Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRI.DAY, DECEMBER 20, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURAB.LE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 97

December 20, 1974. The House met at 11:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 2283 (Morning) STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: RH - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations . MR. E. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, all honourable members are aware we have been searching for some time now for a suitable Chairman for the Workmen's Compensation Board. The last board was disbanded some time ago. We have advertised and received a number of applications for the position of Chairman.

A selection board was recently set up headed by the Chairman of the Public Service Connnission, Mr. Bob Olivero, reported back to Cabinet with their recommendations. As a result of the search I am happy to announce that effective January 1, Hr. W.J. May who is presently the Assistant Deputy Minister of Manpower in my department will assume the full-time position as Chairman of the Workmen's Compensation Board. Mr. May, as most members are aware, has had a fairly long career with goverµment.

A short resume; previous to coming with government I might point out that he was secretary of the Newfoundland Federation of Labour for two years, was appointed by government to act as the first permanent secretary of the Worbten's Compensation Board in January, 1951 and held that position for a couple of years; subsequently appointed by government as a member of the Apprenticeship Board,acted as secretary of that board; in 1953 he was appointed to the position of Director of Apprenticeship Training and Tradesmen's Qualifications; in 1960 he was appointed to the position of Principal, Vocational Training Institute; in 1963 he was appointed to the position of Director of Trade Training, Department of Education; in 1965 was appointed to the position of A.Bsistant Director of Technical and Vocational Education; in 1968 he was appointed to the position of Director of Vocational Education and in 1973 was appointed to his present position of Assistant Deputy Minister of Manpower in the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations.

We are very confident that Mr. May will serve as an excellent Chairman 8788

December 20 . 1974 . Tape 2283 RH - 2 of the Workmen's Compensation Boarcl anci has the capabilities and certainly the background to be ab.le to do a good job in that position. I mi~ht point out the ne.""<t steps to be taken in relation to the Worl<lllen's Compensation Board are the appointment of an Executive Director as well as the appointment of commissioners to serve on the Board with Mr . May as Chairman . These commissioners, of course, traditionally the same thing will a pply, now traditio nall y represent equally organized .labour and employers.

We are hopeful that this can be accomplished within t he next months or by the end of .January, 197 5 we should have the full compliment of the Board as well as an E.""<ecutive Director in place . I regret that I do not have a written statement to distribute to the honourable members but I would be quite happy to answer any question s they might have if there are any on this statement. 1!R. SPF..AKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island . HR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, 87J~

December 20, 1974 Tape No. 2284 NM - 1 I must say that I can find no fault with the minister's announcement that Mr. W. J. May has been selected as the gentleman to head up the Workmen's Compensation Board of this province. It is unfortunate, Sir, that the workers of this province have been left in the hands of a group of civil servants for so long and I do hope, Sir, that the minister will move swiftly now to appoint an executive director of the Workmen's Compensation Board and the two commissioners that will support Mr. May in the important work that he has to do as Chairman of the Workmen's Compensation Board.

Mr. May, Sir, is a gentleman that I have known for a good many years. I can remember Mr. May when he was over on the Southside in an old shanty, I thi~k as Director of Apprenticeship Training. Mr. May pioneered manpower training in this province. I want to congratulate him on his new appointment. It adds another dimension to his already, Sir, excellent career in the public service of this province and I do want to wish him every success in his new job. I do hope, Mr.

Speaker, that when the minister is considering the two commissioners that he will not allow himself to be influenced in any way, shape or form because I do not think there was any politics involved at all in Mr. May's appointment. I hope that this is coming events casting their shadows before them and that the two commissioners will be appointed on a straight basis of qualifications and ability to do the job rather than on politics. MR. SPEAKER: Any other statements by ministers? The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I am happy to inform this honourable House that yesterday the Royal Commission on Mineral Revenue presented its findings to government, presented a copy to the Lieutenant-Governor and delivered a copy to myself, I want to thank Mr. Gordon Goundrey,the Chairman 1an eminent economist,and Mr. Leonard Martin of Corner Brook, a lawyer, and Mr. William Maher, formerly of Buchans now of St. John's, mining engineer, all 8790

December 20. 1974 Tape No. 2284 NM - 2 of whom put in some very difficult work on a very complex matter. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out that it is one of the rare occasions when a royal commission has actually brought in its report within the time scheduled at the time the commission was set up. So I want to compliment these gentlemen. This commission's report will now be studied by government in the hope of releasing it early in the new year. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other statements from the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy? MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, again for the interest of the members of this honourable House, I would like to announce the establishment of five new positions within the Department of Mines and Energy and I mention this because there is one position of particular significance. The five positions are for senior geologists in progra111nes of geological mapping, mineral evaluation, _geochemistry and information and public services. Appointments to these positions are expected to be made by March 1975. Now of particular significance is the establishment of a position for a senior regional geologist for Labrador.

This will establish on a continuing basis the department's geological mapping programme in Labrador which was begun in 1974 when we had two field parties in the Seal Lake-Makkovik Relt as part as the Canada-Newfoundland Mineral Exploration and Evaluation Programme. Hopefully,if finances permit, Mr. Speaker, the department plans an expansion of the programt "e. We would like to see around seven field parties a year in order to achieve the geological map coverage of these areas of Labrador that have high mineral potential. In order to achieve the level of coverage, Mr.

Speaker, that other provinces have already arrived at, this under the terms of union, the responsibility for geological mapping was assumed by the federal government and the understanding was, although it is not spelled out in exnressed terms I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, but the responsihlity was clearly assumed by the federal government and Mr. Speaker, I am sorry to say that in my opinion they have not done what was undertaken at the time. They have not provided funds to bring Newfoundland up to the level of mappirrg that other provinces have arrivet1 at. We hope to see f"\-, ,, ~ Uf.1.L

December 20, 1974 Tape No. 2284 NM - 3 improvements in this area over the next few years because, Mr. Speaker, this is one of the things that will be most beneficial in terms of leading to further mineral development in the province. In other words getting the mapping done, getting the information out to companies who are interested in investing money in exploration so that we can have more mines and more employment for all Newfoundland _ers. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this seems to be rather a routine matter. MR.

BARRY: Ask the honourable members for Labrador? MR. NEARY: Well I am glad, Sir, that Labrador will be gone over now with a fine tooth comb by this team of geologists that the minister will appoint. I think this is very necessary. The minister did not make it clear, Sir, and perhaps at a later date he might wish to tell us why it is so necessary to set up an information public service in the minister's department when we already have Newfoundland Information Services and we already have a team of people pwnping out propaganda down on the eighth floor in the Premier's Office.

So I would like the minister to make it clear, Sir, or to convince me why this was necessary. But nevertheless I think the appointment of the geologist to do the mapping in Newfoundland is very essential if we are going to develop our natural resources and open up new mines and so on. I am particularly glad, as I am sure my colleague the member for Labrador North is pleased to hear - MR. EVANS: Long overdue. MR. NEARY: the announcement that they are now going to concentrate their energies and efforts on trying to discover new minerals and so forth in Labrador. MR.

SPEAKER: Are there any other ministerial statements? REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Health. 8792

December 20, 1974 Tape No. 2284 NM - 4 DR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table for the benefit of the honourable members of the House the annual Report of the Newfoundland Medical Care Commission. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: In response to a question from my friend, the honourable member for Twillingate a couple of days ago who wanted to know the amount of money spent on the vessel, "The Norma and Gladys," I have some information for him.

The total amount of federal funds spent to date, or the total amount of federal funds I should say - $165,738: the amount spent to date - $137,578, leaving a balance of$ 23,160. The total provincial contribution - $4~,000: and there is presently a submission into the National Museum people in Ottawa for operating expenses in the amount of S43.968. I might say, Mr. Speaker. there has been a great deal of interest shown by the federal government in this project and I for one am very, very pleased that this administration has been able to bring about the rt?storation of this vessel, one of the last of its kind.

It certainly indicates a very promising future. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. ROUSSEAU: The honourable member for Bell Island a few days ap.o asked for some information on a letter th~t 1 received from St. Bernard's in respect to the road conditions down there. T have a report now which I will p.ive him. I might say that the report is dated on December 13, but it is the first opportunity since the question has been asked that I have had to give the report. Here is the report as I have it.

Len Singleton Limited has a contract with this department for reconstruction of 1.4 miles of hiphway from Bay L'Argent towards !!arbour Mille. This

section of road is completed and is reported to be in good driving condition. The same contract includes reconstruction of 2 miles of road from the Jacques Fontaine and St. Bernard's intersection with the Harbour Mille Road goinp towards the Burin Peninsula Highway. () 7 0 'l V I WO..,

December 20, 1974 Tape No. 2284 NM - 5 The contractor has recently started this

section which includes cutting down the grade of the existing road over a hill of rock and filling in a sag in the old road. This

section is still under construction and is hoped to be completed soon. ORAL OUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: I have a question first of all, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Mines and Energy. Would the minister be in a position to elaborate on the reported cutback in mining operations at Consolidated Rambler, Baie Verte? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I can get the information for the honourable member.

The only thing that I can think of off hand that might have some affect if that is in effect a decision by the companies>that there has been a significant sl1.11rp in copper prices as the honourable member probably knows. , But I will get whatever details nr information that the department has on it. At the present time I am not aware of any particular d~ctsion made alon~ those lines. MR. SIMMONS: Hr. Speaker, a question for the honourable Minister of Transportation.

There has been considerable concern around the Community of Harbour Breton in the last few days about a rumour 1 guess, widespread at any rate, that the Highway's winter maintenance depot at Harbour Breton is to be phased out and is to be combined with the Seal Cove maintenance operation. I wonder would the minister comment on this? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Collffl\unications. MR. ROUSSEAU: It is a rather topical question because we had a question on that this morning as well from people in Harbour Breton.

Apparently there is some rumour down there and I have checked with officials. We have at this point in time no intention of closing down the depot at Harbour Breton. It is, as the honourable member suggests, a rumour at this point in time and I have no knowledge of any intention of this department doing so.

December 20, 1974 Tape No . 2284 NM - 6 MR. ~EAKER: The honourable member for tlenni tage. MR. SIMMONS: A ~uestion for the honourable Minister of Education ~ I wonder would the minister in view of the increasing costs of boar dinR accommodations for district vocational school s t udents who are attendinp. schools outside of their own communities and unable to commute therefore , in view of the increasinp. costs of boardinp, would the minister indicate what p.overnment's int ention might be concernill!t the possibility of increasin~ weekly allowances for the provincially sponsored studen t s at those schools? MR.

SPF.AKER: The honourable Minister of Education. ------ MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. insofar as that 879~

December 20, 1974 Tape 2285 (Morning) PK - 1 is related to the next fiscal year which of course is still part of this academic year, then it would be a hudgetary ronsi.deration hut certainly this is a matter which will he taken into cons:!deration. MR. SIMMONS: A supolementarv, Mr. Speaker.

Since part of the school term will be nart of the succeeding fiscal vear hut many of the students of course are exneriencinp. real financial difficulties now, inmost cases their boarding accommodations is actually exceeding the amount of the allowance, I am wondering if the minister would take under advisement the matter of increasing the allo~•7ance in the current f:!scal veare MR. SPF.AKER: The Hon. Minister of. f.ducation. MR. OTTENHETMER: Mr. Sneaker, for the approximately three months which remain of the current fiscal year I do not think it would he nossihle to change it. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon.

Member for St. Barhe North. MR. F. B. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, this question comes as a result of a representation from St. Barbe North. I do not know whether to address it to the Minister of Transportation and Communications or the Hon. Minister of 'Porestry and Agriculture.

In view of the fact that certain people,particularly peonle working on LIP pro.1ects during thii; winter wish to use some of the forestry access roads particularly on the Northern Peninsula and the new ones that are being built, does the government have any oolicy at all with respect to the plowing and the keeping open of these roads during the winter months? I do not know wMch minister would like to answer the question. MR. SPEAKEl?: The Hon. Ifinister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. H. COLLINS: (HINISTJ<R OF FORESTRY AND AGRICULTPJ!f.): Mr.

Sneaker, I would like to, if I knew what the honourable member is talking about, I would he glad to discuss it with him outside to r-et the f.ull details of it, to see what we can do. MR. F. ROWE: ~fr. Speaker, I annreciate the minister's answer . I can assure him there is a need for the opening of such roads. 8790

Tane ?.285 (~orninp,) PK - ?. The Puhlic Works lfinister :ls not here th1 s morninp,, S:l.r, nerhans I can address the ouestion to, I thought the Premier was here - ..,,hat arout the "'inister of Education, '.Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate whether or not the fa:llure to ohtain the ru:llding permit for the construction of the new ann]ied Science and FngineP.r:lng building at Memorial University will delay in any way the construction or compJ.etioTI date of that particular school? 1-fR. SPEAKF.P., The Hon. Minister of Education . ~. OTTFNHFJ'!F.R: Mr.

Sneaker, to the best of my knowledge th1.s would not cause any serious delay .. "Presumably they have applied for a nerm:!t and they have not p:otten it, so they ,~1.11 have to rear,ply and fulfil ,.,hatever qualif1.cations or whatever arld1.tional :Information 1s· necessary. HR. SPF.A.KF.R : The Hon. Hember for Lahrador North. -..m. M. wonnwAP.n: "Ir. Srieaker , I ~•ould like to direct a question to the Hon. "'inister of Fisheries.

As of yesterday I learned that the J.ahrador Linerhoard mill would cutback some thirtv oer cent :1.n their nroduction of wood this year, and conseouently the nrorluction at the m"! 11 w"! 11 r,e lower than th:! s nrevious year. I t~onder 1. f the minister could elar,orate and tell tJ-,e flouse exactly what is hapr,ening in the Lar,rador T,i nerhoarrl operation and 1-tow it will effect a number of neonle in jobs? '1R. SPF.AKFP · The Hon. Minister of l"isheries. PON. J.C. CPJ1SRIF (t!INIS'l'Fl'. OF FISJTERIF.S)· '-fr. Speaker, I think the honourarle pentleTT1an :ls a bit nremature.

The company is now reviewing what its policy - "R. wormwA11JJ: Inaudible. "ffi, CROSBU:, No, "!-ut T will explain it, ii: he will let me answer, and then 1.f it is not satisfactory he can ask again. The oosition :Is that the comnany is revie~dng what its wood reouirements will be next vear, in view of the fact that :It now has a very extensive inventory of 879"/

Decemher 20, 1q74 Tape 2285 (Horninr,) 'PK - 1 wood. I do not remember the exact figures but I thinl, the company over this year is going to cut and deliver to the mill something like snn,nn~ cords that is nurchased wood and wood from Labrador and wood from their own cutting operations on the island. ~o they have auite a large inventorv of wood which they should work off next year. Therefore, it will not be as necessary for them next year to cut or purchase as much wood in the next twelve months, in the vear 1cn5. That is what thev are revie"t.ring now.

As far as the Goose Ray operation is concerned,I do not think it will result in any reduction in employment it would be very minor in that area. The major problem there has been, as the honourable gentleman knows, in getting sufficient neople up there to cut the wood that they want to cut in that area. While I forget the exact figures, there will still he a requirement for 500 or ~nn or 700 peoole in the Lahrador Area next year, even if they reduce the:lr cut somewhat.

I am not sure what fip:ures thev are d1.scussinp 1.n reducing it up there hut,in any event, I would say that :It w111 not effect employment in the Goose Ray/llappy Valley Area. I th:lnk that they were there yesterday to discuss this with the neonle :Involved in the operation at Happy Valley/Goose Ray. Hut the situation is that the Labrador Linerboard will need to cut less wood next year because it has a large inventory of wood now.

It had greater success in getting wood than it was anticipated, and partly because the production at the mill this vear will be under what we anticinaited. '!'he twelve months that w111 end at the end of March this year w-f.11 prohably see a oroduction of some 200,nnn or 210,000 tons in linerboard rather than 225,nnn or 2sn,000 tons that might have heen expected because of various nroblems in connection with production at the mill. These problems, ~r.

SneaYer, have now been largely overcome but within the last eight ~,eeks the linerboard market has turned exceedingly soft in the United States of Alllerica, and therefore throughout the world. The nrice in 1:1.nerhoard has not declined because the various linerhoard mills are trvinp: to hold the C798

necember 20, 1074 Tane 22~5 (Mornin~) PK - 4 nrice hy cutti.n!t their production. Most of the TJ.S. linerhorad mills are p,oing to he closed over the two weeks r.hristmas neriod and they are going to have shutdowns during the first nart of next year to try and reRtrict their nrocluction, so that the linerhoard market :Is exnected for at least the first half of next vear to be soft, ancl it will he ~ore difficult to sell 11nerhoard, hut particularly during the first half of next year. Thilt of course also means that it is not anticipated to be as p;reat a reouirement for wood.

AN HClN. 'IP'RE~: A hlack market then. MR. r.RJlSJlIF: There is no hlack market in the sale of our linerboar<l, Mr. Sneaker. Practically all the linerboard produced by the T,ahrador Linerhoard haR heen sold in F.urope for the Rimnle reason that the orices in Eurooe for linerboard have been, I thjnk, it is Rome seventy-five dollars a ton higher than the prices in the Dnited States of America. And practically all linerhoard produced by Labrador l..inerboard has heen sold in Furope or outside the United States.

Some has heen sold in South America at prices that are based on the sliding scale between the U.S. and the l'urooean orice. Labrador Linerhoard will next year continue to sell most of :Its nrod~ction in F.urope, and hopefully the prices ,~:111 maintain themselveR there, but if the American mills find that they cannot sell all the linerboar<l they are producing in the TT.s .. ~hich they have heen doing this year, and start to dump it in l'urope and hreak the orice there, of course, that will have an effect on the price we will get.

So that generally Rneakinp: is the position, I think, in relation to that ~uestion. ~- SPEAKER: The Hon. Memher for Bonavista North. MR. P. S. TI!OMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries; did the Linerboard Mill during this past season, that is, 1074, import woocl from other provinces, and if they did, will thev also imnort ~mod from other provinces cluring the cominp; season? 879~

December 20, 1q74 Tape 2285 (Morning) PY - 5 MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Fisher:les. MR, CJWSBIE: I cannot say from memory, Mr. Sneaker, 1-1hether there was any wood hrought in from outside the province this year. If there was there would have been very few cords,nerhaps 8,nnn or 10,00n cords. J would have to check to get the exact amount. It would either he from Prince Edward Island or from New 11runswick. Of course the problem up to now is that they have not been gettinp, sufficient wood but we seem to have that overcome. Ile would certainly not he planning to bring any wood in next year, Mr.

Speaker, hut I will have to check to get the exact amount. But it ~muld not be very much. "MR. P. 'T'F.OMS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder could the minister !!;et the figures for me and also the approximate estimate of wood that is to be imported during 1975. Another question for the minister, Mr. Speaker; could the minister confirm or deny the report that the Linerboard Mill during 1~75 will not be purchasing anv ,,,ood east of Grand Falls? 'MR. CROSBIF.: I cannot confirm that, Mr. Speaker. No, I cannot con- firm it.

I !'lean,that may be something that they are discussing now, and that certainly is a possibility because any wood east of Grand Falls is extremelv expensive for the Linerboard t'ill because of the transportation costs. But when the Lahrador Linerhoard "!ill knows what its nolicy is going to be next year I will inform the House or let the honourable gentleman know.But that is a nossiMlity, ves. 'Ml?.. THOMS: }'r. Speaker, I would also like to direct a auestion to Minister of Ffsheries, as the Minister of Fisheries.

Seein/1' that the federal government are taking a very great interest in the offshore fishery and they are using the military boats for surveillance, I wonder if the nrovincial government are nlanninP; on asl<inp, the ferlera] government to allow them to have some officers from the Provinc~_al nenartment of Fisheries on these boats? tlR • SPEAKFR : The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSRIE: We have not asked them, ),,fr. Speaker, and I doubt that we would hecause_, number (1) we do not !iave sufficient nrovincial fisherv

DP.CP.mher '.'(), l "74 Tane 2285 ("'forninp.;) PK - F, officers anvwav to have them on these vessels. Secondlv. we MR. THO'f~ We have 1n,noo unemploverl peonle. HR. SPEAKER: nrder, nl.ease: l~. CRflSBIE: Secondlv, Hr. Sneaker, :It is the federal government's resnonsihi.lity and their .1oh to no lice these areas and not ours. I cannot see tl1at it would serve any useful nurnose for us to have our own off:1 .cials on any of these vessels. In addition to which, Mr. Sn~al<-er, there are very f.P.w of thP.m any,,rav conducting any surve:lllance) so it would not certainly emi,lov very manv men.

It mip.;ht employ one man a month. There is an :tnterest:!np.: offer that has been made to us,which we are goinr, to tat·e advantage of, from "'fr. Bill llennett of C,ander Aviation who bas a contract, I think it is with llastern Telenhone or with the neonle who own them, the c11bles, the Trans Atlantic r.ahles, he has the contract to natrol those with aircr11ft surveillance to keen trawlers avav from the cables and th:!.s kind of thing for this coming year.

He has written and offered, and of course they are out evPrvday on this cable patrol, hl'has written us and offered to provide us w:1.th information on what they see out there :In the way of foreign, you l·now. the foreign fish:1 .np.; fleet, where the vessels are, how many and to take our orservers with them whenever we want to send someone out. llut then it says that thev can go tn h:ls aircraft at no charge. "!R. COLLINS: ~. CROSBIP.: He can dron them when he :Is out there too. Well the honourable gentlemen - Yes, if anybodv wants to p.;o opposite we might arrange for a dron. But 8801

December 20, 1974. MR. P. THOHS: I am sure - MR. CROSBIE: We would miss you. MR. THOMS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Tape 2286 RH - l MR. CROSBIE: So, the point is, Mr. Speaker, that Mr. Bennett hlls made this very generous offer which we will take advantage of and at no charge. He is not proposing to charge anything. So we will from time to time have somebody from the Provincial Department of Fisheries go out on his aircraft and survey the scene. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable !·!ember from St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Education: In view of the fact that the various Roman Catholic School Boards have it in their power to prove Family Life Education Programmes in their particular districts, have these programmes first received the final approval of and authorization of the Minister of Education? and secondly, have the contents of these programmes or the curriculum, the course of study of these programmes been overviewed, say, by medical authorities or medical doctors to insure the accuracy of the medical aspects and scientific aspects of such courses hecause you quite frequently find mistakes even in science texts that are being used at the high school level?

I agree with the concept but I - MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, the curriculum or instruction people of the Department of Education are certainly aware of the Family Life Programme which the Roman Catholic Educational Authorities have decided to use in the schools under their jurisdiction. We have not endeavoured to interfere. This is a matter which we regard as essentially the responsibility of the Roman Catholic School Board. We are aware of the content of it.

We have absolutely no criticism of it and we view this as within the prerogative of the Roman Catholic School Authorities. MR. ROWE: Another question to the Minister of Education, Mr. Speaker: The minister promised last week that he would have the, in view of the fact the minister promised that he would have the information regarding the operating expenses of the other seven or eight School Tax Authorities C• 0 Q "'> liO !..

December 20. 1974. Tape 2286 Rll - 2 tabled before the House and the fact that he would have the Harris Report on Education tabled before this House this week and this is the last day of the week, can the minister insure that it will in fact, these items will be tabled today? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education. ---------- MR. OTTENI!EIMER: l!r. Speaker, the operating expenses for the school board. this was tabled a few days ago. MR. ROWE: We have seven now. There were - MR.

OTTENHEIMFR: --------- The honourable gentleman got the only ones that we haw•, the reason being that for School Tax Authorities their records end the end of June : in other words the year goes from the first of July to the thirtieth of June. We have not yet in the department received from the Auditor General's Department the audited accounts ending June to June past. I presume we will get these within the next month or eo but the honourable gentleman has all that we have because we have not received from the Auditor General's Department yet the audited accounts for areas ending last June.

With respect to the Harris Report I know I cannot give assurance that it will be tabled today. It is being photostated. It probably will not be available today. It should certainly be available the next time we meet. It is a fairly hefty document and there is quite a bit of photostating involved. MR. ROWE: '1R. SPEAKER: Not even one for me. llo copies at all. - The honourable }1ember for Hermitage. ~1R. R. SH!MmlS: Hr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister ------ - - responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs.

I wonder would the minister indicate whether the Government of Canada has agreed to participate finacially in any project commemorating the twenty-fifth anniversary of Confederation. MR. CROSBIE: ---- - -- --- That is an interesting question, Mr. Speaker. I would like to know the answer myself. Well 1 that is an interesting question. Well, the position, unless there has been any change in the last two days, is that the Government of Canada has said that it would participate in a 8803

December zn. 1974 . Tape 2286 Rll - 3 capital project but they have not said the amount and so on but they would make a contribution towards some particular capital project. A ~articular project has been suggested. I do not think - it has not been said what it is publicly, so I guess I cannot say what it is but a project has been suggested. The Province has suggested a specific facility that woulu meet a neeu here for people who have certain disabilities. I will have to check with ~Ir.

Jamieson when he comes down next week to see just where it is but they have agreed they want to make a capital contribution to some specific capital project and that is being discussed ~,ith them. !:!_R~_.!1'.!!'!0NS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary there: Is there any deadline by which time this must be agreed to or when does the minister expect there might be some public announcement on the subject. MR. CROSBIE: Well, of course, Ottawa has to decide that but certainly they would want to do it this fiscal year. So it should certainly be agreeu before the end of March.

Now, in fact I am not sure of the exact situation but I would think that something would be announced probably before the end of this calendar year. It all depends on if Hr. Jamieson comes down here next week 1but certainly it will be this fiscal year. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, is the minister indicating that he has a meeting with Mr. Jamieson on this subject in the next week or so before the end of the calendar year. MR. CROSBIE: Not just on that subject 1but I expect that Mr. Jamieson will be back for Christmas. I was talking to him this morning about it, Mr.

Speaker, and woke him up as a matter of fact, five to eight, Ottawa t:lme. MR. NEARY: Did the honourable member talk about the Leader of the Opposition? MR. CROSBIE: No, no, we did not even discuss unpleasant subjects like that. We discussed other more interesting topics. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: '1-IR. CROSBIE: Topics that may mean millions in the pockets of our New- foundland people. As you know, I saw him last week, a week ago, for about five 880~

December 20, 1974. Tape 2286 RH - 4 hours and reviewed all the status of various DREE agreements and subsidiary agreements and the rest, so I will be seeing him when he comes down again before Christmas or if not immediately after Christmas. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. HR . ..;!EARY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs already indicated that Ottawa was going to pour a substantial amount of money into the fishery.

Would the minister indicate what the Province is going to do in conjunction with the Government of Canada to help get the fishery over the crisis, the difficulties that they are now in? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, it took me an hour the other day just to describe, a week ago I think it was, some of the things that the Province was doing in the fisheries so I will not go over all of that again now.

The situation at this time is that today it is expected there will be an announcement from the Minister of Fisheries of Canada as to just what progrBIIDlle of assistance they are going to offer the Eastern Canadian Industry on an interim basis to carry them hopefully over the period from the beginning of January to the end of March or end of April.

Then the Industry will have to look at that assistance and see whether they think it is sufficient to keep them in operation in view of the heavy loses they have sustained the last eight or ten months, :md they will have to ascertain whether that puts them in a position to make a new offer to the union in connection with the dispute, collective bargaining dispute. HR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: I come to everything in my time but it takes me a while to warm up and give the background, paint the broad picture, Mr. Speaker.

They will have to examine that and we will have to examine that to see whether it enables them to make a new offer to the union of increased payment for the trawler fishermen. Whether the Province will make any contribution itself at this time will then be decided. Over the next three to four months though, Mr.

Speaker, we are working with the Federal Government on the long range programme of assistance for the industry, what changes are needed in the structure, are there changes needed in the marketing, what plants should be closed down on the basis of economics, whether those plants should be kept in operation because of social requirements, and the Province 880S

December 20, 1974. Tape 2286 Ril - 5 of Newfoundland will have to play a large role there because we are not in the position of being able to say "x'· plant should close, for example, Twillingate, because it is uneconomic. ne have to examine the social requirements and that is where the Province will have to participate finacially. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Well that has been. dealt with, both by the Leader of the Opposition and myself in this debate. The honourable gentleman, I think, was gone somewhere out, he was not in the House.

Roth the Leader of the Opposition and I agree that nationalization would not be the answer. We are heart to heart and jowl to jowl and brain to brain on that. MR. NEARY: Only - MR. CROSBIE: But there is no question that there will he conditions and controls imposed in connection with the industry. MR. !!EARY: l!r.

Speaker, one more question to the Minister of Intergovern- mental Affairs: Is the minister aware that Canadian National Railways plan to do away with less than car load freight rates in this Province which will mean an increase of 300 per cent in the express rates when they change it to the new category? This should be right up the minister's alley because it will give him an opportunity to attack Ottawa again. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, I think it is quite noticeable in my short tenure as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs that I have not attacked Ottawa at all - HR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: Nor, Mr. Speaker, nor do I propose to attack them unless we disagree on some basic issue that effects the good of the Province of New­ foundland at which point,if that becomes necessary, we will certainly make our position known. My relationship with Mr. Jamieson has been most pleasant, most convivial and we get along very well. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 880G

December 20, 1974 . Tape 2286. RI] - 6 Now, for to come b.ick to the CNR, that is not inter­ g overnmental. The CNR is above government . r mean governments are in the same class ~1t h tlie CNR. That would have to be a minister of lnter­ go<.Jnenta.l Affa'irs to deal i,.,ith the CNR. Our Min'ister of Transportation and Communications is the expert on that. We have noticed that l ess than car load lots, whether that would mean a 300 per cent inc rease , I do not know but I can assure you that the Minister of Transpo rtati on and Communications will certainly be following that up . ~I.R.

ROUSSEAU , You wish now to hear from the Minister of Inter- godr:iental Affair s. The honourable member broached a quest ion previously in this session a bout the 8807

December 20, 1974. Tape 2287 RH - 1 lifting of the rail freight rate freeze and we mentioned that we were corresponding with Ottawa on that 1 and we have done so ,and put forth our views very strongly on it. We have had replies from Mr. Marchand, quite lenghty replies suggesting that they are going to do it anyway because of certain policy statement, and I did promise the honourable member,and I will undertake to do so, that when the correspondence is completed it will be tabled in the House just what we have done. But I am pleased to announce that we will be meeting with Mr.

Marchand, the Atlantic ministers responsible for transportation 1in Halifax in mid-January. There will be a meeting of the Atlantic ministers responsible on the day prior to the meeting with Mr. Marchand ,and we will be meeting with him. There are quite a number of items on the agenda. As I understand it, unofficially this morning of the twelve or so items. 1 that I will be responsible for putting forward the position of four of them.

Certainlv these items will be discussed at that time; the effect of the lifting of the rail freight rate freeze on this Province, as ,,,ell as, I am sure, I prestn11e the other provinces and as well questions of this nature in respect of transportation and the CNR. So following these meetings I should be in a better position to inform the member, give actual replies to his questions as well as table the correspondence we have had with the Minister of Transportation on the lifting of the rail freight freeze. MR. NEARY: I hope, Mr.

Speaker, that the minister will make as strong a representation as possible on behalf of this Province. Sir, I wonder if the Minister of Fisheries could tell us what is happening concerning the unsold salmon belonging to the fishermen in Southern Labrador? Has the government come to their assistance? Will they be compensated in any way? Has the salmon been sold? ls it still in St. Anthony? What is the situation concerning these poor fishermen in Southern Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, the position on that is that the government has no real direct involvement in it. MR. NEARY: They have morally. 8808

December 20, 1974. Tape 2287 RH - 2 )IR. CROSBIE: Well, morally, we are not responsible for everybody's morals. We would certainly help in the situation if we can. The position is that the company known as McCain's Fisheries Limited purchased certain salmon from the fishermen of Labrador South during the summer - AN HONOURABLE HCMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, I am coming to that - And he purchased it from them apparently on the basis that they would be paid when he was paid or when the company was paid.

A shipment of that salmon was made to some purchaser or broker in Montreal who said the quality was not good enough and repudiated it, refused to pay for it 1 so that McCain Fisheries did not have the money to pay the fishermen for their salmon. But then there was other salmon that HcCain Fisheries purchased which was put down by them into the freezer of the fish plant at LaScie which is now operated by Newfoundland Quick Freeze Limited or leased by Newfoundland Quick Freeze Limited 1and that salmon was put in the freezer down there. There is · about 75,000 pounds of frozen salmon in that freezer.

The company is apparently insolvent, McCain's Fisheries. Their liabilities outweigh the assets. Now that 75,000 pounds of frozen salmon in the freezer at LaScie is one of the as~ets. There may be a sale for that, I am told, within a few days.But the returns from that, of course, the plant at LaScie has the right to certain charges that they have for warehousing and working on that salmon.

We have told them, Newfoundland Quick Freeze Limited, who have an arrangement with the government that they are operating the LaScie plant, the government picks up any loses, that the government would prefer them not to collect on that salmon, to add that to the operating loss for the year and the government would look after it. It comes to something like $20,000. So if they get a sale for that salmon we are going to do our best to see that the full price of the salmon gets back to the McCain's Fisheries and from them to the fishermen. Now that is the general situation ,1 think 1on that situation.

But the 75,000 pounds, when it is sold is not going to be sufficient to cover everything that the fishermen are owed up there. Is this company owned by the same gentleman who ran - 880~

December 2n, 1974. Tape 2287 RH - 3 MR. CROSBIE: It is owned by Captain Ed Cain. MR. NEARY: Former P.C. - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please; MR. CROSBIE: He is part owner. Who he ran for is irrelevant. It is certainly not any deliberate act on his part. It might be bad judgment or whatever but that is the situation. So this salmon may be sold in the next few days and if it is we are going to absorb the warehousing charges and costs at LaScie. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The time period for the question period has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask leave of the honourable House, Sir, and beg the indulgence of the Minister of Mines and Energy in accordance with Standing Order number (23), that the regular business of the House be adjourned to discuss a definite matter of public importance, namely, Sir, the widely publicized shortage of skilled tradesmen in this Province. Surely, Hr.

Speaker, if this House is to mean anything at all to the ordinary people of this Province, it will interrupt a paper work agenda and appoint a select committee, Sir, to launch an immediate independent investigation into the factors behind this shortage of tradesmen in a Province with record unemployment pnd recommend remedies, Sir, to correct this anomaly which 1 if allowed to go unnoti_ced fou) d really cripple future provincial productivity. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, if I could address myself to this question or on a point of order. That obviously, Mr.

Speaker, is not within the rule of a matter of urgent public importance that has to be dealt with immediately~ and is an abuse of the rules of this House because the honourable gentleman I has brought similiar resolutions before this House on every day of the session to date. Now it is like the old story of the man who cried wolf ;,,,hen the wolf was not there but one day a wolf was there and he cried wolf again. How can this House, Hr.

Speaker, ever accept such a motion from the honourable gentleman when he has brought one in every day, on a topic like this to do with manpower training that is not a matter that must be debated this very moment because the Province is in peril. It is a shocking abuse. as_;_o

December 20, 1974. Tape 2287 RH - 4 MR._ N~: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I resent the fact, Sir, that the Minister of Fisheries made the statement that this is an abuse of the privilege of the House. In my opinion it is not an abuse of the privilege of the House, Sir. It is in accordance with the Standing Rules of Order of this honourable House.

Any member, Sir, has a right, if he thinks the matter is urgent and should be debated immediately in this honourable House , has the right to bring in a motion, Sir, and I would like for Your Honour to direct the Minister of Fisheries to withdraw his remark that he made, Sir. I am sure he did not mean it, that this is an abuse of the privilege of the House. This is the sort of thing, Mr. Speaker, that downgrades this honourable House and I am surprised that the minister would take the attitude that he has. During this sitting of the House, Mr.

Speaker, we have on six or seven different occasions tried to have the House adjourned - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The honourable Member for Bell Island is rising to a point of order and now is proceeding to make a speech. While honourable members to my left or to my right for that matter because any honourable member could bring in such a motion as this, may not agree with the content of the motion, it may be a little annoying to them and nevertheless at the appropriate time, I am calling it the Orders of the Day.

Any honourable member does have the right to make such a motion and it is up to the - MR. ROBERTS: Hear! Hear! ---- - - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! It is up to the Chair to decide whether or not he accepts that motion. After readin g this particular motion the Chair does not consider it to be one which warrants the adjournment of the House at this time for a debate on this particular topic. On motion of the Hon.

Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Direction Of Intergovernmental Affairs In The Province. read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. 88 ., , ll.

December 20, 1974. Tape 2287 Rll - 5 Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The i<otorized Snow Vehicles And All-Terrain Vehicles Act." 11R. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications . MR. ROUSSEAU: I had number 121 on that bill, !-Ir. Speaker. 8812

December 20, 1q74 Tape 2288 ('forning) PK - 1 ''R. "ROUSSEAU: Well, Mr. Sneaker, this bill is meant to amend a T)rev:fous Act the Motorized Snow VehiclP and All-Terrain Vehicles Act. If I could I would like to sav a few words about that this morning. I think that the act 1.tself is a very important act, the amendment is a very important amendment and the regulations that will flow from the act as amended, ~y this amendment, will he of extreme interest to many ueople in this nrovince, to many members of this House and I would sugp:est more so to members representinp; Labrador.

AN HON, MEMBER: ~- pnu~SFAU: Inaud:f.ble. It is a bad Bill at the start. Well ,,,e will talk ahout it and we will see. But anyway :In the meantime T)erhans the nolitical differences that exist between the three memher1 for Labrador mav he cemented with the princinle of the bill. Any<7av the fact that the regulation and the ouerat:!.on and mechanics of licencinp: the vehicle that has become most popular in the province is certainlv topical at this time. Honourable members of the House, '-Ir.

Sneaker; will recall that in the last sess:1.on a bill was passed to govern the operat:!.on of snow vehicles and all-terrain vehicles in this Honourable House. It was the original intention of government to have these no:fnts that are now being put forward for amending to the act to be included into the regulation but it was the feeling of p,overnment that these changes were of significant imnortance enough to nut them into the actual act and to urovide more clout for them. Of course, from this act as amended wil] flow regulat1.ons and we will have more to say ahout that :1.n a few m:lnutes.

The advent of fmowrnohiles and all-terra:!n vehicles in the nrovince, of course, have created certain problems. Their uses are multiple. In certain instances thev are merely used as vehicles for oleasure or recreation. In other instances,and very few, I would suP,gest, they are used for hunting.But tn certain areas of the province, notably Coastal Labrador and certain other isolated areas, they are not only that, they are a means of transportat:l.on and a means of livelihood for the peonle. In the Northern Peninsula and other isolated areas they certainlv cannot he covered under one blanket as a pleasure and

November 20, 1974 Tape 2288 (f-lorn1.ng) PK - ?. a recreation vehicle. I think that honourah]e memhers can appreciate that to make one set of regulations to govern a pleasure and recreatjon vehicle would be rather simple ,hut to make regulations for vehicles which include a mult1olicity of uses, pleasure, recreation, hunting, a wav of life, transportation,it becomes a little more difficult.

Now originalJv we had solid ted, Rncl had received without solicitation,as well 1 renresentations from many neoole, many groups, manv official p;roups in the province, notahlv the Federation of Mavors and Municipalities had a brief suhmHted, the •?ild Life Assod .at1.ons, the :::nowmobile Clubs and so on were encoura~ecl to submit hriefs as to their thoughts on what regulations should he enacted to govern the operation of these vehicles. Certainly I would like to thinY that as many members as nossihle this morning would give their thoughts on this.

Tam sure that the contrilution of the "lember for Labrador North will be sip;nificant as well as,T hone,the Member for Labrador South, who is not in his seat at this time, will have an opportunity also to sneak as well as other members in the House,on the rep;ulations that woulcl ensue from this amendment and the Act itself. I might say for my part, tre snowmobile . or the sy1.-doo had become a wav of life manv years ago. It is rather difficult to travel in Labrador West right now and not see at least one snowmohile 1.n front of every house.

It has become a very important Part of life up there and I am sure is growinp. in other narts of the province as well. Now the act itself really was ori11;inally :Intended, and stHl is, to set up the machinery for the regulation and control of these vehicles, where they ooerate, how they ooerate and who operates them. Rut in looking through the Act in the preoaration of the regulations thereunder there were a counle of sections in there that were not covered completely in the estimation of government 1and so ensued these amendments.

This government have during the nast two and a-half years made every effort nossible to ensure that coming generations of Newfoundlanders would have the same ability to hunt as we have today, as our fon~fathen1

November 2n, 1~74 Tape 2288 (Morning) 'PK - 3 had years ago. In order to do so, of course, we must nrovitle some regulatory controls in respect to hunting on this type of vehicle. Now in this vein we work closely, of course, the nepartment of of ,.ransportat:1.on and Communications with the Department of Tourism and the l,T:f ld Life Officials and so ensued this section, Section (2) of the amendment which suggests that "Every nerson who operates a vehicle to chase, hunt, harass, pursue, worry, injure or kill any wildlife.,." should he included in the Act to provide the safeguard of these animals.

Also a fine is stinulated for that. And, of course, as we all know it is not necessary that a man with a gun would merely shoot an animal but by harassing them and by chasing them on a snowmobile of course there could be other consequences, ~,ithout a rifle shot, that could do harm to these animals. So government feels that it is imnortant to protect the wildlife, to ensure that cDl!ling generations of Newfoundlanders will have the convenience and the enjoyment of hunti .n11: as we have today and as our forefathers have had.

So that is an attempt to ensure that unfair advantage is not taken of these animals hy the use of these vehicles. In add:ltion, of course, Section(22) the second amendment to it, and if I may go to the original Act for a moment, the

section that :Is being amended, the

section in the original Act reads,

section (J,) "Merely prohihitin,z the driving of vehicles in defined locations." So what ve have none :Is taken out that mere one line, one sentence and substituted it with Section (3) (k) "Prohibitinr; the drivin,?: of vehicles.or any class or type of vehicle, or regulating or restricting the use of such vehicles, class or tyne within the nrovince or locations or areas wfthin the province.'' In other words the minister's discretion is that this could be limited to certain areas, the use of the.m or abandoning the use of them could be 1:1.m:1.ted to certain areas in the nrovince or could at, of course, government's d:l.scretion he made to cover the whole nrovince.

So there are certain discretionary matters there for the government to consider. 8Bi~

Novemher 2n, 1974 Tane 2288 (Morning) PK - 4 We certainly intend to consider them,as I said hefore, the multiple problems of pure pleasure and recreation, of hunting or the way of life,or transportation is necessary, these have to be con~idered. So for that reason we vould certainly welcOTile the renresentations of all members of the Rouse on any noints that they feel strongly enough about in respect to the regulations that would ensue from the Act as amended.

Certainly the conditions of licencing and operating ~'111 be nut into force shortly within the next year and also,of course,the other factors of oneration and the mechanics of operation of the machines will be the suhject of a white paner which government intends to put forward for the diagnosis of the various groups, individuals, hodies in the nrovince who are interested in them,to have their reaction to them, and the Premier will speak later on this topic. It is our intention,as it has been our intention,to listen to peopl@ f.n the province in resnect to the laws that govern this type of vehicle.

I think all members of the House, as well as all neonle in this nrovince,will apnreciate the difficulty in attempting to restrict a vehicle that is u~ed for nleasure and recreation as the snowmobile is, but we must also,of course,remember,and government is well aware of, and the ~remier himself is 8810

December 20, 1974, Tape 2289, Page 1 -- apb Morning keenly aware of the needs of other people in the province for hunting and transportation and this sort of thing. It is a rather difficult situation but we intend to cope with it by looking to the people and trying to enact the regulations in such a way that it will not be detrimental to those oeoole who have to use it as a way of life, as a means of transportation,nor will it be detrimental to those people who wish to use it for pleasure and recreation. Most of the Provinces of Canada have come up with some type of either snowmobile regulations on its own as the rest of the Atlantic Provinces have.

Whereas we have a Snowmobile or Snow-Vehicle and All-Terrai~ Vehicle Act, Manitoba, for example, has onlv an All-Terrain Vehicle Act which includes all vehicles of this type. Other provinces have varying situations. It was estimated 1and I can onlv give vou figures because we do not know at this Point in time, it was estimated, I think it was in '69,we were talking about this in the department, that there were approximately 10,000 vehicles of this nature in the province. We do not know, that is a rough estimate.

Right now, off the tops of our heads, we would suggest that there are probably 20,000 to 30,000 in the province under no regulations nor control. I remember in my days in Labrador Citv as a school principal we used to have a difficult time prohibiting during the school dav the use of snomobiles on school grounds. We finally put up some signs but unless there are regulations, of course, to govern these the difficulties will ensue and it can be an inconvenience to the public.

To the people in certain areas of the province, for exBJ11ple, who are on shift work or who wish to sleep during the dav, work during the night and so on, when these things are buzzing around during the day it becomes ~uite an inconvenience for these people. The regulations have to be of a ty:oe that will he all­ inclusive in order to attempt to take into consideration all aspects 88 ·1 -, .!. '

December 20, 1974, Tape 2289, Page 2 -- apb of the use of the Motorized Snow•Vehicle and the All-Terrain Vehicle Act. Morning We have certain points in this original bill and 18 honourable members have taken time or had the opportunity to read the bill which they may wish to col1ll'lent on. As I say, we will be open departmentally to any briefs, any presentations or any suggestions that honourable members would like to out forward this morning. Certainly they will be considered and I will try to answer all questions that honourable members put forward in my summing up of this amendment.

I think the important thing is that we have to realize that the explosion of the number of vehicles of this nature in the province is a recent occurrence. It is rather difficult to cope with them and try to be fair with all involved. We have, for example, had representation from skiers and ski people who use the areas for skiing and so on that motorized snow vehicles going over their ski tracks spoil them. They have to be considered. Certainly private property has to be considered.

I recall sometime ago a case in Ontario, because we were up north and it was important to us, that a gentleman went on another gentleman's land with a snowmobile, had an accident, had no permission to be on this gentleman's land, sued the gentleman who owned the land for costs and won. This was in Ontario. There are problems of this nature, certainly, but I think from the experiences of other provinces we will certainly learn much here.

This government in this act,as well as in any other act, are prepared to listen, to take into consideration the various representations made and attempt to come up with a clear and just set of regulations that will take into consideration the question of the operation of the Motorized Snow Vehicles and All-Terrain Vehicles Act. The intention right now, the suggestion is that license fees, of course, will be put on the vehicles, license plates will he put on the vehicles, that they would be suhject to the :!rivers having 8 8- ., q t ' .i. 0

December 20, 1974, Tape 2289, Page 3 -- apb Morning insurance, that there would be an age limit as to what age people should be. The act here as honourable members will recall if I they have read it or reread it lately, says that it is sixteen unless otherwise prescribed in the regulations. In other words, the regulations could say differently but subject to subsection (2) a person under the age of sixteen years shall not drive a vehicle unless accompanied by a person who is (

a) sixteen or older or if under nineteen properly insured. Unless there is a regulation permitting younger than a si~teen-year--old, of course, sixteen years old would be the limit, but of course, that would be subject to the regulations. Essentially what this act is doing 1and what the amendment is doing is giving the minister responsible for the act the power and the jurisdiction to make regulations thereunder,with the approval of the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council, of course. Certainly I would like to hear the comments of any honourable members on this topic.

Any questions, as I say, that they have to put forward we will certainly attempt to answer at the end of it. We think in government that this is a significant piece of legislation. It is an attempt to cope with a problem that is developing in our province. We are prepared, as I say, to listen to the people as to what sort of regulations they would like to see under these.

Of course, in the final analysis the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council must make the regulations and it is unfortunate everybody will not be able to be satisfied but we will certainly try to keep in consideration the various aspects of the operation of these vehicles. We think it is a significant piece of legislation, as the Premier suggested last night and I know that he would like to speak on it himself, Certainly, as I say, I would welcome the comments from my two honourable colleagues from Labrador, St.

Barbe North and, I am sure, other isolated areas of the province as well as my colleague the honourable the Minister of Tourism whose responsibility is the Division of Wildlife who will have responsibility for the regulations as they pertain to hunting and wildlife in the province. 881~

December 20, 1974, Tape 2289, Page 4 -- apb Morning MR, SPEAKER (Stagg): The honourable the Member for Labrador North: MR. WOODWARD: Mr, Speaker, I may comment that the amendment is a bad amendment, because of the fact that it does something for one particular area of the province and it takes something away from another particular area. I agree with the minister when he states that there should be some regulations brought in to control the all-terrain vehicles. I agree with him that in cities and towns people are harassed.

There are people rtmning over private property in order to get to the areas whereby they can use their machines. In other areas of this province that is not necessarily so. Since the snowmobile or the all-terrain vehicles came into isolated areas of the province where we have no roads, in one way or another they are being looked upon as automobiles. There are a number of things that apply to a particular automobile. This is an aid for a lot of people in remote areas,especially in the Labrador Coastal Areas,to derive a living.

One of the reasons why I say that it is bad is the mere fact that if you want to hunt in this particular portion of the province you are allowed to get into your automobile or your pick-up truck or whatever you have and drive to a particular area whereby you can hunt for moose or caribou. If this bill is passed in this particular House it will restrict people leaving a particular connntmity with a ski-doo for the purpose of htmting caribou. This is what the act reads.

If the regulations are going to be different from the act then you are going to be breaking the act because it says right here; "Every person who operates a vehicle to chase, htmt, harass, persue, worry, injure or kill any wildlife is guilty of an offence and liable on

summary conviction to a fine of not less than five hundred dollars and not more than one thousand dollars or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding six D10nths or both." AN HON. MEMBER: You are reading it in isolation. MR. WOODWARD: I am reading it in isolation but that is the way it reads. I do not know how you are going to build the - but you are not 88iO

December 20, 1974, Tape 2289, Page 5 -- apb allowed,according to this,to hunt with that particular vehicle 1 as we have restricted 8821 Morning

Tape 2290 (~orning) l'K - 1 in a number of areas in this province where you are not allowed to hunt hy aircraft. I susnect that the same tyne of regulations will he built~ if you want to hunt you cannot hire an aircraft to go in and land in a particular herd of carihou to hunt. So when the rep,ulations state this then I susoect that the same rules will aooly to the vehicle. You are not allowed to use a snowmobile to hunt no more than you are allowed to use an aircraft to hunt. So if this is the case, Mr.

Sneaker, and if this is the intent of this particular hill,then this bill should not be passed in this House because indeed it will affect the lives of a number of people in this province. Now if the minister can assure this narticular ~buse that the regulations will he built, I was under the suspicion that this narticular type of lep,islation would come in. I welcome some amendment. I think it is needed.

I think if a number of commun1tv councils throughout this province and a number of groups have been looking to the government to nrovide some tyne of regulation to govern, or to control the all­ terrain vehicles. I think it is good. I think in a lot of communities that we are having problems.

But then again when we bring in this type of legislation, and then when we,indeed,looking at a vehicle in one part of the province for purely a recreational vehicle, and looking at it in another nart of the nrovince were it is largely used as a way of 11.fe and to provide a livelihood,then again if ve are going to bring in this tyne of regulation then we should have two senarate sets of regulations, and not to conflict with the livelihoods of the neople.

I was watching a narticular television orogramme and I saw a narticular professor from the university on a prograTTDne not too long ago saying that there should be something done with regards to snow­ mobiles harassing wildlife in the province. I had suspected at that time, in the back of my mind, that this is the type of lep.;islation that the government would bring in, which to my mind is not the tVTJe of legislation that really apnlies to neonle. It does not relate to neople or a large oortion of our nooulation. 8822

December 20, 1974 Tape 229n (1<forning) PK - 2 The snowmohile :1.n a numher of communities, esnecially in col'l!Tlunities, Mr. SpeaJ,er, where vou have totallv no roads at all, T thinl<-, that is going to be very diff:I cult. lr, a community like Na-fn, in Northern Labrador, where this snowmobile is used for eip;ht months of the year, a way of life ,,,ith perhans ninety or ninety- five per cent of the neople, we could have :tn the C;ommun:ltv of Nain where we have a ponulation of ilOO neople as manv as 300 snowmohile,a. They are used largelv every day of the week hy the people.

If the" p.o to the r;rocery storP thev taJ.:e their snowrnohiles along to niclc un thPir groceries, if thev go into the other end of the village to visit with the:IT ne:lehhours they take their snm,mtobiles along. In lots ,,f cases ff you are a short distance from the schools, where there are no buses, the snowmorile is largely used. ft s a J11atter of fact, :1.n r.artwright_the school board is naying snowmobile onerator.s to haul the children in hv snowmob:IJ.e where there are no roads and no buses he:lng used from the other side of the harbour. So in this case, Mr.

Speaker, in that total population extending from ~al<kov:11< we have had neople who travelled from Rip.olet to Nain and travelled in the countrv for a distance of some fifty or sixty l'liles to hunt carirou by ski-doo.

I am sure that the honourable minister mav recall going hack three years ago where ,,re had three hunters stran!led in the ~•ilds inside of Nain and we had to go in by helicopter in the summer and retrieve their ski-doos for them• They left them in there and walked out of the hush for a distance of sixty or seventv m:lles and it took thiim a period of three weelrs to get hack to the eommunity of 'fain.

This whole Lahrador, not only the north hut indeed the south as well,denends largelv on the sk:1-doo• A lot of people use it to hring home firewood, a lot of peonle use it as a means of transportation from one communi.tv to another. T suspect that when the regulations are written and the hip fear that I havP is ••• AN HON . MEMBER: For hospital cases, emergency cases, you name it. The ski-doo with those people, thev are very efficient operators, 882J

necemher 70, 1974 Tape ngn (Mornfor,) Pl( - 3 they travel lonp. distances. Most of the local people through their own natural skills are expert mP.chanics, thev keep sk:I. doos runninf( for lonp neriods of time without the aid of anv skilled crafts or craftsmen to do it.

I suspect if Pe are f!:Oinp: to looJ.- at drafting regulations and if this is not brou!!;ht :1.nto consideration and I am sure i.t is not - when we look at this narticular hill and ,re have been subject to tM.s tvne of thing when vou try to restrict :ft for one use or another - I think this amendment is aimed d:lrectlv at not using a machine to harass wildlife. If that :Is the case then it is goinp: to he hard to separate the hunting aspect in Labrador from the recreational aspect of the thing here in the nrovince. So I suspect, Mr.

Speaker, that however you do this, now we have had over the years R.nd r:I ghtfully so there r-1ere regulations hrought in, and I would l:!ke to go back to the time when we larp:elv hunted in the wilds by airplane, a small aircraft, this over the years have been !!:raduallv wi'{"ed out for the same reason. You can go into a large marsh or :1.n on a J al,e and vou c,in land an aircraft in a herd of caribou.

You do not have to move out of the aircraft at all, vou !!:O in and land, vou take your gun and vou shoot vour caribou the same as thev shoot the wolves in the Arctic, and then vou put it aboard the aircraft and vou are on your wav again. Now this was prohihtted> hut 1.t ts not so w:1.th the snowmobile. The snowmohtle, if you are gotng to hunt for one hundred miles and you are goinp to travel that type of terra:1.n then you are going to have, to be well nrepared and vou are going to have, to have knowledge of the ]orql conditions.

So it is not everyone who is going to go in to a nart:I cuJ ar area, and :In other l••orrls you are restricted to some degree because you cannot get a licence to hunt caribou in Northern Labrador. Well I susnect, Mr. Speaker, that when you are travelling these lonp. distances it is onlv the neonle who are familiar with the env:l.ronment who can really take advantage of this. I for one sav that if this '{"atric••lar regulation is brought in and it in any way extiracts or takes away from the peonle their hunt:1.ng privileges by sJ,-.i-doo then this bill should not 882tt

December ?.O, 1974 · Tape 2290 (Morning) PK - 4 be nassed in this House. 1'he honourable minister went on to explain mavbe the regulations that would be brought in would be restricting the drivers to an age of sixteen years. I feel this is ludicrous. 11P. . "RJ'11SSF.All: I said the bill says that. (Inaudible). MR. W/'lOPfJARJ): Unless otherwise specified in the regulations. There are a number of areas in this nrovince where we should not have snowmobiles, if you are driving on streets where there is other traffic of things of that nature.

Now you will discover when you travel widely in this nrovince that the ski-doo is largely used bv a number of high school students for transnortation to and fro from school. I know that my son- have had a ski-doo since he was the age of eleven and operated it very carefully, verv skillfully and very safely and is still operatinf( it. I have another son who is seven years of age and he has a ski-doo too.

It is on a smaller scale hut then he is nermitted to use it in the wilderness areas of Labrador. ~o if we restrict the age limit to sixteen vears of age, which is the age limit when you are permitted to drive an automobile almost of any kind,then I suspect, Mr. Sneaker, that we are taking away something from the recreational life of the youth in this province. We should not attempt to do that.

I do not think it is the aim of the minister to take something away from the youth of this province because there is very little recreation in most of our outport com!llunities, and since the ski-doo has come in it has played a ma1or role, equally as 11RJCh as the family automobile. It has played a ma1or role in the way of life for a number of people and their children. This is the first onnortunitv - 8820

December 20, 1974, Tape 2291 RH - 1 rather than taking the fishing boat on a Sunday afternoon with an old putt, putt and going out to an island. ~ow during the wintertime they take their ski-dooes and they travel around with their girl friends from one community to another. I would hate to think in terms of regulations being built around this amendment to restrict that happening and I do not think it should happen, neither do I think that the minister in his wisdom will see that it happens.

I think that this particular vehicle 1 and when you look at it, although there has been a number of accidents cited and if we are looking at a total numher of 30,000 or 40,000 all­ terrain vehicles in this Province, and you look at the number of accidents that have happened,and I suspect, Mr. Speaker, that the all-terrain vehicle is largely used by the youth, the person.ho is under fifteen or sixteen years of age and not necessarily by the head of the family or the adult, as in cases like those I talked about in Labrador where it is a way of life for the people and they use them as a means of a livelihood.

So I think there are two important things that should happen. We should not let whoever is going to draft the regulations for this particular - I cannot support the bill because as I read the bill I am very much afraid that, it reads, it is very plain and very simple and I am afraid that the regulations will be drafted as such that it cannot conflict with the bill and in essence the bill will go through and the regulations will be built in its true form which will restrict people from hunting in Labrador with a ski-doo.

If this does happen then I cannot support the bill and I have no evidence, maybe the minister when he speaks again on the bill can show some reason or give us some assurance that this will not happen. But then again I am very much afraitl,as I have experienced the problem with the air­ craft) that if this happens, if this bill just goes through now, or this amendment is passed then the regulations will be built so that they will restrict hunting. This will not be a forward step, Mr. Speaker·. This will be a step backward which will affect the lives of a number of our people. MR.

WELLS: Does the honourable member permit a question? MR. WOODWARD: Indeed. MR. WELLS: - (First

part inaudible) honourable member on the question 8820

December 20, 1974 . Tape 2291 PJI - 2 he has raised about hunting with aircraft, in other words, that the aircraft was too efficient and game did not have a chance in effect. I would like to hear the honourable member's comments, Mr. Speaker, in Labrador, for example, we know there is hunting by ski-dooes. It has been a practice. Is the wild life in any danger of being too seriously depleted by this type of hunting in Labrador? MR. WOODWA.,_lU): No, we have been fortunate enou!1;h in the North.

Labrador is divided up into three zones and in the northern zone only the people who live in that partiuclar area are allowed to hunt in that zone. The people from Goose Bay and Happy Valley or the Lake Melville area are not allowed to hunt in that particular zone. There are very few caribou in around the Lake Melville area.But we have a number of caribou and our wildlife biologists are telling us, with the herds that we have north of Goose Bay and the population that is hunting those particular herds, this will no doubt be enough, that her~ will not be extinct for a long period of time and maybe never.

So there is no great danger there. The only danger there maybe as in a lot of cases where our regulations state that a family of six or eight can have six or eight caribou. Maybe eventually they will reduce that to four or five when they feel that the six or eight caribou is too many. We have one caribou per a member of the family.But there is no fear of that and if those people are going to hunt this is the only way they can hunt. If you cut off the ski-doc then those people will not be able to afford to do it by any other means. Neither is there any other means whereby it can be done.

So I suspect this is a great danger and when I look at the bill it reads very simple and plain, Mr. Speaker, that every person who operates a vehicle to chase, hunt - now, I cannot see how you can build regulations around that. If I am taking my gun, my provisions and I go to the wildlife officer and say, 'Look, I want a licence to hunt caribou," and he would automatically turn around and say, "How are you going to do it?" And there is no other way but for the person to turn around and say, "I go by ski-doo", and then he turns to the regulations and says, "No, you are not permitted to hunt by ski-doo."

December 20, 1974. Tape 2291 RH - 3 If this is the case: now, maybe I am seeing ,;omething here, or there is something in here that I am not seeing .But accordin g to the way it reads that you are not, in the cas~ that this particular bill is passed in the House then you will not be permitted to hunt caribou or any wild­ life. Now I do not know how this would affect going hunting for rabbit or things of that nature or to go and hunt for ducks or something. So , these are my concerns, Mr. Speaker. I thinJ , it is a bad bill as I see it>unless the minister can explain differentlv.

I think I have brought my points out on the bill. I cannot vote for the bill and I think if the bill is passed in the House then it will indeed do an injustice to a number of people in our Province. MR. SPEAKER (Stagg) : The Hon. the Premier. HON. F.D. lllOORES: Mr. Speak.er, I first of all would like to say to the Member for Labrador North that he can rest easy as to the intent of the bill. I think it is very important that the hill be interpreted in the manner in which it is meant.

First of all, the regulations for this bill will come out in the form of a white paper immediately after the jew Year when we will be asking for representation from the various parts of the Province. The obvious reason for this, Mr. Speaker, is the very simple fact that in a great many areas of the Province, the problems, the ui,age , of these machines are for totally different reasons, for totally different purposes,and this has to be taken into consideration. The use.of the snowmobile on the Coast of Labrador particularly.as opposed to the use of snownobiles around the City of St.

John's, ~re just as different as night and day. No one realizes that better than we do. So it would be our intent before anything is done regarding any regulations to make sure that thorough representation is madc ,r cc.iuse the reasoning behind this bill is primarily to insure that there is safety, that there are regulations that are meanin ~ful, but certainly in no way is it intended to interrupt a way of life where this sort of machine is necessary• Absolutelv not.

I want to clear that early and that is why I say the regulations will come out in the form of a white paper so that everybody will have an opportunity to comment on them and all these connnents will be listened to. 8828

December 20. 1974. Tape 2291 RH - 4 The other point I would like to make, Mr. Speaker, is that the regulations for the all-terrain vehicles, those track machines particularly we are talkinf, about, will be hopefully into effect by the time the snow is off the ~round and the snowmobile regulations will be into effect by the time next year comes. It would take that long to get full representation to make sure that they are covered properly. So I hope that partially answers the :1emher from Labrador North' s worry.

The wording of the bill itself where it says "To chase, hunt, harrass, pursue, worry, injure or kill"; now, Mr. Speaker, I think that is fairly self-explanatory whether you live in Labrador or whether you live in Buchans or wherever. The object of that is to stop the "Buffalo Bills" of this world from going loose on one of these machines. We had an instance last year where I think there was something like twenty animals slaughtered by one machine, where a man gets in with a gun mounted and away he goes. That is not good for any part of this Province no matter where they are from.

The idea is not to be cruel to animals, just go in and chase them for the sake of doing it and possibly they die after. It is a matter of bringing in regulations that will penalize anybody who abuses the way of life we have in this Province, not someone who needs the machine to use for the way of life they have in the Province, which they need for that way of life. Certainly that is not the intent at all. Mr. Speaker, I would like to talk, first of all, on snowmobiles.

As most people know the safety regulations,particularly in the more urban parts of our Province, the safety regulations are of critical concern because I know of members of this House,a s well as 882~

December 20, 1974, Tape 2292, Page 1 -- apb Morning every other member.of the travelling public,in the winter have been driving on highways and they have seen this one light coming at them and the danger of picking off some kid on a machine or causing some serious accident is something that is a very real possibility and one that certainly has to be controlled. I think in the more urban areas we are looking at recreation areas where these machines can be used, where oeople can use certain trails for ski-docs or snowmobiles. I think on the Labrador Coast, obviously, they have to be used for transportation.

There are parts of the Island part of the Province - on the Northern Peninsula particularly Harl>our Deep, Grand Bruit on the South Coast, areas that are isolated - most certainly need them for transportation as do some of the areas which have much heavier snowfalls. But having said that I still think it is terribly important that safety regulations be applied according to the district and the use which the machines are needed for. There is no question but that the regulations that will apply to the Coast of Labrador or the Northern Peninsula will be different than the ones that apply on the Avalon Peninsula.

Certainly, Sir, it is not a good thing,in my opinion, to have a situation where a man can use one of these machines to abuse the limited wildlife we have in the province. It has been done, it is being done more frequently every year.and it is something that has to be controlled. I am not talking about a man who has a licence to go in and get a caribou and he goes in and shoots it in Labrador when he has no other way to get there because it is one heck of a distance if you are in Labrador to go to shoot wildlife on that coast. A lot of people thb1k the wildlife is right on the coast. That is not so.

It is a long trip before you get to where the wilrllife habitat. The other

section of the bill, Mr. Speaker, which bothers me, I suppose, more than the snowmobile one is the all-track machines. I do not know how many people in this House have had the opoortunity to fly over the province. When you have seen the damage to the vegetation that has been done just by random use of track machines

December 20, 1974, Tape 2292, Page 2 -- apb Morning around this province - it will take, I think, something like thirty to forty yeare for this to grow back. Where we have so many marshes and bogs in the province this has caused damage that will, as I say, take many years for it to grow back. If it allowed to run tmchecked it will be even worse. The intent is, with the all-terrain vehicles, that people who have a genuine commercial use for them,of course, should be allowed to use them.

That would be, for instance, the patrol of power lines, they would have to be used for that purpose, they have to be used in woods camps, sawlogging industries, they have to be used even for outfitters , and,once again if we are talking about htmting, to take the equipment into the woods camps,but not to be used to go shooting from at that stage. Once you are in the location of your woods camp or your outfitters camp then quite naturally you should be able to do your hunting from that location. Basically what this bill is intended to do, Mr.

Speaker, is to preserve the way of life we have, to preserve the wildlife we have, to put some safety into the use of these machines so people will not be killed or maimed or whatever. You take a motor car and you have to be of a certain age and of a certain qualification in order to drive it.But you take a snowmobile and any kid can leap on the back of it and go charging down LeMarchant Road tomorrow morning - not in the city but for all intents and purposes there is no regulation as to how old he has to be before he pops off on his own.

The other thing that has to be remembered is the nuisance value in the urban areas. These machines scre~ching all around the place, doing a lot of damage, there has to be some control on them. This is the intent of this bill; basically to let people who enjoy recreation enjoy it; to let people who want to use these machines do it under controlled conditions, but not just to abuse the environment we have.

The regulations that will allow that will be put out in white paper form so that representation can be made from every group; recreational, outfitters, hunters, people in various parts of the province that ~ave different reasons for different regulations. That is why it will 8831

December 20, 1974, Tape 2292 , Page 3 -- apb Morning take so long before these regulations are put, actually, into effect. The easiest thing in the world to do is draw up regulations and put them into effect, but as the Member for Labrador North has pointed out, there would undoubtedly be areas that would have tremendous penalization by doing it in that matter.

The intent 1R to bring in the white paper on regulations early in January, to have the all-terrain vehicles legislation, that is the track machines and that sort of machine ready when the snow goes off the ground ·- when they come into play, and the snowmobile regulations ready fer next fall. The All-Terrain Vehicle Legislation will basically be under permit only and permits will be allowed according to the type of vocation the person is operating it for. Basically, Mr.

Speaker, this is, I think a terribly important bill for a great ,uany peoole It is amazing how many people do use these machines for recreation and also for work, for commercial reasons. I think it is terribly important to our countryside, to the wildlife, to our whole way of life in this province. But I can assure the House now that before any definitive regulations are brought in every aspect and every difficulty will be studied to make sure that they are done in the best manner. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista North: MR. P.S.THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, it is very difficult to decide whether or not you are for or against this amendment. I believe that if one considers all the pieces of legislation and the motions that we have had before this honourable House since we opened three weeks ago, this bill is possibly the most important. It is even more important than the controversial Redistribution Bill. The proposed amendments in this bill, Mr. Speaker, will definitely have far-reaching effects throughout the whole island portion and mainland portion of our province.

I can sylJll)athize with the honourable Member for Labrador North because, if these amendments to the bill are carried out, if they are passed in this House.this will have a detrimental effect to many sections of our province. 8832

December 20, 1974, Tape 2292, Page 4 -- apb Morning NQW, Mr. Speaker, we have so far been talking specifically about the ski-doo because I believe that these amendments will affect the operation of aki-doos more than any other vehicle that .the act may engross . The snowmobile, Mr. Speaker, is a new vehicle to Newfoundland.

Its primary purpose was for pleasure and many of our people, especially our young people, have found great pleasure in operating a ski-doo throughout our countrysides, In certain sections of our province it is also used as a means of transportation, Of course, Mr, S,>eaker, by using it as a trllnSportation means, the ski-doo has taken the ,>lace of, say on the Island portion of our province, the horse. On tbe Great Northern Peninsula and .in Labrador it has taken the place of the dog. Mr.

Speaker, back in 1935, I believe it was, the government of the day then felt it necessary to bring in regulations and legislat:f,on concerning dogs, which w,1s transportation at that time and what we are talking about now really, in a sense, is transportation. Mr. Speaker, as I look through the Dog Act I notice one spe~fic, important thing, Sir; that .the Act was brought forward in sections. You had one

section pertaining to the City of St. John's aJ,.one, another

section pertaining to the Avalon Peninsula, 88 33

,December 20, 1974 Tape No. 2293 NM - 1 and other sections pertaining to the rest of the island portion of our province and a specific

section pertaining to the Labrador oortion of our province. This, Mr. Speaker, was felt necessary because of the extensive use that was made of the dog at that time as a means of transportation. I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that at the present time the ski-doo and the all-terrain vehicles have become a means of transportation in sections of our province. In St. John's,n person who has a ski-doo T suspect it is mainly for pleasure and nothing else. In the p.reater portion of the island

section of our province it is for pleasure, it is for transportation and it is for industry. Many of our loggers today are usinp. the ski-doo for the transportation of logs out of the woods. As you go farther north in the island portion of our province and of course in Labrador.van find that it is during the winter months particularly, possibly the only means of transportation available in any one community. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I believe that The Motorized Snow Vehicles And All-Terrain Vehicles Act should be designed in such a way similiar to The Dog Act of 1935.

I believe if this were done that it would not encroach upon the freedom of the people who are of major concern especially to the people of Labrador. The vehicle itself, Mr. Speaker, the snowmobile, the ski-doo, or the all-terrain vehicle, I would submit to you that the standard of this vehicle is not what one would like to see and I speak particularly about the noise. All of these vehicles are much noisier than any motor vehicle on wheels or any other high powered vehicle. They are a nuisance and an irritation when used within the confines of a community, whether it be in a city or a small village.

If used on the roads they are a hazard and a danger and we have already had fatalities in Newfoundland. So, Mr. Speaker, inbedded in any legislation or any regulations that the department may bring forth, I certainly hope that they would set a set of standards for such vehicles so that such irritations would not exist in the future. 883.,.

December 20, 1974 Tape NO. 2293 NM - 2 Mr. Speaker, the ski-doo in particular on the island

section of our province is widely used throughout the winter months. Many times we find that it is wrongly used,narticularly during the cold season of our hunting periods. I believe it has been proven time and time again that a number of people misuse this vehicle, especially in wild life sections of our province. They have been used for poaching. They have been used for chasing animals. Mr. Speaker, this is very important.

Because as honourable members of this House realize, this time of the year and throughout the winter months, the moose populations of our province gather together in some drook of woods, usually in a fir drook. They stay within a small confined area. They even feed within this area. Any person who has walked through one of these areas can readily identify it because all the small trees have been eaten, everything is trampled down because possibly you get twenty, maybe thirty animals within what is commonly called a yard of moose.

The reason this expression is used is because you have a small area of moose and it resembles a yard, like a yard of cattle. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: ,, u N~ yard is not a measurement in this case. AN HON. MEMBER: Like a backyard. MR. THOMS: Like a backyard. Throughout our island province and in Labrador, Mr. Speaker, we have numerous yards of moose at this time of the year. MR. SIMMONS: You are learning. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. THOMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, when these moose are yarded up;as we commonly say, at this time the moose are yarded un.

There could be six inches of snow on the ground or there could be six feet. AN HON. MEMBER: In a vard of moose. MR. THOMS: And one yard of moose is correct. MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

Decemher 20, 1974 Tat1e No. 2293 ~j']lnMS: Mr. Speaker, the members opposite think that this is a real ioke. But this is a very serious matter, a very serious matter. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. THOMS: I am trying to teach the honourable gentlemen something. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Order please!

I am inclined to agree with the honourable member for Ronavista North, while some of the terminolop.v may be a little different to the honourable House. the Chair considers the princit1le of this bill to be a very important one and would request honourable members to my left to give the honourable member the honour which he deserves, to be heard in silence. MR. THOMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, the moose in our province, at this time of year and throughout the winter months,th~v vard up.

Now I know honourable gentlemen opposite do not understand this .. hut 1 am trying to teach them. If they were good attentive students they would learn something. Now, Mr. Speaker, while the moose are yarded up there could be from six inches of snow or there could be six feet of snow. Now if these moose are disturbed while there is a small amount of snow there is no real danger to the safety of them.

But if they are molested or chased or disturbed when five or six feet of snow exists on the ground these moose will travel from the yard,will depart and I will bet you that nine out of every ten of these moose will perish within twenty­ four hours. They will beat themsr.lve .s out running throup;h the heavy snow. I am sure if any honourable gentleman here has ever travelled our woods that they can find evidence of this such as l have. It is a good bill in a sense and it is not a good bill in another sense, and I will point out why it is not. So, Mr.

Speaker, we need rules and regulations to ensure that these animals during the winter months are not disturbed. Because if you realize durinr- the winter months. all of the animals are in poor condition because of the food supnly. It is not the same as it is in the summer and in the fall. The cows, or at least some of them, are pregnant, and chasinp, 883b

.. December 20, 1974 Tape No. 2293 NM - 4 these animals during this period is very detrimental to that animal. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, in this sense I wculd support any rules or regulations that would protect these animals, especially during this period in time. Now, Mr. Speaker, 8 8 3·1

pl{ - 1 t will aRree with some of the wonls the l'remi.er saicl when he soo lee ahout the all· terrain vehicles, ~•hen he sai.<l that manv of our area,;. lie d i1 not sneci.f1call tat~ hut t helieve he must have meant t he caribou 111arshes on the interio-r of out: nrovi.nce, when 1e must have at some t:lme or other !'lll'•' ,•hat ,,,ai. haoneni "" hecau!Se of the mi suse of mostlv ilmohi - cats over the caribou 11 arshes. twas on suc h a mai::sh onlv three month,; 11ro, l.fr. Sneaker, i>t Car:l.bou T.ake, and T was also on the marshes over a-round 'ount Pevton. 'Ir.

Sn=l·er . there are tracks in these ma-rshes that have hee used time and time a~ain hv amohi-cats. Thev are so ohv :i,ous ancl i;o well heaten rlo•m th11t vou ouJrl almost tliin someone was r;oinp to come al.onr . th!'. next day and i nstal.l street li11hts . 'fR. ARSllJ\I.l.: Woul<l the honourahle memh r JiJ,e to ad1ourn the ciel>ate it ls almost 1:r(} P •• ? Y e.c; 1-r. Sne;i !·er 1 ~1ould like to ad i ou.rn t h its debate . fR . Sl'EIIKFTI: Now that the honourable Hemher fo-r llonavista North "aR ad1nurned the <lehate I wi] nm call it l : nn P.H. and leave t he r.hai.r until 3: ll(l P .1 . thts afternoon.

S83o ..

Decemher 20, 1974 '!'he House resumed at 3,nn P.M. Hr. Speaker :ln the Chair. C'rder 1 please! Tape 22QS (Afternoon) PK - 1 T,Jhen we adjourned for lunch' the honourahle '1emher for Bonavista North was speaking and he may continue. ~'Ill. P. S. THOMS· Mr. Sneaker, as I was exnlaininl? to the honourable memheri,; of this flouse when we adjourned for dinner, I was more or less trving to educate them even thouP,h they were in a verv jovial mood ahout what you could consider the housing facilities that moose of our nrovince have dur:ln!? the w:lnter months. '1'r.

Speaker, the moose during the winter months - December, January, Fehruarv and most times during March - they group together in what is commonly known as '"Yards'". These yards consirt of very small areas onlv a counle or three hundred feet in diameter, in some cases. Th&. moose more or less rest, thev do not do anv travelling whatsoever. This, ••r. Snea~er, :Is because normallv of the deen snow that we are used to havinr, :In this province of ours. ~•r.

SPeaker, if we are to allow snm,'IJlohiles or all-terrain vehicles or any other veh:I cle to disturb these animals then what would normal.Iv happen :Is that these animals would he driven out :Into the deep snowJand after travelling under very severe conditions thev are raoidly exhausted,with very little food, they die verv shortly afer 1,Tithin a snan of hours, not days or weeks, hut within a span of hours. Therefore, ~•r. Snea1':er, if th:! s act and the regulations that were to follow were true then in this aspect of the legislation I would total.Iv aP,ree. Mr.

Speaker, I bel:leve, we have to define some of the words that are used :In the act. For examole, when we talk about huntfn,i; with sno11'1l1oh:lle, does this include the travelling from one's home to a hunting areas? And in the case of residents of Labrador, thev ma,, have to travel. fortv. fifty, sixty miles before thev can nossihly reach a wildlife area where they can hunt. In this

section of our province, Hr. Speaker, this may be the only means of transportation that these oeonle have at their disposal, not onlv in Labrador, Mr. Speaker. but also :l.n the northern

section of our province. 8839

December ?.O, 1°74 '!'ape ?.29.S (Afternoon) PK - ? ><r. Sueaker, if th:ls amendment or :lnrleed :lf this act encroaches unon the abil:ltv of any of the residents of this nrovince or limits the:lr ahilitv to travel, then, Hr. SneaJ,.er, I am totally against it. AN HON, >ffi>,fJ!ER: Hear; Hear! 'IR.

THOM~, In thjs aspect of this h:111,and when one consirlers it 1n this 115!.ht,it is rlefinitelv a had niece of lep;iRlat:lon as the Member for Labrador North has sa:ld, 'low, Mr, Sneaker, over this naRt five or six years we have w:I tnesserl R rapid decline of our Tvildlife throup;hout the island nort:lon of our nrovince and throup:hout I.ahrador, Tt iiras only a fe~,, years ago when the Wildlife Il:fvision founrl :It necessary to allow one hunter to hag two moose, :In one season, 1'his vas only five or six years ap,o, The moose population of our provh,ce T•'aS good.

Some officials at that time even stated that we had aun!l'oximatelv 4 3,nnn moose. It was ou:lte evident, Mr. Speaker, that we d1d have a good population of mooRe because along the 'l'rans-r.anada Jlighwav in any

section of the nrovince, one could easilv see a moose. I can travel from here to Gambo weekend after wee1°end and not see a moose, not even in the National Park. '!'hey have all but disappeared. It is only in the :Interior of our province now, Mr. Sneaker, that we have any significant nopulation of moose whatsoever. Even in the interior the uopulation seems to be declining year after vear. Mr. Sneaker, manv, of the ~od and Gun Clubs in our nrovince are verv concerned about this, not onlv about the moose hut all wildlife. Our rock patridge at the present time is down to the lowest ebb that it even has been.

Tt :Is only r:l.ght and T'roper that we should take steps in this Assembly to booster the l)Opulation of any of our wildlife :If we can. But, Mr, Speaker, while taking such steps we should not encroach or penalize the rights of any of our citizens with:ln this province. I feel that is why if this bill is passed, as I am sure it will be because the government have a huge ma_jority in this Hom,e - thirty- one votes to eight of us - I am sure they will vote for this bill, 'fr, Speaker, and that this will be implemented.

necem~er 2~. 1°74 Tape 2295 (Aft .ernoon) PK - 3 Under the 1>rouosed hill before this House at the present tilllf!, rules and regulations can be i111J)lemented that would certainly encroach ui,on the rights of many of our cith:ens, This, Mr. Speaker. I bel:l.eve, is wrong. I do not believe that we should at all cherish the tho11ght of T>assin!!; this bill. Mr. Sneaker, the whole act; The -fotorized Snow Vehicles and All-Terrain Vehicles Act, is .designed c01Jl1)1etely wronP- because if ever tl-ere was a case in Newfoundland where you have to make cheese of one a:nd chalk of the other this is the case.

We cannot i!n"Plement legfslat:f .on and rules a:nd regulat:I ons pertaining to these vehicles for the T>eonle of the Avalon Penim1ula and apply the same rules and rep.ulaUons in Northern Newfoundland and in Labrador. It is fot'Po·ssible to do it. It is unfair to do it. It is undemocratic to do it. 8841

December 20, 1974 Tape no. 2296 Page 1 - MW Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I urge the minister to get the support of the government so that he can withdraw this bill. AN HON. MEMJIER: (Inaudible) • MR. THOMS: It should be. AN HON. MEMBER: All of it? MR. THOMS: All of it. The bill should be withdrawn. Mr. Speaker, the minister and his officials should take very serious consideration and if necessary revamp the whole bill itself.

I claim that the act should be designed in certain sections so that rules and regulations can be drawn up to control these vehicles within the Avalon Peninsula and another set for the greater pGetion of our province and maybe another set for the Great Northern Peninsula and also a part dealing with Labrador. Mr. Speaker, we have here two extremes. I am sure on the Avalon Peninsula the only reason a person will purchase one of these vehicles is for the purpose of recreation and that is good. They should be allowed to purchase these vehicles and to enjoy the hours in the outdoor•. a good sign. I agree with this.

That is good. It is Mr. Speaker, we should have certain rules and regulations pertaining to the Avalon Peninsula because nowhere on the Avalon Peninsula will it be necessary to use a ski-doo as a means of transportation to and from schools, to and from your work. If you use a ski-doo on the Avalon Peninsula, it is used specifically for recreation. Then, Mr. Speaker, if you go to the larger portion of our province, that is the island portion, you will find that the ski-doo is used not only for pleasure but it is also used for a means of transportation. It is also used in ind1111try. In the past, Mr.

Speaker, our people who worked in the woods used the horse to pull out logs. Now the ski-doo is replacing the horse and in many cases it is even replacing the tractor because it is much faster. It is more mobile than the tractor. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, we are going to have to have a different set of rules and regulations or we 8 84,~

December 20, 1974 Tape no. 2296 Page should have a specific

section of the act set aside for this area of the province. The same thing, Mr, Speaker, would apply 2 to the Great Northern Peainsula. Only I am sure that the times and the dates would have to be different in this

section of the province than they would be in the other two. Mr. Speaker, I believe it is entirely necessary to have a special

section of the act set aside for Labrador. Here the vehicle is used 1110re extensively for transportation while it is used also by certain areas as a recreational facility. Transportation, Mr, Speaker, in Labrador is nil. In years gone by the dog was the only means of transportation for the people of Labrador. The aircraft was there for quite a number of years but it was never used to the extent that the dog was. Today the ski-doo is taking the place of the dog. Therefore, I believe we should have a special

section of the act, special rules and regulations for the Labrador

section of our province. Mr. Speaker, I believe the minister should give this some very serious thought. I note, Mr. Speaker, that this act was passed in 1973. I am wondering why the rules and regulations were not drafted and why they were not implemented before now. We have had ample time to do so. If they were important as I believe the minister himself said, why was not this piece of legislation the first before this honourable House when it opened some three weeks ago? Because, Mr.

Speaker, in my opinion, this is the 1110st important piece of legislation that we have discussed this fall in this honourable House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I once again plead with the minister and ask him to get the support of his other colleagues and have this piece of legislation withdrawn because it is a bad piece of legislation. Have it withdrawn and consult with his officials and at the same time I believe he and his officials should consult with other independent 884J

December 20, 1974 Tape no. Page 3 people across this province so that a proper set of rules and regulations can be drawn up, a proper act can be brought before this House and one that would not encroach upon our people at this time. Mr. Speaker, I trust that the honourable minister will give this some serious consideration. I trust that he will see fit to act. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, I find it incredible to hear the honourable gentleman ask that this bill be withdrawn, After listening to a fair amount or most of his speech and most of the points he raised, they all seem to add up to the necessity for this bill. He pointed out before lunch of the danger with regards to ski-docs and snowmobiles or what have you. He pointed out to some detail about the danger to wildlife of harassing and chasing wildlife and the necessity for control. Mr. Speaker, this is really what this bill proposes to do.and that is to control and make sure that the wildlife is protected in this province.

I am at a loss to follow the honourable gentleman when he now suggests that we should withdraw the bill. I can agree with him. He said on the one hand that this is a very important subject, Certainly, it is. He mentions in some detail about the moose population and I can give him some figures, Mr. Speaker, which certainly do not bear out with what he says. There are approximately 40,000 moose in the province today or at least there were yesterday. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HICKEY: MR. WOODWARD: MR. HICKEY: How many, 40,000? '10,000. How many moose are there in Labrador? How many are there in Labrador?

I have not counted the ones from Labrador separately so I will have to take that under advisement. Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of people under the misconception with regards to the moose population that

December 20, 1974 Tape 2297 (Afternoon) PK - 1 aonrox1mately seven to ten years ago there were something close to 80,000 moose in the province as comoared to an approximate figure given at the time of 40,000. The neoole who are most familiar and ~ho are nrofessional in wildlife , my staff advise me that the estimate at the time was way off, close to fiftv ner cent, and instead of the nonulation as quoted at that time of being 40,000, or hetween 41'),000 and .50,onn,it was more like 80,000. So that in effect over the years it is trne to some extent to say that the moose pooulation has decreased . AN HON.

MEMBF.R: Inaudible. MR . PICKEY: But, Mr. Speaker, this is one of the main justifications for the licencinF; system that this admi'.nistration put into effect. It is one of the main .1ustification>l for the increase in the licence to nonresidents. AN HON. ME?-IBBR: Decreased. MR. HICKEY: Decreased? AN HON. l'fF'.1-ffiF.R: Decreased. im. HICKEY: Increased. An increase in the licence fee? An increase in the licence fee and a decrease in the number of licences? All, Mr. Speaker, all directed to protect and to conserve the moose nopulation. The caribmu is estimated at approximately 20,000.

The black hear, I am told, is on the increase and like some other species that we know of is becoming a hit of a nuisance. HON. MW-1BERS: Inaudible. "1R. flir:KEY: --- --- l"r. Sneaker, why would anvone suggest or think that I was referring to anyone in this honourable House. Of course not. I would not dare suggest that, Mr. Speaker, especially with my record which I am not reallv nroud of, of having t,;.•o sojourns from this just Chamber, I would dare not suggest that anyone in this Chamber ,;•as a nuisance . 'ffi. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, nlease!

Just so that honourable memhers are not even misled into irrelevancies that - AN HON. !iEMBERS: Inaudible. T-IR. SPEAKER (STAGG): I would suggest the honourable member be relevant. 884b

necember ~n 1a74 Tane 27°7 (Afternoon) PK - ? Thank you, Your Honour, I want to get hack to the hill before the House but J: was nr.omoted to give some of thoi,e figures hecause my honourable friend for ionavista ~orth exnressecl some concern and indee<l he made some statements wl0 ich 'he thought ,.,ere correct but which are reallv not. 'l'he nolar hear, T ,im to]d. i,s :i1mns:t ext:!nct, very, very few and it is on the wav out.

"ow, ''r. -;..,ea]·r-,~. to get to the bill.I certa:1 .nly add my suoport to this rill for " number of reasons, one heing the fact th,it with mv honourable collea~ue, the }finister of Trammortation and r.ommun:! cat:! ons who now has resnonsibility for it, Thad the nleasure of havinp. some :!~nut Rnd <lo1ng some work with regards to th:l.s h:1.11 and reachinp- the stage ~,here i.t is todav. I can say withoutanv fear of contrat'iction, T sunnose . Mr.

Spea~·er, :! t is renea t:l.ng real ].v because the Hon. the Prem:! er to my m:!nd laid at rest any fet1rs that honourable gentlet11en might have with regards to snecial consideration for Ole neonle of Labrador who used the vehicles covered in this bill, for certainly nurnoses other than recreation or imleecl survival. T Pish to address myse]f to this ouestion for a few moments ~r.

Speaker, by point:lnp. out to the House that one of the reasons, and th:ls is in answer to a question raiserl by my fr:!.end, the "'ern1'er for Bonavista North 1when he sav!':, r,,hv were not the reii;ulat:!ons made 'hefore now? nne of the reasons I would sur,gest to h:11'1 1!': indeed the fact t1iat this administration acknowle<lpes the snecial conditions and the snecial s:l.tuation 1n I..ahrarlor. I can recall, ~r. Sneaker, on at least three occasions heinp. quest:loned in this House a1'out those regulations and this hill.

"v ans~,er was that on a]] occasions it was under consideration, draft regulations had heen <leveloned and that we were not nrenared to F'.O fonTard at that nart:lcular time. T am sure the Mell'her for La1'rador South can rear me out ,-Then I sav this 1,ecause he requesten a cooy of suggested regulations and he ,-,as nrov1ned with those re~ulati.ons and :lndeen he came b!lcl, witry a number of suggest:! nns ,,rh:!ch 1 might arlc1 were tal,en into comdnerat1.on and jncludecl, 884u

December 2n, 1°74 Tape 2297 (Afternoon) So, Mr. Speaker, there has been ample time. While I am afra1d that there has not been the kind of inPut that we exnected and that we want because 1as the Premier said this morning, this PK - 3 1s a very important area and the govermnent wish and are desirous of bein!!; sure th.at the nroner kind of regulations are developed and so on, Even, Mr.

Speaker, when they are and even when they are brought before this House, I thin],- it :f.s fair to sav that in dealing with this kind of a comnlex sub1ect those rep;ulations when they are nroclaimed will indeed be changed before too long and before they are in effect too lonp:. It is very difficult to ]egislate or to regulate this kind of a situation. Mr. Sneaker, the necessity for this kind of legislation surelv one cannot ouarrel with for a number of reasons. The snowmobile; for example, the small snowmobile that is used today. In this province there have l--een. some accidents.

I 1->eBeve there have been a couple of fatalit1-es, I am not ouite sure of the number, but at least a couple. In the Province of Ouebec, Mr. Speaker, there has been an astronomical amount of accidents, a great number of fatal accidents so much so that that orovince has a very well developed system of control, of oolicing, of licencing, and that province, Mr. Speaker., has spent a nrettv fair amount of money in developing this nacka11;e for the general public. I have a booklet, for example, from that nrovince which outlines the safetv regulations, safety measures, a great deal of information on snowmob11es ..

It outlines the areas where they may he used, and not only in terms of control and licenc1nr;, Hr. Speaker, r-ut that province has a]so spent a considerable amount of money in develoPing areas, trails and areas where those vehicles may be used and may be used in safetv. Tt is also, Mr. Spea1,er, verv important that we concern ourselves and we address ourselves to the question of age in terms of the oneration of the small ski-doo or snowmobile. Children, actual children ,today are operating those vehicles. Mr. Sneaker, it is all the more reason - -why there has to be some kind of control and in some instances, Hr.

Speaker, it has to he rigid control. There has to be the lcitld of

December 20, 1974 Tape 2297 (Afternoon) PK - 4 safety measures developed and those measures, Mr. Speaker, must be well nublicized so that the general public are aware o.f them. It is also very important that this province develop the areas where those vehi_cles may be used. This to my mind, Sir, is one of the reasons why I consider this nieee of leitislation and this bill by this government one of the most progressive and forward steps, certain'lly another one of them as taken by this administration because it involves so many neople. It iTivolves actual lives. It has been said so many times, Mr. Speaker, that savinit one life 8848 •·

December 20, 1974 Tape no. 2298 Page 1 - MW would Justify any kind of an expenditure no matter what or how much it is. The Province of Quebec, Mr. Speaker, to illustrate a little further how well developed and how well organized they are in this very vital area, they have developed a map in which they outline the trails. It is similar to a road map. One interested in using the ski-doo or small snowmobile for recreational purposes must only pick up this map and they know where they can go; they know where the trails are ,and beyond those areas it is unlawful to use those vehicles, I am not suggesting, Mr.

Speaker, that we have to move quickly to attain this kind of level of development at this particular time. I am suggesting, Sir, that I think this is what we have to look for a little bit down the road so that we have thi.s area developed in a very systematic way as has the Province of Quebec. Because, Mr. Speaker, it is too late when children are killed or when people are killed, adults or what have you.

As has already been indicated in this debate, I have had the occasion of driving along the highway eight o'clock in the night only to find that there is one light collling towards you, You thi.nk it is a car with one light, You know nothing until it cuts across you,maybe a dozen or two dozen car lengths ahead of you, literally cvussing the highway. I have seen this, Mr. Speaker, although it is probably unbelievable for honourable members to appreciate this, happen on the Trass Canada Highway at eight o'clock in the evening. Mr.

Speaker, if there were no other reason for this legislation coming before the House but purely and only the safety factor surely that in itself is sufficient justification for bringing it here. As I said, I was involved to some extent as a former Minister of Transportation and Conmunications. Now in my portfolio my,department will be charged with the responsibility of the policing and the control of the regulations when they are presented to the House, Mr, Speaker, I have no doubtB in my mind, no fears about the people of Labrador not being well taken care of with regards 8849

December 20, 1974, Tape no. 229!l Page 2 to any regulations that are made under this bill. As I have said, the fact that it has not come before this House before is good proof that this administration is very, very conscious of the importance of those vehicles to the people of Labrador. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. RICKEY: No more than I have any fear, Mr. Speaker, of those regulations offending to any great degree the people who live on the island, be it the people who use the all-terrain vehicle or the small snowmobile.

As has already been indicated, this legislation really is to control those people and to prevent the destruction of wildlife, either indirectly or directly, to protect the environment, the habitat and the Yegetation because if we do not do that - and my friend from Bonavista North who mentioned a decrease in the moose population - there will be a much further decrease if we allow our environment to be destroyed as it is being destroyed right now, Mr. Speaker, I have much pleasure in supporting this bill.

I see no reason for any changes and certainly no fear that any honourable member should have with regard to how it would adversely affect any of his constituents. ~-=-~PEAKER: The honourable the Member for Labrador South: MR. M.MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, this is one of those bills which I have particularly warm feelings for, having been involved from the very early stages of the original act itself and the formulation thereof. I should like to put on record, Sir, I think, that it deserves to be noted where credit is due. At the very early stage the formulation of that which is now

an act, they were working on the bill, the honourable minister who just spoke, who was responsible at that time, did get in touch with me and asked for~ recommendations. I made numerous recommendations and the bill when it was presented incorporated all of those recommendations. It is indicative of the kind of sensitivity which that honourable gentleman has toward our nroblems in the north. I would like him to know that we appreciate that. The act as it stands has a long ways to go, as he said, but we are in no particular hurry because the problem has not reached

December 20, 1974 Tape no, 2298 Page 3 those crisis proportions which it has in the Province of Quebec. There is hardly, I think, a more destnictive force to be turned loose on the wilderness than