Manitoba Hansard — 12 April 1991 (Sitting 21, 35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-21

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis c. Rocan Speaker VOL. XL No. 21 - 10:00 a.m., FRIDAY, APRIL 12, 1991 Printed by the Office of the Quee ns Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y Thirty-Fifth leglslature Members, Constituencies and Polltlcal Afflllatlon NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kil don an Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

Liberal NOP NOP Liberal Liberal NOP Liberal NOP PC PC PC PC NOP NOP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NOP NOP PC PC NOP Liberal PC NOP PC NOP Liberal NOP PC NOP PC NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP PC NOP PC PC PC PC NOP PC NOP PC PC NOP NOP

821 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA Friday, April 12, 1991 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTI NE PROCEEDI NGS PRESENTI NG PETITIONS Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Pat Fay, Jessie Lyons, Karen Desi lets and other s req uesting the Dep artment of Highways and Transportation to consider assuming responsibili ty for Sturgeon Road north of Four Mile Road and to comp ile a study of accidents and ways to reduce same. INTRO DUCTION OF BILLS Bill 26- The Environment Amend ment Act

(3) Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), that Bill 26, The Environment Amendment Act (3); Loi no 3 modiflant la

Loi sur l'environnement, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, in order to introduce this bill to members, briefly let me indicate that although the bill Is relatively short in numbers of sections, I believe it has great imp ortance. It is a bill which seeks to put under the Class 3 developments the ma ndatory duty to hold public hearings. We have recently been through in this House the Bill 24 debate, and one of the things which came up in that debate was when pub lic hearings should in fact be held.

We have three classes of environmental projects in this province. This is the highest class. If any class deseNes to have mandatory public hearings, Mr. Speaker, it would be this class. With respect to the projects in this province which we are now facing, many of those will be done under the joint assessment procedures, and we will have public hearings. Let us ensure that when we are going to do things in our own province that we do at least the same level of public consultation as we do with the joint assessments.

I am open, let me say at the outset, to parties also including Class 2 developments which, I believe, one can make a very strong case should have mandatory public hearings as well. * (1 005) I seriously look to all members to consider this bill as one whose time has come and should have been in place at the time that the original Environment Act was brought into place. Motion agreed to. Biii 24- The Business Practices Amendm ent Act Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for lnkster (Mr. Lamou reux), that Bill 24, The Busine ss Practices Amendment Act; Loi modi fiant la

Loi sur les pratiques commerciales, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief at this time. This bill will give a lot of protection to the employees and to the consumers. It will give me great pleasure to speak longer at a later date on this bill, and I will hope that the members of this Legislature will support it for the protection of the employees. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this morning 75 visitors from Wisconsin from the Viroqua High School Band. They are under the direction of Elaine Sandul. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this morning.

822 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 12, 1991 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Ha rvey Pollo ck Case Public Inquir y Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, since the charges have been stayed last December, the public, the opposition have been calling for a full public inqu iry into the handling of the alleged Pollock affair.

In the public interest we have always felt, and have been asking the mini ster que stions in this Chamber, to have a full public inqu iry into the handling of the case because, as we know, one of the oldest rules in our justice system is, justice mu st not only be done, but mu st be seen to be done in our system. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mccrae) whether he, today, will announce a full public inqu iry into the handling of this case by all partners in the criminal justice system , as both opposition parties have been calling for since the charges were stayed in December of 1990? Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr . Sp eaker, I thank the honour able Leader of the Opp osition for his question today.

Indeed, I have made it clear for some time to City of Winnipeg officials that the Department of Justice was at the disposal of the civic authorities should assistance be requir ed in dealing with the issues before the council of the City of Winnip eg dealing with the Winnip eg Police Department.

The Executive Policy Committee, after a lengthy meeting yesterday, is asking City Council to ratify their resolution that my office be asked to get involved in the way of a public, or an inqu iry of some kind, certainly an independent inqu iry, and after City Council has, which we expect will happen si nce there were so many members of City Council present at yesterday's meeting, after that resolution has become the official policy of the City of Winnipeg, we will immedia tely thereafter meet with Mayor Norrie to decide on the form and the details of the mandate of an inquir y that will be held into the matter. * (1010 ) Mr.

Doer: The answer the mi nister gave and gives us again today, and to the public today, again troubles us, Mr. Speaker, because for months we have been asking in the public interest that an inquir y be held into this allegation and the way in which the charges have been stayed. For months we have been asking in the public interest that this case have an indep endent and public inquir y. I applauded the Attorney General, the Mini ster of Justice, when he did have an independent public inqu iry dealing with the ticket allegations and the stayings of those charges.

I thought that was a very positive move, because the public interest was served. Mr. Speaker, we were not asked by City Council or the chief of police or the mayor to have the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry , partially due to the handling of the case of J. J. Harper. It was in the public interest to have the public inqu iry.

I would ask the Min ister of Ju stice to change his position from being a Minister of Justice who gets a referral for an inqu iry from a City Council to a Mi nister of Justice who serves all the public interest in terms of the adminis tration of justice and holds a public inquir y on his own in itiative, not on a recommendation of City Hall, on his own initiative because the public interest dictates that a public inquiry must be held. Mr. Mccrae: I supp ose the point could be made that it would have been ni ce if the previous administration had shown a little initiative with regard to the ticketgate matter.

It took the election of a new government and a new Attorney General before anything was done with regard to that matter. The honourable member now seems to be mincing words here. I think I said in my previous answer, Mr. Speaker, that we would be discussing the matter with the mayor after City Council has made its decision, which is the appropriate way to proceed. The public interest is indeed a question to be resolved here, that public interest demands that the admin istration of justice, as the honourable Leader of the Op position has said, be operated well and be seen to be operated well.

I certainly agree with that principle, but in his latest question, the honourable Leader of the Opposition has referred simply to the question of charges being stayed. I would like to tell the honourable Leader of the Opp osition that there is an awful lot more than that involved in this matter, such as issues relating to how the charges were laid in the first place and the circumstances surrounding the arrest of the individual in question. The honourable member I do not think needs to give me any lectures about acting and taking

April 12, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 823 initiative with regard to the administration of justice when we look at the rather shoddy record of the previous admin istration in that regard. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, as the minister knows, the inqu iry that was held following the charges being stayed in the election during that ticket incident was appropriate, and we applauded the government for initiating and taking a leadership role in that inquir y. When we were in office, Mr.

Speaker, we did not wait for the City of Winnipeg Police or the City Council or the RCMP to raise the system ic discrimination that we felt must be investigated in the aboriginal justice system. We initiated and took leadership, and we are not mincing words here. It comes right down to the role of the Minister of Justice.

Is he responsible for the total justice system in Manitoba, and will he take a leadership role when an inqui ry is necessary for the public interest, or will he take a followship position and wait for City Council to deal with this issue and only have a public inquir y if and when City Council recommends it? The question is: Does the Mini ster of Justice see himself as the Mi nister of Justice for the total province and, therefore, will he take leadership to initiate the inq uiry today? 1r (1015 ) Mr. Mccrae: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I have taken a leadership role with regard to the administration of justice in the past. It is my duty to take a leadership role, as I have been taking in the present, and as long as this government is in office, it will be taking leadership on justice admin istration issues for a very long time. For example, we needed leadership to reduce the backlog in Winni peg criminal courts, which the previous government allowed to amount to a 14 -month wai t for a trial. With no concern whatsoever for victims of crime and witnesses, the previous admin istration allowed that to happen. We did something about it.

With regard to the Land Titles services in the city of Winnipeg, the previous government allowed the wait at the Land Titles Office for registration of title for 43 days, which was totally unacceptable. It took the election of a new government to fix that problem without delay, and that happened. With regard to the administration of justice, what the honourable Leader of the Opposition does not know and decides to get involved on the day that we make known our intentions, that is the day the Leader of the Opposition wants to get involved.

Well, I am telling you we are rather well ahead of the Leader of the Opposition and he, rather than being a follower of the city councillor, is a follower of the front pages of the local newspapers. Har vey Pollock Case Public Inqu iry Mr. Dave Chomlak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, far from being a leader, it is obvious that this mini ster is following painfully and slowly in the tracks of the information as it gets out. Now we find out the original officer asked to be taken off the case. The police did approach the Crown re charges.

Two months after their charges were laid, apparently there was not a great deal of investigation in terms of the charges. Again, I repeat my question to the mini ster that I asked yesterday, that I asked on April 3 in this House and that we asked for in December. I request of the min ister: Has he reviewed the Crown's actions with respect to these charges, and will he assure the House that all activities of the Crowns were handled appropriately in this regard? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): It is interesting, Mr. Speaker.

The Leader of the Opposition rises first in the House to ask for something that I have already Indicated is going to happen, and then his Justice critic follows by wanting to have the public inqu iry right here In this House. I do not think that is what honourable mem bers really want to see, but it seems that the honourable member for Kildonan wants to run the inqu iry right here in the House.

The honou rable member asks about the participation of the Crown, which of course has been discussed in the past and certainly will be the subject of discussion again and certainly will also form part of the mandate of an inquiry into the whole Pollock matter. The role played by the Crown in the matter is something that I have commented on previously, but nonetheless that role would also be the subject of an inqu iry. Mr. Chomlak: It only took the minister four months to realize that, Mr. Speaker.

824 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 12, 1991 The city has spent two months reviewing its actions very, very accurately wi th a sp ecial independent report of the police involvement. What has this mi nister done regarding the Crown's actions, and will he review his own activities in this regard or have an independen t party review the activities of the mini ster, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Mccrae: I could say that the que stion was just asked and just answered, but since it was just asked again, I will just answer it again.

I would like to know-the honourable member has referred to a special independ ent report done -(i nterjection)- oh, the honourable mem ber is ref erring to the Re ynolds repor t, who is the Commissioner of the City of Winnipeg Police. He refers to that as a special independen t report. Mr. Speaker, with regard to the inqu iry that we will be proposing, the inqu iry will be indep endent. It will not be someone associated with the Department of Attorney General or someone associated with the Winnip eg Police. With all due respect to Commissioner Reynolds, he is the Commissioner of the City of Winnip eg Police.

I disagree with the honourable member's definition of independent. Mr. Chomlak: My final supplem entary is to the same mini ster. My question is: Why has it taken four months for this minister to take action? Will he announce today and not wait for City Council's request that an independent inquiry will take place that covers all activities, including the Crown, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Mccrae: I suppose if we were counting we could say that question has been asked four or five times already today. I have already indicated, Mr.

Speaker, that there will be an inqu iry, so I do not know what the honourable member means by asking for one repeatedly when it has already been indicated that will happen. The honourable member and his colleagues, and sometimes his colleagues in the Liberal Party, have a tendency to want to operate other levels of government, but we are here in this Legislature to do our jobs and to respect jurisdictions.

I have said right along, and I think I am quite consistent in that, that I have been here to assist the City of Winnip eg and the City of Winnip eg Police when it became apparent to the City of Winnipeg Police that indeed they did need help. It appears they will be approaching our government, and we are here to help. That is what we are here for. * (1 020) Har vey Pollock Case Crown Consul tations Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is also for the Minister of Justice. There has been a fundamental misconception which this mini ster has not acted to correct in the last three and a half months.

That is whether or not the Crown was consulted by the police prior to the laying of the charge. That is a very significant factor in terms of this min ister and this mini ster's department. It is an answer that the members of this Assembly deserve today, Mr. Speaker, not to be held until a public inquiry. What I would like to know from the minister is: Can he tell us what the Crown knew of the allegations prior to the charge being laid? If they knew the name of the victim, what did they do to investigate the veracity of the complaints? Finally, did they recommend for or against the laying of the charge?

That is a question that has been in the public mind -has had the wrong information for the last three and a half months. This min ister has not done a thing to change that misconception. Today he tells us that in fact- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I think I heard the honourable member for St. James say that I have said today that the Crown did have certain knowledge at a certain time. I do not know where he gets that information. Maybe the honourable member can share with us where he got that information, Mr.

Speaker, that the Crown was in possession of certain knowledge at the time that he alleges. Nonetheless, I have made the point that from the Crown's point of view the consultation was certainly insufficient. That being said, and it also being said that there will be an inquiry into the matter, it is probably best to leave these matters to that independent inqu iry to ascertain. I am still interested in knowing just precisely what it is the honourable member is alleging and the source of his information for such an allegation. If

April 12 , 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 825 that source is the pages of the Winnipeg Sun today, then maybe he could tell me that too, because that will have a bearing on the matter. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I do not need to cite a source other than the min ister himself today. The mini ster does not deny- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the minister does not deny consultation. He says it was insufficient. Let him defend that statement.

Will the mini ster tell us what information, what consultation they had prior to the laying of the charge, wh at the y did with it and wh at recommendation they made, if any, as to the laying of a charge? Mr. Mccrae: Well, I think the honourable member is on record as suppor ting an independent inqu iry into the matter. I believe he is on record in that regard. That being the case, I wonder why he wants to join the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) in having the public inqu iry on the floor of this House.

Certainly, from our point of view, the view I have stated is that th e Cr own conducted itsel f appropriately. In the past, those kinds of things have been said too, but it was also this mini ster who asked that the Dewar inqu iry do Its work. The Dewar inqu iry did its work, came down and made some comments about the operation of the Crown office that were extremely critical.

As I said then and I say now, if the Crown office, certainly from the Crown's point of view, is subject to any criticism, we will take that criticism, and we will act on recommendations that are made to im prove operations in the Crown office. Public Inquiry Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, what I was seeking was the mini ster to tell us why he waited three and a half months and let the public misconception stand on this very important issue. Mr. Speaker, finally, for the same min ister: Is he aware of

Section 2 of his own act, The Attorney General's Act of this province, which says that one of his duties is to superintend all matters connected with the administration of justice? If he is, why did he wait three and a half months before acting to independently assess this matter causing nothing but strain and hostili ty between the police, the Crown prosecutor's office, the police admin istration and the accused? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The honourable member for St. James suggests that for a long period of time I have allowed a perception of the Crown office to stand.

Early on, Mr. Speaker, I dealt in a very public way with the involvement of the Crown and gave answers to public media about the involvement of the Crown and the way I characterized that and so on. So what the honourable member is talking about is gibberish with respect to that. With respect to his suggestion that it is my duty to supe rintend all ma tters rela ting to the administration of justice, I accept that. I agree with that, and I am doing exactly what I am su pposed to do under the circumstances, Mr. Speaker. * (1 025) GRIP Program Minimum Acreage Coverage Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday, Crop In sur ance officials met with concerned farmers from southwestern Manitoba to discuss their concerns about GR IP, because they will not be guaranteed adequate coverages. Crop Insurance officials responded to the concerns that were pr esented to them with an incred ibl e counterproposal that would actually have farmers paying for coverage that they would not receive or be eligible for at certain levels of production. The farmers were presented with an outlandish proposal using graphs with coverage gaps in them designed to confuse rather than clarify. I table one of these for the House.

When premiums are taken into consideration, Mr. Speaker, the farmers would actually be no better off under the Crop Insurance proposal than they would have been under the original proposal or the initial one that is in place. I ask the minister now, will he categorically reject this position and this proposal put forward by Crop Insurance officials to these farmers yesterday? Will he put in place instead, Mr. Speaker, a minimum acreage in coverage across this province for various areas of the province to ensure cost of production is returned for farmers?

826 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 12, 1991 Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I really regret that the member puts such misin formation on the record. Since this issue was discussed last week, we have had a federal-provincial meeting where the details of the offer given to those farmers yesterday were discussed and approved by the farmers who were in the meeting from Mani toba and the federal-provincial officials. We gave the proposals to those producers yesterday, Mr. Speaker.

The report I got back from the meeting from two individuals there, they were very pleased with the report, very pleased with the proposal, but it does require the producer to maximize his ability to produce. I had a discussion this morning on the phone from Mr. Ken Sigurdson of the National Farmers Union. He acknowledged that up in the Swan River valley, farmers on the Manitoba side get $15 0 an acre, and the farmers on the Saskatchewan side get $10 0 an acre.

That recognizes the degree of additional su pport available in Manitoba, and the superior managemen t adjustment element of the program gives farmers more than ample opportunity to maximize their level of coverage and be able to get the cost of production. It does put some onus on the farmer to maximize his own ability to produce, but I really regret the member put that kind of misin formation on the record this morning. GRIP Pr ogram Minimum Acreage Coverage Mr.

John Plohman (Dauphin): There was no mis information, and his graphs and his illustration just indicate the discrepancies and inequi ties in this program across this province. I ask the acting First Minister whether he will now, in view of the fact that farmers in The Pas are faced with the same kind of difficulty because their costs of production will not be guar anteed, stand up for his constitue nts and in struct his Mi nister of Agriculture to put in place a minimum acreage coverage based on cost of production, so farmers will not sim ply sign up for this program and lose more money? Hon.

James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, I think we should make it very clear that after a considerable amount of work by the Minis ter of Agriculture, by my office, with the producers of southwes t Mani toba, the Crop In sur ance Corporation, in concert with the Department of Agriculture, with the federal government, have heard the case that was brought forward.

It is my under standing fro m that meeting yesterday that the majority of the producers who were participants in that meeting accepted the proposal that would give the area average on a soil zone to each producer with the ability to add superior management to each and every one of those farms on the price side, not on the crop production side, which was never the intent. Our commi tment, Mr. Speaker, my commitment as a member for that area, I believe has been lived up to. * (1 030) Asslnlbolne River Diversion Government Position Mr.

John PI ohm an (Dauphin): It is nice to have the acting First Mi nister on the record on that, Mr. Speaker. I ask this Depu ty Premier, given the fact that on Wednesday his Min ister of Natural Resources and himself indi cated that there was a division with regard to the Assiniboine River diversion of water to the Boyne River and given the fact that we have the member for Brandon West (Mr. Mccrae) on one side and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Findlay) on the other side, and today we hear that the member for Portage is going to resign and cross the floor over this issue, this government is in total turmoil and confusion over the diversion of water from the Assiniboine River. I ask this acting First Mi nister, the Deputy Premier, just what is this government's position on the diversion of water from the Assiniboine River? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate the member for Dauphin cannot come to this House with a clear accuracy of which matters are taking place within this province. However, Mr.

Speaker, anyone who would be so wrong-headed as to build a $30-million bridge north of Selkirk without a road to either one, one would not be surprised as to what this member brings to the Legislature. Mr. Speaker, let me deal specifically with the water issue. It has been clearly indicated- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

April 12, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 827 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, let me make it clear that our caucus clearly represents the areas of which we are talking about for water development, the southern area being the Pembina triangle area, which put a report forward which was discussed by my colleague the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) and other colleagues.

We make it very clear that before any action is taken that the normal, proper envi ronmen tal process is gone through, that consideration for Br andon, which dr aws its water from the Assiniboine River, the city of Portage la Prairie, which draws its water from the Assiniboine River, will be fully taken into consideration before any action is taken, before any water is withdrawn from the Assiniboine River. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, -(interjection)-the Gimli bridge you mean, yes. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Asslnlbolne River Diversion Impact Sports Fishing Mr.

Gregory Dewar {Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my que stion is for the Minister of Environment. The Red River sport fishing is at risk due to the proposed weir to be built in the Ste. Agathe area as part of the Pembina valley water diversion, an action that will raise the water levels south of the dam even higher than the split in the PC caucus. A study by Professor Ken Stewart at the Un iversity of Manitoba sugge sts catfish and sauger are in particular jeopardy. What actions has this min ister taken to protect the sport fishing in the Red River area? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Depu ty Premier already accurately answered tha t qu est io n. Any undertaking of this nature will be clearly placed in the context of proper licensing, proper planning and proper evaluation of any im pacts or concerns that could be raised. Let us not assume that any actions that are taken in order to produce better opportunities for parts of this province are necessarily going to be negative. Tile concerns that are raised are legi timate concerns and will be dealt with.

Let us not assume, several years before any possibi lity of action, that everything that is being put on the table is necessarily negative for the future of this province. Environmental Impact Studies Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): To the same mini ster, what impa ct studies has this min ister done on the threat to the Red River by this project? Can he table those studies in the House today? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, I recognize that it is in the best interest of the opposition to raise fears and cast a shadow across the legitimate aspirations of a large part of this province, including the city of Brandon, the city of Portage la Prairie, and those who access water across this province. We are not rushing headlong and blindly into projects. We are looking at conceptualizing the proponents of this water management scheme, are conceptualizing how they can get access to additional water. All of those concepts will be examined. City of Winnipeg Sewage Disposal Mr.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): My final question is: When will the mini ster tighten up regulations concerning the city of Winni peg and its discharge of sewage into the Red and the Assiniboine Rivers? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, the member, I think, probably knows full well that process is well underway today. Ministers' Car Allowances Freeze Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Mini ster of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme).

In this tough economic condition under which we are all living, it is important, I think, for all of us to recognize we should make savings wherever those savings are possible. Can the min ister tell the House today if he has, therefore, put a freeze on the pur chase of all personally driven vehicles in the province of Manitoba to include Leaders, cabinet ministers, deputy ministers and anyone else in the province who drives a personal vehicle?

828 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 12, 1991 Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, the short answer to the question is yes. Certainly in the min isterial fleet there were suppo sed to be two cars that were changed this year, and there has been a freeze put on those exchanges. Mrs. Carstalrs: I thank the mi nister for that reply. Women in Governm ent Report Release Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): I have a question to the min ister responsible for the Civil Service.

Can the mini ster tell the House today why he has not tabled in this House the report on Women in Government, which was undertaken by his government and promised for full distribution when the report was completed? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for The Civil Service Act): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to answer that que stion from the Leader of the Liberal Party. I have worked with the steering committee and the managemen t group upon becoming Mini ster responsible for the Civil Service. The final report was provided to me at the beginning of March.

I met with the steering committee and asked them to review the report and present to me by the Easter weekend a letter of recommendations or any comments that they had. I am now in the process of forwarding that letter and report to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) , who initially requested the report, at which point it will become public. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, can the min ister tell us when he anticipates he will table this report in the House, in that the Premier indicated at the public meeting at which he suggested that this report would be conducted that it would be tabled as soon as the government received it? Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, I would hope that it would be within the next few weeks. Gas Stations Octane Level Regu lations Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is to the Mini ster of Co-oper ative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs. It concerns the octane levels in gasoline in this province.

The oil companies have reduced the octane levels on regular gas from 89 to 87. This has resulted in sub stantial savings to the oil companies but losses to consumers whose car engines knock, causing them needless repairs. The previous min ister was moni toring this situation, but I would like to know is: What does the current min ister intend to do about the problem? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my honourable friend for the question about the octane levels.

There have been many sug gestions put forward concerning octane levels and whether or not they should have those levels put upon the pumps at the gas stations. I was in commun ication yesterday with the Consumers' Association. The topic was raised for di scus sion. I have taken the matter un der advisement, and should I have anything to report I will be pleased to bring it back to the House for the members' information right away. * (1 040) Mr. Maloway: Mr. Speaker, the minister should be aware that many Manitoba gas stations do not have three pumps.

In fact, they only have the two, and the attendants are not aware of which octane level is on the cheaper pump. As a result, consumers never know whether they are buying the 87 or 89 octane levels. Will the min ister check the provisions of The Business Practices Act to see if they might apply in this case? Mrs. Mcintosh: Again my thanks for the question, because it is an issue that does concern Manitobans and hence it concerns me. The Business Practices Act, as you know, is currently in the process of being prepared to proclamation.

Yes, I would be most pleased to review all of the issues concerning items that are of concern to consumers as they relate to The Business Practices Act, which we hope to have proclaimed sometime in July. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Speaker, well, the minister did not answer the question. My question concerned gas stations that have only two pumps and not three pumps. If the attendants do not know what the octane level is on the cheaper pump, then how is the customer to know what he or she is buying? Would the min ister give us a timetable as to when she intends to introduce regulations to require the

April 12, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 829 provision for the posting of the octane levels on the gas pumps in Ma nitoba? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Speaker, this issue is being raised for the first time in the House. As I indicated to the member earlier, I have been in discussion with the Consumers' Association on this topic. When and if I have anything to share with the House, I will be pleased to bring it forward at that time. Care erStart Statistics Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a que stion for the Min ister of Family Services, Mr. Speaker.

Youth unem ployment in Mani toba is presently running at 17 .1 percent, which is su bstantially higher than last year at this time. For young men under 25 it is now ranging at 22. 7 percent. Thousands of young students and young people are about to enter the labour market this summer looking for work. Will the Minister of Family Services now tell this House what kind of a program of summer job creation there will be this summer? In other words, what kind of a CareerStart program will there be? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, the member of course has raised this ques tion before, and I am sure he is aware that the CareerStart applications have been mailed out at this time and are in the hands of people who have requested them. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, I thank the min ister for that statement. Can the minister tell us how this year's program will compare with last year's program. How many job positions will be subsidized? Will nonprofit groups be eligible again as employers as well as the small busine ss sector? Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Sp eaker, we are very pleased in these difficult economic times.

I am sure all memb ers are concerned with the prospect of jobs for students. We have many students at the university level who have finished classes as of today and are writing exams and will be applying for jobs, and we are pleased that we have been able to maintain a program in CareerStart. As for further details, the member will have to be patient, as I know he always is, and await the information brought out in the budget next week. Youth Employment Northern Ma nitoba Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minis ter could also advise us about the state of the northern youth empl oyment programs. There is normally a special program for northern young people. Will the governmen t be funding summ er employment programs for the students in the North? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the member has over the last few weeks been referencing documents and probing into the budget, and I would just encourage him to continue his patience. We will be able to discuss this further after the budget is tabled and we get into the Estimates process.

Swan Lake Fishing Industry Government Assistance Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. I have written repeatedly to the min ister, as have fishermen written, raising the concerns of the fishermen in my constituency. One sp ecific concern is the 22 fishermen on Swan Lake. These fishermen have had very little catch and as a result have not been able to make contributions to U.I. and will not be able to collect anything this year.

Will the min ister provide emergency assistance to these fishermen, or are they going to have to go on welfare, or are they going to have to hire a bus to come to Winnipeg to meet with the min ister? Hon . Harry Enns (M i ni ster of Natural Resources): I will take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker. Ms. Wowchuk: Well, that shows the interest in Swan Lake. Lake Wlnnlpegosls Fish Stock Levels Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, my second question is to the same mini ster, dealing with Lake Winnipegosis. This mi nister has said he was concerned about the lake.

Can he tell me why, if he is concerned about Lake Winnipegosis, he is stocking 10 times

830 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 12 , 19 91 as much fish into Lake Manitoba when the stock in Lake Winnipegosis is going down considerably and the fishermen are trying to make a living there? Hon. Harry Enns (M in ist er of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I am aware that the department stocks Manitoba lakes with many millions of fries. I invite the honourable member to ask me those questions during the examination of my Estimates. I cannot give her the kind of specific information that she requests at this time. Fishing Industry Government Support Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr.

Speaker, to the same mi nister: Given that Natural Resou rces is facing massive layoffs, how can fishermen and other people, some of the poorest people in the province and some -(interjection) memb ers from the opposite side seem to think this is a laughing matter. Some of these people who rely on natural resources have no service from this minister. How can the people rely on this government when they will not answer the questions that these people want answers to? Hon. Harry Enns (Minis te r of Natural Resources): Mr.

Speaker, I am well aware that many, many Mani tobans rely on the natural resources of this great province. I would hope that I hear that kind of support from member s opposite when we talk about Repap and the 10 ,000 jobs that the forest industry provides to this ind ustry. I would hope that the members opposite would examine seriously some of the very serious questions that we ask as to how we use our water resources from time to time, as to whether or not they are properly being allocated. Again, I invite the honourable member to examine the Estimates of my de part ment.

I have to acknowledge that my department is being called upon, as other departments are, to contribute to the problems of controlling our deficit financing in this province. I am satisfied the services that this department, which I have the privilege of leading at this time, will continue to carry out the functions that the honour able member alludes to that are appreciated and are of tremendous imp ortance to so many Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonp olitlcal Stateme nts Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for The Mapl es have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow, on April 13 , the Sikh communi ty throughout Manitoba and throughout this nation will be celebrating the Festival of Vaisakhi.

It was on April 13 , 16 99, by Tenth Gur u Gobingsingh Khala Panth was created by choosing five disciples of tested courage and admini stered them with holy water, prepared according to the set religious proceeding, and blessed these five individuals to guide their lives on the basic principles of sacrifice, responsibUity, accountability, acting for the good of others, truth, beauty and goodness. Mr. Speaker, it was that day the common surname "Singh" and the five "K" symbols of the religion were given by Tenth Guru.

I am sure all of my fellow members in this House will join with me in wishing success to the Sikh community during their celebration of Vaisakhi. Let us pr ay for the harmony, pea ce, and prosperity for all people of the world. I would like also to extend the invitation to all the members to attend the various temples and celebrations this weekend. Thank you. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, could I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Em erson have leave to ma ke a nonpoli tical statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Penner: Mr.

Sp eaker, it gi ves me great pleasure to congratulate the Winkler Flyers today on winning the Mani toba Ju nior Hockey League championship. I understand that they are going to be playing Saska tche wan, who ever might win out of Saskatchewan. I think the Canadian series is next, but I think it is a great accomplishment for the town and the hockey team that was formed in Winkler not too many years ago.

April 12, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 831 I also want to give credit to a young fellow whom I know very well who coaches the Winkler team. He happens to be a former neighbour and a constituent of mine, and I think the Winkler community, as all of Manitoba, is today proud. We are proud of the Winkler community for having initiated the forming of that club and congratulate both the town and the team for winning the title. Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Point Douglas have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Agreed. Mr. Hlckes: I also would like to take th is opportunity to congratulate the Winkler Flyers for winning the Ma nitoba Ju nior Hockey League Championship, and I am extremely proud to stand here to do that today, as I and some of my colleagues have been quite involved in hockey in previous years.

The reason I would really like to commend the Winkler Flyers is they have a couple of aboriginal youths on their team who have contributed to winning this championship, and one of the individuals who was with the team for a short period last year was from northern Manitoba, Reggie Spence. They had nothing but praise for the community of Winkler, the association, the hockey team and the players who were associated with it. They praised everyone in the community. So, at this moment, I am glad to take the opportunity to congratulate the team and the association from Winkler. * (1 050) ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon.

Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to call the bills in the following order: 5, 6, 8 and 12. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 5- The Mental Health Amendment Act Mr. Spea ker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), Bill 5, The Mental Health Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la sante rnentale, standing in the name of the honour able member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis), stand? An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave that this matter remain standing? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Agreed. Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan Ri ver): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to speak on this bill? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Just for clarification, I remind all honourable members that leave is needed so that the bill can remain standing in the name of the honourable member in which it is printed. The honourable member does not require leave to speak. Ms.

Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to speak today on Bi ll 5, The Mental Health Amendment Act, to put some of my concerns and some of the concerns that my constituents have raised on this bill and the concerns with mental health and the way it is being dealt with, and what we are hearing in the rural community. We all know that mental health is a very serious problem and one that must be addressed very seriously. There are many people who are suffering from mental illness throughout the province. Mr.

Speaker, I realize this is an im portant area of health care and one that has been neglected for many, many years by all parts of society. People with mental illness are seriously misunder stood in many cases and we hear of many stories of people who have suffered from mental illness, have been locked up in institutes for years and years and not had the opportunity to live productive lives. Those things have changed to a degree over the years, but there is much that we must do. Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the fact that the mi nister has brought this bill forward at this time and that there is action being taken on the mental health issue, but I regret that the min ister has not taken the time to consult with groups in the Mental Health Association to the degree that is necessary. It is very im portant that those people who work at the grass roots have the opportunity to raise their concerns and have their input into the drawing up of this bill, because we know that is those people at tile grass roots who best understand what is going on in the community and what is needed.

832 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 12, 1991 (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) I would also just like to talk specifically about the delivery of mental health in the rural area, how it is being delivered and some of the issues that rural Manitobans have raised with me. These are, as I say, not only my views but the views of many people in my constituency. Yesterday, the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) criticized my colleague the member for Dauphin (Mr .

Plohman) for indicating that he had consulted but not been prep ared to name the people that he had consulted with, and implied that he had not really consulted. Well, Madam Depu ty Speaker, I would like to put on the record some of the people that we did consult with. In fact the member for Dauphin and myself were both at a meeting in Gilbert Plains, and we were meeting with the Keystone Agricultural Producers. The members across the way should be quite familiar with the Keystone Agricultural Producers. I am surprised that they do not know about their concerns.

These people in Gilber t Plains and from the Parkland have raised some serious concerns. The concern they have raised is the fact that mental health is being centralized rather than decentralized. Now, this government has taken the position over the last couple of years that they are prepared to decentralize and provide services and jobs in the rural community. I see nothing wrong with that. We need supp orts in the rural community. That is not what is happening with mental health. Keystone Agricultural Producers have raised this concern that rather than bringing services out, we are having services cut.

They raised tremendous concerns about the need for psychiatric services throughout the province and particularly in the Parkland area. It is very difficult, and the members across the way should understand this issue since most of them come from the rural area and keep talking about the rural area. They should understand that it is very im portant to have these services out in the rural area rather than having to drive to Winnip eg, in many cases 300 mi les. When services are needed immedia tely, it is very difficult to get into the city. There is also the expense.

We all know where the rural economy is right now, and people can very little afford to travel into Winnip eg for these services. People who are under emotional stress, such as those people who are needing these services, also need to be with their families. They need the suppo rts of their families rather than being isolated in the city where they cannot have that sup port. That quite often happens, because when they are brought into the city for treatment and services the rest of the family cannot afford to come along or they have to stay there to keep their jobs.

You ma y ask, Madam Depu ty Sp eaker, why-again another why-would Keystone raise this issue. It is quite simple. The rural community is facing a real crisis. There is loss of land, bankruptcies. Along with these kind of conditions comes a lot of stress. Along with stress, people have to have treatment. That treatment is not there. That is what we are concerned about. The mem bers across the way were yesterday complaining about us not asking questions on the rural community, and myself in particular. I read Hansard and I see that they are criticizing me for not asking que stions.

I would ask the memb ers to maybe check through Hansard and see whether I have not asked questions. Granted, the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) has asked the questions on agriculture, and so he should. He is our official critic for Agriculture, but the biggest part of your-the comments that are coming from across the way that we are not asking qu estions in agriculture is the fact that we are not getting answers. We are not getting any answers on agriculture. Madam De puty Speaker, agriculture is in a serious crisis, and as a result of this, there is a need for services for the rural people.

These people are under stress, and they need services to be there for them, rather than having everything centralized in Winnipeg and in Brandon. In fact Brandon is being cut down, having everything centralized. There is a need and that need is not being addressed completely in this bill. Madam Deputy Speaker, there are other people who have raised concerns of this bill and that the min ister has not consulted with them. The other group that has raised this concern with me, and I have letters here from them, is the Association for Communi ty Living in Swan Ri ver. They are

April 12, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 833 concerned that the bill does not meet the needs of the people in the area and also that things are being centralized. They are concerned about the rights of the patient, whether they are being suppor ted and whether this bill will address the needs of these patients. * (1 100) I would again encourage the mini ster to take the time to meet with these people and hear their concerns.

This bill has taken a long time coming, and rather than pushing it through without listening to the people, I would encourage him to listen further and hear what they have to say on it and make impr ovements to it so that all needs are met. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is another group that has also raised their concerns that I would like to put on the record and it is the people from Swan River who belong to the Canadian Mental Health Association. These people met with the Mini ster of Health (Mr. Orchard), and he had indicated to them that services would be decentralized. Last fall he met with them.

Now, these are people who have had serious problems within their families. In fact, two of the people, one that I know in particular, his son committed suicide because he could not deal with the emotional problems that he was having. He was back and forth into Winnipeg. The services could not be provided for him, and the family feels very strongly that, had these services been out in the rural area and had there been a network of sup port in the rural area, their son might have had a chance. This is not the only person.

There are many people who are suffering from mental illnesses in the rural community who need su pport. The concern of these people from Swan River is that they met with the min ister last year, and he had indicated that there would be sup ports being put forward. Instead, what did they find out, that everything was being changed around. I would like to quote- this is the information they received: We received information from the Health Services Commission that the Health Services Commission has approved a staffing increase for the Health Sciences Centre of 160 new positions.

We further understand that the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission has given approval to expand a number of psychiatric beds in the Mi sericordia Hospital from 21 to 40. Madam Dep uty Speaker, that is a complete reversal of what the mini ster had indicated to the people from Swan River. He had indicated that there would be supp ort, that there would be services in the rural community, and he has backed down on this.

It would be only fair that the min ister again consult with these people and hear what they have to say and let them know why he has changed his mind so dramatically, especially in light of the fact that this min ister and this government ran in the last election on decentralization, on all of the things that they were going to do for rural Manitoba, and to do a complete flip on mental health the way that they have done, not coming through with the services that they had promised that they would come through with.

Madam Depu ty Speaker, there are other areas that I would like to touch on that are causing stress in rural Manitoba and reasons for the services to be out there. In Question Period, I raised the question of the fishermen and the difficulties they are facing. These people need supports. -(interjection)- Yes, and the people who are in the educational field as well are under a tremendous amount of stress because the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) is not offering the support that he should be to the people. Madam Deputy Speaker, back to the fishermen.

Some of the poorest people in this province are being neglected, and statistics show that there are many problems with mental illness, problems with alcoholism, and problems with suicide, because these people cannot afford to make a living. This government chooses to make fun of these people, to make fun of the way they make a living, and not to address their concerns seriously. -(interjection) That is right. You make fun of them; you have not addressed the concerns of these people. Again, the people are being neglected in the area of mental health; there is a need for workers out there.

Madam Depu ty Speaker, the Canadian Mental Health Association has indicated that there is a need for more consu ltation and that the area of centralization and keeping people in hospitals is not the way to go, that people should be kept in their homes, in their own communities, and the su pport should be out there. Granted, there is some need for people to be put into institutions in very severe cases, but that is not always the case. Statistics show that there is a much higher success rate with patients when they can be kept in their own

834 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 12, 1991 community, and when they can be closer to their family. We have to move away from keeping people in institutes and keep them in their homes. That does not seem to be the plan of this government as we see with the move to put more beds in Winnipeg and more institutes. I urge this government to look seriously at this matter; I urge them to consult more with people and listen to the people.

If it means meeting with people, the Keystone Agricultural Producers, the Mental Health Association right across the province, there are many groups of people who want to have input. Yesterday the Mi nister of Health (Mr. Orchard) indicated that there was a committee process to deal with this. Yes, there is the committee process, but it is also very im portant to get out and listen to the people and what they have to say on this particular issue, and that is not happening. Madam Depu ty Speaker, it is very important that the treatment for the mentally disabled be handled at a communi ty base.

Over the years, many individuals in our communi ty have been put in institutes, incarcerated, shut behind closed doors and forgotten. I believe that this is absolutely deplorable. It is not the way to treat human beings, any hum an being. I mentioned at the beginning horror stories, stories of people who have been locked up in institutes for years and years and years, never having a chance to live a productive life. I, personally, have a neighbour who went through that situation and for years just stayed in Brandon and had no opportuni ty.

He is now back in the community, but never had the opportunity to have any training. We see the problems with that situation. On the other hand, I know of a young man who happens to be a relative of mine who is being treated differently, was not institutionalized, and is now working in a group home and coping very well. So there are prime examples of people who have been treated different ways, and we see the imp ortance of the community-based treatment. With that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to close and just encourage the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard), who is not here, to consult with the people, and encourage the members across the way to think about some of the comments that they have made about this not being necessary to have consultation. As I had indicated, there are serious problems in the rural communi ty, problems throughout the province, not only in the city. We have to have those supports.

It is very important that the members who are in government right now take the time to listen to the people and, before they make any decisions on this act and impl ement it, that they listen to the people, because there are many people who are concerned about this act being impl emented without the ch anges that they feel are very necessary. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): In our society, we assume that people can be categorized and be placed in specific stereotypes. So one of the things we do is to say that here is a group of people who are normal, and they should be treated according to some rule.

Then we say other people are not normal, and there are other rules that will apply to them. Our world, then, is a world of diversity. How do we achieve the fullest equ ality in a situation where so many different categories are being observed and different rules are being applied? Does it mean that we should treat everybody, no matter how dissimilar they are, in the same way? Are people who are categorically different to be treated differently? * (1 1 10) Who determines what the categories are? Which category is the norm?

In our own eyes the norm is what pleases us and what is in accordance with our own value system. Anything that is different we normally tend to consider as abnormal and should be treated differently. When we look closely into things around us what we will find is that it is simp ly a matter of perception. Differences are not inherent in people. The same aspect of reality seen by two different people who look through different looking glasses will appear different.

For example, if we are at the same table at a dinner and we see a glass with water which is just halfway in the glass, one person will see it as half full, another person will see it as half empty. They are looking at the same aspect of reality, but they have a different category to apply to the same objective reality.

April 12, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 835 What we are saying is that we cannot say who in our society are truly the normal people. Every person has his own idiosyncrasies, has his own weaknesses, has his own pattern or style of life. Another person may have a different set of habits, different set of modes or styles of living. We cannot say who is normal and who is abnormal, yet we try to apply different legal categories and ascribe to these different situations different rules. So we generate certain inequalities among human beings. For example, we respect the rights of individuals.

Shall we treat the pregnant worker in a different way than a male, who can never be pregnant? What is the norm? If the norm is the male worker, then the pregnant woman will be entitled to certain rights that should not be accorded to a male worker, like maternity leave, but if we treat the female worker as the norm, then we may have a claim. As a father who never will get to be in the family way himself, physically, he may have a claim to paternity leave. So it depends on what is the norm and what is the devia tion fro m the norm.

What we see as differences in our social life are in fact our perception of patterns of relationship among people and this in effect determines the distribution of power and dependency in our society. When we try to say that some people are mentally deficient and therefore can be deprived of their right of choice or can be incarcerated against their will, are we being good intentioned and well-meaning in our zeal to protect the Interests of these people or in effect hurting them?

When we see the blacks as different from the whites and assume that white is the norm and that being black is a deviation from the norm and restrict some of their freedom, such as in South Africa, are we not hurting people as human beings because they are different? It is our value that determines our perception and our perception determines the difference and in actual fact there may be no difference at all. They are based on certain hidden assumptions by which we started our reasoning in categorizing people and putting them in legal categories and according them certain rights, privileges, disabilities.

What we are doing then should be subject to scrutiny and analysis because by looking into ourselves, into our own introspection, we may see that what we actually see is not there. Usually what you are looking for is what you see and oftentimes in human experience we give meaning and significance to the uncommon thing that we see. For example, if I draw a big square in a flip chart and put a dot in the middle, and I ask you what is in there, you will obviously talk about the dot because that is the uncommon thing. You failed to see the big square surrounding the dot.

It is said that a fish is not aware that the fish is living in an environment of water until you take the fish out of the water and then the creature realizes that he had been ignoring all the time that it was capable of staying alive because he is staying in his on environment. We focus on people who behave differently. We categorize them as abnormal. We put them and incarcerate them; we deprive them of their liberty, of their rights as human beings, of their choices. Then we feel good about it because we are well-meaning and well-intentioned, but we may not be aware of what we are doing.

We are, in effect, trying to harm rather than promote the cause of the liberty of some human being. If a person has been placed under some order from some court on the complaint of a relative, how do we know the actual truth? How do we know what motivations are behind the actions taken by the relative?

It might be that the person who requests the order is interested in some kind of control of her property rights, and because the person who is being incarcerated had very limi ted ability to know his or her rights, that person may unnecessarily be placed under constraint, depriving the person of natural human liberty.

The greatest danger to the rights and li berties of hu man being s are the enc roachm ents of men of zeal who are well-meaning, who are well-intentioned, but who are without understanding. * (1 120) We usually define the normal in terms of what is familia r with us and wha tever is the prevailing practice around us, the accepted way of doing things. Those are the things that we consider normal.

The nonconformist who deviates from the rules commonly accepted, we consider him abnormal and ought to be subjected to stricter rules than we are subject to, but the fact of the matter is that we cannot say who is the normal person. There are no objective rules, other than those that are conventionally practised and established around us. Is it normal to wake up and drink a cup of coffee every day of your life and never eat breakfast; then

836 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 12, 1991 go to work, and then about lunch time take your lunch-ever y day you do not eat anything except a cup of coffee, is that the normal thing? Many people in our society are living exactly the same style of life every day. They have no time to eat breakfast. They grab a cup of coffee, get dressed up and go to work.

It seems to me that the normal thing for a sensible person is to wake up earlier, eat a full meal, the best they could eat in the morning because he has the whole day to burn all the calories-he will need all the calories-then at lunch maybe eat a little less because he only has half a day to finish the rest of the calories, then at night maybe take an apple or a glass of juice and nothing else. Why? Because he will be sleeping and resting, and he will have no activity. If there is to be a pattern which is normal, it should be an inverted pyramid.

The heaviest meal in the morning, less meal at lunch and almost nothing in the evening. But what do we do? We do not eat in the morning, almost just a cup of coffee, a glass of milk. Then, at lunch, we eat a little more, preparing for dinner. Then at dinnertime we cook steak, the heaviest, and with dessert, pie. What do we do afterward? We just lie down and sleep. In the meantime, all these calories are in our system. We are doing this every day. Can you imagine how it accumulates all the days of our lives?

How many days are there in a year?-365 days accumula ting there, all these un necessar y, unwanted calories in our system. So what do we ge t? Lots of problems. We get high blood pressure. What else do we get? Obesity because of our habits. Now which one is the normal thing? The normal thing is the abnormal, the unusual: when you eat the heaviest of meal in the morning, a little less at lunch, and almost nothing in the evening. That is the one that is good for us physically and spir itually. Yet we persist in doing the conventional because of habit; we persis t and then we suffer the consequences.

May it not be that in our system of trying to protect the rights of those whom we consider to be mentally sick people, in our zeal, in our intention to protect the rights, we may be trespassing and, in fact, harming the rights of individual human beings? So we do not know. What we see is what we want to see. What we are looking for is what we find. Those things that we do not like, things we do not care for are the things we do not understand. In our own app reciation of things, we are not considering things in context.

We have to look at hu man rela tionship s of in depe ndence and dependency according to the context in things. There was once a group of children who were playing together and they asked an adult person to play along with them, and the children asked the adult, saying, you lie down and we will cover you with blankets, and then you remove from yourself anything that you do not need. So they cover the adult person with a blanket, the little children, and usually what the person will do is he will remove his shirt or his wallet and then take it out without at any time ever thinking of just taking off the blanket.

It is just the blanket that he does not see. It is the biggest thing that he does not need and yet he forgets those things. In human life we only see what we want to see. We filter the reality that we perceive according to our looking glass. If we are a narrow-minded person and very biased in our outlook, we will not see the obvious. We only see what we want to criticize especially in our relationship with other people. We focus on those things that are very uncommon ignoring the common things around us; therefore, in our appreciation of reality around us, there is always a filtering process that is going on.

We look at things according to our own perception and we define our perception, our way of looking out into the world, our looking glass as it were, according to the colour-it is usually a coloured glass. It may be pink because we look through a glass that is pink and so we see everything that is pink around us when in fact it is not so. Maybe what we consider as people that need to be deprived of their freedom because they are queer in their behaviour, maybe these are the normal people, because the normal thing in life is to be uniquely different. You do not see any individual exactly like another individual.

Every one of us is unique in much the same way that all the little snowflakes dur ing wintertime-you do not see two snowflakes the same. They are all different. The same thing with human beings, we are all different. You might hear about people who are called Siamese twins or identical twins. They say they are identical. I heard it is not true because they are not identical, even if

April 12, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 837 the other people may say they look the same, I cannot distinguish one from the other. When you really understand the situation, you can see that one of the pair is not exactly the other one. They are not really identical. Each one is unique. The uniqueness of human beings, I think, is a characteristic that we should respect. We should give to every person the kind of recognition and respect that everybody deserves.

We cannot just promu lgate rules and then categorize people by fiat and say that you are in this category and therefore you will be subject to these rules. When we try to say this person is mentally deficient and therefore should be incarcerated against his or her will, we might be harming another human being without knowing it despite our well intentions, despite our desire to help. I question this because in our life it is very difficult to make a judgmen t as to what is proper and what is not, as to what is good and what is bad.

Sometimes even the worst situation, even in the worst set of circumstances, you can always find some advantages or benefits that are coming from it. For example, during the last tornado-there was a tornado in Edmonton, if you remember-you could say it destroyed lives, property, security of people. You will say the tornado is a bad thing. * (1 130) Now, what good can we extract from that experience? Is there anything good at all from the disaster?

Well, if there is anything that we can find that is good, it is the fact that because of this disaster, we people who normally are competing against one another and after one another are now co-operating and learning that their mutu al existence, their mutual security and common survival depend on co-operation much better than competition. We always compete. We say, competition is best in life because it brings the best. The excellent one excels; the good ones survive; the weak ones are exterminated in our competition. But it is not always so.

If the norm, the rule is the survival of the strongest, and the strongest defines the rules of the game in life, then there is no chance at all for the weak, because they have been subjected to the rules that are defined by the strong. So are the normal people, the so-called normal people in society, when they define the rule that justifies the action of getting rid in society of those who are not so normal in their eyes. Then it might be that we are indeed encroaching upon the basic integrity of the human person, and because it can be done in a legal way, it does not mean that it is always the right way.

We should be very, very cautious and careful, even in the thought of depriving any particular individual person of the basic rights and liberties of a human being. No matter how different the person may be, no matter how queer he may be in his behaviour, it is not always the case that we are right when we deprive the individual of his basic liberty. The same thing with our so-called mental patient. They are different. They behave differently. They are queer. It does not mean that they necessarily do not know what they are doing. We cannot get into a person's mind or thoughts.

We only see things according to our own personal perspective. We fail to appreciate and see things from the persp ective of the other person. There was a mother, for example, who had a little child, a two-year-old, three-year-old child. She enjoys shopping so she goes to the shopping centre and she drags this little kid and she looks at all the things to see there in the display, in various stores with lots of people in there. The little child had been crying all along, and the mother gets angry and says, what is the matter with you, what is the matter with you?

She had been dragging the little child on her shopping spree and the little child had been crying and complaining and, finally, she said, what is the matter with you? So she stooped down and she saw that the shoelaces of the boy were untied and so she tied the shoelaces and, when she was stooping down, she could see things from the perspective of the little child. All the child can see are feet of people, shoes, legs of tables, and things that are at the level of the child. So shopping is no enjoyment for a child at all.

So the mother, repentant, almost cried when she thought at the persp ective of her little boy, and she appreciated now why the boy had been crying and had been complaining when it is so nice to do shopping, because she does not appr eciate it from the persp ective of the little child. Maybe we feel self-righteous, maybe we feel justified, maybe we feel we are doing what is good when we incarcerate people who are queer; but, if we look at things from our own perspective, we will never appreciate it because we cannot place

838 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 12, 1991 ourselves in the shoes of those people and know how they see things around themselves. They say, for example, that ignorance is bliss. If you are not so sophisticated about life and you do not appreciate the various difficulties that could fall upon a person's life, maybe that is a simpler kind of existence. Those people who are so sophisticated they know everything that is going on around them, they see every kind of problem around them, they have lots of pressure in their lives.

Now, which one is the best style of life, the simpler one or the more complicated one? It depends on what we are looking for in life. Those people who are looking for material success and advancement, they are all the time subject to tremendous pressu res and they unduly suffer and maybe they find life too difficult for them. Sometimes they quit and they do such things that we never can comprehend, for example, taking their own lives, committing suicide because you can no longer prove equal to the problems and the difficulties around you.

Those people are simple in their appreciation of things and not so bothered by the difficult problems and we see them as people who are irresponsible, maybe in our own estimation, and yet they may lead the simpler style of life and that is to them what life is all about. As far as they can see, as far as their own perception can carry them, that is what existence is and so we have no right to say and define for them what should be or how they should behave.

Now in our relationship with one another because of this difficulty of defining what is normal, we cannot all the time claim to have the super ior insight to define what is correct, what is right, what is proper. Sometimes our own style of behaving will control the behaviour of others, will direct or define how others will react to us. For example, if you are a very good-natured person and every time you are being teased you just smile, they tease you all the more, and the more you smile, they think that you like being teased.

So they go on behaving the way they like to, and they misin terpret you as a good-natured person. On the other hand, when someone calls you on the phone and starts talking about irrelevant things without going to U1e point of why they are cailing you, and then you say, what is it that you are calling me for, and you indirectly are telling the person, go to the point, tell me what you want and do not waste my time. * (1 140) Sometimes in our politeness to one another, we fail to draw the line and they misin terpret the situation. Then we encourage them to do the very thing that we do not like.

In this sense, it is very difficult indeed to define what is normal. Being in a difficulty to define what is normal by definition, we cannot also define what is abnormal. What I am saying is that in our demarcation, in our drawing of the line between the so-called sane and insane kind of behaviour, there is no definite rule. It depends on our own appreciation of things. Everything should be looked at in context in terms of patterns of social relationships, in terms of social perception, and in terms of distribution of power in society. Usually the powerful segment in society are the ones who are self-appointed.

They define what is proper and normal behaviour, and all the rest of society becomes subject to this set of rules that they lay down. Being not disinterested, they obviously define things in a certain style or manner that are favourable to their own interest. So we cannot but be very cautious and careful. We should be very careful in defining the set of conditions and terms under which we may deprive people of their choice, under which we may deprive human beings of their property, of their rights to manage their own property.

We should indeed be very cautious and be very, very careful and very, very strict about the rules by which we can deprive any human being of his right of choice, of freedom, of liberty. In this end, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think on the basis of principle to the extent that this bill is depriving human beings of their sphere of natural liberty. To that extent, it is an encroachment of the right of a person, of a human being.

As far as we know it in our society, the integrity of the human being is the highest value in our scale of priority, and the rules of society, the rules of the community, should yield to that respect for the integrity of the human being. I thank you. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Mr. Speaker: As previously agreed, this matter will remain standing in the name of the honourable member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis).

April 12, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 839 Bill 6- The Mines and Mi nerals and Consequential Amendmen ts Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Mi nister of Energy and Mi nes (Mr. Neufeld), Bill 6, The Mi nes and Mi nerals and Consequential Amendm ents Act;

Loi sur les mines et les mi neraux et modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives, standing in the name of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). Is there leave that this matter remain standing? Hon. Darren Praznlk (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I think there might be leave that it remain standing in the name of the member for Point Douglas. I believe the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey) would like to address it still if there is leave. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

As I indicated earlier this morning, leave is needed to have the matter remain standing in the name of the honourable member in which it shows up in the Order Paper. Leave is not required for the honourable member to speak. Therefore, I believe there is leave to have the matter remai n standing in the name of the honourable member for Point Douglas. There is leave? Agreed. Mrs. Rosemary Vodrey (F ort Garry): Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to stand today and to speak to Bill 6, the new Mi nes and Minerals Act. Mr. Speaker, we have not had a new act for mines and minerals in approximately 60 years.

That is a very long time for people working in the field to need to refer to the previous act in doing their business today, doing their business of all kinds, both prospecting and developing. The time has come to develop then a new act. Now, Mr. Speaker, the importance of the new act is then to establish the rules and to establish the framework under which min ing explor ation companies and individual prospectors can operate in this province.

It is very important for those companies and those individuals to know the rules and to understand the rules so that they can make their business and their personal decisions about going ahead within their business. It is very imp ortant that those rules also be fair, and that the individuals making the decisions are operating with fair, equitable and comprehensive rules and framework, so that they can operate in the province fully. It is also im portant, Mr.

Speaker, that companies and individuals working in this province in the mining industry know what they can expect from government in the way of service and also in the way of security of mine ral rights. Now, we need to encourage some development of mines in the province of Manitoba. At the moment, we have two companies operating Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting and lnco. I would like to say that, during the travelling I have done through this province on the War on Drugs, I spent some time in Flin Flon and The Pas. I had a very interesting opportunity to see Hudson Bay Mi ning and Smelting in Flin Flon.

When I left the city of Flin Flon, the city gave each of the members of the War on Drugs a small card with geological samples of the kinds of mi nerals that were found in that area and were also worked through the smelting. We found it very, very interesting, coming from the southern part of Manitoba, to have had the opportunity to visit in the North and to talk directly with people who worked with Hudson Bay Mini ng and Smelting.

It was also interesting for us to talk with some of the people employed at Hudson Bay Min ing and Sm elting, who came forward to talk to our community consultation process on the issues of alcohol, drug and substance abuse, their concern as a company to deal with that issue. We want to thank the city of Flin Flon in particular for our opportunity to visit with them and to talk with them. With the two companies operating, we need to preserve the industry that we have at the moment, but we also need to generate more activity. We need to generate this activity with sustainable development in mind.

It is very im portant now in the province of Manitoba that all of the development, industrial development, mining development that takes place, take s pl ace with sustainable development in mind. The people of Manitoba are asking us to be environmentally aware and to be thoughtful in our future development. We want to with this new act enshrine the principles of sustainable development within the new Mines and Minerals Act. We also, Mr. Speaker, have to encourage further development in the mining industry because of the proposal for the new smelter for Hu dson Bay Mining and Smelting.

There needs to be feed for that smelter and, in order to have the feed and to have that feed available over the next 20 years, we have

840 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 12, 1991 to make sure that we then have the appropriate amount of feed for the smelter. Mr. Speaker, the other part of the issue in terms of the new Mines and Minerals Act is that we have to develop some ini tiatives in the province of Manitoba to attract new investors to Manitoba. It is not a secret at the moment that our own economic situation is very flat and that we need to establish new inve stment, very positive investment, in Manitoba in order to help us with our economic development. We have to make Manitoba an attractive place for investors.

We hope through these new initiatives to build Manitoba's mining industry to a more acceptable level than the level that we see today. Mr. Speaker, we also are considering some other initiatives which the Min ister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) has spoken of.

I would like to for the record restate some of those initiatives, because they tie in very closely with the new Mi nes and Mi nerals Act. * (1 150) First of all, assistance programs and training for prospectors; secondly, amendments to The Mining Tax Act to see if we can build in some incentives for new mine development; and thirdly, a new mineral development agreement in which we hope to have in place very shortly. We are also sharpening the focus of the depa rtmen t's geological sur vey activities so that we can target those areas and opportunities for maximum benefit and assistance to exploration companies.

At the same time, Mr. Speaker, we also have to do a much better job of alerting the rest of the world to the opportunities that exist in Manitoba. The department will be undertaking a more aggressive approach to the promotion and the marketing of the geological findings, publi cations and maps in the province of Manitoba.

I think that you can see that there are several areas of importance that will be covered by the new mines and mi nerals acts, both important for the people of Manitoba, those people that I spoke with when I was visiting in the North, also the companies presently operating in Manitoba, and then to attract new companies to Manitoba so that we, in Manitoba, can show the world the value of our own industry and property and people here in the province. Mr.

Speaker, I started by saying that the current act has been in place for more than 60 years, and with that it has undergone numer ous amendments, but some of those amendments have not been able to keep up with the times, and the question was, do we try and do another patch job, do we try and add to the current act, or do we then try and look at where the deficiencies in the act are and then bring forward a completely new and revised and comprehensive piece of legislation. In that new act we do need to enshrine the principles of sustainable development.

Again and again the people of Manitoba have told us that it is very imp ortant that we continue to consider the environment, and it does not matter which part of Manitoba that people live in, when they ask us to be consid er ate of susta i nable development. Ther e are 1 O principles of sus tainable development, and these are enshrined in the act. I would like to give you some examples of those for the record so that there will be no question of their importance.

In subsection 2(1) of the bill, it states: "The object and purpose of this Act is to provide for, encourage, promote and facilitate exploration, development and production of minerals and mineral product in Mani toba, consis tent with the principle s of sustainable development." Mr. Speaker, the next subsection sets out those principles in the context of mi neral development.

For example, the bill requires: "that decisions respecting the economy and mining activities be integrated with decisions respecting protection and management of the environment so that mini ng activity is commenced with due regard for its im pact on the environment and environmental programs or initiatives are instituted with proper regard for their economic impact." I quote again: "that government and industry, in their respec ti ve policies and practices, acknowledge their stewardship of the mineral resources of the province so that the economy is developed and the environment is preserved, for the benefit of pr esent and future ge nerations of Manitobans." I think that underlines the fact that we have to be very aware the decisions made today not only affect our current economic development which we are hoping to stimulate, but it will also affect the lives of future Manitobans, our children, and our children's

April 12, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 841 children, and we have to be very aware of what we are doing to the environment of our province today. I have another quote from the act, Mr.

Speaker: "that responsibili ty for sustaining a sound and healthy environment alongside development of a sound and healthy mining indus try is a responsibility that is shared by government and industry." That there is a sharing and a partnership between government and industry is an impo rtant one, and one that has been talked about by Manitobans, certainly in my constituency, and I am sure in the constituencies of other honourable members.

It is important that we in government are seen to have been listening to the people of Manitoba and are seen to be considering the issues of im portance to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, if you refer to

Section 2 of Bill 6, you will also see that the items listed under "Sustainable development" closely parallel the 10 principles es tabli shed in Mani toba's Roun d Table on Environment and Economy, putting them in a mining context. Mr. Speaker, in terms of the new act, another im portant point is that the new act will correct a major deficiency in the existing legislation by putting substantive legislation into the act itself and shifting them from the reg ulations.

I think this is an im portant point, that companies and investors are able to see within the act what is enshrined and not just looking at regulations, which in fact may be changed much more easily. I would like to give you an example of that. In the past, the tenure of mineral rights, which is the foundati on of mi neral development, has been previously dealt with by regul ation. In other words, the provisions for staking claims and acquiring min eral leases could be changed by Order-in-Council and, in the past, have been changed in that way.

It is impo rtant that some of the fundamentals be incorporated into the act themselves, and that is a point that the new Mines and Minerals Act will be attempting to do. Mr. Sp eaker, apar t from moving into the substantive

section of the bill, some of the previous regulations, we are attempting to do a second point, and that is streaming the present mineral resource legislation. In the past, there have been two other statutes which have provided authority for action within the province. One is The Industrial Minerals Drilling Act and the other is The Min eral Exp loration Assistance Act. These will be repealed, and the more useful provisions of these two acts will be incorporated into the new Mines and Mi nerals Act.

Fur thermore, because of the su bstantiv e legislation previously in the regulations now being put directly into the act, the size and the scope of the regulations can then be reduced. Again, that provides for those people who are planning to be investors in the province of Manitoba that they will be able to look directly to the act and the authority with which they will then conduct their business in the province. Mr. Speaker, within the act, it is also important for us to note some of the effect and the new thrust that this act will bring forward.

I think it is very important to recognize that, along with this new act, the mini ster has introduced the concept of a min erals research advisory council. This council, as he has stated, will consist of a number of knowledgeable people, from outside of government, to advise the mini ster on a voluntary basis.

Some examples of areas wher e they could provide advice and ex pertise are: fi rst of all, oppor tu niti es for developing, encouraging, sustaining and improving efficiency in the mi neral industry through basic and applied research; secondly, on the co-ordination of mi neral research programs; and thirdly, on ways of promoting public awareness of mi neral research and its importance to the economy of the province. Mr. Speaker, I can tell you the value of councils of citizens.

There have been seve ral councils operating in the province now and the imp ortance is that it provides for a two-way communication about the issue. In this case, it will allow people who are not part of government to bring to government, through the council, the issues of their communities, the issues of their busi nesses. It would allow government, through the advisory council, to also discuss some of the issues and problems that are currently before government and before the ind ustries, and it provides a two-way communication.

It involves the members of the public in some of the important issues that affect them. Mr. Speaker, another part of the new act which I would like to take a moment to discuss is that the act establishes a mi ning board carried over from the present act as a board of arbitration in dispu tes between parties. Many cases before the cou rts have shown that where acts have failed to establish

842 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 1 2 , 19 91 a mechanism of arbitration, there is a much longer period of dispute. It is very imp ortant that there be a mechanism in place, established through the acts, to manage issues of disputes. * (1 200) Examples of the kinds of disputes that the mining board might be called upon to deal with would be between the holder of a mineral claim and the su rface owner or the holder of a mining claim and a person wishing to acquire the quarrying rights to the same grounds. So I think it is very im portant that this act carries over that particular arbitration method.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, in speaking about this act, I would jus t like to take a moment to talk about the im portance of northern Manitoba and particularly the people of the North. People in southern Manitoba do look to the North for its wealth and, in particular, wealth of mining.

As I said, when I was travelling the province with the public consultation of the War on Drugs, it was really important to us to meet with the people of northern Manitoba and for those people to talk to us about the issues that are particularly different-in some cases, some of the issues of isolation and in some cases, issues of family and community-and to talk to us about their historical background as well and how their community has developed. We also app reciated how beautiful that part of northern Manitoba is, particularly the areas that we visited.

I want to take this moment to thank the people of northern Mani toba again for their hospitality and for their interest in the issues facing people and community. Thank you very much. Mr. Jack Reimer (Nlakwa): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to also talk on this bill, Bill 6, The Mines and Mi nerals and Consequential Amendm ents Act, and talk of the imp ortance here in Manitoba of this initiative taken on by the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld).

In thinking back of mining, one of the things that usually comes to mind is the fact of gold mining, because gold has always been a very attractive and a very positive metal in the sense of creating wealth, creating jewellery, and creating all kinds of great show pi eces that have gone on down through centuries. So gold mining is something that always comes to mind when we think of mining. I had the fortune of being raised in a mining family because my father was a miner in a small town in Northern Ontario.

He used to work in a gold mine, so I had the pleasure of being exposed to a lot of the terminologies and the mining industry and the prospectors, and the fact of great camaraderie that was established between miners and prospectors. In fact, it was a very interesting time for me as a young boy. One of the things that remains as a memory is the prospectors themselves and some of the hardships and the loneliness that is associated with these people. In going into the woods they usually have to provide and backpack and do everything on their own, so it becomes qui te a lonely vigil for a prospector.

One of the things that they look forward to is always striking that pot of gold-if you want to call it-or that lucky strike mine that is going to bring forth wealth, back to themselves and also to the company that is involved with it. Companies that do get involved with mining have to know the groundwork, Mr. Speaker. Looking at the mining industry here in Manitoba, Bill 6, the new Mi nes and Minerals Act, is trying to address these concerns. We have to ask ourself, why do we need this act at this time? We have to set the rules and the regulations as to how to stimulate and encourage investment here in Manitoba.

One of the ways to do it is to have a playing surface or a knowledge by the companies and the investors of what and how they can expect to find here in Manitoba. Bill 6 would provide the essential framework, the rules of the game if you like.

In anything, there has to be a set of guideli nes for the companies to come forth and know what they are going to expect when they get into the game, because in mining, mining is a very tenuous and a very perilous job, but before the mi nes are developed they must get into the finding and the prospecting of min es, because the min erals that are being looked for come from various regions and from various geological fau lts and geological formations.

Mining and the minerals that we look for formed eons of years ago when the earth was first formed through folds and crustaceans and through stocks of upheavals in the earth. So the miner and the prospector mu st look hard and long for a lot of these mi nerals that he has set himself up to look for.

April 12, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 843 In establishing this new bill, Bill 6, the rules we must consider fair and equitable and that the people operating in this province have full knowledge of the requirements and the onus that is placed upon them. They must also understand that what they can expect from the government in the way of services, the mineral rights and the rules and how to get and do things properly in this province. Private sector investment is very, very important in minin g, and it is the keynote of a lot of development in this province.

The private sector provides mining and investment here in Manitoba to a large extent in the northern areas of our province. As was pointed out, in Flin Flan and The Pas, their economy is very, very dependent upon mining and the active pursuit of mining and the spinoff jobs that are created with mining. Mining creates jobs; it creates wealth. It creates taxes, and taxes provide services.

That is one of the things that the people in Manitoba have become very accustomed to and expect out of their government, but at the same time, the government must provide a leadership in providing an economic climate so that mining and investment can continue to flourish in this area in Manitoba. To build Manitoba's mining ind ustry, we need to have a new act, and the new act that is put forth is going to try to eliminate 60 years of

an act that has been outgrown and is not of use in this time anymore. A number of fairly major exploration efforts are currently underway in Mani toba, in Flin Flan, Snow Lake, Wabowden and as far south as Grand Rapids. In these types of expansions, the exploration that is being put forth, and the initiatives, have to be under certain guidelines. Other initiatives that are being looked at with this act are the assistant program and training programs for prospectors.

Training, the assistance and the knowledge that can be put forth by the government to help in any way to encourage the mining, to encourage the development, to encourage the exploration in our great province is always a welcome sign, because mining creates an awful lot of jobs, as was mentioned before on jobs. The safety of the workers is always very im portant. This act will address some of the safety concerns.

The initiatives for new mine development, a new mineral development agreement, these are some of the things that will come into focus with this act, and it will target areas of opportunity for maximum bene fits and assistance to the ex pl orati on companies. This government, by this act, will plan to do a much better job of alerting the rest of the world to wha t is exis ting in Mani toba, because the competition for dollars for investment, not only here in Manitoba, but in all provinces in Canada is ongoing.

The governments and the industries have the luxury of choice at times as to where they want to develop, and they, in looking at provinces, must look at the economic climate. They must look at, naturally, the rules and regulations that apply so that they can get the best return for their dollar, because, Mr. Speaker, the mining companies work for profit. * (1210 ) Profit is not a dirty word.

A profit is something that the mining companies have to have, because as they generate the profit, they are usually, in almost all cases, doing it as a public company, and they are fulfilling an obligation to their shareholders and to the investors of that company to get a fair and equitably return on their money. They must look at mining and the environment, and particularly, hopefully here in Manitoba, at the environment that we are trying to create, not only by the Mini ster of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) , the Minister of Mi nes and Energy (Mr . Neufeld) and the Mini ster of Industry, Trade and Tourism( Mr.

Stefanson), but that we provide this economic climate for this type of development. Any types of rules and regulations have to be understood and have to be in a position that they are easily interpreted, not only for the public sector, but also for the mining community and the people who are going to be involved with the minin g community. New mine development and mineral development in this agreement, it will address in this fashion. The promotion, the marketing of the geological findings and the publ icati ons of maps the department produces will be made available.

All these things can be used as a source of information for the companies, and there are various companies throughout the world. In today's world, it is not uncommon to have mining companies from various countries all over the world investing in other provinces and in other countries because of the fact that they are looking at a return.

844 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 12, 1991 We have heard very recently that there is even the speculation of possibly diamonds in the northern part of Canada, and particularly they are possibly looking at diamonds in Alberta, and I believe that there is even the hint, or the innuendo, that there is possibly that type of mining in diamonds in certain areas of this province. That, indeed, would be a very strong and positive input if this was to come about because, as with gold, the lure of gold and the lure of diamonds just seem to catapult men's minds and expectations.

If, indeed, there was the hint of diamonds, whether it was for jewellery use, or for industrial use, this would indeed spur a great amount of interest in our province and, hopefully, these things can be pur sued in a very vigorous manner by our government and our people. Diamonds are im portant, just as gold and copper and nickel have been a part of our Manitoba growing up, if you like to call it, because mining and the lure of mining drew a lot of people here to Manitoba and it still draws a lot of people.

The town of Thompson, with its nickel mine, is well-noted for Its growth and develop ment because of the strong mining economy. We have noted that Thompson and lnco are in an expansion mode right now because of the world market, and the development in and around Thompson, so all these things are very positive for the province here. We also, with Bill 6, will be planning to release a mi nerals workbook, and it is a component of the land and water sustainable development strategy.

A very, very im portant part of any type of mining developmen t is the increased envi ronm ental awareness covering the requirements of closure and the rehabilitation of mines and quarries. The environmental concerns are paramount in everybody's mind nowadays and with mining there is that certain perspective, or overview, if you like to call it, that mining sometimes leaves a lot of scars or waste in its wake after it is closed, and to a degree there is an awful lot of movement of earth and movement of rocks in mining because for every ton of material that is mined there is a very, very small amount of mi neral.

In fact, in mining for gold, usually if you can get one-tenth of an ounce per ton, a mine is viable. When mining was first started, when gold was at $35 an ounce, they were able to mine mi nes at that time that were producing upwards of one ounce per ton, but now with today's sophistication and modern equipment they can be still economical and produce a profitable mine with less than 1 O percent of an ounce, or one-tenth or two-tenths of an ounce per ton because of the amount of tonnage that can come out from underneath the ground.

The mines today go down hundreds and thousands of feet and will follow a vein up and down and all over following for this mineral, whether it be gold or nickel or silver or copper. Manitoba does have its share of all those minerals. Mr. Speaker, this act, as was mentioned, has been around; the existing Mines Act has been in effect for over 60 years and naturally has outgrown its numerous amendments.

It has been revised, and above all what we want to do now is we want to enshrine the new act with the principles of a sustainable development so that we can establish in a very basic way for conducting business and developing our resources. The object and the purpose of the act is to provide for and the encouragement to promote and facilitate exploration, the development, and the production of min erals, the mine ral pr oducts in Mani toba consistent with this sustainable development. As the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Cumm ings) has often said, this will be one of the priorities of Manitoba that inq uiries, boards and boards of listening will always be set up when we are working with anything that will have any type of damage or so-called damage to the environment, a very im portant part of the legislation. We feel that the co-ordination between all min isters will take place in trying to ensure that the industries that are involved with working on top and below the earth here in Manitoba will adhere to the rules that we have set forth.

We have to make sure that the economy here is developed and the environment is preserved, not only for the present but for the future because it is the future that we have to be cognizant of. The future of the province and the future of the people in this province will look back to our generations and wanting to have the opportunity to participate and to be part of the growth of Manitoba. If we do not provide the environment for them or the fact that the working conditions are available for them, what they will do is they will look back and say that we did not do our jobs.

In looking at the act now, we are trying to not only correct some of the things that have happened in the past but to look with an eye to the

April 12, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 845 future so that things can continue to prosper. The guidelines will be set up through this act, Mr. Speaker. Special reference in the act is made to the theme of rehabilitation. With this act the requirement for all companies undertaking advanced exploration on the project of building roads, draining lakes and generally altering the landscape for exploration pur poses will be looked at and things like that will have to be complied with.

We are taking a somewhat different approach to the aggregate quarries in that they have been developed in full consultation, and the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association has been in close co-ordination and close contact with the min ister in establishing these guid elines. We will establish a rehabilitation fund into which monies will be paid through a levy on each ton of aggregate which is extracted from both the Crown and privately owned qu arries. This is a very innovative and a very positive initiative in that the fund will be used to rehabilitate both former and existing quarries.

This will be administered by the department. This is a very positive step because the one thing that we do not like to see in any of our landscaping here is the horrific scars we see of some strip mining, and the fact that quarries are mi ned and the gravel and the aggregate or the minerals are taken away. The scarring of the land is there and will stay there for hundreds and hu ndreds of years because of the fact of mi smanagement and the poor foresight of the legislation that allowed that to happen. * (1 220) So we are looking at trying to correct these problems, Mr. Speaker, with this act.

We feel that this fund will be used not only to deal with the current operating quarries, but would also clear up the sins of the past by building up a sufficient reserve to pay for rehabilitation of these abandoned quarries. This is something that may take a little time, but if there is a positive step put forth now, and there is effective recognition that these things have to be done, then there is a willingness to make this happen, and that is part of this government's legislation and this government's directive.

The new act will also correct a major deficiency by putting su bstantive legislation into the act itself and shifting it out of the regulations. For example, in the tenure of mineral rights, these have been dealt with by regulations, and now, Mr. Speaker, they will be enshrined in the statute of the rules governing the issuance of leases. This will give the companies doing business in Manitoba some comfort and security, because of the investment that they have, that they will be providing and putting into their endeavours and mining here will be protected by this act.

Fur thermore, because of the substa ntiv e legislation which was formerly in the regulations, it will now be going directly into the act. The scope of the regulations will be correspondingly reduced. Part one of the act includes

definitions, Mr. Speaker, the

definitions for the application of the act to the Crown mineral rights and to the operations of the mines in both Crown and private land. Par t two sets out the du ties and the responsibilities of the mini ster, the director of the mines, inspectors and the mining recorders. These are recognizing the imp ortance of the scientific and technological innovation. We have introduced the concept of a mi nerals research advisory council, which will consist of the people from outside the government, to advise the mi nister on a voluntary basis.

This is an advisory council that will look at ways of dealing with mining, concerns of the mining industry, concerns of government too, and the co-ordination and the co-operation of making an industry more viable and more accountable and more in tune with what both levels are looking at. In recognizing the importance of the scientific and technological innovations, this advisory council will be in close contact with the mi nister. Mr.

Speaker, we believe that a council like this with the mi nister's approval will set up the directing and the future role of the mission in the department, and will be actively involved in an active role in advising the research departments in the efforts we would like to see come forth.

Part 3 of this act establishes a mining board. This is a board of arbitration which will act in dispu tes between parties and selected incidences and also as a board of appeal against the action of officials. A board like this looks at the arbitration between possibly the dispute between a prospector and a claimant or an elapsed claim or the ownership of land where the claim is placed between the owner of the land and the prospector. This mini ng board will go a long way in establishing a vehicle of

846 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 12, 1991 communication for the solving of some of these concerns that will come forth or that have come forth in the past, Mr. Speaker. Parts 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 will follow in the logical sequence of the mine and quarry development for the acquisition of licences, permits and claims, and through the explor ation and the obtaining of claims-of leases.

Part 9 deals with the acquiring and holding of surface rights needed for mining development.

Part 10 deals with the pooling and the interest of unit operations, which are required primarily for potash operations. Potash operations here in Manitoba have been talked about. There was the talk of a potash mine a few years ago here in Manitoba. With the world economic situation with fertilizer and potash right now, something like this may not be totally appropriate, but at the same time, it is something that must be addressed and kept in the forefront as to if and when there is a need that Manitoba is indeed in a position to act on it. In looking at the act, Mr. Speaker,

Part 14 is an all-im por tant par t in the age of in creasing environmental awareness- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I hesitate to interrupt the honourable member, but I would remind the honourable member that it is the principle of the bill that we are debating here today. We do not quote specific sections of the act. Mr. Reimer: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, for that clarification, because I appreciate the direction, and I do believe that the direction should be towards this act and the fine job that the min ister has come forth with in this legislation.

I would think that, in looking at the positive and the strong mining environment here in Manitoba, we should be aware of these concerns, and the act itself is going to provide a lot of good direction and good legislation this government feels should come forth. The economic thrust of establishing ground rules are one of the most primary functions of this government and this min ister. This government takes this quite seriously, because the development and the economic growth of Manitoba hinges to a degree on a lot of our natural resources.

The jobs that are created, the min es -(in terjection ) - I remember it very well, as the logging industry. The logging industry also provides a -(interjection)- No, my father, as was mentioned, was a logger, and he was a min er. I gu ess you migh t call him a jack-of-all-trades that I was fortunate to be exposed to. In looking at this bill, we must be cognizant of all these facts in looking at it. I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity to address this bill. Mr. Speaker: As previously agreed, this matter will remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes).

The hour being 12 :3 0, this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 1 :30 p.m . (Monday).

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba Friday, April 12, 1991 CO NTENTS ROUTI NE PROCEEDINGS Presenting Petitions Sturgeon Road Edwards 821 Introduction of Biiis Bill 26, Environment Amendm ent Act

(3) Edwards 821 Bill 24, Business Practices Amendment Act Gaudry 821 Oral Question Period Harvey Pollock Case Doer; Mccrae; Chomiak; Edwards 822 GRIP Program Plohman; Fi ndlay; Downey 825 Assiniboine River Diversion Plohman; Downey; Dewar; Cummings 826 City of Winnip eg Dewar; Cummings Mini sters' Car Allowances Carstairs; Manness Women in Government Carstairs; Praznik Gas Stations Maloway; Mcintosh 827 827 828 828 CareerStart L. Evans; Gilleshammer Youth Employment L.

Evans; Gilleshammer Swan Lake Fishing Industry Wowchuk; Enns Lake Winnip egosis Wowchuk; Enns Fishing Industry Wowchuk; Enns Nonpolltlcal Statements Festival of Vaisakhi Cheema Manitoba Junior Hockey League Championship Penner Hickes ORDERS OF TH E DAY Debate on Second Readings Bill 5, Mental Health Amendment Act Wowchuk Santos Bill 6, Mi nes and Min erals and Consequential Amendm ents Act Vodrey Reimer 829 829 829 829 830 830 830 831 831 834 839 842

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-21
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 21.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0774868015f90270ee9f3e555b808202afdb0658

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