Volume 3 PROVINCE· OF NEWFOUNDLANJ) THIRTY .SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session REPORT--_--- -. '. . . - - - - TUESDAY, APRIL 9, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL --- ,. Number 44 ,.

Anr:11 9, 1974 The House met nt 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. PR. SPt,i\Kf~: Order, plc;ise! Tape 1137 IB-1 I wo11l~ Jjke to we] corr.£• to the r,aJleri~s today from the c01mnun:! ty cmincil of f-!l!C>s Cove, Mr. Clifford Morry anrl Mr. C::er.ild Fud!!;e and from the council. at South Brook, r-tnyor McKay and Deputy 1-'ayor Lewis Rowsell. I also h,ive in the galleries nineteen Grade V students from Roncalli School here in St. John's,with their teacher, Mr. Larry Martin, and sixty-two Grade IX students from the Glovertown Regional High School, with their teachers, Mr. Hubert Sparkes and Mr. Feltham.

On behalf of all the honourable members I would like to welcome you all to the galleries today. PETITIONS: MR. B. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present a petition on behalf of 207 residents of the community of Lushes Bight, Beaumont anc Beaumont North in the district of Green Bay. The Prayer of the petition is: "i.:e, the undersigned residents of Long Island do hereby give our consent to 'this petition requesting that a road be constructed from Lushes Rip.ht to Long !~land Tickle, the right-of-way for which has already been put under a federal progranune, LIP Programme, a couple of years ago." Now, Mr.

Speaker, just a little background on this petition. p.j_ght now the island of Long Island is connected to the Main Land only by a fc1·ry that runs from Little Bay Islands to Lushes Bight and then into -St. Patricks, all of which are in the district of Green Bay. The whole intent of this petition is to construct a road down on Long Tickle so that they will be closer to the Sunday Cove Island and thereby the intent is to have their own separate ferry run from Long Island to Sunday Cove Island which is to be connected by road at Miles Cove and Jerry Harbour. The w~ole situation here, ~r.

Speaker, is simply that up until now the ferry system for these two islands, Little Bay Islands and Long Island, has been under the jurisdiction of the provincial government. Jn the 3459

April 9, 1974 Ta~e 1137 IB-2 last six months or so moves h~ve been under foot for this whole ferry system to be taken over by the federal government. It ls my understandin~ that this intent will be realized in the next few weeks. So, it will depend then upon the federal government as to whether they are going to continue the present arrangement of having the ferry move between Lushes Bight, Little Bay Island and Springdale or St. Patricks or whether it is to come the other way or whether they are going to have two ferries.

So, while I support the petition, it must be kept' in mind that thia whole question of a road down over Long Tickle is dependent upon the federal government's position regarding the ferry system, on whether they are ~oing to continue to proceed with one ferry going between the two islands and then on into Springdale or St. Patricks or whether on the other hand they are going to institute a programme of a two ferry system, one for Long Island,which would go to Miles Cove and Sunday Cove Island.and the other one which would take care of ' Little Bay Islands,going into Springdale.

So, the decision upon till now had been primarily a provincial one .but the jurisdiction has now changed or is in the process of changing to a federal one. So, it will depend to some extent upon what the federal gov~rnment's intentions are regarding the ferry system. So, I present this petition, ~r. Speaker, and ask that it be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. WOODWARD: ~r.

Speaker~ I would like to speak in support of the petition presented by the member for Green Bay,representinf the comtr.unities of Lushes Bight and Beaumont and Beaumont North,looking for road construction. I did not fully get the gist of the change that is going to be made in the ferry service changing from provincial status to federal status but I suspect that the honourable member knows what he is talking about.

Sir, we would like to see the Finance ~inister tomorrow in his resuml when he gets up to deliver his budget speech, make sure that there ate sufficient funds in that partjcular bud~et to meet the prayer of this petition and see that the residents of Lushes Bight anrl Beaumont 3460

liprll 9, l'J74 Tap1: 1137 Al:-1 and Beaumont North do get their -road this year. MR. SPF.AKER: The honourable ~!ernbe-r for Placentia East: ~1:l{~ J.-!..~"!".LHA_R_T~:. H-r. Speal:er, I beg leave to resent a petition on behalf ' of the residents of the Community of Little Harbour East, in the District of Placentia East. This Sll'.all co=unity has a;:;proxir:ately 300 people, and all of the workers in the area are fi~hcrmen. The prayer of the petition is that the road from the community of Little Harbour East to the Trans Canada Highway be upgraded and paved.

The petition reads as follows: "We the undersigned voters of Pl&centia East hereby request that this petition be presented to the House of Assembly.

Whereas the Community of Little Harbour East has a population of approximately 300 people, and

whereas the pupils of the community have to commute daily to Arnold's Cove to attend school, and

whereas the community has a fish plant from -which is trucked several million pounds of fish annually, and

whereas this is a viable and independent growing community, we hereby petition the government to upgrade and pave three miles of road from the Trans Canada Highway to the Community of Little Harbour East and that ~ork be commenced this summer." I am glad to see, Mr. Speaker, present in the Rouse the honourable Minister of Transportation and Cotr.111unications whose department is responsible for the upgrading and paving of roads in the provtnce.

I think this petition is very, very timely being presented today and I sincerely trust that he has included in his estimates for capital expenditure this year this small portion of highway which is, as stated in the petition itself, just approxit:1.ately three miles. Mr.

Speaker, I have contended throughout, since I have represented this district and the fishermen in these ccmmunities, that the ~overnment of the Province have a special duty to these fishercen because- · these communities ,and Little Harbour East is one of them, served.as a receiving center for 111any of the fishereen who were encouraged and requested and who did in fact 111ove from the islands of l'laccntia Bay into the C01$1unities in Placentia East. As a result cf this 1r.ove, !fr.

Speaker, the schools in the areas havP clcseci, post offices have closed and all public services heretofore provided ~here .,P,,n1 .. 1 :lvPd. 3461

April 9, 1974, Tape no. 1138, Page 1 This means that there has been a considerable saving to both the provincial and federal treasuries by the movement of these individuals. It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that governments have not seen fit to recognize the extreme sacrifice which these people have experienced both in living conditions and also in trying to make their own living from fishing. In this cOl!IIDunity in particular, one hundred per cent of the workers there are fishermen and they struggle under very, very difficult circumstances.

They have a very small wharf in the community and only a few weeks ago I had the Minister of Fisheries accompany me to the community and the fishermen showed him at first-hand the terrible conditions under which they work. They have a small wharf which ce.n accommodate just about three boats,where there are in excess of twelve lougliners not counting the smaller craft that are fishing in that community. Then they h~ve to cope with the perils of the sea and here r~cently, problems presented by the tankers that transport the oil in and out Placentia Bay to that refinery. Mr.

Speaker, while I am on this topi~, I sincerely trust that that Tanker Route Committee will soon find it possible to table their report because it is really ridiculous to think that here these tankers are going in and out that bay and that there is only now a committee studying it and that the committee itself has not yet reported. I am told by some of these fishermen that one of these tankers, and particularly that large tanker that anchored off, I think it was, Fair Haven, occupied one of the best fishing grounds in Placentia Bay.

They have indicated that particularly the fishermen from Southern Harbour have already experienced obstruction in pursuing the fishing. Thia ia very, very important and I sincerely trust that this committee will report and report promptly on this. The petition. The Attorney General just requested; ''What is the petition about?" The petition is about the road, Mr. Speaker, but they also have grave problems with the fishery and I thou:;ht that it is very rarely that one gets 3462

April 9, 1971,, Tape no. 1138, Page 2 an opportunity to bring this to their attention. AN IION ;!'E''RER: - ---- --·- - -·- -- (Inaudible) ' MR. AYLWARD: I beg your pardon! AN HON. l'F.HI'.ER: (Inaudible) MR. AYLWARD: I think as far as the fish are concerned,they both have the same effect. AN HON. ME?'BER: Does he know which one? MR. AYLWARD: I said that as far as the fish are concerned they both have the same effect. I think it was the }-1'el!lber for Labrador North. Mr.

Speaker, I sincerely trust that the Department of Transportation and Communications will give this petition the attention that it merits and deserves and I sincerely trust that they Yill see fit to allocate sufficient expenditures this year to upgrade and pave that very, very small portion of highway. I know that if he could speak, the minister is sitting in the galleries; ·.this comr.iuni ty forms part of his parish and c;me can imagine the difficulties he experiences;in trying to serve a flock over a dirt road during the spring of the year. In addition, Mr.

Speaker, as I said, from an economic view­ point the road must and should be paved and I ask that this petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Hember for Bell Island: }!R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House support the prayer of the petition just presented on behalf of the residents of Little Harbour East, in the great and historic District of Placentia East. Tomorrow, Sir, the Member for Placentia East should get his answer when the }linister of Finance brings down his budget.

There will be no ~ore tinsel nor confetti nor balloons nor Confederation Banquets. The .. government in future will spend its money to celebrate the Silver Anniversary of being a Province of Canada by building roads like the honourable member just requested in behalf of the people in Little Harbour East. I could not think of a better Silver ftnniversary present to give the people of that cornnunity than to give them that road. It is a reasonable re~_•Jest, Sir, and we have no hesitation at all in supporting the petition. -- _3463 2

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear: Hear: REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES:. HON, E. MAYNARD (Minister of Forestry and Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I would like at this time to table a report which has been long awaited and much talked about, especially during the past two or three months,and that is the Report of the Federal/Provincial Task Force on Forestry. The readers who received the report today will note that there are some missing pages.

The miss_ing parts were taken out because it was not considered in the best interests of the foresty industry of this province to make those particular parts of the Task Force public. With that exception, the Task Force Report is as it was presented by the Task Force group to government nearly one year ago. There is one further comment and I do not think it is necessary to make too many since this report has been discussed a great deal. Over the past few days or weeks various people have called for the tabling of nine volumes of the report.

I would like to point out at this time that there are no nine volumes of the Task Force Report. The nine reports referred to at various times were _cODDittee reports, sub-committee reports of the Task Force and out of those nine committee reports, the main Task Force came up with the report that will be presented to the House today. With the exception of the few pages and there is a note inserted showing that, the report being tabled is the actual report submitted by the .Task Force and I am very pleased to have copies to present to all members of the Bouse. I also think there are sufficient copies for the press.

There J will be more copies available at a little later date. ORDERS OF THE DAY: KR. F. B. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Transportation and Communications undertook to find out whether or not there have been tenders called for the reconstruction and paving of the local roads in Flat Bay and Highlands in the electoral District of St. George's. I was wonder if the minister had the answer to that question now, Sir. 3464

April 9. 197lt l'apc no. lJ 38 Page HON. T. V, HICKEY (Minister of Transportation and Communications): Mr. Speaker, I do not have any information on any such tender call. I have checked with my officials and they advised me that there has not been. MR. F. B. ROWE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker: Does the minister intend calling tenders for these two co=unities for the road work in these two communities? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, we have to wait and see I guess,like all the other projects that are necessary in the province. MR. F. B, ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was wondering if the minister has heard the announcement made by the Member for St. George's, I think, over the weekend, saying that $1. l million worth of road work will be carried out in these two co11UDunities this year? 4 - MW MR. HICKEY: No, Mr. Speaker, I was out of the province for part of last week and I did not get back until the weekend. I have not heard any such announcement·neither have I talked to the Hon. Member for St. George's in connection with this particular item. MR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Did the minister autho~ize the Member for St.

George's to make any such announcement on behalf of the minister or the government as a whole? MR. HICKEY: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, Sir, is on the public~record as stating that we are going to have a long, hot summer of strikes in this province. I wonder if the minister could tell us what special measures his department is taking to provide conciliation services to beef up the conciliation branch of the minister's depaTtment?

Is there anything special that the minister intends to do to try to cope with this forecast of his that ~e are going to have a long sU111111er of strikes? MR. SPEAKER: That question could be placed on the Order Paper. 3465

April 9, 1974 Tape no, 1138 Page 5 HON . J. ROUSSEAU (Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations): If I may• Mr. Speaker• I would just lik.e to put that in proper context. I have given the figures for the first quarter thus far this year. I suggested that the .figures for this quarter: eighteen strikes up to the end of March, sixteen of which were illegal strikes. were identical to the same period last year. I said that it looked as if we were going to have the same type of long, hot summei: but I hope not. I vas doing it on the basis of ~e fi.rst three months 1 hoping that it would not be so. Kr. Speaker.

I made a statement,out in Gander over the weekend,at the ~E Convention and I suggested to a 3460

April 9, 1974. Tape 1139 RH - l number of news media that what we are asking is that the DepartMent of Manpower and Industrial Relations and not as it has been referred to in many instances as myself but all the people in there. The Deputy Minister and the assistant Deputy Ministers and Conciliation Officers are pre­ pared to do everything in their power,if people would come to us and let us help them, any way we can do it, If there is goinP, to be a strike there is going to be a strike, It is not a simple problem in many instances.

If there is a wildcat or a legal strike there is always a cause for it and the cause may be long and deep-rooted but all we can do is offer the services of the department any time in the day or night to the maximun number of people we have,and if people feel that there is a need to contact us, then we certainly would be pleased to help out in any way.

As a matter of fact, this morning we had a phone call frOC1 a company,from a union who suggested that there may be a need for a wildcat and we immediately initiated action and hopefully will avert that by the end of the week,by contacting a company or if the com­ pany should contact us, by contacting a union and trying to get the matter settled away before a strike comes whether it be legal or illegal. So all we can do is with the manpower we have, We do not think,at this point in time,we need manpower.

We have the resources down there and we stand ready to assist any party either labour or management in any issue that is befor~ them insofar as a legal or an illegal strike could result from it. MR. NEARY: I wonder if the same minister could bring us up to date on the very serious situation in Labrador West where the strikers down there are defying a court injunction to go back t.o work in the minister's own district. Would the minister care to give the House a progress report on what is happeni~g in that district, what is happening with the strike at Iron Ore Company of Canada? MR. ROUSSEAU: That is right.

The company apparently served an injunction around mi~-evening,last evening. The union had a meeting this morninr, and the union is still not back to work. They had a

April 9, 1974. Tape 1139 RH.,. 2 peaceful demonstration this morning. That is the up-to-date on it. MR. NF.ARV: A supplementary question, Sir: Is the minister's depart- ment involved? Is there any conciliation officer on the spot, any­ body representing the minister's department in Labrador City or are they just standinr, off waitin~ to be invited to come in? MR. ROUSSEAU: I wired the Iron Ore Company of Canada this mornl~g, ~!r. Val Gregoir, General Manager, Iron Ore Company of Canada, Seven Islands, Quebec. I had a wire last night from the union.

"Dear honourable member, Minister of Manpower." This is from the union in Labrador City. "This is to confirm our request that a meeting be set up immediately between the Iron Ore Company of Canada and us, the United Steel Workers of America, Local 5795. Thank you for your se-rvices. We hope this meeting can be arranged as soon as possible. We hope that you could act as chairman for these meetings. The United Steel Workers of America, Local 5795, y,ecording secretary." This morning I wired Mr.

Val Gregoir, the General Ma.na~er of the Iron Ore Company of Canada, in Seven Islands, Quebec, "I have been requested by the executive of Local 5795, United Steel Workers of America, to propose a meetin~ between IOCC and the executive of the local. Local 5795 also requested my presence at this proposed meeting. It is anticipated that causes for the labour unrest in IOCC will be the topic discussed for the proposed meeting. I believe benefits could be derived from such a meeting and I am prepared to confirm my presence at a mutually agreed location and time.

If you deem it adviseable I would be prepared to meet with the company alone prior to any joint meeting. I am pleased to have your cO'llllllents." MR. NEARY: A supplementary question: Has the minister replies to these wi~es? Has the minister received any replies yet. MR. ROUSSEAU: Not up to this moment. MR ".-~Y: Not up to this moment. I think the minister is also responsible for public works, ls that correct? Would the ~inister 3468

April 9, 1974. Tape 1139 RH - 3 inform the House if the difference of opinion between the government and the city council concerning a fisheries departr.ient buildinJ!; here on .Bir.gins Line has been resolved yet? MR. ROUSSF.AU: ------ - I have no knowledge of any fisheries building here on Higgins Line. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon! MR. ROUSSEAU: I have no knowledge of any fisheries building on the Hi~gins Line. MR. NEARY: Well, the building that is going on Riggins Line, I understand is being built for the Department of Fisheries. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: No. Miner.al Resources MR. NEARY: No. Mineral.

Resources, being built for the Minister of Mines and Energy. Would the minister tell us the difference that has arisen between his government and the city council, if it has been resolved yet? I think it is concerning parking in the area. MR. ROUSSEAU: I do not know. We have been in contact with them. We have consulted with Pippy Park and we have permission to build and it is over there at the edge, right behind the area across, I do not know whether it is north, south, east or west but out here.

So ve have written and I think they accept the fact that with the Pippy Park Col!Dllission we are_prepared to go ahead with it and we will do everything we can to make sure thereare adequate parking facilities. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member from St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: The Mineral Resources and Crown Land Surveys Building, I think, the honourable member from Bell Island is referring to, Sir, I was wondering if the minister could indicate whether · there is going to be any further building in that particular area because I think that this is what the St.

John's City Council is concerned about, the traffic .flow and the possibility of additional buildings being built on Higgins Line. It might come under the jurisdiction of the Minister MR. ROUSSEAU: la~ not aware of any that are.proposed at this point in time. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, seeing that the honourable the Premier is not 3469

April 9, 1974. Tape 1139 RH - 4 in his seat, is the Premier going to be in his seat this afternoon? He will be here for the vote, I suppose, to set up the dictorship. Is he going t~ be here for the - Mr. Speaker, all I am asking is if the Premier is r,oin~ to be here for the question and answer period. Well it will soon l•e over. I cannot wait all day. !ffi.. SPEAY-ER: Order, please! HR. NEARY: Well, Mr, Sneaker, in the absense of the Premier, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of ~lanpower and Industrial Relations. Can they not stay in there seat any lon~er than two or three minutes? HR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Here he comes. He is coming. Throw out the right bait and you are bound to hook him. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Hon. the Premier - Ac~ HONOURABLE MEMBF.R: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, I am going to direct my question to the Premier now, .. seeing I got him back in his seat - to ask if he were serious in Corner Brook when he announced an aluminum plant, $480 million,to produce costic soda.and a big new cement industry valued at $70 million? Or did he get carried away with the fifty members of ' the Humber West constituency association that were present7 MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Was he serious or did the Premier get carried away? HON. F.D. MOORES (Premier): ~r. Speaker, I always get carried away with the members of Humber West, the. executive for the P.C, association. They are very effective. At that time what I did say was that, I cer­ tainly did not say that an aluminum plant would be responsible for producing costic soda. That even the member for Bell Island goes too far with.

What I did say at the time was that the potential industries for the Province included,with the energy that is comin~ here from the Lower Churchill Falls, the Lower ·Churchill River, the ener~y that will come here to help alleviate the way of life for all our people, the enerr,y thnt will be coming here to put reliable, stable 3470

April 9, 1974. Tape 1139 RH - 5 heat and electrical power into homes. At the Rame time I was sayinp, \ that these industries were also possible to be attracted for that reason, Mr. Speaker. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Premier would indicate to ----, the House if .this is the p;overnment's new policy now of announcing industries before they actually become reality? MR. MOORES: No, Mr. Speaker, that is the old policy. MR. NEARY: That is the old policy, to be Frank is not Joey. The next thing we will hear about orange juice. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! HR.

NEARY: The Premier is getting around to the orange juice factory. MR. SPEAKER: Order,please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, they will have to do some squeezing. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Right. No trouble to get the juice out of the Premier though if you ~ive him a squeeze. Plenty of juice there. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. ~Y: A little Johnny Walker, maybe, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Hon, the Premier would indicate to the House what special measures his government intend to take to cope with the record unemployment in this Province, especially in view of the fact that the students are just about ready to come out of the university and out of the College of Trades and tke ~ollege of Fisheries and che Vocational Schools and the hi~h schools~ Is his government ~oing to do anything a~ all about this? Are they going to take any special measures to try to offset the high unemployment?

Would the Premier outline as briefly as he can just what it is his government intend to do, if any­ thing? KR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, as this House knows, there were never more people durin~ this time of the year employed in Newfoundland then there are at the present time. Equally the unemployment is high, Being a seasonal way of life in the Province,this has always been the case. It is not ~oing to be easily overcome. 3471

Ap~11 9, 1974. Tape 1139 RH - 6 However, this government and I can assure this House that this government will do everything in its power to create as much employment­ ment as possible, not the seasonal typ ~ of the past but rather the permanent employtT1ent whereby people can look for twelve months and year round employment. That is the sort of objective we have and that is what we are working at, Sir. MR. NE.ARY: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Can we expect then action this year? Is the Premier aware there are 34,000 Newfoundlanders unemployed at the present time, the highest on record? MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: I am asking the Premier if he knows, if he is aware of this. HR. SPEA..'l{ER: Order, please! The honourable member for Bell Island seemed to be ~aking a speech. This is not customary to the question period. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker. Is the Premier aware, Mr. Speaker, that there are 34,000 Newfoundlanders unemployed, the highest in our record? If so, will there be anything, any relief for these unemployed this year? MR. MOORES: possible. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we will be providing jobs as much as Well, Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question: I wonder if the Premier could be a little more specific and tell us in what area these jobs will be supplied? MR. ~RES: During the course of this House, Mr. Speaker, and during the budget debate and during the course of the estimates and during the~ course of the legislation that will go through, we will be proving to the people of this Province that this government is trying in every area to provide opportunities for people with!~ the Province, HR. NF.ARY: Changing the rules of the House will never provide jobs. MR. SPF.AKF:R: Order, please! MR. NF.ARY: Mr.

SpeAker, I have a question, I will get away from the Hon. the Pre1,!,•r for a while, He secm::i to be in such a bad mood today. I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing 3472

April 9, 1974. Tape 1119 RH - ·7 over here, Sir. The minister is quoted as s.aying. "The 1;overnment has its mind made up on regional government." Would the t!linister care to comment on that story in the morning news? Is this tTUe? If so, what are the alternatives? What do they intend 3473

April 9, 1974 Tape No, 1140 NM - i to replace this with regional government, the metro system or what? AN HON. MEXBER: Inaudible. 'MR, NEARY: No, the minister is going to answer the question , Do not be so - AN HON. MEMBER: He just got back from Montreal. ~ . SPEAKE~: Order pl~ase! MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I cannot be responsible for statements made in newspapers, either "The Evening Telegram" or "The Daily News" or any other and I do not recall making that statement because the government has not made up its mind.

If the honourable member used his intelligence I wonder why he considers we have a royal commission at the present time carrying out extensive investigations to get a public opinion on that very subject. The government has not made up its mind, MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador South. MR, MARTIN: A question for the honourable the Minister of Transportation ~nd Communications, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the honourable gentleman could inform the House what the situation is with regard to the air ferry service between southern Labrador and the Island of Newfoundland and whether that subsidy is going to come into effect. MR. HICKEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can inform the House that there has been a subsidy approved on a temporary basis until such time as the overall policy for regional carriers with regards to subsidies is worked out. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minister responsible for working out the details of the agreement between the government and BRINCO would be in a position to infonn the House if construction of the Lower Churchill will actually get underway this year, How many Newfoundlanders will be working on the Lower Churchill this coming summer? How much work will be done? What will be the work force this year down on the Lower Churchill? MR. DOODY: Is he speaking to me? 3474

April 9, 1974 Tape No. 1140 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Yes, I am speaking to the minister responsible for working out the details with BRINCO, the expert, the fellow who dots the "i's" and crosses the "t's". MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. DOODY: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to answer all the questions that the honourable member just asked. MR. NEARY: .. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question - . MR. DOODY: As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, if I may, if he learns to ask questions in a reasonable manner I am sure he will get reasonable answers but there is a limit to the endurance of everybody in this House as far as his insinuations and nastiness. I get the messages tho~gh. MR. NEARY: The minister must be exhausted, Sir, like the Premier is exhausted after his strenuous negotiations. I am going to ask the Premier,for a second day in a row, how many Newfoundlanders will be employed on the Lower Churchill this summer? Do not give me a vague answer.

This summ.er,how many Newfoundlanders will be working on ·the development of the Lower Churchill? MR. MOORES: 1·w111 confer with the Minister of Industrial Development and try·to ascertain the answers. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister would care to bring us up to date then on the negotiations. How are the negotiations going with BRINCO? MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, the gentleman responsible for crossing the "t's" and dotting the "i's" can report that the negotiations are going very satisfactorily. l-1R.. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Twillingate. MR. GILLETTE: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Tourism has the answers to my questions pf yesterday? MR. OOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I do not have them right here. They are being typed and should be up any minute now. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. Barbe North. ~!R. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a question to the honourable the Premier, 3475

April 9, 1974 Tape No. 1140 NM - 3 In view of the fact that there is no work schedule, or no work

schedule has been worked out for the second oil refinery, could the Pr.emier give some indication of the anticipated size of the work force at the second oil refinery site for the summer and for the autumn? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. MR. MOORES: It is virtually impossible, Mr. Speaker, for this reason, _that I understand the engineering plans have to be presented to the company. The government has to have its designate study the whole thing after that. The timing is important, Mr. Speaker, the timing factor is the important thing.

We -ere anxious,as everyone else is, to get it underway as quickly as possible. However, I understand it will be June before the engineering plans are approved and then I understand work will commence shortly after that. Now as to the number of people, it is very difficult to ascertain at this time what will be available this year.

The refinery as I understand has to be b~ilt in thirty months which is a much shorter time than the previous one, so I would _expect that the work load or the number of people employed would be much greater in the second refinery.in total, even though the time is shor _;er, than was the case in the previous one . figures, I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I do not have. The exact MR. F. ROWE: Okay, Mr. Speaker. Could the Premier give some indication of the, not the names of but the n\Dllber of local companies that are likely to be involved in that work? MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, other than the prime contractor . or the general contractor, it is understood that wherever there arelocal contractors or local labour or local materials they will be used on the site. AN HON. MEMBER: Will tenders be called? MR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the Premier indicate to the House the cost of construction of the second refinery at Com~ By Chance? MR. MOORES: As far as the government is concerned, Mr. Speaker, at the present time it is still $308 million. Now that cost may have escalated 3476

April 9, 1974 Tape No. 114D l.'M - 4 since but any additional cost wo_uld have to be raised by the principal, that is as I understand it at the present time. MR. ROBERTS: I am glad the Premier added, "at the present time." We will be back in the House. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Motion number (2). I think . the debate was adjourned by the honourable member for St. John's East last day. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I have not got too much more to add to the debate. We finished the debate really the other day just before we adjourned.

There is one thing though that I would like to draw to the attention of the House - the fact that some concern had been expressed, particularly by t~e honourable the member for Labrador South,with respect to the rules relating to the committees when he expressed th.e concern that a committee may not meet and if it did not meet then there would be no report back to the House of Assembly or back to the Committee of Supply • . Aslyway, Mr.

Speaker, as everybody knows perhaps, the school children in the galleries I know would also know that the reason for the applause is the fact that a couple of our colleagues who ha~e been sick and nave been recuperating of. late have been able to get back to the House for this important matter,to participate in this particular vote. We are all certainly delighted to see that they are recuperating so well and look "forward to a very short time when they will be back . with us more permanently. Now, Mr. Speaker, back to the concern expressed by the honourable the member for Labrador South.

He expressed concern ·that an estimate or group of estimates could be referred to a committee and not somehow,because a committee did not meet, get back to the House oflssembly or back to the Committee of Supply. I have gone · over this with him in the' past couplP. of days and I have given him my assurance from the

interpretation of the rules that this could not happen because at the end of the appointed period of time the Chairman of the Committee of the Whole has to put all of the estimates which are then in the Committ~e 3477

April 9, 1974 Tape No. 1140 NM - 5 of the Whole and those which had been ,referred out would s .till be out and the estimates could not be passed by the House until the deliberations of the committees had been determined. Now I appreciated his concern even though I do not believe that there are any real grounds for the concern. While I appreciated his concern I had hoped to be able to put in words .to add to parc1graph (d), words to the effect that the committee to which such estimates have been referred. if it have not met or should be unable to report,then it would be automatically referred to the Committee of the Whole on Supply, which I belie11e would happen 3478

April 9 1 1974 Tape 1141 ' PK - 1 apvway but l wanted to put it in words. I gave ~his 1 I must indicate. to the Leader of the Opposition,only about a quarter of an hour before the opening of the House. He indicated that he did not have time to study it and could not give the necessary consent to have the motion come in as an amendment without debate,and so be it! But I just want to give the assurance to the honourable the Member for Labrador South that this could not happen,in my

interpretation under the orders, under this new Standing Order. I understand that the honourable member agrees with the motion that is here. He agrees with the curtailment to forty-five minutes and he a~rees with the seventy-five hours. He just has these few reservations. I hope that these words have hopefully allayed these reservations and perhaps, I would hope, he might be able to consider to vote for this resolution which I think is a very beneficial motion and one which is most necessary in order to tidy up the rules of the House. Mr.

Speaker, when we come to the point of voting which we shall come veey sho~tly, the Hon. Leader of the Opposition indicated that he would call for a division. Well 1 of course. there is no need to do that because we require twenty-eight in this House to vote in order to change the Standing Orders under the House of Assembly Act. The ~overnment • itself intends to ask for a vote on division ~o that the members can be counted because I think all members should be counted on this.

As I say 1 it is a beneficial move to tidy up, in a sincere attempt to ·tidy up the rules of this House,to make it forum more effective> by both this and the other motion that will come i111Dediate thereafter. I have much pleasure, Mr. Speaker, in moving the adoption of this resolution. On motion resolution . adopted, on division. DIVISION Those in favour of the resolution please stand: The Hon. Premier, The Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy, The Hon. Minister of Industrial Development, The Hon. Minister of Health, The Hon. Minister of Social Services, The Hon.

Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, The Hon. ~inister of Provincial Affairs and Environment, The Hon. Minister of Public Works 3479

April 9, 1974 Tape 1141 PK - 2 and Services, The Hon. Minister of Tourism, The Hon. Minister of Education, The Hon. Minister of Justice, The Honourable Mr. ¥.arshall, The Hon. Minister of Finance, The Hon. Minister of Fisheries, the Hon. President of the Council, The Hon. ¥inister o~ Municipal Affairs and Housing, The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications, The Hon. Minister of Rural Development, Mr. Stagg, Mr. Aylward, Mr. Wells, Hr. Brett, l!r. Peckford, Hr. Senior, Mr. Car!,er, Mr. Wilson, Mr. Young, Mr. Evans, Mr. Morgan, Mr. Howard. Those against the motion please rise: The Hon.

Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Gillett, Mr. Woodward, Capt. Winsor, Mr. Neary, Mr. Thoms, Mr. F. B. Rowe, Mr. Martin. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the journals of the House should indicate that there were thirty-four votes in favour. MR. SPEAKER: is carried. There are thirty for and eight against,the resolution HON. 0 E. M. ROEERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr. Speaker, my colleague the gentleman for White Bay South is away from Newfoundland and my colleage the gentleman for Hermitage is fulfilling a long standing public engagement in Grand Falls, so neither of them could be present.

Each of them has asked me if I would ask- · MR. BARRY: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: No there are no proxy votes; the schoolboy debater would do well to contain himself. Each of them - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: It is hard to be nasty with the schoolboy debater. MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleas<!! .. MR. ROBERTS: f.ach of them, ~r. Speaker, has asked me if I would 11.Bk if the House would allow it to be recorded, although they were not present, that if t!1ey had been prPsented they would have voted against the motion. It cannot be recorded in the journal.

Sir, the practice at Ottawa is quite clear, time and time again on a division members are allowed to stand and state what they would have voted, if they had voted. So now I make that request,that it merely be noted that these two gentlemen are not here, that they have not taken

part in the vote but they considered it a dark 3480

April 9. 1974 Tape 1141 PK - 3 day for Democracy in this province. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on that point: There is no such rule here. The honourable the Member for Hermitage and the honourable the Member for WhHe Bay South do not chose to be here, their votes are not to be recorded. One cannot vote in this House by proxy. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MARSHALL: Motion . - Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I think this is correct. If honourable members are not present then their votes are not to be counted. MR. MARSHALL: Motion I. MR. SPF.AKER: Motion I, I think.was moved by the honourable Member for St.

John's East. t-m.. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker, it is just a matter of adjourning debate. I shall say nothing further but move the adoption of the resolution being Motion I on today's Order Paper. On motion resolution adopted. (DIVISION) Those in favour of the resolution please stand: The Ron. Premier, The Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy, The Hon. Minister of Industrial Development, The Hon. Minister of Health, The Hon. Minister of Social Services, The Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, The Hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. The Hoo. Hinister of Tourism, The Ron.

Minister of Public Works and Services, The Hon. Minister of Education, The Hon. Minister of Justice, The Honourable Mr. Marshall, The Hon. Minister of Finance, The Hon. Minister of Fisheries, The Hon. President of the Council, The Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications, The Hon. Minister of Rural Development, Mr. Stagg, Mr. Aylward, Mr. Wells, Mr. Brett, Mr. Peckford, Mr. Senior, Mr. Carter, ~r. Wilson, Hr. Young, Mr. Ev~ns, Mr. Morgan, Mr. Howard,-The Hon. Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Gillett, Mr. Woodward, Capt. Winsor, Mr. Thoms, Mr. Rowe.

Those against the motion please rise: MR. SPEAKER: Thirty-six for and zero against. ?-!R. RORF.RTS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could make a suggestion. We have now in one case unanimously and in another case on a divided decision 3481

April 9, 1974 Tape 1141 l'K - .. or opinion amended Standing Orders quite substantially. I wonder if the House could direct thAt our Standing Orders, the Clerk be asked to correlate them all together, in effect to consolidate them and have· them reprinted because it will be very difficult to work with the documents we now have. Could that be ordered or whatever the procedure is, Sir? ~. SPEA.l<'.E~: MR. SPEAKER: The table will be instructed to get that data, ORDERS OF THE DAY On the ~ddress in Reply, I think it was adjourned the last day by the honourable Member for Twillingate. MR. H. W. C, GILLETT: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, first of all before I commence I would like to express my personal pleasure at seeing the two ministers back with us again after a bout of illness. I trust that they have completely recovered and that they will be able to sit with us at least every day from now on, when they can. Mr. Speaker, I feel that to speak to the Address in Reply almost two and a-half months after the Speech from the Throne was delivered is quite difficult actually.without repeating and repeating 3482

April 9, 1974 Tape no. 1142 Page 1 - mw and repeating what has already been said by speakers on both sides of the House. Furthermore, some of the items mentioned io the Speech from the Throne have already been dealt with. We have had legislation brought forward. It was only today that we have been presented with the Task Force Report on Forestry. MR. WOODWARD: A year later. MR. GIU.ETTE: I shall certainly not spend any time in dealing with the Forestry Policy. I think that will come in due course as we study the Task Force Report and as we deal with the bill that is before the Rouse. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to speak for a few moments on the fisheries though. The fisheries, particularly the inshore fishery, are very close to all of us and particularly those of us who represent districts where the inshore fishery is the i:lainstay of the people of that district. My District of 'lwillingate depends entirely, that is the fishermen depend entirely upon what we call the inshore fishery. We are all looking forward to a policy by the government and in co-operation, as the Premie~ said, with the federal government. So far we have not heard what that policy is.

The fishermen are anxiously awaiting it and I am sure we are. l realize, too, Mr. Speaker, that an industry such as the fisheries is a very difficult industry to control, it is a very difficult industry to set a policy for because the industry consists of self-employed men, particularly as l have already said,in the inshore fishery. Men who are self-employed go out fishing, as they desire to or as they do not desire to go. Kr. Speaker, leadership I believe is the main requisite of the fisheries in Newfoundland today and much more than ever before. the government will just have to provide that leadership.

It will have to provide the financial assistance; it will have to provide the wherewithal of the teaching facilities for the new technologies that we must bring into 3483

April 9, 1974 Tape no. 1142 Page 2 our fisheries. I am very concerned, Mr. Speaker, about the fact that our fisheries seem to be depleted. What is causing it is very controversial, at least in my mind~ I have yet to be convinced that fishing or over-fishing on the Hamilton Banks is responsible for it. It might be but I have yet to be convinced of that. Sometimes I wonder if the widespread use of gill nets is not responsible for the depletion of our fisheries or fish stocks. I know we are inclined to lay all the blame on the foreign fishing fleets on the Hamilton Banks but let us ask ourselves, Mr.

Speaker, why are we not out on the Hamilton Banks also? Why not? Mr. Speaker, I have not heard exactly what happened to the chartered ship that was sent to the Hamilton Banks last year. MR. WOODWARD: MR. GILLETTE: HR. WOODWARD: It never got there. It never got there? No. MR. GILLETTE: I remember asking the question of the Minister of Fisheries last year · concerning crew problems. I am just wondering if our Newfoundlanders are willing and able and prepared to go fishing on the Hamilton Banks as the foreign fleets are. I am wondering. Mr. Speaker, the facility has to be made available for them. That is no excuse.

The facility has to be made available for them. The invitation has to be there for them, the encouragement has to be there, the leadership has to be there. I do not think that in today's way of life that any man can expect or hope to live and support a family for twelve months on what he can earn, whether it be fishing or whether it be in the practice of law or whether it be in medicine or whether it be any kind of employment or profession, in three or four months.

Therefore, the facilities have to be made available, at least, in my opinion , so that a fisherman, if he choose to be an inshore fisherman during the summer months, when I would hope that he would also be a fisherman-farmer as his forefathers were ao that he would fish in the smaller boats antl choo~I" his grounds . Then when the inshore fishery is over 3484

April 9, 1974 tape no. U42 Page 3 in the fall or after the caplin school or whatever the case might be. then theTe is a facility available to him where he can go further afield and continue his profession or his vocation as a fisherman and thereby provide a good livelihood for his family. Mr. Speaker, I do not think, at least I hope ·not, our fishermen want to live on unemployment insurance for seven or eight months of the year. I do not think we should expect them to. The only way we can overcome that. Mr.

Speaker, is by pt:oviding the facilities for them. there is another aspect or another phase of the fisheries, Mr. Speaker, that I would like to mention and that is the salt cod fisheey, which was the mainstay of Newfoundland's fisheey over the centuries. The Minister of Municipal Affait:s is well aware of the role of the salt cod fish industry in Newfoundland. Somehow or other our people lived through ingenuity, through hard work, through providing f~r their _own provisions and most of their food, their gardens and what not - but today- MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, now that they have done their dirty work, the seats are vacant again. Could we have a quorum call? 3485

April 9, 1974 Tape 1143 IB-1 MR. GILLETI'E: ~ay I continue, ~r. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: We hi:tve a quorum. MR. GILLETTE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Included in the ouorum are the Minister of Fisheries and the Minister of finance, two very i~portant men as far as the fisheries are concerned. We were tal~ing about the salt cod fishery. How we go about bringing the salt cod fishery hack into its own, Mr. Speaker, is quite a problem. I admit that I do not have the answers. I wish I did. If I had the answers to our fisheries problems, I would be the most popular man in Newfoundland today.

We all know that the sun-cured, light salted cod fish of Newfoundland was and I would say· still is the best salt cod known anywhere in the world. The only way, I submit, Mr. Speaker, that we can get back to that again, to the sun-cured cod fish, is by the family effort like we always had. Whether or not we can induce our fishermen and their families to do that is another story. Failing that I think technology has to come up with a better way and a better system of curing salt cod. Last week I saw some salt cod being packed,for export I presumed, on the South Side.

It was heavily salted cod, something that was foreign to me at least as heavily salted as tha~ fish was. I could not see, Mr. Speaker~ for the life of me a human being haying to consume it, comparing it with the delicious yellow sun-cured cod that we used to export from this province. If we could get back to that, ~r. Speaker, and here I think that the government, the provincial government along with the federal government is going to have to work out something for our fishermen. The price of salt cod today is such that it is a delicacy. I paid $1.69 a pound which is $189.28 a quintal for it, Mr.

Speaker, believe it or not. So, I think that "We have to try and influence and induce and encourage our people by advertising, by every means possible to get bac~ to salting anrl li~ht salting their cod again, particularly, Mr. Speaker, if we are getting competition Jn the United States, competition vith our cod blocks. Believe me that with the other col.llltries producing 3486

April 9, 1974 Tape 1143 sufficiently to be able to export into the United States, we will be faced with competition. There is no doubt about that. We will be faced with competition, Mr. Speaker. IB-2 Here in the Speech from the Throne · it says that in the field of diversification and development my government anticipates an extremely active year. Now, this is almost the middle of April, ~r. Spea~er, and I do not see too much activity from the Department of Fisheries in developing, in diversifying our fisheries.

"Emphasis will be placed upon the further training and upgrading of our fishermens' skills." Did not the president of the College of Fisheries some time ago publicly state that they are having difficulty in getting young men to come into the College of Fisheries to leam and to upgrade themselves in the more advanced fishing methods? To my mind, Mr. Speaker, this does not speak too well of the fishermen and their desires to remain fishermen. I do not see why,because fishermen today can make as good a livelihood as a man in any other profession or almost any other.profession in this country, in this province.

That is now mind you if he be fishing on a year ro1md basis. So, Mr. Speaker, I would like to see the government make available to the fishemen of Newfoundland and Labrador modem facilities, facilities that will take them out where the fish are, out on the Hamilton Banks, out where we do not even have a dory, out where our quota is not even touched. If we are going to be a fishing province, if we are going to be a fishing nation, let us be that. I think that the time for sitting and waiting for the fish to come to us has long since passed. I often wonder as I go down to the harbour here, Mr.

Speaker, and see the huge fishing boats from other countries and realize the aize and the tremendous effort that these countries are putting into food - they are fishing for food, Mr. Speaker, do not let us fool ourselves. These nations are fishing for food

whereas Newfoundland is fishing actually for money. You cannot, y~u just cannot huy a quintal of fish in Newfoundland today. I doubt if many of the fishennen around our coast have a caplin salted 3.487

April 9, 1974 Tape 1143 IB-3 for their winter, a herring for their winter, a cod . It is a pity! It is a pity! I do not know the answer, Mr. Speaker. Honest to Cod, I do not know the answe r! Sometimes I have an opinion that is not nice. It does not make iood thinking and it does not make good listening when I express it sometimes. In the naoe of God! Can we not do something? Can we not bring I 3488

April 9, 1974 Tape 1144 PK - 1 our fisheries back again? I hate this business of hearing over the radio about the foreign ships out here. These foreigners can understand English too. I wonder what I would say if I were ~000 miles from my home and I could understand their l_anguage and I watched them turn out their lights after the late show was over, just as I was getting ready to make another step,and they were calling out to their members of parliament to drive us away. I wonder what I would say. This is exactly what is happening, ?tr. Speaker, exactly what is ha~nening.

Let us get out there with them. if the fish be there let us get it. Let us provide,not this provincial government alone, it cannot do it bu~ with the federal govemment,together let us provide the ships to take the men out. They will go; do not worry. They go to the seal fishery and they a-re ~on~ for one month. It is just a matter of being introduced to it. Not educated into it, introduced into it. They will go,but get the boats that will take them there.

In the fresh fish industry,! know this is outside of the field of the provincial government but I sincerely hope that before too many 110nths and before too many years at least th~t the Government of Canada will have made arrangements with the Government of the United States so that we will financially b~ able to put up a product in this province ..that is ready to go on the table of the housewife in the United States or any other foreign market and not to be shipped away in cod blocks to give the employment to these importing countries.

The ships that fish on the Hamilton ~anks and on the Grand Banks, ~ from foreign lands,discharge their fish in port, in cartons, frozen, filleted, ready to go into the oven or into the pot. Surely goodness, Mr. Speaker, we can c01:1111and a market if we nut up the proper products attractively. Surely goodness we can do that. There is a lot to be learned,! would think, I do not think we can truck fresh cod from one part of Newfoundland Island to the other in the summer 'lllOnths an~ eXl)ect to tum out a product for human consumption at the other end.

That is ,.,h.:tt we are trying to do.not by choice but because of lack of facilities to take care of the fish properly at the port of entry of the fish. 3489

April 9, 1974 Tape 1144 PK - 2 I have heard mention made of auctioninr the fish from the ' boats. You know that sort of makes me smile, Where could you auction fish in Newfoundland? Who is going to be the buyer? How many buyers would you have? For instance how many buyers would you have in Twillingate where you have one fish plant? Inaudible. ~. ROBERTS: Go ashore? Th~n they would divert to Bonavista or to LaScie. MR. GILLETT: Well that is a possibility, that is the only way. AN HON. MEl'..BER: Out on the high seas - MR. SPEAKER: (STAGG): Order please! AN RON. MEMBER: 1".iddle of the Atlantic. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please! Order please! 'f-!R. GILLETT: That is what is done, Mr, Speaker, in the United Kingdom. For instance, they have to - AN RON. ?~ER: Inaudible, MR, GILLETT: The Captain of a dragger will call.at various ports. If there is an oversupply of fish in the port which is closest to him and the price drops,which does happen,when there is an oversupply the price drops, then he probably has to ~oat least 200 or 300 perhaps• 500 mile~ in order to attain the price that he is seeking,because of a shortage of fish or a stable market.

But what I am asking is thi~: How do you go about doing that .. in Newfoundland? For argument sake a longliner goes out from Twillingate this morning and he comes in in the evening, well even if he got a quarter of a cent more in Bonavista he surely cannot go there. Can he? Let us face it. AN RON. MEMBER: MR. GILLETT: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. GILLETT: Inaudible. Pardon? Inaudible, Yes. Well he does not have the market in any case. We only have a half million people.including Labrador, the Island and Labrador. 3490 ...

April 9, 1974 Tape 1144 PK - 3 The conservation bit, Mr. Speaker, that of course as we all know is something that will have to be worked out on the level of the federal government with the governments of the other countries of the world who are fishing in our waters and on our so-called Continental Shelf. We are not alone,of course. The United States 1s faced with the same problem and they are wondering lrhat to do about it. They too are tryinr, to get a 200 mile limit. Now whether they are going to be able to do this is another matter. We are fortunate.

We have a long coastline with an ocean between us and the other landa. How about the Europen countries who do not have 200 miles between them? So if it becomes universal.which it can, I would say, then it has to be done as d-ipl0118tically as possible. aad I suppose that has been tried on the quota basis. There is nothing unfair about it. If the yield can give a quota to Russia a~~ a quota to West Germany, a quota to Poland and they take that quota, fine, agreed by all of the nations. But they gave Canada a quota and we are not gettinr, a pound of it, not a pound as far as I know.

We did have the "Boston York" out there last year for a while. But other than that, Mr. Speaker, we are not getting a pound of that fish and I think it is a shame on us. Not only a shame on Newfoundland, it is a shame on Canada,- that they are l\Ot going . out there. These countries, Mr. Speaker, when they, finish out here, they have the ships that can take them to the West Coast of Africa and fish. But the little boats that we have - what is that songi~ "God Bless The Little Boats That Go Out From Newfoundland," there is no mistake they are little boats; one week and they have to come in again.

We are not a fishing nat_ion, Mr. Speaker, and we are livin~ in the fish. It ia in our basements and almost we can smell it. n~vertheless, ve are not getting it. I do not know what or where the hundred foot boats will be used ... that we hear of. They are suppose to be in between the offshore fishing and the inshore fishing. Nevertheless, we hear of lon~liners which cannot go out beyond fifteen or twenty miles with their nets because they lose 3491

April 9, 1974 Tape 1144 PK - 4 them, not to the mid-water fishermen but to the foreigners ,. So there is no in between. I do not know where the 100 foot boats are going to be used to any greater advantage than the sixty-five footers are used. I would not want to see an awful lot of money wasted and believe me ~here is going to be a lot of money spent. Whether it is going to be wasted or not,! do not know. I did see a little boat in the shipyard in Maeystown, a little steel boat - AN HON. ME!-fBF.R: Inaudible. MR.

GILLETT: I have never seen ar~thing closer to a sculpin in my life, It was designed by the Halifax firm. I know the men vell 0 They did some work for me once. If I see them again,I am certainly uJing to them about it. Now it might be a good boat.mind you, because Mr . Endel, is a Norwegian and he knows fishing and fishing boats,. It may be a good boat, but I do understand, Hr. Si,eaker, that it is going to cost something like a quarter of a million dollars - a quarter of a million dollars! MR. NEARY: $700,000. They are building longliners down in Marystown ' for MR. GILLETT: Is that a fact? MR.

NEARY: A couple of longliners down in Marystown. MR. GILLETT: Well this was Marystown. MR. NEARY: Seven hundred thousand dollars - (Inaudible). MR. GILLETT: Which, those little steel boats? MR. NEARY: MR. GILLETT: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. GILLETT: MR. BARRY: MR. GILLETT: it could be. AN HO!~. ME1·1BER: MR. GILLETT: 3492 The ones they are building in Marystown. I understood they were going to be $250,000. Inaudible. Pardon? Inaudible. Well I just heard this you know. ~ just heard it but It could be. Inaudjble. It could be.

April 9, 1974 Tape 1145 It could be, Mr. Speaker, but it is an outrageous crime really. You know, Mr. Speaker, having steel boats is fine if there be a dry dock near where you can get your work done. I doubt if we are ready for steel boats yet particularly at that cos·t. Of course, we all know that a fisheTIDan cannot pay for it. It has to be supplied to him on a rental char~e or a rental fee or some way like that, he can never hope to pay for it. IB-1 What I am saying is that he has to have a docking facility. He has to have welders and Cod knows that he has to have pipe fitters and all the rest of it for it.

Whereas with a wooden long liner.if he break a rail, he can go in the woods and chop it and put it on; haul her up, do anything. I had meant to ask the Minister of_ Fisheries long ago the cost of that little boat but I was afraid because I knew that I would be told to put it on the Order Paper and then I would not get the answer, period. AN HONOURABLE m:MBER: Inaudible. MR. GILLETl'E: Yes, I know,but you see it was riot an urgent question, Mr. Speaker, and I wanted to abide by the rules. Mr. Speaker, I only wanted to ask questions that l wanted answers for right away sort ~f. AN HONOURABLE m:?-IBER: Inaudible.

MR. GILLETTE: No. Please do not misunderstand me. However, Mr. Speaker, I have dealt much longer with fisheries than I had ever intended to. As a matter of fact I did not know what I was going to say when I stood on my feet today. I will have to read what I did say to know what I have said. I notice here there is mention made of the prices paid to the fishermen and to the plant workers,which is welcomed I know by all of us. I still wonder if the fishermen are getting enough. There seems to be a wide gap between what the fishermen are getting and $1.69 a pound for salt cod, quite a gap.

I realize also that the fish buyers have to have profits. They have to increase their capacities. They have to increase their facilities. I 3493

.April 9, 19711 Tape 1145 IB-2 think, Mr. Speaker, when we look at our fishery in Newfoundland and we see the fish plants, fishery products, Bonavista Cold Storage and these companies that have an organization, that have a fleet of boats they make available to fishermen, with those facilities all the fisherman has to do is go aboard w1th his clothes bag. I am just wondering if we are not goinr, to have to come to that, Mr. Speaker, in this province.

I am just wondering if we are not goinP, to have to do away with our small boat programme merely because there are no fish for the fishermen to catch now in that type of boat. I mean, have we reached the point of no return? Rave we gone as far as we can go with small boats? Should we get the larger boats? Should we get the huge boats? Should we take our fishermen out where the fish are? I think so. I think perhaps we might be throwing good money after bad • .A lot of fishermen will tell one that, Mr. Speaker.

A lot of fishermen will say that in a year or two from now a long liner will not be worth a cobbler's curse because one will not get crews to go for one thing and there are no fish within their range. The next little item that I had ticked here is the development of the Lower Churchill. Of course, that is not history but the taking over of the shares of BRINCO is now history. >S HONOL'RABLE ~'E"'BER: The "I's" have been dotted and the "T's" have been crossed. MR. GILLF.TTE: Yes, the "I's" have been dotted and the "T's" have been crossed. Let us see what developes, Mr. Speaker, in the Lower Churchill.

Like my colleagues, their are lots of questions to be asked and lots of answers to be provided to the people of Newfoundland. We hope that after tomorrow some of those answers will be provided. The ownership of the province's offshore resources, that is something that has been dealt with at lenith and particularly by this side of the House whose · standard was taken by the government. Rural development, here again, ~r. Speaker, speaking at this late day after the delivery of the Speech from the Throne and after havinR gone 3494

April 9 1 1974 Tape 1145 IB-3 through Rural Development so thoroughly. I have here with me the analysis of the loans and grants up until January 15. This is very interesting. Not too much has been, lent or granted in my district, Mr, Speaker, $23,000. I do hope that the 111inister is going to keep his promise to me and visit Twillingate within the next few days and in fact during the recess. There is a man there waiting very anxiously for him. I hope that he will not disappoint him again. The DREE Programme, ~r.

Speaker, my goodness, how that has been dealt with. ~y colleague from White Bay South spoke at length, very, very effectively I thought, on the DREE Programme, the one billion dollars and the doing away with the special areas, ~r. Speaker. I am not too sure that this administration was responsible for the decision by the Department of Rural and Economic Expansion to cut out special areas all across Canada. I thought that they initiated that themselves, discontinued special areas. So 1 I did not see anything wrong at all with the letters of - A.'111 HONOURABLE 'ME~ER: Information. MR.

GILLETTE: Yes~ information is the word for it. The letters of information and encouragement.and letter of invitation in fact would be perhaps better, tc all the municipal~ties, three hundred and odd in Nevfoundiand,because to tell you the truth, ~r. Speaker, I thought that was exactly the

interpretation thereof. I certainly expected some roads done in my district with the DREE money. The Silver Anniversary is underway. I think a lot of money could be saved on the Silver Anniversary perhaps regardless that the deed has been done; the monies have been voted I I presume by the gove·rnment, for the Silver Anniversary. We do have a lot for which to be thankful. I know that I fo~ one felt very proud to attend the banquet and hear 3495

April 9,. 1974. Tape 1146 RH - 1 Mr. Smallwood speak with the usual vigor about the accomplishments of the last twenty-five years. Now, people who live in St. John's, Mr. Speaker, do not, they cannot appreciate it the same as we can in the outports. They cannot appreciate it the same. Mr.

Speaker, those of us who remember what things were like even before the war but if somebody told me twenty­ five years ago that within a very few years, just a few years, not twenty-five years but just a few years that I would be able to drive down to Herring Neck in an automobile.I would say; "You must be drunk or something because you have to have a long leg and a short one, down to Herrin~ Neck, Moreton's Harbour and these places." AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: All around the circle. MR. GILLETTE: All around the circle.

If somebody had told me twenty- five years ago that I would be able to get in a car in Twillingate and drive on through to St. John's without getting out, I would have said, "You are really crazy!" So we do have a lot for which to be thankful, Mr. Speaker. I am very proud to represent the party,to be on this side of the House, the Liberal side of the House, representing that party which had done so much for Newfoundland in that first twenty-five years of Confederation.

Remember, if this government do as much in the next five, they still will not have done as much as the former administration did because they started from scratch. They laid that foundation and now you can put any amoun~ of weight or any amount of energy into it. The foundation is there for this government or any government in the future • So, Mr. Speaker, let us all, let everyone of us join in the anniversary celebrations, join in the spirit of the anniversary, putting aside all partisan politics, all personal grudges and let us get together. ...

In the Speech from the Throne reference was made to the municipal governments, what this government has planned for municipal governments. MR. SPF.AKER: I wonder if the honourable member would permit me to interrupt. We just have moved the rule which says that an honourable member has forty-five minutes to speak. I assume that that rule is into effect now and I have just been advised by the table that the honourable

April 9, 1974. Tape 1146 RH - 2 member has spoken for some forty minutes. So he has approximately five minutes left to finif1h up. MR. GILL~: Mr. Speaker, how can I get through in the next five min­ utes? Mr. Speaker, I have not even dealt with my district yet. AN HONOURABLE MF.HBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable membe~ by leave, I suppose, could continue. Does the honourable member have leave to go beyond his forty-five minutes? A."{ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. GILLETTE: I wondered about that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please: MR. GILLETTE: Mr.

Speaker, I was very interested in hearing earlier in the afternoon and seeing the paper this morning about the possibility of industries coming into this Province. · One in particular which struck me was the company that might come into this Province and manufacture cement. I have often wondered, Mr.

Speaker, why in Newfoundland vith all the cement that we can produce .here, why we have to build homes with Newfoundland wood which is only good for a few years or any soft wood actually is only good for a few years, at the tremendous cost of $30,000 or $40,000 when we can build homes of concrete that can last for generations. Those of us who have been to the United Kingdom must have appreciated that all the homes in England, practically every home in England is brick, stone or cement, very few wooden homes. The thought occurred to me this afternoon. Why?

Why can we not build- ho~es out of concrete here in N~ - foundland? Why not? They can last for generations. Mr. Speaker, I had better mention my district, otherwise I dare not go back to it. One of the important things I think we need not only in my district but in every district,apart from the roads,{of course, which are, I suppose. they are universally bad roads, until all the ·roads are paved) one very important thin~ I think we need is a vocational training school.

I have received a letter from the principal of one of the three schools in the Twillingate Area telling me that they had a 111eetin~ - this was two or three months ago. I think it was shortly 3497

April 9, 1974. Tape 1146 RH - 3 after I made an announcement that I was going to press the government for a vocational traininp, school. This is something that they have as educators been talking about for quite some time. This vocational training school could be fed by these three central high schools, Tvillingate and two on New World Island; one on New World Island and another on Chapel Island. Mr.

Speaker, I think that is an institution that should be of top priority to this government and I would like the Minister of Finance,who is not in his seat, the Minister of Education,who is not in hi.s seat, to take note, if it be not too late, if he can add a few more thousand dollars in his budget tomorrow for a vocational training school for the Twillingate area. A.~ HONOl'RABLE MEMBER: Ottawa pays seventy-five per cent of the cost. HR. GILLETIE: That is right. Ottawa pays seventy-five per cent of the cost.

I have been asked only today by radio station CBC in Grand Falls what if anything has been decided upon for the old building which will be vacated when our new hospital is completed. I had to admit that nothing has been decided because there are two thoughts; one that it is not feasible to use it- beat it down. Now that is the thoughts of,.I would say of some construction companies, maybe some architects and what not. It is not my thought. My idea is,I believe that we can salva~e it. It is fireproof. It is a concrete building. It is fire­ proof. A."t HONOUR.\BLE MEMBER: Inaudible. HR.

GILLETTE: It is concrete, you see, with concrete partitions and all that. It is reinforced concrete and outside of the reinforced concrete there are concrete blocks. The windows are. old and lea~y, of course. Particularly where the electricity is available in unlimited supply, we could have electric heat in it, having thereby a senior citizens home and a nur~inp, home, a combination senior citizens home and a nursing home. This I look forward to seeing in the not too distant future, 3498

April 9, 1974 Tape no. 114 7 Page l - ~ Mr. Speaker, in Twillingate. I do hope ( I have not been able to evec get a wink from the Minister of Transportation and Communications) Mr. Speaker, that he has right on the top of tha; list the paving of roads in Twillingate. I hope also that he has in mind doing something with the road leading from Indian Cove down to Herring Neck:. It is a very dangerous road, Mr. Speaker. It is very dangerous. The Minister of Tourism, who very kindly supported the petition that I brought in last year or the year before, knows very well how dangerous that road is.

I believe for the past three or four years plans have been to str~ighten the road from Virgin Arm to Morton's Harbour. Now I have two letters of complaint, _ C I have already taken it up with the Deputy Minister of Transportation and Communicationa,as last week the minister was away) about the condition of the road there. Each year they hope or the department hopes that it will get the funds to do something with this road. Let us hope that the Minister of Transportation and Communications has that in mind. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to draw to the attention of the Minister of Rural Development that perhaps when he goes down, he could take a look at Cobb's Arm; Now there is nobody in Cobb's Am mind you who can initiate this limestone quary. As far as I know it is privately owned by the Chalker family. There was a rumour last year, Mr. Speaker, and it was only a rumour,that the limestone quary would be reactivated. There are millions of tons of limestone there. To have that limestone quary reactivated in Cobb's Arm is equal to having the Price Brothers in Grand Falls.

It means just as 111Uch to the people of Cobb's Arm as having the Price Mill in Grand Falls does to the people of Grand Falls or Bowaters to the people of Corner Brook. It means that much to them. Mr. Speaker, I have been in private conversation with Mr. Chalker on several occasions.' He tells me that he is still working on something. I do not know what that something is. I have not questioned him. I do hope, Mr. Speaker, that somebody, even if the government 3499

April 9, 1974 Tape no. 1147 Page 2 itself, through the Department of Rural Development, . make possible the ~eactivation of that limestone quary in Cobb's Arm, ~t would certainly be a godsend. The people need it there. The people of Cobb's Arm in this area, Mr. Speaker, need the revenue. There is nothing too good for them. I hate having to tell them that I have nothing new for them. Mr. Chalk.er has nothing new to tell me. Mr. Speaker, I am wondering if the Minister of Rural Development will be kind enough to go and see that limestone ~uary. It is just about five minutes ride from there, when he goes down. Mr.

Speaker, I have gone over my time. It has been a long time since the Speech from the Throne was read, so long that I did not think it was necessary to go through the formalities of welcoming, although he was not here this afternoon, our latest member on this side of the House, the Member for Hermitage. I hope he will add to the House and I am sure he will. I hope he will add to the Liberal Party and I am sure he will. Mr.

Speaker, I can only hope that after tomorrow,when we hear all the good news about which the Leader of the Opposition told us and told the people of Newfoundland this morning that the Minister of Finance has for us tomorrow, we will all be able to gather around the various ministers in the various departments and get the assurances from the various ministers that the roads will be done, that the nursing home will be built and that a vocational training school will be built in the Twillingate Area and all the other areas, Mr. Speaker, and we will all be one big happy family. MR. SPEAKER: wish tg speak? MR.

WOODWARD: Is the House ready for the question? Does another member I would like to adjourn the debate, Mr. Speaker. I would like to spe~k later, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: It is noted that the Hon. Member for Labrador North has adjourned the debate. 3500

April 9, 1974 Tape no. 114 7 Page 3 MR. MARSHALL: Perhaps the honourable member would like to speak and then I can get the minister up with respect to the specific amendment for his bill in committee,at a convenient time,but he is not to speak any more than forty-five minutes or much less than that I hope. I understand that the Hon. Member for Labrador North is then going to be the last speaker, in other words the clean-up hitter,and then we can perhaps, hopefully, put the Address in Reply and get it disposed of. Okayl MR. WOODWARD: Mr.

Speaker, the last time I spoke on the amendment to the non-confidence motion to the Speech from the Throne, there are a number of new things that have surfaced since that particular time and I am thinking in terms of of the new lights that have been thrown on the development of the hydro potential on the Lower Churchill. I thought it would be fitting and appropriate at this time for me to speak on that aspect of the developments in our province. It is indeed, Sir, in my District of Labrador North. Mr.

Speaker, althoqgh we welcome the change that the government have taken, there are still great elements of doubt left in the minds of the people who reside in Labrador North and indeea people-who reside in the whole of the Labra~or Area. Why I speak in this tone, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that I have seen so much drowsiness today and so many people yawning and wanting to go to sleep and I feel that if we are going to debate seriously in this honourable House, then we should . at least ~ut some effort into it and be a little ambitious about what we are doing.

I have seen very little taking place since ... this sesdion of the Bouse started. There has been no business conducted in this House and the House has taken on an air of apathy, a great air of apathy and I suspect that if we are going to waste our time and slumber along, we might as well try to bring some real semblance of ambition and real semblance of trying to progress according to the wishes and to meet the needs of the people of this province. 3501

April 9, 1974 Tape no. 1147 Page 4 The change in government as far as the Lower Churchill Development, the for sale by BRINCO of the assets and to control the mineral and the water rights that that company was holding in Labrador,is of great concern to the people of Labrador North and indeed the people of the whole of Labrador. Our concern, Sir, is not as much for the government's financing of this particular project but how are we going to develop it and finance it. Who will benefit by the developing of that great hydro potential?

I have repeated here on a number of occasions over the last two years, when I stood in this House, that Labrador has been raped of its resources. It has been raped of its minerals and very little has gone back into Labrador to sustain the younger people and the people who live in that area. It has been raped of its fish. It has been taken and processed in other areas; chiefly. the island portion of the province.

We are gravely concerned and afraid that the great hydro potential will indeed be exported out of the province and no effort made on the part of this administration to attract industry to that portion of the province. Mr. Speaker, this i~ of great concern to our people. It is one of the greatest concerns of our people and it is a concern, Sir. If there is no industry put into that portion of the province, I will venture to say here now that it is very unlikely that that development will go ahead.

I am sure, and I do not want to cite any measures today, any drastic measures that will be taken by the people of the District of Labrador, Sir, if no serious attempt - all we have heard is that we are going to use that potential to develop industry on the Island of Newfoundland. Why do we have to develop industry on the Island of Newfoundland when there is a need to develop industry right on the spot where the hydro potential lies today? 3502

April 9, 1974 Tape No. 1148 Page 1 MR M. WOODWARD: One of the great concerns of ours, Sir, and the Hon. Minister of T~ansportation,and Communications is not in his seat today; is the fact that we have heard so much about the Trans-Labrador Highway. This Trans-Labrador Highway, as I see it now, when this particular administration is negotiating with the federal people in Ottawa for funding of a transmission line dO'l.."t\ to the Island, there is indeed a concern because we know and I know for a fact that the federal people in Ottawa have asked this province •·what do you want?

Do you want a transmission line or do you want a Trans-Labrador Highway?" and the province has been saying and yes, Sir, and I will repeat it here in this honourable House, the province has said; ''Our priorities are set towards developing industry on the island portion of the province." And I see in the paper today where that type of industry is talked about on the west coast of Newfoundland, on the south coast of Newfoundland; and this may indeed, Mr. Speaker, jeopardize the development of a Trans-Labrador Highway and leave forty-eight thousand people in utter isolation, again for a long period of time.

AN HONOURABLE Mn!BER: Would the honourable member peTl'llit a question? MR WOODWARD: No, I will not permit the honourable member's question. I know what the stupid question is going to be. MR BARRY: On a point of order! Now there is no need for the honourable gentleman! It is bad enough to have our ears dTIJl!'lllled to the point of being broken by the bawling of the honourable gentleman on the other side. MR SPEAKER: Order! MR BARRY: I am getting to the point of order. There is no need for the honourable gentleman to be insulting.

The point that he is overlooking and misleading the people·of Newfoundland on and misleading this House on is that it is only a transmission line cons"tructed to the Goose Bay - Happy Valley Area. 3503

Now I ask the honourable gentleman, put the choice to him: If that be what the federal government are saying; "Take your choice between this Lower Churchill development and the Trans-Labrador Highway," What does the honourable gentleman want? Does he want no hydro development to go into the Goose Bay -Happy Valley Area? MR P.OBERTS: }!r. Speaker, may I speak to that point of order? I suggest that the schoolboy debater is deliberately trying to enter into the debate under the.guise- A:l HO!lOL"'PABLE ~-'.E~'.BER: Schoolboy lawyer in fact. MP. ROBERTS: Hr.

Speaker, I am not even a schoolboy lawyer, I am senior to the honourable gentleman at the Bar as well as in the House, not alone anywhere else. Mr. Speaker, I have a perfect record of cases at the Bar and I may add I have won more elections than the honourable gentleman, and I shall win more of both. The schoolboy debater is entering into the debate under the guise of a point of order. I suggest his point of order is specious and that my friend and colleague from Labrador ~orth should be allowed to proceed without this highschool harassment. MR SPEAKER: Order, please! I feel that the point raised by the Hon.

Minister of Mines and Energy is indeed not a point of order but it is a method for him to express an, opinion as to something the honourable member for Labrador North said. A!l IlO~:Ot"RABLE MEMBER: An excuse. MR SPEAKER: Order! MR WOODWARD: Thank you, Hr. Speaker! What I was saying, Mr. Speaker, and it is factual; the Hon. Minister of Energy, ¥.ines and Resources, or whatever his title i~, can say what he liker, but there is a question of what do we finance; in Ottawa.

"Will we finance the transmission line at a cost of five hundred million dollars, down to the Island of Newfoundland, to bring industry, to attract industry to the island - AN llO!WL"RAELf. t-'F.~'BER: Interruption inaudible. ~m WOODWARD: r.oose Bay - Happy Valley is very insignificant, Sir. There is no ciuc-stfon about that in the bcginninr,. There i!'I no question Sir, when these non-neP,otiable items were put in last year's budget by the lion. Minister of Finance for the Brinco people. There is no 3ti04

April 9, 1974 Tape No. 1148 Page J question. They can never even question the fact of running a secondary line down to Goose Bay - Happy Valley, to feed them electricity. They would indeed do it if they were not even asked by the government to do it. What I am indeed talking about, Sir, is a five hundred million dollar ' transmission line to take that power down to the Island of Newfoundland,to feed it into the grid on this island.

That, Sir, is very doubtful by a lot of people, a lot of the experts, even the people here that read this report, that Zinder and Teshmont are saying that they do not know whether it would be feasible or not to bring it down to the island. Is that right, The Brinco people are in doubt if it is feasible to take it across the Straits of Belle Isle or not. So, Mr. Speaker, these are areas where I am concerned. These are areas where people that have elected to live in Labrador are concerned.

They are concerned about having a hydro development that is going to last for a period of four to five years, with a potential of some three million horsepower, and all of a sudden you get down to a workforce of maybe fifteen, twenty or thirty persons, and then your great resource is flowing towards the island or flowing away into Quebec with no attraction at all to develop what is already there in that portion of the island. And we have seen it over the years, as I said the fishery has been robbed; now you rob the minerals - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The honourable member does not know what he is talking about.

MR WOODWARD: "Do not know what we are talking about'." We have not seen it, we have not lived with it? The Hon. Minister of Energy and Mines has probably spent two days in Labrador in his lifetime, and that i~ the feeling and the affection that he has for it, like his colleagues in cabinet, just rape it,bring it away, take it out, this is a by-~oncern. ?,fr. Speaker, we will not, and I will repeat this, we will not stand for the jeopardization of the Trans-Labrador Highway just for that potential, just to supply power to develop the Island of 3505

April 9, 1974 Tape No. 1148 Ne-wfoundland. It is very unfair. AN HONOURABLE ~!::!!BF.R: Who is jeopardizing it? · MR WOODWARD: The honourable minister is. MR BARRY: How? Page 4 MR WOODWARD: lie is jeopardizing it because they. a,sked for the transmission line versus the Trans-Labrador Highway. MR :~EARY: To a point of order! Mr. Speaker, my colleague is being continuously interrupted by the ignorant and arrogant ~inister of Mines, Sir. I wonder if you could get the minister to restrain himself,because the member should be permitted, Sir, to be heard in silence. Could I have a ruling, Your Honour? l!R.

SPEAKER: Order, please. I am sure all honourable members ate aware that when an honourable member is speaking he does have the right to be heard in silence; and the point raised by the Hon. ¥ember for Bell Island, referring to the honourable minister's behaviour I think that sort of borders on the line of being a little unparliamentary . MR NEARY: Ignorant of the rules of this honourable House, Sir. I thinl: that would be in order, Your Honour.

Ignorant of the rules of the House. ?-!R SPEAY.ER: When the honourable ~ember for Bell Island mentioned the word ignorant he did not specify in which light he had meant it. MR NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there are a variety ~f ways - MR SPEARER: Does the honourable ffember for Labrador North wish to continue? MR WOODWARD: Thank you, Hr. Speaker!

As I was ·saying, there is a big concern, there is indeed a big c~ncern that exists among the ~ people that live in Labrador. the people that are rearin~ families and the people that have elected to live there; They are afraid of being raped of their resources, they are afraid to raise families there becau5e they feel that there will not be anything left for them, it vill be exported and sold. I will repeat; they are afraid of being raped of their resources. Sir, which we consider it to be; their resources. 3506

April. 9, 1974 Tape No. 1148 Page 5 There ii, no consulting the people of Labrador concerning the decision of government to take over the Lower Churchill Development. They did not consult the people and ask: "What do you want? Do you want us to run a transmission line down through the Island of Newfoundland and ask the federal _government to finance 3507

April 9, 1974 Tape no. 1149 PK - 1 this particular transmission line at a cost of $500 million or do you want us to go ahead and negotiate seriously for a Trans-Labr~dor Highway?" I saw that brief, Sir. I saw that joint brief that was presented to government on behalf of Quebec and this particular administration over here. It was merely fourteen pages of pure generalities.

There were no serious attempts, Sir, to have the federal government to start negotiating for the construction of a Trans Labrador Highway, There was no concern; there was a weak attempt, a schoolboy attempt, where a guy goes up and says; "Look,I want a Trans-Labrador Highway"- fourteen pages of pure generalities. The expenditure on that highway is going to be $450 million. ' KR.BARRY: If the honourable member do not think the _government are going to build a highway, then why ~she worried? KR. WOODWARD: Why am I worried?

It is about the lack of concern on the part of the honourable minister's administration, if I may talk · directly. This is my concern. A schoolkid would not have done it, the proposal that was made to Ottawa on behalf of this government concerning that Trans-Labrador Highway. We have talked about it for years. For three years this administration have been going to Labrador and saying; "Yes, we are going to sit down and negotiate a Trans-Labrador Highway for you. We recognize the fact that we must have federaJ participation in that particular venture." How serious were the administration across the way, Mr.

Speaker? They were not very serious at all. We discovered that when we had a copy of the report. KR. BARRY: Does the honourable member know. how much road is going to be built in the construction of Gull Island? HR . WOODWARD: The road that is going to be built in the construction of Gull Island has already been built, Hr. Speaker. This is what has .... been done. Thie is the great concern. It is a great concern to the people of that portion of the province. 3508

April 9, 1974 Tape 1149 PK - 2 Mr. Speaker, I would like to p,ive a little closer and I have a few choice words here concerning the government's involvement in the Labrador Linerboard operation in Goose Bay.

Then again the people not only of Labrador should be a little concerned, I think they should be gravely concerned when they see the government taking over such a gigantic venture as the development of the Lower Churchill, when they see the mess that exists with the woods harvesting operation and the Linerboard Mill in Stephenville. t could go on and I could recite the mess that exists at the Burgeo Fish Plant and how eager they are to dutll1) that particular venture, Mr. Spea_ker.

Now they have agr~ed to take on $1 billion hydro development on the Lower Churchill,and let us see the mess that they will make out of that before it is finlshed, Mr. Speaker and the cost it will be to the taxpayers of this province. I have just made a visit to Ottawa and there are a number of things that I have talked about. One of the very disturbing things, Mr.

Speaker; is the fact that went the administration sent up their shopping list for thei~ OREE programmes ·this year, I would like to bring to the attention of this House that there was not one, not one particular project in Labrador that is going to be financed by OREE this year. There was not one on the shopping list. Not one for the whole of Labrador. There is no water and sewer. There is no paving of roads under the OREE progranne. There are no new DREE schools. But they are a very s.erious group, they like to come in and rape what · someone has but to put.something back in is an entirely different story, Mr.

Speaker. I marvel at the gall of the administration. I think it is sickening. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WOODWARD: It is sickening. The hr,nourable member knot.s 1110re about th~ dead than I do, So, Mr. Speaker, getting back to the Goose Bay Area, I have a few suggests that I am going to pass along to the gbvernment concerning the future development of that particular area where we have 12,000 3509

April 9, 1974 Tape 1149 PK - 3 people and we have had a change in the economy by the military moving away, to some degree, and what part the provincial and federal governments should play to stablize the economy of that particular area, so that we will not have a downgrading or we will not lose any of the potential that already exist there. It was assumed, Mr. Soeaker, at the outset of the American Base, after 1976, would no longer be a major factor in the economic life of the Goose Bay Area. However, a number of alternative activities exists.

But nevertheless with good future potentials taken individually,new single alternative activity ~s likely to sustain the economy of the region as its current level. Then taken collectively there appears every chance that the elements of future growth described belot1 can not only be replace their present defence oriented local economy but provide a finn basis for a stable future economy and a social growth pattern which ~'111 be to a large extent self-sustaining.

I would like to offer this to the administration and to the House as to what should take place to have that self-sustaining growth maintained in that community, Mr. Speaker. Si% elements of future growth have been identified. This does not imply that there is a limit to any · such element but that the six have been identified as J.ppearing at this time to afford the best potential for future economic growth upon which stable community development can depend. The first three elements are wj.th varying degrees of success already active and the last three remains to be developed at some future date.

I would like for the Hon. Minister of Economic Development to pay attention and take that smirky, greasy smile of his face;he may learn something. AN HON. MEMBER.: MR. WOODWARD: MR. ROBERTS: MR. woonWARD: Inaudible. A very serious individual. Inaudible. The seriousness of the House vis-e-vis - Forestry and Lumber Industry - this is closely allied to the 3510

April 9, 1974 Tape 1149 · PK - 4 operations of Labrador Linerboard Limited. They may listen to this and pay particular attention, it is very important. The direction that the government have given to the Labrador Linerboard operation may need some close scrutiny if theyare going to protect the interest of the public of Newfoundland and Labrador. There are a lot of unnecessary dollars slippin~ away. It may be wise to pay s0111e attention to it. This is closely allied to the operation of Labrador Linerboard Limited in the movement of pulp wood to the mills on the Island of Newfoundland.

As the only economic activity that currently offers a significant alternative to the military base operation,considerable efforts are being made to strengthen and improve its function and the facilities necessary for its continuing success. No.table among these is the analysis of the marine transportation of pulp wood between Goose Bay and Stephenville~ now completed.

The investment in the dock facilities at each of these teTID.inal points, this is something that the community has been asking for and the dock facilities,and no efforts have been made on the part of the provincial government either, to try and o.btain funds for the improvement of dock facilities for the Labrado~ Linetboard operation through getting federal funds. There is nothing been done. The w~ole port is in chaos and corruption. The,-made-no attempt AN HON. MEMBER: It is not true. MR. WOODWARD: It is true, MR, ROBERTS: visited there. AN RON. MEMBER: The honourable member lived there,and he has not even MR.

ROBERTS: Inaudible. Inaudible. 3511

April 9, 1974 Tape 1150 IB-1 MR . WOODWARD: Both of these are predicated upon the continuation of · the liner board oreration as a viable industry that will have significant input into the regional and provincial economy. Along similar lines manpower training programmes of both federal and provincial levels are being developed to assist the local pulpwood industry. At the social and community level it has been recognized that the lack of adequate housing at Goose Bay for married liner board employees has seriously handicapped the company in stabilizing its operation.

The provision of improved housing and commtmity facilities is now a priority item which should be taken into consideration. I hope that the liner board operation or the people that are managing the liner board operation are concerned about this aspect. This 1£ the reason why, it is the lack of adequate housing and community facilities. I would just like to put that before the House and the administration 1 that they will take particular notice of it, Mr. Speaker. I would like to say a few words on tourism. The minister is not here.

At the present time a significant number of visitors to the Goose Bay Area are attracted in the summer months by the availability of excellent fishing resources in the hinterlands. We do have some excellent fishing resources, Mr. Speaker, some of the greatest in C~nada. Very little has been done about trying to develop this sort of an operation. We have now a number of people who have made application for tourish lodges and indeed one particular person has been given a rural development grant and the Crown Lands Division of Forestry and Agriculture has turned him down.

It says, "We cannot give you any land until such time as we have proper planning done." -r So, I suspect what they should do is, the groups that are dishing out the money should get together with the other agencies, Mr. Speaker, and make sure before they give a guy a grant that he has been cleared and is in a position to go ahead with his project, . rather than on one hand the government is advancing money and on the other hand there is another agency turning around and sayinp;, "Look, we cannot: help you because we 3512

April g • 1974 Tape 1150 18-2 have not done our plannin~ and until such time as our plannin~ is made, then t.1e will r,ive you land to develop." We would like to see, Mr. Speaker, some government input into an administrative center for Labrador, in the Goose Bay. Happy Valley Area. We would like to see a well-equipped administrative center for Eastern Labrador. In many respects he has already pledged this role, Certain federal and provincial government offices are located in the area.

With the growing importance of Labrador and the national and provincial scene and the requirements for closer contacts between the people of Labrador and various government agencies, the formal establishment of such an administrative center within the community might be of great benefit to the community. Such a center could play the triple role of providing a government identity .in the area. One can see a great lack of government administration not only in the Goose Bay, Happy Valley Area but in the whole of Labrador• Mr. Speaker, there is a great lack of government administration.

As a matter of fact there is none. Government is nonexistent in that par~ of the province. We would see this center as permitting Labrador affairs to be conducted from within the territorial boundaries and expanding local territorial employment. In addition an administrative center for senior government needs could be combined with the potential requirement for a new local government center to symbolize a newly integrate4 community of Goose Bay, Happy Valley and to serve its needs. We would like to combine some provincial administration with the local town administrations, Mr.

Speaker, so this thing could be done, We also see the use of the former M,O.T. buildings grouped at the North side of Goose Air Base as a potential industrial area as ·. has been considered in very general terms. The preparation of a community industrial profile is under way. This is being done by a federal agency. With a community industrial profile 3513

April 9, 1974 Tape 1150 IB-3 complP.teu, it may be feasible to embark upon a modest promotional campaign using the services and offices of the executive secretary of the project group which is being paid for by the federal people. This officer has professional experience with· the Northwest Territorial Government in developing industrial and commercial growth in northern communities. We would like to see the government, the provincial government, follow through with this idea, Mr. Speaker. We would like to think in terms of, Mr.

Speaker, if a decision be made)which I suspect it will now over the coming abouts of the last negotiations with the BRINCO people, the start on the Lower Churchill, If a decision be made to develop the hydroelectric potential at the Lower Churchill Falls either as a power source for the Island of New~ foundland or elsewhere, the impact on th~ r,oose Bay, Happy Valley community will be considered. It is reasonable to assume that the abundance of power at Goose Bay could prove a very substantial attraction to the area from the viewpoint of potential investors.

An investigation into ind~stry by a heavy electric power demand and an ability to be econo~ically self-sustainin~ in a relatively remote location is now under vay. We also look at community services. This particular development; Mr.

Speaker, looking at utilization of some of the surplus buildings . ' that already exist in Goose Bay to attract the developers, whoever is going to develop the Falls,and attract the number of contractors into the Goose Bay area so that the spin-off can go directly into the local economy and not to be housed at the site some fifty-six miles away from that community, such as the Gull Island Site. We like to think in terms of the government givinP, direction .in this respect so that the c~unity of r.oose Bay, Happy Valley can benefit greatly by this development if and vhen it does get started.

I have mentioned the fact that these are a number of things that we would like to see done concerning the Goose Bay area. I have not yet gotten into, Mr. Speaker - I do not know how much time I have left. 3514

April 9, 1974 Tape 1150 IB-4 ~!R. SPEAKER: Approximately fifteen minutes. MR. woonWARD: I would like to touch briefly on what is happening in the coastal communities. We have made representat1on to the provincial government concerning air strips for a n4mber of the remote areas. No attempt has been made by this government to sit do~m and negotiate with the federal government as far as providing air strips to up~rade the existing air service that exists on the Labrador Coast. No attempt has been made by this government to take a look at the fishery in Northern Labrador.

I have written a letter to the minister some time ago, some six weeks ago, the Minister of Fisheries, concerning a problem that exists in an area whereby some abandoned fishin~ premises were taken over by a bunch of people that have come in from Newfoundland. I wrote and asked the minister if he would investi~ate. I have had no reply to my letter.

As I mentioned here in this House,going back about two months ago, there is great concern by the local fishermen because of longliner fishen:ien coming down and taking advantage of the local fishermen by going into certain areas and putting out 100 salmon nets and taking the berths away from the fishermen in that particular area. I have asked the Federal Department of Fisheries if they_ would see fit to set up some local fishing regulations

whereas the local fishermen would have exclusive rights to some of these areas~which they have agreed to do. The Department of Fisheries, the Provincial Department of Fisheries, the minister, Mr. Speaker, has made no attempt and has -completely ignored my letter. I did not ~ven get a reply. Mr. Speaker, as far as the rural development is concerned.to think in ~erms of the number of grants that have went into Labrador, , I think there are three in total for the 1•hole of Labrador. So, this is how· serious the Department of Rural Development is in developing that hinterland of the province they call Labrador.

So, Mr. Speaker, these are a few words that I have said, that I think that the government should pay special attention to. I do not 3515

April 9 , 1974 Tape 1150 IB-5 think that the develo pment of the water resources in Labrador should be used exclusively for some outside source and other pe9ple should benef it. Some of the benefit should go to the people that reside in that portion of t he province. If this i~ not to be the case·~- Mr •. Speaker, then I em sure that t he people will see fit in that portion of the provin ce to take some measures whereby they will share in some of the benefits. MR. ~EARY: !'!r. Speaker, before Your Honour puts the question, I would like to point out to the House that I still have forty-five minutes if I wish to use it in the Throne Speech. I do not wish to assert my 351i

April 9, 1974. Tape 1151 RH - 1: rights in the House at this time but I just want to draw it to the attention of the honourable House that when I spoke in the Throne Speech it was by leave of the House and if I wanted to.according to the rules of this House.,! could speak for another forty-five rrl.nutes. I do not intend to do it, Sir, but I want to thank the members - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Going to accommodate the mecbers. MR. NEARY: I am going to acco11111lodate the Rouse Leader in the 2,overn- ment, Sir, but I just want to thank the members for letting me speak, by leave of the House. MR.

ROBERTS: We hope they will do it again. MR. SPEAKER: Is the Rouse ready for the question? The motion is that the Address in Reply entitled as follows, ''May it please Your Honour, we the commons of Newfoundland~ in Legislative Session Assembled, beg to thank Your Honour for the gracious speech which Your Honour has addressed to this House." It is signed by the Hon. Member for Bonavista South; the Hon. Member for Harbour Grace and the Ron. Member for Hermitage.

Motion, that the Address in Reply be submitted to His Honour, carried: MOTION, that the Rouse resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on sundry billsa AN HONOURABLE ME'·mER: The member for Fogo act as Chairman of Cmaittee. . MR. NEARY: The member for Fogo, Sir. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, no. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I move the House now adjourn in the absense of a Chairman. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman can only speak from his own place in the House. MR. MARSHALL: The Chairman of Committees is at present available.

I move, in his absense until he comes back, that the honourable the member for St. John's South act as Chairman of Committees. AN HO!-fOURABLE MEMRr.R: Here! Here! 3517 ...

April 9, 1974. Tape 1151 RH - 2 HR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. John's South. On motion, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE: Chairman: The honourable member for St. John's South. Order, please! A bill, "An Act To Repeal The Gift Tax Act." On motion, clauses (1) and (2) carried. MR. CROSBIE: When this bill was debated on second reading several mem- hers opposite questioned the fact as to why it was going to comelnto force on the first of January, 1975.

So I said I would check with the govern­ ment in Ottawa or the Department of Finance and see if they had any ob­ jection to it being terminated earlier. There is no objection if the - . · Committee would wish to do that. AR HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. HR. CROSBIE: Today. No, the best thing to do would be to change it to today. So I will therefore move that Clause (3) be changed to read; This act should come to force the ninth day of April, 1974. HR. NF..ARY: Mr.

Chaiman, I wonder if I could ask the minister if it is the intention.of the government to refund the money that has been collected from all the estates of those who have passed on prior to cancellation of this. ~. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, anyone who has become deceased before the ninth day of April, 1974, will be subject to the full panoply of the lav. On l!IOtion Clause 3, as amended, carried: Motion, that the committee report having passed the bill vith some amendment, carried: A bill, "An Act To Repeal The Succession Duty Act, 1972." HR. CROSBIE: ~r.

Chairman, I move an amendment to clause (3) where it would read; "This Act shall come in to force on the ninth day of April, 1974." HR. ROBERTS: Hr. Chairman, for the record, the honourable gentleman :f ntroduced thr•se b:f 11 s and as Your Honour will rule, I am sure, 3518

April 9, 1974, Tape 1151, Page 3 -- apb he cannot amend his own bill in co111111ittee. My honourable is even willing to do it. That might be a unique thing but the point is that a minister cannot amend his own bill in colllr.littee. 1'1Jl. NEAAY: Mr. Chainnan, I ask the minister the same question. I know he is ioing to give me the same answer. Will there be a refund to all those? MR. CROSBIE: No refund. MR. NEARY: No refund. On motion clause (3) as amended, carried. lfotion, that the committee report having passed the bill with some amendment, carried.

A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Gasoline Tax Act. 11 Motion, that the committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Petroleum And Natural Gas Act." Motion, that the cOlllllittee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. 3519

April 9, 1974 Tape No. 1152 A Bill, "An Act To Repeal The Debentures Of The Province Act." NM - 1, Motion that the committee report having passed the Bill without amendment, carried. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Undeveloped Mineral Areas Act." Motion that the committee report having passed the Bill without amendment, carried. A Bill, "An Act To Repeal The Property Loss Reserve Fund Act." Mi:'ti~n,that the committee report having passed · the Bill without amendment, carried. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Assessment Act." Motion that the committee report having passed the Bill without amendment, carried. MR.

MARSHALL: I should compliment Your Honour for the marvellous job that you just did , in the very short period of time and on such short notice. Very seldom have men been called to such high estates and acquitted themselves s~ aimiably as Your Honour. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I would_ like to associate myself with that motion. The way Your Honour jumped into the, as it were the breach in the untimely absence of the Deputy Speaker who is not only incompetent but appparently absent,and I do compliment Your Honour on the - AN HON. MEMBER: Shamel MR. ROBERTS: Shame,what does he mean shame?

It is a shame he was absent,I would agree. The man is being paid $6,000 or $7,000 a year to be here. The other thing I would compliment Your Honour on is the way in which Your Honour dealt with the ruling that was raied. Your Honour and I last year had a passage of arms over a ruling but I am glad to.see that Your Honour has come a long way and I hope I have come a long way as well. So it is a job well done. MR. MARSHALL: Inaudible. 3520

April 9, 1974 Tape No. 1152 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. a guarantee from the honourable the House Leader would not be worth the paper it was written on, assuming he could write. MR. MARSHALL: Inaudible. MR, 'WM. ROWE: That would be a good thing. He should write that. ''Witch-hunt," On motion that the committee rise and report having passed Bills Nos. 11. 26. 27 0 47 and 45 without amendment and Bills Nos. 1 and 4 with amendment. Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair, MR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker. the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having passed Bills Nos. 1 and 4 with some amendment. On motion report received and adopted. On motion amendments read~ first and second time, On motion Bills Nos. 1 and 4 ordered read a third time presently by leave. On motion a Rill. "An Act To l.epeal The Gift Tax Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title he as on the Order Paper. On motion a Bill. "An Act To Repeal The Succession Duty Act," read a third time. ordered passed and title be as on the · Order Paper. MR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report Bills Nos. 11, 24. 26, 27, 47 and 45 witliout amendment, On motion report received and adopted • . On motion bills ordered read a third time presently, by leave~ On motion, a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Gasoline Tax Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion. a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend 'Ihe Petroleum And Natural Gas Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. 3521

April 9, 1974 Tape No. 1152 NM - 3 On motion, a Bill, "An Act To Repeal The Debentures Of The Province Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a Bill, "An Act 'to Amend The Undeveloped Mineral Areas Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a Bill, "An Act To Repeal The Property Loss Res~rve Fund Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Assessment Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper.

Motion second reading of a .Bill, "An Act To Amend The Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing Act:" MR. SPEAKER: This was in second reading.I think the honourable member for Bell Island adjourned the debate on that Bill last night, Bill no. 46, order 31. MR. ~EARY: Mr. Speaker, I have nothing to add to what I have already spoken on this Bill, Sir. The goverument are so arrogant, Sir, and 3522

April 9, 1974 Tape 1153 PK - 1 so insensitive to the real needs of the people of this province, they are not going to listen to the people. They are not going to do any- thinr, about it any way, Sir. I am not throwing up my hands in defeat. I will continue to fight this matter, Sir, both inside and outside of the Rouse. The government would be well advised if they would listen to the people for a change instead of ignoring the peonle. I do not think, Sir, that anything that I could say, anything further that I could say would change their minds.

They have adopted, they have dug in, and they have become very arrogant and they have no intention of listening to the people or doing anything about the real needs of the people in this province, Sir. MR. SPEAKKr. : MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. Is the honourable gentleman closing the debate? Yes, he is. Oh, well let me say a word or two because I am against this bill. Mr. Speaker, the reasons of the honourable gentleman for Bell Island.his customary verveand eloquence have of course moved me deeply.

But even if it were not for his agruments,I would be against it becatlae I think that this is the wrong move. The act in question which we a~e being asked to move from the Minister of Municipal Affairs to the Minister of Industrial Development in fact has been moved. We are just being asked to tidy up the 8;Ct. So in that sense this is a meaningless bill. It is not meaningless, Sir, when you consider the principle of it. I do not intend to go on at any length bu~ I do want to note that originally the Development Areas Lands Act,so called,was administered by the old Departl!lent of Economic Development.

Then it was moved after some considerable consideration initiated I believe by the present Minister of Finance, while he vas Minister ~f Municipal Affairs in the Smallwood Administration. I think it was moved correctly to the jurisdiction of the Minister of ~unicipal Affairs. Without going into the Development Areas Lands Act,it. dves the minister power to freeze certain areas of land in connection with the development of either industrial areas or the development of the 3523

Aoril 9, 1974 Tape 1153 PK - 2 community that services industrial areas. I think that power should have remained with the Minister of ~!unicipal Affairs. He would obviously . exercise it in concert with the !'inister of Industrial Development, with the cabinet in general of course. Although act· after act gives a minister the power to do or not to do a certain thing,_ We know ministers do not act alone or if they do once they do not the second time. Ministers function as part of a cabinet.

The Minister of Forestry will be p;iven certain pcn,·ers if the Forestry Bill becomes law but he will not exercise these powers just on his o~-n, on a frolic of his own, he will exercise them as part of implementing,presumably thought .out and a concerted policy, and exercise them after having sounded his colleagues in the cabinet to get their general agreement. That is true of minister after minister and act after act. But I do think it is a mistake to move this out. I think the Development Areas Lands Act is

an act that is primarily concerned with mumicipal development and should be concerned with municipal develop- ment. True municipal development, Sir, is ancillary to and often resultant from industria