Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-8EVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY , APRI L 29, 1976 Number 53 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER ,.

April 21J, l!J7fi. ~<" House me>t at ?:')() p.m. Mr. Spealrer in th<' r.hair. Tape 221\6 PRFSRNTINti PETITIONS: The hon. member for I"eNisporte. Tlll - 1 !111. SPEAKER: ~fR • 1' • HliiTr: : 1'r. Sneaker, I Hould like to present two petitions from my c!istric;:t of Lewispol"te. One comes from the town of Jlirchy Bay. The other comes from t~e tm-m of Campbellton. Both are sip,ned hy several hunc!rcr'l residents of hath coffiiTiunities. They are hath in connection with the electric rate, tl1e electrical rates in the Province.

They are opposed to, as we all are, to further increases in the electrical rates in the rrovince. Commenting on those petitions, Mr. Speaker, I just wanten to say one thinp;. I •~as r;oinr; to bring it up when the estimates of the Hinister of MinP.s and Ene-rgy's department •~ere beinr, discuss eel, hut I did not at that particular occasion. I would like to bring it up now. That i~ that I thinl: the people of "Tewfounrlland should he told in the hest possfble •~ay, in the best forecast possible just how far the electrical rates are going to go.

I think it has become practically obvious during tl,c last fe,~ •~eeks and months that v7e are not going to see any decrease in electrical rates in the Province. I think it has also become obvious that further increases •~ill probably come into effect durinf', the next year or two ,or next couple of years and so on. So I think it is probably "important that some attempt he made hy the government, he made hy the ~1inister of t!im'.S anrl Enenw to let the people knm~ just how far and how had and how severe electrical rates are going to become during the next fe1~ years so th,,t pe-ople can plan according] y.

It has been suggested here in the llouse in the last fe" weeks that there are few wood stoves, for instance, heinr, used anymore and tha.t peo'Ple are getting <n~ay from t11Clt l·inrl of thing. FelJ T rlisar;ree. In my district this vear there are hundreds of ~·mod stoves that have been installed by 'People who are aiJ'I.re of the kinrls of. increases that \ve are going to see in the field of electricity and in oil in the next few vears. Now I thinJ.: that people should be forev7arned if electrical rates 6140

April 29, 197n. HR. HHITE: Tape ?26n RH - 2 Rnrl oil incrP.ases are going to go, as we here in the House suspect that they will, and they should be tole\ to prej)are for the worst. One 'Particular i~divjdual in my district has come up with a scheme, Nr. Speaker, whereby he 11as a combination oil and tmod stove. 1\lhen the temperature reaches a certain level the oil cuts in, and the~ when he fills up his furnace full of tvood and as lonp, as the wood is burning the oil does not take effect. Jlut as soon as the temperature decreases as a result of the tmod being burnerl out, then the oil cuts in.

So it is a fantastic system that he has got going. ~!ore and more people are putting wood stoves in their basements. The heat consequently keeps the electrical rates down. So I think that some attempt shoul~ bP. made to warn the people of Newfoundland about electrical rates during the next few years so that they can guard themselves accordingly. I would like to have those petitions tabled and presented to the deoartment to which they relate. NOTICE OF NOTIONS: MR • SPEAKEF : The han. Minister of Industrial Relations. HON. IC. MAYNARD: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a hill, "An Act To Amend The l?orkmen 1 s Compensation Act." (Rill No. l>7) HR. !'l'EAKF.R: The hon. Hinister . of Justice. RON. A. HICKMAN: Hr. Spellker, I give notice that I ~•ill on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a hill, "An Act For The Avoidance Of Uncertainty Concerning Certain Judgments Issuing Out Of The Supreme Court Of Newfoundland':', (Bill No. 4fi); and on behalf of my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Finance, a l,fll, "An Act To Amend The Liquor r.orporation Act." (Bill No. 49) MR.

SPEAKE!.: The hon. the ~1inister of Mines and F.nergy. HR . J. CROSBIE: ~lr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introrluce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Acquisition Of Rights To Minerals In The Province", (Bill No. 50); and a bill, "An Act Respectinp, The Acquisition Of Rights To Quarry }laterials l•!ithin The Province", (Bill ~:o. 51); and a bill, "An Act To Amend The Mininp.: And Hineral Rights Tax Act." (llill No. 52) 6141

".nril ~9 , 1 '176 Tape /..21'. 7 l!H -- 1 _Q_!AL QUESTIONS MR. SPF.AKER: The bon. the member for Terra Nova. HR. LUSH: Mv <Juestion is for the Hinister of Education. As all hon. members are ID~are , teachers have been granted a svstem of sa hha tical leave this year, and the numbers of teachers to p:et tha t sabbatical leave is at the discretion of the minister. I wonder if the minister is in · a position to inform the House how many teachers will p.et sabbatical leave this year and probably where they come from, not their communities , bu-t whether they are from the Island part of the Province or Labrador? MR .

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. - - -- 'iR. HOUSE: - - --- I would presume, Mr. Speaker, that he is referring to the recent announcement I made this year, I am talking about · this current vear. MR. L)JSR: This current year. This current year. l~ell there are two this current year. I named them in a statement here the other day, and one was Wilfred Rumbolt, and the other is Monica Moriarity. She is from - St. Mary's Bav, I believe. St. Mary's Bay? Possibly, I am not sure of that. And Mr. Rumbolt is from the Labrador Coast.

The collective agreement gives the teachers control of the selection of these people, and there is a committee set up from the NTA, Department of Education, and the Federation of School Boards, two members of each. They set up their own guidelines for the selection and what they would look for, the criteria. And first of all they selected those teachers who have given a fair amount of service, number one, and ·wno still have not obtained an undergraduate degree. They selected these teachers. And it came down to twelve people. They took a lot of things into consideration.

The opportunity that people had for upgrading, for iristance,were they near centres where university courses were being offered. And then, of course, they selected from the 6142

\ ',: ?. !;' ('; April 29, 1976 Tape no. 2267 Page 1. - ~ ~ r. House. and ~~.f gJ tfr-7f: 5,~~it,~e~~;,~;~"7.~d,)l}tf;,, .~h~, .~~,9 Jpirf Yf~F~ . g~~~P·. ;, V<.>. -ro th~-,.s~lecti~~\.; , 2 ,):1Jt frnte:fff6e~gf~ f.!lltfH H,, Y?fl fpuJ.1:: f.flt£ tf:L~·Jilc <: 2 :; r f ; interfere,~~Z~ ,;Jg!} J!f,~.~, 1 ag}[~U.m:tWR.t tg~ ,~~p1 f,;?.Jt>l~ .kpa_f1 t¥~j fPf~~t~fi¥ -,1 HR . SPEAKER: Does the.hon. gentleman have a supplementary? -::::.:.......:::;:..::;.:,:;+:• H .. ic ....... ·r'f S"'!B "J'9:1j '1"9rfT.snw Jor:1 . C: 5.!.:tl!'1Lfff'".!: ... ~.!'l -u~:: ·' ,;;7 .:·roi J u J HR. SMALLWOOD: No! ~m.

LUSH: . fo U~}~5~ fBaht&r ~ ~nt,~}e:rrl?i'f 0)?'-bly by virt~ ~ ~~-~';?: ·7··· his sta~rm~!?'t- 'lt~r ~~.tf.H? t~ i~¥,9t¥~~ .i;r;t r J.;~ ~ut I am just 'YiJ.!l': n won.~~.fJP.f i~ 5 t~1e !fltJlrSHfi:t c~EJ?r~vt~~:-:~~~- House:,lf!.tB-t P.~:fefly~P.F n 91 ,., table it, whatever the situation might be , th~. k,;Hl~.- 8-hJ$!:/fR.~~'-'·"H that were used or what the cri~UH :f;~K~! :.: ~.::h·ask this for - ~~?I!. ~ - :··:~ a specific reason. So probably. t~ ~;WH,s.~r 2 f_q11ld comment on;2.::o;r ,., .. it 1~""'2f. f-et . .1f~ ., ~11Jrr~'r .. dll~Ii£iHY.e/},,th,n_!;u;Kl§!.Yn¥£!!1 ·; How was the MR. SPEAKER: MR.

HOUSE: I can a~£.7!JP!~ r: ~., ~p,~a}<.eF-t r, ,_o. g~t the gui~~M;lil!.lh,'! __ . if" Jlt~:l a,yn I~!fPr~e!'@~alit~ ft : v !Rr,SBtJ!llli~;~lt' '!fB.t'~g~t . ~11 represening }-~~ /- · i·.:. three bodies I mentioned, a?sl ,-. ~~Y""i}~HF.~}n~,Jh tpt4f j!Ui9!!J;4i@B·. :f~te~r; t·, determt,~~~ ') S~~iir.9WP.'3 ~p~d5!M~IJ!hff~ 1 f!?~~! ic Bearing in mind, of course, ~~~t9 ~~~1 ~.')Fhr ~~l ·t~~Hv~r_..,~g~~i!P,3~& ·~,,J ,.Jh;e-k_,., ;!J-11-ld-~ .~ t~e -: wa,a .!-&· .v.• L~· • SPY:Hi.: nn;l;he.

HPII-3 .1g!f~tJ.~~n- ~~ll;.i i'ldlUppJ.gwe~~JYjs, :•.: hcc;; ::o.cJ :>.:> :s;-: ~~~ -.WSll:i . c JJ,r~En!l4 tJ:!kg Ke~.r~h§v~!;n<!l'iteP.::-;P :; D§:t a§J.g c-: ~o ; ;pf9~i!ll': lEhJ!:: Holf~~h-~Ehs5!l!J!,S~J4~1&ne~sa~ , ~ll~ r: ~t :; ~~ts~vD~t r _!:b.~ :; c;t;;l:-~;er;!a y1u1e obtained, .)~~~au~~l~o!ffio~v 'l'~~BnsjP'!~e~c!!libH !!r§ftil w{i~h9P.llU~d:~ •· 91>9. b~ :) Wall ~ asked ~' v!i1i'.'l~~r~:W\is J; ,.. T~~h!/-fHh ¥t:Bh 5 ~~lb 0 t-:::§ll-1;1Seh~Q~_·: . ;-o 1 . c ,~. ::;:·.-,- -,:: -. ,: _,,::,; 5 ,.rfR. ;,JlO:U~Es:ns J ~llt!fk, ~Q!Jfe : we~e J~~t~e;!ls;ui4~~in~!! t~"~ s th§ti>o wbut :.

LM will attempt to- get it for the hen. member. S6!~3

April 29, 1976 Tape 2267 MH :- 3 MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. the member for TWillingate and then the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.~ .§.MALL WOOD: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. Government House Leader , the Minister without Portfolio, if it is the intention of the government, who, of course, have the - exceut on Wednesdays -- sole right to call the order of business of the House. to have the Speech from the Throne debated?

Two hqn. members have so far, I believe, spoken in that debate on a speech that was brought down five months ago; and to call also the debate on the Budget Speech, and I believe that on that I do not think anyone except the minister has yet said a word ; and the resolution on Come By Chance, on which only the minister who introduce the resolution and the Leader of the Opposition, in ~art, have so far spoken.

The three great, major debates of this session, is it the intention of the government to call them or are they going to wait until all other business is done, which would be the most extraordinary and unusual and unprecedented occurrence in parliamentary history, I think7 Are we ~oing to have these debates? MR. __ S_!'_EAKER: MR. WELLS: debates. The hon. the Minister without Portfolio. Yes, Mr. Speaker, we are going to have these 6!44

April 29. 1976, Tape 2268 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: A question for the Minister of Mines and Energy. Would he tell the House, Sir, whether the government are giving consideration to the alleged offer, and I say 'alleged' because I rely only on press reports, by the Government of Quebec to purchase 7,500 square miles of Labrador either in their own name or through Quebec-Hydro? MR.2!~ RON. J. CROSBIE: The bon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr.

Speaker, as bon. members know, it is pretty hard not to know, I bad a meeting with the Minister of Natural Resources yesterday in Quebec City, with the Ron. Jean Cournoyer, and the purpose of the meeting was to discuss the suggestion we have made to the Government of Quebec and Quebec-Hydro that the Government of Newfoundland would like to have available in the Upper Churchill project an additional 600 megawatts of power in addition to the amount that CFLCo has the right to recall under the power contract, which amounts to 300 megawatts.

Now the 300 megawatts that CFLCo already has the right to recall, some of that has been recalled and is needed for use in Labrador. In fact about 100 megawatts is needed for use in Labrador by the Iron Ore Company and other customers in Labrador. That leaves 200 megawatts from the amount that CFLCo has the right to recall. And the Province has asked for an additional 600 megawatts to be made available in 1982 at the same price as is provided for in the contract between CFLCo and Quebec­ Hydro. That matter was discussed with Premier Bourassa and Mr. Cournoyer about a month ago.

And this meeting was a follow-up meeting at which Mr. Cournoyer was to suggest alternatives to our suggestion. The meeting was held yesterday. In the meantime, as bon. gentlemen know, Mr. Cournoyer has made several statements that have ruffled the waters of the whole situation, uninvited, but asked by the press. I met with him yesterday to discuss whatever other suggestions the Government of Quebec had. And naturally, Mr. Speaker, these are hardly 6145

April 29 , 197f; Tape 2268 PK - 2 ~ lr. J. Crosbie: matte:~;s in which ,while negotiations are going on ,one does 110t cl i sclose the1n until they are conclucled. In any event at the end o[ that meeting it was ap,reed, because he hacl brougltt up the boundary question,that J "as cert::dnly p;oinp; to tell the press that t~e had n•pucHateci any ],o,~nciary sur;gestions, and that persmnably he ~~oulcl no,fer to it ld!'l!'elf, and t~1ere would be no other discussion. hie' "'ould not tell the press anything else that we had discussed.

Tht>re are rio d6!&isions being reached, it was only information to communicate back to our government, this goverllll1ent here by me. In the meantime after the press conference I restricted myself to wh!it had been ar,reed. Then Hr. Cournoyer Hent on to suggest s!"veral others things that had been discussed,or suggested by him. So I ><ill discuss what he has discussed in public. At th<1t meeting, thC' meeting op!!necl up ~~ith Hr. Cournayer suggesting that if the Government of Quebec made 1100 additional megawatts available from the> Upper Churchill,that these boundaries should be adjusted.

He '101cl already brou~ht the question up. So that was given tremendously short shift hecause,as I told him,as he already knew, and I assume IH.' ~Jas just raising this for his own political reasons, that the Govenlment of :je·.Jfounuland and no person in Newfoundland would contemplate for one second any adjustment in the boundary - Ml liON . ME~!JlER: Hear, hear~ !!S_ CR_9S.EH: - or any change in the boundary. Sm!E liOn. HF.~Illi\P.S: !lear, hear~ ~SlliE: So I '"ns not going to discuss that further and if th2 t is ~~h<1 t he wan ted to discuss of course this ~~auld be a very sl1ort meet~ng.

So then hC' dropped that, of course, He acc~pted our position as he must. lle has no choice but to accept it. lie then Hent on to sur,gest, and I am mentioning this because he has mentioned thjs publicly, and, you know, it is an extraordinary way to try to conduct any negotiation. It makes it very difficult if not impossible. 6146

April 29. 1976 Tape 2268 PK -· 3 MR. CROSBIE: ------- Mr. Cournoyer suggested this, then went on to other alternatives that he wanted to discuss in return for this alleged concession of our having 600 megawatts from the Upper Churchill, in excess of 6147

'rape 2269 JB-1 ''"" t.T'fl!'ll1E: r:n,r:o 's rjght to rec~<ll n ·certain D.mount of pot,•er. He surwesteil that O"e!-,e~ - p}>etlJer lJe is t;t]t·inr for his p;overnment or not, I can onJ y ~<sr-;llm~> U•at hP is - th11t ')uebec """l(t likP t0 h?ve thP. ri.[!ht to pnrchnse the 1 11nil i.nvoJ VC'<1 in the Natersheds of the H .ve r:ivers that or:l r:inate in T,abr~r'!or anil then po throuE.h T.abr:tilor into the CuJ f of ~t.

L<wrence, that they •••nuJil "'Rnt to pttr~hase thi~< lanC'. '~'he area of the lanr'! invol ve(l ~mnJ il 1-,e S0T"e•·•here from 7, 000 to 10 ,0()() square mi J es, but of c-ourse they Pouid be subject to the sovereignty of the Province of" NeHfotm<.11and and would have nothing to (to with the boundaries. P.ut they woulc1 purchase the land anil own it so that thf'y couJ r'! n<"ve>lnp the hyclro ro•.;rer on these rivers if they •·lished to in the future.

T tnJr him th11.t :in ~"Y view no government of Newfound]and "'auld a~ree to sell anv lanr'! tn f1uehec•Hydro or to the Province of nuehec-.. :mr1 c-.ertain] y not anv - Hear, hear! "'ut nntnraJ Jy J <•'.<IS not there to make ilecis:l ons, hut however I was trere to report hack to my own c~b;net, the Premier's crth:lnet,, ,hich T clid this morn:lnr: <"nr1 the cabinet hAs conf:!imec1 and T cnn no..- confiTT" that ,.,l,at 1 tolc1 }'r. rournoyer yesterc1ay is the exact position. The r.overnment of ~)e,.;rfoundlancl if not prepa.red to seJl one souare inch of land.

SI'''E nnN. ~-'f~ ·'JlfT>S: Hear, l1ear: - ~':'__,__r"f\STrrF.: T eli c1 say that we would be preparecl to eli scuss the auestic:m of their c1evelor:!ng those rivers Which originate in 'lr,,•foundl;md hut "here the <1Rm sites tvoulc have .to 'f)e <'lovm in. the Province of nuebec. l·'e tmul c1 be prepared to discuss development of thnse rivers either on a. .io:!.nt hasis or iliscuss possible le<1sinr. of ,.,,.ter rir,hts cir ri[!ht~< to fJoorl or soT"e arrangement like that it thnt '''"'" ne~;e<;s:u·y and jf sotne nens1hle arra.ngement couJd he «rrivecl "t Nhich •··ouJ(I he to onr mutua.l a.dvantage iUld :If tve als0 ohta:ln what Pe a.re 1onk~np for w:lth rPspect to adcit1ona.l po•·;er fro'" the T'pper 6148

AprU 2.9, 1976 Tape 2269 tB-2 ~"!. CPQSBIP.: C:hurch:lll . Then that an~ other matters were discussed. Of course among the matters discussed uas the price of po~·er. If they consent that t.Ye should recapture another 600 megawatts at '"hat pr:lce srould this he at? J.s I have told the House 'we have !Htl"f.!estec' that the price should he the same price as Quebec-Hydro :l.s payinl?. Hr. Cournoyer has suggested that the price should be the replacement cost of the power to Quebec or to Nev.•fotmdla .nd in 1982, wh:!ch would make :l.t very costly indeed.

I have told thel'l that that is not accepta} ·le to us ann we woulcl not agree to pay such a price. Other matters were discussed. I am ment:!.oning these two things hecause he has already mentioned them publicly. And we had a discussion for about an hour and a quarter on matters generally along those lines and concern:lng hydro in Newfoundland and Labraclor and Quebec. So I cannot describe the rest of lilhat ,,,as discussed except to sav naturally no decisions have been reached. That is where the matter lies. ~he government of Newfoundland has made no dec:lsion on any of these points.

The t.Yhole situation will have to he carefully reassessed. and I do not c'oubt but that the Premi.er wilJ be discussing this t••:!th Premier Bourassa in due course and before much further time has p.cne. But just let me 1'18ke it quite clear that Jt is abundantly clear - and this is a false issue anY"'aY - that the government of Newfotmdland has no intention of any adjustment in the boundary suppos]ng we all starve to death. Suppose tve lost the lights in the "'hole Province we would not agree to give anything up in connec .tton with the NeHfoundland ancl Labrador boundary.

I also made it clear what has been confirmed by the cabillet today - I wAs not there to .make ~ec:!sions on my ov.~,naturally - that the government :!_s not prepared to consider or iliscuss the sale of any land to Quebec-Hydro or to nuebec :!ns:!de "e•rfoundland and Labrador. I have made it quite clear thAt the price he is sugRest:!n~ for any recalled block of power is certa:!nly not a price that we are going to agree to or anything close to it. There the matter rests until it is discussed at a higher level, T guess, l,eh:reen the Prem:!.er and Premier Rourass<J. 6149

Ap.ril 2'l, 1976 Tape 2270 MW -· 1 I thank the bon. minister. I cannot help but regret that it is too bad \~e have to do this in Question Period, because if ever there was a subject that this House should debate it is this, and it cannot he debated at Question Period. Indeed we are restricted to asking questions which by nature must be brief,

whereas the minister, of course, quite properly has the ri~ht to expound at some length. But it is too bad, because it means we cannot reallv debate it. However, I shall raise the matter. I will give notice and ask to have it raised under Standing Order 32, I believe it is, this afternoon. At least we will have five minutes each on it. Mr. Speaker, the supplementary \-1Culd be quite simple : lfuere do we go from here with particular reference to when do \-1e get some decision?

I ask that because, of course, the House was told before Christmas in the debate, which we were allowed to have, that, you know, we were risking $55 million, I believe it was, on the project this year, on a gamble that we would be able · to make an accommodation with Quebec. . It now seems as if the chance for that gamble paying off are narrowing down, although the matter may not be resolved , and I hope it is not. But the question is really where do we go from here? I re~ret only that I can only ask a question as I am not allowed to make a statement.

Indeed perhaps we could, by agreement, have a motion to adjourn the Rouse and debate that for a couple of hours this afternoon. It would be more important than what we will probably end up doing. But in any event I have asked the question and let us see what the government's response will be. "'R. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Mines and Enerp,v. - - ---- ·- HR. CRO~:lliE • Mr. Speaker, well with respect to any suggestion of an emergency debate, there is hardly an emergency to debate. There is an urgency of debate '. 6150

April 29, 1976 Tape no. 2270 Page 2 - mw HR. CROSBIE: That can be argued later, I am answering the hon. gentleman's question 1if that was part of it. Witr. respect to the rest of the question, the government, of course, is now and will be for the next week or two weeks, however long it ·takes, reassessing our position to decide exactly what alternatives we will pursue. There are a number of alternatives.

We will also have to decide in the next couple of weeks whether we continue on with the transmission line and the tunnel during this year,or whether we would postpone it for the rest of this year while the steps that we are going to take are decided and carried out. There has been no decision made on that naturally. You cannot make decisions until we have ascertained what the final position of the ,Province of Quebec is, and that will certainly have to be ascertained in the next several weeks. So the government will be reviewing the whole situation in detail. Doubtless the Premier will be meeting with Mr.

Bourassa. The government will then make a decision as to the course we are going to pursue. The government will then inform the House of Assembly what the position is. If hon. gentlemen want to debate it, we would be more than delighted to have a debate on it, and so ample opportunity will occur for a debate. But at the moment there has naturally been no decision made. }m. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. member for LaPoile, then the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to sort of draw the hon. Premier into this matter,if I could, Sir.

As the head of the administration the hon. Premier will be the one who will be heading up the delegation to meet with Hr. Bourassa, I wonder if the Premier would care to make a statement to the House on just what attitu de , what position, he will be taking when he is meeting with Mr. Bourassa? Will be it a tough 1 hard-nosed position and point out,as ~fr. Cournoyer did 1 that Newfoundland does not intend to budge 6151

April 29, l'l76 Tape no. 2270 Page 3 - mw Hr; Neary. one fraction of an inch on discussing the boundaries? I t~ould like to hear that from the Premier and not from one of his underlings, the Hinister of Mines and Energy who has shifted his ground so often? 'lR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PflP.!IER MOORJ:s :Mr. Speaker, without the added remarks it is fine, but the ~!inister of }fines and Energy has stated the government's position very clearly here this afternoon, But there are just a fe•1 things I think that if it is for the edification of the nember or for the House, it should be clarified.

First of aii,that before any decision is made regarding power from Labrador and how it is going to be dealt with, the ilouse will be discussing it. Hn. SNALL1100D: Before a decision is taken? PPillHIEn HOOP-ES: Before the decision is taken, of course. Because ·.rhat is said here I think it is of such major importance to this Prov:lnce that ' I think it is absolutely critical that­ HR. s1-lALLWOOD: Would the han. gentleman allow me?

Does this mean that the House would <i:ebate it before the decision is taken by the government,or does he mean that the government would take a decision subject to the confirmation of the House? Which is it? PRmHETl HOORES : HR . S!"ALU:OOD: Before any agreement is signed with Quebec. Not signed but w~de, made but not signed, signed if the !louse approves, which is it? This is terribly important. !.'REHIER ~100RES: It will be fully uiscussed in the House to make sure that everyone is on side. And hopefully what we tvill decide as a government will be on side with the House. MR. NEARY: Before the government - ~!R.

SMALUlOOD: Before it is final? PREMIER MOORES: Before we commit ourselves to any third party it will be discussed here. 6152

April 29, 1 ')76 Tape 2271 IB-1 ur. S}IALLHOOD: If the hon. gentleman will allow me. The normal practice :Is for a govern~ent to deal with a government or deal t·rHh a corporation or ,.,ith an individual and coroe. to a tentative arreement subject to debate and confirmation by the House. Is that wh~t the hon. fentleman ~eans? Hhat I am saying is that there will be government to govermrent nep:otat:!om; as there are now, ~·r. Spe;:o.ker, and after those ner,otiati om: have coMe to the stap.e t~here a possible agreement cap be Rip:necl H tvHl he fully debated here in the Rouse. Before it i s signed?

Pl'nf!F.r ~·nrwF s : Yes . 1~. P~BF~TS: · Refore the government is co~itted? PREMIER ~OOP£S: Yes. }fP .• SMALL!.!OOD: Colll1"5ttecl sub .1ect to approval of government? Yes. S:!r,with due respect on t~e semantics,there are a few other thinp;s I would like to say. ThE' "inister of J'ines and '~'nergy has already staten that not one square inch of Lab rador. w:l ll he sold nor w:!ll the boundary br chanr,erl. That is a fact. Sf'l~o/. . H0~1. 1'E''Ef.T'S: Hear, hellr!

Pl'E ' 'IEl' · ~·no!IES: If the power from T.abrador is developed it ~rill he developed fe-r the benefit of the people of this Province in Labrador ;md e-n the Island

part 0f the Province and not for the benef:l .t of any other prov:lnce but pr:i111arily for ourselves, That in i. tseJ f is in the ran-'ldi «n i.n terest. I •·rould also J :Ike to say that hopefully a final position should be eRtab] i sh e rl aR far as this government is concerned, because nep:ot:latfons of 't:Ms s ort c;o.n go on and on and on.

Within the next tvo to three Peeks,at the outs1.de- J. w:!ll be seeing Premier Jlourassa T'lext '·~eek . in ntta wa- in three weeks hopefully ,,•e-will be :!.n a position to state what NeHfoundland is preparecl to negotiate (full stop) • As opposed to carryinr; on ancl on and on by months and by years and w:l.th the sort of thinr. lle have seen this last month. ~·7e v Ul have our final posi ti.nn Pstahl !shed. 1-Je t>r:lll have contacted the federal 6153

T:~pe 2271 T.ll-2 rove1'"n!'1ent t<" see i.f t.her£' 111'"e nipe] :lneR t.h:~t c<~n p;o inter-provincial, , .• 1,y transmi.,Ri<"n anil C'ner"V cannot r:o inter-provincial ,aR <"prosed to r;winp: a hrover, the on1v hroh'r on your bounc'lilrv. l·IP PiU tilll·inr nhout - ,,ncl J aJlo"' T"ost peorJe ap:ree - a rout th'e contrnc:t il.R H i"'. There has been no c:ontr:1ct :fn recent years t.hat has heel) for sixtv-five years ~·dth no reopener, and see ,,•hnt can or cannot he clone.

Sir I hope it does not r,et to th:ls stape,lJUt tl,ere ,,..e. a lot of things tl1at the government can flo t·7h:lch ""nnot he cliRc:nsserl at this ti1'1e,even inchtrlinp: sugpestinr: to the 01 ympi.c: r:ominisfd on that they r:et enough candles to hold their e"ent. Hear, hear! 'IT'. S"AJ.T.1·'f'Y'n: ·~r..

Speaker, may J ask the W!nister of ~<i.nes ;mc1 ".nergy "'hether trerP was any rlj scussion betueen him and the (1uehec Tl'iniRtPr of the 1<1ea of 11 ioi.nt dPvelorment of the ~,·ater pm•7Pr that c~<n hC' i'eve] opl?fl from rivers ori rin;~tinr; 1n onr T.ahr~<"or hnt fJ ovinp. into OnPbPc,nnr renuirinr eitl1er ,,.1,at 0,uehec. iR askinr, th11t thev <>E't the 7,500 Tl'ile" of terr:ftory,or lease it or. huy 1t or RO!re ~:ind of .irdnt effort.

Tn otlH•r 1'0rciR :Is there any eli SCURI"i'on or thour,ht jn the government th:ot tl-<P reVf~lopTTtent. of th?t por,•er mi!!ht hf' 2 jo:int thinr hy hoth provinces as indeed at the moment the develop111ent of the Ppper ~',nrch:!ll iR 11 ,;oint thinr betveen the two provinces, hecnuse the t~·o provh>ces C1li'T1 Clmrchill F::oll s, the rpper Churchi J1? Ts the same icl~n in the rovern~ent's mind perhi1.pS with rer,arcl to those rivers ori"inl'ltinr: .;n L11hnvlor. but fJm·!inr throurh nuehec: ;mel emptying 1r.to the North Shore, c:>mpty1.nc int::n the C:nl f of St.

T.a•·•rence . .::::_ SP!\Al~"l": '~'he hon. l'ini st<>r of 1-'1.nes and F.nerpy. HP rrnS'RTl"; ''r. Spenl·er, thi"' rovemMent hi1.s ahr11vs hel'n prep11reel to cnnsicler .io.;nt 0eveJopr'r'E'nt of tl•ose rivers if it is in the interests of hoth province« to do th<>t. ThRt h::os hPen eli scnRsen in rener<>l torms. ~ut as T s,,;r1 here a few !'l:!nutes ago, ,,•hat >'r. Cournoyer Rll)'f'estecl vesterdav vJ<OS not <'n" .io:!nt c1evelopment of these rivers, hnt that Oue""" should purclo11sc the land or be granterl the l;md and 6154

llpr:!l 29, 1976 Tape 2271 IB-3 ~.,, f'ROSTITf,: develop H thel'1se1.ves. '-'1". l>OBP.l'TS: 'T'here is no difference between that and changing the boundaries, is there? ~- CROSBIE: caJled. ~'1'. ROBE"TS: Yr . f'T>OSRTF.: Well they wotud be subject to our sovereirnty so If the constitut:!.on calls for it. So, l'r. Speaker, ~re are ~rUling to tli scuss that kind of dcvelopwent but it has not been discussed. ~'P. Sl'A1.U.TOOn: They know that? "'!1. CROSI'ITF.: Yes, they have been told that. HP. S~'ALV-Yoon: They knm,, that a joint develop!l'ent is feasible, that the r:overnment t~ould consider it? >'1'.

CPOSRIF: Yes, that is right. ~'R. NEARY: ~·r. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the Premier. 1m . SPEAKER: T am sorry. The han. member for ~urgeo-Bay d'F.spoir. ~!J'. SOO•ONS: l'r. rhairman, I ~·ould like to come back to an aspect of what the minister said in answering the initial question when he ~de reference to '·'r. Gournoyer and •·r. Cournoyer's having made some publ:l.c statements apparently contrary to a mutual agreement that the two ministers had undertaken. I :ill' wondering,in vie'"' of this,if the min:l.ster would in<Hcat ·e to the House "hat he feels the problem may be.

Has it a strict case of the fluebec minister having gone out and done some thin~ cnntra .ry to the 'Mutual agreel'lent,or ~·as there a language prohlem? 1-/h:~.t, for instance, "a.s the language of d:! scussion at the conference?

Has the m.in:lster cleal ing through a translator or ~ras one of the mi11isters dealing thro\tgh a translator1 The larger question really which I 11111 wanting to ask here is is the mi~lster, ?•r. roumoyer,speaking for the government of l!uehec in the opinion of our minister or is he in some way :;;pouting off some rather persona] opinions '1-'hich may or may not represent the consensus o£ the ~overnment of Quebec on the matter? 6155

April 29, 197 ti Tape 2272 PK - 1 l!R. SPEAKER: ------- The bon. Hinist:er of Mines and Energy. HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, it is difficult for me to spectulate as to why Hr. Cournoyer does the things he does or acts as he does. But it was specifically agreed that we would say nothing about our conversation except,since I knew he was going to say the boundary had been discussed, I said I was certainly going to say that it had been repudi.ated, but that we would not discuss the alternatives. No<J why he went on to discuss other things I do not know.

As to whether he is speaking for the Government of Quebec,I can only ass tune that, because a month ago Premier Bourassa - MR. NEARY: If he is the minister you must assume that. '·!R. CROSBIE: Well 1 you must assume that,in the first place, the speaks for the government, and because it had been agreed by Premier Bourassa and our own Premier that they will come back tdth their positions at a meeting as soon as it could be agreed on, so therefore T presu1Jle that this is llr. - MR. NEARY: That is typical. l1R . CROSBIE: - ! do not want to interrupt the member for LaPoile (}1r. }Teary).

I can only assume that this is and must be the position of the Government of Quebec. And now as to why ~lr. Cournoyer wants to discuss these patent matters publicly in this manner I do not know. :-:R. SPEAKeR: I will recognize the hon. gentleman for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir for a supplementary and then the hon. member for LaPoile. Hould the minister first of all indicate the language of the discussion at the meeting, was it French or English? r1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Hini ster of Hines and Energy. '(R. CP-OSBIE: Hr. Speaker, the language of our discussion was Fnp,l ish since I am not fluent in French.

I did meet a chap 1~ho said, - 'Je <Jere .askinp; directions and he said,"You go to the left." And I saicl, "You mean allez gauche." And he then came back at me with a rapid fire of F-rench spe e:::h anc' I had to pretend to understand, and I got lost. 1 fR. SHALLHOOD: It is something like you '"ould do. IIR. CROSBIE· So the y were conducted in English, but Mr . Cournoyer understands English very well, he is quite fluent and he had three 6156

April 29, 197n Tape 2272 PK - 2 Hr. Crosb~e: officials with him, and I had three officials all of whom understand Enr,lish, Hr. vlally Reid, ' lr. Dave Uercer of Newfoundland and Labrador Tlydro,and Mr. Steve Millan of the Department of }iines and Energy so I me.an it is clearly understood. MR. SIMMONS: And now for my supplementary. MR . SPEAKER: I said that I would recognize the hon. member for LaPoile after since it is getting close to the end of the Question Period. HR . SIMMONS: Hr. Speaker, I have not put my supplement yet. AN !ION . , !El·IBER: Shame: MR. NEARY: Hy question, Mr. Speaker, is to the hon.

Premier. Now that Bronfm~ns have taken over Trizec would the hon. Premier indicate to the Ilouse if the government now is in the process,or if there are any negotiations going on with Trizec or the Bronfmans to enter into an agreement to rent office space in the downtown proposed office building~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Not to ·my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, I would say that the proposal is no more or less swallowable nowthan it was then. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to get back to the IUnister of Hines and Energy on a supplementary to what I said.as soon as the meeting is over bet1~een the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition. My supplementary really, would the minister feel that if the future discussions l.tere taking place with the head of the Quebec Government rather than the Minister,}1r. Cournoyer,that we could expect different results then he is obviously having with the Minister,Mr. Cournoyer? ':R. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Mines and Energy. MR . CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker,that is a difficult question to answer .

I think it would be wronE; to say whether you are optimistic or pessimistic about any discussions. But it is often true,however , that after the ministers have met and taken certain positions, then the Premiers get together,and heing the elder statesmen that they are, 6157

April 29,19711 Tape 2272 PK - 3 Mr. Crosbie: they come to some arran~ement. That could be true in this case. I know in our own case here we have got a real statesman. And that it may he that Mr. Bourassa would be as statesmanlike as our own Premier. So it is still - ~IR. NEARY: You have got a real charmer in this Premier. I do not know what they have in Quebec. ~IR. CROSBIE: Hell,he is not as charming as our hon. Premier. nREHIF:R ~fOORES : On a point of order, 1~r. Speaker! lffi. NEARY: ~r. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Premier, Sir. HR.

SPEAKER: I should point out that this will be the last question and ans<ver. MR. NEARY: ----- So far this session I have put 137 questions, ~vritten questions,on the Orner Paper and I have only gotten t~Jenty- six ar.s't..rers a ~lR. CROSTI IF..: On a point of order, ~lr. Speaker. 'ffi • SPEAKER : --- - - - A point of order has been raised. ~lould the Premier - HR. CROS'BIF:: This is not a question, this is a speech. The bon. gentleman is tellinrt the Tlouse how many questions he has put on the Order Pnper. HR. ~lFARY: No I am asking the Premier when I can expect to - lffi. SPEAKER: Order, please! ~'n.

NEARY:· ---- - - - get the answer5. rm. SPEAKER: Order, please! lJhen a point of order comes up even if the answer seems self-evident presumably it is not supposed to he left dnnglin::i. The hon. minister is quite correct in saying that the

preamble must he as brief as possible and not give information. l'm•ever the hon. p;cntleman has not finished the sentence to my recollection, so I would have no way of lmmving whether he was attempting to give unnecessary inforrrk~tion or a

preamble. MR. NEARY: Hell I am asking the Premier <vhen I can expect to get ;m ansHer to 111 questions out of 137 that I placed on the Order 6158

April 29, J97f' Tape 2272 ~. Neary: Paper so far this session, '"hen the other 111 questions will be answered1 l·~ • SPBJ'J<F.R: The hon. Premier. "REi'IIF.R l!OORFS : 'lr. Speaker, the questions will be answered PK - 4 immediately upon the information being found out and being able to passed on. 6159

·'rrn 29. l'l7fi 1':1pe 2273 IB-1 llefore c"lJ inl! nrclers of the nay:,anr'1 if I ~m rir,ht in presuminr; t),p_t I lo':ill nl't he ~jven not:lce of any further questions pursuant tl' tl1e Stpnr'inr 0rr'er •qit]-1 respect to the five o 'c:J od: rroC'.eclure, and the only reason I say that is in case the House is r,oinr into ron'l"ittee not to h:we jnterrupt :It at f:lve o 'clod: 1anc' T prcsnme T 1'11' ripht tl1er, l>ec:mtse nohorly h~ts i.nc'icPtec1 to tl1c contrnry 1 then J conJ c1 info_rm hon.. 11'.eT"~)el"S nm~ of tl1e l"atters to he c'ehated at rive-thjrty.

T l1:>vr. l•een riven noticE' of four - anc' of course the StancHnp. nrc1er :mr the til'le av~jl11hle onJy 1:dll ~llow for three to he actually ,,.,],,teti, not f.or notice for onlv three,but for three to be actually dcbatecl. J received tvo f"roro tbe saroe hon. re!l'ber, the Le:uler of the "pposjtion and I ro?ve conRulte<'f with hi.m as to which of the tt.•o re vouli1 prefPr since only one of them could he debated,an<'f he has inc1icate<'f his '-':Ish anc' th«t. if' the one ••hich w:!Jl be se1ecte(f.

The threP J11:'ltters are: The first one of wh:lch no.ti.ce was p,hren TI'e on ~priJ q hy the !ton. menber for l.:<JPoi 1 e. (~'r. Neary) has to neal lv:lth roattPrR <Jr~sin~ out of his question to the }'inister of l·'ines 11nd Enerry hut jn the ~l)~ence from the 1-louse of the ~'in:! ster of Justice,~·ith respPct to the hon. merober's Clttestion. with respect to the Provinci"J ro!T'panies ~.ct ~mc1 the permisR:ive aspect of it whereby 1 m.ryP.rs' secretaries' mtl'le!l may be nsecl in the rep:istration of companies. ~·nt js the first watter.

The second Datter, notice of r,•hich was riven me on April 13 by the hon. member for ~<Jrbonear (}'r. r. >'oores).ileals •·rith a rmeRtjon he ash:•n of the hon. ~'inister of "'r1ncflt:fon ~-dth respect to the pol j_cy for upr,ri1ninr; or Y"anpm-rer trpjpin~ !l.t t11e C:arbonear n:fstrict "ocational School. '!1-,e thirc1 !!latter of •·•hi.ch J w"s riven notice toi'~y is one fro!" the hon. T-e~rf'r of the 0pposition arising fro!l' a Cl1Jestion to the lJon. Hinister of ~{ines an<'f l'nerroy and deals with the recent ner;otiations PHh the nuebec ll'inister with respect to T,nhrac'or.

So those arP the three matters •·•'licl• "'ilJ hP deb11tecl in that order at five-th:l rty. 6160

t'pril 2", 197n Tape 2?73 IB·-2 !J""E"~ ()p TilE n;'Y: 'ln mot<on of the Tion. l'jn:!ster of Justjce, a hjl1, "!In Act To 1\mend The reristration nf neec's Act," read a first thre, on1erecl reMl " sec-onrl time on tol'lorroH. (Bi ll ~: o. 40) nn !"otion of thf' Pon. l'i.nister of Justice, a hill, ''An Act "espectjn~ nueen 's rounsel and Precedence At The Bar,'' reac' a first time, orc1erec1 rear. " >"econd tjme on to!"'orrm-·. (llill No. !,1) 6161

April 29, 1~'~7fi Tape No. 2274 On motion of the hon. ~~inister of Finance, a bill, '.'An Act To Authorize The Province To Undertake, Organize And r•anage Lottery Schemes," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrml. (Bill No. 42). nn motion that the House go into CommitteE! of Supply, "r. Speaker left the !':h::dr. '<11.. CHAIR~'AN: "1'. SH"'f1NS: COl!!'ITTF.:F.: The hon. member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir. "r. Chairman, t intend on this point to be very brief this afternoon and I am looking fonlard to hearing so!'le of the ministers rr.sponses to matters ~lhi.ch have been raised.

I uould like just to re'-enforce S<"'me things I said earlier about thP particular need for programmes for the physieally handicapped. T exclude from those co1!1111ents persons Hho are blind and who are deaf because,as I believe we <1re al.l aware, adequate proRrronmes exist here in St. John's in the case of the deaf student, in Halifax in case of the blind student. J run thinking of the physically handicapped otherwise, other than the tlTO cater;ode,s I have just excluded.

And I feel verv strongly that we ought to address ourselves to some kind of institutional ~are programme for these people, a programme wh:l.ch unulrl have to,•o obvious prongs to it, the provision of nursinr, c:tre, hecause t 11ese penwns not being mobile themsE'l ves"l having to depcncl either on a ,,,heel chair or on the assistance of another ir1cljvidnal to !'lOve from one place to another, these people have other related pr.ohlems sucl1 <1~ the problems related to t0ilet, t~c pro h l Pm~ rE'.b .tr>rl to dreAsi.ng and very often that kind of thi.np,, :md :In many casr" the nature of the diseasP ~·rhich :!_n the first p] acl'.' created tht> hm'!dicapped, thP handicap, I should say, these rl1seases requ:l.re some extent of regular administration of drur,s, for e;:11mple, various 1 : 1.nr.~ s of dressines and that kind of fh1nr;.

And for these reasons, ''r. Cl>:tirman, the provision of nursing 6162

'.·ril 29, 1 "7 l'np e No . 2~74 N' .. - ., "1~1 \t no .. , thnt nursin g service is bein g pr ov1.dccl by the parent or by sornc rnem'>cr of t:tc iml'lediate f."ltlily or cet'tainl y at the expense of the fnl'lily . Very fel~ fa1r.ilies have the fu':lc!s, the uhere~,• it hnl, tho resources financially to pay outside nursin g hel p ancl !'O •:hat is happen:l.np 1:'1 r.tnst cases is they a rc providing it rather inadeq uatel y themse lve s . I say, ''r.

Chairman, 'inadequately' not to critici ze wha t in hut to plend the cause a little further because these parents, ''hile good par entn a..<! is \d.tnesscd by their c0111passion for these p~ople over the years and t heir continuing care of them. SOI"P. I:!ON. MEHBERS: Oh, oh! HR. CIIAt~"AN: Orde r, please! Order , please !

I would like to point out to hon . memhers that ~~e noise level of informal conversation :I s ~ri v in~ some<·hat so i.f they would allow the hon . rtember for 'lur~eo - Bay d 'Espoir to have the floor in relative silence~ ?lease . '1'. >'liJ'PHY: I do not kn011 if there is any thin g wronr. with the sound but it is very difficult to hear. ' 'F . ~t'1J'!I)NS : Yes , my mike is apparently on, t he light is on nt any rate. ·~. l~PHY: lt does not seem to be carrying , you know. ''lL SIH!'ONS: Ye:l . 1\ll ri.~bt. Thank you , Hr . Chaim.an .

Just co continue briefly, I was speaking in particular - can the minister hear? 1 'fTl . ''URI'1!Y: It is bette r now. '"' c:;p~'(INS: 1 ~··M s pea kint: in particula r of 6163

April 29, 1976 Tape ~275 Mr. Simmons: the way in which those parents have looked after or provided nursing care over the years without really being particularly qualified to do so. I am not at all being critical of what PK" 1 they have done. But I am wanting to plead the cause that proper nursing care be made available. That is one prong of the programme. The second prong would be what is pertinent to the estimates under debate right now, the educational prong.

I pointed out in an earlier participation in this Committee that I had at hand examples in one community in my district where there were five children,helonging to three families,who have never attended school although a test had shown that they are in terms of intelligent quotients and so on are quite normal people, <1nd indeed the reason why they have never gone to school is that they could not get their physically. All five of them had been confined to cribs for their entire lives t~hich range age-wise from nine to sixteen years.

And, as I say,the only reason that they have not gone to school is because they could not physically get there. Now if we could visualize an institution,or I would advocate two or three smaller institutions rather than have one large one say here in the city, I could see perhaps one here in the city or somewhere on the Avalon to serve the irrmediate area, and the large population numbers which you have here. I could see one in Central Newfoundland somewhere to embrace the area,say,Jrom Bonavista Bay in the East to l!hite Bay or Green Bay in the West to Hermitage Bay in the South to embrace - MR.

MURPHY: The hon. member would prefer to bring them to Grand Falls and board them in there rather than - MR. SIMMONS: Oh, yes. Well again, you know, it would be politically smart to be saying you should put one in Bay d'Espoir,and one in Hermitage,and one in Harbour Breton,and one in Burgee and that kind of thing. But I believe this issue is one that we should be looking at more in terms of how the need can best be met. You know, in 6164

Apr il 29, 1976 Tape 2275 PK- 2 Mr. Simmons: Bay d'Espoir, in t~e road system directly connected into Bay d'Espoir) let us talk about St. Alban's and Bay d'Espoir, the Connaigre Peninsula, Hermitage and so on and so forth as far East as the toad system goes there,Pool's Cove, you are only talking 12,000 population altogether. And, you know, the law of averages says you are probably talking twelve or fifteen people of the type that I have described . And it just waul~ defeat the whole purpose if we began advocating one of these in every one of our districts.

What I would like to see is the minister and his colleague, the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation,look at the problem I have raised from a realistic standpoint and say, well if we cannot put thirty or forty of these around the Province there is no need. It might be good politics, but it would be a sheer waste of money. But could we put one in the Avalon somewhere?

Could we have one in the Grand Falls-Gander area somewhere,which would include obviously provision for people from my area Bay d'Espoir, and then could we put one in the Corner Brook-Stephenville area which would take in, ~-'' my own case, people from Burgee, Ramea and then Port aux Basques and perhaps the Great Northern Peninsula too for that matter. These are just th,oughts. But the overall point that needs to be made is that I believe at relatively small costs we could provide two or three relatively small institutions which whose function would he educational, one, and .two, nursing care for those people.

I would further suggest, Mr. Chairman, and this is all very much off the top of my head and would,obviously,such an undertaking of this would require a fair amount of study and research first, but I would further suggest that a consideration for this kind of undertaking would be the proxmity of good hospitals, and when I say 'geed' I am not implying the others are bad, but I am suggesting 1good' in the sense of adequate to cater to most of the requirements of those particular people. 6165

April 29, 1976 Tape 2275 PK - 3 Mr. Simmons: Now the Gander-G rand Fall!! nrea, of course , have regional hospital systems , as do the Corner Brook-Stephenville area , as do the St . John ' s area. Hence another good reason for lookin g at those particular three areas for a nursing-educational institu t ion for the particular group of people I have been describing. I think , 'lr . Chairman, that it is one of the most pressing needs that we £ace in this Province at this time. I believe it is a sad commentary on, not only governments, but on all of us as a conununity .

It i s a sad co~m:tentary that uhile we have organizations , volunteer organizations,we have governmen t agencies, we have agencies of all kinds that address themselves lite rally to eve ry kind of probl em we have , and legitimiltely so , hu t I am thinking ir. particular of the eye clinic that was down here in front of the Building some weeks nt;o . We hnve a mechanism now for diagno sing possible eye problems , you know, alno $t befo r e dtey occur or when they are in their earlier stages . l~e have all :tinds of fund raisings for many worthwhile cause s , I ~~ thinkine of Red Cross and C.N.I .B. 6166

April 29, 1976 Tape 2276 IB-1 .J'n . SI ~ 0. S : and various others. I a~ not citing these to be critical. I am saytnr, they are all very worth-v>hile causes and it is a good commentary on the direction of our concern that we h;we these l'lechanisll's and these organization ann these collection ar;enc:fes. But, ~'r. Chainnan, the one - S0'1E HON. ~'IE"BJCP~: 0h, oh! t'll. DOODY: Is not this poetic justice! ~ '1'. sn<r-•bNS: 1'r . rhairrnan, I do not know why I have to compete with meetings in the !louse every time I try to get on my feet - }'1' . NEARY : You are so clulJ, and borinp; and long-wjncled - MR.

SI ~~ S : ~r. Chairman, the people ~~o paracle their dignity for th:ls House or their concern for this House should at least shovi their concern for the dignity of the House by keeping ouiet once in a wl.1:J.le. I am fed up with trying to speak over two or three fellows having private conversations which are very J oud conversations. I wish '1-'r. rha:frman Hould rule on that point of order. MR. . CRAIRJoW' : Order, please! The issue has come up very recently in th:fs regarcl and I would ask hon. ~embers to pay due regarc to it. ''P.. SIMHONS .: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. tm . NF.AFY: A point of order, Mr.

Chairman. I would like to remind Your Honour of the Standing P.ules of this House concerning repetHion and tedious debate and ask Your Honour to enforce that rule too. 0ri!er, pJ.easP.! I have listened with due attention to the bon. member's remarks and I did not detect any undue repetition or irrelevance. The hon. wember for Burr,eo-Bay d'Espoir. "Tl ~D'~-'0N S: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I v1as sayinp: I bP]ieve it is a sail commentary- and J say this for those who are int e resteil, l'r. r ha.irtllan.

J rea) ize th:tt some people may have no concern in sorr e thing as uni!ram a tic as phvsically handicap ped people t-•ho have no access to eilucati onal fac11 :!.ties. I recognize that possibil:! ty "r. r:hairma:n. nut for those of us :!n this rommittee who have some 6167

April 29, 1976 '!'ape 2276 ~'1:'. SP'l''flNS: c.dncern ahout sowething that undramat:l c, not "erv vote gettinr,, t•r. C:ll.'i:frl'lan, I ap;ree,hut my n]ell is f.or us to stop hei.nF; cl;zzled by the ~rawatic and the character assassination type of approAch in this r.ommi ttee and pet clmm to brass tactics as compassionate l1uman hei.ngs. lfT'. NEAl'Y: Phi!t l'lhout thP Jetter concerninp. the man :fn ~'ural nevelopment? Is that character assassination? ~~- srn•nN~: "r. r.hairman' at the appropriate tit!le T Rhall de a] IB-2 ·~:!th that m"tter ,.~hich has heen raised by the member for I.aPoiJe ("r. t:cary).

It waf' not character assassination. llut, Mr. rh<drl'lan, let us :fn the nal"'e of goodness for once try and treat a compassionate matter wHh some compassion 'Instead of the old stage acting that I am s:fck and t:lrecl of from certain people in th:fs C:mrmittee, sick and tirecl of it. Tf you 11re not acting, if you are not hurH.ng character ass11ssinat:fon type thintrs 11t people 1you ar.e not doing ;mvthing an)' good.

Hell th11t is not wy attitude of how this Committee should oper11te, "r. rh,irman. '[ "'<'uld ]:Ike to m;tke a plea.if :It is possible ~odthout having :fnterrupt:!on.'< fro111 sOI"P. people 1orhose rninrls "'ould force them to elwell on .the more nramati c l'>nt 1 e!'s helrful, tf I could have somP r.o­ Ofleration fro!" tr.eRe pe<'pl e T ~·mnld J 1ke .1ust to 1'\ake ~'~ plea - ~·n NEArY: lVith or •dthout a band? ''r. C:ha:ln:um, it is not ,,,orth 11 response. '"'. )')()OJW: The banrl. ''" <;T''HONS: l'r.

C:h;d =an, I say to the }'jni ster of Finance, whom 1 aw placl to see hac'Y. in the T{ouse apain, for h:i.w-how coul<l you deny h:lm e hanrl at any til"e at all. J\t any time he ~rants to rent ll'Y hancl he c....n h~ve :It free of charge. '~'he story of my l:ffe. l'r. rl'>airm<J.n, I guess this is not the time to plead the ca11se for the phys:i raJ ly hand:! c.apped - fiN WIN. }'E~'lll\1': '~'a] k about music schools and that stuff. 6168

AprH zq, 19,76 Tape 2276 IB-3 "P. SI'l!''ONS: Yes. A music school for one member and bands for that saMe me!T'ber. J'er.haps I should be making a pJea, l"r. Chairman, for the not so well off in other ways than physically for other mernhers 1 or one other member. ~r. r:hairman, I 'muld nevertheless l ne just to rei te~rate t!1is point before sitting do'm, 6169

April 29, 1976, Tape 2277, Page 1 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: that we give some very deep consideration to the matter that I have raised insofar as the physically handicapped people are concerned. I would like to see some initiatives taken. I do not expect the minister to stand up and say they are going to start it tomorrow morning, but I would like to see some preliminary work being done. For instance, can anybody tell us, do we have up-to-date statistics at this moment as to how many people we are really talking about in this category?

I am particularly mentioning the school age group - the five to sixteen, say- how many are in this category who could attend either a regular school programme if they could physically get there, or two, could attend a special education or TMR class if they could physically get there? How many are in those two groups of individuals that I have talked about?

I would like to know that and I would like to know - and again I know the minister cannot answer this off the top of his head,but I would like him to undertake to get some answers for us if he could - how much would be required if we talked about one, or two, or three such institutions? Now, Mr. Chairman, before I got the series of interruptions a few moments ago I was on to the other factors that I think are important to the case at hand. I believe, for instance, these institutions ought to be close to large well-equipped hospitals such as we have in Corner Brook, St.

John's, Grand Falls, Gander and so on, because of the particular need that these types of people would have. I believe also it might be worth considering to have these institutions located either in proximity to or as an actual part of a regular school. Because there is another set of needs here that need to be accentuated, that we should not beyond what is possible under these situations, under the circumstances we are talking of, we should not seek to isolate those people any further from the mainstream of society, and from the mainstream of the educational process. I could visualize, for example, Mr.

Chairman, that we could just by the provision of dormitory facilities 6170

April 29, 1976, Tape 2277, Page 2 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: - and it is not quite that simple - but dormitory facilities and related facilities such as the dining room and the nursing clinic and some special care rooms that might be needed here, but I could visualize that with the provision of certain minimal facilities attached directly to an education complex; an existing education complex, you might be able to provide the type of care an~ programme I am talking about that would require the very active indulgence and co-operation of a school board.

But I do no believe that would be difficult to get under the circumstances we have been talking about. "'r. Chairman, (Extraneous noise.) MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR . SI~ON S: ~r. Chairman, I do not particularly want people to stand up in this Committee and talk about austerity as it relates to this particular suggestion of mine. I am aware of austerity. I am aware of restraint and that kind of thing.

But perhaps in a year when we cannot do great things financially, perhaps this is the year to take up the challenge that I have been talking about and look around and say, "What can we do without a lot of money?" Let me throw out one or two suggestions, Mr. Chairman. The government is talking about closing down some hospital beds.

While I will not get into the wisdom of doing that - I have some views on it,and we will say them at the appropriate time - but if there are to be some surplus facilities around as a result of the government's closure of hospital beds, is it possible­ I do not know, I am asking it off the top of my head - is it possible that some of these facilities,rather than be allowed to lie dormant, could be adapted to suit the need that I have outlined in the last fe\> minutes? That is one possibility. Or, Mr.

Chairman - I wish the Minister of Tourism were in the Bouse at this moment because I believe it is under his department the subject of Heritage Village comes. Is that correct? AN HON. EHBER: Yes. 6171

April !7, 1976, Tape 2277, Page 3 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: It is , yes. I understand - and this is quite unoff iciAl and quite informal - but I undei:stand that when the matter of a Twenty-Fifth Anniversary gift from the Government of Canada to the Covernment of Newfoundland and Labrador was first discussed that there we•e two possible proposal _s as to the form that gift should take. Qne of these was the Heritage Village concept . I understan d the other related to the very subject I am talking about, 6172

Tape ~o . 227S N~' - l t':e mnttm: of providinl! some in!tti.tutil'n for hnndicappecl ncople. "fl" .• f':T'OS,TF.: "~"he fedct:al gpvernment ·.dll nssist them. )'1'. Si'"'mlS: Th~ "inistcr of ''ines and Enerr,y says the f erlcral r.overn .... ent Hill assis t them . 1 see . no I understand fron tha r.~iniR tcr 'R comm'lnt that this government made representation along t~osc lines? 'fil. CROS!llf.: '!o. :~o . You see there were a number of po:;sibili tics rlis cusr.cd.you lmow>tmd this is what the federal government came Uf' 1dth 8 SUftftCStiOn - '"!!. Sl'ft'I'\!'!S : The Herita~c Villaga . Yes I see.

The ~'inis ter of '!ines, (or the record, indicates that {t was the federal :_-.ov<i'rnr:Jent that cane up with the Her itage Villa~e as the p roposal for the form the g 1ft should tal:e . "( ~·As ?U.'!hinr for a marina . •m <;J)'J''O~S: T do not blame. the ?'in is ter of Fin:mce for pu.shing for "arinn Holyrood. I think he has got his !lands full Hith the narina he t.s j:\oinr, to have out there,but that is another story .

"r. i.h:tirman, at any rate I want to ask the question of the r.omm1 ttec and of the minister s directlv involv ed :!.n the subject ! :1m r&isinr , T ~·ant to 11sk whether t~e Heritage Villay,e concept , ns exciting 8$ it iR in ~ny ways, mightrot be reviewed . I think ~<:ll are talkinp, $1 million ,nre we? ~~ . r.ROSBIE: More than that. TI1~ ori r,inal fi.gure t·ras ~1 million •~ as it? SO'!f. HON . l'El-!B f.RS: Oh , oh~ Yc!', T 1r.ean.

Yc,; . <;cvl'r;~l million is expected to he used for these tourist 'l.nf.omat1on centre.:; and ~l nillion towards the Heritaye \'1llage. 1ut the l'cdtaS<e Village rnay cost SlO million, Sl 2 l'dllion, !:14 MUlion . The ~iltion is the federal government ' s undertaking? ~rde r, please ! It has heen brouy.ht en my attention that p,rac1o ten nnn elev<.'n students from St . '1ichae l ' s Pentec ostal High 6173

April 29, 1976 Tape No. 2278 N!-' - :! !-!1'.. CHA TRll.'\'11: in Arnold' n Cove ,with teachers in charg.e l1r. Harvey Jackman and Mr. llaxter 1~areham are in the gallery to my left and 1 am sure han. members would like to give them a SO}'E HON. ~'En'El'.S: Hear, hear! ~'11. CTIAIJWA!l: The han. member for nurgeo -Bay d'F:spoir. Thank you, l·'r. Chairman. Let me say in passing that I am certainly delighted to see students from ~.mold's Cove with }!r. Jacknan and his colleague r~r. 1·lareham liere in the !louse. As a former teacher it is always good to see this participation in the House by students.

I hope it ~nll prove <'duational for tl1em.

Jt is good to see them. !'r. r.~a:l rman, I wits talking about the possible diversion nf the funds "'hich bave been made available or would be under certain circumstances made available from the federal government for this Herita!!,e ~'i.llap,e. 1 am just wondering out loud if perhaps it is not the time to see if this money could not be better spent and meet a much more humanitarian need if that money we-re rHvertecl to the cause that I have outlined~ the cause of prnvldinp, educational and nursing care institutions cor the phvsically handicapped student, a student ~~ho is unable tn get to the regular school because of the extremity of his phvsic:al handicnp.

I do not know whether that is a possibility hut it obviously requires some further neg6tiation lvith the federal government. I Hould :,e very, very surprised if the Government of f:anacln turned thumbs dm-m on such a proposal if the government of this Province were strongly in favour of it. I am much in favour of Heritage Villages, "':r. Chairman, I "muld like to see one in this Province. I have seen one or two in other parts of r.anadn, one ln Alherta,T helieve,I have had the privilege of loo!·inr, at closely and it is an exc:l.titl~ concept, there is no ouestion al:>out that.

But I helieve we are talking here, ~·r. Chatrman, <7hen ~~e talk about the scarce dollars which lve }tave at hand, I believe we are talking here really about what l~e ~vould like to have on the one 6174

April 21}, 1976 Tape ~o . 2278 N}l - 3 ~fll . SL'Il''ONS: hand ,and ~1hat we should have on the other hand . If you ask me I belie ve 1~e sho uld have a more adequate ~1ay of taking care of the physical ly hand icnp ped student before we get into •·hat ill es~cntiallv the luxury of a Her i tage Village . ''r . C"hai nnan, fo r the recorc! I just repeat I am much in favou r of Herit age ":lllagcs . I just happen to be even trore in favour of doinr soMething concrete for the physically handicapped student .

I mentioned j ust now in i ntrodu .cing the Heritage Village comments that it •.vall my understanding, but notwithstanding "~>lhat the tli.ni ster cf "incs has tol d t he Committee , I got my information f rom a federal source some months ago,or actually a year and a half a co and i t was my understandinr, that the fede r al people were mullinp. over these two possihili t ics ,a~na others . So i t is certainly worth c hec king out. Hr. Chairman , \lhatevcr the route we should go in terms of finding the money t o pay the bill I believe it is 6175

!lpr]J 29, 1'176 Ta pe 2 27 9 Pl-1 very jmportnnt that t~e appropriate ministers, the ~finister of E~u~at:ion and the l'ini!> ter of nehard li tat ion~ take this p] ea of Mine - and I am not the only one "'ho :is c.oncernec1 ahout :l.t.,"l: rec.op;nil':e -but take th:ls plea on behalf of the p'r.ysically hanc1ic.apped person under very :lrnmec1:1ate aclvisel'lent hec.ause it is one that has been neg)ectec1 far, far too 1 onr and T c'o not think we can po on any ] onger neglect :In~ :f.t. ''r. rh;~irm;m, t'··o other brief points I von]~ like tci make before sitting <1o•m ~'hic.h are unrelated to the matter of the h11n~:l.capped chile!, the hanc1icnppec1 person i!enerally.

I have so!l'e very stronr. feelings about the use of the school facilities in a community context. /1 lot han heen s:ot:IC. ahout this over tl1e years. The l"in:lster himseJ f has heen, as T ''':<S, a superintendent of educ;~_t:!on for some years and he is aw11re~as T am~that there are many and vary:lnp, v:lews of th:!s subject and thflt there are a lot of problemA assC"dated 'v:fth makinp. school fac:llH:ies avail:lble to the co1'1111un:i ty. "'here are aJl k:lnt1s of ar~ments apa]nst Making the school avRjJable.

Rut Jet me Ray, '-'L rhiliT1'!;.n, th11t as an educator for a nlli'lher C"f years I ••as never ah1 e to see, never able to comprehend for one fraction of " second why it ,~s that we had some of the best equipped h11ilr:lnrs ~n the co!I'Munity, often the best equipped, often the only equippecl 1n the community froM a recreation standpoint, for <'~·a,plc, frol" an edncRtional stanc1point. 1 :m thinkinp of the t!c"ttcnt ional teclmoJ or:y, the overhel'!d projectors and the filu> projectors and that kind of thinr..

I have never been Rble to understand for one fraction of a second why these huiJ<'tnp:s had to he locker up at three-thirty jn the nfternoon. I could never see it. I <.>!1> a taxpayer, too. I raise this stlhject nC"l•' particularly hec:nnse J happenec1 to have heen in the commun:lty recently t.•here the old orc1er doe>R not change, "'here there :is still 1 e:ither becau<;e of the ,,,)i]!Tls of t.he pdncipal concerned or the tel'lcher concernerl or the ~d. oo.1 ho:~rcl c:oncernec1, there is still a lock-her-up-at-four .. o'clock attitude ahont the ,,,ho.le thing.

"'hat way "'e save wax on tl1e floors, we save ] Ip,ht, we se~ve a lot of thln~s. 6176

Aprtl 20, 1976 '!'ape 2279 IB-2 ~iR. MTTRPHY: noes the hem. rnemher mean tl1e recreation parts of it or the other part, the ••hole >TOrl<s? l 'P.. SU'l"O NS : 1i.'elJ, the Yinister of Provincial Affairs asker me t~hether I mean _iust the recreation ~~ing. No~I am really tall<inp. :thout the whole complex.

Let us say it this way; if a community need can be l!let bv having that builc1in?, open, why should jt he cJosed? t can tell you examples, and I co not want to be petty about this hut I just tel1 them to clrarnatize the outdated thinking on this sub.iect, I can you of cases where the Women's Institute in a p.iven community js using very substandard facilitles to hold its meetings. In one case 1 am thinking of there is a womens group meeting in what js in everv senfle of the terti' a fire ha7.ard. Why?

Because the htdlrli.ng at>out 300 feet dm.m the road is not available to them because there a-re no janitorial arrangements for after four o'clock. Hhile the ten or. tv.•elve room school sits there nicely locked up avai]able only to vandals, the women sit up the road almost risking their lives. These women are the mothers of the youngsters who go to that school. Hho are we protecting, and from whom?

I can reco?,nize that the administrator who is concerned abo~t runni.ng a tight ship finds it easier to turn the key at four o'clock than he c'!oes to have to come back the next morni.nr, and find perhaps an Mh tray full of cigarette hutts or find a t>it of paper on the floor. I can find that it goes against the grain for that administrator. It just l!'ip.ht hurt his sense of routine. I say, you knov.•, "To heck with his sense of routine." I have seen too many t'acil:lt~es, particularly schools, run for the co[lvenience of the ac'lmin:l. str;~.tor.

It is time-and 1 am not talking about the majority, ~'r. rhairman. ~'Y comments of a moment ago should never be interpreted as being critical of the school pclmin:lstrator generally. The school administrator is ' l il·e the clergyman <mel the teacher and the doctor and the pol :ltician. There are some poorl ones and some bad ones. The only thing that keeps us going in the school situat:l.on is that we have a whole lot more gooc'! ones than we do bad ones. 6177

April 29, l<J76 T:q:>e 2279 IB-3 Rut ,,,e oo ''11ve some people either sittin~ on school boartls or. responsjh]e for the administration of schools who have this very narr.mv attjtude, as I call it, a very narrow attitude about the availab j] ity of school fad lit :!.es to the community. I say make 6178

April 29, 1976 }~R . SI MMONS : Tape 2280 RR- 1 it available to the women's institute, make it available to the boy scouts or the ~irl guides. They are only students under another label, students jn another uniform. If they are being educated in the Boy Scouts rather than in the grade six classroom what is the sin about them meeting in the school building,because they happen to called the scout troop today instead of the grade seven class or whatever? Make it available to the community badminton club. They are the older brothers of the students.

They were last year's students in the same school - or to the parents of the students. Make it available to a local group to organize basketball for adults or floor hockey. So we beat the school up ten years before it would have been beat up. That is fair. I would rather see a school beat up through use than rot through misuse or nonuse. We are all taxpayers. We are all paying the bill. I am not advocating that we open the thing up in the sense that people go in and be reckless about it. I am not talking about that.

Any community recreation programme, any adult education programme as any school programme will use or abuse the facilities depending on the management, depending on the administration. Of course it has got Co be done according to the rules. But the escapist approach is to say, "Let us not do it, let us lock it up at four o'clock and then we will know it will be there tomorrow morning~' Now, Mr.

Chairman, if we were living in one of the oil rich nations of the lfid -East where they have more money than they know what to do with these clays 1we coulcl afford to have an eight to four building and then another four to twelve building. But in Newfoundland where lve have scarce resources, can you think of anything as crazy as absolutely cock-eyed, ridiculous'!' AN HON. MEMBER: Right on. t·IR. SIMNONS: lve have an eight to four building and an after four building. The eight to four building is a beautiful DREE school or a beautiful designed school costing $1 million, $2 million, $3 million.

That is their eight to four building . And the f our to twelve building where the Women's Institute meets and freezes to death or sub j ects themselves to a health hazard or a fire hazard is the old condemned school that is renovated or is a condemned fire 6179

April 29, 1976 HR. SUl}tONS: Tape 2280 RH - 2 hall or the5cout hall that is no longer good for the Scouts. That is what it is. HR. l·filRPHY: Why are they against opening the schools to community groups? NR. SIMMONS: Well, Mr. Chairman~ very often- the question of the Minister of Provincial Affairs - the objections are,in fairness of the people who raises objections, the objections are strongly felt by those who object. It is not a matter of them feeling they are being petty about it. They have strong objections. They do not want the school programmes to be interfered with and that I can see.

I have seen situations, I have seen situations where the community use has been abused. I have seen - I would not name communities - but I have walked into a classroom, not my own or not in my own school, but I have walked into classrooms during the period when I was with the N.T.A,,for example,and you could. not believe what some adults will do when they are wearing another hat. It is amazing.

I say that again, 'wearing another hat; because I have seen parents who would be very, very disgusted if their youngster, first of all, smoked; but secondly,took a cip.arette butt and scrunched it into the floor with your toe. But I have seen that same.fellow who is tonight wearing another hat- he is a member of the ex-club - it is all right for him to do it in the classroom because he is not there as the parent or he is not there as the teacher, he is t:tot there as the student. That is the kind of problem you can run into, the problem of attitude, that jt is okay tonight because I am wearing another hat.

You have that problem too. But I would say, Mr. Chairman, that the way around that is not to lock the door but to place some conditions on the availability of the facility. Now, Mr. Chairman, I was involved for a number of years in the community of Springdale. Springdale, in terms of the use of facilities, community use of school facil1ties 1 is just wide open, absolutely wide open, The principal of the .school, whom I talked to' in the last few weeks on the phone,told me that the only night that the school was not booked on a regular basis was Sunday night. Very often it got booked then for various reasons.

But he had a

schedule in front of him where the school was booked six nights a week 6180

April 29, 1976 Tape 2280 RR - 3 >fR . SIMMONS: for variou s reasons, univ~rsity extension cours es, art courses, variou s community education undertakings, that kind of thing . I believe the answer ~Jithout selling the people sho rt, the people who advocated, witho ut selling them short, I thi nk the answer is to instead of j u.st I tt U sayin g, Let us close t.he door, the answer i s , Row can we open the door and still protect the facility.' ' That ques t ion has not been asked in a lot of communities. 6181

April 29, 1976 Tape 2281 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: Now again I do not know what the department can do, I do not know IJhat the minister can do except in terms of undertaking to change attitudes. That is about all that can be done, I suppose. But it brings me to the other point that I want to raise before sitting down. It is a point that has concerned me as an educator for a good many years, and it is the old question of~who speaks for education? Here 1~e are spending $250 mHl ion on education in this Province, that is what the Province is spending directly.

Now if you were to total up the amounts that boards are spending, you know, which is raising through School Tax Authorities, for example, if you 1~ere ·to total up the amounts that youngsters are spending directly on school programmes of various sorts, their input into basketball uniforms,and that kind of thing; if you were to total up the whole cost of the Newfoundland community of education, you would be talking something far in excess of $250 million I can assure you. Because v.rhat we are considering here is only taxpayers' direct input into it. There are many indirect inputs financially as well.

I am delighted to see my good friend, Reverend Bellemy in the galleries today, and he is quite aware I am sure of what I am saying here now in terms of the overall financial input into education. Reverend Bellemy,as the Committee well knows, works with the School 'Board Federation for the Province. Mr. Chairman; taking that great big figure which is much, much in excess of $ 25r) mill:! on I am sure 1 I believe we have to ask ourselves_all over again,who does speak for education? Is it the N.T.A.? Is it the School Board Federation? Is it the D.E.C.? Is it the Department of Education? Is it the University?

I believe in rhyming off those various institutions, I believe I have really pointe<' to the problem. That is the problem really. There is no other discipline, there is no other area of concern,be it health area of social concern be it health, for example, or recreation, for example, or religion, the church,for example. There is no other area of social concern where we are so fragmented as in education. 6182

April 29, 1976 Tape 2281 PK- 2 Mr. Simmons: When you hear the President of the N.T.A. on the air he is talking about some matters of very legitimate concern to his immediate group, the teacher-welfare issues, salary issues, teacher­ pupil ratio·; He is talking about matters affecting educational programme from the educator's standpoint. When you hear a spokesman for the School Board Federation on the air, he is inevitably talking about the very legitimate need for additional funding, among other things.

When you hear the D.E.C. spokesman on the air he is espousing very legitimately the need for more capital funding for school construction. And so it goes, Mr. Chairman, When you hear the President of the University on, he is lamenting the cut backs in funding as it affects the University. But I believe you get the drift of what I am saying, Mr. Chairman. Everybody in education, and I am not standing out criticizing, I am standing in being a recipient of part of the criticism because I was there too.

We are all in education, it seems, so busy doing our own thing that nobody in the overall is speaking for education, Now perhaps it is because it cannot be done, I do not know. I thought about it for a long tinle, and perhaps it cannot be done. Perhaps it can be done, perhaps that is a weakness we have to live with. But why do I raise the question? I raise it, Mr. Chairman, because in the absence of somebody speaking,in the overall,speaking for education, here is what is happening. It is popular to downgrade the finance need in education.

The most popular thing you can do in any forum in this country, any platform you get on, if you cloak it in the right language, in one audience you would cloak it in the language of the school tax burden, and you will get an applause in that audience. 6183

April 29, 1976 Tape 2282 TB-1 t"T.'. SPir!ONS : f"O :Into another one anc1 you ~,,iJ 1 choose another theme. But whatever the theme, whatever the ]anp,uage cloak may be, you can get puhlic support for rlowngrad:lng the financial of education.

I say "'P have come i.n 1976 to a very serious situation when the one mechani!'m we have evolved as a society, the one mechanism more than any other, namely,the forma] education structure, the one mechanism that can he, not only our econoT"ic hut our social salvation in the ] onr,- tei"l'l - Hell ] et me put it 1 ess dramat:i cally - without that mechanism there is no salvation, econond.calJy or socially.

The one mechanism thl'lt ,.,e haye evclved a!' a soc:lety for really meeting the economic and social neec1s,we are dmmgrac1.:1ng as ll people, ~•e are talk:l.ng out of hoth sic1es of ""r l'louths. 1\s parents w~ are demanding the most in <Jnali.ty edncat:ion and as taxpayers we are getting all worked up hecause i.t is popu] ar to be ~-10rkec:! up on the subject somehow, all worked up to say that we cannot afford it. l'r. Chairman, I say that we can afford it. I say it another way, we cannot afford not to afford it.

I have heard alJ kinds of alJusions inclucling some in this Committee about people Hho are rav:l.ng on about the shocking cost of education. I al'l prone! to live in a countrv, vr. r.hairman, that places so much eMphasis on eclucation. ~~ . ~'lJRPHV : Is the hon. member speaking from an incl:lvi dua.l point of view no~<• or from the government's point of vie,.,? }~. SH'IWJNS : For the ~':ln:lster of Provincial .A.ffai.rs, in the context of what J just said, I am talking about F!;Ovemment 's involvement in education.

I am saying that 1 am proud - I am not at all critici?.:l.ne the $250 million, I am not at all criticizing the fact that the rovernwent is lay:!ng out a <Juarter of its total budget on e>c1ncat:l.on - I aw saying that it is too bad :It cannot be more. I recop.n:l?.e the restraints. Only when I talk money do I get any interest from the r1i.nlster of Finance. Hell, something touches h1 s heart. 6184

April 29, 1976 Tape 2282 IJI-2 MR. ll000Y: I am giv:!ng np any hope for e<'lucation now . "r. rhaii"T".an, the Yinister of Finance of course does not really say Hhat i.s on his mind when he makes a statement like th;tt. lle is one of the fellows in cabinet we can really Cl.epenc on to go to hat for e~ucat:lon. I am sure of that. I'T'. nonDY: !<'hat 11bout l'1Y olc1 'qurr.eo host? '<J' • S I!-<''ONS : ''r. rhairl'lan, I Clo not know about that. 'l'he minister has given up hope for h:IT". 1~e have not given up hope for him, Kr. rhairman.

He recognize that where he sits this days there :Is a reason for hope hut he is a ST!11'1rt man and aR the song goes, "Hhile the light holc1s out to burn, the vilest sinner may return." He is far frol'1 the vjlest, l'r. r:ha:!rman. !":!nister of Tl'inance. But we are looking for a good Mr. r"hairman, I think it is important that someboc1y begin speaking for education in the total context.

If 1 could have before me today the various d:iscipl:l_nes vithin education that I have mentioned, tf I could bave before me the DEC and the School J\o;"trd "Peclerat:lon and the l1TA and the PTAs around this Province and the l'1epartment of F:c1ucatjon and the tm:l.versity, H somehow I could speak to all these at once, T think the essentiaJ message that I would want to get through to them for the sake of education , for the sake of the future of elementary and secondary educa .t:l.on in thi.s Province, the eseential message would be that if you are really concerned - ann that is not meant to imply that they are not concerned.

I !mow the>y are.I have ~rorked close}y with those groups - hnt T. 'Jould say to thel'1 as a

preaMble 1 if you are really concerned the best way to Mani~est your concern in this matter is to start speaking out on the larger issues, start doinr, the education job th<'lt has to be clone on. the parent when he is wearing his other hat, his taxpayer hat, start doing the education job on that taxpayer, th<'l.t as popular as jt may seem to he on the surface to dm·mgrade e>rlucatjon expenc'titures, in the name of the future of education let us, 6185

April 29, 1976 Tnpe 2282 t'R- 3 I'll . Sl~'l·.'f'NS: all of us, Scho0l 00ard fed eration, NT/I, un1verl'; i t"y, let us all :in addition ro mouth;lnr, our irmr.ecliate and leghilllilte concerns - more funds for ore r at in~ schools, more funils for bnil.c'ing sc!loo]!';, more funds for teacher welfare tn ac'C.ition to mouthing those very legitimate concerns, J.et us also ac'.<"re ss ourselves to the lil rge r efluc,ation issues, to the P~ s itle c:>f ecucation, to nettinp: a cross to the puhJ:Ic, t o ~·r .

Taxpayer t 'hat what we are on here is na.t a spending bin-ge in eclucation but the t:tost worth;.•hile :i.nvest:ment cue can posl"ih1e 1'\"ll<e if ~·e are concel'ned about the dir ect ion ;in Nhi ch v•e are goi ng !'ocially as a sodety , and economically as a people . There is noboc'y, 6186 ,.. ,.. .>- ,.. .•.

April 29, 1976 HR. SHII'IONS: Tape 2283 RH- ·1 Hr. Chairman -I do not know if I make myself clear - at the moment there is nobody who really speaks in the latter context for education.

Without being critical to the Minister of Education, let us reflect, let him reflect, we will not discuss the instances though I have taken note of the press releases - let him reflect on the last two, three, five, I have no number in mind, let him reflect on tl1e last ten pronouncements he has made, the last ten pronouncements he has made at school openings or before the television cameras, I ask him, and it is not of soul bearing session here, but I ask him to ask himself was he really speaking for education as a whole or was he really trying to mount today's crisis?

That is too often the temptationin education,to get so immediately concerned with your own immediate crisis - get some more money to build a school, get some more· money to run a school, get some more money to run some buses, get some more money to pay some teachers some more- so immediately concerned with these. If you have heen in education, Mr. Chairman, you can understand how they can be pretty occupying.

But the danger is that we get so- and not only the danger,but the reality is that we all get so preoccupied with the immediate problem 1 as big as it is 1 that we are allowing the larger issue to go unresolved, we are allmving the larger concern to almost as it were go down the drain. I am disturbed as I read the weekly magazines, the Ti.mes and the Newsweeks and the MacLeans and the other magazines and the articles in them, I am concerned about this mounting concensus as it were for bad-mout~ing education. It seems the thing to do these days. 'ffi . SPEAKE!.: Order, please!

I have to remind the hon. member that in somewhat less than a minute, forty five minutes will have elapsed. HR. SH1HONS: Yes. Well, Hr. Chairman, I had not intended to go that long. If I could be permitted just a sentence? I believe I have made the point I want to make. I believe we all, taxpayer, legislator, teacher, parent, all of us, in 1.rhatever hats we wear should be particularly concerned about the last issue I raised,about educating the taxpayer.

If we do not takes some initiatives to see education in a more positive light we are going to forfeit what is a very real opportunity to affect the socially, educationally, economic future of all of us as a society. If we forfeit it once it is going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to retreive it. 6187

April 29, 1976 HR. SPEAKER: 1!R. S. NEARY: Tape 2283 RH - 2 The hon. member for LaPoile. Hr. Chairman, as a non-academic, as a non-teacher in this House, Sir, but as the father of four young children who are attending school, I believe that I have a few views and a few observations to make with regard to the education estimates th~t may be of some help and some benefit to the Committee. I am delighted, Sir, that the students from Arnolds Cove are seated in the gallery at a time that I have chosen to make my few re~rks because I might, Nr.

Chairman, just taking a look at these students, I would say probably they are about grade ten or eleven,who are probably just getting about ready to go out into the world to figure out what their future is going to be, '1-7hether they are going to attend the College of Trades and Technology, whether they are going to go to the vocational schools and get a trade, whether they are going to attend the university or whether they are going to go to the College of Fisheries and Technology or maybe go straight from high school and try to look for a job with just merely grade eleven. So, Hr.

Chairman, that brings me to my first point, first point in my remarks and it is this, Sir: Sitting back as a non-academic and non-teacher and just looking at the whole education system in total, I cannot help but wonder, Mr.

Chairman, with all due respect to the advances that we have made in education in this Province with a quarter of the budget now devoted to education, with the wonderful university that we have built in this Province, the wonderful College of Trades and Technology that we have, the high schools we have, the DREE schools, the great advances that we have made in training teachers and so forth, but tal·.ing a look now, Sir, I am beginning to wonder, Mr. Chairman, if we are getting the best value for our educational dollar and if ~~e are headed in the right direction.

The hon. gentleman who just took his seat asked the question- tried to answer it himself - asked the question 1 who speaks for education in this Province? lie implied that 6188

April 29, 1976 Tape 2284 PK - 1 t!r. Ne<1ry: the DEC and the Boards of Education, the Universitypresident, and so forth,speak for education. He kind of left the question up in the air, who speaks for education? Well I do not know who speaks for education in this Province, Mr. Chairman, but I know who should be speaking for education, and that is the parents. Under the United Nations Constitution Bill of Human Rights and under the Canadian Bill of Human Rights it is the parents who decide the kind of education that their children will receive.

Now gentlemen who are involved, and who have been so close to the educational system may say that the parents are apathetic, complacent, not interested, are prepared to sit back and leave the decisions up to the bureaucrats,and leave the decisions up to the boards, and when they have elections to elect boards you can hardly ~et enough people to come out to elect the people who are elected to the boards, because not all members of boards are elected, some are appointed by the various denominations, some are elected.

But I think if you just look hack over the history of the number of people who are interested enough to come out and vote for those who are elected 1 that you Hill find that it must be very, very discouraging indeed, \vhich ~10uld lead one to believe that the parents are very, very disinterested, lackadaisical, complacent, apathetic about the kind of education that their children should receive. It is the parents who should be speaking for - ~.: __ Sl·lALUIOOD : Mr. Chairman, to a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. member for Twillingate. MR.

SHALL\\1000: Can we not have the right to listen to one person and not a half a dozen outside, only one person at a time? MR . CllAIRNAN: I ask the constable to ensure that silence is kept in the public ways. The hon. member for LaPoile. !IR. NEARY: It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that looking back over the ------ history of this whole procedure of electing boards and so forth that it has not worked out too well. Maybe because the various school boards 6189

April 29, 1971' Tape 2284 PK - 2 '1r. Neary : ond the denomill<ltions have not done the PR work, they have not motivated the parents to the extent that they should have . Haybe i t is the fault of the parents,they are too apa t hetic and too disi nterested and could not care less about the kind of education that their childr en are getting . Rut I am a parent myself, Sir, who has four children in school who is very , very concerned about the kind of education that his children is receiving . And I am very concerned about the future of my four children who are in school .

And therefore sometimes I sit hac!; and ask myself a number of what I consider to be a number of imoortant questions. l•lhat do these children have ahead? \,'hat plans arc being made to ensure these graduates , these students , these ~ ro d uates of our ht gh school and of our post-secondary education institut i ons, what guarantee do they have that we are ~iving them the ri ght counselling and the right advice so that they wtll be able to no out i nto this •~orld and earn a living for themselves? 6190

April 29, 1976 Tape no. 2285 Page 1 - mw ~ 1r. Neary. J!r.

Chairman, I would submit that although we have made rapid strides in the field of education in this Province, that we have nice, big, huge, great,modern buildings, and we have buses taking children back and forth to school, and we have teachers who are highly trained, and highly educated, I would submit to Your Honour that we are at the crossroads, that we have reached the stage, reachEd the tir..e when we now have to sit back and examine our whole education system, and ask ourselves if we are doing justice to the system, if we can ensure the graduates of our high schools and of our post-secondary educational system that we are giving them the best training and the best advice and the best counselling that we can giv e them, that we are headed in the right direction so that that will be able to go out in this world and earn themselves a living.

My hon. friend from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) scoffed the other day at a point that I made in this han. House on a number of occasions whereby I implied that <~e have a large number of graduates of our university who have B.A.'s, B.Sc.'s, who have various other degrees, Bachelor of Science degrees and so forth, who cannot find jobs.

They have spent four and five years at Memorial University, and have graduated with a piece of paper, with a certificate, as I heard some educator say on television one night about the Regional College in Corner Brook, "You will get another certificate." Well, that certificate and fifty cents will get you across on the ferry to Bell Island. It will not get you a job. In the 1960's the trend was the whole population of Norther America was brainwashed into thinking that if you got a university education you were guaranteed to get a job. And so everybody wanted to get into the university.

Everybody wanted to get a university degree, and in this Province we made sure,the former Premier and the former administration made sure that even the son and the daughter of a lowly fisherman or a truck driver or an office worker or a labourer ~ould get a university education through bursaries, free tuition, and even get paid while you were attending the university. And so the 6191

April 29, 1976 Tape no. 2285 Page 2 - mw Mr. Neary. enrollment at the univesity started to skyrocket, and today it is on the decline. lias anybody ever stopped to ask themselves why? T heRr~ the reason given a year or so ago when the government cut back on student aid. I heard the argument from the old-line Liberal spokesman on education that this was the reason for the decrease in the enrollment- and I cannot swallow that, Sir.

I cannot fathom that at all- thereason for the decrease in the enrollment was the fact that the students themselves began to realize that there was no future in the training, no future in the courses, that there was no future in the certificates that they were getting from ~1emorial University, the bit of paper that they could hang on their l.Jall. It could not ensure these students that they were going to get a job. They had gone over and spent four or five years,brainwashed into thinking you had to get a university education.

And unless you were taking medicine or engineering,or unless you were doing social welfare at the time, something where there was a demand for that kind of trained person, you were doomed. And my han. friend from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) said that we had not reached the stage in Newfoundland where this has happened. Well, Sir, I know myself of graduates of Memorial University who have their B.A., and their B.Sc. who are taxi driving today. I know a couple who are working as bartenders. MR. HOUSE: Does it hurt them to have a degree? MR. DOODY: It does not help them when they apply for welfare. MR. ~•EARY: Mr.

Chairman, my hon. friend asked me if it would hurt them? No, it does not hurt them,except that they have wasted four or five years of their lives. Ifaybe it helped them to broaden their education, possibly 6192

~prj) 2q, 1976 Tape 2286 IB-1 . m:A~'Y: - ---- - that rn<1y he ~ RC'Irt of .~n ac'!r'e.-1 ilttrnct:Jon. MR. R. MOORES: It makes him a dignified taxi driver. l'ell maybe it does. It !l'akes them ecJucatecl tax5 rlrivers. /1 l'lan is not f:Jnisher' because he is a taxi c1r:Jver. lle could still hecome Premier. ''1'. NEAPY: FeJl,rnayhe he coulc1 hecome Premier. Ilut, ~:ir, the point is this, that that is all :irrelevant. They got their degree.

They spent f0ur or five :•ears working 'Jarcl at :1 t, hoping thAt when they came out they couJc'! get ? j0b in the profession for which they were tra:lnen 1 .~nn th~>y ,.rerP r':lsillusionec'!.

ThAt is the point that I run mak:lnp;. ~ ·v hnn. friend here can verify tl,js. ~'Y hnn. friend :1 s a graduate of ''emnr:I:~J l'n:lversitv,nnd T m11 sure that he has a lot of colleague!' .1nrl fr:l enr'.s -'!nd JT'Prnhers ~·hn were :In h~ s Studen!: Union over there ~1ho ~nt their clerrees, Porker' h11rfl at it, hopei! to ret a gooc1 job, posh nff:i ce, ;.nd are nm-· out Horlrin<> at so!"ething completely rel1'ote frol'l 1 lmrM nne of mv hon. rentlel'lan 's budclies who just got a job tre ntl1er rl2y <!S <1 sta.tisti.c::i?.n,I think it ,.r;;os,and that is not wrat he l·•:"ts tr0'1inec1 for. nut the trA:Ining does not do him any ha:tm,I agree.

But T ;~m snre thnt if thev hacl the1.r til'!e back th11.t they t-.roul<" not hmre ,;pent f0nr or f1ve or sjx years over at Pernorial University gettin? fl r1epre.<;s unless they Pere sure thev >?Ould have rotten a joh. And in "l0t of' c:>.ses, •·r. rha1Tl1',n, they have come out of the un:J.vers:Jty and then h<1ve had to go to vocational school or the Colleee of MR. DOODY: They are jn debt Fhen they come nnt. ''"". ~mllrY: 1'hey are right up to their ears in c1ebt t-rhen they come out. ~·y r10n. fr:ienrl i.s so right.

I know one gentleman ,,rho is in c'eht for ~20, nnl) •··ho has to now po to the College of Trac1es to try to get 11 trade to r.o out and earn a living ancl heJp him pay off his 6193

.~pri] 29, 1076 Tape 22P,f'i Tll-2 ''T' NEAPY: T 0111 not coJTiinr: c1ov.'Tl U 1·e a ton of l1ricks on tl1e system, Sir, hut I thin!· it is about Ume that ~ve sat back and took a r.;oocl hard look at 011r enucntionaJ system. The other provinces are th:fnkinr, About elainE' it. Some have alre:'lc'ly clone it. nown in the Tln:ltec States - I believe I quotec1 from this

article in Time ~'agazine 1in the Parch E"r1ition of Time ~ 1 1<p;azine where it says, "Jobs, slfm picktngs for the class of '76 " . '~'h:ls is in the l'nitecl State!' so rich and so TJeaJthy. Just listen to this, "llnemployment among new humanities, P..A's.is runnin!) at about fifteen per cent rate, hi?;her than the fourteen point four per cent registerec'l hy lahourers". Just imagine ~ir! Those Hho hAve li.A's, there are more, the percentage r•te of tbose •··ith !LA's ts hipher for he:!ng unemployec1 than those of lahonrers.

"~'est, probably unrelater1 to their majors, v.rill earn average startinr. salaries of $A25 a month. That is less than anv other gracluates AccountantR,for exatrple,can expect about $1,000 a month:' and so forth. "!~any enncat ion grl'lrlttRtes are no better off:· "Theresa Borel en, t\venty-three, who despite her accredi tat:! on to te;~ch hi1<h school is cl:i strihuting lunch trco.ys in a Seattle hosp:l.tal.

"It is verv c1enressinr", says she~· And the han. former Premier just rernindrr1 tr\e that it is not tjl'le wasted. llell,here is a ymmg lacy jn tl'e !'niter' States by the name of Theresa llorc1en, twenty-three who r1espHe her accre<Htation to teach in h:lgh school is now c:l:lstdbuting 1 unch travs. 1\ut she savs it ts very c1iscour;o.r,ing and verv depressing. HI'. S"ALLTmnn: Rut her Jife js not over yet. Ml'.

HE/ITIY: TTer l:lfe :is not over yet, Sir, no,hut she has spent four or five or six years of rer ] :lfe p,etting: th:ls nef.ree. '"Tt :Is very ilepressinr", says she, "to finc1 out that you are not qu11J ifierl after f:lve years of training."' She is qualif:l.ecl but she cannot f:l.nd a job. MR. MURPHY: She would get more an hour if she were teaching. Yaybe, ~~r, rha:l rman. I •1ill come to why I am bring:l.np, these things up in a minute. "Only spec:l.alists in such fields as bilingual 6194

1\prH 29, 1976 Tape 2286 IB-3 l1L NFAPY: Spanish, English teachinr, or musjcal tnstrument instruction in elementary ~chools have much hope for employment, with the somet~s exception of hioJogists and economists~' "l'h.n's -just ltsten to thi.s, -doctors -Ph.D's are in djre str<~its. Acaclemic hiring is nearly clormant. One Californfa psycho] ogist c] a:!!'ls to have m;liled off BOO resumes 6195

April 29, l'J7Fi Tape 2287 }'l' • Nl' i\T'Y : over five ye~rs and the tmcertain ? and n climate discourages e~ployrnent of science roctors! 1 Yl'. SJ'ALL'mon: \foul<'! the hon. gentleman yiel cl a moment? T\oes he not real:!ze that this economic depression to ,.,hich he is referring, to Y-'l1ich the cl ippinp: refers i.n the Unite.c1 ~tates and which can be IB-1 <'lap] i eaten in so many other countries in the '·-'orld now and for the past year or t,_o,ancl perhaps for the next year or two, this very th:f.ng has happened a number of times before!

People were out selling apples on the streets of New Yorl' in the great (!epression, and there are c1epressions. That is no arp.nment af.ainst people <]ualifyinp themselves for •·'hen the npportnniti<'s C!o cc>me, surely. ''r. C'hRirml'ln, the hc>n. the fanner Premier seems to be very, very sensitive arout the point that I al'l tryinr, to make.and I }·not-• that the university Has the hon. the member's baby and he built it up and he hates to hear anybody criticize it. I am not trying to tE'ar it flown, Sir.

I al'1 merely tryinp: to impress upon the r:mrmdttee the neecl for us now at this point in time to get our priorities straight. Pe are spen<'!ing SS m:ilU c>n over here at the College of Trades and "'ec-hnol ogy ¥-•here they are turninp: av_•ay four out of five applicants. Four out of five Rre l1einp: turner a•-•ay, the doors are cJosec1 to these stu<'!ents. Fe nre spenr1 inr. ~5 U':IJ J ion,and we are spendinp.: $40 million on R university 1,rhere the enrollll'ent j s clecreasing. Foul<'! the hon. l'1emher be patient once ar,;,~in !' I <:1ske<'! the university ani!

I asked theFisheries College and I asked the ro] lege of 'T'rades and Technolo~y, all three of them, and I asked the tr11de scbool s to p:ive me the figures of the nnnbers of students t-Tho had p:one throur:l' them Rnd where ~•ere they now. I was absolutely al'lazed and of course cel:ighte<" to discover that overwhelmingly they arf' al 1 in pooc" jobs, overwhell'lingly - Tn the universjty? - in Ne~-rfoundJ and toc1ay. ''1'. NE;WY: \:here is this? 6196

ApriJ 29, 1976 T:l.pe 2287 IB-2 ~ ' ost1 v in Nel·rfouncl] and but some have gone out of the Province, but mainly they an• sti] J here ~-rorking in f'OOd jobs now in spite of the clepre~sion. }'!' . EAl'Y : l'r. C:hainnan, I cannot accept the fact that the. high rate of unemployment amongst universi.ty graduates in the TTn:!ted States is clue to the depressi.on. It is due to the changing times, Sir, and 1~e h;we rP.fusP.d to chanpe with these times.

That :is the reason, Sir. \•Je are living in an electronic :J.f.e. l "ll • SHALLHOOn: There is a lot of truth in that. 'fl' N'F;Al!Y: He are Jiving in an age of "here they are sending people to the moon. He are living in a computer age. If you want to go over at !'eworiaJ l'niversity 1 a.nd you have the time,or any other university,8.nd you have the tj me to punch i n three or four or five years to get a piece of p«per that is useless to you, Fell 1 more pm.•er to you. It broadens your outlool< :In J ife.

But I submit to th:ls rommittee that that is not •'hat the ave rape Ne~o.•foundland student or Canadian student mmtR. They ,.rant - MR. DOODY: '~!'. Nl\APY: You are talking about a hobby. That is « hohhv. If you can afforn that, if you are the son or clauphter r.of a '-'et•lth)' J;e\o.•foundJander .:md you can go do~orn there l'l.nd hP.come R professional student and get two or three pieces of paper to put on the wan of your bec'froom, the more power to you. It will bro;~clen your outlool< on ljfe but it will not earn you a l:lvinp;.

That is why, S:l r, I say to this Cornmi ttee that these students who ar.e sitting in the galleries tocl«y should he very, very, verv, very careful i ndeed ;~ho\tt their futures and ahout the decision that they are going to tal<e prohahly in the next fe•r I"Onths or in the next ye;~r or so 0f 1,•hat they are r:o:i.ng to do with their l:!ves in the future. 1-'i.nd you, "r. Chairll'an, I am not condemo.inp. outright the courses, all the cour,es,that ;~r.e heing given at l"emorial l'nivers:lty. There «re some rnoc:l courses being given there.

There are some good courses heing p:iven ,.,herehy 1 tl1:i.nk you could ,probably, when you pradu;~te finn " joh. But you can count them on one hand. Has anybody ever taken the trouhJe to f'.O over the ] 1st of courses that are p,iven at that un iversitv? The hon. minister probably has. 6197

AprH 29, 1976 Tape 22RR Jil-l •m. NF.A'PY: ------ The han. !'lin:! ster and I r.Rve had " few minor c1iscuss:ions over a cup of coffee about this very same matter and I have to give the minister clue credit that he is concerned about it.

I told the minister on more than one occasion since the hon. gentleman became Vinister of .l'nucation tlwt if he '~ants to make his mark in this Province that the ll'linister woulcl do ,,•ell now at this particular point in time - thjs is not " conde!"naticm of the pe.ople '"ho :3re :!nvolvecl :in education, :f.t is a reco~enclation - tPat the minister would to Hell to set up an 1mpartiCl1, indepem1ent co1J1J11i ssi.on to tal·e a look Rt our whole education/!] system, to see if t.re arp heacer' in the r:ir:ht direction and if we are getting the best v;>]ue For our eclucational doJ1ar.

There 1.1ould he noth:lnf wrong with that, Sir. I do not think it should be clone by smre~orly ,.,fthin the system. I think it should be somebody ~1ho :1 s co!"pJ efOely independent and di!':.'lssod a ted with the system. 1 say that as a parent,because Tam very concerned about the direction that our educational system is headed in. The minister vmu] r.1 r'o '"ell even jf he only d:ic1 it in the post-secondary ')lart of our educ~tional syste!". I think it should go r~ght em dov"ll to Kinr'err:arten rj pht all the ""Y 11p through to university. He do not have one thinr. to lose. And ,,,e have h.~cl a commission.

I know the arr:ument. 1 have heard the arp;nment before. 0h, we have han a commission. Hell ol<:-ty. '·Tell and rood,I 1wuJd say. lle hac' the Harren T>oyal rollli"isFdon. Bravo! Good for thew! ''"'•' J.onr. <Jt,o uas it? Was :It t,,,e)ve or fourteen years Eight. ~~ .. NEARY: Y.:ight years np,o? Ten years ago? Eight years ago. AN nmT. l>'E~<TlET': Ten. ~'1'. NEAT'Y: Ten yearl'l ago. The ~!arren Royal r.ommiss:ion may have been r,ood at that time. If we had followed all the recommendations of the 1\'arren "oyal Co1111l1:l.ss:lon H would break the publ1 c treasury C\f thjs Province.

Rut it did create a level of bureaucracy, several levels 6198

.~prH 29, 197n Tape 228fl IB- 2 ~'T' Nl'I\.~'Y: of bureaucracy, that T. think ,,re unnecessary. 1 ~o not recommend that ' ·"~ flo a'·'ay ,.;t~ the!T' at th:tf' T"Oment, but I certainly think, Sir, th1lt it is ahnut tire. Pe have had 1". royal commission on everythinr; else f.n this Province. You na!l'e jt and ,,,e have hacl a royal commissf.on on H.

Is it not il!'portant enough nov that we are speni!inr, one auarter of the pubJic treRsury on educRtion that ~~e should just pause for a moment anc' have an independent enCiuiry, an independent commission to take a look at the system to see if 1ve are headed in the right direction and we are gettinr the heRt value for our money? ~~r. rhairman, the teachers, the academics who have spoken so far in this (lehf!te,hav~ talker mainly about our elementary school systel'l and ahout our l'tp.:h school systel'l.

But, Sir, I ilo not kno..r if tl1e Cc>I"'T1ittee re'll izes it or not,but the r.oll.ege of Tracles and ~echnology, the university, the College of Fisheries, and J believe the School for the Deaf and several other institutions all come under the minister's r!epartment. They made no reference ~rhatfloever to the pc>><t-seconifary erncat:lop p<'rt of the TlliniRter's estjmates.

They just hntshP.d over tr•e elementary and high school part of the minister's £'fltimf!tes and tried to leave the impression, well, the eclucat:lon people 11re not rettinp.: enough money to run the system, not enough money. '!elJ,rnayhc they r1re not. T realize they have their proh]ems the same llut the general public, Sir, arP. getting kind of fe<" np ••ith ptt"1pinr more Rnd more money into our eclncational system \·•hP.n they are not seeinp: tl1e results that they Poulr:l lil<e to see. T.et us ta.l,e 1 for example~ the College of Fisheries, Navigation and Fh<ttever eJse jt is c:>Jled. "P .

SI'JITJ,J'TI)On' Vf!rine Fnfineerjnp.. vr. NEAPY: 1-<a.dne Engineering and so forth,•rh:lch ~Vas a concept c'E'.velope~ hy l"Y coJle'lp.:ue, the meJ11ber for Twillinp;ate 0fr. SMillJwood), the former Pre,., !e r of this Provjnce,which was 6199

April 79, 197fi. _HR. NFARY: RP - 1 supposed to he,when it was properly developed, one of the finest institutions in the world, not in North America, but in the world. HR. SMALLWOOD: 'lR • NJ<:ARY : not right now. 'm . SMAJ.umnn : J!R. NEARY: And it is right now. And the han. memher says it is right now. Well,T say it is I tell the hon. - Yes it is. I a~ not talking about the staff. I am not talking about the kind of training you can get there. 'lR. SHALL HOOD: All rip,ht. HR.

NEARY: But, Sir, I Hill say this - and the hon. member made a statement there a fe" moments ago that he was amazed that all the graduates of all our post secondary education system had such 'mnderful johs. HP. SMAJ"LIIlOOD: Not all, no. HR. ~lEARY: Not all, but a p,ood many,the hon. member said. NR. SHALLHOOD: Overwhelming majority. .JIR. NEARY: Hell,I would like to lr.now, "'r.

Chairman, and I may take this on during the Summer as a project to try to justify my $11)00 office grant that I r,ot, I may take this on as a pro.1ect because it might help the fisheries in this Province - I ,.muln like to research the students who have pone throup,h the College of fisheries - I!R. SYu\LLHOOD: Yes. 'ln.. tiEARY: - and who have p,raduated - 11R. S~li\LLHOOD: Right. - and who have gone out into the world - Hr!. SHALL1-TOOD: Right. ~m. NEARY: - 1Jho have heen upgraded and trainee\ to see if they are ••orlrinP. at the trade for ,.,hich they were trained at t'<at College of Fisheries . 'IT!.

S~!ALLWOOD: l!ight, right, right. 'IT!. l-'fi\PY: I ,.,ould suhmit, Hr. Chairman, that the vast maioritv, the vnst maiority 11re '<mrking at things that are completely unrelated. ~-:R. S'~i\LUJOO!l: llo. 6200

AprH 29, 197/i . Tape 2289 RH - 2 !'111.. Nf:I\RY: Yes, }lr. Chairman. }fr. Chairman, I would like to know right no\v hmv m<1ny students who have been trained in boat huildinp.: at that College arc nmv out engaged in the profession of boat building. I would ],ike to knmr, Sir, how many students who have been trained in mending nets that are now out mending nets and so on and so on and so on. I could go all the tvay down the line.

I would submit to Your Honour that the College of Fisheries "as probably a l'!ood place to go to punch in the Winter, to punch in a few "eeks, to punch in a felv months because you ~,rere getting naid hy Canada 11anpmver. It is a lot better than welfare, I would submit, Sir, that that inBtitution, that should be and could be one of the finest institutions of its kind in the world,is on the downgrade,if anything. It should be on the upr,rade. It is not doing the ;ob that it should be doing for the fishery in this Province. Could be right. l!R. ~1.

CARTFP.: Hill the hon. member explain what the institution should be doing? NR. HICKlWl: llill he t.rait to see what it is doing? NR. ~l EARY: Yes, Sir, I 1-1ill explain to the minister 1-1hat it should be doing. It should be teachinp; Netvfoundlanders how to diversify the produce of the sea through smokers, through canneries. It should be doing research of a.J l- kinds. It should be out in the field establishing and helping the fishermen and the fishery to get established in these kinds of industry. That is the only salvation for the fishing industry. He cannot stick to the traditional con block.

The minister may stand up in a few minutes II and say, ~h, well, we are teaching all these kind of things and knqw exactly what the answer is p;oing to he~· Rut, Sir, what I want to know is this: how manv smokers and how many canneries and how many this and ho!V many that do we have in Newfoundland today as a result of the several mi lJ ions of dollars that ~re put into the Fishery eollege every year? How many do we have? There is where you can judge your success. Iff. . StiALJ,lmO : Is that the fault of the College? 6201

Rll - 1 lt 1c;, C:i.r, - •mll, T rlo not l·norv. ~•av'>e it is the fault or t'lc fo]Jn "•-uo of the C:nlle~c . •"' ~"!1.1.1.P00') : All rt~.,t, All rt~ht. 'rrl. 'li'Al1.Y : r-ut tl,l'rc is certainlv a weakness . l'r . (:!,airman, I hope the ~n~nittl'e no not think- 1 am trvinP. to offer some positive constructive rrit lcisn of t h<' •;hole syc;tcn. 1 .,m not condemn in~ the ~·hoJ e thin!' r o rth rtr,ht .

T sup'lose T 1,:-.ve to repellt it over and over a$(aio for the r.:~h~ of thORP .,ho mav think t11at I 11m hei np. ner,ative, that our educntional sv!'item in thts rrovinc<' h.avP- man~> rapid stricles since Confederation , rl'(lin strides . 1<1' have don~> tlxccllent . '~e have rlone wonderful in trni ni n~ nur tt'nC"hl'r!'. I'(' !1nvt' nut up beautiful lmi ldinp.s. Rc h;we nice n,·mn:~s;ums . l~c:> hnvc :~l.l l·incl!': of electronic equipment .

Ponde r ful, ~ood, S''I:P.at! 1'lut T hnpe the CommitteP. il'l c:wat"e that '~e also have !'Tiff schools "'''H•rc vou 1-t:~ve mu!'lf cstl ioRtrnl'lents tllat were oaid fnr hv the tax;>avers of 'lPt-~foun<!l;md Anc' of Canada that nre not u!;ed becau.o;e they cannot !let nusi c teach Pro; . vou '•.<~ve nther schnols that have music taachers ant! do not havP anv in!;truments . T wouln assume tha t the M1nister is aware of •hstt !·in<! nf n Rituntion . Ynu cannot horrow the inst r umerts f r om thP. PRrr !'chool herauo;c rhev sav uncler 6202 ,..

April 29, 1976 Tape no. 2290 Page 1 - mw Mr. Neary. the contract, under the agreement, we are not allowed to give them to you. I remember one night, Hr. Chairman, I attended a: PTA meeting. We were trying to raise funds to buy the instruments for the band in the school. And I nearly fell off my chair when I was told by people in the know at that meeting that in at least two schools in Newfoundland, two DREE schools, where apparently they grabbed everything they could when they had the chance.

They took the Cadillac type of school even through they knew at the tim~ they could not use the facilities, but probably I will give them the benefit of the doubt and say, they were looking ahead to the future. We were trying to raise a few dollars to buy instruments for the band. And there were two schools in Newfoundland that had the finest equipment, and the finest set of instruments,! suppose, in Canada that were not used because they could not get a ~usic teacher.

But the school I attended the meeting at, where I attended the PTA meeting, was told that they could not borrow these instruments, because it ·was against the DREE agr.eement. This is the kind of thing! Maybe I am not making myself clear to the Minister of Justice. llR. HICKHAN: You are: MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I will tell you that is a fact. And I sold tickets to try to raise enough money to buy the instruments. NR. SMALLlvOOD: If the hen. member is correct, is that not the fault of DREE for insisting on that clause in the agreement? H..'l.. NI:ARY: I am not convinced, Sir.

I put thequestions, I cross-examined the gentleman who made these statements, and I am not convinced that it is the fault of DREE. I am not convinced at all. MR. SMALV•l'OOD: Well,does not the han. member realize that all he has to' do is ask a question, and have the clause tabled in the House here? The agreement is i~ possession of the government. They signed it with DREE. Ask them if there is such a clause in it. 6203

April 20, 1976 Tape 2290 MW - 2 MR. NEARY: }!r. Chairman, the hon. member says, "Why do I not ask a question?" I have got 137 questions on the Order Paper right now, Sir. MR. SMALLWOOD: I have almost double that . MR. NEARY: I have 137 questions on the Order Paper. I have gotten the answers - this is since last November - and I have gotten the answers so far to twenty-six, which is less than eighteen per cent. MR. MURPHY ~ MR. NEARY: Are you writing a book?

No, I am not writing a book, but I have got some pretty good questions on the Order Paper and so, therefore, I am not going to waste my time any more writing questions and putting them on the Order Paper when the government refuses to supply the answers. But, Mr. Chairman, getting back to our post­ secondary educational system again for a moment. S'ir, I do not know if members have taken a look at the estimates, but here we have a situation where the College of Trades and Technology this year will get $5 million, I believe it is.

The College of Trades and Technology will get $5.5 million, and they are turning away four out of five students. They cannot take them in . It is blocked to the doors. They have no room for them. They are being turned away. And Memorial University's budget this year is $40,267,000, almost $40.5 million. Now, Sir, I ask the Committee to look at this situation objectively and positively. Here you have a situation where the enrollment at Memorial University is dropping. I do not know why it is dropping.

They did a little research over there a few years ago and they kind of half blamed it on the government, and gave the gpvernment a backhanded flick for cutting the student aid. The enrollment is dropping. The demand for vocational training and technical training is increasing, and yet the amount of money spent on technical training and vocational training has stagnated. It is frozen. And the university estimates are going up. Now does that make any sense? Or am I so stupid, 6204

April 29, 1876 Tape no. 2290 Page 3 - mw ~l r. Y.eary. nm I so uneduc ated, just barely scraped through Grade XI that I do not unders tand? Do I not hear right ~o~hen I hear all the students who t al k to me and who come to see me, who recently - I wished I had the paper, t do not have it with me -who recently did an

article in the newspaper-! showed it to the hon. member for Twillingat e (ltr. Smallwood) - did an

article in the ne\o:'spaper over at the College of TTades and Technology pointing out all the weaknesses in the system? 6205

April 2<1, l'l7f- Tape 2291 PK - 1 rtr. 1'1earv: 11o I not hear right when these students tell me thE>se thin1es, when some of my colleague 1 s friends and students presently attending ' femorinl llnivrrsity nre cot"pletely frustrated, and ~rhen I picked up the parc>r this ll'orninr, anc find thnt R,OOO students are g6ing to hi' un!'tTiployecl this yc11.r, I Mean,al'l I dreaming all of this? P.nd yet in certain fit>lds and in certain industries there is a demand. I knovl the minister 1 s department does some research on .ioh op portunities, on the labour market.

But we are churning out, Sir, we are mass producing n.As. and B.Scs.and what have you, who will never fin<1 a job. The job opportunities are not there.

It HouJd be. far better, Sir, if thc> students t~ere told Hhen they get up around Grade VIII, .!2_{, .K or XI,if they were told that,look,here is t·1here the opportunities are; get imto computerization, get into electronics, ~E't into this, get into aeronautics, get into medical science, ~et into nursinp:, get into this,here is where the job opportunities 11re; and not just try to brainwash our students into thinking that if they get any kind of a piece of paper from Memorial University that they are ~oinr to eet a job.

They are beginning to realize that, nnd no,. they knm.• the difference, and that is 1~hy the C'nrollment is starting to drop at l1emorial University, and I think the Hinister of Education '~ill have to agree with that. And that is •,•hy they are clamouring and ber,ginr, 11nd clawing and scraping at the doors of tl!e vocational schools and the Coll!lge of Trades and Technology to try and get in, to p;et a trade where they know they can get a job.

And yet we t~ ent 11heacl ••ith that foolish plan of spending $11 million in building a rer,ional college out in Corner Ilrook just to fulfill a politjcal promise, and all it is is a glorified upgrading school! The minister says, "Oh,you could take a two year course there." He could have accomplished the same thing in this Province, Sir, ~y puttinr Grade l]J into our high schools instead of spending $J2 million building that regional college out in Corner Brook that is nothing more than a glorified upgrading school, where you go in 6206

April 29, 1976 Tape 2291 PK - 2 Mr...:.._ Near_y_:_ if you do not qualHy for nursing, or you cannot qualify to get into "1emorial University,or you cannot qualify for this trade or that trade, you go out there and you do a refresher course in Mathmetics or English or whatever you failed in Grade XI, You could have done the same thing in Grade XII, Why are we not thinking about putting Grade XII into the high schools? I am trying to make an argument, Sir. I am ~<it condemning those rvho run the educational system. God bless them,they have done a good job up to now.

But I am trying to make an argument for pausing for a moment. And. if the han. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood),the former Premier will £emember, and I am not divulging Cabinet secrets,that I on at least three occasi