LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Presenting Petitions . . Reading and Receiving Petitions ... Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees ... MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. VIC SCHROEDER (Rossmere): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a statement I'd like to make at this time. I have copies for distribution. Mr. Speake r, I would like to announce that I have arranged -(I nterjection)- I should say, Mr.

Speake r, that I had given to the honourable member, who is the Finance critic, notice since last night of this announcement. I would like to announce that I have arranged for the issue and sale of Province of Mani­ toba 15 -year debentures in the United States public market in the amount of $2 00 million U.S. , to be dated March 15, 1982. The debentures will bear interest at the rate of 14 .75 percent and were sold at a price of 98.25 to yield the investor 15 .05 percent, a rate which I consider very favourable in light of recent market conditions. The debentures are callable at par after 12 years.

These bonds were sold through the province's American Underwriters led by the First Boston Corpo­ ration and including Salomon Brothers; Merrill Lynch Pierce Fenner and Smith; Wood Gundy and Richard­ son Securities. This is the largest single issue ever negotiated by the Province of Manitoba. I am advised by our underwriters that the entire issue was sold quickly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. BRIAN RANSOM (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Spea ker, I would offer my congratulations to the staff of the Minister of Finance for doing what was obviously a very commendable job of getting money bor rowed in a market that is not too favourable. I do have some questions in my mind as to what the requirement is for this particular bor rowing, since the borr owing requirements of the government had been estimated at $2 50 million, previously had bor rowed $172 million in Canadian funds, $15 0 million U.S.

The government had borr owed 63 million in Swiss francs and another 75 million from the Heritage Fund; and given that there is an inc reased deficit projected, the figures still don't seem to work out, Mr. Speaker. There seems to be an extra amount of money that's been bor rowed. Norm ally when the announcement is made, it is indicated what the purpose of the borrow­ ing is, whether it's for telephone, for hydro, or for the general activities of the government. It raises the question in my mind, Mr.

Spea ker, that 210 they have taken the opportunity to go to Washington to borrow money before the tabling of the Estimates and before bringing down their Budget in order that they would have this amount of money borrowed in advance to offset what can only be expected to be a record deficit in 19 82-83. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. MAUREEN HEMPHILL (Logan): Mr. Speaker, this time I brought copies for all the members of the House. You can even teach Ministers of Education. Mr. Speaker, I wish to announce a significant increase in university funding.

When the Estimates of the Department of Education are tabled, I will be requesting that the Legislature approve $13 3, 235,800 for operating grants to Manitoba's universities, St. Boniface College and support prog rams. This is a 15 . 7 percent inc rease over the 11 5, 12 7, 200 granted last year and should be sufficient support to allow the universities to forgo tuition fee increases in 19 82. This level of grant support will help Manitoba's uni­ versities to maintain quality programs, to respond to increased enrolment demands and continue to extend access to a broad cross

section of Manitobans. It will also permit the universities to initiate some new prog rams. I will also be requesting the approval of the Legisla­ ture for $5 million to be allocated by the Universities Grants Commission for miscellaneous capital expen­ ditures by the universities. This level of support is required by the universities to maintain and restore instructional facilities and physical plans, so that qual­ ity programs can be maintained, and will also provide for the purcha se of new teaching equipment.

I wish to note at this time that the unive rsities play an important role in Manitoba's economy by attracting $22 .5 million each year to the province for research projects, by providing highly-skilled graduates to private and pub­ lic sector employees, by keeping Manitoba a vital and attractive province in which to live, and by developing Manitoba's greatest resource, its people. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We, on this side of course, welcome any announcement of increased funding for higher edu­ cation.

We are well aware , as are most Manitobans I'm sure, of the potential crisis which faces post-secondary education in this country due to the threat in cutbacks of federal funding. I therefore wonder if the Minister of Education is aware at the present time of the Federal Government's commitments under the established programs financing plans for our province this year, or whether this announcement is subject to change when that information is known.

Universities, of course, are an integral' part of Manitoba's community, and it's important that they be adequately funded within the capacity of the Provincial Treasury to sup­ port their needs. Mr. Speaker, the Minister refers of course to the fact that they provide a resource for

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 Manitoba and its peop le. and it's hoped that the government wi ll carry on with the negotiations on the mega projects. so that there wil l also be some sources of emplo yment for these people when they graduate. Thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister of Consu­ mer and Corporate Affairs. HON. EUGENE KOSTYRA (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker. I have the pleasure of tabling the Annual Report for the Franco-Manitobaine Cultural Centre. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister of Finance. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you. Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to table the Report of the Provinicial Auditor for the year ending March 31 st. 19 81. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consu­ mer and Corporate Affairs. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker. I'd like to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion .. Introduction of Bi lls INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions. may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we should have three school groups. There are 10 students of Grade 9 standing from the River Heights Junior High School under the direction of Mr.

Ross Yardn ell. This school is in the consti­ tuency of the Honourable Member for River Heights. We also have 65 students of Grade 5 standing from the Frontenac School under the direction of Mr. Ed Reimer. This school is in the constituency of the Hon­ ourable Member for Radisson. There are 21 students of Grade 5 standing from the St. Alphonsus School under the direction of Miss Dziedzic. This school is in the constituency of the Honourab le Member for Elm wood. On behalf of all the Members of the Legislature. I bid you welcome. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

STERLING LYON (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker. in the absence of the First Minister, I would direct the question to the Acting Premier whom I presume is the Minister of Mines and Energy-(l nterjection)- Health. or the Minister of Economic Development. or have they sorted it out yet? The question in any event. Mr.

Speaker, is this: In view of the report which is regret­ table indeed for our major utility, Manitoba Hydro. and indeed for the people of Manitoba. of the failure to negotiate a contract for the sale of surplus power to the Province of Ontario, can the Minister in question advise what effect this failure of negotiation wi ll have 211 with respect to the undertaking of the government to start with construction of the Limestone Generating Plant immedi ately? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. WILSON PARASIUK (Transcona): Yes, Mr. Speaker.

The failure, as the Leader of the Opposition puts it, is part of a normal ongoing process of Mani­ toba Hydro of trying to negotiate power sales with people to the south of us. to the west of us and to the east of us. The discussions were initiated by Ontario Hydro some weeks ago; it was hoped at that time that we would be able to conclude a sale. Upon review by Ontario Hydro of their load growth projections, they have come to the conclusion that they wi ll not be requiring that power because of the fact that load growth projections are much lower than they had anticipated.

We are looking at alternative power sales. We have, in fact revived some possibilities that had been held dormant for the last two years with respect to potential firm sales in the United States. These are being active ly pursued now by Manitoba Hydro. We are doing a complete review of load growth projections by Manitoba Hydro, Mr. Speaker, in order to determine more accurately the load growth requirements for Manitoba.

We are doing this, while at the same time we have instructed Manitoba Hydro to begin what we call the orderly development of Limestone, by doing the homework required to determine whether in fact some of the contracts that might be let could be let to Manitoban firms to try and prevent as much leakage from our economy as possible. We have also asked Manitoba Hydro, Mr.

Speaker, to undertake proper analysis with sufficient lead time to ensure when Limestone construction takes place, there will be suf­ ficient participation of Northern Manitobans in the construction program. to ensure that development benefits all Manitobans to the greatest possible extent. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker. accepting as we do on this side of the House that failure of negotiation wi ll become an increasing hal lmark of the government, would the Honourable Minister attempt to answer the question which was, what steps is his government taking with respect to the immediate construction of Limestone which was their electoral promise - the previous government, having already started in place the orderly construction of Limestone based upon the then expected compl etion of the Western Power Grid Negotiation? MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I might remind the Leader of the Opposition, that despite spending hundreds of thousands of do llars of taxpayers' money to trumpet their election promises. they had not by the date of the election. concluded any agreement of any shape with respect to economic development in Manitoba. It is our intention to pursue all negotiations in good faith, to try and conclude them. Mr. Speaker. without trying to jeopardize them or undermine them in any way, shape or form. which to me now seems to be the vested interest of the Opposition Party in Manitoba.

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 When it comes to the Western Inter-Tie, Mr. Speaker, we are proceeding with discussions in a very sensible, rational way with the other two provinces; talks are being pursued in a very effective manner, Mr. Speaker. I hope they can be pursued in an effective manner without being undermined by any parties, Mr. Speaker, either gove rnment pa rties or opposition parties in this respect. When I come to the commitment we made with respect to Hydro, Mr.

Speaker, we stated quite clearly that the New Democratic party government would proceed with the immediate, orderly development of Limestone which meant that required sufficient lead time to do homework on load growth, to do homework to ensure that the bidding could be made with greatest possib le impact to Manitoba, to the Manitoba econ­ omy. Fina lly, we made this commitment very clear, Mr. Speaker, that we would ensure that northern people had a full chance to pa rticipate in the development of Limestone.

We believe that to be the orderly way in which to proceed; we believe it to be the prudent way in which to proceed, Mr. Speaker, and we believe it is the way which will maximize this development for all Manitobans not only now, but in the future. MR. l YON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister has just enunciated the policy of the former government with respect to orderly construction of Limestone, and in view of the fact that he has also said that it was just recently the intention of the govern­ ment to engage upon all of these studies and so on, pursuant to orderly development of Limestone, would he be good enough to advise the House, Mr. Speaker, why his Leader and others who were speaking on behalf of the New Democratic Party in Opposition were cal ling for the construction of Limestone two years ago? MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, the party at that time, I believe, was in fact saying that there were a whole set of alternatives to the south and to the west of us that possib ly hadn't been pursued with the sufficient dili­ gence; that there were in fact the opportunities which could have led to the immediate resumption, provid­ ing for full Native pa rticipation, providing for full northern participation in Limestone. Mr. Speaker, it seems very obvious that the Opposi­ tion party wants to spend al l of its time dwelling on the past and I can assure the people of Manitoba, Mr.

Speaker, that it is the intention of the New Democratic party government to look forward with respect to Hydro development because that's where the devel­ opment wi ll lie in the future, not in the past. Mr. Speaker, it is our purpose to ensure that development wi ll take place in a way that maximizes the develop­ ment to all Manitobans, especia lly northerners. MR. l YON: Mr.

Speaker, while everyone on this side of the House and I dare say the majority of the people of Manitoba are beginning to understand why the members of the government would like to forget ever­ ything that they promised in the last four years because so much of it was irresponsible. The question to the Minister then is with respect to another project that would help to ensure the proper and orderly development of Limestone.

Will the Minister tell us 212 whether or not we are going to be faced with another news report of another negotiated failure with respect to Al can or how are those negotiations proceeding, or has he blown them too? MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated in the House before, we are pursuing the Alcan negotia­ tions; the review is under way, is proceeding very well, Mr. Speake r. It is the intention of the New Democratic Party Government, Mr. Speaker, to try and negotiate that particu lar development in good faith.

We have no intention of trying to undermine it in any way, shape or form and I would ask some co-operation from the party on the other side of the House to try and work together in a constructive manner, Mr. Speaker, to see whether, in fact, it's not possible to negotiate a very good agreement so that all Manitobans will benefit from this development in the future. MR. l YON: Mr.

Speaker, continuing with the matters which would help my honourable friend extricate himse lf from his problem - it's his problem, not the problem of the people of Manitoba - may I ask the Minister in question if he could confirm the statement that is attributed to him in the Winnipeg Free Press to the effect that he expects the negotiations with regard to the Western Inter-Tie or Western Power Grid to be completed successfully very shortly or words to that effect? MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, in terms of our discus­ sions to date, in terms of the intent on the part of the Manitoba Government, we hope and we since rely believe that it wi ll be possib le to tighten up certain aspects of that interim agreement which would al low the next step to take pla ce, mainly the detailed work with respect to the long term ag reement, which in fact was envisaged to have been completed within two years of the signing of the interim agreement.

We believe that we can make prog ress with respect to tightening up the interim agreement, and we feel that if there is a spirit of good wi ll on all sides to negotiate a fair agreement, one that fairly shares uncertainty and benefits between all three provinces, Mr. Speaker, that we should be able to conclude an inter-tie which we believe would be of benefit not only to Manitoba, to Saskatchewan and to Alber ta, but frankly which would be of benefit to all Canadians. MR. l YON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, encouraged as we are by these protestations of support now for the Western Inter-Tie and for Alcan negotiations, wi ll the the Min­ ister confirm that it is necessary in order to proceed with Limestone Construction to have the Western Inter-Tie agreement completed, to have the Alcan ag reement or something of that equivalent size com­ pleted, and that the promises that he and his leader were making to the people of Manitoba two years ago and as recently as during the election were a fraud? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. CLAYTON MANNESS (Morris): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address my question to the Hon­ ourable Minister of Agriculture.

Whereas upwards of 300 Manitoba grain farmers find themselves as inno-

cent, unsecured creditors as a result of the recent bankruptcy involving Econ Consulting Limited, could the Minister of Agriculture indicate to the House what his department has done to apprise itself of the situation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Agriculture. HON. BILL URUSKI (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to understand whether the Member for Morris is now recommending that the open-market system has not done its homework and he's recommending that oil seeds and cash crops be placed under the auspices of the Canadian Wheat Board? MR.

MANNESS: Notwithstanding the fact that most of this grain, or much of this grain, was board-type grain - cereals - I still would like to know what his department is planning to do as far as taking time to arrange a meeting with represenatives of the farmers concerned to support them in their attempts to satisfy their claims? MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the matter that the member mentions is, of course, under the domain of the Federal Government, but we certainly would be prepared to lend a hand, and maybe the member has some suggestions that he might have insofar as whether or not there should be more stringent regula­ tions in term of the bonding aspects of the private grain trade and if he's recommending that, we cer­ tainly would avail ourselves to that kind of a suggestion. MR.

MANNESS: Is it the government's desire, or is it their thrust to become involved in this whole discus­ sion, and are they themselves going to become involved in understanding the Grain Commission's laws somewhat better and are they going to make representation to that body? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, until we're approached to involve ourselves, and at this point my office has not been involved or asked to become involved in this.

Certainly I'm prepared to see what the province can do and if it means moving in the area of legislation, we would certainly consider that, but I believe that the farmers themselves who wanted to play the open market, of course, were involved in this whole transac­ tion but ce rtainly, Mr. Spea ker, we are -( Interjection)- MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. Order please, order please. Would honourable members give the Minister the courtesy of a hearing? He is trying to answer the question. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It appears that the members opposite aren't willing or happy with the answers that I'm giving them, Mr. Speaker. We under­ stand that farmers who pa rticipated with this com­ pany in terms of the market, the hedging and the speculation that goes on in the market, and were defrauded. There was an actual, as I understand it, a fraud, Mr. Spea ker, that took place. Farmers are out, as I understand, some $4 million. We are very con- 9 March, 1982 213 cerned about that Mr.

Speaker, the fact of the matter, the Canadian Grain Commission is under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government and members opposite can say whatever they please. If there is some move that the province should become involved in tightening up the regulations from a provincial point of view, I'm cer­ tainly open to those kinds of suggestions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Speake r, in view of the fact that the Minister of Agriculture did not answer the question of the Member for Morris, is he prepared to become apprised or informed of the situa­ tion which has taken place where 300 farmers are affected in the Province of Manitoba? We still haven't received an answer. So, Mr. Spea ker, I will direct a question to the Minis­ ter of Consumer Affairs in the Province of Manitoba.

In view of the fact that one of Manitoba's major pack­ ing house industries has not been able to pass an inspection twice in one month for contaminated food with both grease and dirt on the meat products, has he or she been in contact with the Federal Government, letting them know of the fact that it is not acceptable to the people of Manitoba? Has there been contact made to the Federal Government, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consu­ mer and Corporate Affairs. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, responsibility for mat­ ters of environment come under the Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Spea ker, I didn't hear the answer from the Minister of Consumer Affairs. Could he repeat that, please? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, I indicated the question was one of a matter dealing with environment, and I suggested that question be best answered by the Min­ ister responsible for Northern Affairs. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, seeing that there is no one answering for the consumers of the Province of Manitoba or there is a reluctance on behalf of the government to protect the consumers of Manitoba, can anyone on the government's side of the House justify to the people of Manitoba why it is acceptable for the people of Manitoba to consume meat that is not fit for the people of the United States to eat? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable House Leader on a point of order. HON.

ROLAND PENNER, Attorney-General (Fort Rouge): It is impermissible, as I understand it - I am making this submission to you - to ask a general question like that My point of order is this, a question must be directed to a specific Minister on a specific issue within the confidence of that Minister and can­ not be asked of a whole Bench. -( Interjection)- I'd ask for a ruling on that point of order.

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 MR. SPEAKER: Does the Member for Arthur wish to speak to the same point of order? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, I do Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that the Minister of Consumer Affairs tried to pass the buck or pass the bad meat over to the Member for Churchi ll, or the Member for the Environment, I would like, Mr. Speaker, then to direct my question to the First Minister, because I do have a specific question for the First Minister, and will not speak on the point of order. I would like to proceed with the question to the First Minister. MR.

SPEAKER: I am not sure whether the honourable member was speaking to the point of order, but to reply to the Honourab le House Leader, it has been practice in the past, that members were al lowed to address a question to the Treasury Bench, not to backbenchers, of course, who are not entitled to reply to questions but to the Treasury Bench itse lf. The Member for Arthur may ask his question. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, to the Premier, and hope he can find a Minister of Consumer Affairs in that group of individua ls he has to work with, I would ask him, is he not concerned that the people of Manitoba who are now having to eat the meat that is unfit to go to the United States, that he cannot answer why his government has not made contact with the Federal Government, putting his government's concerns for­ ward to the people who are responsible for good qual­ ity and high standards for the people of Manitoba?

Does he not take the responsi bility, being the Premier of the Province of Manitoba, and putting his concerns forward to the people in Ottawa, or is he not prepared to let the Government in Ottawa know that he is con­ cerned about this kind of carrying on or in fact, is a member of his government in the pocket of the large company that is passing out that meat, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. JAY COWAN (Churchill): Mr.

Speaker, I have waited quite some time for the member to understand, as it has in the past, the responsi bility for meat inspec­ tion in this province comes under the Clean Environ­ ment Division. As part of my responsibility in respect to that, I feel compe lled to inform the Minister at this time that he can stop flailing around trying to find someone to answer the question. If he understood the problem better, he could prob ably address the ques­ tion to the right Minister.

He, not having been able to do that, I feel now compe lled to stand up and to help him out of the situation in which he has placed him­ self. I assure the honourable member that the Clean Environment Division has not stood idly by, while in fact this situation has been occurring. We have, in fact, checked our own department to make certain that we are undertaking investigations in the proper way and to ensure that those investigations which are being undertaken by the provincial body responsib le for those provincial facil ities are being done so in the proper way.

I can assure him categori cally and with­ out fear of contradiction that is the case, that the 214 provincial inspectors are living up to their responsibil­ ity to the people of this province and this government, in fact, is assured that meat that is going out under provincial jurisdiction is being done so in the proper way. Now, in respect to his particular question, as he shou ld be aware, the Canada Packers, because it is an export facility, does in fact, have a system whereby it is inspected by the Federal Government and the Uni­ ted States authorities in this respect.

The United States authorities have in fact delisted that. They came back in again to check and see what corrections had been undertaken as a result of their initial investi­ gation. They delisted it a second time, and they are now in the process of attempting to deal with the second set of problems which was a different set of problems than the first set of problems. We are very concerned about this. We have been in contact within the department with those staff people who are aware of the situation.

They assure me that the province has pl ayed the fullest role that it can play in regard to protecting the interests of the consumers in this prov­ ince in this respect. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that it is now very obvious that the member has read the Free Press report yesterday and has fully apprised himself of the details of what is happening at the Canada Packers' Plant, could the Minister assure this House and the people of Manitoba that the meat products that were rejected by the United States are not going to enter the domestic meat trade?

Those meats su pp­ lies that were contaminated and unfit for the people of the United States, wil l they not enter the Manitoba meat trade, Mr. Speaker? MR. COWAN: I have to inform the honourable member who must have just read the recent press report and not read the press report of a week or two ago respect­ ing this matter that this has been an outstanding con­ cern of the department since that first report came out. As a matter of fact, it has been an outstanding concern of the department when his government was in place and similar circumstances happened as well.

He shou ld be aware and I hope that he would be aware that the food inspection service by the Province of Manitoba is undertaken to ensure that the integrity of those meats, which are being produced for con­ sumption in this province are of the best quality pos­ sible and do not violate any health standards. If he is not aware of that, let him be aware of that now by the answer to his question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. Order please, order plea se. Order please. The Honourab le Member for Tuxedo may ask his question. MR. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Me thinks the Minister doth protest too loudly, but in view of the recent report of his Cabinet's agreement with the Union of Manitoba Municipalities Executive to estab­ lish a system to pick up used chemical containers in the province, and in view of the fact that this year's Estimates contain funds for the purchase of a portable crusher to be moved throughout the province to assist

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 in the disposal of pesticide containers. can the Minis­ ter inform the House as to whether or not these funds have been or are expected to be used for this purpose in this fiscal year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker. in response to the Minis­ ter's introduction to his question. It's not I that doth protest too loudly, it is his own colleague that protests too loudly. If I'm doing anything too loudly, it is giving the people of the province the assurances which they deserve.

In respect to the specific question which the Minis­ ter directed to me in regard to pesticide containers and the problems which they create in respect to municipal waste disposal sites, I would indicate to him as he is well aware this has been ongoing problem for quite some time and upon assuming government, there was a proposal put forward which he had not acted upon in his tenure as Minister responsible for this problem, he had not acted upon.

There was a proposal which I asked the department to review in order to come forward with the most efficient system possible to deal with this very serious and this growing concern and we have done that and I will be prepared to provide great detail to the member during the Estimates in respect to what we have done.

But to acquaint him with the situation as it stands now, I can tell him that we have set up a pilot project which wi ll have two crushers - not one crusher, two crushers - at much less cost to the people of this province than his particu lar proposal called for, which wi ll be going around this summer and wil l be doing so in close co-operation with the Union of Manitoba Municipalities liaison person, which they have indi­ cated to me yesterday they wi ll be appointing for this very purpose, so that we don't act on our own but in fact have put in place a system which will ensure the co-operation which is necessary to make certain that this project is undertaken in the most cost efficient and, at the same time, the most effective way possible.

Having gotten those assurances, as well as some support for the pilot project from those people who are most involved in this at the meeting with Cabinet yesterday, I have since that time asked my department to be prepared for an appointment from them in respect to a liaison person.

We will liaison with them to make certain we are going into those areas where there is most need and we are going to attempt through this pilot project to develop a more syste­ matic approach to the problem of the disposal of pes­ ticide containers in this province than has ever been developed before and, in specific, than was developed under his tenure as Environmental Minister. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speake r, I'm delighted to have the strong assurances of the Minister. I' ll be more pleased when we get some action.

In view of the fact that there were funds provided in this fiscal year for that purpose, in view of the fact that a proposal had been worked out with the Union of Manitoba Municipalities to provide this portable crusher to assist in the collection and disposal of these waste chemical containe rs, can the Minister tell 215 us whether or not those funds have been utilized or whether they've been encumbered for other purposes of higher priority within this government's plans? MR.

COWAN: Now, I really do believe that is a matter that can be more directly taken up during the Esti­ mates procedure and I am prepared to do that.

If the membe r, before that time, wants detailed spe­ cifics as to where the money has been spent in regard to different projects within the department that he's not aware of, and I find that strange seeing it was spent under his responsibility, but if he is not aware of that, then he can perhaps ask me specific questions and I wi ll try to address those specific questions with specific answers rather than unduly take up the time of this House in going through the numerous pro jects which, in fact, have been undertaken by the Environ­ mental Management Division not only when he was Minister but since the time I have become Minister.

But in short answer to his question, Mr. Spea ker, I have to inform him if he has forgotten this matter, that when I assumed the responsibility which he had had for much longer than I have had presently, there in fact was an outstanding request for this project. In other words, he as Minister had not seen fit to give it ministerial approval.

He had not seen fit to give it ministe rial approval and when it's laid on my desk, assuming the responsibi lity which I feel has been presented to me as a member of the Treasury Branch, I did consider that proposal in light of other proposals and have come forward with a pilot process which does, in fact, have the approval as far as I'm concerned of the Union of Manitoba Municipalities. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I'm sure it would be appreciated by all of the members if brief answers were given to brief questions. The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. HARRY GRAHAM (Virden): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask a very short snapper then of the Honourable Minister of Government Services. I would like to ask the Minister of Government Ser­ vices if his department has entered into any agree­ ments to purchase or lease property for the headquar­ ters for ManOil in the town of Virden, which is the oil capital of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Government Services. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Lac Du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I don't believe that my department has been involved in such transactions.

I might want to suggest to the honou rable member that if there was a need for head­ quarters for ManOil that the corporation itself would look after that area of responsibility. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. M. (DOUG) GOURLAY (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and ask him if he can confirm that the province is now prepared to pay taxes to provincia lly-owned Crown lands located in the var-

ious municipalities throughout Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister of Munici­ pal Affairs. HON. A. R. (PETE) ADAM (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, in response to the member's question, we met with the Union of Manitoba Municipalities yesterday. We have dealt with a number of resolutions that they had passed at the last convention and we are reviewing all those suggestions that they have made to us and we shall deal with them at the proper time. MR.

GOURLAY: I would like to ask the Minister a further question; if he can advise the House as to when he expects to receive the final recommendations of the Assessment Review Committee's report? MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In response to that question, as the member well knows the agree­ ment that was made with the Assessment Review Committee was that the report would be presented to the Minister of Municipal Affairs by the end of March and I am hopeful that wil l be so.

However, I'm sure the member knows as well that part of the agreement makes allo wance for an exten­ sion of time if in event that the committee has not completed it's work. I'm hopeful at this time that it wi ll be presented by the end of March. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone. I have in my hand here a tele­ phone directory for eastern Manitoba dated 1982, and it says effective date March, 1 982, it covers the eastern region.

I'm wondering if the Minister can indicate how many of these copies have been released to the east­ ern region, approxima tely. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com­ munity Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I' ll take that question as notice. MR. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister, with deep regret and deep concern I have to pose the next question, knowing full well that the administra­ tion over there, the government of the day, expected to win the seat of Emerson in the last election, and, you know, that they unfortunately did not win it.

If I could refer the Minister to page seven of that direc­ tory, which is his directory, it has listed all the MLA's for the eastern region, except one. It has included the MLA for the Morris Constituency, which is west of the river, but it has excluded the Member for Emerson. My question is, Mr. Speaker, whether the Minister deliberately did this to try and ensure the winning of that seat for the next election. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I' ll certainly want to check into this matter.

I'd also like to check into when exactly it was prepared for printing, because I suspect it was printed under the former Minister of Telephones. 9 March, 1982 216 MR. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, I want to give a little preface to this, because in the MLA 's that are listed here, it lists, and I want to read them if I can, Mr. Speaker, in all fairness. It lists Sam Uskiw, Lac du Bonnet; it lists Bob Banman, La Verendrye; it lists Cla yton Manness, Morris; it lists Eli jah Harper, Rupertsland; Andrew Anstett for Spring field. So if that is the thing he's going to hide behind, it's not going to work. Mr.

Speaker, I have a subsequent question to that, after the clarification. It's a very good directory. It covers many things. It has all kinds of community representatives, from Municipal Offices, etc. It also has a calendar of community events. My question would be, and a preface to this, you know there's many things listed, including fishing derbies. I've had people from my area go to certain of these things that are listed here, and they find out that they have not been in effect for ten years already.

I'm just wondering if the Minister has taken any effort or his staff to find out these upcoming community events. You know, when were they checked out as to when they were being held? Because some of them have not been in effect for ten years. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, as I said I would check into that. Obvious ly the honourable member has been doing some research on his own. We' ll cer­ tain ly check into the matter. Maybe the honourable member would like to help us in listing coming events in Emerson and east of the Red River. MR. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister.

Could the Minister possib ly enlighten me or suggest how I could inform the people in sou­ theast Manitoba - Excuse me, could I have my book back? When we look at the whole reach geographi­ cally, almost half of that is the Emerson constituency. How does he suggest I inform the people that they do have a representative, and that he should be listed in here. MR. DESJARDINS: They don't know you exist and you are in, don't press your luck. Once they find out who it is, you're in trouble. Don't press your luck. MR. EVANS: Apparent ly, Mr.

Speaker, there is a great problem presented of the people of his riding because the honourable member's name isn't listed, where the others are. So as I said, we'll check into it, we'll find out what happened. It seems to me that the honourable member is quite successful in advising people in that part of the province as to who is representing them. He seemed to be rather successful in the last election. So I trust it would n't be a major problem for him, but we'll look into it and see what happens. I wonder if the honourable member's going suggest we have a special printing to correct this situation. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Order please. The time for question period has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the pro-

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 posed motion of the Honourable Member for the Pas. The Honourable Member for Swan River has 31 minutes. MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Continuing on the speech, with respect to the main motion, I want to comment briefly on a few items that I haven't touched to any degree. The university tuition fees have been frozen, and I am disappointed in this fact because as has already been stated, some 90 percent of university costs are borne by the taxpayers of this province.

The 10 percent that is left to be covered by way of tuition fees is only a very small portion of the total cost, as the 10 percent would indicate. There are a number of bursaries, and scholarships, and student aid programs that are avail­ able to needy students, or students that would like to, and have the ability to attend university but don't have the finances. I think it's unfair to ask our already over­ burdened taxpayers to face the brunt of additional university costs when there are other avenues open to students that might be needing some financial assistance.

Another area that was mentioned in the Throne Speech was further financial assistance to regional development corporations. I don't have any problem with this except the regional development corpora­ tions have been in existence in Manitoba for some 15 years. I was involved in the start-up of the Parkland Regional Development Corporation, as a resident of Swan River, and I worked with the municipalities back in, I believe, 1968 to encourage the formation of Park­ land and the municipalities agreed. Some of them agreed in that area to participate in the Parkland Regional Development Corporation.

The corporation has been in existence, I think, since late 1968 or 1969, which is some 13 years now. The various municipali­ ties in the Swan River Constituency have joined at one time or another, and many of them have participated for at least, I think, nine years or thereabouts. There was a three-year initial setup period, and then when they renewed their membership it was for an addi­ tional three years. So for the most part the eight or nine municipalities that do belong, that do make up the Swan River Constituency, have participated in the Parkland Regional Development Corporation as I have mentioned.

Now, I think that nine or ten years is a reasonable length of time to examine the merits, or whatever, of the Regional Development Corporation concept, and obviously the municipalities in my area didn't feel that the RDC, in that particular area, was worth the money that they were paying into it. Now I don't condemn the Regional Development Corporation Manager, and we've had I think at least two, possibly three, in employment since the start-up of that development corporation; but it just hasn't worked out as far as the constituents in my area feel.

I think it's unfortunate that we should be directing more money into the Regional Development Corporations without first having full evaluation of the operations of the RDCs throughout the province. I know some of the RDCs have had better track records than others, but I think that after 15 years there must be some definite information to point out the good aspects of the RDCs and where they should be changed and maybe look- 217 ing at a different kind of a concept.

I don't say that we should disregard this kind of concept altogether, but the way they're structured at the present time it would appear to me that they're not fulfilling the job that they were originally intended to do. I think that it's unfortu­ nate that we are spending more money increasing the allotment to the present Regional Development Cor­ porations without really having a full evaluation to see where the money could perhaps be better spent. Another area I'd like to touch on briefly is the Crown land sales which was implemented by the previous administration.

I think it was a good program, it was well handled, and I believe, generally speaking, the citizens of rural Manitoba appreciated that kind of introduction some four years ago. As the Minister responsible for Crown lands indicated earlier this week, or late last week I believe it was, that this whole program was now under review, and it would appear that perhaps the further sale of Crown lands would be curtailed.

I have a number of constituents, and I'm sure there are many constituents in other areas as well, that are quite concerned about the applications that are for Crown lands at the present time and have not been acted upon. So I would hope that the members opposite, or the government members, would take a good look at this program because it does have a lot of merit, and it's a program that I believe the majority of Manitobans support. Well, to sum up the Throne Speech, I think that it has been already covered quite adequately that it does contain three definite areas.

There will be more government spending, there will be more government ownership and there will be more centralized government control. You know, increased govern­ ment spending wouldn't be so serious if we were actively proceeding and developing our tax base in the province with the likes of the Alcan project, on which the previous administration had spent a lot of effort and had brought it to the point where it could have moved ahead quite well in the immediate months; there is also the potash project which was quite well advanced, as well as the Western Power Grid.

These are three major projects that would have returned heavy tax revenues to the Province of Mani­ toba that could have been distributed to offset the increased costs of a lot of the programs, whether it be in education or health or whatever, and I would cer­ tainly appeal to the present government that they should really get down to serious negotiations. I know that they have made a lot of comments during the election campaign that puts the concept of those three projects in a very shaky position at this time.

However, I think it's not too late that that can't be rectified and certainly we desperately need those types of development to take place as soon as possible. Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to conclude by mak­ ing some brief remarks about the Swan River Consti­ tuency. It has expanded since redistribution, expanded to the southeast to take in that portion of the south portion of the Local Government District of Mountain which includes the UVD of Pine River and the North­ ern Affairs Community of Camperville.

This area was previously in the constituency of my colleague, the Member for Roblin-Russell, and certainly he served that area very well and I am pleased to have that added on to my constituency and certainly am already enjoy-

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 ing working with the people in that part of the consti­ tuency. At the north end, the Community of Pelican Rapids in the Indian Reserve of Shoal River was deleted from the Swan River Constituency and now makes up a part of The Pas area. I am grateful to the constituents of the Constituency of Swan River for having the confidence in me to re-elect me for a second term. I look forward to work­ ing with the other 56 MLAs during the next term of office. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Munici­ pal Affairs. HON. A. R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste. Rose): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to take

part in the Debate on the Speech from the Throne. I believe that this is probably the thirteenth or fourteenth time that I have had the honour to participate in this Debate. Je souhaite tout d'abord vous offrir mes meilleurs voeux et mes plus chaleureuses felicitations a I' occa­ sion de la nomination dont vous avez ete l'objet. Cette nomination a un poste important montre que vos qua­ lites de president sont reconnues par tous. J'espere que vous n'aurez pas a elever la voix trop sou vent et je suis sOrque votre patience et votre discernement vous permettront de remplir vos fonctions de fai;:on judicieuse. Mr.

Speaker, I know that your patience and your calm approach to the proceedings in the proceedings in the House will assist you greatly in maintaining order and you can be assured of my fullest co­ operation, as I am sure many in this House will also provide for you. I would extend my congratulations to the Deputy Speaker and I would also take this opportunity to congratulate the mover and the seconder of the Speech from the Throne. I am very, very impressed, Mr.

Speaker, with the calibre of the people that I have heard up to this point in time, and I want to congratulate all those new members that have been elected for the first time and as well all my col­ leagues from past years. It's good to see a change of new ideas coming into the House - new ideas that will be brought forth for what I consider to be a very, very capable group of people coming to this Assembly. I congratulate also the members of the opposite sex. They certainly have been a long time waiting to make a breakthrough and I think the breakthrough has been made. I'm sure in future years to come, Mr.

Speaker, that there will be many more females coming to represent the constituencies in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, we have had not only a few historic records set at this Session, two very prominent ones: the Member for Rupertsland, who is the first person of Native descent to be elected to this Assembly. That is a historic occasion and I am very pleased and proud, Mr. Speaker, that person chose to be part of a great party, the New Democratic Party of Manitoba. I am sure that Mr.

Harper will certainly represent his consti­ tuency very, very well and I believe that the people of Rupertsland have made a very, very good choice. Mr. Speaker, I was very much surprised yesterday, Mr. Speaker, to hearthe former Minister of Agriculture 218 compliment the Wheat Board. Mr. Speaker, it comes as a surprise, because it was not too long ago from the very seat that I am now holding in the Legislature that this same member stated he would wrestle the Wheat Board to the ground. That was his intention, Mr.

Speaker, and I was extremely surprised to see him yesterday stand in the House and criticize the present Minister of Agriculture for having said something about the Wheat Board which he felt was uncompli­ mentary. Mr. Speaker, I know that it was made from this seat. I'm not sure whether it was deceit that was taking place. Mr. Speaker, I would say deceit but I'm afraid that it may not be parliamentary so I won't say deceit; I'll say from this seat. Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Arthur referred to the New Democratic Party as a no-development party, and he said that that is how he is going to use the term to represent the New Democratic Party. Mr. Speaker, I took time this morning to look in the dictionary to get an

interpretation of what the Progressive Conserva­ tive Party meant. Mr. Speaker, I looked at the word, "conservative," and it says, "to be disposed to main­ taining existing views." And then I turned to the word, "progressive," and it says "to promote new ideas" and there seems to be a contradiction between the two words; progressive, conservative.

On the one hand, the progressive meant that you had to move forward and reform and find new ways of doing things and the conservative meant to adhere to the status quo, "dis­ posed to maintaining existing views." So I find a very serious contradiction in the combination of the words "P rogressive Conservative," so one should be - (Interjection)- My colleague says, I forget now, they've moved around so much the names that I don't remember. It used to be West Kildonan but I think it's now Concordia. He says that "indecision," it means.

But I suggest that they should do away with one or the other because the two don't go together. So, Mr. Speaker, I just make those statements for the record, that the members on the opposite side should not make light of the New Democratic Party, because it is a great party and it is a truly progressive party. It is a party that stands for new ideas and reform. You know, the former Minister also criticized the government and the Minister of Agriculture for not coming forward with a program to assist livestock producers. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we know everyone knows, I'm sure, in the Province of Manitoba that there is a serious problem insofar as the livestock industry is concerned; that is recognized by everyone; there's no argument there. They have been in trouble for some time, Mr. Speaker, but the Member for Arthur, the former Minister of Agriculture, is criticiz­ ing a government for not being able to address a problem after being only four months in office that they themselves could not address in four years, Mr. Speaker, and that is the difference between those people who sit on that side and we, who sit on this side.

We are addressing this problem. It is a serious problem. It is a problem that is recognized and it will be addressed I hope very, very shortly, so I say to the member opposite, be patient. We know there's a prob­ lem out there, you could not address it in the four years' term of office, we will do our best to address this problem very very shortly.

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 Mr. Speaker, the Member for Arthur suggested yes­ terday that, well, you know, you fellows are palsy­ walsy with Ottawa and it wasn't so bad when we were in office too. We met in Brandon and we got Agricul­ ture put on as a high priority: we commend him for that, Mr. Speaker. But, Mr. Speaker, what he did not say though is: how did they make out when it came to a formulative program for the drought assistance? What happened to the communications there, Mr. Speaker, with the province and the Federal Govern­ ment? What happened in this instance, Mr. Speaker?

We have never seen programs of assistance for drought to livestock producers and the confusion that took place during that year of drought, the assistance programs that were being overlapped with total and utter confusion, Mr. Speaker. Where were the com­ rnunications there between the province and the Fed­ eral Government? Mr. Speaker, there was an atmosphere, a poisonous atmosphere, that had been developed over the past four years of federal bashing, Ottawa bashing, that they were no longer on speaking terms, Mr. Speaker.

There was hardly any communication towards the end of the term of office of the former Conservative government. So, I would like to remind the Minister of these things, Mr. Speaker. Last fall, when les miserables or les desperates would call the election, some of my friends, not too many, came to me, and my only sister came to me and said, "Peter, why do you want to run again? Haven't you done your share?

Why don't you take a rest?" I said, "I will rest when I have made it possible for the people on the side where the sun rises, I will rest when they're on the side where the sun sets, on the west side of the House." Mr. Speaker, there were those who thought I would not be back. The Member for Pembina last spring made the statement that I would not be back. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, I am back, along with another 33 of my colleagues. We are back and we came back to make sure the people that were here on this side are now on the side where they should be.

In the argu­ ments that we have been putting forth in the last four years, Mr. Speaker, telling the people what was going on in the province, that people agreed with us and that is why they are on that side of the House and I want to tell them now, they are going to stay there for many many years, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I believe that one of the most important issues that we will deal with at this Session and one of the most profound things that are going to happen in the Province of Manitoba will be the change of the Crow rate.

I don't intend to go into great length at this time, I know there will be another occasion for this but, Mr. Speaker, we want to know where they stand on this issue. We want to know where they stand, because the farmers want to know where they stand. The farmers know where we stand but they want to know where they stand, Mr. Speaker. It was a couple of years ago the Minister of Agricul­ ture was saying, yes, we should have a change in the Crow rate, there's got to be a Crow gap; there's got to be Crow benefit; there's got to be a lot of things, Mr. Speaker.

Then they sent out some feelers, some sig­ nals out there, to get some feedback and they found out that a lot of Conservative people out there are a 219 little bit upset about their position. Finally, we know they had a fellow by the name of Reg Forbes going throughout the province - a very fine gentleman by the way - and telling people, "well, you know, the government really doesn't have a position on the Crow." They were sitting on the fence, Mr. Speaker, but before this Session is out we are going to find out where they stand. Mr. Speaker, ... MR.

SPEAKER: Is the Honourable Member for Arthur rising on a point of order? MR. ADAM: I've only got a few minutes MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Honour­ able Minister would permit a question. MR. ADAM: . . . and I don't want to be interrupted at this time. I believe, Mr. Speaker, we have been speak­ ing to the people of Manitoba for the last four years and they have heard, they have listened and they have understood what we have been saying. The result is that we are now back governing the province.

We intend to govern properly; we intend to govern responsibly; we are going to turn the economy around even though times are tough, times are hard. We have a lot of hard decisions to make. One of the failures that the previous administration made, Mr. Speaker, is that you can get away for about a year of blaming the previous administration. Remember the story about the three envelopes. Mr. Speaker, you can get away with it for about a year, but they tried to get away with it for four years and now it's five years.

The Leader of the Opposition is still rehash­ ing the Schreyer years; they're still rehashing that, Mr. Speaker. They've gone beyond the four years, we're going on the fifth year now. So the thing is sooner or later you have to stand on your own two feet and be responsible for your actions; it finally caught up to them. But I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that I am extremely proud that the people of the Ste. Rose con­ stituency have sent me back here for a fourth term. Mr. Speaker, I believe it is really a tribute to the Ste. Rose constituency and the Parkland region. I'm not going to isolate the Ste.

Rose constituency from the Park­ land because we are part of the Parkland. I think it's a tribute and a recognition to the importance that the constituency of Ste. Rose plays in the Parkland area - that the Member for Ste. Rose was chosen to be part of the Treasury Bench and the Cabinet. I think it's a tribute to Ste. Rose. I know that the Department of Municipal Affairs isn't a very controversial one; it is one of the most impor­ tant. It is a vl:lrY very important one and there is a lot of action there, Mr. Speaker. We are getting a lot of correspondence; there are a lot of services to provide.

They are the people who are at the front line, they are delivering the services, and I want to congratulate all those people who are on council, the Reeves and the local government, for the job that they are doing in servicing their communities. I already have had sev­ eral meetings with the union and the advisory commit­ tee which I understand was very dormant in the last four years. I've already met with the advisory commit­ tee, and I intend to use that vehicle as much as possi-

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 ble to communicate with the local government, Mr. Speaker. My door is open; I extend an invitation to all my colleagues in this House, on both sides of the House and particularly on the opposite side of the House. Please get in touch with me if you have problems dealing with Municipal Affairs that I can be of assis­ tance to you. I'd be glad to assist you in any way I possibly can, Mr. Speaker. As I said, on a number of occasions, I've already had several delegations from local government. I've also met with the Additional Zone Asso ciation, Mr.

Speaker, so I am having a very good rapport with the local government and hopefully I'll be able to relate to their concerns and assist them in providing better service to the people that they are elected to serve. I am also pleased to have been given the department being responsible for the Department of Co-operative Development, Mr. Speaker. I want to say that I am quite disappointed with the state of affairs in that department. I am not criticizing the people who are there, the staff who are there, I think that most of the staff were there for a number of years but, Mr.

Speaker, that department was disseminated in 1978. The former Minister responsible is sitting in the House at the present time and I hope that he makes note of that. Mr. Speaker, I found that the department was reduced so drastically of its resources, its staff people, that they were no longer able to deliver the responsi­ bilities of the Department of Co-operative Develop­ ment; the regulations end of it, the regulatory end of it, and the development end of it.

But there was a wind­ ing down, I believe, of approximately 21 SMYs, who were either transferred out or terminated and, as a result of this, there has been very little action in that department. I am hopeful. It is very important, Mr. Speaker, because there are many many co-operatives throughout the province; the housing co-op, nothing is happening. Very few co-operative groups are getting established -(I nter­ jection)- Mr. Speaker, there are over 300,000 members in the credit union system and that is a lot of people.

Almost a third of the population of Manitoba are involved with the credit union system, and it is a vitally important part of the economic viability of the Prov­ ince of Manitoba. We have credit unions in very very small towns; they are providing a service that if they did not have a credit union, there is no way that they would have a financial institution in their town. I don't know all the towns, but I can relate to my own consti­ tuency.

Say a town like Laurier, Manitoba, or Ama­ ranth, Winnipegosis, there are a lot of places where they don't have the facilities to have a bank; they have a credit union which is providing a very important function in that community. So it is a system that we must encourage, promote and protect, because it is extremely important to the economy of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, one of the first items that came to my attention when I was appointed to the Cabinet was that there was a proposal to refinance the Co-operative Implements. The C.

J. employs over 600 people in the Province of Manitoba, and as well it employs about 130 in Sask atchewan and a lesser amount in Alberta. There is a payroll in Manitoba of $1 0 million. When I arrived on the scene, Mr. Speaker, there was a prop­ osal that had been ongoing for quite some time to 220 refinance the Co-operative Implements.

The Co­ operative Implements found themselves in no differ­ ent position to most of the other farm implement manufacturers, having a difficult time because of the farm economy; because of high interest rates; because of high energy costs; because even to some extent of the Federal budget. It has had some impact on Co­ operative Implements. I found, Mr.

Speaker, that the proposal that had been put forward was for a $35 million package which had been rejected by the Federal Government, and they were going for a lesser package and the Co-op people, being - I wouldn't say desparate, but negotia­ tions had been carried on for so long that they were getting very, very concerned about having assistance in time to have an effect. But I found, Mr. Speaker, that the Federal Government was no longer speaking to the province, but rather they were speaking to the Co-op people and the package was for a much reduced financial input by the provinces. Mr.

Speaker, I want to congratulate all those people who were involved in these negotiations. I found the proposal unacceptable and my colleagues in Sas­ katchewan and Alberta found these proposals unac­ ceptable, and we took a leading role, the Province of Manitoba and myself as Minister responsible for Co­ operative Development, in getting the negotiations started again at the political level so that we could obtain the necessary finances so that Co-op Imple­ ments could continue to operate in a viable position for at least a number of years. Mr.

Speaker, it was my first experience, of course, with dealing with other levels of government and particularly the Federal Government. I want to congratulate, after a lot of hard bargaining and frank bargaining and bargaining in good faith by all parties concerned, the suggestion put forward by myself was finally accepted and endorsed by the Provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta and finally, by all parties concerned and we did finally come to a solution and we are now just crossing the t's and dotting the i's of this final agree­ ment which will be signed, I expect, before the end of March. So again, Mr.

Speaker, we were able to bring in for an expenditure on the part of the Province of Mani­ toba of 2,975 ,000. We were able to bring in $33 million of new money into the province. I feel that this was a very satisfactory agreement and the spin-offs will have a very stimulating effect in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, there are a number of areas that I could speak of in the Department of Municipal Affairs. Mr. Speaker, there was quite a change in the boundaries of the Ste. Rose constituency.

We are now 20 - 25 miles further south than we were under the previous electorial boundaries, and we now have the Town of Neepawa and the surrounding area and I want to wel­ come that area into the constituency. I want to say that I am very pleased to have been elected to represent the Ste. Rose Constituency and the southern part of the constituency as well. I have had an extremely good rapport with the local government in the south­ ern part of the constituency, the Town of Neepawa. We have established an office there which we hold every two weeks, bi-weekly.

We have a lot of interest in that; it's something new; it's never been done before in

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 the Neepawa area. We have ongoing communications with the local government district there in the Town of Neepawa and any citizen who has any concerns. It is a very busy office. Mr. Speaker. and it is certainly a worthwhi le service to the southern part of the constituency. We have also established an office in Ste. Rose which we hold every two weeks there. It's a long con­ stituency. It's kind of separated geogra phic ally and it's necessary for us to have an office at each end of the constituency.

We also hold office, or are now organizing to hold office hours in other parts of the constituency as well. I'm sure most of the older members know here that I am a constituency member. I have some concerns about being a Minister and losing touch with the grassroots people. Too often I have seen this happen, Mr. Speaker. where a Minister becomes so involv ed with the work of his Depa rtment that he loses touch with his people that he represents. I want to say, Mr. Speaker. that wi ll not happen to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. it is not going to happen to the Minister of Munici pal Affairs.

There wi ll be communications with this Minister; his door is open. he is out in the country whenever he possibly can to act as an MLA as well as a Minister. Mr. Speaker. I am very pleased. in the last few moments that I have I just want to say, Mr. Speaker. that I am proud and pleased with the Throne Speech and the com­ mitments made therein. The Main Street Manitoba Program is going to be a popular program. There was some criticism there on the oppo site side yesterday, I think.

The member who just spoke before me was critica l; on one side he said that we were spending too much money and with the next breath he said. you don't have enough money, it doesn't mean anything. Mr. Speaker. it is seed money. It is a beginning. Mr. Speaker. We will continue on with this. Mr. Speaker. if this program is acceptable to the people out there. and if they like the program, and I am sure that they wi ll, there is already a lot of interest in it. we wi ll continue with it in other years. I am also pleased with the way that we have already met some of those election commitments. Mr.

Speaker. you know. the Rent Program. the rent controls are in. There are a number of commitments that have already have been made and they are going to be kept. The beef program wi ll be kept - the Beef Stabilization Program. The Interest Rate Relief Program is already in. Mr. Speaker. Main Street Program is going to be in. ManOil is on its way. They are all on their way. they are all going to come to fruition. No doubt about that. Mr. Speaker. There is no doubt about it, Mr. Speaker, that we will live up to our commitments. Again, Mr. Speaker.

I look forward to the great debate that wi ll take place in the coming months. I don't know how long we are going to be here. but I am looking forward to what I expect to be a very lively debate on the Crow issue. Again. I want to say that I wi ll be looking very closely to see where those people stand. Where do they stand on the Crow issue. because I don't want to sell our farmers down the river, Mr. Speaker? I want to see where they stand on that issue. Manitoba and Saskatchewan are going to lose. 221 and lose heavily.

Manitoba and Saskatchewan are going to lose mi llions. billi ons of dolla rs if the Crow is changed. Mr. Speaker. I want to know where they stand because I don't want to sell our farmers down the river. I want to see if they do. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. DOWNEY: I wonder, Mr. Speaker. if the member would permit one question. Will the member permit a question? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The member's time has expired. If it is by leave of the House. the question may be asked and answered. Is there leave? (Agreed) The honourable member may ask his question. MR.

DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker. to the Honourable Min­ ister of Municipal Affairs and the Minister responsible for Co-operatives. he spoke about his role as the Min­ ister responsible for the Co-operative Movement in Manitoba; seeing that Manitoba Pool Elevators is a farmers co-op, does he support their position on the current Crow rate issue? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker. I want to say I met with Mr.

Pepin for at least an hour-and-a-half, and he made it quite clear that he did not have the support of the farmers. that he had support of some of the leaders of the farm groups. but he made it quite clear that he did not have grassroots suppo rt. I chal lenged Mr. Pepin to hold a referendum on such a major change that will affect farmers right across this country. I asked him to ask the farmers. " Are you for a change in the Crow. or are you not?" I say to you that at least 80 percent wil l be op posed to a change. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR.

G.W.J. (Gerry) MERCIER (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker. I want to add my congratulations. along with other members. to you and the Deputy Speaker and to all members of the Legisl ature who were elected at the last session for this session of the Legisl ature. Mr. Speaker. I may say. im pressed with the number of members who commented on the importance of families and family units. I think if I could offer any advice to new members it would be this. Mr. Speaker. and that is to remember that all of our families should be treated as a matter of high priority. It is very easy.

I think. as a member of the Legislation. or a member of the Treasury Branch. to become immersed in the work of government and forget one's family. I am impressed, as I say, with the number of members who did com­ ment on the impo rtance of the family unit. I can indi­ cate that after the election loss. Mr. Speaker. my fam­ ily, my wife in particular. tried to console me after the particular results of that election. and my wife said to me. "Look at it this way. you may no longer be the Attorney-General or the Minister of Municipal or Urban Affairs or Government House Leader or have a

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 large Minis ter's office. You may be low man on the totem pole at work, but around here you are second in command." That was not a new position for me, Mr. Speaker. I want to comment on the Throne Speech and I want to contrast those comments, Mr. Speaker, with those that are contained in an election document signed by the now First Minis ter, "Great Future, Manitoba and the NOP," Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech refers to an emergency program of lim ited one-time interest rate relief to Manit obans, Mr. Speaker.

Our party, prior to the election and during the election campa ign, enunciated a $60-million pro­ gram to help Mani tobans. We estima ted that it would cost at least $2 0 mi llio n to provide relief to homeowners. Mr. Speaker, the NOP have brought forward a program of some $2 3 millio n, not just for homeowners, but for homeowners, farmers and busi­ nessmen. Mr. Speaker, they said in this document signed by the now First Min ister, "No Manitobans will lose their homes or farms due to high interest rates." Mr. Speaker, I think the voters of Manitoba, I subm it now, Mr.

Speaker, were mis lead by the representa­ tions of the New Democr atic Party of Manitoba in the last election, Mr. Speaker. This will not be a program that can provide any signific ant relief to the numbers of homeowners, farmers and busi nessmen who have been affected by high interest rates. I recall, Mr. Speaker, when we were elected as a government and took office on October 24, 1977, we were in this Legislature in a matter of a few weeks after taking office implementing our campaign promises. Mr. Speaker, it has been almost five months now since this government took office.

The application forms, as I understand it, are not even ready for those people who are in need of interest relief program. Businesses, Mr. Speaker, have been in bankruptcy at a higher rate than ever during the last few months. There is, in fact, Mr. Speaker, noth ing happening in the economy in this province during these months, and there has been delayed action on the part of the new Provincial Government, Mr. Speaker. Mr Speaker, the government has included in their Throne Speech comments related to protection from unfair rent increases, Mr. Speaker. I welcome that comment, Mr.

Speaker, and I point out to members opposite that it was our government that had a form of a rent control program;. It was our leader, who during the election campaign, said if the existing legislation allows for unfair rent increases then we would, if elected, amend the existing legislation in order to prevent unfair increases. So we welcome that, Mr. Speaker. So, there really is noth ing new for the people of Manitoba in making this particular promise. Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech refers to a transit fare freeze. Mr.

Speaker, I'm not opposed to a transit fare increase, per se; after all we froze hydro rates in the province, not only in the City of Winnipeg. But, Mr. Speaker, when we did that, when we froze Hydro rates, we adversely affected the revenue of Winnip eg hydro to the City of Winnip eg Government and we compensated the City of Winni peg Government for the loss of revenue that the City Council incurred. Contrast that position with the po sitio n of this government.

They froze the transit rates but, forced the City Council to make a reduction of some $3.4 222 millio n in their Capital Budget in order to make up for the loss of revenue to the transit system. And, in fact, Mr. Speaker, one of the projects which the City Coun­ cil was forced to elimin ate from its Capi tal Budget as a result of the Provincial Government action, was a major transit program, a park-and-ride project, which would have been constructed, I believe, in St. James­ Assiniboia where Portage Avenue is one of the most heavily travelled thoroughfares in the City of Winnip eg. So, by their action, Mr.

Speaker, they have adver­ sely affected the improvement of transit service in the City of Winnip eg, Mr. Speaker, and the only way in my experience that you can increase ridership is to improve transit service to improve the service that is the only way that you attract a greater number of riders. So, Mr. Speaker, rather than doing something to improve the use of transit they are putting their thumbs down on the improvement of transit in the City of Winnipeg by the elim ination of a major improve­ ment in transit service. In fact, Mr. Speaker, as others have commented on, it is a universal program.

A uni­ versal program is one which I think governments can little afford in this day and age. It does help the poor but it also helps, for example, Mr. Speaker, the lawyer in Riv er Heights who takes the bus to work because it's conven ient. Is that the kind of program that government can afford nowadays? The First Minis ter ind icates it's energy savin g. I agree.

The use of transit is energy saving but the object ive should be to increase the ridership and by doing what they have done in the manner that they have done it, the City had in fact, had to delete a major transit improvement project, the park-and- ride pro­ ject, an innovative program that should be extended throughout the City of Winnip eg. Mr. Speaker, moving through the Throne Speech, they refer to a Department of Crown Investments which will begin to plan for prov incial investment by Crown Corpora tions. Mr.

Speaker, I think we're going to have to watch the establi shment of this department and this activity very carefully, very carefully, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there is a danger here, I think, that pol itical decisio ns on investments will be made by which a lesser rate of return will be achieved for the benefit of the ratepayers and taxpayers in Manitoba than could be achieved in the marketplace, Mr. Speaker, and we're going to have to be very careful of the manner in which this department operates. There's been a great deal of discussion on ManOil and Gas Corporation, Mr. Speaker.

I take it the First Min ister by now has made a search of the company's office to determ ine whether or not they can use the name, that it was apparently registered in someone else's name at the time he made his original announcement. But, Mr. Speaker, this is a waste of taxpayers' money. It did n't work under the previous admin istrat ion. Under our admini stration, oil explora­ tion has never been higher, government revenue has never been higher, Mr. Speaker, and I would urge the government to back off that particular election prom­ ise in the interest of Manitoba taxpayers, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the Throne Speech refers to a number of major construction projects which this government intends to proceed with. I just hope, Mr. Speaker, in this year as the government proceeds with these pro-

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 jects that they recognize that virtually every one of them are projects which were developed and planned for this year by the previous administration, virtually every program, the Adolescents' Psychiatric Hospital, the Health Science Center expansion, the Law Courts facility which I am glad to hear the Attorney-General is proceeding with on the site that we planned for and substantially in conformity with the plans that were developed in conjunction with a user group of which he is very familiar and there is virtually unanimous support I think, and encouragement for that particular project.

I just hope, Mr. Speaker, that the First Minister's propaganda secretariat in his office will recognize the fact that our government did plan these projects and I'm sure they will give all the credit that is due to the members of this side for the development of those projects, Mr. Speaker. -( Interjection)- The Law Courts Building did, yes, Mr. Speaker. It was also planned for quite a different location. Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech goes on to refer to the Winnipeg Core Area Initiative. Again, Mr.

Speaker, a program which our government developed, on which we spent at least one year and spending con­ siderable time in negotiations, discussions and in public hearings with the Mayor and a Minister from the Federal Government in planning and putting together the Core Area Initiative. It is there to be implemented, Mr. Speaker. It was referred to in the NOP election material as something that would be supported and I hope that they will implement that fully.

It provides for development in our downtown, development north of Portage, Logan Avenue Indus­ trial Park, training and extension of Red River Com­ munity College on that particular location, a housing program of pretty immense proportion, east yards development, a park at that site, a housing repair pro­ gram. We developed it. They now have the responsi­ bility to implement it, Mr. Speaker, and we will intend to hold them accountable for carrying through with that particular project. One program they do not mention, Mr.

Speaker, and I'm a little disappointed that they didn't is the Art Program, again a joint Federal-Provincial program which we developed with the Federal Government and I hope they will carry through with that particular program which I think is of significant recreation and tourist importance to the whole Red River Valley cor­ ridor, Mr. Speaker. They indicate they will be proceeding with a high­ way construction, Mr. Speaker.

I hope they will indi­ cate very early that they will be proceeding with the twinning of Highway No. 75, which I think is a very important project for tourism in Manitoba, a program which we were embarked upon. I hope they will see the advantages of proceeding with that particular program. I hope, Mr. Speaker, on more of a personal basis as some members will be aware, during the election campaign I was forced to use a three-wheel, electri­ cally operated vehicle.

The First Minister may recall or other members may recall last spring at hearings before Law Amendments Committee, a number of physically handicapped people appeared before that Committee with regard to the licensing of those types of vehicles and the Highways Minister at that time 223 undertook to examine the whole issue and determine whether or not they could be licensed. At the request of the handicapped, and I think it was by unanimous agreement of the Committee at that time, it was agreed that no persons would be prosecuted for the use of those vehicles until that review was completed, Mr.

Speaker, and I hope that the Minister of Highways and the government will be examining that issue. I can say to the members opposite that a number of handicapped people have contacted me since the election campaign and are very much interested in using that vehicle for their own transportation requirements, Mr. Speaker. It is so important to han­ dicapped people to have some mobility, some form of transportation and that is a very easy vehicle to oper­ ate particularly in the summer months and I hope the government will examine that particular issue. Mr.

Speaker, the government refers to the Main Street Manitoba Program as did the previous speaker, the Minister of Municipal Affairs, and I think it should be placed on the record that our government at the last Session of the Legislature amended the Municipal Act in order to allow for the development of such a program in co-operation and by agreement with the Councils and provided for the passing of local improvement by-laws to embark upon programs in downtown Manitoba. In any event, we'll look forward to seeing the Estimates this evening to see what provi­ sion is made for this particular program, Mr.

Speaker, whether or not it will exceed $1.5 million which won't go very far. It certainly wouldn't even do much of a job in the town of Selkirk, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Premier is saying, do I want to put more money in for that program. Mr. Speaker, I didn't make this promise, that's something the First Minis­ ter's going to have to learn with. He made all these promises. I didn't make them. He made them, Mr. Speaker. He raised the expectations of Manitobans. He misrepresented the economy. He raised their expectations and he's responsible for living up to these promises, Mr. Speaker.

We're just here to make sure that 47 percent of the Manitoba voters were not misled, were not deceived. I think they were and I think we're going to be able to show that they were, Mr. Speaker. We're going to hold them responsible and we're going to hold them accountable so the First Minister can't ask me or any other member on this side whether or not we want more money on it. We just want you to live up to your promises. Mr. Speaker, in the Throne Speech the government refers to innovative provincial policies which will respond to the needs of the City of Winnipeg. Well, we have to ask the question, Mr.

Speaker. Will this be a response to the needs of the City of Winnipeg as seen by their administrators, by their elected representa­ tives, by City Council, Mr. Speaker, or will this be the needs as seen by the new army of bureaucrats ens­ conced in a new floor of office space in the Manulife Building, in the Department of Urban Affairs, Mr. Speaker? I suspect that it will be the latter. Mr. Speaker, they talked for four years that we wer­ en't giving enough money to the City of Winnipeg. We gave 16 percent last year; they gave 16.5 percent but at the end of four years I say to the First Minister, Mr.

Speaker, I'll be prepared to compare the record of increases in municipal taxation over the next four

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 years and we'll see how this government makes out. Mr. Speaker. what relief are they going to provide this year. in spite of their grant? The average homeowner with a $7. 000 assessed home is facing an increase of $1 20.00. What relief are they going to pro­ vide for them? What relief are they going to provide for the 25 percent increase in water rates; and for another increase in ambulance fees. Mr. Speaker? Their innovative program is to do exactly what we did in this particular area. and even worse. to impose their wishes on particular projects on the City of Winnipeg Council. Mr.

Speaker. Mr. Speaker. the City of Winnipeg asked them - they talk about the need for construction projects - the City of Winnipeg Council asked them to partici­ pate in a program of water main renewals. an important project for the City of Winnipeg which has undergone record waterline breaks in this past year. We were asked a year ago to participate in a special $4 million Capital Works Program. We responded positively and participated in that program. Mr. Speaker. this government chose to not respond. not to participate. particularly in construction works which are very labour orientated.

That type of work is very labour orientated. important to the city and they declined to participate. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker. the Throne Speech refers to a Com­ munity Child Day Care Standards Act. We'll see how excellent it is. I think all members probably worked with day care centres in their various constituencies and I can tell them there is a lot of concern with a proposal for this type of legislation. Mr. Speaker. I say the government is going to have to show a lot of justification for their particular legislation in this area. There is a great deal of concern about the standards that may be asked for.

Again. Mr. Speaker. some members refer to the fact that all day care centres should be nonprofit. The present Minister of Energy and Mines used to refer to the fact that all personal care homes should be non­ profit. My concern if any would be this, would be a general one. that under this government I think even business may have to be nonprofit. Mr. Speaker. that would seem to satisfy the objectives of this particular government. Mr.

Speaker. the Throne Speech refers to the increase in the funding of education and the Honour­ able Minister of Education has made a number of announcements and statements with respect to this matter in the past few days and again today. I refer back to Question Period a couple of days ago though, Mr. Speaker. when I asked you first of all whether she was satisfied with the formula used for estimating the increase in the cost of education and she went on with a lengthy and very thorough explanation as how the consumer price index perhaps did not sufficiently recognize the cost of operating schools.

I then asked her whether there was any increase in her announce­ ment for education financing and any increase for independent schools. When she answered. "No. Mr. Speaker," I regret to say that a number of members opposite applauded that particular answer. Mr. Speaker. I'm glad however that she agreed that she would include. as I understood it from her answer. include this topic. this matter in her overall review of education fincancing, which I understand will be 224 going on this particular year. Mr.

Speaker, I would urge the Minister of Education to try to forget about the ideology that may exist in the minds of members around her and to recognize what I think is fair and equitable. What is fair and equitable is that these schools receive an increase and that they be put on a formula basis so that they receive the same increase based on the cost of living as the public school system. Mr. Speaker. the Throne Speech refers to legisla­ tion introduced to strengthen our Family Law Sta­ tutes.

I hope and I'm sure that the Honourable, the Attorney-General will give the former government some credit when he introduces these bills because as I see it, I think they are virtually all bills which we had developed and planned for this particular legislated program. There may be some surprises that I'm not aware of. Mr. Speaker. If there are I think they will receive the full support of this side if they have not been changed and in fact will be strengthening the family law legislation in Manitoba. Family law legislation. Mr.

Speaker. which is recog­ nized I think throughout Canada as one of the best total overall legislative packages in existence extremely well regarded done in full co-operation with all of the interested groups in that particular field. I hope the Attorney-General will. and I'm sure he will, will carry on that consultation with those women's groups in improving and strengthening our legislation. Mr. Speaker. the Throne Speech refers to the pres­ enting of the Estimates of Expenditures which I expect will be later this evening. One thing I want to say about that, Mr. Speaker, is this.

I think everything that we have seen in total from this government indi­ cates a complete inability to live within the fiscal ca­ pabi lity of this province. I think they are prepared to spend and to spend and to spend and to borrow money at high interest rates, and all of this, Mr. Speaker. is going to lead to an increase in taxes. Mr. Speaker, after our administration for some four years, and within two or three weeks from taking office, spent our time in reducing taxation in Manitoba, of all kinds. At a time, Mr.

Speaker. when a maj ority of Manitobans are having extreme difficulty in making ends meet this government are going to increase taxes and impose additional burdens on the taxpayers of Manito ba. at a time when they are having a great deal of difficulty in getting along. Mr. Speaker. it will almost be unconscionable to see the kind of taxation increases that this government is going to impose in a matter of a few months when they present their Budget. They are going to impose even greater hard­ ships on the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker. all of us on this side, I guess particu­ larly having lost the election. remember this booklet:- "Great People, Great Future. Manitoba and the NOP ," signed by the now First Minister. "We can turn around the harsh economic circumstances of the past four years; we can provide interest rate relief in an economic climate to ensure that small business stays in business; together. we can build a great future. That's a promise we can guarantee." Mr. Speaker. ten days later. ten days after taking office. the Premier had a press conference and told them that Manitobans are facing hard economic times.

It took ten days. he said. "we are facing, in the

immediate term, hard economic times but the Federal Government is responsible for dealing with this over­ all." Mr. Speaker, you know I don't mind losing an election, but to lose an election because of the misre­ presentation, the deceit, the fraud from the other side is hard to take; it's hard to take. -(l nterjection)- That's not good enough for him to say that now, Mr. Speaker. He made those promises; that government made those promises; all of their candida tes made those promises and they are going to have to be responsib le for impl ementing them, Mr. Speaker.

They raised the expectations of peop le, as I've said, Mr. Speaker. It was virtua lly nothing more than a con­ spiracy to seize power; that's all it was. But we're not going to let them off the hook, we're looking forward to seeing their Estimates tabled in this Legisl ature to-night; we're really looking forward to seeing their Budget. They're going to be held accountable and they're going to be held responsib le. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Education. HON. MAUREEN HEMPHILL (Logan): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to begin, as others have done, to congratulate our new Speaker on achieving his high office and the opportunity he has to meet the chal­ lenges ahead. I have always believed that politics was one of the most honourable of professions and I know that you will help us all, Sir, with distinction and fair­ ness in this Chamber. I want to congratulate the Member from Flin Flon for his appointment as Deputy Speaker. He has been given a great opportunity to learn and to grow and I know he wil l, and I'm sure we all wil l, rise to the occasion.

I was moved by the ideas and feelings in the speeches of the Members from The Pas and from Burrows. They put us on the high road and I hope the Speaker will help us to stay there. I am privi leged to serve two constituencies, Mr. Speaker, the people of Logan and the children of this province. I wou ld like to speak to you today about both of my constituencies. Logan is the heart of Winnipeg and the heart of what peop le from the outside describe as the inner city.

It takes in our city's oldest neighbourhood, Point Dou­ gla s, a once proud and prosperous main street, the historic and now ubiquitous CPR marshalli ng yards. It is a constituency which has housed wave upon wave of new immigrants, peop le who arrived here in search of freedom and opportunity and justice. On its streets in 1919 marched striking workers seeking their demo­ cratic rights and their economic dues. Logan is a con­ stituency with a significant past, Mr. Speaker; its future lies in the hands of ordinary men and women, the people in this Chamber and in other chambers.

Logan is a pla ce where people live who don't have a lot of power and influence, but who depend on others to give what they cannot demand and they are depend­ ing on us, as do the children of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, our richest resource and our greatest responsibility. As they go, so goes our society. Our children are entitled to learn and to grow to their fullest potentia l, to have a chance to be what they can be and we have mor e childr en at risk today than 9 March, 1982 225 ever before.

Our children are the victims of the fami ly breakdown and it is our job, through these unsettling and difficu lt times, to protect those who cannot pro­ tect themse lves from the high cost of this social upheava l. Chi ldren shou ld not be chopped into little pieces to match our government structure. We each take a little piece and the child falls through the cracks. Chi ldren need nourishment; they need food for the body, love for the heart and soul and knowl­ edge for the mind.

In a rich country like Canada, a country that prides itse lf on concern for children, a country that spends bi llions of dollars on health and education, we cannot let the opportunies that a chi ld has in life be determined or limited by their lifes circumstance. I want to tell you about our city, by telling you about its people. I want to tell you about Mary. I first met Mary when I was cal led to see a house that shou ld not have been inhabited by people.

Mary has six chil­ dren: two babies, a retarded 30-year old; and she also has wal l-to-wall cockroaches; a kitchen sink hanging from the wall; a huge hole in the living room that went down to the cellar and was big enough for a child to fall through, and open wiring in the ceilings of the living room and the basement. Her landlord received a $2 50 cheque every month from welfare - and it doesn't matter if it was Provincial Welfare, or City Welfare, we both do it, with no questions asked .

And Mary didn't complain, because she was Indian: because she didn't want to be put out on the street and she had been put out on the street before with her children, when she complained about housing condi­ tions. But most of all, she kept quiet because some of the chil dren she was raising were not her own. She was their grandmother. I tried to get Mary into subsid­ ized housing; she had been on the waiting list for seven years. They wanted to know about her house­ keeping habits, and we had to figure out how to hide two babies, when the inspection was made.

Mary knew better than I; she found a little house, fortunately still in my constituency, and no one can walk into her house and count her children. Her children are clean; she always knows where they are. The two in school have had perfect attendance for four years, and unlike most Native children, they wi ll not drop out of school before Grade 10. So Mary is doing her job, with no help and no recognition, but I salute her. In our wisdom, imposing our values on other peo­ ples lives, we would have taken some of those children away to a place where there were good housekeeping standards.

Mary is one of thousands of Natives, single women, elderly, immigrant, poor, who are condemned to inadequate housing because we don't enforce our health and safety standards; because we pay top money to slummed landlords for rotting accomoda­ tion; because they have nowhere else to go; but most of all, because we have not cared. We have followed a path of destruction and demolition. If it continues the heart of our city wi ll be a sterile pla ce where people work by day and leave at night, and only those who cannot leave wi ll stay; the weak, the poor, and the elderly.

We have built ghettos, like the Lord Selkirk Park and we blame the people then for the gettos that we created. For 10 years we allo wed a flow of resources to the suburbs and we drained our life's blood from the heart

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 of our city. We allowed the tremendous building boom in the suburbs, that led us and required us to put millio ns of dollars of publ ic money, to provide the best schools, the best roads, the best parks, pools, and rinks, and now we have to pay the price or we may have to - the death of the inner city. But we have other choic es and it is not too late. We have everything we need. We have empty land to build new houses compatible with the character of our older neighb or­ hoods. We can have enough housing stock to provide decent economical housing for people who need it.

And we have people who love the inner city and who want to stay there. We have streets where houses, and shops, and restaurants reflect the life and character and colour of a rich multi cultural society of people. And many of these people in Logan, and in the inner city, Mr. Speaker, are immigr ants. I want to tell you a story about a young man called Chris; he is Ph ilippi no and he is 26 years old. He was trained as a computer technolo gist in the Philipp ines. He cannot practice his profess ion because we do not recognize his training.

So he trained himself again, as a third-class welder, but we wouldn't recognize that either, so he moved to Calgary, where they did. And he supported his wife, and two children, and his mother­ in-law, and he helped his mother finish educat ing his four younger brothers and sisters, because they all know education is the key to the future for the chil d­ ren. His wife and mother work in the garment industry under deplorable working conditi ons, to give the next generation a chance for a better life.

Yesterday was International Women's Day, and the orig inal march was over working conditions in the garment industry that still exist today, and we must do some thing about that. They all live in a house in Logan that they boug ht for $1 8,000, and they made it into a duplex, half for he and his family, and half for his mother and his sisters and his broth ers. But we are conside ring, once again, Mr. Speaker, the destruction of homes and neighborhood and they are afraid, because they don't believe they can get anything bet­ ter. They can't afford to move, and more importantly, they want to stay where they are.

Chris is now taking special examinations at Red River, and if he passes he is going to be certified to teach weld ing at Tech-Voc. And he will set an example of hope for his people, for they want to believe that they too, can aspire to such high positio ns, and have a chance to do such impor­ tant work. Chris is not alone in his desire to be independant and to make a contribution, both to his family, his people and his community. In fact, Mr. Speaker, most people want to work. We train them to death for jobs that don't exist. We blame them for the unemployment rates when there are no jobs.

We call them lazy when they are on welfare, because they are caught in the trap of dependency, like single parent mothers. Jane is a single parent mother. She cooked for a living when her health was better. She used to be a top bookkeeper. She has two dependent children and she went on welfare for the first time in her life because of illness. She wanted to take an accounting course to upgrade her skills and get off welfare, but she found she was going to get less money than her welfare raise and she did n't have enough to pay her bills during the twelve-week course.

She protested and she was told 226 to stop worrying, to stay on welfare and to forget it. People getting welfare and people giving welfare are both captives of a system that degrades people and takes away their pride and any courage they had. People in welfare offices always look at the floor. They never smile. They shuffle their feet when they walk. They jump when they are called. Many are single­ parent mothers like Jane who are also the victims of family breakdown, left alone, no money, no job, no educat ion, no skills, no help.

If you babysit or make a few extra dollars, they cut back on your food allo­ wance. If you have a friend who brings you a present or brings in a few bags of groceries for the ch ildren, you are supposed to tell so they can deduct it from your food money. I don't know why any mother would ever tell the truth - some do I wouldn't. In many homes what is totally unacceptable to us is routine to them, no food in the house for several days before pay day. They have terrible choices to make, these mothers buy warm clothes for the kids in the winter or have enough food in the house for the mont h.

We have to help them break out of this cycle of dependency. They need training , they need jobs and they need help looking after their children. I want to talk for a few min utes about the strength and vitality of Logan and the heart of our city. I've been talking about the problems and the challenges that we're facing, but we have to recognize the beauty and the strength.

It is a place where people helped me through a year-long nomination battle and my pres­ ence on the streets was so normal that chil dren would call out, "How many membe rships did you sell today, Maureen?" and would skip beside me reporting on the voting pattern in their families "My mother's voting for you, my father's voting for you, my grandfather's voting for you"; parents calling me in for hot soup, cold lemonade or a li ttle shot to keep me going; much discussion about whether I was thinner, eating enough, working too hard or dressed warmly enough . I love them all.

The heart of our city is a fiddling and ji ggling con­ test in the North End Winter Festival; it's fettucini at Martini' s; pero hies and holub chi; that the Main Street Senior Center ladies make on Wednesdays; it's Nor­ quay House and Point Douglas, the home of the first Premier of Manito ba; it's Ph ilipin os' seniors disco­ theque dancing in trad itional costume; it's Portu­ guese socia ls where good food and good wine and good fun are shared by young and old because they bring their children with them to all of their activities - babies, young ones and teenagers - and they all play and enjoy themselves together.

Logan is people who have little, sharing what they have. Logan is people beginning to sha re their cultur­ al heritage with each other. It is Ted's Grocery Store in Point Douglas, the origin al first grocery store in his­ toric Point Douglas, where you can still get groceries now and pay later. It's Cooper's Grocery on William, where Alice takes orders for free delivery for seniors and reminds them of what food they need to be eating properly. It's a place where there is a year-long Folklo­ rama, a daily celebration of all our cultures with the beauty and colour of costumes and songs and dance from all cultures.

We judge a society, Mr. Speaker, by how it treats its chil dren; we judge a city by how it treats its neigh-

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 bourhoods. Logan is a tapestry, a collection of neigh­ bourhoods, and the people in them are extended fami­ lies to their own family, to their neighbourhoods and to their community outside. The strengthening and support for our families goes hand in hand with the building and strengthening of neighbourhoods, and the people must be involved in the building and part of the decisions that will be made about their lives. Healthy neighbourhoods breed healthy children. The U.N. definition of health is not the absence of illness, Mr. Speaker. but the ability to adapt to change.

The people, and particularly the children of the inner city, have to adapt to more change than do people and children elsewhere - the cultural shock, language and economic barriers that they face. The same can be said about our city centre. It faces drastic, tremendous change, and people and places that have to adapt to so much change need more resources and support to cope with that change - so do our high risk children and so does our high risk city. The heart of our city is in a delicate balance right now between two worlds, Mr.

Speaker - a world of decay, destruction and demolition where homes are destroyed and people driven away so only those who cannot go will stay, the very weak, the very poor, the very old. And the other foot is in a world of rebuilding, restoration and revitalization, giving recognition and value to the beauty and strength of our rich multicul­ tural communities so that all people, young and old, can continue to live in decent housing they can afford, in a neighbourhood they love. And its life can go either way, Mr. Speaker.

It faces both its greatest danger and its greatest challenge and opportunity, and if we leave it alone, it will die a slow death. Today's electorate may let us get away with that, although I hope not, but future generations are going to hold us accountable. "Where was your vision and your courage?" they will say. Mr. Speaker, I hope that we in this Chamber on both sides of this House can find both the courage and the vision. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, at the outset, I too, would like to congratulate you on your election to the position of Speaker of the Chamber. I think, you already have demonstrated your fairness and impar­ tiality, and as House Leader of the Opposition. I look forward to working with you and will attempt to do what I can to maintain the decorum and orderly debate on this side of the House. I cannot pledge, of course. to the Opposition House Leader that the rules of the House may in fact not be used to achieve the ends of the Opposition.

I also would like to offer my congratulations to the Member for Flin Flon who has been elected Deputy Speaker of the House and my congratulations to the newly elected members. J know many of the others have made reference to the women who have been elected, that they are happy to see so many women elected to the Legislature. I suppose, the other way to phrase that is that we are happy to see such few men elected to the Legislature this time around. I wish 227 them well as members in their deliberations here.

I can congratulate too, the First Minister for leading his troops through the election and defeating the Con­ servatives in power. I may have something to say about the tactics, but I have to congratulate him on being able to pull it off. I congratulate the memb ers who have been appointed to Treasury Bench and I suppose for those who haven't, there is always the possibility of the future.

But I think that special congratulations are due to the Minister of Energy and Mines and to the Minis­ ter of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, and to the Minister of Agriculture, and to the Minister of Finance, because the First Minister has identified these gen­ tlemen as the "insiders." I have here an

article before me entitled "Howard Pawley, Quiet Man in Power," in which he begins to boast about the quality of men and women who make up the leadership of his party. He identifies Wilson Parasiuk, Vic Schroeder, Eugene Kostyra and Bill Uruski as the insiders. To the rest of them, Mr. Speaker, I believe that they simply have to continue to work and perhaps in time, they too may be identified by the First Minister as the insiders. Mr.

Speaker, I also would like to acknowledge the excellent work that my predecessor in part of the area that I now represent, Henry Einarson, did for the years during which he represented Rock Lake and Chur­ chill. If it hadn't been for the Member for Rock Lake here during the last four years, I venture to guess that the Port of Churchill might even be closed today. Henry served his constituents very well for that period of time and earned their respect, and I trust that I will be able to do the same. I would also at this time like to welcome what I might call the new part of my consti­ tuency, Mr.

Speaker, because there are a number of new communities such as Cartwright and Mather and Baldur and Mariapolis and St. Alphonse, the Swan Lake Indian Band, the Towns of Swan Lake and Somerset and Notre Dame de Lourdes, Altamont, Bruxelles and St Leon. -( Interjection)- No, I wouldn't leave out Altamont. I hope I will be able to represent those communities adeq uately. That brings me to a point, Mr. Speaker, I wish to congratulate the Mover and the Seconder of the Throne Speech.

I want to make a comment that fol­ lows from that, because there's something that trou­ bles me a little bit and I am going to go into this a little bit at the moment, because the Minister of Municipal Affairs opened up this area of discussion this after­ noon when he began to examine what progressive conservativism stood for, and could see some contra­ dictions he said in the term progressive and conservative. I see some contradictions and some points that just haven't been adequately explained to me, Mr. Speaker, among the members opposite.

When I hear the Member for The Pas speak about the importance of the family unit, and I hear the Member for Burrows talk about the importance of morality in government, and then I hear that the First Minister, again quoted in the article, "Howard Pawley, Quiet Man in Power," says, "I'm a socialist"; then I hear the Attorney General say that he speaks for the party and in response to a suggestion from the Member for Lakeside that maybe he had a change in his political views over the years, he said no, he hasn't changed.

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 Then I go back, Mr. Speaker, and I begin to look a little bit at what socialism is supposed to be, at least the way that various authors have presented socialism to be. Among the things that are always stressed his­ torically about socialists is that indeed they do not regard the family as being an important unit. They do not, Mr. Speaker, I ask the honourable members to review the historical documents with respect to social­ ism and perhaps if they would like to hear what I have to say then perhaps they might not feel the same way.

Another feature of socialism has been the abolition of private property; it has been communality of prop­ erty; that is one of the features of socialism. Within socialism the policy or the philosphy of socialism, historically, religion has been something that has been, if not outlawed, has been discouraged in very effective ways. Now the question of morality, in my mind of course, is something that always flowed basi­ cally from religion.

If in fact then the members oppo­ site are not socialists, if they don't espouse that kind of doctrine that historically is shown to be the case with socialism, then I think they should make that very plain, and I am pleased to see that the Memb er for The Pas and the Member for Burrows speak in a way that indicates that really they are not socialists, they are not. And I ask them if they don't wish to accept my assessment of what the historical record shows, Mr.

Speaker, then I ask them to take some time to review it for themselves and see truly what socialism has been over the years and decide whether that's really the philosophy that they espouse or not. These times, Mr. Speaker, are interesting and dra­ matic and even crucial times in the history of the world as the various economies of the world struggle with ideologies and with how they should proceed to try and solve the economic problems that beset many countries of the world today.

We have seen situations where several governments have changed in the period of one term, our own of course being the one closest to us, but we also have seen that sort of thing happen in the United States, and we've seen it happen in Britain, and we've seen it happen in France. We've even seen the government change in Sweden and in Finland.

It seems, over the decades, that economies of the world have developed according to certain ground rules and that they now have arrived at a point where they're not producing the kinds of goods and services and standards of living that people had expected and they have tended to turn to some other type of government to see if they can do a little better, and it hasn't mattered much who has been in power.

In the case where it has been a socialist government, such as in Sweden, then they have turfed them out and turned to look further right; in places where they have had governments on the right, they've turned them out and looked to governments on the left to try and get some kind of system that will work under today's circum­ stances.

That's one of the economic realities today and the members opposite would do well to recognize what the realities of today are because we're no longer in the period of growth that was experienced in the 1950's and the 1960's when governments were able to tax more heavily as the economy grew, take more and more money out of people's pockets and redistribute more to provide services that the majority of people acknowledged were necessary. 228 Those times are gone and the members opposite, for the past four years, of course, did what they could be expected to do, to criticize the government and to attempt to get us out and to move into power them­ selves and they were successful in doing that, Mr.

Speaker. But now they are government and they are going to have to be responsible for their actions and if they don't acknowledge the realities that exist in the world and the realities that existed over the past few years, then they certainly will be doomed to failure. I think they're doomed to failure in any case, but I'm going to put a few things on the record, especially for the benefit of the new members, because I think there is a possibility that they may have fallen victim to the propaganda that came from the party and from some of the older members. Mr. Speaker, these members can check it themselves.

I encourage them to go to their Minister of Finance and ask for information; to go to the Minister of Economic Development and ask for information. Even if the Legislative Assistant of the Premier doesn't have access to the files I'm sure that if some of the other members wanted to go and ask that they would be able to get this information. Let me tell you what the situation was when we took over in 1977-78 - I'm not going to go on this too long, but I do wish to put a few facts on the record. When we took over in 1977 the growth of the economy in 1977 was 0.8 per cent.

Now, the members opposite will probably not recognize that as a familiar figure because the members opposite, the Member for Brandon East especially, always took the average of the eights years of the previous government and that's fine, that's fair game, but it covered up what was happening in the last years of their administration. I say, again, Mr. Speaker, go and check the record. In 1977, growth in this province was 0.8 per cent Unemployment in the province in 1977 was 5.9 per cent; it was up from 4.7 the year before. Mr.

Speaker, these figures are ones that prevailed in 1977; they flowed from the policies of the previous New Demo­ cratic Government. Retail sale in 1977 were 4.4 per cent and the deficit - and I would like the members particularly to pay attention to this, Mr. Speaker, - the deficit, as a percentage of expenditures of government that year, was 11. 7 per cent; as a percen­ tage of the revenues of government, it was 13.3 per cent; as a percentage of the gross provincial product, it was 42 per cent.

Now, the Throne Speech makes reference to Manit­ oba's economy was in a weakened condition and so on and so on when the N.D. party took over this year. If I said the deficit, Mr. Speaker, I correct myself. It's the total debt of the province, direct and guaranteed debt, amounts to 42 per cent of the gross provincial pro­ duct. Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for drawing that to my attention. In 1981, when the N.D. party took over Government in Manitoba, by comparison - and this is only the most rec