Manitoba Hansard — 15 May 1968 (Sitting 83, 28th Legislature, 2nd Session)

28-2-83

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, May 15, 1968 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. lYIR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills 2057 I'd like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 75 students of Grades 1 to 8 standing from the Ninette School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Walter Cheslock. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Rock Lake.

We also have with us today 60 students of Grade 8 standing of the John Gunn School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Ganetsky and Mr. Klassen. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party. On behalf of all the Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly, I welcome you all here today. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. lYIR . NELSON SHOE l\:lAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I would like to direct a question to my honourable friend the Minister of Wel fare.

Is it the policy of the government now to suspend Medicare provisions under the Social Allowances Act to couples that are in receipt of the old age pension and full supplement? HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Welfare) (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, there's been no change in policy. It would depend on what other assets they might have in addition to their pension cheques and supplement. l\IB , SHOEl\:lAKER: Mr. Speaker, a subsequent question.

Well then, is it a fact that the department through the social offices in the province are sending out a number of letters advis ing people of their suspension of services as of June 30th? lYIR . CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, only if their circumstances have changed since they were last assessed and they no longer qualify on a needs test basis. lYIR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. lYIR . DOUGLAS CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Attorney-General.

I would like to ask him when I can expect the Return which was ordered by the House one year, two months and two days ago. HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): I'd have to check the calendar, Mr. Speaker, but I'll undertake to look into that personally right away and give him an answer. l\IB , CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Does my honourable friend think I am rushing him? l\IB, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. l\IB , ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr.

Speaker, this morning I asked the Minister of Industry and Commerce whether members of the Information Services Branch were working on a part-time basis in radio stations in the city. Could he indicate now whether ... HON. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Minister of Industry & Commerce)(River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I'm trying to obtain the information. lYIR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. lYIR . RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Provincial Secretary.

Since the centennial of Manitoba is only some two years away, can he indicate when the government will be drafting plans or announcing plans for the centennial of Manitoba? HON. STEWART E. McLEAN, Q. C. (Provincial Secretary) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, this matter is under consideration and I could not give any date when plans or proposals will be announced. lYIR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. lYIR . LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): I'd like to ask a question of the Honourable the Minister of Health.

Is the Manitoba Hospital Commission reviewing its policy in regard to exemption of premiums to student children of widowed parents? I think that I mentioned a number of years that there's no true exemption.

2058 May 15, 1968 HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (Minister of Health)(Flin Flon): There's been no change in policy, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill): I'd just like to record a couple of changes in Hansard. One was on Page 1793. When I was referring to the Jones Commission, I inadvert ently referred to it in respect to its economic plight of the Town of Thompson rather than the Town of Churchill.

Secondly, on Page 1796, in referring to the book price, I said three to four millions of doll.ars for five hundred million bushels of grain in storage. I meant five mil lion bushels of grain in storage. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debates on second readings. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, would you call the Committee of Supply. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brokenhead. MR. SAMUEL USKIW (Brokenhead): Mr. Speaker, I'm not just sure of the procedure here. I wanted to enter into a motion of grievance. I was just wondering whether the Speaker might correct me. HON.

GURNEY EVANS (Provincial Treasurer) (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, if I may speak to a point of order, I think my honourable friend should speak after I move the motion. I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Attorney-General, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, as usual during the time when we consider going into the Committee of Supply, there is an opportunity for members to present their various grievances before the House, and I want to talk this afternoon on the question of the way the Conservative Government of Manitoba has misled the people of the province over the last number of years, and I'm going to be quite specific, Mr. Speaker, in that this is a question that is coming before the people in the community of Selkirk very soon.

Over the years since 1959 the Conservative Government of Manitoba has always tended to indicate to the community in Selkirk that they are just about to launch a massive development program in the development of industry, in the development of water supplies, and what have you, and I can give you examples, Mr. Speaker, of these particular proposals. I have taken the trouble to check them out with the provincial library and I find that there a number of things that were promised to the people of Selkirk that have not come to pass, and, Mr. Speaker, these go back to 1959. The reason I raise this question, Mr.

Speaker, is because the community of Selkirk is now in a position where they have to sort of take the bull by the horn, if you like, and do some of the things themselves which were originally promised that they would be done by the Province of Manitoba in consultation with the town of Selkirk. If you want to go back to April 29, 1959, the Premier was speaking in the town of Selkirk, the then Premier the Honourable Duff Roblin, and he told the people, and the headline, Mr. Speaker is: "Sales Tax for Manitoba is Eye-Wash. Soft Water was the Big One.

We are going to provide the community of Selkirk with soft water." I want to elaborate somewhat on that point because I want to quote in fact the Honourable the Member for Wolseley who was then the Premier: "For Selkirk, the Premier took a serious look at our water situation. We will do what we can to bring about an agreement between the province and the town, an agreement fair to other parties or other parts of the province to bring a supply of good water to Selkirk. " Now, Mr.

Speaker, this is in 1959 and now we have almost 1969, ten years later, and the town of Selkirk is now faced with a proposal that they will have to either support a money by-law, or otherwise, to introduce a soft water plant for the purposes of providing the soft water for the residents of Selkirk that our Premier of Manitoba promised them in 1959. So this is a serious grievance, Mr. Speaker, because really we are asking the people of Selkirk today, almost ten years later after the promise was given them, you're asking them today to finance this project by themselves.

The argument may be presented that this is not unfair because most communities have to do this, and this may be so, Mr. Speaker, but really the Conservative Government of this province has in fact promised to the town of Selkirk that they will enter into some agreement with them and to date I don't know what that agreement is or

I May 15, 1968 (MR. USKIW co'lt'

d) when it is forthcoming. 2059 Of course I don't think I have to remind the honourable members in this House what hap pened. On election day the headline in the local paper in Selkirk was that "Tom Hillhouse Survived Conservative Onslaught. " And it was quite an onslaught, Mr. Speaker, with those kind of promises bandied about. I was happy to see that this was the turnout because I realized that those promises were not really sincere, at least it appeared to me at that time, and today I find myself suggesting to the House that this in efiect is true.

I want to quote from the Selkirk Enterprise, May 20, 1959, and this is the day after the election. "A meeting is being arranged with Premier Roblin to discuss further a plan for bringing soft water to Selkirk. The province will proceed with election promises." Now this was a quotation from the Conservative candidate. He was giving these remarks to the news paper, and I want to know, Mr. Speaker, just what the province has done over the years or what the intention is.

I feel that seemingly they have just abandoned the whole idea and now we have the community faced with a proposal that they have to pass a money by-law which will provide for an increase in their mill rate to provide themselves with this water facility. It seems to me. Mr. Speaker, that in every election campaign we saw something of this nature in Selkirk. I can recite many examples. Here's a big headline: "Steel Industry and Technical School." We are still waiting for that one. "Industrial Development on a Big Scale for Selkirk.

" All these headlines and announcements were made coincidental with election campaigns and I have yet to see one of them fulfilled. So, Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that the House will agree with me that this is a serious griev ance and that the town of Selkirk should today not be subjected to a money by-law asking their ratepayers to increase their local taxes to bring soft water into Selkirk. I suggest, Mr.

Speakei;· that what could be considered as a solution to the problem - and I don't know whether the gov ernment has considered this - that since Selkirk is in the designated ARDA area which means that it has funds from the federal and provincial governments for industrial development, which also means that if an industry was to locate in Selkirk which required :soft water that that indus try would get a grant of up to one-third for the provision of that soft water, I'm wondering why the government hasn't provided a similar grant to the corporation, namely the town of Selkirk, to assist them in the development of a soft water treatment plant.

Mr. Speaker, I don't want to take up too much time this afternoon. These are the few remarks that I have and I feel that I must draw them to the attention of the government because they have been very negligent in this respect. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Selkirk. MR. T. P. Hll,LHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I find myself in a new role of having an additional member representing the constituency of Selkirk, but I appreciate his remarks and I appreciate the reason why he made these remarks.

I have been faced in every election that I have ever fought in the town of Selkirk, I have always been faced by government promises, and I can remember one, the big sign that hung up above the Conservative committee room in Selkirk: "Duff Promises Soft Water for Selkirk. " Well, he called a special session immediately following that election a.nd I can recall getting up in the House and asking him if he ever made such a promise or was such a promise ever made with his knowledge, privity or consent, and in a very evasive way he said no.

So then I asked him if he would be kind enough to remove the sign because for the forty days and forty nights that that sign had been up it had rained continuously and the people were fed up with soft water. The next election I ran against the Mayor of Selkirk and there was blazing headlines in the newspapers about the industries that were coming to Selkirk.

The Krupp factory was going to come, some Japanese factory was going to come, and here I was in the middle of it all know ing that all these statements were complete fabrications but unable to challenge them, because in my position of being a solicitor involved in the land assembly there, I knew they were lies but I was silenced on account of the ethics of my profession. In the last election the same little man from Wolseley comes down there and he is very very subtle in the way in which he makes his promises. He simply says to the people, now how would you like to have a pellet factory in Selkirk?

How would you like to have a vocational school in Selkirk? How would you like to have this, that and the other thing. Well now there's one way you can get that; you've got to have somebody representing Selkirk who will help to formulate the policies of the government. Very subtle, but believe me it was very effective. Now, Selkirk is getting something now, not through this government and not through the

2060 May 15, 1968 (MR. Hll..LHOUSE cont'd) • . . • • B. S. conference that the Honourable Minister of Commerce referred to, not through that at all but simply through the efforts of the three governments. It is true that the town of Selkirk is putting in a softening plant down there; it is true that they were once promised soft water; and I think that the least that the government can now do is relieve the people of Selkirk with the necessity of putting in their own softening system. They're voting on it this fall, and I rely on the good judgment of the people of Selkirk to deal with that matter as they see fit.

But I thank the Honourable Member for Brokenhead in introducing this subject. I apprec iate his help and I appreciate any help that I can get from this side of the House to convince this governrrent that it's pretty nearly time that they did something for Selkirk. They're fed up with promises. HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education) (Gimli): Will the honourable member permit a question? MR. Hll..LHOUSE: Yes, go ahead. MR. SPEAKER: I'm just wondering where this debate will take us.

There is a motion before the House, but as the question has been authorized maybe the Minister of Education could ask the question. MR. JOHNSON: Does the honourable member for Selkirk not find it quite difficult to get from Gimli to Selkirk for 45 years? MR. Hll..LHOUSE: Well, what's that got to do with it? MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the honourable member for Selkirk a question? MR. Hll..LHOUSE: Sure, go ahead. MR. SPEAKER: Having given one permission I suppose I should give another one, but that will be the last. MR.

SPIVAK: Is it true that the Manitoba Government and the Federal Government of Canada through the FRED program will be contributing $400, OOO for an industrial park? MR. Hll.. LHOUSE: That's true. My point was that your B. & S. conference had nothing to do with bringing .•• MR. SPEAKER: I wonder if I may -- I wonder if I may put the question now on the motion before the House? MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Arthur in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR.

CHAIRMAN: Committee proceed. Department of Education. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, possibly I should catch up with some questions. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, if I could just interrupt to remind the honourable members that the estimates of capital are before the Committee of Supply now, and if they would give some indication before the two hours and forty minutes have elapsed if they would like to discuss them, why we would be happy to interrupt whatever Minister is on board and have them discussed. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose): Mr. Chairman, I would very much like to discuss them.

On the other hand, !think there's still some matters outstanding in education. Does capital consideration come within the 80 -hour rule? I wonder if my hon ourable member would like to extend it insofar as the capital considerations. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to answer some questions or make some comments on some of the remarks made the other day, starting off with the honourable mem ber -- if I may.

Before I begin, possibly I should distribute to the members of the House something that came to me quite by surprise, a brochure - 60 copies of this run-down on the Institute of Applied Arts that's being constructed; the plans for it have been passed to my office, gratis, from the architect in charge of the project and I've looked through it and it gives the detailed plans of the Institute of Applied Arts. Nursing, I notice, is not shown as one of the courses included here. I imagine it was left out of the run-down here.

Otherwise, the courses planned for the Institute are all listed in here and of course the design of this school is such that courses not yet identified in our changing world can be accommodated as they arise. I wondered if, as they just arrived in my office this morning, if I could ask the Clerk during the next while to pass around copies of this to the honourable members. I think as

May 15, 1968 2061 (MR. JOHNSON cont'

d) members of the House they should have as much information as possible on this very large undertaking in the vocational area. The Honourable Member from Elmwood asked me what research was carried out, this research that is being supported in the department at the present time. As I told him, we have finally secured and hired a Director of Research who will be assuming office this summer and there's provision in these estimates for he and some staff. We also have made a grant to the Winnipeg School Division to support their extensive reading research project.

We've also granted approximately $15, OOO to the University of Manitoba this past year in four projects. And then on Page 43 of the Annual Report you will see some of the research carried out by Inspector McDonald in the department, and also some of our inspectors are working on a pro ject to determine the efficiency of language laboratories, school libraries. You must also appreciate, as he well knows, in the area of curriculum the whole staff are really engaged in development of research on a continuing basis.

As he knows, we contribute to the Canadian Council of Research and Education and Manitoba Economic Research Council . We have much invaluable research material being given to us, passed on to us by the p.eople from Ontario in the Metropolitan-Toronto area, as I mentioned, which is being analyzed and looked at in the light of Manitoba's school building program as we try to adapt our schools to the future and make sure we're building the right kind of flexible school building.

Also, of course, there's the continuing research in the examination section, and again during the past year the Univer sity Grants Commission have hired staff and are doing considerable research into w1iversity finance and diff erent aspects of their work.

Also, of course, very gra.ss roots type of on-going, continuing, practical, day-to-day research by the 400 people in our community who are sitting on advisory committees and on our technical advisory boards, and as ][ tried to indicate last night, we are the beneficiaries of national research projects and so on, so I think there's a whole host of on-going studies which are extensive. I know that he is beaming in more on the pure educational research, but in other matters this is where we hope to have the continued guidance of our man when he arrives here in July.

With respect to bursaries, the Bursary Committee advised me that it isn't necessarily marks alone. They weigh the needs and merit - which is really what a bursary is - in issuing their bursaries. They're not limited to those with higher marks particularly, but try to give the child, the young student who really needs the help, and many of these bursaries are in the areas of $500. 00; some have gone higher but they tell me this is the average of many of them. With respect to residences, there's been a gradual development of residence accommo dation.

I am advised by the Grants Commission that in the capital of that appropriation this year at the University of Manitoba - and I'm not certain of Brandon at the moment - a gradual development of residences. He's also mentioned the co-op type of student housing that's com ing into this area; one or two projects started this year.

With respect to the UMSU, I believe some of the special needs of students on campus, I think these will largely be met under pos sibly this new UMSU building which the Grants Commission also tell me certain monies are in their capital grants this year with respect to the development of that facility at the University of Manitoba. I don't know -- this general statement the Honourable Member from Elmwood dealt with that the curriculum seemed to him, as I understood it, to have little regard for the impact on the children, increasing use of tranquilizers and this sort of thing.

I would point out to him that during the past year now we have formed these curriculum councils, which I think are an excellent move, where we have a curriculum committee in a subject area reviewing the entire program.

Now that it's been developed for different grades, they'll be able to keep an over all view or perspective and change the course, or reinforce it in its weak spots from time to time, and try and build into it those suggestions and recommendations that come both from the educator and from those who have responsibility in this House, and I'm sure our people exam ine our statements very carefully to see what the public, how they're reacting and so on. I do feel that we have very excellent curriculum committees.

I think they've done a very noble job in revising so extensively the program from grades one to twelve in the past several years. I do think we have a great deal of concern for the changes that have been brought about. Of course, the reason for this, he is well aware of as a teacher, is that we have to have diff er ent courses in order to meet the particular needs, aptitudes and capabilities of diff erent types of students, and I think we have to mention again from this side the increased activity and the development of occupational entrance courses. There's now, I believe, over 4, OOO students

2062 May 15, 1968 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd) •.... in the occupational entrance program. The trainable retarded; the school divisions have done an excellent job in this area in accommodating these children within the public school system, which was mandatory as of the first of July of 1967. He has seen, along with us, the R. B.

Russell development. and in other words we are trying to build a more flexible program to meet the particular needs of the students to do away with this type - to try and keep them in the system as long as we can, not to keep them in the system as long as we can just to sit there, but to do what we can to see that every young person coming into the system leaves it on the way to something, or with a background that will lead him on to trades, technology or university.

I would just simply say to him that this use of tranquilizers of young people, I have re cently consulted and discussed with some of the top psychiatrists in this province who tell me this is not as prevalent as one would read about. I'm not that concerned. I feel that our young people are just as good today as they were in our day, and just as responsible.

I say the children generally are just as responsible today as they were in our day, and as far as tran quilizers go, I don't know how many physicians would prescribe tranquilizers for a little child but I hope there aren't too many of them without looking at the family situation at home, and maybe the teacher and a few other things that a child comes into daily contact with.

I'm not trying to under-score the impact of today's world but I think my honourable friend, who probably hasn't had the experience I've had on a personal basis with six children at home, I can advise you that children today, it's a bigger job to keep them occupied than it was in my day. We are developing more and more community outlets and more and more activities. We talk a great deal about more and more leizure time, and this is because our young people in many cases, once they're out of school they're bored.

Now they can't be getting all that pressure in school if they come home and in many cases are bored for activities. Certainly there's more to learn today than in our day and there's a different approach to it, but it's not any different in the sense that if they want to succeed at school, especially in the high schools, they've got to work; and if young people are going to go into our system and not work at their studies, they're going to run into the same problems as we did.

I don't think things have changed all that much, but I do think that the kinds of curriculum development that is going on, the different types of courses, especially now the integration of the General and the University Entrance Course moved by the Senate and the High School Examination Board in not making it absolutely neces sary for a child to hav-e a second language at this Grade 12 level - some children have had a great deal of difficulty with a second language.

We know in one sense it's a discipline and a basic requirement; in other cases it has held up students from entering university in the past; and I think this increased flexibility is good. I don't think it will lower our standards - at least that's the opinion of the best educators in the field. But I just thought I would touch on that be cause I don't share all that gross concern about the incidence of tranquilizers and so on, and the pressures that he talks about. I think it's probably more relative because you have more children in the system and all these other factors, which I think we have to consider.

With respect to the question of having something more meaningful in our schools for the people of Indian ancestry, this has come up in the House in the past.

We have had full knowl edge of, and the sympathy with this problem for a number of years, and one of our biggest holdups in introducing more understanding of the people of Indian ancestry into our curriculum and so on is, while many people bemoan the fact of a lack of Indian-oriented history, no one has been able to come up with a suitable text from that point of view, and for this reason we are introducing a series of units into the history program in the primary grades for September 1968 and subsequent years.

The Province of British Columbia is approaching it in the same way, and in this way we will take, say, one major unit selected for each grade of the regular program; for example, a unit on the Plains Indians in Grade 3, and the whole thing redesigned with the purpose of promoting a better understanding of Indian culture and social background from an Indian point of view, to assist him, or that Indian child, to better understand those aspects of the White environment that will confront him in his daily life and to assist, on the other hand, the White child to understand the social and cultural background of the Indian and his outlook.

And there are no textbooks, as my honourable friend may know, in this area, so these units will begin to be introduced this fall. I would like to say to the Honourable Member from . . . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, could I ask a question of the Minister? Could you tell me whether you've ever received any formal complaints or whether you have ever examined the

- • I May 15, 1968 2063 (MR. DOERN cont'd.) present text to see whether in fact they are discriminatory or unfair in regard to Indians? l\ffi. JOHNSON: Well, I think on one occasion this came up.

I can't put my finger on it now but this is something that our curriculum committees and our branch in the department are very concerned about, and I'm sure all members of the House share with me the concern I have daily when I turn on the television program, when we see the people of Indian ancestry placed in the role of the villian more than he-is the hero, and the same thing with many other aspects of educational activity that are debated in this House.

Every Saturday night, or every Saturday there's a program in this area and, as I indicated, we are most conscious of this insofar as the work we are doing in the department. I appreciated the presentation made by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface and can only say that we can do no less than give our continued serious consideration to the honourable member.

He know, as we all know that it was after considerable discussion over the recent years that shared services came into being, and I feel the success of this program will depend on the understanding of trustees and of both the public and private schools in making this pro gram truly operative and to make the facilities of the public school system more meaningful to the boys and girls in attendance at private schools.

With respect to the Honourable Member from Assiniboia, who I think is a fine fell ow, but the last two years now he's made a very pointed address in the House and the points he raises are always very interesting and I'm sure very valid in his mind. But the thing that bothers me is that I wish he would also mention the several wonderful services that are in his provincial riding which he hasn't made mention of.

Not to mention the MIA.A and the Manitoba Institute of Technology, not to mention the wonderful coming together of two divisions in the development of the Kirkfield Park School for the retarded which we opened last fall . . . MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. A couple of years ago I did mention those things and I thanked the Minister and the government, and I said that I certainly appreciated having the Manitoba Institute of Technology located in my constitu ency. I did say those thanks. MR.

JOHNSON: The honourable member is in the fastest-growing area in Canada and he's got the biggest public school expenditures in the history of the province going on there right now, and I just hoped he would mention it. I notice he did a few years ago but I'd appreci ate it if the honourable member mentioned it every year. In addition to the retarded school, which is a major achievement, he has a growth problem and I sympathize with the trustees out there. I would just like to say that at the end of this month, as he knows, we're opening three schools in one week.

On the drawing board is another 700-student capacity junior high school, and one of the problems, one of the reasons why the unitary system was so needed is indicated in this particular area where, when the new board took over last March, they immediately saw the need for a new school and this was approved by my office, by myself, in October.

There was some holdup in the spring and summer because of some minor misunderstanding between the projects committee and the local division, but I think they have got together and out of this will come a much better school than had originally been planned, and I think, while it may mean staggered classes for a short while which we all regret, it again shows the need for longer-range planning in the future, and I know the honourable meml:er has on his desk or in his possession the departmental bulletin which I distributed outlining the new procedures which we hope will avoid a crash type of program having to come in in our rapidly-growing areas in the future.

This was a problem of -- you can't blame anyone. The school trustees were building schools just about as fast as one can build them. Also the introduction of kindergarten was much appreciated in his area where many people coming from other centres, who had been used to this service, came here and found it wasn't offered, and many were the phone calls I know we both had in his particular area in this regard. So with all these things happening out there, I think - and you will also notice Page 13 of my comments this year - we'll be doing some further longer-range planning in his particular area of the province.

With respect to the matter of the transportation during the Centennial Caravan, I can only advise my honourable member that it's one of those things that really doesn't come under the jurisdiction of the Minister; it would have been one of those things to be dealt with by the local trustees. I, of course, wasn't aware of the situation nor do I know how I might have become aware of it, because the local people are the authority in that area. With respect to the Honourable Member from Emerson again, I would refer him to Page 6

2064 May 15, 1968 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd.) • . . . . of the curriculum bulletin which I passed around some time ago, re the availability of texts. In one of his educational kits he will see the January bulletin - curriculum bulletin - that lists all the texts that are available and will be in use, and gives all the details. These curriculum bulletins we are now sending ou t quarterly, and I think they are well prepared. They go to the teaching staffs and school boards to advise them of the several things that are happening in curriculum and to assist the teachers and trustees.

With respect to the bilingual school in Winnipeg, this would be a matter for the local division under the agreement, and no doubt is under consideration by that body. With respect to the Honourable Member from Burrows, I began to answer him last night and I was just trying to indicate of the several -- I'm almost hesitant to accept his suggestion that another independent board be established.

I just wrote down, as he was talking, about 30 lines of organizations and research areas that we are in contact with in the department, or working with on a continuing basis, and while we're always willing to listen to suggestions, communication itself is one of the greatest diff iculties these days. Maybe there's some merit in it, and we'll certain ly l::e happy to examine anything that comes forward.

But there's just been a host of activity in examination going forward in almost every aspect of our activities, all the way from the Economic Council of Canada and the federal authorities to the Departments of Labour and Manpower, through the Manitoba Economic Council, through our business com munity, as I've said earlier through our support of Manitoba and Canadian research bodies; the University is conducting research that we are supporting and then conducting their own, and so on.

With respect to the turnover of staff at the School of Dentistry, I really have not been able to determine - I haven't heard of this. It's certainly something that I can enquire about, but I have no knowledge of this. I think if the honourable member also reads the University President's report that was published, you'll see quite a few people leaving, but a very large number of people, very excellent people coming on staff in all faculties. I enquired into this and was told it was nothing unusual in a general sense. I haven't looked at any specific areas nor have I had cause to.

I know that we have again -- as you know that school is being en larged and there's been quite a bit of capital going in there in the last two years or so, and to my knowledge it's a happy ship. The only other thing I thought I would mention was with respect to the Honourable Member from Assiniboia again, when - he might not have been in the House when I spoke on the teacher supply earlier. I think it probably is in my remarks of yesterday.

I would just simply add to what I've said there, that we are training and offering as much incentive and help as we can to the development and training of more and more teachers, and we're carrying out detailed studies in the coming year of the schools and divisions that have a record of using more permit teachers than others, to try and find out any other reasons for this development and what steps may be taken.

I would also point out that the increase in permit teachers also came about because, in small part, from the fact that many of the boards took on many of these people who had been in attendance on the trainable retarded in schools, in small schools in their community, and are now taken over as permit teachers by the school boards when they assumed control; and also the definition of a permit teacher changed in the past year which involved about 80 of these who would otherwise have been on a Letter of Authority.

And I can assure the members of the House, when I compare our situation with other provinces it's pretty hard to compare, because everybody is trying to get away from the use of the word "permit" and you don't know what a Letter of Authority means from one province to the other. We give a Letter of Authority only to the graduate who takes the twelve-weeks course and to the person who at least has one half of their teacher training completed. They have to have at least half of their training before they get a Letter of Authority.

Other jursidictions, I under stand, have similar problems to us in every sense, and of course any suggestions that will assist in doing more and more in this area, we're only too happy to hear of them, but I think the several measures we are taking are on the record. Well, I think that may start off this afternoon's proceedings, Mr. Chairman. I'll be happy to answer further questions that may be asked. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I haven't participated yet in the discussion of the esti mates of the Department of Education which I consider to be probably the most important in sofar as the province.

There are a number of items which I would like to cover. At the out set, the Minister stated in his comments this afternoon that he didn't think that the young people

.. I I May 15, 1968 2065 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd.) ..•.. today were any worse than we were in our day. Mr. Speaker, I'm an optimist.

I think they're a lot better than we were in our day, and when I look around and see, for example, the young men who serve us here as page boys and think of their inter est, when I look at the group that appeared before us in the front of the buildings here some three weeks ago now and the way they presented themselves to us, when I consider the march of last Saturday and see what young people can do which I don't think we were really prepared to do or maybe weren't aggressive enough to do in our day, I think that things are improving and that we can do a lot better still than we are doing.

I was a little concerned, Mr. Chairman, by some of the comments made by one honour able member here a couple of days ago which got considerable publicity - and I hasten to say at the start that normally my comments are addressed to speeches on the far side of the House; on this occasion I must refer to comments made by a member from this side of the House al though not from my Party. And this is by no means a criticism of the member but I think the question must be made in the interests of what is really going on in the Province of Manitoba. The member spoke about Operation Head Start.

Now this has been discussed in the House in past years, and the story that appeared in the newspapers, the headline is: "Head Start Urged for Slum Children." And the speaker, the Member for Elmwood. suggested that this is something that was needed and that it was a lack of equality, and suggested that the program should begin in Winnipeg on a small, experimental and voluntary basis - and got considerable coverage over it. Well my concern here, Mr.

Chairman, is that in fact this is going on in Winnipeg, and I think it's very important that this be emphasized because I have since received complaints from people who are involved in this program and who feel that this type of story is harmful to those who are putting in a great deal of volunteer work in that very type of program.

My understanding is that this program has been going on for three years now in Winnipeg, sponsored by the Volunteer Bureau of Greater Winnipeg, and is done, by volunteers strictly, at nursery and kindergarten levels with the co-operation of school boards and principals and teachers, and they call it the School Volunteer Program.

It's presently effective in some ten schools and there are 24 volunteer workers involved in this, and the results so far, as far as I can find out, have been most encouraging, Now it's true that this is not easy work and that the people who are doing this maybe don't see much result from their own work each day, and this is why I hasten to correct the impression that was given, that nothing was being done in this area - and I'm not taking here the position of the Minister, protecting him, because it's not being done by him. It's being done by a completely volunteer agency.

But the very fact that they are volunteers, I think emphasizes all the more the importance of recognizing their contribution and making sure that it is appreciated; and indications that nothing is being done simply discourages or tends to discourage them from further work. I think it's a good pro gram. I had mentioned it some years ago to the Minister after having studied some of the things being done in the Americari areas in particular, and I'm happy that it's proceeding here and successful. Mr.

Speaker, I've recommended to the Minister on many occasions in the past that we o•.ight to take completely new looks at education, and I'm disappointed every year when the Minister turns dov.11 our proposal that we should have a committee of the House to study educa tion. I'm not going to revive that today because I know it's against the rules to do so. I only bring that in, Mr. Chairman, to show that I think the Minister must open his eyes and ears and his whole approach to the question much more than he's been prepared to do so.

And by and large, the Minister is an individual who is prepared to take new looks at things. But I don't think that he's quite going as far as he could and should in this area, and that were he to agree to such a committee we would have the possibility of getting many new ideas and getting further along, I think, in changing our education process. Mr. Chairman, we've got to be prepared to change much more rapidly than we have in the past, and some of our old ideas about what was the right thing to do, I simply think we have to look at them again.

Not change for the sake of change but quite prepared to make changes if we see a better way of doing things and not being afraid to experiment, not being afraid to move along. And I have the feeling that here in Manitoba we have not been prepared to move along as we should. We've discussed previously the technical school situation, for example, and Manitoba was far behind other provinces. I've pointed out in the past in this House on many occasions how towns right close to us in Ontario, like Kenora and Fort Frances and Dryden and these

2066 May 15, 1968 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd.) . . . . . towns, small towns by comparison to the City of Winnipeg, for example, or even other cities like Brandon or Thompson, where they had composite technical vocational schools some years ago paid for in large part by the Federal Government

whereas Manitoba had not moved along in this field. Well, there's another area - and this again has been discussed in the House before - and that's the area of community colleges, and just last night, Mr. Speaker, in the Winnipeg Tribune there is this story under the provincial news item. "College Opens in Fall. " And this is datelined Kenora (Special). "The Confederation of Applied Arts and Technology will commence programs in Kenora September 23rd.

Confed eration is one of nineteen new community colleges set up by the Ontario Department of Educa tion operating under its own Board of Governors throughout Northwestern Ontario. The com munity colleges offer courses not suited to secondary school. They also meet the needs of graduates of secondary school programs apart from those wishing to attend university and the needs of adults and out-of-school youth. Three full-time day programs are being offered. They are Social Services, Secretarial Arts, and General Business. " There we have, Mr.

Chairman, once again the Province of Ontarib, in that very area of Ontario right next to us, proceeding along according to this with some nineteen new community colleges, and the Province of Manitoba has not yet really looked at this situation. We're still depending, Mr. Chairman, on the two main streams for post-secondary education: the aca demic, those who end up in university, and the other one, the technical schools for those who are either not interested in the academic areas or have some specialized skills which they want to develop.

But there are many of those in between who simply don't fit into either cate gory. There are many adults who don't fit into either category at this stage and can't enter either field, and in any case in both fields the prerequisites for entering in many cases prevent people who have talent, who have possibility, who could be developed, but the prerequisites prevent them from going along. Now the Minister says that we're becoming more flexible. Mr. Chairman, we've got to become a lot more flexible than we have been.

In our technical schools, when I see some of the courses, some basic elementary courses in many cases - I remember the ones which used to be held. for example, for butchers and so on, where we insisted on certain grades which had no bearing whatever on what needed to be done. Well, we're still hamstrung, in my opin ion, in many areas by these prerequisites. Well, the community college is the way around that. It's a way of tying in the adult education, those who have dropped out in previous years along with those who don't fit into either of the two mainstreams now.

In the Province of Ontario, once again they're moving ahead of us, Mr. Chairman, and I suggest to the Minister that we should be looking at this. This is why again, if he was prepared to have a committee where we could get representations, all of the members of the House would benefit from the knowledge which we could gain in those areas. And while we're on the subject of flexibility, Mr. Chairman, when I say that we have to do a lot more in this area I think that the Minister has to look at the whole structure again, the whole structure of exams. Are we accomplishing anything by the present system?

I recall last summer that one of the things that happened is that we virtually prevented certain students from going on because they couldn't get their marks on time to enter courses. Isn't it time that we mqyed along to simply a university entrance exam? Let it not be simply a straight academic exam; let it be as well a general interest and a general proficiency exam. Wouldn't tbis suit the purposes better than having the exams that we now attempt to have at the high school level?

Isn't this something that should be looked at so that an individual who has the mental capacity to benefit from university would be entitled to go, not simply on the basis of an exam which he has written? In this area, Mr. Chairman, I can give you a specific case and it's an example because this recurs every year. This particular case is of a young lady. It doesn't happen to be a university course; it happens to be another type of course. What she was interested in be coming was an X-ray technician.

This young lady came to me on the first of August of 1967 and here is the story she told me about her two problems. During the year 1964-65 she had attended Grade 12. It was a regular school year. She passed every exam in her Grade 12 with the exception of Grade 12 English, in which she got 44 percent. This meant that she didn't have a clear Grade 12 and couldn't proceed to university, but she was accepted in the X-ray technician's course because at the time that she went to take the course her marks weren't out yet and they didn't know that she hadn't passed Grade 12

• • May 15, 1968 �067 (MR, MOLGAT cont'd. ) , , , , , English. She got into the course. By this time they said, "Well you can continue the course and write it off as a suppleme ntary and we'll let you pro ceed. " So in August of 1965 she wrote the exam again as a supplementary exam, and she got 45 percent. Well, the X-ray people de cided to let her continue and she could take it during the winter and write it off the following spring. She took the course on her own during the winter, wrote in June of 1966, and obtained 30 percent.

Neve rtheless, having at that stage spent one year in the X-ray technician's course they were good enough to keep her on. She wrote it again in the fall of 1966 as a supplem ental, and had 36 percent. The course people neverthe less kept her on because by this time she had over a year in the X-ray course. She took it during the following winter by correspondence; in June of 1967 when she wrote it, she again had a failure mark of 37 percent. Five attempts to get the course, Mr. Chairman.

An intel ligent young lady, not by any means a poor student; she passed every other course, But for some reason or other she cannot apparently pass this English course. By this time, Mr. Chairman, she had completed her X-ray technician's course. They were prepared to accept her as an X-ray technician. She had all the qualifications of an X-ray technician, but she couldn 't obtain her certificate because she couldn't pass Grade 12 English. Does it make any sense, Mr. Chairman ?

Is there any reason that a student of that typ e should be prevented, af ter having proved that she can pass the technical course, that because she can't pass Grade 12 English we are going to deny her the right to take and get a pass mark in a technical course which every other requirement she has covered ? Well, the Minister can say, "We h3.ve to have standards and we have to have discipline. But, Mr, Chairman, isn't it time that we had a new look at our standards and our discipline ? Is it required for a nurse to know every thing about trigonometry and algebra?

Wouldn't we be much better off to have more flexibility so that the students, if they have the mental capacity to go to something else, can do so? Mr. Chairman, this is repeated. I gave this one instance because I think it's such a clear- cut case, but this is repeated time after time and year after year, Every year, after the results of the exams come out, I have people come to my office here in the buildings and say to me, "What can I do ?" I have parents who phone me up and say, "I can't understand it. My child has done eve rything she possibly can and yet she appar ently cannot pass this course.

" And there's one course in particular, Mr. Chairman, where this happens I think most frequently, and tha t's the French course as taught, up to now, in the Province of Manitoba. Far from being a course that has taught people any Fr ench, far from being a course that has enthused any people about learning French, it's so far been a course that dis couraged people from taking it. And I think that we have to scrap completely our outlook in regards to the teaching of langua ges, and particularly the teaching of Fren ch, in this province, I think what we need to have is communication.

As there 's a problem in Canada between English and French it's largely a problem of commu nication, and if both groups could simple understand each other, even if they didn't know the grammar down to every detail, but if there could be communication we'd be going much further in improving our relationships. But at the moment, the course as given in Manitoba dis courages people; it annoys them and it turns them against lear ning the language. And yet there are possibilities, Mr. Chairman, of doing much better in this area. I say to the Minister: let's have much more flexibility.

Let's get away from the old ideas and let's get a brand new look at things. And this applies, Mr. Chairman, I think to the teaching of all languages because I think we can do much more in Manitoba in this field. I think we have a golden opportunity in this province in the very fact that we have such a mixture of people in Manitoba. And let's teach the languag es, let's teach them on a conversa tional basis. Mr. Chairman, there is here, I think, a great opportunity, not just for Manitoba but for Ca nada as a whole.

The very fact that we have people from all areas of the world here gives us access equally to all areas of the world. It puts us in the position of communication with many areas of the world be cause of the very nature of our country, the fact that we are accepted in many other areas. We don't have a colonial ba ckground. If we were to exploit . these possibilities, Canada could do much more in world areas from the standpoint of under standing, from the standpoint of co-operation.

From a purely selfish Canadian standpoint we could do much more for ourselves on the basis of trade, communications and building up our own country. And lastly, Mr. Chairman, I want to cover the area of education TV. At the very

2068 May 15, 1968 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd. ) . . . . . beginning of this Session, one of the speakers on the far side of the House, on seconding the address in reply to the Speech from the Throne, stated that we were spending too much on education, that his recommendation was we should cut down the expenditures. Well, I don't think there's any possibility that that's going to happen, Mr. Chair man, and I can't subscribe to the approach that he took to it.

But I can say this, that there's a great deal of concern in the people in the province right now about the costs of education, and that unless we make it clear to the people of Manitoba that we are in fact going to do everything we can to get full value for the money spent in education, unle ss we can convince them of that, there will be a growing dissatisfaction amongst the people in this province about the rising education costs. And the danger in that, Mr.

Chairman, is that there may well be growing pressure on the government to cease programs that should not be cut off, to curtail areas of expenditures in education which are badly needed, and to fal ter on the development of our edu cation program. So what is needed here is that every case is made for efficiency in our educa tional system, for using our education dollars to the best value possible.

In this area I think that education TV is one of those areas where we could do a better job, where with some initial expenditure admittedly, but in the long run, by substantial savings provide better education opportunities for our people and particularly more equality of opportunity for our people, where we could equalize the difference which still exists between rural and urban, and where we could provide much better tool s to our educators. Now I know the Minister's going to say, "Well there's an initial cost. " That's true. I agree to that.

But the initial costs, I think, can be far offset by the eventual improvements and the savings which can occur, which won't occur if we don't start moving very soon. In this regard I was very interested in what the Deputy Minister had to say some months ago to Ottawa, but I think we have to push much harder in this area.

I wonder if within the province we coul dn't do something in setting up a volunte er committee dealing strictly with this area of education TV, using the people who are within the department, using people who are in the industry, people who are directly involved in the TV industry, using members of this House, possibly, who would be prepared to co-operate on a volun teer basis, and really make a push in this area, Mr. Chairman, because again, the tendency is that we drag along ; we wait; we wait for someone else to do something; we let other people get in ahead of us.

And the oppor tunities are there, in my opinion, but they'll only be there if we take advantage of them, and it's up to us to move along. So from two standpoints - the one of cost, and more important still, the one of equal ity of opportunity in the improvement of education - I urge the Minister to move along in this area, take every step possible. If setting up a committee can be of assistance; I can guarantee him insofar as we are concerned, we have people who woul d be prepared to co-operate and assist in every way we can. So, Mr. Chairman, I say to the Minister: open up wider, Mr. Minister.

Be prepared to look at new ideas completely. I have nothing against the educators, but be prepared to ac cept views as well from other areas. Get involved in this education process for the general public, not just the special ists. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, the education critic of the New Demo cratic Party was good enough to give me half a minute - I promise. I just want to tell the Minister of Education that I might have been absent, out of the House - I don't think so, but he hasn't answered the proposition that I made on this shared services, has he ? Oh, I'm sorry then. I'll find it in Hansard. MR.

MOLGAT: He may not have answered it in that .. A MEMBER: You've stil got 20 seconds. MR. DESJARDINS: I've still got 20 second. If I have 20 seconds I might say that if it is not satisfactory I won't have a chance to come at him, and I want to warn the Minister that I will be introducing a resolu tion next year on this if it's not to my satisfaction. MR. OOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have listened with great interest to the comments of the Leader of the Opposition when he attempted to give me some information about the nursery schools and the kind of schools that I was talking about the other day.

I might point out to him that I am aware of the fact that there are some voluntary organizations in schools in this area but I think that it's the old problem of what controls are there on these school s; what kind of a job are they doing. Do they have adequate financial resources and staff, and what kind of programs are they actually offering? We have various baby-sitting agencies, for

May 15, 1968 2069 (MRo DOERN cont'd. ) . . . . . example, We have people who operate all kinds of kindergartens in the Metro area of varying quality. Cost is a big fact or. The kind of program that I'm talk ing about is what I think requires the resources and the backing and the control of the Depart ment of Education in order to make sure that it was properly handled.

I notice also, with some interest, that the Leader of the Opposition tells the Minister that he should expand his programs, expand his horizons, more flexibility and more variety at the same time when the Member for Emerson seems to be going in the opposite direction and seems to be call ing for a reduction of courses and a reduction of this and a reduction of ex penses, so there seems to be a bit of disagreem ent the re. -- (Interje ction) - Reduced waste. Well, that's a good slogan. I would li ke to ask the Minister if he could give us a brief comment about the pres ent situation in regard to St.

Paul's and St. John's Co llege on campus. They are apparently now integrated with the Univers ity of Manitoba, and as I unde rstood it some years ago and as I understand it today, it is largely due to financial problems that they have had to re-integrate for possible fear of going under. There 's no question that to be in the business of education you're in one of the most expensive areas of all. If it is true that St.

Paul's and St. ·J ohn's were suffering financially, then I wonder whether the Minister is going to re-examine this whole question of allowing and supporting new colle ges, because I think we'll have to be care ful here in the sense that we don't want to recognize new universities and make additional ex pansions if at the same time we're going to have failures and cutbacks, so I wonder if he could give us some information on just what went on.

I'd like to turn briefly to the two main high school courses, the Uni versi ty Entrance and the General Course, and to note that from 1966-67 the Universi ty Entrance Course had some 41, OOO students a year ago, and in 1967 they accounted for some 38, OOO, a reduction of about 3, OOO, where the Gen eral Course went from about 5, OOO to about 7, 800 - almost up 3, OOO.

Again, I woul d like to ask the Minister whether the government has a general aim in terms of per centages; whether there's any distinct attempts; whether there are any guidel ines; whether they believe, for example, it should be a 50-50 proposi tion or, as many teachers tend to be lieve and I think that one of your deputies was once quoted as saying, that the Univers ity Entrance Course was geared for 20 percent of the student population. If so, then I'd like to know whether the government feels it's doing enough to reach that objective.

Perhaps he could outline some of the improvements and advances made in the Gene ral Course. I know they are attempting to get more recognition at the universi ty level and I think this is a step in the right direction. . .. in 1969 in the fall you'll be able to enter universi ty with three Univers ity Entrance Courses and two Gene ral, that's a step in the right direction. I would like to know, as well , whether anything has been done in regard to the high school students in Grade 12, and whether or not there's any attempt on the part of the Department of Education to handle the students differently.

Let me go back to a year or two ago when there was Grade 12 and there was First Year Universi ty, which was its direct equivalent, so a stu dent could either go from Grade 11 to univers ity or take Grade 12 and go to second year. Now they've changed the system and now you have to take your Grade 12 in high school and then go into what is then First Year Univ ersi ty and take three years. Well, 1he question is this.

Some of these students are a li ttle older and a li ttle maturer, and I don't notice any diffe rence in terms of whether or not these students have any more freedom, whether they have any more choice, whether they have any special library privileges, whether they have any special rights such as common rooms and so on, because a lot of students used to go from Grade 11 to uni versi ty to get out of the high school system, to have more freedom and more flexibility. Now they're all forced to remain within the high school system.

I want to know what is being done, if anything, to accommodate them, because I get the impressi on that there has been very little. Instead of an expansion and a new program, new variety, it' s just that they've been crammed in and they're doing the same things as the Grade 10s and Grade 11s. I'm interested also in the annual awards, the gold medal awards that are given out every year for the highest marks. Are these medals -- apparently there were 13 given out last year and the Minister, I guess, pinned them on the students. Are these only given for senior ma tric ulation ?

Are General Course students eligible for them? Because either there is a strict limit to the Univ ers ity Entrance Co urse or else it just always happens that the ones who re ceive them tend to be within the Universi ty Entrance Course. If it's open to all the courses, fine; if not, then I wonder why the other courses don't get better representation. Perhaps we

2070 May 15, 1968 (MR. OOERN cont'd. ) • . . • • should have separate medal s for the various courses, but the present system seems to be heavily geared to the U. E. students. Mr. Chairman, I al so wanted to deal with educational television, perhaps not so much as in the future as to what is being done now, and perhaps some of the things that are not being done now or some of the things which should or could be corrected.

There's unquestionably an increasing use of educational television but I think at the same time, hand in hand, there's also a distinct abuse of the media, and I would li ke to say as a compliment to the Minister and to the government that the Visual Education Branch, the Department of School Broadcasts, is an excellent one and undoubtedly I think one of the finest in the country, so we don't criticize the govenment but rather commend them for their attempts at improving educational television and the use of radio.

But, for example, the University of Manitoba is now using television for lec ture purposes, and there are of course certain advantages to this, but apparently from read ing student publications in the press and talking to people, apparently if you only have a pro gram where you have a large television screen and a large number of students, this can be quite deadly. It may save money but it can be dehumanizing, and one of the problems is that you can't ask the professor questions; and the other point is, it may not be good enough always to just have a senior graduate student there - if you have anybody there.

The students at St. John's College, for example, were not very much impressed with what was going on on campus just a few hundred yards away, and they voted overwhelmingly they don't want television in their coll ege or university. There are problems involved. One of the problems appears to be that you have to at the same time try to darken the room so that you can see the TV screen and yet have enough light in which to take lec ture notes. So on various surveys, one student opinion survey indicated that 70 percent were against television, 20 percent neutral , and 10 percent li ked it.

On another survey, about half seemed to prefer live lec tures while only 20 percent preferred television. So the question is this. Are we using the television facilities we have in the university and some of the facilities that are used in the public school system, particularly in Winnipeg, to the best advantage? Because televis ing a straight le cture is about the worst possible way you can use the medium, and I'm afraid that it's all too common; it's sort of home movies ap proach.

And if you lo ok at articles and if you look at the kind of TV that we're doing in the university and at the school level, you always see the technician. It's always some other teacher, or it's a student, and I don't think that we're using the cameras and the medium properly. If we're going to go into it - and we are into it already, particularly on campus; for example, we're going to be instructing at least 1, OOO and up to 3, OOO students next year - then I think we're going to have to go into having television producers, directors and techni cians.

We're not playing with home movies here; we're playing with thousands of people spend ing their time instead of having a professor having a television lec ture, so it must be done properly; otherwise you wind up with comments like this; an art student saying, "I don't mind them at all; they're conclusive to slee p, " and to people not going to them, thus people skip out on them

whereas they would go to a li ve lec ture. So I'm happy that we're using television in our school broadcasts and in the university and in schools, and I also notice that Manitoba, the government, has made a proposal to the Broad casting Committee that they want something like three hours a morning of educational tele vision and they tal k even in the long run of going further. I think this is an area we have to go into and we're making a start right now. In Britain, for example, they're going into an open university through television - - the Labour Government is sponsoring that.

And we're also using video tape recordings in the Faculty of Education, etc. One danger area I might point out to the Minister is this. There are all kinds of equip .ment availabl e. There's various Japanese and American and other types of machines. And they went into this in Alberta and I think made a considerable mistake; they allowed the vari ous schools to buy their own equipment and the problem is they bought different sizes and dif ferent makes, and they now wind up renting CBC equipment and dubbing tapes, which costs about $50. 00 a tape to dub.

This is a needless expenditure a:nd I think the department should keep an eye on whether or not they're going to have a standard make and model, otherwise we'll fall into this same problem. Another thing I'd like to mention in regard to the audio-visual area is that the department is continually emphasizing audio-visual aids but there are often complaints made about film shortages and lon g waits. Teachers who want films on science and history and other topics

May 15, 1968 207 1 (MR. DOERN con t'd. ) . . • . . and so on, make their application but they have to wait some times weeks or months. Also, I' m told that this occurs in health education. People applying for films are unable to get them within a reasonable period of time. And I would urge the Minister to make sure that the department has sufficient funds in that area. There are some brilliant movies and television plays available.

I wrote the department last year and suggested a couple of them, in particular one of the greatest films I've every seen called, "Culloden" - on the battle of Culloden - in British history, which won a numb er of awards. Well, Mr. Speaker, I'll stop at that point and possibly mention something later. MR. SHOEM AKER: Mr. Chairman, I have been in and out quite a bit this afternoon but I was wondering whether or not the Minister could advise the committee of the number of special schools in the province.

I think he understands what I mean by the term "sp ecial school", that is, the Hutterite schools and all the special schools. And then the number of qualified teachers that are teaching in the special schools. I was told by a teacher. the other day that there were only eleven, I think she said, qualified teachers in the special schools. Now the question of course is : how many special schools are there? If there are only eleven, well then that's one per school.

And my honourable friend the Minister referred to "White Paper" the other day and we get a White Paper every year, and two years ago, February 1966, we got what was called "Proposal for Phase II of the Educational Revolution in the Province of Manitoba, " and I guess that could be termed a White Paper of 1966; and on Page 4 of that revolutionary White Paper, I quote: "Vocational secondary schools, each being large enough to offer an adequate number in variety of specialized programs, must be developed.

The required numb er of these des tined for operation by combinations of divisions will be built by the province in the next five years. Where necessary, residence space will be provided in these schools. " Now the inference is that five years from February, 1966, the ten promised vocational schools would be built, so that would then mean by February, 1970 at the latest, at the very latest, these ten schools would be built.

On Page 6 of the same White Paper, under the head ing Academic High Schools, second paragraph, it says : "Only under very exceptional circum stances will the Minister authorize the construction of small high schools, and it is unlikely that authority will be granted for the cons truction of any more school accommodation until the question of centralized fiscal authority has been determined for that division, " and then goes on to talk about the vocational schools.

And as I said last year, it was understandable that if it was a fact that the building of these ten promised vocational schools could siphon off, well, this White Paper says from 25 to 50 percent of the secondary school population, that you would want some control over building constructio ns. It says here, "It is expected that from 75 to 40 percent of Manitoba's high school population will eventually enter vocational secondary schools. " Has this policy changed at all? Does my honourable friend still believe that the ten vocational schools will be built, as he says they must in the next five years ?

Does he still be lieve that is so, and does he still believe that up to 40 or 50 percent of the pres ent high school population will eventually enter vocational secondary schools? MR. CHA.IBMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. EDWARD L DOW (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Chairman, I have a short question to ask the Minister in regards to the curriculum that's being proposed for this fall.

I have had sev eral complaints and several inquiries in regards to the Canadian history course in our junior and senior high schools in which the information is that, starting the first of September, there will be no Canadian history taught in Grades 9 and 10, and in Grade 11 there will be an expanded course of Canadian history which will cover only the Canadian history since Confederation. Without the comprehensive course in Canadian history to cover the exciting years up to Con- · federation, I feel that this could be somewhat meaningless and uninteresting.

Also, with the students dropping out in Grades 9 and 10, they, becom ing the future citizens of Canada, would have a scant background of Canadian life on which to base their partici.pation in our democracy. Also, if this change goes into effect, my understanding is that Manitoba will be the only prov ince in Canada which does not have a course in Canadian history at the junior high school level. I' m wondering if the Minister would care to comment on that recom mendation or if it's true that the Curricula Com mittee has so recommended it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M.

FROESE (Rhin·eland): Mr. Chairman, I too wish to thank the Honourable Minister for the answers that were given the other day in reply to some of the questions that I

2072 May 15, 1968 (MR. FROESE cont'd. ) . . . . . put to him earlier. However, there are certain some areas that I am not completely satisfied with and also some other points that I would like to raise. He replied to the matter on the basis of on which the university grants were being calculated and the increase that has been afforded to these universities. However, I don't think he gave us the amounts, and if we could have the amounts I think it would be of value bec ause this would give us some idea as to the comparison of assistance that they were getting in previous years, including capital.

This would apply to the University of Manitoba, the University of Winnipeg, and Brandon or Western University as it is called. Then, I would also like to refer to1he operations of the Public School Finance Board. We have their statement and this is their first statement as of December 31s t, 1967 , and we find the financial statement contained on Page 7. We find here that of the revenue that the Board has received, $48, 199 , OOO representing the 65 percent share of the Foundation Program re ceived from the Province of Manitoba. Then there is a further item of $24, 108, OOO from municipal corporations.

I take it that this is the amount that is being collected through the general levy, and if I'm not correct I hope the Minister corrects me on this. Now, does the Public Finance Board deal directly with the municipalities on this, or just how is the operation carried on? When we were in Public Accounts earlier this year I ques tioned I think Mr. Iliffe the Comptroller, or Auditor - Comptroller-General and -- no Mr.

McFee, I think it is now, and he informed us at that time that the whole grand total of the grants was transferred over to the Public School Finance Board, and here I find this particular item of $24 million, and I'm just wondering whether they are dealing with the Public School Board, Finance Board directly. Then too, in connection with the Finance Board, I would like to hear more about their operations. The budgets are being referred to them by the divisions ; and how many referrals were there made and for what purposes ? I think these are items that would be of interest.

Also, by what amount were they actually cut down. As far as I know, when the Board was set up this was to be one of their jobs to hold the costs in line, and certainly it would be of interest to know whether any cuts were made and what cuts were made, if any. And also in connection with capital requirements, what is the situation here" Were there remarkable costs on require ments ? Were there refusals ? And also, where does the Projec ts Committee enter into this whole matter here ?

Because, as I understand it, matters of this type are referred to the Projects Committee and they have a say as to what will be done. Bec ause I have a complaint to make in this respect, that we have had rural school districts wanting to make improvements in their schools, in their facilities, and they were denied this, and I felt that the matters they were asking for were very reasonable and were certainly quite in order.

They were such items as bringing in new washroom or toilet facilities and so on, and other improvements that they were asking for - and certainly they were willing to pay their share - and the amount of grant for such capital purposes to these districts in non-unitary divisions is only 40 perce nt. So it is in the first place much smaller than other divisions, and here they were being denied making these improvements. And I would like to know the reason why this is done. Is it just the pressure being put on that these schools are not to be improved and just are supposed to go by the board?

I feel that this is a very wrong attitude to take if that is the case, because our school facilities, in whatever divisions or whatever administrations they are, they should be kept up-to-date and improved when necessary so that children need not suffer in any way re gardless under what type of an administration they are. Then, too, does the new, this provincial Finance Board make advances under the budgets to these divisions and schools at an earlier date as in the past?

This has been one of the big complaints over the years that schools, district boards made up their budgets and it took until November until they got their first cheques or any monies from the authorities that were sup posed to distribute them, and I' m just wondering whether this is being corrected now and whether there is any consideration being given and whether advances are made at an earlier date. Then on another point, in connection with the technical-vocational schools, I know this has been pointed out that this is a matter for the Boundaries Commission to decide.

However, if the division boards of a given area are interested in promoting the idea and trying to work for it, what is the proper pro cedure ? Do they go to the Boundaries Commission or where do they go to in order to promote the matter? Which is the proper way of doing things ? And I would appeal to the government of the province that a school of this type be placed in the south central

May 15, 1968 2073 (MR. FROE SE cont' d. ) . . . . . part of the province at an early date. I've made this appeal for seve ral years now and I think it's high time that something be done in this particular area to provide this particular service.

Ce rtainly we have enrollment sufficient to bring in schools of this type, and it would be of benefit to the people and to the students in the area so that they could have these services in much more close proximity, not have to go to the Winnipeg schools, to l\UT or some of the other trade schools, but to get these facilities locally and thereby be more apt to get this particular training. Because of the be ing away from home, naturally some of the students will not be able to get this type of service, and if it was pro vided locally they would more likely get this type of education and training.

I would like to support what the Honourable Member for Lakeside mentioned the other day in connection with this particular textbook used in the Grade 7 classes. I know the Min ister knows all about this and we've had private discussions, and I notice from the report that on Page 73 it mentions here: "As in previous year s, " and I'm quoting, "curriculum matters played a prominent

part in Board discussions. A total of 76 new texts was recommended for general authorization in 1967 -68 and the accompanying programs were approved for use in schools. " This refers to the Advisory Board report and no doubt they gave some thought and must have given their approval to these texts, and I do hope that this new Board - that we are appointing a new board under the new Bill that is before us - that they will give closer con sideration to this matter especi ally to texts of the kind that we are mentioning, and that some thing may come about. Mr.

Chairman, these are a few points that I had to raise or wanted to raise. However, I have to come back to one other item and that has to do with the grants that are being made to the non-unitary divisions because I am not satisfied with what these schools and these districts are getting at the present time. We need a change in policy as far as the grant system in this province is conce rned, in that we should not discri minate as we are doing at the pres ent time.

I mentioned this the other day and I appeal to the Minister once more and to the govern ment, to bri ng about a change and to be more just and give the peo ple in the non-unitary divisions their just share of the tax money that they 'r e providing for the services of education in this province. We should not be disc riminating as we are doing, and this is outright discr imina tion as far as I can see it, because just because they refus ed a certain type of administration that they should be penalized for it the way they are pres ently done.

I hope the Minister can give us some more and better information on this and that he might provide more ass istance to these groups. And unless something is coming forward, I would have to be bound to ask for other consideration. MR. CHAIBMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerso n) : Mr. Chairman, I just have one more question to ask the Minister, not in the form of criticism. About two weeks ago I met with a few principals in the City of Winnipeg and at the same time there was a princ ipal from the rural areas, and at that time we discussed the feasibility of mobile school units.

Lately we have heard through the news media a little bit about it. At this time, not knowing the feasi bility or not knowing the costs or anything, I am not prepared to recommend it but I think there is quite a bit of merit in this and I would like to hear the views of the Minister on this. I think that in certain instances it would be quite a help, espe cially in the rural areas, in cases of kindergarten classes which are staggered. You could have a kindergarten class in one area, say, in the morning and the same mobile unit probably could move to a diff erent area in the af ternoon; next day to some other area.

At prese nt there are many areas that hold these schools only about once or twice a week. I would imagine this would help. Another area where it could help, probably a mobile unit with fully-equip ped sci ence facilities in it. That may help. And it may also help in other studies which could not be af forded in smaller schools. I would like a comment from the Minister on this.

2074 May 15, 1968 MR. JOHNSON: Well, Mr. Speaker , if I may attempt to answer some of these questions . To deal with the Honourable Member from Emerson on mobile school units. Our pattern in Manitoba, we have found it much easier to utilize these locally-b uilt temporary housing units that can easily be sold. You know, they 're built like a home, as the honourable member knows as class rooms, temporary class rooms , and there are no walls in them, and they can later be sold at very little loss in money.

This is being found to -- they can build these in many parts of the province; they're the most economical over all. We' ve looked into the kind of mobile class rooms he 's talking about and found these much more economical for Manitobans and for the divisions in a cost sense. However, we're looking at it more closely, especially with respect to the pos sibility of these being used in the future in co nnection with manpower and upgrading programs in isolated areas , the mobile type of unit.

This has rec eived consider able attention from us in the last year and they're still doing some work on it in that division. I'm sorry the Leader of the Opposition is not in the House because I would like to have started with him the -- I'm sure the Member from Lakeside will convey my sentiments.

The problem is that - and I say this as forthrightly and so on - that I may be a bit of a rebel in agreeing and I would have to defer to the consideration in the coming years to the Member from Lakeside who has a longer experience than anyone in this House, on the pos sibility of the business of the House being changed in some way and modernized to make it more possible for members of the House to become more fully acquainted with the operations of such a large department as Education where changes about us , where things are happening so fast .

I can assure you it is a heavy responsibility for the administration in carrying forward this , and sometimes difficult in a few hours to articulate it. However , I think it would involve the general rules of the House rather than specifically the Department of Education, and maybe that should be looked at. But I apprecia ted the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition because what he was saying was largely what we'v e been attempting to do, and I think have made a significant advance.

Whereas he talks about there only being two streams in Manitoba, either the academic going to university or the academic going to the technical school, the whole objective of the department in curricu lum development has been to develop these alternative patterns designed to better suit the aptitudes and the particular direction the child wants to go, the student . For example, and I'm not in any way detracting from the educational program in Ontario, but they do not have the General Course as we have it.

They were busily engaged in developing their vocational high school pro gram before they developed their MIT post sec ondary type of complex; and on our side of the fence we were busily engaged in bringing about consolidation and unitary division so we could get overall planning within a region, and Ontario and these other provinces had largely completed this task. We were quite far behind in the development of our -- away behind in the development of our high school pattern through out the province.

We only had divisions in 1958; in '6 1 we were still completing some of those buildings throughout the provinc e and we couldn't spend the same dollar twic e, but we did move immediately. The previous Minister moved immediately in '6 1 to develop the beginnings of the MIT , and the Manitoba Institute of Technology and the Manitoba Institute of Applied Arts have all the elements of a community college. They have the academic and general studies built into these programs.

The Confederation College that we're familiar with in the Kenora - it's the Kenora-Fort William MIK, MIT , MIAA, and they have been agonized in that province at the post-sec ondary level as we are agonizing in the development of our vocational high school pattern, and I think we don't take a back seat to anyone in the kinds of facilities we'v e developed at these areas , in these three regions of the province, which certainly will contain all the elements of the schools such as Confederation College .

The other thing, throughout these other provinces - and I'v e reviewed them very care fully and I'm not trying to make any apologies because, as I say, we couldn't spend the same dollar twic e - in these other areas , take Kenora for example, 11, OOO population draining into that sch ool, and they can have a 1, OOO-student capacity high school. There's no problem, there 's no problem really, where you have the numbers of students.

The problem is the sparsity and our geography in Manitoba, and to bring about a provincial-wide program that gives equal attention and a basic program that can fit the province has been one of the great difficulties. But I' ll reiterate when the Leader of the Opposition is here that, generally speaking, as I understand it in our neighboring province to the east, the student either goes university-bound or vocational-bound; they haven't got the equivalent of our General Cours e, and I think that as we develop our vocational pattern at the high sch ool level we will have a

May 15, 1968 2075 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd .) more flexible program all around than several of our sister provinces, so I think we can take from that that there is this increased flexibility. In other words , these other jurisdictions are now busily, for example to the east, building 19 types of MIAA types of complex, and as I say again, we don't take a back seat in that area.

With respect to prerequisites for admission to our institutes, again I think that the integration of the General and University Entrance Course will make it more possible to eliminate the kinds of situation alluded to by the Leader of the Opposition.

The University, as you krrow, some years ago when they used to allow you to go into university with a supple mental from Grade 11 , they then stopped that practice because many students went through to their degree level, couldn't take their degree because they had a supplem ental back knows when, and this of course is where the senate of the University in that instance said a student shall have a clear standing in five subject areas at this level before they can qualify for a degree.

They had so much trouble with that, as I understand it, that they made certain they didn't admit people unless they had the standing when they came in. We do, at the Institute, try to be more flexible. We admit students to our technologies out there with a supplemental in a subject because they'r e interested; they may be a good science student who's failed his Fr ench or English course. We admit him and hopefully he will get off his program. The increased flexibility with the General and University Entrance Course we think will further assist that student to achieve on his way to other courses .

I would point out to the honourable member the very thing -- it's been my understanding all along that in the General Course, for examp le, our French program is Conversa tional French; in the General Course. In the University Entrance Course it pretty well has to be the Ecouter et Parler series because these students who are proficient or more proficient in the languages, it would seem to me are not going to get into an Arts Course where they'll be taking the French language without a pretty thorough grounding in the grammar and what have you. But I quite agree with him .

I' ve debated this many times with my staff: why can't we make all the second languages that we' re offering now -Ukrainian, German and Fr ench - more conversational? Well, they are - in the General Course pattern. WelI now, under the new rules of '69 I can see a student taking the Conversational Fr ench, Conversational German to the end of Grade 12 and counting it as a University Entrance subject, and by that time the High School Examination Board again is saying we're only going to examine in three subject areas at that time, or a student only has to be passed in three of the three hundred series.

I think I would like to get away from any suggestion at any time that the General Course is an inferior course, or it lacks prestige, and I think this has been a thing that has slowed it down, especially in the urban centres. It's been far more acce ptable in the rural areas. And again, the General Course will admit you to the School of Nursing in most hospitals today. As a matter of fact , one or two of the universities this year took students with the General Course and admitted them on a trial basis .

And this flexibility I agree with completely , and I' m sure we can maintain our standards and the high level of excellence which the Manitoba Educational system has enjoyed. But I think as this jells and comes about - which it's more and more becoming jelled - we will have a quite diverse and interesting program .

Again, the Oc cupa tional Entrance Course, 4, 000 students this year in the slow-learning category, or students who aren't achieving as early as Grade 7 in the regular general and academic , General Course or the regular elem entary program , are taking a special academic subject pattern and working two days a week in Job Placeme nt. We have Job Plac ement . Divisions are placing these people in jo b opportunities - at garages and in different industries , and giving them the work experience in connection with their studies. And of course all members again say the R. B.

Russell type of concept where students who weren't achieving in their regular high school pattern, who would be drop-outs or who would - Lord knows, would be in tough situations - are able to come in at that early age and begin their work toward an occupation. So I think we are building in the flexibility. I don't think it's perfect by any means , but I think we're mak ing as much , if not -- I think we'v e made fantastic headway in the last few years. Fantastic. And we're developing -- the department are working hard in maintaining this and in proving it , and now we can start improving it.

We'v e built this; we'v e completed the building of the General Course and most of the University Entranc e pattern, and we'll carry on in this area. With respect to the Head Start Program , there was a little mix-up in my mind when the honourable member mentioned Head Start. There's a New Start Program - Head Start Program - I get them mixed up from time to tim e, The New Start one was the equivalent of

2076 May 15, 19 68 (MR. JOHNSON cont' d. ) our ARDA FRED type of approach that I found in Saskatchewan, but there are, as the Leader of the Opposition said, about ten nursery school classes in Winnipeg, schools in the lower socio-economic areas of the city, and volunteers are helping, as the member said, and in addition there are Day Centr es that we all know of, that are looking after the children of working mothers . A MEMBER: What's the government doing ? MR. JOHNSON: The government is supporting the operational costs but not the capital in the nursery schools in these areas .

With respect to co=unity -- well I think I dealt with the community college aspect . With respect to television, I do hope that honourable members have all read the brief which in my absence my Deputy Minister pres ented at the annual meeting held in Ottawa that was probably reported in the press. (I had it here a moment ago. ) This brief, which was submitted to the Standing Co=ittee on Broadcasting , I believe is excellent and I've seen no criticism of it. As we said in our brief, currently 90 percent of our school population are able to receive these TV programs if they're provided with television receivers .

We are prepared and we feel that the present arrangement with the CBC type of development should be extended. Instead of the two hours a day, if we had a block time on television, maybe on a special channel, VHF channel which is open here - there is one open. You could even have evening university lectures on it; you could have university courses beamed out.

As we said in our brief, we're prepared to provide the production staff if we get the technology through this source, and I think before we consider developing our own television network, which would be terribly costly , that we would hope to have some indication from the federal authorities with respect to this and I welcome the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition about any assistance that may be required we'd be happy to contact the member .

I think we're very fortunate in Manitoba in having a lady who is probably, and I think in my opinion, the most knowledgeable person in Canada in educational television and radio broadcasting, and that's Miss Gertrude Mcca nce, and she has emphasized repeatedly to us and the department that these programs have to be properly prepared with proper performers even on the closed circuit type of TV or they simply don't come across. I think the teachers in the House will recognize that it's difficult for a teacher to teach her class and then go down and become a performer and have it come out in a most meaningful way.

I think that, like the Leader of the Opposition said, it's often occurred to me that beaming this out to our smaller schools would certainly help our teaching force who are so manfully engaged in upgrading and keeping up with the current events in education, and while it won't eliminate the teacher I think it has a great potential, and I hope it is real in education.

I hope the members recognize that Manitoba is the only province to produce an educational spectacular in Canada, and we have the know-how here in our staff, and we're terribly interested in seeing the results of the Standing Co=ittee on Broadcasting and the recommendations they may bring forward. But in closing, I do appreciate the contribution of the Leader of the Opposition in many of these areas which -- where I think he can be more optimistic with past developments , and we will press on and try and keep everyone informed. With respect to St. Pau l's and St.

John's on campus, their amalgamation with the University is partly related to financing but it's also related to the logic of combined effort except for the theological instruction, and their continuation, of course, with the University is not related to the establishment of Brandon and Winnipeg. As I outlined briefly the other day, I thought the Council of Higher Learning had resolved this I think most satisfactorily, and St. John' s and St. Paul's have as at the end of last month indicated that they are pleased to carry forward under this arrangement where there's an integration of the academic staff on campus.

We have three -- that's really all I could say on that at this time. No, we have no firm perc entages in mind with respect to the perc entage of students that should be in any one course. I think more and more this is a matter of guidance. I think probably -- my own opinion is you'll have a greater and greater perc entage taking the 50 per cent vocational program as it becomes available; you'll have a greater perc entage coming to university as we have greater consolidations and better elementary schools, and we'll have a greater perc entage coming to our institutes of technology and our industrial division.

I think all of these shifted emphasis, as I tried to say at the opening of my estimates ; more and more students staying longer and longer in schools in the higher grades, which is going to cost us a lot more money too, and probably a levelling out of the elementaries from the high birth

I I May 15, 1968 2077 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd. ) . . . . . rates of the '40s and '5 0s. So education is becoming more and more sophisticated and more and more expensive. The handling of Grade 12 students is a matter, of cours e, for individual school systems. We don't regulate the detailed conduct of schools . We provide examinations for the university entrance but we don't prescribe how to reach it. Many of our adults now, in the adult school in Winnipeg at the Isbister site, are able to as far as we're concerned write their exams any time they're ready.

Over the age of 21, as long as a student passes the Grade 12 we don't worry, the High School Examination Board doesn •t worry too much about the prerequisites. If a chap is that age and can pass his subject areas set by the High School Examination Board, he's accepted. Again greater and greater flexibility. With respect to gold medals , we're examining this whole area again in the Department of Education and gold medals are given over thirteen so-ca lled Isbister districts , three in the Greater Winnipeg area and then the rest are across the province.

The Member for Neepawa- Gladstone wondered about the number of schools . There are exactly six now - that's all that's left - special schools with 'nine teachers , and there are four schools on Hutterite colonies operated by the Official Trustees, so you were just about on target. It's ten and thirteen teachers. I have not got their qualifications at the moment. I' d be happy to try and locate them for the honourable member.

With respect to the second stage of the educational revolution in the White Paper refer red to by the Member for Neepawa- Gladstone, I think it's going to take ti me, especially in our province, to see the percentages increase in the vocational program. I' m convinced that once we build the schools , a few of them, and the pupils see them that it will become more and more acc eptable.

As I said in my co=ents that I introduced at the time of my estimates , I think if you read that you get the best assessment of the matter that I can see, but the Expert Committee said a few years ago they thought in time up to 40 perc ent would take ad vantage of it and I think that's possibly a little way off; I think that 25 perc ent would off the top. Our survey, incidentally, in the Selkirk area showed that out of 400 and some-od d boys and girls canvassed, 232 were interested in a 50 perc ent vocational program and 170 in going to university.

Well very quickly I' ll -- just the Member for Rhineland, I would just like to point out to him that the $24 million in the Finance Board Report is the Foundation levy. The Board calculates the amount of the Foundation levy required to be raised by each municipality and receives the levy directly from the municipality. It determines this. The Board receives all budgets of the unitary divisions and remote districts , and last year that was 48 plus 18 remote.

In determining the amounts that they can earn under the program, it has no power, as you know, under the Act to cut budgets , but has made suggestions in several areas point ing out economies and efficiencies to the various boards that come before it. It held several meetings, and in some cases have gone out - divided into committees -- have gone out to look at school construction, methods of school construction, and they've met with many boards on their home ground. In the coming year they're very anxious to meet with municipalities and school officials in their own areas. Capital requirements.

It's only after the most careful examination of the project with the boards that the Projects Committee makes a decision, and if the honourable member has anything specific I'd be glad to hear of it, if he felt any board was undutly dealt with or some thing. I don't know of any offhand and they keep me fairly well informed of any refusals , but of course their function is to be as efficient as possible and to work with the boards in develop ing the right kind of educational program and facilities . So I'm sure there must be two sides to any particular argument of that kind.

We have a task force at the present time who have met once, I believe, with the group from the Honourable Member from Rhineland's part of Manitoba. I believe my staff are going down there again soon to talk to the people, to see what they have in mind, and to talk over their situation with them. Our developments will depend on acc eptability by the people; it will depend on our programming, our ability to raise our share of the funds and the develop ments that are occurring generally in that area. I have no further remarks to make to the Honourable Member from Rhineland on the unitary plan at this time.

I think we'll just have to resolve that we're going to remain in dis agreement for the current year at least. MR. MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, we have now reached ten minutes to five; we have 40

2078 May 15, 1968 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd. ) minutes left to cover the remaining departments as well as Capital Supply. This is a very interesting department and there are many other questions we would like to have. As far as my own group is concerned, we prefer to forego any further discussion and proceed to Capital Supply where we are dealing with some $250 million, and possibly the tabling of the report, or the plans for the Highways Department. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, on this point, I have one or two of my colleagues that still want to make a contribution to the debate on education.

Capital supply -- first of all, as I understand the rule, at the expiration of the 80 hours then every matter pertaining to the estimates automatically is put to the Co=ittee and passed. As far as Capital Supply is con cerned, if memory serves me correctly, Capital Supply comes in by way of a Hill which is given first, second and third readings. We have opportunity at that time -- (Interjection) - There's no bill on capital supply? I just wonder, Mr. Chairman, if you could .... MR. CHAIRMAN : The advice we have from the Clerk is that it belongs with the estimates. MR. ·PAULLEY: Pardon? MR.

CHAIRMAN: It's in with the estimates. There is no Bill. -- (Interjection) -- Oh there is a Bill? MR. PAULLEY: As I understand it, there is a Bill that follows, and at which time the contents of the Bill, which in essence is Capital Supply, can be considered. Now this is my impression, and I would suggest that if my honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition wants to talk on Capital Supply it can be done at that time. However, apart from all of that, I do know that one or two of my colleagues still have a question to ask of the Minister of Education. MR.

LYON: .... as this interlude we're entirely -- the government is entirely in the hands of the House in this matter, and we'll try to acco=odate in any way that we can in the time that remains. Now if my honourable friend the Leader of the New Democratic Party intimates that they have further questions on education, I would presume then that those should be dealt with and then we move to Capital Supply. In the meantime, I believe the acting Min ister of Highways has the road program ready for distribution.

If it would be the wish of the members to have that distributed while the education is continuing, that could be done. If that's agreeable we'll -- the Minister may just say a word on it. MR. CAMP BELL : Mr.

Chairman, I certainly agree with that suggestion, but the other one in regard with what the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party has said, it's true that a Bill comes in, but the difference is that we can't ask the questions back and forth in the way that we can in this Committee, and I think it's much better to have the details of the Capital Supply given in Committee if that can possibly be arranged. I don't want to inter fere with anybody with questions to ask, but I certainly do think that the preferable time to have that is while we're still in Committee of the Supply. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, I too would want to have some more specific information on these amounts under Capital Supply in Committee. MR. LYON: .... for the Bill, of course, where some of this information could be elicited if the clock does not permit us to do it at the present stage. MR. CHAIRMAN : Well, in view of the fact that there will be a bill then on Capital Supply and it'll come back to Committee for discussion, is it agreed then to proceed with education? MR. PAULLEY: .... in conclusion.

I'd have no objections if we completed the consider ation of the estimates on the Department of Education and every member has asked all the questions they want on education, we go into Capital Supply. It's obvious we're not going to get into a number of departments of which we would want to ask questions on, which we're going to be prevented by the 80-hour rule in any case, and this applies to the Department of Welfare, the Department of Labour equally to what it does to Capital Supply. MR. CHAIRMAN: I wonder then if the Minister of Highways would like to -- The Mem ber for Seven Oaks. MR.

SAUL MILLER (Seven Oaks) : I'm going back to education, Mr. Chairman, if I might. -- (Interjection) -- Well we wandered off a bit. I just have one or two points I'd like to ask the Minister. It's a few years now since Manitoba started to make textbooks available to the students, but even though this is a few years old apparently it hasn't been extended across the board to all courses . I'm thinking of one in particular, the Industrial Arts Course, where in some

May 15 , 19 68 2079 (MR. :MILLER cont'd .) cases it's optional course but in other cases it's a compulsory course in some schools , and there is an authorized textbook but the authorized textbook is not issued to the students , it's issued to the classroom.

In other words , they might have as many as 30 textbooks for that particular classroom, and yet in the school that I' m talking about there are twelve classes of approximately 30 students each, and so the students can avail themselves of the textbook while the y're in the classr oom but of course they cannot take it out with them ; they cannot take it home; they can not use it to study . This, in many cases , it's led I gather to the school having to try to mime ograph hunks of the book where the teacher feels that the students should have this information so they can study at ho me.

And I'm wondering why, at this stage of the game, the books available through the Textbook Bureau and are part of the authorized textbook system , why they'r e not being made available not to the class room but to the students enrolled. As I see it, in some schools where you have 200 or 300 students they should be made available to all students . It's a one-shot affair. These books are left v.dth the school and next year they can be re-used again, so unless there's a real reason or a very good reason why this isn't done , I' d like an explanation from the Minister.

I'm sure he agrees that com�ses such as Industrial Arts are just as important and perhaps more so than many other courses . The other similar problem , alt1!,ough it's not dealing with books, is the course on the Listen and Speak, the French course Ec outer et Pa rler which the Mini1>ter threw around a few times this afternoon. There's a course which, as it says, it says Listen and Speak. There 's a textbook and this is available to the students, but with the textbook and complemen tary to the textbook and essential to the textbook is a recording, because as the title implies , it's Listen and Speak.

Without the recording the textbook really isn't of much value. In the classroom the recording is available, but again when the student goes home - and he has got the textbook - when the student goes home he is encouraged by the teachers to have the recording as well so they can practice and they can hear the sounds as lthey are supposed to be pronunciated. But these records are not tr eated in the same way as the textb ook.

As a matt er of fact, the records are on sale at the Textbook Bureau - I think it's 75 cents each - and to add insult to injury the re's a 5 perc ent sales tax on them because they 'r e not textbooks, as such, they 're records , even though they are sold only through the Textbook Bureau and really nobody is interested in them except for those that are taking the course. So I'm wondering why we still are bound to think in terms of textbooks only.

Surely with the recognition that has now been given to other means of communication such as recorchngs, such as fihnstrips and so on, why is it not recognized now in Manitoba that thes e are part of the learning process , these are part of the tools of the teac hing proce ss, and where they are required for the pupil they should be issued to the pupil in much the same way as textbooks in matriculation courses or most other courses. Another area which I think we're still lagging in very badly is in the question of libraries in the schools, particularly the junior high and senior high levels .

The ones who suffer most are the new schools , the ones that are now being built. The library grants are so very low that when schools are opened, it's really pitiful to walk into the so-ca lled library and to be surrounded by empty shelves .

They haven •t got the finances to stock even the basic library, and again with the changes in teaching techniques , with the acceptance by everyone that the method of teaching no longer is simply a teacher standing in front of th1e cl assroom and lecturing the pupils but that the pupils are encouraged to learn how to research or learn how to look up their background information, are introduced to library facilities , surely it is essential as part of the facility itself that library resources on an adequate scale be made available in all schools , and this includes new schools .

Now the last item I want to point out, or ask a question about, is this very iovely little booklet handed out this afternoon, and although I think it's a very beautiJrnl job, I'm curious about one thing: (

a) What is the cost of it; (

b) How many were printed; (

c) For what earthly purpose is it issued and in what way does it enhance the Department of Ed ucation's ess ential work? As I say, it's a very handsome looking thing and we often hear, as we heard earlier in the debates this year by the Member for Emerson, where he thought that perhaps there were too many frills in educ ation. Well , before we start looking for the frills in education on the local level , what about the frills within our own department ? There is, as I say, some beautiful sketches here, and if I was interested in the draftsman of these I might ce rtainly

2080 May 15, 1968 (MR. MILLER cont'd. ) . . . . . commend whoever drew them, but I can't for the world of me see why these expensive booklets are put out and what purpose they may serve. I'm also curious, besides how many were printed or issued, who actually received them outside of the members of this House. These are a few items I would like to have answered, Mr. Chairman. MR . DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to raise a few final points.

In regard to in service training which is becoming more prevalent, I would like to know whether there are any control checks on what is being carried on in these sessions, because I have heard frequent complaints from people attending them - and I th,ink the teachers themselves have a lot of the responsibility on planning these programs - but I have heard complaints about the lack of value of some of these sessions.

For example, an art teacher wrote me a very angry letter saying that the session mainly consisted of the teacher who gave the session showing them a picture of Bugs Bunny and then they were asked to copy it and then they were marked on accuracy, and he thought this was an idiotic exercise. In regard to Grade 9, I would also like to know whether the government has ever con sidered having more than one Grade 9 course.

I know you get into the problem of an infinite regress , but some teachers seem to feel that one aingle Grade 9 course for all students is not right, that there maybe should be a comparable number to that of the high schools. In regard to correspondence courses, there seemed to be quite a delay this year, in the fall in particular, particularly at the Grade 11 and 12 levels. Some of the new courses were delayed weeks, and in one case I think in the English course there was something like an eight week delay at one point in terms of new lessons.

I'm also told that in some correspond ence courses they give the same exam, maybe depending on your progress, at Christmas and at Easter, so some students are taking the Christmas exams from somebody else and writing the same one at Easter and pulling off a 95. Maybe that should be looked into. The Minister also dealt with the question of tranquilizers, but I think there is a twin problem involved there. One is the question of pressures within the system which are causing some students to require some medical attention and tranquilizers; the other question is the whole drug problem.

I don't want to raise that issue right now, but when the Minister is confronted with this kind of thing he always gives his opinion, and I'm not asking him for his opinion so much as I'm asking him for what information he has. What researched information, what statistics that he has to back up his opinion, because the newspapers are full of arrests, comments about up to· five percent of the students glue sniffing, articles on half the students in high schools being offered various things, and the Minister says he doesn't think it's a serious problem.

I would like to know whether he has done any research into this area. Finally, just on a couple of short points, the Manitoba Association of School Trustees asked the department that dictionaries be included as authorized textbooks. I think that's an important point. Having taught, I'v e seen the kind of distionaries that students have. They have the old Grade 7 Winston airplane dictionary or something they carry through to Grade 12. They are not adequate and a lot of students just don't have dictionaries, so why don't we issue dictionaries each year to the students as actual textbooks ?

And on another small point, I notice that the American schools are now using in problem areas - for instance in New York up to $2 million a year is being spent on replacing broken · windows - they are going into new kinds of materials, acrylic plastic which is transparent and very strong and so on. Winnipeg is spending $12, OOO a year on broken windows plus the cost of replacing them, and I just wonder whether the department has examined or tested any of these or has considered using these new type of fabrics in areas where they have heavy breakage.

And finally, I would like to know whether we are turning out enough French instructors. We have gone into a stepped-up program of French language instruction and I would like to know whether we are getting enough teachers for these new courses and also whether we are training them. MR . CHAIRMAN : (a)--passed? MR . JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, I guess I'm supposed to answer some of these questions .

With respect to the brochure distributed today, my department told me that the architect had had 100 of these made for his own purposes and asked the Director of Voc ational Training if he thought the members of the House would like a copy and sent 60 over; no charge on us; . not authorized by me; outside my purview. I thought it would be helpful to the honourable members who had to cover such a large field in such a short time in the department. You know

• • I I I I I May 15, 1968 2081 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd. ) it's one of those things that if you give the fellows information they wonder where it comes from and who produc ed it; you don't produc e it and you hear it from the other side . So I'm pleased to pass on anything that I can get for the honourable mem bers for nothing, I' ll do so, and as much information as I can. With respect t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-2-83
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 2nd hansardpdf 83.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	07ceac5a8df77537c92365133fc401c2e840c470

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