April

2, 2001 GOVERNMENT SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 5:30 p.m. in the House of

Assembly.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Wally Andersen, MHA for

Torngat Mountains replaces George Sweeney, MHA for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

CHAIR (Mr. Joyce): Order, please!

I will introduce the Committee and then I will ask the

minister to introduce his staff and have opening remarks.

We have: Wally Andersen, Tom Osborne, Paul Shelley,

Wallace Young, Randy Collins, Bob Mercer, and myself, Eddie Joyce.

The way we usually do it is: the minister will have

his opening remarks and then he will introduce his staff. We usually start from

one, we will ask so many questions and go on, and everybody will get a chance to

ask questions. The only thing that I will ask is: When you are asking a question

or the staff when you are responding, that you state your name for Hansard.

Mr. Minister.

MR. BARRETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

First of all, I will introduce the staff. To my

immediate left is Barbara Knight, Deputy Minister; then we have Don Osmond,

Assistant Deputy Minister of Works; John Baker, Marine; Keith White, Roads;

Gordon Murphy, Human Resources; and John Byrne, Manager of Budgeting.

I guess before we discuss the specifics in the Budget,

I would like to give a brief overview of the department.

Works, Services and Transportation is government's

largest department with over 2,300 employees, of which 1,500 are permanent and

the remainder are temporary and seasonal. Our mission is that we will work in

consultation with the people of Newfoundland and Labrador to ensure a safe,

efficient and sustainable transportation system and to meet the needs of the

public sector for accommodations, public building facilities and support

services.

Our lines of business are divided along three areas:

The Works branch is responsible for the provision of building and design

services, construction and development management, facilities maintenance,

accommodation and real property acquisition. Our Services area provides clients

with purchasing services, motor vehicle fleet management, water bomber fleet and

air ambulance and services, airstrip infrastructure, printing, telephone, Web

access, mail services and related policies. Transportation covers the regulation

and the provision of the provincial highway system, marine passenger and freight

service, port management, transportation policy and other related policies.

To give you an idea of the magnitude of the

responsibility that falls within these areas, I would like to share a few

departmental statistics. Works, Services and Transportation is responsible for

the maintenance of over 800 buildings of which approximately 200 are fairly

significant in size. We have almost 2,200 vehicles in the government-wide fleet

for which the department manages the distribution and maintenance. This includes

ploughs, graders, trucks, cars and All-Terrain Vehicles. Our air services

division manages a fleet of ten aircraft including six CL-215 water bombers, a

Cessna fire spotter, two Cansos and a King Air 350 air ambulance. We maintain

thirteen airstrips in Labrador and nine on the Island. Our Transportation branch

maintains over 9,000 kilometres of roads in the Province and manages the

construction of all provincial highway projects. The Marine branch operates a

sixteen route ferry service to remote parts of the Province. Ten of these

services are contracted and six the Province operates directly. The department

uses twenty-one vessels on these services of which twelve are owned by

government and nine are owned by the contractors. Works, Services and

Transportation maintains forty-four ports around the Province.

To cover all of these responsibilities the department

has to have a large budget. Our current account budget is $159.2 million and our

capital account for 2001/2002 is $185.8 million, of which $37 million are

services provided to other departments, for a total budget of over $345 million.

In addition to our own budget, we manage multi-million dollar projects for

client departments, such as Health and Community Services, Education and

Tourism. A couple of examples are the Janeway, The Rooms and most school

projects.

I am very pleased that the department has an increase

in its provincial capital roads budget this year. An additional $6 million has

been allocated in this year's budget bringing our roads program to $22 million.

Decisions on specific projects covered under the provincial roads programs will

be made in the next several weeks. We also have an additional $6.6 million in

our current account to cover off increases in operating costs such as fuel, salt

and sand and a number of other items.

Despite a large budget and the increases we have

received this year, the department is still in need of additional funding for

preventative maintenance on vessels, vehicles, roads and buildings to increase

the life cycle of our infrastructure and to address issues surrounding aging

infrastructure.

I would like to thank you for the opportunity to

provide a brief overview of the department and I now welcome questions from the

Committee.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Mr. Shelley.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I am Paul Shelley and I am the critic for Works,

Services and Transportation. My two colleagues here tonight will be asking more

specifics on the Estimates, but I have decided to come along, ask a few

questions, make some comments and take part as much as possible tonight. Of

course, considering the road conditions and the storm outside, I guess we will

try to condense our questions and thoughts as much as possible.

First of all, congratulations to the new minister. I

realize too, after studying this department for the last couple of years, that

it is a big department. It is funny, but I guess you will be saying it as much

as I have been saying it, how vital transportation is. We always talk about

health care, schools, and everything else. The truth is, in this emergency time,

without transportation, everything else collapses, not just in emergencies but

also our entire economy. I mention that today and I have said it many, many

times. We don't put enough stress on how important transportation is to this

Province. When we look at, not just our internal road system, but the fact that

we are an island, and couple that with a land mass like Labrador, then

transportation is crucial and vital to this Province's economy and the systems

that it provides for emergency and so on.

Mr. Chair, I have a few concerns that I am just going

to raise. One very current one - and I would just like to get a comment on it

this evening - is the situation with roads maintenance with respect to the

strike right now. I think that is a genuine, constructive question that

basically is a contingency. What I understand, with all departments in the

strike situation, is that each department of government makes agreements with

government, the unions make agreements with government to put a contingency in

place, and I understand that the minister has done that. That is the

responsibility of the department to make sure we are set for this.

On top of this, coupled with a normal contingency plan

we would have, of course, is the time of year, and tonight is a perfect example.

I understand we do have a system in place. Now I am just referring to the road

situation not the ferry system. I am wondering if the minister could start with

some comments on our contingency plan that is in place for the roads system,

and, in particular, handling a storm such as this tonight.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. Mr. Chairman.

There is an agreement in place with the union to

provide essential employees in each depot, and it is my understanding there is

one person in each depot. There are forty-four depots around the Province and

they are to provide essential services.

Actually, today there were some areas of the Province

where we had some difficulties, in the Clarenville area and the Goobies area,

and that had more to do with the difficulty of the trucks crossing over the

picket line to pick up salt and to get out. In the normal course of a work

stoppage, these people, of course, naturally delay the vehicles from getting in

to pick up the salt and to get back out. The co-operation this afternoon was

much better and my understanding is that the roads in those particular areas are

in very good shape, as we speak right now. Of course, the snow is falling again

now, so I do not know if it is snowing in the Clarenville area or not.

We could manage if it is not a major storm. The other

thing about it is, if we have a major storm on the East Coast, I guess, we could

move employees around to help in some of the areas where we have a heavy

snowfall.

MR. SHELLEY: Are the unions being co-operative as

far as a situation arising now which could call for more than one person at that

depot to be called in, in an emergency situation?

For example, one person mentioned to me this morning,

if you have a central town that has a fire department and there is a fire in the

community, further out, then one person is not going to be able to clear the

road to get to that community with fire services. That is just one example. I

guess, we could get a lot of examples. I had another example this morning of a

person who was the lone depot person who could not get into the depot.

What I am saying is: Above and beyond what you have

put in place for the strike situation, that these particular types of weather

conditions are being closely monitored and, if need be, then something is put in

place for emergencies that may arise above and beyond a normal weather day.

Let's put it that way.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. Well, we would have to go to the

union to request them to provide us with some extra essential employees if we

had a real problem and a real difficulty. It would be up to the union whether

they would provide these people or not.

MR. SHELLEY: The main thing I wanted to ask is: Do

you feel confident, with the contingency you have in place, that you can handle

an emergency? As everybody said, including the union and yourself, the safety of

the people is of utmost importance and the number one priority with everybody.

Are you satisfied you can handle those situations?

MR. BARRETT: Well, depending on how much snow we

have tonight. If there is not a major storm, I think we can handle it. We have

to remember also that we have only one person in each area who is going to be

out there plowing and salting the roads. I mean, normally we would have a lot

more people involved. The conditions on the roads are not going to be the same

as if we had all those employees who are on the work stoppage out. My advice to

people is, unless it is a real emergency, do not go on the roads, especially in

a snow storm.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay, Mr. Chairman. I will leave that

for now.

The second one related to that, just very quickly to

get a comment again, is the situation with the provincial ferries. I understand

there is an agreement made on those, there is one run per day and so on. There

is a list of criteria. Besides emergencies - for example, the Bell Island ferry

has a daily routine of people going to and from work. That will not be changed.

The criteria met now with the provincial ferries situations, are you going to be

monitoring what is happening right now, and maybe some changes to that to

accommodate people better than it already is right now?

MR. BARRETT: Well, the essential agreement with

regard to the ferries calls for one return trip each day. We cannot make any

more than that unless the union agrees to make more. I mean, there was a

situation with Bell Island that they wanted the ferry to come to Portugal Cove,

return to Bell Island, and would be there in case of emergencies. We requested

the union to permit that and they would not permit it.

Today, we have had some problems with the Fogo Island

ferry. There is an ice problem down there but we also had some problems with the

employees. The essential employees refused to work. We have an agreement in

place, but they have broken that agreement. Right now we are working on that. We

are trying to get the union to get the employees to cooperate, but we are also

checking out in terms of what we can do legally.

MR. SHELLEY: On that note, we also had a problem

in Little Bay Islands with the ice. Of course, I think the icebreaker is on the

way there now.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

In the case where there is ice, it would be the same

as if the ferry was operating; we will be providing air services to these

communities.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay.

Minister, to move on to another issue, the Roads for

Rail Agreement of 1998 - I guess it is still referred to by your department as

the Roads for Rail Agreement, and the Trunk Agreement was also in that - I have

to ask this question again. I think I asked it a couple of years ago. That

agreement was in 1988, if I have my years right, and it expires in 2003. It has

been asked before by members all over, and maybe even to the minister himself at

times, but when all that allocation was done there was a different picture in

this Province as far as roads, priority and needs. There is not doubt about

that. We all know that has changed. My two questions on the Roads for Rail

Agreement are: Has there ever been money moved from the Roads for Rail initial

agreement into other road work in the Province? And is the minister considering,

especially under the circumstances of some roads that have gone to probably the

most deplorable state in the Province - all over the Province, some of them -

has there ever been any money moved from Roads for Rail to other roads, on

request, and can it be done again?

MR. BARRETT: As you are aware, the Roads for Rail

Agreement was signed back in 1988. It set up specific projects on the

Trans-Canada Highway and certain roads in the Province. I think what has

changed, in some cases, is that probably what was initially planned in terms of

some of the projects was changed. I know in my district, for example, there was

supposed to have been an overpass put in the Come By Chance-Sunnyside area, but

my understanding is that overpass was moved from Come By Chance and put in

Glovertown because they thought the priority and the greatest need was in

Glovertown.

Yes, it has been changed around somewhat in terms of

the different projects, depending on the changes in the conditions of the roads

and what was needed at a particular time.

I have always said that Come By Chance was a greater

need than Glovertown, but other people would disagree with me.

MR. SHELLEY: There were changes around. On that

premise, then, I would say: Has the minister looked at what is left now in the

Roads for Rail Agreement, which is another -

MR. BARRETT: What is left now in terms of the

Roads for Rail Agreement is all committed to finish up the projects that we have

started. It has been committed.

MR. SHELLEY: Isn't there money in there still for

ones that have not begun yet?

MR. BARRETT: Oh, yes.

MR. SHELLEY: Isn't it still possible, then, that

some of those agreements could be -

MR. BARRETT: You are talking about if we could

switch -

MR. SHELLEY: Sure.

MR. BARRETT: - money to the Baie Verte Peninsula.

I do not think we can do that right now because we have committed the money to

do designated projects in other areas.

MR. SHELLEY: Well, I did not say the Baie Verte

Peninsula but I will use it as an example.

MR. BARRETT: Let's say the La Scie highway, for

example.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes. I could have used any part of

the Province as an example, but the federal MP of the area had made the same

suggestion and told us publicly that it could be done, so I was following an MP

who said -

MR. BARRETT: The problem is, I say to the hon.

member, we have only a couple of years left in that, and right now we are in the

process of starting to negotiate with Ottawa for a new agreement. I would prefer

that we would address some of the areas that you are talking about, and I do

have some areas in my own district that are similar in terms of your district

and all other districts around the Province, that when the next agreement is

signed there may be a different set of roads and a different set of priorities.

I think that is the kind of planning we should do for the next agreement.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. Like I said, as I speak here

tonight, I am talking in general about the Province but I will use my district

or other districts as examples as the night goes on.

On the Labrador Initiative, on the phases and where it

is at right now, Minister, is the department satisfied with the rate at which we

are moving? Can you make some comments on that, and where you see it proceeding

now?

MR. BARRETT: Up to this point, in terms of the

Labrador Initiative, all the contracts and the work is on target and is on

budget. We are quite pleased with the work that is being done in Labrador; and,

of course, the major thing in terms of Labrador right now is the money. We do

not have the money to finish Phase 3 of the highway from Cartwright to Goose

Bay, and that will be part of our negotiations also with Ottawa.

MR. SHELLEY: This is the main thing that I want to

talk about tonight, and that is the provincial roads program for the Province as

a whole. First of all come some general things, because I have heard a couple of

different ones. If I cannot be given it exactly tonight, I would ask that it be

provided - it should be available - and that is the total number of kilometres

of unpaved roads on the Island portion of the Province, not counting Labrador,

because I know how many kilometres for the new initiative and so on. I have been

told at different times, different amounts. The last I heard was approximately

900 kilometres. The department should have that. If I cannot get it exactly,

tonight, I would like to have it. I think we should know it. It is a firm

statistic; it is not like we are guessing. How many kilometres of unpaved

provincial roads are there in the Province?

MR. BARRETT: It is less than 900, but more than

MR. SHELLEY: What did you say? Less than 900?

MR. BARRETT: Less than 900, but more than 600.

MR. SHELLEY: Minister, could I make this request

tonight? That is a firm statistic, like I said. Could I ask to get an exact

amount later? I do not have to have it tonight. There should be something in the

department. To tell you the truth, why I am asking, I have heard over 900 - I am

not saying from your officials here tonight - but then I have heard that it was

well over that, it was well over 1,000, and then somebody else said, no, it is

less than 900. I am getting mixed numbers, and I would just like to ask that

question here tonight. I think that is a fair question.

MR. BARRETT: There is no doubt about it. Like I

say, I am trying to be brief because I do not think we want to be here very

long. I could talk at some length. There are a lot of roads that are gravel

roads in the Province, and there are a lot of roads that were paved back in the

early seventies that are worse than gravel roads. We have situations in

Labrador, in Norman Bay, for example - it only came to my attention a couple of

weeks ago - where we do not even have a road in the community. It reminds me of

when I grew up on Woody Island; we did not have a road in the community. There

was sort of a path through the woods where you walked to school, and in the

spring of the year you had to wear what we called unemployment boots, the green

ones that came up to your knees, because of the water and mud and everything

else, and you couldn't ride a bike. We have the same kind of situation going on

in Norman Bay. The kids down there cannot even ride their bikes to school, and

we are talking about putting an east-west arterial road in St. John's. I think

we have to address some of these issues in some of these communities in

Newfoundland and Labrador before we start thinking about putting another

east-west arterial road in St. John's.

MR. SHELLEY: Well, Minister, there is nobody more

glad to hear you say that than me, I will tell you that, because I have said it

for years. We will not go back to the Ring Road and all that because we have

debated that and gone through it.

MR. BARRETT: When I got elected in 1996, when I

took over the Fortune Bay part of the district, I had communities that did not

have pavement within their communities. The women could not put their clothes

out in the summertime and they could not even barbecue in their back garden,

which most of us have the privilege to do, and take it for granted that we can

do it, and these people could not even hang their clothes out or barbecue.

Sometimes we do a lot of complaining about the fact that we have a few potholes

or a few bumps in the road, but in a lot of these communities - and I was in

Jamestown and Winter Brook a couple of Saturdays ago and it was the same way.

The people in these communities do not even have paved roads in their

communities, let alone the main road to their community being paved.

MR. SHELLEY: My next question with that statistic

again, the provincial roads, I understand that not all 900 kilometres are - you

know, they might be just small roads going out to one or two houses.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: I realize that. My second question

is: Does the department have the statistics on the age of the pavement in the

Province?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: I would like to have a report on

that, if I could.

MR. BARRETT: We have a profile on the conditions

of all of the roads, how many years, and the pavement, for every road in the

Province.

MR. SHELLEY: Could I request to see that? Could I

have a copy of that, Minister, general information that I could have?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: I am just going to get to this point

and finish with it. Basically, it is nothing that I have not said before. With

the combination of the old roads in this Province, in rural Newfoundland, and

the unpaved roads in bigger communities, the demand for - I am not talking about

paths going off somewhere, but main roads in the communities that still have

quite a number of people in them - I do not know if you can put it down as

urgent, but if it is anything like in my district and your district and The

Straits & White Bay North - I was up there, and in different districts.

MR. BARRETT: St. John's South, right?

MR. SHELLEY: Pardon?

MR. BARRETT: St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: You should see some of the roads

in St. John's South.

MR. SHELLEY: Wherever it is, provincial roads, the

demand must be so great.

I have two questions. What is the total cost of demand

for roads such as those: old pavement and gravel roads? What would be an

estimated demand? We will answer that question first, and then I will get to the

second part.

MR. BARRETT: Excluding the work that needs to be

done in Labrador in terms of construction, the road in terms of Phase 3, but to

bring our roads up to a standard in Labrador, the roads that are already in

Labrador and on the Island, we would be looking at roughly $198 million to bring

them up to bring them up to any kind of a reasonable standard.

MR. SHELLEY: Around $200 million is my guess.

MR. BARRETT: My boss behind me here is telling me

differently.

Pardon?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes. So, I was estimating about $200

million. That is what I had estimated from before. That is old pavement and

gravel roads that needs to be now. That is what you have a demand for.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: Now, minister when it comes to -

MR. BARRETT: I will give you an example: to bring

the roads up to a respectable standard in my district alone would cost around

$24.4. million.

MR. SHELLEY: So, you would pretty well use the

budget.

MR. BARRETT: Pardon?

MR. SHELLEY: You could pretty well use the budget,

as I could and as a number of other rural districts could.

MR. BARRETT: We will make a decision on that in

the next couple of weeks.

MR. SHELLEY: If it all goes in your district, it

could be a bit rough.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the

minister, too, on the ratings: I know you have talked to the members and you

have talked to me and you have talked to other members who are going to have

road problems and so on, and that is certainly a good practice, but also you

have the depots in your department and your people around the Province who

service these roads all the time. When it comes to rating these roads - I do not

mean funding for this year but basic rating, and then have them in the library

say that these are deplorable and these are deplorable, how bad they are - is

there a rating system that you use within your department, aside from what you

ask your MHAs about and everything?

MR. BARRETT: Yes, there is a rating system in

terms of the roads and how bad the roads are. The problem is that just about

every district in the Province does have roads that need to be done. I guess, as

a department, you look at not only the conditions of the roads but you also

realize that, in the case of Newfoundland, construction jobs are also very, very

important to the economy, so you not only try to improve the road situation but

you also try to spread the money around the Province to provide the economic

activity that is needed in a lot of communities in Newfoundland.

MR. SHELLEY: I understand that.

MR. BARRETT: There are two factors actually: the

roads themselves, and also I think we have to take into consideration that this

department, in terms of its buildings, in terms of its roads and all the other

services that provide in Newfoundland, we are also a major employer and provide

a lot of economic activity throughout the Province. You have to take that into

consideration as well.

MR. SHELLEY: It is twofold.

One last question on the roads situation. With the

additional money this year, the $6 million additional, is that directly into

provincial roads, not with engineering, not with anything? Is it going to go

into road construction? That would make it - if I am guessing right, and I am

not guessing, if I am estimating right - approximately $18 million this year

towards provincial roads construction.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: Those are my numbers, from the

figures.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, there is an extra $6 million for

road construction. In addition to that, this year we went, in the budget,

looking for $2 million to do emergency culverts and small bridges that need to

be done throughout the Province. There will also be $2 million out of the fund

that will be designated to do these emergency culverts and bridges.

MR. SHELLEY: That is aside from the $18 million on

provincial road construction?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: So that is $20 million?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. In addition to that, we have $2

million as the provincial contribution for the Long Island causeway.

MR. SHELLEY: My first suggestion is to take your

$10 million contingency fund you have in your budget, which is for emergencies,

use it, and add it to your $18 million to make it $28 million, but I don't think

that is going to happen.

MR. BARRETT: I would appreciate every bit of

support I can. You would have no argument from me.

MR. SHELLEY: You certainly need it, because the

department needs it. I can go on about that all night.

There is one last question, I think, that needs to be

asked. Port aux Basques and the new ferry, I want to comment on that, and also a

comment in the news recently about a private enterprise talking about a speed

ferry for the Port aux Basques run. Have you been contacted about that? What

comments can you offer us on that situation?

MR. BARRETT: My understanding is: I met with Mr.

Sid Hynes shortly after I became minister. He gave me a report and an update on

Port aux Basques. There won't be a fast ferry this year. I guess any talks of

privatization are pure speculation. There is nothing against some individual, if

they wanted to, I guess, to invest their money and put a private crossing from

Port aux Basques to North Sydney, there is nothing to say now that the person

could not do it, if somebody wanted to finance putting a ferry on, that would

compete with Marine Atlantic.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Chairman, thank you for the time.

I have to leave now, but my colleagues will ask some specifics.

Thank you, Minister.

CHAIR: Thank you.

All the best, Mr. Shelley.

Mr. Osborne.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have just a couple of questions for the minister. I

realize it is a St. John's district, but you should see some of the roads in my

district. It is not your responsibility, I know that.

MR. SHELLEY: Talk to Andy Wells.

MR. BARRETT: Call Andy.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes. That is part of the concern,

I guess, the fact that it is a city responsibility.

Just a quick story: one road in my district, actually,

which is a dirt road, and the houses there do not have water and sewer,

sidewalks and whatever, this past winter the road was impassable for a couple of

weeks. Through fighting with the city to try to get the road cleared, we finally

managed to get it cleared because an ambulance needed to get up there. They sent

a grader up and the grader tipped over. Things in some parts of the city are not

always pavement, asphalt and concrete.

I have a couple of general questions before I get into

the Estimates. On the salt sheds throughout the Province, and the salt storage

areas, I know that a couple of the salt storage areas are located near water

supplies. Are there any plans in the future to have those moved, or what is

going to happen with those?

MR. BARRETT: We have a continuous program within

the department to upgrade and do new salt sheds. We did have an allocation last

year in our budget for that, which was $300,000, because they need to be

updated, refurbished and redone all the time because of our difficult winter

that we have had, and we had to take the $300,000 that we had allocated to buy

extra salt. Instead of the salt sheds, we had to buy the extra salt.

If there are some salt sheds that you suggest are

dangerously close to water lines, they would have been approved by the

Department of Environment, so I don't know why - if you can give me some more

specifics, we can have it checked into. If it is a threat to water supplies and

the Department of Environment tells us we are not supposed to have them there,

then under the law of the land we would have no other choice but move them.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. I can certainly pass on one

to you later. I do not know how much it is affecting the area, but I know when I

traveled across the Province a month or so ago, that was one of the issues.

Actually, I received a letter from the municipality talking about how close the

salt supply was to their water shed, and the fact that they had some concerns.

In talking about the salt budget, I know that there

are other provinces that are using other chemicals rather than salt. While they

may not necessarily work here in every case, I think it is either Nova Scotia or

New Brunswick; I cannot recall for sure, but it is one of those two provinces,

that are actually using a water and salt - it is a brine mixture that they spray

on the street. In speaking with that province, they have found that has been

quite successful and far less costly. Have you looked into doing that, or taking

the same measure here?

MR. BARRETT: Keith White, who is the Assistant

Deputy Minister for Roads, would probably be able to answer that question. It is

pretty technical. I have not gotten that far yet.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

MR. WHITE: The whole issue of salt is being

addressed with Environment Canada. Salt, we are being told, anyway, is going to

be listed as a toxic substance. Now last August, I think, there was an

announcement made by Environment Canada that it was being looked at very

seriously. We are being told, anyway, that it is going to be listed as a toxic

substance. Now, the environmentalists contend that it is toxic to the

environment; it is not toxic to human beings.

The short and long of it is that we are going to have

the enter into a fairly extensive process with other provinces and

municipalities and Environment Canada to tighten up the processes, procedures,

application rates, equipment utilization, the whole nine yards of the winter

salt usage issue. It is going to be a long process, it is going to require

additional funding, but we feel, at the end of the day, usage will be reduced

and the environmental considerations will be factored as much as possible into

any decision that is made.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I guess if it is deemed to be a

toxic substance then the issue of the brine that they use is probably going to

be discontinued as well.

MR. WHITE: No, not necessarily, because it is

efficiency. What you are trying to do is cut the consumption while at the same

time maintaining or increasing efficiency. Brine is one. There is a process that

is called pre-wetting, where essentially what you do is have brine and coarse

salt. Just with the coarse salt there is a fair amount of bounce, so the stuff

hits the asphalt and a lot of it, or a certain percentage, will bounce to the

side of the road. You lose the effectiveness, but it is there in the

environment.

There are a lot of issues like that: new equipment,

brine, pre-wetting, better weather forecasting, anti-icing as opposed to

de-icing. Anti-icing is getting out first with the layer of salt, so that when

you get the snow it does not stick to the asphalt surface. If it does, you will

need extra salt to break the bond between the asphalt and the ice. It is a

science. It is becoming a science. We have started at it and it is going to be a

continuing process for several years. During that period of time, things such as

salt shed locations will be factored in, as well as usage, handling, equipment,

the whole nine yards.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Have you had any dealings with the

other Atlantic Provinces in the use of brine? I know they have found it very

cost-effective. If so, I guess my question is: Why haven't we started to use

that process here?

MR. WHITE: In Canada, anyway, it is really in its

infancy experimental stage. We are dealing through all provinces and major

municipalities on a committee that is addressing this whole issue with

Environment Canada. The product has not been designated toxic yet, but we feel

it is coming shortly. We, with other provinces, are trying to be proactive to

develop a management plan that Environment Canada will participate in and, at

the end of the day, will be satisfied, subject to, we feel, maybe audits and

things of this nature, that we are doing our work while, at the same time,

everybody acknowledges that you cannot ban salt in Canada. We depend on it. The

transportation system needs it, and the alternative products are just too

expensive, so salt has to continue to be used. The aim right now is to tighten

up on the whole, from start to finish, and improve the equipment that is used,

and these sorts of issues will be looked at and dealt with.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I thank you for the answers.

I have only a couple of questions regarding the

Estimates and I will start off with the Minister's Office, 1.1.01., item 03.

Last year, the transportation component was budgeted at $41,700 and there was

$62,000 spent. I realize that we are not dealing with huge amounts of money

here, but I was just wondering what the additional expenditure was for.

MR. BARRETT: The previous ministers who were in

the department were St. John's members, so there was extra travel for the

ministers' assistants. If the minister is from out of town, and in this case was

from the West Coast, there is a fair amount of expense that would be directly

related to the ministers' assistants in terms of traveling. That is why there

was an increase in that fund for last year. That is why we have gone back to our

regular budget of $41,700; because, in my case, there would not be the same kind

of expenses as somebody from the West Coast.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Your assistant, then, is from your

area?

MR. BARRETT: The assistant is, but you would have

the expense of airfare travel.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

MR. BARRETT: I may be back here next year saying

differently, that we have to go for an increase.

WITNESS: Or you are replaced as minister.

MR. BARRETT: Or I may be replaced as minister,

yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 1.2.02., Administrative

Support, General Administration, again under

section 03., there is a fairly

significant increase in the transportation budget for this year as compared to

last year.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. Some of that would be extra

money for relocation expenses, air services, and temporary boarding and lodging

of people for air services.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Would that be the relocation of

the government employees that was announced, then?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. It would be for temporary board

and lodging for some of them, and there has to be some training and that sort of

thing take place.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. I guess each department,

then, would budget into their own departments the cost of the relocation of

employees within that department?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 06., Purchased Services.

MR. BARRETT: There is an allocation there for

training of new staff. We have a fair number of new staff in air services and we

have to do some training there. We would be purchasing the training for that.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Subhead 1.2.03., Policy Development.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE:

Section 05., Professional

Services, there is a jump there of $3,800 spent last year to $17,500 this year.

MR. BARRETT: That is additional funding for

consultant studies.

MR. T. OSBORNE: What would the purpose of the

consultant studies be?

MR. MURPHY: These would be for professional

studies on highway infrastructure associated with the general highways

infrastructure across the Province.

MR. T. OSBORNE: New highway construction or bypass

road constructions?

MR. MURPHY: It may or may not. We have to have

consultants do some pre-engineering studies, I guess, some initial studies to

see what needs to be done in various areas. We have to get professional

consultants to do that.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay, thank you.

Under subhead 2.1.01., Road Maintenance, 04.,

Supplies.

MR. BARRETT:

Section 04., office supplies?

MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes. There is a jump there of what

was budgeted last year, $180,300 to $222,900.

MR. BARRETT: That would be just normal increases

in office supplies, that is all, nothing major.

MR. T. OSBORNE: That is 20 per cent of the budget,

though. Are you anticipating using 20 per cent more supplies this year?

MR. BARRETT: We revised it. Last year it was

$180,300 and this year we spent $186,000. There may be increased costs for

photocopiers and that sort of thing. Some of that stuff was contracts that were

entered into four or five years ago and now there are new contracts coming up so

the cost would be going up. When you look at that, that is a lot of it, in terms

of equipment.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Subhead 2.1.03.06., Purchased

Services. There is $500,000 over the revised budget last year and the Estimates

this year.

MR. BARRETT: We have new roads in Labrador, and

this will be our first summer for summer maintenance of these roads, grading and

all that sort of stuff. That is why there is a substantial increase there, new

roads added to the inventory in Labrador.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay, so that should be a fairly

steady number from -

MR. BARRETT: Yes. If you want to do a flip of

that, in 2.1.04.06., for example, Snow and Ice Control, for the same reason

there is an increase, because of the Trans-Labrador Highway.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes, okay.

Under 2.2.02., Technical Support Services, again under

06., Purchased Services, it is the same amount budgeted this year as last year,

but I was just wondering why there would be a need for that amount if there was

$200,000 less actually spent last year?

MR. BARRETT: Last year our prices came in for the

insurance on our buildings substantially lower than we had anticipated and lower

than in other years. This year we really do not know what the costs are going to

be so we would have included the same amount in our budget that has been the

norm, but we got a real good rate last year on our insurance on our buildings.

Our insurance went really down. It is not very often that is going to happen.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Why would it not be down again

this year?

MR. BARRETT: We do not know. If it is the same

price then there will be a saving, and then we may be able to do the road in

Norman Bay. If we save the $100,000 then we will transfer the money to Norman

Bay.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Or give Andy some money to do a

couple of the roads in Shea Heights and Blackhead area.

MR. BARRETT: Okay. I am pretty sure if we have a

winter like we did last winter, and if we save $100,000 in insurance, we will

need it for salt and sand.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 2.2.04., Rentals, 03., Transportation and

Communications, again there is a fairly significant jump there in the estimate

this year, almost $140,000.

MR. BARRETT: We are responsible for moving the

departments under the relocation, and that would be why there would be an

increase there. We are the movers and shippers, remember, in my outline of the

role of the department? We do everything around here except health care and

education. If you were going to move office tomorrow, for example, if your

office had to be moved over to the West Block, our department would move you.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Or we might have to move you back

to the East Block.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: When you move us to the West

Block.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: We will hope you are still here,

Percy.

MR. BARRETT: That is a debate for another time.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.2.05., Salt Storage Sheds,

06., Purchased Services, I am just wondering why the allocation last year wasn't

spent.

MR. BARRETT: The allocation was spent and we did

not use it for salt sheds. I think I elaborated on that earlier.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Oh, yes, you did. Okay.

MR. BARRETT: It was transferred from there to the

purchase of salt, so it did not indicate here in the revised because we did not

spend it for that specific purpose; but we had to go to Treasury Board to get a

special warrant done to transfer the money to salt the roads and sand the roads,

and lease extra equipment or what have you to plough the roads the winter.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.3.02., Maintenance of

Equipment, 03., Transportation and Communications, last year there was an

increase of $62,000.

MR. BARRETT: Which one is that?

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under

section 03., Transportation

and Communications.

MR. BARRETT: Okay, that is 03.?

MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: There were extra freight costs on

part deliveries. As you know, we also had a tremendous increase in our budget in

terms of snow clearing and all that sort of thing. Naturally, there would have

been more breakdown of equipment and that sort of thing, so we would have to get

more parts delivered. The freight costs for the parts was the reason for the

increase.

MR. T. OSBORNE: The next set of questions would be

under subhead 3.2.03., again under Transportation and Communications, there is a

significant jump in what was spent last year, and the Estimates this year are

$60,000 higher than what was budgeted last year.

MR. BARRETT: Which one is that?

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under

section 03., Transportation

and Communications.

MR. BARRETT: That was allocated as $75,000, but

that is a very floating thing because the benefits to our employees in terms of

travel and accommodations, if they are a certain distance away from

headquarters, their headquarters may be in Clarenville, Burin or -

MR. T. OSBORNE: I think we are on the wrong - you

are up on 3.2.02., are you?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: No, I am on 3.2.03.

MR. BARRETT: Subhead 3.2.03.? Okay. Which account?

MR. T. OSBORNE: It is Transportation and

Communications still.

MR. BARRETT: That would be transportation and

accommodation for employees like our engineering crews. If they are only a

certain distance away from headquarters they do not get reimbursed, but if they

are a great distance away they get reimbursed. It depends on, when we announce

the provincial roads program, where the projects are around the Province.

Sometimes they are close to headquarters and we do not incur a great cost, but

if they are a far distance away from headquarters then we have to pay for their

meal allowance and so on.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Why would there be such a jump

from $90,000 to $235,700 last year, then? I presume you would have known up

front?

MR. BARRETT: We had a lot of Labrador highway

projects.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay, but that would have been

budgeted in last year's budget, would it?

MR. BARRETT: Not necessarily. You just give it a

ballpark figure. We did have a lot more road construction in, not remote areas

but away from the headquarters more than other years.

For example, we have an extra increase in our

provincial roads program, so therefore we would anticipate there will be extra

expenses.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 05., Professional Services,

there is a pretty steep jump from $5,000 to $150,000. There is nothing at all

budgeted this year. What would that allocation have been for?

MR. WHITE: That covers consultants. I cannot

recall exactly where, this year, specific instances that we utilized consultants

with (inaudible). We use them in all our different programs, but that is the

category we charge the consultants off to. Again, when you budget at the

beginning of the year it is hard to know what kind of services you are going to

require as you go through a capital construction program. It could be

specialized bridge analysis or soil analysis. We have our own bridge engineers,

but we are not heavy into the soil analysis part of it. We use consultants for

that. We use consultants for some traffic studies and environmental studies.

MR. T. OSBORNE: There is a

section there, though,

that I read earlier for soil analysis. This particular

section would not deal

with soil analysis.

MR. WHITE: That refers to our soils lab group, our

materials engineering group. I am speaking of the sub-soil analysis, drilling,

taking of cores, doing a lot of laboratory work on the bearing capacities of the

soils and these sorts of things. We do not handle any of that ourselves. We

contract that out to consultants. This is the type of stuff, environmental

assessment work, we do not do a lot of ourselves. This is the category where it

would be charged. When you enter into a capital program, it is hard to predict

what kind of technical issues are going to arise that we need consultants to

give us advice on.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under

section 06., Purchased

Services, there is an increase of $8 million. What would that be for, a road or

MR. BARRETT: That is under the provincial roads

program and it went over budget because we had a bridge on the West Coast that

got damaged and we had to do some work with it. That is why it went over.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay, so that work is going to be

done this year?

MR. BARRETT: No, it was done last year but we had

to -

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay, there is an $8 million

increase in this year's budget, though.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, that is the provincial roads

program. That is the increase, I told you, of $2 million in terms of culverts

and the $6 million extra over and above last year. That is where it would show

the -

MR. T. OSBORNE: That is the program that Paul was

speaking to you on earlier, the $6 million extra for roads?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 10., Grants and Subsidies, $1.5 million.

MR. BARRETT: There was $300,000 allocated. That

was a special program that we had, a brush cutting program that we put people to

work to clear away the brush from the sides of the highways. It was a program

that came in after the original budget.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

I have one other question. I know that there are

others here who would like to partake in the actual Estimates questions. Where

in the budget would the allocation be for the increased cost of fuel this year

over last year?

MR. BARRETT: That would be in the supplies.

WITNESS: Under 2.2.03.

MR. BARRETT: Under 2.2.03.06.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Purchased Services?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: There is a decrease there, though,

from last year to this year.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, but last year we budgeted

$19,869,000 but we went up to $21,379,000, and this year the expenditure is

increased over last year because it is at $20,359,800. We are sort of expecting

not so bad a winter next winter as we had this winter.

MR. T. OSBORNE: You are expecting fuel prices to

go down?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: They are still relatively high,

though, compared to twelve or fourteen months ago, so wouldn't it be -

MR. BARRETT: The most we can do with this, I say

to the hon. member, when we are talking about increases in fuel prices, the most

we can do is to guess at it because nobody can predict what is going to happen.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I guess that is the reason for my

question. I searched through to try and find where the increase would be for

fuel, and I would have anticipated seeing a jump in this year's budget for the

anticipated fuel cost, unless government knows something that we do not and fuel

prices are going to drop.

MR. BARRETT: We do not have that crystal ball. I

can assure you, if we did, we would make money. We probably would not be in this

business. We will just have to see. It is probably not enough; I do not know.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Pardon me?

MR. BARRETT: I said that we will have to see at

the end of the year if it was enough or not. There is an increase.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Obviously, you have a lot of

machines in your department that are on the road so one would anticipate,

between the buildings and the machines and so on, that there would have been a

jump in the budget.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. The figure here is just the

heating for our buildings. It does not include the gasoline for our vehicles,

and that sort of thing.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Where would that come in?

MR. BARRETT: That is under the transportation

category, 2.3.02.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I am sorry. What was that number?

MR. BARRETT: Maintenance of Equipment.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes, what heading are you?

MR. BARRETT: Actually, we are budgeting slightly

higher than we did last year.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.3.02.04.?

CHAIR: Under 2.3.02.04.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, 2.3.02.04., Supplies.

Last year we spent $10 million and we were budgeted $8

million.

MR. T. OSBORNE: There is a drop again.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I do not see the logic, if gas

prices are up.

MR. BARRETT: If we have a less severe winter, we

will not use as much fuel. That is not only in terms of fuel; that is other

supplies in terms of parts. For example, we purchased new vehicles for the RNC.

They have a new fleet, so we do not expect so many repairs either. There are

some new vehicles in the fleet, and that sort of stuff. All of this is

calculated not only in terms of the fuel costs. We anticipate there will

probably be some savings because the RNC were given $600,000 to buy new police

vehicles, so the maintenance on them mostly will be warranty this year.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So that would give them what,

fifteen to twenty new vehicles?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: How many? Do you know offhand?

MR. BARRETT: More than fifteen or twenty. It was

$600,000.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Six hundred thousand.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. You are talking about thirty

vehicles, probably. They are only small cars, unless they are souped-up jobs.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Jeepers, I would say it must be at

least $30,000 for a police vehicle.

MR. BARRETT: Okay, so you would get twenty new

vehicles.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: That is just one example. There are

other factors. It is the total budget for gasoline and all the other things.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Osborne.

Mr. Young.

MR. YOUNG: Thank you.

Under 3.2.04., Highways - Transportation Initiative,

04., Supplies.

MR. BARRETT: Under three what?

MR. YOUNG: Under 3.2.04.04., Supplies.

MR. BARRETT: Transportation Initiative?

MR. YOUNG: Right.

MR. BARRETT: Which one?

MR. YOUNG: Supplies, 04.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

The question?

MR. YOUNG: There was an increase there.

MR. BARRETT: The revised increase?

MR. YOUNG: Right.

MR. BARRETT: Well, with most of these we just

estimate what the program is going to cost, because most of that is tendered in

terms of the highways project - the federal government transportation

initiatives. All of these are approximate. When the tenders come in, then there

will be fixed prices. So that sort of fluctuates.

MR. YOUNG: Okay, thanks.

MR. BARRETT: You notice that in Purchased Services

we budgeted for $29,549,500, but the actual cost was $28,400,000. It went down

on one and up on another one.

MR. YOUNG: Fine.

Under Regional Roads, Transportation and

Communications, there again it was -

MR. BARRETT: Again, that would be the same

explanation I gave the hon. member for St. John's South. These roads were

probably a great distance away from the headquarters. Sometimes, because of

collective agreements and seniority, you have to take people from some area and

put them in the other and then we have to pay for their accommodations and

travel.

MR. YOUNG: Subhead 3.3.01.

MR. BARRETT: Subhead 3.3.01.

MR. YOUNG: Professional Services.

MR. BARRETT: Pardon?

MR. YOUNG: Professional Services.

MR. BARRETT: Subhead 3.3.01., Purchased Services?

WITNESS: Professional Services, 05.

MR. YOUNG: Professional Services.

MR. BARRETT: That would have been under our

buildings capital program. Don, I don't know if you have the details on that

one.

MR. OSMOND: To just background a little bit on the

works branch, virtually everything is contracted out as far as professional

design, management, and things of that nature are concerned, so it is a number

that can vary considerably, depending upon the amount of construction activity

that might be taking place. Certainly last year was a significant year, so that

is why that is up.

MR. YOUNG: The Purchased Services you had

estimated for this year is considerably different than last year.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, because there is a lot of

capital work to be done this year. That was announced in the Budget.

MR. OSMOND: Yes, that is correct; it is a timing

thing. The design happens first, of course, and then the construction will often

follow the following year.

MR. BARRETT: For example, in that budget, there

was a new chronic care facility announced for Clarenville. The Professional

Services would come at this stage of the program. There are some others that we

are going ahead with, the facility in Grand Bank and others.

MR. YOUNG: I assume 3.3.02.05., would be -

MR. BARRETT: Number 05., Professional Services.

MR. YOUNG: Yes, that was an increase.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, that is because of the increase

in the capital program.

MR. YOUNG: Under subhead 4.2.01., Marine

Operations, there was an increase in Salaries.

MR. BARRETT: Subhead 4.2.01.? In which account

centre?

MR. YOUNG: Marine Operations.

MR. BARRETT: Subhead 4.2.01.01., Salaries?

MR. YOUNG: Right.

MR. BARRETT: The revised was up. There was

additional operating funding for Hull 100 and increased payments for overtime,

bonus and banked hours for the collective agreement. Sometimes there is a

carry-over for employees in terms of the collective agreement.

MR. YOUNG: That is it. That is all I wanted to go

through.

CHAIR: Mr. Collins.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you very much.

I don't have a lot of questions; most of them have

been covered off. All of the great discrepancies or disparities in the amounts

that were budgeted last year revised to the Estimates this year, most of them

have been covered off.

I do have a couple of questions that I would like to

ask, the first one being on subhead 2.2.02. It is just for my own understanding.

In fact, Technical Support Services states, "Appropriations provide for

technical support in the areas of special engineering projects..." I am

wondering about occupational health and safety. I am just wondering what that

specifically applies to, the occupational health and safety, under the Technical

Support Services?

MR. BARRETT: Are you talking about Purchased

Services?

MR. COLLINS: I am talking on the heading.

MR. BARRETT: Okay.

That would be Technical Support Services. We would

have had -

MR. COLLINS: No, for the occupational health and

safety part of it. I am just wondering how that fits into it.

MR. BARRETT: Don can probably answer that.

MR. OSMOND: The sort of things that we would be

looking at there would be air quality, for example, and there has been

significant emphasis on that in the past couple of years. Also brought into that

would be fire safety and bringing things up to current fire safety code. That

would be the major emphasis. The department also, in a safety program kind of

way if you will, has put considerable effort into ensuring that our own

activities are done in a safe manner by having our own occupational health and

safety people on staff who will be monitoring our activities, our projects, our

construction and so forth, to ensure that proper OHS practices are being adhered

to in the work that we carry out.

MR. COLLINS: That would be just that area, in

keeping up with new standards or things put into your department that need to

meet the codes of the occupational health and safety legislation, or changes?

MR. OSMOND: Yes, that is generally correct.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

Under 3.2.03., Improvement and Construction -

Provincial Roads, the question was raised by one of the other members and I did

not fully get the answer. Under 03., Transportation and Communications, with a

budget of $90,000 to a revised $235,700 and an estimate for this year for

$150,000, I did not get the answer as to what necessitated the increase from

$90,000 to $235,700.

MR. BARRETT: The explanation I gave was: It was

because it had to deal with the benefits, travel allowances of employees, and it

depended on what projects were allocated and the distance they were away from

their headquarters.

MR. COLLINS: Okay.

Under Salaries, you have $30,000.

MR. BARRETT: The engineering, for example, is

covered. The salaries would be covered under other parts of the account centres.

MR. COLLINS: Okay.

MR. BARRETT: Here is the actual direct cost of

doing those road projects under the capital program. The salaries would be

included in another section.

MR. COLLINS: Subhead 3.2.06.03., Trans-Labrador

Highway, Transportation and Communications, it went from $2.2 million to $2.65

million and an estimate this year for $1.4 million.

MR. BARRETT: Again, that would be depending upon

the program. There is a smaller program this year. As you notice, the capital is

down. Last year we spent $50 million on the capital program, doing the

Trans-Labrador Highway, and this year it is down to $38 million. That would

reflect, because that is transportation of people into the project itself, the

actual administration of the construction of the highway in Labrador.

MR. COLLINS: The actual administration cost for

the construction that took place last year was $2.65 million?

MR. BARRETT: Yes, the Transportation and

Communications.

MR. COLLINS: Purchased Services was budgeted at

$51,580,000, revised to $50,750,000 and a estimate for 2001-2002 of $38,900,000.

MR. BARRETT: That would be based on contracts that

we already have let for the Trans-Labrador Highway, and we have some carry-over

projects from last year. There are some carry- over projects and new projects.

We have a list of them, if the hon. member wants to see them.

MR. COLLINS: Under the Trans-Labrador Highway, or

I guess more specifically the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund, could the

minister tell us how much money is remaining in that fund today?

MR. BARRETT: I don't have the figure offhand right

now, but we could get it for you.

MR. COLLINS: Again on that topic, I wonder if the

minister is aware of whether or not the Initiative Fund, when it was announced,

the $340 million or $360 million -

MR. BARRETT: It was $360 million.

MR. COLLINS: The $360 million - whether or not the

interest from that monies was kept separate to go towards Phase 3 of the

Labrador Highway.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, it goes back into the fund.

MR. COLLINS: Does it go back into the fund or is

it kept separate for Phase 3?

MR. BARRETT: No, it goes back into the fund.

MR. COLLINS: So it is not kept separate for that

section?

MR. BARRETT: No. We might very well make the

decision to do that Phase 3, but right now it is not specifically earmarked for

Phase 3.

MR. COLLINS: Okay.

Under 4.3.03., Aircraft Replacement, the new King Air,

I do not have a question on it. I just want to tell the minister that was

something that was much needed in last year's budget, and that aircraft is

performing a vital service to people in Labrador. I can tell you, from the

people I have talked to, it is certainly appreciated that a new aircraft was

found. The old one served the people quite well, and I am sure the new one will

be much more accurate - I do not know about much more accurate - but she

certainly will be used a great deal. It was pretty important to the people who

live in Labrador; particularly, I know, in the area where I live, in Labrador

West. That was a good expenditure of money and it has certainly not gone

unnoticed or unappreciated.

MR. BARRETT: I take no credit for it. I would like

to, but I have to pass the credit along to the previous minister.

WITNESS: He is the Minister of Mines now.

MR. COLLINS: Those are all the questions I have,

Mr. Chairman.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Mercer?

MR. MERCER: No questions.

CHAIR: Mr. Andersen?

MR. ANDERSEN: I pass (inaudible).

CHAIR: Ms Jones?

MS JONES: No questions, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: No questions.

I have one, and one comment: just that there is a

bypass road through Port aux Basques. Is that contained in the Estimates this

year, and approved by the department?

MR. BARRETT: There is a study being done, and a

cost analysis, and hopefully there will be some work done on that overpass in

this fiscal year.

CHAIR: Okay.

The second thing is: from a person who has been in

rural Newfoundland, Minister, I would just like to pass on to you and your staff

that the work that the local staff out on the West Coast are doing on the roads

is to be very much commended, to see the roads done early and kept up to a very

good, acceptable standard. On behalf of the constituents, I think the staff are

doing a great job. If you can, pass it on to the people on the West Coast,

particularly in the Bay of Islands area, that the job is well appreciated and it

is much deserving of credit to the local staff in the area.

MR. BARRETT: Thank you very much. I will pass on

your comments.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 5.1.04., carried.

On motion, Department of Works, Services and

Transportation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

MR. BARRETT: Thank you.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.