British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, March 14, 2002 (37th Parliament, 3rd Session) (H0314pm-07) (H0314pm 07)

H0314pm-07

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

3rd Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Thursday, March 14, 2002 Afternoon Sitting Volume 4, Number 7 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 3RD SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries.................................................................................... ..............................Hon.

John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon.

Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon.

Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon.

Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management.................................................................................... ..................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon. Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk................................................................................................ ............................................ Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. Internet: www.legis.gov.bc.ca/hansard

Party Standings: Liberal 76; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 1. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind L) .................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) ..........................................

West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (L).........................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L).......................................................................

Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon. Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................

Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon. Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ......................................................

Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon.

John (L) ................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon. Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)...........................................................................

Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Thursday, March 14, 2002 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members....................................................................................................... ............................................... 1947 Introduction and First Reading of Bills ........................................................................................ ......................................... 1947 Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2002 (Bill 11) Hon. G.

Plant Statements (Standing Order 25B) ................................................................................................ ........................................... 1947 Mary Manning Centre S. Orr U.N. convention on the rights of the child V. Anderson International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination I. Chong Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 1948 Sodexho J. MacPhail Hon. C. Hansen J. Kwan Labour Code changes J. Bray Hon. G.

Bruce Cost of referendum on treaty negotiations J. Nuraney Hon. G. Plant Income assistance appeals process H. Long Hon. M. Coell Government support for small business K. Krueger Hon. G. Collins Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 1951 Estimates: Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services (continued) J. Kwan Hon. G.

Abbott Introductions by Members....................................................................................................... ............................................... 1956 Hon. K. Whittred Hon. G.

Abbott Royal Assent to Bills .......................................................................................................... ...................................................... 1974 Supply Act, 2001-2002 (Supplementary) (Bill 12) Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 1975 Estimates: Ministry of Energy and Mines Hon. R. Neufeld J. MacPhail B. Penner D. Jarvis

1947 THURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 The House met at 2:03 p.m. Introductions by Members D. MacKay: From the beautiful Bulkley Valley– Stikine part of the province, I am pleased to introduce two guests today. I should start with a little bit of a

preamble. If anybody was here in 1997, they might know my next guest. He spent a couple of weeks on a bed outside on the lawn in April and May of 1997, dealing with a health dispute. That person was His W o r s h i p P a u l J e a n f r o m B u r n s L a k e . H e ' s u p i n t h e gallery today. Also upstairs with him is my constituency assistant, Patty Peterson, from Smithers, who's on a much- deserved holiday. I'd like the House to make them both welcome. Hon. G.

Hogg: I'd like to introduce a graduate of Earl Marriott Secondary School, a citizen of Surrey– White Rock and a journalism student at Kwantlen Col- lege, who is now doing a practicum with Esquimalt News. She assures me that members of the media are to be fully trusted and can be told almost and virtually anything. She assured me of that this morning. An Hon. Member: They teach them that. Hon. G. Hogg: They teach them that at school, do they? Would you please welcome Shelley Tomlinson. [1405] S. Orr: I'd like to introduce two people today from the glorious flower city of Victoria.

I'd like to intro- duce two very special people: Mr. Fred Ford, who is the executive director of the Child Abuse Prevention and Counselling Society of Greater Victoria, and Mr. Bob Willihnganz, who is the chair of the board of that society. Would the House please make them wel- come. J. Bray: I was very pleased, walking into the cham- ber today, to see two guests joining us in the members' gallery. First, there's a young man who's moved back to British Columbia to pursue his career, Jeff Bishop, and also joining us is a very enthusiastic constituent of mine, Mr. Robin Adair.

I ask the House to please make them welcome. Hon. K. Falcon: In the gallery today I'm very pleased to welcome some grade 11 students from Southridge Senior Secondary School. There are two grade 11 classes with us here today, representing 41 students, along with four of their teachers: Trevor Julian, James Knihniski, Anami Naths and Dawn Haider. I would ask the House to please make them welcome today. Introduction and First Reading of Bills MISCELLANEOUS STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 Hon. G.

Plant presented a message from Her Hon- our the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Miscella- neous Statutes Amendment Act, 2002. Hon. G. Plant: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. G. Plant: I am pleased to introduce Bill 11, the Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2002. More good news from the government of British Columbia. This bill amends a number of statutes.

They are: the Access to Education Act, the Assessment Act, the Fam- ily Relations Act, the Health Authorities Act, the Indus- try Training and Apprenticeship Act, the Municipali- ties Enabling and Validating Act (No. 3), the Protected Areas of British Columbia Act, the Public Service Act, the Strata Property Act, the Taxation (Rural Area) Act and the Vancouver Charter. I will elaborate on the na- ture of these amendments during the second reading of this bill. Mr. Speaker, I move that the bill be placed on or- ders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 11 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) MARY MANNING CENTRE S. Orr: I rise today to tell you about a very, very special organization in this region. I can honestly say I wish that this organization did not have to exist. It is called the Mary Manning Centre of the Child Abuse Prevention and Counselling Society of Greater Victoria. This organization was established in 1982. Because of the terrible things that some children in our society are subjected to, the Mary Manning Centre exists, and for that I am very grateful.

This organization is a non-profit society that pro- vides counselling services to victims of child physical and sexual abuse and their families. Every year this centre sees approximately 250 children and their fami- lies. They come from referrals from the police, social workers, school counsellors, doctors and teachers. This is the only non-profit organization of its kind in the south Island, and they are recognized as experts in this very difficult field of work. Many of the children, or clients, that the Mary Man- ning Centre sees are first abused between the ages of six

1948 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 and 12. About 18 percent were abused by someone they knew; 35 percent are males, and 65 percent are females. [1410] This is the toughest kind of work, and the 11 highly trained counsellors regularly have a waiting list of ap- proximately 65 to 85 children and youth. Sometimes they have to wait three to six months before they re- ceive any help. I wish with all my heart that innocent children did- n't have to be hurt, and I know that everyone in this chamber feels the same.

I am only glad that we have an organization like the Mary Manning Centre and their dedicated workers helping these innocent children put their lives back together. For that, I thank them. U.N. CONVENTION ON THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILD V. Anderson: Children have a priority. As Canadi- ans, we have an ethic that gives children a priority in care and concern. We are not alone in this principle. The national governments of the world, through the United Nations, likewise have confirmed that children have a priority.

In 1943 they established the children's emergency fund which we know as UNICEF, a focus of the annual Halloween boxes of our children. In 1989 they passed the UN convention on the rights of the child, of which Canada is a signatory nation. Yet many of us, perhaps, have never read this convention, which contains some 45 articles to affirm our responsibility to our children. Thus, today you have on your desks a copy of the convention of the United Nations.

Let me summarize just some of the important parts of this convention, as we would stand up for our chil- dren and their rights and their opportunity for the full- ness of life.

Some of the rights listed here are the right to a name and nationality; the right to affection, love and understanding and to material security; the right to adequate nutrition, housing and medical services; the right to special care if disabled, be it physically, mentally or socially; the right to be among the first to receive protection and relief in all circumstances; the right to be protected against all forms of neglect, cru- elty and exploitation; the right to full opportunity for play and recreation and equal opportunity in all of life's activities; the right to develop one's full potential in conditions of freedom and dignity.

Hon. Speaker, I pray that we will read this and act upon these recommendations. Thank you. INTERNATIONAL DAY FOR THE ELIMINATION OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION I. Chong: Next Thursday, on March 21, many peo- ple will be observing the International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. On that day in 1960 police opened fire and killed 69 people at a peace- ful demonstration in Sharpeville, South Africa, against the apartheid pass laws. Since 1966, March 21 has been recognized by the United Nations as the International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.

It is a day to celebrate the many steps the world has taken to free itself from racial hatred but also a day to reflect on the challenges that remain and to renew our commit- ment to overcoming them. Canada was one of the first countries to support the U N d e c l a r a t i o n . I n 1 9 8 9 t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C a n a d i a n Heritage launched its annual March 21 campaign. This campaign was initiated in response to the need to heighten awareness of the harmful effects of racism. For more than ten years, the March 21 campaign has mobilized youth across Canada to rise up and take a stand against racism.

Through their participation in the campaign, Canadian youth have spoken loudly and eloquently: there is no place for racism in their lives. Since 1994, including this year, the province of Brit- ish Columbia has proclaimed March 21 as the day for the elimination of racism. This year the provincial gov- ernment is partnering in community activities with Abbotsford, Campbell River, Prince George, Cranbrook and the lower mainland. In my own riding of Oak Bay– Gordon Head, I have been privileged to work with many young people who speak out against racism.

I have seen them acknowledge this initiative with pas- sion, demonstrating a clear commitment to fostering respect, equality and diversity. They have the energy, commitment and creativity to advance the struggle against racism. They are the voice of the present and the future. We look forward to them to transcend the boundaries of race, ethnicity and religion, and to em- brace diversity. [1415] Even in this year's Commonwealth Day message provided by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, there was mention of a theme — celebrating diversity — that I believe touches on this very issue. Next week is spring break week.

As we return to our constituencies, I trust that all members will take time on March 21 to observe this important day. Mr. Speaker: This concludes members' statements. Oral Questions SODEXHO J. MacPhail: Yesterday British Columbians got a chance to see the kind of shoddy, shady operators this government is letting into the health care privatization business. Despite an abysmal record of delivering health services, Sodexho, an international conglomer- ate, is now on the public payroll for the northern health authority, giving the government privatization advice.

The Minister of Health Services has now had some time to look into Sodexho. Can he tell British Columbi- ans how much money the government is spending on getting advice from this company? Can the minister tell us if they checked the references of this company be- fore putting them on the payroll? Hon. C. Hansen: I'll take it on notice.

THURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1949 J. MacPhail: The minister has had the information about Sodexho for over a week. Let me provide the minister with some information about Sodexho. Sodexho is not only famous for a shoddy and dan- gerous approach to patient care. Sodexho also holds contracts worth millions to provide school lunches. A recent Chicago Tribune investigative report found that school children were getting violently ill from food served to them by Sodexho subcontractors. Last year a worker lost part of a thumb in a Sodexho cafeteria, which found its way into a student's lunch.

Again to the minister: will the minister step in and cancel the contract of Sodexho that's being held — spending money — in the northern health authority right now? Hon. C. Hansen: We have given latitude to the health authorities to seek the advice they feel they need in terms of how to redesign the health care system so it actually starts meeting the needs of patients, for a change, in British Columbia. We have given them that latitude. I am aware, as I said yesterday, that the northern health authority has given a consulting contract to So- dexho.

It's my understanding that there is no contract to provide any kind of direct services. It is simply a consulting contract. J. Kwan: Maybe the minister is so hesitant to get rid of Sodexho because he likes the business model it pro- motes. If you want to prohibit workers from improving their working conditions and participating in the deliv- ery of care, then Sodexho is the company for you. They are promoting this kind of model with a manual, which they have provided to their managers, with advice on how to keep workers under their thumb. [Laughter.] Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please, hon. members.

Order, please. The member for Vancouver– Mount Pleasant has the floor. J. Kwan: Mr. Speaker, it's not a laughing matter. When you find a body

part in a child's sandwich, in a child's lunch, it's not a laughing matter. British Colum- bians don't want to have anything to do with this kind of company. Again to the minister: why are patient dollars being funnelled to a company whose business model is a boon for the shareholders but a disaster for the pa- tients? Hon. C. Hansen: It's certainly a repetition in ques- tions from yesterday to today, and there's a repetition in answers. We have given authority to the health au- thorities in the province to actually seek out the most cost-effective way of delivering support services in our health care system.

We want to make sure we get qual- ity service — and improved quality service, if possible. We also want to make sure we do it in the most cost- effective way. That's the challenge we've given to the health authority, and that's what we expect them to deliver on. Mr. Speaker: The member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a supplementary question. [1420] J. Kwan: Mr. Speaker, what we know about So- dexho should make even right-wing governments like this one cringe.

They make millions in profits by put- ting cut-rate services to patients, and they seem to be- lieve, as the member for Kamloops–North Thompson so eloquently put it a while back, that hospital workers are just a bunch of toilet cleaners that do not deserve decent wages and working conditions. Again to the minister: when will he show some leadership and send these guys packing? Or is it the case that Sodexho is providing just the kind of services he's looking for? Hon. C. Hansen: I am not, as the Minister of Health Services, going to micromanage the delivery of health care around the province.

I am not going to hang over the shoulders of the health authority administrators and tell them how to do their job. The task we have given them is to get the best value for the taxpayers in British Columbia and deliver the best quality of patient care and support service in British Columbia. We have said to them that they should look at options. We have very good workers in the health care system today who are doing excellent work. We also have opportunities to look at other options in terms of how that gets deliv- ered.

Those decisions are going to be left to the capable administrators we have put in place to deliver health services at the local level. LABOUR CODE CHANGES J. Bray: My question will be for the Minister of Skills Development and Labour. Over the last two days my office has received a number of calls from constitu- ents seeking clarification on reports they've heard that government is preparing to introduce changes to B.C.'s Labour Code that will undermine the rights of work- ers. I'm wondering if the Minister of Skills Develop- ment and Labour can tell us whether or not those re- ports are accurate. Hon. G.

Bruce: What the process is, is under a re- view of the labour relations in British Columbia. The issues that are on the website have been submitted by both union and business associations. What we're do- ing is putting that out there so that all can comment on it, be they employees, be they small businesses or be they union members. We're looking for that input to be returned to us so that we can further try to improve labour relations in British Columbia to get the economy turned around in this province.

After ten years of the most disastrous government we've ever seen in British Columbia — in fact, ladies and gentlemen, that we've ever seen in this country of Canada — it's going to take a great deal of time and effort and energy on all of our parts to get British Columbia back to its rightful place: number one in Canada.

1950 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 Mr. Speaker: The member for Victoria–Beacon Hill has a supplementary question. J. Bray: Unlike a couple of members of this House, my community does want to hear these answers. The minister said the government is committed to consult- ing with British Columbians on changes to improve the Labour Code. My constituents want to be actively in- volved in that. I'm wondering if the Minister of Skills Development and Labour can outline for this House how our constituents can take an active participation in that consultation process. Hon. G.

Bruce: It's important to note that we're trying to broaden the ability for people to participate. That's why we're using the electronic age. It's on the website — similarly as we did with the employment standards review. With the employment standards, we had over 300 submissions that were submitted to gov- ernment. I would hope that your constituents and oth- ers — be they employees, small businesses, union members, union associations — would take that advan- tage on the website. I have to thank the member for asking these questions.

I actually thought the opposition would probably jump to their feet and try and represent, once again, the union movement of the province. But the fact of the matter is that we know that after ten years of your rule… Mr. Speaker: Thank you, hon. member. Hon. G. Bruce: …in British Columbia, we probably have fewer union jobs in the province than ever. What we're looking for… Mr. Speaker: Thank you. Hon. G. Bruce: …in the province is to get the econ- omy going with good union jobs… Mr. Speaker: Thank you, hon. member. Hon. G. Bruce: …and highly skilled, well-trained, well-paid people.

COST OF REFERENDUM ON TREATY NEGOTIATIONS J. Nuraney: My question is to the Minister Respon- sible for Treaty Negotiations. There have been concerns expressed in the media about the potential costs associ- ated with the referendum on treaty negotiations. Can the Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations clar- ify what the anticipated cost attached to the referen- dum is? [1425] Hon. G. Plant: I'm pleased to provide the informa- tion the member is seeking. Elections B.C., which is an independent office of the Legislature, will be conduct- ing the actual vote.

They have given us a budget for the mail-in ballot that they say will cover the cost of their part. That's about $9 million. We in government will be sponsoring an independ- ent referendum office to provide the public with in- formation to help them understand the questions. That office has a budget of about $800,000. All in, we're ex- pecting that this exercise will cost less than $10 million. Mr. Speaker: The member for Burnaby-Willingdon with a supplementary question. J. Nuraney: I'm sure everyone in this House would agree that settling aboriginal claims is in the best inter- ests of all British Columbians.

Can the Minister Respon- sible for Treaty Negotiations tell us how the cost of the referendum compares to previous aboriginal treaties? Hon. G. Plant: We know that the cost of the Nisga'a final agreement is close to $500 million and perhaps more. With as many as 60 other possible land claims settlements and treaties being negotiated across the province, we can expect that the final bill for negotiat- ing and settling treaties will be a very, very big bill. We also know that the cost of negotiation is expen- sive. The first nations have loans and contribution funding already in the BCTC process of $230 million.

If you add the federal-provincial contributions, I suspect we've spent half a billion dollars without a single con- cluded treaty to date. In that context, I say that a $10 million investment to protect this hugely important and ultimately very costly process is a very reasonable, modest investment that the taxpayers of British Columbia want us to make on their behalf so that we can make treaty-making work for all British Columbians. INCOME ASSISTANCE APPEALS PROCESS H. Long: T h i s i s t o t h e M i n i s t e r o f H u m a n R e - sources.

A number of my constituents have heard through media reports of the government's plans to make changes to the appeals process for those on in- come assistance. Can the Minister of Human Resources outline those changes and how they will affect those on income assistance? Hon. M. Coell: Presently, the ministry has an ap- peals process that has numerous internal appeals plus a tribunal system and an appeal board. That can be lengthy and cumbersome. What I have done, working through the ministry and with ministry staff, is design an external appeal process that will be one level.

It will have regionally based tribunals throughout the province. It's the hope that this will be a much more effective and streamlined approach and will give decisions that affect the lives of people on income assistance quickly. Mr. Speaker: The member for Powell River– Sunshine Coast has a supplementary question.

THURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1951 H. Long: A number of constituents have also ex- pressed the need to ensure the continued involvement of local communities in the appeals process. Can the Minister of Human Resources tell us how he plans to allow community groups and other individuals to par- ticipate in the appeals process? Hon. M. Coell: I think the ability to have tribunals that are appointed throughout the province on a re- gional basis will allow that to happen.

I think one of the things we want is for people to have reliability in the system and the comfort of knowing that these are fair and accessible tribunals. That will be done in June of this year so people who are on income assistance will have access to those tribunals after that period. GOVERNMENT SUPPORT FOR SMALL BUSINESS K. Krueger: Economic analyses consistently dem- onstrate that small business is the greatest creator of jobs in Canada and in British Columbia. My question is for the Minister of Finance: what is this government doing to encourage small business in British Columbia? [1430] Hon. G.

Collins: This government has in fact done a great deal to encourage small business in the ten m o n t h s o r s o t h a t w e ' v e b e e n h e r e . I n o u r v e r y f i r s t budget we eliminated the PST on production machin- ery and equipment — a $160 million benefit to busi- nesses across British Columbia to reinvest in their businesses and expansions. We're eliminating the corporate capital tax on gen- eral corporations, which many small businesses pay in their triple-net lease.

In this budget, presented a short while ago, we just raised the threshold for the small business income tax from $200,000 to $300,000 to match other jurisdictions in western Canada. The Minister of State for Deregulation is working hard on a plan to reduce the regulatory burden of businesses in British Columbia by one-third in three years. As well, government reduced the income taxes for British Columbians across the board.

We saw our top marginal income tax rate go from the highest in North America to the second-lowest in Canada, which will help the high-tech sector and small businesses grow to become medium and large businesses. [End of question period.] Orders of the Day Hon. G. Collins: In the small House, Committee A, I call Committee of Supply. For the information of members, we'll be beginning with the estimates of the Ministry of Energy and Mines, followed by the esti- mates of the Ministry of Health Services. In this chamber I call Committee of Supply.

For the information of members, we will be debating the esti- mates of the Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services, followed by the Ministry of Agricul- ture, Food and Fisheries. Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; H. Long in the chair. The committee met at 2:34 p.m. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF COMMUNITY, ABORIGINAL AND WOMEN'S SERVICES (continued) On vote 19: ministry operations, $535,278,000 (con- tinued). J.

Kwan: Prior to the lunch break we were talking about compensation and mitigation for community groups that have lost their unit allocation as a result of the cancellation of over a thousand units by this gov- ernment. [1435] I was trying to get a sense from this government in terms of what they have budgeted for this mitigation work. How many societies are in the position of losing money because they have put energy and resources into meeting the conditions of government for these allocations?

The minister was reluctant to provide the number or even the ballpark number for reasons that he articulates to be not wanting to set up expectations. I am, however, still interested in pursuing this line of questioning, because the community groups — and many of them have come to me — have raised their concerns around it. One of the things that I think is important is to send a signal to the community, to say to them that perhaps the government will indeed be fair and that they will work with them to address these concerns, to really stem off litigation. I am concerned about litigation.

Ontario has gone to the path of litigation, and, yes, Ontario had cancelled unit allocations that were under construction, but there were some that weren't either. Irrespective of that, in British Columbia societies have gone through a process. Some of them have in- curred staff costs, and some have incurred other costs — whether it be legal costs, costs related to land, etc. There are a whole host of costs that societies have in- curred. I'm wondering, perhaps, if the minister — if not in this House — can provide the information to me by correspondence, through his staff.

I would welcome that information, just so that when I speak with the community groups, I actually have some sense of an answer for them other than to say: "Hey, don't worry." What they've learned from this government is that when it says, "Don't worry; you're a priority," they see

1952 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 services cut to programs in areas that they fully depend on. It's a far cry to simply say: "Hey, don't worry." I wonder if the minister can give me the assurance in this House today that he could provide me with the targeted budget that the ministry has set aside for this work. How many societies will be impacted? Hon. G. Abbott: We did canvass this particular point at some length this morning. I'll say this one more time, and I'll say it as gently and as dispassion- ately as I can.

First of all, it is the government's intent to deal fairly, reasonably, equitably and appropriately with any housing societies who may have suffered as a con- sequence of the changes which have been made. Again, as I pointed out on numerous occasions ear- lier today and, I think, yesterday as well, the reason why we advised the societies last October about the projects under review was so that they would not go out and make any additional investments that they did not have to make in relation to their projects. I also acknowledged earlier today, Mr.

Chair, that where additional costs were unavoidable, we would also take that into account in any discussion around mitigation which will commence between B.C. Hous- ing and the projects. That's why we made the an- nouncement in October. The societies were advised yesterday of their status — whether their projects were proceeding or not pro- ceeding. Again, we believe that in some cases, projects that were advised they would not be proceeding will, at some point in the months ahead, be proceeding with stronger partnership. Further, I advised the member that a number of the projects — in some cases they're B.C.

Housing projects, and in other cases…. At least in one case, the society in question asked that their alloca- tion be returned. So, clearly, the compensation issue is not one that's going to be universal here. We are entirely confident. This is not something that I dreamed up; these are the best estimates of the professional, knowledgable staff that I have around me. We have provided sufficient funds to ensure that everyone will be treated fairly, equitably and reasona- bly in this process. [1440] I'm going to tell the member this one last time, Mr. Chair. We are not going to be releasing a figure in this House.

We have to balance the opportunity to be fair and equitable with the projects with the legitimate right and concern of the taxpayer that we will act in the best interests of the taxpayer. I've given my commit- ment that we are going to treat the projects and the societies fairly and equitably. We will do that. We've made provision for that. Those discussions have al- ready started. I'll be glad to advise the member as they proceed. I'm entirely confident that there will be a completely satisfactory resolution of this point, but I am not…. The member can get up and ask this question all day long, if she wishes.

I am going to be rather less statesmanlike in my responses from this point on, be- cause I've made the point a number of times now, and it's time to move on. In the interests of the taxpayers of British Columbia, in the interests of the societies in question, we are going to treat them fairly and equita- bly. I am not going to release a precise figure of dollars in this House. J. Kwan: It sounds to me almost as though the min- ister is using a tone of threat in this House, hon. Chair. The line of questioning that I'm asking is important. My office and I have been talking with societies around these issues.

They've been concerned about it since right after the election. They have been phoning my office continuously around this issue. I've been meeting with them continuously around this issue beginning last year, even before the minister made the an- nouncement of freezing the 1,700 units of affordable housing. Then the speculation surfaced after that time, when the expectation was that there'd be about a thou- sand units that would be cancelled. That has now been confirmed, and people are continuously asking these questions in terms of what kind of compensation and so on.

You know, this is supposedly an open and trans- parent government. Supposedly, they have in the line items within their books how much they're allocating for what purpose. The line of questions I'm asking is completely within the authority of the budgets. This is why we're here in this budget estimates process: to find out what items the minister has within his budget and what they are for. I'm asking the question around what has been allocated for the mitigation and compensation component. If the minister is not prepared to give that an- swer…. Obviously, he is not prepared to give that an- swer in this House.

Even though in the New Era docu- ment they claim that they will be open and they claim that they will be transparent, there is zero transparency here. There is zero transparency here, and that is obvi- ous. He wants to get up and use a tone of threat in this House. You know, quite frankly, in my own view it's not appropriate. Let's go through, then, specifically what would be deemed to be items that would fit for compensation.

Let's start with the issue around staff time that has been incurred from the societies who put forward an application under the previous government that has received approval from the previous government and has received allocation. Let's start with the compensa- tion process, then, item by item to determine what would be fair compensation in this scenario. Hon. G. Abbott: There is one thing that is remarka- bly transparent in this House, and that's how thin the research is on the part of this member and her opposi- tion party in preparing for these estimates.

It's remark- able how, after some very patient responses to the question, they want to keep coming back to the point. Again, to make the record clear, B.C. Housing has commenced its discussions with the societies with re- spect to projects that will not be proceeding at this

THURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1953 point in time. We will consider all legitimate costs in those discussions. [1445] J. Kwan: Would staffing costs be considered as a legitimate cost? Hon. G. Abbott: I'm advised that we'll be looking at all legitimate costs on a case-by-case basis. J. Kwan: I'm trying to decipher, for the societies who are going to have to deal with this government on these issues, where they have incurred costs.

Some societies are at the brink of having to make a determi- nation whether to fold their entire project or continue to try and proceed with some hope of making their project realistic by getting funding from the govern- ment and realizing the social housing units for their communities — much-needed units for the communi- ties throughout British Columbia, where we have over 10,000 people on the wait-list waiting for safe, secure and affordable housing. Quite frankly, the minister is not forthcoming with these answers. He says: "What is legitimate, what's f a i r .

" I ' m a s k i n g h i m : w h a t i s d e e m e d t o b e f a i r a n d legitimate? Start with one easy item: staff costs that have been incurred by a society in moving a project forward since the allocation's been made and since the government has announced that the project will not proceed and has cancelled those allocations. Will staff- ing costs be considered a legitimate expenditure that societies will be able to recoup from this government? Hon. G. Abbott: B.C. Housing has commenced those discussions.

We will not know, until all of the issues are reviewed on a case-by-case basis, precisely what the outcome will be. I'm afraid the member is going to have to come to grips with the fact that on May 16, 2001, the government changed in British Co- lumbia. They are no longer the government. They're no longer responsible for negotiating issues such as com- pensation in cases like this.

W h e n w e l o o k b a c k a t t h e m a n y i s s u e s o n w h i c h the former government went to compensation, they didn't get up in this House and say: "Here's exactly what we're going to do for Carrier Lumber," or, "Here's what we're going to do here," or, "Here's what we're going to do there." You don't do that. The member knows that full well. We have started the discussions. We are going to look at legitimate staff costs; we're going to look at le- gitimate third-party costs.

Again, until we get into those discussions more fully and until we know the rationale or the fact basis on which the societies are making their requests, we cannot form judgments. The member knows full well that it is entirely inap- propriate and irresponsible to be attempting to under- mine the position of the taxpayers of British Columbia by attempting to grandstand in this House for people she somehow believes are allies of hers and by pre- tending to be negotiating their position with the gov- ernment. It doesn't happen. J. Kwan: The arrogance of this government and this minister is unbelievable.

He rises up in the House and lectures me, and he often does that with my colleague from Vancouver-Hastings, saying that they have 77 seats in this House and they can do whatever they want. Any question you ask is not legitimate. The amount of arrogance this minister is displaying is abso- lutely stunning. [1450] This member claims he comes from the community, and he deals with them. He's been a municipal council- lor, and so on and so forth, but he fails to understand the anxiety that the community groups are going through.

He fails to understand that a lot of these community groups are small groups with a volunteer board at the table, plowing ahead day in and day out, trying to do what they think is best for the community — in this case, around housing — trying to see afford- able housing units developed in the community to support members of their community. They invest their time and energy. The board members take a personal risk because they have a fidu- ciary responsibility to those societies at the end of the day.

In spite of the election and in spite of the govern- ment freezing the projects, people have gone forward to see what they can do to maintain the possibility of seeing the units develop into housing for the members in their community. Now all of a sudden they find themselves with their projects cancelled and risks they have assumed that they now have to take on. It does, for a small society particularly, come down to dollars and cents; it does. Some may be able to get legal advice; others may not.

All I'm attempting to do, hopefully through this government, is give some assurances to members of the public that they don't need to worry, that in fact gov- ernment will be there for them on the issue around compensation, and "here are some of the things you can look at in terms of what your losses are." I actually don't think the societies will sit there and think of how they can gouge the government, if you will, and cheat them if they weren't legitimate loss costs. I don't think that at all. I don't think the societies are thinking about that.

They're just simply thinking about what is valid, what is not valid and the kind of things that they need to start to prepare when they meet with B.C. Housing and their staff. What is clear from this minister, though, is that he actually doesn't know. Either he doesn't know what the answer is, so he doesn't know what the line budget is in his budget, or if he does know, then he is trying to create a very difficult position for these societies. Either way, I don't think it's acceptable.

This minister likes to claim that he is open and ac- countable in the estimates process, and he knows very well what I'm trying to get at here in terms of helping the societies with some level of assurance in terms of

1954 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 their compensation and mitigation issues. The minister is not even prepared to acknowledge that. I asked a question about staffing costs — would it be legitimate? — and he refuses to answer that ques- tion. Legal costs — would that be legitimate? Mortgage costs that people have to carry because they carried the land — would that be legitimate? I think these are broad questions that societies are looking for.

I'm not advocating for any one society in particular but broadly speaking to let the communities know what it is they can look at and start to prepare for that work. Hon. G. Abbott: I'm going to try one more time here. B.C. Housing has been a solid, dependable, repu- table organization for decades here in British Colum- bia. They deal on a daily basis with some 700 non- profit societies in the province. They deal with them on a daily basis. They deal with them with respect to pro- jects that are there, with ongoing subsidies, with other issues they may frequently have.

The fair treatment of those 700 societies has been, I think, very much the hallmark of B.C. Housing. I have made the commitment, and I know B.C. Housing has made the commitment, to treat all the parties here fairly and equitably. I don't know how many times I have to say that before the member is prepared to accept it. Not only do I find it, in fact, quite appalling that the member would insult me — I'm happy to accept her accusing me of wanting to cheat and gouge people — but I'm astounded that she would suggest, somehow, that our staff would take any kind of approach like that into these kind of discussions.

That is absolutely astounding. I have made a commitment here. We are talking about things. The member asks: "Well, what kind of things?" Land costs, in some cases non-refundable de- posits, might certainly be considered a legitimate issue for a project that wasn't proceeding — and elected, I might add, not to proceed after trying to secure stronger partnering. Architects' fees are another exam- ple. Development consultant fees are another example. Really, legitimate staff costs are, again…. We have to deal with these on a case-by-case basis. We don't negotiate these things in this chamber.

Clearly, the public interest demands that we deal with it responsibly and appropriately, and that's what we're going to do. [1455] I f t h e m e m b e r i s t r y i n g t o p o s e h e r e a s t h e g r e a t defender of the non-profits, every time now I'm going t o h a v e t o r e m i n d t h e m e m b e r a s w e c o n t i n u e a l o n g the present track that the Housing Construction (Eld- erly Citizens) Act, which we talked about last night…. The member frowns, and I don't blame her for frowning. She must be deeply embarrassed, if not ashamed, by her government's record with respect to this.

For years non-profits begged the former govern- ment to repeal that legislation, because what it did was every time a non-profit wanted to change the use of their property — maybe to add a seniors activity cen- tre, remortgage, pave a road or whatever it happened to be — the government…. In 1999 that government made the situation with the Housing Construction (Elderly Citizens) Act even worse, punitively adding an amendment to the act that legally would force the non-profits to pay the Crown — i.e., their government — one-third of the value of the land and the assets on the land — absolutely astounding.

If this member's trying to pose as some great white knight who's trying to ride to the rescue of non-profits in the province, I have to remind her — and I'm going to remind her at every turn here — about the Housing Construction (Elderly Citizens) Act and their pathetic failure to deal with that. As a government, the only thing they could do was make it even worse by adding even more punitive penalties to the non-profits. I'm not going to sit in this chamber and be lectured by that member and her opposition colleague on the issue. Clearly, they've got a big problem here. J.

Kwan: Let's just go through these items. Actually, you know what? The minister just finally came clean on some of the items that societies would be able to claim as fair and legitimate compensation. He actually made a list of some of those items: architectural fees, development cost fees, land-related fees, legitimate staff fees, etc. — costs. That's all I was asking for — a list and simple answers from the minister — and the minister refuses to answer. Hon. G. Abbott: You were actually asking for dol- lar figures? J. Kwan: Yes, I was asking dollar figures. What kind of ballpark are we looking at?

I am interested in knowing whether or not this government has budgeted this item and for how much. The minister claims that the amount would be not as costly as actually building these units. Well, what percentage? It's the public who ought to make the judgment whether or not the gov- ernment acted rightly or wrongly by cancelling these allocations and therefore have the taxpayers incur a cost for compensation and mitigation. That's all I was trying to determine from an open, accountable, new-era government — this Liberal gov- ernment.

How are they budgeting their things, and how are they justifying these kinds of decisions? Also, I was trying to give comfort to the societies who have lost money as a result of the cancellation of over a thousand units, but the minister refuses to answer that question — until just now. You have to keep on pushing and pushing, and t h e n h e g e t s u p a n d m a k e s t h r e a t s , i n m y v i e w . H e answers with a tone of threat in order to give an an- swer.

The minister is laughing because he thinks this is somehow funny. [1500] The other issue around the minister is that he wants to talk about the previous government's record around housing. I'd be delighted to talk about the previous government's record. Let's just review some items.

THURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1955 B.C. Housing, of course, as you know, Mr. Speaker, was initiated by the former government in 1994. It pro- vides for a comprehensive housing program, wholly funded by the provincial government, to provide low- and moderate-income British Columbians with secure, safe and affordable housing. Homes B.C. is delivered by B.C. Housing through community-based, non-profit co-op housing societies. In the first five years of Homes B.C., 4,100 units of new housing were supported.

In June of 1999 the provincial government committed funding for another 2,400 units of housing over the next two years under the Homes B.C. program. An additional 600 units were funded, through the Treas- ury Board process, in the downtown east side and throughout British Columbia. That brought the total number of units completed or under construction since 1999 up to 3,000. Since the inception of Homes B.C. in 1994, the gov- ernment has committed funding for over 7,500 units of affordable housing in British Columbia, with a total capital value of $833 million.

To put the investment in perspective, 7,500 units would have provided enough housing for the entire population of a city the same size as, let's say, Prince Rupert. Hon. Chair, I am proud of this record. I wasn't there for all of that. I'm a strong advocate for housing. Everybody knows that. I've always been and will con- tinue to be a strong advocate for housing. Yes, I am proud of the previous government's record on that. Does that mean to say that there wasn't more to be done? Does that mean to say that there weren't some mistakes made along the way?

Of course the previous government, just like any other government or any individual, made mistakes — no doubt about it. On the seniors question the minister keeps on…. I think it was last summer when that legislation was brought forward. I wasn't in the House. I was away on my honeymoon. I think some members may well re- member that. I think the member for Vancouver- Hastings was in the House and acknowledged that should have been done. She acknowledged that. That's my understanding of it.

If the minister wants to continue to talk about the p r e v i o u s g o v e r n m e n t ' s r e c o r d , w e c a n g o d o w n t h a t track throughout these estimates. If he wants to just be so arrogant as to say that somehow the issues around housing should be minimized, by his tone in this House, then yes, I will rise to the challenge, and we will continue to debate these items. All the minister has to do is get up and answer the question. It's simple. There's no hidden agenda around it. For the minister to imply that somehow it was my suggestion that the society is trying to cheat the gov- ernment….

It is this minister who made that implica- tion. I wanted to rise up and correct the minister on that. If the minister wants to proceed with these esti- mates in a manner that is respectful on both sides of the House, I would urge him to simply rise up and answer the questions that I have posed for the minister. The issue around compensation. I'd like to ask the minister: has the minister, within the ministry, sought legal advice around the issue of mitigation and com- pensation? Hon. G. Abbott: The answer to the latter question is yes. While the member's revisionist history of B.C.

Housing was in some measure interesting, it wasn't entirely accurate. I should remind the member that in fact, B.C. Housing has been in place since 1967. I think the member may have confused it with the Homes B.C. program, which started in 1994. In fact, B.C. Housing has been in place for 35 years — thirty-fifth anniver- sary coming up. It's been around a long time. They are now involved in over 55,000 housing units in the prov- ince. Again, as we talked about last night, I don't believe it's terribly useful or instructive for the taxpayers of British Columbia to get involved in grand credit- grabbing moments.

I won't here. The important thing is t h a t w e h a v e t o r e m e m b e r t h a t w h a t w e h a v e d o n e with B.C. Housing since 1967 has all been funded by taxpayer dollars. What we try to do as a government is ensure that for every dollar we take out of a taxpayer's pocket, we secure the maximum public good for that. That's where that's at. The answer with respect to whether we have se- cured legal advice is yes. [1505] J. Kwan: Yes, I did misspeak myself. It wasn't B.C. Housing I was referring to. It was Homes B.C. since 1994.

It was actually in this period of time when a sig- nificant amount of housing was developed and deliv- ered in British Columbia. Yes, it was the previous gov- ernment who did that, and yes, I am proud of that re- cord. The minister tried to intimate that exposing a num- ber associated with the compensation and mitigation question will somehow create a situation of grand credit-grabbing. I think those were exactly his words. I have faith in the societies out there that are deal- ing and grappling with this tough situation they find themselves in. They had letters they received from B.C.

Housing advising them that their project would pro- ceed and that they had the unit allocation to proceed. Now all of a sudden they find themselves with a can- cellation and incurred costs. I don't actually think there's any society out there that would go and make up costs that weren't legiti- mate. I don't think people would look at it as a grand credit-grabbing scheme, as the minister would like to suggest.

All I want and I think the societies want is to ensure that there is fairness in this process and a better understanding of how to proceed within what would be considered to be legitimate and to go through that accordingly. The minister could be very helpful if he just set aside…. I know he likes to think he's non-partisan in his approach. If he could just put aside his high note of partisanship in this House for one moment, we can get through this estimates process. Last night he was sing- ing so high with his partisanship credentials…. The

1956 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 notes were so high that I was worried the windows were going to shatter in this House. The minister says that they have sought legal ad- vice on this issue. When does the minister expect this work to be completed, in terms of working through the societies on the compensation question? Introductions by Members Hon. K. Whittred: I seek leave to make an introduc- tion. Leave granted. Hon. K. Whittred: In the gallery I see a group that the Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services and myself met with this morning.

They are from an organization called Seniors Housing Informa- tion Program, otherwise known as SHIP. I wish to say that we had a very informative meet- ing. Present in the group are Gordon Gram, president; Rose Bergen, vice-president; Doris Routcliffe, secretary; Tony Hardy, treasurer; and Val MacDonald, who is the executive director of the organization. Will the House join me in making them welcome. Hon. G. Abbott: I 'm v e ry p l e as e d t o jo i n wi t h m y colleague in also welcoming the folks from SHIP. We had a very good meeting this morning, and I'm de- lighted to join in welcoming them to the House.

Debate Continued Hon. G. Abbott: We certainly proceed on this side of the House and at B.C. Housing assuming that every- one has the best of intentions as they proceed. I don't think there's any question about that. The discussions have begun. One can never know what length discussions will take. It will depend on the character and the complexity of the negotiation. That is precisely the same as any other discussion and negotia- tion that goes on. J. Kwan: Will B.C. Housing be bringing lawyers to these discussions, or would it be just on a staff level with legal advice? Hon. G.

Abbott: We will not be involving lawyers in the discussion. It will be staff from B.C. Housing and the societies. We expect the discussions will be amica- ble and fruitful. [1510] J. Kwan: There are no time lines on these discus- s i o n s . T h e r e ' s n o b u d g e t t h a t w e c a n g l e a n f r o m o n these issues. I understand from the minister that dis- cussions have already started on these items and that they will not bring lawyers into the discussion from the ministry. The questions around the discussions with the soci- ety. Take, as an example, where there's a parcel of land.

Let's say that land is involved, and the mortgage costs of the land are going up. The project has been cancelled because the allocation has been cancelled. If the society puts the land on the market and it's not sold, then the land is still there and the society has to hold a mort- gage. The land is not sold. They're trying to mitigate their damage, but they might not be able to do so. In the meantime they're still assuming costs. Would the government undertake to compensate for those ongoing costs?

As long as the society's dem- onstrated that they have attempted to mitigate costs as best they can, then on that basis would the government be compensating the society? Hon. G. Abbott: Again, I'm happy to respond to the question here. I do want to emphasize once again, though, that I think it's only the member opposite who senses that the sky is falling here. That's certainly not the impression we are getting from the non-profit so- cieties around the province. I think the great majority of people want to develop projects that are going to enhance the public good in British Columbia.

I'm sure they want to work very hard strengthening their part- nership so that in fact they will be able to proceed. For those that can't proceed, we have certainly re- solved to treat them fairly and equitably. We can cer- tainly look at land compensation, but I do have to ad- vise the member that in only one case has there been acquisition of land, and in that case it was for $1. Again, I'm not quite sure where she's going with this, but I don't believe the sky is falling around that point. J.

Kwan: I know that the government members and government ministers, every time the opposition rises up and raises an issue that perhaps they don't like or don't agree with, start to intimate that the members in opposition are fearmongering. Lo and behold, with MSP premiums — my colleague from Vancouver- Hastings had projected that MSP premiums would go up. At that time the government members said: "Oh, these guys are just fearmongering." Sure enough, the cost for MSP has actually gone up. I don't know who's really fearmongering.

All I'm trying to do is get a sense of what this gov- ernment would consider and deem to be fair compen- sation and what would not, how that process would unfold, what kind of protection would be afforded to the societies to hopefully move forward. Of course I would love it, and I would be the first to congratulate the government if all those units that have now been cancelled will somehow be brought back to the table and continue to proceed. I would applaud the government if they proceeded with that kind of action.

I am a strong advocate for housing, and I don't care which government does it as long as they do it. That's good news for British Columbians who are waiting for safe, secure, affordable housing throughout…. [1515] The minister mentioned yesterday that they are still working with ongoing partners on some of these pro- jects and trying to strengthen partnerships. He said

THURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1957 yesterday that the partnership question is actually a mandatory component for projects proceeding. I don't agree with that necessarily. I don't think every society in every community would necessarily be able to bring in partnerships at the level the government likes, but that doesn't mean they don't need housing there. So I don't necessarily agree with that approach. Then again, it's two different philosophies. I understand that.

They have their ideology, and I have my different approach to providing safe, secure, affordable housing as a prior- ity for British Columbians. Out of those 1,000 units, is the minister anticipating that a number of them will actually proceed with ongo- ing work? If so, how many? Does the minister antici- pate there would be another announcement come for- ward announcing more affordable housing for British Columbia? Hon. G.

Abbott: In terms of the mandatory charac- ter of the partnerships, it is abundantly clear that in every case where a new affordable housing project is being contemplated, it will reside within a regional district, within a municipality or certainly within a health authority, and so on. All of those have resources they can bring to the table. Municipalities, in particular, frequently have land they are willing to dedicate to make projects work. In other cases, they'll bring DCC costs to the table; they'll bring servicing to the table. The health authority can bring to the table a commit- ment to funding beds.

There's a whole range of ways in which those partnerships can be built. Additionally, as I noted yesterday, British Colum- bia is the first province in Canada to sign a federal- provincial affordable housing agreement with the fed- eral government. I understand that Nunavut has since signed, and perhaps other provinces have as well, but British Columbia was the first. So we are able to engage federal dollars in those projects as well. All this serves to make the taxpayer's dollar in Brit- ish Columbia go further, produces more housing units and produces more public good as a consequence.

We believe that is exactly the right approach to take, and that is the one we're going to proceed with. J. Kwan: I asked the minister this question: of those 1,000 units or so that have been cancelled, how many does he think would actually proceed through further work around partnership? And is there a pending an- nouncement around those projects? Hon. G. Abbott: The question is of an entirely hy- pothetical character. Given that we don't know what additional resources any of those 20 or so projects might bring to the table, it's impossible to answer. J.

Kwan: The minister said he was hopeful that some of those projects would proceed. I think I heard him correctly on that. I would assume the staff at B.C. Housing would continue to work with some of these societies, especially where…. I would expect, actually, the societies would have to make this decision in the case where they don't actually have to incur extra costs. Otherwise, if the project doesn't proceed, they'll be out of pocket. I would assume that would be with groups who were prepared to take that risk, and I presume it would be with the understanding that there would be allocations down the road.

If there weren't allocations down the road, there's no sense in keeping on asking people to keep working on this. My question to the minister is: does he anticipate there will be further announcements in terms of af- fordable housing development in British Columbia? If so, how many units? What kind of ballpark are we looking at? How hard should these people be working to try to hang in there in the hopes that they may get the allocation reinstated? [1520] Hon. G.

Abbott: As I laid out in some detail last night, what we are going to be doing as a government is designing our housing policy around meeting the needs of the most vulnerable in British Columbia soci- ety. That may be the frail elderly, the mentally ill, the physically incapacitated, the homeless and so on. We will be targeting our precious taxpayer dollars to pro- duce the maximum number of housing units and the maximum public good from the expenditure of each and every one of those taxpayer dollars.

So, yes, certainly we will be hearing in the weeks, months and years ahead of further projects that will meet the bill in that regard. J. Kwan: Does the minister then mean to say that within his ministry budget he has additional dollars of unannounced projects, unit allocations that could be awarded to societies? Is that what he's saying? He's saying "weeks, months and years ahead." In the next four years, hopefully, this government will continue to commit to building affordable housing in its term.

Does the minister mean to say that in his existing budget now there are unallocated dollars that could be awarded to societies for the development of affordable housing? Hon. G. Abbott: A g a i n, t o re p e at wh at I s ai d , t hi s government is committed to attempting to address the housing needs of the most vulnerable in society. We have a budget allocation which we will use this year. We will be spending more on housing in British Co- lumbia this year than any government ever has before in the history of this province. We will be spending more than even the former government did with re- spect to housing.

We've made a commitment. We've got the budget dollars to back it, and frankly, again, one of the oppor- tunities and responsibilities we have on the govern- ment side is to ensure that every taxpayer dollar in this province is used to greatest and most beneficial effect. If the member is trying to probe a future policy here, the answer is the same as she would have given when she was on this side of the House; that is, that's

1958 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 future policy — unless I'm misunderstanding her ques- tion. The member's showing a degree of frustration across the floor, Mr. Chair, which concerns me. I do want to make her happy and provide satisfactory an- swers, but I'm not going to stray into the area of future policy in order to do it. J. Kwan: I wish the minister would be a little bit less suspicious. I'm simply asking these questions straight up, with no hidden agenda whatsoever. I'm just trying to get a sense of what is going on with this government around housing and its budget related to that.

I'm drawing on what the minister had said — most of it yesterday and some of it, I suppose, earlier today. The minister fails to understand…. Maybe I'm not clear. So let me just try this again. I know the minister is saying that this government is spending more money than any other governments before. Well, yes, of course, because the fact of the mat- ter is that in the housing budget when you build a pro- ject, it has a life that carries on for a minimum of 30 or 35 years. Those are subsidy dollars, and each year is cumulative. I understand that.

As you develop more housing, housing that was committed and built under the previous government, those costs continue. I un- derstand that too. With these 700 units of housing that are proceeding out of the 2,300 units of funding that were allocated and earmarked for housing under the previous government, 700 of those will proceed. I un- derstand that too. So of course the dollars will continue to increase until the subsidy runs out and the life of the project runs out, if you will. I understand that point. [1525] My point to the minister is this. He was suggesting that B.C.

Housing will continue to work with groups to build partnerships to get housing, hopefully, devel- oped in British Columbia. Out of this year's budget — and given that it is a three-year service plan; it's three years in the document that has been tabled — and then for the next three years in terms of the service plan in terms of this government's planning in the area of con- structing new, affordable housing, are we looking at…? Is there any more money in this year's budget for other units that have not yet been allocated? If so, how much, and how many units are we looking at?

Then the other question is: for the next two years within the service plan, can the community expect that there will be, at a minimum, 700 units of housing con- structed under this government? Hon. G. Abbott: The member got it mostly right in her last comments. Most subsidy agreements do run for 30 or 35 years. The great thing, of course, is that not all the units were built in the last ten years, notwith- standing the member's suggestion that they were. The last ten years perhaps seemed like 35 years, but it was actually only ten years.

We have opportunities as we move forward to try to address the housing needs of the most vulnerable in society. I think we've secured a healthy, responsible budget allocation for housing. W e a r e g o i n g t o c o n t i n u e t o w o r k v e r y h a r d w i t h all of our potential partners, including some of the folks who are among the list of projects that did not proceed yesterday. We'll continue to work with them, provided that we see their goals lining up with our goals, provided we see evidence that strong partner- ships are being brought into the equation.

I'm very optimistic that we will see lots of new, affordable hous- ing for British Columbians in the years ahead. J. Kwan: The minister just cannot resist, I don't think — so far he hasn't been able to demonstrate that he could — twisting my words and putting them out of context. I don't think I ever said — and I stand cor- rected if I said — that housing was only built in the last ten years. I don't think I ever said that, hon. Chair. I actually know that CMHC, the federal govern- ment, before they pulled out of housing in 1993, con- tributed significantly to the pool of affordable housing in British Columbia.

Ever since they pulled out, advo- cates all across the land, across Canada, have been try- ing to advocate for the federal government to come back to the table. Just last year they were starting to signal that they were coming back to the table with the SCPI grants, amongst others. For the minister to sug- gest that somehow I thought all of the housing in Brit- ish Columbia was built in the last ten years…. That is absolutely incorrect. We'll check Hansard on that, not to worry. [1530] The minister evades the questions I've asked, though. I guess he's just too intent on rhetoric.

I'll ask the minister this question one more time. I'll just ask one question at this point. We'll break it down so that I can get these answers and get through these estimates. I asked the minister the question…. They've an- nounced 700 units of affordable housing approxi- mately, and they have advised that they're continuing to work on developing housing and that hopefully there'll be other projects announced. Let's just start with this year's budget. Are there any dollars left over that are not yet allocated for the purposes of developing affordable housing? If yes, how much? Hon. G. Abbott: Yes. J.

Kwan: It truly is one question at a time, then. How many dollars are left over for the development of the affordable housing from this year? Hon. G. Abbott: We do have some funds remain- ing. We will be releasing further details with respect to additional activities at the appropriate time. J. Kwan: Correct me if I'm wrong, minister. We're in the estimates of housing, and within the estimates of housing we're trying to figure out how this spending is going to take place within the ministry. The ministry

THURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1959 has now announced 700 units. I'm not asking for spe- cific details around what units or what project or any- thing like that. I'm just wondering: within your budget, how much money is left unallocated for housing? The minister said there is money left over. How much? How many more units can British Columbians expect would be developed in British Columbia in this year's budget? Hon. G. Abbott: We do have some residual funds in the budget for B.C. Housing. Again, we are going to continue to work with our partners to explore what can be done.

Again, what will happen in the next weeks and months will depend on the nature of the discus- sions that we have. We are always looking for oppor- tunities to work with people, to do more, whether it's through housing units or rental supplements and so on. There are any number of opportunities that are available to us, but, again, we have to work with peo- ple in order to move ahead. I can't anticipate at this point every twist and turn that might occur in those discussions, but obviously we are going to be looking forward to further opportunities. [1535] J. Kwan: Hon. Chair, I can't tell from this minister.

Is it that he just doesn't know the answer or that he just doesn't want to give it? I don't think there is some big secret around these kinds of things. You know, if there's a budget, which the minister has, for housing and it will go to so many units…. In previous years, as far as I can recollect — at least, certainly within the period in which I served, in the last five years — when government comes out to make an announcement around housing, usually around budget time, they will say, "We are going to do 700 units; we're going to do 1,000 units, or 14,000" — whatever.

They make an announcement like that so that people know — right? Societies can prepare and try to sort of figure out whether they want to try and access those funds to develop housing projects in their society. It gives people a sense of what to shoot for — right? — and whether or not they should be putting their energies there. That's all I'm trying to get at so that people in the public would know, in this open and transparent gov- ernment, what it is they can shoot for.

If there are still dollars in the budget, which the minister has said there would be, how many more units can people anticipate they could apply for funding for to get projects devel- oped? That's all. In past practices, that's how it's been done. I'm just trying to get a sense, to give some more hope out there in the broader community. You know, the minister often accuses me of fearmongering. I'm trying to create hope in the community. It's good news; it actually really is.

I'll help spread the word — honest, I will — that there is more money within the government to do affordable housing: "You can look forward to this many more units in your community, so get working, guys, and get those part- nerships happening, and so on and so forth." That's all I'm trying to get at. Maybe the minister, if he just doesn't know the an- swer, can get up and say: "I don't know the answer. Sorry, member." Or he can just be honest and share the information. Hon. G. Abbott: Thank you. I'm glad I finally now understand the question.

We want to see societies, non- profits, come forward today if they wish. If they've got a reasonable proposal to make to us in terms of the funding being targeted appropriately, in terms of those important equity partnerships being in place, we may be able to move their project ahead. Again, these things don't happen overnight. People are constantly in touch with B.C. Housing. People should bring their ideas and their proposals forward. If they're ready today, bring them forward today. As soon as we can fit their project within our sustainable budget line, then we'll move.

The member is asking me to indulge in hypothetical exercises here. We don't know outcomes before the discussions begin. I have a great belief in the people of British Colum- bia wanting to come forward with good ideas and strong partnerships aimed at strengthening their com- munities. That's what this is about. We encourage them to come forward today. Whether the project is built this year, next year or the following year, we don't know until we work through the project detail. That's why Shayne and his team at B.C. Housing have been re- markably successful.

They are very expert and very knowledgable at working through those things. That is what I strongly encourage anyone who is interested to do. J. Kwan: Quite honestly, the minister is being — what is the right word? — very difficult, actually, in answering straight-up, straightforward questions. Maybe this is where the minister doesn't understand, and perhaps I can explain it to him. I came from the non-profit sector before I entered the dark side and became a politician. I used to write proposals. Societies, generally speaking, never have enough money to hire someone who will write proposals.

Many of the staff with societies and volunteers put their time in and pore over funding applications and proposals that come forward, trying to create these partners, trying to get a project up and running. They invest a lot of time, en- ergy and resources into that. [1540] Now, of course, in an environment where you could write as many proposals as you want and the government says: "There is no budget for this.

Please don't…." A case in point, as an example: if you send a proposal to the government for even a fabulous project with all kinds of partners, but the government only has a budget of, let's say, $2 million — I'm just using this as an example — and your project costs, let's say, $4 mil- lion even in partnerships with others…. Let's say the total cost of the project is — I don't know — $6 million. There's no point, you see, in bringing a project like that

1960 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 to the government's consideration. As I understand it, t h e s i g n a l ' s b e e n s e n t b y t h i s g o v e r n m e n t t h a t w e ' r e hell-bent on the bottom line, and very few things will actually derail us in that direction. It is important for the societies to know what it is they're looking at and what parameters they're looking for in order to apply for these dollars. I don't think it's a secret. Or maybe it is in this min- ister's mind — that it somehow is a big secret.

For him to say that within his budget he has this much money for unit allocations…. They have now announced 700 of those, and there's still a portion of it left over. Yes, it's all dependent on partnerships, and so on and so forth. How much is still left in the pot that people can work towards? How many units are out there? If you're looking at the government only having, let's say, another 50 units available in terms of funding for that, there's no point for someone to get a site, as an exam- ple, and put a project forward that has 75 or 100 units, because it's just a complete waste of their time.

I'm just trying to get a sense here from the minister, and I wish the minister would simply rise up and give a straight answer on those questions. Hon. G. Abbott: If the member is accusing me and the government of being fiscally responsible, I guess we'll have to plead guilty on that count. It is, at mini- mum, a refreshing change from what we had under ten years of NDP rule. Yeah, we are fiscally responsible. What we have done is move from an atmosphere and an environment of fiscal irresponsibility to fiscal re- sponsibility.

We have, however — and again, I'm de- lighted to say this — notwithstanding the difficult fis- cal environment in which we exist…. If the member had actually done her homework and looked at our three-year service plan, she would see that the budget allocation rises every year for hous- ing. Obviously, we are committed to more housing in British Columbia. That is entirely clear. If she looks at the three-year service plan, she'll get the number for each year. Now, I don't want to be unfair to the member, but people don't decide to put in a housing project today and expect that it's going to be built tomorrow.

It does- n't work that way. People have to work through, first of all, the parameters around which government wants to target its funding. Again, we have talked about that at length here — that we are going to be targeting the most vulnerable in society. We're going to be entertain- ing proposals from non-profits, from municipalities, from health authorities, from anyone with respect to things that might be done in that regard. We look for- ward to seeing those. First of all, we have to see that the project meets the parameters. The second thing we'll be looking is how strongly the proposal is partnered.

If the proposal is strongly partnered, it provides the government with much more flexibility around the timing to proceed. In any event, whether the project is conceived today or tomorrow or the next day, we have made a three-year commitment to a housing budget. Obviously, we are encouraging British Columbians to come forward with their ideas on how to strengthen housing for their communities and how to strengthen the health, vigour and economic and social well-being of their communi- ties. [1545] J. Kwan: I just want it on record for his staff's in- formation.

Earlier today, when we began the estimates, the minister asked me how long I thought I was going to be on the housing side. I advised the minister at that time that it would probably be about two hours if the answers were forthcoming and that we could probably move through the information and my questions at a fairly quick clip. It's obvious to me that that projection is not going to be achieved, so just for the minister's information and for his staff, I'm sure we'll be here until 6 o'clock. Then perhaps we'll back on Monday, as well, on the housing question.

On the issue around how many units and all of those kinds of things, the minister still hasn't provided the information for this year's budget. I don't know why that is. I don't know if there's some sort of secret p l a n o r i f h e d o e s n ' t k n o w t h e a n s w e r o r i f h e j u s t doesn't want to be forthcoming and transparent with British Columbians on that question. There is a budget within B.C. Housing. Within that budget, about 700 units of affordable housing has been allocated, so that budget has been targeted.

Then I asked the minister how much more is left over — how many more units we can expect down the road in this year's budget — and still he refuses to give that an- swer. I understand that in the process of creating part- nerships…. In the previous government, when you got more partners you could stretch those units bigger — more units for British Columbia. I understand that to- tally.

I'm not asking the minister to commit to saying they'll only do another 20 or another ten or anything like that, but to just give a sense of what hope British Columbians could have in the area of affordable hous- ing in terms of new units forthcoming, and he refuses. I don't know why he refuses to provide that answer. I don't think it's a big secret. Then I asked the minister: in terms of the coming years in his service plan, what kind of unit allocations can the public expect? Is it 700 units each year as a base? Is that the base that people can anticipate? The minister didn't provide the answer to that as well.

Fair enough, the minister is saying that both my colleague and I — and we hear this all the time in both Houses on estimates — should just pore through every single page of documentation that comes through from the government. We admit it; I admit it. There are only the two of us. We have to go through every set of esti- mates in this House, in addition to bills. Sometimes bills and supplementary estimates just get sprung on us ten minutes before we're in the House, and we do the best we can to try and research the information and go through this process and ask valid questions.

Some- times we might miss information. Sure, if you want to

THURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1961 criticize us for not spending enough time because there's only two of us and we have to go through 28 sets of estimates in addition to bills that come forward, I make no apologies for it. The member for Vancouver-Hastings and I are do- ing the best we can, and we're trying to get answers for British Columbians. I'd like to remind the minister, as well, that it isn't just us trying to find the answers to these questions.

A lot of British Columbians don't have the time themselves, either, to pore through the stacks and stacks of documents that come through from gov- ernment and to try and get some quick answers. For those members of the community who might be watch- ing, this might actually be useful for them if the minis- ter would just rise and give a straightforward answer to these straightforward questions. Hon. G. Abbott: The member doesn't have to apologize to me for the challenges they face.

The peo- ple of British Columbia made a choice back on May 16, 2001, about who was going to represent constituencies across this province. The last I heard, at least, there are still only two Houses here: Committee A and Committee B, the big House here. The member doesn't need to apologize. Even if neither of them could get to a set of estimates, they don't need to apologize to me. That's not a prob- lem, as far as I'm concerned. I'm happy to assist the member wherever I can in terms of trying to bring her information up to date.

That's great. [1550] I do want to say this, though, and perhaps this will be helpful to the member. What we have adopted is something other than the cookie-cutter programs we have seen in the past. Obviously, we are going to be looking to more innovation, more creativity and more flexibility as we develop new projects. These are famil- iar themes which I have been articulating through these estimates. I'm delighted to hear that we're going to be able to continue on until 6 o'clock. I know I personally wasn't going anywhere. Perhaps you were, Mr. Chair. I cer- tainly wasn't going to go anywhere.

I love the housing area, and I'm pleased to continue the discussion until six today. I guess if the member wants to, we could go even longer. We could go through the weekend. That would be excellent. I'd love that, personally. We could certainly go on to do it next week as well. That would be excellent as well. Certainly, we'd welcome that. We do need, as we move forward with housing….

I know sometimes it's difficult for people who have a particularly narrow vision to contemplate that there may be an opportunity for broader innovation, flexibil- i t y a n d c r e a t i v i t y i n h o w w e m o v e f o r w a r d . I t ' s n o t possible to say: "Well, if you've got X dollars, then you're going to get X number of housing units or X amount of public good out of that." We have moved away from a narrow approach. We are trying to embrace new ideas, with the purpose of maximizing the housing value and the public good that comes from the expenditure of every taxpayer dollar in this province.

I'll give the member an example. We have recently been able to assist a housing development in the city of Nelson. The assistance we've been able to provide was not a subsidy. There was no subsidy involved. We were able to assist with their financing. The housing project is going to be able to proceed as a result of that. That's an example of a new approach, some new innovation. Indeed, as we move forward, hopefully with many more projects in the future, we'll have an opportunity to celebrate that innovation and the re- wards that it can bring. The Chair: The member for…Vancouver–Mount Pleasant.

I'm going brain-dead here myself. J. Kwan: Thank you, hon. Chair. There's often only myself or the member for Vancouver-Hastings that rises up in this House and asks questions. In any event, thank you. The minister is eager to engage in the estimates process for housing. So too am I. It is a great area. It is an area I'm very passionate about. It's an area where I see in my own riding literally thousands of people are in need of safe, secure and affordable housing in Van- couver–Mount Pleasant. I represent people who live in the poorest riding in all of Canada. The average income is less than $20,000 a year.

In an area known as the downtown east side, people live in very substandard housing. They live in space generally spoken of as an SRO — single-room occupancy. Children and families are living in this kind of housing, not just singles. It is, generally speaking, a room that is 10 by 10. It doesn't have its own bathroom or kitchen. If you're very lucky, you have a sink. If you're doubly lucky, you have a hot plate. Those are the conditions that many people in my community live in. Housing is a very important issue for me as the MLA representing my community.

I know that as I travel throughout British Columbia, it's also a very important issue for other communities as well. [1555] I understand that there are situations whereby partnerships come forward with substantive dollars that sometimes would allow for government not to pay the subsidies. In fact, I know of one project in Vancou- ver where that did happen. It was an innovation — no doubt about it; lots of creativity. I actually credit the former chair of B.C. Housing, who's been very innova- tive around doing that kind of work in bringing about those kinds of projects. I credit, actually, the staff of B.C.

Housing on that score as well. I know they work really hard to try to materialize housing for people in British Columbia. I asked the minister a simple question, and he still didn't give me the answer. If he's not comfortable giv- ing how many units…. I tried asking this question in a number of different ways. How many units can we still anticipate? He said: "Well, you know, that would de-

1962 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 pend on what kind of partnerships." So I asked how much money has been set aside still within this year's budget — not future policy but this year's budget. How much money has not yet been allocated for the purpose of housing? All he has to do is rise in this House and give that figure so that I get a sense of what kind of hope could be anticipated by British Columbians who wish to see housing develop in British Columbia in partnership with the provincial government.

Again to the minister: how many provincial dollars for safe, secure, affordable housing construction devel- opment are allocated within this year's budget? Hon. G. Abbott: Again, the budget for B.C. Hous- ing for this year and for the coming two years is con- tained in the service plan as well. Further details are available in the estimates. Again, the member talks about the challenge on the downtown east side particularly. There's certainly no debate around that. We do find in that area some of the more compelling challenges with respect to housing as well as other social issues.

I'm delighted, actually, that a number of the projects announced yesterday are in that area. The Katherine Sanford Housing Society, a supported seniors project; the Portland Hotel Society on Carrall Street; the St. James Community Service Society on East 16th; the YWCA project on East Hast- ings — all are projects that were announced yesterday. Again, the member doesn't seem to be getting this point, but I'm going to try once again. I used the Nel- son example. I want to give another example of where we can act as facilitators for further housing through B . C . H o u s i n g .

T h i s i s i n t h e m e m b e r ' s r i d i n g . I t ' s a n SRO hotel. It was bought by the society — a 100-unit hotel, downtown east side. Again, no subsidy from B.C. Housing but, again, an innovative partnership where we have assisted with the financing. There are different ways we can do this. I know the member seems to be compelled to try to drive every- thing into a certain set of silos, but that's not the way it's working. We are going to celebrate innovation; we're going to celebrate creativity and ingenuity. We are going to work very hard with our partners to achieve successes.

The member may want to dwell on the past, but we're looking forward to the future. We know British Columbians are going to step forward, and we are going to achieve great successes in partner- ship with British Columbians, whether it's municipali- ties, other local governments, health authorities or non- profits. J. Kwan: The minister still hasn't answered my question, and I know he's purposely not answering that question. I don't know for what reason, other than to not be transparent. Perhaps we have to read between the lines.

Maybe there isn't really any more money al- located for housing left over for this budget. It may be that any project that is to be developed from B.C. Housing, from the provincial government, would not be funded by the government at all. In fact, it would be all these other partnerships that would take place. That's the only area where British Columbians can see housing develop. [1600] Let me try asking the minister this question. It seems that he's not prepared to share numbers with anybody. Let me try this question. The units that were announced yesterday…. Out of the 1,700 units, 1,000 have been cancelled.

The minister had announced 697 units of housing. How much was that in terms of the budget line for the 697 units of affordable housing? Hon. G. Abbott: The capital value of the 697 units, the 20 projects that were announced yesterday, is ap- proximately $100 million. The subsidy cost for those units, once they are built and occupied, will be ap- proximately $5 million annually. J. Kwan: I just got this from my office — just a note. I'm going to share it with the minister. Hopefully, it will assist us in moving forward.

The note reads as follows: "A taxpayer who's watching has called in to say that she's most annoyed that 'the minister is wasting my taxpayers' money in ridiculous rhetoric. Why won't he just answer the ques- tion?' She wants it clear that she is a member of neither party. She has also observed that 'the minister is conde- scending and rude' and that this behaviour does not befit a minister of the Crown. She wanted this informa- tion passed in to you, perhaps, for you to raise it." I'm sharing this with the minister. I hope the minis- ter will take this under advisement so that we can in- deed proceed…. Hon. G.

Abbott: Is it signed "Joy MacPhail"? J. Kwan: The minister says: "Is this signed by Joy MacPhail?" For the minister's information, the member for Vancouver-Hastings is in the small House going through the estimates of Energy and Mines. As is often the case between the two of us…. There are the two of us, and we split ourselves between each House to en- gage in the estimates process to try and find answers for British Columbians and to ask questions of the gov- ernment. Interjection. J. Kwan: T h e m i n i s t e r s a y s h e ' s g l a d t h a t I c o u l d show up for one set of the estimates.

Yes, both the member for Vancouver-Hastings and I try to split our- selves as best we can to do the work that we've been elected to do, and that is to be the opposition in this House. We try to show up whenever we can to carry on through the estimates process, through bills, through all the different work that is required of the members of the Legislature. The minister gave the information finally. At least I got some numbers from him. On the 697 units of hous- ing that were announced yesterday, about $100 million was dedicated for capital, and about $5 million has been allocated for subsidy costs annually.

I understand

THURSDAY, MARCH 14, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1963 from previous practices that those subsidy costs accu- mulate each year for, I assume, 35 years. Is that the life of these projects that have been announced — 35 years? Let's just start with that question first. Hon. G. Abbott: The answer to the question is that they are 60-year operating agreements and 35-year subsidies. J. Kwan: I wonder if the minister could advise this House: how much money was allocated on the capital side for this year's budget? [1605] Hon. G. Abbott: Again, the capital value of the projects, as the member asked, is $100 million.

The government capital is zero. This is a P3 model that uses private capital. The obligation of the government is the subsidy — the $5 million annual subsidy for 35 years. J. Kwan: I wonder if the minister could ask his staff to break down for me, then, for this year's budget on the annual subsidies side…. The first year is $5 million, I take it, and then each year it accumulates — right? It's $5 million, and then it increases. How much in this year's budget has the minister allocated for subsidy costs? Hon. G. Abbott: The answer to the question is $168 million in ongoing subsidies.

That wouldn't, of course, include the $5 million anticipated for the projects an- nounced yesterday. J. Kwan: Would the $163 million — $168 million minus $5 million — be for projects previously allocated and completed, or would it include those that are un- der construction and will be completed for this fiscal year? Hon. G. Abbott: The $168 million is the subsidy amount for those units that are completed, obviously, whether in the past or whatever. Until the unit is built and occupied, the subsidy amount does not apply. J. Kwan: Just to get it clear, the $168 million is for the projects that have been completed.

The ones that are under construction now…. Is the minister anticipat- ing that there are units that will be completed, so there- fore their subsidy would be required because they'll be completed and occupied within this fiscal year? If so, how much is the minister anticipating? For the an- nouncement of the 700 units, the subsidies on those projects have not been included in this year's budget because they have not yet materialized. They would not actually come into the budget until after they've been completed. Hon. G. Abbott: I hope I'm understanding the member's question correctly.

The $168 million does take account of the possibility of units that could be completed and occupied in the current year. Again, that's not likely to be a large number, given that all of the projects that were put on hold, effective last Octo- ber, were units that were not under construction at t

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0314pm-07
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0314pm 07
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	07acaeedca2f25def4b68c4216b0d4bbab6f3bd6

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).