Manitoba Hansard — 29 May 1989 (Sitting 7A, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-7a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

I • LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 29, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PRO CEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speak er, I wou ld lik e to table the Annua l Report for Education ending Ma rch 31, 19 88. Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Natural Resources Development Act): Mr. Speaker , I wou ld like to table the report of Chan nel Area Log gers, Ltd. , 19 87-88, and also Moose Lake Loggers, Ltd. for '87-88, as wel l, annual report. Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): I would li ke to table the report of the Ma ni toba Beef Com mi ssion , 19 87-88; the report of the Man itoba Agricu ltur al Credit Corporation, '87-88; the Man itoba Mediation Board , 19 88; the Man itoba Crop Insu rance Corporat ion, '87-88; Farm Lands Ownership Board, '87- 88; Milk Prices Review Com mission, '87-88; and a report to the Leg islatur e on The Agricultural Producers Funding Act, dated June, 19 89. Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I am plea sed to table the Ann ual Report , 19 87-88, for the Manitoba Arts Cou ncil; the Annual Report , 19 87-88, for the Manitoba lnter cu ltural Cou ncil; the Annual Report for the Legisla ti ve Li bra ry, 19 87-88; and the Ann ual Report, 19 87-88, for the Man itoba Centen nial Centre Corporat ion. INTRODU CTION OF BILLS BILL NO. 10-THE BEVERAGE CON TAINER ACT Mr. Gilles Roch (Springfield) intr oduced, by leave, Bill No . 10 , The Beverage Con tai ner Act;

Loi sur les contenants de boiss ons. MOTION presented. * (13 35) Mr. Roch: To make a few brie f remarks, the pu rpose and in tent of this Bill is essen tially to giv e an inc ent ive for people to keep, especially in the rural areas, all of Man itoba li tter free. It is essentiall y an envir on mental Bill and adds to the whole in tent of Gover nm ents everywhere into further recycling and encourag ing a clean envir on ment. I will get in to more de tails when the Bill comes up for reading in principl e. Thank you . QUEST ION put, MOTION carried. 149 BILL NO. 19-THE GROUND WATER AND WATER WELL AMENDMENT ACT Hon.

Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources) intr oduced, by leave, Bill No. 19, The Ground Water and Water Well Amendment Act; Loi mo difiant la

Loi sur les eaux souterr aines et les puits. ANNOUNCEM EN T Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral que stions, I wou ld lik e to di rect Honourable Mem bers' attention to the presenc e at the Ta ble here today wh ere we have Patricia Cha ychuk-F itzpa trick, who has been appoi nted Clerk of Com mi ttees to replace Ja net Su mmers, who has been appoint ed Mem bers' Benefits Officer. I am sure all Honourable Mem bers wou ld want to welcome her to the staff of the Assem bly . INTRODU CTION OF GUESTS Mr.

Speaker: Also with us this afternoon, in the Sp eaker's gall ery, we ha ve with us today Li nda Haverstock who is the Leader of the Li beral Party in Sa ska tchew an. On behalf of all Honourable Mem bers, we welcome you here this afterno on. Als o with us this afternoon, seated in the public gall ery, from the Bertrun E. Gla vin Elemen tary School , ni nety Grade 5 stud ents und er the direction of Mrs. Wenden and Mrs. Podolsky. This school is located in the cons tituenc y of the Honourable Mem ber for Con cordia (Mr. Doer). On behalf of all Honourable Memb ers, we welcome you here this afternoon .

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Silica-Sand Plant Provincial Investment Mrs . Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , Dow Corn ing has appl ied for a land -us e perm it to construct a silica-sand research facil ity on the Manit oba Hydro property in East Sel kirk, the second phase of its project. Taxpayers have already contributed a su bstantial sum toward the fi rst phase of this project. The Min ister of Energy and Mi nes (Mr. Neufeld) ha s indi cated tha t the Government wou ld become a partner in the second ph ase.

While we all supp ort new industry in this province and hope tha t the Dow Corn ing project will ma terial ize and meet all of our expectat ions, we mus t be vigilant with respect to how tax dol lars are used in attracting new indust ry. My que stion to the Min ister of Energy and Mi nes, how much does his Government expect to inv est in Ph ase 2 of the project, and un der wha t terms and conditions?

Monday, May 29, 1989 Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speak er, the arrangement on Phase 1 was for the pr ovincial and federal Go vernment to in vest app roximately 25 perce nt of the total cost. The arrangements for Pha se 2 are being neg otiated on the same basis. The total cost is expected to be somewhere between $10 million and $15 million. The Dow Corning have announc ed in their news release this morning that they expect the cost to be in the neig hb ourhood of $10 milli on.

The provincial Governm ent and the federal Government are nego tiati ng with Dow Corning, and the involv ement by the Manito ba Government is expected to be in the neig hb ourho od of 25 percent. Revenue Source Mrs .. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a supplement11ry question to the Minister of Energy and Min es, can he confirm to the House today if the federal Government has guaranteed any aspect or any funds to this particul ar project? * (1 340) Hon .. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr.

Spe11ker, the neg otiations are in process, and I do not thi nk it is the proper place in the House to neg otiate this matter publicly. As far as we are con cerned at the moment, the federal Government will participate in the same manner as the y have in the first phase of the project . Mrs . Carstairs: Knowing the way in which Manitoba has been tr eated by the federal Government on numerous projects, including a decl ine in funds for the Western Diversification Fund, from what source of revenue does he expect the funds from the federal Government to come for the devel opment of this particular project ? Mr.

Neufeld: I do not presume to speak for the federal Government and indi cate the source from which the y are going to get the monies to in vest in the project. It is my expectation and the expe ctation of this Government tha t funds will be available for Ph ase 2 of the project . Mr s. Carstairs: The expectations of the federal Govern ment. have not resulted in actual cash dol lars to the Province of Manitoba, and we look only to Hudson Bay Mining and Sm elting for an indi cation of their lack of wil lingne ss to help to contr ibute to Manitoba. Manitoba Hydro Preferential Rates Mrs .

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a new question to the same Mini ster, Mr. Speaker, from past experience, we kn ow that the Government has no clearly defined policy with respect to hyd ro rates it is prepared to offer industries who express an interest in setting up in this province. Can the Mini ster of Energy and Mines (Mr . Neufeld) tell us, what rate has he set with Dow Corning tor preferent ial hydro rates, and how low a price is he prepared to give them our power for? 150 Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Contr ary to what the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s.

Carstairs) has just said, we have a very clearly defined policy on hydro rates. The Dow Corning Company have asked, as it was indicated in the press, for a 20-year agreement as to hydro rates. We are neg otiating on the published rates on the basis of 19 92, anticipa ted rates of 19 92. The re will be an escalation clause which will approximate inflation. The final agreement with Dow Corning has not yet been reached but the basis of our discussions are on the published rates for high hydro users in Manitoba. Silica-Sand Plant Negotiation Process Mrs .

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a question to the First Mini ster, can the First Minister (Mr . Fil mon) tell the House today if he has entered into the neg otiati ons with the federal Government in order to gua rantee their contrib ution to this particular project ? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I know that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) does not in any way give any re spons ib ility to any of her col leagues so she would not understand this process.

Th e fact of the ma tter is that Mi nisters and depart ments are responsible for the things that they have been charged with the responsibili ty for. They go out and they negotiate, and the Manitoba Energy Authority has been designated by the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr . Neufeld) to enter into this kind of negotiation to come to an agreement between the Government of Canada, Dow Corning and ourselves. That process of negotiation is under way.

We have every reason to beli eve it will result in the same conclus ion as the riegotiations for Pha se 1 did, and that is that there will be a fruitful agreement that will be beneficial to all people, Manitobans, Manitoba Hydro. We will get jobs, we will get invest ment and all tho se things. * (13 45) I think what we should be asking the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) is, is she against a major investment in the Province of Manitoba?

Is she against a project that, if it comes to fruition, will result in more than 200 jobs, in major, major in vestment, job creation activity in this province and good economic benefit ? Why are the y against every development decision that thi s Govern ment takes? Why are they against Repap , 400 jobs, a billion dol lars of investment? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Filmon: Why are they against Dow Corning? Why are the y against the developing of . . .. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Mrs.

Carstairs: But you know, the laissez-faire attitude which this particular Minister has with his first cousins in Ottawa has resulted in nothing but cuts to Manitoba.

Monday, May 29, 1989 Silica-Sand Plant Environmental Impact Study Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): We want to kno w today, Mr. Speaker, from the Minister of the Environm ent (Mr . Cummings) if this laissez-faire attitude is also going to extend to the devolution and development of this particular plant. Will the Minister tell us today if he will be cond ucting an env ironm ntal im pact study to determine what env ironmental impli cations of the silicone plant will exist, and also the effects of strip minin g? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, first of all, we have not yet received a proposal to the department regarding thi s devel opment, but I can tell you that the department has been involv ed with the corp oration in help ing to establish guideli nes and criteria, along with the local planning district on site selectio n. When a pr opos al comes forward , the corporation has already indicated that they are prepared to fully cooperate with all environmenta l re gula tions. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): We will be watching that announc ement to the Mini ster.

If we are going to put $10 million worth of Govern ment mone y in that project, Mr. Speaker, we want $10 million worth of equi ty, both in terms of the project and $10 million worth of eq uity in terms of the tech nol ogy. Cardiac Care Waitinq Period Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Now, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard). We were raising issues last week with the Government and the Premi er (Mr .

Fil mon) to no avail in terms of the serious issues in the Department of Health on the funding situation and a num ber of health care facilities, the lack of any decisions, the administrative situation in the Department of Health. . Again this weekend, we have had our worst fears confirmed with publicly revealed informa tion, as I am sure the Minister of Health is aware, that the waiting list for cardiac surgery has doubled in the last year since May, Mr.

Speaker, and it is causing serious problems for the del ivery of health care in this province and serious problems for the families who have to go through the trauma of waiting for the se situations. I would ask the Mini ster to describe to the House and explain to the House the situation on this serious health care issue, and wha t action he and his Go ve rn ment are doing about the ad minis tra tive situation in the Department of Health affecting patients in Manitoba. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr . Speaker, I am pleased the Hono urable Leader of the Second Opposition (Mr .

Doer) has posed this question. The allega tions made by Dr. Parr ott on Friday are essentially the same alle gations that were made in late 151 Decem ber, early Janu ary, and th ose allegatio ns were not supported by the adminisration of the Health Scien ces Centre in December, early Janu ary, nor are they supported by the admini stration of the Health Scien ces Centre today. But, Mr. Speaker, when tho se alle gations were made early this year, I took the situation very seriously, and this Government took the situation very seriously.

As a result, we have in place a Cardiac Care Committee which is headed by a prominent physician in Winnipeg , who is not directly associated in his medical discipline with cardiac care. The mandate of that Cardiac Care Committee is to investigate the allegations of waiting lists and deaths on waiting lists that the surgeon has made, which have not been confirmed by the administration of the hospital, to examine the role of two open-heart surgery programs between the two teaching hospitals, and to find ways in which Manitobans can be better served within the open-heart surgery program of Manitoba. Mr .

Sp eak er, tha t Card iac Care Com mittee is function al, is operating, and is inv iting participation of all physicians, including Dr. Parrott. * (13 50) Health Care Administration Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): We have confirmed that the waiting period of time was six to eight weeks in St.

Boni face and 12 weeks with the Health Sciences Centre in Winnipeg in '87, the dates that the Minister quotes, early '88. ltnas now doubled and our informa tion from nurses in the area indi cates that Manitoba has indeed had the waiting period doubled, putting many, many patients and families in a very serious situation . Last Thu rsday, I tabled in this House and I will retable in this House a copy of the budget of the Health Sciences Centre which indi cates an $8 million shortfall. It is labelled, "inadeq uate available funds" by the administration itself. I would ask the Mini ster of Health (Mr .

Orchard) wha t is he going to do about the administrative situation where they do not kno w th eir existing budget. There is a shortfall in the cardi ac area, and people and families in Manitoba have been put in trauma by the Minister's lack of action in this very im portant area. Hon. Donald Orchard (M inister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate again my honourable friend 's questioning because one of the pieces of inf orm�tion he did not put on the record is tha t at the St. Boni .ace program, the waiting list, the time for surgery h.!iS remained relatively stable over the last numb er of years.

Only at the He alth Sc iences Centre ha s this circumstance developed . That is one of the issues we wish to ha ve in vestig ated by the Card iac Care Committee. My honou rable fri end, the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer), wishes to have his cake

Monday, May 29, 1989 and he wishes to eat it too, because if he accedes to the argument that six people, as alleged by Dr. Par rott , have died whilst awaiting open-heart surgery in 19 88, then surely my honourable frien d with the New Democratic Party must assume blame for one-third of th ose because they were Government for one-third. Second ly, because they have said tha t our Budget last year was essentially their Budget with our Minister of Financ e's (Mr . Man ness) name on it, then they must assume responsibi lity for all the deaths. Mr.

Speaker, I have told you and tried to explain to the House in Januar y, as well as today, that the hospitals disassociate thems elves with the statements made by the surgeon, including the prevalence of deaths on the waiting list. If my honourable friend wants to get into th ose indi vidual cases, I am prepared to do that. Cardiac Care Waiting Period Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we did not allege any deaths to this Minister of Health (Mr .

Orchard), but we will alle ge and we will be able to support the fact when we were in Government the waiting list was half as much as it is now. When we were in Government, we had the shortest waiting lists of any province and of any Depart ment of Health in Canada, which is really seriously at risk with this Mini ster. My question to the Minister is, he just quoted St. Boni face Hospital. We have just become aware thi s morning and I have written the Minister just coincidental to thi s morni ng's information from a patient, a person named Mr.

Les Childs from Thompson, Manito ba, who had to wait nine months, was delayed th ree times to go into the St. Boni face Hospital for cardi ac surgery. My question is to the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard). Will he do something about the situation at the Health Scien ces Centre and also the St. Boni face Hospital with the information we have just provided? An Honourable Member: Hear, hear! Hon . Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr .

Speaker, I have exactly explained to my honourable friend who chooses not to listen that inde ed we have struck a Cardi ac Care Com mittee headed by a prominent Wi nn ipeg phy sicia n.- {Inter jectio n) -My honour able friends in the NOP now would probably suggest backing up the Brin ks truck. An Honourable Member: Wha t about the $2 million the y need ? Mr. Orchard: One of my honourable friends in the New Democ ratic Party is now saying, what about the $2 mil lion they need. Not even the Cardiac Care Committee is able to indicate whether that would be an appropriate use of resource.

Surely my honourable friends would want considered decisions made in cardiac care because we are rather unique in Manitoba in that we have two programs operating at two teaching hospitals. The one at St. 152 Boni face does approximately 450 procedures per year. The other does approximately 200 per year. The waiting list at one has doubled , at the Health Sciences Centre, over the last few months, while St. Boni face has remained relatively stable. I think th ose are questions that deserve ans wers, and we are seeking tho se answers.

In the meantime, we wil l tr ust to the professional judg ment of physicians to determine the appropriate scheduling of open-heart surgery and not leave that up to the Mem bers of the Opp osition. * (13 55) An Honourable Member: Hear, hear! Health Sciences Centre Budget Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this Minister has com mittees, it has advisory task forces, it has every little fluffy word in the book for not doing anything about the health care system in thi s province. My question to the Mini ster of Health (Mr .

Orchard), why does he not deal with the budget at the Health Sciences Centre that is below infla tion rig ht no w, which is label led by their admi nistration to be inadeq uate in terms of the funding for the patients of Manitoba? Wha t is he going to do about the deteriorating health care system in this province in terms of his admin istrati on, and deliver a budget to tha t facility tha t is at least equal to the challenge in the health care financing that it deserves to meet the patient need of Manitoba? Hon . Donald Orchard (M inister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I reject the hypocrisy of the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr . Doer). You cannot say tha t the infla tion rate- Mr. Speaker: Order , pl ease; ord er, pl ease . The Honourable Mem ber for Thom pson (Mr. Ashton), on a point of order. · Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I realize we are now entering the third week of this Session. I thought we have done rather well in terms of avoiding some of the excesses in terms of unparliamentary langua ge tha t we saw from certain Mem bers, particularly this Mem ber, last Session.

I do believe that the statement about hypocrisy was unparliamenta ry. It is on both our lists, both prohib ited and unprohi bited , but I think the intent of the Mini ster was unparli amentar y, not in keeping with the decorum that we seem to have managed to been able to maintain in the House thus far this Session. I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, to call the Minister of Healt h (Mr . Orchard) to order so tha t we can at least attempt to mainta in that decorum. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please.

As the Honou rable Mem ber has quite aptly pointed out to all Honourable Mem bers of the Chamber tha t the word does show up on both lists, unparliamentary and parliamentar y. As I have said previously, we are not at a tea party, and I would ask the Honourable Mem bers to choose and pick their words wisely.

Monday, May 29, 1989 Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the New Democ ratic Party (Mr . Doer) has said that the level of inc rease to the Health Sciences Centre is below the rate of infla tion. That is false. It is approximately double the rate of last year's infl ation. Secondly, my honour able friend cannot have it both ways. If the difficulties at the Health Sciences Centre have emerged because of lack of funding, then he cannot claim that last year 's budg et, hence funding to the Health Sciences Centre, was simply a rubber stamp of what the NOP were going to do.

The health care system is under a better mana gement system than it ever has been, and I take credit for that, as my col leagues in Government take credit for that and reject the kind of out-of-context, untrue, hypocritical . . .. Cardiac Care Waiting Period Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, the waiting period for all su rgical procedures in Manitoba hospitals is continuing to inc rease and health care professionals are leaving as a symptom of a do-nothing syndrome created by this Minister and this First Mini ster (Mr . Fil mon).

There are 90 patients at the Health Sciences Centre waiting for eig ht months for by-pass surgery. For them , the waiting period amounts to an open-ended death certificate. Can the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) tell us why the waiting period for by-pass surgery has doubled under his rule? Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Hon . Donald Orchard (M inister of Health): Mr. Speak er, if I und erstood my honour able frien d's question, I cannot confirm, as he alleges, that the waiting list is now eight months for 90 patients. I simply do not know whether that is factual or not.

I do not believe that to be the case. However, I will investigate that alle gation by my honour able frien d. Seco nd ly, Mr. Sp eak er, my honour able friend is wanting to know what is causing an incr ease in the waiting list at the Health Sciences Centr e when the St. Boni face waiting list has remained relatively stable over the same period of time. That is exactly what we are attempt ing to come to grips with.

I reiterate again, and I canno t reiterate it often enough, that the statements made by the phy sician at the Health Scien ces Centre are not backed up by the admini stration of the Health Sciences Centre. So when you have circumstances where the waiting list has grown and the physician is res pon sible for tha t wait ing li st, it needs serio us inv estigati on. We intend to do that. That is in process now, as it was last month with the Cardiac Care Committee, because tho se are questions that need to be answered. • (14 00) Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speak er, on Septem ber 2, 19 88, the Mini ster of Health (Mr .

Orchard) said tha t the waiting period was caused by summer closures. The Tory summer is almo st one year old. My question is, can the Minister of Health tell us today what step he will 153 take now, and not setting up too many com mittees, what steps he will take today so that the se patients do not have to wait for eight months? Does he have any plans today or not? Mr. Orchard: There are steps in place rig ht now to attempt to alle viate the problem at Health Sciences Centre.

But my honour able friend surely must want to rely on the professional integ rity of tho se physicians who are deciding who receives the open-heart surgical procedure. Now, Mr. Speaker, I cannot determine which person ought to be advanced to the emergenc y list and receive surgery. That is the job of the admitting physician and tha t is done so that people whose circumstanc es change whilst on the waiting list wil l receive appropr iate care.

I want to offer to my honourable friend just a couple of pieces of informa tion so tha t he knows that the hospital is attempting to come to grips with thi s issue in a reasoned fashion. The Health Scien ces Centre wishes to point out-and this was in Janua ry when the iden tical issue was raised by the same surgeon. They said, No. 1, it is very difficult for any doctor to establish the relative risk of any patient on a waiting list, but that is their job, Mr. Speaker, and a tough one it is.

It said, it is not possible to have no waiting list service because patients need to be prepared medical ly for the surgery and need also to consider the impli cation of surgery on themselv es and their famili es. Ther e are two more points, Mr Speaker, that I think are im portant to the discussions. Mr. Speaker : Ord er, ple ase. I wil l remind the Honourable Minister tha t answers to questions should be as brief as possible. Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House leader): Mr. Speaker, I was wondering if the Minister would table that document.

An Honourable Member: I think he should have anyway, tha t he read from. Mr. Orchard: There is no rule in the House that says I have to table speaking notes, Mr. Speaker, and I wish the Mem ber would learn the rules. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Thom pson (Mr . Ashton), on a point of order. Mr. Ashton: On the point of order, the Mini ster made it quite clear he was reading from a document and the standard pr actice in the Ho use is to table such documents.

He made no reference to speaking notes, and I think it is only common courtesy to Mem bers of the Legislature who have sat patiently through the Minister 's rather lengthy answers for him to at least table the document . Mr. Speaker : Or der , ple ase; order , pl ease. The Honour able Government House Leader (Mr. McCrae), on the same point of order. Hon. James Mccrae (Gov ernment House leader): Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the Honourable

Monday, May 29, 1989 Mem ber for Thompson, the House Leader for the third Op position Party (Mr . Ashton) goes a little too far when he asks Mem bers on the Government's side to table th eir own speaking notes. I mean, a lot of us ha ve br iefing books in front of us. Is tha t what he is asking for? I mean , at some point, we do get to the point of being ridiculous in some of these requests, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I beli eve the Honour able Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) simply said tha t he was refe rring to his notes and I take him for his word on that . Order, please.

There is no point of order. Order, please; order, please. I have recognized the Honourable Member for Kildonan. Children's Hospital Staff Shortages Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, why does the Minister have to wait for a crisis? He had six months, he never did anything. My question is, last Thur sday this Mi nister of Health (Mr . Orchard) indi cated tha t the financial situation was not responsible for the academic brain drain . Today, the Health Sciences and media clearly indicated the opposite.

Can the Minister of Health tell the House why he misled the House and what steps he has taken to stop the further bleeding of critical shortage of staff at Childr en 's Hospital? Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): The Honourable Mem ber for Kildonan (Mr . Cheema) asks the Minister of Health why he misled the House. Mr. Speaker, if the Honourable Minister of Health is to be asked tha t question by the Honourable Member , impli cit in the question is that the Honourable Min ister of Health deli berately somehow misled the House.

Now I suggest, in the context of the way the question was put, the Hono urable Member ought to withdraw that and put his question in a different way. Mr. Speaker: Ord er, pl ease. The Honourable Government House Leader does not have a point of order. The word "mislead " does show up on both lists again. He did not say "deli berately misled ." Hon . Donald Orch ard (M inister of Health): Mr . Speaker , I did not realize the depth to which my honourable friend could dip in his attempt to make crass political points.

I refer my honour able friend, because I knew that my honour able friend with his lack of research in the Liberal Party would come back on this issue, I refer my honourable friend to page 94 in my answer, and I said "it is not a monetary reason in a num ber of the se instances. " l stand by th ose facts. Mr. Speaker, I wish to share with my honour able friend the reason why a numb er of the se individuals have left pediatric sub-specialti es in Winnip eg. One has become the Mem ber of Parliament for Winnip eg North, hardly a monetary reason, or maybe it is. Mr.

Speaker, another in dividual has left to become the head of a department in another major hospital in Canada. I am not aware of any finan cial impl ications, the y are not ind icated. A thir d individual left to change careers. He is now working 154 as the registrar for the College of Phy sicians and Surgeons, not a monetary issue. A fourth one has not left because of a money situation. A fifth has left for mon ey, as well as career advancement. A sixth . Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, I am having trouble when my honour able friends accuse me of mislead ing the House and then do not want the facts. Mr. Speaker: Order. As the Honourable Min ister has quite - Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. As the Honourable Minister of Health quite ably pointed out to us, this same ans wer did appear in Ha ns ard previously. Centre for Aging Status Report Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

On August 17 of last year, amid all kinds of ceremony and pomp and circumstance, it was announced that Manitoba would be the site of the $23.9 mi llion centre for aging and rehabilitation product development. The initia tive was to be cost-shared between the Western Diversification Office and the Government of Manitoba. It was also to create some 500 jobs in Mani toba's private sector. My question is to the Min ister responsible for Sen iors (Mr . Downey). Could the Minis ter give us an update on this project and what consul tation has he genera ted with the Manitoba seniors comm unity? Hon .

James Downey (M inister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, let me assure you that, in the short time th at I have had as Minister for Seniors, we have been actively work ing on their behalf to develop some areas th at may assist them in achieving a better way of life in this province, and this is one of the areas that we will be further looking at. I can assure the Minis ter (sic) that I will take his specifics of the question under advisement and return with the more detailed answer. Mr.

Carr: I appreciate the promotion from the Mem ber from the crit ic to Min ister, but I assure him th at is the prerogat ive of my Leader and not of him. Mr. Speaker, the promise was made at the time, back in August which is now nin e months ago, that th ere would be a board of directors established and ther e wou ld be consultation with Ma ni toba' s sen ior commun ity. Can the Minis ter tell us today and reassure us, and through us the people of Man itoba, that this $23.9 milli on project is very much on the rails and about to be announc ed? Mr. Downey: Mr.

Speaker, as critic, I am not sure what the Liberal Mem ber has done on this, other than wait

Monday, May 29, 1989 until this particular time in which he could probably gr andstand in front of the people of Manitoba in Question Peri od. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! * (14 10) Budget-Federal Western Diversification Fund Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): If I cannot get an answer from the Min ister, maybe I will try his boss and ask my suppleme ntary to the First Mini ster (Mr . Fil mon). Yet another blow was dealt to Manitoba 's economy and it was levelled by Michael Wilson's Budget.

In that Budge t, the form of some $40 mil lion was cut from the Western Diversification Office at the same time tha t 11 3 staff jobs were incr eased. While the bureaucracy goes up, the gr ants go down. Because Manito ba has already been bad ly treated by the Weste rn Diversificat ion office and has not received its fair share, my question to the First Mini ster (Mr . Filmon) is, can he assure us that no proved or projected programs of the Western Diversification Office wil l be adversely affected by Micha el Wilson's leaked Budget cuts? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, would you mind getting the adult day care centre under control, please? In response to the question from the Mem ber for Ft. Rouge (Mr . Carr), we ha ve no reason to beli eve oth erwise. Land Development Policy Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): My question is to the Mini ster of Cultur e, Heritage and Recreation (Mr s. Mitchelson). Today the Con servative Government announc ed the second case of privatization of existing Government property in the last week. Last week, we were concerned about a specific issue. Now we are more concerned about an emerging trend.

The Governme nt of course is giving up publi c sector land to private land developers for up-scale housing. Mr. Speaker, our concern is that this Government is turn ing its back on the needs of those who require housing and require renovation in their housing, in order to accommo date land developers and those who require up-scale housing.

This latest land deal is the second major departure in the previous Governme nt's -and wha t I thought was this Gov ernment ' s- land development policies, which focused on meeting needs, social needs of those who require hous ing and renovation and, secondly, focused on providing housing at the lower end of the marke t. Can the Minister of Cultur e, Heritage and Recreation (Mr s. Mitchelson) clarify what the Government meant 155 in their release today when they indi cated that this develo pment would have to be compatible with the local neig hbourhood?

What specific criteria does she feel would make this particular development compatible with that neighbou rhood? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I might ind icate for the edification of the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) that in both cases the proposals were under active consider ation and pu rsuit by his admini stration when they were in Govern ment, both the proposal in south St. Boniface and the proposal on the Fort Osborne comp lex, active conside ration.

As a matter of fact, I was told by one of the proposers, in fact in each case, tha t they believed Cabinet was about to approve, that the former Cabinet -they quoted in one case the present Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr . Doer) who was then the Mini ster of Urban Affairs as saying that Cabinet was about to approve the specific proposal. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Mem ber for Concor dia (Mr . Doer), on a point of order. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): The Pr e mier (Mr .

Fil mon) is qu oting total ly false informa tion in this Chamber , just like he did last Friday, and I would suggest tha t he answer the question put to him. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honour able Member kno ws that a dispute over the facts is not a point of order. The Honour able First Minister, to finish his answer. Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, the meaning of compatibility with the local area develop ment is a matter that will be decided and discussed at the public hearings that will take place in terms of appropriate land use, the public hearings tha t must take pla ce in order for this develop ment to proceed, public hearings of the City of Winni peg. They will be held duly, as the y should be, follo wing all the rules and procedures for land use, changes and proposals in the City of Winnipeg . Fort Osborne Complex Neighbourhood Compatibility Mr.

Jay Cowan (Churchill): In a press release today, it very clearly states that proposals for the Fort Osborne site were evaluated using the following criteria, and one of those cr iteria is com pati bility with the local neigh bourhood. Now the First Mini ster is telling us tha t the y really did not know what th ose criteria were. He does not know what com patibility is, and it is a matter for publ ic hearings, Mr. Speaker. Well, tha t is not good enough.

Monday, May 29, 1989 I would ask the Min ister of Culture, Her itage and Recreation (M itchelson), can she define the specific criteria tha t were contem plated in this news release when she indicated that the Fort Osborne site proposals ha ve alre ady been ev alua ted wit h respect to com patibility with the local neigh bourho od? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to answer tha t question for the Honourable Mem ber for Church ill .

Quite clearly , the reason the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreat ion and the Historic Resources Branch of my department was involv ed in the proposal calls for the Fort Osborne Barracks was because the buildings tha t are on that site are of sign ificant heritage value. We spent much time, along with the Department of Go ve rnment Services, my department and tha t department, going over tho se proposals and ensuring that the heritage buildings tha t were on tha t piece of property were going to be maintained and preserved as best the y could.

It is not the Manitoba Government that is going to be developing that property. We had indi cated quite clearly , because it was going to cost the Government of Manitoba about $10 million, up to $10 millio n, to restore and maintain th ose buildings, that we wanted the private sector to become involved in developing tha t property, preserving the heritage buildings and assuring that we had some sense of good development. An Honourable Member: Hear, hear! Mr.

Cowan: Mr Speaker, the re are two criteria in the news release, or th ere are four , one of which is preservation of relevant heritage resources, which the Minister answered. Yet the Government fails or refuses to answer what they consider to be compati bility with the local neigh bourhood . We will continue to ask that question. Ladco Land Development Deal Finalization Date Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): My question now is to the First Minister (Mr . Filmon).

During the last campaig n, he prom ised as part of his campaign com mitments that the Government would sell off one of their properties in Winnipeg for $3 million, one of the propertie s held by the Government. I would ask the Min ister, him having made that statement on April 21, is this the sale or was the sale to Ladco, the $3 milli on sale which he com mitted to during his cam paign, and when was that deal struck? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Well, Mr.

Speaker, as the Mem ber kno ws full well, we are certai nly gett ing more than the $3 mil lion from each of the sales, and the combi ned total is in excess of $15 milli on for the two parcels.-(Int erjection) -Has the Memb er for Dauphin (Mr . Plohman) some informat ion he would like to share with the House? The fact of the matter is tha t during tha t campaign we gave indications of what we considered to be 156 potential sources of revenue for the Government, and one was that we could sell off excess land . Wher e it was profitable and produc tive for the Government to do so, we would sell off excess land.

Rather than have being done what the NOP had done way back in 19 73, purchasing land in south St. Boniface, having inter est paid for 16 years, driving up the value of that land or the cost of that land to the stage where one could ne ver get its value out other than by developing it, we have now proceeded to do what is prudent and wise and businesslike to do, and tha t is to devel op, have that land developed in conc ert with private developers to maxim ize its potential and finally return some mone y to where it belongs, the pockets of the taxpayer. Law Enforcement Review Agency Winnipeg Police Association Mr.

Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Min ister of Ju stice (Mr. Mccrae). In the last two days, the Win nipeg Pol ice Association has sent out the message that they do not think their actions should be subject to review by the Law Enforcement Review Agen cy. This attitude by the association that their actions are beyond review, and their th reat to launch lawsuits against claima nts for lodging complaints that turn out not to be successful are not acceptable to this side of the House. Yet, the defense by the Min ister of Jus tice (Mr . Mccrae) of LERA has been conspicuous by its absence.

My question is, will the Minister today state for the record that with power comes responsibility and tha t the pol ice, like all other professions, must be subject to review and are not above the law, as no one is? Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate very much the Honourable Mem ber's question today on a matter of what I think is of sign ificant im portanc e to all Mani tobans.

I can assure the Honourable Mem ber that I agree who lehe artedly with him that no one in this provinc e is above the law and that there is certainly need in our society to have agencies, as in the case of the Law Society, to which the Honourable Mem ber must subject himself, if that were necessary. He must of course, as his col leagues, obey the rules set down by our laws and also by the rules set down by the Law Society. Sim ilar to the Judi cial Council, which is there to watchdog the judges in our society, so too we have the Law Enforcement Review Agency, Mr.

Speaker, which plays an important .role in our society and for the protection of our citizens. * (1 420) Mr. Edwards: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Min ister of Jus tice for that affirmation of the importanc e of LERA.

Monday, May 29, 1989 Reform Mr. Paul Edwards (St . James): Mr. Speaker, for the same Minister , it ha s now come to light that recomm endations for changes to LERA were given to thi s Mi nister back a year ago, exactly in May of 19 88. The Minister, unfortuna tely true to form, has sat on that report for a year now. Will the Minister do something and table th ose recommenda tons today so that all Mem bers may assist in encoura ging him to do his job in a timely fashion and assess and perhaps imp lement the se recommenda tions? Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I wou ld no t want, Mr.

Sp eaker , the Honour able Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) to go on being offended in her feeling or her allega tion that only her questions have been deemed silly by Hon ourable Mem bers on this side of the House. I would assure the Honour able Leader of the Opposition that some of the questions put toward by the Hono urable Mem ber for St. Ja mes (Mr. Edwards) are also silly. In that respect, the Honourable Mem ber made the silly statement, Mr. Speaker, in his question tha t, true to form, this Minister has been sitting on certain matters.

Well, I need only ask the Honour able Member to read my contr ibution in the Throne Speech Debate, because there is quite a listing of the achievements undertaken by my department since I was named Mini ster.

With respect spec ifica lly to issues relating to the Law Enforcement Review Agen cy, the Honourable Mem ber can read the newspapers as well as I can, indeed uses them as his research document of the last couple of days to tell him and to tell everyone that there are views on both sides, from the view taken by the Poli ce Association that there should be no LERA to other views that th ere should be amend ments. Well, Mr. Speaker, the department reviews th ose suggestions, reviews reports, reviews and monitors the activities of the agency to see tha t it pr ovid es the ma ximum protection for all Manitobans. Mr.

Edwards: Let the Minister defend his delays to the people of Brandon with respect to the Brandon Court House. Let him defend his delays of the court backlog which he has waited a year to come up with something about. He promised that a year ago. He said in December he had a plan. Seven months later, he finally comes up wth a plan. J. J. Harper Inquiry Winnipeg Police Association Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, my final question to this Minister, in the first week of March, $25 ,000 of provincial funds were set aside as being made available to the Winnipeg Police Association to appear and pay lawyers to appear on their behalf at the J. J. Harper inquir y. My question to this Mini ster is, can he assure this House that none of those funds have been used to fund the application by the police to frustrate the entire efforts of this inq uiry thr ough court action in the Court of Appeal?

Can he assure us tha t none of tho se funds have been used by that 157 associa tion to frustra te the whole purp ose of the aboriginal justice inq uiry? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the Honour able Member's

preamble was equally as silly as some of the questions put by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs). Mr. Speaker, I would remind the Honourable Mem ber with respect to the Brandon Court House, which he raised in the

preamble to his question, that the Brandon Court House was the subject, I believe, of no one's election commi tments except my own, and action is being taken as I speak with respect to the Brandon Court House. The Honourable Mem ber talks about court hous es when his own colle ague, the Honour abl e Mem ber for El lice (Ms. Gray), saw fit to withdraw or withhold support for chan ges to the Min nedosa Court House to see that it be repaired. That was done in spite of the oppo sition of Honourable Mem bers opposite.

With respect to backl ogs, the Honourable Mem ber asks another silly question similar to the silly question he asked back a year ago with respect to the Land Tit les Office. With respect to the qu estion the Honourable Member asked about the po lice association, in deed we will not need assistance . Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. I remind the Hono urable Ministers that answers to questions should be as brief as possible and should not provoke debate. The time for oral questions has expired . ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE Mr.

Speaker: On the adjourned debate of the address of His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor (Mr . Johnson) , and the proposed amendment of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs), the amendment th ereto, standing in the name of the Hono urable Mem ber for Churchill (Mr . Cowan) who has 17 min utes remaining. Mr. Jay Cow an (Churchill): Mr. Sp eaker , at the concl usion of my remarks on Friday, I was addressing some comments by Liberal Mem bers from their seat with respect to our intentions when this Th rone Speech Debate comes to a vote in this House.

I had started off th ose comments with a quote by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) which appeared in the newspaper not that long ago when the Liberal Leader (Mr s.

Carstairs) said, and I quote, "I think I have enough credibi lity within the Liberal Party of Manitoba that they know that Sharon Carstairs does what Sh aron Carstairs thinks is best for Sharon Carstairs, and hopefully that is also best for the Liberal Party." That certainly gives us some indi cation of the pecking order of priorities for the Liberal Leader and tha t is what is best for her first, that may or may not be best but hopefully is so for the Liberal Party. Nowhere in tha t quote does she anywhere in dicate that she has

Monday, May 29, 1989 any concern for what is best for the people of thi s province. It is obvious from that statement tha t the Leader of the Liberal Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) does not care about her Party, does not care about her province, does not care about policy and principle quite as much as she cares about what she thinks is best for Sh aron Carstairs. Now we know why she wants tha t electio n, and I am not surprised that she wants that election.

I am surprised that some of the back benchers want that election at this particular time, but I do think they have been tr ained very well by the Leader of the Opposition who, when she assumed responsibili ty for the caucus after the last election, said that she had a lot to teach them. With respect to undying commi tment, with respect to blind loyalty, she has taught them very well because we see them day after day, like a bunch of trained seals, stand and defer to the Leader of the Oppositio n, stand and clap on cue for the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs). (Mr .

Deputy Speaker, William Chorn opyski, in the Chair.) I have to tell you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because I do admire discipline, they are probably the most disciplined caucus I have seen in this House in a long time in paying undying reverence to their Leader on every occasion, even when it is not remotely deserved . Let us talk about the dilemma tha t some of us face in this House with respect to a Th rone Speech which we believe fails on at least two out of th ree counts, and I believe it will be shown to fail on the third count.

Voting out the Government at this particular time, which could possibl y-I do not kn ow if it would or not- put in power a Liberal Governm ent, now that is a really scary thought -as they used to say on a TV prog ram, "very scary." Why is that a very scary thought? Why is that a frightening propositio n? Wha t would happen if she and her gang were to gain power in this province? How long would it be before Manitob ans would be paying for their meals, paying for their toothpa ste, paying for their slippers, when the y are sick and in the hospital ?

How long would it be before the Liberal Leader brought forward in a concrete policy tha t commi tment, tha t promise that she made during the last election? Mr. Deputy Speaker, she is very clearly on the record as having said she believes th at is one way to confront the fund ing in the heal th care crisis. I kno w the Conservatives toy with user fees quite often and I know the y have a general inclin ation to user fees. The fact is, because of the minor ity situation, I believe we have been abl e to dissuade them from im posing user fees in this province.

I am not certain we would be able to do that in a major ity situation, but as long as the y are in a minor ity situation I believe we are safe from them impo sing user fees. • (1 430) I could be proven wrong and I hope the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard ) does not go out to do that. The fact is, I believe we are in such a position that we are 158 safe for the time being.

I do not believe that we would be as safe if a Liberal Government got in power, which was led by a Liberal Leader who has already said she believes that people can afford to pay for their slippers and their tooth paste and whatever other ame nities, as she terms them, when they are in the hospital. They are sick when the y are in the hospital, they are il l, they do not have mon ey, they do not have a bankroll to carry them thr ough. Most of the people in thi s province when they go into a hospital are suffering not onl y serious physical hardship but serious economic hardship.

They do not have the extra money like some may have to be able to pay for their tooth paste, to be able to pay for their slippers, to be able to pay for their mouthwash , to be able to pay for th eir meals. What sort of system are we going to have? If you can pay for steak, you get steak and if you can onl y pay for macaroni and che ese or bologna tha t is what you get? Are we going to base the criteria in the hospital on not what you need to be cheered and made better but on what you can afford to pay, because tha t is where that two-tier approach takes us.

How long would it be before a Liberal Government would im pose their user fee or a means test for Home Care, because that is what their Health critic has hinted at as a way of saving costs to the Home Care Program ? That is what the Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) has hinted at as way of saving costs for the Home Care Pr ogram . You kno w, toying with these sorts of ideas are really quite dangerous. They are dangerous to the concept of universality. They are dangerous to the system which we have built up, which is one of the best health care systems in the worl d, bar none.

They are dangerous to the Liberal caucus, because I can tell you that th ose are comments that are clearly on the record. They are public comments and we, on every occasion, will take the opportunity to remind the public of what lies beneath tha t exterior of arrogance and ego. When I say arrogance, I see some of the Mem bers cringe on the Liberal benches, and I do not use that word without some reference. I am reading from the Southwest Lance, Tuesday, May 23, 19 89, and the question is: are the Liberals ready? It is a column entitled , "Viewpoints" by Mr. Bob Beaton .

I wil l read just the first parag raph and the last paragraph. "Liberal Leader , Sha ron Carsta irs, has sho wn Manitobans on many occasions that she is not short of confidence in her own abili ties and she has now extended that confidence to her band of rookie MLAs." Then it goes through the

article about some of the things the y have said in the past, but the last paragraph in that article, I thi nk, is a tell ing one. It says that maybe the last two parag raphs- Carstairs is correct to point out tha t the Filmon Tories should no longer rely on tho se excuses as a shield against criticism or a defence against inaction, and those excuses of course are th ey have not had time to do anything, the same type of excuses we heard the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) reiterate today in thi s.H ouse and repeat time and time again. But the next paragraph, I think, is equall y as telling and it says, "One just thinks that Carstairs would impr ess more people with her own

Monday, May 29, 1989 ab il iti es if she pr esented them wit h a little less arroganc e." Wha t does tha t tell us? It tells us that the arrogance of tha t Mem ber is begi nn ing to show thr ough to the media, begin ning certainly to show through to Members in this House. I tell you it is beginning to show through to the public in th is province. How long would it be before tha t arrogance resulted in user fees? How long would it be before that arrogance resulted in people paying for their meals?

How long would it be before we would ever see hydro development in the North again, under a Liberal Leader who went up North and called perhaps one of the finest construc tion projects in this province, Lemonstone? Lemonstone! When will we see hydro development under thi s province with a Leader who has that sort of attit ude? I think it is going to be a long time before we see it under the Tories, but I think it will be a lot longer before we would see it under the Liberals who would bring to Govern ment tha t sort of disparaging perception of hyd ro development in thi s province.

How long would Churchill stay shut down under a Liberal Party that says it will not pressure the Canadian Wheat Board to treat Churchill fairly by directing it to ship at least 3 percent of Canada's grain export shipments through the port on an annual basis? The y stand side by side with the Conservatives on that issue. The Whe at Board is the only way tha t we are going to get gr ain through the Port of Chur chill in the short term. It is the onl y way we are going to keep the Port of Churchill alive in the short term.

Yet we have the Conservatives and the Liberals banding together to ensure that the area, where pressure is most needed , will not be brought to bear. Quite frank ly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think that the Liberal Caucus is much more right wing in some of the ir poli cies than are ma ny Mem bers of the Conservative Caucus. Now, I ch ose my words very carefully there.

I said that I thin k much of thi s caucus is more right wing than many of tha t caucus, because there are some very powerful people in the Conservative Government who are really quite rig ht wing, but I think they are being kept in check by the circumstance. I would not want to see any election , Mr. Deputy Speaker, that could only possibly have the effect of changing some names on some doors but would not change the policies or the approach of the Gov ern ment, whether it be Liberal or Conservative.

Given the obscene ego and arroganc e of a Leader who does only what she thinks is best for herself, I believe that an election in this province at this time would be a very risky venture for the future of the province. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, even although I believe the Conservatives have failed in presenting the ir Th rone Spee ch, I wil l no t be voting to br ing down the Government at the conclusion of the Th rone Speech Debate, not because I particularly like the Th rone Speech -I do not.

I do not like the Throne Speech because I think it fails miserably to address the urgent needs of Manitobans and their famili es. I think it fails to address the needs of working Manitobans. I beli eve that the Conservative Throne Speech lacks vision. It ignor es the blatant attack on this province by a federal 159 Conservative Govern ment. The Th rone Speech gives short shrift to seniors. It does nothing to add ress the needs of the homeless and thousands of families living in substandard housing.

It turns its back on the North, and I am appalled by the way in which the Conservative Government, in their Throne Speech , snub bed the Port of Churchill. No, it is not a very good Throne Speech. It is weak and it is timid like the Government that wrote it, but I prefer that approach to a Throne Speech that might be written by a Leader driven by sheer ego and unbr idled arrogance and motivation based solely on doing what she thinks is best for her. When I say tho se words, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am not pulling them out of the air. I am saying them because that is the statement tha t she made.

Those are her exact words. They are not taken out of context, they are not misrepresented . They are a true indi cation of what lies beneath the surface of the Liberal Leader (Mr s. Carstairs) and the Liberal Party. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I find this Throne Speech lacking in many ways. I want to add ress a couple of specifics in the amount of time I have left-and I might just ask you, how much time would I have? Mr. Deputy Speaker: Approximately five minut es. Mr. Cowan: Five minutes should be enough time. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I believe that the Throne Speech totally ignored the Port of Churchil l.

Not only that, but the Mover of the Throne Speech totally ig nored the Port of Churchill, a Conservative backbencher . The Seconder of the Throne Speech totally ignored Churchill, not one mention of Churchil l, not one word about the crisis facing the port in their speech. Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): I did. Mr. Cowan: I will come to that. The Minister of Highways (Mr . Albert Driedger) said tha t he did. Before we get to the Minister of Hig hways, let us look at what the Member for Arthur (Mr . Downey) said.

One of the Mem bers of the all-Party commi ttee on the Port of Churchil l, one of the influe ntial Cabinet Ministers who sits right next to the Premier , in his comments on the Throne Speech said nothing about the Port of Churchill. Now I will give credit to the Mini ster of Highways and Transport ation (Mr . Al bert Driedger) because he spoke about the Port of Churchil l. I will give him credit for having spoken about the Port of Churchi ll, but I will not give him credit for having accomplished anything over the past year with regard to the Port of Churchi ll.

I do not fault him personally and I do not question his motivations because I think he is motivated with all sincerity. I think he is strongly motivated to speak out on behalf of the port but, in spite of that, all that has happened under his tenure and the tenure of his Government is that there wil l be no gr ain shipped through the Por t of Churchill this year, after only two ships having gone through the port last year. I think that is a conde mna tion, not of his wil lingne ss to speak out on the Port of Churchill, but on the fact

Monday, May 29, 1989 that he cannot get his own col leagues in his own Cabinet to listen and he cannot particularly get his colle agues in the federal Cabinet to listen. * (14 40) Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is why we feel it is necessary to send a delegation to Otta wa made up of re pr ese ntat ives of the gra ss-roots supp orters of Churchill on Jun e 8, and tha t is why we think it is necessary to go on our own.

We had thought quite seriously about an all-Party delegation but, when we looke d at what we would be saying when we got to Ottawa -and the primary purpose of tha t particular trip was to get grain shipped th roug h the Port of Chur chill and the prima ry way to get grain shipped through the port of Church ill is to bring pressure to bear on the Canadian Wheat Board to ensure that grain is shipp ed.

If we were in a meeting and we were making that point and both the Liberals and the Conservat ives ganged up on us again, like they did in one instance in this House last year to prevent a debate from taking place, which I thought was quite time ly, on the Port of Churchill, if they were to gang up on us in that meeting again, their philo sophy, their approach, would mean that Church ill would not have the opportuni ty which it deserves to exist this year, so I fault them. I put them together in the same boat, no pun intended.

I fault them for their unwilli ngne ss to put pressure where pressure is needed to ensure that the port survives, and that is why we felt it was necessary to bring to that delegat ion, to bring to tha t meeting th rough that delegation , mem bers who represented the strong desire to ensure tha t the port survives and were prepared to put pressure where pressure was req uired in order to see that happen. I am very disappointed about what has transpi red by this Government and· by the federal Government with respect to the Port of Chur ch ill. We will not give up tha t fight, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

We will fight the Liberals on it and we will fight the con servatives on it, and we will fight alongside the many tens ot thousands of supporters of the Port of Church ill out there who kn ow what the problem is and kn ow how to get action. Mr. Deputy Speaker, with respect to health, I have indicated earlier that we have some very grave concerns that this Government has sat on its hands while the very system of health and the universal nature of the system of health has come under attack by the federal Government.

I do not know why they are afraid to speak out on that issue when they are prepared to speak out on other issues lik e the Portage base. I do not kn ow why the y are afraid to attack the federal Government on the clawback to seniors' incomes, pension incomes, and on the clawback to family allowances when the y are prepared to speak out on the base at Portage. I do not know why it is they choose to speak out on some thin gs and ignore others.

I hope they are notj ust motiv ated by the fact that th ose two bases exist in constituencies that are held by Members of the Cabinet, but I do say that it gives rise to some very serious questions when one looks at the record of what they 160 speak out against and what they do not speak out against.

I want to, in other comments perhaps at a later junction, talk about how I think the change in policy in land development in this province is going to create high-income ghe ttos and exclude th ose most in need and will turn the province around from providing social housing which is req uired and low-income housing which is requir ed in order to accommo date the needs of their friends, the major land developers. Having said that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and in closing, no, I do not lik e this Throne Speech. It fails on at least two criteria out of th ree.

It will most likely fail on thr ee but, notwithst anding that, I think the risk would be greater if at this time this Government were to be de feated and we saw any possibi lit y, any slight possibil ity, that a Liberal Government would be in place that would be based only on what is good for the Leader, not based on what is policy, not based on what is principle, not based on what is req uired for the people of this province, but onl y based on what Sharon Carstairs th inks is best for Sha ron Carstairs. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): . . . They have sunk to the all-time low.

I see the Mem ber for Church ill (Mr . Cowan) leaving now. He has made his comments. I see he is yelling from the Cham ber. He has made his comments and I see that his Leader is in the same boat as the ex- -(lnt erjecti on)-Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will withdra w. I see you are speaking to the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly and I am sure I know what it is about. I will withd raw any reference to the Memb er's either being absent or staying in this House that I have made her etofore. I want to speak on the Speech from the Throne.

I want to touch on issues both in my critic areas and also the broader issues affecting the province as a whole. I think it is an extremely important Speech from the Throne. I think it is given at a very important time in the development of Manitoba as a partner in this Confederation of ours, and I think that we as legislators in this province have a duty to respond sensitively but also with strength to the challe nges which face us as a province.

I sense a lack of both that ingenuity and that sensitivity and the strength on the part of this Govern ment, and I think tha t is very well reflected in this Speech from the Throne. We need look no further than the past year in analyzi ng the last Speech from the Throne and the very many hollo w promises which were made. Mr. Deputy Speaker, let me start by taking a brie f look at the response given by the new Min ister of Justice (Mr . McCrae).

I want to deal with some of the issues which he raised and some of the reasons that he gives for supporting this Speech from the Throne because, as I think we witnessed today in this House during Question Per iod, this . Min ister has an enormous and troubl ing habit of turning what are very serious issues for Man itobans into quite trivial issues, and he deals with them in a very flippant manner . I for one, as a Man itoban but also as a member of the legal profession and as a Member of this House,

Monday, May 29, 1989 take great exception to that flippant attit ude tha t he takes to many of the issues before him. I do give him the fact that he came into office with some very, very serious problems facing the department. I think the entire province was facing major issues, and I think th at the position of the new Government was not to be envied in many departments. Certain ly the Jus tice Department had had its problems, most recently with the Ticketg ate problem.

I want to talk about the comments today that the Minister made and the comments in the Speech from the Thr one that this side of the House somehow does not stand up for rural Manitoba and does not like his City of Brand on. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, quite the cont rary. The commu nity of Brandon was promised a court house. They have very recently, after a year, received assurances again from the Minister of Jus tice (Mr . McCrae), which he made in his election campaign, that yes, it would be done. Were the y given a time line? No.

All tha t was done was tha t a commi ttee was struck, another commi ttee, to look into what the plans would ,, be. I look forward to this Budget. I look for ward to seeing a capital commitment to the court house itself. With the expansion of the courts into rural Manitoba and into the rural urban centres like Brandon, it will be extremely necessary to make provision for the adequate resources. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to bring to the attention of the House the fact that in deed victim s' groups in Brandon, including one put forward by the Brandon Po lice Department, have been left out by this Minister.

Funds which should be available to th ose gr oups are being held up and I believe , quite the contra ry, it is the Mini ster of Jus tice who has forgotten his roots and has forgotten his commi tments to rural Manitoba and his own home of Brandon. Going on with some of the comments which were made by the Jus tice Minister (Mr . Mccrae), he talks about the expansion of the Uni fied Family Court. Well, what we saw in the announc ement made by the new Mini ster of Family Services (Mr s. Oleson) and the Mini ster of Jus tice (Mr . Mccrae) up in The Pas a few weeks ago was a commitment to expand the court .

That is true. There was a com mitment made to appoint new Queen's Bench judges and to provide a rotation into northern and rural Manitoba. However, as I have said all along, there is no sense in expanding the court system and the court facilities without also expanding the other essential parts of the Uni fied Family Court. I am talking of course about conciliation and mediation. Ther e is the Minister from Family Services (Mr s. Ole son) barking from her chair, Mr . Deputy Sp eaker , but the num ber s speak for thems elves.

The num bers are such tha t there is absol utely no fathomable way tha t the adeq uate mediation and concili ation services can be given to northern Manitoba with the meagre provision which has been made by thi s Government. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the court itself, with the provision of the extra judges and the presumed rotation whi ch will be put into effect, will be undercut and will be 161 severely comp romised, I say, by the lack of what is the most prog ressive part of the Uni fied Family Court, and that is provsion for conciliation and mediation services. Hon.

James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Jus t on the point of con ciliation and mediation services as part of the Uni fied Family Court system, I would ask the Honourable Member if he would take a very quick, brief question at thi s time. Mr. Edwards: At the end of my speech, I will be happy to take a question from the Mini ster of Jus tice (Mr . Mccrae), and I presume that by his hand gestures from his chair that he does not intend to stick around and listen to the rest of my speech. I encoura ge him to do it.

I suspect that the Minister was going to suggest tha t he had appointed or had made provision for thr ee new positio ns in The Pas. If he looks at the delays and if he looks at the time constraints for travel around northern Manito ba, he will have absolutely no doubt that he has vastly underestimated the needs in those areas.

All he need have done was speak to some of the practitioners in that area who deal with the immense delays and who deal with the problems th at this Government has failed to add ress on that, as I say, very prog ressive aspect of the Uni fied Family Court. * (1 450) Well, Mr Deputy Speaker, from the response from the other side, I can see that I have hit them, as it were, where it hurts. They are barking from their chairs suggesting that someho w they have been fair to the North, the y have been fair to rural Manitoba. They have been anything but.

We have seen cons istent and incon sistent approaches towards rural Manitoba. They say their decent ralization plan is going into effect. The substance of it so far has been a Cabine t office in Brandon and six jobs in Minne dosa, six jo bs, I might add, which were replacement jobs. Al beit it was very, very im portant to repl ace th ose jobs in tha t com munity, but the fact is that tho se were jobs which were taken by the previous administration and th ey were put back. The next comment which I want to bring to the attention of thi s House that the Minister of Jus tice (Mr .

McCrae) made was that the appointment of Ju dge John Guy and Judge Ju dith Webster to the Provincial Court of Manitoba was acceptable to the public of this province, and he ch astises me in his speech by saying that I have taken personal pot shots at newly appointed mem bers of our judiciary-qui te the contrar y, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

My comments at tha t time were, I believe, in keeping with the best int erests of the people of this province and in keeping with the tradition of doing everything possible to maintain the respect for the judiciary in this province and uphold and incr ease respect for the vaulted positio ns which we put jud ges in, in this province, and it is extremely im portant not just tha t justice is done but that justice be seen to be done. The fact is that this Minister could not wait to make those appointments. The appointments were necessary,

Monday, May 29, 1989 I do not di spute that, but the fact is he could not wait. He had made a commi tment to the Canadian Bar Assoc iation_ He sa id, "I will lo ok at the recommendations of the Law Reform Commis sion before I make new appointments to the Provi ncial Cour t." He said that in March_ He could not wai t, he went ahead , he made tho se appointments_ Quite frank ly, he broke his promis e to the Canadian Bar Associat ion_ That, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, is an extremely im portant thing to note in this Minis ter's relat ionship with the legal profes sion, with tho se who deliv er legal services in this province, because he masq uerades as someone who lis tens and consults effectively but the fact is, when push comes to sh ove, he has kept the critical decisions in the back rooms_ He kept tha t decision in the back room.

He could not wait for the Law Reform Comm ission report_ He appoi nted 15 Q_C_s in Janu ary of this year, an un heard of num ber_ He jus t simply had to do it, he could not wait to set up a formal comm ittee_ No, this Min ister had to appoint 15 Q_C_s in Jan uary of this year. Again, a commitment was made_ He could not wait.

He had to do it even though Q_C_s ha ve nothing to do with the adminis tration of justice_ They ha ve absolutely no im pact on the ad minis tration of just ice and the del ivery of legal services_ Yet, this Minis ter, Attorne y General as he then was, felt he had to go forward _ He just had to do it. No one is qui te sure why_ He has never answered why but the fact is this is the type of Minis ter we have_ He has kept tho se critical decisions in the back rooms_ I bel ieve the publi c will not accept and will see through his al leged commitm ents to open ing up the system to the public.

He said he wanted his tenure as Atto rney General and now Minis ter of Jus ti ce (Mr. McC rae) to be marked by open access_ The fact is it is a very thin veil over the true fact that this Minis ter keeps those key decisions amongs t hi mself and that, I belie ve, will be the verd ict of the public in due cour se, Mr. Deputy Sp eaker_ Next, the Min ister of Justice (Mr. Mcc rae) states tha t the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs), speaking of my Leader , would rather put the conven ience of terrorists ahe ad of the safety of Manitob ans and Canadians. He says that is the wrong kind of priority .

He is speak ing about his plan to deal with drinking and driving. Mr. Deputy Speaker , there is no qu estion tha t drinking and driving is a serious problem. It is a problem which this Minis ter of Jus tice (Mr. McCrae) commit ted hi mself to dealing with almo st a year ago_ We waited until now to get a propos al. That proposal came forward and, qu ite frank ly, parts of it-a nd I say parts of it becaus e other parts of it I agree with wholehe arted ly - are very ill thought out.

I sug gest there is a serious concern about the cons ti tutionality of the im media te suspension with dr ivers' licenc es for 90 da ys upon only the suspicion tha t one is drinking and driving_ I do not think tha t suggestion in any way comprom ises my commi tment and our Par ty 's commitment, and in fact the comm itment of the Second Opp osition Party, to deal with drinkin g and driving_ I think that our comm itments are cle ar. 162 We ha ve repeatedly asked for this Minis ter to come forward with a plan.

He came forward, qui te frankly , with an ill-thoug ht-out and in com petent plan_ The fact is that the 90-day suspension was an excuse for not dealing with the court backlog_ What we need to do in this province is we need to deal with the court backlog _ You need to be able to say to someone who is ch arged , you will be in court, you will be at a trial within two months, th ree months at the outset. Mr. Deputy Speak er, I sugge st to you that taking away the constitutional rights is no excus e for not dealing with the court backlog, and I sugge st tha t is what the problem with the Mini ster's plan was.

However, having said that, I want to pass on and I am sure the Mem ber for Logan (Ms_ Hemphill) would join with me, the Ju stice critic for the third Party, will join with me in thanking the Min ister for sen ding us a copy of the brief on which he relied in making his cons titutional judgment. I will review that carefu lly and I will assess my pos ition. I am not so proud as to be bey ond looking at the opinion that he relied on and asse ssing it. I certainly do not claim to ha ve all the ans wers and I bel ieve it is responsi ble, with respect to myself and the Member for Logan (Ms.

Hemphill), to look at this and assess the details of the propos al. I simply put on the record, as I did earl ier, my concerns that this may in fact be an ill- thoug ht-out program, and that in particular the suspension prior to a trial may work the opposite to what the Minis ter seeks to ach ieve. That is, if this is constitutionally challenged , it will take th ree or perhaps four years to work its way through the cou rts to the Supreme Court of Canada_ That is the time it takes. It will cost im mens e amount s of mo ney. The fact is tha t in the meantime the entir e init iativ e will be held up.

The fact is, if the police went ahead when some thin g that is being cons titutionall y challenged, if the pol ice go ahead and lay tho se ch arges and revoke peoples' licenc es and tho se people lose their jobs and eventually it is found to be un cons titutional, the province ma y end up being in the position of payi ng th ose people dam ages, · paying dama ges to sus pected drinkin g drivers. I simply put that out as the worst-case scenario_ Mr.

Deputy Speak er, it is very im portant to think through any provision which rais es the issue of a constitutional chal lenge becaus e of the expense involv ed , because of the enormous waste of time as we work our way through the courts, and simply because of the straight inj ustice if inde ed Char ter rights are being abrogated_ I susp ect if the Attorney General (M r. Mcc rae) thought he was abrogat ing Ch arter rights, he would think very seriously about the ini tiativ es he has taken_ I do not think he is seeing the dan ger. Mr.

Deputy Speak er, I simply refer in closing on this issue to the two quo tes from the Minis ter of Justic e where he says" tha t the re may also be an indi cation that they wish to come to the supp ort of those whose privi leges we would like to remove, those people who are suspected of impair ed driv ing, or suspended dr iving ," and again do wn later on this page in Hansard , he speaks of the de aling with "sus pected impair ed dr ivers_" Wel l, tha t is precisely the point, suspicion in our countr y is. not eno ugh_ It is not enough, I repeat,

Monday, May 29, 1989 to take away one's rig hts. You are inno cent until proven guilt y in this count ry. That is the law as I kn ow it. That is a law tha t is hundr eds of years old that has been cherished and has bee n pr otected thr ough admin istration after admin istration, and a deviation from it and a taking away of it is the hall mark of a nation that has dropped into decay. * (1 500) Mr. Deputy Speaker, we must protect tha t right vigila ntly. As I said, I will look at the brief put forward by the Constitutiona l Law Branch and I will assess my position in light of that brief.

I will undertake to respond as sensit ively and with as much information as possible once tha t legislation comes forward, but I simply note for the record the concerns we have. I point out to the Min ister considerations which I do not think he has taken into account, and th ose are that this may end up backfi ring. The police and the victims of this province will not thank a Min ister who puts into r place a program which is simply unworkable and which may, in fact, work the opposite. The solution, in my view, at least part of it, was left out of his program, and tha t is to increase the sentence after a trial.

In Ontario, the minimum sentence for a first offence is a year; here it is six months. I support the lengthen ing of that sentence. I am enti rely in support of getting tough with th ose who choose to drink and drive. An Honourable Member: Hear, hear! Mr. Edwards: The program I have put in place, I believe, is workable and also deals more harshly with tho se who are cau ght drinking and driving. I want to mention one more thing on this issue, Mr. Deputy Speaker, an issue which has been totally ign ored by this Min ister.

That is that we must impr ess upon the youth of this province the dangers of drinking and driving and the penalties associated with them. In my program for deal ing with drinking and driving, there was specific provision for an educationa l aspect, and that is going into the juni or highs because I bel ieve in junior high school and perhaps even younger is where it needs to be made very clear tha t drinking and driving in this province is simply not acceptable beha viour. It is not, as it were, cool for th ose who are young to drink and drive.

I think that is a myth that is out th ere in some of our schools, and I th ink we have to deal with it head-on. We have to take this into the schools and let the se young people kn ow. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): In the schools, eh? Mr. Edwards: I see the Min ister of Fina nce (Mr . Man ness) sa ying take it into the schools. Yes, take it into the schools, take it to the youth. Mr. Manness: I have not been to school for 30 years. Mr. Edwards: The Min ister says that he has not been in the schools for 30 years. I suggest he go, I suggest 163 he go and learn about the schools.

I suggest he goes and finds out what is really on the minds of youth because the fact is that youth - Mr. Manness: Why do you not have thr ee teenagers like me in it to understand ... . Mr. Edwards: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Min ister says I should have th ree teenagers like him and know about youth . The fact is that his colleag ue, the Min ister of Ju stice (Mr. Mccrae), has totally ignored the educational aspect of this issue, drinking and driving. There is a serious need to go into the schools and make very, very clear the dangers of drinking and driving and make it graphic.

Let us face it, other provinces have done things that we have not, taken graphic videos and done mock accidents in front of the school to surprise students and show them the gravity of an accident which involves drinking and driving and the wanton and reckless injur y to personal life and to property that occurs because of drinkin g and driving. Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is the sensitivity, I think, that this side of the House has spoken for thr oughout the last Session and will in this Session again.

I think it is tha t lack of sensitivity and it is that lack of ingenuity and any imagination on the other side of the House which makes us think that this Government has very few origina l ideas and even fewer init iatives with which it is willing to go forward. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I onl y want to call attention to one more quote from the Minister of Ju stice (Mr. McCrae) in his response to the Speech to the Throne. He stated, and he is speaking at this time, I believe, about my colleag ue, the Memb er for Fort Rouge (Mr .

Carr), and he says that the Member for Fort Rouge was someho w remiss in asking for the Government to make a statement on an issue, to come forward with a statement on an issue. The Min ister of Justic e (Mr . Mccrae) says, and let us just take his quote, "they are up to a little bit of politics." He reiterates the same concern that the Min ister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mr s. Mitchelso

n) has stated and he says, "they are up to politics." Well, I have two comments. First of all, it is the Government's job to lead. It is this Government's job to lead . We see them asking questions of us today in this House. Is there anything more ridiculous? Is th ere any greater indictment on a Government with absolutely no direction of its own that it turns to the Opposition for ideas and questions? It wonders where is it going, and it refuses to make comments when it feels it can get away without making a comment and lead ing. Then, the Min ister of Jus tice (Mr .

Mccrae), I want to read this quo te, he goes on to say, "The fact is there is a time for politics and there is a time to do what is righ t." The Min ister suggests, there is politics and then th ere is doing the right thing. That is his suggestion . Surely politics itself is about doing the right thing. This Min ister has no idea that may be the case, tha t in fact politic s is about doing the right thing and is about taking a stand on what you belie ve in. We are not in politics to do the wrong thing. We are in politics

Monday, May 29, 1989 to benefit the people of this province. We are in politics to do what we think is right and to work, if possible, cooperatively towards a common goal. The fact is, the Min ister of Jus tice (Mr . Mccrae), he thinks there is politics and then there is what is right. Yes, Sir, he thinks that there is some distinction between the two. I sugge st tha t is a very serious in dictment on the true ambitio ns of this Mini ster of Jus tice and his true approach to his position, and a very vaulted and honour able position that it is.

I want to go on to deal with some of the issues in the Depart ment of Labour, and I am very pleased to con gr atu la te the ne w Mini ster of Labour (Mr s. Hammond). I look forward to developing a relations hip with her as the critic for the Official Opposition, and I want to wish her all the best in her new portfolio. She represents a constituenc y which is very close to mine and I have had the opportuni ty to meet and discuss with her on many occasions. I am sure that we can work out an amicable relatio nship , and I look forward to doing just that in the comi ng Session. However, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I want to look at a particular promi se which was made in the last Speech from the Throne by this Government in the labour field. The last Speech from the Th rone stated and made a promise that cooperative projects with ind ustry and labour for pr ojects in the wor kpla ce reg arding prevention and reduction of factors contributing to injur y and disabili ty wou ld be taken. Well, the unfortunate reality was tha t this Government took the opposite extreme in the labour relatio nship.

They in fact wreaked the same harm tha t had been wreaked by the previous administration on the labour relationship in this province. I hope that this new Minister will look closely at her role which is, in many ways and in most ways, a neutral role, a role tha t attempts to strike the balance between labour and mana gement because there is a tension that is natural in our work place enviro nment between labour and management. I suggest tha t the true role of a sensitive Minister of Labour is, yes, to take initiatives, to move forward with labour legisla tio n.

The role is also not to become seen as so obviously biased to one side of the relationship because a trul y effective Mini ster of Labour wil l have the respect of both sides, and that has been a long time in thi s province since we had just that. We have had a Minister and an admini stration in this province which has been very, very obviously biased and has lost all dialogue and all respect with the other side. The fact is that in the last Session we saw a contin uation of that-jus t went to the other extrem e. I cite the discontin uance of the funding for the Labour Education Centre as part of that.

I also cite the fact th at the joint federal-provincial legisl ation instituting jail terms and fines for emplo yers failing to warn emplo yees about work place hazards, which is in place, was not being fully enforced , comp liance was not being fully enforced by the past Minister . I think that is something which must be dealt with, and I think tha t we also need to see initiatives which will deal with the problems of the extremes in the labour relationship.

I saw, and it was inte resting to see, that the re is a new Labour Mana gement Review Committee set up 164 wit h the Ma ni toba Go ver nment Emplo yees' Association-I believe th ree representatives from both sides. We also have in this province, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Labour Management Review Committee, which is a commi ttee set up for province-wide inter ests, chaired by Mr. Cam Macl ean at present, a man who I have great respect for.

That com mittee, I believe, can serve a very vital role in, as it were, trouble shooting on contentious issues as th ey come up in the labour relationship in this province. * (15 10) I encourage this Min ister to take a very close look at the initial resolution which set up that Labour Mana gement Review Committee and see if there is a way that we can put new life into that committee so tha t it can very effectively, as it has done in the past, deal with the issues which come up in the labour rela ti onship. If you get the rig ht peo ple on th at com mittee, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it is my feeling that you can very effectively troubleshoot on issues as they arise and deal with them so that the emotions are defused and both sides can be heard at the table and deal with it in a rational way. Obviously, the sides are not going to agree on everything, we know that. The fact is, the role of the Minister is to facilitate, as much as possible, discussion and neg otiation on all issues facing the labour relationship in this province. I think there is no greater issue facing this new Mini ster of Labour (Mr s. Hammond) than the job situation in this province.

It is indeed grave as we continue to see the loss of well-paid jobs and with that, no doubt, the flig ht of wel l-paid workers and the ir families, skilled workers, to other cent res. We must deal wit h that, and the Mi nister of Labou r (Mr s. Hammond) must deal with tha t, again I say, sensitively and with some im agination and ingen uity as we head into a new type of relationship, a continental economy and no doubt the Am ericani zation of much of our economy in this countr y. I think the challe nge is· clear.

Un der the new Free Trade Agreement, Manitoba is not, I would submit, in a particularly enviable position. I think we have seen the ramifications of that ever since thi s deal came into place. The fact is that it is in place, and the fact is that it is this Minister 's job to react and not hide behind the rhetor ic of her federal counter parts that thi s is going to be bli ss for all people. The fact is it is not bliss for all people. The fact is Manitoba has and will continue to pay an extremely high price in this countr y due to the so-calle d rationalization of the economy.

She must take her job as the Minister of Labour seriously in the areas of retraining and in the areas of the preservation of the manufacturing sector and the ind ustrial sector and the sectors of this economy which provide th ose jobs tha t feed families, well -paid jobs which we have seen lost again and again and again thr oughout this province under the tenure of this provincial Government. Wha t we saw in thi s most recent Speech from the Throne was a promise to establish a Skills Training Advisory Committee. I simply note that at some point, surely at some point, thi s Government has to act.

I see the ir setting up of the adv isory com mittee as a

Monday, May 29, 1989 recognition that the Free Trade Agreement will and has had deleterio us effects on this province, and I applaud the Government for recog nizing the true effects of the Free Trade Agreemen t. The fact is that this advisory com mittee had better work fairly quickly because we are losing jobs in this province every day, and we have lost many.

Com bined with the poor relationship with the federal Government and the punishment which has been meted out on Manitoba-and I hope I am not correct, I really do- but I fear for the future of thi s province as this Government heads us further into the abyss of economi c scale down in the coming months. I th ink we have started to see it, and I fear that we will continue to see it under this administration because they have failed to come to grips. They have failed to come to grips with the true problems and the true needs of the people of this province. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, also in this Throne Speech under the heading of the Department of Labour, there was a com mitment to attempt to conclude arrangements with the federal Gove rnment to provide benefits to older workers who lose the ir jobs due to major permanent layoffs and are unable to secure new employment. Again, it is an in teresting initiative. I think obviously it is laudable, but the fact is attem pts and com mittees only go so far.

This Government has a commitment to deal with the labour problems in this province and the incr easing siphoning off to other centres of the highly paid skilled labour jobs which we so desperately need in th is province. I want to simply reiterate some of the plant closures which we ha ve seen in this pr ovince sin ce this Governmen t's ten ure and bring to the attention of the Minister of Labour (Mr s. Hammond), if she does not already know, the jobs that we have lost. We lost 89 jobs at the Ogilv ie Plant. We lost 18 0 jobs at the Westcott. We lost 37 jobs at Marr's in Brandon.

We have the announced closure of Toro of Canada of Stein bach, that is another 28 jobs. We have 45 jobs at Marks and Spencer. We have serious problems that we are facing in this economy of ours, and I suggest and I reiterate that the federal Government has shown that it is in no way willing to cooperate with the Province of Manitoba to buttress what we have to offer in this economy. Rather the y are looking to take and take and take, and the y have done that, and they have done it repeated ly.

It is with great sorrow tha t I conclude, and I think all of us conclude on this side of the House, that this Government simply does not have the ability to be strong in Ottawa. This Govern ment simply does not have, as it were, their federal counterparts on the phone or anywhere. They do not meet with them . They canno t get them on the phone, and they certainly can not produce results. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it is extremely impor tant in a have-not province to be tough and to stand up for the real needs and the principle of equa lization in this country, because that is the principle that thi s country was built on. We are not equal in population, we are not equal in resources, and we are not equal in tax base. The fact is that this countr y was built on equal ity from coast to coast to coast. The fact is that the Liberal Govern ments always recog nized that. They always 165 reco gnized that th is was a Conf eder ation . This Govern ment fails, I believe, to have any vision of the countr y at large.

I think that is shown by their flip-flop stance on Meech Lake. They do not know what they are doing. They are following the polls consistently since then, and prior to that as they go to Ottawa and they attempt to show Manitobans that they have something to say to Ottawa. The fact is, I think they get down there and a nudge and a wink and it is over and they are back and nothing happens. So much for the rece ntly ele cted federal representati ves from this province. We certainly know that their efforts, far from being any more successful, are an absolute shame.

I am sure they will be called to account by their voters. The fact is tha t we have enter ed the first year of a four-year term federally and I think it is fairly consistent with Conservative policy. They simply look back to the last election, see what they promi sed and forget about it -scratch , scratch , scratch. We have seen consistently broken promises by the federal counterparts.

I fear for the future of this province, a province which I and many others love dearly and have lived in for many, many years, and a province which I chose to come back to from the East, specifically because I believed in the quality of life that one could achieve in this province, and I continue to maintain that. It is very , very important for a pr ovincial Government to stand up to the powers that be in the rest of the countr y. Mr. Deputy Speaker, may I ask how much time I have left? Mr. Deputy Speaker: Th ree minutes. Mr. Edwards: Three min utes. Time flies, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and I greatly regret that I will not have adeq uate time to make all of my comme nts on the Speech from the Th rone, but I cannot leave without making some comments about the third Party. The Mem ber for Churchill (Mr . Cowan) and the Mem ber for Concordia (Mr . Doer) spent most of their speech talking about us, and I am going to save th ree minu tes to talk about them . The fact is we know who the enemy of the third Party is in this House. It is very clear. The fact is, it is us. It is the Official Opposition. They are scared to death about the Official Opposition .

They spent all their time haranguing on and on and on because the fact is they are in bed. It is an unholy alliance with the Government of the Day. Quite frank ly, the speeches which were read could largely have been written and read by our honourable friends on the Govern ment side. There is no shame that is too great for the third Party to bring to this House. I say that J. S.

Woodsworth, I say that Tommy Douglas would be rolling in their graves about the unholy alli ance which has developed in this province, an alliance not built on any princip les, not one principle, because the y stand up, the Mem ber for Churchill (Mr . Cowan), and he says, they have deserted seniors. Yes, the y have deserted the North. * (1 520)

Monday, May 29, 1989 The Leader of the third Party (Mr . Doer) stands up and says the same thing. He says, oh, thi s is terrible. This Government is absolutely decimating the economy and the No rth and deserting th ose who are underprivileged in our society, but th ey say, we are not going to go to the polls. We are not going to stand up for our principles, no. Wha t are they going to do? They are going to follow. They are going to bow to the knee of opportu nism of the worst kind. The y have absolutely no principles, and I believe the credibili ty of the third Par ty has been irreparably impugned.

The fact is, when I went to the NDP doors in my constituen cy, and it is previously an NDP -held seat, there were seniors who said, Mr. Edwards, I have voted NDP all my life and I am going to vote NDP. I had respect for those people because I said, look, you have voted this way. They were generally kind to me. They just said, I am voting for the NDP. I had a lot of respect for th ose people, but the fact is when I go to the door next time, I am going to have absolutely no respect for th ose who continue to support the NDP because the fact is I do not believe anybody wil l.

The fact is when my consti tuents, who continue to support the NDP, say, I am supporting NDP, I am going to bring to their attention the fact that the ir Party and their Leader are now in bed with the archen emies. These people who for eons, for decades have been saying, would it not be terrible, it would be terrible, the pro vince will be over when Sterling Lyon gets in, and when Mr. Filmon gets in. The fact is, who is propping up th is Go vern ment? We kno w who is propp ing up thi s Government and the people of Manitoba kno w who is propping up thi s Government. I beli eve tha t the . Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honour able Member's time has expired . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Government House Leader (Mr . Mccrae). Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Deputy Speaker , I take it because the Ho nourable Mem ber for St. James (Mr . Edward

s) exceeded his time allotment by a minute or two tha t he obviously did not wish to answer any of my questions tha t were raised earli er in his speech. Two small points and they need not take any length of time at all, the Honourable Mem ber was compla ining th at the complement of staff for the family mediation work to be done out of The Pas was insufficient. I would ask the Honourable Member if he read the report of the task force, which made recommenda tions as for the setting up of the Un ified Family Court.

If he read the comp lete report, he would find that was the num ber of staffpeople recommended for that location. The other thing is with respect to the im paired driving coun term easures being introduc ed by my col league, the Honourable Mi nister of Hig hways (Mr . Al bert Driedger) . The Honourable Mem ber for St. Ja mes (Mr . Edwards) should be aware tha t I went to great pains 16 6 on Friday to make available to him and the Honourable Mem ber for Logan (Ms.

Hemphill) the legal opinions that lie behind our wish to move in the directio n of certain changes with regard to drivers' licences and impoundments, and so on. I find it somewhat surprising that the Honourable Mem ber should rise today in his place to speak against these ini tiatives, not having read that informa tion, as he indi cated in his speech. I wonder if the Honourable Mem ber wou ld not like to read tha t informa tion before coming out in favour of impaired drivers, as opposed to the rights and the safety and protection of lives in Manitoba? Mr.

Edwards: I do not want to cont ravene the Rules of the House but the fact is that I believe a good portion of my speech was lost on the Minister of Jus tice (Mr. McCrae) and I will not say why. The fact is that I stated with respect to the impa ired driving - Mr. Deputy Speaker: Does the Honour able Mem ber have a question? Mr. Edwards: I am re sponding to the question, and I will respond very briefly, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The fact is I stated I would not be taking a shotgun approach to this.

I exp ressed my concerns at the time that the initiative came forth, and I am going to take the legal opinion that has been afforded me very seriously. If the Honourable Minister of Ju stice (Mr. Mccrae) reviews my comments, he will see that I did not categorically state that I would not be supporting this initiat ive. I said I had serious concerns. I said I would review his documenta tion extremely thorough ly. I will be coming forward to this House with what I believe is an educated opini on, which I believe is the responsible position for a critic to take. With respect to the first question, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the Mini ster, as much as he pretends that he listens to the grass roots, does not listen to the gr ass ·roots. The fact is, if he went to northern Manitoba and if he listened to the people who practice in that area and who dealt with the system , he would realize, as I am sure the futur e will unf old, tha t the provis ion for mediation and concili ation services in the North is woefull y inadequa te, and I believe that will be proven in his tenure. I simply leave th ose comments as they stand. It is a prediction and I encou rage the Mini ster of Jus tice (Mr .

Mccrae) to do what he says he does and talk to the grass roots before he makes the se decisions. Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): I would like to begin by firstly offering my personal congra tulations to you on your election to the high office of Deputy Speaker of this Chambe r. You and I go back some years together and have had a personal friend ship th at goes beyond politics, and it is certainly pleasing to me to see you sitting in tha t chair.

I know that you will do thi s House proud and I think all Mem bers of this House share in my sentiment in wishing you again best wishes in your capacity as Deputy Speaker. An Honourable Member: Hear, hear!

Mond ay, May 29, 1989 Mr. Praznik: I would also like to take the opportun ity to cong ratula te several other Mem bers of this House on change s in their respective posi tions within their Parties. Of cou rse, to my two col leag ues, the Honour able Gerrie Hammond and the Honour able Harry Enns, I wish them all the best in their appointment to the minis try. Both ind ividuals I have had the honour to work with over the past year as a Mem ber of this Assembly and a Mem ber of our caucus.

I mus t say that both of them I fou nd to be extremely capable ind ividuals who will serve the province wel l, and I am_ certainly glad tha t they are in tho se positions in Cabi net. I kno w they will do well for the people of Ma nitoba, and I wish them both all the best and a long tenur e in the minis try. * (15 30) I would also like to take the opp ortu ni ty to congr at ula te my col leag ue, the Mem ber for La Verend rye (Mr. Pank ratz), on his elec tion as our caucus chair . I know he will do an able job in tha t posit ion and I look forward to work ing with him.

I would also like to extend congra tulations to the Mem ber for St. Johns (Ms. Wasyly cia-Leis) on her appoi ntment as the Deputy Leader of her Party, as well as to her col league, the Mem ber for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), on his appointment as the third Party House Leader. Both of the se individuals I have come to kn ow and respect over the last year, and I wish them well in their positions. I must admi t that the Mem ber for St. James (Mr. Edwards) did not take me by surpr ise in any way wha tsoever when he indica ted he would no t be supporting the Throne Speech.

I think it was fairly evi dent the Li beral Party is pla ying the role of a typ ical, usual Opposition Pa rty, oppo se every thing the Gov ernment do es, hope that you can convinc e the peo ple that you ha ve some new and imagina tive alterna tiv e and someda y will walk across to this side of the House. There is nothing surprising in that attitude or in the comm ents from the Member for St. Ja mes or any of the other Li beral speakers. It is very typical for an Official Opposition Party to do it.

What is surprising is this is the Party that came onto the polit ical scene a year ago and said they were going to be di fferent, tha t they were going to offer new ideas, tha t they were going to ha ve new proposals and they were going to offer some new ima ge of polit ics to the people of Mani toba. I think the la st year has proven tha t if there is any hollo w rhetoric in this House it comes from tha t side. When the Mem ber for St. James (Mr.

Edwards) made comments about the New Democratic Party and that Party aba ndoning its principl es and criticizing them for acting responsible and sust ainin g a Go vernment for this province, I think what that only demons trated the New Dem ocrats and Con servati ves certai nly ha ve a lot of ground in which we di sag ree.

It sho wed a Party that was acting responsi bl y for the people of Man itoba, recog ni zing that we had a mino rity Go ve rnment, indic ating tha t the people did not want an elec tion in that time and work ing within tha t framework to achie ve not only a legislativ e agenda for the people, but also 167 use this opportunity to put forward some of their legislation to this House in the form of Private Mem bers' Bills tha t would better the liv es of Man itobans.

As a Mem ber of this side, I certainly look forward to di scussi ng and deba ting some of th ose Bills and, hop efu lly , being able to suppor t some of them as th ey come forward where the legisla tion is good . That is called a cooperative, good working relationsh ip. If there is any surp rise in this Chambe r, it is that the Con servative and New Dem ocratic Parties ha ve matu red and are of a certain maturity tha t they are able to do that.

Tha t is the real surprising thing, tha t our two Parties who have fought each other long and hard for 20 years, gi ven new electoral real ities, are able to act respo nsibly to ensur e th ere is Go vernment, and good Go vernment, in Man itoba. What is not surprising is tha t the Li beral Party has fallen into the typical mode of any other Opposition Party strictly here to critici ze and stand ready should the people of Ma nitoba deter mine to put them in office.

That is fine, but let us not fool the people of Manitoba that they ha ve anything dif ferent, anything new and, heaven forb id, anything exciting to offer the people of this provi nce. I would like to also use this opportunity to thank the Prem ier (Mr. Filmon) of the provinc e for appoi nting me to the Meech Lake Task Force. I have enj oyed tha t job and I am enjo yi ng it presently as we work towards drafting a report, enjoyed it imm ens ely. It has giv en me an opportu nit y to work clos ely with two of my col leagues, the Mem ber for Ki rkfield Park (Mrs. Hammond) and the Memb er for Bran don West (Mr.

Mccr ae), the Attorne y-General and Min ister of Labour respectively , as well as the Leader of the New Democr atic Party (Mr. Doer), the Leader of the Li beral Party (Mr s. Carstairs) and the Mem ber for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr). I think the spirit of coopera tion that ha s existed in that Task Force has been tremen do us and stands as a model that I wish our col leagues opposite in the Li beral Party would be able to emula te in the Hous e, but there are no mi racles, I imagine, in politic s. It has been exciting to li sten to Manitobans on Meech Lake.

It has certai nly been an eye-opener to see the convict ion of Manitobans to see a new constitutional development in this countr y that recogniz es their role with in Conf ederation, their in terests as a provi nce, while at the same time preserving the national un ity of our great countr y that we all would lik e to see. I look forward to our further di scus sions in tha t com mit tee and prod ucing a report tha t I si ncerely belie ve all Mem bers of this House and in deed the vast majority of Manitobans are going to be able to suppor t and giv e to the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), our Premie r, to take fo rward as a cons titutiona l deba te prog resses and need less to say, I think it will-s o that he may represent us at the table of Fi rst Min isters and come up with a cons titutional Accord tha t all Canadians, hopeful ly, will be able to liv e with and be comf ortable with. I would like to spend the majorit y of my time on this debate conc entrating on the speech of the Leader of the Op position (Mrs. Carstairs), because I ha ve read th at speech a numb er of ti mes. I sat in this Chamb er-

Monday, May 29, 1989 any my colleague indic ates it should not take Jong. I wou ld di sag ree, I think it will take a great deal of time because there are so many thin gs tha t just do not make sens e and need some di scussi on. -- Mr. Deputy Spea ker, I have read tha t speech a numb er of ti mes and I ha ve look ed at a varie ty of issues tha t she has raised on which her Party -or I should say her, I am not qu ite sure if all Mem bers of the Li beral Pa rty get a say in a lo t of the se issues, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

But I ha ve lo oked at a numb er of the issues tha t she has raised about how terri ble our province is. She puts onto the nega tive side of the scale a lis t of issues and fails totally , as we would expect of any typical Op position Leader, to put any thing on the positiv e side.

So I wou ld like to use this op portun ity to review some of tho se issues and hope fully correct the balance a little b.it and perhaps giv e some new in sight to some of our colleagues in the Liberal Pa rty as to some of the realities tha t Man itobans face and some of the great problems and the true, the mor e realistic means of deal in g with them than just em pty rhetoric. In that speech, the Lead er of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) referred to the Throne Speech as a hol low shell of rhetoric. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I think she certai nly has indic ated tha t she knows what tha t means by her own speech, or from her own speech. In that speech, she criticiz ed the Manitoba eco nomy . It is the Gov ernment's fault th at there has been a slight slo wdown in certain sectors in the Manitoba econ omy , but yet the Mem ber for Assini boia (Mr. Mandr ake) and the Mem ber for St. Ja mes (Mr.

Edwards) clearly forge t tha t the Government of any provi nce or any jurisdiction do es not control every aspect of an economy , nor do th ey remember tha t a provi ncial economy is greatly affected by the nation in which we li ve, by the conti nent in which we liv e, ind eed the world markets in which we li ve. We benefit from many act ions tha t happen in other parts of the world and we suf fer by them as wel l, and tha t is not the responsibi li ty of one set of Mi nis ters or, heaven forb id, if the Mem bers across the way were in Go ve rnment, would be ne cessar ily al ways their responsibilit y.

I think tha t the y have to be hone st with the people of Man itoba and admit tha t fi rstly. Mr. Deputy Speaker , one fact, and one only has to look at a num ber of the su rveys tha t have been done on the Manitoba ec ono my-I ha ve one here, the National Housing Outlook, publ ished by CMHC in the autumn of last year and they ind icate very clearly tha t much of the weakness, and I quo te, Mr.

Deputy Speake r, ". . . mu ch of the weakness in the Manitoba economy can be traced to the agricultur al sector wher e production is expected to decl ine as a re sult of severe dr ought conditions." In a provi nce where agricultur e is one of our No. 1 ind ustries, when the wheat do es not grow, though there is no wheat moving through the syste m, the dol lars are not there in the agricultu ral sector to buy thi ngs, people who work in agribusi ness, in the agrifood sector, do not necessar ily ha ve the raw product to process and there is a tremendous ripple effect .

One would almo st get the sense that Mem bers across the way would blame the drought conditions on the 168 Go vernment. Wel l, if tha t is the case, then I think we should also commend the Min is ter of Agricultur e (Mr. Findla

y) on a tremendous drought relief program he held la st week, some 2 1/ 2 in ches of rai n. Now, Mr. Deputy Sp eaker, if you are going to critic ize us for drought, gi ve us cred it for rain. The Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstair

s) lis ted a numb er of plant closur es in the province. Li beral Mem bers opp osite, in their speeches, have referred to this li st as clear ind ica tion everything is in trouble. Wel l, let us jus t look at a few of th ose. Look at Canada Packers, look at their plant in St. Boni face which was cl osed some time ago, look at the plant they cl osed last year. Both of them are old plants. Here is a com pany tha t has made a great deal of mo ney in Manitoba over qui te a numb er of years. Where is their respo nsibili ty to reinv est and dev elop th ose pla nts? Wh ere is it?

Is it our responsi bili ty as leg isla tors, as a Go vernm ent of Man itoba, to pump in mo ney in to a company every time a com pany refuses to do it thems elves? Do you think the consolidation of the mea t indus try, in the case of the large Canada Packers plant in St. Bon iface, the cons olidation of tha t ind ustry in Ontario is some thing tha t any Party in Mani toba wants to see? But it is one of the realitie s in the beef indus try, and you do not over come that, Mr. Deputy Sp ea ker, by trying to preserve fa cil ities that are outda ted wi thin the marketp la ce.

I think Man itobans should be saying to Canada Packers, we buy a lo t of your product. Are you going to produc e some here, to process some here? We do not hear tha t kind of call coming from the other benches. We come to say the y should have kept their old plants open. * (1 540) The same is true with Ogi lvie Oats, the only plant in North America sti ll using stone mil lstones, a plant tha t was ini tiall y begun before Man itoba was a province.

Mo ls on's, the brewery indus try- anyone who took 20 min utes and rea lly look ed at tha t ind us try wou ld un derstand th at the brewery ind ustry faces a numb er of very critical problems. One is obviously the opening up of market. We sell a lot of Canad ian beer in the U.S. We can expect the y are going to sell a fair bit here-a nd the y are. But your constituents and my constituents are drinking tha t Ame rican beer. Yet you would blame this Go vernment for the cons olida tion in the brewing ind ustry?

Do you blame your constituent when you go to the do or, tha t he may be drinki ng Am erican beer ins tead of Canad ian? No, th ey do not, so be fair. Tha t is what I am saying to the Mem bers op posite, because I kno w the public of Manitoba will ulti mately be fair and un derstand tho se issues. Wha t about the positiv e side of the ledger? Wh ere ha ve we heard Mem bers op posite at any time mention tha t positiv e side? Well, I will tell you .

Today we ha d dis cus sions about Corning bringing a pilo t project to Manitoba in East Sel kirk, de vel oping a resou rce where we are unique and have a potential ma rket ni che in Ma nitoba. That is positiv e news. In stead , we hear some concern about ho w the nego tiations are going. I am sure tha t the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) do es not make all her nego tiations pu blic. Certainl y

• Monday, May 29, 1989 not. But she expects this side to? As the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has indic ated , I do not think she ma de her di scussions with the Mem ber for Sprin gfield (Mr. Roch) public as she was going about doing them. No one wou ld expect her to. To defer expansi on-a nother positiv e for the positiv e side. Northern Telec om, who celeb rated some 20 years of opera tion in Manitoba, do the Mem bers op posite kno w tha t corpora tion has just transferred 50 jobs from their plant in Queb ec to Wi nnip eg? No, they never mention that. But they are then the positiv e side.

In my own constituenc y, Abitibi -Price, who emplo ys some 500- plus people dir ectly in their mill and another 400 people through contra ctor s in their woods opera tion, alm ost a th ousand famil ies in northeastern Ma ni toba dependent on that busi ness, Abitibi- Price will be in vesting in Manitoba over the next two years nearly $26 million, $ 18 million of it in a new woods room, $5 million to put a new 50-inch roller into operation so they can produc e paper for the Wi nnip eg Free

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-7a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 7a.pdf
Language	en
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Identifier	0892ee255b0367178687acce283b40454f6ac864

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