Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, DECEMBER 18, 1975 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 20

December 18, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M .. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape No. 759 Page 1 - mw MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, before we get on to statements by ministers I would like to rise on a matter of privilege, Sir, arising out of an

article in The Daily News, of December 18, today, which contains, Sir, four very serious inaccuracies. Sir, on the front page, under the heading "Neary wants it to go ahead", in the fourth column, Sir, in the second paragraph, and I quote: "Mr. Neary said a private meeting between the two had been arranged prior to a meeting of the Liberal caucus at which Mr. Smallwood made his support of the Liberals contingent upon Liberal opposition to the takeover" - of course, of Brinco, Now, Sir, that may well be so, that ~~r.

Smallwood at the time made his support of the Liberals contingent upon Liberal opposition to the takeover of Brinco. However, Sir, I want to make it abundantly clear that neither the Leader of the Liberal Party nor the Opposition caucus agreed with this arrangement at any time. MR. NEARY: Not true! Not true! MR. F. ROWE: Sir, we feel that the welfare of this Province is more important than Mr. Smallwood's or any other person's support of the Liberal Party. So, Sir, I want to make it quite clear that no deal was made, no agreement was made whatsoever at that meeting. t-!R. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! MR.

ROWE: Sir, the second - MR. NEARY: Runic urn! }~. SPEAKER: Order, please! MF.. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege nobody can interrupt or raise a point of order. Mr. Speaker, on the second inaccuracy, and I will quote it: "Mr. Neary·, over the denials of Opposition House Leader, Fred Rowe, said he himself had made arrangements for the meeting and it had taken place at Mr. l!owe's residencehight in the hon. member's basement:" Then I am quoted as saying: 1"No sir," shouted Mr. Rowe.11 I did not deny, Sir, this meeting. It did take place. But the

article ~ives the impression that I said there was no meeting, but the statement itself is simply not true, Sir. The member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), for Bell Island then, 1967

nec~mber 18, 1975 Tape no. 759 Page 2 - mw MI. l'OI-/E: and myself felt at that time that a meeting between the Liberal caucus and l'r. Smallwood would be desirable and necessary in vie~' of the possibility of expropriation or whatever. Sir, we would have been derelict in our duty if we did not call upon the vast experience of the former Premier, who is the most knowled~eahle person with respect to the development of the Upper rhurchill. Sir, as a resu] t of this, the member for LaPoile O·•r. Neary) now, Bell Island then, took the respons5bil1 ty for contacting the member fnr '!'w:f llin!(ate (~'r.

Srn;ll hmod) or l'r. Smallwood at that time, and then, Sir, I undertook to get the Leader of the Opposition and the caucus together. and a meetjn? Pas held, Sir, at l~lich "'e di.scussed the implications and the ramifications of the government's possible action whatever it wa.s to he at that time. Sir, I state once again, no deal or agreement was made at that time v7hatsoever. ~-m. • NF..APY: You are just trying to justify your existence on the payroll.

You are in C"Ver your head. >.m. 1'0\-IE: Sir, the th1rd inaccuracy which I "'i.sh to relate to - and I ask for your in<lulgence, Sir, because it is rather detailed and it does involve four very serious inaccuracies. I do not know v!hether the inaceuracies are a result of the reporting or, you know, the way in >rllich the han. member put his worcl·s the other clay, 1->ut the th1rrl one, Sir, is: "Follm ·7ing the caucus meeting, Liberal caucus members had 1->een 'bound to silence' on the issues of the share purchasE'." Sfr., that is simply not tnte. Jm.. ~lliAPY: That is true! ~. ~PEAKEP: Order, please! ~m.

POWE: Sir, we agreed at that meeting and suhse~uentJv after that meetin~ that discretion obviously was in order. at that particular time, ancl under the democratic system that v•e practice, there is obviously a need for caucus solidarity 1968

necemh~r 18, 1975, Tane 7~0, ~age 1 - - ~n~ ·~. qnt~r: All th<>r t> shoulcl he c:tucn~; liOJiflAritv nn the other <:1.<11' :mfl cnhin"t solicln ritv. !-iir, thL<: HM< not thr time to p.o 'lcon:trdt:o:e nnv nPpflti:ttions. '~r. s.,enkP r, T nm nc>:l.ntine out ,:;omP verv seri.on,:; inaccu r :~ciPS «htch ar<1 simnlv oot tnt!'. 'Ill . W~Y :. Thf'v are true! Yon know thev :lrf' truE'! "P. F.R.RC'IWl": Thill ill ~ time, Sir, whPn irresnoosirJe statPmP.nts hv nnv ml'mhrr of this Hflusr couJ~ not he afforded and nossihlv 1ronarcli7.e anv nt>~otiations hrtwrrn nRrqr.o and the P.overnment of thr d11v.

And, Sir, to snv that •~r wrre hound to silence is ahs o l utr lv true, and to s u r~ellt thnt :myhodv c11n silence the memher for T.aPoile (Mr. Nearv ) simnlv clef icE: the :imap.ination and, in fa~t. reality . S~ff. •'l'l"'. HEMBP.RS: ·---- l'ear, hP:tr! MR . F .B. ROWE: \'nw, Sir, the fourth inaccuracv - and it is all ll nart of the one sentPnce - "Following the caucus meettnp. T.iher:tl caucltS mPmhcrs wer <' 'hound to silence ' on tht> Jssne of the s!l nre rurch:~se and said ~1 r . Roberts 'disanoeared ' f'or several weeks "'n<l woulcl sav no thin~ about it . " Si r. that a~ain is simnlv not true.

And, Sir, t do not think that is a misouote and this is one of the rensons for me standing he r P on this noint of nrivile~e at this nt~int. Sir. Sir, T think t he hon . thP member fo r the Strait of Belli' Isle (Mr. Roh<'rts ) ilnd a t.<r . William Rm~<' - T clo not think. th ere ts anv secret - hnd discussions with ton officinls for v<>rv obvio us reasons. This js a verv serio~s matter ancl it was only n dnv or ovPrnip.ht or somethin~ - "~. ROP.I'RTS: And the P.overnment knew tt at the time :~nd so they should hAve. MR.

RllWf_:, The p,overnment knew it nt the time, Sir, and t his w:~s a sound and MMjhJ P thinr. for the T.ead!' r nf thP. Or>nosit1.on to do nt that time hccause of tht> nrgency and mnr.n:l tu<le of thr P.nvernment 1 s inten<led nction. ~. RI)BfRTS: Came back on the 1et too . 1969

Decel'lher. 18, 1975, Tape 760, Pap:e 2 -- apb "'R. F .11. ROl~E: ------- Now, Sir, I .iust want to set the record straight on this matter and '~hatever the member for LaPo:lle (Mr. Neary) has aJ!;ainst the Leader of the Opposition, Sir, it should not cause him to flirt with the truth durin!!: his' attacks on the Leader of the Opposition. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, Sir, that was not a point of privilege. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! · order, please! MR. NEARY: Nr. Sneaker, I want to raise a point of order. ------- MR. SPF.AKP.R: Order, please!

Order, Please! MR. NEARY: I want to raise a point of order, Your Honour. MR. SPRAKER_:_ I ask the hon. gentleman to take his seat for a moment and T will recognize him later. A point of orivilege has been raised by the hon. the member for Trinity- Bav de Verde (Mr. Rowe). As I stated vesterrlav when two hon. gentlemen both arose and gained the attention of the Chair hy rising on a point of privilege.

It is fa:lrly clear, and the same distinction is as valid today as it was yesterday, that there are points of technical, preciselv defined nrivile~e, and there are nlso onnortunit.ies '~hen a me.mher will get un to make " noint on a noint of nrivilef(o, l~hich in the strict definition fg not a noint of nr1.vile~>e. Tt is a noint that the hon.

P,entlem<'!n wishes to make an explanation on hecause in his opinion he has been misouoted, l'lisunrlerstood, that comm<ents in the press or eJ sewhere have heen mRde '~ith resnect to what he hRs SRid, which do not c.orresnond with t~hat he thinks he s;oJcl, 0r what his intentions l¥erP. That is the kinrl of noint that we are on now. Pennie in sneakinv, should obviously confine their remarks ouite closelv and nrecisPlv to those matters on which, in the1r 6nin1.on, they were misquoted or misunderstood. Now the hon. the member for LaP0ile (Mr.

Neary) wishes to r.ise, presumably on the same no.int,which could well be allm·•ed. 1970

necember 18, 1975, Ta~e 760, Page 3 -- npb MR. NEARY: On a ~oint of n~rsonal T'rivilel!;e, Mr. Speaker. There 1~as one error, Sir, in that reflortinp. in The Dailv News and that was in connection 1,rith the T.eader nf the O]'position desannearin~ for several weeks. It was not several weeks, Sir, i.t was on1v a matter of days actuallv. So in that regard. Sir, I have to a11:ree with my former colleaJ!;ue the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F.B.Rowe).

But, Sir, the membe.r is not allowed in this House, Your Honour, to ~>ay indirectlv what he cm:tnot sav directly and that was to accuse me in. the latter part of his rP..marks of flirt'inp. with the truth, and I ask Your Honour to check throul!;h lleauchesne and demand, Sir, that that hon. member 1~ho made that statement a few moments ago retract it and anolop.i~e to !'le, Sir, because every worri that I uttered in my remarks vesterday was true. And instead of the Leader of the 0pposition, Sir, !!:ettin!!: up and making a point of privileRe on this matter he had one of his lackies do it. AN RllN. ~IF.

MRF.R : Oh, oh! IR . SPEAKER : Order, please! Order, please! 1971

December 18, 1975 Tape 761 PK- 1 MR. NEARY: And so, Mr. - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have to call the han. gentleman's attention to the use of that latter term, and also that in this kind of procedure there is not to be any debate between han. gentlemen. If different members have a different

interpretation of what was said or what was meant , they can point out what their own

interpretation is but cannot enter into debate. NR. NEARY: That is unparliamentary. I retract. But I want Your Honour also to check Hansard,if Your Honour has to,in connection with the remarks that were made by the han. gentleman, Sir, who practically was saying that I was a liar. AN HON. MEMBER: Did he say that? MR. NEARY: Well,flirting with the truth, Sir, is the same as calling a member a liar. It is saying indirectly what you cannot say directly in this han. House.

Your Honour has already made several rulings in that regard,and this is the sort of thing, Your Honour, as you know,that lowers the decorum of this han. House. I am not going to get into a mud slinging match with the han. member, If I did, Sir, I am afraid that I would redden his face for him before the afternoon is over. ~0'-fE PON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. gentleman, I believe, made reference to words 1Jhich he thinks the han. member from Trinity- Bay de Verde used and that is an accusation or an allegation of flirting with the truth.

Obviously my memory does not hold every word the han. gentleman said. There are a couple of possibilities; one,we shall have to wait until we get the tapes checked; another would be if the han. gentleman wished~and this is up to him, that he could withdraw any imputation that he might have made. I personally am not able to say now what exactly his words were so we can proceed either one or the other way. MR. NEARYi Withdraw it, Be a man and withdraw it. AN HON • MEMBER: Withdrawn. REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL CO:MMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Education . 107~ . ., ...

December 18, 1975, Taue 761 PK - 2 MR. W.HOlTSF.: Mr. Speaker, I wish to tahle the followtn~ Acts related to education; The Schools Act (Teachers' Salaries) RegulationS) 1975; The Schools Act (Transportation of PuniJ s) 1 <!75; The Confede .ration Scholarshins Re~ulation 1975, that is an amendment; The School Boards (Allocation of Monevs) Regulation 1975; The School Boards (Allocation of Moneys)(Amendment) Regulations, 1975; The Schools Act (Transportation of Pupils)(Amendment) 1975, and the Schools Act (Teachers' Salaries) Regulntions, 1975. NOTICES OF MOTION HR.

SPF.AKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housinp,. HON. A.R.PECKFO~D: l-'r. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Assessment Act." ANSI~FRS TO l'l1JF.S1'IONS FOR l<'HICH NOTICE 'HAS BEEN GIVEN (see index) ~~- SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. HON'. E. MAYNARD: >1r. Sneaker, I would like to tablP the answer to ')uestions No. 5<12 asked by the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) to the Minister of Public Horks and Services on November 24: and the ans~1er to Ouestion No. 1i06 asked by the same hon. member to the hon. the Minister of Puhlic Works and Services on the Order Paner of necemher 9, 1975. MR. SPEAKF.R: The hon. the Min1ster of Transnortation and Communications. !~ON ·.....:!.:....!:~GAN: . ~r. Spe'lker, in reply to Question 61!7 nlaced on the the Order Paner of December 5 by the hon. thP member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) The Ouest ion: Ho1~ manv aircraft does the Newfoundland Government nresentlv own?

And thE> second nart of the quest1.on: To what department are these aircraft assigned? The answer, Hr. Sneaker, is we have six aircraft, one Beach King-Air, and five Canso aircraft. The Beach King-Air is utilized as an all-weather air ambulance and a medical service vehicle, along with fittin~ the reoutrements of a transport aircraft for the use of the ministers of the Crown and the Premier and staff memb~rs and also members Crown corporations in performance of government husiness. The five Canso 1973

nE'.cemht>.r lP., 1q75 Mr. Morgan: Tape 7f>2 aircraft are used almost exclusively for forest fire suppression as required by the Def'artl!lent of Forestrv .~nc' Ap,ricul ture. H -1 Also, "r. ~peaker, in reply to <lUestion no. 67R as placerl by the same h0n. gentleman, the ll'ember for LaPo:!le (}'r. Keary), he is askjn~ the folJ mrinr. three questions •·•ith reran's to the same pro:iect. V.'hat •mrlr is he:!nr ronE' ,and what amounts are beinp: pa:l c1 to f:l~s ancl eontractors in connection , .• jtb the roac1 towards llurgeo? Also vdth ref!arcls tn surveys hE'inr compl etec1 And vhat tenilers havP. heen caJlec'.

AJ] the infoT1l'ation ,,rill be tahJecl, Yr. Speaker. ~Jso, ~·r. Speaker, for the same hon. pentleTnan, onestion 690, Orrler P11per neceTnber 10, T th:ink it Has, l'ecemher 10. To ask the hon. thf' Minister of Provincial .Aff11:irs and the Fnvironment to lily upon the t<thle of the Fouse the foJlm.•inp :lnfon1'<ttion. 'Rut actually the :infoTI!lat:icm was from '~"Y clep:1rtment. It went to thE' •··ronp: ll'inister .

Rut the question was in relation to thE' amounts in monthly totals paid to EPA or reimhursec' to ••orkers to <tnd fro!" T.ahrac'lor 1'ince .T,mnar v 1, J 074 Pith rep.arrls tC' reructi on of fares for the resi rentf' nf I nhr,.clor. The tot:1J, ''r. Speaker, is listed for each month for the past year. "T' S!'f:II.Kr.r : The hon. "inistE' .r of ''unicira1 ~ff<t:ir" nnr' Hnuf'inr . HR. MORGAN: Tnfn~ation,hov. ~·r.

Spea!-er, r ~!ish to tllhle the ;lnswer to qnest inn no. 4 77 placer on thE' 0rrer P .~per ry the hon. tl">e ll'el'lher for Port fiE' rrave (><r. n'"""), the 0rr'rr P"'T'"r of Novell' h er 74, 1975, rel<'t i nf to how '"any ll'rmufacturer' 1'1uniC'. ip <~ 1 incinerators h:'!VP h een installf.' " ' in ~-e..,founcll,._n(l :in each of the fin,.nci «1 ye<"rs 197(1-1"175, ,.•here i.n!'1tr-\J le(l, the cost of ellch, the sourc e nr s ources of tr•e cl'.pi tal co"t of e"ch such incinerator; where e!'ch such incinerator "'"s 1"~nuf'lcturec1 and >,v Hhom.

J tahle the ;1ns'''"r to th:tt nuP.stton. '~'llere are cm:ite " fe•·· p]aces.,rea]Jy, H6lyrood, n,rhcmr rrM~P.. P jnterton, Sunnvs:i<'e, Trepaf'sey, Jerseys:fc1e, Catalina, 'lonavi .sta, '( i nrs rove, East Port, VIe s ] eyvi J le, Dar~c rove, LaScie, Ba:f e "erte, ~t. C:eor~e's, 'lapkes 'Ray , ~t. Anthony, Harhour ~reton, l'.nr:in - 1974

necember 1R, 1975 Tape 762 IB-2 ~'P,. POBEllT~: Would you speak either French or English, please? }'T'. PECKFORn: Hell, I would like to - He is pr~cticing hath. MT'. PErKFOJlD: I l:l.ke to go from one to the other to just keep my verbosity more f1 exihle, dexterity of lanp.uape. - Harbour Breton, Burin, Norman's rove, Lonp, rove, Traytown, Trinity, Ronavista Bay and Gander has two, T think. Anyway in the total amount-a]] in­ cinerators were manufactured hy }!arystown Sh:l.ppinp, Enterprises, 1971 L:l.1'1ited.

An amount of $379,000 was paid to the saic1 company for actual construction costs together w:lth transportation costs to various sites. So, that is the answer to that nuestion. T 1orould also J ike to table the ans"torer to question no. 618 placed on the 0rcer Paper Pated Noverober 27 by the hon. member for Lewi.sporte ('1r. lo!'hite) who wanted to know the ~~ater ann se,~er projects and location of projects that have been neferred due to the retraint programme tha.t is no~' undenr~y in most parts of North America.

The answer is p;1.ven here in ful], the names of the places, Arnold's Cove, Berry Head, Bay L'Argent, Bishop Falls, Botwood, Carbonear, Campbellton, Change Islands, Comfort Cove, Newstead, Conception Bay South, Corner Brook, Embree, Green's Pond, Leading Tickles West, Lewin's Cove, Lewisporte, ~'arysto~~. ~assey Drive, ~elrose, Trinity Bay, ~usgrave Harbour, Norro::~n's Cove, Long rove, Placentia, Pouch rove, Spaniard's Jlay, St. 'Brennan's, St. Jacques, roomb 's Cove, GJ en~mod, Gou] Cls, Harbour Grace, Stephenvi] le f'rossing, St. Lawre .nce, and Torbay. I hereby tahle the answer to those quest:l.ons. ~.

MOl!GAN: All infonmat:lon, boy. You want information, you get all the information. No secrets over here • ....:.MR. SPJ?AKEP: The hon. "in is ter of Finance. ~~. DOODY: I have some answers to ~uestions asked by the hon. mrmber for LaPoile (~•r. Neary) who seems to be a real Cligger outer of pertinent :!.nformation. Quest:lon no. o85 on the Order Paper of Friday, December 5. D:l.d the government receive a letter of resignation from Mr. D.A. Peper, former Deputy ~inister of Finance and Comptroller of the Treasury · 1975

~Pr.emrcr 18, 1975 Jlr. _n~oE.y_:_ T ~pP 711 2 T• the ansPer tn one i.s yes, rleasE' t11hle the rorresronrlercP. T-q - J "'he <JnSI-'Pr to the f;rst pRrt is YP.S .1nd the ?.nsPer t0 rr.e SPc('ni' PA.rt is no. 1976

~- ---------------- December 18 1975 Tape no. 763 Page 1 - mw MR. DOODY: There is also Question 613 of November 27, asked hy ' the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) in which he asks how many writs have been issued under the Retail Sales Tax Act and what is the amount ou~standing? It is a very long and an involved one with a lot of financial and other implications which I am sure he will take great delight in analyzing thoroughly before he incorporates it into his book.

On Question No. 671, asked by the same hon. member, December 4: Since January 1 how many brewers licences, agents licences have been issued by the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation ·Licencing Board? The answer is 618. The detail on it is in this booklet which I attach, which not only provides him with that information but lets him know how much it costs, for instance, to obtain a licence to distribute sacramental wine. There are all sorts of vital details in here which I am sure - it is all in here - and I am sure the gentleman will have a very happy Christmas in examining the relevant details. MR.

NEARY: That is about all I will be able to afford. MR~ DOODY:_ Not according to the co-operation you are getting from your colleagues, They would be delighted to help you out. HR. NEARY: ---- - -- I would like them to give me mv $3,500. MR. DOODY: ------- They did not. Excuse me, Sir. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: - --- - The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question, I believe, for the bon. Minister without Portf6lio but perhaps one of his colleagues may wish to answer it specifically, possibly the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

Could we have a clear statement, Sir, of exactly what, if anythink, the government intend to do with respect to the widening of the Prince Philip Parkway? There have been a great number of confusing statements, and everybody is in the act from the General Hospital Corporation to the City Council to so forth. Could we have a clear statement, please, of exactly 1977

necember 18, 10 75 Tape No. 7n3 Page 2 - mw ~m . ROBERTS : what the government are going to do in this coming year to take

part in an upgrading and expansion programme for that parkway? ~·'R . CROSBl P. : ~r. Speaker, it is always grand to have an opportunity to set the Leader of the Opposition's mind at rest, if it is humanly possible to do that. . The position is quite simple and it has been expla'ined a number of times. This government instituted a new policy last September after considerable thought - }!11. STRACHAN: Yes, and actually in time for the election. J>fP.. CROSBIE: lvell, that was .1ust a coincidence. MJ'. STRACHAN : Yes. '~ . CROSRIE : After considerable thought and planning, ~r.

Speaker, to put some financial assistance for the City of St. John's,and among the assistance was a grant to the St. John's Transportation Commission to assist them, because of the heavy deficits there and to assist the customers of that system. In addition we have told the City Council that we will share in the cost of the improvements to Prince Phil i p ?arkway.

We agreed to pay half of the improvements that they had carried out in this intersection of Portugal Cove Road and Elizabeth Avenue, Macnonald Drive and that in the Prince Philip Parkway area and the Higgins Line area, where there are a lot of government buildings and the university and so on, we had agreed to pay seventy-five per cent of the cost of necessary road improvements there. We are doing that for improvements made this year and in the f uture. Now, Hr.

Speaker, they have been preparing plans of what needs to be done in that area, and they have discussed them with the Department of Transportation and Commur.ications. The work cannot be done all in one year anyway. It will have phased over three or four years, physically. IVhen it comes time for the estimates to be decided for next year, the government will decide what, if anything, the government can contribute next year towards road improvements in that area, and the City Council will have to decide what, if anything, they can contribute towards it. They will have to pay twenty-five per cent of the cost.

That will have to he considered w:!.th all the road needs of the Province for next year and when all the decisions are made ·by Cabinet on the full 1978

December 18, 1975 Mr. Crosbie. Tape no . 763 Page 3 - mw basis, the full information, then we will know what work we can help them finance for next year,if any. That is the position. We are willing and will pay seventy-five per cent of the cost, but that does not mean to say that we are going to do it all iD one year or that the City Council can afford to do it. But we realize that it is urgent and that it is work that needs to be done.

It was lack of planning in the past that has caused a lot of this, If it had been visualized in the past, the tremendous traffic artecy that Prince Philip Parkway was to become and the fact that it was cutting through the campQS and the campus would have to.expand and so on, other provisions could have been made veey cheaply ln the past, Mr. Speaker. But the probiem there now is a very, very expensive one to solve, but we will do it within the best of our financial ability. But we eannot say what work for next year until we decide on the estimates and then see if the House approves it. MR. ROBERTS : Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary. 1979

necemher lR, 1075 TaJ>C 71i4 !'!1. - 1 "'R.. __ R_flm.:!].:_ I t hanl· the m'l.ni.ster. and 1 thin! he has l aid my mind at rest . Tt sect.t.~ md te ·J.:nr t ha t rl ,i! :•.ovl"rn="cmt. nre comrllt ed t o 75 per cent of t he expenditure hut they do not just ~~hen the expenditure .,.,ill or ho~' muclo will C:M\1• ln any riven y e <~ r. PeJJ thnt i<; h 1r en">urt..

Ts ther e any contin rency involvement of the federal government, and 1 ask because t he l"i n lt; t cr is alleyed to have said or is quoted t o '·ave said that somehow t be Gove rnMent of C:anada through some department l' • l"tl •o' r ,lv< .~ xr.t' c· te•' t <' he involved In t his prc,.~rnr'l'C . ~-2J'f.A}<t R :_ ~-· _CROli!J::. : The 1-on. '~inister of ~lines and Fnerny . r;r. SpeaJ.'Pr , 1 have never s ugges ted at any moment .• nd I do not ~: r. p~· ••he ;p, , hut Jf lhc·, c1 i t1 t.hey are onite l"i"t t~kc n . t herP is a hsolutely no involvement of the Government of Canada in that proJect at all .

The cnlv thinp that they are involved in in t!le St . John's axea of that nature is a harbour arteri al road l>'hich was the' r project and that of the last administratio n's an.: ,.htci1 ~;e are carrvinl" on, and t he regional ~>'ater supply from Bo;y Bulls , ThP}' certainly have ay r!!Pd to no other involvement in roads in thP ~t. John's area, and ~Je wouJ d not .:veo dare to asl: them to do it .

Tt would he a. ~isu~e,in my oninion,of possible DREE funds . '!()1..• we f!lay in the future as!- them if t.,.e can tie t:.n some l;in<l of <'o' ,.,or 'f.~ ·•<' ·c- 1rr>ren t criteria ro p:~rtlc l)la C I! 1n sr>n•eth In " 1 il <• n rin<> road or a c n•~ s-ttnm arterial · althOujth I do not know h01~ ·a~· <• u r a h lv they ~o~ould look on it. Rut. t~e certainl y have not asl<ed ancl vill not to help in th is area here. Mr.

Speaker, n furt her snpJl leli\Cnt-.:>rv T am gla d of the hon. gentleman ' s answer but he !'li;•h t ~·<~ n t t c• H'e tod ny ' !­ T eJ~r!.a.m whic' • has a question , is he a~·are that he is rPponed to h 'l • <' t c> ld the coun c-il that it ~·c>ulci be a ferler11 l project . He rr.ay 1mnt ro tah• up the matter ~th thP rit y \.ouncil . ~:_:_._f!'~.!}l~ t~ho said? I>"R:. RORFfl_S: The .:!&egram quotes you . I mean,I do not know who said it. The hon . member fo r LaPoile. 1980

December 18, 1975 Tape 764 PK- 2 Mr. Crosbie: Mr. Speaker, look I want to answer. The Telegram cannot be quoting me because they have never spoken to me about it, and I have never said it. MR. ROBERTS: The Telegram is quoting you. I am not saying they spoke to you. MR. CROSBIE: Well they are doing the impossible. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: If the little private meeting is over now, Sir, I would like to put a question to the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications.

Would the minister tell the House if he has received any complaints in the last couple of days about the icy road conditions between Gander and Grand Falls, and along the Trans- Canada High~1ay, and if so would the minister indicate what action he has taken on these complaints? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. ·}ION, J. MORGAN : Mr. Speaker, I received one complaint only.

That was from a trucker who made a complaint to the Premier's office at Grand Falls which was relayed on to my office yesterday morning, but one complaint only, and that I think was mainly because he felt there was not sufficient salt on the road, not because the road was not salted. !1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the answer given hy the hon. minister, Sir, and I wish to debate the matter during the . late show this afternoon at 5:30. MR. MORGAN: I would love to, ----- MR.

NEARY: Sir, I have a question for the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. Would the minister indicate to the House how drastically the cutbacks are going to be in Newfoundland this year in Manpower training, especially in relation to the adult upgrading centre at Stephenville and the other adult upgrading centres around various parts of Newfoundland? How serious are the cutbacks going to be? M R. SPEAKER : The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations.

December lR, 1975 Tape 764 PK- 3 HON. E. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, there are no cutbacks in terms of the money being made available by the Federal Department of Manpower. As a matter of fact our budget will be more in terms of dollars than it was last year. It will not buy as much training. Exactly hotv much we do not know because of the installation factor, but I would assume that there •dll probably be 50,nOO m.·m-c1ays less th:i s year than there <vas last year because of the - r~ .. NEARY: How hard will it hit us?

MR. !1AYNARD: Well I cannot state it in a number of people hecause different courses take different number of days and different people take different courses. I can only state it in the number of man-days of teaching or training that will be available and there will be approximately - ~NEARY: Fifty thousand ~Till be Jost? MR. ~!AYNARD: Fifty thousand man-days lees this year than there was last year.

As well the special programme that was put for.•ard by the Department of Manpower two years ago whereby $1 million was made available in the fiscal year 1973-1974 or 1974-1975, and $2.5 million ' was made available in the fiscal year 1975-1976 for special programmes for those people drawing unemployment insurance and for some people on social assistance. That programme will terminate on March 30, and there is no indication as yet that it will be replaced by anything from the federal government. HR. NEARY: /1 supp)ementary qnestirn for the minister, Sir. MR. ~EAKER: The hon. member for Lapoile. 1982

December 18, 1q75. Tape 765 RH - 1 MR.m:ARY: Could the minister spP.cifically deal with the adult upgrading centre in Stephenville~ Does he know now how drastically that operation out there is going to be cut back? ~IR. l>'.AYNARD : No, Hr. Speaker, I cannot give the hon. member any specific details relating to the adult centre as such. But I will attempt to get that information and possibly answer it at seme future date. MR . SPEAKEF.: The hon. member for Rurgeo-Bay d'F.spoir. MR. R. SIMMONS: Hr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Manpower.

He made reference to the special programmes over the last couple of years, the upgrading programmes. I wonder would he indicate 1-rhether his depart­ ment has made any representation to Ottawa to have these programmes - I am thinking of the one in the head of Bay d'Espoir, for example- to have these orogrammes continue beyond Harch 31 ,and if so 1-rhat response has his department had from Ottawa? ~. SPF.AKF.R: The han. ~inister of l>'anpower and Inoustrial relations. HR. HAYNARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have made representation.

The officials of the department have made representation both on the regional and the national level. I made a special trip to Ottawa approximately a month ago and had a ~eeting with Mr. Andras to discuss this problem with him because it is going to leave a large gap in the training that we have been ahle to do over the past few years. The minister was fairly sympathetic to the argument that we put forward. However he did not give us any indication that the programme would be continued.

He said that there may be some possibility of another programme similar to it after the end of this fiscal year. flmvever I understand since that time that the Department of Hanpower and Immigration's budget has been slashed very drastically and I would doubt very much whether we will get a positive response from him But we have not as yet received an official response to the requests that ~.re have made. }ffi . SPEAKER : A supplementary? HR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of 1983

necember 1n. 1~75 . Mr. Simmons Tape 7f>'> "I' - :? Jnrh,I.Stri.nl nevelopment . I lvondcr would he indicate '"hethP.r 1-fs tasr force or Hhlltr.v cr. "-fs committee looldnp: fnto the nm:~eo fish 1"l11nt s1tullti.on hn~ yet r.-ported to '•tn an<\ j f so i.f he could in<\icate "'hat the flnt!i.nP.s C>f the cotnrlittee ;o~>d the recotrmP.ndntions of the commi.ttee ll·re? The answer is yes, ~ir.

A sunnlell'ertary, "r . !':peaker . '.lould the mintster ind1cl'lte 1·1hat the fir.di n ~s of the commi.ttce are or what their recomrncndatinn!l arP insofar as a fish plant in 'lunreo is concerned? ~~r.rr.A'' · Sir, 1 will he able to anake that l;ind of nn i.ndiciltion 11oon. 1-(r . SPl\A!{F.!': Tloe hon. member for P.xpJo:ft~. ~m . sr:·::tm•s: Hould the minister- a supplencntary, a suppl6111('ntllry, "r . Sl'leilt·pr ! •rr.. Sl'ri\KFR: '1e vi.elds 1 ~. ~lHI''flNS: I ~ sorry . 1 recognized the hon . member for ~xploi t s Unless 1 can onlv recopn ize one nt a time .

A furthP.r supplenent11rv to the 'linister of Tntlustri11l 'le vel on- l'l(':'lt . •~nultl ;,':! i.!l<lic:ltP iust 1101·t soot" l•r is ;-o)ne to do t'1is nnci will hf! he <loinr it thron!\h n puhlieannounc ement or t 11ro1111,h a l'linistE'ri:ll statement in t he ''o\ase or ~01,•? ,.,,P ~n!N~r. <-i r. is ve rv <~oon . flh, core off i r ! '": . l.li' !JII'lrA fl : llnv much dC> vnu ~mnt: ><~ . S:'F.\Kf'l" : 111e lion. mel'li:<>r for rx-p I oits. l '!L )fl'J.RI"m lEY: Mr. Speaker, a question tro the MinistE'r of !:dt1cati.on .

Would the l'inister of Fducation inForm t he l'ou se w"-et'trr or not "-~ is :1\·)(!t:'e that the !>resent svstcn of "larkinp. puh 1 ic examinations in this T'rovincc 1 :ln vi.e"' of t!lc detrlme ntnl effects it has on the future l ivcs of our students - :~ • SPRAI'F.r. : Order, pleas e! 1 should call to the hon . r.entlem11n's attention t' ~ at in askinp. questions the inforrnntion IJe is s eel-inP e~ntl he mily put :in

December 18, 1975. MI:. Speaker. Tape 765 RH - 3 information necessary for the understanding of the question 1 but not opinions one way or the other. MR. MULROONEY: Mr. Speaker, could I rephrase the question,then? lffi. SPEAKF.R: Certainly. Mr.. MULROONEY: Could the Minister of Education state whether or not he is aware of injustice being done to the students under the present marking system? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister,of Education. 110N. W. HOUSE: Hr. Speaker, the matter of marking public examinations, the matter is always open to questions, always under review.

I have not been made aware by any student that he has suffered any injustice,and there are steps that he can take if he thinks he has suffered an injustice. He can make representation to the department, and none ·has been made. MR. SPFAKER: A supplementary. MR. }1l)LROONF.Y: l-lr. Speaker, I wish to state that I am not satisfied with the answer and I wish to debate it during the late show under Standing Order number 31(g). MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoiile. MR. NFARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question, Sir, to the Hinister of Fisheries.

Would the minister inform the House if he has yet selected the community for the pilot pro1ect to promote quality of fish through new m"'thods of contai .nerization and freezing and so on? HON. lv. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, the answer to that question is no. MR. NEARY: !•Tell, a supplementary, Sir: Could the minister indicate when he will be making an annoucement on the selection of this community? MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, soon. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. HR. T. LUSH: l!r. Speaker, a question to the Minis1:er of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

In view of the high capital cost of installation of water and sewer services in many parts of Newfoundland, particularly the rural areas, I wonder if the minister is in a position to tell the House if his depart­ ment has considered an alternative method which is being promoted and 1985

f~ll - 4 Mr. Lush. Pncnur:tf'f'd "t this pnrtj cular time hy Professor. Evans at tht? ~ · ni v<'rsi tv 11n<1 t'hich on tl1e. surf11ce ''IC'HJl·l ,-,nne.gr to have some dtst i nct 11nrl cJpfinit<: arlwmtages for t~1is Province. T r.efpr snecific;;.l1y to thP hnmu,; to]]et. 1986

December 18, 1975 Tape no. 766 Page 1 - mw HR. SPEAKER: MR. PECKFORD : The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Well, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to waste any words on answering that question, but I have had some discussions and correspondence with the gentleman mentioned who was promoting the idea, both through him and through the city of St. John's whom he has been working with to try an experiment and also to try an experiment in another part of the Province.

We are presently negotiating and looking into and reviewing that with the hope that in the Spring we can do a number of experiments with that humus toilet to see just how effective it would be in different sizes of communities and this kind of thing to see whether it can be actually implemented on a larger scale. So we have had correspondence with him. I have talked to him in my office, and we hope to be able to do some experiments with this new concept in the Spring of 1976. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Could the minister give us an update report on the current position of the government on the arterial road? What percentage is the Province paying and the federal government paying? Do you intend to go ahead with it, to complete it, and to where? MR. SPEAKER: MK: MORGAN : The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, I will take notice of that question and give the information on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: l1R. NEARY: The hon. member for LaPoile. Sir, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries.

I wonder if the minister could bring the House up to date on what is happening now in connection with updating the Federal Unemployment Insurance programme for fishermen and what is happening in connection with the Income Support programme for fishermen? Does the minister have any late communications fro• Ottawa, correspondence or anything that he could tell us in connection with this programme? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the federal }tinister of Fisheries announced during his visit to the Province some time ago that he would 1987

iJecember Ul, 1975 Tape no. 766 Page 2 - mw Hr. Carter. be introducing, I believe be said before this present session of parliament ends, the necessary legislation to initiate an Income Support programme for fishermen. We have talked to the minister about this, and we have suggested to him that if the prograunne is going to be delayed for any length of time that the government consider amending the present U.I.C. Act and have the effect of making it more equitable as far as our fishermen are concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for ilurgeo -Bay D'Espoir. HR.

SHIMONS: A question for the Minister \vithout Porfolio in the absence of the Premier and the Minister of Public Works. Would the minister indicate to the House whether the government has taken any decision now on the provision of additional office space for the public service? MR. SPEAKER: MR. WELLS: MR. SPEAKER: HR. SUiMONS: The hen. Minister without Portfolio. No de cis ion l1as yet been made. TI1e hen. member on a supplementary. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the same minister.

Would the minister indicate whether the government has arrived at any agreement, either a formalized agreement or a verbal agreement with the Trizec people concerning the provision of office space? ~ IR. WELLS: MR. SPEAKER: l1R. SUlJIIONS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIHMONS: No agreement has been entered into at all with Trizec. The hon. member for Conception Bay South. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I hav e recognized one hon . gentleman so it is up to him if he yields. A further supplementary to the minister.

Would he indicate whether there have been any recent discussions - when I say recent, over the past two, three or four months-with the Trizec people concerning the provision of office space downtown? MR. WELLS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. NOLAN: No, there have been no such discussions. Tite hon. member for Conception Bay South. He gave up his turn and yie:ded to the hon. gentleman. I was just recognized by the Speaker. 1988

December 18, 1975 Tape no. 766 Page 3 - mw MR. SPEAKER: He may have given up his turn at the time but he has been recognized now. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speake~ this question is to - MR. NEARY: They are all learning to be as nasty as their leader. .JOME RON, H.EMBERS: Oh, oh ! MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTs: MR. NEARY: ~!R. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: Order• please! Order! Order! It is bloody awful. Rell has no fury like a woman scorned. There are four there now. Order, please! 1& it okay to ask a question now, Mr. Speaker? MR. DOODY: Go ahead 'John 1 • SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NOLAN: You owe me a teabag Steve. Mr.

Speaker, this question is to the Deputy Premier or possibly to the House Leader. The member for St. John's West (Mr. Crosbie), 1 understand is the Deputy Premier. It seems to me that today I heard something on the air about the Japanese and the Shaheen enterprises. I am wondering if one of the gentlemen can clarify the situation on this matter? Is there something current that the House should know concerning financing of the refinery? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh , oh! MR. NOLAN: If it is, will you please tell us? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I better first clarify this.

There is no Deputy Premier. }!R. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NOLAN: MR. CROSBIE: Hear, hear! When the Premier is gone - Speak up! - when the Premier is gone there is an Acting Premier, and the Acting Premier at the moment is me or usually is me. I 1989

l'~cernher IF, 1975 Tape 767 S0~'E 110N. ~'r:YTJFPS: l'e<>r! He<>r! V". "Tfl~RlP : Thank you. ""P. NOLJ\N: Bev<Jre the Ides of ~arch.

TF-l Just a hdef !'lament of pJory,nr it mirrt he the Y.ini.ster of .Tnstice or the ":inister of F:f.nance. ~ . t the moment it is t'le. ~ror,, as far as the Japanese :>re concerneil, as far as the sitmlti<'n Fi th tre oil refinery is concerne<', you knovr,there is stiJl no sett]ement of the prol,]em ilcwn there a]thougb it is HfJJ heinr; ner.oti<~ter' • .A ll we can ro, the rovernJT1ent can <'lo,is "'ait ;mc1 see 1•!hPt arr<>n~ernents are flnaJJy come to hetHeen t}ds Japanese cre<'litnr <'n<'l the r..r.r.n. principaJJy >1nil the Sh;oheen or~;mization the111seJves. That is still beinr; l>orke<' on.

The refinery is operating there. He understand that their operation is il'lprnvinr;. They ha'7P h <'r sol"e proh]em 1dth the hyclrcren plant ;mil other wcrl' that thev h;1r to rn clur:inr the last three or fo11r r.~onths.

It is snppnser t.o he operating T'lDre s<~tisfactorilv physicallv. 1'.nt ·pe >1re ;ust not in any posiUon to, you 1·ncn?, rive T'l<'rc cetails untH this i!" finally conclut'ler. llnt it is heinr . •mrh•c' nn. .~s n m:>.t ter of f.1et tl ' e Japanese fent lel'lan ,.·as in tonc"h l>itl1 !"e tld s rnorninr. \·!hi.le T no not "'inr pi.\•inr, in fo!'l'lation privC~tcl y to hon. rent 1 el'len, th0re :is notldn f' 1.\'C c<1n S<ly pHhlic'~· he~ause it is a rle .lic.ote situ11tion naturally .

"h<>re is nothinr to report at the mo~ent. 1'1'. ~PE~.YET': "'l•e ~1on. l'le.m,.,er for Le.l'nj]c (''r, ''e"ry) . ''T' ~ ; TIV : vr. fpe?l ~e r, I l-,f1,•e .~ Ollestjon for the l'nn. 1'inist.er of VjneR pnd IPerP:v. n~n1rl the rnin:ister indjcate to tlle 1:ou~e ~ · ·l10t is ll<Jpp<>ninp ne>''' in connection •··ith the rr.urchill T'nlls of~ice in "ontreal ~ Ts :it rninp to he closecl tlol·m and the hea(l e>ffi c.e movecl to ~t. John's? Ph<'lt is the pnvernment's position nn this "ffic.e now, this situ.-..ti0n? ~m. ('Po<;p.Tf: Yo11 rtean the rrr,ro officE,? Fel] tl•e position em the cn..ro office, ''r.

Spefll'er, :!s that that office Pas left in ""ntrefl~ Pl1en tl'e governl"'ent acrmirec' the controllinr-: shares r>f cn.r.o <~nt'l it is stilJ 1990

ne ceroher 1~, 1975 Mr. Crosbie: Tape 76.7 IB-2 there because there seemed to he some nee.d to leave it there and also there was some - ~re could not disturb a] 1 the personnel that were there. Some of the~ ~ay have wanted to leave, had we moved the office to St. John's immediately. But it is our intention to move the CLFCo office to St. John's. Just Rmen that will be I cannot say for sure but within the foreseeable future, within the next - ~'R • NEA"'Y : Hear! HeaJ;"! 1·~R. CROSBIE: Well it 't-7ould be Clanp.:erous to say the next few months but it w:f.ll be moved here.

Now in connection with the Lower Churchill project,the delay that has been announced means that we. have a chance now to have a good look at what we are ~oing to do in connection with the Lower Churchill project 1 because there was an office of consultants and so on in l"'ontreal. It is our intention when this project proceeds in full again that we are ~oiny. to have the l'lain offices here in connection "~>lith the project. lf it is i-nconvenient for contractors and suppliers they will have to put up with it. But they will all be moved here in the fairly near future. .lT.. NEAP.Y: Hear! Hear! ~<J>.

SPEAKEP: The han. J,eader of the Opposition. m. 'RORE:RTS: A rmestion for the ~'inister. without Portfolio. Could the minister. indicate Whether the government have opened a branch of the off:!ce of the Premier, or the Premier's office in the LabradoT part of the Province? }'J'. SPEAKF.R: The han. )'!inister without Portfolio. 'F . HELLS : Na,we have no knowledge of any such office, )'!r, ~peaker, in that area. ~·n.. SPEAKEll: The han. member - MJ.. CROSBIE: Hold it. MR. lUCKMAN: No, hold on there. Hold on now. Jv!R.

SPEAKEP.: I thouRht the hon. gentleman had completed his answer. ~W. t.rnLLS : Hithin the last three weeks or month the Premier ha·s 1991

PeceM~er In, 1n75 ~1r. HelLs: Tnpe 767 nrenec:l :m off)C"e i n napry 1'al,1ey,T. 31'1 i.nfnt'l"e(l. !.,., , SPfMF.P: The hon . mPmher for J,l\l'oi)e ("r . Nenry ). 1'1'. NEII"Y: '~'he ~·:fntster c-f !nterrC"vernrt>rt~l •ffa:!rs •. I ill'agine. r:C'Iul.c! the minister tell us Phen - 1 bep. yC'Iur parc'on? ~~en nre you r.ettinr an offict'?

T!\-1 1"1'. :mAJ!Y: As soC'In as t he come l'remi er T ~·ill h~ve an office do11-n there,~<ilic~ \odll not he 11'\Jch Jonrer l <'o not think. 1lC'InJrl t he Jdnister tell the l'ouse if rhe s•C'Ivernment 'ln tencls to proceer' alonp the lines of sett:!np up I' ~;eparate J')ep:ITt!'!Cnt of rongtl!"er "f':~i rs or 1s it !'Oinr to expancl the PepnTt'l':ent of !'rovinci a l .,.Ff<>irs ~>nc1 exran<' the constmer 'lranch of t'>at !it'pnrtlfte!lt? 'T. CP0~RIF: That nuesr.:!on hi's been under stu r'y aru! thP "rf'l"iPT '·:ts appointec1 a cn,.....i trt't> of persons to sruc!y that.

T rh:fnl : the rP.por t is in thr ""'r'•s sc-l!'e.:!\ere 1-!ut it l•as not co~e he:"nre ~flvern,.,cnt vet. So l (1l!l not sure ~·hnt the Hnal. conclusion is r.oinr. tfl "<' "ut theTe i~ :> rppnrt iu~tt al)out to corne tCI r.overnment nnd prestll"abty the re will t e aC"tion in the ne::ott few ~·eeks or a month cr t~1o . 1992

necemher 18, 1975 Tape No. 768 1\'M - 1 MR. NEARY: ~r. Speaker - ~W. SPF.AKF.R: A supplementary? NR. NEARY: No, Sir, it is not a supplementary. J"R . SPF.AKER: Correct. Then I recognize the hon. gentleman, and then I recognize the hon. gentleman from Fogo. NR. NEARY: }lr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Minister d. Health, Sir. Would the minister indicate to the House what action his department has taken on statements that have been made by the Drug and Alcohol Foundation that there is a high rate of alcoholism amongst the unemployed in this Province'?

Does the minister have any programme to deal '~th this matter? What action has the government taken on this matter? ~ffi. SPF.AKF.R: The bon. Minister of Health. m!. COLLINS: ~fr. Spe.aker, we have received a report from some people who are involved in that particular organization. A report came in T think about t'vo or three days ago ,and 1 s noN being studied by the officials of the department and hopefully we will get some recommendations from them. ~ ~. S'PF.AKF.R: The hon. member from Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: ~r. Speaker, a question to the han. Minister of Tourism.

Would the minister confirm or deny whether or not he has received an offer for the purchase of the Norma and Gladys from a Caribbean company? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.·Minister of Tourism. MR. DOODY: Take it. Take it. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have received no offer and there is no point in anyone making one. That is right. AN RON. MEMBER: It is not for sale. YR. HICKEY: There is not enough money to buy it. MR. SPF.AKl'.R: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. }ffi. SIMMONS: Hr. Speaker, a <JUestion for the Minister of Tourism 0 I refer in a ')Uestion to the present road map, the present batch of road maps.

I wonder would the minister indicate whether the maps were printed in the Province and if so where1 ~IR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~'inister of Tourism. 1993

necemher 18, 1975 Tape No. 768 ::!":_,_l!_Ir.KE_J_:_ You knm,•, ~!r. Speaker, when the House last sat this matter <oas discussed~or t think it was raised by v1av of l'lu.,stion and 1 answered tt then. T will repeat it for the benefit of the hon. gentleman. That Has the one and only contract for printing '"hich 1vas let outsi .rle the Province and it "as let outside the Provlnce l)ecause of a differential of somcth \ ng 1 ike $lfi ,000 between that bid and tl,e next lo"'est. ~-.S lJ.'J' n ~ · s: "r.

Speaker, a supplementary for the minister, Can he indicate to the House <-'hether the printers •·•ho supplied the joh have si nee been r.eimhursed for the perfonnance of their work? ~·P. SPEAKER: The hon. Mjnister of Tourism. '1"!. HICKEY_: Hr. Sreaker, 1 have heard some rumours. I hear they are not paid. T cannot say for sure. T could only express the hope thAt they are and in doinr, that at the same time point out th.:~t if thev are not there is certainly no responsibility on the nerartment of Tour i sm as the people with whom ~·e have dealt 1-1ith have hecn paid and that end!'l nur responsih-tlitv. "r ..

SIJ.1J'.f(l~S: ~·r. Speaker, I gather then from the minister's ans, ,•er that the contract Has not rlirectly betv1een h1.s department or the !(OVernment and the rr:lnter or the outsirle nrinter. Woulcl the mi.nister indicate then for tl,e information of the House just what arranpement transri reel, ..rho •·•en• the go-hetNeens, ww had the contract 1d tr the rovernm<'nt for the re rformance of the 1-1ork ;md the second - 1~1?11 I wi 11 raise the second ou'' " tion after. ~~-~~I'AK~R: TIH~ '•on. '·'1.nister of Tourism. ':.r!..~.B.!.C.!5..f:~: '1-t:-. Speaker, that is aln~acly a matter of record.

The firm of r.ahot C'roup 4 11hich - ~·.P~TI'!·<()~~: f\h! '"'h! ''R . Hlr.KFY : - came i.n for quite a bit of controversy 1 ast year <·ras the f.irm that dealt ... ,i.th the governmcnt,and dealt with the r.c,vernment ,.,;_ th rep,arrls to that issue and also r;ome other hrochures, and 1 am adviscd~anrl l have in fact satisfied myself~that the otl,cr nrintin!( •·ms done in the Provincc>. This :Is the onlv one that \las done outside 1994

ne·cember 18, 1975 Tape No . 768 NM- 3 JIIR. HICKEY: the Province and there was really no alternative but to award the contract in this instance, even though we knew at the time before making the award that indeed the printing would be done outside the Province because there was a differential of something like $16,000 and I would not want the hon. gentleman to quote me on the figure exactly. I can check and gl;!t the e~~ a!llOUnt but it is somewhere in the area of $16,000. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker - Ml • . SPEAKER: This shall have to be the final question answered.. The bon. ~mber for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir.' MR.

SI1"1-IONS: A further supplementary on the subject to the same minister~ I understood, first of all,that the government has honoured its cont -ract ~dth Group 4 and has paid out the full a!llOunt. I also understand that the printers have not been paid and I believe the minister indicated this is his knowledge as well~or he may understand this is the case, this is the rumour he has heard, Would the minister indicate whether his department under the -terms of contract have any control over this matter insofar as insuring that the printer is paid for the oustanding amount? MR. HICKEY: No, ~r. Speaker.

Unfortunately if this is the situation and, I repeat that I have no accurate infornation that it is. I want to repeat again, I have only heard it by rumour. It would be wrong for me not to acknotdedge in fact that I have not heard the rumour, but I can say that there is nothing the Department of Tourism or indeed any other department can do where this kind of situation arises unless the people who are owed the money ~~ere to be in touch "'ith the department or with the government before the cheques are iasued from the Department of Finance. 1995

December 18, 1Q75 Tape 769 }'K- 1 OKDERS Of" THE !JAY MR . SPEAKER : Order 10. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Empower The St. John's t1unicipal Council To Raise A Loan For Municipal Purposes By The Issue Of Bonds." (No. li). MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. RON. A. B. PECKFORD: This is a fairly routine bill, although when one looks at the amount of money involved perhaps it is rather dangerous to say routine, Rut it is and it is giving authority to the St. John's City Council to raise a loan through the issue of bonds for the amount of $10 million.

The major amount of this $10 million is to be used for financing the parking garage downtown that they had agreed to earlier in the overall proposal for the hotel and parking garage down near the waterfront. So I think something around $9 million is to be used out of the $10 million for that purpose, and that was in the commitment that the City Council - an agreement that the City Council had at the time when this whole project was being entered into, and was going ahead. And the other $1 million is to be used for normal municipal purposes by the city. Under the City of St.

John's Act and so on it is neces s ary for the House to approve through,as a bill of this kind,in order to authorize the city to do this, to raise this $10 million, and these are the purposes for which it is to be used, and there is little more, Mr. Speaker, that I can add to it. The detail is there setting out exactly how they go about it and so on. So having said that the $10 million is to be primarly used for the parking gara ge .which was entered into by the city, I would move second reading. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Lewisnorte. ------- MR. F. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to say a few words about this particular bill. We of course here are going to vote for this, }'r. Speaker. It was not ny understanding that this $10 million was goin g to be used for the parking garage. I talked with some of the City Council people and it was my understanding that some of it was going to be used for upgrading within the city and some of 1996

December 18, 1975 Tape 769 PK - 2 Mr. White: it to be used for the capital works projects on the Summer Games, the 1977 Summer Games. It is also my understanding, Mr. Speaker, this passage of this bill does not give the City carte blanche to go and borrow the $10 million, and that the Lieutenant-Governor in Council still has authority to issue at appropriate times when they want to go to the market. It is also my understanding that the city can go to the market on their own and probably in some cases get a better interest rate than the City of St. John's - or than the government would.

I just wanted to make one comment,It sort of irks me that the kind of money that is going to be spent on the 1977 Summer Games is going to be spent, A few years ago when it was announced it was okay because we did not foresee then the kinds of cutbacks in municipal services in Newfoundland that we had seen. And in my district several projects have been cutback recently as we all know and in other districts throughout the Province as well. If the time several years ago were now I would certainly not want money going into Summer Games in St.

John's or even into a parking garage­ but of course the government has got nothing to do with that- but certainly into the Summer Games. I ~rould not want to see it go into the Summer Games when we have projects deferred throughout the Province, but we will support this bill, Mr. Speaker. AN !HON. MEMBER: Rear, hear! MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I just want - AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. PECKFORD: Oh, I am sorry. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's East. MR. W. W. MARSHALL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there is one observation I would like to make about the bill and ask a question of the minister with respect to it.

In Section (7) - first of all this is a bill, of course,authorizing as the minister says the City Council to borrow $10 million. And Section (7) of the bill says, that the council may establish a sinking fund for the redemption of bonds if other than 1997

Tape 769 PK - 3 Hr. Marshall: serial bonds. Now I just pose this question to the minister as to the advisability , and if it is possible or whether it should be t hat the word "may' sho t~.ld be ''shall", in other words to require the City Council to establish a sinking fund for the retirement of the monies that it borrows and whether this is possible, whether it is advisable, and I would ask him 1998

ne cemhe r 18, 1975 Tap e 770 IB-1 ~lt. ~l.arshall: if he would just direct his attention to it because there is so~ewhat of a danger. I know the.re is n Jot of w.oney that :!s needed to run the city of St.

John's,or any l!lUII:Icipal:lty,and ~re must borrow,hut there certainly :Is 11 rlanJler of any local r,nvernmPnt or provincial government.,or for that matter any entity borrow:lnp; without being :forced to provide for a sinking fund itself. otherwise you are going to find that they are only paying interest on the bonds, and after a long period of time there is an astronomi.cal amount owed which is going to he a burden on the taxpayers of the Province. ~"'. SPEAJ<E'R: The hon. member for LaPoile (~!r. Neary) • !"'P. NEARY: ?'r.

Speaker, I was not quite sure, Sir, if I hac" hearc the m:!nister correctly so I went across the !Tottse there when my bon. and le11rnerl fr:!.end was making his fe~' remarks to check tl1e point to see if I had heard h:!m correctly, when the min:l.ster said that $9 l't:l] J :1 on of th:!.s amount that is going to be borrowed by the City of St. John's is to be usecl for the construct:f.on of a parking garage. The minister confirmed that J had heard him correctly, $9 million. Fell, Sir, this Rouse he.s ,. great opportunity now in :Its hands to rescue the people of St.

John's, the taxpayers of St, John 1 s~from havlng this aJbat.ross a.round its neck forever anc1 ever. Because there is no way, "'-'r. Speaker, that parking ga'l:'<~ge ia going to pay, no way, There is not one in North !merica that is paying, We have a great opportun:l.ty, Sir, to ma.l~e the City of St, John's proCI\l.ce the tax- produce the facts and figures to show that they can amortize the loe.n for this parking garage. I do not thinl{ they can, Sir. l<Te would be doing a great servi~e to the people in the City of St.

John 1 s if we saved the111 from thls expenditure, j f ~·Je forced the council to stop this fool ish ·nonsense of build:!nR a parking garage in downtown ~t. John's that tvHl never pay for :ltseJf, that the tax­ payers of th;l.s City will )le called upon to subsidize in increased taxes. I clo not know ho~7 committed the City :1 s to this project, Sir. 1999

Tane 770 11'·-2 ~P. l,niiTE: "'hev rtrP. hon1·e~. "" 1TEA!lY: ranlon? ~'Jl. ~'THITl',: They <'lre 110okec'. ~fT". W.Ar : Thev ;>re hoolrecl? They are h.ookecl on :It? ~Tc-,thev are not hooker] on it, Sir, because the people ,.,ho ar.e constructing Atlantic 'Place have changer' the p;round rules s)nce they startet' that hotel c-ffice hnilrli.np: <lovmtovm. '!'here ,.,as a secret meet1ng - MR. MURPHY: It is three-fourth's built now.

""·. ~!F.Al>Y: I l<nm·Y ,hnt the ori!!inal c'eal, the grounc rules have been chan~ed suhstanU al J y. rN is no longer. roing to hecor.~e invc-1 vecl in it. r~• <>re p-o:lng to stay ~·here they are ,apparently~do~'Tl. in !To tel ~l eHfounrlJ and. '"' l'l'"PHY: It is the parkin!' rara~e '"e are talk:l.n~ about. That is what T "m taJkinF: about. But the parkin!' parage was a part of the packape d"al WI'S :!t not? .h'l 1-lflN. "D'B~'l': Yes. 'Tl'. r!EAl'Y: f'ure . it •·•as. It ,,.as a. part nf the deal that ,.ras !T'arle T·dth the r;eople . !·nn are construct:!nr.

Atlantic Place :In ret1.1rn fC'r cert11Jn C"Dnress:ions and cert<>.:ln rleals and arrangements that the huiJders of Jt];mtic "lace wc-uld l!et a r>arking gara?e, free gratis ;me' for nothing r>roviclec' by the City of St. John's, hy the people of St. John's. TaM ap,ainst it, Sir, an~ Jam gnin~ to vote a~ainst this hill nc-. 15, An l'ct To Further Amen~ The t::lt" Of St. John's Act that Hil J pass !':~ MiJ] :ton or nnthor:!ze the City to horro<Y $9 million for. a parl<inr; p.;arage. ''P. f'llP.PilY: l'i Jl nn. 6. 'IP. NEAl'Y: Oh f, :Is it. Sorry. l<'ell whatever hHl H :Is I have it l1ere somephere in front of me.

Rut T am oppose~ to it, Sir. I think the people of St. John 1 s ~'ouJ d he ever p:ratefuJ to t}Je wembers of this Pause, especially the electec' representatives that represent St. John's r'l:lstr:l.cts, they w·ould be ever grateful. The minister is shaldng h:ls hea~ in approval- the memher is shl".ldnp h:ls head in approval. If we S:lbotape~ thts thin!", mane the!" stor> this fnoJ ish 2000

r>ecemher 18, 1q75 Mr: Neary: Ta-pe 770 nonsense, this extravagance and waste. IB-3 There is no Hay it can pay, ~·r. Speaker. I have ~one a lHtle research rryself. I Cl:l~ H a year anc a half <~go <?hen they started this foolish nonsense. I found out, S:lr, that there is not 11 parkinr; g:u11ge on the North Am.er:l.can continent that is p;,yin<? its 1-my. MR. WHITE: That is the City's problem. 2001

December 18, 1975 Tape no. 771 Page Mr. Neary. This is not the city's problem, it is our problem. Here we are authorizing a bill to give them the powers to borrow. MR. DOODY: Would the hon. member permit a question? Were you not aware of this when Her Honour the Mayor wrote you that letter of recommendation during the election? - mw MR. NEARY: I have been aware of it, Sir, since the City Council adopted the motion to approve this project. It has nothing to do with the relationship between Her Worship and myself. I think the world of her, Sir. I think the world of her. I love her.

I want the whole world to know that I love Dottie. In the next election - I wore out a pair of shoes in LaPoile when I was campaigning, a new pair of shoes, and I will wear out two pairs to try to get Dottie re-elected. That does not necessarily mean, Sir, that I approve of all the policies that are embarked upon by the City Council. I am against this, Sir, and I think it is a great opportunity for members of this House to show their objection to this piece of foolish nonsense that is being carried on by the city. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): close the debate. If the hon. member speaks now he will HR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, in reply to the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr. White) where he said he had communication or discussions with some of the city councillors, as I understand it, as the Department of Municipal Affairs understands it, the bulk of the money, specifically $9 million,is to be used for that parking ~ATA~~. Th~ other $1 million eould possibly be used for financing of different projects for the Summer Games. As I understand it, it is $9 million and $1 million making it $10 million that we are authorizing here today. As far as the comments of the hon. member for St.

John's East is concerned (Mr. ~~rshall) I think he brought up a very relevant point relating to

Section 7. I think we better leave it like it is right now as 1 may~ but I certainly will, seriously, discuss this with my officials 2002

December 18, 1975 Tape no. 771 Page Hr. Peckford. and with officials of City Hall,and hopefully if it is in the best interest of everybody, especially the government, I would suggest to change that to 'shall! Then we will make appropriate amendments later to do just that.

I think it is a good point, and I will seriously consider it. 2 - liiW As far as the remarks of the hon. member for LaPoile are concerned, as I understand the whole si.tuation relating to the parking garage and so on that there is an agreement that the city had entered into to provide assistance for the building of this parking garage as part of the whole complex. I do not know what~ if one wanted to get into his comments in detail~what we would do if this was cancelled. There would be a fair amount of penalty clauses or compensations would have to be paid under the agreement.

The city have satisfied themselves on the situation, and I do not think we have much choice now but to go ahead and authorize them to borrow the $10 million. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Empower The St. John's Municipal Council To Raise A Loan For Municipal Purposes By The Issue Of :Bonds, "(No. 6) read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House by leave. On motion of the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The City of St. John's Act," (No.15) read a first time, ordered read a second time now by lea.ve.

Motion second reading of a bill "An Act Further To AD!end The City of St. Johri 1 s Act." (No. 15). 2003

necember 18, 1975 Tape No. 772 "" - 1 JfJ?. PF.C.Kl'ORD: 'M'r. Speaker, this amendment t-o the C:ity of St. John's Act is onP. that the city council has requested no,.; in line ~dth their net-r budget because there are a number of changes under the act <'hich directly effect the policies laid down by the city council in their budget.

The explam1torv notes in the act details the major provisionR here, The first one is a subject that has heen of fairly great controversy in the city for the past num~er of years and that is payment to cound J lors for their 1vork as councillors or the "ayor as Mayor and so on. >\nd up until noo! the act has stated, se~tjon 22 of the act, tho>t il sum not exceeding $50,0~'1 shall l-e i'llocated and set asidE' annually as from January 1, 1Q70 out of the funds of the city for the nurpoRe of payment to the ~~ayor ;md councillors in monthly installments as remuneration for their services in sud. amounts as the eonndl hy resolution shall determine.

So th1s House has authorized thE' city of St.

John's to spend the total amount of S50,000 for the payment to councillors anrl the Mayor and thev could determine Hhat the. formula ,.·ould he,but the m.aximum ~:as $50,000, He arf' chan!!jnp. that no··• to rivE' the council the power to pav thE'mselvE's Phat thE'v c!eern apnropriate, that the hon, Hou«c or trc.> "i.ni.ster of Municipal Affairs or ,,,ha tever should not perhaps have that po•·•er, put the pm·.•er 1n tl-Je h;mc!,; of the elected officials of the council and they dll determine ''hat they should be paid in line 11ith their hudgE't:try restraints or •·•hateveor thev have 1.n their hudp.,Pt. <;o that i.~ a r;,thr·r major chanpe in the bill that I am presenting here no"' for second readin!'.

The second one d<,als with any ne•; streets that are not alreadv nav<>c! 1n the> city that '<ill be pe.ved in the future 1 and any !'tre>etR that clo not hav<> curl- and guttf'r but will be installing curb and gutter in the future, at t'1e ccst of im;tallinr, tJ:,.ose faciliti.es on the streets that do not alreadv have them will be recovered throup-h a cost put ap.,ajnst the land m-mers along that street, hoth sides of tl1at street. !l•.mcrs of adiacent land in the manner provided,and if anybody ha< scanned throur:

l) it essP.nti.:tlly that i.s "hat :It m<>.ans, so that the cost HHl hf' 2004

necember 18, 1975 Tape No. 772 m·~- z ~ lR. PECKFORD: borne equally~or whatever,eoually by the land o~'ners along the street that is being paved or along the street where curb and gutters are going to he placed. Thtrd)y the bill ~10uld empm;er the city to set up a Parks and Recreation Commission. This one the city has been agitating for some time and under the act no~~ we are now goin.~ to give them the poper to so create a Parks and Recreation Commission. Up to now thev have not had that power. The council had the pm·!er by by-law to establish a Parks and Recreation Commission to he knmvn as the St •.

Tohn' s Parks and l!ecreatton Commtssion, comprised of not more than twelve members, three of whom shall be members of council. And (

b) to regulate the manner in which the St. John's Parks and Recreation Commission shall function and to define its powers and duties. So we are now giving the city,and I think they are eager to move ahead on this and to establish this Parks and Recreation Commission. That is the third thinp; that the. bill does. And fourthly 1 and importanly for the city now in line with its new budget as is set down in the explanatory notes, the bill will also empot->er the council to fix interest payable on overdue taxes and assessments and remove the existing obligation to give di~counts. Under the old act, under the secti_on of the act that now exists,

section 274, the council could give discounts if taxes were paid at a given time. And they want to remove that discount principle from the act altogether and furthf'rmore they Hant to put in the net all taxes and assesS111ents or either or portions thereof payable to the city under this act and unpaid on the thirtieth day after becoming due, payable to the citv shall,until paid~bear and be subject to compound interest computed from the said thirtieth day and calculated monthly on an advance 2005

ne~e~~er 18, 1975 W. PEfXFn:r.n: Tape 773 P\-1 at a r.ate to he estabHs~e<l hy council from time to time hy resolution. <-o not nnl y will the di seount he eJitninatefl but they 'I>.Ti.ll be 1 j eb)e for interest after thirty cays if the bills are not paic1 ancl the amount of the interest or rate of the interest wiJ1 be clete:ro.ined and left to the rliscretion of council to iletermine from time to time ilepenMnp upon ,.Jhether,I suppose ,they could put in a f11i rly lo'l>.' interest nO'Io' to see ''~1ether thif< hes t1-:e effect of pettin~ peopJ e who 11re jn Rrrears t" pay.

If in fact jt cloes not they can ahrays increese it a bit more to t.ry to co]lect it. :\111 !lf\N. "' ~!'"': There are lots of dead beats arouncl. Pjght. So t~e cnunci.J has re~uestefl thjs chan~e a. s~nf course)they h<~. ve reouestecl co]J the ch11nges th<~t •·•e put fnn·.•ar~. "e ju.~ t llo not flo .i.t co.s 11 p:ovemment em our m·m. '~'he c5.ty has always requested the l)epartment of ~'unicipal Affairs to bring fon.mrfl various amendments to their act that they fleeT'\ appr0prtate for the better acl!"inistratfon and running of the c:!ty.

S0 this is an attempt by the ctty to try to collect a lot !'If its tax <'~.rrears r,tdch has led in ]arp,e part to the present posit5on, f:ln<~.ndal position,that the city council nov' finfls itself in. P~ther th~n I'O the unpopular route, I sup.rest, I r.an only sugp.est, of incre<~sjng taxes, they tMnk they are p.oing to he ah]e to halance their hudpet hy otl1er cuts hut p]so hy implementing this kind of a change t>avinr no discounts <'!nd putting i.nterest !'In arrears nfter the thirtieth cl~.y.

So these Pre the ~aj~r chan~es that the city has reco~~ennefl t.h<'!t '''e have put i.n thj,; h:f1J .for your C!'lnsider~tion. So therefnre after these feH explanations, "r. Speaker, J I!'ove second rearinp and ,,,:f]J try to answer any question that han. memhers might h~ve on the ~Hl. l'r'. SP:P.AKF.P: The hon. !!'e!"ber for T.eui.sporte (~'r. lo.Thi te). ><p. ~~rrnTE: There are a couple of pojnts, Yr. Speaker, I want to make nn this. Speaking for our p-roup here jn respect to this bill we, of course, will support the b:Jll rn10inly for a couple of reasons, 2006

~ecemher lR, 1975 1'1'. HHITE : Tape 773 partj cularly the last one v7hich I l••ill mention in a moment. But 1ll-2 fn connection ••ith council members havinp, responsibility for their mm salaries' well so they should. I mean,they are big boys and girls, r•r. Speaker, and they have. to ans• ·'E'T to their own taxpayers. '!'hey have to raise ti-eir own revenue. So basically, I suppose, they should be resronsible for their mm salaries. 'T'hey '1>7ill have to justify it to the people. In connection with that if I might I would like to say a >>ord or two about outside councils,outside St. John's.

I knm• we ,,,i] 1 have. the opportunity to debate this further when ,,,e talk about the vn1alen romrlission, but I have been talkinp: to councils who could not, for instance, raise enough money to attend the municipalities conventi.on in Corner Brook this yea,r and that 1<-ind of thing. I think when the time comes arotmd to debating this >•e have to look at outside counc:tls.

I am not sug?esting that He pay them or that they pay themselves or anything of that nature but it is a lot to expect out of a group of peopJ e to run a tm•m, take a] 1 the flak and so on and not get anything for it, not even a cup of coffe.e out of the council ftmds. Another point that I tmnt to talk about, the last one, Nr. Speaker, anrl that is the removal of the discount on taxes ov>:fng the city and charging an interest rate. I am not so sure that council is smart tn removing the discount. It enables them to bring in some quick money for peopJ e who want to respond to tl1e discount.

But that is their own thi.nr;. If thev want to do that 1:o1e will support them here. But the interest rate is a good thing because ri.ght now what you have in St. John's is a proup of people t·mo H they put their money in the bank instead of payinp; it to council •muld make IT'oney on it in terl'1s of they tvouJd be gettingc the interest in the bank

whereas if they p11i~ it to council they tmuld lose 1.t. !io they are just holcl.ing back on pay~.ng. ~ut now P:lth an interest rate on that they wilJ have to pay up or they tJ:Ill have to pay more as the :Interest ~Jill be compounded. In that connection, Sir, this is a problem too outside St. 2007

~eceMber \8, 1°75 ~!!'. loll!JTF.: "'ape 773 I B-3 Jo"n's in other n'unictpal areas . . ~ lot of councjls are hnvinP' trou ..,lP c-ol 1 ectinp funds pnt' that kiru! of t hinu . It o f ten resu J t~ in squabhles be tween f:rrnilics :mtl sqnal>b1es bct~<:een nun:lcipaJ coun c ils.

Tr:ls is one a r e a r.ertainlv ~~here r eg:lon<tl government shoulfl he th~'~"t about in terns of collecting service fees in conmunJt1es . l'l'r instance,if' vnu 11ac' one co lJ pc tor for, say, to cover a lo t of mton ~ dp?J councils , i t ~;ou1 cl c'o at~ny 1.Jith the rift t ha t occurs in !mal l co!'munities ~o.'h en <> counc:ll 1+o knows evP.rybody are forced to stanrl up in court and te~<ti fy prohabl y against hi& 100ther anc' his gran<11!'nther anc' his lftAAt'father nnd everyhotlv else. So , those are jusr ;a C<'npJ e o~ point s that T \Jan ted to I'II'Ye on this bill and 1,•e \tj 1 J vote for 1t. ~m .

SPEA~Er. (Yr. \~llins): ("r. ''H~<ha 1 l) . The hon. mem~er for St . J!'hn's East J'l' , l'AI'!':HJ\LT. : ••r. ~PP."ker, as a l'le"'l)pr re prespntinr a S t. John's area, there r>rf' ;. fel•' ohsPrvat;io n :< T •··,..ulr' 11ke to l"t~ke ahour tl-i.s b1l l, :mtl partjcu1arly ,.·fth respect to sec t ion 157 of the !>ill. That is 2008

Deeember 18, 1975, Tape 774, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: a seetion which 1 as the hon. minister h~s eXf!lained,provides that the council is empowered to pave any existing str~ets. It goes on to say the cost of the paving shall be assessed hy the counc:ll against the owners of land frontinp. on the street. Now T represent myself an area ~~hich contains a lot of older houses in the St. John's area. The houses that are there have been there for a long time and they are lived in hy many people who are retired and on fixed incomes and they find it very heavy today wtth the increased cost of living.

So I am reallv speakinp. on their behalf in making this observation. I would like to know what paving means. It says the council has power to pave anv unpaved streets. Does that mean that if there is a comnlete street laid down the abutters to the street have to pay, the nroverty owners have to pay,or does it mean that if there is any minor repairs of pavement over the street that they are P,oing to have to pay? I think this is signifieant. I realize that it is fairly hard for municipal !l:OVernments to get money for i111provements but these ~eople have been paying taxes over a long period of time.

I think there is a real rationale for chargin!l: people who are moving into new subdivisions for the paving of streets and the installation of curb and gutter because this property is now coming into bein!l: in the municipality. It has never paid any taxes before, it has really no investment,as it were, in the city. Hut with respect to these older homes it is a different thing altogether. People in the older homes who have been supporting the Council for many, many years, have naid in their taxes over the vears, have really paid for their streets to be naved once.

I feel I know that because costs are so high it is nrobablv unavoidable that this has to be done. I dn feel that it is rather regrettable that Council sees the necessity to do it because the older areas of St. John's, the peonle in these older areas have naid taxes for years and these taxes have been used, 2009

December 18, 1975, Tape 774, Page 2 -- anb MR. ~ARSHALL: for instance, to - initially in the late 1940's and earlv 1950's - for the ourpose of estahlishin!!: the St. John's Housing r.orooration. Subseouently the government had to take it over hut it was the capital, really, invested from these rreonle years ago that went to establish the ne1~er area. Thev have made their contri~ution to the citv and I would hate to see a provision come in ~~here, as l say, a lot of these retired and older people would find themselves encumbered by heavy bills as a result of public works that have to be done on streets.

If there has to be a whole street laid do~ after a certain period of time there might be a rationale for it, although as I sav, I would hate to see it. I would like the minister at least to direct himself to the 1oord 'naving' and what does 'paving 1 mean. Does oaving mean normal, ordinary renairs and just how far is this going to extend. That is the first point.

There is one other ooint that I would like to hrinp. to the attention of the House because it gives me the opportunitv in relation to this bill where we are talking about the establishment of rrarks and recreational areas .1 ust for a moment to acquaint the House - because it is very opportune right now - with the affect of neighbourhood imrrovement in the Citv of St. John's which, of course, orovides money for the establishment of narks. About one year aJ!:o I convened a meetinJ!;, Mr. Sneaker,in P.ishoP Feild College of residents in the St.

John's East area which was the initiating or founding meeting,as someone who used to be associated with us in the political life long aJ!;o once said you used to call these meetings, for residents between Church Hill and Ordnance Street and between Military Road and Duckworth Street with respect to neighbourhood itTiprovement. Now Neip.hbourhood Imrrrovel'lent, of course, is an establishm~t for the bringing in of funds for the purpose of improving the area, establishing parks where the ~ark Commission here, the Park and Recreation Commission could well avail of it.

That meetinJ!: was a great success and I am happy to advise the House that one year, only one year after this, subsequent to this meeting following up there was a committee formed and for the first time, I 2010

necember lR, 1975, Tape 774, Page 3 -- apb "1R. MARSHALL: run happy t .o say, for the first time, really, in Canadian history under the NHA Act, that the nei~hbourhood improvement has really worked and worked satisfactorily in Canada. Thev had it a couple of times in Ontario and thev had a great deal of difficulty because of friction that occurred between the committee that must be set up and the City Council. I am happy to say that the City Council and the Committee in this case have worked along very well and it is "! real credit to both bodies. It was iust 2011

December 18, 1975 Tape no. 775 Page 1 - m<l }!r. Harshall: today I was speaking with Mr. Richard Carew, who is the president and chairman of the Neighbourhood Improvement area in the St. John's East area, and he tells me that already now - and this is why it is so opportune - twelve to fourteen loans under the Residential Rehabilitation programme,which comes in under the Neighbourhood Improvement, have already been approved and have gone out and houses in this area are being repaired under that particular programme.

As I say , this is the first opportunity I have had to report this fact to the House, and it is with a great deal of pride that I report its success. It was a real effort on behalf of everybody, and it shows how these programmes can be brought about and brought i~to effect for the benefit of all the reside nts in a certain area when people get together and push them, and I t hink t here is, as I say, a great deal of credit due, particularly to the committee who brought ti1is about.

We are going to see even more changes in that area as the programme goes on or the Residential Rehabilitation portion of the Neighbourhood Improvement area within the next year, but as I say, it is a very opportune time right now, Mr. Speaker, now which is just about the first anniversary after the first and initial meeting which was convened and which is going to see a great deal of improvement in that

section of the city of St. John's. MR. SPEAKER (Dr, Collins): The hon. member for Conception Bay South . UR. NOLAN: Hr. Speaker, I rise to speak on this bill. As the member for Lewisporte (Hr. White) indicated, we are certainly going to support it, but there are a couple of things that I would like to comment on. One, item (

a) in the explanatory notes, to fix the remuneration of mayors and councillors. I believe it was following the introduction in this House of the tabling of the Phelan Commission on the City of St. John's, we brought in, I believe, at that time,or I did as minister, a bill in reference to the $50,000 that the minister mentioned, and it was necessary, and it still is up to this time for the House to pass the necessary legislation to provide funds in this regard for the City of St. John's. I was most disappointed, frankly, shortly after to be driving along and listening to a radio programme one morning and find one of the people who 2012

December 18, 1975 Tape no. 775 Page 2 Mr. Nolan. were elected in the city of St. John's saying,when they had received a raised, "Oh, well, I am sorry, but that is not my fault. That is the government." I said right there and then that if a bill such as this ever came up to provide a clause such as this to fix the remuneration of the mayor and councillors, I would certainly vote for it, because as the member for Lewisporte (Mr. Wl1ite) suggested, they are big enough and old enough now to look after themselves. So let them be accountable to the people. But an~vay I think it is only right.

The other matter is one I intended to speak on, and the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) has already mentioned it,and that is regarding the paving of streets. It is really not clear to me, and I hope we will get an explanation from the minister. We do not know if a person whose street may be paved, if the householder would be responsible for one foot, two feet, ten feet, 100 feet, 1,000 feet. There is another little matter,incidentially, and that is in connection with paving,curbs, gutters and recover costs from owners of adjacent land. Now what exactly is adjacent land?

I would like to have that cleared up, because one of the things that bothers me a little, if there is a street which has been partially developed, on which there is say a widow who has nothing in the way of income other than say an old age pension, and if a council or whoever should decide that if she has 100 feet or 1,000 feet that may have been left to her or something, and they decide to put curb and gutter or pavement or whatever there, I mean are they going to put her in the poorhouse? I mean this is the question that I have to ask here. I am not suggesting that anyone is going to do it.

But what we are doing here provides for someone to do it. I mean this is my unde ·rstanding. At the moment we are here, we are transferring this power and all to the council. I am sure we should be doing this, but I would like to be clear on what we are doing. Am I now - and when I vote 2013

December 18, 1975 Tape no . 775 Page 3 - mw MR. NOLAN: for this, as I intend to, and I would not mind hearing a c.ollllllent on this by the way from the form .er deputy mayor of St. John • s, the member for St. John ' s West (Hr. Crosbie), because I recall when I was =rking on t.he bill chang:ix:tg the City of St . John ' s Act, which brought in the necessary legi.s:ation, for example, to give women in St . Jolm's for the first time the right to vote, which they never had previously 2014

--~----------- December 18, 1975 Tape 776 PK- 1 MR. NOLAN: ------ unless they were owners of property and other matters of discussing any number of these items with the member for St. John's West (Mr. Crosbie) at that time. And I might say he was very helpful to me on it, with his experience in Council. But I am a bit concerned about this paving business and the streets. I do not know what I am letting some poor unsuspecting citizen in for. And I tmuld like to know, if possible from the minister,just what information he may have available from his officials or from the city on this.

If we give the go ahead now.as we will 1-1hen we vote on this, Mr. Speaker, to pave roads, curbs and r;~1tters and recover costs from mmers of adjacent land; adjacent land,what are we letting loose? And I am perfectly prepared for example to say that the people who are presently on council and the mayor,that level heads will prevail and so on and that reason will be used, but I would like to know tvhat I am voting on here and I am certainly not clear on it at this moment. And I think that - I fear, I honestly believe that not enough citizens in St.

John's know. unfortunately.what we are about here today, what tve are going to vote on. You know, the member from St. John's Rast (Mr. Harshall) in my opinion would have been negligent had he not stood up and spoke as he did on this matter. I am sure that if people really realized what we are doing they would be up in the ~alleries today, hut unfortunately this does not come about in our system for one reason or another. So therefore although I do not represent a district in St. John's I would certainly have to ask for some clarification on this item (

h) in the explanatory notes. And the other matter is 7of course 1 the law for a parks and recreation commission. I understood that the City of St. John's has a parks commission, !(here is the Bowring Park Commission,! believe, is there not? And I suprose they are asking this to create a by-latv for a parks and recreational commission, I thought they had already had a recreation commission,: incidentally. AN HON. MEMBER: No. 2015

December 18, 1975 Tape 77fo PK - 2 MR. NOLAN: ------ They do not? I see. ANJ!lli . IE~ffiER : A stadium commission. A stadium commission '? Well they also have recreation officiers. MR. PECKFORD: That is only a stadium commission or a parks commission such as Bowring Park Commission. They do not have a parks and recreation commission that would encompass all the various recreations. MR~ NOLAN: Right. By the way,while I am on this, if I may be permitted in connection with parks and recreation, and I am subject to correction from any member of the City of St.

John's.pr from the minister himself on this, I understand that 1 - I believe , Mr. Noel, known to the trade in hockey as "Hooks) Vinicombe has been appointed,I believe~as recreation director has he notJ in the City of St. John's? MR . MURPHY: In an acting capaeity. MR. NOLAN: Pardon? MR. MURPHY: He was acting . Yes~he was acting. You are perfectly right. The member for St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy) reminds me that he was acting. You are perfectly right t here, but I believe recently I heard an announcement that he was appointed the recreation director. I may he wrong. }IR.

MURPHY: I think they are waiting for this to pass. }IR. NOLAN: I see. Well if that is so, and if I may be permitted, l1r. Speaker, I would certainly like to offer my congratulations to, and I think our congratulations to Mr. Noe~ Vinicombe. I mentioned him as "Hooks" in a familiar term because that was what he was called when he played hockey, so valiantly and so well in the city and throughout the Province in years past and he had a close relation- ship with all kinds of recreation, and he has an immense comraderie with so many people in all forms of recreation.

He has been working for some time incidentially,I understand,up in the old Rec Centre I think up in Buckma~ter's Field and - MR. ~IDRPHY : His headquarters are there .

nece mher 18, 1975 Tape 776 PK - 3 ~ffi. NOLAN: Yes - and doing a quite remarkable job, and I am sure that many people here including I am sure the member from St. John's Centre ('1-ir. Murphy) over there will be delighted to hear,if what I am saying is true, that he has been appointed as the recreation director for the City of St. John's. So apart from my question about the paving of streets, and whom we are going to lay it on to, even if indirectly,Mr. Speaker, and I am hoping the minister can help us with that. I would like to say that we, as our friend the member from Lewisporte (Mr.

White) suggests, stated, we are certainly going to support this bill. MR~ __ SPEAKER:_ The hon. member from St. John's West. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I just rise for a few minutes on this bill. The b.ill of course has been explained, as the provisions of it had been requested by the City Council. .And I think that Section (2) is only sensible as other members here have agreed. If there is any question of an increase in salary then the City Council themselves should bear the responsibility for that. We have enough here in the responsibility for our own small pittance.

But on the question that the hon. member from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) raised on the paving of streets, as I understand it this only brings a practice of paving presently unpaved existing streets~of which there are very few, 2017

necember 1R, 1975 Nr ._Crash ie: Tape 777 but there ~re a fe•1 tmpaved existing streets into line with •mat IJI-1 the .Jl'tl•r now is on suhdivisinns,because i_n any new area nmv, new sub<'i.vis:lons,the developer has to charge into the price of the lots and therefore charge the abutting property o~~ers the cost of curb and gutter, their share of the cost of curb and gutter and sideyralks and also street paving. This amendment here permits the city also to apply that policy to presently unpaved exi.sting stTeets. Now that chanp.;c ,,,as made ~J thi.nk, ilt the request of the member for St.

John's East (~'T. l'arshal1) some months ago. It ,.rould not apply, I'S T understand it, to repavinp. some street that :Is no•r paved. Jlut there <'Ire a fe''' areas lvhere presently ex:! sting streets 1\re not pavec' ancl the cound' Pants to appl~r the same policy as if yon lvere i.n a sul-,riv5 s:l.on ancl t}te a1,11tt :lnr l1omeoHners ,,•oul r1 hRve t" P"'Y iT' ."'l c con1nnce ••ith the:ir frontare 0n th'lt particular street, pay their -;hare in Rccon'~l'nce ld tl• the front are. So it cloes not appel'r to l!'e to he unfair for. t•s ro comply Hith that request.

Now if it were f01md that there l•Tas some gre3.t tmfairnes:;= or in.instice 'lone,there i.s notld.ng to stop the llouse runendi.nr the r"ity of St. John's Ac.t ap11iP to chanpe that. But as I unc'erstl'nd it,it P:!Jl .i\JSt ~"'"l'e the poJ:Ir.y uniforT" <rnd it is not p.-oing to harm ;onyone Hho l1;os al r.r-ar'v p:d c' thronph the:! r taxes for the pa\rement of streets ~-1l1ere tl1ey are noH ) 1vinr. It. is only go:lng to Mean that peop.le l·.rhn are> noP in c>re;.>s hrnurht :Jpto the c:lty :In recent times v1here the strf'ets l·•ere- not pnvecl hnve to !"nke a contrihnt:l on. '"' .

SP!:o\.I(F.T' (~"'. r.()LI,JNC): ("r. rarter). 'T'he hon. me!T'.ber for f't. John's ;'orth ''r. fpeakeT, I e .cho the concern c>f my collearue-s on this street pavinp;. It has been my understand:lne too that this ,.•oul (I only concern neP pav:ln~, to hdnf it in J1ne ~·:lth exist"l.ng regulations rep:ar.<linp.: subd:lv:ls:lons. I would ]ike the ministeT when he stands up to close the c'ebate> on this reac1ing to ma~:e :1 t perfectly clear that any repav:lng of stre-ets shall. not be ,lone under this formula. As long as that :Js i:>bso]utely clear this act certainly gets my support. 2018

necemhe~ 18, 1~ 7 5 Tape 777 lB-2 .J:T>. Sl'F.AKE>? :. ( 'r. rollins): The h~n. ~em be r for Sr . John's r.entre ( 1'r. 'UTT'hY ). r. Speaker, I wonlcl ius il:e nne ~·o rc!, jf the l'li nister cloet= not m5nrl, hPc:nusP if I rln not speak on it peo pl •11 l sav that t he nernher for St . Joh!l ' s !':ent re cljrl not Sf!e:tk on i r nne! he j s <~?a i nst it .

T\nt ¥ou1t1 1 tl:e /Jl !'n ro sapport this bil l . t ;~:n a l Ht e bit concernecl 1•i r. eferenc-e ttl th:ls pav i n'" thinr bee<> •se ~ t s n y~ that ope n inc - wha cines it a ctually s~y - ~e reafter openerl const:ructe cl ol;" usee!. , 'oP, you knm¥, that is A vecy hroacl tenn . llm> clo y<>u o en " street'? They opP.n j t fo r - r j!l l t now what they do Pnr r thi nk t is qui te unfair, if there S a freeze -up in you r ripeR li~e - Wa!> it <1St yea r l•'P '"d he very haft ye :~r? - t hey ch arp,e y ou for openinr, tbe whole h1 n r.. r:Jp;!lt: in t" ·onr ''o n sc .~ ·hich T do not think - MR.

ROBERTS: Just suppose a main broke they would change . - .'Jl.. '! ri"'PJlY: Yes . MR. ROBERTS: - opening, a term used in - }'T'. ~IU":Pllt: Yes~ but if they opened Le~'archant P.:oad from the top <>f r.arrison Fill to tbe ~race JTospit:al <•iJ J. I have to pay for my frontage, that is all I am ,gorr:led ahout. MR. P.OBERTS: That is what open means there. AN liON. 'f.:lflrr: npr.n to the !'treet. "'""P llY: n""' s it ? 1-'1'. l.n:IITE: Just Ji'OUr s ect ion . Y". ~1l.rr.PHY: Actually H that is so, and I mea·n I feel that in the older pa rt <>f St .

John's, not so"'e of us who live in the New Jerusale11' .1as the. at e "a yor l'arneJ J t1secl to cnll the ne,.•er SPC to n of St . John's . But I am very ha ppy that a t last they have establis ~ ecl a Park and recrea t i on Committe ~. s fa r as the:i r ~:n la r ies " e aon cerne(! I can ,.,e nl .-j tll . h.1.t M; P tax paye: r rather than as P 11'i.n ister of the· C:rown, ''"at I fee J they a r e "-'Or t.h. l\1• t I would ) il' e to h av~ t removecl f r om::> y~ocly ' s l"in<l t ha t tl>e sal::t i es of t he ~t. J C\hn's 'unic:ipal round are pn:l out of the t axes of t he people. of; St. ,loh n 's ::>nd 2019

tleceo"e r 18, 1 H5 Mr. Murphy: '!'ape 777 In-1 not I'Ut of t~>e l'!'vernl"ent, and t <'e;oJ furt"er "~>'.:1 th the the>nr'tts put fon.•ar<' hy the mel"'"er for T ewj sporte ("r. l·!hHe) . SCin>eone wi 11 bovn ro face the fac t thltt counci 1 ors, Hhernw~r the" !lc~shoulc' yet rel!'unerntion, not fro.., ~overn111ent in .:ltsel f h11t f r oM the taxpayers on whose behalf they a r e acting. I'~ far as <'nything eJ,;e is concemecl l 31'1 ver;v hAppy to support this hill ~·itb the throurhts l!eain that i t is aht~ut tire that ~t .

John's hat' A l'ccreation rowrdttee . l thin k they are ;ohCiut the only 1erre one - as A mat ter o~ fact I unclerstand that over the ve~ r s thev C'ou1<1 not rc:U. 1rith eovern.Ment to l!et a recreation erant of any l·:incl he('~·.•se tht>v eli r' not h~tve a CCll':rd ~:si on to r'o so . S<> tl·:f s Pill en;~.bl e t!lc,.. to c'cnl n<>•' I'Jth t ;e fOvernment on any r,rantll thnt are availa'lle ro c!ti es . Jf the hon . l":ln:llltPr speat·s n"•' he clo!ll'l" 2020

TlF>cemher 1~, l ~7'i. Tape 77R TUl - 1 !'R. rrr.r:frm:l: "r. S:>cr.l1r.Pr, to rleal wj th the commentR r.'\Rrle ns thev arnsr. of course I think all hon. members will agree with the amendment rcl :Jt in~ to t 11c nRymP.nt nf councillors anc1 tlli'!t counci.llnrs should have the nntlwrity thP.wsel ves. That was mentinnerl. The hon. mF>mher for T.e~1isportP. (Mr. White) l'lrnt:! on<>d ahout outside as did the hon. member for St. John's r.entre(Mr .Murphy) about r<win<7 council.Jors in nther mun:icipalities. ITere is the proh]em.

The hon. mt>l"her from St . .Tohn 's Centre (Mr .Murphy) qualifies his statement by saying as long as the nnvmen.t to the councillors cnme out of the revPnuc:- collecter'l hy the l'!un.icinalitv. T'q:!rf' lies the prnb J.em he cause thr muni.cipal ities in tl1i.s Province,outsirle of ten or fjfteen that om> coulrl P.asi1v an.cl readily name riP,lJt off the top of our heads, do not have the ~inancial resources because they do not have the t:1x haRe to provide the kincls of ]Tioney so that they could pay t'lcmselves. fach dollnr :l.s needed.

If you cut off $l!lf1 in any one month in some nf the smaller municipalities to pav a eouncilJClr the garhage tmuld !';O uncollected for that month or whatever. It is that tight, It is that close. So t'>cre ]s the prohlem. Hith p.reater fiscal responsihility being exercised by a lot of the 1 arger l'lunicinali ties,especially, I think when that comes! and it ui 11 in tl~e next v<?ar anrl a half or two years , 1 Rttp;gest, in 1l lot of the larr<'r municipalities, town councils esnecially, T tl,ink then you wi.ll he able tn ~et to that place.

On that verv tonic, a lot of the smaller municipalities got to get used to the idea of long-term debts and h~vinp. their o1vn hands and sinking fund and so on, that there is nothing wrong with that and part of the hudvet eac.h year •vill n] 1 ot that much to· pay off th:l.s lonp term thing for petting thei.r pro;ect tod1lv. Sn I could not agree more. The ma;or concern of most hon. members ~lhn spoke on the bill concerns the p11vinp. i\n•1 while the various han. memhers were speaking, I just confirmed it for the recorci wlth my officie~ls no•mstairs, that this only appJies to unpaveu streets in the citv of St.

John's,anrl it does not apply to existing ~trt>ets that are naverl. So thP.re is no intt>nt here to sucidt>nly pave Hamilton Avenue again next year and the cost of resurfacing or doinp it over and paving jt apain, putting another laver of asphalt on it, the cost Hou]d be recoverer\ from the land o~mers ahuttin~ the street. So now I can put han. members' minds at rest on that rather important point. 2021

necember lR, J.'l75. Mr. Peckford. Tape 778 RE - 2 I should also like to make mention of the comments of the hon. member from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) who brought up the concept of paving first about, the NIP and RRAP Programme, in his constituency and to say simply that it is, as he suggests, perhaps one of the best run NIP areas in the '~hole country. The hon. member for St. John's East (Mr.Marshall) and myself attended that meeting that he referred to and the thinp. has moved along so smoothly it is not even funny.

It is jus.t an example of what can be done if you get citizens together, get a good neighbourhood connnittee going, what can be done with these kinds of programmes. I am happy to hear him say that a number of loans totalling around fourteenhave already been approved under the RRAP part of that programme. Just recently,of course,we have announced another one for the Curling area. I do not know if there are any other points besides the paving that '~ere of major concern to hon. members. {,Te have talked about the remuneration.

I would recommend to the hon. member from Conception Bay South(Mr.Nolan) that he read the parts of the act and not 1ust the explanatory notes when he talks about adjacent because the word adjacent really does not come up in the bill itself. It is used as explana~ory notes here but not in the actual sections them- selves. I think then it would become clear to him what it is ahout. llavinp, said that, Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is anything further that I had to address myself to, so I shall retire. On motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The City of St.

John's Act," read a second time, ordered referrerl to a Committee of the l·hole House presently by leave. 1-fR.. l1F.LLS: nrder nine. 2022

December 18, 1975 Tape 779 PK- 1 MR. SPEAKER {COLLINS): }lotion second reading of a bill "An Act Further To Amend the

Summary Jurisdiction Act~ 1 (Bill No. 9). !!Obl~_I~LLS (MINISTER I<ITHOUT PORTFOLIO): In the absence of the tUnister of Justice (Hr. Hickman), Hr. Speaker, this is a very minor amendment to The

Summary Jurisdiction Act. It deals specifically with the Provincial Court which formerly was the Magistrate's Court at Corner Brook. With regard to the jurisdiction of these courts in monetary matters,the jurisdiction of all Provincial Courts or Nagistrate's Courts in the Province of Newfound- land is $1,000, civil matters up to $1,000 except for the Cities of Corner Brook and St. John's which are $500 each. There has been a request from the City of Corner Brook that their Provincial Court- that the

Summary Jurisdiction Act be amended so that their Provincial Court could deal with matters up to $1,000 just as the other Provincial or MagistratJs Courts in Newfoundland, And, of course, the government has acceded to that request by bringing this act before the House. Other areas of jurisdiction,for the information of hon. mem~ers,are when you get above $1,000 7 and now in the case of Corner Brook,when it is a matter involving more than $1,000 civil claim, it will go to the Dis~rict Court,When you get to $10,000 it then goes into the Supreme Court. So with the passage of this amendment, ~1r.

Speaker, the only Provincial Court in Newfoundland which will have a jurisdiction limited to $500 will be St. John's where there has been no request for an increase. Corner Brook will have a juris- diction just as all the other Provincial or }fagistrate's Courts of $1,000. MR. SPEAKER (COLLINS): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: ------- Thank you, Mr. Speaker, As the minister has indicated it is really a very small matter, a very technical matter and one to which nobody could take objection, and accordingly we do not take any objection to it. May I however use the occasion of looking at the

Summary Jurisdiction Act to raise a question 1 one I think the minister would want to deal with, one which I believe would be a 2023

December 18, 1975 Tape 779 PK- 2 Mr._ Jtoberts; considerable step forward. As Your Honour is familiar and without going into at any length, to recover a debt in the Province now through the civil courts , well through - we only have one series of courts, but we are talking here of civil jurisdiction as opposed to criminal matters, one must go through the procedure laid forth of, as I understand it, issuing a writ in a statement of claim and back and forth, the normal process by which litigation is underway. And that process, Hr.

Speaker, is the same whether the debt in question is $50 or wllether it is $50,000 or $50 million. The process - Elucicate. MR. WELLS: l1R. ROBERTS: Well the han. gentleman canelucidate it, but essentially it is the same. It may be a little easier to conclude it, it is certainly an easier question to litigate a small amount than a large one. But my point is not with the procedures per se. My point is rather with the structure of our courts.

And what I want to suggest is that the minister and the government give consideration to a new type of court, which they may be considering, but which they have not acted upon if in fact they are considering, and that is a Small Claims Court, a type of court which has developed these last few years in a number of jurisdictions across Canada and has developed '~ith considerable success. Now these Small Claims Courts, ~lr. Speaker, are courts in the sense they can make judgments which are binding at law.

And the matter in dispute between two parties which comes before those courts and is settled is settled as effectively as if the Supreme Court of Canada had ruleJ upon it, a judgment is a judgment. >fuere they differ from the ordinary courts, Sir, is that they are very much easier of access, there is very much less heed paid to the detailed minutiae of the rules of evidence, and above all, as I understand the way they work-and this is the secret of their working­ the need for a counsel for lawyers, for legal counsel, is not present.

Now there is no need now in law, there is no law of which I am aware of that says that any individual whether he is a member of the Bar of this 2024

December 18, 1975 Tape 779 PK - 3 !ir_~o~ Province or not cannot appear in his own behalf in any court. All that the I.aw Socie .ty Act says is that only those of us who belong to the lawyers trade union, the Law Society of Newfoundland,may appear and act for somebody else. But if Your Honour 2025

December 1!!, 197.5, Tape 780, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBF.RTS: tomorrow wished to sue somebody for SSO,OOO and --- ----- Your Honour wished to draw up the papers and prepare them, that is perfectly up to Your Honour. Indeed it is not unanalogous to the medical profession where~as I understand it, I may treat mvself medically but I may not treat anybody else in the normal terms of the medical world because I am not licenced to practice medicine in this or any other province, The Small Claims Courts do away with the need for a lawver. I sunoose one could be represented by a lawver in them. There is no - MR.

WELLS: In some Small Claims Courts the lawyer is actually prohibited. · MR. ROBERTS: T thank the han. the minister. I was not aware of that, But! was goinp, to say that a lawver is not required and he has gone a little further and said that in some Small Claims Courts a lawver is prohibited. That may verv 'Jell be a very ~ood suggestion for movinl! quicklv towards the resr>lution of ~~hat are essentially simnle questions. Now ohviously there must be safeguards, Mr. SneakE'r. If there are matters of law in dispute I would think that the Small Elaims Courts are nrohibited from dealinl! - MR.

WELLS: They have the right to appeal. MR. ROBERTS: Yes. The hon. gentleman has a~tain come to my aid by saying, "Well, there is the right of appeal." My under- standing is that the .iudges who hear actions and matters in the Small Claims Courts, who I believe are magistrates - we call them magistrates, Provincial Court iudges, a new name, one which I do not particularly like but it seems to be the vogue now to call the officer who was formerly known as a magistrate to be called a Provincial Court judge. MR. WELLS: The official title is still magistrate. MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, the han. gentleman is quite right, the official title is still magistrate and I hope it will long remain so. But the hon. gentleman who fill the position as magistrate, many of them prefer to call themselves Provincial Court .1udges. 2026

December 18, 1975, Tape, 780, Page 2 -- ap~ 'IR. ROBERTS: I have no ohiection to H. I do not narticularlv like it but it matters not by what name a, "Rose is a rose is a rose/" and they an~ iust as sweet one way as the othE>r.

The point I am making about the Small Claims Courts is that if a difficult matter of law arises then, of course, that is a matter that cannot be resolved in the Small Claims Courts,as I understand it, That is a matter that must be referre<t to be dealt with in the normal legal process, the process which bv and large has grown up over three or four hundred years, since the courts became readily accessible and particularly since what? a century nast l~hen the English courts finally t~ere made into some sE>nse through the Judicature Act of IR75. But to come back to the Small Claims Courts, these are courts, Mr.

Sneaker, that deal with factual matters, matters that do not involve great arguments on law, matters which are si~ly questions of fact . Is a debt owed and,if so, how much? Then arguments can he brought in, evidence can be brought in and then bingo: The matter is settled for once and for all. There is, of course, a rip.ht of anneal. An aggrieved narty has the right to anpeal to a higher court and if any injustice is done, if any wrong judgement is rendered, then that can be remedied at the higher level. The advantages of Small Claims Courts, Mr. Speaker, are very substantial.

First of all they are quick <tnd there is nothing quick now about the process by which our courts indicate. I do not practice do,.'Tltown. I have nevE>r been in nractjce as such, but 1 understand that it can often takE> Months or longer to get a matter resolved. In the normal course by the time a demand is ma<te - let us talk ahout an action in contract - a deman<t is made, a formal demand is made, that demand is re1ected, then a writ is issued, a statement of claim is served. Then there is a right of reply~and there may be a right of further reply~and so forth and so on.

Then when the parties have finally settled the matters in issue before them on the pleadings,then they have to go before the .1udge on a motions day and have a date for 2027

December 18, 1975, Tape 780, Page 3 apb MR. ROBF.RTS: hearing set down, and that may take a while because the court can have a lot of hearings, a lot of matters to be heard. When it comes on then it takes some time to settle. Even then there is no saying when the judgement will be rendered. We have had some examples,I believe,in our courts of this Province of judgements being a long time, of a judgement being considered well beyond the point of maturity to the point where it begins to become very old indeed.

Indeed so serious was that problem at one point that an amendment was put through the House to the Judicature Act. I do not know if it has ever been used, I do not know if it has ever been availed of,but it is on the books. A Small Claims Court, Mr. Speaker, is quick, it is quick to get there, As I understand it,all that is needed is to give notice to the other party so that he is aware he has to come before the court,and the court will then hear the matter and give a speedy verdict. If the verdict is wrong, if there is some injustice,well,it can be appealed. These courts also are very much cheaper.

One does not need a lawyer, Indeed,as the minister has said, sometimes lawyers are prohibited. But a man can appear and he can say, "Your Honour" or "Sir" to the gentleman or the lady hearing the case, "This man owes me some money and here is why I say he owes it to me.n Then the magistrate will say to the other gentleman, "What do you have to sav to this now?

You have heard it, you . . .. have heard the witnesses, what do you have to say?" Out of it will come some resolution and the magistrates hearing the case will say, "Very well, I find that you are owed the money and I now certify that the money is owing and you may take the steps available at law to collect your money." Resolved! 2028

necember 18, 1975 t·fr. Roberts. Tape no. 781 Pa ge 1 - nn~ Some of them, as a matter of helping people to gain access to our courts, sit at nights. Many people do not have access to courts during the regular sittings. The courts sit at quite eentlemenly hours. I believe 10:00 a.m. or 10 :30 a.m. is normally when a court sits. Then there is a leisurel y lunch hour , and then perhaps an afternoon of work and adjourn in time for dinner. That is the pattern of the courts. So, Mr.

Speaker, all I am suggesting is a new court be instituted in this Province,or our own Hagistrate's Courts or Provincial Courts, to call them that name, h"' given authority and direction to sit in this way, a means of allowing people quicker access - I l~as going to say, to justice. That is really not the word or not the concept here. The courts in this sense are resolving disputes. Two people cannot settle a matter between themselves. Three cannot settle it among themselves. They go to a court.

The court resolves it, one way or the other, whatever the matter in dispute is, and they are usually, as the very name of the court says, small claims, matters involving money, money owed, money owing, and then relatively small amounts of money. They do not get into motor vehicle cases where you get into the question of liability. They do not get into negligence cases.

They do not get into the libel and slander actions, none of the great historic actions that are argued out in the law courts, which is where they belong, because questions and issues of law are involved there very often • These .are to give our people access to a ready means of resolving disputes, and that is one of the functions of our courts, Sir. Our courts now perform as well as they can within the limitations circumscribed upon them, but they are not able to meet this function as they should. Several of the provinc-es of Canada have adopted a small Claims Court. I believe it is working very well.

None of the lawyers have gone bankrupt as a result of it. Many people get a quicker · resolution of their dispute. It seems to be a satisfactory one. You do not hear great claims of injustice and any of that. The system does work very well. I see no reason why we cannot do it in Newfoundland, and I think the way to start would 2029

December 18, 1975 Tape no. 781 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts • probably be to assign magistrates to it,to make it a part of their functions now. I am not aware that many of our magistrates are overworked. There may be some in St. John's who are overworked, but most of the ones I have known outside St.

John's, Sir, admit quite readily that they do all that they are asked to do and are required to do, but that they could do more, and I would think all we need might be some - I think the judges make the rules, I have not bothered looking up the Provincial Court Act - but some rules to be made, some procedures to be set down and then I think with that very simple step the courts could be made more available and could better serve their function. I do not know what that has to do with the

Summary Jurisdiction Act, Your Honour, except I suppose it is as close to the principle as it can be. The principle of the bill is to extend the jurisdiction of a Provincial Court in small claims, in civil matters involving fairly small amounts of money, a thousand dollars and under. I am suggesting we go the step further and that we set them up,possibly here in St. John's and in Corner Broo k to start '~ith, and then let us see how the system works. It works in Nova Scotia. It works in Ontario. I think that we should learn from the experience in those provinces.

I think it would be a benefit to the people of this Province, and it would not cost us very much money at all; a few dollars more for lights, a few dollars more possibly for clerical assistance, maybe a few dollars more for the magistrates, but really not very much more. I think it would provide a significant benefit to the people who have to resolve disputes, who cannot resolve them without recourse to the courts, and really the present system works marvelously for certain types of disputes, but it is not the answer for a dispute over $50 or $100, you know, in trying to collect a debt that is owing to you.

So I suggest it to the minister, and I would hope that the administration will consider it, and indeed I would hope the consideration will lead to a positive result and quite quickly. Thank you. SOME HON • l-!ID-IaER: Hear, hear! 2030

December 18, 1975 Tape 781 Page MR . SPEAKER: If the hon. minister speaks now, he closes the deba t e . The hon. member for St. John's South. DR. COLLINS: I have a few brief comments on this matter. I listened to the hon. Leader of the Opposition with great interest there, and 1 was glad he brought up the point that he perhaps was 3 not speaking directly relevant to the bill under consideration, because I would like to actually just speak on the point he brought Up. So if Your Honour felt that he was relevant, perhaps he will permit me to speak in that vein too. MR.

ROBERTS: If the Deputy Speaker were in the Chair, you would never get away with it. DR. COLLINS: Right. It ~•as just on the point that I noti .ced in, I think it was, British Columbia recently where there was a phone-in legal service instituted, I believe, by law students, and this was much in the same way. It was an easy access to legal opinion by people with relatively minor problems, but sometimes by more major problems, but certainly a way that the <;>rdinary cmmnon folk, of which I am one., can very readily get hold of legal opinion. 2031

nccember 18, 1975 Tape No. 782 NF - l nl'1. COLL1NS: Now this I think would he a great benefit here because I think many ordinary people are in considerable awe, not only the courts but ' also the legal profession itself. I suppose there is nothing against a person rin~ing a lawyer and tryinp to get some information from him over the phone and probably it would be given, although I do not believe i t is common practice. As the Leader of the Opposition (}'r.

Roberts) savs, this ,.;orks very well in the medical field , or at lea s t he said something else "'orked ' ~ ell in the medical field,and this particular th'inp. also ,,,orks well in thf' medical field. HR . ROBERTS: But Dr. Gulliford Rot in trouble. DR. COLLINS: You can get in trouble. You have to be careful. You have to use judgements. '!11. I'JTRPf!Y: If I phone the member for medical advice would he asl ; me to quote my Medicare card number? DR. COJd:. .. !:''l~:_ Hr! m i ~ht and might not, Sir. But l do not think he Hould necessarH~r have to have this to get his opinion.

And T would suggest that t!l<\1\'f ll'ledical matters are settled very exp edi.tiously in this '~ay and 1 Houl.cl suggest that in the legal field there might be some value to this noH. I know this has nothing particular to do 1dth thP government instituti ng something. It reall y would be s omething more for the Law Society to bring in. But T just bring that up in follm~ on to the Leader of thf.' npposit:Lon's remarks. NR. ROBERTS: Hec>r! Hear! t'"P.. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. minister, I now indicate to tho> f!ou~<e '·rhat matters will come up for debate on the motion to adjourn at five-thjrtv.

Now I have received notice of four matters, and as han. gentlemen know there is only time and provision for three. I read the relevant part of the Standing nrder, 31 (j) "When several memhers have given notice of intention to raise matters on the adjournment of the House the Speaker shall decidE" the order in which such matters are to be raised. In doing so he shall have regard to the order in l~hich notices were given, to the urgency of the m~tters raised and to the apportioning of the opportunities to debate such matters among the members of variou" parties in the House." 2032

December 18, 1975 Tape No. 782 NM - 2 '·!!'. ~'>l'F.AKER: The four of "hich I received notice were t1v0 from ·------- thE' hon. mf'mhE'.r for T.aPoile (~'r. Neary), on" from the hon. member for l,]fnd:;or-Buch:ms (Hr. Fli!!;ht), one from thC' hon. memher for l'.xploi ts (~lr. ''uJ rooney), and in terms of the relevant part of the St:mdinp l'lrder, the three Hill ~c one from eAch of the gentlemen.

Tt f.ol lo,..·s on, "The Speaker may at his discretion consult •·ri . t~ representatives of thE' parties concerning such order and he rui ded hy their advice." Their havinp: decided that there Hould bE' one from each han. member~! then consulte .d <Vith the hon. member for T.al'oile to determine lvhich of the two of "hich hP. hnd r,iven me notice he preferred to have for debate at five-th:! .rty and he indicated which one. So the three matters 1..rhich will be debated at five-thirty are a matter raised hy the hon. member for