Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, APRIL 17, 1975 SPEAKER : THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 34

April 17, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speak~r in the Chair. Tape 1522 (Afternoon) MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR, SPEAKER: The Hon. the Premier. HON. F. D. MOORES (PREMIER): Mr, Speaker, I would like to very PK - 1 sincerely ask this House of Assembly to join me in an expression of deepest sympathy in the passing of Percy M. Crosbie, As a member of one of our Province's most respected families he was a leader in commerce and a valued participant in community service.

I am sure that all Newfoundlanders were shocked as I was to learn of an untimt :ly passing early today in Puerto Rico. Percy Crosbie was a sincere and dedicated man, and his outstanding abilities and valuable contribution to this Province are well recognized. It will be difficult to imagine this Province going about its day to day business without the dynamic presence of Percy Cro°ii1bie. Mr. Crosbie was a tower of strength in the business community. He was fresident of Crosbie and Company Limited, and a nU1I1ber of other affiliated companies involved in almost every aspect of trade and commerce in this Province.

He was born in St, John's in 1913 and educated at Bishop Feild College and Prince of Wales College, and later he attended St. Andrew's College and McGill University. His attending of St. Andrew's College was shared by his ,nephews, by the Leader of the Opposition, and by myself. Newfoundland is a better place today because Percy Crosbie lived amongst us. May I as Premier of this Province, Sir, expres~ to the family of ~he late Mr. Percy Crosbie the most sincere condolences of the government, and I know Newfoundlanders everywhere join me in the expression of sympathy.

The Crosbie family, Sir, in a time like this has to be identified as one of the first f;milies in this Province whether it be through the late Mr. Percy Crosbic's father, through to the involvement of the Minister of Fisheries, responsf~le for Intergovernmental Affairs today as a nephew or whether it be through the dynamic interests of the Crosbie family throughout this Province. 4474

April 17, 1975 Tape 1522 (Afternoon) PK - 2 It is a very sorry day for this Province when a man of the calibre of Percy Crosbie and all that he represented. an entrepreneur which Newfoundland needs so badly passes away. And, Sir, I would ask this House, and I know that all Newfoundlanders join me in passing along sincerest sympathy to his family. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Labrador North. l•iR. W. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House join with the Premier and the members of the House in passing our condolence· along to the Crosbie family in the passing of Percy Crosbie.

He was not only a great man - I knew him personally. I dealt with him for a number of years - he was first in a number of things in this Province, first to venture into the Arctic and take adventurous Fewfoundlanders with him to help in the explo~ation of the High Arctic in the form of shipping. the first commerical vessels to go north into Eureka. He was a very adventurous man. He played a very important role in the formation of the Boys Club in St. John's, and was very active, and was not at all shy in asking for contributions to contribute to that worthwhile cause. I knew him for many years.

I have had many a conversation with him concerning the seal fishery. I syppose he is noted for the stand he had taken, Mr. Speaker, with regards to trying to preserve the seal fishery in this Province. He took great pride in a ntnnber of Newfoundlanders. All of his ships,he refused to have them registered abroad, they were Canadian ships and he kept them as such. All of other interests, his interest in the far North, and his interest in Goose Bay going back to the early '4O's. We all remember Percy Crosbie,the man he was, and some very unique characteristics.

He was very adamant with the federal government on the things that he wanted to see done in the Arctic and in this Province. And, Mr. Speaker, he will be missed by us all, and I join with the Premier in passing our condolence along to the family. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Finance. ::oN. R. R. V. EARLE (MINIST;ER OF FINANCE): Mr. Speaker, ~ cannot let this occasion pass without giving a personal condolence t~ the Crosbie family, and particularly the widow of the late Percy Cro~~ie in the ioss of such an outstanding gentleman. From the days that I first sat in 4475

April 17, 1975 Tape 1522 (Afternoon) PK - 3 the classroom at Bishop Feild College with Percy Crosbie, I knew him throughout all the years in an Association in the salt cod fish Business particularly, and later in many aspects of Newfoundland life. We sat together as Chairman and Vice-Chairman of the Newfoundland Associated Fish Exporters Limited, the Newfoundland Fish Trades Association, The Board of Trade and many other organizations. And in all his dealings Percy was a gruff man, in many occasions he was an outspoken man, but he was always a fair man.

He was unknown to many people in all his attributes which so many members have mentioned. He was also a man who was very thoughtful. I have seen many occasions when Percy Crosbie,in the midst of intensive business negotiations stopped to think of an individual, it might be an employee or some friend of his or some person, you would t hink at the moment that his mind was completely not associated with it. But he thought and he acted and he was always a friend to mankind. In giving my tribute I would like to point out these sterling qualities of Percy Crosbie.

He was a friend to many men and a friend to a lot of people,unknown to a great many others. And he never sought the limelight. He never tried to take credit for it. But he contributed to Newfoundland both industrially through his business acumen, and in many other ways far beyond the knowledge of most of us here. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Social Services. HON . A. J. MURPHY (MINISTER OF SOCIAL SERVICES): Mr.

Speaker, I would like the indulgence of the House to make a couple of short statements, but first before we do that, Sir, I too would just like to say a short word of how I feel about the late Percy Crosbie. I knew him mostly through his work with youth, through the Boys Club, and I join with the rest of the speakers in perhaps adding just a short word of tribute to such an outstanding Newfoundlander. Mr. Speaker, I would just like to give a short report on the distribution of frozen foods from the firm of McCain's.

Approximately 20,000 low income families, Sir, benefited from the distribution of McCain's frozen food. Approximately 1 million pounds valued at some $400,000 were given away in March and early April. The food was distributed by the field staff of our deparonent during regular working 4476

April 17, 1975 Tape 1522 (Afternoon) PK - 4 hours, S:1.r,as well as after hours and on weekends. And I. have the places listed here whic~ will later on, if any, if the House want to they can have a list. But there were some thirty areas of the Province, Sir, excluding - and I would say again our deep regrets that we could not get into Labrador . 1 would like to eh-press my gratitude, Sir, first of all on behalf of the peop.le of Newfoundland to McCain's Frozen Foods. I think that McCain's gift was deeply appreciated by government and by the people of Newfoundland.

There were many service groups here, bus-iness firms, transpo.tation companies, members of the clergy, as Yell as uiany individuals who assisted my staff in the distribution of this food. The co-operation received was excellent. And 1 Yish to express my sincere thanks and that of the depa'rtment to the many people who so willingly gave their time to help in the project. The result of the help received was such that the total cost, Sir, of distributing this good was much less than $1,000. 4477

April 17, 1975 Tape 1523 (afternoon) Ill-1 This would not have occurred, Sir, only due to road conditions in certain areas. McCain's trucks could not get there, the large trucks,and we had to get smaller trucks to distribute it in different areas. I would also like to thank, Sir, the media for the tremendous coverage that was given the project, especially, Sir, those radio stations who accepted our notices at very short notice really and let it get out t-o the people to know just where the 'distribution would be. I feel confident, Mr.

Speaker, that all honourable members join me in thanking in the first instance McCain's Food for their very fine gesture, and I would also like to add a personal word of tribute to ~r. Gerry Power 1 my assistant director of field services, Sir, who co-ordinated the entire programme, I have another short one here, Sir.

In our endeavor to bring improvement to our programmes and by so doing, Sir, improved conditions for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, one of the most recent developments is the training programme whereby social assistance recipients can register for courses designed for upgrading, training and retraining.

In all cases where individuals enter these courses regardless whether or not such persons are in receipt of social assistance, additional expenses are naturally incurred, Sir, As a consequence, I, as Minister of Social Services 1 through negotiations with the Department of Manpower and Immigration and the honourable Mr. Andras have arranged for an additional allowance of $10.00 per week to be paid to any social assistance recipient who enters any upgrading, training or retraining course. This $10.00 per week is in addition to any social assistance allowance already being received.

It is over and above, Sir, the regular allowance to a welfare family, and will not be considered as income when calculating social assistance allowance. I am very happy with this,Sir, Although the $10.00 a week does not seem to be a tremendous amount, Sir, I am sure it will help a great many of our people who through no fault of their own are not even receiving unemployment insurance, Sir, but have to receive social assistance. Jt will help them with bus fares and perhaps a little bit towards providin~ the little bit of necessary clothing that may be necessary, Sir, to enter 4478

Tape 1523 (afternoon) into the courses as I set out. 1"R. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Hermitage, is he replying to the minister1al statement. MR. SIM?AONS: Yes 1 Mr. Speaker. I would just 11ke to briefly reply to the statements of the Minister of Social · Services. First in relation to the matter of the distribution of the McCain's supplies, I thank him and his officials and particularly Mr. Power for getting IB-2 into not only my area, because I speak on behalf of all my colleagues, but into the various areas of the Province.

My assessment of the situation in talkine to some people is that people affected have been reasonably well satisfied with the way it was done and the general availability of these items to a fair number of people across the Province as the minister's statement indicates. I speak only from my experience in my own area. The one criticism I am going to inject,I am not suggesting it is universal across the Province at all. I would have been able to be of considerably more help to the minister and his officials had I been involved a hit earlier in the plans.

I did get involved at the minister's invitation just a few hours, forty-eip:h t hours perhaps, a couple of days before the distribution in Bay n'Espoir and the Connaigre Peninsula and Fortune !lay that distribution was affectecL Had I been able to be involved earlier I think we could have made the thing operate a little more effi~iently. As it was the Lion's Clubs in particular in Bay n'Espoir and Harhour Breton came through in their usual fine style on very short notice and were able to assist the minister's department in getting the materials to the places in the general areas that I have mentioned.

On behalf of my colleagues, I would also like to respond to the statement of the minister in reference to the additional allowance for those persons on social assistance who will be attending district vocational schools for upgrading purposes and for other purposes. "!R. MllFPHY: That is educational - MR. SIMl-'ONS: Yes. MR. MURPHY: Jnaud1hle. 4479

April 17, 1975 Tape 1523 (afternoon) IR-3 MR. SIMMONS: Yes. Well, first of all again we welcome thjs particular announcement. Any money of this nature made available to these persons can only be interpreted as being a benefit because those persons who are on assistance must be given every opportunity to upgrade themselves, to prepare themselves for re-entrance into the labour market and my colleagues and I certainly welcome this,yet another fine example of what federal and provincial co-operation and money can do when applied in consultation with each other. MR.

SPEAKER: Are there any other ministerial statements? The honourable Minister of Fisheries. HON. J. CROSBIE: (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): Yea, Mr. Speaker. Several days ago the Member for Hermitage raised the question of herring seiner activity in the Hermitage-Bay D'Espoir area. I have sent a message to Mr. Wallace Roherts of Hermitage,who also contacted me about it 1which I would like to read in the House. It says, "We have discussed the matter of herring seiner activity in the Hermitage- Bay D'Espoir area with officials of Environment Canada,Fisherles.

They advise that the whole question of herring seiner and dragger activity in inshore waters is under active consideration. Any direct action in support of your request pertaining to "Line and delineated areas" will have to be taken by Environment Canada hecause the management of fisheries falls within federal jurisdiction. However, the Province realizes this is a very complicated situation involving gear conflict and resource harvesting by different groups of fishermen deploying different different types of fishing gear.

I will be watching the situation in your area very dosely and may find it necessary to make direct representation to the Altantic Herring Management Committee, the agency responsible for herring quota allocation between offshore seiner and inshore herring fishermen along the South and South West Coast. Now, that is the position with reference to the Bay D'Espoir area, Mr. Speaker. The question of the regulation of herring seiners or quotas and the like is all within the jurisdiction of the Department of Environment of Canada. We of course can make representations and we 4480

AprH 17, 1975 Tape 1523 (afternoon) havP done so. I wrote the - there is an Atlantic Herring ~anagement Committee chaired by ~r. Creeper of the federal department, and I wrote him several months ago and said that in our view,the Province's view, that any inshore area where no quota was set for the catching of herring hy seiners or otherwise should be an area that is not IB--4 fished until a quota is set.

Tt is our view that in areas where they have not got enough :1.nformation to date to set quotas or to appoint lines w:lthin whjch seiners do not operate and so on, that they should not penn1t any fishing activity in those areas until they have set the quotas and have the information. The reason why 1 bring this up again this afternoon is that at the present time the fishermen of Aquaforte in Ferryland District are very much upset and agitated because there are two herring seiners who are now catching herring in their area.

They say they have caught some 350 tons which I believe they are landing at t.he plant at Fermeuse and they are protesting against this activity and they have been calling the Department of Fisheries, provincial,and they are talking about marching on Confederation Building end whatnot. Now, :It is useless for those fishermen to march on Confederation Ruilding or to march anywhere except on the Department of the Environment, federal 1or the Department of Fisheries at Ottawa because that is the government that has the jurisdiction.

In the meantime I am wiring the Chairman of the Atlantic Herring Management Committee which advises the federal government on these matters,asking them to take this under consideration and to advise the federal officials as to what they should do in connection with the Aquaforte area as well as Bay D'Espoir 4481

April 17, 1975 Tape no. 1524 Page l - mw or otherwise. It is not an easy question, but our position is that we should protect the herring stocks for the inshore fishermen except and unless there are quotas set and there is sufficient information known to be able to make a decision as to within what areas seiners operate and what areas should be left strictly for the inshore fishermen. That is our position, and we have advised them of our views, and the fishermen or their members should contact their federal members and should contact the Department of the Environment,Fisheries

section at Ottawa or wire Mr. Creeper the Chairman of the Atlantic Herring Management Committee. And in addition to that, of course, we are bringing this to their attention and advising them that action should be taken. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Hermitage. _MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, just a brief response to the statement of the minister concerning the herring seiners and the problems being created not only in my own district but in the Ferryland district as well. On behalf of my colleagues just let me say,first of all,we appreciate the concern that the government is showing on this.

I have done most of the things that the minister has outlined should be done. I wired just about everybody whose name I can get hold of on this particular matter. I appreciate and my colleagues appreciate, of course, that it is indeed a federal matter just as the Continent•l Shelf question is and the HaJllilton Banks question is. The precedent shows, of course, that both these matters were of sufficient concern to this House and to the government that we also saw fit to take a stand on that issue.

I would say to the minister that likewise he and his government should see fit to take a stand on this particular issue. It is not enough, Mr. Speaker, to say that it is a federal matter. It is that. But it is a matter which affects sufficiently large numbers of people that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador should take a particular stand on it and then make representation, make a set of recoD111endations if you like,or a recoDll!endation to the federal people to Mr. LeBlanc and whoever else may be involved, a specific recoD111endation which sets forth 4482

April 17, 1975 Tape no. 1524 P~e 2 - mw . the concerns of the Province in this matter and which adequately reflects and represents the concerns of the people who are being directly and adversely affected by the herring seiners'presence in those bays. I agree also with the minister that it is a difficult problem. It is a touchy problem,if you like,because there are people affected from different, depending on what action you take, µeoµle affected, I am trying to say, from different points of view or different stances.

If you take one stance, you are going to affect favourably the inshore fisherman who is depending on these fish stocks,and if you take that same stance, you may well,in some respects, adversely affect the plant workers who are depending on the additional herring stocks to keep the plants operating full time and, therefore, give them, the fish plant workers, a full pay cheque at the end of the week. So it is a delicate problem. I quite agree with the minister. But I do say, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues, I do say that the delicacy of the problem is no reason to alone pass the buck.

It is all the more reason why government ought to take a stand on it and then make that stand known to Ottawa ,who I reoognize,or which I recognize will finally have to make the ultimate decision on the matter. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, a point there. You know, I have already explained, I thought, that we have made our position known to Ottawa, and we made it known several months ago which I just explained in my statement. Now it is up to them to act and to make a decision. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Placentia East. MR. AYLWARD: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from the residents of Come By Chance and the prayer of the petition is that water and sewerage be installed in that community. While at the present time the main road in the area is under construction and the residents state that this would be a very, very suitable time to install water and sewerage before the road is upgraded and paved. 4483

April 17, 1975 Tape no. 1524 Page 3 - mw They had made representations to the honourable minister who was glad to meet with them on two or three occasions, and I know that man must practically shiver in his seat at all these petitions, Mr.

Speaker, and in a sense, I suppose, if we are human at all, we would have to apologize to anyone who has to bear the burden that that particular gentleman bears in that particular portfolio, and I would like at this tillle to really thank him for the kind receftion he has given the council at Come By Chance as well as the other town councils who have had occasion to meet him and call upon him to have representations made to obtain funds to install water and sewerage. I know he is quite aware of the situation, Mr.

Speaker, but the residents of that community feel that while there is so much talk, I suppose there is no place in Newfoundland or in Canada really as well-known as Come By Chance itself, but oddly enough that particular community has no water and sewerage facilities apart from a private installation which was put in there by the company to acco11111odate twenty or thirty homes which were built for the senior personnel at Come By Chance. So as matters now stand in that community, Mr.

Speaker, its proximity to the Come By Chance complex, there are a large number of individuals from the area itself really who work at Come By Chance who would like to live in that particular area. Without water and sewerage, they cannot obtain a building lot, and because there are no serviced building lots available, they try for crown land, and all crown land in the area is frozen. That is if you, Mr. Speaker, were tod•y a resident of Come By Chance or your forefathers,and they left you considerable tracts of land and although this was a large area, you could not obtain a permit to build.

So the situation in the community is that all growth has been completely halted because you cannot build unless you build on serviced lots, and there are no serviced lots available, and,of course, as far as crown land is concerned, there are no applications being granted to residents to obtain crown lands to build upon. 4484

April 17, 1975 Tape no. 1524 Page 4 So, as I said before, I know of all the large number of delegations in all the municipalities that have been making representations to the minister. This, I know, is one of many. I am sure he is aware of it. But I sincerely trust that it will meet the support of all sides of this House and also, of course, the Hon. Minister of Rural Development,whose district borders on mine and some of the people who signed this petition, he is also affected. So if there is ever a change 1I suppose,in portfolios and the honourable present minister should get a rest and the Hon.

Minister for Rural Affairs should move over, then probably there will have a little more hope. But I sincerely trust that this petition will meet the support of everyone concerned, and I ask that it be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. B. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, on behalf of my colleagues I would like to support the petition presented by the member for Placentia East on behalf of the residents of Come By Chance for the installation­ or is it the extension? - of the water and sewerage system in that particular c0111111unity.

Sir, I think, there is hardly a more important area of the Island part of our Province at the present time than the Come By Chance area because of the oil refinery out there and the possibility of an extension to that particular oil refinery and hopefully other spin-off industries, Andthis is a case, Sir, where I think water and sewerage obviously is very badly needed and extreme and forward planning is necessary in that particular area of the Province because obviously we are going to have a concentration of population in that particular area.

And I sincerely hope, Sir, that the people of Come By Chance will have more than simply a kind reception from the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing and that fund1 will be forthcoming for this particular project. Well, Sir, in closing 4485

April 17, 1975. Tape 1525 RI! - 1 I would simply like to say that I hope that the water and sewerage at Come By Chance will more than come by chance, I suppose. It is as simple as that. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Rural Development. HON. J. REID: Mr. Speaker, I certainly wish to support this petition which was so ably presented by the Member from Placentia East. We held meetings with these people out in that area and certainly the need is there.

It is certainly a growing community, a lot of new homes r;oing in that particular area,and I think that certainly because of lack of water and sewerage in that particular community certainly can hamper the progress of the community. We held several discussions on this with people from there and the Member from Placentia East and I certainly go along as well as the member supporting this petition. I think it is very necessary and I certainly hope there is certainly a possibility this year that the minister can see fit to help, at least, start to get going on a water and sewerage system in Come By Chance. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and !lousing. HON. B. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, let me say, first of all, that every consideration was be given this year to beginning the water and sewer project for Come By Chance. Of course, when one talks about the Come By Chance area one is talking about a number of collUl\unities, distinct communities, and by just installing a system in Come By Chance does· not alleviate the other needs for water and sewer in surrounding areas. But, nevertheless every consideration will be given to it.

I met with the council from Come By Chance last week and we are having another meeting on the Come By Chance situation, not as it only relates to water and sewer but other crown land and planning and housing developments there, on nine o I clock on Friday morning, April 18 at which time we are hoping to make some definitive decisions for the council in relation to the development of that collUl\unity.

I just want to assure the honourable member for Placentia East and the honourable Member for Trinity South that every consideration will be given to their request and I was pleased last Fall after I took over the portfolio to go with the Member for Placentia East out to Come By 4486

April 17, 1975 . Tape 1525 RH - 2 Chance to meet the Chairman of the Council out there and to have met him just recently. J1R. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions? NOTICE OF MOTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Health. llON. DR. A. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce in this honourable House a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Medical Act." ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPF.AKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: A question to the Minister of ~anpower and Industrial Relations, Mr.

Speaker: Has the minister received a request from any of the representatives of the Nl!l~foundland Teachers' Association for the appointment of a conciliation officer to assist in their contract negotiations with the Treasury Board? MR • SPEAKER : The honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. Hot1. E. MAYNARD: No, Hr. Speaker, I have not received any requests from the Newfoundland Teachers' Assocation. Under the Newfoundland Teachers' Collective Bargaining Act any requests for conciliation services are made to the Chairman of the Labour Relations Board.

I understand that the Chairman has received a request for conciliation services and :It is now being considered by him. ru1. TTOlJE: - - - - -· A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: When was the request received? Can the minister indicate when the request was received? l1R. MAYNARD: No, I cannot say when the request was received by the Chairman. I believed it was two or three days ago but I am not quite sure. The request does not come through my office :In the case of the Teachers' Collective Bargaining Act. MR. ROWE: ------ A supplementary to the minister, Mr.

Speaker: Who acts upon the request, the Chairman of the - MR. MAYNARD: The Chairman. - ------- ~_ROHF:.:.. Is there any indication when and if he is going to act upon the request? Is there any time frame when the Chairman has to act on this 4487

April 17, 1975. Tape 1525 RJI - 3 particular request? MR. MAYNARD: I am not quite sure the time limits that are considered in the act, Mr. Speaker, but I would think that the Chairman would act on the request within a couple of days and I would assume that he would use the conciliation services presently existing in the department, one of the officers. MR.

ROWE: Another supplementary: Would the minister indicate or be kind enough, Sir, to undertake to find out and report to the House what approximate time suth action will be taken or else we are going to have to leave negotiations dragging on, we are going to have the whole situation stalemated. I realize that was statement, Mr. Speaker. A question, Sir, to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

Sir, in view of the fact that in January, 1973 in the Throne Speech the government s&id that the government had laid the ground work and the framework for a whole new concept in local government, Sir, could I ask the minister why the Whalen Royal Co111111ission was set up if this frame­ work and ground work had been set up? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the broad outlines for any development of municipal government in this Province has been put in place, the broad outlines.

How that is to be filled in will depend to a large extent upon the Whalen Royal Commission and other commissions that might be designed or set in motion from time to time. So, I see no conflict in what the honourable gentleman is talking about. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member from Bonavista North. MR. P. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Highways and Communications.

Could the minister inform this honourable House if the contract for the road, Highway 320, thP Loop Road will be let shortly or could he give us some idea when we can expect when the contract is going to be called for? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. 4488

April 17. 1975. Tape 1525 RH - 4 Hp_~! -_) . ROUSSEAU: This is the programme that was announced, the DREE nror,ramme 1is it? I\N HONOURABLE MENBER: Inaudible. IIR. ROUSSEAU: Oh, yes. Well, these programmes,and I cannot tell the honourable member the exact date,but we are calling the DREE contracts as the honourable member recognizes on an anticipation basis, anticipating the signing of the agreement. This is a mutual agreement between DREE and the officials of the department and I cannot tell you in which· order it is.

I would have to check with my officials but they will all be called on an anticipation basis and if the one for the area that the honourable member refers to has not been called, I am sure that the calling is only shortly away. If he wants the exact time, I could check with the officials. I do not know the order they are doing them in. That is quite accurate but I will check.

It is in the process and when that one is called or another one is called, I do not think - whatever it is it is the agreement between DRF.F and ourselves when they are called and their anticipation of a signed agreement which we hope we would have imminently again hut I will certainly undertake to find out when that particular one will be called for the honourable member. l''R • SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Hermitage. MR. SUl}j"ONS: A supplementary for the minister: It is good to see him in his usual good form again today.

A supplementary for the minister: Can he indicate now when he expects the DREE agreement may be signed? }fil. ROUSSEAU : No, I cannot really. I presume, I am in a good mood today so it is safe to ask a question. - HP.. SH1MONS: Okay. HR. ROUSSEAU: But anyway, I do not know. They are imminent. I think right now - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. l!R. ROUSSEAU: Imminent. It is on the way through the process. I think generally it could be said without fear of contradiction that agreement 4489

April 17, 1975. Tape 1525 RI! - 5 in principle has been reached. I presl.Dlle it is at the Federal Cabinet or Treasury Board level, ,wherever it is AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ready to go to Treasury Board. MR. ROUSSEAU: Ready to go to Treasury Board and as soon as that is approved. But we have the agreement as I mentioned to the honourable Member frOl!I Bonavista North, agreement in principle and we are calling these anticipatory tenders, mutual agreement on both sides and I say imminent. I hate to keep sayingimminent every day for weeks, but it is out of our power now.

We have agreed in principle on the programme and now all we have to do is wait for signed agreements to the programme and I presume as soon as the Federal Treasury Board approves that a joint announcement will be made by DREE and ourselves. MR. SIMMONS: Another supplementary to the minister: Presuming the contract, the tender date arrived before theagreement was slgned with Ottawa, what would happen to these tenders? Will they be held in abeyance or would a conditional award be made? MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, we take out the first one,which was an unusual situation in Burgeo because of the remoteness of the area and the early call on that. These will be called and we intend to press DREE for a signed agreement. Their agreement to call these anticipation tenders would indicate to us that there will not be any great holdup in it but the programme will not be stopped. Normally the construction companies have been very co-operative.

If we say, look, we are still waiting on the programme, when these come in I am sure that they will understand the situation and I am certain that they would hold off for a period beyond the tender date which they have done in other areas when we have been involved in a DREE agreement and have not received them.

So, I do not anticipate a lack of co-operation from the construction companies on that point and when they become due we will be pressinr, Ottawa to let them know that these tenders are now prepared to be awarded and continue hopefully to get an agreement signed much quicker than we would under normal circumstances. But in the event 4490

April 17, 1975 Tape No. 1526 NM - 1 that we do not I am fairly certain 1if not certain,that the construction companies would co-operate and understand the situation, Arid normally what we would tell them on an unofficial basis wouid be to move your equipment in the area, we cannot sir,n it until we get the actual signatures from Ottawa ourselves . MR. SIMMONS: So, just to make certain I understand the minister on the point, is the minister indicating that the contracts will not be awarded until the agreement is signed with Ottawa? '.'fR. R0USSEAU: Yes, but not necessarily so.

Now we have awarded some. lt depends on the situation. You know1 if Ottawa will tell us, go ahead and sign verbally, you know, they are men of honour so we will accept that.But we have to have some indication that there will be money available for that particular programme. We have no reason to believe it would not be because we have already agreed in principle on the programme. }IR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista North. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the honourable Minister of liiP,hways. The upgrading of the Trans-Canada has been at a standstill for three years now.

Is there a further agreement in this new upcoming DREE ap.reement to cover the two sections of the Trans-Canada Highway that are not upgraded? MR . SPEAKER: _MT{. ROUSSEAU: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. No, there is not. We submitted it but apparently ·- and if I may I would like to answer the question completely so that it is put in the proper prospective, When we met with Mr.

Marchand, the Atl&ntic Ministersresponsible for transportation some six weeks or e ip.ht weeks ago, 1 forget exactly when it was, we had one item on the agenda and that item was to have some discussion on the highways s trenp.thenin!': pro p, ramme that the Ministry of Trans'J'crt and DREE, this was the Ministry of Transport, signed in Western Canada and the agreement was on a fifty-fifty basis for highways strengtheninc of the main artery, th e Trans Canada Highway • Now here that would apply to the 4491

April 17, 1975 Tape No. 1526 NM - 2 Trans-Canada Highway as well as the Argentia Access,which is part of it. And at that time Mr. Marchand was not prepared to discuss it with any of the Atlantic Provinces. I think his feeling was that, you know,just because he goes out in Western Canada he does not want to come into Eastern Canada and do the same thing because they would have a leapfrogging effect. We certainly feel that it is very important.

I think the honourable member's area,I guess east of the Gamba Overpass,is a very bad area and as a matter of fact we have had rneetinp.s on that and something will have to be done with that regardless. If it is to be done with provincial funds 1it will be done. Generally speakirir, there are a lot of bad areas along the Trans-Canada but the worst areas in the official~' estimation are the five miles from Port Blandf0rd into the Park. But the twenty-odd miles from the park to Square Pond, and also from S't.

Ceorge's out in the Crabbs River area.and other areas around, especially east of the Gander Overpass where there are - what? - three or four very deep frost bumps which are very difficult. This morninr- I had a talk with officials in an attempt to try and get that rectified. We cannot do anything until the frost comes out of the gro,md. I even suggested possibly cutting it out and putting sone sand there until we can pave it,but they say that will be worse. We are looking at it. As soon as we can do something there we will do it and we will continue to press the federal government for some sort of a progrannne.

AndI do not only say this province but we are on all fours with the other three Maritime Provinces on this in an attempt to secure some fund for a hi~hways strengthening programme. Right now on those parts that really need to be done, not those that we would like to have done, you are talking in the area of maybe $75 million to $85 million, $90 million, which is quite a lot of money. Now we may have to take some of the provincial funds, some of the money in the budget this year to do parts of the Trans-Canada, 4492

Apr-il 17, 1975 Tape No. 1526, NM - 3 especially now with the traffic goinp over it we have some concerns as well with trucking, Price is now going to dicontinue the use of the railway for shipping newsprint and other things from r,r~nd Falls to Botwood and that is going to be using part of the hiphway.

We are concerned about that. 13ut we will continue to pr-ess for some apreement with the federal government in respect t0 a highways strengthening programme and because of the large cost involved it is difficult for this Province to undertake it solely with provincial funds.And if we are unable to consumate some apreement with them, those parts, especially the parts east of the r,ambo Overpass which I think is up to a quarter, half of a mile, somewhere in that area, we intend to do everything possible.

I do not want to say,yes, we are going to do it, but I certainly hopeful that something will be done this summer so that that problem would not exist again. MR. SPK~KER: The honourable Member for Twillingate. MF. GILLETT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the same minister, the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications, Several hids have been called, Mr. Speaker, for upgrading and paving throughout the Province and I am wondering if any of these bids are solely the responsibility of the provincial government or whether they are all TIREE-shared programmes. "ffi.

ROUSSEAU: The bids that are solely provincial government's are solid bids. The bids that you see~it is anticipated that- and that is the only way I can say itJ you know - this leads off with anticipation. It is not a concrete bid.

But it is anticipated hy, as I said.mutual agreement between DREE and ourselves that we would II JI call these anticipating a signed contract • The only one that has been really started,! guess,is down in the Burgeo area, because of the remoteness we would want to start as early as possible in getting e<]uinment and so on down there, But the ones that lead off with, and of course I do not read them,to be quite frank with you,but I would assume that it would state that it is a joint venture between the r,overnment of Canada and the Government of the Province in respect of 4493

April 17, 1975 Tape No. 1526 NM - 4 those that are DREE and of coure the provincial ones will be strai ght provincial, solid provincial tenders called. MR. GILLETT: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker; then the bids have been called before the estimates have been brought down and before the actual road work has been determined, is that correct, Mr. 1-linister? You know the reason I am asking that. MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes, I am well aware of the reason. What we are attempting to do now is,you know,we have to do reconstruction in one year and normally paving in the next. Normally we do not reconstruct and pave in one year.

So normally the roads that are reconstructed, you know,we are certain that these are going to be paved, otherwise the roads deteriorate and the amount of money we spent on the reconstruction and upgrading, if we miss a year,we will probably have to be put back in reconstruction and grading 1 maybe,if we wait for two or three years. And also to, you know I suggested yesterday, I would like to put this point on record, that we have to reconstruct, and the way to go really from our viewpoint now with the costs of a mile of paving escalating like it is, is to reconstruct and upgradr sufficient roads in an area.

That does not mean that one road has to be continuous. It can be a number of roads that total a large enough mileage so that we can get a decent bid on it. So our hope would be to reconstruct in an area so that when there are enough roads ready in a given area for reconstruction to call the pavement tender on it because if the price is as I suggested at $25 or $30 a ton for asphalt plus $6 for oil you are talking about $35 or $35,000 per mile just for asphalt and oil and I suggested yesterday, a year or so ago down on Deer Lake - Wiltondale Road it was about $9 a ton so the costs are escalating.

But we would hope in order to get the most efficient returns on the taxpayers'money to upgrade and reconstruct enough so that a job would be avaialble in an area that would give us the best return on our money . MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North, 4494

April 17, 1975 Tape No. 1526 NM - 5 MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the honourable the Premier, Sir. In view of the fact that in October 1971 in a campaign speech he promised that he would reduce the size of the Cabinet if elected, could the Premier indicate what he is plann1np. to do about the size of his Cabinet? AN llf1N. ME!IBER: Yes, he is goin~ to call an election. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, it is not a matter of major importance but at the time we came in the size of the Cabinet was twenty-one with Mr. Smallwood and we have reduced it considerably since then.

Twenty-one when they went to the election. AN HON. MEMBER: Twenty-two was it not? MR. MOORES: Twenty-one. MR. ROWE: Another question for the Premier, Mr. Speaker. Sir, in view of the fact that in the April 1972 Throne Speech, it said that an Independent Redistribution Commission would be a permanent one and that it would report regularly to the House, has the Premier abandoned that particular principle of a permanent Royal Redistribution Commission, S1 r? "'IR. MOORES: No, 1'1r.

Speaker, I think that should be an ongoing process and I think it should be an ongoing process to continue to review the populat1on trends in this Province as the industrial development which is bound to happen will occur, I think it is very important that we do have a continuous report on what changes need to be made because with the developm~nt of the Province as will undoubtedly occur in the next ten years, anything else would be wrong because with the prosperity that is happening in this Province today, Mr.

Speaker, and which will happen in the future with our natural resources, whether we are talking about hydro electricty, whether we are talking about oil and gas or whether we are talking about whatever, we will have people who will hrinp in a continuous review of the electoral boundaries. Is that what you were talking about or not? MP. ROWE: Yes. You would not believe it from the answer, Mr. Speaker. Okay.The Premier obviously agrees with the nature of the question, but Sir, I would like to ask him specifically what his administration have 4495

April 17, 1975 Tape No. 1526 NM - 6 done about appointing a pennanent redistribution conunission because this was a statement that was made and that is the point that I want to make. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I agree that one should be appointed permanently and 4496

April 17, 1975 Tape 1527 (afternoon) IB-1 certainly that will be done. I see no reason why it should not be done very quickly. 1 think it should be an all party decision 1by the way. I th:lnk it should be a mutual decision of this House because I think it is basically the right thing to do. As you 1Mr. Speaker, well know, Sir, and the members of this House, the redistribution which has come in for some controversy in fact for the first time does have population perimeters of 8,000 to 12,000 people. No longer do we have districts where there are 3,000 people and others where there are 17,000 people. It is a start.

It is not the end, Sir. It still has a long way to go. But, the start that has been made will mean that people of this Province will have better and truer representation than they have had in the past.

Certainly an all party support of a permanent commission, and I see no reason why both parties in the House or it is three parties in the House, I am sorry, cannot get together to identify who the members of that commission should be 1or possibly the offices that people hold in the Province who could make up that commission could he, why we should not get together and have an agreement as to how often it should be reviewed and by whom. MR. F. ROWE: Well, the natural supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, is when: When noes the Premier intend to prov:! de such a situation? MR.

MOORES: If we could ever find the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, maybe we could get to~ether and talk about it in such a way that would be meaningful to, as I say, make it an all party decision - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Call an election and you will find him, I tell you. ~- ~OORES: because it is something that is beyond partisan politics. !lecause the !"ember for Bell Island today is adrift and because the Leader of the Opposition is not here is not really, Sir, something that we can do anything about. But, certainly if and when he comes back, we would gladly get together with him and talk about this. Mr-.

F. rrnm: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. If such a permanent redistribution commission is set up, will the government abide by the recommendations of that royal commission or that commission or will they not abide., like they did in the last one and gerrymander the seats after they have received the recommendations. 4497

April 17, 1975 Tape 1527 (afternoon) IB-2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect it is not a matter of gerrymandering the seats, As the honourable member knows we have prog~essed from joeymandering the seats to the stage we are at now where there is true representation. I would think that any commission in the future will at least have a sound base to go on which was not the case in the past. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to that.

The Premier received some representation from Labrador of their concerns about redistribution. Maybe he can tell the House now if there will be a census taken before the next election or if he sees fit to change the electoral boundaries in Labrador? MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, the fact is that we have had a P,reat deal of representation, not a great deal but maybe a dozen letters of representation from Lahrador,all from the New Labrador Party which was appreciated for the concern they had; we did not have any from any Liberal association in Labrador, Mr, Speaker, even though the honourable Member from Labrador North is fully aware of the presentations that have been made. MR. WOODWARD: We did our thing in the House. MR. MOORES: But, the fact is, Sir, that the census for Labrador West is being done,as I understand it,at the present time.

Now, when we talk about populations, I think that is the area of Labrador that is particularly - at least I have been advised MR. WOODWARD: And the Goose Bay area too. MR. MOORES: - is much higher than we have been led to believe. MR. WOODWARD: Yes, and the Goose Bay area too . MR. MOORES: The Goose Bay-Happy Valley area 1 as the honourable member knows, is presently much below :l.n population than any other seat in the Province with the exception of Labrador South or the Coast of Labrador - MR, WOODWARD: No, Eagle River. MR. MOORES: Or Eagle River or whatever it is it is called. The fact is 4498

April 17, 1975 Tape 1527 (afternoon) IB-3 that Labrador, Sir, with the tremendous development that is going to happen in the future, I would think would have considerably more seats than they have today. The commitment we made to assess the Labrador statistics will be done as soon as these statistics are available. As I say the census in Labrador West is ongoing now. The enumeration is ongoing.ps I understand it, Sir, in most districts in the Province rip.;ht now. MR. WOODWARD: Before or after the election, though "Frank". AN Hr N. t!EMBER: It depends when an election is. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Labrador South. MR, MARTIN: I have a question, Mr. Speaker, for the honourable Minister of Transporation and Connnunications. It concerns the ferry service on the Straits of Belle Isle. In view of the fact that it is an inter-provincial service and therefore comes under the federal jurisdiction and also in view of the fact that it is totally inadequate, I am wondering if the honourable the minister has any plans underway to make that a totally provincial ferry and if so, when we can see some action on those plans? MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communication. "IR. ROUSSEAU: I have to take that question under advisement. You know, it is possible that something has been done in the department. I would have to check that at the departmental level. I undertake to have the reply for the member tomorrow as to either what we have done,if anything, or what we anticipate we can do if we have not done anything. r1R. 'lARTIN: A supplementary to that, Mr. Speaker.

I am wondering if the minister could just indicate whether or not representation has been made to his ~epartment to the effect that there is a vessel available, that there i!S II ferry th11t was operating on the Upper St. Lawrence that is available now in the event that the Province wishes to take up this individual's offer. 1--'R. 1101'SSF.All: You know, I rlo not know if 1 can rememher all the letters rlnwn at the department. I do not recall it. But, I do recall something about the ferry service. Now, if that was the letter t.he honourable member referred to or not, I do not know.

Hut, if I did receive a letter jt would have been passed on to the director of transporation who 4499

April 17, 1975 Tape 1527 (afternoon) rn-4 would look into the matter. So, if I have received a letter, yes it is being looked into. I cannot say for certain that I have received that particular letter hut I do recall - and that might have been within the past three or four months - ·receiving a letter in respect to the ferry from the Great Northern Peninsula to the Southern part of Labrador. As the honourable member knows of course, we are providing the air subsidy there while the boat is off. We will continue that as long as it takes for the boat to come back on.

I want to take a check with the department as to what is being done or what is intended to he done if nothing has been done. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I have a question again for the minister. I do not think this one will touch a raw nerve, Sir. Sir, in view of the fact that nineteen subcommittees were set up in connection with the task force of 1972 - the only one that I have heard that has heen made public is the one on the forestry subcommittee report.

Are there any other reports available now and if so, are they going to be made Is the Premier dead or alive, Sir? I did not bear it. available. MR. MOORES: :MR. F. ROWE: listening. Oh. Will I repeat it? I am sorry, I thought you were Well, Sir, the question was that in 1972 there were nineteen separate subcommittees of the task force set up and to my knowledge only one report has been made public, that of the forestry report. I was wondering if there are any other reports available and if so, whether they are going to be made public. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. MR. MOORES: The fact is, Mr.

Speaker, yes,virtually every committee's report is back. I do not know if they are made public or not. T certainly will take notice of the question and advise the honourable Member for St. Barbe North. I apologize for not have listened previously. MR. F, ROWE: That is okay. I was not very dynamic anyway. MR. SPEAKEF: The honourable Member for Bonavista North. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, in absence of the Minister of Justice, I would 4500

April 17, M75 Tape 1527 (afternoon) IB-5 like to direct a question to the honourable the Premier. Could the Pre.mier inform this House if either the Department of Justice or if government have taken any action or is investigating the rash of vandalism which we have in the City of St. John's at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. MR. C-POSlHE: I am the acting Minister of Justice. Is it &11 right for me to answer? AN HONOllRABLF. ME:t-'BF.R: Yes, boy. ~. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker. T-fR.

SPF.AKER: These matters are always under intensive investigation, The honourable Member for Bonavist~· South. MR. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is there any special investigation going on at the present time? MR. CROSBIE: Every investigation that our police conduct is a special investigation, Mr. Speaker, because they devote the best efforts to it. '-IR. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister anticipating setting up some kind of a puhlic enquiry into this rash of vandalism? MR. CROS!l IE: No, Mr. Speaker, we are not contemplating setting up any Public enquiry.

For what reason would we set up a public enquiry into vandalism? I mean, vandalism is vandalism. It must be dealt with. The forces of law and order have to try to overcome it. AN HONOURABLE ME~ER: Inaudible. '-IR. CROSBIE: I mean, imagine now a royal commission on vandalism. Who clo we have on the commission, Mr. Speaker? We would have to find ~ome r,ood vandals, some people with long experience in vandalism wpo could telJ us whether vandalism today is different from vandalism twenty years ago or forty years ago or ten years ago. It is an intriguing thought. Yes, we will certainly take it under advisement.

It might be a good place to put some of our vandals. MR. SPEAKEF: The honourable Member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation. ><ayhe the Premier has received representation. In light of the facl: that a Mr. Nat, the chief of ferry services for Canada is in town, I want to know if 4501

April 17, 1975 Tape no. 1528 Page 1 - mw ·t:he Town of Happy Valley, a committee, has made representation to the Premier and the Department of Transport seeking aid in seeing if we can get a ferry service running out of Lewisporte - I am sure Your Honour is very interested in that subject - a regular ferry service south of Lewisporte into Goose Bay in soliciting help of the provincial government. I am wondering if any negotiations took place while Mr. Nat was in town in the last couple of days in this regard and if we can look forward to having a ferry service this coming summer? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. ROUSSFAU: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not met with them and the peculiar thing is, and I hope this is taken - I have never received any request, any official request to support - MR. WOODWARD: The Premier did. MR. ROUSSFAU: - the ferry service. No, but it is rather peculiar as Minister of Transportation and ~s· the minister from Labrador, I never have. I received a copy of a letter,too. But I can assure the honourable member this,that every time that : we have had meetings with CN from Mr.

Blair,who is the vice-president of the Eastern region and anybody else with CN, we constantly pressed the fact of a ferry service to the Goose Bay-Happy Valley area continuously. There is no question about the support of the provincial government for that. We have also requested that the same sort of convenience be extended this year as was extended last year with the use of, when the loads get too big, the William Carson and so on. It has been suggested that that will be available again.

I can assure the honourable member that anything that this government can do to eiihance or make the service better will be done. It has been done,and it has been done on every occasion that the department, and myself particularly 7 meet with CN, we bring this to their attention. And they have suggested that they are attempting to improve the service and that the same sort of convenience,when the loads get to the point they are, and they ,sent to the larger boats last year, actually the same sort ot thin ); will happen this year, but we will continue to press for it. And I can 4502

April 17, 1975 Tape no. 1528 Page z - 111W assure the honourable member that the provincial government supports great improvements in that ferry service, you know, I mean the problems that are encountered up there with the winter supplies having to be stored and so on. And I can assure the honourable member that he has no worry about the support of the provincial government. MR. WOODWARD: But there - MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! MR. WOODWARD: But there has not been any indication - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WOODWARD: • from the federal government. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROUSSEAU: No. MR.

SPEAKER: The thirty minutes for the question period have expired. There was to be one question for the late ahow this afternoon,· • which was to be debated by the Hon. Member for Bell Island and the Hon. Premier. I understand that perhaps the Hon. Member for Bell Island will not be in hie seat today. So, therefore, there really is not a question for the late show. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair, COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! 1101-01, Mines and Energy. MR . CROSBIE: Unless the - MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR.

CROSBIE: I have the impression that this may not be carried immediate~y, Mr. Chairman, and I was just concluding some remarks that I was making the other night. I pretty well said what I wanted to say at that stage. However, if we hear any fallacious points or any points that are not correct and in accordance with the facts, of course, we will have to respond again to honourable gentlemen opposite in connection with this question of oil and gas and energy prices. I was referring the other night, Mr. Chairman, and in closing I just want to refer again to this

article that was in The Daily News several days ago by 4503

April 17, 1975 Tape no. 1528 Page 3 - mw Wayfarer, entitled The Oil Question. As I said the other night, and I repeat again this afternoon, that

article sU11DDarizes the situation in Canada with respect to the price of oil and gas and the reasons why the present goverranent took the position that it took at Ottawa last week on the conference. That position was one, not on which we advocate the raising of gas and oil prices but on which we recognize the fact that they are going to have to be increasedljust as the federal government has done,and accepting that fact rather than seeming to be or even appear to be political opportunists who are going to rail against something that they know full well is going to happen and which should happen. And I was referring the other evening to a couple of key sentences in Wayfarer's

article where he said, 1 'the key to the question of the price of oil in Canada is the statement by Energy Minister Macdonald that the era of cheap energy has ended.' That is certainly so, Mr. Chairman. The last two years have certainly shown the world that the days of cheap energy, whether it is oil and gas or whether it is hydro power or whether it is power from some other source, is gone. Even today in hydro power, hydro power is no longer that cheap, because the interest rates are so high and because the cost of constructing the necessary works has gone so high.

Nuclear power is no longer a cheap source of energy, because the cost of constructing nuclear plants has escalated so greatly and the t:!Jne of construction for constructing them has escalated. There is no longer cheap energy. There are some energy sources that are cheaper than other energy sources, relatively cheaper, cheaper in that sense. But energy costs in five years time are going to be far higher than they are today, whether they are hydro or nuclear or from oil or from whatever source. So the era of cheap energy has ended and this whole concept is a recognition of that.

He went on in the next paragraph to say, "the Newfoundland pesition involves a number of :!Jnportant considerations that are concerned with the economic future of this Province." Does this Province 4504

April 17, 1975 Tape no, 1528 Page 4 - mw want an economic future or does it not? It cannot have it both ways. We cannot hope to develop our Province and get a proper price for our own resources if we are not prepared to do the things that are necessary now to achieve that.

If we are going to take the short-sighted and the short-term and the political view of everything then we are not fit to govern the Province, And the honourable gentlemen who sit opposite are not fit to govern• the Province because that is the position and attitude they take, They take the short-term political -they know it is not popular for anyone to say that they recognize the fact that oil and gas prices trave to go up in Canada. They know that that is not politically popular. Mr. Collins, in his colunms in The Evening Telegram, says that it is not politically popular.

Well>it is not politically popular for anyone to say that they recognize that fact, because in the cheap way politics is conducted the opposing party that is not in power will make the welkin ring saying that you are encouraging and not trying to prevent the price of oil and gas or whatever it is from going up,knowing full well that this government has no power to control the matter whatsoever. But they make these statements anyway because they are only concerned with the short-term political gain,what they think is a polticial gain.

But the government is concerned with the long-term and the mid-term future of the Province of Newfoundland. And if we are to have any future, then there must be a sensible energy policy in Canada. And the resources that are owned by the provinces must give them an adequate return.

If we had a large sale or the possibility of selling a large amount of hydro power from Labrador some time in the next five or ten years from the Lower Churchill or some other source and could sell it for twenty mils or thirty mils a kilowatt hour,and the federal government said to that, to us, not likely, you are only going to be allowed to sell it for ten mils or fifteen mils, not for the thirty that Hydro Quebec or the Province of Ontario or Consolidated Edison or whoever it is is going to offer it to you, we will only permit you to sell that for half it, what would the people of this Province think with one of their great resources and one of their few resources that we are able 4505

April 17, 1975 Tape no. 1528 Page 5 - mw to sell and get the economic rent for at that time and be told by the federal government, no, you cannot have it, we are not going to permit it? Well what is sauce for the geose is sauce for the gander. That is the position that Alberta and Saskatchewan are in now.

And while we feel that the federal government should take the necessary steps to see that prices do not increase rapidly, that they are staged over the next two or three years or four years,and that they continue to subsidize oil and gas in Eastern Canada so that it is the same price as in Western Canada while we believe that that is the course they sl1ould tak, w'e can hardly be hypocrites') we can hardly be liars and hypocrites and go to Ottawa,and insincere, and go to Ottawa and say publicly, oppose publicly, something that we know is going to happen ; and it must happen and that economics dictates must happen, say privately in Ottawa, well) we know, you know, Mr, Trudeau and the rest of you that the price has got to go up, but it is to our political gain and advantage to pretend that we are opposing it.

So, therefore, before the 4506

April 17, 1975. Tape 1529 RH - 1 T.V. cameras, we going to shout it down and oppose it and put on a fuss about it. Well, we did not choose that course. We do not want to lose whatever respect or good will the other Provinces of Canada have got for us and they have got a great deal for this Province. We do not want to lose their respect and it is not necessary. We can be honest and if it is properly explained the people of Newfoundland I think 1will accept it.Knd that is the course that we have evolved. We are concerned with the economic future of the Province. ,. Now, what is our position?

Wayfarer says,and he is right, it accepts the inevitability of a gradual increase in oil prices, not only because it is going to come about anyway but also for a number of other considerations. These include the need to take a consistent stand on the ownership of offshore resources, recognition of the fact that other Provinces must put up the money we want to underwrite the survival of the fishery,and the financial assistance that will have to come from Ottawa and could also come from Alberta to proceed with the Gull Island hydro development. 11 In this last, we are playing for big stakes,and so on.

These are some of the reasons why this is our policy. We have our own resources here. We have oil and gas off our own shore. We have gas, we know, up off Labrador, Eastcan's gas, which we know is there and will never be developed unless the price of oil and gas goes up. It could never he developed at today's prices, the gas resources off the Coast of Labrador, because of the tremendous amount of capital expenditure that will have to be made to overcome all the problems in getting gas to shore in one of the most difficult areas of the world because of ice and icebergs Rnd the rest of it.

We want that gas utilized,returning revenue for the Province>and the oil that will be found offshore. If the oil companies of the world are told that the price of oil and gas in Canada will never rise above $6.50 there will not be one of them out there trying to discover oil or gas. These are some of the reasons. The Gull Island project- we got accepted at this conference the concept that there should be a regional grid and a study is going to be carried out by Quebec and ourselves and the Federal Government 1and P.E.I. and Nova Scotia 4507

April 17, 1975. Tape 1529 RH - 2 would need the power to try to develop this concept. So, we could sell our power to Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island and the other Provinces that need it and to the U.S. if there is a surplus. That concept has been accepted by them 1and that was a great step forward. So, I frankly cannot see why it should be felt, perhaps it is not explained properly,why anyone should feel that we are on a sticky wicket with our oil and gas or energy policy. I think we are on a terrific wicket. We do not want the short-term political gain.

We want the long-term gain for this Province and the Opposition is making a bad mistake. How inconsistent can they be! Their own party in Ottawa takes the same position as the Provincial Government does here in Newfoundland. The Federal Liberal Party takes the same position. They have come to the same conclusion we have,or we are agreeing with their conclusion and all the facts that they have presented and they have gotten them all on the energy situation in Canada, that same Liberal Government.

The Liberal Government of P.E.I. takes the same position that we took, accepts the inevitability, not that they like it. In P.E.I. they are dependent wholly on thermal power, oil fired thermal power,as they are in Nova Scotia. They accepted it. The Premier of P.E.I. did not get on with a lot of nonsense that there should not be any increase and put on a big act before the T.V. cameras. He accepted the fact that it had to come. So did Premier -Hatfield of New Brunswick and he suggested he supported Saskatchewan's concept that there should be an energy research fund and whatnot,but he accepted the fact.

The Premier of Quebec, Mr. Bourassa, accepted the fact that the oil and gas increase in price had to come but it should be graduated and so on. That is the Liberal Premier of Quebec, the Liberal Prenier of Prince Edward Island, the Liberal Government at Ottawa. B.C. accepted the fact. Of course, Saskatchewan and Alberta want it because they are now selling their resources which are irreplaceable for half their world value and they want to get a bit more for it. It is not like our hydro energy,will go on forever,but their oil energy will not.

So, these are among some of the reasons why this government accepted 4508

April 17, 1975. Tape 1529 RH - 3 the fact that an increase has to come about. The consumer must be pro­ tected but there are other long-range interests that must be served. As Mr. Wayfarer pointed out, Albert Perlin pointed out in the final para~raph of his column, he said, the point is that whatever attitude Newfoundland might have taken on prices at last week's conference would have made no II I difference. Right, 100 per cent right!

Whether we have made the welkin ring opposing it and bawling and screeching and crying, the Premier could have had tears trickling down, I suppose, his face as he opposed this hideous concept, this barbaric and horrendous suggestion that there should be an increase. He could have beaten on the table and talked about the poor consumer and the poor condition of the Province and so on,and put on a tremendous act. He could have,if that had been the route he had chosen. It would have made not one twits bit of difference, not an iota of difference. It would not have mattered at all.

It is only the Government of Canada that can stop an oil and gas price increase and no other government.And only they, Alberta and Saskatchewan, can decide what the increase is going to be. The rest of us have not got any authority in it whatsoever. That conference called last last was called for purposes of cosmetics. The Federal Government wanted cosmetics,hoping that all of the Provinces would agree,as they did a year ago, so that the Federal Government would not have to bear the brunt of the responsibility alone.

They did not all agree this year because Ontario is having a provincial election shortly,and they choose not to agree for political reasons,obviously. The Government of Nova Scotia took their position for whatever reason, principally because eighty-three per cent of their energy in Nova Scotia comes from coal or oil, from oil. They have practically no hydro energy. It will strike them particularly hard. So, the point is that whatever attitude Newfoundland may have taken would have made no difference, But if we did not take the attitude we did take, Mr. Chairman, we would have been hypocrites.

We would have been two faced and we would have justified the cynicism that a lot of people 4509

April 17, 1975. Tape 1529 have about politics,including the writer of a certain

article that criticizes the government on political grounds today for doing it. He says it is a political mistake. Well, if it is a political mistake that is too bad. Politics cannot be everything and we have to take decisions that are in the right interest of the Province from time to time. " Mr. Perlin goes on to say, the rights of the producing Province is to a fair market price for their diminishing oil supplies are irresistible and these rights include an allowance that will provide additional funds for exploration for new reserves.

The price is either going to rise by agreement or it will be adjusted if necessary by federal action. The aim is to do this in a way that will impose the least possible impact upon the Canadian economy which must involve an JI increase by stages. Then he goes on to conclude his article. Now, that is the most sensible

article that has been in The Daily News ,certainly within recent memory of The Daily News in the last six months or twelve months. It is completely at variance, of course, with the stories they carried about the energy conference and with editorials not written by Mr. Perlin himself. But it is the most sensible, if not the only sensible piece of writing in The Daily News in a long, long time and it hits it right on the head. So, then Mr.

Chairman, I suggest to the Opposition we pass on beyond the ministers salary vote now, get into the details of the estimates and ask about what the money is going to be spent on under various headings, no more of this propaganda, long speeches and a waste of time. Let us make some use of the hours that are left on the estimates, a proper use to ask what the money is going to be spent on. What is this going to be spent on? What is the programme here? What is the government planning to do?

That is the purpose of the discussion on the estimates, not for long-winded speeches that can be made on the Budr,et Speech or the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne. So, I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that honourable gentlemen opposite, that we now pass on and discuss the real bones of the minister's estimates 4510

AprH 17, 1975. Tape 1529 RR - 5 which cover mining and minerals and oil and gas and hydro development and rur~l electricity and all the other important questions that he is doing such a fantastic job on. I think he is the youngest, no, he is the seconcl youngest minister in the gove_rnment and highly regarded all across Canada in this area. In the last two and a half years he has taken complete control of what is happening ~n these areas in this Provinc e . It is of tremendous importance to us . And be has the respect of the oil companies and the other governments.

So, let us get on and see what he is planning to do this year with his estilnates and get some real information for the public of Newfoundland instead of this silly,trifling propaganda because if honourable gentleinen opposite want to get up and try to make propaganda points about oil and gas increases, we ar e going to get up and answer them. Ile are not going to let them go unanswered as they do on open line shows. ITonourahle gentl.Jllen are at their best blathering and hlobbinc and blawing on open line shows where there is no one there to reply to the~. !',1~ HONOURABLE MJ::t,ffiER: Inaudible. 4511

April 17, 1975 Tape 1530 (Afternoon) PK - 1 MR. CROSBIE: Well I did not say that,you did. But you are quite right. The honourable gentlemen are braying on open line shows all over the Province. Every time you turn on your radio you hear another one of those donkeys braying on the open line show and they have no one there to contradict them,and we do not have the time, Mr. Chairman, because we are busy in our departments, and busy trying to help the Province and serve the Province.

We have not got the time to go carousing around and careening around the Province, scrap;i.ng the barnacles off every microphone that gets stuck out at you on an open line programme,giving slantings of the facts and insinuating this and snibbling about that, and snitching about something else as they have over these past weeks and weeks, and months and months. I say to honourable gentlemen now1 let us get on now with the minister's estimates.

If we hear another squeak from you on oil and gas prices, and the Energy Conference, we are going to answer you and it is going to be humiliating and embarrassing for you, because you know it is only a lot of twaddle you are putting forward for political reasons, and no one outside is listening to what is happening in this Chamber anyway. So let us get on with the main business of the estimates. Concede the fact that you have made a bad mistake,or even without conceding it just let us get on with it.

But if we hear another blither out of you about this subject we are going to answer you, and, you know, we have the answers, and we have the reasoning, and we have the people, and we have the minister and he can talk all day. We have others who can talk all day. So instead of that, let us get on with the business of the House. AN HON. MEMBER: Carried. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: I am afraid, Mr. Chairman, despite the conciliatory tone of appeasement set by the Hon.

Minister of Fisheries that I feel obligated to answer some of the remarks that were made here last Tuesday 4512

April 17, 1975 Tape 1530 (Afternoon) PK - 2 afternoon. I think we owe our responsibility to the people of Newfoundland to reveal the position of the Opposition on this particular issue as the shoddy state of petty 1partisan politics that it is, Mr. Chairman. And I do not think we could find better proof of that than the fact that we have had the Leader of the Opposition, we have had the honourable Member for Bell Island bawling and screaming and hollering and yowling over every media in the Province for days on end.While, Mr.

Chairman, I might add , the Premier and the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and myself were at the Energy Conference, they demanded, they insisted upon a immediate debate upon the question of oil and gas price increases. They demanded an explanation as to why this government took the position it did at the National Energy Cortference, the First Ministers' Conference. Now, Mr. Chairman, if you want proof as to whether or not this was the shoddy 1partisan politics that I just mentioned you only have to look and ask 7where is the Leader of the Opposition today?

Where was he on Tuesday, when we gave him his opportunity to come before this honourable House and explain his position - MR. F. ROWE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. BARRY: and to get our explanation of our position. MR. F. ROWE: The minister is asking where the Leader of the Opposition is and I heard a bark from the other side suggesting Flordia. The Leader of the Opposition, Sir, had a prior commitment. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, this is not a point of order. MR. F. ROWE: It is a point of order.

And I want to make it quite clear it is the government that calls the business in this House, and the Leader had a prior commitment. And at this present time all the minister has to do is look out there and see the reason why he is not back in his seat, he is fog bound - in a plane that is. !1R. BARRY: That is not a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Sit down! Sit tlo'!<rn! MR. J<'.B.ROWE: MR. BARRY: comings and goings - MR. F.B.ROWE: It is so a point of order. The honourable member is trying to debate the Talking about politics, what are you doing now? Listen to your House Leader, boy. 4513

April 17, 1975 Tape 1530 (Afternoon) MR. BARRY: The cavorting and the flitting of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition does not interest this honourable House, Mr. Chairman. But I think we can conclude - MR. E. ROWE: Thank you for your ruling, Mr. Chairman. PK - 3 MR. BARRY: that he does not give a very, very great importance to this issue. If knowing that it came on on Tuesday, he was not present on Tuesday; knowing that it was coming on again today~he has not seen fit to arrange his affairs to be available in the House.

The honourable Member for Bell Island he also I suppose was caught out by ~rgent provincial business, was he? Another honourable member who was very concerned about debating this matter, debating this issue. Mr. Chairman, the position taken by the members of the Opposition on this issue is a position that leads me to conclude that the Opposition would have us become the beggars of Confederation. They want to see this Province, Mr. Chairman, continuously going to Ottawa bowing and scraping, cap in hand, pleading for a few handouts. They would have us, Mr.

Chairman, put ourselves out as the beggars in Confederation forever. They would not, Mr. Chairman, except that in this particular area especially,in the area of energy resources, and I would submit, Mr. Chairman, in the resource field generally,this Province has the potential and the capability to become a very significant contributor to the welfare, not just in our Province, but to the country as a whole. But no, Mr.

Chairman, they reject any attempt at the development of policies that would see this Province put in the position where it could become a large scale contributors to the welfare of the national good. Rather, Mr. Chairman, they would have this government go to a First Ministers' Conference, televised right across the Nation, and they would have us, purely for a short-term political gains in this Province, they would have us take an untenable position namely, Mr.

Chairman, that we live for today with no thought for tomorrow, that we concern ourselves only with our short-term problems, and they are problems that we all admit that the people in this Province, and the people in other provinces,but perhaps more so here - we have serious problems with respect to the cost of living and inflation, and this government are very much aware of that fact. But, Mr. Chairman, unless this government takes the position 4514

April 17, 1975 Tape 1530 (Afternoon) PK - 4 that policies must be developed to ensure that in the long-ter)ll we are in a position to improve our position in Confederation, • that Canada as a whole is in a position to i!nprove its position on the world scene,then, Mr. Chairman, they would have us committed to the status of continuous beggars, b,eggars moving once a year to the annual conference) televised across the nation, and we collie in meekly with our cap in our hand, and o·ur hand out for a little bit of charity from our Canadian neighbours, when we nave in this Province, Mr.

Chairman, forgetting about the potential for oil and gas which is very great, forgetting about that, we have with respect to the hydro potential of Labrador,the potential and the capability of making such a contribution to our country at a time when it needs it, we have the ability to remove ourselves from d~pendency on the .t\rabs in the Middle East or the Venezuelans, we have the ability to avoid being held by the throat by the Arabs and the Venezuelans and the other producers of crude oil in five or six years down the road 1 we have that ability, Mr.

Chairman, provided that we see the development of wise national polic~es that will ensure the development of our natural resources. We had - it just boggles the mind, you know, the reasoning that is used there - we had honourable members opposite pushing for days on end the idea that we had made a deal with Alberta. That we had gone 4515

April 17, 1975 Tape No. 1531 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: up there and made some sort of deal with Alberta. They did not explain what that deal was. I would be very interested in seeing what we could have gotten in the deal". They did not explain whether or not they thought that Prince Edward Island, a Province with very little in the way of energy potential that I know of, they did not explain whether or not Prince Edward Island had also made a deal with the federal government or with Alberta. They did not explain whether the federal government itself had made a deal with Alberta.

They did not mention the fact that we were one of,I think ultimately it was eight out of ten provinces who concluded that an increase in oil and gas prices was inevitable. No, no they did not refer to that. They played the most shameful, cheapest kind of small, partisan, shoddy politics with this issue, Mr. Chairman, an issue that is fundamental to the welfare of our Province and our nation and the honourable members opposite can check their beaux f.estes all day. MR. ROWE: I know who you are speaking directly to. MR. BARRY: But I think that I am - MR. ROWE: You are a lawyer. MR.

BARRY: on parliamentary grounds here, on fair parliamentary grounds. MR. ROWE: Shoddy instead of cheat. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to - MR. ROWE: Cheap instead of cheat. MR. BARRY: I would like to for a moment just, if I can find it here now, just bring to your attention a statement made by the Prime Minister of Canada, the right honourable Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who, I believe belongs to the same party as honourable members opposite. He did at one time. I am not sure, he may have disowned them by now Mr. Chairman.

But if I could read briefly from the statement that the Prime Minister of this country gave to the First Ministers' Conference, just a couple of paragraphs, ~r. Chairman. You know if the honourable members are not prepared to take my words for what we are sayin~ here today - MR. MURPHY: Pierre. Pierre. 4516

April 17, 1975 Tape No. 1531 NM - 2 }'R. BARRY: - maybe they will take Pierre's. MR, ROWE: We are going to go down and resign when he is finished. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, they say we must also take into account that our own oil supply situation is much less favourable than we thought it was a year ago.

In other words, there was much more work done with respect to the background developments in the oil and gas field over the last few years which I can elaborate on if honourable members would like but I will just read this paragraph; "Those who are in the best position to know now tell us our production,which has already begun to decline,will go on declinin g for five or ten years at least while our needs grow larger all the time." And when they talk about it being only for five or ten years they are assuming that in five or ten years there will be East Coast oil and gas developed, for example. ,, He says, we will have to reduce our exports to the United States and increase our dependence on imports from overseas.

We have now found out,as everyone knows, that the extraction of oil from our huge reserves of oil in the oil sands will be much more difficult and more costly than we had all expected a year a ~o. Production from the big Syncrude project will cost much more than the price that we now pay for crude oil in Canada. He do not know yet just when or by whom the next oil sands project 11 will be started, And again this five or ten years decline in production assumes a certain number of tar sands projects coming on. I think it is one every two years.

Right now they do not know when the next one will come on stream. 11 Meanwhile we have not had bip; discoveries of oil in the Arctic or offshore and the estimates of cost of exploration and development have risen rapidly. We are not as lucky as we thought we were last year, 11 referring to last year at the National Energy Conference. (I We cannot expect those who search for oil, whether they be Canadians or others,to look for it and develop it in Canada;• this is the Prime Minister ,, saying this now, if our prices are far below those in other countries. We 4517

April 17, 1975 Tape No. 1531 NM - 3 cannot go on year after year being extravagant in our use of oil, far beyond what almost every other country in the world consumes, mainly because it is being sold cheaply in Canada, a lot cheaper than elsewhere and a lot cheaper than our future supplies will cost. 11 We cannot expect Alberta and Saskatchewan to go on year after year selling their oil to Canadians at a price which is far below what they could get by exporting it.'' Just a couple of more sentences, Mr. Chairman, the I think conclusion that the Prime Minister was leadin g up to, and this should be noted.

The Prime Minister said, "so my colleagues in the government an<l I have come reluctantly to believe that the price of oil in Canada •I must go up, up towards the world price, not down, Mr. Chairman, not staying where it is. The Prime Minister says that they believe that the price of oil in Canada must go up, up towards the world price. Now, I would like to ask the honourable members opposite to explain their position. Are they removing themselves from the position taken by the Prime Minister of Canada, their Liberal leader on the national scene? Are they disowning him? MR. ROWE: Do not be so foolish. MR.

BARRY: Are they saying that he is wrong, that he is stupid, that he has made a deal with Alberta, that he is out to get the consumer. They are saying all these things about this government, Mr. Chairman, because we happen to have come to the same conclusion, reluctantly,as has the Prime Minister of Canada. Why then are they not out savagely attacking the Prime Minister of Canada. Why is it, Mr. Chairman? Could that be further evidence that they are interested only in short-term, shoddy, petty politics1 Could that be? Mr. Chairman, I also have to refer to the comment by Mr, Collins in MR.

THOMS: That was a good one. What is not? MR. BARRY: - today's Telegram, because - MR. THOMS: Read it all to us. Read it all to us. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, it strikes me as inconsistent when the stance 4518

April 17, 1975 Tape No. 1531 NM - 4 normally taken by this gentleman-I enjoy reading his columns. I suspect that often he acts the devil's advocate, that he does not necessarily believe all that he says but he puts out a position. He puts it out very frankly, very bluntly. But, Mr. Chairman, one consistency that I thought I had detected in this reporter, in this commentator, was a consistent belief that this Province could make a fantastic contribution to this country through the development of our natural resources.

And I would be very interested in seeing the support that he has given to this government in the position that we have taken with respect to the offshore jurisdictional dispute~for example,with Ottawa and our insistence that the benefits of the provincial resources should go to the provincial governments. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I find that - well I am somewhat disappointed, I find it somewhat depressing, and I am somewhat mystified by the position that the commentator is taking in today's

article when he basically concentrates on the fact that this government is not making a wise short-term political move. He does not refer to 1and I do not know if he has overlooked it or not, Mr.

Chairman, but he 00P~ not refer to the fact that if this Province ever expects to be able to take its rightful place in Confederation, ever expects to became a contributor instead of a taker on the whole national scene, that this wjll not be done by our going to national conferences to talk to the Prime Minister and the other premiers of Canada and take positions that are directed solely to the short-term political ins and outs of politics in Newfoundland as they may be in this particular time; that we cannot take a position before these premiers, before the Prime Minister, that is going to, merely for the sake of getting a few votes on a short-term,and expect that such action will lead to the development of national polities that will permit us to take our rip,htful place in confederation, that will permit us to see the development of our resources in a way that will see vast benefits, not just to our own citizens but to all of Canada,because, Mr.

Chairman, honourable members cannot deny that we 4519

April 17, 1975. Tape 1532 RH - 1 have the energy resources, the known energy resources in Labrador. They are undeveloped. We have rivers running to the sea that are undeveloped. Now, Mr. Chairman, we have a choice.

We can continue to make representation to Ottawa, to the other Provinces, taking positions that we feel will be popular in the short-term, will get us a few votes in the short term but that are obviously political, that lack credibilitv, or we can go to conferences with the Prime Minister and the other Premiers of Canada and we can propose policies, national policies, that will see the development of our resources here in this Province, that will gain acceptance by the Prime Minister of Canada and his government and by the other Premiers. We can, Mr. Chairman, choose.

We can go as beggars or we can go as contibutors. We can go and beg a few crumbs at the table of Confederation or, ~fr. Chairman, we can go and reveal what we have to add to the total Canadian picture. We can explain the resources that we have available to benefit all Canadians. We can push for national policies that will see these resources developed or we can play politics. Now, Mr. Chairman, this government choose to go for the development of national policies that will see all our resources developed and Mr. Chairman, we have been successful because anybody, Mr.

Chairman, who noticed developments - AN HONOURAl!LE MEMBER: You have not produced the kilowatt hour yet. MR. BARRY: - anybody who noticed developments at the National Energy Conference last year and developments since then would remember that our position to the National Energy Conference last January was that there should be the development of a national hydro electric grid. Now, this got some polite nods and the other Provinces and the Federal Government appeared to be fairly receptive. We went back to this Conference this year, Mr.

Chairman, and we find that many of the Provinces are not even waiting for us now to again raise this issue. We have Mr. Regan of Nova Scotia with a significant part of his brief on energy devoted to the need to see the development of our hydro electric potential of Labrador, to contribute to the development of energy resources in the 4520

April 17, 1975. Tape 1532 RH - 2 Atlantic region, to permit Provinces such as Nova Scotia, such as Prince Edward Island,which have no local energy reserves, to use, participate in the energy reserves of this Province until they are needed in this rrovince rather than have them wasted, have the water run to the sea. We had, Mr. Chairman, grow out of this recent First Ministers' Conference very strong support for the position that this Province first put forward last year for the development of a national energy grid. Mr. Chairman, that is an idea whose time has come. We will see, Mr.

Chairman, from the work that this Province has done both in last year's Energy Conference and this year's Conference, we will see the development of a national energy grid that will permit Newfoundland and Labrador to make a contribution to the energy picture of Canada that will enable us in Newfoundland and Labrador to develop resources and get revenue from resources and have electricity available for industrial development within the Province, that would otherwise, Mr. Chairman, take years and years and years, much longer to develop.

We have growing support right across Canada for our proposal of a national hydro electric grid. I mention this, l!r. Chairman, merely as an example. This is just one example of how if this Province or any other Province is prepared to put work into the presentation of a proposal to the First Ministers or to the Federal Government 1either together or separately, that they will find a very receptive audience today because rir,ht across this nation people are aware of the fact that we are now at the turnin g point.

We have a choice here in Canada between deciding that we will take the easy road, continue on our energy binge, have it easy for one or two years and then, Mr.

Chairman, pay the price,because if anybody on the other side of the House thinks that the people of this Province are prepared to permit the Arabs of the Middle East or the Venezuelans to have us by the throat in five to six years, to set their own price for oil and gas, to determine how much oil or gas we will have available to this Province, how much energy we will have available, then I say that honourable menbers opposite are in for a rude awakening, Mr. Chairman. 4521

April 18, 1975. Tape 1532 Rl:I - 3 This goverrunent believes that the people of our Province expect members of this honourable House,and expect us as members of government, to go to national energy conferences, to go to meetings with the Prime Minister of Canada and the other Premiers and to set forth, not petty, political statements, but to set forth wise policies which can be implemented to benefit this Province and all of Canada. Mr.

Chairman, this we have done and I challenged on Tuesday, I challenged honourable members opposite to set out their policy that will see the development of our Province's energy resources, that will see the development of our cotmtry' s energy resources, to avoid what the Prime Minister has pointed out as the shortage of energy that we will experience over the next five to ten years and perhaps longer, definitely longer if the policies of the honourable members opposite were adopted. Mr. Chairman, I do not know! Sometimes you wonder what this political exercise is all about.

When you see, I think, intelligent men, intelligent members opposite still proceeding on the assumption that Newfoundlanders are too green to burn, still expecting, I suppose in their savage thirst for power, Mr. Chairman, in their hours of desperation they will try anything, still proceeding on the assumption that they can fool the people of the Province by just looking at one side of this point, just one side of this issue. Well, Mr. Chairman, I wish the Premier would go down to the Lieutenant-Governor MR. THOMS: Pull the bluff. That is true. He never listens to you. He never listens to you. MR.

BARRY: on this question of whether the people of the Province want honesty from their goverrunent or whether they want just one side of the coin put out to them for a short term political advantage. Mr. Chairman, I would go to the electorate on that issue any day and I submit, Mr. Chairman, that we would end up with a shut-out. MR. SIMMONS: It would be a shut-out all right. MR. BARRY: It will be a little dull, Mr. Chairman, in the House after that happens. So, I hope honourable members wise up and see the light, that we can still have one or two voices just to spark us once in 4522

April 18, 1975. Tape 1532 RH - 4 a while, keep us moving. ~- SIMMONS: What is your point? You want us to agree with you, do you? MR. BARRY: Yes, I would say if the honourable member was out to be honest. ""ffi. SU-1!·10NS: r.od help us! God help us! MR. BARRY: I would say, I know he agrees with me privately. AN HONOURABLE MF.MEER: Cost the taxpayer MR . SIMMONS: No, you do not. MR. BARRY: But I would like to be able to state it publicly. Mr. Chairman, that is a good point the honourable member has said.

I think we have a situation in this Province and probably right across the country where the most vocal discussions with respect to policy, well,first of all,are from politicians,from all the members of this House, but they are usually in Opposition to government policy. I would like to hear, Hr.

Chairman, from the people of this Province as to whether or not they relieve that this position out forth by the Opposition, this position that we need not concern ourselves with where our future energy supplies come fro!:!, I would like to know from the people of this Province, I would like t o knov from our media commentators and so on whether this is actually the way the people are thinking. Maybe I am out of touch. Maybe I lost out. Am I out of touch on this? AN HONOURABLE MEl"!BER: You are. You are. HR.

BARRY: That people do not really care, that people forget about tomorrow, let us look after today, forget about where we are going to be able to meet the tas k that the Prime Minister describes here of insuring that our country is not held by the throat by foreign powers in a few years. 4523

April 17, 1975 Tape no. 1533 Page I - mw MR. SIMMONS: I agree with all of that but the minister is confused on one point. MR. BARRY: Is that quite relevant? MR. SIMMONS: MR. BARRY: The minister is contused on the point. You are not concerned about that? MR. SIMMONS: The minis~e~ is confused on the point, if he will permit me. MR. BARRY: MR. SIMMONS: MR. BARRY: MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman - A minute ago he said that we had no policy. - honourable members opposite Now he attacks the policy. How can you attack what we do not have? MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman. MR. SIMMONS : MR.

BARRY: I am sorry, I am sorry. no intelligent policy, How can you attack what we do not have? No intelligent policy. MR. SIMMONS: MR. BARRY: Intelligent,meaning that it does not agree with you. You have a policy. MR. SIMMONS: I submit - MR. BARRY: I submit it is not an intelligent policy. MR. SIMMONS: I submit it is not your policy. but it is a policy. MR. BARRY: The honourable members opposite will be able to explain how it is intelligent. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. please! Order. please! I have to give honourable gentlemen a lesson in parliamentary graDDDar. MR. SIMMONS: Give us the flick again. MR.

CHAIRMAN: You and your and I I, I suppose.is all right. Honourable members have to be referred to as the constituency they represent and then when only other honourable members have the floor. That is a lesson in parliamentary graDDDar. MR. SIMMONS: My humble apologies, Mr. Chairman. I was trying to help the confused minister. 4524

April 17, 1975 Tape no. 1533 Page 2 - mw MR. BARRY: I believe I was at fault also, Mr. Chairman. Now if I could just - I do not know how long the honourable members would like to go on this point. AN HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: I have a number of other major policy areas relating to my department which I am prepared to go into at any time that honourable members are ready to move from this issue. But if they prefer to stay on this issue, then that is fine with me as well because I have a fair amount of information yet to give on this that really would just scratch the surface on this particular point.

I would like just to refer to the points made by the Hon. Member for Labrador North and the Hon. Member for Bell Island on Tuesday, and I really do not have very much in the way of questions that were asked. I believe the Hon. Member for Labrador North started off by alleging that the Province had made a deal with Alberta, that this government had made a deal with Alberta, and he pointed to the statement of Mr. Lougheed that he was prepared, I believe, to assist in the development of our energy resources, whether it be hydro or offshore oil and gas, and he said that that indicated a deal to him.

Well, he is entitled to his opinion I guess. The honourable member is entitled to his opinion, but I ask, what does he figure that Prince Edward Island got out of iti What does he figure Quebec got out of it? What does he figure that the federal government got out of it? What does he figure that New Brunswick got out of it and the other provinces that agreed with the Prime Minister of Canada, reluctantly agreed, that some increase in oil and gas prices was necessary in order to ensure that we have some security of supply five or six years down the road? MR.

WOODWARD: I 8111 sure the minister is aware what Quebec is getting out of the federal government. I do not think he is that naive, MR. BARRY: MR. SIMMONS: No, maybe the honourable member can point to that. Would the minister permit a question on the point? Just a quick one without attempting to get off stride, Mr. Chairman. I 4525

April 17, 1975 Tape no. 1533 Page 3 - mw was wondering if he would just refer a little more,or elaborate a little on the Alberta situation1 Can the minister indicate whether some firm discussions were held with Alberta in terms of the nature of their possible involvement in the Lower Churchill and if the funding would be presumably in the form of a loan and if interest rates and, you know, conditions circumscribing the possible involvement were spelled out or were touched on even in an informal way? MR. BARRY: Mr.

Chairman, no, I cannot give honourable members specific details of discussions that may have been held between the Premier and the Premier of Alberta. This would have to be - any statements that are done properly woµld have to be done from both provinces. The Hon. Premier of Alberta has a legislature as well and has certain responsibilities there.

But it is a matter of record, I believe, from both conferences, last year's Energy Conference and this year's, that Premier Lougheed has made it quite clear that while they are determined to derive what they consider to be the fair value of their resources, to derive fair revenue from the development of their depleting reserves, because in another few years they will not have any oil or gas, and they want to be in a position to provide for the citizens of their province when their oil and gas is gone, that while they are determined to get the fair return from the development of their oil and gas, at the same time they recognize that they will build up significant cash reserves over the next few years until their oil and gas is gone.

And they have indicated that they are very anxious to see the development of alternative sources of energy in other parts of the country. Because, Mr.

Chairman, and this is a point, I think, that has been missed, Alberta, if it could, as good citizens of Canada if the people of Alberta could cut off production from their wells I am sure that they would be the happiest people in Canada, because they are looking at another - I forget the exact number of years - six, seven, eight, nine years of oil and gas reserves in their province, and they would much prefer to have these retained for industrial development within their Province,for the development of petro-chemical complexes, to encourage industry to locate in their province rather than have to export these to other parts of the country. 4526

April 17, 1975 Tape no. 1533 Page 4 - mw To keep the oil in the ground today is the same as keeping money in the bank without the danger of inflation eating into it, which can happen with their money in the bank. So Alberta,I am sure,would prefer to restrict as much as possible the necessity of supplying the needs of other parts of Canada from their dwindling reserves of oil and gas.

And for this reason they have made it clear that they are prepared to assist in the development in other parts of Canada of alternative sources of energy, whether it be hydro electricity, which can remove then the need for so much oil and gas~or whether it be the development of other oil and gas reserves in Canada which will sort of lessen the pressure on their own dwindling reserves. member had a question. I am sorry, the honourable MR. WOODWARD: Under the legislation of their province, do they not have the right to restrict the extraction and also the right to increase the taxes? MR. BARRY: That is right. MR.

WOODWARD: This is what Premier Lougheed - so they do not need the federal government. MR. BARRY: That is right. The Province or any province has the right to say, we are not going to produce any oil and gas,and obviously it is to Alberta's credit that they have not done that. You know, they recognize that they are part of this country, and it is not much point in their keeping their oil and gas if doing so means the destruction of the nation.

They do not see themselves as existing - there are a few, a small minority element out there, I believe, who is pushing for an independent Alberta or an independent Western Canada or whatever. But the majority of people recognize that the strength of Alberta lies in a strong Canada. And so they are prepared to make sacrifices and to make a contribution to other parts of Canada. But the honourable member is right, They could limit production. Also they could increase the price unilaterally. But where the federal government's 452'7

April 17, 1975 Tape no. 1533 Page 5 - mw role comes in is when oil and gas crosses provincial lines or crosses national borders in inter-provincial trade. Then the federal government has a role, and they can determine the price there. And if Alberta put it up so high, too high, presumably, the federal government could say,well you cannot export at that price. And Alberta then would have a choice of keeping it in the province or exporting it at the price set by the federal government. But the final point I would like to make on this issue, or the next final point, Mr.

Chairman, is that the federal government has made it quite clear, they made it quite clear before the conference, they made it quite clear during the conference, and they have made it quite clear since the conference, that they do not care whether we agree or Ontario agrees or any province agrees, they are going to set the price of oil and gas, and they are going to increase the price of oil and gas in Canada. So then,what was the sensible thing for us to do? Was it just to say, go up ~here and say, no price increase,or 4528

April 17, 1975 Tape 1534 (afternoon) IR-1 to go up there and attempt,as we - and this is the statement I find so strange hy the honourahle Member for Bell Island. He said what we should have done was gone up there and said to the federal government, listen, if you want to increase oil and gas prices, then you compenate the consumer in Newfoundland and Labrador. Mr. Chairman, that is exactly what this government did. We set out a list of ways in which the federal government coula alleviate the burden put on the consumer hy any oil and gas price increase.

So, all I can assume is the honourable Member for Bell Island is getting ready to cross the floor. I hope that there is a chair being made available for him because he is obviously in total agreement with the position taken hy this government. MR. CHAIR"!AN: The minister has two minutes remaining. MR. BARRY: Two minutes, Mr. Chairman, okay. I have lost the track of my statements there now. I got off on the honourable Member from llell 1sland. What were we saying? Oh yes, the federal government. They are going to increase the price of oil and gas. So, we decided, well, let us have some imput.

Let us make sure that they phase it in over as long a period of time. Mk.. WOODWARD: It is wrong to say they are increasing the prices. Thev are levelling subsidies that are being paid.They are not increasing the prices. MR. BARRY: Oh no'. As far as western gas is concerned, they increased the price. !AR. WOODWARD: Inaudible. MJl. BARRY: They will in terms of export outside of - MR. WOODWARD: They are raising the tax. VR. BARRY: - from Alberta and Saskatchewan. There is no subsidv tberP.

Between Alberta and Saskatchewan they will set a certain price or between Alherta and British Columbia or Alberta and Manitoba they will determine the price out West. Then as that price goes up, they will remove the subsidy on the East Coast and that price will go up. 4529

April 17, 1975 Tape 1534 (afternoon) MR. WOODWARD: That price will go up but they do not increase there on the East Coast. MR. BARRY: No, but they increase on the West Coast - MR. WOODWARD: prices. It is not fair to say that they are increasing their MR. BARRY: They are - IB-2 MR, WOODWARD: It is better to say that they are lifting the subsidy - MR. BARRY: You have to say that they are increasing the price because they are doing it directly on the West Coast and indirectly on the East Coast. MR. WOODWARD: On the East Coast, yes. MR, BARRY: That is about all I have to say on that, Mr.

Chainnan, other than that we must remember that there is a conservation element here as well, you know, and we have a choice, We can continue to he as wasteful as we have been with respect to energy, continue on an energy binge,or we can start to conserve energy. We can start to recognize the true value of oil and gas.

It is generally accepted~ I think,in a free enterprise system or as free an enterprise system as we have, that one of the ways of ensuring that proper recognition of value is observed is by having this reflected in the price of the product, So that if we expect conservation to be carried on, we have to expect realistic prices to be imposed on petroleum products. Again I say, Mr. Chairman, I have much more I could add on this issue but I am prepared to go on after honourable members have their say to other major policy areas of the department at the honourable members' pleasure. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for St, Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, although I am not the official spokesman for mines and energy on this side of the House I do have a few observations that I would like to make. Sir - now if the chattering can stop - I sincerely hope, Sir, that the Leader of the Opposition will he able to get in through the fog in order to put the position of this side of the Rouse clear and straight in everybody's mind. Sir, I have found that a lot of the information that the 4530

April 17, 1975 Tape 1534 (afternoon) IB-3 ~inister of Mines and Energy had given the Committee up until this point to be very interesting infonnation. It is a pity, Sir, that we did not have some of this information before this particular point in time. Now, Sir, I am going to take a peculiar tack here.

I am going to assume - and I am not saying that it is correct,because I firmly believe the government were wrong in this particular instance - but -let us take a hypothetical case and assume that the government's position at this First Minister's Conference was 100 per cent correct. 1 am not saying that they were 100 per cent correct. In fact I think the government's stand was quite wrong end time and history will bear this out. Let us assume, Sir, that the government was 100 per cent correct. All right.

They come back from Ottawa, the Minister of Mines and Energy and the Minister of Fisheries and they lash out at the Opposition for the stand that they have taken Now, they were basing this on the assumption that they were 100 per cent correct which)of course, they were not. Sir, why did we take the stand that we did? Why did we take the stand that we did?

Because we firmly and sincerely believed that the Province and its representatives, namely the government and the Premier,should act in the best interests of the Province bearing in mind the fact that they are a part of this great Canadian Nation 1but act in the hest interests of this Province. That may not be necessarily in the best interests of the Nation, but this government represents the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador just as the Mount Pearl Town r:ouncil represents Mount Pearl. If there is any argument between Mount Pearl and St.

John's or any other council, you would expect the mayors and councillors of these jurisdictions to stick up and argue in the best interests of their own jurisdiction. Then the provincial government,if there was a stalemate or a decision had to be made, this is where the provincial government would step in in the best interests of the Province or the who le area. So, I submit, Sir, it would have been in the best interests of this Province for this government to not side with Ottawa nor the federal 4531

April 17, 1q75 Tape 1534 (afternoon) government nor any other provincial government that agreed with this increase, but they argue on the basis of representing Newfoundland rn-4 alone, Sir, because Newfoundland has one of the highest, if not the hip,hest unemployment rates; it has the lowest, second lowest, I believe, average in this country; it has the lowest, second lowest 1I believe,average per capita income in Canada. Bearing these factors in mind, Sir, my colleagues and myself thought it only reasonable that this government do everything possible to help to keep the cost of living down.

What is one way of keeping the cost of living down?

By keeping the cost of aviation gasoline, motor gasoline and aviation turbo fuel, kerosene and stove oil, diesel fuel oil, light fuel oil, heavy oil, lubricating oil, luhricating greases and asphalt, keeping these things down hecause as one of my colleagues 1J believe, mentioned the other night, Sir, if you add all of these things up, these items that I just listed and take a ten cent surcharge increase over the 1973 costs - this is assuming now that the costs for 1975 are the same for 19731of course, they have increased since - this based on the 1973 figures would cost our Province or the people of our Province an additional $57,333,191.

In other words, it would cost the people of this Province approximately $120 for every living soul in this Province. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: Look, Sir, the minister knows very well that we cannot pinpoint figures. For,number one reason , I am using the 1Q73 figures which are the latest figures that we have available for the cost of these things. AN HONOURABLE 'MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: Now, you know, we are in - look, are we going to get nitty gritty about dollars and cents. We are in 4532

April 17, 1975 Tape No. 1535 NM - 1 the p:eneral- what is the expression used in maths? - the general order of mar,nitude. We are talking about principles. We are not talking about cents, we are not even talking about hundreds of dollars when we are talking about millions of dollars. Now, Sir, I said, the point that I was making, as soon, the basic assumption I am still leaving up there in the air, that the government is one hundred per cent correct. I personnlly and sincerely do not believe that you are one hundred per cent correct,and you are probably partly