Manitoba Hansard — 17 May 1982 (Sitting 56B, 32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-56b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 17 May, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): The Honou rable Min ister of Hea lth had 10 minut es remaining. HON. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I' ve always fou nd it very difficult to break your speech during the dinner hour , the half hour that you have before or so like I had earlier; you try to go a little too fast to cover too many things and then it leaves you 10 minutes and it's qu ite difficult.

But I'll try to recap pretty well what I was trying to say mostly to my colleagues, especially the members of our caucus . Basically, Mr. Speaker, I was telling them that they should be very careful from panicking and be very patient. I think that it was easier to prove that the members of the Oppo sition are not giving us a sincere opposition, because if they were they would try to tell us what they feel is wrong and what is right and they wouldn't say that they don't agree with our promises, but then try to egg us on to hur ry up and do a little more - I think that this is one of the things that they would do.

And then I think we saw that they who are great to pu ll out this document and talk about the promises that we made, I think that they saw that their promises weren't kept. If I had a little more time I could have read the whole

article that I referred to and then go back to what they were going to do in Autopac; what they were going to do before they was to reduce the provincia l debt, that was one thing. And in 1977 they were going around telling the kids, go and tell your parents how much you owe, even you and your little baby brother and so on and oh, that was qui te melodramatic in those days. Then it came in that the provi ncia l debt was increased and that we had the biggest deficit ever. Tha t's done now all through the Cons ervative world. It 's not working .

I think that it's obvious that the past government was a complete failur e and in their way, they're admitting it because they didn't follow on. They stopped their policy of restraint. They backed away from it and I' d like to quo te some - of cou rse, they're going to say that my remarks are partial -but let's read from the Free Press of June 2: "Flimfla mmery Defi nes the Reforms of the Bud get White Paper." That was in 19 80.

"It defines the attempts by Health Min ister Bud Sherman to squa re the circle on hospital funding ; defines the initiatives in day care; it defines the integration of han dicap ped children into the pu blic school syste m. In fact, it is the hallmark of the government 's effort to buy favour with the voters with the app earance but not the reality of sudden social concern and will und ou btedly backfire it it hasn't already. People are not so easily fooled as the government seems to think; they now look for the catch in each new announc ement.

The government will end up worse off politically than before," and that was written in 19 80 and we kn ow what happene d. Then the same year again from the Free Press, "Re ading between the lines of the new en ergy initia tives, the emp hasis on health care, the concern about education fundi ng, work place safety and health, the No rton Com munity Devel opment leaves the impres sions of a govern ment which is scared. But if the Throne Sp eech indicates the government is worried it has also shown that it really doesn't know wha t to do about it. They now realize that private sector alone isn't enough ." Mr.

Speaker, it was a govern ment that showed either that it was a mistake but they would n't admit it, that they were going in the wrong way because all of a sudden there was a complete change in all the poli cies; no more freeze, it was throwing money away, it was big deficit, the largest deficit ever, and it was all these social programs they had feared so much. That happ en ed, as I say, roug hly around Februar y 4, 1980, the Bud get Speech with the then Premier of the Prov ince said that he was one of the onl y one s that went alo ng with the Crosbie Bud get. But what did he say?

"Pr emier Sterling Ly on said Saturday that if he had any criticism of the proposed Federal Progressive Cons ervative Budg et it would be that it is not tough enough. I have the impression the Liberals and the Socialists are banking that Canadians are soft," the Premier said. This election will give Canadians a chanc e to show what they're made of. Mr.

Speaker, after this government that was sup posed to be so tough cha nged completely and again, as I mentioned earlier, they came in a cou ple of weeks ago with that big flower, with that big smile -it was the first time they smiled since November 17th and they were so happy to be able to say, we won. And it was a fact, there was a statement of a Cons ervative Gov ernment that out-socialized the socialists and that's why they won.

It wasn't a qu estion of balanced bud get, it was all going to blow the Her itage Fund in a year or so; it was tak ing out the taxes, we were told that we needed these taxes in the days, the gas tax, but these people were all so happ y. But I did not see the flowers the day that the Conservative Bud get came out in Ontario. What do we hear, "We're here in Mani toba let's not talk about Ontario, we don't want to talk about other provinces." It was a different ball game. 2542 So I say to my colleagues, don't get fooled, don't panic and let's take our time with our programs and make it work.

It's going to be very difficult; make no bone s about it and you'r e not going to get any help, not constructive help at all. I think this is the thing, but you might say: "Well, if it's going to be so difficul t that we can' t do it by ourselves, why sho uld we fight? " There are many reasons. I think that the NOP in Sas katchewan are responsi ble for some of the good pro grams that we have now, especi ally social programs and in the health field. I think that they were the con scienc e of this cou ntry; they were never in power federally.

They gave us Med icare; they gave us Phar macare; they gave us hospital programs and they became un iversal and we probably are the envy. Although it's not perfect, we'll have to look at it; that's one of the things we should do is to make sur e that we safegu ard this program; we don't th row it down the sh ute; we don't let anybody destroy this program for us. Look in the States if you think we're in difficul ty and see what's hap pen ing in the States wh ere the

Monday, 17 May, 1982 people go without . So these are the things we do. And then, a ray of hope for the people around also and to fight for this thing. Tha t's okay; we have a lot of people fighting communi sm and we even have some people, as I said, this little Charlie McCar thy in the front , in stead of mout hing Bergen's word he's mouthing Joe McC arthy's words these days and I don't think we should have that kind of stuff in this Hous e. I've mentio ned that before.

I think the impor tant thing that we have to do is fight for the greedy, materialistic, cap italist system and that's the system that we've had to fight for. There's a lot of people who are fighting commu nism. Commu nism, it's proven, has not been worki ng but let's not kid ou rself that this system is that good. When we talk about crocodile tears and all that, let's remember that maybe there's not that much differ ence between the two gr oups.

The only thing we're sayi ng -ju st like if it was a family -is we don't say we'll abandon the younge st one or the sick or the poor because we'll wait and if the old man is successful, well then, it'll fall down and he can pick up the crum bs. We're saying we must rescue those that can' t help themselves; we'll give them at least some security and some minimum care. I think that this is the difference between the parties. It's not a que stion of crocodile tears at all and if it is, and we have to wait - (In terjectio n)- blew it, if anyone blew it's you people. You blew it, you've only had four yea rs.

You don't know where you're going; you have no idea. On one hand you'r e talk ing about free enterprise and then you'r e asking -when it comes to the farmers you don't call it welfare but that's what you'r e ask ing for and it's never enough. We've talked about the plan to help people with the interest to buy a hous e. Your leader during the elec tion, during the campaign laughed at our $23 million but the day before the election lo and behold he was annou ncin.g $20 million and you'r e say ing it's not enough now, and it's $3 million more than you said and these are the kind of progra ms.

Jn fact, when you look at some of the reports, you 've promised more in money than we did, you prom ised because in the last few days you were going wild. You pan icked, you were completely pani cked and you'r e still like this. You'r e on the defensive, you'r e weak and you 're afraid because there are a lot of you ng people, new members here, and you think that they're going to fall for that, but they're not going to fall for that. We're not going to pani c, we're goin g to bring in our programs. We don't have to ans wer to you at all. - (Interjecti on)- That's right. That's right.

We're the govern ment and you are not giving us the kind of oppo sition that we feel we should have to be the gov ernment because you are not sincere. -(I nterjec tion)- Yes, you are not sin cere, that's wha t I said, you heard well. Because if you were sincere you wouldn't bring this thing up and say, this is wha t you 've prom ised, hur ry up , you've had three months to do it. You'd say for God's sake Man itoba's going to be hur t by that, we kn ow you promised it, su re, don't do it but that's not wha t you'r e saying.

You want more, you want more personal care homes, you want more of every thing but then you 're talking about the tax now, you're so damned disappoi nted that we didn't bring the sales tax and you don't kn ow wha t you'r e doing, you'r e so disappoint ed. Like I said earlier, you had all your speeches ready agai nst sales tax so what do you do, you could n't change your speech, you had no idea so you jus t crossed out sales tax and you made your same speech. That's exactly wha t you did. You kno w it's a good tax.

You kn ow that there's no tax that everybody will like it, that anyb ody will lik e but it certainly is a fairer tax than sales tax. All these que stions that you 're talking about to bring it .. . Thank you. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. The member's time has expired. The Honour able Mem ber for Portage la Prairie. MR. LLOYD HYDE (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Deput y Speaker, first of all, Sir, I want to break probably from a little of the tradition and cong ratulate you on havi ng to take over the important position you'r e holding here tonight and these last few days.

Let us trust that the regular Speaker , the appoi nted Speaker , will not be too long being back in his position, fit and well. But to you, Sir, I want to say I do believe that you are making a good job of your position on a short notice. Mr. Speaker , I'm pleased to be able to participate in this Budg et Debate tonight. The Honour able Mini ster of Finance has spent many many hours pon dering over this docu ment, trying to come up with a Bu dget that would be acceptable by his Opp osition and more important, Mr.

Speaker, the people that he serves, that being of cour se, the gen eral pu blic of Man itoba and the taxpayer. 2543 Mr. Speaker, his Bu dget presented Tue sday of last week, did include a coup le or so of good point s, nam ing one or two of them, the hydro freeze and the meals' exemption tax. Mr. Speaker, no one will argue that point. The freeze on the hydro rates, had the Min ister failed to include that saving to the consume r at a time like we are facing today, would have been a disaster to him and to his govern ment.

The meals' exemption tax, we kn ow the Mini ster picke d that up from a resolution presented during this Session by a member in Opposition who proposed an increase from $4. 00 to $5. 00. True, the Mini ster chose to increase that exemption from $4. 00 to $6.00 which is fine, Mr. Speaker , but however the proposal came let us not forget this - the proposal came from the Opposition of this House. It came from the resolution propo sed by the Honour able Member for Sturgeon Creek. However, that's all right as long as it becomes a saving to those who have to buy their meals in restaurants. What I am saying is, Mr .

Speak er, that this was nothing original coming from the Financ e Min ister. It was not original. The taxation freeze on gasoline, noth ing but good can be said about this move on the part of the govern ment un less he coul d cut back on the tax that is levied across the board on the price of gasoline. Ma ybe he will take that suggestion from the Cons ervative Gov ern ment of Saskatchewan. Time will tell. However, Mr .

Sp eaker, there is still no argument when it comes to the liquor and the tobacco tax un less it's from someone who has not been able to kick that habit of smoking and I guess the same should ap ply, Mr. Speaker, to the liquor tax. If one can afford to buy

Monday, 17 May, 1982 it, I say one should not complai n abou t payi ng the tax; 8 percent tax increase on the pr ice of a case of beer, 7 percent on the spirits and 15 percent on wines. I su ppose, Mr. Sp eaker, the Min ister didn't take into consideration possibly the results of all this. He's going to affect the tou rist trade which is one of our big pluses in the Province of Mani toba. It's bound to affect the tou rist trade in the Province of Man itoba. Possibly he never thought of that. Mr.

Spea ker, I sup pose one could go on and men tion the Cr itical Home Repair Program but I want to refer back to that at a later time. Mr. Sp eaker , everyone in this Hou se wants the right decisions to be made for the futur e of Mani toba. The decisions made do not always tur n out to be the best for the good of the people; history has proven that both on the federal matters and on provin cial issues. The Govern ment of Man itoba today has chosen to increase the minimum wage.

I suggest that an increase in minimum wage can not and will not stimulate the job creation that is needed at the same time, especially in today's econom ical strife, especia lly when job crea tion with the busine ss of the private sector being pun ished by the payroll tax. The only jobs that will be created may be govern ment administration jobs; jobs to admin ister progr ams drawn up to contrad ict each of the other's pu rpose. Mr . Speaker, the Budg et of the Mini ster of Finance continua lly refers to programs of our sister provi nces and that of the Un ited States of America.

Tell me, Sir, why must you follow, make responsi ble decisions and design progr ams to reduce the taxa tion on the peo ple of Man itoba and help to decrease the provincial deficit? Mr. Speaker, this Bu dget is almost a clever political move. Everything is hidden, hidden taxation to cover up for the need of dollars. If the average Mani toban was to stop and take a long look at this Bu dget, Mr.

Speaker, at the way it is going to affect him or her, they woul d probab ly be better off with an additional 2 perce nt tax on the increase on the sales tax, something that may not initially sou nd good but may be better in the long run , that is if the government is set on increasing our taxation base. Employers pay pay roll 1. 5 percent tax on all wages. Think what that is going to do and what effect it is going to have on all of us. I mentioned earlier about the hidden taxes, taxes that the average person will be faced with that up till now has not really had to think about.

I'm thin king about the food and the children's clothing, Mr . Speaker . This payr oll will raise the price on all of these goods and the services of Mani tobans regardless of what the Government of Man itoba are saying today. The price of food and clothing will increase - the increased cost of production -it'll all have to be paid for. It will be passed on the consumer without a doubt. Food up to date, Mr .

Speaker, has not been taxed but it will be now regardless, I say yes, un der the socialist Government of Mani toba by this hidden tax levied on the employers, the owner s and the operators of these large food processing plants that we own in Mani toba. Child ren's clothing up to now have not been taxed but the payr oll tax will be collected by the government so I'm sur e the wages of the all employees will be included in the cost of production. Mr . Speaker , the farmer is about the only one who will not be in the position to be able to cover up or pass on that additional cost of the 1. 5 percent on wages.

How can he? He is not in that position to say what he needs to cover the costs of a bu shel of wheat he produc es, that bushel of potatoes he produ ces or that pound of beef or pork that he produc es. The govern ment thro ugh government-control boards and the consumer has control, not the farmer, Mr. Speaker. I was talking to a farmer from the Portage area over the weekend who told me why he qui t operating his small feedlot and why he sold his cow/calf operati on. He was los ing money, Mr . Speaker. He went on to tell me how he had 90 top qua lity Charolais-cross steers on feed.

With the increasing costs of put ting a pound of meat on those steers he ended up , Sir, by losing $10 0 per head on each of those steers. His cost of production kept on increasing right up to the time he had to hire a tran sfer to truck those ani mals to the marke t. At that time, Mr. Speaker, it was 90 cent s per hundr ed weight freight and that cost will be going up with the added tax imposed on diesel fuel. No way, Mr . Speaker , is that farmer in a position to add or cover up his costs of the additiona l 1. 5 percent on the pay roll tax and stay in busi ness and, Mr.

Speaker , the NOP Government saying that they are the friends of the farmer? -(Inter jection)- The NOP party when campai gning last fall prom ised the people of Mani toba many things. One was, that no small bus iness or farmer would lose their busine ss on accoun t of the high interest rates. Mr. Speaker , this has proven to be one of the many lies, the un truths of that gov ernment that they have not been able to live up to. One onl y has to read the daily papers to hear of the new ban krup tcies declared each day. Tell me, where is the help that N.D . Party promised the people of the province? Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Government of Man itoba's $1 7.5 -million Beef Stabilization Program is turning out to be a flop. Beef produc ers from my area are stron gly op posed to this program. No way are they going to let themselves get tied to a government pro gram for six years duration, that tells them that they have to fin ish each ani mal to marke t weight to qua lify. That's jus t pl ain ridiculous, Mr. Speaker .

Why doesn't this govern ment go ahead and pay the cattle producer the $50 per cow that they first said they would do with no strings attached and help the cattle producer over this critical period in the time of production? Mr. Speak er, I want to read into the record a report from the Daily Graphic, our local paper in Portage. Now this report came from a meeting that was held April 30th, Mr. Speaker: "Beef Produc ers Oppose Stabilization Program. The Provincia l Gover nment's newly proposed Beef Stabilization Program is not receiving much praise or appr oval from local beef producers.

"The plan is something that someone has worked long and hard to get the most pu blicity for the least amount of money," says Ken Rem pel, a beef produc er 27 miles southeast of Portage la Prairie. "The government says the $40-million plan is designed to put Mani toba cattle producers on a more equ itable footing with those in other provinces. Under the plan, a producer will receive up to $50 for each cow when they en rol in the plan later this spring. However, once en roled," Mr. Speaker, it goes on to say, "the produc ers will be requir ed to remain in the plan for six years 2544

Monday, 17 May, 1982 to maximize the program' s income stability features. The plan also include s low interest advances to pro ducers and is designe d to encour age and assist cow calf producers to feed to slaughter weight." Mr. Rem pie has 250 head of cattle, does not qua lify for the program because he raises pu rebred cattle. "I wouldn' t join it an yway," he says. "I've done a sur vey of a lot of people in the east part of the province and no one is going to join," said Rem pie. "Nine teen percent of the farmers sell their cattle in the fall and if they do that, they don't qua lify for the program.

Most farmers don't have the facility to finish the calves and they're ju st not going to do it," he goes on to say. "I'll wait un til the details are fina lized, but it seems right now that bad points really outweigh the good ones." lngur d Sigurdson, another well -known beef pro ducer from the Lakeland area su mmed up the feeli ngs of many producers. "I'd be very su rprised if they get much response to that pl an. I wouldn't touch it with a stick.," Mr. Speaker. Another producer who is well known, Bob Smith, a beef producer from the MacG re gor area. He says, "There are three basic problems with that pl an.

First, the plan inclu des a central desk marke ting agency. We would have to put all our cattle through it. We're afraid it coul d mean a market board sne aking thro ugh the back door. Secondly, the plan calls for the fin ishing of cattle and most farmers are not set up for that." That is something, Mr . Speaker , that the Min ister did not take into consideration. Farm ers are also worried because the same gov ernment is running this program that ran the 19 76 program. The 19 76 program proved to be badly disor ganized.

Smith says he attended a local meeting of the Cent ral Cattle Produ cers' Association and most pro ducers there were not pla nn ing to join. Mr . Speaker, that is the feeling of the people, the cattle producers in the Portage area. I believe, Sir, that speaks for most of them in the Province of Mani toba. Mr . Speaker, this govern ment ju st have not been able to give the farmer s the an swers to qu estions they need to kn ow, answers to que stions they are asking and must know in order to make up their own decisions. Mr .

Speaker , the annou ncement that the provincial share of capital gains tax on family farms will be removed is good news. Any rebate on taxes collected will be appr eciated. However, on a large sale of farm land exceeding the $200,000 mark at the rate of 15 percent to 16 percent rebate on the first $1 00,000 is fine , but as I und erstand not too many will like ly benefit from this. Mr. Speaker . the 15 -percent hike on di esel fue l might easily be what could put some of the transfers out of bus iness.

It will be highly un likely, Sir, that any new big trucki ng firms would look to joining the large nu mber of firms that today have their headquarters in Man itoba and when they could operate with a greater margin of profit work ing out of the Province of Sas katchew an. It will be very interesting to see what will happen there. The added costs of diesel fuel to those in the busi ness will ju st be passed on to the consu mer. There is no doubt about that, Mr. Spea ker.

The many hidden taxes that will come out of this Budg et that will affect the average Man itoban are not going to be real ized for a considerable time. Mr. Speaker, the Memb er for ln kster, when he spoke last week in su ppor t of his gover nmen t's Bu dget, he raved on and on and on abou t the way the previous government mismana ged the affairs of the provin ce. You kn ow, Mr. Speaker, the hon ourab le member reminds me of the soapbox speakers that operated in Hyde Park du ring the war. Yes, a lot of us have heard them.

We stood there in awe watchi ng these people up on their soapbox in Hyde Park and wavi ng their arms and trying to convi nce the people that they had all the an swers. Well, I can assure you the Member for lnk ster has not got all the ans wers and nor do I, Sir. He spoke on how the previous government dragged its feet on the Cr itical Home Program. I want to su ggest to him - he said how his governme nt is going to expand and revitalize this program.

I only hope, Sir, for the sake of the taxpayers of the provi nce that when they revitalize that program, as he says they are going to do that they'll watch over that program better than they did in 19 76. I recall, Mr . Speaker , when I was out campa igning for the 19 77 election I came across this little home where a carpenter actua lly had cut out practically the whole side of this home to install win dows; one was a lovely big pictur e window. Mr . Speaker, that pictu re win dow itself, that uni t, was worth more than that entire home. Yet, that government at that time, let these programs ramble on.

They went on and rambled on. They ju st had no control over them and I' m afraid, Sir, that the same will happen again. So many of the programs the NOP Government supp orts are unr easonab le. They get carried away; they can't keep control of them and have little regard, if any , for the dollars they are spe nding. Mr.

Speaker, I find it very alarming that the Government of Man itoba who in six short months has put the people of Mani toba in the position of facing the largest deficit in the history of this provinc e, and has stated that it will be borrowing $750 million on the world money market in its first year of office. Yes, they laugh, the brag about it almost. Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't believe the voters of Man itoba ever thought last November that the NOP Government woul d be doing that -(lnterject ion) no, that's right, there was no word mentione d that they would be spe nding money to that degree. Mr.

Speaker , it is my opinion that this provi nce is heading to the point of far too much government involvement, instead of cutting back. I wonder ju st what the provin ce's economic position will be after ano ther three year's of socialist government. I do sup port my leader, the Leader of the Opposition's amendme nt on this Bu dget. Thank you ve�much. 2545 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Brandon East. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Tha nk you very much, Mr. Speaker.

This is a very interesting su bject, a very interesting debate -(lnterject ion) well, I'll have to think about it I want to say that I rather enj oyed some of the remarks made by the preceding speaker, the Memb er for Portage la Prairie. Although he's not given to the colourful phrases and the super lative adjectives expected of the Mem ber for Fort Garr y, neve rtheless he talks like a true Conservative; indeed, the Member

Monday, 17 May, 1982 for Portage is a true Cons ervative and at least he doesn't talk out of two sides of his mouth as some other members op posite ha ppen to do from time to time. Mr . Speaker , the Memb er for Portage said among other things, that the problem with our party in go v ernment is that we might have, or words to this affect, too much government and he, indeed, was concerne d about too much governm ent. And that is a leg itimate Con servative position; it's a neo-Conservative posi tion, I might add, Mr.

Speaker, a modern-day Conser vative, some people use the term neo-Conservative position, where they follow the philosophy that the least government is the best government and that is a leg itimate position. There are other legitimate posi tions, Mr. Speaker. I don't happen to agree with the position of the Mem ber for Portage but he's entitled to it and I would rather hear someone sou ndly say: "This is where I stand and I would really like to see taxes cut and programs cut," because I th ink, really, this is what the Member for Portage does believe in and he does state it and he's true to his principles.

But so often we get a lot of huf fery and puf fery from members oppo site and we go on talk ing ad infinitum and perhaps ad na useam about philosophical positions and policy positions and so on and it really leaves me rather confused as to where the members sta nd, because we're criticized on the one hand for raising taxes and on the other hand, we're criticized for not spending enough money on certa in programs so I really get confused by some members opposite. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that we have to recognize in this Legislature, as indeed the peop le of Mani toba recogniz e, that the role of the Provinc e of Ma nitoba to hold is a very tough role; that to develop the provi nce in a mean ingful economic way is a very difficul t chal lenge. It's a challe nge that may be almost insurmoun table to any Provinc ial Governm ent. We indeed have a limited resource base.

We have some very good resources but let's face it we, un fortuna tely, do not have the ple ntiful oil and gas, the various petrole um supp lies of the Province of Alberta, indeed, we don't have the modern resource assets of the Province of Saska tchewan. While we have some excellent miner als, base metals and so on, while we have a very rich but rather small agricul tu ral base compared to the two western provin ces, to the two pr ovin ces to the west of us, relatively spea king our resource base is lim ited.

Unfortuna tely we are distant from major markets so it makes it rather difficult for some of our manuf acturers to compete and the local marke t is rather small. Our domestic market is relatively small because we have a vast geography but we have barely more than a million souls inhabiti ng this great province of ours so it is, indeed, very difficul t at any time to see significant economic growth occurring in our secondary indus try in particular. In this day and age, Mr . Speaker, I think we must become aware, more than at any other time, that indeed we're not an economic island un to ourselves.

That phrase I had used for many years while in Oppo sition, and previously when in govern ment, that we have to recognize, as sometimes we don't wish to recogn ize perhaps in this Hous e to the extent that we should do, that we are, indeed, affected by the national econ omic situation. Inde ed, we are affected very much by the eco nomic policies that come out of Washi ngton and if the Federal US Gove rnment insists up on having a high interest rate policy for whatever reason, there is going to be a negative impact on the American economy which indeed spills over, unf ortu nately, into the Canadian economy.

There's no dou bt, Mr . Speaker, that we are living in very tough times and some of the most solid, large corporations that we see amidst us in the Un ited States and Cana da are suffering very drastically at this time. Compani es that have had a very, very solid and long record of economic growth, of industrial growth, who have paid their shareholders good retu rns, good dividends, are now suffering and they're shouting loud and clear why they are suffering. I'll ju st use a cou ple of exam ples that appear ed in recent newspaper articles.

One arti cle I have which was reported in the Free Press of today but comes out of the Ne w York Ti mes News Service is of the John Deere Company of Moline , Illi nois and it is a good company, it's a company that has had an excellent record of growth, an excellent record of payi ng divi dends, an excellent record of ju st sheer increasing produc tivity through the years. But here the economic recession is becoming so bad that John Deere is now being affected.

I'll ju st qu ote a cou ple of senten ces here from this article: "But spring has come late to the mid-west this year and a slackening in the demand for agricultu ral equi pment has been one result of that delay. Conseque ntly Deere and Comp any, the farm imple ment industry's largest and most profitable company , is cutting back in the time when it would normally be exp anding." Then it talks about "Deere predicting a serious decline in earnin gs this year and announc ed that it would slash productions schedules by an additional 5 percent, dropping the level of output to 15 percent below its last year rate.

At Deere, a well -disciplined and conser vative organ ization where management decisions are made by consensus, the predominant feeling is that interest rates will stay high enough to keep demand for farm equi pment , its main product line, below the anemic levels of last year. Comp any officials complained bitterly about the Bu dget impasse in Washin gton an said it was ruining busine ss pros pects and wrecking havoc with its pla ns." Then the

article goes on to say how Deere has earned a spar kli ng repu tation for its plan ning and execution over many decades and how it has had an enviab le dealer network and where it's eng aged in heavy investment in new plant and equipment over the years. I'll quo te and this is the last two sentences: "But the rece ssion in the farm econo my, the worst since the 19 30s," that's the period of the great depression, "is blemishing Deere's remarkab le performan ce, 14 percent of its 50,000 workers are already unem ployed with more layoffs on the horizon." 2546 Mr .

Speaker , I thought it was useful to relate to one very suc cessful well-kn own large American company and the difficulties it is ha ving in the Un ited States and there are many reasons that effect the growth of any company and it's sales, obvious ly. Certainly one major reason is the American recession, cou pled with very high interest rates. Looking at this coun try, to use an exam ple, where else should we look but at the Canadian Pacific Compa ny, CP is one of the largest

Monday, 17 May, 1982 corpora tions in Canada, and it too is being hit by the recession that we're now experiencing and if anyone has any skepticism that we are, indeed, in a serious recession all you have to do is look at the evidence presented or the data presented to the ann ual share holders meeting earlier this month of the Canadian Pacific Ltd. That company is Cana da's biggest com pany, by virtue of its $12 billion a year Cons olidated Revenue s in 19 81. It reported, Mr.

Speak er, a decline of 65 percent in first qu arter profits and CP Chairman, Frederick Bu rbidge said there could be more bad news later this year. That development certainly mir rors the dep ressed state of the Canadian econo my, in gen eral, and I would say, Mr. Speaker, and this drives the point home, is tha t no large or small company can claim immuni ty from the cu rrent economic recession that North American, that Can ada is exper iencing. So we, not being a economic island un to ourselves, are participa ting, un fortuna tely, in this gen eral eco nomic downturn wavi ng over the North American economy.

I su ppose you could make an argument that whatever we do in a Bud get in Ma nitoba won't have that much affect on our economy but, Mr. Speaker, I think you could make a case tha t it does have some marginal affect one way or the other. The refore, it's incumb ent upon any Pro vincial Govern ment in Mani toba to do whatever it can to offset the tide of reces sion, to do whatever it can to hold back the economic decline that is pressuring us. Mr. Speaker , many people talked about a balanced Bud get and I su ppose we could have had a balanced Bud get. How do we get a balanced Budg et anyway?

Well, there's no magic about it, you co uld raise taxes even. more than we've raised taxes; we could have added even more to the Health and Education levy; we could have added some to the sales tax; we could have increased personal and corporation income tax, cer tainly we could have raised more taxes, that is a possi bility, we could have offered that aven ue, we could have pu rsued tha t avenue; certainly, we could have cut programs, tha t's an other way of coming to grips with the so-called balanced Budg et.

We could have simply said, well even though inflation is running a fairly steady pace still with us we won't worry abou t that, we will not increase the funding for thse different programs whatever they maybe, in Education, in Health, in Hig hways or Agriculture, wherever, we won't increase these because we don't have the money so the increase will be less than inflation. Of cou rse, either zero increase or perhaps an increase less than the rate of inflat ion and if it is less than the rate of inflation, Mr.

Speaker, it means that there is de facto cut back and tha t is, of cou rse, wha t we expe rienced in Mani toba for several years und er the pre vious Lyon administraton wh ere, particula rly the first two years of acute protracted restraint, where the rates of increase were way below the level of inflation with ju st a fraction of inflation rates and, as a resul t in a real sense, programs were cut back across the board in Man itoba, whether you look at our social welfare field, tha t is health programs for the mentally retarded or what have you, or whether you looked at education, or whether you look at any of the governmental departments and govern mental programs.

There was a real reduction in those services. It seems to me, Mr. Speak er, tha t in the November 2547 19 81 election the people for Ma nitoba told us lou dly and clearly that they didn't like the acute protracted restraint appr oach of the Lyon Govern ment; that they did not want their Provincial Government to cut back severely in help for the handicapped, in help for the aged, in help for the poor, in help for our educationa l systems.

They said they wanted a government that was caring, a govern ment that was going to take a more prudent appr oach to social programming, a party that could bring in a government that would, indeed, be concerned about hum an development, socia l devel opm ent , in addition to economic development. I ask, Mr. Speaker , there's a great amoun t of debate about whether we should have a deficit or whether the deficit is too big or what kind of deficit we shoul d have.

I don't kn ow what's so magical about this matter of a deficit or a su rplus in some ways, there's been so much talk about the need to balance the Bu dget. I say if we bala nce the Bud get per year why don't we bal anc e the Bu dget every quar ter or, better still, why don't we balance the Bud get every month, or maybe we should balance it every week, or how about every day or how about every hour? Then of cou rse, it gets ridiculous. The point being, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing magical about balancing the Bu dget over the year, year by year.

Certainly wha t is more important is to look at the budgeting, the spen ding and the taxing by govern ment over a period of the busine ss cycle. Sur ely wha t we want to do is to use to the extent tha t we can, is to use govern ment spending and taxing power to offset the bus iness cycle and, therefore, Mr . Speaker, it is most appr opria te that our Min ister of Fina nce and that this govern ment brought in a deficit Bu dget at this time.

It is most appropr iate to have a Bud get deficit of the size that we did because this Bu dget with the size of deficit we have I'd say, is stimulative of our economic situatio n. If it was bal anc ed, it would be less stimulative. I would sugge st, Mr . Speaker, that the degree of stimula tion is indeed modest and is not out of line. In fact, some peo ple coul d argue maybe we shoul d have had a bigger deficit to have a little bit more stimulus.

But we want -(Interjec tion)- well, the member asks me a qu estion from his seat, under what circumstan ces I would see it being balanced. ! say, as I said before, I'd see it being balanced over a period of years, over a period of a busine ss cycle. We have to pay our way, I know that, we have to pay our pay, but I would remind the honour able member if he wants to do a little bit of study of the history of economies of a lot of the western natio ns, that some cou ntries have had deficits for 30, 40 years and they're still operati ng. The major thing is to see whether there's a deficit in terms of employment.

Sur ely our objective is to get the maximum amount of employ ment. Surely our objective is to get the maximum production of goods and services. Tha t's wha t we want, real goods and services. That's the objective. If it takes deficits at some time by the province to help achieve that, we won't reach that goal ou rselves, but we can do something. Therefore I say if we can do something, indeed we shoul d and indeed we have. But having recognized that we have a stimulative deficit Budg et, I want to remind members that if we compare ourselves with what's happene d so far across

Canada this year, looking at the Bud gets that have been brou ght down by other provinc ial Min isters of Financ e, you 'll see that Mani toba is in a very interme diate position. As a matter of fact, Mr . Speaker , every provi nce except Queb ec and Newf ound land have brou ght down their Bud gets for the '82/83 year, so we can compar e ourselves with the other seven provinc es and you 'll find that lo and behold the exp enditur e side, the two provin ces that have had very very sharp increases in spending, are the Conser vative provin coe of Alberta and the Cons ervative province of New Bru nswick.

The Provi nce of Alberta had an exp enditur e rise this year, Mr . Sp eaker, of 27.3 perce nt. Please note, our increase is 16 .4 percent. -(Interj ection)- Well, the Mem ber for Pem bina should keep his cool. If he can' t keep his cool, I tell him to shut up . I tell him to be qu iet for a moment. I am qu oting the comparative figur es that have been provided for us in the Globe and Ma il Repor t on Busine ss -(Interject ion)- and , Mr . Speaker, using the compar ative statistics that we've had, we have a 27.3 percent in Tory Alberta as I said and a 22.3 percent in Con servative New Bruns wick.

It's rather interesting that there are some provinc es that have had a smaller rise in expenditu res than our selves. I' m not su ggesting we had the lowest rise. In fact, I wouldn' t want us to have the lowest increase, but there are provin ces, the two most Cons ervative spending increases, the smallest spe nding increases were in Br itish Columb ia 8. 1 percent, in Nova Scotia 6.6 percent. But the point I'm making , Mr. Speaker , is that our increase in spending is intermediate, it's somewhere in the middle. If you look at what happens to the deficits, Mr. Speaker , you 'll see we're in plenty of company. Mr.

Speaker , the only provi nce that budg eted a su rplus this year was the NOP gover nment of Saska tchewan. That was the only provinc e and they budgeted for a $210 million su rplus for '82/83 and they kicked them out of office. But every other provinc e in Canada had a deficit and I think if you look at the listing, they all had an increase over last year except Nova Scotia and Sask atchew an. The Saska tchewan bu dget is not passed.

There will be a new bud get brou ght in by the new Conser vative Financ e Mini ster and I daresay, with the cuts in their gasoli ne tax, I wouldn' t be sur prised if they're into a deficit as well. But here's Alberta, in 19 81/ 82 they had a deficit of $260 million. This year, their bu dget deficit is pro jected to be $2.4 5 billion, $2.450 billion deficit com pared to a $260 mill ion deficit last year. Do you kno w why it's so big, Mr . Speaker?

In a way you have to un derstand there is the He ritage Fund and so on, but I'm comparing their bu dget situation this year to last year on the same basis and there's been a sharp increase in their deficit financing and for good reason, because the Provi ncial Treas urer of Alberta want ed to help stimul ate the Alberta economy because it too, is feeling the downward effects of the nationa l eco nomic recession. -(Interjec tion)- Well, there may be political reasons. Br itish Colu mbia's deficit last year was $280 million, this year projected to be $360 million.

New Bru nswick , last year was $200 million deficit; this year it's esti mated to be $420 million, more than double. Incide ntally, Mr. Sp eaker, New Bru nswick is smaller 1982 than Man itoba and when they have a $420 million deficit with a population of about 200,000 or 250,000 less than Mani toba, I say that they are into a deficit program in a far more serious way than we are. They have a Conser vative government as well. lf you look at the Cons ervative Govern ment in Nova Scotia, what's their budg et projection this year? $390 million deficit.

Princ e Edward Isla nd, they also have a deficit relatively small, but they're a small province, a $10 million deficit. As I say, the last provi nce I have on the list is Saska tchewan and it had a su rplus of $21 0,000.00. But the fact is that there are provin ces who are adopting, if you'd like to say this, a Keynesian appr oach in the belief that major increases in government exp enditur es are an effective method for cou nteract ing the economic recession that we have. So, Mr. Speaker, the lesson to be learned from this is that with our deficit is we are in an intermediate posi tion in terms of deficits.

There are many provin ces that have bigger deficits than us. There are one or two, like Saska tchewan, which has a su rplus, PE I which is very small, which is smaller than ou rs. So what's happen ing in Mani toba is not out of line with what's been happ ening across Canada. -(lnterjec tion)- 1 say, Mr . Speaker, as I've said before, the reason in terms of deficits, govern ments almost automa tically go into a deficit position with a downturn in the econ omy. Why?

Because the revenu e growth doesn't occur that normally occur s when you have a more positive rate of expansion and at the same time govern ments are requir ed to maintai n certain servi ces. As a matter of fact some expenditur es rise. Var ious social welfare expenditu res rise in times of reces sion because more people are un employed. 2548 Mr. Speak er, I say that on balance, it's good. On bala nce we have a good Bu dget as I said in the begin ning and it's stimulative, it's a good deficit, it's a sti mulative deficit.

As I said earlier we could have had no deficit - before the Member for Pembina got into his seat - I said earlier we coul d have had no deficit if we want ed to raise taxes or if we wanted to cut govern ment progr ams, cut government expenditu res, but our decision was that it's necessary to maintain gov ern ment programs and in certain areas, bring about certain expansions that were required.

At the same time we recognized we needed more money but we didn't want to raise the amount of money that would have balanced the Bud get becaus e if we did that we wouldn't have been able to be in a stimulative position as we are at the present time. Having said that, I repeat, this is a rather modest effort compa red to what's going on in some of the other provin ces. Mr. Speaker, there's no qu estion in my mind that our AA credit rating will be maintain ed, it's a very good rating. We obtained it during the Schreyer admin istra tion. It went from A-plus to AA.

I say that our rating will, even though we have a slightly larger deficit than before, our rating will be maintained and the reason for that, Mr. Speaker , is that our taxing capacity is good compared to other provinces. In other words, if you compare the tax structur e of Man itoba with the tax structur e in other provinc es, you 'll see that we're nowhere near as high as many of the other provinces in this countr y. In fact, in some instances we have the lowest rate of tax.

Monday, 17 May, 1982 If you look at personal income tax, it's relatively high but it's not the highest. Our personal income, this is as a percentage of federal basic tax, is 54 percent in Man itoba but compare that with 58 percent in New found land, 56.5 percent in Nova Scotia, or 55.5 per cent in New Bruns wick . As I said, there are some provi nces a bit lower than us but the fact is that we are not at the highest level. Look at our sales tax.

We all kno w in this Ho use that at 5 percent, exclu ding Alberta which doesn't have a sales tax, at 5 percent we remain the lowest in Canada of all of the nin e provin ces and compare this with what we see to the east of us: Newf ound land, 11 percnt; PEI has a 1 O percent sales tax; Nova Scotia has a 1 O per cent sales tax. They're all Tories. New Brunwick Tory Govern ment, 8 percent sales tax: the Levesq ue Gov ernment of Quebec, 8 percent; the Ontario Con serva tive Govern ment, 7 percent and British Colu mbia, which is the same thing as a Con servative Govern ment is 6 percent sales tax.

So the credit rating com panie s kn ow ful l well that we have lots of capacity in this province for additiona l tax if that ever is necessary and that's taken into consideration when you look at the tax structures. If you look at our corporation income tax on small busine ss we're well in line, we're agai n around the middle and, indeed, with large corpor ations we're second from the top other than B.C. Of course, the other thing, Mr .

Speak er, that I must point out to my friends who like to tell us how good things are in Alberta, British Colu mbia and Ontario, that they have that invidious flat rate premium tax for health care where now, in Ontario, if you were a family in Ontario you'd be paying over $60 a month premi ums towards health care. As you might recall, Mr. Speaker, the NOP Government in 19 69, reduced the Medicare pre miums by half and I believe it was in 19 70 we eliminated the other half and went on to a gener al taxa tion method of paying for our health care in this provin ce.

That's a step that I'm sure the people of Man itoba welcomed and I'm pleased that we are still in that position. But let's face it, a Medicar e premium levy is a form of tax and it's a very very regressive tax. It 's even more regressive than the sales tax. So the point is, that we have an excellent credit rating and in my view, that rating can and will hold. The other point I would lik e to make, Mr .

Speaker, which members oppo site seem to wish to ignore or certainly don't want to talk about and that is the value and the inherent good that is coming about from some of the many programs that we have put in place as a Provi ncial Government. Some of these programs, or all of these programs have been in existence, I sup pose, for some years now and they may have been cut back and so on, but they were maintained and I think it's a recognition by all parties that there's some basic services, basic progr ams, that are essential. I think maybe it's a matter of degree to which extent you want to finance them.

There may be a difference of degree but I can say without hesitat ion that I am pleased that we are provi ding more money for health care in Man itoba. When they criticize the Budge t, whey they criticize the deficit, I say, are you going to cut back on health care? Should you cut back on health care? We have probab ly one of the most sophisticated health care 2549 systems anywhere in the world and I believe that it's our job to ensur e that the excellent health care system be maintained and if, indeed, not maintai ned, even improved.

I think our Min ister of Health, in his Esti mates, has shown that there are ways and means that we can indeed improve our health delivery system and we have, in con nection with that, a five-year program of construction of nur sing homes and hospital facili ties around the province. So I'd li ke the members to tell us if they think there shouldn't be a deficit and that should be accomp lished by means of cutback in exp enditur es. I ask them, woul d they cut back the expen ditures in the field of Health or would they have the expenditu res such that we could n't keep up with the rate of infla tion?

Similarly, in the area of social services, I contin ually am amazed at the vast array of social service agencie s that are fund ed by the taxpayers of Mani toba. I think that is to the credit of the people of Mani toba that they are prepared to help those less fortun ate than themselves, that they are prepared to help the elderly, that they are prepared to help the hand icapped, the mentally retarded peo ple and those that are generally disadvantaged .

The Department of Com munity Services has a vast array of programs to help people who are handi capped, who are mentally retarded and, as members kn ow, we are now developing a more sophisticated day care program and I believe that this is worthwhile and the exp enditur es in that area are most worthwhile and are productive in our economy. In the area of housing we have indicated a major thrust in housing construction and housing repair and this is something that will be welcomed by the people of Man itoba.

This is something that is sorely needed, partic ularly when high interest rates are thwa rting the private sector, when high interest rates are making it virtu ally impos sible for young families to be able to afford housing, where it's making it vir tually impossible for consu mers generally to put their funds into housing because they simply can' t make the paym ents, at least this is what a lot of young couples tell me. The field of education, we take it so much for granted. We have an excellent education system in the Provinc e of Mani toba and I think we take it for grant ed.

We have something really good going for us here; we have excellent teachers, we have an excellent system, we have a system that maybe envie d by many places in Cana da, indeed, maybe envied by the people all over the world. But there are monies that are requir ed to sustain and maintain and develop educa tion in this provinc e and I'm pleased that those pro posed exp enditur es have been put forward to this Legislature for app roval.

So there are many, many areas that we have increased our spen ding, there are many areas that I haven't mentioned but, gen erally speak ing, it's my belief that the people of Mani toba are appr oving of these initiatives, are appr oving of the Hea lth Car e system that we have, of the system that we have to help those that are less advantaged than ourselves. So I say, Mr . Speaker , for all the criticisms I hear from the other side, exactly what woul d the Conserva tives have done, what do they propo se, they don't tell us really what they think should be done?

Should we cut expenditu res, should we cut the programs that we

Monday, 17 May, 1982 have, should we have reduced the funding for Heal th Care, tell me? We have the ans wers and we sub mitted the answers by vir tue of our Estimates, those are our ans wers. that is where we stand, Mr. Speaker, but I say all the critics on the other side, for all their huffery and puf fery, have not told us ju st what programs they want. Let them stand up here and be specific, let the Memb er for Pem bina stand up and be specific, where would he cut, tell us?

He's afraid to tell the people of Mani toba -(Inter jection)- Well I'd eliminate the Memb er for Pembi na, I'd eliminate his riding, because the Member for Pembina said he'd eliminate the MLA for Brandon East so this is a tit for tat interjection . The fact is, Mr . Spe aker, the Memb er for Pem bina and other members oppo site are afraid, where is the Member for Roblin, will he tell us where to cut the Bu dget, where will the Member for Roblin cut the Budg et. If he'd tell me I'd be glad to hear specifically what part of the Health Budg et would he cut, what part of Education would he cut? MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour able Member for Rob lin-Russell on a point of order. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin-Russell): The Honour able Mem ber for Brandon asked me where I've been, if he will give me the privil ege floor I'd be more than pleased to tell him where I've been since this government took office. Mr . Speaker , I don't think I've ever seen a mo re weak gov ern ment , mo re un q ualified .. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. I do not believe the ho nour able member's remarks constitute a point of order. The Honour able Min ister of Com munity Services has two minutes remaining. MR.

EVANS: So I say, apar t from the vague gener ali ties they included in the interjection by the Member for Roblin, I woul d like the ho nour able members to specify to the peo ple of Man itoba precisely and exactly what they would cut. There's these spending Estimates in front of them and they can read it as well as anybody else, or alternatively would they raise taxes, where would they get the tax money? They don't want to cut, what taxes are they going to raise, would the please tell us?

Are they going to raise per sonal taxes, are they going to raise corporation income taxes or are they going to increase sales taxes? They don't seem to lik e our Health and Educa tion levy; our He alth and Education levy is a fair tax, it is much more equitab le, as the Min ister of Financ e expl ained, than a sales tax. So, Mr . Speaker. I would like the members oppo site to tell us ju st where would they raise taxes. I sugge st, Mr.

Speaker, that the peop le of Man itoba on November 17 , 19 81 indicated that they don't want the kind of gov ern ment they had before un der the previous Premier of this provin ce, the Leader of the Conser vative Party; they don't want acute protracted restraint; they do not believe the philosophy of members op posite that the least gov ernment is the best govern ment, they simply don't believe that, they rejected that. They do appr eciate that the govern ment can maintain a good Hea lth Car e system, they don't want to see that cut back.

They do appr eciate the fact that we have a fine education system and that should not be allowed to deteriorate. Mr . Speaker, we have presented a good Bu dget, it's a Budg et for our times; it's a Bu dget not out of line with some of the other provinc es, as I've expl ained; it's a Bud get that the people of Mani toba accept. We're going to have to pay more attention to economic thrusts in years ahead and, indeed, this govern ment will do. We will, as we proceed, Mr . Speaker , follow our principles of humani ty first and social ju stice.

These princip les will prevail and it will include our concern for provi ding jobs for the people of Mani toba as well as our concern for social secu rity. We simply don't believe in the Tory econ omic philosophy, oth erwise known as the trickle-down theory; some peo ple call it the horse and sparrow theory -you feed the horses and ultimately you'll have a little left to feed the sparr ows. I say, Mr. Speaker, that kind of philosophy, that trickle-down theory as is espous ed ultimately by people of the economic right, will simply not work and will not be accepted.

Our Bu dget is a Budg et for the times, our Bu dget is a Budg et that I kno w, talk ing to my constitue nts for three days last week, is well accepted by the peo ple of my riding and I think they're typical. I spent three days in the City of Brandon includin g talk ing to a busd river and a bus driver is someone who comes in contact with hundr eds of peo ple every day and, Mr . Speaker , I can tell you that the people of Ma nitoba think that the first Bud get brou ght down by the Ne w Democratic Party Government is a good Bu dget, a sou nd Budg et and it's well received by the people. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Niakwa. 2550 MR. ABE KOVNATS (Niakwa): Thank you very much, Mr. Spea ker. It gets to a point where I almost don't know how to handle the situation. There's people up in the gallery and there's people up in the press gallery to take down all the words of wisdom that is going to be espoused by myself in the next short time. There must be one door open in the gallery because I see my wife and a cou ple of neighbour s up there so they are able to get in. First of all, Mr .

Speaker, I cong ratulate you on the position that you 've taken as being the Deput y Speaker and taking over in place of the Speaker who is not well at this time. I woul d much rather see the health of the Speaker much impr oved and be sitting in the Chair in you place, Sir, but at this time I respect the position that you are now tak ing over and I can always say that you 've done a good job and I have no compl aints concerning the Speaker and the things that you have done up un til now.

First of all, I would ju st like to make a cou ple of remarks concern ing the Honour able Memb er for Brandon East, the Min ister of Communi ty Services, I believe where he said it was all right to have a modest deficit. The Min ister considers $400 million a modest deficit. Does he consider murder a minor misdemea nor ? I notice that on page 221 9, June 25, 19 71, the Min ister made a remark in Hansard, "And ano ther exam ple is Sau nders Aircraft, a company that but for the grace of a few people, myself and my department could have gone to Quebec." Thank God the Mini ster

was able to save it for Ma nitoba. I also notice that he has lowered himself to talk ing to busdrivers in Br andon. If that's how he gets his infor mation, I think that busdrivers are on the same level as an ybody else and actually, you kn ow, it sounded lik e he said, I've even talked to a busdriver. God help the busdrivers for being able to talk to the Honour able Min ister. I don't think that I've got 40 minutes to speak, Mr. Speaker, but oh, I'll probab ly carry on for a little bit longer anyway.

You kn ow this afternoon I was listening to the Attorney-General making his remarks about protracted restraint and to stimulate the economy and I think the Attorney-General is yelling that you 've got to spend money that you don't have. You can always get the money or owe it in the futu re. But he was talk ing about runnin g on the spot, where are you going. I gue ss the Attorney-General is still running on the spot. He doesn't know where he's going; he doesn't know whether he's advancing or going back. But he made some remarks and he took offense to havi ng been associated with jack boots.

Well, I don't kn ow where the offense takes place, but I was associated with seaboots during my na vy time and my neighbour up in the gallery also was involved with the navy and I don't take any offense at all with being associated with seaboots or jack boots or whatever. I think it's ju st a ploy to gain some sympathy and he's not going to get any sympa thy from me. If he's talk ing about the taxi ng -(lnterjection) we'll get to the drunken sailors in a minu te too because that's my backgr ou nd.

It might sound a little bit hu mourous at this time because -(l nterjection) no, I have some remarks to make and I've been thro ugh it both. I've been kno wn to take a drink and I've been known to be a sailor, but we'll get back to that ju st very shortly. I'm still criticizing the Attorney Gener al for the remarks he made about tax ing the candy in Ontario. Who gives a damn what they're doing in Ontario? We're in Mani toba. This is where we should be considering the things that are happ ening here.

We're talking about Man itoba, the Premier of Mani toba who sits there and yells - I was watching him this afternoon and you kn ow, I think that if the people of Ma nitoba coul d only watch him on television the way that he pounds on the desk and, you kn ow, I'm being critical of him, but it's ridiculous. I remember as a kid we had these little boards that you would sit on and you had these little tap dan cers and you bang the board and they would be flippin g all over the place - there's my Honour able Premier of the Province of Ma nitoba.

And I recall at a Hydr o hearing last year where the Honour able Premier of the Province of Man itoba who was the Honour able Leader of the Opp osition at the time, couldn't qu ite accept what was going on and what did he do? He took his group out of the Hydr o heari ng, he walked out, he got mad and he walked out of the Hydro hea ring and he took his ball and went home. I hope now that he's got the responsi bility -(Interject ion)- when I ask you a qu estion then you talk.

But I hope now that he's the Premier of the Province of Mani toba that he'll have a little bit more responsibil ity and will stick around even if it gets a little hot in the kitchen, that he sticks around 2551 1982 because he is the Premier of the Provi nce of Mani toba and the peop le of the Provinc e of Man itoba elected him as the Premier and I respect him for that and I wish him every good success on being the Premier of the Provinc e of Mani toba and I hope he has good suc cess for the next fou r years and then out. I've ju st got to get my notes together -(Interj ection)- well, so far.

You kn ow, and I hear from the government side the term "selective amnesia" and keep pla ying on "selec tive amnesia" like what they're inferring is that we forget what we don't want to know and we remember what we do want to kn ow. Here it is, selective amnesia. I would rather be associated with selective amnesia that selective stupidity. You kn ow I've got to tell a little story, Mr . Speaker, concern ing my neighbo ur down the street.

When you talk abou t selective stu pidity, I think that he's been associated with the New Democratic Party because the front yard of his house, right in the front of his hou se, it was a little low and he decided that he woul d get some fill for the front of the house. So he spoke to his neigh bour who was pu tting in a driveway and he said, "Look, when it comes time and you'r e going to be putti ng in the driveway and you've got some extra earth," he says, ''I'll take a truc kful.

Ju st put in the low spot on the front of the lawn." When he got home about 4 o'clock that afternoon, there was a mou ntai n of earth about the size of his house and he says, "What happened?" And the fellow who was put ting the earth there ju st kept bringin g it and bringing it and nobody told him to stop. This is what happens with the New Democratic Government. No body's told them when to stop. They're not smart enough to know that you can only go so far without hur ting the people of the Prov ince of Mani toba and they keep going on and on and on. For goodness sakes, stop already.

I've got a cou ple of remarks for the Honour able Min ister of Health. You kn ow, the Honour able Mini s ter of Health is qui te a humor ist. I'm qu ite disap point ed in the Honour able Min ister of Health becaus e it's the first time that I've really seen him in a vicious natu re. I've never kno wn him to be as vicious as he was earlier on this evening. He's a kind and a gentle person and he kn ows the benefits of being a socialist because he's been a cou ple of other different parties but he kno ws the ben efits of being a socialist.

He got to be the Min ister of Health and he's a senior member in this Cabi net and I'm sure one of the prime members to take over when the Honour able Premier is no longer there. I can see everybod) vying for positions to take over from the Honou rable Premier and I think the Min ister of Health will be right in line there. I was wondering what the Min ister of Health had to give up, really, to become a member of this party and to become a Mini ster of the Crown.

A little bit of self respect, but not enough, but a little bit of self respect, yes. -(Interje ction)- He was talk ing about the pay roll tax and he said, you kno w, this tax is not going to affect the retired people and the people on welfare, those were his exact words. "The payr oll tax will not affect the peop le on welfare and the retired people." That's a bu nch of baloney; it's got to affect them. You make reference to crocodile tears; that's a bu nch of crock, and that's short for crocodile tears. The Honou rable Mini ster kno ws we supp orted some of the same things. We've suppor ted the Frenc h cul-

Monday, 17 May, 1982 ture and the French langua ge and things of that na tur e and we have supp orted aid to private schools. -(Interj ection)- I said we have sup ported aid to pri vate schools. I say that the Min ister has supp orted aid to private schools. But I asked the Min ister of Ed uca tion a little earlier on, prior to the Estimates, whether the private schools were going to be getting the same type of increase funding as pu blic schools.

The answer came back: "No." As a senior member of this Cabine t I would hope that the Hono urable Min ister of Heal th, who has the same interests as I have concern ing aid to private schools, will speak to the Mini ster of Education so that we can, in effect, get this extra monies and aid to private schools that they so richly deserve. I don't think the Min ister of Health can sit back any longe r.

He has got to come right out in open su ppor t of aid to private schools -(Interject ion)- yes, he does and he's got to tell the Min ister of Educ ation, of which he has some influenc e, that aid to private schools must be kept on the same basis as the extra tax money to public schools.

I also remember him sayi ng some remarks concern ing, a little earlier , when they were ta lking about the two Min ister's of Healt h, about how the previous administration had cut back all the way along the line when it came to hos pital funding and that hospital funding was only increased by 2.8 percent one year, which was ridiculous, and how - I th ink it was either for hospitals or nur sing care homes - and how the previous Cons ervative Government had cut back on the numb er of rashers of bacon, was three rashers of bacon cut back to two rashers of bacon, but now since the New Democratic Government has gotten in, everybody gets three rashers of bacon. -(Inter jection)- Well, that was part of the story that was going around.

Everybody now un der the New Demo cratic Party Government gets three rashers of bacon, includin g this little old Jewish lady in the hospital who doesn't want it. -(l nterjec tion)- Before I leave the Minister of Education, I've received a bu nch of letters here concerning the Bacca laur eate Prog ram for nur sing and I' m ju st going to read one of the letters so it will be on file so that the people who have sent me these letters as their representative will kn ow that I've spoken to the Min ister and I wou ld hope that something will come about in the next short time. It's addressed to Mr .

Kovna ts and they're all signed in case I have to table them. It says: "Cu rrent trends in health services require greater expertise for better patient care. A Bacca lau reate Program in nur sing espec ially designed for registered nur ses with previous diploma prepara tion has been appr oved by the Un iversities Grants Com mission. The Un iversity of Mani toba, the Un iversity of Win nip eg and the Un iversity of Brandon are co-operating developi ng this program. I ask you, as my elected representi ve, to actively supp ort our ap peal to the Mini ster of Education for funding of this program.

I am actively appe aling to the Min ister of Education for funding of this program." Thank you. Now to get back to the bacon issue. I look across the Cha mber and I see Moses with his finger up in the air again because I have made reference to him before. I keep talking about Moses, and I hope that withi n three or four years I can be over on that side and keep 2552 making reference to Solan on this side, but I'm reminded that Moses led the Jews out of bondage across the desert to the promised land.

Because of the dietary laws, the eating of pork was forbidden because it was causing sickne sses and because it wasn't being properly cooked. You can fry bacon, you can bar becue spareribs, you can roast a pork loin, you can eat a ham san dwich and no matter what you call it, it's still a pork product. A payro ll tax by any other name is still a sale s tax; a hidden sales tax, only wo rse. -(Inter jection)- Yes, I got up to speak ju st for those people who like to eat pork. 1.

This payro ll tax will affect and hur t all of the people of the Provinc e of Man itoba by inc reasing costs for goods, products and services. 2. In the case of emplo yee wages, there will be less increases or, in fact, some reductions. 3. Finally go broke. That's the other third alterna tive of a person in busine ss with this payro ll tax. They can close the doors, qui t trying; it's no use. The NDP Govern ment doesn't care. First of all, all products, goods and services coming from outside the provi nce will have a decided advan tage; no 1. 5 percent payro ll tax.

All produ cts, goods and services coming from within Mani toba will have 1. 5 percent added to costs incl uded in the products that have never been taxed before; children's clothing, food, services of the Clergy and benevolent organ iza tion services. The Cler gy, the backbone of the communi ty, aren' t happy with this regressive tax. It will have to be charged or deducted from the Min ister's sal ary, the secretary, the caretaker and all of the other people who work around the chu rches.

Is it the intention of the govern ment to force the chu rches out of busi ness? -(Inter jection)- If y"ou don't like it ju st sit on it and you can speak you r piece when you get your turn. Does this govern ment consider all of the free services performed by the chu rch and not compen sated, the bookwork for marriages and deaths and births, coun selling for the people in trouble who could be a burden on the Mani toba taxpayer. Will the government send in their inspectors to check the records of the chu rches during regular busine ss hou rs?

Would 11 :00 a.m. on the Sab bath be conv enient , would the $1 million it wou ld cost the govern ment to administer increases because of overtime on Satur days and Sun days? Does the Member for St. Johns, I gu ess he's not here so I gue ss this remark is ju st going to go unh eeded, supp ort the tax that put s some chu rches into financial problems also causing dissension? I remember when rent controls were being changed. The labour uni ons represented, advised that wage increases were inevitable because of the higher cost of living.

These same uni ons must now accept decreases and lower increases in their negotiations or suffer the conseq uenc es. As you keep going to the welfare water the government is rap idly drying out the well and there will be no water left. In the un ion case no money left for increases. Let somebody else pay but somehow it boils down to the people of the Prov ince of Mani toba. There are no free rides. Large busine sses and financial successful smaller busi nesses will write out a cheque and deduct from their corporation tax this new payro ll tax, no sweat, no pr oblems, no costs. Small busin esses and those busi-

Monday, 17 May, 1982 nesses in fina ncial trou ble don't pay corporation tax, so they must absorb this 1. 5-percent provincial tax, or negotiate smal ler wage increases for their staff, or lay off some of the staff or pass it onto their customers -or all th ree. There will be more closing in the category of small busi ness un less the govern ment help s farm implement dealers and farm implement man ufactur ers. The farm impl ement dealers are hanging on by a thread and the Provincial Government are coming in with their scissors to cut that thread.

They don't care, stop al ready, give those farm implement dealers a chanc e. I'm told this Bu dget is to help us throu gh the tough economic times directly qu oted by the Mini ster of Financ e. The people of Mani toba don't want the help that caus es higher rates on products that increase inflation and put people out of work and everyone from the NDP sitting the re gloating. See, we didn't raise the sales tax and you sit there and you gloat about it. It's like hitting your self over the head with a hammer, it feels so good when you stop. Do you think, we the people of the Provi nce of Mani toba, are deceived?

You election promises deceived the peo ple; this Bu dget will not. The deficit will be $340 mil lion as qu oted. I am told that the final figur e will be in excess of $400 million or thereabouts. My wife is up there and I'm jus t going to make a remark because I had written this before and not knowing that she was going to be here listening, but my family of Donna and the three kids at $400 per person comes to $2,0 00 and that is what each person's share of the deficit will be for one year. My family - $2,000 -and I think that I am an average family.

The ND P. will be borrowi ng $900 million for all pu rposes if they can still get it; it breaks down to $900 for every Mani toban. My neighbour s Dorothy and Larry up there have four children; it means that on their behalf the Provi nce of Man itoba will be borrowi ng $5,400.00. This is the first Bu dget and look at the huge debt; three or fou r more years to go. Boy, have we a lot of good things to look forward to and, oh yes, one day the heritage of our children to pay back these debts. My leader made some remarks about how the NDP were spending money like drunk en sailors.

I've been through it, I was a sailor, and I' ve been kn own to take a drink and I know how irresponsible a drunk en sailor can be and the song says, "Pu t him in the long boat until he's sober." If we could onl y put the NDP Go v ernment in a long boat and send them out to sea. The song also goes, "Pull out the plug and wet him all over." Put the plug in the government spending and help save some of the money that we don't have. Cease the stop-gap appr oach. When a man is drown ing and he's at the bottom of an eight-foot swimming pool, what good is it to bring him up to the fou r foot level?

He's sti ll going to drown. It seems tha t the intention of the New Dem ocratic Government is to take small busine ss and turn them upside down in my swimming pool or any swimming pool and hold their head at the four foot level and drown them. They need help. I was talking to a minis ter in my area, but I'll tell you the ministers in my area are not suppor ters of the New Democrats. There is one who sup ports the policy of govern ment insur anc e and Autopac -(Int erjection)- I have ju st had a remark and I gu ess it's because I didn't run in Rad is- son, I ran in Ni akwa.

I didn't change constituen cies, I live in the same house but that hous e is now located in Niakwa. I'm al most sorry tha t I didn't run in Radisson because if I had run in Radisson, that member woul dn't be here. I hope that member is enjo ying himself because he won't be here after the next election. I had a que stion for the Min ister of Natu ral Resour ces about skinks but he doesn' t kno w wha t a skink is so I will give him a chanc e to find out so that when I ask him the qu estion on skinks he'll know tomorrow or the next day.

This clergy that I was tal king to, he was tel ling me he feels sorry for some of the people that are going to be taxed to having a real problem. One of the people that he feels sorry for are the people with drinking problems who are being taxed to the degree where it's going to force them into doing something desperate. He says, I hope that these people will be given some help from the Pro vincial Government, rather than ju st see that they are extra taxed because they're the ones that can't afford to pay the extra tax.

The ones who have the extra dollars, who can afford the extra money, sur e tax them but I think you' ve got to do something for the people with the drinking prob lems as requested by the clergy in my area. Do some thing for them, don't ju st slough them off and say, all right, let them fend for the mselves. For tho se people who are still smoking, God bless you , keep smoking we need the tax money, tax them all you want I've been off cigarettes for over a year. But it seems a shame tha t this govern ment must rely on the weak nesses of oth ers by taxing some of those weakne sses to run the province.

I' ve ju st got one more point that I'd like to bring up. Most of the reference was made to the Bud get, that I' ve spoken on today, in some way which is more than really the Honour able Min ister of Health the Mini ster of Natu ral Resou rces, the Min ister of Communi ty Ser vices, all they did was kn ock the previous administra tion and the opp osition party. Some very, very snide and vicious remarks which were un calle d for and un warranted. I' ve ju st got to talk about the Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs concerning some of the problems tha t we're having with the cheese.

Yes, it was Wally 's area but there is 1, 200,000 pounds of cheese that comes from Rossburn and Pilot Mound that is jus t in storage. I would hope the Min ister of Education is going to listen because there was a program through the schools where children were sup plied with milk. Could we not, and also help the indus tries in the Prov ince of Mani toba, su ppl)' some of this cheese to the stu dents in the schools, it's nu tritious, it's a milk pro duct, high protein, why not supply the children of the schools?

We could get rid of some of this 1. 2 million pounds of cheese and do a service to the industry that needs the help. But I give the responsi bility to the Min ister of Education because the Min ister of Muni ci pal Affairs has not accepted the responsibil ity.

As a matter of fact, the Min ister of Mu nicipal Affairs has sloug hed it off to the A & W Restaurant because the other day I went into the A & W Restaurant and I said I wanted a Papa Bur ger to take out; she said, "with cheese" and I said, "yes." So, they're selling mo re cheese than the Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs has ever though t of selling. 2553 I' ve got one more letter tha t I'm ju st going to read and this is to the Min ister of Health. I brought it up

Monday, 17 May, 1982 during his Estimates but I didn't have the letter with me. It 's from 22 Con ifer Crescent in St. Bon iface and it's to Mr . Abe Kovnats, I've mentioned it to the Mini s ter of Health, it says: Dear Mr. Kovnats: I' ve learned with dismay of the prop osal for an abortion clinic in Winnip eg." I tell you I've mentione d this before. "I would like to let you know that I am agains t abortion and agai nst any kin d of clinic which wou ld favour abortion pr ocedures. Hu man life exists from the moment of conception and possesses all the rights to life of a human being.

May I respectfully request you to intervene in this matter so that hu man life will be respected and not destroyed here in Mani toba. Respec tfu lly yours, Sister Evangeli ne" -who is a nun living at this address. I read this into the record because I did mention it to you before. I'm not criticiz ing the Min ister because he gave me the right ans wer. He told me, at tha t time, tha t there was no such clinic but she had heard and we dispelled that fear.

I hope we've dispelle d that fear, I hope the Honour able Mini s ter of Health isn't ju st sayi ng tha t there will not be an abortion clini c and, through the back door throu gh some other funding, make sure that there is one because we don't want one. Now, about the blueberr y farm, there's no blue berry farm tonight, the Minister of Cultur e, yes, he's going to get his blu eberry pie.

I made some very casual remarks concern ing the Blueb erry Festival at Pine y and the Min ister said tha t he enj oys blueb erry pie and I think we had made a commitment to one ano the r, at least me to him, concern ing the blu eberry pie. Wel l, all of a sudden, in the Car illon News, right on the front page; "Abe Kovnats promises the Min ister of Cu ltur e a blu eberry pie," so I can't get out of it, you're going to get your blueberr y pie. An yway I want to thank you for your kind attention, Mr . Sp eaker, am I close to the forty minutes because I said I wasn't going to ... MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The honour able member has appr oximately eight minutes left. MR. KOVNATS: In the next eight minutes you'r e not going to listen to me ju st spouting dribble, you 've heard nothing but important information up to now and I'm ju st going to make one prediction -being a clairvoyant and I' ve got my crystal ball with me -four more years of New Democratic Party Gover nment because you'r e going to go the full length because you kno w you 're going to lose the next election: you 've got to go the full time if you want to get your pensions.

I mentioned it to you once before, good luck to you and I hope all the luck is bad; we're going to win the next election and you'r e going to hear it every time that I get up because I have noth ing better to say about the New Democratic Party. I' ve heard nothing but ill will and really harsh remarks and I'm sorry that I was here to listen to the Honour able Min ister of Health. I al most wasn't going to turn up to night, I was so up set with the Honour able Min ister of Health, my associates - a member in my office, not Mr . Hyde who I got rid of, I got Mr . Mc Kenzie. Mr . Mc Kenzie pl eaded with me.

He said: "Abe, you' ve got tb go into that Hous e and you've got to tell them the way it is. Don't let them up set you ." I said: "Well I am up set, Wally." He said: "Don't let them up set you. Go on in there and tell them the way it is," and I think that I have. Thank you very much, Mr . Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Dauphin. The Honour able Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr . Speaker, I wonder if the House wou ld be ready to call it 10 o'clock? MR. PLOH MAN: I move, seconded by the Honour able Memb er for Rad isson that debate be adjour ned.

MOTION presented and carried and the House adjou rned and will stand adjourne d until 2:00 p.m. tomorrow (Tuesday) 2554

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-56b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 56b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	06dd1096cec9eda8bd7b5fdbdb8aa41f6d424772

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