Volume XLI Tu esday Province of Newfoundland FORTY- FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF · NEWFOUNDLAND , Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Number 53 12 June 1990

The House met at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker (Lush): Ot"det", 'please! Oral Questions The hon. the Member For Harbour Main. . !'1.r. . ...!_ ..... .R.Q..Y...1_t: : M r . s pea k e r , I h a v e a question for the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. The Minister will be aware that the unemployment figures have once again been released for the month of May and once again the figures are very, very alarming indeed. The unemployment rate is up three full percentage points over the same time period last year and that's at a time, Mr.

Speaker, when fishermen are not included in the figures because they are presumably back to work. I lAJant to ask the Mini stet" doE:~s the Minister now view the unemploymE:~nt figures as alarming, and can she indicate to the House what her plan of attack is witb which to deal with this crisis? Mr . Speak e,r : The Ministet" of ErnployrnE:~nt Relations. hon. the and Labour Ms Cowan: Mr. Speakr:~r, thank you . The statistics, of course, are not. good and I am tAJait.ing notAl to meet with the individual who g·ives I'I'H~ a thot"ough br·iefing, which I am sure the hon.

Member of the 0 p position tAli s he s he had , so that I can ~~et up ancl make stt"aightfot"U.Jat"d, sens·:i.bl1:• contrnt~nt.s on the employment statistics. the There is indeed a change in employment statistics all across tn this but Canada, an increase unemployment everywhere, and is largely, I tAJould assume, L 1 June 12, 1.990 Vol XU will wait until I briefing, due to interest rates tAJhich down particularly the industry. have had rny increasing are slotAJing construction Mr. Speaker: The han. the MCo!ITtber' for St. Mary's - fhe Capes . Mr. Doyle: Harbour Main . Mr. Speaker: I am sorry.

Harbour Main. ~X . ..! .. -...... __!2_9JL.1.© .. : M 1" . S pea k e I" , I h a v E! been questioning the Minister on this par·ticular' issUE! notAl fol" about six months and every time thr:~ Minister gE!tS up, she is gooi.nq to get a briefing.

NotAl I am wondering when she is going to get ht~r briefing, and IAJhat shE! is going to do about it tAJhen she gets her briefing. rhe Minister indicated, when I questioned her about a month ago, that shE• lAJas monitoring the unemployment figures and tAJould introduce additional mNtsurr:'s, shE! told us, to deal tAJith the crisis, if the unemployment figures should tJJarrant it.

NotAl, I tAiant to ask her, in view of the fact that. t:he unemployrnE!nt t"at.''' is 18.8 per· cent, and that 1s a ver·y, VE!I"Y high unemployment rate - 18.8 per cent is it time yet to introduce theSE1 additional mE:'aSUI"eS shE:! 1.\laS t a 1 k i n g a b o u t , a n cl tAl h a t a t" E! t h ~:· s f~ measures? ~ .. c..~- --·-·-·-~ .P.~~-k. _§!_C : r he h o n . l.. h E• Ministet" of EmploymE '!I'lL <~tncl l...<·'l.bout" Relations. Ms Cou.Jan : Yes . My u· ··i l:ic acr·oss the tAla~ is doi~g his usual business of taking tAJhat I have said and distot"ting it ·.

Ol" put:t:in~~ :it -.i.nto a tota l.ly diffl,!r'E'n t:. ttrne frame than he knot.~.Js I !Alas stat.i.nq when I responded to him. No. ')3 Rl

I wi11 repeat again that the employment figures are not good. I am not attempting to run out and defend them in any kind of manner. I have never in this House ever before sa id I am waiting for a briefing, unemployment notes. so he might take that in mind. I might also remind him of the fact that there was a minus one point seven growth in employment while his Government was in power. while everywhere else in the Maritimes it increased by much, much more. so he is well acquainted with the fact that one. does not resolve these issues overnig ht. Mr . Speaker.

And I can again say jus l: for him, in hopes that eventually he will hear it and it will sink in, although I have grave doubts about his ability to lis ten and ·to comprehend, that we are. as a Government, committed to reducing unemployment in this Province and we will , as time passes and as our plans fall into place and we start them. see what we have started, begin to accelerate . and resul t in some meaningful creation of jobs that will see our people in long-term employment. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! ~r . S pea kC?.r._ : The h o n . the Member for Harbour Main . Mr. Doyle: Mr.

Speaker, the Mi .nister has had almost 500 n:ights to deal with this particular issue, to come up IAJi.th sornE! kind of a program . Some Hon. Members : Hear, hear! Mr . Doyle : Now what we are seeing in the unemployment rate of 18.8 per cent is an ominous upward trend, but most of all what we are seeing is that the Minister is 1_2 June 1.2, 1990 Vol XU fresh out of ideas to deal with it. An H911. Member: Put your question . Mr.

Doyle: NouJ IAJill the Minister immediat•::!ly J.aunch some sot't of a program to d€~al IAJith this crisis we are in, or, at the very 1 east, to top up the $2.9 million program, which is exhaus ted ricJht now, the $2 .9 mil lion program which was previously $7 million, will she immediately rnov e to top that up to the original $7 mi lli on so that the people of the Prov ince can have sorne lne1.iE!f. From unemployment? Min. Speaker: The Minister of Employment ReJ.ations . hon. and tht' Labour Ms Cowan: Thank you, Ml". Speaker. It gives this gentleman on the Opposite s:idt' of thE!

HoUSt' a great deal of pleasun· to curnE! in E!Velny now and then and h'Y to discredit me in some way and rnake me look as if I am the one who is responsible for the unemployment in this Province. Some Hon. Members : Oh, oh! Ms Cowan: Mr . Government looks - Speaker, An Hon. Mernbeln: (Inaudib1e). OUI" Ms CouJan: - upon rne as a rnernbe1n of a t~~am, a te,:1rn of people 1.1Jho are striving tOIAJarcls recluci.nq Lh(:! unemployment in this Province. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Cowan: And any per son on ·the Opposite side of th e House who thinks that Newfoundlander s hav e the expectations that th e Minis te r of Employment and Labour Relations is going to correc t this overnigh t, is crazy . No. '~3 r~ 2

An Hon. Member: overnights. You have had 500 Ms Cowan: And, no, I am not about to put $2.9 million back into a private sector progr·am because it was a useless program that did nothing to meet the commitments of our particular Liberal Party and Government . We are not going to go that route anymorE! . You might as tJJell forget it, because we are not going to do it. So just get that through your heads.

We will, however, look for types of employment programs, and are undertaking some of them at this moment, that will lead to a genuine lo ng-te J~rn c ormrri tme nt to the work force which will improve, not only the economic viability of this Province, but will also improve _ the quality of the lives of people who live here. . Mr. Doyle: A final supplementa1ny, Mr . Speaker. Mr. Speaker : for Harbour suppl"''rnentary . The han. Main on the Member a final Mr . Doyle: Mr . Speaker, the Minister indicated in answering that question that she is not responsible for the unemployment rate in the Province.

Maybe she can indicate to us who is the Minister responsible for unemployment in the Province? Could she tell us that? If she is not responsible, who is? Mr. Speaker : The MinisteJ~ of Employment Relations. hon. the and Labour Ms CouJan: He ud.11 havE! to repeat the question, because I do not understand it. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! L3 June 12, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The hon . the Member for Harbour Main . Mr. Doyle: rh"'~ MinistE!r said a few minutes ago, when she was answering the quest:i .on, that s h•:.> is not responsible for the unemployment rate in the Province.

Maybe she could indicate to us who is responsible . An Hon. Member: What Minister. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Ms Cowan: I love it. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! An Han . Member : Who is t.he Min ister of Employment? Ms Cowan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker: Order, please! I have yet. not recognized the Minister Ms Cowan: Oh, you haue not recognized me yet . Mr . Speaker: rhe ME!IIJbE!r can stand, bE!Cause• I cannot r·ecognize you when you are sitting . Ms Cowan: Okay. Mr . Speaker: fhe hon. Lhe MinistE!r of Employrr1ent and l_abouJ" Relat .ions . Ms Cowan: Thank you, MJ" .

Sp~~a i<er -~-- -·r cannot. bl~ 1 i (;! v e t.h ~~ 111an asked me that question. Who is J"esponsiblE! fo1n th.::' lHlE•inployment in this Province? Who is responsible? And there we have all the figures which I tabled before uJhE!n I tAJas :in he1ne, and I will. do it again. They want: it No. ':i3 1n

again so let 1 s go . Here Ll.Je at ~e. The growth in unemploym ent insuranc e re cipients. Let's look at · it . Sinc e 19'79 in NetA.Jfoundland : We started off in 1979 with 43,862 unemployment insurance recipients in Newfoundland . By 1987 we,~ had 66. 196. and then you are as king rne who is responsible. I t"Jill table that happi1 .Y. if there is anybody around who wants to take it . An Han. Memb er: Read more, Patt.. f1?. ___ ~Q~E!D. : Okay. The unemployrn E!nt rat e - An Han . Memb er: This is scandalous . Answer the question. Mr . Speaker: Order , please! Ms Cowan : I am answering the question. Mr .

Speaker. in the best way I can. Some Han. Members : Oh, oh! Ms Cowan: Thank you. We have, and .. _l __ .. ,have said this lTlany tirnes befor e in this House, an horrendous job before us to try to c1 ear away , to straighten atAJay what IAJas left to us by an Administration before who believed only in make -work programs and let's meet the needs of people today; it. does not rna ·l:tel~ about l:omon·ot.u, tAle tAJi.11 gt::!t l:hern off l:he IAJelfare roJ.os today. That is alr·ight. They tAiill back on :in a month or several months dotAJrl the road, bu t we will worry about that then. Some Han .

Members: Oh, oh! !"'...r _ _!_._.~ _e_a k e .. r. : 0 r d e r , p 1 e as e ! I ask the hon . the Minister to take her place. The Chair realiZI;:!S whE:'n we get into matl:ers Lfl. Jun e 12, 199 0 Vol XI... I of un emplo ym ent or em ployment, as the case mi ght be , that there is a tendency to gi ve long -winded speec hes. I remind han. Mem bers, an d h an. Ministers in partiCLilar, tha t the Qu esti on Period is For answers and they ought to be as brief as possible. So I have heard enough of the Minis tor's answer to the question. The han. the Member for Fogo. Mr. Winsor : Thank you . Mt". Sp eaker.

My qut~st.i o n is a lso to the Minister of Empl oyme nt and Labour Relations. Las t wer:: 'k St.a ts Canada reported that: th e unemployment rate in Central and Northeastern Newfoundland is al: 26 per cent . That rn (.~a ns l:ha t rnore than 25 per cent of thE! population, over a quartE!r oF the population, arE! unE•lTtployr::~cl. W ~i11 the Minister now admit that in this portion of the Province there is a serious employment crisis? Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker : Order, pJ. ease! The han. th e Min iste r of Employment and l_abour Relatio ns . Ms Cowan : I ha ve never tri. ed, Mr.

Speaker , to hide from the fact that we ha ve an emp loyment problem in this Pro vince. I have never tried to hide from that fac ·t. In fact, we are facing up to it as a Government and hav e put in pl ace a variety of programs wh ic h, over the long-ter m, a re going to see a ·dec rease in the peo ple who are on unemp lo yme nt. Mr. Winsor : Sp eaker . Mt~ . Speaker : for Fogo . No. 53 A supplE:'tn enta t"Y, Ml". The hon. the Me'lTlb C::'l" R4·

Min. Winsor: Now that the Ministe1n has confirmed that then~ is indeed a 26 per cent unemployment rate in Central Newfoundland, and in view of the fact that this administration has committed itself to an Economic Recovery Commission - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! I reg1net having to interrupt the han. Member, but I JAJant to remind han. Mr:~mbers on both sides of the House that Question Period will work much more smoothly if we refrain from the interruptions and the loud talking I am hearing from both sides of the House . The hon. the Member for Fogo. Mr. Winsor: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

Since there is an unE:Hnployrn~;!nt rate of 26 per cent and this Government committed itself tn the last: election to a recovery program, can the Minister tell us what new employment strategies she has in place for this crisis in Central NetAJf ou ndland? Mr. Speaker : The Minister of Employment Relations. hon . and the Labour Ms Cowan: Unfortunately, Min . Speaker, this Government . does not control some of lhe factors that are leading to unemployment now in this Province and across Canada.

As I stated earlier, high interest rates are having a great impact on different types of employment that would usually, at lhis time of year, take up people who neE:~ded work and tAle tAJould start to see a more positive change in the unemployment statistics. LS June 12, 1990 Vol XLI Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Min. Speaker: Olnder, please! I ask the hon. Mini st er to take her place. The Chair, just seconds ago, asked for the co-operation of all hon. Members on both sides of the House. The Chair gets distracted and cannot listen to the answers. If han.

Members l!.Jant the Chair t.o listen to the answer to decide tAJhen the anstAJer has been made, I lAJou1.d ask hon . Members again, please, to refrain from t.alldng back and forth across the floor. The han. the MinistE!I~ of Employment and Labour Relations . Ms Cowan : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The GovernmE!nt has a number of programs tAJhich l!.Je hope will develop industry, develop j o b s and de v e J. o p lAJO r k places w hE· r e people can find employment.

We cannot just suddenly wave a rnagic wand, as tAJe have often said, nor do we have a magic pot :into JAJhich tAle can put our hands and puLl out all kinds of jobs. WE! w"i11 develop a s lrong, sound economy, which the Minisler of Developrnonl, as I have said before, is busy trying to do. The Economic Recovery Commission have proved themselves very good in this particular way. The Minister of Education is seeing that peop1l" in the Province gE!t a qood educal~"ion so t.hat they ar'E! lllOI"E! rE!C:H:I"i .ly t>rnployable, the type of F>l'!Opl~' tAJho will stay in the Province.

If you would you like to know what I arn doing in rny DE•partrnE!nt ·- if they do not knol!.J _ .. ancl I cannot see how they could have beon in this House for tlris long and not be aware of the different programs, the Canada/NewfoundJ.and Youth Str-ab,~qy and other plnoqr'arns No . IJ 3 R':i

we have, the Employment Generation Program that was put in place. An Hon . Member : (Inaudible) spr::~ech . Mr. Speaker : Order, please! I remind han. Members that I would have asked the Minister to have taken her place before she got into responding to a question that was thrown across the floor. Again I remind han. Members that it does not help the Chair any in trying to decide whE!n a question is answered when a question is flung at the Minister when she is cluing up on that particular answe1". I have heard a enough of that answer. On with the question. The han. the Member for Fogo. Mr.

Winsor: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The Minister has already indicated to this House that in her Employment Generation Program should there be any slippage funds, then the new projects would go the areas or the Province experiencing the highest unemployment rate. Can we now logically assume then that any new Funds which will be distributed this year will go to the central/northeast area, since they have the highest unemployment rate in the Province? Mr.

Speakt?r: The M:i n:i ster of Emp1oyrnent Relations. hon . and the Labour Ms Cowan : As money becomes a"v "~.:\i'fa'b1.-e···- through slippage and l.t.le do not have any right at the rnorn(:'nt, but IAJhen it is availablr:~, IJ..Je l,~o,Jill assess the statistics at that time and then look at the applications from the areas of highest unemployment and those that meet the criteria will be L6 JunE! 12, 1990 Vol XLI given every consideration. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. -Rideout: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the Premier.

I wandel" if the PrE:Hnier is al,~o,Jare that his, for want of a be t t e r word , cons tit uti o n a 1 E! n v o y , I suppoSE!, the ME:~mbel~ for Pleasantville, the person who fiLl.s in making constituti.onal speeches for the Premier From time to time around the PI"OvincE•, the person who takes constitutional issues to radio open-line shows from time to time and tho person who has recently accompanied the Premier to the latest constitutional conference, is the Premier at,l,)are that thE' Member for Pleasantville, on the Open Line Show Straight Talk this morning, said the fol1owing and I quote, "I believe Newfoundland could do well as an indE:1pendent country", and what is the Premier's reaction to such a definitive statement by his close constitutional confidant, Ml".

SpE!aker? Some Han. Members : Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The han. the Premier. Premi er Wells: I did not hear the statement, nor· do r l<nOl,~o,J Fr·orn Lhe characterization oF it. by the Leade1n of the Opposi.tion l,l,)hat Lhe c o n t e x t v.1 a s . T h e s t a t. E~ rn e n t , if H. l.t.Jas in ansl.t.Jer to a question, 1nay l,~o,Jell be a complE!tE•1y ac cul"at.e <:1ncl honest ansiJ..Jer. If i.l": . l.t.Jas cast in the context of expressing t:hE'! desil"e or t,~o,Jish of the han. Member that N muf o u n d 1 and s h o u1 cl be an independent country, I would rE!pudiate it~ 11..d.thout qUE!Sti.on.

I doubt very much, knol,~,rinq the han. No. 53 R6

Member as I do, that he implied or suggested any such thing. An Han. Member: Yes, he did. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Premier Wells: I doubt very much ~hat hon. Member implied or suggested any such thing. It may simply be an expressing of his great confidence in the economic competence and productive ability of the Newfoundland people. Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Premier Wells: Don't laugh. Don't decry the economic competence and productive capability of the Newfoundland people quite so easily. He may. indeed, be quite correct in his judgment; he is entitled to that point of view.

It does not, I am sure, reflect any wtsh or desire on his part. And if it does. it is totally contrary to the wish and desire of the Government and, I believe, 99 per cent of the people of this Province. So if he is in that point of view, he is in a very small minority. Mr. Simm_~: (Inaudible) gone last fall, Noel gone this spring . Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Min. Rideau t: Th~::~ Pr't::~mier '.'is in grave danger of losing his second constitutional adviser in the GovernmE!nt, Min. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker-, thE: ' same ME!Inber indicated this morning, on the sam~>. program, that he had researched to show that Newfoundland could do well as an independent country. An Hon. Member: Oh, oh! Mr. Rideout : I tAJanL t-:o ask the L7 June 12, 1990 Vo1 XLI Premit~r could the Prernit:!r te11 t-:hE! House whether or not the Government has car-rted out any such research? If so, what werE! the results of the research the Government carried out, if they had in fact done any? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier . Premier Wells : No. NE:'VE!r eVE!I'l gave it a second thought. Unnecessary . We are pr·-o udJy part of Canada.

We are Canadians first, and that is where we are going to rE:'rnain . Mr. Speaker: Thr:' hon. the LeaciE!I" of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Mr. SpeakE!r, a supplementary to the P1nernier. In view of the fac l: that the· ME:~rnbt::'r for Pleasantville has indicated that he has such research data compiled, I wonder would the Premier undertake to have the Government analyze that research data and lEd: thE• people and th.is House know whether or not it is valid research data, the source and what it all means, Mr . Speaker? Mr. Simms: He was speaking on behalf of the Government.

Min. fUdeout: He u . .Jas spE!akinq on behalf of Government. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Thr:~ hon. the PrE:'ITLiel". Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, the question ts so inconstderate, i11-timecl, insensitive of Lhe circumstance - An Han. Member' : Then IAJhy clicl ho bring it up? He is your Member. No. ~i3 rn

Premier Wells : I will start again : The question is so inconsiderate, ill-timed and insensitive of the circumstances that I think the Leader of the Opposition does great offence to the people of this Province to even ask. The answer is no. The Government is not interested in looking at the question. It is not a consideration for the GoveJ~nmC:~nt, and we have no interest whatsoever in it . Mr . Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr . Rideout: Let me ask this, Mr.

Speaker, to this insensitive Premier over on Is he sensitive the other sid<::~. to the fact that Members of his caucus are advocating separatism? satisfied IAiith if you tAJant sensitivity? Is that, to Newfoundland the PrE:~miel~ Mr. Speaker, talk about Some Hon. Members: Hear. hear! Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! ~r ... '-. ...... _ .. _§._p_~-~~-~-r: Ordt:!r. please! Order, please! The hon. the Prt:~mier. Premier Wells : No, That was started by the Opposition . Mr. Speaker. the Leadr::~1~ of An Hon . Member : That lAJas startt:>d by the Member (inaudible) . An· Hon .

Member: (Inaudible) thousand Newfoundlanders . premiel~ Wells: No, M1~. SpE!akE!r, I have not heard it. I have not spoken to the Member concerned, but I know the Member concerned wel1 E!nough to know that:. there is no way in this world that he would L.8 June 12, 1990 Vol XLI even consider advocating it. I know he is as good a Canad~lan as anybody in the country . Mr. Rideout : You had bEd: l:er get the tapes. Everybody else heard it, thousands of people . Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The han. the Member for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews : Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. r· have a question for the Minister of Emp1oyment and Labour Relations. A few weeks ago, the Minister tabled an invoice from Fishery Products International cover·ing payments to that company under Government's extended notiCE! per·iod payments for April and May and the total for both these months paid to FisheJ~y Products IntE!I~nattonal tAJas $313,4-25. I am Lr.Jonder·ing if the Minister of Employment and !...about~ Relations could inform the House of what these payiTIE!nts wet"E! for·. What was covered under this $313,000? ~r.

Speaker: Hw MinisU!r of Employrn~~nt Relati .o ns . hon . the and Labour Ms Cowan: Yes. a 5·-a--·;:;·at ice of will get the gentleman. I t~.Jill t:akE:! that a qUE!S tton and I answer for the Mr. Speaker : The hon. the MembN ' for Grand Bank . M1~. Matthews: Thank you, Mt". Speaker . I thought a Few weeks ago. whE!n the Minister tab1E!d th:i s inforrnat-:ion, lhal: at. least · she would know for what her Department was paying out $313,000 to Fishet~y Products International for. Now, on this invoice, there is essential No. 53 Ml". Speaket~. lflaint.enance R8

cost covered for Aplni.l; Fo1n May there is plant overheads, fleet overheads and essential maintenance cost. Since th«::~ Premier and the Minister of Fisheries have consistently said that this money For the extended notice period was going directly into the pockets of the fish plant workers, can th«::~ MJ.niste1n explain for the House what is covered in plant overheads and fleet overheads and essential maintenance cost? Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Employment Relations. hon. and the Labour Ms Cowan: Again, Mr.

Speaker, with you1n pennission, I would like to take that as a question and return with the information at the earliest possible opportunity. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member fo1n Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews: A final supplementary, Mr . Speaker. I lAJOnder', as weJ.l, when the Minister comes back with hE!r infonnation, which I hope lAJOn 1 t take too J.on<,1, since this progr'am tJJas announced on January S of' this yE•ar, if the Minister could determine iF this payment of $313,000 represents 20 per cent of the total cost of running the plants at Grand Bank, Gaultois and Trepassey? Is that what 1 s covered here?

For instance, would the Minister be able to confirm that even the light bills, and so on, are b«::dng paid to Fishery Products International at t.heSE! three locattons? Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Employment: !~elations. Ms Cowan: I arn not L9 June 1.2, 1990 hon . the and Labour qu:i .t.E! Sl.llnE! Vol XL..I what he said at the end about light bills, I seemed to lose track of his quest.:l.on. Again, Lhe gentlr"~man is trying to 'i.rnply that some how or other more money is being given to t.he company than is necessary.

If he had read the contract between the company and the Government, he would realize that th«::~re is bu:i.1 t i.nto that contract an

article which deals with those particular situations, so that if one month there is more money put in than is necessary, then it will be subtracted in another month. If that 1 s Uw question h1:" was asking, I arn not quite sure, because he changed tracks two or thrr::~e times in Lhe question. Mr. Speaker: The han. Lhe Member for Port au Port . Mr. Hodder: Thank you, Ml". Speaker. A question For the Ministr:~ln of Fishel"iE!S. As the Minister is aware, thE! fish plant in the District of Port au Port is not working and we have had two stonns whtch have t.~dpE:!cl ouL l.he lobster fishery.

Yesl :el"cia y, 1no st: of the fishel"rnen :l.n LhE· al"ea started in Lhe cod Fishery, an d the only buyer in Lhe whole of Bay St. GeorgE:' region has dr:,cicled not to buy. I spokE! lo the Pl"e~dcfent. of l:he Deve1op1nent. Associat.ion, Mr '. Speaker', and he expl"essecl lhe Fee1Lng t.hts rnor·ninq Lha l:. Lazai"US visited t.he Distd.ct and jt . had lnubb~O!d ofF. My question to the MinisLer is, would the Mini ster have his officials visit the District ol Pol"t au Por t and tTy t.o Lake so111e action l:o rectiFy l:hl':• s'LLual:.ion?

There are several very serious problems then':! and. 1 mu s l:. say to th«::' Min:iste1n, this is one of lhe mast serious probl uiTIS [ haVE! ever seen faci.n<,1 l:.he ai"E'•a: t.hei' ;E:, '.i.s no No. 1)3 I'')

fish have they their plant, no buyeln, fishermE!n their gear in the water, and have no one to whom to sell fish. Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Fisheries. han. the Mr. Carter: Mr. Speaker, I don 1 t want to build up hopes, but I can tell the han. Member that the Department is now in the pro c e s s of negotiating t.-.Jith a prospective ope1nator for the plant in Piccadilly. It is not by any means finalized yet, but certainly negotiations are ongoing.

With respect to the other rna t ter raised in his question, I will certainly have my officials check out the situation and see what, if anything, we can do to assist. ~r. Speaker: fhe han. the Member for Port au Port. Mr. Hodder : Mr. Speaker, with a11 clue respect to the Minister, I am aware of the company with whom the Department of Fisheries is negotiating, and the feeling is that even if a deal tJJere struck with this company this week or next week, it would probably be another month or so before anything could happen with that fish plant. At the:' p1nesent timE•, the buyer is the fish plant from St.

George 1 s - St. George 1 s Seafoods. They have a problem with getting rid of their offal and tAlith some freezing equipmE!nt. This morning, fishermen in Blue Beach had to dump all their Fish at sea. My question to the Minister: There is one fish plant in the District, or one buyer in the District, who is now buying lobster, who is willing to take round fish out in the short-term. LlO June 12, 1990 Vol XLI Would it round fish short-term, or the operation? option? be possible to allow to be shipped in the until there is a buyer fish plan~ is in Would he consider that Mr.

Speaker: The Minister of Fisheries. han. the Mr. Carte,_r:: Mr. Speaker, tAle will certainly consider any option that will help facilitate l:he f·.ishel"tnen in the area. But I should rernind him that there are regulations prohibiting the shipment of round fish out of the Province. And I think the reason for that is quite obvious, because if you st.c:~t~t allowing fish to be shipped out in an unprocessed state, then what happens to our fish proce ssi ng plants? We need all the r=-tsh WE! can get to keep our own plants operating, and I would be atufu lly reluctant to rescind that regulation.

But I tAJill promise l:o have it investigated . If therE! is anything at all tJJe can do, sho1nt of maybe rescinding that regulation and causing all kinds of havoc in the fishing indus l:ry, I will certainly have a look at it. Mr. Speaker : fhe hon. LhE! Mc::'l'ni:)l:'r' for Port au Port . Min. Hodder: M1~. Speakc:~ln, j.n J.'ight of the Fact that the closurE! oF this fish plant affects the District of Stephenville and the District of St.

George 1 s, and i.n light of the fact that the MinistC::•r has ptnorn:i.SE!cl pub10'ic1y i.n this House of Assembly that he lAJoulcl go to thE· Distt~ic l'.. of Pot~ t au Pot~t. and the Prt:.'rnier· pr'o1rlised on another occasion that the Minister would visit.. thE~ Distr·ict of Port au Port, would the Minister go to the Bay St. Geor·ge arE!Cl and the Pot~t au Port ai"E:•a and h a v c::~ a 1 o o k at. the s· it u at ion for No . 53 RlO

.J himself? Because this has going on and on, and it has resolved, I would like Minister to see it first-hand . Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Fisheries . hon. been to be the the Mr. Carter: Mr. Speaker, certainly it is my intention to visit the Port au Port Peninsula at the earliest possible date. Quite frankly, I am rather encouraged by the prospect that maybe when I do visit, hopefully within a very short period, I might be able to bring good news to the people of the Piccadilly arE!a, that maybe we have found an operator for their plant. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member fo1n Humber East.

Ms Verge: My question is for the Minister of Education . Last week I as ked the Minister if he would dE•fend pa1nents 1 right to have their children attend the school of their choi.ce. I asb~d him, in particular, if he would defend the interests of parents in Corner Brook who, faced t.~.Jith the p1nospect of the Integrated School Board closing S. D. Cook School at the end of this man th, have applied to have their· children attend the nearby Catholic schoo1 but have been refused. The Minister answered last week that that is strictly a school board math~ In.

I ask him notAl iF he has reviewed the law and, if so, if he can confirm that

Section 62 of The Schools Act prohibits school boards from refusing l:.o any child admission to a school, except fo1n Limited circumstances, and in the event of a dispute bE!t.IAJeen parents and the school board, obligates the Minister of 1..] 1 June 12, D90 Vol XLI Education to invest .igate and a determination? Mr. Speaker : The han. Minister of lducation. make th~' Q_t:_:.__. __ ~.P!.r.r.~_IJ. : M r . S p e a k e r , I h a v E· read the Act. and helped wr·it:e the Act, but I do not. rl=~rnernber that particular clause. It seems to rne, Ml".

Speaker, that that clause has something in it which says, 1 if there is no school of the student 1 s denomination in the area ... 1 , but I tAJil1 go and chE•ck that. It may have been amended since that

section was put in some yc::~ars ago, and I tAJill go and do that. In the meantime, Min. SpE~akf:'r, the matter of school attendancE~ in a city is generally the responsibility of the board, and that has been rny posi tton. The boards are lAJorking togel .. hE!In on this issue, and they w:i.1J. resolve this issue, I am sure, in due course. Mr. Speaker: The ho n. t.l ·w ME:!ITII:JE! 1" for Humber East. Ms Verqe: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The Minister should review the l~w .

There was an amendment in 1974, and there is clearly a role For the Mi.nistc:!ln of Education. l ask him, upon reviewing the lAw and finding out wh at I am saying is right, will he intervene in the interE!St of the parents in CorrH:>r' Br·ook to see that they have tho'ir children attend thE ' s choo1 of their choice? Mr. Speake .r: rhe Minister of Education. hon. Din. Warren: Mr. Speaker, afraid I cannot give any comrn:i tment. I tAJ:i .l] rev ·i r:~t.~.J No. 1)3 l thE• arn such the "1. 1

laiAJ, and if there is anything in the law which requires the Ministetn to act, thE~ MinistE!r will Act. It is my understanding, I want to repeat again, that matters of attendance are the responsibility of the school boards, where appropriate schools are there. Often school boards have understandings about the transfer of students from one! school board to the other. I tAJill check it out and report back to the Member on that issue. Mr. Speaker: for Fogo . The han. the Member Mr . Winsor : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Fisheries.

The Minister is aware that the Department of Fisheries has closed the commercial herring fishery for this year. At the request of the Fogo Island Co-operative and some other fishermen in the area, the st:~ason was extended for one week. The Co-op still has markets and the resource is still there in abundance, yet the season is close!d. Is the Minis l:er aware of this, and has he made representation to have it opened for an extended week period? Mr. Speaker : The Minister of Fisheries. han . the Mr . Carter: Mr.

Speaker, again I will have to take that question as notice, and maybe before Question Pc:~t"iod adjourns, I might have an answer to the question. Mr . Speaker: for Fogo . Mr. Winsor: information I right. I had morning with the Mini ster rhe hon. thE:~ Member Min. SpeakE:~r, !:he gave the Minister is a conversation this both parties . WilJ. personally intervene L1.2 June 1.2, 1990 Vol XLI with Fedet"al Fishet"iE!S and get this request in quickly, as the caplin fishc:~ry is sornE! tiAJO IAJeeks ai~.Jay ye t and there is no sir:3n of codfish? The fishermen are requesting the Mini stet"' s petnsonal intervention.

Will he get involved today? Mr . Speaker : The Minister of Fisheries. han. the• Mr. Carter : I certainly have no objection. If the cause is a just one and a ·right one, I have no objection to personally intervening and using what little influence I rnight have on l:he Federal Minister to accedE• to their request . I hope , bE! f o I" e tAlE! leave hE!re this aftE!rnoon, I might have an answer to that question. .t'l__r_ .:.. .. __ ,_,_§..e..e a~ .. ~..r : T h e h o n . t. h E! Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms : Thank you, Mt". Speaker.

My question -.is For the Minister responsible for public libraries throughout the Province. Can the Minister confirm that public libraries throughout the Province will, in fact, because of budgetary cutbacks, have to cJ.ose the:i1" doors for various periods throughout the summer? Mr . SpE!aker: The hon . the Minister of Municipa1 and Provincia] Affairs. Mr. Gul laqe: No, Ml''. ~)pE!akE•t", 1 a111 not aiAJare of any closut"es throughout the SLIITIITIE!I" as a I"E!SU1t of Budget cutbacks. Ml" . Speaker: Th e hon. th E! Opposition House Leader . Mr . Simms : A suppl ement ary, Mr. Speaket".

I do not knotAJ IAJhet "e thE:' Minister has be en. There ha s been No. 53 r-n2

publtc documentatton of tt and, in fact, there was a rnajor interview on CBC one morning . I l: has been confirmed that what public librariE:'S are going to have to do throughout the Province is close their doors For periods of several weeks because they do not have enough funds to pay the employee's sa1aries for those periods of times.

I ask the Minister if he would investigate this matter and, upon finding what I am suggesting is accurate, would he encourage his colleagues in Government to provide whatever assistance is availablt=:! in order to allow those libraries to remain open during the summer time, particularly during this period tJJhen thetne is so much talk about illiteracy? Obviously, it would be a serious problem, and it is. Mr. Speaker: The han. Minister of Municipal Provincial Affairs. the and Mr. Gullage: Mr. Speaker, it would be a serious problem if it tJJas accurate, but tht:' dialogue I have had with thE!

Libraries Board is such that, because of regionalization of the library services, therE '! has been some staff reduction in Central NetJJfoundland. I presume that is the area you at"E:~ talk·.:i.ng about, in particular, but thE!re has been no cutback in services. I will investigate it. and report back to thE:! HoUSE!, but I am not awar·e of any cutback in services. Mr. Speaker: Question Period has E!Xpii"E!cl. BeforE! mov:l .ng to t.he next i tern of business, I would like to welcome to the Speaker's gallery today two former' MHAs, Mr . Ray Baird and Mr. John Me LE!nnon. l1.3 June 12, 1990 Vo1 XLI Some Han.

Members: Hear, hear! Notices of Motion Mr. Speaker: rht~ hon. l:.he Minister of Employnwnt and L.about" Relations. Ms Cowan: Mr. Speakr:'r, I give~ notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill E!ntttled, "An Act. To Arnend 'The Labour Relations Act, 1977, No. 2". (Bil1No. S6). Orders of the Day Mr. Baker: Order 31, Mr. SpeakE!r. Motion, second read:ing of a BiLl., "An Act To Amr:'nd The CornrnissionE:!rs For Oaths Act." (Bill No. 47). The h o n . t he M-i n i s t e ,~ of J u s U. c e . Mr. Dicks: Thank you, Ml" . Speaker .

The Bill before the House is a simple measure which is intended and does in fact allow the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to prescribe fees that the Minister of Justice may chal"ge fot" an appointment or renewal of an appointment as commissioner For Oaths under sections 2 and 3. The Office of Commissioner of Oaths entitl1:;!S an individual, lAJho in many cases does not hold any other official capacity, to witness official documents. lhose individuals often charge Fees themselves for taking signatures on deeds , mo r L gages and so I~ or L h .

We have many of Lhern throughout the Island to enable thE! conniJun·il~y and thE! individuals to bC:' abl.e to get documents wr·· .iLt:en which is general ly necessary for legal documentation, applications to No. S3 Rl3

Government and so forth. The intent of that is because there is a cost to GoVE!rnment in processing the documentation, and that these individuals who themselves, in some cases at least, make some income from it and because it is to some extent deemed to be an honour. It was felt appropriate that we should at the same time be able to prescribe a certain fee that would come close to compensating the Government for the work involved. It is our intent to go forward wi th it . It is par t of our budgetary measures. A simple am endme nt, Mr. Speak er, and I therefo re move second reading . Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Member for Humber East. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This rm~asurE! is Government's increases. the latest in series of Mr. Simms : Hidden increases . the fee Ms Verge : The Minister of Finance is using various means to extract money from the pockets of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. Charging a fee for Commissioner of Oaths, appointments and renewals, is yet another creative way for the Minister of FinanCE! to raise revenue. The Social Legislative Review Committee, of which I arn a member, considered this measure, and we unanimously recommended its approval .

The recommendation was giVE!n on my part on l:he understanding that the Cabinet would set reasonable fees. I believe it is not unreasonable for the Department of Justice to charge a small fee for Comlflissioner For · Oaths Ll4 · JUnE! 12, 1990 Vo1 XLI appointments and renewals. As I understand it this measur e will not impose a f(:'e on Cornrn:issioners appointmE~nts that are ex offic:io. For example, some people, such as Members of the House of AsSE!mb1y by virtue of their offices, are Commissioners for Oaths. It is automatic on attaining the position and no application is necessary.

As I undE!rst:and it this measure will authorize the Cabinet to all.o1..u the MinistE!r oF Justice to collect Fees for those Commissioner for Oaths appointments and renewals that require application to the Department of Justice, and necessitate administrative work within the Department.

When the Minister spE!aks to c1ose this debate on second reading, I would call on him to tell the HousE~ of Ass,;:!mbly, roughl.y, how many applications h:i s Department processes in the run of a yeal~, how much - of a fee the Cabinet anticipates charging, and therefore how much revenu e annually the Government will derive from this lnE:'aSUI"e? Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr . Speaker: The hon . l:.hE! Opposition House LeadPr . Mr . Simms : Mr . Speake r, I just wan t t o h ave a fe1..u wo rds on the. Bi 11, very br iefl y, becaus•'!

I I.~Ja s intrigu ed by wh at my colleague the Me mber Fo r Hu mbe r East exposed in th is B ill. I must confess I ha d not giv en th~~ legislal :ion 111uch thought or consideration at a ll. Il: seE:~I'nE!d ].ike such <:.t rntn or, innocuous little piec e of legislation that i~ wa ~ almost going to s1.ip through wH :.hout any questions. T listened intently to my coLleague. the M~~rnbE'r fol " Humber East, IAJho as altAJ ays does a No. S3 R :1.4 ·

considerable amount of homework, makes a lot of enquiries, and asks a lot of questions behind the scenes, so that she can ask striking ques-tions of the Minister responsible. In this case, she has, and I simply want to re-emphasize the questions she has put, in l:he hope that the Minister would not just get up and slough it off, and to let hirn knotAI that tAle really feel it. is important to knot.~J the information .

The questions related to the fee, surely they must know what the fee will be, and surely they must have estimatE!d some l~evenue in this fiscal year under this category, this fee increase, this hidden fee increase. by the way. another of thE! hidden fee increases that were announced in the Budget by the Minister of Finance, however there were no specifics provided. Government expects to increase various fees and raise a couple of million dollars. I think. $5 million. We have to stl~ugglE! to try and get the Minister of Finance to tell us what fees he is talking about increasing.

Are fishing license fees going up, for fishing penrlits? Is this fee going up, is that fee going up? We do not knoto~J. It is J.:ikr:' pu11i .ng teeth, you cannot get answers from the Minister of Finance. It's only when a Minist:Pr, 1ike t.hE! Minisl:.1:'!r of Justice, has to bring in a piece of legislation to get the authority to charge thE! fE•e, that we Fi na11 y r--ind out. here is another fee that has been increased that: tAle knew nothing about.

The Minister of Finance was not Forthcoming at all during the Budgetary process in telling us. because the Member for Gr·and Bank, and the Member for Mount us June 1.2, 1990 Vol XLI Pearl frequently asked the Minister of Finance what fE·es ar-e you incr·eas:ing and tAle cannot qet any answers. We pick it up bit by bit and here is another example. So, I hope t.hE!

Ministel~ of Just:i.CE! realizes the question from the Member for Humber East is quite serious. and we fully expect that he would have the answer to the question as to what fee tAii.l] b10! chargE•d for a commissione1~ of oaths and how much have you estima~ted in youJ~ budget th:is yeal~ as revenue from the charging of this feE!? And !AJhen will the feE! take effect, for example, i.s it effE•cti.ve retToactiUE!l.y to this fiscal year or is it effective as of the date of this legislation or whatever?

And I was also intrigued by the description given by the Member For Humber East about the ~~x officio Commissioner for' Oaths. and I wonder if the Minister in c1osing the d~':!bate can eJaborate a bit mo1~e. I undE·r·stand sht! rn~:!dns people like . MHAs becaus~=! she mentioned MHAs. Who else falls into the category of ex officio Cormniss ·iont~r for Oaths.

For example, does my secretary Fall into that category. tAJho happens to be cl CorrmlissionE'I~ fo1" Oal:.lls as well, because lots oF U.11ws ME!rnbei"S tAJill . gE•t consti tur::!nls that come to see them to sign documents or whatever, and sornetirnr:•s the Member is not there so my secrE!tal~y has bE!E!Il a Cornrn.isstoneJ" for 0 at h s f o I" a n urn be r' o f y ~:! a~~ s and has often helped out people t.~.Jho neE!ded some kind of signaLL .ll"e on a document to get a passport or whatever the case might be.

So. doE:'s ex officio. and I could E!as:i.ly ask the ME!rnbel~ for· Humber East, but I think it . is 1nore pE!I~ttnent to ask the M·inister of No. 53 Rl5

Justice so he can elaborate for the public 1 s information who else is in that category and is it actually called the ex officio Commissioner of Oaths o1n what it is called, who will not pay the fee and who will have to pay the fee. how much will the fee be and how much you have estimated in your budget for it? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr ,_~ ,e.f.~t§!r: The han. the Member for Humber Valley. Mr. Woodford: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would just like to make a couple of comments on the Bill.

And I would like to stress the importance a Commissioner of Oaths holds in the small communities in this Province, and rural areas of the Province. I do not know if anybody is aware of it or not, but in a lot of the isolated communities in this Provin ce in order to get a document signed, the one I was familiar with was an application for Crown lands. for instance, signed by a Commissioner of Oat :hs and sometimes just a witness, but some of the other leases and grants signed by a Commissioner of Oaths.

And you had to travel even to Deer Lake, so I can imagine what it would cost in other areas of the Province if the re ar e any changes that are not - I do not know, I u.Jould say that they still have the same powers. They are no t changing the powers . But the other th'.ing that I would like to mention is the fact that it says appointment or renewal. Now one of the othE!r areas that tAJas al.tAJays takE!n for granted, and I do not know if it IAJas in

an Act or if it_ IJJas just something in a Municipalities Act or what, but the Mayors in E:~ach comrnun'.ity used to always be automatically a Ll6 June 12, ]_f)90 Vol XLI Commissioner of Oaths and you would get t.hat stamp 1 1n and for thE! Province of Newfoundland 1 • but you had to put it there being Mayo1n of, for instanCE!, Connacl< o1n anywhere else. Does that still remain the same or are they eliminated from becoming a Commissioner of Oaths, and they would have to depend on an appointment or renewal.

Is there going to be a time period once the appointment is madE!, for what period of time, will it be for one year, tl.uo years, ti"H'E•e 01~ five or whatever? Is there a time limit on it? And last but not least, it has been asked by the two previous Members and I echo the sarne comments and ask the same question, what wi11 thE• fE!eS bE:!? I do not think any pe1nson in the community should be inhibited by the amount of fee that would be charged to stop them from becoming a Commissioner of Oaths, because of the importance it ho1ds to small, rural and iso1al:E_,d cornrnuniUes.

So, just a few short questions and maybe the Minister could answer them before he closes the debate . Mr. Speaker: If thE! Mi n:i.stE!r speaks J!OW, he closes thE! debaLe . The han. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Dicks: Thank you, Min. Speaker. I IAJOuld 1tkE~ l:o fi1ns t of all. alleviate the concern uppermost in the hon. Opposition HousE· LE!ader 1 s rni_ncl, and that is. of course, that MHAs thernSE!lVE:~s do not have to pay any fees. I should point out the natu1ne of the appointment i t-.s~~1f. fhere dinE! differe~nt peop1e in thE! Province, No. 1~3 1n6

who by virtue of holding other offices, ar(;' entitled to witness documents. Those included as the han. Member for Humber Valley stated, mayors of communities. Judges can witness documents, as can lawyers and people with other capacities. Ther·e is a list of those individuals in the Registration of Deeds Act. which I do not have with me. Mr. Tobin: Social workers . Mr . Dicks : Perhaps, social workers, as the han. Member suggests. I do not recall that one particularly, but certainly officers of the lalAI, shed .ffs and so forth. Justices of the Peace can also themselves witness documents .

However, this measure is intended to supply solely to those pE!ople who only hold the office of Cornmissionel~ of Oats . If you, as mayor, are r;~nti tlti:~d to regisb:.'r a document, it would not necessarily follow that you w6uld have to become a Commissioner of Oaths, if your office entitles you to witness documents and so forth. Offhand, I am not sure of the situation which the Member indicates, where the mayor in Cormack or Reidville area may have An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Dicks: That. is r·ight.

I just want to point out there is a distinction between becoming a Commissioner of Oaths and having the legal capacity to sign docurnE !nts. So with that it lAJould dept::!nd upon the office. I am not certain at this point tAJhE:~ther mayors themselves get a special Commissioner of Oaths because of that position, which I think to be the case, 01~ if they as an 1_1'7 June 12, 1')90 Vol XLI (inaudible) that role also apply and bec ome Cornmissionel~ of Oaths .

If thr:~ mayo1~s thE!TIISr:~lVE!S have that capacity, which I believt~ they do under The Registration of Deeds A c t , the r e t s no n e e d nor wo u l d they be considered just solely Commissioners of Oaths. In any event, rny recollt~cl:ion of the figures in the Estimate s ai~E· that there are 5,000 Co111rnissionE!I~s of Oath s in thE! Provj_ncE!, C::'ach of lAJhorn hold office for Five years, and that is a rE!nE•i.ual pel~:iod. My recollection is that it is anticipated that approximately 1,000 of these tAlill come dUE! each year.

The fE!E! to bE! chal"gE:!d j s $125, resulting in revenue to the Government of approximately $125,000 per annum. That equates to roughly $25 for each year of the period For which a person is a Commissioner of Oaths. What I will do, howeVE!I", with th E! ME:~ rnb li:~ r s 1 1 eave 1 is f il t=:! in l:. hE! House and table an exact answer to the question with respect to which offices will be affected. I am not certain on the question of mayo1~s. I do knotAI for instance s that Notary Publics, Justices, and lawyers an d those people holding other ca pa cities do not have to pay this fee .

The i=J osition wi th res pect to mayors, I am unclear on at this point, and I wj 11 file an answe r and also table and confi.r·m in thE! House thE! fE!E'!S to bo charged. If there are no other questions? Mr. Woodford: Thoi s Fet:! tA.Joul d bE! for l:hr;~ l"E!rlE!tJJal or the appoin l:ment : of Corr11nissione1~ of Oaths. But lAJhat about t.he Cornrniss :ion of Oaths to th10~ individual, Lo the c]."iE!nU Is there a set fee there? M1~. Dicks : No. M1~. SpeakE:'I", No. 1)3 Rl'l

there is no set fee. Commissioners of Oaths generally can charge any fee they want, many people just do it as a matter of courtesy. I think many lawyers, for instance, who witness documents, despite thE! general perception of the legal cornmunity in the Province, themselves do not always charge Fees either. So it is a matter of whethE!r or not the individual concerned wishes to charge it. We do not pr-escribe a particular fee For a service provided by any Commissioners of Oaths. If I had adequately dealt with the questions, such as I have information at this time, I therefore moue second reading. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On motion, a Bill, 11

An Act To Amend 'fhe Commissioners For Oaths Act, 11 read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the WhoJ.e House on tomorrow. 11 (Bill No. Wl) . Mr. Speaker: Before recognizing the han . Government House Leader to tell Members what we are going to proc eed to next, I would like, on beha lf of han. Members, to welcome to the gal leries today, two classes of Grade VII students from St . Anne 1 s Academy of Dunvi lle, accompan ie d by th eir teachers, Mr . Murphy, Ms Pit tman and Ms O'Rielly. Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Baker: Order 35, Mr. Speaker. Motion, second reading of a Bill, 11

An Act To Ame·nd The Adoption Of Children Act, 1972 11 • (Bill No. 52). The han. the Minister oF Social Services . 1..18 June 1.2, 1.990 Vo1 XLI Mr . Effo1nd: Thank you, Ml~. Speaker. Mr. SpeakE!r, tt·. is u.lith great pleasure that I arn able to introduce this Bill to the hon. House of Assembly. Looking back, over the J.ast numbe1~ of years, there has been very little changes to the Child Welfare Act.

It l~o.Jas, I think, 1972 whE!n the last major changes had taken place, and because of the changes in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Constitution, we certainly need to make some major changes to the Act to meet thr:' neE!ciS of the chiJ.dJ"E:'n of today, and for their protection. This par·ticulal~ Bill, Mr . Speak or, Bi11 No. 52, makes SOlliE! arnendnH:!nts to the present Child We1fare Acl: which are long overduE!, bu L ove1~ the next year, we u.Ji.ll hopefully, introduce a complete revision of the Chtld Welfare Act.

I IJ.Janted particularly to bring this Bill before the House of AsSE!rnbly, especia11y to deal. u.Ji.t:.h the Post Adoption Services. fhE•rE! are a number of other changes in the Act and it is to, as I said, to br·ing it in line with the Charter of Rights and Freedorns and git;es consent if nE!eded fot~ a ch'i.Jd to be adoptE!d. Under the present law, the old lau.1, i l: is just the rnothet~ of the child tJJho has to giVE! consent, but nou.J you can deal tJJi th t.he fa UHH' or the mother, if st•paration has taken place in the family. As I said, M1~.

Speake!~, thE! most. important part oF l:he Act. l:hat I wanted to d t:' a 1 1.o.li t h i s l.o.Ji·H'' r' E• ·:i. t deals with the Pas l.·. Adoption Services. I think the fonnl~'l" Administration had introduced a White Paper on Post Adoption Servict~s and th,:!y had taken :i.l: to the pub1ic format. I att:endE!d a No. 1)3 1ns

number of the public forums whE!r'e the former Minister had introduced the Bill and brought before the public the concerns on the White Paper which he was introducing, and I think the Minister himself, at the time, admitted and realized that what he was introducing or what he was b1ninging forth in the White Paper, lAJas certainly meeting with a lot of opposition frorn the gen.::'ral public, because it created one tremendous amount of fear, not only to the adopted parents of children, but to the adopted children themselves, if this Bill were to be introduced in the House at its full length which the Minister, at the timE! was talking about.

I must commend the Minister that he did take it to the general public, and he did go himself and rneet with all the different groups who expressed their major concerns about what they were talking about, about the concerns that they had and met. I know of one particular meeting that I attended in Halnbour Grace where the Minister at the time, the han. Mr. Brett, met with a number of concerned parents.

I think that particular night, I guess there were probably about twenty-five or thirty parents there, and I: he major concern they had a·t that par•ticular Urn~:~ was, thal : the White Paper tJJas dealing with the fact that at any particular time any natural member of thE:' family - mother, father or relative - could walk into the home. That was thE• glneatE·s t f£~ar they had at that: particular time. They could walk into the horne at any given time and say: look, that's my son, that's my daughter, that's my neph~;;!tJJ Ol" niece or' cousin or whatever, without any real awareness of the adoptive family at all.

That was the fE!ar they held, and the paper really was certainly dealing with that. Ll9 June 1.2, 1990 Vol XLI We have to accept the fact that once you go through the court systE!Hl and you adopt a child, that child is yours. You adopt a child and the court awards you this. You take the same Full responsibility for an adopted child as you would if l:hat child was born of your own flesh and blood, that 1 s a nal:ural t:hing. You accept total and full responsibility.

Now to tell a parent, when that child reaches the agE! of four, Fi1Je or· six or any age, that out of the blue, somebody could walk in to your house and say: Hi, this is my child and I want to carne and I want to see it - a total disruption. The f~:."'al" those people encounter at l:.hat t:i.me wou1d cletEH' anybody From ever adopting and it would destroy a lot of farrr:i.liE!S. And at the same timE~ you have to be considE!rate. And I think the adoptive parents recognize this.

You h a v e to c o n s i d E! r t h a t at s o tTl~ '! point in time adopb:!d 'individuals might like to know their family membiO:!rs, and ptnobably, lJJhE!n l:.hey bE!COrTIE! of age, they rnJ.ghl like to meet them, and be interested in their family heritage or whatever. Well tAle had to be I"E!Spons".i.b1e ancl the DeparttnE!nt ilad to be lnE!SponsiblE!, and take a ]ook at this paper and to see what. we could do.

So after becoming Minis tt"?.r last year r mEd: tAli l:h Lhe officials of my Department., because I had some prior infol"rnation and some concE•Inns IAJhE:•n the former Minisb::>r, Mt". 13r~C!Lt, introduced it in the House of Assembly. W1::• discuss<:•d il:. on sevE!ra1 occastons, and I had been aiAJar<:! of lAlhat t~,Jas :in it because I had atl:.E!rldE•d several rTll~·~:·Li.ngs. He expressed to rne personally that he had somE! grr:'at concE~r'ns about i.t . I can understand the pos i I: :ion he Look at l:.hE! time. Aftetn hE• No. 1)3 1n9

introduced thE:' paper he was l::aken out or the post or moved to another post. I arn not sure why it was not followed up. But anyway after being appointed Minister of Social Services we discussed ·this at great length in the Department, all the officials; the Director of Child Welfare; the deputy minister level, the executive level; and all the people responsible . We even talked to the social workers in the Child Welfare area, and we discussed it at some great length.

And I met and talked with numerous groups around the Provinc e by phone, and I heard from them, in fact, when the people knew that I was ready to introduce this bill into the House of Assembly, I did get a lot of pl1one calls. And I must say out around rny area, in Conception Bay where I liue, there is a large number of adoptive parents whom I met personally with, on an individual basis, and two or three together and they expressed the same concerns. And I have also met with a number of adult adoptees who expressed to me their concE:~lnns about this paper and what should be done.

So I lJJanted to get the bill introduced in the House, and I wanted to. make surE:~ that lAJe were doing it for the best interest, not only of the children or the adoptive parents, but the natural parents. Everyone 1 s concerns have to be addressE:'d because you cannot bar out one group in favour of another group without using some good rationalization and som e good logic about this whole thing. Because I can just imagine being a parent myself if I today had to put a child up for adoption because of some reasons, emotional or stress or sickness or L20 June 12, 1990 Vol XLI whatever.

Later on down the road. if I wanted to find my child, there must be one tremendous emotional strain for any individual to have to go through . And we have to realize Fo r an y- number of reasons, beyond any individual• s control, that that could take place in hundrE!dS and hundreds of cases, not only in the Province, but anywhe!re in l:he country . It happens many, many times that single par ents have to give their child up for adoption, and probably through no fault of their own. So we had ·to take a look at how it was affecting each and every person .

And we wan l:ed to address it in a way where everybody could at least have some consolation knowing that their concerns lAJere being address1:•d, <:~nd at some point lJJe could anSlAJEqn a11 there questions. So we talked and we debated and we asked and we have listened to everybody 1 s vielJJS, and tAJhat :is in this bill is the consE•nsus that I think best satisfies and best answers the que stio ns of all of the peop le. And our main concern. of course, must be for the adopted children themselves.

So it reads here that the adopted person can find the information an d seek out their natural parents and their brothers and sisters or relatives. An Han. Member: (Inaudible). t1I .. ~----.. ···--LE..f..9..r. .. 9. : Y e s , I h d. v e n o problem with that, because I agree with you. The words there say • The Minister may Oln rnay no L. 1 And I do not think l:hat should be left up to the MinistE•r at a lAJhirn t.o say, lAJell I arn not goinq Lo do it or I wi11 do it. I agreE! lAdth you.

When it was brouqht to my attE!ntion, tAJhen we put those wo1nds in there , it lAJa s not l: hE~ in t. c~ n t. ion to give thE:~ Minister a par·ti.cuJ ar No. r:i 3 1~20

amount of power at any time. I totally agree lAiith you. So what it should read is that, 'The Minister shall Ol'l the request of an individual give the information.' And I agree t.~.lith you on that. I have no problems lAiith changing that particular wording. That certainly adds to the ability of the adopted person to get their information; we know now, by putting that word in, there will be nothing standing in the way.

So, it is considered that the adoptive parents now can accept this piece of legislation because they know there is no fear of tht:'!ir lives being thrown into turmoil at some point in time without prior warning and without their being informed. They know now that the adopted child can seek information and have it accessible to them once they reach adulthood, the age of nineteen. One of the major problems over past decades was that there was never enough information kept on fi.le. That is one thing we, in the Department of Social Services have to be responsible for.

We must make sure that all information is kept on file, accurate and accessible. But we can't answer for the past two or thtnee decades as to why that wasn't done. A problem we have now in thE! DepartrnE:~nt is that. we have a nurnbE!r of people who must do a great deal of work on the files, compiling information and making sure that, as much as possible, we research, gather inforrnaU.on and get all the files as accurate and as up-to .. -date as we can. Now, i.t i.s going to be one tremendous workload, but it must be done.

The one thing we can ensure today is that all the information in the files of any L21 June 12, 1990 Vol XLI child up for adoption is accurate. And, outside k E!pt the keeping of basic information on children and on family history and the Membetn fotn St. John's East and I had a brief discussion on this - we do it fotn heaJ.tl-1 reasons. I mean, we haVE! ~:o be very considerate of what could takE! plac~O! in future, and !Ale must have all the information accurately, and confidE!nt ·:i.a11y, I might add, on file. If it neE!dS l:o be accessed by any ·Farnily member, it shouJ.d be there.

So, as Minister of Soci.a1 Services, I am, as I said earlier, pleased to introduce this Bill . But it :is not enough to ":introduce it. in the HousE! of AssernbJ.y, unless the work leading up !:o it and the follow-up work is done accurately, ensuring that informati.on is readily available t o p r o v i d e s orne c o rn f o r L F o r l: h e families involVE!d, the natured parents, the adoptivE:• parE!nts and the children, themselves, should they, at any point, tAJ:ish to access the infotnmation. M r . S pea k e r : The h o n . t he Me rn be I" for Burin - Placentia West. Mr. Tobin : Thank you very much, Mtn.

Speaker . I lAJOuld likE~ to rnakr::• a fE!tAI comments. Number one, [ a111 very familiar with this piece of legislation before the House, because I was involved with it when I was Minister ol Social Services. I have some objections I IAJant to rnake. I certainly want to compliment the Department for putting wor·k and effort into this for the past couple of years. However, ther·e is an Adoptive Parents Association and other No. 1)3 I~ 21

groups and individuals out there in thr: 1 Province who, I honestly beli eve, should have been given a copy of this legislation so that they could look at it and give their views on it. I am disappointed the Department did not do this . Mr. Efford: Would you repeat that? Mr . Tobin : I said, I honestly believe the Adoptive Parents Association should have been given a copy of this so they could have input. I believe my colleague from Carbonear will be addJ"essing that. 'in a minute, as concern about it was raised in Committee recently. I re me mber, Mr .

Speaker, th at a s Ministe r o f Soci al Servic es, I m et IAJi th th ese gr oup s, as, I am sure, the pre sent Minist er ha s don e, peop le who will be af fec te d by this le gis lat ion. I see the Bill, basically, in h .. Jo stages. The fir st stage deals primarily with the legalitie s and oHH,~r things, but from

Section 2.22(1) to the end, Mr. SpE!aker·, is the part with which I have some difficulty. Now, I hear·d the Mi niste r sa y, in res po nse to a ques tion fro m my colle ague fro m Humber Eas t, l:hat he is pr epared to s u b s tit u t e the wo rd ' s h a 11 1 f o r the JJJO r d 1 ma y ' . I d o n ' t k now wh at the pr ocedu re is for that . I a m sure the Government House Leader do es . The Minister is prep ar ed to cha nge the wo rd in Se ctio n 22(2 ) that re ad s, 'P re sently the Min iste r ma y auth or ize the re lease of inf orma tion con tai ned' , h e is now prE•pal"E!d to change it to 'shall' .

So I don't know if thE! Minister An Han. Memb er: At Committee stage . 1..22 June 12, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Tob in: At Cornrn:itLN· stagE:' th at tAJi.ll be dealt wi.l:.h . I am deli .ght ed thE• Mtni stE!r ha s a <Jre E~ d to that, Mr.

Speaker, not that I wouldn't trust the Minister to release the information, it puts a tremendous amount of responsibility on the shouldE!rs oF anyone who will be Minister in the present or future, v..Jhen some of ficials will wan t him to rel ease it, other officials will be advising they shouldn't J"e1eas~:! it; but if i.t is exp1icit heJ "e, thE!n the res pon s ibi 1 i. ty would no L lie with the MinistE!r l:o 1nake that type of decision. I als o h ad the oppo rt unit y to meet Dr. Sachd ev o f t he Univ ersity and to read the b ook prepared by hirn. I think it is ca lle d Un lo cking the Fil es, Mr. Sp eak er.

I must say I had a great deal of respect for the go od doct or wh en I was (Inaudibl e), and I must say I found hi s book rath er interesting. He went Further in his rE!COITimE ~nd e:\tions, I bE!li.eve, than most people in th e Departm ent wc :~r e prepared to embrace at. that . pa rti ctJlar time when I tJJa s !:here , but he di d mak e so me very good po int s. Wh at is happen ing her e is a diffic ult situatio n becau se you hav e some pe ople who are going to become extreme ly protective ov er the in fo rma ti on , and you have othe r p eop le who for som e re ason have no problem s wil :h i·l:.

Th e:~re may be a case wher e an adopted child seeks out his pa re nt s and one day walk s up to th Edl" clooJ" ancl says, I would like to meet my na tura l m other, in a fam i.ly wh ere nobody kne w that an adop l:ed child existe d . T hat is th e balance tha t has to be s·tr uck in this, and I thi nk it has bee n, al t1'10ugh there is some argument. I IAJoul d have loved, and I say to the M:l.n'i ste1n of Social Services in all sincerity, I IAJould r(:'a11y IAJ'.ish No. 53 R22

that the Adopted Parents Association had to have a look at this and then make their recommendations back to the Social Policy Committee. I believe there is basically an agreement tAJith the Social Policy Comrni t tee, and I want this on the record, I want this put on the recol"d, Ml". Speaker, that the only way I am going to give my support to this piece of legislation is based on a commitment from the Minister, and which the Chairman has from the Deputy Minister, and that is that this fall the1"e wi 11 be a new Act coming before the Legislature to deal with adoptions.

I believe the Minister has made that commitment to us. Mr. Efford: A new Child Welfare Act. Mr. Tobin: That l."lill deal tAli t h this aspect as well . Ms Uerqe: (Inaudible) new Adoption Act as well. Mr. Efford: This is going to be incorporated into the new Act. Mr. Tobin: So, the Minister is saying that what we passed today lAii11 be incorporated inl:o the nelAI Act, and the new Child Welfare Act will not make any changes to lAJhat we pass hE•re today? That is not what I have be~~n told by my colJ.eaguP. Mr. Efford: (Inaudi.b1e) . It all depends on Mr. Tobin: fhat is not what I tJJas "told.

I was not told that there tJJould be an amendment. I t;Jas t:old by my colleague for Carbonear, the Chairman, and my colleague for Humber East, the Uice ···Chairperson, I was told by these two people, L.23 Junf~ 12, 1990 Uol XLI Mr. SpE!aker, that this Act wwJ.d be dealt with in greater detail in thE! faJ.1., and that thE!I"E! IAJOUJ.d be a new Act corning in. I assured both of them that I had some concerns as it relat:E!S to the extent that this goes and the amoun·t of input that: . is into it. I feel that there should be more. Mr. Hogan: (Inaudible) told . Mr.

Tobin: That is not what I IAJas told and l:he MC::'mbE!I" for Placenl:.ia does not know what I was toJ.d because he was not thE!r~ :! when I IAiaS told it, Some Hon. Members : Oh, oh! Mr. Tobin: That is not tAihat. the -·-·-----···-----··-Minister just said . Mr. Reid: A point of order, Mr . Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Carbonear on a point of order . Mr. Reid: A point of infonnation, Mr·~·-spe -aker. There sE!(:>rns t:o be some misunderstanding here.

The commitment that has been made from the DE!par·trnE!nt of Socia1 Sei~uicE!S, basically, is they tAii.l.l try thE'! ir utmost for the fal] of this year to present to this House a new Act, and within that netAI Act the whole question of adoptions will be dealt with. If that is Lhe case, and the Legislative Review Committees are stLIJ. intact, and 1 believe they will be, then our Legislative Review Committee will deal with the Act 0 I belieVE'! l:he hon.

Member fOI" Hurnbe1" East, and myself, IJJere g.iven that assurance, and that is the rea son IJJhy I rnadE· that promise l:o you, or I rn<:'tde that comment, to the han 0 ME!rnbel" for Burin - Placentia West. Mr. Speaker : A point of No. r:>3 R23

clarification. The hon. thr:~ Member for Burin Placentia West. Mr. Tobin: Personally, what I would 1ike to do, is take this netAJ Act, and I know that t.ime does not permit, and I know the Minister and the Department are anxious to get it on, and I know it wi11 not s clue, by the way, near the number of enquiries that the Minister has right no w, but it will go a long way to solve the mos t of it . So I guess we cannot hang up that type of progress, because it will solve most of them. But it will not solve all of the inquiries that the Minister has .

But what I would like to do is to have the opportunity, I am sure we lAiill over the summer, to sit down with the Adoptive Parents Association when the new act comes in, and I think that is very important, and also I think it is uery important that the Members read the book by Dr. Sachdeu, Un1ocking The Files. An Hon . Member : (Inaudible) . Mr. Tobin: No, no I am no t talking about the Minister, I am talking about the Social Policy Committee Members. I think we should do th at, and I belie ve we should meet !Ali th them an d probably, Mr .

Speaker, the Minister of Social Services may be kind enough through his officials to set up some sor t of a me etin g for the Committ ee as we moue into it, some sort of a mee ti ng with adop tees that may be wi lli ng to sit do wn wi th us, in private, to di sc uss some of their con ce rns about it. I do know when I was Minis te r I met with some of the se in div iduals t.!.lho want ed to come in and meet wi th us privately, and I L211- June 12, 1990 Vol XLI am surE! that the deputy rninisb:~r and the director will probably have the names of these people and I LI.Jould appreciate i.t:. i.f thE!

Minister would try to ar·r·ange for us to have that meeting. But, Mr. Speaker, I think when you look at this bi1L lAJhile I b(;!1iE!UE! there will be certain groups out there who will argUE! that it dor:-s not go far enough, there rnay be some out there who will say it goes too far. But I doubt that. But I bE!lieue there will be some out there t.!.lho LI.Ji.ll argue t.hat it does not go far enough.

It wi.11 not solve, and I tJ..Iill repeat that, it tAJill not soJ.ue Uw anst.•.IE:!l~s to all of the inquiries that the Minister has on his fiJ.e in l:E!rrns of people who are searching out their adoptive parenLs or' nat.ura1 parents who are searching for their adopted child . But 1 would ask the Hou se to look seriously at this be causH it lAJill solve som e of the problem . There is no doubt about that. 11: will solue some of it. An d I hav e no difficul ty now that I am aware, and the Minister has com mitted here today, that the re tJ..Iill be a new act ready this fall.

But we tAJill take the Minis ter's wor·d fo r it, and we w:i 11 give him the benefi t of the doubt, and hop efully we can have it the fall. Mr . S p eak~r. if the Mi nister does no t bring it Lo Lhe House this fall, l wi ll not ~et int o that, beca use I will gi ve him the benefit of the doubt and look fo rward to it. Some Hon . Members : Hear, hear! ~r . Speaker : The hon . the Membe r' for Carbonear . Mr . Reid: I ·----------·---·--makE! a couple No . 1)3 would ju st like to of brief cornnH:>nts . I~ 2 4-

I am known to stand and give credit where credit is due and this is another· case tAJheJ"e I have to do that. I have to apologize first of all to a number of groups in the Province that. we have already informed that they would have some input into this particular

section of the act. And we all realize in the House what happened I guess and the fact that thE! House t.~.Jill be closing, I hope, or at least, I hear tomorrow, and we would not get time to deal with the Bill. With that in mind yesterday the hon. Member for Humber East and myself got together, and under her recommendation and with agreement from mysE!lf, and as well as from the Member For Burin ·- Placentia West and other Members of the Committee, we fc:!lt that because of the urgE•ncy of this particular matter we should deal with the Bill.

WE! were told in Committee that over 1,000 people would be abJ.e to avai1 almost imrnediately, or as soon as the Minister could set up the necessary people, we felt to make these people wait until the fall wouJ.d be, 1 guess, not only detrimental to their health, as our hon. colleague for St. John's East mentioned some time ago, but only to cause mol"E! torment to a lar·ge number of people in the Province.

And I haVE! to say hi:'re that this particular process that we went through in the last forty-eight hours within the Legislative Review Cornm:i .tteE! and JJJith Members of both Government and Opposition, is an indication that thE! Legislative Review Committees are working, because without this process and t.~.Jithout a Legislative Review Committee in placE! to deal tAiith this particular issue, I do not think that this Bill would I 2 5 June 12, 1990 Vol XLI have made it to the floor today . And I would like to take the opportunity to thank my vice chairman from Humber East, aJ.so the hon.

Member from Burin-Placentia and all the Committee Members who understand, I believe, the urgE!ncy of this, and at the same time apologize to those pE!Ople in t.hE! Pl"ovince who tJJill, I guess, hopefully have further input into this process later on whE!n the new Act colfles forward. I ·thank the hon. Member' most sincerely from Humber East for her cooperation on this. Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker: The hon. thE.~ Mtc'Jnbel" for Humber East. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr·. Speaker.

I am rising to expr~~ss rny suppor ·l fo1" th'is BiLl. . 1 believe it represents l::h1nee major improvements in the Province's adoption legislation . I am inclinE!d to think that tJJe shou1cl have furthc~r amendmenl:s to th~) Act and I arn glad · to hear the Minisl:E!r's pledge thal: he tAii.ll prepare a revised Adoptions Bill and have it ready for the House sitting in the Fall. As the Member for Carbonear who chairs the Social Legislative Review Committee just saJd, the Review Committee had one meeting on this B:i.Jl.

The Birl tAJi: 'ts nol. printed or distributed until the 1ast fet.~.J days, so theJ"E:! tAlr.ts l.jJTt(:• for l:he Review Cornrnittee to ~h'tVE• only onE! rn~ ~eting on the B:i.11 . That took p1ace 1ast rhursclay, and d u r i n g t h a t s e s s i o n t. h e C o rrmr.i. t L e e heard from senior officials of the Department of Socia] Services as tJJe11 as the Department oF Justice J.atJJyel" who does tAJor·k fol" the Dt::~pal"trnenl: oF Social SE!rv·ices 1H1d who is invoJ.ved in drafting, No. ")3 I~ 2 1)

especially thE! fil~st pa1nt of this Bill . After listening to them and having an opportunity to question them I became convinced that their is considerable urgency attached to this measure . The Committee Members felt that we should really have public consultation about the contents of the Bi11, but we realized that time is running out.

And when faced with a choice of passing the Bill now so that literally hundreds of individuals around the Province, who are anxiously awaiting these new measures, will get practical benefit from the provisions on the one hand, and on the other, interested people having a chance to meet IAiith our Committee, I personally came to the conclusion, that given ·that difficult choice, it is better to move ahead with the passage of the Bill. Having made that conclusion I recognize that there already has been quite a bit of public consultation about proposals for changes to our Province 's adop tions legislation.

As the Min ister sai d wh en he introduced the Bill, a coup le of years ago the previous Government, of which I was a Member, published a discussion paper laying out alternatives for reform of our Adoptions Law, in particular for opening up adoptions information for, iF you like, liberalizing adoptions information -· small '1' liberalization. Mr. Chairman, in the last severa l mon th s I have had several calls from people who are desperately se ek ing information ab out their bio logical relatives .

Two of the calls came from people who most acutely want to have medical inforrnati.on about t.heir natural 1.26 June 1.2, 1990 Vol XU relatives. They and the others who have contacted me also For emotional reasons, VE!ry to know the identity biological relatives. much of want thr ;!ir At least two of these people are conduct in g th ei r own pr ivate searches for in forma tion , since the pres ent law and policy of the 'Provincial Gov ernment is suc h that the Department of Social.

Services simply passively receives requests fo r in formation , requests From either adoptees or from biological paren ts who pl aced their children for adoption . The Department does not act on those requ1:!sts unless it receives matching n~quests fl~om the other parties. That policy is not we11 known. ThE! I~E!SUJ.t i.s that the Department facilital:es very few matchE!S. One of the provisions of this Bill provides that adult adoptees, adoptees ninetec~n and over, wiJl bE• able to request from the Department of Social Services information about their biological parents.

The Min ister · shall, assurn:i.ng Lhe sugges te d amendment i. ~ ado pted, th en give the adult adoptee the nonidentifying info rmation that is in the Depar tme nt • s files. In the case of identifying ·informal ~ion the Minister shall provide the information upon obtaining the consent of the party or parties being identified. I interpret that to IIK!f.~n l:hal : oncE• an aduJ.t adoptE!E! ~~oes lo l:.he Departmen t of Social Services asking for information, the Department then, on a confide ntial basis, will approach the biologi cal mo ther or biologi cal relatives.

Only if those par ties consent, only if they conse1it, will the Departm ent then disclose, to the adult adop te~ maki ng the req ues t, the nam e or names. No. 1)3 IV6

I support that, Mr. Speaker. I think that is a positive reform in the Province 1s adoption law. I believe it is supported by research that has been conducted by -psychologists and social workers. I have read Dr. Sachdev 1 s Report. Now some of the research findings, of which I am aware, substantiate even more sweeping refor·ms in the law. Sorne of the research data support an even more active policy of Government facilitation of information exchange and of introductions .

I would hope that the overhaul of the adoptions legislation, that the Minister and his staff are working on now, will include a canvas of those research findings, and will present furthr::~r changes that will permit greater disclosure of information. I would hope the Legislative Review Committee will be able to examinE! provisions for even greater disclosure of inforrnaU .on.

The Committee will definitely hold public hearings on the proposed overhaul of the whole Act, and through that process the Committee Members wi11 be able to meet t.~lith and question experts in the field, researchers, psychologists, social worke1ns, and individuals who have been personally involved in adoptions in various ways. Mr. Speaker, one of the reforms I hope the n1':!W Bill, the ove1nhaul of the lAJhoJ.e Act, wilJ include, is a requ·irement that l~he Department of Social Services acquire all available medical information about biological relatives of a child placed for adoption.

FurthermorE•, that thai~ informat.i.on be given to th1:>. adoptive parents when the adoption is being arranged. Another advocate L27 lnE!form is to that I would facilitate the June 12, 1990 Vol XLI provision of medical information with respect to adoptions arranged in the past, where that information is not now in the Department 1s files. One of the cases that has come to my attention involves an adult adoptee, now married wi ·th her own children, who has a serious medical problem .

Her doctors, who are trying to diagnose her condition, believe that her natural family 1s medical history would be extremely helpful. The adult adoptee has been dealing with thE! Departrnr::'nt of Soc:iaJ. Services and she has received from the Post Adoption Services division of the Department, the information that is in the Department files, however, that information is very scanty and what she and her doctors ne(•d is an approach to the biologicaJ. mothE!r or othe1n natur·al lnelatit;es and/or their doctors.

The Department now is paralyzed. be c au s e the c u n~ r::~ n t 1. at.~.J and p o Li c y don 1t allow the staff to take ·those further steps. Th~::' cul"n'nt policy evidently is prohibiting the staff frorn init.i.at:ing even a confidential search For the medical information. To satisfy the aduJt adoptee 1s needs, it wouldn 1 t be nc::'C<'!S sal"Y to give her the names of her biological parents or relatives. What she needs most acutely is, simply the medical history of the biological farnily.

So I bring that. to the attention of l:.he Minister in the hopE! that j n his work to more comprehensively overhaul thr::' Act, hE• t.~li.ll incorporate l~hosl>. issues and those needs. The othE!ln provisions oF lh:is B:i.ll, Mr. Speaker ·- I rnent:ion l:.her·e are thr·ee main pr·ovis :i.ons. · The ot:hE·r· No. 1)3 I~ 2 7

provisions are; No. 1. Measu1nes to comply with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in recognizing the interest of unmarried fathers in adoptions proceedings. The Department and their legal advisers have adopted a prudent cour sP. in drafting this amendmen t. They have learn ed from the experience of other jurisdictions of Canada, that ac te d more quickly after the com ing into force of

Section 15 of the Charter in 1985 , and amended their adoptions legislation to giv e unmarri ed fathers exactly the same rights as married fathers. Unfo rt unately and sadly, pra ctical probl ems resulted , because some unmarried fathers have absolutely no interest in their offspring and flee the scene, once they learn that their partners have become pregnant. In those kinds of situations some infants had to spend much too long in foster homes before final arrangements could be made for adoptions, than should have been the case.

This amendment adopts the practical middle course of recognizing the rights of unmarried fathers, but only those unmarried fa thers who have demonstrated an interest in the child they have fathered, and I support Lhat practical app1noach to a very real problem. I believe the approach adopted, recognizes that in adoption proceedings, the interests of the child are paramount. final major The third and provision of the possible for the Social Services to care subsidies to parents of a child. goes on to explain, with special needs.

Bill, makes it Department of provide child the adopting The Minister to a child Actually, I 1_28 June 12, 1990 Vol XLI wasn't aware that this wasn't done automatically all along, but I certainly feel that the law should be clear in allowing the Government to make the same provisions for adoptees as for all other children. In conclusion then, Mr. Speaker, I believe these amendments to the Province's adoptions leqislat:ion are good, I believe th E:'Y are important and I have no hes itation in supporting the pri nci ple of the three major provisions of the Bill.

I arn inclined to think that therE! should be furthE!r lnE!forrns to the adoptions law, and I t..~Ji.11 be eagerly awaiting the Bill incorporating all lhe overhaul of the Act. I arn J.ooldng FortAJard to the Legislative Review Committee analyzing that and holding pub1i.c hearings on it. Now I lAiilJ. addlness thE· p1nacti.caJ aspects of implementing the Bill. One of lhe three provisions, namely, the liberalizing of the provision of adoptions information, requires more staff within the Department of Social Services For proper administration. Mr. Efford: That is taken care of .

Ms Verge : The Minisl:Hr' is saying it is taken care of. The Minisb:or's staff, lAJho ITIE!t L\Jith the Legislative Revie1.v Cornrnit.leo, told us t ha t it wi ll be po ssi ble fo r the Po st- Adopt io ns Division to get extra social work er s an d staff within a matter of months. The y gave us the impress ion that it woul dn't be un ti l the fall that they wou ld be able to get exlra staff and that stan ds to reason, because , after all , the position s hav e to be cr eate d and class ified, the Pub lic Service Commission has to advertise cind once the staff No. 53 1,2 8

are recruitE!d and hitnE!d, they haVE! to be trained. However, the officials told the Committee that, even with the existing staff, they will be able to make a dent in the long lis·t of applications. They have identified about twenty-five or thirty of a very long list of approximately 1, 000 as cases deserving priority attention. So it IAJas really on hearing that informaU.on that I decided it was mo1ne important for us to gE!t on with passing these amendments and having them in force, than to delay the passage until November to allow the Review Committee to have public hearings.

The final clause of lhr:' that the provisions of come into force until proclaimed by Bill says it don't a date the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, the Cabinet. Oln I would suggest to the Minister that to serve his interests and his Department's needs, it would be preferable to drop that cJ.ause so that the Bill will come into force immediately it receives Royal assE!nt, which should be within the next coupJ.e of weeks. From my own exp(>rience as a Minister, these deJ.ayed proclamation provisions often unnecessarily protract the coming into force of valuable law reform.

So it t~o.JOuld be rny recommendation, after having heard from the officials of the Department of Social Services, that that. final cJ.auSE! be dt"opped and that these amendments come into force as soon as the Lieutenant-Governor comes into this Chamber and gives Roya1 assent to the Bill. With those concluding remarks. Mr . L29 JunE:' 12, 1990 Vol XLI Speai<E!r, I uJill sit down and aJ.low my colleague from St. John's East to contribute to the debate. MJ". Speaker: ThE! hon. the ME!mbE!r for St. John's East. Ms Duff: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have no wish to go into this in any great detail.

There are a couple of points. I think one of them c~rtainly would be for clarification, which the Minister can address in his closing l"ernarks. I have a par·ti.cul<H' interest in this as an adoptive parent, and I was part of the process, I guess you would call it, of consultati.on on the White Paper, through the Adoptive Parr:~nts 1 Association.

I arn VE•I~y glad to hear that., in fact, t:.his is not the end of it, but that this is an amendment which will then be part of an overhaul of The Adoptions Act, and I think that will bE! thE! appropriatE• t.:itTIE' fat·' further consultation with many people, including the Adoptive Parents' Association. Basically, I fully support those arnE!ndrnE!nts. I undE!I"stand t.hE!l~E! '.is some urgency in bringing 'l:htc'l'n forward as a separate amendment, and I have no problem with that. In

Section 2.22 it. indicates an adopted person tJJho is nineteen years of age may apply to the Minister for the release of information contained in his or her file, or For· inforrnation about other parties to thE! adopti .on, and tht:'n that is qua1ifiE:'d, that that does not include identity. I ask the Minister if there is any provision - perhaps 'the cut"rent Act -· in medical necessity, information about thet~~~ "i.s in the casE! of for· medical the adoptive parents of a child to be rl':'!lE:'aSE!d No. 53 [U9

to the adopted parents in cases of medical need. That is already (inaudible), because a chi1d under 19, in fact, could have need to access medical information. The other comment I would like . to make is respecting

Section 23. I think that is a very enlightened amendment. There are, I think, numerous cases. Particularly it happens with foster parents who become very attached to foster children, oftentimes children who are hard to adopt, and who wish to adopt them but do not have the financial circumstances to do so. So I would commend the Minister on this part of the legislation.

In dealing, again, t~o.li th the perhaps it is more appropriate in the second round of the full overhaul - the question of medi cal information, the situation may well have improved since the days when I was adopting a child, but the medical information that is currently available is very sketchy and I would hope that in future adoptions a better effort would be made to compile more accurate information on family history of a child to be adopted. particularly medical information, so that these files when they are accessed can be more useful .

And I would support the comments of my colleague fr'om Humber East in the question of rnore staff in the whole adoptions area. particularly in adoptions counselling and the post -a doptions area. I feel, at t he moment. unless it has im prov ed in recent years. that there should be more guidance given to adopting parents on such things as how to deai appropriately tJJi th the question of disclosur'e to the chi1d. You hE!ar horror stories about hotJJ this is handled, which can cause 1_30 June 12, 1990 Vol XLI tremendous tr aum a later in life.

There should be a longer period of follow -up, because th ere are things that parents adopting a ch ild need to be aware of and , I think. along the lines need some guidance; there are some differences between having your own child and adopting a child. With those few comments I would cornrriend the M1.n1.ster on thr:•se amendments and look forward to the full overhaul, wh'ich w111 cornE• to us in the fall . Mr. Speaker: The hon. thE! Minister of Social Set"vi.ces. IF the Minister spt':!aks now, he closes the debate. Mr. Efford: Thank you, Ml". Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I never thought I wouJ.d be ab1e to sit i.n the House of Assembly and hear such kind t~o.Jords. The Membet" fol" St. John's East, I did not 9et overexcited about, because I knew she wou ld do it. But th e Member for Humber East, I am almost ready to go over. sit down. and have a chat with her. An Han. Member: Don • t gE~ t cal"l"ied away! Mr. Efford: I said almost . Dr. Kitchen: Don't -·········-···-·----·---··· ···-··-·- away. You know honey flies than - get carried catches more Mr. Efford: So, I have to b''! ni ~CE! now. I have to leav Eo! llliJ poi c k le book in the drawer for a while.

Just to touch on a couple of points, I do not know if the ME!rnbet" for Buri.n _., Placentia WE!~;t understood E!Xactly. fhE· Mernber for Hurnbel" East did, and t:ho Member for St. John • s East. a11d I want to ta1k to Lhe Member for' No. 1)3 lBO

~ · Burin - Placentia West about that. Understand that this Bill very clearly states that no information can be given to anybody without the consent of all parties. So if the natural parents put information on file and they do not consent to give that information, then the adoptee, at the age of 19 or over, cannot access that. So ther·e has to be an agreement. So understand that that was very clearly considered by the Department in consultation with the community at large.

The only other comment I want to make to the Member for Burin Placentia West is that we did review all information given to the Department by all groups concerned - all information. It was not done at the meetings within the Department of Social Services, a11 th10:~ members in the community, the adoptive parents, individuals, adoptees, the association, the whole community at large had submitted written briefs to the Department over the years and all those were considered in bringing thi s pape1n fo1nwa1nd. There were a couple of concerns expressed by the Member for St.

John's East and the Member for Humber East about more staff because there are a lot of applications pn•sentJ.y on file, 1,000 applications . Once this information gets out in the co mmun it y. the n the requ est s are go ing to sky rocket . The re is no questio n abo ut that. We are rea dy to put jn place s om e people to dea l wit h this. We kno w an d we exp ect tha t there is going to be a lar ge numb er of app li cat ion s to fil l, so we kn ow the urgency of getti ng this inform at ion pa ss ed th roug h the House and · gett ing the Ul June 12, 1990 Vol XLI people in place, the pro pe ,~ 1 y trained people.

There was a conCE!rn ~:!xpressed about - I do not know if you would put it as training, but working with adoptive parents for a period of time, some counselling and some talking to the parr:·nts . You ar·e quite r·ight in that when you a1ne adopting a child thE•1· ··E~ ai"E:' a lot of fears, moreso than when you have borne your own c hi 1 d . WE! understand that, we have talkc :•d it over in the Department, and we have taken some steps toward moving in that dtrection .

I haVE! talked to some parents myself over the last few years, especially this Y~C 'ar, sinc e:< becoming Minister, and they exp1 nessecl somE! clear views they had when they adopted their child1nen. So it is only natural that. we put sornE!th :i.ng in place. I, and evel'·ybody in the Depcuntm f!nl of Soc-tal Services, are as equal.ly concern ed about medical i n for· mat i o n as t h e Me rn be r f o 1~ S t John's East.

The netJJ B·il1, ~..o~JhEH1 it is overhauled completely, tAri.ll addre ss al l th E• con cc:!rn s about: t.he medical infor·mal~ .ion l:hat should be kept on ·FiJc,~. confidE!n l:.ially so. until it. is needr ?d by either the parents or by th e chi .1dr en. ~v e arr:! awa1ne of that . and it lAd 1.1 be:! addressed in fu1l, hopefu11y in the fall sitting. I say this to anybody in the cornrnunity. and I say th:is to t.he Member for Burin ...

Plac E!nl: i.a We st, although he does not seem to be very interested now, that if at any time, whether it be groups, individuals, concerned parents, tht:~ childr 'en Lhe1n sE ·lves . the adoptees, they want ~ to conl t! and sit down with officials of the Department, myself, or the Directo1 n oF Chi1d WelFare, WE• ar'E' No . 53 R31

accessi bl e at all times. The info rma ti on will be pub lici zed, now that this Bill is passe d, th at fur the r l egis la tion will be ongoing; all peo ple will be notifie d in wri ti ng th at they, at any ti me , can com e and si t down. Of co urse the Legislat ive Revi ew Com mittee is certa inly a proces s whi ch they ca n go through and deb ate any conc ern s the y hav e. In the mean time , bef ore it com es to th at proc ess , w e wil l do that . In conclusion, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to pass along my thanks to the Review Committee and all the people concerned with getting this passed U1rough the House of Assembly. Because it is not something that is important to the Minister of Social Services or the Department as much as it is important to the people, the children and the adoptive parents, who were quite concerned about what. was going to happen in this present Bill. Now that the information has gone out out to the Communities, and has passed through the House of Assembly, I would like to express my thanks to all the people .

I am proud to be able to pass this along to the Department and to see that we have, oncC:' again, gon<::~ through the democratic system and have been very co- -operative, on both sides of the House. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I moue second reading . On rnotton, a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Adoption Of Children Act, 1972," read a second U .rrtE!, ordered referred to a Comrni ttee of the Whole House, on tomorrow . Mr . Baker : Order 2 . On motion, that the House itself into a Committee Whole to consider a Bill, To Amend The Mineral Act, L3 2 June 12, 1990 resolve of thE! 11

An Act 1976 11 • Vol XLI (Bill No . 7), M1~. Speak E!r left th E! Chair. Committee of the Whole MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Bi11 No. 7 . The han. the Minister of Min es and Energy. Dr ·-··-··-·-G. .i_q_bq _ _r_l .. ?_: Thank you. Mr. Chairman . I arn pleas<::'d to spE!ak to this Bill in Cornrni.LtE!E! stage. We haVE! aJ.ready gone past second reading. At this t.irne, I have a coupJ.e of amendments I IAJould like to add to the Bill. There are copies available t.u~rich can bE· distributed if desired.

I would likE ! to rnou e C:in arnc ~ndrn :::!nt to Clau SE! 2, pagE ! 6, by repl aci.ng that with a nt?.W Claus e 2, whi ch I arn -distributing, and I would like to add another clau se irnrnediatE!1y following Clau se 14, whi ch would be Clause 14 .1 . An Han . Member : arnE!ndrnE!nts? What . is it, t.1.uo Dr. Gibb ons: There ar e l::l.uo amend ments. The re i.s an amend mE: nt to Claus e 2, which will be replaced by the one circulat ed, and there will be an am end men t after Clause 14 - we a re a dding ano ther am endmen t. The expl ana to ry note wil l b e o n the distrib uted cop y.

My ho n. cr it ic for Mines ha s a copy he wa s giv en yeste rda y and is fa mil iar wit h it. In general, I would like to ta1k about these two amendments . The first one would provide that a holder of a l.icence, permit, leaSE! or agreement respe cting minera1 s obtain ed other than under The No . 1)3 IB2

Mineral Act, that is under any other statute. 111ay apply during the cur1nency of it for a li.cence, mining lease, or demise of surface rights under Thr:' Mine1nal Act, 1976, to extract minerals in, on or under the land covered by the original licence, permit, lease or agreement respecting minerals. That applies t:o the amendment to ClauSE! 2.

The second part of the amendment, Clause 14-. 1, would provide that a hoJ.der of a J.icence, permit, lease or agreement respecting minerals obtained other than under The Mineral Act has no right to compensation where he or she obtains a new licence, permit, mining lease or demise of sulnface rights under The Mineral Act. This is where previous rights are now being continued by renewal under The Mineral Act rather than under the previous Act. Secondly. where the Government of the Province fails to renew the licence or the permit under the other Act so that no compensation could be claimed.

We are just Jetting the li.cences and leases die as they expire under the o1.d legisJ.ation, and renewing these leases and licences. etc.. unde1n the new Mineral Act, which is the Act of genera1 application. The requirement for these amendments came up afterwards, when it was shown to us that there were a coup1.e of things IAJe couJ.d no-t. do there without going through the staking process. I wi.J.l leavE• it at that, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: for ME!nihek. The han. the Member Mr. A. Snow : Thank you, Cha·irman.

I would first of thank the hon. the Minister Mr. all of L33 June 12, 1990 Vol XLI Mines and f.ne1ngy for allotAJing me t h e t i rn e t o 1 o o k a t l: h E~ am e n d rn e n t he gave me yesterday.

This Act, it . is my undE:~rstand'ing, and maybe the Minister could elaborate! a lit U.e mo r'e. but this particular amendment t.o this clause, he suggested one of the things in it is l:hat there :is no compensation for anybody who is presently operating a claim. and when it falls under this nE!IAJ Act the Government is not liable or the State is not liable for any compensation to the holder of the lease they are now operating under.

Of course, in my particuJ.ar District, the D'.istrict of Menihl;!k, we have two mines operati.ng there, two mines that operatE! and produce about three-quarters of the mineral wealth of this Province, about $750 million corrring out of westE!rn Labrador. We arE! SE!e·oi.ng a change in this Act which could impact those particular operating mines. They are presently operating undE·r ·-now l:.his is rny understanding, and maybe the Minister can elaborate, again a bit more - in the case of Iron Ore Company of Canada, rhe Labrado1n Mining and f.xplor-at'i.on Act and, in the case of Wabush Mines, under thE!

NALCO/Jave1:in Act. When thE! leases they are presently ope1nating under expire. thE!SE' Acts and these lE:'i'ISes lAJould cLi .lc' a natura1 death and roll over and be controlled under The Minerals Act. Can he explain l:o 111e hOIAJ i::tny revenue that could be collected under the LMand E Act, or not collected under LM and FAct, o1n any revenues collected or not collected under the NALCO/Javelin Act, how this Act could affect that particular taxing authority, if you will? Because this does have a tremendous impact, a No. 1)3 1n1

tremendous economic impact on western Labrador residents, because local taxing authorities are pre-empted from taxing the mining properties per se by The NALCO/Javelin Act and The Labrador Mining and Exploration Act.

Generally speaking, I am in favour of this type of amendment if this does i(ldeed permit a local taxing authority. such as a municipality or such as a school tax authority, to tax a mining operator to a greater degree, if you will, because this allows people operating or working in the mining industry in the particular area a greater benefit to be derived to those re sidents and those people living in the area . Those who are closest to the resource, if you will, will be able to derive a greater benefit.

Because what is presently happening is that most of the revenues which are accruing to this Province in tax benefits are being removed from Western Labrador and shipped of f to St. John 1 s, and then we are seeing the politicians here in St. John 1 s making ras h decisions and removing benefits to the residents of Western Labrador. And this is fundamentally unfair.

I tAJould tholnoughly ag1nee uli th this type of increased taxes in the sense that i.f the people who arE:' closest to the resource and wo1nking in the 1nesource can see a greater benefit accruing to them, such as a local revenue being · generated more \:o the local town councils and to a local school tax authority. So I would like for the Minister to qualify that. My understanding is that both these mining ope1nating under as they expire fall undr:!r this properties are several leases and they would then new Minerals Act. L3'~ June 12, 1990 Vol XU Of course. what we are seeing is that they may expire.

I believe - he can give me the dates. but my understanding is that it could be probably over as long a period as eight or n;i.ne or ten years - the exploration I am talking about. Would the fact that a lease may not expire on the property preclude these local taxing authori ties from getting any local revenues from these mining companies operating in Western Labrador? If the Minister could answer those fel..u questi.ons I have ·as ked,. I would greatly appreciatE· it and so would the people of Western Labrador and other residents in this Province. Mr, Chairman: ThE:' hon . th~;:~ Minister of Mines and Energy. Dr.

Gibbons: Mr. Chairman, taxes of general applicQltion in the mining industry afe collected under The Mining And Mineral Rights Ta x Act from the com pan ie s which oj:)erate the iron ore minE!S. and that will continue to be the case. I would like to s t.ate that this is no t a taxation meas urE' we are talking about here. this is a minerals and manag e~ent th ing, primarily . There may be some effect on, I guess. the exac-t proportions of tax collected under The Mining And Minerals Rights Tax Act:.

The other clause the Member is really talk ing abou t is the one in The Labrador and Mjning Exploration Act, which no w puts a 40 per cen t limit on the amount of revenu e that can be given to a municipali ty from the mining operation. If .a lease is now renewed under The Mineral Ac t, that 40 per c ent limi ta l"io n do es not apply to anything relati ve to the lease that is under The Mineral Act, but it would continu e No. 1)3 IB'~

~ - to apply to any of Lhe leases that are still in place under The LM and E Act. As he said, these leases expire over a time: the first one expires this summer for the Labrador mining property. others later than that, but all of the operating leases at roc. as I understand it, expirE! by the summer of 1992. So. over the next ttJ.JO years, all these leases wouJ.d now be renewed under The Mineral Act. and that l\.0 per cent factor would not apply in terms of the proportion that could be given to the Budget. That is my understanding of it.

The present clause, the l\.0 per cent clause, is in The LM and E Act, but there is nothing at all in The Miner•al Act that limits or even talks about municipal taxation. But there is that clause under the LM and E Act. So over a two year period aJ.l the leases wo-uld be renewed under The ~ Mineral Act - it is a two year period. All the present operating leases are going to expire by 1992, the first one starting in 1990 . As long as a lease does continue under l:he LM and E Act, that clause would apply for municipalities and school taxes, or any local taxation, as I understand it.

I . think that answers the question . Mr. Chair·man: for Menihek . The han. the Member Mr. A. Snow : I am answer·ed the qur::'stion . thoroughly confused. not sul~E· HE! has he TTIE! Dr. Gibbons: It is easy enough . Mr. A. Snow: It probably is easy -e;··n·a·u·g··j:;-· ·:···-····--··"iJ-u t it i S a V E! loy complicated matter and it. is one of a J.ot oF concer·n to the us June 12, 1990 Vol XU residents of Western Labrador. You talked about the l\.0 P"-~r cent.

What The LM and E Act and The NALCO/Javelin Act do is protect the rninj ng company floorn payinq taxes on their mining property, even if they were included :in a municipal boundary. Now a municipal boundary could be expanded under those Acts. but they would limit the amount of revenues they would have to pay in taxes to 4-0 per CE!nt of al1 the 1nevenue collected from all othe1o sourcE!S. tJ.Jhi1e the m:i .ning property itself is probably four to Five times the value, in real estate property va1ue system, possi .bly four to five times the va1ue of the other property the municipality has within ils boundaries now.

So we are - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. A . SnotJJ: Pardon? An Han. Member: Is iL thE! same under (inaudiETr:'!) Act? Mr. A. Snow: No. These cornpardos are protected under the NALCO/JAVE LIN Ac t and the LM and E Act. Now what happens is that this so- ca11ed 1 protection 1 is ou L the tJJi ndow. lha t 1 s 1ny understanding. I was hoping tht:• Minister could confirm that, and that indeed now, under this new Act, when the leases expire and they die thEdr natur·a1 death, the new leases wou1d come under rhe Minerals Act.

Thus, a municipa1ity could expand th(dr boundaries and the rn:i lYing company. the operator of those particular mines in Western Labrador, would not be precluded or I:i1ni l:ed to LhE! 40 per cent c1ause that is presently in th!:"' LM and E Act and the NALCO/Jave1in Act . That is what is of direct conCE!r'n t:o thE• residents of Labrador· and. I am No. 1)3 ID 1)

sure, a d irect concern, also, of the mining ope ra tors there. because it may indeed haue an impa ct upon thei r operating expenses if, indeed, there is some new form of ta xat ion. Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. Dr . Gibbons: The Member is correct, Mr . Chairman, that uhder The LM and E Act the 40 per cent limitation does apply, bu t under the new Act, und er the Min eral Act, the 40 per cent limitation is no t present . It is not pr esen t, so as the leases are ren ew ed under The Mi ne ral Act, that 40 pe r cent is not the re . An Hon. Member : (Inaudible). Dr .

Gibbons: That's not there. it's gone . It is not present in fhe Mim~ral Act, but. i.t. is there in The L.M and E Act . So it IAJi11 take -two years for all the leases which are presently operating to be renewed under The Mineral Act, the first one starting this summer . Mr. Chairman : The hon. thr:' M~'rnber fot~ ME!nihek . Mr . A. Snow: Yes, and thank you again, Mr . Chairman.

The lea ses whe n they exp ire would fall under this new Minerals Act, but if, indeed, the boundary were expande d to include the minihg properties and they were able to ta x the m and part oF - it is going to be two year s before all these leases expire, so nothing could be done for a minimum of two years? Dr . Gibbons : It cou1d be done on a lease that expires now . Mr. A. Snow : OnJ.y on the lease that expires now? L36 June 12, 1990 Vol XLI Dr. Gibbons: If the ex -pirr;!d I that could rnean of U1e atnea. lease is a port ion Mr. A.

Snow: And this wouJ.d also include, not just th<::~ rnining property the operators are actually rnining, but the rnining property the plants and buildtngs are sitting upon, I would assume? This does not just include the actual ground, th e mine~al, thi s would include the actual property wher e a plant, a structure, a bu il ding, a warehous e, a (inaudible) , o~ a garage , th at type of struc ture could be ta xed . An Han. Member: A paint shop . Mr. A.

Snow : And the carpenter shop, the han. the Member For Burin - Placen tia West I believe it is. who is qui ·te familiar wit h our J.ocal paint shop and carpenter shop at the Iron Ore Company of Canada Carol Project . ~r- .. '--·-- ·-··-··j:_b. __ ~_:tr._r.r.].?._IJ . : T h e h o n . t h e Minister of Mines and Energy. Dr . Gibbons : YE! S, Mt·' . Chai1nn1an, when a leaSl "! is issued unc!E•r T"he Mineral Act, it is ThE• M:inE•!Aa] Act. that applies and, therefotne, l:h<':l protection that was formerly afforded by Th<':l LM and E Act would no J.onger apply.

The protection that was afforded by l:he LM and E Act For the old lease would no 1onger apply to anyl:hing on l:hal:. lease area under the new Act . Mr . Chairman : for Menihek ThE! hon. th(! M e11 tbe1 ~ Mr. A. Snow : I IAias as k_i ng specifically about the buildings which are situated on the property . Are these buildings situated on thE• propelnty that we are talking about: to l~~ase cw i.s the lease mereJ.y the ground that No. 1)3 R36

is bej_ng minE•d, the rrli.nE!ral that is being mined? What I am attempting to do is clarify for the people of West ern Labrador exactly what could be in clud ed, if indeed they did increase the size of their boundaries, that they would be able to get a revenue on the property that is situated on a leased piece of ground, if you want to call it that, that mineral. What they would lAJant: to tax is not so much the mineral that is in the ground but the build:ings that a1"e the1"e upon the property. ~____llEeake_r.: The han . Minister of Mines and Energy. the Dr. Gibbons: Mr.

Chairman, as I u·i·Hfe-rs .. tai;i-Cj ___ it that WOUld be the case. If the bounda1"ies lJJerr:~ expanded for the municipality and the Labrador Mining and Explor·ation Act no longer applies because the lease is now under the Mineral Act, then everything is included, including the property you are talking about. That is as I see it. Mr. Simms: You cannot give us assurances, only as you understand it? Mr . Chairman: rhe han. the Member for· Humber ··-··valley . Mr. Woodford: Mr.

Chairman, then T····-··;;··u·p-p-o-se ·····-·:ct lAJ o u 1 d be 1 o g i c a 1 to assume that the companies would be ta~able under the Municipalities Act the same as anybody else? · Dr. G1.bbons: Yes . Mr. Woodford: So that would be c:··c;·-;; ·-e-re-C.i"·-··--u-~~---·· ·-to t h e rn i n i mum s a n d rnaximums on pei"Ct:~ntages and up to a maximum off in the Municipalities Act? L37 JUI1E'J 12, 1990 Uol XLI Dr. Gibbons: Yes . M1". Simms: Could the Minister stand and say, yes, reported in Hansard? so it would be Mr. Chairman: The han. thE! Minister of Mines and Energy . Dr.

Gibbons: Yes, that ts rny understanding because the protection afForded notAl under the Lab1"acior Mining and Exploration Act would no longer apply, and then thr:' Municipalit.i .r::•s Act: cornE!S in. A Bill, "An Act Mineral Act, 19'76." To Amend The (Bill No. '7) Motion, that the Corr1111ittee I"E•port having passed the Bill with amendments, carried. Mr. Chairman: The hon . tl-w President of freasury Board. Mr. Baker : cj1·a-rr: iTi·a-ri-~--- --··"- Thank you, Mr. I lAIOncler if, by leaVE:' of LhE! H o u s e , we c o u 1 d p r o c e e d lAJi l h L h E!

Committee sta~~es of Bil ls No. 'l'/ and S2, the t:.wo Bills tha t. IAJe did second reading for earl ier toda y? Mr. Chairman: Does the Cornrn .iLL:ee have leave of the Hou se? Mr. Simms : Mr. Chairrnan, tJJe qaVE! l··E; ·iiv··e-- -·-E";·a ·rl t e 1" to p 1" o c e e d o n t ha t . Mr. BakE!r: ThE:! Cornrn:it:.LE•e ~;t .. <;lqr:~ of" Bill 47, Mr . Chairman. A B:i11, ''An Co rnrni. s s ion e 1" s (BillNo. 4'7). Act lo Amend lhe For 0 a l: h s Act .. 11 Motion, that the CornrrriL .te~~ 1~eport : having passed l:.he B:il1 lArit.hout amendments, carried. No . S 3 R 3 '/

Mr. Baker: B·.ill No. 52. Mr. Chairman: The han. the bpposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Mr. Chairman, I believe this legislation, of course, is a piece of legislation that has been sought for by a lot of people in the Province, particularly those who had adoptive parents, and there has been a lot of interest in it. I understand, in the Department of Social Services there are a number of · people who have requests on hold. And I think there is a genuine desire on the par ·l: of all Members of the House to proceed with this kind of legislation.

In fact, I believe our party in the last election, had committed to bringing in legislation similar to this anyway, so we have no problem with the Government doing it. I think my friend from Burin Placentia West did express his concerns with respect to the Bill during second reading debate, but I believe he had his concerns addressed, at least I understand he had his concerns addressed.

And, of course, from everybody else , i think, on this side the re is a considerable amount of support for the legislation because we intended ourselves to bring it in and we had indicated publicly during the election campaign, in fact, we wanted to move on this type of legislation. An Han. Member: (Inaudible) . Mr. Simms: Yes. So, I am just having a few IAJot~ds on the Bill in Committee because I am wondering does the Minister have an amendment. That. is the only reason I am prolonging debate, other than l:o say that.

I support . the:~ "legislation as IAJeLl. · So the U8 June 12, 1990 Vol XU only reason I am prolonging debate is we are waiting for the Minister to come back to see if he has anything PlSE! to say to it 01~ did h~~ have an amendmE!Ill: to move 01~ was there anything to come. I will leave the door open . Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Minister for Social Services . Mr. Efford: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry but I was detained . I t~.Jas inside on the phonE! and I d"id not realize that this was coming up.

The amendment we agreed to; the Member for Burin - Placentia West, the Member for Humber East and myself, agreed to make some changes in

section 22. Instead of the Minister 'may' authorize the release of information, the Minister 'shal1'. Mr. Chail~man, I IJ..Jou1d 1i .ke to rnovo the amendment that IJJe change Lhe word from may to shall. An Han. Member: ( InaudiblE•) . M1~. Effot"d : page 8. In 22

section 2 on An Han. Member: (Inaudib1<:'). Mr. Efford: Clause 2, sorry. Clause 2 on page 8. I Mr. Chairman: Shal] C1c.~usc carry? Cai'Tied. The amendment to c1ause 2? Carried. am 1 The han. Leader. the Oppos:i t:i.on HOUSE:' Mr. ask Simms : I would a question. I No. r..i3 just 1ib:! aiTI t:ry:i.ng t.o to IB8

recollect -- now maybe thE~ clE~rks al:. the table can help me - thE~re tAJas sornc:' pt~ovision in the parliamentary procedure rules somewhere that the person introducing the Bill should not move the amc:~ndmE~nt. And generally speaking the House Leader used to always to that. Is that accurate? I am trying to recollect now to tell you the truth. Mr. Chairman: The hon. the President of Treasury Board . Mr. Baker: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is exactly right. And as soon as the Member rose I remembered the same point. TherE~ is a provision that it has to be done by sornc:'body else and agrc:~ed to by the House. So I move that

section 2 which pet~tains to ClausE~ 22 of the Bi11 sub

section 2, on disclosure, r·ead the Minister 'shall' authorize rather than the Minister 'rnay' authot~iZE:', so the may be change~d to shall. I so moue, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: The · hon. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Mr. Chairman, I have no problem with thE~ amendment or anything, if ·thE'I~e is a technical reason for· it then WE~ better· correct it because one day somebody might carne back and say it is not proper.

And on reflection we should direct the table, and we should direct Hansard to move or accurately reflect that thE:' arnl':~ndment:s on the last Bi11, the Mim!ral Act that. was moved by the Minister of Mines and Energy, was actua1ly technically out of order. II: should have been rnoved by the Government House Leader. So, we should just agree to make sure L39 June 12, 1990 Vol XLI that Hansard l~eflects that properly, so that the1~e ts no problem with that. That is a simple way o-f doing i. t' just by agreement and saying i·l: now is it? That is the only reason I raised it, Ml". Chainnan. ClausE! 2 is carried.

C1ause 2 is amended. On motion, 2 ' amendment, carriL::>d. Clause through Clause lAJ'i th 4 Motion, that the Contrnitter:O! having passed the Bi1l amendment, carried . rE•pOI"t lAd_ th Mr. Baker: Motion 1, Bill 28. Mr. Chainnan: The hon. thE! MernbE!I " for Grand Falls. Mr. Simms: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Government House Leader while I am on rny feet, Or·cler 26, Bill No . 4-3, that tAlE' had thought might be ready, ancl I understand it has been dra-fted, but it has not yet been print ed, not up From the printers ye t, is that it? An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Simms _: Pardon? .B.!l .....

J:i.9..D ___ ~ ... _.f:1_t?: __ !!!.Q_~ .. t.: : I t_ i s n o t: u p f r o rn the printers yet. Mr . Simms : Do es the Ministe r have a repor t on what the status is ? Does he hope to get it up before the ne xt fift ee n minut es, fo r example? Could somebody check t_.ui ·th the Prin ti ng Services people to SE'e IAJhat stagE! it ts at? Because I tJ