. rlnd so they should because we think that they are very responsible. We think that councils in this Province are coming of age. We think that this particular piece of legislation is a very forward piece of legislation which will foster that. Because we have been living under a system since 1949 that was fine for the day, but it is outmoded now and we need to have more forward legislation, as this particular piece is, which allows municipalities to grow further. Now, Mr.

Chairman, as it relates to notice, the han. gentleman's amendment is certainly a very rational amendment,. and I cannot C:isagree with the pri."'ciple that he is putting forward here, that a person should indeed have some notice. And I submit, as my han. colleague did 1 that they do indeed have notice, that they have received bill after bill, after bill, and very, very few water services are cut off '"hen taxes are less than a year in arrears. And I would suhnit that a year's billings for tax arrears is due notice. Nevertheless, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman suggested six months. That is not a bad thought.

However, I would like 1 just for the record, to clarify a point,that municipalities in this Province have water and sewerage regulations. And I have here a copy of the water and sewerage regulations for the Town of carbonear , for thehcn. gentleman's benefit, and let me read Section (7), it saysr ., "The Cou."'lcil shall have the right to refuse or suspend service from the system to customers whose bills for water rates, sewerage rates or service charges remain unpaid for more than ninety days after the date rendered. In 0cher words, they must be in arrears by ninety days.

They have three months notice at least before water is turr.ed off." SOME HON. M&~ERS: Hear, hear! ~!R. WINDSOR: So tne hen. gentleman's point is a valid one. Yes, indeee they should have notice. I e.gree ·ohcleheartedly. I submit, however, t~tey do indeed have notice,. As a rr1atter of course no council in this Province walks in on a day that a bill is duE and payable or becomes overdue e.nd cuts off ·,;ate!:", ic is always at

December ' , 1979 Tape 1703 PK - 2 :1r. Windsor: least, a year in arrears, And !1evertheless the regulations require that they must at least be ninety days and I submit, Mr. Chairman, it is eminentlyreasonable. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT): ::-JR. NEARY: The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Chairman, I will deal with the han. minister shortly but I want to cqme back to another minister speaking on behalf of the government who got up and said that she was distressed, very distressed over the arguments and the proposition that was being put forward by the Opposition. Well, M:r.

Chairman, we could not care less if ministers or government backbenchers are distressed or not. Whether they ar-= shocked, whether they are on the brink of breaking down and weeping, we could not care less. The han. minister, trying to draw attention to her agrument, trying to make it sound forceful, tells the House she is distressed. Well, now I say, that is too bad. I am sorry. I am sorry the han. minister is distressed. That is rather unfortunate. I feel sorry fer her. The han. minister might have felt distressed when she was Mayor of the Town of Gander. She might feel distressed, ~I.

Chairman, about demonstrations out in front of Confederation Building. But ~~ere is nobody, but nobody in this Province who says to the han. minister that she has to sit in this tiouse. And if she feels distressed or distraught,then I would suggest there are remedies that the han. minister can take. Mr. Chairman, it is not very often, Sir, that a lot of the members on the government benches say anything at all. They are all sitting over there mute, they seem to have been silenced. They are no.t allow to speak on amendme!lts or an bi.lls or in debate in this House. They are not allowed~ They have been silenced!

You do not have to bmv to me, Your Honour, when you are going out. ·1279

~ecember 7, 1979 'l'3pe 1703 !?!< - 3 Mci so, Nr. Chairman, I would put: the hon . ~:::. Neary: !~mister of Consumer .<1.ffairs (Mrs. )lewhook) ! .. t\ that category. .\nd :or t.'le hon. Ml.=ster of consumer A.ffairs,al:love any other minister = cl:us liouse 1 c~ gee up 4nd 1%1Ake the !'oolish, sll~y sca.:emencs that: the ca.ulister made , The Minister of Consumer Affairs, Mr. C!lairlr.an, t.•.rists- well, the remarks could only be the work of a convoluted , ~wisted mind or eit:hel; thac, Mr. Chairman, the hon. minister is stupid. .U'I HON. MEMBER: Shame !

MR . ~Y: You can excuse people in ~his House and outside t.'le House , for that: matt:er , for anything. You could almost ~xcuse them from anything except: st:upidity. Nobody car. be excused !or belJ\9 t.ha.t st:upid, for arguing the prir.ciple of a clause of this bl.ll.

December 7, 1979, Tape 1704, Page 1 -- apb ~R . NEAR'! : and the minister gave her colleague an out, got up telling us how distressed she is and says, 'Oh, we are attacking councillors'. I punched in more time on a council before breakfast than the minis~er did when she was mayor of Gander. I went out and I drove a truck and a front-end loader to tr~ to build roads on Bell Island when we had no money in the treasury. And the han. lady gets up and tells us she is distressed MR. YOUNG: (inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman, on weekends and on holidays, when the hon. the member for Harbour Grace (Mr.

Young) was over living it up, sponging off us -we were over there fairly '#el.l off - coming over - we were offering him our hospitality he did not seem to appreciate or enjoy, holidays and weekends. And then the hon. minister gets up and tells us she is distressed. As I say, Sir, there is a remedy ·for that and if the han. minister feels like she is going to br~ak down and cry or weep, then I would submit that Southern climes may look awfully tempti 'ng this time of t h e year. MIL CHAIRMAN (Baird): Are we on the amendment now? ~lR . t-IEARY : Yes, we are on the amendment, Mr. Chai rma n . SOME SON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. NEARY: It is nice to see you back, Sir . I am sorry you found yourself in an embarrassing po£ition and I hope the Speaker will straighten chat matter aut in due course. MR. THOMS: !listory will be kind. MR. NEARY: Oh, history will be kind to the Chairman, I am sure. But, Mr. Chairman, then the han. Minister of Municipal Affairs taking consolation,

=eceober 7, 1979, Tape 1704, ?age 2 apb Mit. :-I!:ARY: taki~g a cue from t~e warped and ~wisted remarks of the Minister of Consumer Affairs, who ~s supposed ~o be pr~tecting the consumers of :his ?rovince, whether it be electr~city, whether it be wa~er and sewerage - we know now where the minister stands on matters of consu~er affairs - the Minister oi Municipal Affairs gets up and quotes from regulat1ons of ~he town council in Carbonear to try to embarrass my friend the member for Carbonear (Mr. R. Moores ) for the points that he made yesterday. ~~d aga1n, Mr.

Chairman, ! have to say that the minister tried to twist and :urn the regulations in the town of Carbonear, because a:l these regu lations say, and I made enough of them ~n my time, all these regulations say is th't the town council cannot act to cut the water off for ninety days . Sut that does not necessaril? mean that they have to give the notice. :~?.. :.;r ~OSOR: Do not be so EoolJ.sh. Jo not be so patroniaing. ( Inaudible). ~1! it says, Mr. C~al.r~an - the arrogant ~1nister oi ~unicipal A~fairs got up quot~ng !rom ~he regulations saying, "Tha town council in C3r~onear cannoc act for ninety days '' . :1~ .

YOUNG: :1R. S:!::ARY: :i.fteen oonths. They ~a~not act ~ut tha t does n~c ~ean c~a~ che~ qive the ind~v~cual ~ot~ce. D~ring :hat nine:y cays ~t may b~ just a bill gone out . . ~P.. :H ~oso~: :-tR. !>lEARY: ( inaudibleinotice . ! spent more time en the town counci 1, r •.rould say, than all the me;nba~:s on ~hat side of ~ne House put together. I got a c;ood !:ound atto;-a and 3 gooc:! !)<>.cl<grou;-ad when ! was ·.ri::h the ! vas, twice, ?res:.:ient of t!la :e~eratlo;-a ~f ~3yo rs an~ Munic~pa~it1es, in case the 1282

Dece m.b c!" 7, 9i9, Tape 1704 , ? a g e 3 - - a pb MR. NEARY: hon. g ent l e man does :1 01: know i t. SOME HON. MEMBERS: oh, oh! MR. NEARY: That is right. And did a good job and built u.p the organization - MR. MORGAN: will believe you. MR. NEARY: Nobody else did so, we I got elected twice and nobody attacked me about starving cattle down in Bo.navista. And nobody ~ould accuse me of sitting by in a criminal way and watcning the forest of this Province he devastated by the spruce budworm and do.ing nothing about it. MR. MORGAN: programme. MR. NEARY: that. MR..

MORG·AN: You opposed the spray Nobody could accuse me of (inaudible) opposed the spray, the bon. gentleman did and all his colleag~es. lotR. THOMS: Is the minister going to speak in this or is he just going to sit there and yap all day? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I would submit to your Honour that if the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) who be - the m-ember for Bonavista South, Sir, is like a little cracky in a saus~ge factory, he does so much yapp ·ir.g. :1R. T!!

CM3: s •b b u :-neci . ~I !L MO RGA N : ~i s to ngue is going to ~ e t Yo u have b een ra pp ing :o r ~he la st t h r e e d a ys an d you kee p making a focl o f you :'s elf . :1R. ':.':tOJ.:s: If th e s u n c o me s ou o:: h s ~ ongu e ~ s ; o ing -~ se~ s un bu= ne d . :-!:? . • ~ E: .'L"t'i : ::!: shoul<3 go out .1nd play w1t~ his spruc2 burlwo r m,

Decembe r 7, !97 9 , Tape l 70 4, Page 4 3.pb ~R _ ~E:>.RY: C!e loves me not. MR. :-!ORGAN: saying, 'He loves me, He loves me, he loves me not •. You have been yapping for the last seven years and s~ill in opposition.

.;;\·, - 1 Should :~e cio someting a.oout the srr'..lce ~uJ.,vorr., ::;nculd v1e 1.ot? Should ~a do some'tninc; a.l:out it, S!lvuld v-·ca not? Crder, ) lease! I would remind t.'l.e ilOn. me:nber of tnti! r'.llto! of So, Mr. Chairr.~, the ;~inister of ;"luniciJ?al ;..£fa.:.rs and r;ousing Ci·::::. \vindsor) c!.ic not counter tne ,e:o~oerful a.rgUir.en t taat .1.as cotne fron: tai~ aiL..~ c£ o~e t ... ouse, tha':. ~!'lis amendr:-~t:r..t .;lloulci ;.:,e approved uy thi3 i..e·.;~:3lai:ure.

Scmeho~; or other, 2·lr.. t_ .. !.a.i,.r=an, ~lis crowd 'Ori, Loy, 1rie ~1av: :..rougi:lt cle~ocracy co .:lewfouncilan~, we have .orougl1t ciemocrac, to tnis o.ouse •, ~l!t: it seer.~s to be all one-sided. Yes, it is all on t.~s sice. ·,..ell, that n•a.:t ::Oe true. Oh, oil! ~~he brought it in'? ·-·· ..:) . :_.-._".:.: CJH, on! .:. . .• =.; .... -."!.: ., ........ h.':. t ,1285

U~cer.ber 7, 1979 'l-'\::e .io . 1705 .:..~; - 2 t."'lat: tle ·.-;ould approve of. If ;·:e keep c;oing "'ith this sort of thing we .,ill nave t.'le rea anc green ballot::; :oext. >·1e just saw an example of where a member got eJected ···ho was not a resident of this Province,and cia not quit nis job until he got elected. ~e took leave of absence to run and then went and ~uit his jab after. h:1at is the l':ini5ter o·f Justice doing about that? !!R. ;, • :u:,.RS Hl' LL : A point of order, ltr. Chair!"an . :~R.

C.hAIRNAii: (B;;.IRD) A paint of orCer h~s carne t:.p, 'li1e Jo40n .. ?re5ident of the Council. ~·1R •• ; • LtARShALL: Tr,e :1on. l!'.emter. is being irrelevant. t::e can cry his crocodile tears but he can cry t...~er:- at oD.o~·~·~!:'" poi:rt in tir.:~. And tl1e fact ·::>f the matter is, ·,;e are tal.idng about an amendment to ~e ,·!unici,tOalities Bill. :m. Chrl.IRHJI.:-1: (SAI?.

D) On the point of orC.er,: ·waulC re.m.i..nt~. t:-,e "'on. T.e!l'ber :or C.aPoile (Mr. tleary) that ;,e are discussing t~e a:;;:~,.enJir.ent: cllld ~o :..:ee~ ~1is conunent to t.uat .. 'Ih.ere .:.s little junior ~t,:,~~e.lni. c:an manage to get a few· words in des9ite t:he fact t!lat tit~ 7overnment h-?ve trieD. to muzzle the. Ui:"'positicn in this session of t..;..,.e h011se by ;r'.avins - ~ver.£­ ~lilJ.Sf out of ~gislac.ure into t.i.le aun.-;con~ and int:.o t.J.'-le ~ac~ root:~~ of cuniader:i.ticn ~.al.C..:..:1gs w:c. ot.1er Luilcillgs d.!:'CJunU ;:)r .. Joan • s. :,o\V, ~·'r.

Chai.t71cn, the ~1inister of (·~t:nici;'a1 n.ovcc ar1 a.n.e.n~.ent t.:..J.t ~ac.J:.:le ~e s;iv~n, si;..~ r.:or:b.ts ncc.icc, i11 Nritir~<J -efcrc -..:ug in, t.~'l.et· are :~ot li:;~::ning to !'eascr., t~H:;:z" ;lave :...ecom~ 2.~r0~ant. i·.!1.C.. i= :.~..e:r are not issui:-..g an altima.c.u: .. to sa.7~ei:..oC.:l ·n: 3.tC.3.c-~.:..r.-:; Jttd'tlr'a or tcl~:ing .:..vout off;;:tore ::il. tl~ey o....c :;ot :,.;,a.r.t to :·.~il!: a.c-o1..4t ar..J'l: .. ~i:-.s;. :..ictl~ ·1286

1.;.1 '":' ... _ ... . or ~ ;.pe .• o. 1705 :Jil - 3 is very wortnwhile ar.d sometlling tilat t:.ae <:ouse sirould consiC.er. The i·!ini;;t2r of Education (:ls. Verge) , the WCll'.ai;I' s li'f:-.iJer who thinks t:hat injustices in our scciet:y :>houlC. ;;e elil!'.in.a:c.ed 1•ilc is t.'l.e old freedom fighter nerself 1 I. did net heai the minister get up and eXJ,iress a view on tllis

section of ths Act, .,,here if a municipality wanted to t.'ley could ;oend the st:orm croo?ers in,as tne city of St. John's is doing now 1 ana cut off people's water without giving t.hem notice. And that is ;1ot good enougi1, 1~..r. l.hairmar. 1 I de not care how long :128'7

:;ece~er 7, 1979 Tape 1.706 EC - l :IR. NEARY: is on tGe sta~utes of ~~is Province. There are all kinds of laws on ~~e statutes ~at I cisagree ~ith, ~ut ~~e only way we can get a crack at ~~em, get a chance to debate ~~em and get ~~em ~~anged is when ~~e government introduces bills and legislation in t.us house. .'uld that is the only way we can get a era~~ at t.~is p~rticular clause of the agreement. It is not - and I repeat - not an attack on •;olunteers, on town oou••cillors or mayors in ~~is Province • . '\nd if the r..ember for G.ir.der, ~.,_e Minister of Consumer Affairs (Mrs.

L<ewhook) feels distressed, t.~en ~~e hon. minister who spoke in a convoluted fashion, twisted and distorted what was said on tb.is side of the House, ~"-en ~'le hen. minister may need a little holiday. Maybe the strain in tile neuse is teo great for ~'cle minister. Maybe the minister should step down and let tile member for Bay of Islands (Hr. Woodrow) - oh, C!e is not in his seat; he would be verf happy to know that I am recommending him for a Cabinet position. He has been by-passe:> now too long. So, Mr.

C~airman, is very worthwhile just to ta.\e a few minutes on t.'lis - and the Minister oe Lands and Forests (Hr. Morgan) who has destroyed the frovince ·...-i th the spruce budworm, now is bucking for ~tinister of Fisheries. He wants to beco~ Minister of Fisheries.

Well, I tell you, it will be a sorry day for ~~e fishe~J and for t>e•...-foundland if t.~e Premier ever made dlat minister the !-linister cf Fisheries. 3e ~oes out to ~~e news media aud he says, 'Lao~, I am silenced oy t:1e Premier; .i cannot vollll'lteer any statements, ::>ut ask me t.'1i.s and : ·.-~ill have to gi-ve you the answer. ' 30/clE LiON • o!EMBEP.S : :!R. :lEARY: That is t.'-l.e tec.~ni.c:ue ::e uses. ll-= get:. up and tried to suck iu w~~' t~e oress th~ o~~er dav. Order, ;:lease~ :1r. C:-:..airmar., •,.-e ar-: suppor~i..:.:..;:; ::..:.1.s .·:?.. :·IO r .. Gi-.i; ~ ·l2SS

Jec~mber i, 1979 ~·!R. .J AL·UESON: :·L"\. OiAIRI1A<.'I: (Baird) of ~~e 0pposition. SOME HON. :1ENBEBS : }!R. JA.'1IESON: Tape 1706 EC - 2 A point cf order, Ar. C~ai~. A point of order, ~~e non. ~~e Leader Oh, oh! I have no quarrel if ~1e non. gentlemen want to tal:< back and for~1 across the ':iouse, but ~'le fact of the matter is that we are trying to make progress on ~~is bill and it serves no useful ,?Urpose to have the hon. ~~e member for Bcnavista 3outh (Hr. :·!organ) interjecting constantly all along ~~e line. 3011E EON. ::E..\lBERS: MR. lo\ORGAN: 1·1."<. QiAIFMAN: Hear, hear~ Mr.

Cllairman, to that paine of order, The hor,. ':he !!\ember for 3onavista Sout."l. Mr. Chairman, I was sitcing here doing my work and minding my own business when tbe non. gentleman involved in debate was asking for interaction - begging for it, begging for interaction. If ~~e hen. gentleman, being involved in debate, were relevant to what ~"le subje::t is, I WOLlld no1: be i.nt~=acting across the ~~cuse. 'T'~ere is ~o ;:oi:1t of order, ~r. c~airman. :-IR.

OIAIR.~I: Order, please~ 0n ~he point of order, ! would like to remind all l'!on .. gen1:.lc!nen t..~at 'Ne are discussing t..,_e amendment W1d I '"'auld like t."lem to keep L"\eir comments to the amendment. I·!R. :reARY: Thank you, 1·1:~. C.~ainr~n. S~.r, ir.. conclusion, I would again lik~ c.o say how :uuch I appreciate the remarks made by t~e han. ":..'i.e :.:e:r'ber :or GanC.~r ()irs. ~~ewhcok). I am awfully sorr; ~o hec:.=- t...'--:.at s~1e is so =.ist..:--:s$CO ao.out t_:-,e co!Mler ... ts from t.""lis siCe of ~~e !iouse. I mean, what s;!c ·Ud w~ ·ic, :1::-. C.~air~n? ~'Je are in y~ur :lands.

Sho~ld we not C:eba..t..e? 3hQ\lld we ~us-: si~ he=e ~utc, silenced, like all the goverr.menc ~a~~ench~=s ~~ci ~nist:=s on t.~e gover:unenc .:;ide of t:.'le !icuse: <:.nC: not say any~."li:og? ,;nc; .;,very tine wa 3a~ so~e~~ing, some ~inister over ~ere i3 going to ~e~ Ois~C352C? I would like to ·near f.=orr. t.:."'le :.tini3tc= 0£ ~ducation (:ts Verge) or:. t..~is pa.rti.cul3.r rr,attc!.·. ':!.he :1on. minister ::d.s ;one ·1289

MR. NEi\...'<Y: ;-!R. THOMS! allowed to speak against it. MR. <'lEARY: :::c - 3 any notice - She cannot speak for it and she is not No, she· is not allowed to speak against it. And, I mean, you cannot pick and choose the causes yo·u want to crusade. Is that what the hon. tb.e Minister of Education (Ms Verge) is doing, piclting and choosing the causes she wan-r.s to crusade? Well, l'U:.Clairman, I would say that is being very, very intellectl,lally hypocritical.

I hope the tl!inis't:er to~ill get up and make a contribu ·tion to this debate and support our amendment, the amendment being - What is the amendment? '11le amendment, Mr. Olairman, is that no council be given the authority, whethe.r they are all saints on that council - they may be all saints - that they not be given the · aut.'-lori ty to cut off people's water without giving them six months' notice. ·}290

you will ce only acle ~c c~~ of: h~l f o£ it. ~at i.s :-igh.t. : ·~onc'er \olha~ r.apr.ens, :-tr. S?eake:-, 1.1ncer the :1at:i:r.onial ?rcper.:y Bill, ···he :-e :ifty :;;.er cent '!'!':e amE;;ncilt:er.t shc>~lcl carr!. !!'i.-lister !':as seer. tne:-i t in it. I am <!.'.·!ult~· sorry t."la<:. t~ ttell'.l.er !cr ~ar.cer is dis~essed. I wish t.~e hon . ~inis~er was ~r. he r sP.a~ so I cculc! <;i•.re :J~r a Hctle bit of :at.' lerl/ acvice. T~e hon . ~inister 1.~ ~o~ ~!':~~ anc i~ is a sh~. The ~on. ~ir.iscer ~ace a :riniscer :or anyt.~ing.

Yo~ coulc' :orgive a riniscer :or ~a~k:U?tir.g ti:-e I ,....,ulc! :.ire to :emi nc t."e ll'.eJT.l::e:- to :~eep !':1. '> c..-cr.c-er.ts to tl".e amencmcnc to 131 . The third ti:rP. £s always lucky, :.t~ . ·r-;-:."1!. -- ---

l'i') ~ t,•i:::. :he ~o!'l. :=.!. ~is te : c;e ~ u: anC .:el 1• ~ we a.:e ac;ai:ls~ :cwr. cccr.ci!lors, co give a li ~cle ancou:asemen~ anc ! litt le ammur.icior. to ~e r col!ea.<;ce? ::e 4'iOC up t.."le!'l aoC he capitalized on i :. r:-n~ :!!..:U..st!!:" o= Lands and Forests (::r .::o:-c;i; n) •..;rill be up shortl~ sa~ ing the s=.e t.'lat, only a t'..;riste c mi.":d. '.Ve o.re not attacl:inq the a:ayor:; an~ t :::copers .wit': c u't nC'tl.

Ce to cut of= \-:ater. 1: was on a council - ! !:>elieve !. ': wa:; =i ve counc:.ls! ·~ ao; on - t."tere were not a1...:ays thE saJJ1e l!'~!l'~rs - ar.e we ~ae m<;!C'l:er s o n t.':ac council .,.,he would !'ice ~':ere ':o restr ain the~ . t!le sue. Hu:-.ar. nature is no t alike , ~·=. Chait:" an . ~~ ~on . :ni:liste r -ro•tince anc n<:~ t conclell' n t.':em, no'.: lea•·e th~ w!.de OFe:'l !or abuse as -=he hen. tr.b;.sce r die. ~o, l'lr. C'.ai ::Ia.":, we ::.c ~e ~':ac :..":e qo ve~~ rr~nt i:1 it~ wisdo~, Sir, •,·ill se e tr..at e..~is ~nette~c ::1a.1tcs .. · ... ... -.... ~ I • 1292

----------- December 7, 1979 Tape 1708 PK - 1 :1r. ~!arshall: replacing the word "community" wherever it occurs, and it is struck out and replaced by the ~rd "municipality". And that amendmer.t will be to

Section 257 (2), so that particular Subsection will now read, "Where a notice of intent is to be published by the Minister under subsection (1) that directly affects a municipality, the Minister shall give prior notification of his inten~ to so publish it to the council of that municipality." You l··ill r:ote that the Nord "municipality" rei;)laces "community" it is a technical amendment. MR. CHAIRMAN (BAIRD): MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. R . MOORES: Shall the amendment carry? On motion amendment carried. Clauses 261 to 270. The han. member =or Carbonear. Mr.

Chairman, I wish to speak on this because there is a community in my d~strict that is directly involved in trying to establish a community council at this t~e. And I am going to be positive in making this suggestion to the minister/ that is what happened now in this day and age with communities being,as they are,wit!:l extra curricular activities being as they are, lt is vary, very difficult to organize and establish a community council by the process of a public meeting.

I know of instances where well-intentioned residents of a community in my district want to establish a community council to ~enefit and bet~er the community in which they live. However, because most cf the labour force in that communi~y is transient, it is a most difficult situation to try to establish or try to organize a yublic meeting that will involve these t~ansient worker3 1 many of th2m who work in St. John's or other parts of the Island and canr.ot get home to a mid-•,.eek. public meeting or if that meeting is held on the weekend I am sure have ether priorities and other things to do.

My suggestion to the minister , and it is a positive one, is that he take a second look at this particular clause, the cla~se that says "ThAt the community council shall be organized by ;. public :neeting, ' a:1d include in that clause,"or i:Jy circulating a 9ecition

oecember 7, 1979 Tape 1708 PK - 2 Nr. R.

Mooree: in che community." A pecic ion, as :ar as I IIlli conc erned, and it l s enshrined u you li.'<e, th~ pn.nciple o f ile !"-.ave a procedure on our Ord ~ ?aper that has been recoq:1ized 1 r ·..-ouUI dare say, since lSSS, ::hac ow: residem:s have the righc. to yetition us <Wd to bring to our attention by tha t process any principle or problem or concep t that they Eeel we should resolve or fay ac--ention ~ - llow I would lil<e the minister co merely include cP~t 1~ addition ~o - ! am not a~kLnc; hLm ~o delete or ~a'<e away che option of a public meet1nc; - but L~ aedlt~on to c.~~c. 1f che c r~ac.1.zers . .,ho '"'anc to establish tile counc1l wish to they can call a public :nee1:inc; "hereby SO pe:. cent plus one of th~ residents of tha·t co=unity mu:st sic;n che petition 3J'..j prese..,t J.t to tile minister for ru.s declsJ.on . do not till!l.lt it 1.s ac U.: unreasonable.

And ! assure tne minister c!lat J.t :1.s :-~o t my i.-,een=on co be negacive in this matter, co be critical just for ~~e sal<e of beinc; cric.ical . As : sa:!.d befc re ,I ~~ve a commun.1.ty, the commun.1.c.y o! :resh•...ater .:.n :ny Cistzict, which !.s :;cw coniront.erl. co this 'le..ry aj~f'ic~t. problem .

Tbey cannot: have a pl!blic meeting. rhey have nad o~e already, and abouc 20 per cenc of c.he populat.ion turned out:, and che real ::-eason ft, r t!lat. '"'a3 because ::he:e very ::-arel;r lS :nore C:.an oO ?er c~nt: of t.ha population Ln ehe communJ.t.y, except on ~ weeker~ when t.he men, and .in some cases , some · ... omen come home 1 29 -~

~ecemoer i, l9i9 Tape No. l i09 ~!R. :-IOORE:S : you shou~d ~er~ously look ac w~a::. ! have always respdcced 1 mysel! the idea of a petiuon :ax more t..'1an a ?u.blic meeu.nq. r ttave seen public tneec.:.rtgs ;;nd ! have had t.ht!lll i""fSelf 1</here t.hey h~ve been nothing but counter produccive and not. at all represencae~ve of ~~e real interests and concerns o~ the community. ~ereas : believe , when a :nan is gi.van tan or fifteen minuees · .. ith a !;ll!ti :J.on, and he reads it. , and :a1.r play is given :~.•.·· , I chink he can make a saeisfaceory decision, i£ (lOt. more than ho ·,rould at. a public meeting where he is being prodded by his neighbour, or forced to publicly convey a thought ~~ae he may nee wane to do if he were gJ.ven ::!le opporv.Lttity ;>rivacely. you cak e a serious look at tills. ! suggest., Mr.

Minister, ~~at :.m. C!:iAillMAN (sa; "'O) : :1R. ~.~.'UESON: Thank you, very mucn. The hen. :.eader of ~"le Opposit.lon. In ::he same s;an.e 1:1 • .. h.!c~ .:!:te hc.n. member has just spoke."\ 1 ! ,;ould ~.:..ke co support oi:n ~n t:."ti.s. ?rom experience agai:~, cl·'le problem in che ;;illage in which : lJ.ve, for in seance, is vircually c..>te same as ::he one out a ned by the <nember :or Car !>on ear (otr. Moores) , excepc t.hz..c it ls even worse l.n th.a sense that.

I would ::t.ink chac 9erhaps at this momenc, although ~~ey may be coming home Eor Chrisc . .-·nas now, t!\ac perhapc :'ifty pe:- cer.t of th01 adult. males, =•:>r instance, :he householders, in clle community are away sometimes ~or a5 lon~ as five and six monr.~s.

I could, and 1 de ~oc ~h~~ I n~ee to , remJ.J'ld tr.e hen. :nJ.oJ.s;:e.;:-of t:he :na.ny e::orts-! have ~een l<r.own,! qt:cess, for !.one;'!: ;:.han _ ;,.c·.·e had ~"/ o:.."'\a!: tJ.cle. as t..~e unc!!ic~a~ !tayor ~= 5wi!~ C~I=nc, ~~C ~e ~eason =~~ ~ac 4S chae ~~ l5 :~r ~he =easons cna~ ~~e ~on. memOe~ :or Car~cnear has ~a~:1,~ed, ~~~~ ~c ~s e~~~ec~~gl? ~:::~c~lt :o ;et ~ reprase~tacion and a :ross sec~on ~n ~,at ~~nd of way.

:ecemher ~. 1979 :'3pe llo. li09 liM - 2 ?L~. JAMIESON: Now the petition seems to :ne to bEl some !<i."1d oi an in ~et:Ween 9¢Sicion. I do not know ···hec.'ter - it is probably too much to go much beyon~ that. But it ce~aL"'lY would be a o:e..ry gooe, I thuuc:, it :seems to me, alternative ;::::. our opt:.on, ·.rhichever you '..iant to ~all !.t , oo l:..'"le ?ubll.c meet .ing. In fact,r support also the ~de a of oe ~~cion ove r a public meeti::g . Eere r am not speaki::g about my own collllllunity .

But ! do i<now also that "..iht!n it is a public meeting that there are, and have been cases, and I am sure the hon. ati.nister and his predecessors- and I syrr.pat.hize , by the way 1 •..1i::.'1 the'11 on ::his particular issue · but ·..1he:e in :act t:.here has :,een a caJn?aign, 1f you li.l<e. and •.rhe!:e people are very reluctant to.at a public ~eeting 1 in a sense . show what 1:..'1eir true feelings are. Sc I commend this sugges~:.on of my hon . colleague and I do not !<now why ~t cannot be included as an alternat:.ve to the method proposed. Yt.'l.. CHAI:U<IAN (3utt) : and <lo·~slng. ~.

WINDSOR: The hon . ~inister of ~unicipal A!fal.rs <irst of all,: would lL<a to ;ust 3sk a hri.ef q~:estlon of :..1-te hon. Leader ~= the Oppositi.:.n. You are :.alking about establ1sh1ng of comm=~ty councils,! thin.lt,in your remarks. The hon. :nember for Carbon ear (:•.r. :-toores ) was talkJ.ng more a.bo\lt :he election of council s,as 1 ~derstood hlm . !o!R. MOORES : ~-~· W!NDSOR: as · .. ell. No. No,. esl:dbllsi">.J.:'!g . You were tal!<i:'!g about escablisn1:1g sec~icn 159 coes noc ~equire a pee:.~on, ~r a ?ublic ~e~~~g ac all !:;,r commun1ty r.cunci.l.s .

"!ou are looking at now the feasibili.ty acuciy and che ·.rnole sys::em. same as for che eown co<:r.c1l. ! ehir.k you are confcs1ng w~e pubLic ~eet1ng for ~he ?~~se of an eleccion, :or alecc1ng :he co~ci~, ~d w~ac is ~~ere because c~ere 1re a number o : small communiti~s -:.....at ·..ranc it.. And r ~pprecJ._:.r.e ·.rou: =omrneot-s.

Tape :-lo. 1709 ~- 3 :-<.R. :CNDSOR : cer~~n commcn~ty counc~ls, par~icula r ly as it relates to the :'i shing villages, as ~~e non. Leader o f ~~e Opposl.tion (t1.r. J cmieson ) point:ed out , where hls~orically a qreat nu.'llber - par;:;icul.u-ly t.he men in che commun1. ty - are out: of cown :or a long per i od of t~. That: problem we have triee to address in the

section unde r t:.owns •.o~her e we havF.! inser1:ed here the p::o vision for proxy voting which a ccommodate s that problem. Okay? Nhat I point out is t:he only dl!:e r ence in a town and community c ouncil is t:.!le cnet:hod of el.ccti .on a."l.d the :act: that a community counc1.l stands only :or two years :\nd in l!laJ'IY of our smaller communities =:ius is very desirable, chat the !.)eople c. "'ange, they move, whatever , and they !ind t:.."'at i :' ::be cc:mcil stands :or longer than t•.to years clley are c~mu:1uously havi."lg !:>y-e t ections or •.that:eve:. So !. ::. has worked in some of ~es~ small communities ano ::.he publ~c ceecing has ·1297

SD - l ~ :~. :r. 'ii:~:JS-JR: -.~·o.cked -:1ery ~-1ell as ·o't·ell for th~se s:.:all como:uni tics, the .?u..!: lie meeting, the election is !Jy a secret ballot, as was pointed out in t-'1e debate on t.'le .saconc ::-eading. So your ::ear :,.eZi:e t..~a~ a comi!lur..ity sucil as Swift C"..lrrent might be tied ·.1p in t.'lat _?roblem, it is a very simple matter to a3k to become a town.

And I would . s~spect, quite frankly, that we will have a very small n1Jmber of community cour..cils a!ld most of t."'len will 1 ir. fact,be towns and so that chey will be done by t.~e nornal procedures with prmq votes 'ind with, again· for tbe first time, advance _;>olls o:.nd so forth. So, t.f-tese are new provisions t!1at 1 hopefully, will alleviate some of the problems t.'lat the hon. gentleman ~~ite cor=ectly pointed out_ The hen. Leader of ~~e Opposition. !1P. 'J.

JAMIFSO~l: Seeking info=.ation,and it is conceivable I do not understand it .?roperly 1 I :oose a h:Got.hetical ~estion,that in a small community whe~e there is nu organi=ation at the pr.esent time, 3.Iil I correct in saying that the only "'>l:c.y l~ which t!1e~7 C?.n start t!1..: process in motion to ~et a coiTli!luni ty council is a 2ublic meetins? .;n I right in that? Or if I am wrong then I 'N'ill be glad to be cl~ri.=ied. Af.::airs and Housing. _;.;, !.!:. ·==~~-i:::-. .:..:, .:..~~_:-.:; _..J ......... f:!:om .: .. ~ •.• w.~.~.:.r.. .·._,.,;;._._,_ ..... ::. --. , ... -· ....... -·-··- ,__. .....

"-J. c..:._:·.:::. .... .... -..... _ ..... __ , ' . .. . . '-. ~~ ------~...:. ... ----, .... ;.:. :: ~ ~. ··--·~.=.. ~-' .. .: ..• ..:......:;~-==

f~c~ ~1.ac I .:21:.. ~et.t.:.e ~1.at:. .. -J....'-· C::IA!::t!..'\.:i: (Butt) I ~a not ~ ... ·i~h to prolonq it, ~Ll~ I ::ha~ :::: :i.:-.d L; ':~e gap he=~ is that the feasibility study goes ahead, but ir-~ t:1.e ?rocess of it there is an assessment ::lade t~t a lot of ?eoplc in ~"lc . .:or:-.r.".un.i;!::y a.rc o~l-'osE:J. ,~e:ha.p5 !;ecausc t~ney do not understan;J.. I t .. b.in.k in many insta:1ces ':his is ~~e probler~..

So t..1hat ~-..appcns is t:•at _perna<'s even wit.'lou-:: a publi::: meeting or in any other way, ehere :e~d to ~e. fac~ions dev~lop within ~1e ~o~~uni~y anC ~1.e w~ole Lhing sort of ·g'?es by t:~e wayside. Yes.. ~l1is :1as been tradi ~ior..all:l =ne t:1at t:~e COI:\.;.~uissior..ec, who is se~ up 1Nit::l f:.J.ll powers to conC.uct a Public hearing~ c.=.n :"'l-aar representations :!:'om ~~ybod~l :lnd everybod:.t YI:-:u "Nis!"les ;:Q iave sornet.'ling to :;;ay- individuals, ort;a-"li'?:a.t:.on.s .. ·~p:·ou:s, :neeting, b..tt t."lere are public heari!'lgS. -- . ~ · . : -· .-... ..: •• .,., .......... __ '..l

::.•L :> r:::no«: ,;:e.,ition ::..:e :.ll:Uste .-u.y ..;c; , reco~QenCation :o th~ ~ i ~s-e ~. The:~ is ~o ~~as o~ ~~e commissioner .'\:: !-!0 I . : !E:·3E:~: : ;:;;. ~ • .J.:·IDSOR: :s - 3 ' .1'ell ::-eason t.'lat th.e ~r.inis.,e::- cannot go <;own there and spend :=en days :..n ?~lie sessi:::.n expla! ::ung t:..'":e prob cr..s . :L"l. cg;...r~<~.~l: !Buttl .!?. • "-. .'\00;!_"'5 :

!'ape :.o. l7.!.1 cf 1:hose citizens want a cor.~unity council, the minister ~:1?-~', th.is "feasibility study" may not accept tl1at recolllll\enda1:ion. :m .. i. ;,r.;;osoR: Government is not bound to incorporate a co~;;rr.unity. If •,;e have a petition now from 98 per cent of the conununity saying ~~at we want to be incorporated under the present legislation o~ ur.cer new legislation,governrrent is not bound.

But obvio~sly they are ~oing to be guided by it·i: there is that kind of a need, if there is t.~.'lat muc..:, interest in local governir.ent in a parti.::ular area, it is in the inc.erest of boti1 ~'le Province anU: t..:1e comr. . .mi ty c.o :1ave theh: ir.cc.cporate and let them handle their own affairs. Does tl",<:.t answer your '.J:uestion? :•iR.. G~;iiR.'!Ai'i: (BUTT) :u;.. D. JAHILSO~<: 'l:he h;::n. I..eader of the Opposition. I would just like to ask, however, and I so ·~·it.i1 tne greatest of sympathy for any nLinistar who has to make this :...:.ir..d. of C.ecision.It is not tl1.e 98 2er cent - MR.

WINDSOR: It is t:lc 51 :t?er cent. MR. DINN: &>d thP. 29 per cent: - anU: you find that 49 per cent are ccrr.J.:lg a...ld. t!1ey roay be more influential or t£ley r;'ICI.Y be Lr.ore vocal.

As I say 1 I C:o :1.at kno?.t how you can resolve it othar than -;:,-j sort of t:::.e C:er-.ocra:.ic ~rocess, as I guess rr.y friend i1as .saidj a.nd say, • Look, if t..'"ler~ i.; clear evidence tt.~.at a rr.ajorit:t wishes to ~1ave this, t11en t:-1e discretionar; yo'i. .. ·er in a sense takes second place," that is, t..~e r.-inisteri3.l .it.scretionc.ry ?Ower, to the fact t11at th.e evidence ti12.t: a : •. ajorit.:i of ':..l.lel~L, In ot:::er ·.-.or~-5, I ~~J..i.n .. 1..;;, 1:~at if I :nay 1 "Telling my gra:~dmother ho•N" to suck eggs." I all! not arguing this.

Whet I am saying, c: ju.L.ge~.er.t::; ;..ecau.se - cJ.gain ~ can :all ~ac~~ un ~x='er:..ence - :tou as.'--:= .... ~J.e q-:.testion, "'tlhat happened?" Well, Muni::ipal Affaics is not sure, sort of thing. r .. or1~·...:.= if it •.·:cul..: not ,_c : c.t·~ a.C.visu.Dle,i:: :1c~ in ies;isla~ion t:.t..;r. in s~ourH.2 r·..lles 0r -... :~c..~eve:. to 32.-.f i£ i.t. l.s a. fi£ty .t·.;:;rcent .:--l..ls one ,Li.t::!l -.:..:: . .::.

~ecenber 7, 1979 J7n RA - 2 - :•iR. :-1. ;-ii:iDSOR: The hon. gentleman's Faint is ver,; valuable. ·Obviously if t.'lere i3 an overwhelrr-ing desire in t.'le community and the cornn'Oissioner sees cnat and reports tilat, t<'.en t.l1e minister obviouslj will .;e ;ui.::eci '--Y i~- A.tld ;1e .:J,uite clearly points out tiu= ciifficulties wi1en i~ is al~ost a fifty fifty split. And we l1ave a case in i1and w·here w"' have two petitions from one community each I.Jith sixty 2ercccnt of the voters on it. Oh, oh!

Tnat is a very ci.if!'icul t C.ecision then for ti1e minister to u~e. ae has valid petition ~it.h ~ixty percen~ of the voters saying yes,he also has valid one saying no - That is not rr.J <iistri.c-c, - until you corr.:;:>are <::he nai:l<i:s.

And you fine mat some ~:>f the n=es are on tne same one ,and you ask ~:1em ·..:t1y. o1e was o:ii cousin and this guy ;;as my brother, I had to sisn i..ctn of them." So that is ~e weaknes:; with the f-etitio" system. !:e•;ertheless, in t."lat case tne !::epart."!lent of !-lunicipal F.ffairs and r:ousii1g Act does provice "Chat t:"'le minister rr~ay call a refe=endl.lm or a ~le.biscite an any issue in t,.:,e comm\:.llity where he feels ~1ere is a need. And there is nct.:.1ing sto~piny t.'le minister when t.'l.ere is tnat ~inci of a ~alance from saying 1 'i...cok.,, I am nat sur~ ..

Tile comm.iszioner was not .3ure~ he ind.icateG in ni$ report t.1at the£e was a slignt n~jority appeared ,L~t it is not conclusive :\~ot.aing in the 'Ncrld stops t..~e min~st.er from orC.ering a .;;le.:;iscite. .~.:ear, .1e:c::...::-! cou.r.::il. I·r·~..:;l!I'·a.ul_

:~ce . .i.e:r i , :. 979 'I ape .:u. 1711 . 2A 3 constraints and I do not know wha.t opportnnities people would nav~ to nom.ina.te and speak ~or or against a particular person, becauSe I ha.ve seen a nwrber of· cases where ~~e majority of people nave wanted a council, a COirur.Wlity council in a particular co=uni ty 1 and the vociferous minority, so to speak,nave come out and put ~~e blocks to it.rind the poor old officials from the Department of i".unicipal Affairs anC. hm.:,;i::1g cou·.e home late at night are completely sha!<:en,l::ecause ~'ley had a petition or somet.lu.ng .:>a forehand 1 have gone out to a pui>lic meeting and t:1en ~· ou na.C. a vociferous minority taking over the tr.eeting.and would not ti'lis kinci of thing apply

JecemDer 7, 197 9 Tape 17l2 :::c - 1 :•!R. F. ROWE: in te~ of an elec~ion? rind what :i: am nasica.lly get:tir.g at i:; , l;hy not :tave t.'le equivalen~ of a ballot box put in some public hall in a comn11mity from S:JO !\..~. to, say, 8:00P.M., instead of this ~~eting for the purpose of elec~ing the community council. I migh~. have missed the poin~ somewhere here, bu~ I would submit that if people are working in St.

Joron's - and •,;e have many communities, pa=ticularly on t.~e-Avalon, where people are gene for ~rost of t.'le day they rid.gh~ get t.'le opportunity to vote earl y in the morning or late at night and you would not h~ve say a vociferous minority, or what have you, establishing or electing a coiilll'.unity council .,hic.'J. ma.y not be in t.'le best interests or t.~e gre~test ~esire of t.~e particular col!mtunity in question.

I do not know if I can move an amendment, but probably t.~e minister co~l~ take it under advisement and indicate why we do not, tn fact, ha.ve the equivalent of a ballot box placed ti1ere for a twelve hour period to give t."le maximum number of people the ;na.ximwn opportunit:y ::o vote for tile persons of their choice. MR. C:i.l\I?!1AN: (:autt) and Housing. MR. N. 'I'I!UDSOR: The hon. t.'le Minis~er of ~unicipal Aff~irs Mr. Chairman, you know, we could debate these. things. These are problems that we h a ve been wrestling with for a number of years.

The prob iem with t.'1at is t.'J.en you ~ave to prepare a voter's list and say who is eligi~le ,

whereas at a public meeting, ~~e people are t.~ere and you go vote only once and ycu can control it l~ ~:at manne r. ::=t can Oe done , ~ut the sys tern of a pub1.ic :neeti:1.:; i3 ':.O S.!..u:pli f".r it. It is a simple bal lot box - it is done ~y a ballot Cox. ~'1d t..~e maeti ngs', in my e~e. rier1c e, are r:. o ~al ly r~eld on a SunQ.ay cveni:Lg , =ight af~er- church so t..~at ~st. _?eople ar e in the communi:y 4 If t:.o1.ey a.~e are valid.. ~ do :t.ot t..~in..l( yo u could ~ver el i :':\ir.at..a a l l t..i.e :.:=obl sms,

Jecernb~r 1, 1979 '!'ape 1712 sc - 2 :·IR. JA..'UESON: :1r. Chai=an. >!R. O'..AIRMAJ.'l: (Butt) The han. the Leader of ~~a Opposition. :·!R . .::Al-!.IESON: <::ere,once again, I just want to have a few words. I do not profess to be the world's greatest living expert on small co~~unity life, but I suppose my federal constituency for years, and the fact ~':la~ I have lived in a small community, I ca..'l honestly say ~~at there is probably less politics £n electing ~~e Prime Minister of Canada ~':!an ~':!ere is in getting a chairman of a community council sometimes.

I do suggest ~'lat there is •talidity in what has been said, in terms of making the thing not only democratic but successful. For instance, ~~e han. minister has commented ~~ac if you have a public meeting you can dis~ens~ wi~':l it and you do not need a voter's list, but eligibility is just as big a problem at a public meeting as ft is i= you have a ballot ;:,ox, and in fact, it is proba.'>ly a bigger problem.

Again, I understand the complexity of ~'le matter, but I de suggest tll<~.t there ought to :Oe some way t..."lrough whi~':l a lot of people who- I have had ~~e experienccs;I suppose ever] member of this House has had who has had anything to do Wl.b small communi ties, of naving people get '-'P to you privately and say, 'I ·would like to gc in a particular direction, but I do not say anything about t..."lat kind of thing.' ~ow those people, at a public meeting, in en electi~n, ~"ley are not likely to, in a sense, demonstrate what is their ~asic feeli:1c;s about t:.1e matter..

I do not know if ~ middle c;ro~"1ci of sam~ ki.--..C might b~ tha~ tb.c a lection at a ?ublic meeting shall be by sec~et ballo":.. They nave ~o ac~ually conduct ~':le election ever., What? - if there ~s j U5t a minimum numb.:r cf canditlates?

I 3U{'pose if ~"lere is only the exact :1\lli'.l::er t:"len presumably -c...'1.ere is no problem. aut no matter how Si!tall ~ co!':!Illun~ t~i ::..s under =his, t!J.ey will ~ave ":.o ~ave a ballot !Jox 31: :...~e :ne~ cing. 3ut c.;.,e only prcblam is the people will have tc g•) ~a t:::-te U~.eeti:19 a~a ~le=e is ~o time - ·"'hat ! am trying to figu:e out is , ~'.'hat is t~le C.i f~arence ::.e":.·.-Je'2n ~aving a p1.t.blic ~eeti:1g t..~at:. l asts :.·,.;o ;,.our3 and which may ~\ave ·1305

- 3 a public meeting in which t."le ballot box constitutes t.'"le public meeting? Is t.'"lere any good reason why we cannot have an eimer/or or sQmething of tllat nature? ~IR. CHAIRMAi~: (Butt) Affairs and Housing. ~. N. WINDSOR.: The hon. the Minister of ~lunicipal Yes, I suppose, if you really w~~t to interpret t:U.s

section of tile act very liberally and usa everJ flexibility in it - AN !iON • MEJ."'BER: ~. N. WINDSOR: (Inaudible) . -small '1', I do not want to be blasphemous - ~en, you know, you coUld interpret tllis as saying,

Dece!"""""'er 7,197~ '!'a:;?e ~:o. 1713 i'P-1 ~!R. WI'TDSCP.: ~-Jell, the meeting will last eight ~ou~s. ~here shall be a rneetinq held from nine a.m. to seven p.m., or ,.,hatever, and ···~ shall vote ant' here is the list of people. I sup:;"ose you could C!o t.'l.at but t.'tat is not no=al procedure. t!ormally you walk in and you nominate people, there is a !::allot box there and you vote by secret ballot. But I will take it under adv:!.sel!'.ent. HR. FLIGHT: MR.CHJI..IF}"!AN: (Bairc) ~1R. FLIGET: Mr. Chainnan. The hen. member for >7inC.sor-Buchans. Y.r. Chaiman, if we are finished the debate on Clause 263 1 I woulC! like to raise a point on 266,

section 3, item (a). I have some concerns about this part;!.cular clause and I '~ould want to i'.ear the minister explain 1 to justify that particular clause without an amendment. It says a person is not qual~fied to be eleeted as a councillor if he was a mel!'~er of a council t.~at was ~ismissed. And then it goes on to say, or, (

b) he •.ras individually dismissad as a member o.f the co•:ncil. Now ! can unoerstand t.'lat a member of a council was individually dismissec t.'"lere must 'oe a reason and I would ass•.ll!le the reason would have to be valid so there is no argUI"-ent. '!he 11'inister has got to protect his department and t~e Province and t.'l<e town from the !:::-responsible acts l"y an individual councillor.

C'ut what =.ncerns 1!'e is that t.'te I!linister is saying here, and t!-J.is is t.'"le legisJation ~~t ~ill ~~ binding after this legislation is oassed if t.'"lis is not amenc'ecl 1 - and I am not· too sure I would want to see it a.'!",en<'e<' hy way of regulations. I wa:rot to see it ric;ht in the act co protect an individual co~~cillcr- itis ~onceivable that you couJd hav~ a sitl!atior. wher.e a cotmcil ~o~es at-cut to Co sorr.ethil"g that ~~oulil warrant their disll'issal, eith~r :Oy fi!"La'lcial irres~onsibility or the =reaki~g of buclgetary re~ulatir.ns or anct~nq

Tare '!o. 1713 council ar.c tl-.e record woulc sho" t.'lat t.'".ey ·.·•ere O!;:>'Osec', the record of the meeting would show that t.'·."'y w~re o;:rosec. 31lt c:ny cot..ncil governs !:.y the l'lajori ty vote, ar.d •.•hether I am op:r?osed or r.ot OF?OSed Tatters little af'.:er th.e veta is ta~en and ! am on ~_he loosing sice.

There is no way that a r.-e!!'.ber of council '•<ho oppose<! the reason that the council ,.-as disl'lissed in the first place.should be subject to th~s regulation. ~e minister indicates to me across t~e H~use, he says, now that is it, the rP.cord of council will show ~'lathe was opposec to the action ':.."tat hr<:>ug".t O!.l:out t..>te cisl"issal of council. l'ell, Sir, t..>tat is not good enough. I understand what the minister is sa•:ing.

But that in<'ivic"ual hc>.s got th.e right to ':le protected uncer this act 2l".d that clause should he extended to indicate t..'"tat if t!',e reason for ~isrrissal, if an ini!i vidual tr.e!I'ber of council t·Tas prc,;en by r~corC of vote or record of contribution to Ce~ate~ that =e was c~roEed to that ?articular action t~at ~ro~gh atou~ ~e Cisnissal, ::.'"tat t.".is clause woulc :-tot aJ?ply to hirr. and he •,;auld indeec :::e free I J:.elieve, ~ir, ~~at if ·.·Ie are gains- to stic..l( Hit!~ t~e Corocratic process anc:t ~rotect the rights cf inCi.,-iduals in ~~is ?rovi.nce and protect t~e rights of ir..di'JiC'i,Jals 1 •• ho ~ ... ·oulC ':··ant to run for council t~en ~~at clause s~oule be arne~CeC tc protect t~at inCiviOual's riq~~s in this case. '!'~e :1on a the ~inister. ·:?. :··r~ 7 ~fC?: -------- I a..p~reciate the ~cr .. gcr'.tler:ar: 's c~r. cern~. ':~"'"!.e ~~cane! s~ction of +:~et claus .e, r_Jart •:;--) :..s t~e::re f\! \3U8

,·::- 3 ··:: .··· :~ :£\S ~"'R : !! t.~e council is :raki::<; l. cec i.s:!.or. vote ::-eco::-r!!!c' in t~e c:i.'lut.es o E t."e C(lW"lcil zr.eetinq. Gove::-::ll'ent is ~o~ go~~g :o dis~i~s a councillo r ~no ~ook =~e ~cUCle :o ~ave ~~s ~a~e ::-ecorce c as vocL;q aqain s t a council e~cisior 1 one tha1: orv:!.ously he k..'le·,.,,a.,d he expres sed his concerns at the c!.::te, t..~ at :..~is is scmet..lrl"\c:; !:or w!".ic!\ se ·~e ac:ion can !:e ta.1<.e:;. !!: he has his voce recorded then t.~ er e i s no ~ay in ~~e wor ld :..~at government ~ill ~is~iss ~.

Cpposition. t..~at !le x ibilit~·? :t seer:.s ::.o me :.~at it r cio r.o~ reaC it t.'lat; 11ay ~u1: it: says that: if he was a member of ::he cou:-:cil that ···a s ~is~issed . !t ~ces not say- ;;: FCN . .~:~ E?: (~n audiblel ccndit:icns. :!.~ .J'l':!!!'"SC~t: ~~ere is no ~c:.pula~on as ~ !:: . :!: ::!\e co~~cil qoes,~~s ~an ~ay have vo~:ed consiscen::!y a~ainsc scme of the :najorities acti ons but as far as r can see !":-cu. t:.'1ac 1

~ecember - 1979 H.~. JJl..i'!! ESOl\1: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): and Housing. . a pe No. 1714 NM - 1 and again I am just asking for information. The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs MR. WINDSOR: Actual.ly we have to refer t:J the

section on this particular one. I' am just quickly trying to find the

section that gives the Lieutenant-Gov~rnor in Council the right to dismiss council. But that is in fact what the whole procedure is. You know the government has the right to dismiss either one or· two or five or all seven c.ouncillors if the situation so warrants. We had a rather lengthy debate on this particular issue· in second reading,and we pointed out very clearly at that time that this is not something that is done lightly.

You know,a minister would cause a very thorough investigation and ! think tradition and past experience will indicate that, that the minister would do a very thorough investigation and try to find out exactly 11hy this "'-as done. was it just an error in judg$ent? was it done k:nowingly? Did eve:ry~dy partci .cipate? Obviously, if a cou."lcillor objected co the point whel;e he had his vote recorded, then a minister would obviously consider that, and if it were three or four people in a council who clearly voted for i t 1 then they must bea.J"; the brunt of their actions.

But a person who can clearly show that they were not liable for that action, and had it recorded that they objecteci to it, obviously would not be dismissed. There is no question about. that. MR. CHAIBM.'.\N: ·l'he hen. member fer Ter~a Nova. MR. LOSS: Ml,·. chainnan, just very briefly, and I can apprecia":.e the hen. mi·nister's response 1 but if I were a person living in a small community in Newf.oundland and I had been a member of a council that was dismissed, I would get the cle·ar impression from this particular c~ause that I ¥auld not be allowed to run for re-election.

That is the impress :ion that I would get. MR. WINDSOR: If you were part of a council dismissed. MR. LOSH: Yes, if I were part of a council that - MR. ~ND$0R : (Inaudible) your~o:lf. 1::L .O

Tape ~lo . 14 NM - 2 :-L~ . · usc:: Well , ~s i s the i mpress i on ~1ac l get because it says a person is not qualif ·ied to be elected as a councillor if (

a) he was a member of a council ~~t was dismissed. Right. That disqualified me. I cannot run. Or if he were individually dismissed. So there are two conditions really under wh.i-=h I cannot run - right!?- to be re-elected :1 cannot run i.f I were part of a council that was dismissed, right, one. Secondly, I cannot run if I was individually distnissed. That is the itnpression of it. Now what other clauses cotne before that would negate that I am not ~e 1 but here; as I say, it gives two conditions. If I were part of a council that was dismdssed I cannot run, or if I were personally were dismissed. In both instances I cannot run. MR. WINDSOR: The first

section is almost redundant because you can dismiss a whole council or you can dismiss seven in<lividuals. It has the same effect. All we are saying ilere is that if a council in its ent;;irit7 is dismissed - I<!R. MR. MR. WSH: W'l;NDSOR: LUSH: Yes, then nobcdy can rw~. - then nobody can run. Right. 'rhat is the point- The second as?ect of it j ust covers che area where only one or two co~,cillors are dismissed . MR. WINDSOR: ~ - LUSi:i: :oiR. ilL.'IDSOR: T~at is sen~ible. That is sensi~le. The :irsc ona :.S almost reC:undant . Mr .

Cha.L-man, t.~e firs::. ... la •.1s~ is not. :::edundan:: . .!'!-:! miru.ster lS ar•;;ui ng here - ,..hat: we are a:-<:Jui:'lg .:s -:o have th.i s fi.rs~ clause a..rnended to ;>rocec-;. r:.he =i )1-:s oi an ~nCividual ~he got caugh ~ ~nto a s~t~~icn over ·~~~c~ he had r.o coot.=o_ . .?.nd "I can e'7en 3~!? here , !'!r • .:hai~ , t.hat. lSSum.L~<; -:hac. ~ounc!. _ •Has Cisrn-s sed, ~c assum1.ng a.nv 9.1..vcn :