LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 26 August, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER , Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Member for Thompson, that the Report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , I'd like to table the Annual Report of the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba for the year 1985-86. MR. D. ORCHARD: Where's the department one, Larry? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I think I'll wait after the Session. MADAM SP EAK ER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . .

INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SP EAKER: Before proceeding to Oral Questions, I'd like to direct the attention of honourable members to the loge on my rig ht where we have visiting with us the Honourable Rod Murp hy, Member of Parliament for Churchill. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MTS - Public Utilities and Natural Resources committee meetings MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System. 3355 I wonder if he can inform members of the House as to when the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will next meet for examination of the report of MTS-MTX. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker , our House Leader looks after the arrangements for the calling of committees, I'll defer the question to him. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker, it is our intention to call that committee to meet on Thursday, September 4, either at 10:00 a.m. or 8:00 p.m., whichever is more appropriate for the Opposition. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further question to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System is: in view of the fact that the Opposition has expressed the willingness to meet either this evening or Thursday morning or Thursday evening, next Tuesday morning, next Tuesday evening, why is he unable to meet in committee with respect to the report of MTS­ MTX before next Thursday, September 4? HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker, just . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speaker, just as when members opposite had difficulties with days that we had suggested for meetings, and that has happened on several occasions - (Interjection) - Well, the member opposite says "twice ", or "once. " Once, well, I - (Interjection) - MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition asked a question; the Honourable Government Leader is endeavouring to answer the question. HON. J. COWAN: We try to set our

schedule of the committee hearings so as to accommodate them, and it was two times, not once, as the Leader of the Opposition says from his seat. He is wrong, once again. It was on one occasion when the Member for Pembina had to take care of some private business and we held back the meeting in order to accommodate his need to take care of that business, and I think it was an important bit of business that he was doing and I think

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 it was right to hold back that meeting in order to accommodate his schedule. There was another occasion when we offered the meeting in this House on a Friday afternoon and the Leader of the Opposition said no. They have an aversion to having ... SOME HONOURAB LE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. MR. G. FILMON: On a point of order, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. G. FILMON: On a point of order , the Government House Leader is wrong again, as he usually is.

I did not refuse a meeting on the Friday afternoon. SOME HONOURAB LE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. As the Honourable Leader of the Opposition well knows, a dispute over the facts is not a point of order . The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Perhaps I went too far in my assumption that the Leader of the Opposition actually leads that group across the Chamber. It is becoming more and more obvious every day that that has never been the case and is not the case at present.

However, out of deference to his position, one would continue to make that assumption until their leadership contest is over. But as a matter of fact, his caucus, upon dire ction of someone - I would hope it were him, but if it was not him - said that they would not meet on a Friday afternoon when we offered the meeting on a Friday afternoon. It appears to me that they have an aversion to meeting on Friday afternoons, for whatever reason. However, Madam Speaker, we have indicated in the past, that to the extent possible, we will attempt to arrange and

schedule meetings so as to accommodate all the members. We've been able to do that successfully in the past. As it is now, we, as government members, have business that must be taken care of. There are issues of importance to Manitobans that go beyond MTX and MTS. It's an important issue, but there are other issues which this government has a responsibility to deal with on an ongoing basis that means we will not be able to jump to their beck and call every time they stand up, wail and beat their chests and request a meeting.

In this particular instance, Thursda y, September 4, is the date which we feel will accommodate the needs of members on this side. If it does not accommodate the schedules of members opposite, let them speak, but it can't be before that particular date at this time. MADAM SPEAKER: I remind honourable members that answers to questions should be brief. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further question to the Minister responsible for the Telephone System is: does his

schedule and the information that he has available to him permit him to meet in committee with MTS at the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Committee prior to a week from Thursday, September 4? MADAM SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS. HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I've indicated to our House Leader that this Minister will try to accommodate the House in any arrangements, but I appreciate the fact that the House Leader has to look at the entire work of the House, the obligations of this government to proceed with legislation and the commitments of this House in accordance with a reasonable schedule. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker , I wonder if the Minister responsible for the Telephone System can indicate whether or not staff of MTS-MTX are available and prepared to meet in Committee of Public Utilities and Natural Resources on their Annual Report prior to next Thursday, September 4. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I think the question is really not all that relevant. I have indicated to staff that when I indicate that the committee is going to meet, they are expected to be there. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Government House Leader could indicate to us which members of his government are not available to meet prior to September 4, Thursday, in committee on MTS­ MTX. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: No, Madam Speaker, and just as we don't ask them who wants their Friday afternoons off from their side, so we can't conduct business of this House on a Friday afternoon, we don't expect them to provide that information to us, and we don't expect to be asked to provide to them information as to which members of a committee - and there are a number of members - can meet at a specific time and can't meet at a specific time. I have indicated that Thursday, September 4, is the earliest possible occasion on which I am prepared to recommend a meeting of that particular committee.

There is nothing to hide; there is nothing to cover up. It is a matter of scheduling the business of this House so important issues like The Family Farm Protection Act, The Trade Practices Inquiry, jobs, economic development in this province - (Interjection)- MADAM SPEAKER: Order. HON. J. COWAN: . . . and those other issues which are important to Manitobans can be dealt with by the government. We intend to continue dealing with them in a businesslike fashion. We have done so in the past and we will do so in the future, notwithstanding what they suggest might be an appropriate date for any one committee. 3356

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: My further question to the Government House Leader is: in view of the fact that there are only seven members of the government on that Committee of Public Utilities and Natural Resources, why is the government unable to put together seven members to sit on either this Thursday morning or evening, next Tuesday morning or evening, prior to next Thursday when he has now scheduled the meeting? HON. J.

COWAN: It's interesting for members opposite to suggest so consistently that because we are having a committee meeting not to their particular liking in respect to the scheduling there is a coverup going on. I only have to remind them, Madam Speaker, that when they were government and we asked for committee meetings to discuss matters, they refused entirely to have those committee meetings. They shut down committee meetings where the public were trying to attend to make representations.

They adjourned and completed the work of committees when members of the Opposition, at that time members of this party, were not present; so they have a despicable record in respect to attempting to arrange committee hearings so as to accommodate not only members of this House, but the general public. I would suggest to you that given the actions to date, and even the action of the scheduling of the committee meeting at present, we have gone out of our way on every occasion to accommodate the needs of members opposite and the needs of the public in making representation to committees.

We will continue to do so, but it is we who have to determine what business is of such importance that we have to arrange our schedules around it so as to meet the needs of this province. I would suggest to members opposite that perhaps they should start thinking about some of those other issues, the jobs, the economy, The Trade Practices Inquiry Act, The Family Farm Protection Act to protect the farmers who are now involved in a harvest, and let us get down to the business of this province and the business of this House. MTS - Sheik Al Bassam visit to Winnipeg MR. G.

FILMON: My question to the Minister responsible for the Telephone System is: did he meet with Sheik Al Bassam when he was in Winnipeg last fall, the fall of 1985, on a visit here? Did he meet with the sheik at that time? MR. D. ORCHARD: Do you rememb er, Al? MADAM SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MA CKLING: Madam Spea ker, if there was a courtesy call, I spent a few minutes in my office and I met the gentleman involved. MR. G.

FILMON: I wonder, Madam Speaker, my question to the Minister of Finance, did he as well meet with the sheik when he was here last fall on that so­ called courtesy visit. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTVRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. No. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , my further question to the Minister responsible for the Telephone System is: did any other member of the government meet with the sheik when he was here on that visit last fall? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS. HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I do not recall. There was no other Minister . The Saudi Arabian individual involved called into my office, was introduced to me by the staff of the Telephone System. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further question to the Minister responsible for the Telephone System: did the vice-chairman of the board meet with the sheik when he was here, that being a government appointee to the Board of Manitoba Telephone System, did that person meet with the sheik when he was here? HON. A.

MA CKLING: Madam Speaker, I'm sure there were a number of people from the Manitoba Telephone System had met with Sheik Al Bassam. I don't recall who all were present in my office. I believe that they were members of the Telephone System, staff of the Telephone System. I'm sure Mr. Gordon Holland was there, probably a number of the vice-presidents; I don't recall exactly. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further question to the Minister is: does he recall if the then Member for Wolseley was present at that meeting or any other meeting with the sheik on his visit here to Manitoba last fall? HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speak er, I should recall that because I think the Honourable Member for Wolseley would make any meeting warmer and more attractive, but I don't recall that with precision. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speak er, I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether or not, during the course of the visit with the sheik, either with himself or with senior officials of the Telephone System, the sheik expressed any concerns about business difficulties that the Saudi Arabian companies that MTX is involved with were participating in, did he express any concern about business difficulties at that time of the visit?

HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker , I don't recall the conversation. I know that it was a courtesy call. I didn't spend very long and I don't believe that there was an agenda or discussion of any items. It was a courtesy visit on his part. I was pleased to meet the 3357

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 gentleman and that was the extent of the meeting, as I recall. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further question to the Minister responsible. If the sheik did not offer any comments about business difficulties to the Minister himself, did senior members of the board or of staff of MTS, MTX, SADL, who met with the sheik on his visit here, give him a report as to any of the difficulties that they may be encountering in the business that they were engaged in, in Saudi Arabia? HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Spea ker, I assume that Sheik Al Bassam had meetings with staff of MTS and MTX and discussions about the operations. I wasn't present at those meetings. His visit to me was a courtesy visit and I enjoyed meeting him. MTS - accusations in affidavit of Shelbert J. Payne, Florida MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I am going to table a copy of an affidavit which is signed by Shelbert John Payne, an affidavit that I have just received today, that was sworn on August 25 in Florida, with various comments in it for the information of the Minister responsible, the Premier and the government, with respect to further concerns and further information about the operations of MTX and its related companies in Saudi Arabia. I will quote one particular statement and I might indicate, Madam Speaker , that I have sent a copy of that affidavit to the RCMP today to ensure that they have that information to pursue.

I quote one particular statement, Madam Speaker. It says: "I had previously been informed by Mike Aysan that he would arrange to obtain proper work visas for the Saudi joint venture. To the best of my knowledge, the subsequent employment visa indicated that I was an employee of General Bahrrin Concrete (GBC Inc.)." Does the Minister have any knowledge of this kind of false information contained on visa applications for staff who were being sent to work for the company in Saudi Arabia? HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I'm happy to hear that the Leader of the Opposition has sent a copy of that affidavit, which I haven't seen, to the RCMP. I know that I have forwarded an affidavit received from an existing employee to the RCMP, and another memorandum I received to the RCMP. I believe that the RCMP are the best way to determine whether there are irregularities or wrongdoings. I know that they are in the field and doing a job and that's how it should be. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, if I may quote further from the document, it says: "With the severity of the IBM Series/1 failure in mind, Mike Aysan approved a decision to obtain an operating system through non­ commercial channels. . . . Leroux Pitts then bootlegged a copy of their operating system and provided it to Datacom. I do verify believe this action was in violation of the United States copyright laws. " Does the Minister responsible have any knowledge of that particular matter having been transacted by the MTX affiliate company overseas in Saudi Arabia? HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker , I know and can appreciate that there may be instances where there will be some corroboration of statements made in the Ferguson affidavit and I think that's what the Honourable Opposition Leader is alluding to in this present affidavit - I haven't seen it. - (Interjection) - I would defer to the RCMP rather than the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. I think that the RCMP will probe every allegation, every issue, and come up with recommendations if there are to be charges laid, and we will accept those recommendations and act on them. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question to the Minister responsible is: was he informed of bootlegging of IBM software, contrary to U.S. copyright laws, being engaged in by Datacom in its overseas operations in Saudi Arabia? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General on a point of order . HON. R. PENNER: The Minister is being asked to comment on allegations which (

a) he doesn't have; and (

b) which at this moment are merely hearsay and are being presented to the House as if they were, in fact, proven. Madam Speaker, I don't think that is something which falls within the ministerial competence of the Minister to comment on allegations which remain in the realm of hearsay , that so and so was informed by so and so that something is alleged to have happened. In fact, this is precisely the kind of thing which ought to be avoided in any respective House. - (Interjection) - Yes, I think that it is out of order to inquire of a Minister with respect to allegations which remain in the realm of allegations.

MR. D. ORCHARD: Don't ask about the truth then, Rollie, eh. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Opposition House Leader . MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, on this point of order, it would appear that the government's attempts to cover up this whole incident in operation of MTS and MTX has now gone about as far as it could possibly go. They have refused a judicial inquiry; they've refused the committee to meet. Now, they don't want the Minister to answer a question in the House.

The Leader of the Opposition is simply asking whether the Minister responsible for MTS-MTX was informed of certain facts. Surely to goodness, that is within the rules of procedure and allowed. Surely, we won't be stopped from obtaining this information. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: On a point of order , the Opposition House Leader in his comments stated that we refused 3358

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 to have the committee meet. That, in fact, is a misrepresentation of the case . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. We can't have two points of order on the floor at the same time. I assumed the Honourable Government House Leader was speaking on the first point of order as to whether the question put by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition was in order. Comments to points of order are supposed to be strictly to that particular point.

In terms of the point of order , Beauchesne Citation 362: "It is not good parliamentary practice to communicate written allegations to the House, and then to ask Ministers either to confirm or deny them. " I think that the ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I think that is the particular point that the Honourable Attorney-General was referring to. However, the question, as I remember it, that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition put was: did the Minister know about those particular allegations?

I think, to be fair, under the circumstances, when the affidavit was just tabled, that it would be reasonable to give all members an opportunity to read the document that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition tabled. I'm sure that most members have not had that opportun ity. As far as I'm concerned, the way the Leader of the Opposition worded the question, it is in order , but I do caution him about that particular Citation and the fact members have not had an opportunity to peruse the tabled document. If he could be a bit more judicial in his questions it would help. The Honourable Government House Leader .

HON. J. COWAN: On a point of order, arising out of the comments of the Opposition House Leader, he clearly stated that the government refused to call the committee, when very specifically we indicated that we would be calling the committee on a specific date. We cannot any longer allow misrepresentations of that sort to go unchallenged as they have attempted to do in the past. The record should be clear that the committee will be called at the . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I have on many occasions cautioned honourable members that a dispute over the facts is not a point of order.

For the second time this morning, one from each side, I would like to caution members, again, of that rule that they know full well, and hope that they would all follow the rules as carefully as they should. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speak er, I again quote from a statement of the sworn affidavit, in which it is said: "In the presence of Chafe Abou Richeh, Mike Aysan instructed me 'to build into the cost of each project sufficient margin to enable us to pay our respects.' This 'appreciation fee' was hidden in the ambiguous areas of a bid such as training, service contracts, freight and handling. " Does the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System have any knowledge as to any of 3359 these items that have been apparently part of the operations of our subsidiary company overseas in Saudi Arabia?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you, Madam Speaker. As I indicated in answer to an earlier question, I'm very pleased that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has forwarded this affidavit. - (Interjection) - Well, I am genuinely pleased that at last the Leader of the Opposition has recognized that the proper authority to investigate allegations is the RCMP. Madam Speaker , when this Minister received serious allegations of wrongdoing, not within days, but within one hour I had that material in the hands of the RCMP.

Madam Speaker, I've received further information which I don't discuss in the House or the media. I have referred it to the RCMP and the management audit, and they will do a job. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. A. MACKLING: They will do a job in investigating every specific in any allegation or suggestion of wrongdoing. The management audit will show us where there is any management weakness or deficiency, and we will act on it. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I have always stated that we will cooperate with the RCMP in . MADAM SPEAKER: With a question. MR. G. FILMON: be able to ... . every respect, but they will not MADAM SPEAKER: With a question! MR. G. FILMON: . . . investigate all of the problems with MTX. We've said so before and the Minister knows that. You could drive a truck through the gap that he's left in the investigation. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Could the Honourable Leader of the Opposition please come to order .

Question period is not a time for debate either by those members who are on their feet or members from their seats shouting back and forth across the floor. Now, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has the floor to ask a question. MR. G. FILMON: I quote once more, Madam Speaker , for the Minister responsible for the Telephone System: "In September of 1983 , due to all conditions, situations and circumstances herein deposed by me, I decided that it would be in my own best interests to sever all ties and affiliations with Datacom and Mike

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 Aysan. I decided to fly to Canada at my own expense to discuss my resignation with Maurice Provencher. We discussed matters related to the conditions and circumstances affecting the welfare of Datacom. Mr. Provencher's response was one of total indifference. He said to me, 'The situation is under control and we are making necessary adjustments.' When questioned further, he could not indi cate what those adjustments were . I offered my resignation.

It was accepted ." Did the Minister responsible, at any time, have any knowledge of any of these items, given that it is apparent that senior officials of MTS-MTX were informed of many of the concerns contained in this affidavit? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I remember one of the first instructions I was given in law school, and that was the lawyer himself who has a problem should get another lawyer to look at it. If he doesn't , he's got a fool for a lawyer . Madam Speaker, I've learned many, many years ago that I am not the most competent detective. I am not . . . well, the honourable gentlemen laugh.

I'm being quite serious. Madam Speaker, I know from my experience in the law, and as a former Attorney-General , that the RCMP in Manitoba and in Canada are beyond question in their expertise in being able to determine public wrongdoing. Madam Speaker, they have a team of experts, acknowledged in Canada, throughout North America, throughout the world, in respect to the area commonly known as contractual fraud or misdoing . Madam Speaker, there can be no finer investigative force to have turned this matter to.

I am satisfied, and now at last the Leader of the Opposition has recogni zed that the proper way in which these concerns can be investigated thoroughly and reported is through the RCMP. MTS - judicial inquiry re MTX MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further question to the Minister responsible for the Telephone System is: in view of the fact that on Tuesday, August 12 in this House, in response to a question about the one kickback that was identified by Mr.

Provencher that morning in committee, the Minister said, and I quote , "I was advised that the individual involved was a citizen of Saudi Arabia, that disciplinary action had been taken against that individual; he was no longer employed. He had never been, as I understood it, in the employ of the joint venture. He'd been a full-time employee of an affiliated company. As such, there was no action that we could have taken in Canada in respect to a criminal investigation on that matter .

Therefore, I believe there was no basis for a criminal investigation here , Madam Speaker ." In view of the fact that that's what he said about the alleged kickback at that time, the established kickback that had been admitted to, how does he feel that the RCMP will get at it now when it fits all of the criteria that he, as a former Attorney -General, said could not be examined, could not be a matter for Canadian criminal investigations? HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker , the Honourable Leader of the Opposition in his question gives substantial proof to the current concerns we must have, that it should be people who are knowledgeable who deal with these questions, not the Leader of the Opposition ; because, Madam Speaker, the sworn testimony of Mr. Provencher was that this incident referred to involved a Saudi Arabian citizen working for a Saudi Arabian company, an offence occurred and that man was subject to Saudi Arabian law.

The allegat ions in the affidavit make specific allegations about Manitoba citizens; they make allegations that are actionable in this province , in this country , and they are matters within our jurisdiction , and any lawyer, even a student at law , would tell the Leade r of the Opposition there is a big distinction between those things . In respect to the criminal investig ation , the RCMP, through Interpol , has abi lity to investigate matters in Saudi Arabia. The management audit that we have commissioned have offices in Saudi Arabia and are well positioned to investigate all of those administrative matter s.

A judicial inquiry would have no status in Saudi Arabia. So when the members of the Opposition cry for public inquiry, a judicial inquiry, they want a political circus . The duty on this Minister , the duty on this government is to act decisively in respect to the allegations of public wrongdoing, act decisively in connection with concerns about management , and we have done that. MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question for the Premier is: given the response of the Minister responsible for the Telephone Sy ste m, was the Freedman Inquiry a political circus? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . That question seeks an opinion . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the question demonstrates very well the ign orance of the Leader of the Opposition. Madam Speaker, I shudder . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please . If I was correct in hearing , the Honourable Leader of the Opposition 's question was asking whether a certain inquiry was a political circus .

To me, that is asking for the Premier 's opinion . The question is out of order unless the Honourable Leader of the Opposition would like to rephrase it. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further question to the Premier, or my new question to the Premier .

Given that every day that we sit in this House, that every day that the committee sits in investigation of MTS-MTX , more information comes out; despite the limited resources of research of the Oppos ition, more information comes out about the wrongdoing, about the shoddy business practices, about cover-ups with respect to the operations of MTX in Saudi Arabia; in view of the fact that community groups, employees of the Telephone System and MTX have continuously said 3360

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 that there must be a public inquiry with powers of subpoena to call witnesses under oath so that indeed we can get to the bottom of all this; in view of the fact that every day more information comes forward of a damaging nature to this government and MTX, will he finally call a full public inquiry so that we can get to the bottom of all this and get the truth? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, two weeks ago, I indicated very clearly that I had confidence in the RCMP.

I do not have confidence in bar room or committee room lawyers. In fact, the Leader of the Opposition and the Member for Pembina remind me of a children's cartoon that is taking place now that is known to many Manitobans involving one Sherlock Holmes and Great Mouse.

Madam Speaker, the criminal justice system has not come to the stage, as described by the Leader of the Opposition, the Member for Pembina - Madam Speaker, we, in this country, have the democratic traditions of a criminal justice system and a police force that have the ability to investigate and to bring in a full report, and if necessary, for charges to be laid. Madam Speaker, I shudder ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Shame, shame! HON. H. PAWLEY: I shudder , Madam Spe aker, honourable members call, "shame. " Honourable members obviously do not have confidence in the RCM P.

Madam Speaker , let me assure you that Manitobans have confidence and the government has confidence in the RCMP. Madam Speaker, honourable members are demonstrating their desire to politically posture this issue rather than to get to the truth through the RCMP. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, for the Premier, if he's so interested in getting at the truth, why is he afraid of a full public inquiry?

Is he afraid that it's going to show that the Minister responsible for the Telephone System had some role to play in this whole fiasco? Is he afraid .. . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. That question is not in order, asking a Minister why he's afraid. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question to the Premier: in view of the great protestation that he's made, is he afraid that this will bring out damaging information about the responsibility of his government, the Minister responsible for the Telephone System, or the former Minister, the Member for Brandon East?

Is he afraid that something might come out that's damaging to him? Or the Member for Dauphin, the former Minister responsible for the Telephone System 3361 MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. On many counts, the honourable member's question is out of ord er. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, is that the reason why he won't call a full public inquiry, because the truth will be damaging to his government and every former Minister who was responsible for the Telephone System knew about it? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, this government has demonstrated the courage to deal with this issue because within one-half hour of the Ferguson affidavit being filed in committee, it is our understanding that this Minister responsible for the Telephone System handed that affidavit to the RCMP, and through the Attorney-General, asked for a complete and full investigation by the RCMP. It was this government that ordered the management audit review by Coopers and Lybrand in order to ensure we get to the truth of this matter .

Madam Speaker, it is honourable members across the way that would drag this matter through months and months and months, possibly a year, through an inquiry, inability to deal with the management issues, ineffectiveness with dealing with the criminal allegations. Madam Speaker, I ask who is politically posturing; who is taking advantage of this matter, politically, and who has the courage? Which side, Madam Speaker, has the courage to take the measures that are necessary? Madam Speaker, it has been this side, in calling the RCMP and the management audit to deal with this matter.

MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition, that the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance; namely, the cover-up by the government in failing to call immediately, the Committee of Public Utilities and Natural Resources to continue to review MTS and MTX operations. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

The Honourable Member for Pembina has five minutes to make his case for . . . The Honourable Opposition House Lea der. MR. G. MERCIER: Yes, Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Madam Speaker, this motion is being brought under Rule 27 which requires the Speaker to rule on whether or not the motion is in order and of urgent public importance. Madam Speaker, the record clearly shows

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 that you served as the vice-chairman of the Manitoba Telephone System under the previous government, during the period in time which the members of the Opposition have asked for a judicial inquiry and committee meetings to be held immediately with respect to this matter. In order, Madam Speaker, for the House to continue to have confidence in your impartiality, which is a necessary attribute of any Speaker, may I respectfully ask you to consider withdrawing from hearing of this matter and considering whether this matter is within the rules?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader on the point of order. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, it is a most uncommon and unusual request that the Opposition House Leader makes in regard to your participation in respect to this motion. I would suggest there's probably no better time, Madam Speaker, than now, to remind members of what the "Principles of Parliamentary Law," as outlined in Beauchesne, say about the Speaker, and it is of such importance to the principles of parliamentary law that it is the first item, the absolute first item in Beauchesne in any addition.

What is said in that case and I'll read it in full, it's not all that long: "The principles that lie at the basis of English parliamentary law, have always been kept steadily in view by the Canadian Parliament; these are: To protect a minority and restrain the improvidence or tyranny of a majority; to secure the transaction of public business in an orderly manner; to enable every Member to express his opinions within limits necessary to preserve decorum and prevent an unnecessary waste of time; to give abundant opportunity for the consideration of every measu re, and to prevent any legislative action being taken upon sudden impulse ." Those are important words that guide your office and guide our respect for your office, and that respe ct, Madam Speaker, in the opinion of at least members on this side , and I belie ve , at least some members on the Opposition side; that respect has been well earned by your adherence to your duties under Beauchesne and under the principles and traditions of parliamentary principles and actions.

We will abide on this side, by no comments disrespectful or questioning of your ability to perform your job with fairness and impartiality. That has never been proven to be the case and I would suggest, Madam Speaker, that you have every right, and more than that, you have an undeniable , inalienable responsibility to rule on that matter, as Speaker, because we have given you not only the responsibility, but the faith and the confidence and you have not, on one occasion, ever broken that faith with any member of this House. MR. G. MERCIER: Just a further brief comment .

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader, a point of order is supposedly on a particular procedural item. MR. G. MERCIER: Yes. Madam Speaker, the matter under consideration is whether or not there should be immediate committee hearings to review the operations of MTS and MTX, during a period of time in which you were wholly or partly vice-chairman of the Board of the Manitoba Telephone System.

I'm simply pointing out to you and to members of the House, that if you, pursuant to Rule 27 under which this motion was brought, were to find the motion not in order - it may appear to some that you've found that way, because you may have wished to keep a review of those proceedings from the public. I would therefore suggest that it may very well be in order for you to withdraw from considering this matter. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speaker, the Opposition House Leader full well knows that Speakers on many occasions are asked to rule on matters in which they may have had some participation in, previous to them being appointed to Speaker. I know not of any other request in this House, and I would suggest one would have to search far and wide to find similar requests in other Houses where the impartiality and the fairness and the unbiased nature of the Speaker has been so questioned.

The Opposition House Leader was very cute in the way in which he posed the question rather than a reflection, unlike some of his caucus who from their seat say things that are more blatant, or outside of this House suggest that you do not have their confidence and their faith. If, in fact, you do not have their confidence and faith, there are parliamentary measures for them to take to display that. We are prepared to deal with those sorts of measures.

But it cannot be allowed for the Opposition House Leader, who should know better, to stand on his feet and by innuendo reflect on the dignity of the Chair, and more importantly than that, the way in which you have carried out your responsibility to this House. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert does not have a point of order. He has expressed an opinion which does come dangerously close to a reflection on the Chair, regardless of who occupies the Chair.

May I remind the honourable member that such an objection was not raised when we had another matter relating to the same topic, nor was it raised when this Speaker ruled in favour of a matter dealing with the department that the Honourable Member for St. Norbert brought to the House, a matter of urgent public importance, when this Speaker in a former life had been a legislative assistant to that particular Minister. I would hope that the honourable member would take due caution in making such innuendoes and coming so dangerously close to a reflection on the impartiality of the Chair.

MADAM SPEAKER: I will now give, according to the rules, Rule 27(2), the Honourable Member for Pembina five minutes to state his case for the urgency of his motion. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, I think it doesn't even need five minutes to determine the urgency of 3362

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 having the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Committee meet this Thursday, rather than a week from this Thursday, to discuss more of the MTS-MTX affair in Saudi Arabia. Madam Speaker , I don't have to point out to you because you have presided over question period, wherein after every single Public Utilities hearing, wherein we have had MTS officials before that hearing and where we are posing questions to them that should be posed by the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System and aren't, that we get new revelations of wrongdoing in the operations of MTX and MTS.

Those revelations are becoming evermore damaging to this government and showing it for the incompetent group of cover-up artists that they truly are. Now, Madam Spea ker , they are deliberately withholding our opportunity to question MTS and MTX officials for 10 full days.

When I offered to him on Friday in question period, the opportunity that we would be available this morning, Tuesday , 10:00 a. m. for a committee hearing, this evening at 8:00 p.m. for a committee meeting, this coming Thursday at 10:00 a.m. and again at 8:00 p.m.; the government has refused that offer through the weak excuse that their government Ministers won't be available to be here for the meeting if it's called this week. There are no pairs, Madam Speak er. No Ministers are to be away that were on that committee because there's no pairs.

We have pulled the pairing system away from this government because we can't trust them to tell the truth to the people of Manitoba on the MTS and MTX affair. Madam Speaker, there is no reason why any member of government would not be available this morning, this afternoon, Thursday morning, Thursday afternoon for a hearing, other than the fact that they hope to be able to sweep this whole matter under the table, prevent us from doing our rightful and honourable job of discovering the truth in the whole MTS-MTX affair in Saudi Arabia.

This government is now clearly operating a cover­ up of the greatest proportion to protect Cabinet Ministers, I submit, Madam Speak er, who had prior knowledge of the whole MTS and MTX affair. They are covering up the Ministerial responsibility now because clearly we have MTS-MTX officials who have not been forthright in their answers or in the operation of their duties, responsible in those two Crown corporations.

Now the only reason this government refuses the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Committee sitting, and are putting it off for 10 full days, is to further cover up the truth and prevent members of the media from sitting in an open forum where they can report on the answers and the confusion and the distancing of reports between Ministers and senior MTS-MTX officials. That is all done in public. They want to have their behind-the-scenes secret - no press, no public involved - cover-up inquiry into MTS and MTX operations. That's what they want, Madam Speaker.

They don't want the truth to come out; they don't want the public to know; they don't want members of the Opposition to pose the questions and, above all, they do not want the media there to report to the people of Manitoba how incompetent this government is, how they are covering up the MTX and MTS scandal in Saudi Arabia. Madam Speaker , there is no greater matter of urgency than to get the truth out to the people of Manitoba and to call the committee meetings immedi ate ly. Immediate ly, Madam Speaker.

Time cannot be wasted while the government attempts to cover up their ineptitude and their bungling of this whole affair. The meetings are needed immedi atey, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader has five minutes. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker , the Member for Pembina failed dismally in suggesting - and this is what he was supposed to have done in his five minutes according to the rules of Beauchesne - that this matter is of such public urgent importance that we should set aside the ordinary Business of the House, as well as continue with the debate on this matter today.

Madam Speaker, we have very clearly indicated that there will be another committee meeting. In the past, whether it was we who were members of the government, or they who were members of the government, it was a matter to

schedule those meetings as much as possible in cooperation each with the other , knowing that there would be occasions where that scheduling could not be accommodated in that fashion. When we suggested that there be a meeting at a specific time, the Opposition House Leader rose in his place and made an impassioned speech that we should not have that meeting because the Member for Pembina would not be able to be present because of pressing private business. We accepted that.

When we suggested that there be a meeting of the committee on Friday afternoon last, the members opposite rose in their place and said no, they were not prepared to have a meeting on Friday. And they've indicated they're not prepared to have meetings on Friday afternoon at all, not that that is the matter before us. But I think it shows very clearly they believe that they have the right to determine when the meetings should be held and that is not the case.

But let them not attempt to misrepresent the actual fact when it is stated that there will be a meeting held on a specific date, and well within a suitable time frame for anyone in this House, and that that meeting will be empowered to carry on the type of business which meetings previously have been empowered to carry on. So the record should be quite clear in that respect.

They may wish the meeting this afternoon, or the meeting this evening, or any afternoon or evening, but it is up to the Government House Leader to determine when that meeting should be held to accommodate not only the interest and - I'll be kind - the desire of the Opposition to hold that meeting, but also to accommodate the need of a government to carry on business to deal with the more pressing issues of the day. And that is what we are intending to do by the scheduling of that meeting. There will be a committee meeting.

Members opposite will have their opportunity to ask their questions and obtain their answers. But we have business that is equally important and, in many instances, more important, that must be carried out on behalf of the people of the province and that is a responsibility that we will not abdicate to meet their desires for a specific time. 3363

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 The member opposite in his comments of course, Madam Speaker , had also a responsibility to show that there was no other opportunity for that matter to be discussed during the normal House business. As you are aware, Madam Speaker, we are going into Estimates following your calling of Orders of the Day. There is an opportunity for members opposite to rise on a grievance and to make the comments and the statements which they wish to make in respect to this matter, and they have done that.

They have used that vehicle to make their point known so, obvious ly, they agree that it is an effective way - either that or they're wasting their time - an effective way of making their concerns known to the general public. So I would suggest to them that not only is there another opportunity for them to make those comments known but it is an opportunity which they are well versed in and one which they have sought to use on many occasions. Madam Speaker , firstly, this matter is not of such public urgency that we need set aside the Business of the House.

There are more important matters that need be discussed; jobs; the economy; The Family Farm Protection Act; The Trade Practices Inquiry Act; the conflict of interest; those are issues which we believe must be discussed. Beyond that, Madam Speaker , if they insist that to them this issue is the most pressing and the most important issue of the day, they have their grievance available to them to make those comments known. MADAM SPEAKER: On the motion of the Honourable Member for Pembina, there are several conditions that have to be met to find the motion in order. One, that the Speaker receives the required notice.

I have received the proper required notice. The second one is, that no other reasonable opportunity to raise the matter is available. I have looked at the Order Paper and the reasonable opportunities that will be presenting themselves to the House; one, of course, is the grievance procedure; another is at the consideration of the Executive Council Estimates, is another opportunity that members would have to raise this matter and that, on the list of Estimates, is coming very shortly.

Also apparent ly, imminent are the debates on several Supply bills, both Second, Third Reading, and Committee of the Whole and, of course, as announced in the House this morning verbally, a scheduled meeting for the said Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources coming up next week. In view of the other immediate opportunities for debate which I have just identified, I find that although the member's motion addresses a matter of undoubted importance, it does not satisfy the conditions of a matter of urgent public importance under the rules and practices of this House.

The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G. MERCIER : Madam Speaker , with all due respect, I would challenge your ruling. MADAM SPEAKER: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. All those in favour of sustaining the ruling of the Chair say aye; all those opposed say nay. In my opinion, the ayes have it. The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G. MERCIER: Yeas and nays, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Call in the members. The question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained. All those in favour, please rise.

A ST ANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS Ashton, Baker , Bucklaschuk, Cowan, Desjardins, Doer, Dolin, Evans, Harapiak (The Pas), Harapiak (Swan River), Harper, Hemphill, Kostyra, Lecuyer, Mackling, Maloway, Parasiuk, Pawley, Penner, Plohman, Santos, Schroeder, Scott, Smith (Ellice), Smith (Osborne), Storie, Walding, Wasylycia-Leis. NAYS Birt, Blake, Brown, Carstairs, Connery, Cummings, Derkach, Downey, Drie dger, Ducharme, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Find lay, Hammond, Johnston, Kovnats, Manness, Mccrae, Mercier, Mitchelson, Nordman, Oleson, Orchard, Pankratz, Rocan, Roch. MR. CLERK, W.

Remnant: Yeas, 28; Nays, 27. MADAM SPEAKER: The motion is carried and the ruling of this Chair is sustained. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker , I move, seconded by the Minister of Health, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker , I would indicate to the Government House Leader , on House Business, we're prepared to waive Private Member's Hour today. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , I would like to take

part in this debate because I think I have an important grievance, and I am speaking for the people of Manitoba also. I think that we've been very patient and we've tried to cooperate with the Opposition as much as possible. I can say I've never seen an Opposition as arrogant as the members of the front benches this year. 3364

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 Madam Speaker, when are they going to learn that they were elected in Opposition and elected in Opposition four times out of the last elections? They have been the self-styled defenders of democracy; they're going to defend democracy and let the people choose who they want to rule and to manage this province. But they won't accept that. Democracy is good when you have the power; when it is not, you have to protect the people against themselves. I've never seen anybody, during a question period, they've tried to use the rules to their advantage .

Madam Speake r, these great managers, can they see how long they would last in the public sector, running a corporation, for instance, wasting time, $75,000 a day that we're spending here, to act like a bunch of kids? The youngsters coming here are ashamed and the teachers take them out. These are the people talking about inept government, inept big government, and they are saying every day, you have to do this, you have to decide for the board of the hospitals; you have to decide, don't rely on anybody else.

Then when we try to go and do work with the department, they keep us here and that's supposed to be very funny. And the frustrated lawyer out there who tries to conduct the question period . . . - (inaudible)- MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. A MEMBER: You don't care about $20 million, do you? It's not our job to protect the public, right? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. L. DESJARDINS: We don't care about $20 million. Can anybody on that side tell us that the RCMP are not qualified to have a proper investigation? Come on, let's have it. You don't believe in the RCMP; they are not that capable of doing the work.

And then what about the management firm that we hired? And the questions, you know, you bring in something, that is fair rule, you can ask any question. You know, a frustrated lawyer, that's what he is out there. The point is, Madam Speaker , that you remember not long ago there was a fellow named Wilson who was investigated and he was charged. And who inquired, who found the information but the RCMP? Did we ask you: were you there when they were bugging the line; were you at the other end of the phone; were you at the meetings with them? No, we let the RCMP do their work.

When we were in Opposition, did we interfere? Not at all. We stayed out because we had confidence in the RCMP. - (Interjection) - We did not; that is not true. That is not correct; you know that's not correct. The point is we never interfered with that at all, and that's why we have a police force, and especially a police force as renowned as the RCMP that we have in this country. It is one of the best police forces in the world. The point is that this group out there, for instance, today, when somebody tries to speak, you all yell in unison because you don't want people to hear.

We have tried; we haven't been perfect - far from it. It is very difficult to play the same game with two different sets of rules and we have tried as much as possible. I have a sore back from being yanked by this guy out there every time I want to open my mouth because we've tried to be quiet. But what have we had? I mean the young members that come in were ashamed the first few days. Now some of them are practically as bad as Don - excuse me - as the members on the front seats. We're supposed to be interested in the affairs of the people of Manitoba and we're spending that kind of money for what?

It is quite obvious; you don't have to be here very long to know that you think that you've got an issue . You think that you have an issue and you want to parade it in front of the public as long as you want. If you are interested - (Interjection) - Afraid of what? You don't think the RCMP - (Interjec tion) - oh, the RCMP will cover the truth. Well, Madam Spea ker, let us make that clear that there's insinuation that the RCMP will cover the truth. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. May I remind the honourable member to address his comments through the Chair? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I beg your pardon?

MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member to address his comments through the Chair? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I certainly will. The situation, as I said, Madam Speaker, we've been here to do a job, to show, and who has been elected to govern? Maybe these members don't like it, Madam Speak er, but there has been, in the last four years also, it was the same thing. I mean they said this is what we're going to have.

We'll stand on our record, we know that this is going to be a good investigation, but they've made up their mind this is what they want and they're going to waste time and so on because they insist that's the way it's going to do it, but it is not up to them to decide, unfortunately. It is our responsibility and we'll stand by it. It is not your duty of wasting time. It is not their duty, Madam Spea ker, to waste time. And they can protest; they can say we think this is the best way to go. We don't happen to think that it is the best way to go.

They want to imply motives, and they've been doing that - they've tried some fancy words like "camel-gate," and cover-up and all that to try to coin a phrase that something was happening. You can't get anywhere. - (Interjection) - I think they're talking about Arabian Nights or something and so on. Madam Speaker , why doesn't the Opposition smarten up, be an Opposition, but when something is being done, something is decided, that's the way.

You know where it talked about - (Interjection) - I've never seen an Opposition in all the time I've been here, that will refuse to pair when members on this side representing the government are working for the government. They want us to know everything that is happening in our departments. Well, how in the hell can we do that when we're standing here for six months a year, Madam Speaker? That is not possible. All of a sudden, they say well we're going to keep you here and all of a sudden we might have a fast vote 3365

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 and then it's going to be decided you've lost the confidence of the public. Mind you, they can go for a week; they can have five members missing for whatever reasons - I'm not going to go into that; that is their problem. For instance, one week, as an example, we can have a member that's sick; all of a sudden, fine, we shouldn't govern anymore. That's the way. Can you just imagine a private corporation being run like that? Can you imagine that? The way it is, do you think they would last very long?

In fact, do you think if the general public knew what was happening, if they knew where we're going - and this is with all due respect certainly, Madam Speaker, not aimed at you, you have nothing to do with it, but I think our rules are so far backward, I think it's about time we looked at that. As I said, if you happen to catch somebody who's not here at the time, will find the government, you're talking about the government's fault. I think this is absolutely wrong. This Opposition, once and for all, are they for big government or aren't they? Are you for big government - (Interjection) - What was that?

A MEMBER: Do you join with your colleagues in allowing yourself to be misled? HON. J. DESJARDINS: Well, misled by what? - (Interjection) - Misled by you, yes. No, I'm not going to join anybody in being misled by you people, not at all. My dear friend, who is here for the first year, he'll have to remember that when there is an election in a democracy, that if a government is elected, they are elected to rule and give the leadership, not to get on their knees and back down in front of any Opposition who figures well if you don't want to play that way, I'll take my bat and ball and go home.

That's exactly what you're doing. You're acting like a bunch of kids. - (Interjection) - One at a time. Madam Speaker, it is so ridiculous to say we're trying to hide things. What can we hide when the RCMP are charged with doing the work, doing an investigation; what is it we can hide? I can't hear everybody ... Yes, the people at the RCMP will find out an awful lot more than we would, or an awful lot more than a judicial inquiry would - that's for sure - and it'd be impartial.

There won't be any cover-up; there won't be any temptation to cover up, and I dare say there won't be any accusation of any cover-up, Madam Speaker. The point is that if we are interested, as we say we are from all sides, in the business of the people of Manitoba, if we want to protect them, and the Opposition has a responsibili ty.

Mind you, the way they use their responsibility at this time of making accusations, or abuse I should say, of naming civil servants, of declaring them guilty before they were judged, or before anything was proven - and I'm not talking only about this, and so on, not outside of the hall, but here. Maybe they should repeat some of the things they say here with a protection; maybe they should go out there in the hall and make the accusations about the civil servants that they make. It would be interesting to see what would happen.

This is cowardly to come here and hide behind the chance that we have of not being responsible just for our actions and make accusations on people when they haven't got a chance to defend themselves. You're not embarrassing us at all. You think you're embarrassing us. Do you think the Minister knows everything that was happening in Saudi Arabia? Is he supposed to know that? You're yelling - you're very charitable - you're yelling at him, cover-up and so on, and he should resign.

I dare say there's not one person in this House who can run a department with the staff we have, and as I say, in the private sector, would you be held here for six, walking around in the halls - just in case there's a snap vote - would you be in here all this time and run your department? Do you think it is easy to do that? Then you want to hold the Minister responsible for everything. No boards; that is the group who are saying get the government out of people's affairs. That's what we hear. It's so difficult to judge what you really want.

Get the government out of people's affairs and then the government should do this; the government should do that. Why don't you know what the staff is doing; why don't you know what it's doing? That's what we get. Then, we get, you're spending too much money; you're spending way too much money. We haven't got the money. It is a deficit. The deficit is the important thing. Why don't we get more beds? Why don't you give us money although we're overspending in this hospital and so on? That's alllright. In anybody else's hospital that's fine, be tough, but not in our area at all; not in our constituencies.

What is it that you want? You're talking about me changing parties - at least I do it openly - you change every day. You have a leader that's been saying me­ too, and he feels that's why he lost the election, because there's to much me-too, me-tooism, and so on. That is the situation we have. So, Madam Speaker, why doesn't the Opposition oppose, yes, in a responsible way? Just imagine you're all on the board of directors of a large corporation, a multi-billion-dollar corporation, and can you just imagine out there that all of a sudden somebody will make a report and you'll all start yelling at the same time?

Can you see that? You're all businessmen you tell us, you can run a business. Can you see that? Can you see out there if the majority . . . ? Because you remember this democracy we're here to defend - of people who have been elected with a mandate to govern, say we find that the best way to investigate that is through the best police force in the world, and then say, no, we don't want that, so therefore we're going to pout. We're going to take our bat and ball and go home; we're going to ring the bell for a few days, or we're just going to keep on coming every day and so on: we won't let you do it.

That is obstruction and that is exactly what this Opposition is guilty of doing, Madam Speaker . Now, Madam Speaker , we've made a decision, and we are going to stay with that decision. Fine, if there's any actual compromise or something that can be discussed with the House Leader, we're always ready to listen to you, but we have put this in the hands of Coopers and Lybrand and also with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

As far as we're concerned, any information that you have as good citizens and as good members of the Opposition, if you don't trust us, give it directly to the RCMP and there will be an investigation and the public will be satisfied. 3366

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 Madam Speaker, this is what we suggest that you do. Let 's have this cooperation if you're not only paying lip service. If you're really interested , all we hear from the other side is the truth; tell us more about the truth, don't hide the truth. We're not hiding anything, and with your cooperation, we can get at the truth a lot faster than with a judicial inquiry. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

MADAM SPEAKER: The motion before the House is that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, moved by the Honourable Government House Leader, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health. MO TION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation; and the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Government Services.

CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: The committee will come to order . We are on Page 81, Resolution 77, dealing with Item 3.(

f) Telecommunications - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the supplement, on Page 53, it's got: "Telecommunications: Assembles, compiles and revises the interdepartmental telephone directory. " I wonder if the Minister could tell us the cost of printing, and how often is this directory revised. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chai rman, this is done whenever there are significant changes that it's believed that it is required to make some changes such as major Cabinet shuffles or government changes or that kind of stuff.

It is printed by the Queen's Printer, so the costs are theirs. MR. D. ROC AN: On the same page, we 've go t: "Government switchboards handled approximately 1 million calls, 30,000 receptions and 10,000 messages per annum." Ten thousand messages for whom? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, this usually involves the switchboards at the provincial buildings throughout the province. The member is aware of provincial buildings, such as in Brandon or Dauphin or Beause jour, Thompson, The Pas.

There's a switchboard operator who takes messages or relays messages to appropriate personnel in the department if they are not there, or handles the calls as required. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose . MR. G. CUMMINGS: Following on that, last night, the Minister stated that the phone system and the switchboard located in the Norquay Building was totally automated, but on the 800 number, the in-WATS line, we get an operator. Where is that switchboard located? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I believe the member was asking where the operator or switchboards for in-WATS lines are located.

That is at the Norquay Building, that's what I indicated, and the automatic switch for the computerized service is with MTS. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I'm not trying to split hairs here, Mr. Minister, but I'm trying to understand how the system works. In the question that my colleague asked, you indicated that the operators would be taking messages. On this in-WATS line, does it also take messages? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe, at least I'm advised that the in-WATS operators do not take messages. They forward the calls. Messages would have to be taken by staff at the destination of the call.

The messages for the operators that we talked about earlier are for mostly the rural provincial buildings where they do not have in-WATS, except now I think in Brandon. Parti ally, in Brandon, yes this past year. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Is there any record of the amount of use that the 800 number is given? The reason I ask the question, Mr. Chairman, is that other than the fact that it's published for everyone to see, it is also, in my mind, not used as heavily as it might be, and I wondered what the actual usage is. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The toll-free service cost $73,200 per year for the government as a whole. MR. D.

ROCAN: On that out-WATS line that we have here in the building, do we negotiate a set fee with MTS on - what does is cost us for an out-WATS line for a year out of the building here? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I have figures for the approximate cost of MLAs' in-WATS, but not out-WATS, the out calls. I don't know if we have that information readil y compiled at this time. The in-WATS is approximately 25 percent of the total in-WATS service, so about $25,000 estimation for the cost of the in-WATS service for MLAs' incoming calls. MR. D.

ROCAN: On the out-WATS line, do we not have a set fee, for whatever it is, probably province-wide here; could the Minister not tell us what the set fee is for that WATS line? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I didn't get that, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think he was asking, was there a set fee? HON. J. PLOHMAN: For what? MR. CHAIRMAN: For the out-WATS line. 3367

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, it's just the cost of prov iding the service. l don't know what the mem ber means by a set fee. MR. D. ROCAN: Well, in the rural areas, we can get an out-WATS line for either 50 miles and then there's a set rate for that 50 miles, or we can go 100 miles or we can take it up to 15 0 miles -the num ber of calls is irrelevant. We can just phone as often as we want on a set fee, I believe, something like $98 or whatever for 100 miles. I'm just wondering, if under Telecommu nications here, they'v e come up with some kind of negotiations with MTS to ... HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the rate that has been negotiated with MTS is based on volume plus dis tance. MR. CHAIRMAN: (f)(1) -pass ; (f)(2)- pass; (f)(3)-pass. (

g) Postal Services -the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, I understand there has been a new inno vation in the in-house postal services whereby there is a coding of the mail as it goes out of the offices. Now the question arises, the staff are being told that it is a temporary situation and yet they are being advised if they want to go ahead and get envelopes with a code already stamped on them, put in place, that they might as well go ahead and do it. Does that mean the decision has been made that this will be a normal procedure from now on? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, that is an effort to determine the amount of volumes of mail coming from each office so each can be assessed, allo cated the appropriate costs. There has been no sourcing of the mall before. So this is a trial to determine and that's why it's called temp orary - a trial to determine how mu ch mail is coming out of each caucus office, Min isterial offices and then the amount can be charged back to each of those appropriations. It's an effort to move towards a fully charge-back, fully recov erable system for mail and therefore responsibility by the individual departments and users. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Has there been some dramatic change or increase in areas that were above and beyond what the normal expectations are that precipitated this move? There are two principles involved here, the same as the in-WATS line and the other is the gove rnment's ability to be able to put material at a reasonable bulk cost in the hands of the people. Is there some concern that certain ML As or one caucus or the other is abusing the system? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Not specifically, Mr. Chairman.

My understanding is that we have not documented the amount and volume of mail that has come out; so it would be difficult to put in a charge-back system without having that experience and that history to base it on. That's the reason for it.

Of course, it tends to make the, as I said earli er, the users more responsible for what they are doing, for the service they are taking. 3368 It's something, in terms of in terms of caucus offic es, that I believe the Legislativ e Assembly Mana gement Commission will have to deal with at some point, because with word processors, the volumes of mail can go up substantially and it may be something that the comm ission will want to deal with at some point just to whether there should be a capping of the dollars available for mailing because, really, the sky's the limit there in terms of the ability to churn the mail out.

It's just an effort to ensure that the ind ividual departments are aware of the amount of mail they're using and take some responsibility for the decisions that they make with regard to mailings. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I guess, again, it leads me to the question of access by caucuses to the public. Is there any reason or any great concern about caucuses exceeding their budgets for mail services at this point? l unde rstand that we are presently given a budget which is an estimated cost.

Is it the plan of Government Services, if they're in excess, to bill that additional cost back to the caucus, whic hever caucus, government or other wise? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, clearly, then, there are no limitations on the volume of mail that can be sent out by any given area at this particular time because the indi vidual mailings are not tabulated from a particular area and charged back. It is paid for from a central appropriation in Government Services and the budget is set every year on the basis of what happened the previous year and on any anticipa ted increase, a trend, so to speak. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: My question then follows that this still leaves some concern in my mind that no matter which party is sitting in Opposition, all of their mail will be funnelled through their caucus cost;

whereas the governing political group will have access, not only to caucus mailing costs, but department mailing costs, and as soon as there become any attempt to cap these things, you're going to limit the ability of the Opposition, no matter who is there, to commun icate as effectively. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that's the case necessarily at all. The fact is that there are fewer caucus members in the government caucus because of the fact that Mini sters have access to the min isterial offices.

There are fewer caucus offices requiring service directly through the caucus office than there are in Opposition, so usually these services are allocated on the basis of num bers of caucus members that are being served. This would be a matter that would be disc ussed and worked out I think through the very democratic system that has been put in place, the Legislative Assembly Management Commit tee, which allows represe ntation from -and the Member for Ste. Rose should be aware -from the Opposition,

whereas with the old Board of Internal Economy that used to operate, there wasn't that kind of represen tation. So we have a much improved situation put in by this government during their first term, to ensure that members of the Opposition have direct input into those decisions that affect them; and that, of course, is not under Government Services.

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 MR. D. ROCAN: I see under Postage where we have almost $4 million and we're led to believe in the Supplement -like will each department have in their budge t next year - a certain amount for postage, so tha t $4 million, will tha t no longer appear unde r Government Services? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, once this system has been put in place for a fully recove rable postal system, there will be a budg et allo cated in each department, in each area.

There will also be a bud get in this area and then it will be fully recover ed, so that it will be a fully recoverable budget allocation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Just one question, Mr. Chairman. The incr ease over last year is over $200,000; is that due to an inc rease in the cost of postage or is it due to an incr ease for some other reason? Did postage go up 2 cents or so in the last year that the cost to government is $200,000 more than it was a year ago? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the note says that there was a 6.5 percent in crease in June of 1985 and that wasn't in the old budget of 1985-86. It happened during the fiscal year, so that is reflected in the new budget for this year. MR. A. KOVNATS: If that's the answer, I' ll be satisfied. MR. CHAIRMAN: (g)(1 ) to (g)(4) were each read and passed. Resolution No. 77: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $2,604, 200 for Government Services, Supply and Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1987-p ass. I'll move on to Resolution 78, Item 4. (

a) Executive Admin istration -the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Just a minu te, Mr. Chairman. Pass (a)( 1) and (2). MR. CHAIRMAN: 4. (a)( 1) -pass ... The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ok ay. "P rovides planning of the space requirements for departments and agencies." The Deputy Min ister right now of Government Services, he moved out of Room 143 of the Leg. to make room for the Deputy Mini ster of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. My question is: where did the Deputy Min ister move to and at what cost? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman , this question was dealt with on Thursday even ing in the comm ittee. We dis cussed specifically that the Deputy Min ister had moved into existing space that was unused at the time on a temporary basis until renovations were comple ted in this building, to allow for his presence back in this building. The Deputy Mi nister of Government Services was being very cooperative in designating himself as the person to move out as opposed to antagonizing another Deputy Min ister, so he was being very unselfish about it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4. (a)( 1) -pass? No. The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D.

ROCAN: While he's being unselfish then, why does the Min ister here now have two offices, one for the Highways and one for the Government Services? Could he not combine the two together? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, this was also asked by the mem ber. I would think that if he's interested in taking as much time as possible on these Estima tes that he would at least go on to new questions.

We had discu ssed this on Thursday night as well, that this is considered as a temporary arrangement and there may very well be a Ministerial - (I nterject ion) - well the Member for Roblin-Russell wasn't here, and we covered this gr ound -the Memb er for Turtle Mountain did ask that specific question -that this was a temporary arrangement. It's certainly too small an area where the secret arial support is for Government Services at this time, for the Deputy Min ister. A MEMBER: The Member for Roblin-Russell didn't ask the question. Maybe you'd learn who the members are. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 4. (a)(1)- pass; (a)(2)- pass. Moving on to 4.(

b) Design - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Under Technic al Services that are listed here, 22 staff years, what qual ifications have those people? HO N. J. PLOHMAN: In the te chnic al area, Mr. Chairman, the techn ical people are architects, engi neers, interior designers and technicians. MR. G. CUMMIN GS: I notice, in the managerial professional, there are 12 . What are the professional people that are emplo yed there? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, you can see that there's a reduction of one there. They are architects and engin eers, the senior people who are also managing the respective areas. MR.

G. CUMMINGS: This is a pet peeve of mine, Mr. Chairman, and concerns the services provided by architects and architectural firms. These people who are emplo yed by the department, do they actually do on-site supervision of the construction? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think, as we touched on this as well last Thursday, that there is on-site supervision that is done by the Project Management. It would be the next section, Project Management sect ion, as opposed to the Design sect ion. MR. G. CUMMINGS: What is the responsibility of the arch itects, structural engine ers and mechanical 3369

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 engineers who are employed in this department? Do they spend their entire year on design of the projects that Government Services is involved in? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the people in Project Management are exclusively involved in site inspecti on, but there are some of the people in here, the senior people, who are also involved in site inspection, but they are primarily involved in the designing and engineering services for small renovation jobs that the government requires.

I believe that the breakdown is some 80 percent or 85 percent of the architectural requirements of the department are assigned out to the private sector. About 15 percent to 20 percent only is in - or are those changed, those numbers? That is rather a large proportion in Government Services is assigned to the private sector. In the Highways Department , for example , that number is almost the reverse , where a lot of the work is done in-house. It's traditional and historical that the expertise has been developed within the department and it has never been really changed .

In the Government Serv ices Department, there has been a conscious effort over the years to move more towards the private sector for architectural and engineering services . MR. G. CUMMINGS: Then , is it fair to conclude that while the architectural services are tendered out to a large extent that the on-site supervision is still largely handled by staff who work for Government Services even though the paperwork and the design would have been done by a private firm on tender? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman , my understanding would be there would be kind of a dual role in that regard .

Our staff would be there to ensure from a more direct way that the government interests are protected , but obviously the consultants, the architects who have been assigned to these major jobs would also do some of that as part of their fee. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I think the Minister is anticipating my next question. If that's the arrangement that we have whereby a fair bit of the on-site inspecti on is done by staff architects, does Government Services receive a preferential rate on some of these tenders?

It would be my understanding that most of them would be on a percentage of cost, private costs, where an architect is engaged outside of the firm that is having the property constructed. I stand to be corrected , but it would probably run in the 7 percent range . Do we have a preferential rate where we have these kinds of arrangements? HON. J. PLOHMAN: My understanding is that our arrangements with the architectural firms are at a lower percentage than the architectural association recommends , so that we are getting a lower percentage on that basis. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside . MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, it may not be the entirely appropriate

section of the Estimates, but there's a matter of concern . We are currently passing through the House a piece of legislation that establishes Manitoba Properties Incorporated to get into the construction business from a major contractor for government purposes, I presume. It 's always been my understanding that this department and this specific branch has been the general contractor for government purposes, looking after the environments of government, generally, on all departments.

We use this department, I think correctly, either to acquire land, farm out projects , as we've just discussed with my colleague, the Member for Ste. Rose, architectural assignment s and so forth. My question to the Minister and to this department: First of all, to what extent have there been any discussions with the branch with respect to what the intention is of Manitoba Properties Incorporated , whose legislation we are amending , to enab le them to become contractors and to build? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we dealt with this issue under Leased Properties, which is the proper place to discuss MPI, but I will just say that the member's colleague for Mor ris asked these questions with regard to MPI getting into the funding of new const ruction . It should be differentiated between development agency and contracting as opposed to funding. MPI will only be providing the loan authority through MPI for funding , but this department will continue, as it has in the past , to be the managers of the projects. MR. H. ENNS: I appreciate the Minister's response.

One of the difficulties in runn ing two concurrent committees , one can 't always be where one's interests lie, and I apologize for taking up the committee's time. I'll read the record of the day. MR. D. ROCAN: Under Signage, we have 660 new projects . What are these? Are we making signs now for the Highways Department or what are these signs? MR. A. KOVNATS: By the way, the washrooms , the signs are only in English , not in English and French . MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll put you on the list . HON. J. PLOHMAN: These are all signs , directional signs, in buildings. These do not involve the Highways Department.

They're primarily signs for buildings, designating washrooms and public areas and so on, and no smoking or whatever the case may be. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)(1)-pass; (b)(2)-pass. 4.(

c) Project Management - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Again , I guess , I would like some explanation of the qual ifica tions of the staff that are employed here in the managerial-professional area . We see 17, which is an increase. The Minister pointed out a decrease of one in the other department . Is there not a great deal of overlap between the two sections here? I understand it's laid out this way to give a better view of how the responsibilities are divided up. I'm asking , does this department - out of sheer necessity - must overlap a great deal with Design, as well , or am I misunderstanding? 3370

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr . Chairman, I gue ss the breakdown could be that the Design area spends most of their time on small projects, as I ind icated earlier, where they are actually involved, the profes sionals, in the design work for small projects;

whereas the larger projects are usually assigned to the private sector. This area would be involved with the management of those larger projects, as well as the budgeting and contracting operations. In terms of staff, we're dealing with Planners, Director of Project Ma nagement, a Director there; Space and Planning Consultants, about five of th ose; Admin istrative Secretary. Senior Ma nagement and the Planning Consultants are part of this group. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Looking at the requests for service ini tiated and actioned, a very substantial number at 1, 295.

Again, I ask the Min ister, if a department brings in a request for construction or renovat ion, is this a fully cost-back department, except for the staff which is being covered here? When it comes to service in this area, it's costing us $1 million, approximately. Are all other charges fully costed back? I assume they are, but are any of the costs of salary here costed back? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, neither for this, Design, nor the Project Management sect ions, is the staff time or any of the costs, costs of staff time, or staff salaries, assigned back to the projects.

They are allocated in here and not charged back. MR. G. CUMMINGS: The question that follows that is, where there is this large numb er of requests that have been initiated, does the architect, if you will, or the professional person who goes out to look at these requested projects, do they have any control on advising whether or not client departments should look otherwise or forget it, or is it totally within the purview of the requesting department? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the department personnel in this

section do advise other client departments and get into qu ite detailed discussions with them as to the requests that they are making for modifications to their space, or additional space requirements. They do ensure, to the extent possible, that the most economic decisions are made based on standards that are set. They do an analysis of the request to ensure that it meets the standards that are set out.

As well, there is a new function that is being set up this year and that is why there's an additional four SY's, that is going to und ertake a more long-range planning process to work with client departments on their long­ range space requirements to ensure there, again, that there is long-term planning for their programs, and that this isn't done in a haphazard fashion as it has been done, to a certain extent in the past, because there hasn't been that service to the extent that it's necessary within the Government Services Department to work with those client departments.

We believe that is going to result in significant savings to government over a period of time and that there will be a better planning function for space requirements. 3371 MR. G.

CUMMINGS: I'd like to very clearly state for the record that it's kind of funny , in my mind, where we are checking out the phone costs, the mailing costs, and all of these other costs, that we're trying very hard to designate them as fully charged back to user departments, and here we're looking at, under Desig n, $1 .495 million; $1. 02 million in Project Mana gement in salaries and services, none of which is charged back to the clients. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I unde rstand that where we have gone to a fully charged-back system, for example, in gover nment vehicles, as we are intending to do in postal services, the analysis has shown that the admi nis trative costs of doing that will be less than the savings that will be incurred as a result of that action.

However, in this particular area, up to this point in time and on the basis of the information that the staff has available, and they are reviewing that in further detail ins ofar as what other jurisdictions are doing; but insofar as the information they have at the present time, it would seem to ind icate that the adminis trative costs of putting in place that kind of system would be less, the adminis trative costs would be greater than the savings realized in demands for space and so on by client departments. So, because of th at analysis, th ey haven 't recommended that change.

It doesn't mean that in the future it won't be considered further and I think there again the Planning Branch may be able to define that in more detail for future discussion at Treasury Board ins ofar as Estimates are concerned. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I guess I find that rather hard to accept, but I don't think I' m well enough armed to get into a di sagreement with the Minister at this particular stage. It certainly seems unusual that the cost of charge­ back in that area, considering that it's strictly salary, would be difficult to keep track of. Unle ss there are further questions, I'm prepared to pass that. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (cX1 )-pa ss; (cX2)- pass. (

d) Land Acquisition -the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Can the Min ister give us a breakdown of the qualifications, again, of the technical and professional people who are emplo yed here? I noticed a very high admin istrative support staffing level also. My concern centres around wha t are the qua lifications of people who are in fact going out and precipitating purchases and, in some cases, where agreement cannot be made, I'm assuming that this branch is charged with making a sati sfactory report that would even tually lead to expropriation hearings or straight expropriation.

So it needs be that their reports to the department be accurate. Wha t are their qua lifications in order to do this? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I just want to say that most of the people in this area are accredited appraisers in the App raisal In stitute of Canada ; th ey have their accred itation. They also have a senior designation with the Inte rnationa l Righ t-of-Way Asso ciation. The

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 Appraisal Institute of Canada requir ements are such that it would stress their skills on the appraisal side, and the Right-of-Way Association emph asizes the negotiating side. So they do have both of those kinds of qualifications. That's the technical people. I und erstand that there was even an award given by the In ternational Righ t-of-Way Association to the department for their training that they have undertaken with their staff. MR. G. CUMMINGS: The que stion follows: why is there more admin istrative support than there are technical people in this area?

Are there some more highly qualified people listed under Admin istrative Su pport or what is the reason for that large number of people? I'm assuming that there would be a fair amount of clerical inv olved there. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the

section heads are all admin istrativ e officer classifications, para-legal type of qualifications in those areas and they are under the adminis trative support classificat ion , as opposed to managerial-profes sional. As well, there is a high clerical component, as the member stated earli er, in this area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. G. ROCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was wondering, how does one go about getting information in regard to land acquisitions, like in the case of expropriations. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I would appreciate if the member could be more specific about what kind of information he would be seek ing. We have the Di rector of Land Acquisition here. I'm sure if he was called on a particular project, or if the member advised me of it, we could get this status and the information. I believe we are doing that. I recall a recent letter that I believe I sent to the Member for Springfield in response to a question to give him the status of the acquisition and expropriation procedu res for a particular project. MR. G.

ROCH: Well, actually what I wanted to know is: is it possi ble to get all the copi es of the documentation that has gone back and forth between probably the owners in question and the department? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Normally I think, Mr. Chairman, that would be confidential information between the two individuals. If the ind ividual landowner wanted to ask his MLA to do something for him, or in tervene, or whatever the case may be, certainly he would give permission, or else provide the member with the documentation since he would have copies of it. MR. G.

ROCH: If, for example, the people feel they have been wrong or they are not satisfied with the way things have happened ,· what route do they have to appeal, apart from the courts. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Apart from the courts, it's a pretty good appeal system, but they do have opportunity for inquiry if the inquiry has not been waived by Order­ in-Council. Inquir ies are usually waived when there are routine additions to right-of-way requirements; for example, on existing alignments where there is no other alternative, where there is not a new route taking place, but just simply the existing route is being widened.

Under those circumstances, it seems rather redundant to have a public inquir y to jus tify the standards that have been established and have been in place for many years in Manitoba with regard to the construction requirements for right-of-way. So, if there is a piece of construction taking place -I'm just saying, from a Highways point of view, or if it be a development like the North Portage Development -there would be opportunities on many of these situations for the individual to register his objection within 30 days of receiving notice of expropriation.

If he registered his objection or her objection, then he would be eligible for an inquir y. An inquir y officer would be designated, assigned, and the hearing would be held and the person would be able to present his case at that particular time. Then, following the decision on the amount of compensation -the Land Value Appraisal Commis sion has set the value -they could appeal that decision to the courts, and their legal expenses would be paid if the award by the courts was 10 percent higher than was assessed by the Land Value Appraisal Commission. MR. G. ROCH: I'm referring specifically to PR 206.

I don't know if you're familiar with that little portion which was rerouted. Apparently, there was a petition presented originally to have that rerouting and I would assume that the petition is public information. I was wondering, is it possible to obtain a copy of that petition, if in fact the re is such a petition. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't recall a petition but if the member wanted to check with me in the Highways office, we could determine if there was.

I believe there was agreement on tha t for the new route from most of the lando wners -if not all of the lando wners -if I recall that project correctly. On that basis, then after initial contacts with the landowners, there was no need to have any further inquiry because everyone agreed with the project. MR. G. ROCH: Mr. Chairman, there was general agreement with most of the lando wners except possibly one or two. I guess the difference there would be that some seemed to feel that what they were led to believe and what happened was not exactly the same thing.

But apart from those landowners there, there are some other ones in the area which questioned the need for having rerouted, especially those people who are unable to get subd ivisions because they're in a classified agricultural area. But there we took a chunk of prime agricultural land to put that road through. Some of those people are just wondering , who are the people who petitioned for that. Who and where are they from? Are they from the area? I don't kn ow. I'll attempt to find out.

I thank you for the letter you sent me in response to my original letter, but what I'm really getting at is to see more details of what happened to bring about 3372

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 that rerouting. I was just wondering how to go about obtai ning that information. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the Planning of the Department of Highways would be involved in that kind of a decision. It would usually come about as a result of not only the professional people in the department making a decision to solve certain problems that exist in terms of traffic patterns and hazards that exist, as well as taking into consideration the wishes of the local councils usually would be asked to pass a resol ution.

If th ere was a rec om mended alterna tive or reco mmended solution by the department, we would usually ask the councils to support that. If they objected, then to work with them to make some changes so that there would be a common agreement with the proposal. So it would have come about as probably an essential planning improvement work that would have been unde rtaken by the department to improve the problems in that area; and there would have been representation made by the MLA at that time and by the councils. MR. G.

ROCH: One final question then, to refer back to awhile ago, if I wanted more specific details on individuals who were not necessarily of a confidential nature, would it be possible then to get together and see if the documentation can be made avai lable? HON. J. PLOHMAN: What we could do is, Mr. Chairman, the member could set up a meeting with myself and the Deputy Mi n ister , and we could review the circu mstances that led to the solution, to the design. We could answer any que stions at that particular time. MR. G. ROCH: Thank you, Mr. Mini ster. MR.

CHAIRM AN: 4.(d) (1) - pass; 4. (d) (2)-pa ss; 4.(d)(3)-pa ss. Resolution 78: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,85 1 ,300 for Government Services, Project Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 87- pass. Now move to Resolution 79, Item 5., Land Value Appraisal Commis sion -the Memb er for Tu rtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Mr. Chairman, the Land Va lue Appraisal Commission, could the Min ister tell us who are the members on that commission, and what is their remuneration? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the members of the Land Value Appraisal Commission, the Chairman, Cameron Harvey, appointed in December of 1976, has been in place for 10 years, Cameron Harvey. He has a great deal of expertise now and experience in that area, a law professor as well. In addition to that, we have the Vice-Chairperson, Grace Kast, and then four other members, William Miln er, Omer Lamoureux, Earl Sterling, and John Ateah and they were all appointed in July of 1982. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)- pass; 5.(b)- pass; 5.(c)-pa ss.

Resolution 79: Resolved that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exc eeding $61 ,9 00 for Government Services, Land Va lue Appr aisal Commission, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1987- pass. Now move on to Resolution 80, Item 6. Emergency Measu res Organization -the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: First of all a general question, Mr. Chairman, while we ha ve appropriations for Emergency Measu res and Land Va lue Appr aisal Commission, in the annual report also is listed the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board.

Do any funds for that Disaster Assistance Board show up in these appropriations, because I was unable to deline ate it if they did? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the only costs associated with this division in that area for the Disaster Assistanc e Board is the provision of a permanent secretary for the Disaster Assistance Board, who works ha lf-time with the Disaster Assistance Board or thereabouts, depending on the demand, because of course members will realize that the workload would vary in that area acco rding to the kinds of di sasters that are encountered in any given year and any given time.

The remainder of the time is spent supporting the Emergency Measures operation. The other admini strative costs of the board and all of the money that is paid out is done through Vote 18. I believe it would be discussed under Emergency Flood Control in the House. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think the Min ister has just answered the question. I wanted to know, specifically, where funds directed toward any type of dis aster problem, any di saster concern where it flowed , and he ind icates that comes from that particular appropriation.

I believe though that I would just ask the Minister at this time whether or not officials in his departments are sending the word out to various commun ities throughout the province that have qua lified at least for consideration under the program - under any one of the programs for relief -whether or not his officials are indi cating to people that the reason that payments are late is as a result of the tardiness associated with -I use the word "tardiness" advisedly -whether or not his officials are saying that's because of the Opposition in the way they're handling the Estimates procedure? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I certainly have not directed any of the staff to say that, nor have I been advised that they have said that. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, we'll discuss this then in greater detail under the proper Estima te item in the House, because certainly that has come not only to myself a month and a half ago, but to other members of the Opposition. It's a pretty serious matter and one that we'd want to deal with in depth at a more proper time. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I would appreciate hearing from the member on that at anytime, whether he wants to - (In terjection) - Well, no, if he feels that there's a 3373

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 problem there and he wants to use the opportunity in the House and feels that that would be the most effective way to do it, fine; and he may want to see me about it as well; so if that is happening that we take appropriate actions then, of course, that would also be I think, productive. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(a)-pass -the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D.

ROCAN: One comment under EMO, where it says: "Provides a prompt and coordinating emergency response on a 24-hour basis." I'd just like to take this time to compliment one Hank Mclaughlan from Portage and a Bill Davidson from Brandon, and also the driver of the Command Centre, who worked through the best part of the night to help us in the Somerset, Swan Lake, Mariapolis areas, to coordinate emergency groups, whatever, like the Hydro and made sure we had water and whatever. I would just like to take a few min utes here and thank these guys. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate the Memb er for Turtle Mountain's words. I know the staff had ind icated that he was dir ectly involved, as I had ind icated in the House, and they appreciated the concern and inv olvement of the mem ber. So it certainly looks like a mutual admiration society at this time. A MEMBER: A well-run department. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(a)-pass; 6.(b)-pass. Resolution 80: Resolved that there be granted to Her Ma jesty , a sum not exce eding $686,400 for Go vernment Services, Emer gency Measu res Organization, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1987- pass.

Moving to Resolution 81, Item 7, Expenditu res Related to Capital -the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, there are only a couple of questions in this area, a very small staff complement. I think we've pretty well explored any questions that we have regarding Acquisition unless other members of the commit tee have questions. Pass, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(a)- pass; 7.(b)- pass.

Resolution 81: Resolved that there be granted to Her Maje sty, a sum not exceeding $1 3,494,800 for Government Services, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 87- pass. We now return to Item 1. (

a) Min ister's Salary. The staff can leave, thank you. The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, first of all I want to make one positive comment and that is that the supp lementary information that we've received, as I said at the start of the Estimates, was very useful and the department has in effect bared itself to scrutiny during the Estima tes and the staff appears to be able to assist the Mi nister in a very capable manner .

I have some concerns that have come up during the course of the Estimates, one which we touched on briefly this afternoon, where we're talking about charge backs to departments. It seems to me that we are gradually getting into a s ituation where some areas are charged back and some are not. I don't think I felt the reasons for charge back in some areas being more jus tified than others was in fact enough to justify the concern that was being expressed in certain of the charge backs whereby other major items were going by.

I also have to point out to the Minister, as he's well aware, as we're all aware in the House at the present time, that there's an issue before us that he has to bear responsibilit y for, not only as a Minister responsible for this department but as a member of the Cabinet and Executiv e Council, and that is the fact that we are failing at this point to be able to bring forward any agreement on having a judicial inquir y. It seems to me that this Mi nister has been in volved with the Executiv e Council all during the period of MTS and MTX's inv olvement in Saudi Arabia.

That in fact, the approval for the beginning of the MTX involvement in Saudi Arabia has carried on under the auspices of the Cabinet, which the Min ister was part of right from the start. So I would ask the Min ister, why he has not taken his mini sterial prerogative to prevail upon his col leagues so th at the people of Ma ni toba can un derstand clearly what is going on with MTX.

I would appeal on the basis also that there are some people inv olved in MTS, a great many very good empl oyees, who are feeling very badly that their Crown corporation is being dr agged through the kind of concerns that are being placed forward right now and not being given the opportunity to have the air, once and for all, cleared . To that end, Mr.

Chairman, I move, seconded by the Member for Turtle Mountain, that, WH EREAS this Min ister is part of a Cabinet who refused to seek the truth of the MTS-MTX affair by avoiding a public inquir y, and WHERE AS this Minister is formally responsible for MTS and has failed to seek the truth in the flogging incident as an example of what happened in Saudi Arabia, that the salary of this Min ister be reduced to one Saudi rial, or the equivalent. A MEMBER: And that's more than you're worth, Plohman. MR. CHAIRMAN: As I'm sure the member is aware, that motion should be given in writing to the Clerk.

Do you have a copy in writing, please? It's been moved by the Member for Ste. Rose, seconded by the Member for Turtle Mountain,

whereas this Min ister is part of a Cabine t who refused to seek the truth in the MTS-MTX affair by avoi ding a public inqu iry and;

whereas the Min ister was formally responsible for the MTS and failed to seek the truth in the flogging incident in Saudi Arabia, that the salary of the Mi nister be reduced to one Saudi rial. All tho se in favour signify by saying aye; contrary minded, nay. I rule the nays have it. MR. CHAIRMAN: A recorded vote has been required. The commi ttee is recessed and we will go into the House. 3374

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 SUPPLY - CULTURE, HERITAGE AND RECREATION MR. CHA IRMAN, C. Santos: Commi ttee, please come to order . The Commit tee of Supply has been considering the Estima tes of the Department of Culture, Herita ge and Recreation. We are now on Item No. 2.(a)( 1) to 2.(c)(3) -the Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I have in my hand the document the Min ister tabled listing grants paid under Appropriations and under Lotteries.

Yesterday the Minis ter un dertook to provide a statement similar to this, giving us the grants that she knew about that were approved, and I wonder if the Mi nister has those with her tod ay. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister of Culture, Heritage and Recreat ion. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Sorr y, I forgot to get the Member for Brandon West a copy of the Supplementar y Information ... - (inaudible)- Anyw ay, I've got extra copies here that can be distributed to any other members who would like to see copies of it. MR. J. McRAE: She's provided my colleagues with copies; that's fine for the moment.

The questions that I had could have been asked without that, but I didn't know that had been made available, previous to now. Mr. Chairman, I'm curious about the criteria that the department uses for its grants to the major cultural organizations. For example, the Manitoba Arts Council, which received in the year ended 19 85, $1.5 million; and I'd like to know from the Min ister what the criteria are for that grant and what services the Manitoba Arts Council provides to the public. HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: As the information that I've just passed out to the mem bers indic ates, the annual operating grant from the department has incr eased to $1, 551,8 00, which is roughly a $30,000 in crease, and in percentage terms that's a 2 percent incr ease. The Member for Brandon West also asked about the programs provided by the Manitoba Arts Council. I would refer him to the Annual Report for 198 4-85 of the Manitoba Arts Council, which was tabled in the House, and which lists in great detail the kinds of programs and init iatives of the Manitoba Arts Council.

It provides a very comprehensive service on behalf of arts and culture interests in the province and has a full range of programs, ranging from arts exposure programs, includes artists in the schools, artists in the communities, a creative arts program, which includes major arts grants, choreographers' grants, writers' grants, a composers' program, playwrights' program, visual arts grants, visual arts project grants, film video grants, film production grants and other short-term grants, as well as exhibitions.

It also has a student-aid program, a touring program, an arts development program, which includes some new innovative programs that provide better access to the arts and culture activities of this province through programs entitled, "Access and Art Adventur es, " and also has a Pu blic Read ings by Man itoba Writers Program, as well as involvement in arts admini stration management development. I think ii the member refers to the Annual Report, he'll get a full sense of the kind of major activities and programs of the Arts Council and their valuable service to the Province of Manitoba. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister referred to various kinds of grants. These are grants made by the Manitoba Arts Council and they are, I take it, for the most part to individuals to develop their artistic skills, or are these to various groups in the province? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: The answer is both, Mr. Chai rperson. The Arts Council provides significant funding for organizations, professional groupings within the province and it also provides assistance to individual artists. MR. J.

McCRAE: Does the money granted by the Manitoba Arts Council find its way to the regional or local arts councils, or are the grants that the regional and local arts councils receive exclusively the grants from the government; and are there grants as well from the Manitoba Arts Council to those regional councils? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Yes, the Manitoba Arts Council, through the Manitoba Arts Gaming Fund Commission, which is the body set up by the Arts Council to di stribute their share of the Lotteries revenue, does provide funding to the Associated Manitoba Arts Festivals Incorporated and to the Manitoba Association of Community Arts Councils. MR. J. McCRAE: No money is granted directly from the Manitoba Arts Council to, for example, the Brandon Allied Arts Council? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: The answer to that is no, but this department, if you read through the Estimate's grants list, you will notice that this department provides funding to organizations like the Brandon Allied Arts Council. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, the Mi nis ter referred last night to a maximum grant to District and Regional and Local Arts Councils of $20,000.00. Are those grants per capita grants? They are listed, Mr. Chairman, under the Lotteries Grants listing on Page 20, Community Cultural Council Grants. HON. J. WASYLYCIA -LEIS: I'm sor ry, was the member's que stion ...

I'm sorry, I was looking for the information. Just clarify the question for me. MR. J. McCRAE: The question, Mr. Chairman, follo ws on some comments made last night by the Minister in response to the Honourable Member for Gladstone. I believe she said last night to a maximum of $20,000 these community cultural grants are granted. I note, in looking through the list, for the Brandon Allied Arts Council there's a $20,000 grant, and the 3375

Tuesday, 26 August, 1986 other councils have differing figures . I'm just asking , are those grants per capital grants up to a maximum of $20,000.00? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: The operating grants provided for Community Cultural Councils are based on the following criteria, I guess, is the word . Eligible to receive an operating grant based on the greater amount of the 1983-84 operating grant awarded, or matched municipal contributions to a maximum of $1 per capita.

For Community Cultural Councils falling within Northern Affairs boundaries, and which serve a population of fewer than 5,000 people, municipal contributions will be matched on a 50-50 basis to a maximum of $1.50 per capita . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, that was a fairly lengthy answer with a lot of detail in it. Could I just ask, is the maximum $20,000.00? Did the Minister say that in her answer? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, and I apologize to the member, the max imum currently is $20,000.00. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, also last evening the Minister stated her commitme nt and that of her government to fostering and promoting arts and cultural activities in our province . Notably missing from her comments was the word "fairness ." Here, again, as the member representing part of the City of Brandon, I have to make the point that when we have a cap of $20,000, it mitigates against the interests of communities like the City of Brandon.

I don 't know whether, if the grant for the City of Brandon was 38,000 , which would approximate our popultion in the city, I don't know if the City Council would match that grant, that would be for someone else to decide . But when there is a cap of $20,000, it mitigates against a city of the size of the City of Brandon, of 38,000 . For instance, if we look at the Dauphin Allied Arts Council , they received there $12,971.00 . I assume, from that number, that's approximately the population of the City of Dauph in and that the Dauphin Municipal Council, or town council, or city council, matches that grant.

In the City of Brandon, $20,000 would not be fair under that formula and I'd ask for the Minister's response to that comment. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: A couple of things need to be pointed out in response to that question. The first is that in addition to the operating grant to the Brandon Allied Arts Council , organizations in Brandon are eligible to apply for a number of other programs, including the Publ ic Events Sponso rshi p Program, the Skills Transfer Program , and the Coordination Assistance Program .

I know for a fact, based on the letters and cheques that have gone out over the last couple of months, that organizations in Brandon have received considerable assistance from this department . As well, it should be noted that the Manitoba Arts Council serves the province as a whole and serves Brandon very well in that regard . MR. J. McCRAE