Manitoba Hansard — 20 April 1979 (Sitting 44A, 31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-44a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542 - 5492 Third Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 28 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL XXVII No. 44A 10:00 A.M. Friday, April 20, 1979 Office of the Queen 's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

., Time: 10:00 a.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, April 20, 1979 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell). PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Mr . Speaker , I beg to present the Petition of the United Health Services Corporation, praying for the passing of

An Act to amend

An Act to incorporate United Health Services . Corporation . MR. SPEAKER: Readings and Receiving Petitions . .. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND T A BUNG OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker , I wish to table the proceedings of the Sixtieth Annual Meeting of the Uniform Law Conference of Canada, and note for the record that ... and I've given notice to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker , that he is no longer the Attorney-General of Manitoba, and the report will be corrected .

COMMITTEE REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson . MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker , the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, and has directed me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move , seconded by the Member for Dauphin , that the report be received . MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . .. Introduction of Bills . ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank yo, Mr. Speaker.

My question is directed to the Minister of Highways , and the Minister responsible for the Emergency Measures Organization. Has his staff had an opportunity to assess the serious flooding situation in South Transcona , and specifically , who is responsible for dealing with flooding arising from the overflow from the huge drainage ditch running alongside Highway 15, in South Transcona, which is responsible for most of the severe flooding in South Transcona? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker , it's my hope to be able to be in that part of the city later on today . I would have to indicate to the honourable member that the first responsibility lies with the municipalities concerned , in this case the municipality of the city of Winnipeg . If the situation is as he describes it , that the major portion of the flooding problem is caused by a provincial 2893

Friday, April 20, 1979 wate rw ay drain, a drain that is under the jurisdiction and the responsibility of the province , then there indeed would be some responsibility for the province to assume in this matter . MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I would hope that the - in supplementary to the minister, I would hope he could clarify that situation by this afternoon, in that the present situation is completely con fusing to local people and I'm wondering if he could clarify the procedures. Right now , they are phoning the provincial flood line and the provincial flood line is telling them to phone the City.

The City is informing those residents , who are really inundated with flood water , that they can be provided with sandbags at a $1.10 a piece. This would appear to those people to be both mercenary and completely inadequate to deal with the flooding situation . Can the minister clarify that that is the existing procedure? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker , I'm advised that there is already some equipment in place and working to rectify the situation , but I'll accept the notice that the honourable member is giving me about that particular situation , which I know is involving him directly and send out for some information , perhaps to have available to the member within a matter of an hour or so. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I don 't wan t to get into a debate as to why the province hasn't been monitoring the situation with south Tran scona better to date , perhaps they 're relying more on the municipality than was justified.

But I'd like the minister to inform me as to whether the province would be prepared to enter jointly into a program with the City to cost-share the public provision of safety and sand-bagging for residents who are being flooded by circumstances over which they have no control. Will you cos t-share that with the City , if the City asks you that this afternoon? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker , most members are aware , perhaps not the Honourable Member for Transcona , that there has been over the years , a formula worked out that involves cost-sharing, a formula that at different levels as costs rise that involve the provincial government and as well , the federal government on a specific set of costs , as they are known to us. At this particular point , we have not been able to make that assessment as to what figure or what potent ial costs we 're looking at.

As soon as that becomes even known in general terms to us, our officials inform Ottawa that we will be requesting aid , and that we have the kind of serious flooding in the province that would qualify us for federal aid , as well as provincial aid . I acknowledge to the Honourable Member for Transcona , that in this particular area , that is the immediate responsibil ity between the municipal authorities and the provincial authorities , there would appear to be some room for improvement in the matter of communications .

Inasmuch as a citizen is caught in between not particularly knowing at all times just who he should direct his inquiries to . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcon a with a fourth quest ion . MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I appreciate the minister 's comments and the difficulty that the citizen finds being in a sense, passed between two levels of government.

Just for further clarificat ion for the confused citizenry , if in fact , the province does cost-share this program with the City and appeals to the federal government for some aid , will this cover both the costs incurred by the municipality in terms of trying to fight that flooding , and the costs and damages incurred by individual citizens in terms of property damage , or in terms of trying to protect their own property . Does it work both for the municipality and for the individual? MR. ENNS : Mr.

Speaker , again the well-practised experience that has been gained regrettably in this particular matter in this province over the years will be followed . There is a cost to the individual homeowner, something like that, in terms of providing immediate and personal protection for his property . The costs that are provided for by the municipality or senior governments are generally allocated in those areas that serve a collective or greater protection that is provided by the municipality or the government.

As to compensation , or eligib ility for compensation , again , that is a matter that has been dealt with , as in the past, by either the Flood Compensation Board, or indeed , it may well be the activity of the new Disaster Board , or group that was set up as a result of the hurricane and wind damage last year in this province ; some such organization would be the organization involved in assessing damage and potential compensation claims. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposigion . 2894 ..

• • - • ... • .. .... .. Friday, April 20, 1979 MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Could the Minister, further to the questions posed by the Member for Transcona, advise as to the present quantity of sandbags that are available for further provision to municipalities , and to others that are in need of sandbags . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker , the Emergency Measures Organizations has some, over one million polyjute sandbags available in stock , and has some time ago, several weeks prior to this, in anticipation of the potential flood situation in the province , informed the bag manufacturers, of which there are several in this city, who have since informed us are in production of additional bags. The question that I asked the directors , both the directors of Water Control and Emergency Measures, just yesterday , on the general question of the availability of sandbags in the province - I am assured that there is an adequate supply . MR.

PAWLEY: Could the Minister confirm that, as of yesterday, the Department of Highways did not have sandbags available for sand-bagging in areas where it required the efforts and the work of the Department of Highways? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , what we're experiencing mostly in Manitoba is a series of flash or surface flooding, that is occurring in many different parts of the province at the same time. It's entirely conceivable that there would be an area where a district office, whether it's Water Control or Highways , does not have stockpiled a supply of bags.

But I would have to take the particular question as further notice and make enquiries , but I am assured that there is a sufficient supply of sandbags in the province . MR. PAWLEY: Can the Minister of Highways assure us that there are sufficient moneys within his budget to ensure a proper supply of sand bags for the Department of Highways? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker , I would have to ascertain first of all whether or not the responsibility for the supply of sandbags , maintaining a stock of same , whether in my relatively newly acquired responsibilities of the Emergency Measures Organization whether or not that doesn't lie with the Emergency Measures Organization , but I think there is no problem as I've just heard some very good advice from this side of the House. MR.

PAWLEY: A question further to the Minister of Highways or possibly to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, whether or not he can explain the rationale that within the City of Winnipeg , itself , apparently there is a variation insofar as the charges that are being levied for sandbags from $1 .10 up, and in some instances there are no charges whatsoever for sandbags . I would like to receive the rationale for this variation insofar as charges are concerned to the residents in the City of Winnipeg and also if I might add to residents in rural municipalities outside the City of Winnipeg. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , if there is a variation in the price of sandbags, that is the decision of the municipalities affected and if residents of those municipalities have any concerns they should take that matter up with the elected representatives of their municipality. MR.

PAWLEY: A further supplementary then to the Minister of Municipal Affairs , does he have any plans to meet with municipalities affected by the flooding in order to insure that the charges that are being levied , I insofar as sandned , bags are cancer are not such as to prevent residents from insuring that there is protection of their property because of financial problems in providing the moneys required .

And secondly , is he at all concerned to the extent that he would meet with municipalities in order to ascertain whether some rationale or general guideline of policy might be developed in respect to charges for sandbags to residents in flooded areas? MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Speaker , I would certainly would be prepared to meet with municipalities .

At a meeting of our sub-committee of Cabinet dealing with this issue yesterday it was clearly indicated that the Emergency Measures Organization are dealing with individual municipalit ies, have received some complaints about some municipalities and are in the process of discussing those complaints with the individual municipalities . MR. PAWLEY: To the Minister for Transportation , can he advise us as to why such meetings only 2895

Friday, April 20, 1979 commenced to take place as of yesterday, when surely the situation had been foreseen for the past two weeks, and also if he can provide us with a report as to that meeting that has taken place between EMO and the municipal organizations? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Transportation. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , the Emergency Measures Organization has been meeting with municipal itie s since February , two months before the first sign of any flood.

It's part of their ongoing work , indeed perhaps the most important work that Emergency Measures does is attempting to work with the municipalities throughout the year in outlining and in gaining their co-operation in accepting their responsib ility as being, in the first instance, the body responsible for the safeguarding of their electors and their citizens. We operate somewhat differently than our American cousins do , Mr. Speake r, in the sense that in America and the American state the governor states a general area of disaster or a state of emergency and certain things follow from that statement .

It's fair game, we can debate the question as to how we ought to do it, but over the years - and as was practised by the members opposite when they were government - our system works on the tier level. We begin with the local government responsible, namely the municipalities . If the situation develops into a more ser ious thing , we move to the other forms of government and then finally, if the figure, as our cost-sharing figures with Ottawa outline, that is where the senior government of the country comes to the aid of regional problems of disasters of this nature.

But let me assure the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that meetings were held well in advance of the situation ; the fact of the matter is that there is a degree of local autonomy of course exercised , and what the Min ister of Municipal Affairs indicated is that - and it is causing us some concern - there is some variance from time to time as to practises and responsibilities that municipalities are prepared to accept. We would like to see that kind of a service being treated in a more uniform way and we're working towards that end .

The other question of whether or not the - I've forgotten the other question by now, Mr. Speaker. MR. PAWLEY : A further supplementary. If in fact there have been meetings that have been taking place through EMO , regular reporting , could the Minister advise why he would be unaware of the situation in south Transcona? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The Honourable Minister of Transportation . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, the kind of meeting that was referred to by the Minister of Municipal Affairs is the kind of meeting that I expect that we will have on very short notice, perhaps every day for the next four or five days . It's a matter that we wish to keep ourselves fully abreast of, and totally aware of what 's happening from hour to hour , and I assure the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that these conditions change from hour to hour .

This morning at 5:00 it looked very much like Trans Canada Highway west was indeed going to be blocked because of water flowing over the major highway in our province, and by 8:00, you know , the situation had reversed itself and the corridor is safe for travel. So these situations are changing as all Manitobans know, or most Manitobans know, from hour to hour , particularly with the nature of this kind of flooding , which is surface and flash flooding .

We're not experiencing - and our forecast , and I believe the weather that is being forecast for this weekend would lead us to believe that we will not be experiencing serious major flooding on our main rivers, that is the Red and the Assiniboine . What we are experiencing is flash flooding because of the unusually quick melt of a great deal of snow , and that's causing a lot of unusually , admittedly difficult situations for individual persons involv ed , for farmers or residents.

But I think the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is fair enough , or else I will have to devise a way of blaming the former government for this year's flood, but I believe he is fair enough - and given a chance, I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, I could find that way. But I'm sure he's fair enough, and as a long-time Manitoban understands the difficulties that our citizens have at this time of the year with water . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr .

Speaker , inasmuch as the quest ions of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition relate to municipalities , and meetings with municipalities by EMO, I want to place on the record the fact that since the flooding of 1974, the Emergenc y Measures Organization has carried on annual seminars with municipalities duri ng the winter months and I know that they were held in February of 1978, and again in February of this year in Brandon with most municipalities in attendance, and 2896

Friday, April 20, 1979 they were at that time advised that there was a very realistic prospec t of flooding , and since that time , Emergency Measures Organization have been working with municipalities , advising them of the problems and taking all the necessary steps to encourgae them and have them prepare for the flooding that 's now taking place . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, Mr. Speaker . My question is directed to the Minister of Highways .

The situation in Transcona is in part a flash flood , but it has occurred every spring time , so it's something that can in fact be predicted . In the past , there was publ ic diking in South Transcona . Could the Minister , when he examines the situations later this morning or this afternoon , determine why there has been no public diking in the South Transcona region this year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker , I have already indicated to the honourable member that I'm prepared to make myself more knowledgeable about the specific situation that the member refers to . MR. PARASIUK: A supplementary . I appreciated the Minister 's comments about the situation varying , but if in fact the basement has been flooded and the basement is full of water , the water may recede but that house is still left there with a situation that doesn 't change very quickly.

And in order for homeowners to protect themselves they have to today probably , make investment decis ions in the order of $500 to $1 ,000 with respect to sandbags and pumps . Can the Minister inform us as to how he will be notifying those cit izens as to what type of assistance the province • and the city may want to provide this afternoon? Can you inform us what mechanism for communication you will make to those people because right now no one is communicating with them? .. .. .... • .. • MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , again , the first persons to call would be his municipal government and his local member . MR.

PARASIUK: Well , Mr. Speaker , a supplementary . They have in fact done that. They have received no aid whatsoever ; there is confusion as to whether in fact the flooding has been caused by a provincial waterway or by - (Interjection) - Well , Mr. Speaker , if in fact the members on the other side of the House feel that this is a matter to sort of make fun about , I certainly don 't, and I know that the Minister of Highways has certainly not been making fun of this particular matter .

I would like to ask him if he would set up or indicate to us, what communication mechanism he will set up with the local citizenry in that I as the constituency representative , am being flooded with calls from people saying: " What can I do? Who can I get information from? " I am asking him , the Minister responsibile , what communication mechanism exists for emergency measures in this respect? MR. ENNS: Mr .

Speaker , I assure the honourable member that within the hour , I will have Emergency Measures Organization contact residents in that area or some specific callers from that area , to explain the procedure . I would also assure that the Member for Transcona has that informat ion in his hands before noon . MR. PARASIUK: Thank you for reacting to my questions . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . HON. DONALD W. CRAIK(Riel): Mr.

Speaker , I wonder if it would be in order for me to add to th is debate that I trust that the Minister of Highways when he is examining south Transcona this afte rnoon will not overlook the flooding Seine River in St. Vital as well. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speake r, I'd like to direct a quest ion to the Minister of Urban Affairs. In view of the commencement of con str uction of the Winnipeg Arena, is the province now prepared to c ommit funding to the pro ject? 2897

Friday, April 20, 1979 MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Urb an Affairs. MR. MERCIER: Mr . Speaker , as the Member for Elmwood should or does know , the present construction program at the Winn ipeg Arena was embarked upon by Winnipeg Enterprises Corpo ration , guaranteed by the city of Winnipeg without any commitment for funding from either the federal or the provincial government level.

To date , as I previously advised him, the city is awaiting some confirmat ion from the Minister of Fitness and Sport at the Federal level, and as soon as they have received that commitment , they will be in touch with us to review further expansion and renovation of the Winnipeg Arena, and to date we have not been contacted by the city of Winnipeg , so I can only assume that they have not yet received that Federal governme nt commitment. MR. DOERN: Mr . Speaker , I might just say in passing that the understanding is that Mr. Norrie , the Deputy Mayor , has received tha t commitment.

That has already been indicat ed on radio. So I would say that in view of the Federal government's commitment through a letter apparently sent by the Honourable John Reid to the city of Winnipeg, will the Ministe r then match the $5 million committed by the Federal government , a commitment which would bind any succeeding administration? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , I have not seen any letter from Mr. Reid to date. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I would also ask the Minister how he regards the city 's guarantee of the $3.5 million which would be spent by the Winnipeg Enterprises Corporation .

Would he consider that gua rantee as equivalent to a cash contribution in the event of a three-way $15 million expansion? MR. MERCIER : Mr. Speaker, it's not how I see it. It's how the Federal government sees it. MR. DOERN: I would ask the Minister that , regardless of how the Federal government sees it, is the province prepared to make a contribut ion to arena expansion? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , I've quite clearly outlined the position of the provincial government.

We are waiting advice from the city of Winnipeg authorities that they have received confirmation of the Federal government financing, and as soon as they do , we will meet with them and with the Winnipeg Enterprises Corporation to review the further proposals for expansion . :: MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George . MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Mr. Speaker , I'd like to direct this question to the Min ister of Finance .

Could the Minister of Finance indicate whether the province is prepared to activate its flood assistance policy in terms of compensation policy in the event that more wide-spread flooding will occur this spring , and could he indicate whet her the same formula that was used by the previous administration will be the basis for the policy? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . MR. CRAIK: Mr . Speaker , I can 't answer the member 's quest ion at this point in time .

As the Minister of Municipal Affairs indicated a Cabinet sub-committee met yesterday with regard to the entire question , and any action that may be taken by the government would start with that committee . MR. URUSKI: Mr . Speaker , could the Minister take as notice whether or not the costs that may be expended by residents in the purchase of sandbags and flood-f ighting equipment would be considered - in the event that a policy is accepted - would be cons idered as costs that would be eligible for compensation if the program goes ahead? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker , I will certainly take under advisement the necessity to advise the public generally of such a policy at the earliest possible date , and certainly we will advise the House as soon as there is a policy that ought to be brought to the public attention in that regard . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. SIDNE Y GREEN: Mr . Speaker , I'd like to direct a quest ion to the Minister of Finance. Due 2898

Friday, April 20, 1979 to the fact that the Tritschler Inquiry appears to be embarking on a program to obtain evidence in the province of Ontario, which is a perfectly legitimate enterprise , would the Minister confirm .. that this inquiry, one of the main subjects of which is to determine why an estimated capital program went up from $50 million to approximately $120 million over a period of three and a half to four years , has now seen its own cost go up from an estimated $150 ,000 to over $1 million in one year . • ... • MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I think that we'd be in the position of comparing apples and oranges, and I think the member recognizes that that type of comparison would fall into that category. The investigations that are being examined by the Inquiry Commission and I presume the one in question is one that is a tendered type of undertaking that was a part of the development, and was open to substantial question, whether or not the actual costs of the Tritschler Inquiry Commission are in that category, I would say no, they're not .

The costs estimated originally for the inquiry are an estimate only, and were presented as estimates, and the actual costs that come in, Mr. Speaker , will in my view be worth every cent of the investment when you consider that you 're dealing with investigation into projects that deal in the order of billions of dollars and you're talking about this type of an examination I think it's a pretty small investment. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, aside from the applicability or not of the comparison , would the Minister agree that the first estimate of cost of the Tritschler Inquiry was approximately $150,000, that the present estimate is $1 million from the government , Mr. Speaker, and an additional $1 million from the Manitoba Hydro itself , for a total of $2 million? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker , I've not been advised of the cost to the utility or the other participants that may be involved in the investigation .

I don't recall the member opposite indicating to the House the costs that were borne by the people and the organizations that appeared before the CFI Inquiry Commission at the time that it held its hearings, but I do recall the figures that were used in general terms on the cost of that inquiry, which were several times the size of the numbers that the Member is referring to now . MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, does the Minister to whom Manitoba Hydro reports , not consider costs to the Hydro utility as being public costs to the people of the Province of Manitoba, which have to be paid for by the public? MR.

CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker, certainly. But , Mr. Speaker , the category that Manitoba Hydro falls into in this particular case is no different than any other party that may have been appearing before the Commission of Inquiry, and I am sure that there are others that have borne costs as well in making their appearance before the Inquiry Commission, and that would include a number of the consulting firms that were involved in the contracts, etc . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster with a fourth question . MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr .

Speaker , we count it as a first question because it's a different question directed to the Honourable Government House Leader. Can the Government House Leader advise us whether this Legislature can expect to receive a motion made by one of the members of the Treasury Branches , which would give effect to the unanimous resolution of this House, that there be a committee established to examine into the question as to whether or not sufficient information is available to the public and that such information is available in an expeditious way?

Some time earlier in the Session , a motion was passed unanimously , asking the government to consider the advisability of doing this ; can the Min ister advise us now whether we can expect a motion to that effect before the end of this Legislat ive Session? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): No, I can 't give my honourable friend that assurance, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines, Natural Resources and the Environment. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker , I would request leave of the House to 2899

Friday, April 20, 1979 make a statement concerning the flooding , the run-off situation ; information which has just been made available to me. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. SAUL CHERNIACK : There may be other questions yet to be asked. I think that we could give permission . I, for one, want to ask a question . If you wish to set aside the Question Period to give the Minister the opportunity to speak, as long as we come back to the Question Period , I, for one , would have no objection . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker , I did say that I would be willing and I imagine other members would be, but if the Minister wants to wait till after the end of the Question Period , I would ask a ques tion of the Minister of Finance , who , on April 6th , I asked about the answers to questions which he undertook to present to us when we concluded the Estimates of his department on March 16th , and he stated on April 6th and I quote : " The list is almost complete. I'll have it for him in a matter of a day or two ". I am not aware that we have had that , Mr. Speaker, and today is, well , two weeks since that time .

I wonder if the Minister could now respond to that. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Finance . MR. CRAIK: Well , Mr. Speaker , I'll check on that and I'll undertake to provide all the answers tha t are available and hopefully it will be all of them by Monday . MR. CHERNIACK : Mr. Speaker, I suppose this would also be for the Minister of Finance . Last Session , by Order for Return No. 29, the government undertook to provide a Return on the item of " cost of separation payments in 1977-78 fiscal year re termination of employment " .

Since that fiscal year was more than a year ago, can the Minister advise why it's taking so long to supply that answer? MR. CRAIK : Mr. Speaker, perhaps the member could indicate if there are any other numbers in addition to " 29" that he's not received , because he did raise it on one other occasion , and perhaps I can indicate that I'll certainly check on that. However , Mr.

Speaker , as the member knows , and I've given the classic case of having filed an Order for Return that took two years to get back from the former government and we shall in every attempt make sure that we certainly don 't abuse the privileges of the House to that extent and we'll get it back as soon as possible . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , the member has asked for numbers .

I should tell him , since he apparantly doesn 't know , that every two weeks the Orders of the Day set out a list of unanswered Address for Papers and well, there aren 't any of those left , but Orders for Return , and the Clerk 's office has the list every day , every hour of the day , that the Minis ter wants to inquire . I would like to ask , I suppose the House Leader , if not , the Acting First Minister , how long it should take to respond to Order for Return No. 55, asking for bids on the Lord Selkirk , which is long overdue as far as information is concerned? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourab le Government House Leader. MR. JORGENSON : Mr. Speaker , if the question was indeed directed towards me, I will undertake to ensure that that answer is provided as soon as possible. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St. Johns with a fourth question . MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, Mr . Speaker .

Inasmuch as the government undertook to supply the response to an Order for Return No. 56, giving information as to trips by Ministers , Deputy Ministers , and Ass ista nt Deputy Ministers on government business between October 24th, 1977 to May 17th, 1978, and inasmuc h as that period is more than a year ago , may I ask , I suppose, the House Leader , why it should take more than a year to give the information that was then available? MR. SPEAKER: Order please .

May I suggest to the honourable member that if he provides the numbers to the Minister of Finance as he requested , they will probably be looked after . 2900

., Friday, April 20, 1979 The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr . Speaker, you may be answering on behalf of Treasury Bench , but I have a right to ask the Treasury Bench direct and have done so. The fact is that these Orde rs for Return were accepted a year ago , Mr . Speaker, and the Minister of Finance can speak about history all he likes. I have a right to ask the question and I did ask it. MR. SPEAKER: Order please , order please.

May I suggest again to the honourable member that if he had complied with the request by the Minister of Finance , we would not have this repitition that is occurring at this particular time . The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: On a point of order , Mr. Speaker . I did not repeat the question on trips by Ministers up to May 17th , 1978. I asked it only once , and the Minister of Finance and the government have had every opportunity to know and ought to have known, what outstanding Orders for Return there still are , so that I am not being repititious .

I haven 't asked this question and I haven 't asked this specific question all year. I'm asking that of the House Leader. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . MR. JORGENSON: Mr . Speaker , there seems to be some difficulty in getting answers to that particular question because if my memory serves me correctly , when we asked it, it took more than a year to get the answer as well. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Before we proceed any further, I should like to draw the honourable members ' attention to the gallery , where we have 75 students from Grade 11 from Beausejour High School , under the direction of Mr. Koss. This schoo l is located in the Constituency of the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. We also have 75 students of Grad e 9 standing from Crescentview School in Portage Ia Prairie , under the direction of Miss Demchuk . This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie. On behalf of all the honourab le members , we welcome you here this morning.

The time for Question Period having exp ired , I believe there was a request by the Minister of Mines for permiss ion for a specia l statemen t at this time . (Agreed ) The Honourab le Minister of Mines . MR. RANSOM: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. I have some copies for distribution. This is an update of the information supplied yesterday , Mr . Speaker , that Deadhorse Creek at Morden crested on April 19, with a discharge only slightly below the record level of 1971. Flooding has also been experienced in the Town of St. Pierre , due to overflows from Joubert Creek.

The Boyne River at Carman is e xpected to crest this weekend at a stage comparable to that of 1970. Peak flows on the Plum River at St . Jean and the Seine River just above its inlet into the Red River Floodway are expected on the weekend with the Morris and La Salle Rivers expected to crest one or two days later with peaks on all these rivers being close to those experienced in 197 4. Although the Roseau River is rising rapidly at Dominion City , the crest is not expected to occur until the beginning of May. On the Pemb ina River, runoff is just beginnin g in t he upper portion of the Basin.

However, rapid increases in stage will occur in the next few days with overflows from the Pemb ina River in the Gret na area being similar to those in 1970. Anticipated peak stag es along the main stem of the Red River have been re-evaluated as a result of recent events in Manitoba as well as in the United States portion of the Basin . Some upward revision of the expected peak levels have been made . In the Ass inibo ine Basin, runoff is just getting under way , except in the area downstream of Portag e Ia Prairie , where runoff is well advanced .

Omands Creek crested on April 19 and Sturgeon Creek is expected to crest on the weekend at a flow somewhat below that which occurred in 1974. The for ecasts issued for the Assinibo ine River on Apri l 17 are still valid . In the Souris Basin, runoff in the United States portion of the Basin and the western portion of the Basin in Saskatchewan is well advanced and runoff is under way in the Manitoba portion . Rapid rises in the stage of tributaries and the main stem may be expected in the next few days . The forecast which was issued for the Souris River on April 17 is still valid .

As in the case of the Assiniboine River , the area of Dauphin, Whitemud River and Interlake areas, the temperatures have been cooler , the snowmelt has been more gradual. Runoff in these areas is not expected to be fully under way until next week and flood forecasts for these areas, which 2901

Friday, April 20, 1979 were issued on April 17 have not chang ed. Thank y ou, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker , I wish to express our group 's satisfaction at the frequent information that the minister is providing the House with . I would also say, Mr. Speaker , that I think that there should be no tendency on the part of the government to hope that they can answer all inquiries by referring to past practice .

Because although this may be an answer which momentarily can satisfy, I don 't wish to be partisan about it, but to satisfy the fact that they are able to answer the opposition , I can tell the honourable minister that we did not rely only on past practices , we tried to learn from what had occurred in the past and to add to the measures that could be taken . I sincerely think that the minister will deal with these matters , not merely on the basis of precedent but as dictates arise . I would, Mr. Speaker , say that it would be an opportune time for him to deal with it to the benefit of all Manitobans .

For instance, the question of the Boyne River at Carman , that there was some dissatisfaction with the residents in that area with the previous administration and there were some people who were irresponsible enough to say that the engineers and the Water Resources Department were basing their reports for the benefit of the New Democratic Party government. Some of those people may even be in this House at this minute, Mr. Speaker. So, you have an opportune time to see whether these engineers prepared reports for the benefit of the New Democratic Party government , and if they did , Mr.

Speaker , I would urge that they be fired immediately . And if they didn 't, Mr. Speaker , then I would urge the minister to tell these irresponsible people , that the water followed the same rules under the New Democracy as it did under the Conservative administration. The same thing, Mr. Speaker , relates to the flooding at Dominion City and I would urge the minister to be advising those people in the area , that the situation which arises from the waters flowing , does not arise from the particular nature of the government that is in power . The measures , Mr .

Speaker , that will be taken , I hope will be taken on the basis of past experience , the accumulated knowledge in deal ing with these matters that has been obtained under all governments , who have had to deal with them and that there will be a further accumulation of techniques under this government. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Government House Leader . MR. JORGENSON: Mr . Speaker, I move , seconded by the Minister of Highways that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty .

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Crescentwood in the Chair for the Department of Education and the Honourable Member for Emerson in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Albert Driedger (Emerson): Committee come to to order . I'd like to refer members to Page 7, Resolution No. 6, Minister 's Salary ; 1.(a)-pass - the Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR.

CHERNIACK: I've listened to part of the discussion relating to the practice by the Minister of the sale of land by the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation , and I am concerned at this stage , not so much with what happened , but the principle and the policy relating to the sale of government property . I am under the impression that when the land was put up for sale , there was a reserve bid , and the reserve bid was the cost of acquisition and of financing the acquisition. I'd like to know if that's correct. 2c MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNE Y: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR.

CHERNIACK : Well , Mr. Chairman, what concerns me is that the government was concerned 2902

Friday, April 20, 1979 only, apparently, in recouping its investment, and not in getting the market value guaranteed to it through a reserve bid system. Is that correct? MR. DOWNEY: You can go ahead. I'll answer it when you 're finished ; I'll bank your question. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, the Minister suggests that he'll bank my questions , but the fact is that I am trying to get my information so that I will know . . . MR. DOWNEY: Read Hansard . MR.

CHERNIACK: .. . how I can assess the policy of the department; and therefore, if I don 't know the answer to my question , I can't very well ask the next question. I'm sure the Minister wants to make it possible for us to evaluate the program and practice . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , if the member wanted to refer to Hansard , that has all been asked and answered many many times , and it's already on the record. If he wants to repeat the question, I'll consider answering it now. MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you , Mr. Chairman, and I thank the Minister for reconsidering whether he'd answer it or not.

It's not a question so much of Hansard, it's a question of clarification as to the impact of the program , because the Minister has already said that his reserve bid is the cost, rather than the market. And what I'm asking him now to confirm is that it was policy that the government recoup the investment , and that it was not concerned with getting the return on the market value , or close to it, so as to be guaranteed that return by a reserve bid. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the member is asking me the question if in fact there was a reserve bid and I said yes.

The cost of the corporation plus the carrying charges which is in fact the same policy that was on the Land Lease Program . That in fact that was the way in which that land is being sold which was leased without any opportunity for more than one individual to have an opportunity to bid on it. We are establishing a market price , Mr. Chairman , by in fact opening the land for sale to open public tender and in fact has sold in excess of some 43 percent over the actual cost of the corporation plus the carrying charges. So in fact , it has been bringing the market price through the open tender system. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I do not recall in detail the terms of the Land Lease Program but in the general way I believe it was designed to assist farmers who wish to rent land at reasonable prices to do so, subsidized even . Because as I recall it, the rental was 5 percent of the cost and there was an additional incentive to that farmer to be able to acquire ownership of that land by paying the cost to government.

The cost to government was calculated for purposes of sale to the tenant on the basis of the market value as at the time it was purchased . -(Interjection)- Yes, so that the market value at the time of purchase was the price under the lease contract that was entered into with the lessee and the lessee then knew that if he developed that farm , if it became productive enough for him to be able to acquire sufficient moneys with which to buy it, the price was part of his contract.

And therefore it is absolutely no comp ariso n or no analogy with the situation of a person coming in from outside of Manitoba, and bidding for that at anything over the cost . There is no comparison in the false analogy between the Land Lease Contract . . . MR. DOWNEY: You would like to make it a false analogy . MR. CHERNIACK: . . . a false analogy between the Land Lease Contract and an outsider coming in to buy land. Now the Minister has interjected, " I'd like to make it a false analogy ", I would invite him to make it a correct analogy and I would certainly do my best to understand his argu ment. MR.

DOWNEY: Again we've gone over this many times and I would just like to say that the only reason that it could not be used as an analogy is in fact that the land that was sold to the farmer that he has referred to under the Land Lease Program was a handpicked farmer by the last government . The actual cost to the corporation , the carrying charges , using that as a base on which they would sell that to their particular choice of a farmer is the reason why it is a false comparison. In fact , as far as I am concerned , the handling of public money is far more questionable than the 2903

Friday, April 20, 1979 way in which we have offered the property that is surplus to the Corporation to all Manitobans, and if he wants to try to say that it is a false analogy, that is the only way in which I would consider it as a false analogy that in fact under the Land Lease Program the reserve bid was the same cost to the Corporation plus all carrying charges , but the fact was that all Manitobans and all farmers didn 't have a chance to bid on that property, the few, or the one indiv idual that the last government decided should have that lease , automatically had the right to buy that.

Not taking into considerati on the market value such as he's suggesting is done, we are taking into consideration the market value on the open tender system and are not selling it for less than that. We are , Mr. Chairman, giving all Manitobans an opportunity to bid on it but they didn't, Mr. Chairman, that's where the false analogy comes in. If it be the ir fr iends, or if it be individuals who they think that they should give the right to farm that land at a five percent interest , plus the automatic right to buy it at that cost to the Corporation plus carrying charges, that , Mr. Chairman , is the problem .

And the only deviation that has been from that as far as we're concerned is that if it 's - and it's not land that had leases on it with ongoing farmers that were offering it for sale - it 's land that is surplus to the Corporation . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , now that we agree that the Minister 's analogy was a false analogy , we can . .. -(Interjection) - Mr . Chairman , the Minister has been a member of this Committee for some period of time and has been part of this debate for quite a period of time , I can understand his wish to interject , but I think , Mr.

Chairman, you should stop him so that we can have that . -(Inte rject ion) - Mr. Chairman, I expect you to decide , not the Minister to decide whether or not he has the right to interject . The Member for Minnedosa is always the quickest to interject and the least to make speeches , so I try my best to ignore him . - (Interjection )- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . Order please . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , could you call the Member for Minnedosa to orde r? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair just did . The Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: Good , I'm glad of that , Mr. Chairman . Mr .

Chairman , the Minister makes illusions to friends and is trying to paint the Land Lease Program in a bad light , and he can do that and I'm sure he has done it - he's probably done it in places and before audiences where he could not get an answe r from the government 's side and that's fair game , that 's politics - and now he's interrupting again , Mr. Chairman , -(Interjection)- and the Membe r for Minnedosa is interrup ti ng aga in, Mr. Cha irman , and I guess I have to suffer that as long as you 're prepared to let them do it, Mr. Chairman , but I will attempt to continue in spite of that .

The Land Lease Program , as I recall it, was designed to assist people - both people who wanted to sell their lands and people who wanted to buy land or to lease land - and that program was designed on the basis of need and applications were made and decisi ons were made . by the Agricultural Corporation -(Interjection)- and the Minister is still interject ing, but I really started this discussion on a matter of policy . Now , he's become defensive and I don 't blame him. I unde rstand why he's becoming defensive but I will try to confine my remarks to the principle involved .

As 1 understand it, the Minister stated that the reserve bid was to protect the inves tment , that the market value determination by him was accomplished by putting the proper ty up for public tender.

The concern I have is that the reserve bid was not related to t he marke t value and that means to me - and the reason I raise this now was not the histor y, I said tha t earlier , but the policy - and that is that the next time around when the Agr icultu ral Corporation or this Ministe r or maybe this government - that concerns me even more - has what it deems to be surplus land , the danger is that it will follow the same policy of attempting to recoup its investment only and not relate it to market value .

And once the public gets to know that , that is a real danger to the tender ing system and that's what 1 want to get clarifica tion on . Does the Minister . .. he's been on the defensive all along on the basis of what happened . I want to talk about what 's going to happen. Is he so insistent on justifying the previous decisions , as to state that it 's going to be the future policy? That 's what I'm concerned with . Mr.

Chairman , what concerns me even more now , is that the Minister refrained from answering what 1 think is a very important matter and that is, what is the policy of the department and of the government in relation to putting up for public tender , propert ies owned by the people of 2904

.. Friday, April 20, 1979 and managed by the government? Do they have a policy on that? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , the member is well aware of the fact that there is a Board of Directors that run the Manitoba Agricultural Corporation, which recommend to government , and the recommendations that will be coming forth on more land . As I said earlier in committee , we refused some of the sales where they did not reach the cost to the Corporation . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman , I'm really concerned about this and I want to point out that the Minister responsible for the MHRC answered some questions in the House the other day in relating to the sale by public tender of property acquired by the government with moneys of the people of Manitoba .

We know that the Minister responsible for Economic . . . well , I forget the title , that was formerly the title , I suppose it was Industry and Commerce . . . was involved in the sale of, let's say, the Lord Selkirk , the Department of Highways is responsible for the sale of land and I think there ought to be a policy - and I believe there always was a policy - that there would be a reserve bid related to market value. Now this Minister now said that we have a Board of Directors , and we wait for them to make recommendations.

I would like to think that the government has a policy and that all agencies of government follow that policy and that government doesn't wait to see what each agency may , in its discretion , deem necessary or advisable . And therefore, I am left with the statement by the Minister that the Board of Directors will make recommendations time-to-time . Does that then mean that they can recommend changes in policy without government being involved in advising them what government believes should be the policy? MR. DOWNEY: Well , I'm sure there 's certain situations that develop, Mr.

Chairman, and I would just like to for the member , in case he is unaware of the fact that when he was a member of government , that there were land purchases made with public taxpayers ' money that had no relationship apparently to the actual market price of which he's referring to . When we look at one particular parcel of land that has now got a cost to the Corporation of some $106 ,000 and the highest - the highest - offer received , Mr. Chairman , was $50 ,000 .00. What friend was he trying to help when he gave him that kind of money for that particular land?

What did he look at as far as market value is concerned? Now , he's coming back and trying to criticize and ridicule the way we are handling the affairs of the province on a responsible manner , he's totally full of hot air. We 've handled all this, we've debated it, it 's all in Hansard , and I think we've hashed this all over . If he wants to continue to sit and debate it, I think it's a meaningless task as far as the Committee is concerned. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I don 't want to make an issue of this, but the Minister said that he wants to know what friend I was trying to help .

He knows very well I had nothing whatsoever to do with this program . I may have many friends , and I like to help all friends and all enemies , but the Minister had no rig ht whatsoeve r to make the statement he did and I don 't mind his having made it because it reflects on him rather than on me . So I'll let that pass . -(lnterection)- The point that I'm trying to make in spite of the fact that the Minister thinks I'm full of hot air or is trying to make me think that and react to that and I won 't, is that I'm trying to talk about present policy .

The Ministe r is so defensive about what he did and what his government did , that he keeps refer ring to what he did. I'm only trying to develop what the present and future policy of the government will be in relation to selling of land paid for by people 's tax moneys , and he keeps refe rring back to h istory . I don 't know whethe r he was a Conservative when the previous Conservative government got involved in selling out Man itoba's natural resources in the north to the Monaco Company, but I don 't want to refer tha t and blame it for his helping his friends wherever they were.

I don 't know if he has any friends . But I am still insistent on attempting to find out government policy today . The fact that it comes to that question about policy today because of what happened in the last year under the sale by the Agr icultural Corporation is not what I am dealing with . No matter how much he wants to bring me back to his own feeling of guilt, I am still trying to deal with what is today 's policy .

In the future , tomorrow , next year , is this government through this Minister prepared to sell land on public tender with the reserve bid being related to cost and not related to market value? Are they going to continue that policy? MR. DOWNEY: If there 's any change in policy , Mr. Chairman , the public of Manitoba will know . 2905

Friday, April 20, 1979 MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , from what the Minister said today, I take out only two features of what has been said today : 1. The policy was to set a reserved bid on costs. 2. If there 's a change in policy the public of Manitoba will know . MR. DOWNEY: Well , Mr.

Chairman, if there was a change in policy to set the reserve price any other way than to have the cost to the Corporation plus the carrying charges , with the people of Manitoba having the right to bid on it, then we would certainly have to review all the Land Lease policies that have the option to buy at the cost to the Corporation plus the carrying charges . So, I would have to say that if there were a change , we would have to consider changing that total policy on Land Lease and the policy as far as the sale of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation land. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr.

Chairman , the Minister has elaborated on what might be the features or the factors that they 'd take into consideration in change of policy . But I want to confirm my clear understanding that the present policy is that the reserve bid on the sale of land will be the cost plus carrying charges, and that that is the policy today . Now , I believe that that is correct from what the Minister said? MR. DOWNEY : Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHERNIACK: Well , that , Mr. Chairman , is what really concerns me, because as I say MHRC is selling land - is being advertised for sale - Department of Highways sells surplus land.

The government has on other occasions announced that it was going to sell land that had been acquired in the past and either this policy enunciated by the Minister will carry throughout government where there 's terrible dangers involved or this department , for some reason , is going to continue on a different basis . And let me tell you , Mr. Chairman , here we have this government embarking on a program in the last 17 or 18 months , of selling out property - land , mineral rights - owned by the people of Manitoba.

They have sold some at a loss on the base of investment , and gleefully - well , I shouldn 't say gleefully - they announce publicly , " We lost so many dollars because whatever it was cost us so much and we sold it on public tender for much less, and there is a loss ," and they at tribute it to the previous government - (Interjection) - well , Mr. Chairman , I got another interject ion from the Member for Minnedosa , " Get your facts straight ," is what he is saying , and he's a man who has spent all his life dealing with dollars so I guess I have to make sure tha t I have my facts straight.

I now invite him to give me the facts so that I can ge t t hem straight. Well , he may not have heard my invitation , Mr. Chairman , so I'll repeat my impression . I was saying that the government decided to sell certain proper ties owned by t he government , or by its agencies, and in some cases sold them for less than the cost and the government announced the fact that it had taken a loss . At that stage the Member for Minnedosa said, " Get the facts straight." I invite him to give me the facts . -(Interjection) - You see, Mr.

Chairman , he now says I'm trying to stick to agriculture , so he is not prepared to give me the facts on which he wanted me to deal and therefore I just have to say that he has made no cont ri bution either from his seat or at the .. . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa on a point of order. MR. BLAKE: Mr . Chairman , this member can slip and slide around and make his insuations and draw some conclusions that aren 't really there .

We were discussing the Manitoba Agricultural Cred it Land Purchase Program , and I assume that he is referring to land deals that we have sold below cost , and obviously he's trying to slip in another deal like the Lord Selkirk, or something like that , which is usually his way to slip and slide around the facts of the case . But I assumed that we were going to stick to the Manitoba Agricultural Land Lease Program and the Minister 's Salary , and that was my reason for saying stick to the facts and gets your facts straight , ' Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR.

FOX: On a Point of Order , Mr . Chairman . 2906

.. Friday, April 20, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kildonan on the same point of order . MR. FOX: When we are discussing policies of government , there can be relevancy to the fact that you will mention other things which also fall into the same category of policy. If you are talking in respect to sale of goods that belong to the people of Manitoba, you don 't just have to indicate that only in one department has this happened , but it may be happening in other departments as well , and that's the point that the Member for St. Johns was indicating .

So I think , the Honourable Member for Minnedosa didn't have a point of order . MR. BLAKE: I'm telling him it hasn't happened in this particular department. MR. FOX: I'm just saying he didn 't have a point of order . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . The Chairman did not rule the Member for St. Johns out of order . The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, thank you . You know, Mr. Chairman, I'm not slipping and I'm not sliding . I'm going directly to the question of government policy . The fact that the Member for Minnedosa doesn't like the way I do it , is his problem , not my problem.

The fact that he wants to make slurring remarks on any other member , is his problem , not my problem . The fact that he has an insulting nature is his problem , not my problem. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'm out of order , am I not? MR. CHAIRMAN: Could the member remember to address his remarks to the Chairman? MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, Mr. Chairman . Well , but I remind you , Mr. Chairman, that the Member for Minnedosa talked about my slipping and sliding which is my usual manner and you did not bring him back to the subject. Now I'm back to the subject. Mr.

Chairman , the Member for Kildonan stated what is very obviously correct . There should be, in my estimation , the policy of th is government dealing with people 's property , with government property and that policy should be consistent. And this Minister has enunciated a policy as it applies to the land that he dealt with, which I believe is inconsistent with government policy in other departments and what I believe more important , is inconsistent with good practical management, and that 's what I'm getting at.

And I think it is important to know whether this Minister is deviating from or following general government policy on land. I believe he is deviating from it and I think that that is a very important question. If he says he is not deviating from it, then I would have to attack the entire government 's policy if he has enunciated government policy generally . So I think it's pretty important that we know what we're at, and I don 't care how much the Minister wants to refer in a slurring manner to friends or favouritism or anything like that , I am dealing with policy , I am deal ing with manner of selling land .

And I want to point out to the Minister the great danger of what he has in mind. and that is that people , once they know the government policy , and he has enunciated it more than once , of putting a reserve bid on cost, can readily find out cost and no other reserve bid is in advance . And that's the important feature.

When normally people are invited to make a market tender and are told there is a reserve bid , they have every right in the world to know that that reserve bid is related to market value and therefore , they have to decide what the land is worth to them, not what it's worth to the seller , but what it 's worth to the buyer . And that 's the way you get market value determined . I don 't know why I have to tell such basic things to the Minister but he apparantly doesn 't know it.

In order for people to be induced to bid market value and thus determine the market , they have to believe honestly that their competition in the bidding is also based on market value . But once they know that the reserve bid is not based .on market value , then they start thinking in their own minds knowing as they well might what the cost price is, that they can put in bids in exces s of cost price, less than market value , and proceed to buy the land at less than market value . It is false thinking that putting it up for bid for public tender automatically brings in market value .

It is what is in the minds of the people who bid for it that determines what the price will be. Now the government, as I understand it in this series of sales , did not refuse to sell to anyone 2907

Friday, April 20, 1979 who bid over cost. Now, I don 't blame them for refusing to sell for someone who bid under cost, but if, as they say, or as the Minister has said , that the cost was in excess of market value, then I have to ask why didn 't they sell at market value? Why do they not sell to a bidder who bids market value regardless of cost? And that has not been answered . I'd like to know what is the policy? What is the policy ; what will be the policy? ow, you see, Mr. Chairman, I paused for the Minister to respond and he's not responding and ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman , as I have stated , I have dealt with it for several hours of debate pnd that should satisfy the members of the opposition . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I know that the Minister dealt in debate on this for several hours , he says , on the question of what they did . Now , I am trying to avoid discussing what they did .

I'm trying to discuss the policy, giving the Minister my reasons for thinking that it's a wrong policy and since I gather from him that it's the existing policy , I thought he would try to justify the existing policy in response to my argument as to why I think it 's wrong , and that 's why 1 paused for his response and I still hope he will respond to that. MR. DOWNEY: I will , when the member is finished . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. ohns - pass . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , the Minister says he will when I'm finished . I've finished that point. MR. DOWNEY : Mr .

Chairman , when all the members have their opportunity , then 1 will respond to it. MR. CHERNIACK: We don 't know whether we are entirely finished until we hear more debate . The Minister does not have any opportunity or right to close debate to say that I will wait til everybody asks questions and then I will respond . He has a right to say: " I won 't respond ", or " to respond ", and then if he raises some points that I disagree with I have a right to answer that. If he wants to change the rules somehow , he'd better do it in some other manner . MR. DOWNEY: You haven 't finished . MR.

CHAIRMAN: Pass - the Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairman, then let me repeat , that the great danger of the existing policy is that people who know the cost to government can pretty closely predict what the reserve bid will be, and if the policy of government is to accept tenders that are in excess of the cost , but less than market value , then that destroys the whole system of objective public tendering with closed reserve bid, and I think it's a terrible danger . And I think that this government through is Minister , has embarked on a very serious practice .

Now , what bothers me is not only is it wrong in this department but it would be much more dangerous in other departments and yet there seems to be a difference in policy and I think that we're entitled to know and the people in Manitoba are entitled to know whether the Department of Agriculture is opera ting in a way different from the rest of the Province of Mani toba. And I think the Minister owes it to the people of Manitoba, if not to the opposition, to give a clear-cut explanation of why it is that his department is prepared to sell land on a different basis than the rest of government. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honoura ble Minister. MR. DOWNEY: The only response I have again , is to repeat , Mr. Chairman , that if there were any ·- change in policy , it would affect the policy in which they had , which in fact, would have been same kind of a deviation . When we talk of the land lease program , which in fact , gives one individual the right to purchase it at the ext to the corporation , plus carrying charges , why should not the people of the province of Manitoba have an opportunity to bid on surplus land, surplus land at the cost to the corporation , plus carrying charges .

I again refer , if there is a change in policy , which there isn't, then in fact , the total sae of the land lease land by the Manitoba Agr icultural Corporation, 2908

.. Friday, April 20, 1979 which was their policy, Mr. Chairman, will have to be reconsidered . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Ch~rman, the minister is saying that , as if it's a sort of a threat, you know , if we're going to change policy, it'll affect others.

In the first place, there is a contract involved and I don't know whether this government is prepared to ignore a contract and to pass a law, sayingthat we cancelled the contracts , or the minister doesn't recognize the fact that under that contract that he is referring to, people madea commitment to enter on to premises, to work land , to develop land, to dedicate themselves to it and must in -(Interjection)- Shall 1 repeat what the minister has just said, if that 's his language. MR. DOWNEY: I said balderdash . MR. CHERNIACK: That's ot what you said , is it? In any event , Mr. Chairman , I want to know.

He thinks that wht I just said was "balderdash", I want to know if that's true or not. My understanding is that -(Interjection)- now I'm going togive him a chance to explain it. My understand is hat when the land was leased to a farmer, he was committed to paying rent at a subsidized rate and that he had an opportunity to buy the lan under certain terms and on condition that he held the land for some period of time.

I recall the original contract was , that he had to pay the cost of carrying charges or the market value, whichever was higher and that there was a lot of complaints and I think from the Conservative opposition about that and the policy was then changed, that he would have to pay the cost and carrying charges , but could not resell the land for some period of time, that he could not be a speculator , by buying at cost and reselling at market. That's my recollection and that he could recapture part of that market at the rate of 5 percent per year, which implies 20 years before he could get the full advantage.

Now, if that's "balderdash " then I want the minister to explain to what extent that is balderdash. MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , the minister , who again interjected balderdash and another descriptive word , i now not prepared to back up his statement. What I was saying , is that there is a difference, but if in principle , h thinks that that deal was wrong, then he should negotiate a change. If in principle, he thinks that deal was wrong, that should not affect the correct policy of how you sell land and that is I'm talking about the rese rve bid . And peculiarly enough, Mr .

Chairman, I started talk ing about the policy of how you set a reserve bid ,and he has been dragging me off into various other venues , but I keep coming back to the reserve bid principle. He's justifying what I consider a wrong approach to the reserve bid, on the basis of how it affects people who have a contractual relationship with the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. I don't se it that way at all.

I don't see how you treat a person who has a contract , a lease and an option to purchase for certain land, you treat him in exatly the same way that you treat any other person and I suppose, any person from the length and breadth of Canada or maybe, even outside of Canada, who may want to bid for that land. Is he suggesting that it is the same thing? MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass . The Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: So , Mr .

Chairman , we now have the situation where the minister has had every opportunity to respond and has not done so to the questions I've just asked and we have then a situatin , which to me is pretty clear-cut. The Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation follows a different procedure than, as far as I know , the rest of government has in disposing of what it deems to be surplus land .

That tqt procedure is an invitation in my estimation of people to cash in on the fact that they have advanced knowledge of the approximate reserve bid, and know that th e policy of the government is to sell that land above reserve bid, abve the cost, but not necessarily at market value . And that to me, is a very very dangerous procedure .

You know , members may think it 's not important , but I think that it 's terribly important that th e government should be prep ared to e nunciate a policy , as it is done , tha t people who are invited ._ to tend er for land , knowng the reserv e bid , know also that that reserve bid is not related to market value . I really think it' s terribly serious and I dm't think that the ministe r has the right , in any way , to rely on this policy because he doe sn't like what the former government did , because what the former government did was in his estimation wrong .

It is improper for him as a minister to be influe nced by what the previous government did , in determining how to deal with government property now . And h says , " Amen " to me , Mr. Chairman , and now I have to say to him thatit's terrib ly serious that he is not changing that policy . He is still prepared , without justification - I 2909

Friday, April 20, 1979 make that point very strongly - he has not justified the policy is now following, except by ref erring to what the previous government did, and I think that's wrong when the government has land , either it or its Crown corporation has land which it considers surplus and wishes to sell it , it is prepared to sell it at less than market value .

And he has not justified that , except by reference to actions of the previous government , and I think that is completely irresponsible , especially when he poses as a member of a government which is going to set all the bookkeeping straight and correct all the errors. He is now falling into a terrible trap and it deals with property owned by the people of Manitoba. And I think that that is inexcusable, especially since he has not justified this policy .

Now, I fear that since he is an influential person , as I recall it, he was and probabl y still is a Member of the Treasury Board , I think he was a Member of the Treasury Board , he may be influencing other ministers to deal with people 's property the same say.

And I think that that is a very bad practice , because then it means that the government will be selling its property at market or less, I'm sorry - at cost or less because once it is known that the government's reserve bid is based on cost and carrying charges , and that if the market value is less than tha t, then how can they sell it for more than market. They will be put into a position of selling at cost or less , inviting losses all the way. There will be a time Mr.

Chairman , when they won 't be able to blame the previous government , because how long can you keep on saying , " You did things your way ." They 're going to have to stand on their own feet , and make their own decisions based on their own practices, without being able to refer to previous governments , and trying to lay blame , or cast slurs . And that , to me, means that they are going to be ... well , I hope they 'll be changing the policy , or that this Minister loses his influence to determine policy along the lines that he has enunciated .

I think it's a very serious thing that he is doing, and I think that the worst thing is that he's not even justifying what he is doing , except by saying , " I don 't like the way your previous government handled matters. " MR. CHAIR MAN: The Member for St. George . MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you , Mr. Chairman .

It seems that the Min ister of Agricultu re doesn 't in his usual way to this committee in the last prepared days that we've been ... right from the beginning , was not to answer questions or put his government's policies on the line and explain them in the manner that will provide this committee with information and advise. I'd like to ask the Minister , of the 120 staff positions that the department is being reduced by, how many of those positions - and I think we had , I'm not sure that I have my totals accurate - were vacant positions? Could the Minister indicate , approximately? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourab le Minister . MR. DOWNEY: believe approximately 80 , Mr. Chairman . I believe there were about 41 people left with , that were in positions , out of the 120 that he's referring to . MR. URUSK I: Of those 40 people , were some of those people transferred to other departments? MR. DOWNE Y: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI : Thank you. Mr. Chairman , I wanted to ask a couple of questions with respect to the Income Assurance Plan .

The Minister indicated that he received a legal opinion with respect to the contract , and his responsibility under the contract , and also , with resp ect to the letter that he wrote , I believe it was last June - June 28th , to be exact - could he indicate who he consulted with respect to a legal opinion . Was it the Attorney-General 's department that prov ided him that written legal opinion . MR. DOWNE Y: We had legal opin ion from both the Attorney-General 's department and outside the government , MR. Chairman . MR.

URUSKI : Could the Minister indicate . .. is he prepared to indicate what firm provided him with the legal opinion? Was this legal opinion the legislative legal opin ion from Ray Tallin ; was that sought as well within the Legislature , or just from the AttorneyGeneral 's D epartment , and an outside firm? 2910

Friday, April 20, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: From the Attorney -General's department , and an outside opinion, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , could the Minister indicate who the firm was that provided him with the legal opinion , based on that letter that he has . I don 't have ... MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman, the department were instructed to get a legal opinion , and 1 don't have that. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , could the Minister indicate whether the opinion indicated that it was possible for the designation of the contract holder to be the third party in terms of handling the purchases, whether you could designate without renegotiating that contract with the contract holder to have him be, as well, the purchaser . MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR.URUSKI: That opinion the Minister indicates was substantiated . MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Has the Minister that legal opinion in writing? MR. DOWNEY: I would have to check , Mr. Chairman.

I think , the indication that I've had is verbally from the department. So I would check; I can 't recall it, Mr. Chairman. It's some several months ago. MR. URUSKI: Would the Minister be prepared to provide us with a copy of that legal opinion? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: Mr . Cha irman , the act ions of th is Minister over the whole course of the Estimates has really shown that he wishes not to supply information , and wishes not to be open and aboveboard with this committee .

The Minister , in his remarks , at least I have to give him credit that he indicated when his staff reductions within the department , he spoke about positions , and not in the manner that his First Minister has talked about , Civil Services being reduced by so many people . The whole Conservative thrust , in the last couple of years , was to, I believe , continue the fraud that they are reducing the Civil Service ; and this Minister , at least he was half-honest with us, that although he's playing with numbers , that there is a reduction in the staff , the vast majority of those positions were vacant.

And if they weren 't vacant , staff was being transferred , so in effect , the Minister was playing with figures , and there was no reduction in staff within the department . All that he was playing with was paper figures. Mr. Chairman , this Minister , and it 's been pointed out by my colleague , the Member for St . Johns , and the Member for Lac du Bonnet . .. A MEMBER: Do you consider them colleagues , Billie? MR. URUSKI: Yes, I co nsider them very able colleagues , Mr. Chairman .

He has shown very clearly how he has mismanaged the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation by selling off its assets without regard for the current mar ket value of those assets . Mr . Chairman , as well , th e Minister in han dling the Beef Income Assurance Plan is attempting to really play both ends against the midd le. He will want to come out , if his legal opinion is not accur ate . . . He is setting up a system that , I believe , may have the effect of treating many producers inequit ably .

You will have thos e produc ers who indicate th at they owe money , will voluntarily come fo rward and pay the portion that they owe under the co ntract , while you will have other producers in t his prov ince indicating that they will not , they will not pay any moneys unless they are challenged in court , Mr. Chairman . 2911

Friday, April 20, 1979 And this Minister will, I believe, in a future attempt to paint the picture by saying, " Look, that contract wasn 't good , the contract was written poorly , and that is the reason why the province could not collect the funds that it wanted to ." And what you will have , you will have the spectacle, Mr.

Chairman , of some producers paying, and some producers staying away , primarily , basically, on the basis that this Minister has tampere d with the contract , has not lived up to the written word of the contract that we have befo re us, and he is going to be placing many producers in a very awkward position , and may affect them very inequitably . Mr.

Chairman , this Minister , as well, in dealing with the provincial regional offices of his department is prepared to move regional offices from one community to another without any rationale for the move , other than it can be interpreted that it's a political payoff to one community at the expense of another . That is what this Minister is prepared to do in dealing with the movement of staff and offices from one area to another . Mr . Chairman , the Conservatives have been in office for a year-and-a-half in this province .

This Premier , and this Minister , have gone to a Western Premiers ' Conference , and have made public announcements that the crowrate should be reviewed . Mr. Chairman, the producers of grain should not have their incomes eroded , or tampered with on the basis that railways need compensatory rates , and the farmer will have to pay more . -(Inte rjection )- Yes, Mr. Chairman , I believe maybe if we repeat some of these things often enough, that it may sink through some of the members on the government side.

I believe this government is prepared to place the interests of railways ahead of the producers , even when the Premier of this Province has been rebuked by his colleagues, the three other western premiers, on his submission to the Western Premiers ' Conference . And yet , this Premier says that the crowrates have to be re-examined. By taking that position, Mr. Chairman , this can only lead to one thing: A shift of the costs from the national government to the individual producers . Producers in Manitoba , Mr.

Chairman , can ill afford to pay at least an additional 50 cents per bushel of grain transported, but yet , this government is prepared to talk about and renegotiate - they 're not prepared to fight the national government and indicate that transportation is a national policy , that improvements in transportation have to be made , but not at the expense of the producers . But yet, they are taking that opposite position . Mr.

Chairman , this Minister , as well, in his statements over a year ago , he made very brave statements with respect to the Marketing Board , under The Chicken Broiler Act , where Manitoba would negotiate , and he would only enter into a national agreement if Manitoba was in a pos ition to be allowed an increase of one-half of one percent per year for the first five years, and that there be consideration at the end of tha t per iod for an increase in the market.

He continued to make that statement , that Manitoba was putting a tough position , that Manitoba could move live and processed products interprovincially without restriction . Well , Mr. Chairman , those statements that he made a year ago. and since the n, have now come to haunt him. One of the boards , the national boards, have now entered into an agreement, Mr. Chairman , with this Minister indicated that he had no knowledge , or was not prepared to move in the area , he was not aware , he was not involved in that decision , but the decis ion made by the Turkey Board in this province , Mr .

Chairman , has placed the producers of Manitoba , in all commodity groups , in jeopardy , their position with respect to national schemes in jeopardy. And only because , Mr . Chairman , because this Minister, over the last year , was prepared to make loud noises with respect to future agreements in market share. We have a situation now in Manitoba , Mr. Chairman , that the producers of all commodities can do nothing but lose . They are placed in a position that they will lose.

If this Minister is serious about his positon that national market ing schemes should be maintained , this Minister would now tell the Turkey Marketing Board that what they have done is illegal , that the position of Manitoba and the ... the Member from Roblin last night was indicating that we should take off our MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina , on a point of order . MR. DON ORCHARD : Yes, Mr.

Chairman , I am not certain of the circumstances here , but normally, when questions are asked in the House , where a lawyer is involved in a legal case, we are not allowed to comment on the basis of conflict of interest. And in this case , when the Member for St. George is highly involved in the turkey industry , he might be purely questioning the Minister on a vested interest positon , and hence would not be qualified ; he wants to protect his own little nest , and , Mr . Chairman, I would suggest that his comments might be out of order , and indeed , highly improper at this time . 2912 :

Friday, April 20, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina does not have a point of order. The Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr . Chairman, I just want to make one brief comment, that if the Member for Pembina . . . MR. ORCHARD: On a point of order, please. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Is that on the same point of order? MR. PAWLEY: On the point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: I already ruled the point of order out of order. MR. PAWLEY: Well, I think that the member's logic would disqualify pretty well every member ·across the table from speaking on the agricultural estimates. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order please. The member did not have a point of order. The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I am pleased that the member is at least interested that I am attempting to defend the interests of producers in this province, because if the agreement that the National Turkey Marketing Agency has agreed to, in deviating from the formula that was agreed to by the Province of Manitoba, and all the provinces in Canada, of establishing the market share agreement on the basis of historical market positions . Now we have moved away from that , Mr .

Chairman , now the new market agreements that will be entered into from this day on , in the turkey industry , will be on the basis of population, of national share of population, and of population growth. Mr. Chairman, this type of an agreement , and it relates back to the Minister 's statements of last year , this type of an agreement places all the producers of Manitoba in an untenable position , where the Manitoba producers of all commodities who are organized nationally can do nothing but lose in the long term.

They will be in a loss position, and it will be a death blow to orderly marketing, and national marketing schemes in this province if this Minister allows that agreement to go through . Mr . Chairman , the Conservative Minister has been in office for more than a year and a half , and yet, Mr . Chairman , he has not been able to take hold and provide the leadership and direction to his department. Mr. Chairman , he has no Deputy Minister . He's been in office for a year and a half , and he has not seen fit to appoint a Deputy Minister . He has appointed one in an acting position .

I ask the Minister whether the man that he has in that position is not good enough for the position of Deputy Minister . If he is not good enough , Mr. Chairman , you've had a year and a half in which to appoint a Deputy Minister . Mr. Chairman , the Minister of Agriculture has also several key positions , where he indicated the posit ions are vacant. He has reorganized his total department , but he does not have any confidence in his staff, Mr. Chairman, because he has not seen fit to appoint Assistant Deputy Ministers to head up the branches that he has created . Mr.

Chairman, he's had a year and a half to deal with his department . Is he not prepared to appoint the people in those branches? His department , Mr. Chairman, I believe remains in a state of chaos, with no leadership or direction shown by this Minister to his staff . Mr. Chairman , this Minister is like the , as they say, the Prairie Schooner , with no helmsman and a broken sail. That is how he is handling his depart ment. Mr.

Chairman, in this Minister 's attendance, and giving of information to this committee , he was ..- going to provide informat ion to this committee to the point of view that he threatened members in that he indicated that if we did not stop our debate, that he was going to produce information. We have yet to see that information produced to this committee . The Minister hasn 't indicated whether he will be prepared to be open and honest with the people of Manitoba.

He indicated that he would consider bringing forward all the files of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation to the committee, making them open , for review, and all the loans made , in the same manner as the Manitoba Development Corporation has been opened up . But this Minister sits back and says, " I will consider it, and I will give you answers" , but we have yet to see those answers . Mr . Chairman' in view of his dismal approach to this committee,

whereas this Minister of Agriculture has mismanaged the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation by selling off its assets without regard for the current market value of those assets , and

whereas the Minister of Agriculture 2913

Friday, April 20, 1979 has mismanaged the Beef Income Assurance Plan by setting up a system of operating the plan which may affect producers inequitab ly, and

whereas this Minister of Agriculture, by his public announcements on national marketing, has placed the interests of Manitoba producers involved in national marketing schemes in jeopardy, and

whereas this Minister of Agriculture, under the direction of his leader , have abandoned the grain producers of Manitoba for the sake of compensating the railways by wishing to review the crowrates: Mr. Chairman , I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, that Resolution 6.(

a) be reduced by $15,596.98, to the sum of $3.02 - that being the price of a bushel of No. 3 wheat , which the producers of Manitoba can ill afford to lose an additional 50 cents a bushel if the program that the Minister has embarked on will suc ceed . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I would ask the indulgence of the committee while we consider whether the motion is in order. Order please. The Chair rules that the motion as presented, according to

Section 492 , is out of order , and that it is not allowable to attach a condition or an expression of opinion to a vote , or to change the destinat ion of a grant. The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, then there would only be need to remove the words after $3.02 . MR. CLERK: And the whereases. MR. URUSKI: And the whereases? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR. URUSKI: Oh, I see. That's fine, there is no problem there - no problem . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone . MR. JAMES R.

FERGUSON: Yes, on a point of order , the other evening we had a motion put before the committee, and it wasn 't proper , so it was not allowed . And we didn 't get another opportunity to redraft it, so what is the ruling here? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition . MR. PAWLEY: I think that all that you were doing , Mr. Chairman , was demonstrating a courtesy . Apparently the Member for Gladstone doesn 't believe in courtesies . If you 're going to be railroaded on this, Mr. Chairman , we're quite prepared to carry on debate while the Member for St. George does complete the writing of the resolution . MR.

SPEAKER: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I thank the Chair for its indulgence in terms of my concluding remarks on this and I will place the motion as it appears the rules call , Mr. Chairman . I move, seconded by the Member for Ste . Rose, that Resolution 6.(

a) be reduced by $15 ,596.98 to the sum of $3.02. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. PAWLEY : Mr. Chairman , one of the most revealing areas of concern that has been increasingly developing on the part of the government as expressed through the First Minister as well as his Minister of Agriculture , is their position in respect to the crowrates . Mr. Chairman , we have witnessed the fact that the railroads are once more mounting an assault on the crowrates and are pleading the case that they are losing money . Mr.

Chairman , many of us are less than fully sympathetic with the railways ' problems because of their past conduct. They have let their branch lines run down until they are in dangerous condition and they have refused to purchase necessary equipment . Having done this they said the lines were inefficient . Mr. Chairman , by the Minister indicating that he wishes to review the crowrates and by the First Minister indicating the same desi re, what we are doing is witnessing a weak-kneed approach by a Conservative Government , Mr.

Chairman, that is principally not concerned about the lot of the western grain farmer , even though they may represent themselves to be principally concerned about 2914

Friday, April 20, 1979 the western grain farmer, but in fact are more concerned about the interests of the railways themselves. Mr. Chairman , there are four various methods by which the review can undertake . One is that the crowrates could stay as they are and the railway companies be asked to absorb the losses. Secondly , the crowrates could stay as they are for farmers and a subsidy could be paid to the railway companies , and that would be either partly or fully making up their loss, and this is a solution that was recommended by the Hall Commission .

Thirdly , the statute could be changed to increase the statutory crowrates paid by farmers or , fourthly , the statute covering the crowrates could be repealed and substituted with some other way of settling rates for grain . Now, Mr. Chairman, there is a vast difference in the implication in each of these four methods. Mr . Chairman, the First Minister and the Minister of Agriculture continue to speak in terms of review, support for review of the crowrates. Mr.

Chairman , they have left the farmers of western Canada in doubt as to their position , they have left the farmers of western Canada in doubt as to what they would like to see implemented and fortunately , Mr. Chairman, the other western Premiers saw fit to disassociate themselves from the irresponsible and weak-kneed approach of lhe First Minister of this Province as well as the Minister of Agriculture .

At the March 27th Conference , both Bennett of B.C., Lougheed of Alberta, and Blakeney of Saskatchewan , all echoed their opposition to the proposal that had been made by this government to that conference in Prince Rupert, and in fact the Saskatchewan Premier, Allan Blakeney, indicated that he disagreed on virtually every statement on the crowrates uttered by this government of Manitoba, and he indicated also that it in fact differed pretty well with every item, every position that Saskatchewan had in the past undertaken . Now , Mr.

Chairman , the problem is that this government wishes to negotiate from weakness with the railroads. They wish to open the door to the pressures and the assault that has been mounted by the railways over the past number of years in order to reopen and to review the crowrates. And , Mr. Chairman, it is suggested often that, oh, if we could review and increase the rates and the railway companies do better , that in fact service would be improved .

In fact, what this government should be demanding from the railway companies , is a guarantee and an assurance that in fact if the rates are increased, whether it be triple or quadruple, that in fact service would be improved to the western agricultural producer . Mr.

Chairman , in North Dakota , in Minnesota, in other northern midwestern grain producing areas in United States , the freight rates are in fact triple and quadruple , the rates that they are in Manitoba and Saskatchewan , Alberta, the western agricultural producers , and the fact is from the information that I have received , that the standard of service is not better, not better , insofar as providing transportation for the agricultural producer of the midwestern United States . There has been no improvement .

And if in fact this government wishes to assist in isolation from the other western provinces , the railway companies to increase their rates , then I believe that this government ought to , as it being incumbent upon them, to demand a guarantee or an assurance that what we observed in the United States with the tripling or the quadrupling of rates would not be copied in western Canada. Mr. Chairman, I believe that this is one of the most critical areas that is confronting us in western Canada . The crowrates were established in 1897 as a result of agreement with the railways .

In return the railways received certain concessions and I believe, as a result of those concessions, it's incumbent upon this government to ensure that it does all that it can to retain the present rates, unless in fact the concessions which were given to the railways, the CPR in 1897 are to be returned to the public and to the Crown from whence those concessions had been given in the first instance . A second area, Mr.

Chairman , of concern to the opposition, is the fact that we had developed a policy commonly known as the stay option, a policy which had been developed in order to reverse the trends which had been in effect during the sixties , a trend which had been indicated and predicted by the TED Report , would drastically reduce the number of farmers in Manitoba by 1980 and thereafter .

I want to give credit to the former Minister of Agriculture, the Member for Lac du Bonnet, who I feel carried on one of the most courageous and strenuous efforts in order to ensure the reverse of the depopulation in the rural communities in Manitoba. Many programs which one can list were developed during that period of time by the former Minister of Agriculture in order to assist and ensure the improvement of the health of the small rural communities in Manitoba.

Despite his efforts, members often , across the way , did all they could to attempt to attack and to misrepresent repeatedly , misrepresent the policies and the programs by the former Minister of Agriculture . Mr. Chairman, what we are observing at the present time is the reverse of this situation. We are observing a program and an approach, Mr. Chairman, that is going to lead to larger and larger farm units. We 're going to be faced with the increase in the size of farm units with an intensification of the loss of population, loss of assessment in rural communities , the fact that they will not be 2915

Friday, April 20, 1979 the same numbers of people in rural communi ties in order to utilize the hospitals and schools and other facilities of rural communities. And , Mr. Chairman , the net result of that , will be developing prob lems in our urban centres particularly in the City of Winnipeg and the core area as more and more move and drift from the rural . .. -(Interjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , the result of that trend which is being intensified . . . -(I nterjection) - MR. CHAIRMAN : Order . The Honourable Leader of the Oppos ition . MR.

PAWLEY: The intensification of that , Mr . Chairman , is what I believe we will be observing with the policies that are being developed and initiated by this Minister of Agriculture. I referre d earlier to their weak-kneed position on the crowrates, we solved their position in respect to The Farmlands Protection Act. They weakened that legislation and the result of that weakening , Mr.

Chairman , I forecast will be in the development of some larger farm units that will be occupied and will be operated by non-family farmers in the rural areas , and that was a program which I feel was initiated by the former Minister of Agriculture with a deliberate effort on his

part in order to ensure that the family-farm families would maintain family farming in rural Manitoba . Mr. Chairman , the problem is that this government is more interested in agro-business in larger farm units , with the consequent dwindling of farm population than they are in ensuring stay option and developing programs for stay option , for improving and increasing the number of family farmers , and the result of that, Mr.

Chairman , unfortunately is, that the old TED Report which they had commissioned and which had forecast a steep de-population trend , is probably going to be re-initiated , re-intensified because of the . policies of this Minister of Agriculture by his First Minister, and therefore , Mr . Chairman , it has been very rare that the opposition has seen fit to introduce a motion such as this during this Session . I bel ieve I'm correct in saying this is the first such motion that has been introduced. It's not done frequently , it's only done after a great deal of serious consideration and , Mr.

Chairman, the opposition has no hesitation in supporting this resolution with enthus iasm because of the lack of policy direction, because of the abandonment of former policies which were intended in order to improve the lot of the family farmer in Manitoba, and by the consequent injurio us effects that this is going to have to our rural communities in the province. QUESTION put. A COUNTED VOTE was taken , the result being as follows : Yeas 3, Nays 7. MR. CHAIRMAN: I declare the motion defeated . (a)-pass . Resolution 6- pass .

Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not excee ding $2,244,200 for Agricu lture pass. Tha t concludes the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Warren Steen (Crescentwood) : I ANs ' would like to draw the member attention to Page 30 of the Estimates, Item 3. Financial Support , Public Schools. The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK : Mr.

Chairman , moving along through the Estimates now we are to the largest item in terms of dollars and cents , and that's the school grants basically , plus som e other items included in there but that really consti tut es the main one and I would suspect that this really is the item of greatest concern to the people of Manitoba . Because contained within here, contained within the amount of the cheque as it were that each school division receives is a reflection of the type of education program, of the general thrust of this government in education programing and so forth. So that being the case , Mr .

Chairman , as in other items of the Estimates one can not really get away from debating the philosophy of the education program of this government; one cannot get away from attempting to articulate our philosophy. But taking things in their proper sequential order , I think that at this point in time it's very important that we do have the government 2916 .·

Friday, April 20, 1979 articulate its position, its philosophy of education in crystal clear terms. And then after that is done, we would be able to pass judgment on the adequacy or inadequacy of the level of funding, we would be able to pass judgment on the types of programs that are being funded and so forth. So that being the case, Mr. Chairman, I must put the question to to the Minister , once again, that we would like the Minister to spell out his government's position on a number of policy issues related to his department.

Now on checking back Hansard I note that on Tuesday night the Minister said, and I am quoting from Page 2726, the Minister said in part, "In 18 months I think I will have the pleasure of being able to point out some rather clear policy directions that we have taken. " Well, Mr. Chairman, you know this brings me to the envelope story. This government has been in office for 18 months and now the Minister says that he needs another 18 months , 36 months , three years to have the pleasure of being able to point out some rather clear policy directions. But, Mr .

Chairman, in September and October of 1977 when the Conservative Party ran in the election, it did not say to the people of Manitoba , elect us, give us three years to examine the education program in Manitoba and some time in 1980 we will present a program , a model, a blueprint of an education program for the people of Manitoba .

The Minister and his colleagues in the months of September and up to October 11, 1977, they went out and said to the people , "Elect us, we know how to run the government and we know how to run the Education Department." They didn't tell us very much then what they will do in running it but they said they knew how. They said they knew how then. Now the Minister is saying , give me another 18 months and then I will point out some - and even here he's hedging - some rather clear policy directions .

He's not even assuring us that in 18 months time he will present to the people of Manitoba any clear policy directions . He simply expresses a hope that they may be rather clear . Then, you know, just reviewing Hansard because I regret that I was unable to attend the sitting of this Committee on that evening , I note that the Minister said something that really puzzles me.

He says, " But what governments can do is interfere to a certain extent or cloud that process or distort that process by policies of curriculum, policies and assessment , different policies that prevent that professional from maintaining particular standards of achievement in the pupils in their classrooms. " Is the Minister suggesting, Mr . Chairman , that this government is interfering in some way with the delivery of the education program? I would like to think that -(Interjection)- Oh, now the Minister is saying that we did . Now I would want the Minister -(Interjection)- I did .

Well I'm glad to hear that so at least the Minister is admitting that during the last year when I was not the Minister of Education, when Mr. Turnbull was the Minister , that there was no interference . Well I'm glad. I'm glad to hear that. Now you know this reminds me of a point that I made last night. The Minister said, "I can only say that I'm very pleased that people with that type of thinking ", he was referring to my colleague the Honourable Member for St. Vita l, "we ren 't around when I was going to school because I didn 't know at the time I was a poor kid.

No one bothered telling me and I wrote the same tests as everyone else and the teacher didn 't treat me one bit differently than the so-called student who came from a higher socio-economic level." And then he goes on to say, " And as a result I had the same opportunities. I take great exception , Mr. Chairman, to those who would suggest that if we live in a poor part of a city or in an area that is economically not as fortunate as some other area that you should be exposed to a different type of education. I say that is rank discrimination, " says the Minister and he repeats that again . Yes and he said it again.

You know , Mr. Chairman , that certainly has overtones of what I said last night when I reminded the Minister of the debate about a universally accessible public school education program which occurred in this province in the 1870s when at that time you will recall, Mr . Chairman , I had reminded the Committee that the argument against a public school education program funded out the public purse was that that would be an encroachment upon one's private human rights , that this choice should be left up to the individual as to whether he wants to send his children to school or not .

Here what the Minister is saying really is we've got to provide the same type of education program .- right across the board for all children regardless of their particular needs. Let 's forget about any special needs that a child of a certain socio-economic level may have ; let 's forget about the special needs that a child who may be new to our particular environment and culture may have, either from another part of the province , or from another country ; because , if we do that , the Minister is saying to these people , "You know, we 'll be discr iminating.

Surely you don't want to be discriminated against, so therefore we'll provide the same program, we 'll provide the same program for all. " That is really what the Ministe r is implying , Mr. Chairman. Then he also says , " You know , when I went to school , we were all provided the same educational program , the poor and the rich. There was no difference then. " And then he says, " I'm glad that there weren 't people like the Honourable Member for St. Vital around at that time . We were all treated the same. " You know , it brings to my mind the comment that I made in the letter to the 2917

Friday, April 20, 1979 Honourable Minister of Economic Development about his two-bit , and which he admitted is a two-bit program , because he said he only spent about $25 on it; his professional bird service program , when I made reference to the ostriches on that side of the House. And here , the Honourable Minister is admitting having been an ostrich at that time, having buried his head in the sand. and he did not see the community around him.

He wasn 't aware of the fact that - yes, it 's true , he had the good fortune to be able to attend school, and to obtain an education , as others did, but he failed to take into account the tens of thousands of people who did not have an opportun ity to attend school. And there were many of them . And in rural areas , and poor rural areas , the honourable member should well know , that the school drop-out rate was high, tha t not only was the drop-out rate high , the incidence of illness was high, and hence the attendance rate was low .

And the honourable member well knows that there were not programs geared to meet the needs of every child at that time , because those kids who were not able to toe the line , who were not able to progress at the rate that their teacher expected them to - where were they put? They were put at the back of the class; and they sat there , and they sat there, and they sat there until they got fed up with sitting and quit school.

That 's what happened then , and the Minister knows that, because there was no other way at that time , when the teacher had all grades from One to Eight , and on occasion 30, 40 and 45 pupils , there was no way that a teacher was able to deal with the 14-year-old who had missed a couple of weeks of school , who may have been in Grade Four or Five - and there were some 14-year-olds at that time , even in Grade Two . I remember them up at Hodgson , Marble Ridge School , 14 years of age , and still struggling through a Grade One or a Grade Two reader , alongside six-year-olds .

And the Minister, I'm sure , remembers that , so there was no meaningful program designed for them then . So, it wasn 't all that rosy at that time, as the Minister may try to make it appear that , " Look , in my day , we never even mentioned the word poor , and somehow we all managed to get through school." Yes, the Minister managed to get through school ; I was one of the fortunate ones to get through school at that time ; and there were others , of course . But there were tens of thousands who did not manage to get through school , and the Minister knows that.

Here , we're talking about financial support for school divisions , and on Tuesday night , in talking about local autonomy, the Minister briefly said, or attempted to reassure the people of Manitoba tha t it's not his intention to in any way encroach upon or erode the measure of autonomy that school divisions ought to enjoy. But in the same breath he also said , " By the same token , I see the area of responsibility of the department to be one that takes a very strong and forceful form in a formation of curriculum and program formation for the school systems of this province ." Now , Mr.

Chairman , prior to issuing the pay cheques and the grants to the school divisions , I think that the Minister ought to explain what he means by this statement to the school boards , because the problem that I see is this: Here the Minister is saying that he inte nds to tak e a very strong and forceful form in the formation of curriculum and program formation, and then he says, " But the actual running of the schools , and so on , always has been , and always will be , under the jurisdictional responsibility of the boards ." But here's a dilemma that the school divisions are going to find themselves in.

The Minister , in exercising his strong and forceful role in the formation of curriculum , which he indicates he is going to exercise , will indicate to the school boards that you must teach this , that , so much of this , so much of that , and then some school board might say, " Well , but we need some time.

We need 30 minutes a day, or an hour a day, fo r some other education program that is of particular value , relevance , and need , and benefit , to our students." The Minister is going to say, " Well , sorry , you can 't do that , because I am assuming the very strong and forceful role in the formation of curriculum ; I am the Minister of Education ; what I prescribe must come first ; so here are the regulations , this is what you must do, and if you feel that you must enrich or vary the program in some way to meet your own particular needs, well, you find your own time , and ways and means of doing it, and find your own money to do it with ." So , really , the two do not square , the two statements that the Minister made , that he is going to take a more stronger , the more forceful role , but at the same time , the school divisions are going to enjoy the same degree of autonomy .

And , by school divisions , I am including the school boards and the teachers . The two just don't square , Mr . Chairman. So the Minister has to explain that to the people of Manitoba.

Related to financial support , the task force did make certain recommendations not only with relation to funding of school div isions , but also the operations of the Public Schools ' Finance Board; and on Tuesday night , the Minister , in response to the question as to which recommendations of the task force did he adopt, and which did he not adopt , with reference to the question regarding the recommendation of holding back of funds , I must admit that he did respond to that by indicating 2918 v

Friday, April 20, 1979 that there may have been some slight misunderstanding, or an unawareness of some of the provisions of The Public Schools Act, and so the task force may have gone a bit overboard in its recommendations . But, insofar as the recommendations in general are concerned, and the balance of the recommendations, the Minister's reply was, "As far as the other task force recommendations, we have considered these, and some of them we have acted upon in the reorganization of our department and some of the policies within our department.

Others we have not seen fit to act upon at this time, and quite possibly will not at any time act upon them." Well , Mr. Chairman, I do not believe that the people of Manitoba are deserving of that type of a nonchalant answer as the Minister had given them. You know, "Some recommendations we've acted on , some we haven 't. " I think that the Minister owes it to the people of Manitoba to be more specific and more precise in spelling out those recommendations which he did accept and those which he did not accept .

Now , you know , then he goes on to say, and again in his cavalier manner , he says, " If the Member for Winnipeg Centre is asking that we go through with the Task Force report on education clause by clause and tell him those that we have adopted and those that we have not adopted . I can give him that particular information. It will take a day or so to gather it together ." Well, you know , maybe it tells us something about the Task Farce , Mr.

Chairman, because if the Task Farce report were a document intended by government to be taken seriously, you know, then the Minister , in dealing with it, in studying the recommendations and considering the pros and cons of adopting the recommendations , over the past twelve months he would have memorized the recommendations. He would have memorized them . He would have been able to stand up and recite all the recommendations and not only recite the recommendations but also he would have his responses to them memorized and he would have them all at the tip of his fingers.

Now , obviously the Minister receiv ed the Task Farce report and I guess it 's sitting somewhere in his office accumulating dust and from time to time somebody , one of the cleaning staff , you know , brushes the dust off, if it's on some open shelf or maybe it's buried in the back of some file , and the Minister hasn 't looked at it since the day that it was delivered to his office . So that type of answer that some recommendations we've accepted and some we didn 't. Now , fair enough .

We do not expect the Minister to take two , three , four , five hours to deal in great detail with his analysis of a Task Force recommendation and spelling out right down to the minutest detail as to how each was disposed of, how each was dealt with , but surely the Minister could indi cate in broad general terms , because the Task Force report at first sets out a few basicppremises and a few basic observations and the Minister could indicate to us whether he agrees with those general observations and recommendat ions or does not, which ones he has implemented, which ones he proposes to implement and which ones he proposes not to implement.

But I suggest to you , Mr. Chairman, that that is not the type of a response that we will get from this Minister , becau

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-44a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 44a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	06ec5891ac63a548b8a1c133d40ed91977f7c8cb

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