Volume 3 ' ' PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 29, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 79

Nr;n?rnber 29, 1974 The !k1un,e met at 3:00 P.M. Hr, S-p,eaker in the Chair. MR, SPEAKER: Order please! Tape no. 1769 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS: Page HON~ JOHU C, CROSBIE {Minister of Ftshedes): Hr, Speaker, the gaverr.r.:ent is today, with the concurrence of the companies involved, Newfoundland Fisherman food and Allied Workers, Union Local 625, rcl"":&sing tht'! report ef the Conciliation Board• chaired by Br. Harris of H-::r:10::ial University. He was appointed September 19 to look into the mntter of the Oispute between the union and IL C. rncket"G Limited, Atlantic fish. National Sea.

Fi.shery Products and Booth Fisheries in connection with the trauler industry. The board had terms of reference that require theo to investip;ate and report on all items of a monetary nature affecting the relationship h1:tween trawler fishermen and operators• including fish prices. lay arrangements, short-time and working forth in other matters.

The board was specifically asked to make recommendations with rcgarcl to the economic ability of the companies to maintain or increase prices of fish, using as a bench mark the pric~ of fish in effect at July 30 nnd further to make recommendations on the social requirement~ of trawler fishermen, The board was asked to take into consideration tluit question, the issue of inflation and its affect on fishermen's earnings, standards achieved by other workers, the relative position between fishermen and plant workers, giving consideration to hours of !\ervicc, working conditions and all related matters.

The report of the boai:-d is of great intereat, not just to thl! parties involved in the collective bargaining dispute, to the public of Newfoundland and the governments of both Neufoundland and Canada. Th~ 7246

November 29, 1974 Tape no. 1769 Page 2 report is pnrticu1nrly relevant to the situation today since it pinpoints the main sources of difHculty in the fishing industry of Eastern Canada at this time and the need for long-term government programmes of assistance to the industry and those who work in it.

To summarize some of the main points made in the report: The report finds that the most serious problem of the Eastern Canadian fishi.ng industry is the manner in which there has heen depletion of vlwt should he an infinitively renewable resource, Despite a vastly increased catch in effort, vastly increased investment in ships and technology, catches continue to decline. The rate of depletion the board finds is largely attributable to the vast European fleets operating in our Continental Shelf and waters adjacent to our coast.

The hoard suggests that there should be an immediate reduction of the total quotas by ICNAF to fifty per cent of their current level with respect to cod. The board recommends that Ottawa must assume absolute control of the resources of fish on the Continental Shelf and that control must come about through unilateral action that international negotiations failed to achieve the desired end with catch quotas drastically reduced until sufficient scientific data is available to provide firm projections on the maximum sustainable yields.

The board points out that dedining volumes of production hnve to mean higher per unit costs since whether the volume of landings go up or down, the great majority of costs remain unchanged and with volume increasing the unit costs decline. The board finds that the 724/

November 29, 1974. Tape 1770 RH - l continuation of prices and costs obtained on July 30, if the coapanies continue to pay the same prices as on July 30, they wo'uld all be involved in sustaining heavy loses in their trawler operation as well as generally since they are facing a stagnant market and they have escalating costs of fuel, packa~ing and so on which aggravates the situation. They find that the market is stagnant at a level that makes the Newfoundland trawler based industry less than viable.

They find that the state of the industry in brief is that fish landings are declining, that the decline in landings means lower earning levels for crewmen, that all elements of the cost equation are increasing at an alarming rate, that market prices are low and that the combination of these four elements has produced a situation in which each of the five companies and the board examined their accounts as for several months past and is now sustaining heavy loses.

They find that deep sea fishing is becoming less and less attractive to Newfoundlanders and that trawler fishennen have good reason to be dissatisfied with their lot since their income as compared to the incomes of other groups of workers have declined in recent years in relative terms. They su~gested that the trawlerman's year should be fixed at 240 days, which is the equivalent of 48 five day weeks, so that an individual trawler fisherman would engage in twenty-four trips of ten days each during the year.

They suggested the method to set the trawler fisherman's return for his labour should be a direct charge of so many cents per pound of fish caught by a trawler and that there should be established a minimum income level for trawler fishermen. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: The honourable member will get the report. The board finds that the average cost of crew shares at the present time is about four cents per pound of landed fish.

Well, with an average increase in costs of one and a half cents per pound of fish landed, the minimum earnin~s for full time fishermen should be about $13,000 a year for twenty-four trips per year with an average of 150,000 pounds per trip. It is necessary to provide a mechanism to insure to the fishermen some 7248

tfovember 29, 1974. Tape 1770 RH - 2 absolute guarantee of income ns Hell as some degree of a regularity in terms of payment dates ;:md that to provide the necessary security to fishermen the board suggests an income average in fonnula to operate durinr, the year with respect to trips. For several years to come and perhans until more sensible fish mana~eMent policies will have had time to be implemented and to produce nn effect or until markets improve appreciably, the viability industry will remain invalid.

It does recommend to both governments that immediate action be taken to establish a mechanism through which the companies can continue to operate while assuring the fishermen of a fair return for their labour. Two important questions that the governments must answer or find the answer for are first: What level of subsidy is required?

(2) How is a subsidy to be applied? Mr. Speaker, before this conciliation board report was received I saw the Minister of Fisheries at Ottawa and discussed with him the perilous state of the Newfoundland fishing industry. He had already been to Nova Scotia and had gotten the same kind of information from Nova Scotia.

It was decided with him then that once the board's report was received a special task force would be appointed by the Federal Government and the Province to examine this problem and to come up with recommendations as to what assistance is needed to continue the industry in the next few years while the resource is beinp, gotten back in proper shape, presumably under Canadian control. ?1:R. NEARY: He wHl have to f!'et another study - HR. CROSBIE: Listen, Mr. Speaker, we know that the honourable gentleman from Bell Island is not seriously interested in the Newfoundland fishery. MR.

NEARY: That is what he thinks. (Inaudible). 'lR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: As I was saying, Mr, Speaker, we decided then that this task force should be appointed as soon as the report was in. On November 18 the federal representatives, the Chairman of the federal task p;roup is 7249

November 29, 1974. Tape 1770 RH - 3 Mr. F. Doucette of the Fresh Fish Marketing Corporation. He has been asked to chair it on behalf of the Federal Government. We have appointed Mr. David Vardy, the acting Deputy Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Gordon Slade, Frank Spencer, Mr. Leslie Dean 7 Mr. Rupert Prince and they can call on other people and they have been working on this problem since November 18 in corporation with the industry and of course with the union. It is hoped, Mr. Speaker, that 7230

:-:avember 29, 1974 Tape 1771 IB-1 hy December 15 these groups can report to their respective governments so it can be decided what kind of assistance will be given in the period of the last several months, in the next few nonths, to keep the industry going in the meantime. While a permanent system of assistance is beinb worked on,that will have to be in effect until the fishing resource comes back so that it is adequate to sustain the East Coast Canadian Fishing Industry. So that work is now under way and they are meeting every day (lU it. TlJe wort': under way now.

Mr, Speaker, is confined primarily of the problems of the fish plants served by the offshore fish fleet. Once u plan of action is devised with respect to the trawler fleet and the companies who have trawlers, then work will have to he done on what needs to he done in connection with the inshore fishery. It is quite clear. Mr.

Speaker, that the government of Canada will not provide any assistance to Newfoundland that will not apply to the other Atlantic Provinces, Since the central problem of the fishing industry is caused by the <lee.line in the fishery resource, a matter which is solely under the constitutional jurisdiction and which is solely the responsibility of the Government of Canada, the province is expecting the Government of Canada to provide a very major portion of any progran:me of assistance that now evolves. We are not passing the buck, Mr. Speaker, the BNA Act passed that buck in l[Hi7.

The Government of Canada is responsible for everything that happens offshore here in Newfoundland. When you are going off the shore line there, the Government of Canada takes control. !'.ow, Mr. Speaker - AS HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. !!R. SPEAKEJi~ Order I please! JIB. ROBERTS: Inaudible. :1R. CROSBIE: With respect to fish. With respect to oil and gas the matter is different. Although the honourable gentleman opposite apparently wants them to have the oil and gas control also, HR. ROBERTS: Not so. MR. CROSBIE: Well then, he should keep his mouth closed or open it and 7251

November 29, 1974 Tape 1771 IB-2 explain his position. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! }ffi. CROSBIE: Now, Mr. Speaker, as far as the Conciliation Board Report is concerned, the government feels that its main findings are accurate and sound. With respect to what Dr. Harris finds and his board finds, the trawler fishermen should receive - the government agrees that there is need and the need is shown that a trawler fisherman should receive substantial improvement in the remuneration he gets for the work that he undertakes. Whether the amount Dr.

Harris suggests and the way in which he suggests it should be done is the best one or the proper one, of course, is a matter for the parties to negotiate about and to finally settle once they know what assistance is available to them from the govermnents. The government does not want to become involved, if that can be avoided, Mr. Speaker, in the collective bargaining negotiations and details that should be left to the parties them.selves. It is quite clear, Mr.

Speaker, that this is a complicated area and that everything possible is being done to bring it to the attention of the Government of Canada and for us to do our part. The House need not fear either, Mr. Speaker, that we will do our part within our financial capability. Now, I have other infonnation on the Fishing Industry Advisory Board and so on which I can give the House later just to say that that matter is well under way, Mr.

Prince who has been appointed chairman of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board has now been authorized to commence work with whatever people he needs to set up the Fishing Industry Advisory Board. Their aims and objectives have been identified. The government has agreed that there will be legislation introduced in the coming session of the House to allow the board among other things, to subpoena information if that kind of power is required. Mr. F .A.J.

Laws who was special assistant to the Minister of Fisheries, a very experienced man in the fishing industry, has been appointed as secretary or seconded as secretary to the board. Mr. Prince and Hr. Gar Pynn who is the other member of the board, have 7252

llove':lbcr 29, 1974 Tape 1771 IB-3 been authorized to get whatever legal advise they need from the Department of Justice. They use Mr. Carl Sullivan in the Department of Fisheries in financial analysis to get whatever economic and other advice they need fror::i the Planning and Priorities Committee and to hire such chartered accountants 1 market analysists or other experts as they may need so that within the next two or three months they vill have the legislation ready and their aims, objectives and their methods of operations settled.

It is estimated that the amount, that the cost of doing this work up to the end of March will be $88,000 most of which will have to be suprlementary supply which I assume that the opposition will not vote against. Finally, !-!r. Speaker, the government has no objection whatsoever nnd in fact wishes to have the whole position of the fishing industry of 1-:ewfoundlnnd and Eastern Canada debated in this honourable House. The govern-nent will not do it today. The honourable gentleman wants to speak from ignorance. He has not received the Harris Report but he wants to speak about the fishing industry today.

It will not be today, Hr. Speaker, but the government will make time available for a debate on the fishing industry next week. A motion that will permitJthat will he made later in these proceedings. The government, Hr. Speaker, has nothing to fear about debates in the fishing industry. It has done more in two and a half

Tane 177:> PK - 1 years than the Poherts/Smallwood AdrniniNtration did in the nrevious twenty­ tno. A}.1 HON. HPITIFJ1: lfP. SPFAKFR: ~m. SPEAK.FR: Inaurlihle. Order. nlease~ PF,TITIONS: The honournhle Hember for Bay de Verd~. 1•W, B. HOWARD:_ !'l'r, Spealrer, t beg leave to present two petitions - AN PON, 14P,tBF'P: Tnaudi1ile. }ffl, SPF AKER: Order. please: MR. HOPARD: Both dealing with roads.

The firFit being from eighty-nine residents of flld Perlican, whkh is known by local residents as ''The lower end of Old Perlican. '' The nrayer of their netition ls: •·we the undersiimed residents of Ol<l Perlican request that the road to Daniel's Cove be naved one-hnlf mile beyond Harold Barrett's residence. There are several new homes in this area and Fievernl more under constructfon. As this :is an extension of Old Perlican and traffic is very heavy at times, there is a considcrnhle amount of du~t. With naving equipment presentlv in the area,we feP,:l this opportunity l'lhould not he overlooked, Hr.

Sneaker, I uholeheartedly sunnort thiR netition as Old Perlican is exnanding and thil'l is the only way at the present time that they can exnand is on the road to naniel's Cove,and mavbe a little nrejudice on this ou:in~ to the fact that l come from the Community of Daniel's Cove and dur:fn)! the last election I got n one hundred ner cent vote from there, although it was onlv mv mother and Rhe was e1ghty-four vears of a)!e, she had to walk four miles to vote. I fullv sunport that petition, AN !lON. pptf!FR : Voted 'P.C:. at that. '{TI, HflHAPD! And voted P,C, at that, vei:t.

The second petition is from Lower Island Cove, it is sip.ned by 1.51:'I vnten:. The nrayer of the netition is, i-we the citizen!'! of Lower Island f;ove do i1erehv netition the povernment to have a secondarv road naved down throur.h our community. Thif:; roarl i!': a school hus route hesides being one of the main roads of our community. The road would not need anv extensive upgrading on major renairs because of it~ fair condition of the navement. We feel this to he the most onnortune time vhile the pavinP, wAchinerv is in our immediate area. The road is annroximatelv a mile and a-half long. 7254

Tane 1777 PK - 2 Tf' it in orrlpr, "r. C:neaP'Pr, fnr thP 11nnnur::,i-,10 ;1ml stund Hemh1,r for P;;p• d" "Prdr> to nr0's<>nt nore th:m orv:• net:lt1nn ,,t onf' Pi.vP.n timf'? Or do vnu h;iv0 tn nrP<1f>nt tl--f' netitions st>nnrntr?.lv? Pn11 T ;:;unnO''H' nre~rntinr tvo netitionn :tt onr> tirnr, iR a,ei much in ordPr ti;,;; onP r;,p;nl-~r c,1.lli.nr thi'i other f"lemhr-.r. /'ltunrl. But anvwnv T ff'e1 thP ~wrd stim:1 ,~ n 1ittJe nnnarlinMPntnrv nml ,;h("luld not hp U<1f>d. 'rherr> are tith,-,r f't'<"-ts,ln·v:; nhr:n lmnournhle mPmiaen; h;iw, nr'°'sentl'.'d tu0 or three netitlonR nt nnP t·!nr>. ;,lt1"nur>h.

T tl1:hk. "taRtf>rdav tlw Hon. H:fni~tPr of HinPs ard Enerp:y did nrr>BPnt onr• nt 11 tfr-10. Tt :lF: nroJ--,A.hlv rt li.ttle more nron!'!r to rlo one at :, tfr1p than t~.,n or thrPe tor-ether. Tnnudil,J.e. Tf the hnnoura'hle f'Pntlemim on the other i:;frlr, would be rmi..F>t for n ff'.•-' n.inutP.s ,:;o I cnn concJurl~ mv rf?markr:, he crm havf' the floor for the rest of thP rvrnin;,. T sunnort this net:1t1on 1,ecnusr;, tPO vears np:o this road was ungraded nrior to thnt 1t w1~ nnt1"inr onlv n cov ..,nth. r-tp:ht not., it ii:: :fn good condition, ;;nnroxin,"ltPlv fortv-four fPet virlP~ 725;:i

Novemher 29. 1974 Tape no. 1773 Page 1 - MW I fully support it and urge the department to act accordingly. I ask that these petitions be laid upon the table of this House and be referred to the departments to which they relate, _;~R. M. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House support the petitions which were presented by the honourable member, representing the residents of Old Perlican, where he got 100 votes. The people of Lower Island Cove are looking for improvements in roads.

We, Sir, pray that their demands will be met, We trust that Ottawa will come through with the funds to support the five-year road paving programme that this government is going to present to this House and offer to the people of this province later on this year or possibly included in this year 1 s budget, Mr. Speaker, there are a number of areas throughout the province that are badly in need of roads, not upgrading nor paving I but there is one particular area in the province where we have no roads, Mr. Speaker.

Although the Minister of Transportation and Communications is not in the House today, I would like to air it to the minister and the Premier, who is responsible, that we, in the mainland

section of the province, are looking forward to some improvements in roads this year. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. WOODWARD: We support the petition, Mr, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I beg to interrupt the Hon. Member for Labrador North. The latter part of his remarks are not relevant to the prayer of the petition of the Member for Bay de Verde. _MR. B. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Nipper's Harbour, Snook's Arm, Round Harbour, Tilt Cover and Shoe Cove in the District of Green Bay. The prayer of the petition, Mr.

Speaker, concerns the paving of twenty miles of the La Scie Highway. The year before last, ten miles of this important highway was upgraded and this year an additional ten miles has been upgraded or is in the process of being upgraded 7256

November 29, 1974 Tape no. 1773 Page 2 and it is the feeling of the residents in the Green Bay nistrict that rather than go ahead and finish the remaining fifteen miles for upgrading next year that it ~ould be much better to pave the first twenty which will, at least, give them that much paving. It seems that the upgrading projects that are undenray really make the road in worst condition than the old road was, especially in the months of February, March, April and May, It should also be pointed out, Mr. Speaker, that other people use this road besides the communities that I listed.

As I mentioned it is the La Scie Highway. The last community at the end of that highway is the Town of La Scie. In addition to that town, we have the other communities of Harbour Round, Brent's Cove, Pacquet and Woodstock, also Ming's Bight, in that area, In addition there is a very important copper mine on that highway, Rambler Mines, which has tvlo mines now really, the mine at the old Rambler Site as well as the new Ming Mine towards Ming's Bight.

Each day the company has trucks on that road carrying the ore concentrate from that mine to the Community of Tilt Cove where it is stored in an ore shed there nnd shipped from there by ship. Because of the industrial activity that is presently occurring along that highway, it makeA it even all the more important. Of course, too, you have the La Scie Fish Plant and all the communities that are involved in the fishing industry very often truck their fish over that highway to La Scie. Mr.

Speaker, I support the prayer of this petition and ask that it be put on the table of tris House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House, support the petition that was presented by the junior cabinet minister, the Member for Green Bay. Sir, we feel that there should be far more money spent on roads in this province , as I stated before. AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible). 725/

November 29, 1974 Tape no. 1773 Page 3 MR. WOODWARD Again, Sir, we appeal to Ottawa to get the necessary funding, not to the Minister of Finance but maybe to the Minister of Fisheries, who is more suited and more capable to carry on the funding of this province than the present Minister of Finance. We will get into that later. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. WOODWARD: We do not fight the federal government. If you did, they would cut you off completely and where would you be then? You have no money of your own. 7258

pt• - l "r, ~nPaVer. '·'f> <";unonrt the netitinn,:rnd !1Rtdn, ~•e hone that tht> flennxtrwnt of Tr;mrmnrtation and ronmunicntiom; uiJJ r>et the nece.i:;i;;.e1rv fund1nR from 0tta•.:a tn nut foruarcl the f1.vr> VPnr pnving nronrmmne tn this "lrnvircf'. I truf;t thnt thf'\" wi1l not nt>Rlect to nut Bnp,e ro:;dn in Lnhrnrlor ;;nr! thf'r. ".In.Ve thf'.1"1, Th:n+ vo11, •,tr. '.'nenP-er. '.'.:~ __ f:l:T!\ __ r:r_o..:,. The hor,nura},]P ~•rmbex for !::t. John 1 s Soutb. "r_"·- n. !-ff'JJ.<:: tt SP('Tllq to l--r: ;i d:w for netition;i-, r,rr, ('nPaYer.

Onl} more. ft is ;i rindf'l of p_ravHv .'lnd it COf!\P.i; from tliP citizens of ~hea Heiphts. to rcnrl 1 t in fulJ it sir:':plv s::iyn ~ WP: the undersipned would Hke to Flee an r;n,tp 11ot.7chmr>.nt stnti.oned on <;he.a He:fphtr:. That i~ sipnerl hv - Tnaudihlt'. T thn11J, thf>. 1Hnintrr nf'F'isheries. '!'hat iR ~1$:med hy 37.5 peon.le. \'ow this •,mt< given tn m~ on Sp_nteJT1be.r 7.1, nnrl t,of cour!'le, lieut it until not,, unti 1 thr t!ou~e oncn12d. It nrose, lfr. Sneaker, hecause two or three children Hr.rr> Yil]r<c'l :in<l rave r-f>en J:illt>d un there thi.!'l RUtmnfH" in traffic nccident~.

Th;, ;ci<st of the nattr-r is that ."l.ornehodv -...•ho has no morn Renl'le of responnihili.tv than to <lo it, dr:fve nll over the nlace un there on the roails like ITlftdmen, narticu1nrlv at ni.P:ht:. ThPre ,-rA!rP no nol:ice in thf'. arr,a.

The RCH'P vii:iit frnfTl timP tn time as t'rev do r:ianv SIM.11 communities 11nd unfortunat~Jv it is not enough becam::e the irreRnon!"liPle element in the community go tra-r:fn~ around ,"lnrl eventually r::omehodv i.!l: fniured or killed. ' 1nv Fhnthcr or not R l:CHP netachrnent can he nut on <;lien Heir,hts, t do not krnt.' rut T th:!nk the nraver nf thhl petition and the emnhaAiA of this netition is that somethinp. ought to he done so that nolicPmen are ur, ther~ TTJore oftr>n than thev arn not.-1, n:irticularlv at niRht vhen this tyne of driving trnds to occur.

T t11inl-' this 1.s somethini;: that is worthv nf conAideration, ~·½1cther 1t .e.hnu]d he tl1e RC:HP or whether Shen Height~ .!l:houlrl Pe tnken into t.hr> nren of thn }lppfoundland r:on!ltahularv, tl-:Psr> arc matters fnr the Department nf J1rntice I fpf'! to com:d.dr>r hut T think the point underlvimr it is vi.tallv jrnnortnnt. Tlwre arP nreaR of this orovince and areas nround St.

John I s todav P!wre therP fo inadPnuate nolici.n_e, esnecin11v ;,t niP.ht, nncl PRfH~ciallv hecause t'lere ;;re in this commun:ftv rlr1v,~rs t-1hn Are cnT11nlPtP,lV mad, <en, Mr, (;nr>aker, I uould ask thnt th::1!'1 he tnhled and referred to the D0nn.rtt:1Pnt nf Jtrntice tn -...1 hicl1 it relatP.s, Thank ,,nu. 7259

Tnne 1774 PK - 2 The Hon, I,P,n,d~r of the f'lnpni:;ition. }JON. E, ~f, RORFP.TS {L'EADFP OF THF f'lPPOSITin!',!): iir. Sneaker, if T could ;;nv a vord or tPo in r;ur,nnrt of the r,raver of the neti. tion 1ust rrreRentPrl hv the p,:,.ntleMan for St. John'f'I South. I th:1.nk it if:; a verv reai:;onahle reouest. I thin1, in the lattn part of his rr>mnrlts he nrobal-ilv hit unon ;.,hnt T vould sum~est :IF: the solution.

I am one of those who, well ce.rtainlv no exnert on nolice mnttf>.r.<1 nr the arlM:!n1r:trntion of nol:lce resnnnsihilit:!e,;, feels tr.nt the Neufoundlnnrl Constahulnrlv, in t11 e tvpe of vorJr uhic.h the honourahle .rtentlemnn :ts rliscusRinP.:, I tMnlr can do a brtter "'job than the mounted nolice. I realize that we. have had some difficulty in ~t. John's rP-centlv. There has hePn sone cr:lticimn of the cons.tabularly, criticism uhich the Ninister of JuRt:lce feels, and I thinJ.- with 1mme _iust:lfication for once, Ls not entirely deserved.

The nolice were not able to, if vou v:lnh, tn <lefPnd therrmc>lves in that nense of the word. The ½inister of Jm;tice hesitatinplv and after n little hit did raise his voice and oerhnns set the matter strai~ht. T am not sure :if nuttinP, the mounted Police, if in fact they were to do that on ShPa Hei~hts would meet the !'lort of need that the honourahle gentleman for ~t.

John• s ~outh describes. tty under!'ltanding of the mounted pol:l.ce, in uhat Uttle I have had to do with them, they have detachments in tvo commun:itiefi in mv conl'lt:ttuency, is that thev do not provide the sort of continuous day to dav nolice presence that most often is called, you know, · The man on the heat, to get a ~eneric name. The mounted nolice do not seemed to he trained to do thifl tvpe of worlt". They do not seem to be prof.rammed to do it or told to <lo it, they seem to concentrate on a different type of police worlr, altogether.

So :tn suonorting the petition I would sugrest to the Minister of Justice, vho takes a great number of things under adviseJT1ent, and there they seem to ruminate and eventuallv to ver,etate and finally to die, that he com1ider the petition and that he malre Rome answer to it. Not today - he may or may not be in a oosition to sav something t:odav that 1 do not know hut that within a reasonable time frame he make some answer to it and to the neonle in Shen Height,:,• Perhaps the neoole in the tmburban nreas surrounding the citv could be told Hhether thev are goinr: to get increased police protection 7260

'lovf';nl,pr 2_0, 1q71, 'T'nnr 1771, PK - 3 throur-h the a_gency of the mounted nnUce and. if so. hv ;ihnt meani:; 7261

November 29, 1974 Tape 1775 IB-1 or alternately, thev are to ~et increased police protection from the agency of the Newfoundland Constabulary. Whatever the decision, I think it is agreed and I think it must he agreed, it must be implemented, that we do need a greater degree of police protection in the communities surrounding St. John 1 s. It is more and more an issue that I hear about. It is more and more an issue that, I suspect, we will continue to hear about. It is more and more an issue on which the Minister of Justice and the government should act and act quickly. MR.

AYLWARD: t beg leave to present a petition from approximately 500 residents of the Cape Shore. The prayer of this petition is that the road from Point Verde to St. Bride's be upgraded and eventually paved. The present condition of the road is desperate, Mr. Speaker, in that there are about four or five miles presently under construction. As a result, the residents of the area feel that unless immediate steps are taken to improve the present condition of the piece of road presently under construction, it will be impassable within the next few weeks.

They say the condition of the road has always been poor but presently because of what the residents feel is a lack of adequate equipment by the contractor in the area, the present condition is really deplorable. The petition is signed by the residents of Branch and Point Lance as well. I know it is of some concern to the honourable member for St. ~.ary's since on Sunday last we both drove over the road.

We can say from first hand knowledge that the submissions made by these petitioners are really justified and that is that immediate steps should be taken, not alone to upgrade it but to improve the present conditions of this road~ So, Mr. Speaker, task that this petition be laid on the table and referred to the department to which it relates. I am only sorry, in presenting it, that the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications is not in his seat. I sincerely trust that this will come to his attention and that he will take immediate steps to improve the road. 7262

November 29, 1974 Tape 1775 IB-2 MR ,_£,__OTTENHEIHER (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to support the prayer of the petition presented by the honourable member from Placentia East. As he stated last Sunday we together travelled over that road. Actually we were both attending openings of new elementary schools at St. Bride's and Placentia East and Branch in St. Mary's Bay. Of course there is some quite considerable upgrading going on on that road which honourable members who have been over it will know is a road of many hills, many corners, perhaps one of the. most scenic drives in Nevfoundland.

I think it certainly would he among the most scenic in Newfoundland, very rugged terrain. There is no doubt that with the upgrading going on and no doubt when it is completed, there will be a vast improvement. While the upgrading is going on, then it puts the road in very bad condition. I think the honourable gentleman from Placentia East may well have put his finger on a point when he referred to this. I do not know. I am not an engineer. It may well be that contractors undertake work in this province without sufficient equipment or they become too thinly spread.

They work on lots more contracts than that for which they have equipment. I cannot say that with a certainty. I do not know. I do know that when roads are being upgraded and not infrequently, there condition is pretty rough. Everybody realizes that while a road is being upgraded, certainly there is going to be quite some inconvenience and it is not going to be in good shape. I am by no means such that it need necessarily he, as it frequently is, during that upgrading. I put it forward.

It certainly will draw the attention of the honourable Hinister of Transportation and Communications to the petition presented by the honourable member for Placentia East and mention to him as well that in this whole area, whether contractors are sometimes srreading themselves too thinly and whether there should not perhaps be closer regulat1on with respect to their obligations, contractor obligations during the periods of upgrading. I am pleased to support the prayer of the petition put forward by the honourable gentleman from Placentia East. MR. NE~ Hr.

Speaker, I lolholeheartedly support the prayer of the petition 726.:l

'.fovember 29, 1974 Tape 1775 IB-3 just presented by the member from Placentia East. This stretch of road,Sir, between Point Verde and St. Bride's in my opinion is the worst piece of road in this province today. I do not think, Hr. Speaker, that the two members who are involved,because it borders on two districts there - it is going to be shifted over, I think, in the St. Mary's - Capes district under redistribution I do not think the new member for that district should be satisfied with having it placed on the five year programme that we have been getting advanced notice on in the last couple of weeks.

I think it should be given number one priority. The upgrading of that road, the reconstruction of that road should go forw-ard full speed ahead this fall and this winter, Sir. A.."l HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I am not looking for another district. Full speed ahead, Mr. Speaker - the road is a hazard to traffic. It is dangerous and something has to be done about it immediately and not given the five year hoist. HON. A.J. '!URPHY (rL~ISTER OF SOCIAL ASSISTANCE): Mr. Speaker, if I may I would like to support this also.

It was a sort of a hardy annual for me when I was in the House of Assembly from 1962 up for many years, this particular stretch of road. There was not a foot of pavement in any of these districts until, I believe, the Conservatives just about took over. That would be in the St. Mary's district particularly. When I hear these rabid men in opposition demanding that not he done today but yesterday, it really works me up. I was eight years, Sir, fighting for Placentia and St. Hary's when it was in the hands of the great generous Liberals, Sir. What was done? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

I would like to congratulate the members for Placentia East and St. !1ary 1 s on urging and on the part of our own Department of Highways at that time to start working in these areas and make these people feel that they are as much a part of this province as any other district, Sir. I am very happy and I support the petition. AN HONOURABLE )1Ll.fBER: Inaudible. 7264

November 29, 1974 Tape 1775 11R. MURPHY! What is the "Tractor Driver" saying? !'.R. SPEAKFR :_ Order, please: NJ H.0'.-10URABLE NEMBER: Inaudible. rn-4 l.J'i HmiOURABLE HE1BER: He can drive a lot better than the honourable member can. _1~J,}'J:_AKFR: Order, please! MR. ~RP]_D'._,:._ Listen to "Three per cent" over there. ~r. Speaker, yest am very happy indeed to support this and to say to these tw'o members that I am sure that when the dollars are available, Sir, that road will be finished. It has been some twenty odd years now since these people have been looking for it.

The last two years we have made some progress and we hope to keep it up because if it is a five year programme, it is a lot better than waiting twenty­ three. Thank you very much. REPORTS OF STANDING A.'ID SPECIAL COMMITTEES: H0:-1. It.R,V. EARLE (HINISTER OF FINANCE): Hr. Speaker, as required by the acts of this House, I present to the House the annual reports of the :-Jewfoundland Liquor Licensing Board and the Newfoundland Liquor Commission. I hav~ sufficient copies here for each member of the House.

I would commend that in particular the report of the Nevfoundland Liquor Commission be read carefully by each member. It does show that largely due to the strenuous efforts and good work of my predecessor, the present Minister of Fisheries, that that organization has been completely revamped and is now, for the first time in history. operating as an efficient businesslike and very, very fine organization. This was largely due to the efforts of the excellent staff which my predecessor was successful in recruiting. NOTICE OF ~JJTION: MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice of the following resolution:

WHEREAS the fishinp industry of 7260

November 29, 1974. Tape 1776 RH - 1 Newfoundland and Labrador and of Eastern Canada is in serious difficulty primarily because of the over fishing of the fishery reacource and the resulting dwindling catches of Newfoundland and Canadian fishermen from the inshore and continental shelf waters off of the east coast of Newfound­ land

whereas a healthy and viable fishing industry that provides a decent livinp for a fishermen and those who work in the industry as well as a reasonable return for intrepreneurs enga~ed in the industry is essential to the well being of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador and to the economic life of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: I thank the honourable member. Mr. Smallwood used to help to correct me there too but I have never been able to learn from Mr. Smallwood or from the honourable gentleman from Bell Island. Therefore

be it resolved that this House of Assembly convened supports the efforts of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador in conjunction with the Government of Canada - A.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, they are so interested in the fish~ry. All they are interested in is partisan twaddle. Just listen now to the resolution. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. !1:R. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, honourable gentlemen want to debate the fishery. Mr. Speaker, this motion will enable them to debate the fishery. They will be sorry they ever suggested it, their shameful record over there.

Now therefore

be it resolved that the House of Assembly convened supports the efforts of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador in conjunction with the Government of Canada to devise a scheme of financial assistance for the fishin~ industry of Newfoundland and Labrador that will permit the fishing industry of Newfoundland and Labrador to continue to operate in a manner that permits the efficient and properly manaRed comnanv to gain a reasonahle return on its investment and the fisherman and worker in the industry to receive fair and adequate returns for hiR hhou!'. Until 7260

November 29, 1974. Tape 1776 RH - 2 such time as a recovery of the fishing resource on the inshore and continental shelf waters off the east coast of Canada permits a self sustainin1; industry to operate once again.

This honourable House of Assembly convened urges and joins the Government of Canada to take unilateral action during 1975 to control the fishery resource on the inshore and continental shelf waters off the east coast of Canada for the benefit of the Canadian fishery and to take steps to enforce proper enforcement and surveillance measures unless a satisfactory international agreement is reached that permits the same results at the Law of the Sea Conference during 1975, ~r.

Speaker, I invite the honourable Leader of the Opposition to second this motion because there is no reason in the world why it should not be supported by them. In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, task for leave of the House to move on tomorrow, whatever it is, the format is, in connection with this resolution. I have some copies here for the opposition and the press pallery. I will expect, Mr. Speaker, - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: 1 will expect, Mr.

Speaker, that unless blinded by partisan considerations totally we will have the unanimous support of the House for this resolution and be able to review the whole state of the fishing industry next week at some appointed day,perhaps Thursday. A.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER! Copy cats. MR. CROSBIE: What is the man talking about? What is wrong with him? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Copy cats. So, Mr. Speaker, I take great pleasure in moving that motion and we will have our debate next week and see what suggestions the opposition can come up with. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. HON. T.

A. ll!CKMAJt: Hr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Automobile Tnsurance Act.'' AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, 726/

November 29, 1974. Tape 1776 RH - 3 HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS TO WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN HR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education, HON. G. OTTENHEIMER: Hr. Speaker, I wish to table a reply to an oral question asked by the honourable member from Bell Island yesterday. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. NEARY: The President of the Treasury Board, Sir, was going to get me some information on the number of civil servants that got the "heave ho'' under the governments new redundancy progralllnte, Does the minister have that information now? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. MR.

EA.~LE: Hr. Speaker, there were two questions asked by the honourable member yesterday. The answer to his first question which he will recall of course is yes and the answer to his second question: the redundancv board has just been established and as such a committee is meetin~ to look into other cases which may be redundant. In the meantime replacement of individuals .in departments where they can do the most good is beinR actively worked on. In other words, new positions are attempting to be found. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my first question today is directed towards the Minister of Industrial Development who seems, Sir, to have developed a short circuit in his magic wand when he opened the - J\J~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. :'-!R. NF.ARY: When the minister opened the Pyramid Homes, Sir, in Argentia, the minister stated that the number of employees on the payroll would be doubled within a short time. MR. DOODY: That is wrong, Sir. 1.fR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. When they had the champagne party, Sir, to open­ !ffi,. SPF,.AKER: Order, please! Order, please! The honourable member for Bell Island is having a long

preamble to his question. I would caution all honourable members that I shall not put up with

preambles to questions. They should be very- short or I shall ask honourable members to take their seats. 7268

!fovember 29, 19 74. Tape 1776 RH - 4 ~m. NEARY: 11r. Speaker, would the minister care to make a statement on the situation of the Pyramid Homes operntinn in Arp:entia. !'ill. DOODY: I would be delighted to 1 Mr. Speaker. The Pyramid Mobile Home factory was opened up with r.reat expectations and very much enthusiasm. AN HONOURABLE ME~BER: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: Excuse me, the honourable memher is p,oing to answer this, is hP-7 Go ahead. A!i HONOURABLE HEH.BER: Inaudible, "ffi. ROBERTS: Would he like me to answer the question for him, Mr. Speaker? :-rn.. SPEAKER: Order, olease! !_1R.

Rn~ERTl: The Pyramid Homes - !,JR., SPF.AKER: Order, please! Order, plea.<H:'. I recoJ;:nized the honourable Minister of Industrial Development to answer a ouestion nnrl T hnri nnt recoRnizerl anyhody else. MR. DOODY: Do not he so sensitive. He only got three per cent of the vote. His band wns out of tune,. Ile is safe enough until he gets another call from Jameison. Relax!

The story on Argentia, Sir, if those neople are sincerely interested and l think that some of them might be, is that the plant was opened with rreat expect11tions and Yith r,reat hope and with great enthusiasm. t still feel and I am sure that the people in that area feel that it will be a tremendous asset to the community. The 150 jobs that were there at that time are still there in potential althou~h unfortunately there are not that many people emnloved. There were some sixty-four plus nineteen.

We have just o.hout eighty-five peorile who have heen laid off because of the sale situation, The sale situation is brought about fly the tip.ht money problems, the interest rates and so on vhich are beyond the sculp of the Province of ~ewfoundland, It has reen stated by the President of Pyramid, Mr. Greer and by others that \./hen the sale situation resolves itself and the people of Newfoundland P,et the opportunity to buy the homes then the full potential of the plant will be renlizerl, Thi~ government has made the possibility a real one. The plant is open. The job situations are there.

If Ottawa will µ;ive the 7 2 6!1

November 29, 1974. Tape 1776 RH - 5 peovle in Newfoundland an opportunity to take advantage of the money that they need, then certainly the jobs will be reactivated. MR_.~: Hr. Speaker, I wonder if the same Minister of Industrial Development, Sir. could inform the House if he is still hopeful for a steel plant for Newfoundland as stated in his news release to the Daily News on November 13, 1974, with picture and all, Sir? MR, DOODY: Mr, Speaker, I am very pleased with the picture. It is a very complimentary one. The statement is of course that tam hopeful.

The sad facts of the matter are that the copy of the report which was recently received, received only yesterday indeed, the one that was commissioned by the Department of Re~ional and Economic Expansion and sent to the Premier's office yesterday uses as its model an area in Sydney, Nova Scotia. Certainly we are hopeful but considering the fact that Sydney has been used as a model we are not all optimistic but we do feel that the Province of Newfoundland has certainly as much claim or probably more so than any other part of Eastern Canada.

However we are waiting to hear from the Minister of Regional and Economic Expansion for that answer. We hesitate to condemn either he or my friend's colleagues in Ottawa until we are more familiar with what the story is. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speak.er, I wonder if the Hon. the Premier would AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardonl I am coming back to the President of Treasury Board later, Sir. I wonder if the Hon. the Premier would care to make a statement to the House as he did in the Daily News of November 7 that he was very worried about the I.o.c. situation.

Is the Premier still worried about the I.o.c. situation? PPEMIER MOORES: Yes,3ir. The answer obviously, Mr. Speaker, is yes. Any company that is losin~ between $40 million and $50 million 7270

Novemher 29, 1974, Tape 1777, Pa~e 1 -- apb at thJs particular time is alwavs a source of worry to this government.

It it. a l'rnurce of revenue thromd- taxation when there ia a orofit and as one knows, in the previous administration they saw fit that the only r~venue the province would ~et from that particular operation was five per cent of the ~refits as oooosed to puttin~ in a proper mineral tax, In the meantime, Sir, we are concerned and obviously we want to see Labrador Citv - Wabush those areas that are primarily affected and the rest of the province which is also indirectly affected, of course. we want to see them get on and get on well. We are, Sir. concerned. MR.

NF.ARY: Would the honourable the Premier, Sir, (thin is a supplementarv question) care to indicate to the House what steps the 2overnment have taken to investir,ate reports of resniratory diseases amonP, the miners at I .o ,C, 1 If there is any foundation to that and what the povernment are doing about it. Mr, Speaker, the government are undertaking toP.ether with the comoany and the union a nro~rarnme to make sure that safety features are looked after in that particular establishment. The Minister of Health can dve a better reply than I can if he should care to do so. He can give it in more detail than I. HR.

SPEAKER: The honourahle the Minister of Health: HO?!. DR, ROHE (Minister of Health): Hr. Sneaker, two weeks ago there was an indication that a certain number of x-ravs taken of personnel working at the I.O,C.operation at Labrador in the dust area showed evidence of a certain respiratory disease known as nneumoconiosis or the dust disease. The patients were examined and further x-rays taken, biopsied and definitely diar,nosed. Some of these people had been in the plant some few years. I should say that they are not ill.

Thev are not receivinn treatment ~ut because they have these x-rav findin~s which were substantiated, they have been placed in areas other than in the rlust area. Following this information the Minister of Mines in 7271

November 29, 1974, Tape 1777, Page 2 -- apb conjunction with the Denartment of Health have arranged for a team from Ottawa, the National Health and Welfare, to visit Labrador City within the next month or two to make specific studies in monitoring the amount of dust although we are assured at the moment that the values which are recorded are below what are termed the threshold values. In addition to the study being done hv exnert consultants from the National Health and Welfare, the Department of Mines is mtare that recently an institute known as the Trudeau Institute have done a study for the I.O,C, themselves.

The matter is under intensive investigation by the private consultants and by governmental officials. I believe the Minister of Hines and Energv can state that the next report is due sometime early in January. HON, L,D.BARRY (Minister of Mines and Energv): Mr, Sneaker, if I could add _1ust a few comments to this: Basicallv there is some unkno~ factor.as far as we can determine, that has created this problem, MR. NEARY: Dust. The unknown factor is dust. MR.

BARRY: I would ask the honourable member not to be facetious about this because it is a serious matter. ?-ffi, NEARY: (Inaudible) MR, SPEAKER: Order Please~ HR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, as I sav, I would ask the honourable member to take a responsible position. I know it is something he does not normally do but he ahould take a responsible position as we are talking about the health of workers in Labrador City. This government are determined to do whatever is necessary to ensure that the health of these workers and the workers or employees in any industry in this province is safeguarded, TI1e situation is, Mr.

Speaker, that there has been a standard applied there in dust monitorinR, What they do is set a threshold limit value which is supposed to be the a.~ount of dust which any person working in those conditions can safely absorb over his working life. This standard is taken (it is not a standard set by the Newfoundland 7272

~;overnh~r 29, 1974. Tape 1777, Pnge 1 -- 3ph Government) from industry experience across North America. It is possible, Mr. Speaker, that for some reason or other this level is too hiizh at the present time because it could he some particular tvoe of dust situation in Labrador Citv. Mayhe the particles are so small - MR. NL_,~RY:~ !iii:~-~~R~'G. Iron ore dust, is it? There are other iron ore facilities using the same tvne of standnrd, '-'r. Sneaker. It could be that there is an additional ele7ent combining with the silica which is the well known rlangerous item and vhich is the one that is mainlv monitored.

It could also be that there is an additional element there that may he combining with that to cause the problem. It could be that there is some allergenic reaction because of some other factor like this. These are all the tliinics that are being checked out right new. Dnsicallv ,,,e have to determine (1) whether it is a fact that the amounts of dust absorbed bv emoloyees in this situation are normally accentnble. A."'l .!LO}!· MFHRER: (Inaudible) ~~~~~ As far as l understand, ~r. Sneaker, the problem has onlv arisen in th!'! concentrator plant itself.

Anybody who hns worked up there, such as myself,- I worked un there one vear in the mill, Mr. Speaker, and the first question I had was: Hhy are thev havinR this nroblem in the concentrator plant when everyhodv knows the conditions, as far as dust is concerned, are much worse in the pellet plant? Well. '.'1r. Speaker, one possible there right away is that the amount of silica in the du,;t in thA- pellet plant is much less than the amount of silica in the dust at the concentrator. Even thou~h there iR less dust at th?. concentrator there rnav be a higher silica content in that dust. But, Mr.

Speaker, to sum up: the sorts of thinf?s that are beinr. looked at are (1) whether this level that is set is an adequate one and a nroner one. It mav be that there should he a special level set in Labrador City and not the one that has been derived from the experience across North k11erica. 7273

Novewher 29, 1974, Tape 1777, Page 4 -- apb

(2) Mr. Speaker, we have to determine whether, if this is normally an acceptahle level, there is some other mineral or substance that is ,combined with the du.st or by itself, causing the problem,

(3) Mr. Speaker, we have to determine whether the tYPe of instrumentation that is bein~ used to monitor the levels of dust is the proper type of monitoring equipment and whether that is adequate. MR.~~~ How quickly can the honourable minister get a report? MR._B_~ We have put on all the pressure that we can to get this information as quickly as possible. I have indicated to the employees that I am prepared to meet with them and to make a decision as to whether any further enquiry is necessary once we get this preliminary information.

As things stand nov it appears that we should be able to have this information some time early in January. By that time we will be able to decide where we go from there. MR. NEARY: I thank the Premier and the Ministers for the answers, Mr. Speaker. I am sure we are all concerned. We would not want to see another St. Lawrence on our hands. I wonder if the Minister of Health would tell the House if his department is taking any steps to include acupuncture under M,C.P.? DR. ROWE: No, Mr. Speaker, the department is not taking any action to put acupuncture under medical treatment at this time. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, - MR.CROSBIE: We could make an exception for the honourable member though, Acupuncture on the head would be verv suitable. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! ~~-1!~ Acupuncture on the rear of the minister mi~ht li~ht a fire under him and ~et some action from this ~overnment. ~~- SPEAKER: Order please~ MR. NE~ Sir, I wonder if the Municinal Affairs, who is hid away behind that coloured map we have there in front of him, could tell us if the government ha~ shifted gears on the new dump as suggested by Councillor Gullage in the ttDaily News 11 of October 3? 727 4

November 29, 1974, Tape 1777, Page_ 5 -- apb ~ SPf~:lli The honourable Minister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housinp,: ~---~-PECKFORD (Minister of Municinal Affairs and Housinid: Yes. Mr. Speaker, we have shifted ~ears from first to second to hi~h gear to try to get thing resolved as soon as Possible. ~!Ii,•_ !!.f~ A suoplementary question, "fr. Sneaker: Does that mean that the 7,overnment are still actively nursuing an nlternative to Rob:!.n Hood Bav? .ttI.l_:__ R_E~C~ Mr. Speaker, we are actively oursuin~ a position and a site thnt will be acceptable to all concerned. !:f.R~.kff::.J:IRY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the honourable the Premier (I am sure he is champing at the bit. He cannot wait to get uo on this one) care to indicate to the House when construction is ~oing to start on the Burgeo Fish Plant? _MR.~_S_R.f~ The honourable the Premier: MR..:__-~ORES: The answer is, Mr. Speaker. that we had a session 7270

Tanr>_ 1778 PK - 1 1-1ith ;i delegation from Burgeo today. We have been in continuous negotiations tJith ~foti.onal Sea Prorlucts. t>ith neonle from Ilurr:eo .:tml with the Dennrtment of Regional Fconomic F'.xnanRion, 1 would hone that uithin the not too distant futun, we ,_,.iJ 1 he ah.le to r:ive an affirmative answer to that Question. '~.___l,!'FAV:ETic_ The honourable !-temher for Fogo, HR. F. lJPJSOP.: 'Ir. SpeaVer. noticing the Hon.

Hin:.1.ster of 'T'ransnortation .-rnd f:ornrnunicat1on~ is nut of hifi sPat for the last feu rlaw>, 1 "t,.,·oncte-r 1t he ts out of ther nrovince. anrl if ~o. iR there an Acting "'ffnister of Transnortation nnrl Comrnunicntions? ~'P~, SPrA!<f"Q: The Hon. thP riremier. Yes, he is out of the province. HP is due 11aclc verv !'lhortly, The Acting tJ:fnister is the '·'inister of Puhlic 9orks and Services. Mr. Sneaker. I wonder if the M:in:fster of Soctal Services, thf' Pockf>.t si?.P Dick Tracey that we have - would the minister care, Sir, to clarifv "fP. ),tnnRES : vr. SneakPr. up, ~JEARY: a statement that he mndP.

VE'f;terdav,1ust what p,roups nre r.oinr, to rece:f.ve this increa!'le that the m:fnister announced vesterday? The minister 5aid that V1,non fan:fHei:;. - HR. nnf1Iw: You are wasting your tir--e, whv do vou not ,meal~ nronerlv ? Ftftv-ffve r,ersons. Poulrl the minister care to fnd:fcate what cate1?ori~s? Arc these hlind neonle, disabled, widowR, who are they? There .<1eems to he somP confusion. T do not even recoi;,-nize now. S:f t down. Fat vnur hf'Jlt:t out: ~rn. 1ffAT'Y: Hr.

SnertYP.r, il'l the minister too arrogant to ,rnswe.r these nuest:fonl'l? :!!'.:....."'. .. !PY~ Tnnurl::l.hlP. :~.fif_E~A~ Drder, nJ cane~ ' 1P.

HtJRPHY: He js not fjt to ansoer. ~--=-1.P!~Jl: rirrlcr, n1 eai:ic: T am sure the honourable Pember for flpJ 1 !Aland Ml 111] honourahle tnemh~rl'l nre nw\r~ that whilP thev hnve the rfpht to l'leelt nnm,1P.rfl. fro!'l ministprs, thP: ninistf'r al.e:o h1s thP rfn:ht not to ;inf;wf'r that f1UPRt:f.on if he ;0,0 u:f.i:::heR. ~rr. ~nen!·er. thP minister does not have the r:fPht to Mv that T am not fit to aRl: a nuer::t1on then I a,,;1,, the Sne.a!--er to direct the l--1:fni~ter nf 7275

PV ~ 7 <-'nd:il e::f"rvic.<>f' 10 ,.•fthrlrrM th11t filtl1v, rotten o:t;i.temcnt thnt he 1ust )ffi. 'fFf'PJry' Tf tJ-.c fi.1 ti1y. rotten member "tJOuJd 1it down T Ptmld declare to ,·«----- Thf> rr1ni nter is 1mnnrl inmrntnrv an<l the .mi.rd~tr>r shm1ld be> <lirertf'rl to vtth0,rnv it, ><r>._ "PrAV"P: 0rrler, nlease! r,,·{;wd hv various r,iprnberF and the rr>nir h; nnt taken too ldrirHv to the~e tHnp,r. T fpeJ that the comrnf':nts iust made }.v the Pon. H:fn1.ster of Social Scrvicr,s vpre unnnrl1nr:1entary nnd I would nsk him to retract his stateml'.nt. •~•. FT'!~1~'f..:.

I am awfully sorry, Hr, - ~m. '%!JPp?v_ T c011J d not in all honestv - if T am goinp. to 'he honest to myr,elf. Thank vou verv much, ifr, SneRker - fln a noi.nt of order, Mr. Sneaker. I certn-fnlv agree Pith the fllr:t t'!111t unnar11arnentarv comments should nnt f'p tolerated in the JfouRe hut 1 do not 1·nov :tf Your Honour heard what the 1'--fernher for Bell Island said when hP nent to .:rnk the "fininter of ~ocfo.1 ~r;rvicns n quention. I l>'OUdPr vould he tal<e that brtd n.R m~J 1? The. rules annlv to both side.s of thP. Hou;;e. :.!T:..•-~rt11 '!-_2, T d0 not th-fnJc it :fr; unprtrlinmentary. lf ft is.

Sir, if it is 1mnarlinmentnrv to sav that thP t1onourahle minister iA ;in nMateur or nocl~f't RiZP. 1'4:ck Trnc0v, r tnkf! it hnck. He jq not a nocket l'-ize Dick Tracev. '-lo, that -f.i'l all rivht The honourahle Pemher for Rell Islanrl ~Pems to hnve Inaudible. f'rder, nlease: The honourablP Pe.mr>er for Rell IRJand seems to have J"J vnv of chanrd.np; worcl.,; around which reallv mean the same thin?. in the en<l. T nlr,;o con~ider his wordl'l: to the minister bninp,: unnarliamentarv and woulri 727/

Tane 177R <H'll' h-fm tn unnualifv retraction of them. "'R. NEARY: ! vill. 0f course. S{r. ni=; one friend to ;mother. Hr. ~neal'er, of course nR. H!TRPHY: lie is no frtend of mine. ~~~SPF.£:.}5[1::_, 0rder. nlense! A~_!I9ll._:.~n-rnrR~;_ Here coT11es the ~ordi; of wisdom. 1-m. !'1FARY_:. Hr. Sneaker. I wondp.r - ~~-_<'}'~:., nn ;t rioi.nt of ord/'.!r, 'fr.

Sneaker, H the little 0rnhan Annie vi11 sH rin"m· A~ ~'i--~~fTJt'R: Innudih1A, "T.• __ g[!~ OrdP.r, nbase: Twill withdraw that, \fr, Sneaker, I will v:fthdrnw :It, I iust t;nnted to dnm to the attention of the House, Mr, Sneaker, that the> question asked t,y thP. Hem.her for Rell Island was out of order. Pap;e 147 of Be/'l.uche!'lne: A oueAtion oral or written mUFlt not: (

a) Pe ironic11l, rhetod cal. offemd.ve, or contain emfthf't, innuendo, Fill.tire, or ridicule,,. The memhf!r 1 <: nueRtion t.:as nut of ordPr i.n nll eight counts, It was ironical. rhetoricnl, offensive. it contained an enithet • an innu~ndo, it was Mtire nnd it i.ms ddicule, in ,1.dditfon it •••af! trivinl. vap:uP, or t>'H!an:fn1;leRS - nnd for P-leveri re1uwn,c:i nrw hfs ouestion WRFl out of order. :'{f!.___]'_!l0_'-'S; He Plll reneat thnt ,1.p.ntn now wi1J he. Hf?._ E'PFAYfP. ~. flrder, nlease!

T nf"I Fmre all l-iononr;;.hle TTicmhcrs nre nvnre that HP h;ive thirtv rninut"'B for the onest:!on neriod, If honournhle memhers insist on P:lst{nr time on trivial Points r,f order or points of order which are not reallv Points of order nt all. then it ii:i a comnlete waste of thP. ouestion perfod ns such. ~~- NF.,~.Y,:_ "'rr, Sneal:P.r, if T could renhrase mv question to mv honour:J'rlr. friend, the 'finister of ~,ocial Servicef!. Hould the mini.ster care, and I nm nuite :1erious about thir; - people are confused.

Pould the minir;tt'.'r cnrP to indicnte vhnt ,?rouuR of nPonle on sncial assiRtancP are f!Oing to receive thfs increrrne? It iP:: n i:,;t>mdne n,uei;tion. Well t-rould thf! minister cart> to ani::Fer :ft? He does not 1·now, Jle hnr,; got to wait to pet h::f.s frightened d~nutv on t~levision ngnin, 7278

?fovember ?9, 1 o7 t, T:me 1771 Order. nlr . .ase'. ThP hnnoura'rlf! rrernher for Rell Is};ind Jn cont:!nu:lnr: to nal~e i1 i.tr, Stie-1Yer, could T direct n nuestion to, let me see, the M'1nistPr of Fduc.ation? T 1"Qnder H the Min::i!'>ter of Education would care to :fndirnte to the Hoose the communitjeR that vill hP included under this new school tax nuthoritv, if Bell Island specificn.11v i fl one of these cof'lYJunitienJ Wm. r. __ OT'1'P-7PF.p1EP. WH!lSTFR OF EDtJCATif"!N): •-tr.

Sneaker, I would nrefrr to t;.1h! that n.s notice and ani:rwer it tornorrov hecau;:;:e 1 will want to have n '111P to hn nrecise there, vhHe the major area obviously is known. There are n numher of areai:; outs:l<le of the MUnicinnlitv of St. John's 11nd Mount Pearl. Tt -JR n mattnr in uh:fch one obviouslv would wish to he totally nrecise, so I uill certainlv ta"k:P. :it as nntice and nrovidf' the answer tomorrow. •rr.

FneaYl":r. in a Jip,hter vein, l wonder if the President of Treasury noard uould inform the House _iunt what instructions have been sent out to various goverrment departments concerning their Christmas parties th:f s vear? ""-. SPMKER: Order, please! This is certainlv out of order, it is not one that demnnds nn urR~nt ansrer. MF. ?-ff.A!'Y :_ BAcause Christmas is petting pretty close. Hell, Sir, could J ask the Premier :if he :intends to taire his rol'!d show out of the nrovince any more this year and uhere he - H1v:t t road shoi1? The rond show that the PrPmier had in Boston and New York?

Doer: the Prrrriier and his colleagues intend to take to the road hefore Christmas nnd where vU.l thev be goinP:? And who thev vilJ he meeting? Jnaudihlp. ~o ammer. The tfomt'er for Hernita~e savs, tho one that bacVfired i.n Boston, 4 r. Sneaker, during that <rJnrt:f.culnr tJeel:en<l he found out vh.<tt a hackfire ·wts re,ally all ahrmt. Havin~ said that, I would 1:f.ke t.o sav thnt thi.s nnrt:icular 7279

T:tT'le 1778 n:rour, of nef'tings we have hnd in Neu York nnd Ro.<iton have heen verv successful. Talkinp to t~e financial communitv notentinl investors for the nrovincr, ,the J iVel:fhoorl :is that there Fi.11 be no more P.rouns nrpnnized until the ne~-' nart of the year, if then, hut n analvsis .1nrl rr.<monr;P from theRe first two are bei.nr nnnlvzed and could be of maier Rignif:icance tn tlw '1tovince. tfR. NF.ARY: ~1r. SneaJPr, I vonder if the Premier would care to indicate to the Hous~ Hhnt - Innud1hle. Vou]<l th'! Premier care to inrlicnte to the Romm.

Sir, phv it 1~ ni"ce,;;=:nrv and whnt nurnnse is r,o:ing to he served hv hav:inr. h:i.<i onn nrivate .<iwi tchhonrrl on the eip:hth floor? Do!'>s he have a hotline to ntt1ma or '-'oscow - ~fR. HOOP.ff,,;_ Verv glacllv, !cir. Sneaker, _1u!'lt to r.ivl'>. a ve>.rv rdrnple anS'f<Jer so that the nuhlic can phone rnv office anrl ~et any renon!'le if theY woulrl re:nuire or en.re to. Pell, •~r. SneaVer, I imnder if tiu~ 'Premier could 1ndicat1~ "Phether vou call the Prem:f.er I s office hv dialing S-E-X-S? 'fP. l.fnOT>FS: T have no idea, ur. Sneal·er.

The honourahle the uemher for Rel.J TRl:md vnR the man nho waR out late the other night, not me. Had some !'ltiff comnetition frnM the Premier. 'fr. c:nl"!alrer. Pho :iR the Actinf! M:!n:fster of Hhhwavs in the Hou!'l-e? Iin.FJ>.r<TTFLt· T am, :Sir. Th~re he il'l. rnv old budrlv! 1,iould the Hf.nti:;ter of T'uhlic: '.,1nrl·s.

Actinf': :·:fninter of Plrhvnvs care to :indicate 9Ptm all the hip_hwav worl·er;:; thnt ~mre lni.d nff T(>:Centlv in Ce-ntral anrl Pestern Newfoundland arP r,ninp- to h:: re'1irerF 'T'he Po11. v:fniRtF!r of Puhl:fc HClrh:: aml Se1rvices. !ln!-1.n~._T._ FA1"QfLJ, {Pll'RLTC PnPKS AND ">f"qVTCES)· nnrl. the snm.r ;'lrrive<=i thPv uU 1 all hr. l·ncl· nt wnrl·. 'fP ~- '1f1H'-'CE.. -r'hPv RhouJrl nlJ hP! hntk ,.•hPr> thP snow - UR, _Ff'TIBfIL: YPPs. vn. rnnsnrr: The snme as in your dnv. 72GO

'Tnn0 177M The honour,,1, 1 e •-fe;nhPr for F'oPo. "r, Sneakpr,n mmnli?rr,rnt;;rv to thnt nue-Rt1on. Hon.ld the r,0nournhlr, minister tpl] u,:; FhBt critrr:inn t-rf' l!f'l~ for l;rvinP off hli;,PP;,v vnrker<, Ftth threR, four, and five vears and ROTilf> rdth fjftcen years of i::enricf'? thP s;im0 a,: alvnv~, Aef>inritv Hould bf' onerative Por<l, Sir. Irrnudible. Order, nleru:;e! Tnrtudfhlc. T rlo not mind, Sir. T 1->on<lf'r. Hr.

SneakE"r. if the lfinister of ,J1rnti.ce would care to cot".mPnt on n verv iwriou.<1 ,o:;1.tuation in our nrovince, the l"llltter of vandalism .:i.nd the wave of crir1e that 11:; sneeoing the nrovincP. Would the m:lrd.ster. care tn ind:!cnt~ .iuRt what lendenihin his denartment is shnvinf' in this regard in conin_u vi.t], thiF Vf<ry serious situation in our :e;oc:if>t-V todnv? pnN._T,- A. flTCTC'.-fAt_I: (VINTSTEP, OF JITSTJCF:)· ·I thnnk the honourahle gent1emnnfor ?;ivinp mr. the 0nnnrtunitv, Hr. Sneah2r. It is vith f!ntne, vou could never, not renutntion, hut 7281

November 29, 1974 Tapenc:,. 1779 Page l - MW you can never say that you would do it with pride but I do direct the honourable gentleman's attention to the fact that in the province this year, there is a decrease in vandalism below 1973 and slightly below 1972. In the months of September and October, in the areas policed by the Newfoundland Constabulary. there was a very dramatic down turn in reported acts of vandalism. These are the only statistics that we can use, I have heard the argument that some people do not report minor acts of vandalism but that same situation prevailed in past years.

Insofar as the apprehension of those who commit crimes are concerned, may I draw to the attention of honourable members that we now have in the Province of Newfoundland 800,approximately, police officers, It is by far the largest number we have ever had before in the province. In the City of St, John's, we have in excess of 200 members of the Newfoundland Constabulary, which is 2,02 per 1,000, The national average is 1.35, I think, for Canada. If you look at some of the cities,in Halifax, which have a population of now in excess of 200 ,ODO, since they took in the suburban areas, they have 264 officers and men.

This will give you an indication. The other thing I may say: If one follows the press, one will see that a very high percentage of those committing offences have been apprehended and brought to justice and dealt with very fairly and very equitably by our court. Before I sit, Mr. Speaker, whilst vandalism or crime should and I hope will continue to be the concern of all citizens, I am not very happy about those who atte~pt to create the impression that our Province of Newfoundland is an area where crime is rampant.

The fnct is that the National Association of Chiefs of Police keep, through their statisticans a very close watch on Canadian crime patterns annually. When a city or municipality reaches a certain level, it makes, 7282

November 29 , 1974 Tape no. 177 9 Page 2 what they call 1 the Chief of Police list. You could see the City of Moncton on this year and then next year it is dropped and it disappears. No Newfoundland city has ever come close to even makJng the Chief of Police list insofar as areas, where there has been a serious increase in crime or where there is serious crime being committed.

I think as Newfoundlanders we can be very proud of that nnd having said that, may I assure this honourable House that with the two highly trained and highly efficient police forces we have in this province, that those who feel the avenue of crime is attractive, that their chances of being apprehended are exceptionally high indeed, much higher than in other jurisdictions in North America. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is a question I put to the Pre~ier on three or four previous occasions.

I wonder if the Premier is now in a position to inform the House if his government has entered into an agreement with Trizec, the people who are proposing to build a hotel downtown, to rent office space from Trizec or if they have entered into an agreement recently with any other outfit to rent office space outside of Confederation Building? HR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, first of all that should be directed to the Minis te.r of Public Works. Regarding the Trizec. development• that, because of inflation, is stalled some-what. We are waiting to sec what they do vith the City Council and also to have an offer for space.

At the preserit time, as I understand it, there is no commitment at this moment between '.Erizec and the government. There was an undertaking previously uhich has expired, At the present timr, to the best of my knowledge, there is no undertaking. MR, ROBERTS: A supplementary question, if I might, Si:r. Could the Premier tell us what the undertaking was? 728::l

November 29, 19 74 Tape no. 1 779 Page J MR, MOORES: It depended on a great many conditions, Mr. Speaker, which were never met. There was the agreement with the City Council, an agreement with what kind of a complex would go in the dowtown area. It depended on a great many things. So the commitment is irrelevant for the simple reason that none, of it happened. MR. ROBERTS: Would the Premier undert•ke to table a copy of the commitment? MR. MOORES: There was no agreement aa such. MR. ROBERTS: Well the undertaking, whatever form it took, MR.

MOORES: I would if I could but the fact ia that there was just a lot,basically, of verbal - there was some written correspondence hut nothing that was definitive enough to establish our position, in fact, one way or the other. MR, ROBERTS: MR. MOORES: Would the Premier table what correspondence there was? As I say, Mr. Speaker, I will check with the Department of Public Works, the Minister of Public Works, and see what exactly is available, MR. NEARY: Do we not deduct the time that is wasted by members on the other side of the House? MR. SPEAKER: The thirty minutes for the question period has expired. AN PON.

MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: (Inaudible). Order please! Before we proceed with Orders of the Day, yesterday following a ministerial statement made by the Hon, 1-finister of Social Services, the Hon. Leader of the. Opposition replied to it and there was a point of order raised. I think, hy the Minister without Portfolio and I said that I would rule on it later after I had obtained a transcript of the remarks made by the Hon. Leader of the Opposition. I since, of course, have obtained a copy of the transcript and I think the point of order was centred around the Hon.

Leader of the Opposition questioning the integrity of the Minister 7284

November 29, 1974 Tape no. 1779 of Social Services. Later the Leader of the Opposition said that he had intended it to be the political integrity of the Minister of Social Services. However, what the first intentions of the Leader of Page 4 the Opposition were, of course, are unknown to me. In reading the transcript of his remarks, before he talked about political integrity, and I quote the sentence from Hansard.

The Hon, Leader of the Opposition said: "He did not have the courage nor the integrity nor even the wisdom to say that of the $6. 5 million increase in allowances • , 11 There was no talk of political integrity. Indeed the word integrity is unparliamentary,in most cases, as far as I am concerned. I would ask the Hon. Leader of the Opposition if he would retract that statement, questioning the integrity of another honourable member of this House. MR. ROBERTS: I have no hesitation at all in withdrawing it.

I take it your reference' to what I said. although nobody had the courtesy to show me the Hansard, no doubt is an accurate transcript. I assume it is in order though to say that one's political integrity is a matter of debate if not Your Honour should so rule and so we would know, I have no personal row with the Minister of Social Services, I have a number of political quarrels with him and that is well and good, I meant no personal offence.If the words I used gave it, I withdraw them without qualification, Sir.

MR, SPEAKER: 1 think honourable members should be very cautious in using the word "integrity" in practically any context. It can very often be misinterpreted as being unparliamentary and interpreted in the wrong ~ay, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave of the House in accordance with Standing Order No. 23 that the regular order of the House be adjourned 728!:i

November 29, 1974 Tape no. 1779 Page 5 to discuss a definite matter of public importance: namely. the high cost of living in Newfoundland and Labrador, The present administration, Mr. Speaker, have adopted a hands­ off, pass-the-buck attitude to Ottawa on this number one problem that is so drastically affecting the lives of our people. Mr.

Speaker, does the cost of living crisis in this province have to continue another year or tv,o to the eve of an election or should the elected representatives of the people here today 1 at least, attempt to cope with factors that fall within provincial jurisdiction so that the long suffering citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador,Sir,will not have to endure more bleak, hopeless months of misery, completely abandoned by their government to which every Newfoundlander should be able to look for help in their hour of tribulation? MR. P.ARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, a motion of this nature ought to be referred to briefly and then Your Honour decides whether the matter is a matter for debate. This is a matter which is international, a matter which is world-wide; it is a matter certainly which is urgent in itself. I would suggest, Your Honour, that it is 7286

1-lovernber 29 197 f; Tape 1780 IB-1 not one that lends itself to the urgency of debate at the particular time. ;ut. ROB!'.RTS: I disagree, you will not be surprised to hear, with the gentleman from St. John's East on that point. I cannot think of nny matter and 1 sub~it there is no matter more urgent to debate in this House than the cost of living and how it affects our people. Nobody pretends that it is entirely provincial or even entirely a national matter. I believe it is an international matter and has international ramifications. I think it is clear and well agreed and well understood.

Even the Food Prices Review Board, in what Mr. James McGrath, tbe member for St. John I s East at Ottawa tells us is an excellent report, even they have made some suggestions about what the provincial government might do. t think it is entirely in order and entirely appropriate that we dehate it. There is no other heading on the Order Paper, Your Honour, under which this matter can be debated. So, I submit, that therefore meets the requirements for the urgency of debate.

I submit that Your Honour should allow the motion a~d then the procedure to follow according to our rules. ~!R,• SPEAKER: Ar,nin, while T am sure the matter of the cost of living in escalation of cost of groceries, etc,, is one that concerns all of us. I do not feel that it is a r:i.atter that requires the adjournment of the rer,ular business of this House for a debate at this time. ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion of the Hon. Minister of Justice, a bill, 11

An Act further To :\.'llend The Securities Act,'' read a first time, ordered read 4 second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Hinister of Justice, a bill, 11

An Act Further To Amen<l The Emergency Measures Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On notion of the Hon. Minister of Justice, a bill, ' 1

An Act To A,'Tiend The Condominium Act, "read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Justice, a bill, 11

An Act 7287

November 29, 1974 Tape 1780 IB-2 Further To Amend The Attachment Of Wages Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To ,'\mend The Commissioners For Oaths Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the non. Minister of Transportation and Communications, a bill, ''An Act To Amend The Motorized Snow Vehicles And All-Terrain Vehicles Act, "read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon.

Minister of Health, a bill, j,An Act Respecting The Newfoundland Hedical Association And Governing The Practise of Medicine In The Province, "read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Fisheries, a bill, "An Act To Provide A Pension For The Last President Of The Newfoundland Federation Of Fishermen And For Other Purposes,n read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Income Tax Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon.

Minister of Finance, a bill, ?!An Act Further To Amend The Financial Administration Act, 1973," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Finance, a bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Increase Of Pensions Act, 1974," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon, Minister of Hines and Energy, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Children Of Unmarried Parents Act, 1972," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill,

An Act Further To Amend The Adoption of Children Act, 1972," read a first time, ordered read a second on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, ''An Act Further To Amend The Child Welfare Act, 1972, 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, 7288

:iovember 29. 19 7 4 Tape 1780 IB-3

An Act Further To ,\mend The Social Assistance Act, 1971," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. a bill, 'An Act To Amend The Department of Social Services Act, 1973, 1' read a first tL~e. ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 7289

November 29, 1974, Tape 1781, Page 1 -- aob HR, MARSHALL: Hotion ( 1). MR, SPEAKER: Motion (1) to be moved bv the honourable the Premier. The honourable the Premier: HON, F,D,MOORES (Premier): Mr. Speaker, at this time we are dealing with a vrry important bill before this House. It is a bill that,for the first time in many, manv years,reallv comes through with the fact that we must have fair and equal, proportionate distribution throughout the various districts of our province. Before r,oing into the detail of the Resolution. Mr. Speaker.- A.11 HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) !-ffi. MOORES: Thank vou verv much.

I appreciate that a lot. MR. MARSHALL· Do not be so foolish. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, in speakin~ to this Resolution, first of all I would like to analogize for not having the man UTl to the opposition members until this morning. I thouiht that it would be attached to the bill. I did not know until I received it yesterday and immediatelv uoon finding it, the man showin~ the distribution such as this without the colour Has delivered this morning. I might say also: that with the census that now has to come with redistribution, the ponulation fi~ures will chanr,e substantially in some districts.

However, in the meantime, due to the pooulation increases of the last few years, the censu.q figures on this map, the numbers on this map of populations, I think, will probably be increased a little in every district but some districts particularly, the urban districts and the growth districts will be lar~er than the others. Mr. Speaker. as I said this bill is very important.

It is very important to the way of life of our province, It is going to be verv important that for the first time people will on a nroportionate basis have equal representation in the House of Assembly, First of all; when we voted on this Resolution originally? first when setting up the commission, the matter of fifty-one seats was voted on and it was unanimous by both sides of the House that there be fifty-one seats.

There has been some question about that since and I would like to remind neople as to exactly why the nurnher of fifty-one is important as opposed to the number of forty-two which we oresently have. 7290

~Jover<Jher ''- i 1j]t;. Tnnc 1781. ?age 2 -- aph sunpose neople could sav that we could dn with even less than we have now, however, there are two thinRs to keen in mind, the first not heing as imnortant as the second really. The first one menne; that renresentation w:I 11 be ahle to be done on a more, hopefullv more efficient hasis. Secondly: I would like to hring to neonle'a attention the difficulty governments can have if they have j1.u;t a ma_1ority and have to form a 1J,overnment and a stable backbench and a stable side of the House. In the 1971 election, Mr.

Sneaker, the situation was that orip.inally after the ballots vere counted. there were twenty-one memhers elected from the nartv that I represent, there were nineteen from the opposition parcy, there was one Hr. Bur~ess at the time and there was one seat still under recount.

After the re.sir.nation and the various walkathons that happened in this House at that time, it ended un that as we came in here for the first day (a lot of this transnired after we became the government) we came in and after Your Honour had been apoointed, we had still one sent under recount, we had twenty on the government side (Nineteen actually, with the Soeaker in the Chair) and twenty on the opposition side. Here we were as a government looking at a lar/;.'ler opposition than we were on this side of the House. That is not the reason I am hrindn~ it up now.

I am just saying how difficult it can be if we onlv have nineteen or twenty members, which happened in this case, but taking the closest results you could have which is twenty-two and twentv the other way (One would be the Speaker,) that would leave tw"enty-one peonle. I have said many times before that in order to have a cabinet and government in this province, I said it before and I found out the difference, that it could be as low as twelve or fourteen. I have found since. Mr.

Speaker, that that is impossible,with the complications, the intricate dealings of government today, the tremendous amount of intergovernmental negotiations, the operations of departments in order to do them oroperly. I would say and say in all honesty that fifteen or sixteen 7291

Novemher 29, 1974, Tape 1781, Page J -- apb would be the bare minimum if you stretched it to that degree. Well. if you say sixteen people, the Speaker, the Premier. that takes eighteen oeople, if you had twenty-two in the House that would leave four backbenchers. In other words, for all intents and purposes, Mr. Sneaker, you would have a government by cabinet which I think iR very bad. I think it is verv unhealthy. With fifty-one members the minimum anyone can have in order to be elected, in fact, 7292

Tanp l7P2 is tPPnty-Rf'.VPn. Tr; thnt ;t ;,t;ilem,,te, twentv-six, twentv-seven? Which 1enVPFl ;rn nmrile number of nenr,lf' fnr hncl~ l 0 ench dutie!'l uhich are very frntinrtnnt and ali::.o a ~:i1>r,:Pr scor,e to .<ielect n cnhinet from. So, I thin}• "r. Spr>a¼:Pr, tlcnt t 1u>: f'usiness of f:fftv-onr seats is an imnortant thin~ for t'1e future that this nnrticul11r nrov:fnce has at thir: narticular time. Ve have h~en nccufH:'.rl a!"- upll that this Redintrihution JHll is o-ivinl? Aeatri to urhrm Rren.i::. ,.,c1rtkt11:tr1v St.

John 1 s as mentioned and cnntinnnuq}v, The f,1ct i~ thnt the rurnl ;1P.:1t!'l under thiA redii::tdbution hav0 1--r>f'n fncrf>,'ll'lf>d and incrPn<it>rl J'1:uhstnntfally, T will hr: p;o::fnp; into that in n much more rletail a little later. 'The fru:t is that there have heen none tnf"er> :n;,1v hut ns n m;itter of fa.ct a freat mnnv nrlded, A1;, T sav I will 11 e de.llinp, ~-•fth that in Rome detn:11 in a fel' moments. Pt> h;1ve be.P.n nccu!'led of g~rryrn:mrlering as such.

T noticed the Leader of the f'lnpoRftion on tf'!lev:ision lai;t Pveninr l'invinp: that tlds r,overnment uere ff'.'!.rrvmnnrlerinp, lU:e nevpr hefore. 'lo,,., ur.

Snenker, anvonr vho liverl in thiR nrovincr: for thP. last twenty-five years realizes ju Rt how nonl'lemdcnl that narticul-?.r stnt0ment fr;, T thin!.: t•hnt he meant wa!'l he 1°•as used to Joevmanderinp: ;inrl dtrl not rPcogni?.e P,ood n~form t.•hen he has H. 'l'he fa.ct 1n that nm..1 there ifl no <lf!:;trict jn the province that 'tJ'i.11 be ttndt>r n,nn1 nenr,lt.> with thP e.xcention nf tt~o, Rnd t'hnRe twn nre in Lahr:tdor rs1hich t•nr, l'on1• for ot'vious ren~mns, the verv Prent <lifficultv of represf'ntino the rort$t of Lnhr:idor and a1i::o thP. f!necinl cnntrihutioP that T,abrador i.fl mnldnP- to this nrovince nnd H Pns deci.drd that n mini.mum of three and n-hnlf ;:;eat,; R1iou1d ~e there. f;o thP t1.ro that .tre under 8,non, Pr.

SpeaYer, are in tahrndor, nnd there nre none over 12,nnn with th£'. PXCP:ntion nf roncer,tion Bnv South r,;·J-dch i!'l iuRt slip:htlv nver. 11 rrviouslv, ' 1r. SneAkt'.!r, uliPn r.10 talt- ahout distrfhut:ion of seats, •·e hwe Pon0 for :-i.11 intents and nurnoi;es from nonulntionl'l of a.non to 12.nno. It i:<: :1n thclt r:1npp nher0.vPr. !'revious]v we had a d:il'l'tr1ct w:tth ,1ust ahout s,nnn votr-r:<:, ve hml anothl.'r rli<::tr:tct in this nrovinc8 with J/1,nnri voter!>. Tnau<l:1.1->le. tJow, ""'r. Sneaker. 1-1hen vou take 1L ,nnn - nonulati.on~ I am ,;arr:, 729J

PY, - 2 there Vi1!'i- where vou hnrl rr,nl1v n verv unfnir n:mrep~ntntion for the rieonlr, of the rirovince. The l,rnder of the Onnos1tion and his col leap.:ues,at that ttMe Pl->en thi'lt nrent Tl'liscarrjagf' of 1ll!<tic(', :ff vou 1:H-e, of riir:representnt:ion of thf' nerm1e vas in fnct. it uas there, at that time, they never mentioned a wnrrl ahout it. ~ioth-fng nhout red:i.r;trihution.

PothinR ahout changinp: tJhnt wns thP vcrv ohvfous Liheral rmsit:ion that had l">P.:en established for ohv:iou!l n~ason!' hv th!'> ohvious iPntlmnen and now all of n smhlen th;:i,t W(' hnve got f,1 tr renreSPntation comini in, He see that everybody is unset. Tt i.s n verv fnnnv thin;1. to me. "fr. ::peaker, thAt the only time th~v pet unset is t,,}len thev nre not in a nosition to do very mucl• a'rout it. T?hen thev PerP. :fn n no!'littnn to dn !'lomethinp about it, ur,set WaR not allowe<l.

The fnct .:ts tJ-:nt we have heen accused of ch11n1"'1np.:, r.errVJTtan<lering n.r,; t-'e have f'een called, thin nn.rticulnr man for the hen~fit of the ?.C. Pnrtv. That is vrong. ~-!othin~ could he more urone, '!'he boundaries beinp.: changed doe . .:; nnt mean thnt the voter, the cinme number of voters, :i.f thev want, tdth thf':ir noliticnl nersuasions can vote for anv rmrtv.

Now they will he votinP in districtB thnt hnve fn1.r renre!'lentation an,l not 1ust nronortioned as thev ~"ere hefore ;mil ,'.l/'l the Opposition were Vf!ll u~ed to, Tf the f!nnosit:fon is indeerl amdout; fnr an f:':1ect1.on, distribution w111 not affect the result H most of the neonle vnnt to sunnort them or if thev ~~ant to RUPPOrt us. The Ler1der of the Opnosition has to hlame. t sunnose. something or _,.nrneone for Phnt Pe 1·nows i..::: goinP: to hnrmen, Pe umier~tnnd, 1,fr, Speaker, vhv hf'. 1s vorried.

Ht>: hn.::: ,1 p:rA.nt deal to he worriPd ahout, The Leadt.•r of the f!nno,:;:!.tion 1~as worriNl ahout this narticular Reforri Rill, last evenintt on tel(>vitdon in 7iri ot•>n inimit:ihlP fash:fon, T supnose, he made the most rfrliculous cofT!nent T bwf' heard hi.m rnnlce for a long t·hile and th,1t Pas the fact that he thoupht thev wArr! gcdn~ to win the next ell"'ctinn. However hf'. Raid, '1r. Sneaker, at that ti.me and he sairl it verv unenthi1s-i.:1stic111lv thnt hr exnectecl thi.s which, of course. t do not see lmw l1e could.

Tieca.tt!'le Pf'e:n vou realize that nt the rccPnt J,ihc.rn1 J.crndcrsl->in rnnvet>tion, 7294

Novemher 29, 1974 Tape no. 1783 the honour ah le leadership convention on the first ballot I the Hon. Leader of the Opposition did not even have fifty per cent of the Liberal votes in this province. He has a very poor chance, Mr. Speaker, of getting a majority of all the votes in the province. Hr.

Speaker, it has nothing to do with this hill Page 1 - MW but t mi~ht inform the honourable gentleman opposite now that in the next provincial election, not because of the redistribution of seats hut because the people of this province have no confidence in the Liheral Party as it is presently constituted - the people are recognizing the good job that the government is doing. The Liberal Leadership Convention as against the people I have with me - MR. F. B. ROWE: MR, HOORES: MR. F, B, ROWE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Yes, boy, ~o ahead. Would the Premier mind sitting down on a point of order, Mr. Speaker? "IR.

MOORES: I have nowhere to sit, I have my chair gone. \Ill, SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): Order please! In anticipating the member's point of order, I think the Premier was straying somewhat from the topic of the resolution and 1 believe he recognized that. AN HON. MEMBER: ~R. SPfcAKER, AN HON, MEMBER: MR. F. R. ROWE, (Inaudible). A certain amount of leeway is provided. (Inaudible). This is the first time I have ever experienced the Speaker of the House of Assembly raising a point of order on behalf of a member of the opposition. l was about to mention the fact that the Premier was quite irrelevant.

I do not know what the Liberal Leadership Convention has to do with redistribution or what the result of the next election has to do with redistribution, I suggest that the Premier be ruled out of order on the grounds of irrelevancy and return to the resolution. 7295

Novemher 29, 1974 Tape no. 1 783 Page MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stngg): The honourable member i.s quite correct. He is quite correct on two points. I should not have anticipated 2 his point of order I although I was about to rise - I -would have risen very shortly. While the remarks were informative, they were nevertheless irrelevant, MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I realize that I might have strayed from the resolution and for that I apologize. I could have said it very simply that in the next election they are going to be clobbered. But, Sir, to get back to the resolution.

The changes proposed are not major except in a few areas and in a few areas they are major and I hope that in this particular case I can deal with them, as I say, in just a moment. At the time the royal commission hrought in its first report those people who were against it at that time made representation to the commission when they had hearings. Now there were a lot of people, ~r. Speaker, at that time who were satisfied with the first report.

The fact that they were satisfied when the changes came in the second report, they had no opportunity to make their representation and they automatically were eliminated from the second set of changes. Since the second report came in and it was too late to make representation, I can honestly say that there have been literally hundreds of letters of protest, petitions from councils, clergy, a great many se~rnents of society being very, very upset with the fact that they never had a chance after the report was changed to make representation.

At this time, Sir, I would like to say that the commission are doinr, a very necessary and what I think was basically a good job. I think it was a thankless job in many ways. It ts a job that had to he done in the province, Without their particular report, redistribution, in fact, would be impossible if it were going to be done fairly. 7290

November 29, 19711 Tape no. 1783 Page 3 However, I do not think that Yith the second report of the commission that there was enough consideration, I do not think there was enou~h recoRflition of the history and tradition to the degree that lt is important in our province. The sort of history and tradition I nm talking about, Mr. Speaker - as 1 say, I think it means a lot to our people - in that the second report for instance eliminated the District of St. Mary's as an example, a district that has been there since 183!;. It was in the first report but it Yas not in the second.

Before you eliminate a district that was there that long and that basically has the surrounding population that can qualify it, I think that sort of thin~ should have been studied possibly a little further than it was. Another thing of tremendous importance which I do not think was given the proper consideration in the analysis hy the commission was the community of interest because even though geographically we may have many problems in this province with scattered populations and so on, the fact is that community of interest within a district is terribly important.

I will be giving examples of that continuously as I review the districts here. Economic community of interest, transportation through roads, centres 729(

November 29, 1974 Tape 1784 IB-1 of trade, culture, recreation and all these things that make up the hub of the district or of the community. The fact is, Hr. Speaker, that we have reduced some districts population wise because of the tremendous growth potential in those districts. This was done intentionally and I am talking particularly of places which show comparatively low population on this map but which will catch up very. very quickly because the industrial development in these areas is and will be substantial.

I am thinking, for instance, of Grand Falls which is starting to grow very rapidly and Burgeo, Bay d'Espoir - I mention that, Mr. Speaker, because the deep water port at Bay d'Espoir has probably the best deep water port potential of just about anywhere in this'province. Also in that area. of course, we have the Bay d 1Espoir hydro project which can be a hack up of any energy sensitive industry that may locate there. I would think that the population in that area will grol4' substantially.

The district in fact that has been added from the Trinity, Bonavista Bay areas - this is where the district has been added from the one that was taken away in the Northern area as the commission had done originally - is the one called here Bellevue which in fact is the district that surrounds Come By Chance where it ie fairly obvious that growth is going to take place comparatively rapidly, a district certainly that could not be carved up because those areas of Trinity and Bonaviata Bay which I will be going into in a moment have probably the least representation, population to member wise, of just about any district in the province, Now, if you take some of the outskirt districts of St.

John's, like St. John's East Extern, St. John's North, that is a very inflated example of what can happen, I am talking in the rural districts now, Mr, Speaker. Those districts of Bonavista North, Bonavista South, Trinity North, Trinity South were very, very large population wise, rural dietricte. Once, Mr. Speaker, you have made one minor change, the fact ie, of course, that then that leads to other changes for population reasona and what have you, As I will explain just a little later, Sir, thmre are very few major changes, The ones that are I will do my very beat to underline and explain. 729U

!Sove:nhcr 29. 1974 Tape 1784 rn-z The one thing I can say, Sir, before going through each of the districts which I lnten<l to do in a moment, is the fact that this will he the fairest method of district representation of districts b the electoral r.:ap that this province has ever had. There was no devfo.tion from the twenty-five per cent upwards, downwards leeway. As a matter of fa,c.t, by far the t1ajority of the districts are near the averar,e. For the first time we are being given fair representation to all the people of the province.

Now, Sir, whet I would like to do is deal with the districts independently and individually so that we can see exactly what we are talk-lnr, about. This, Sir. is taking some time and it will take some time. The fact is that this particular hill, this particular debate is of major significance to the province in the years ahead. First of all, starting with the Labrador district of Henihek which was in fact, as we know, Labrador West before - the population there is approximately 11,000, just slightly more than that.

I think looking at Labrador and the growth potential of Labrador City, ~abush and possibly Julienne Lake in the not too distant future, when we look at this I suppose it could be easily said that there could be two districts there. For now, I think the one district because of its compactness because of its community of interest, one district would be adequate and will give good representation for the area although, as I say, I think in the next redistribution, I would be very surprised if there were not t\.tn districts from that particularly, very rapidly growing district.

There is great potential for a development, as we know - there is no secret to that - and it is in fact the same as the first and second commission reports. So, for those very same reasons. we are dealing with this here now. The second district of !i'nakaupi includes in our particular redrawn map here the Town of Happy Valley and Goose Bay and Churchill F:i,lls and Mud Lake. The fact is that this has been put in one district for a very real and meaningful reason, ,'\-i HONOURABLE MEMBER: North West River. 7299

november 29, l!J74 Tape 1784 IB-3 ~-tR. HOORES: And North !Jest River. I beg your pardon. There is a major change from the second commission report. It is the same as it was in the first commission report. I believe, Hr. Speaker, that it should be such because that particular district is compact. In fact it has a very great and real industrial potention. With the development of the Lower Churchill - I think the member who lives in Happy Valley would agree - the industrial potential of that particular area, the industrial development with the base being turned over for domestic use, with Gull Island, as 7300

Novemher 29. 1974. Tape 1785 RH - I I say with the possibilitv of the offshore oil and gas, whatever. The fact is that the Happy Valley, Goose Bay, Churchill, Northwest River. Mud Lake area has a future which is very industriallcertainly when you compare it to the coast itself. Actually they will have nothing as a way of life, a quality of life in common with those people living in Coastal Labrador as t-:e know it. Generally, Mr. Speaker, in the second commission report, the town of Goose Bay and Happy Valley, these two towns were split.

The fact is, of course in my opinionJthat it is ridiculous to have Goose Bay here split from Happy Valley here, Goose Bay representing this part of the world and Happy Valley representing that part of the world. The community of interest obviously between these two towns is great. The community of interest is one that can only be carried on basically between the two towns.

There are identifiable areas with the same problems and as I know the member for Labrador North agrees,that with the development of Gull Island, the inter-tie that has to be done to the Upper Churchill and from there to Esker, Esker where the rail line brings in the materials to build Gull Island; the Upper Churchill inter-tie, the road communications which have to go to the Lower Churchill, the obvious sea-transport port to Happy Valley-Goose Bay, "1hich has to go into the Lower Churchill.

That will mean in fact that that district within itself will be inter-tied by a road link which I think is once again the only part of that eastern part of Labrador that will be totally inter-tied by a road within their own district. The population there, Mr. Speaker, is approximately sixty-five hundred persons. However, the district is exceptionally important in the future of this province and I think it probably has more opportunity far growth than any other district in the province. I do not think there is any question about that.

I \<i'Ould seriously say right now that with all the possibilities for growth there are in this province, and there are a great many, the area that I have mentioned here, particularly the Goose Bay-Happy Valley Area has more potential for re.al growth than any other

section of the province. 7301

November zq. 1974. Tape 1785 RH - 2 So I think in fact that sixty-five hundred people that make up the population there now will very rnpidly incrense, The district in fact is thP same as the first report of the royal commission, Now, ~Ir. Speaker, to ~et to the Eagle District or the Coastal Labrador District, which in fact p;oes from Mary's Harbour to Nnin. if we are talkinR about communities the population there is forty-three hundred, Tt is a very small population, by far the smallest of any district in the province.

However, the fact is there is a tremendous amount of coast line between Nain and Mary's !!arbour, which is approxi­ mately four hundred miles. It may be a little more than that hut certainly not much. It is a very small number of people but a hur,e area with preat responsihili ty. ~R. WOODWARD: Saglek? People living in Sap,lek? '1P:. MOORES: People livinp in Sa~lek? How many? '!R. WOODWARD: Twenty-one. HR. MOORES: Americans or Canadians? f!R. WOODWARD: No, all Canadians. '!R. MOORES: Newfoundlanders or Canadians? MR. WOODWARD: Newfoundlanders. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Are not all Newfoundlanders Canadians? ~.

MOORES: Sorry, Mr. Speaker, I shall ~et back to the subject at hand. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, with the exception of the twenty-one Newfoundlanders that the ~ember for Labrador North spends time with in ~arlek, other than these particular people, to whom I apologize for havinr neplected them, the fact is that this district is approximately four hundred miles from Mary's Harbour in the south to Nain, the northern most community for all intentR and purposes. AlthouRh a lot of people did not realize it, Mr.

Speaker, and I do not thi.nk most people do is that from Happy Valley around to Mary's Hnrhour is three hundred miles, from Goose Bay around to Nain is four hundred miles. So in fact hy coastal route the old Labrador seat of Goose Bay around to Nain :f.s no larRer in fact than the coastal seat from North 7302

Tnne 17R5 RH - 3 ~inln to ~nrv',; Harbour. T think that is a fact in actual mileage. So, fir Speaker, ,:e are not sayinr that the district is :in fnct larger. Tt is no larr:er, The fact is though, Mr. Speaker, that it has n verv distinct community of interest. As I was Mentioninp.: a lot of people do not re::lize that, from Happy Valley to Smokey is approximately at the entrnnce to r.roswater Bay is approximately 150 miles. So if you ;-re in 1Lnr,py Valley ro:inr- hy boat to do the coast you have to ~o 150 rrdleg in fact, before you even turn the corner to go north to !-fakkovik. Inaudible. '"'~-M~.:2!:£~~-!

P.ip,olet il'l on the south side, S:.tr. T wns talking- about r,oinP:: north that time, Inaudible, ''1R. \fnmu:s: Ve;;, 1 w,1,<; talkinr: about p,oinr up the Labrador North roast. So you hnve r.rosuater Bay and turninr. left to Makkovik, I was not talkinp about the Labrador South as we traditionally know it. AN HONOURABLE HE½BE~: Inaudible. ?1R. MOORE1: Rip.olet is on the north side, AS HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MOORES: So it was always in Labrador South, w~s it not? A2'1 HONOURABLE MEHRER: Always in Labrador North. "fn_, "!OORES: Now, 11:r. Soeaker, can ve have this resolved over here.

It \Jil!,J not south, tt is on the north side of the hay but it was in the s0uth dfatrict. I apriloghe for both of you beinf! confused. I am sorry. \fR. '1FRPHV: The honourable members did not know their districts. ''!R. 11.0fJRES: Well. thev never visited them. It is alright. !1r. Speaker, 730.:l

PK - 1 for thev do not l·nm: ,,;hat thev <lo. ~~r.-. HOfJPFS • ~fP • "nflP f'::: 'fr. Snenl·er. ser1ou,dv the nr!'!n th;:it ue are. talV:inp, ahout -----· ----· on the roar-:1tal nrf'.a nart of the Coast of Lahrac'or has verv, very <lifferent nrnhJems thn.n nnv of the other two nrr>,11,s of Lahrador. As a mi:ttter of fact tld.s coastnl ,1ren hns riroM.ems ti-i.nt a!'l V'!t rem:i.:ln to he solvr..d.

There ifl nothinp_ of nnv meanir1r,:ful nction Pith the ~xcention of nonoint:fnp: another commis.e;:lnn am! the cotn1:1.is!'linn hroup,ht in a eood report ns to what can he done to heln solve the nrohlern~. nresP.rve the ~,,ay of life that the neoole of Fap,Je or tahrrtrlnr roast, if vnu lil·e, have. "r, SneaitP..r. in that re!?ard and T sunnose I am stravinp from tlie suh1ect nr>nin, T do not mean to, thnt the ~overnMent's int1>ntion to develon thP resource rltweJonment cornoratlon Mhic.h idll onlv deal tdth th!.'!

Con~t of J,.1.Prnrior nnrl ,.;ldch wHl hr> snmeth:fnp of dehnte later on, is FlOtnething: verv mP,1ninp,ful to discus!'! in this rrr,ar<l. Tt :f"! i:i diff:lcult !'tent, trr. Sneaker, lt nrel'lrmts n p,reat challenpe nnrl unl:!l·e th~ unnonulnr viPl<• of, T mmnose, mnny, mnnv neonle for mnnv. manv ve:1rn.

T thinl· that narticular dh:tric:t p.:lven the onnortunity and .-:or,,p A.1:0,;:f.e;tnncr, h11s n Much prentF>r future thnn any of us hnvP recofmizrd herr.tofore. 'T'f1e n(>;::,:t diRtri.ct. 11r. t:;neal--Pr, the SbraitR ntr:tr:fct ~,h:fch repre,c;t"nts na.rt of LAr'rndrir nnd the orip:1ne1 1--ounr!arv line nut it' hv the comrni!'lRion for t:he northPrn nart of the Nortl1ern Ppn-f,r,i:;ula. 1'he f1'ct ii:; th;tt th1.s d:f !'ltrict 11;i;:c:;; n0n111,1tio11 of nnnroximn.t',!lv 11,1>nn. Tl•e fact in al.cin, Hr, Sne.al·er, unliP'e tl,P..

Hnnnv 1ln1Jf'v Area. thr coaRta] area or manv other Y'.noNn1 nt leAst todnv, r;rowth nreas 1 thr 1 il·elihnod of r11rdrl rrowth :fn thiR nrpa nonulationuii:a• Junlesn rmrneone can tr1l me diffprentlv, I do not sPe uhPrP- the rnp-td nonulat:fon r,roPth rr11llv uilJ com!" from. The fnct. if'> that the f'l(>;COnd corrmtssion re•mrt, str. Sneaker, the Town of C:t. Anthrm" ~.•,1~ senn.rntfl<l from the Stra:ft,c; District - Tr has bepn rdnce lqnn f.thenevE>r the bounrl;:iry waR firRt - ''R, MOOP.f'S: Hell maybe. 1'r. ~neaker, the fnct that :ft was senarated WAR the re:ison that the nrosneritv on the St.

Barbe N"orth CoaRt and the Str,Tits of Lahrador hnR not T'ro!'lnPred mor~ than 1,t hns. 7304

Tape 1786 PK - 2 411 P.ORF'.R.T~: the houndarv line •••• "P. MOO'PF,:::: The fact i!'l, }.fr, Bpeilker, I thinl, thnt havinJ? St. Anthony in t½at narti.cular df~tri.ct ;!:iv~i:; it a point nf focus, n noint of recreation, trade. all the trade in th1A area hasically r,oes to St. Anthonv nnvway, Thia sf'ould he the capital of this district. I am sure the Hon, Leader of the Orlt1ordtion ,:ho 1s making these remarl:s can certainlv represent this rlbtrict :fn an in:fmitahle stvlA hecnu,:;e when he ~oes to the district he h;1s nnP he onlv ,i:~oe!'l: to St.

Anthony so t am 1mre the same thing will apply AN HO:"l. upmfR: That is vhv hP hna Anvw-ay, Mr. Sneaker, t do not mean to get into partisan digfi at this point - AN HON,!~ 'm. •ronRFS: Inaudible. tAlkinR ahout. Is that the fl'!utual interest of this district, is lurnberinR? LuMherin?. in the Main Brook Area and both sides of the Straits. AN tTr)N. \ff:IBER: Do not be makfnr fun at him. I dfrl not knov it W<Hl possible. Sneer, veR! Laugh, no! A'J HnN, 1-.fp,fAF:P,! InnucHhlP., \-11)~~:.!2,RF<;! Yr. Snea1':er, - A~ FfJ!-:,~,;.:,_ Inaudihle. ~J.?.f.f~ (STAGG): Order, nlease! vn.

MOORES: t thin:V the most important part of this rarticular redistribution - A.N J_lnN. '1F"oi"Jff-P: Inaudible. HP_. "'Of1RFS: nh, I nm Rorrv, Sir. 'TTL SPF~A.KFR (STAr.G): This is a very Rerious debatP. in order for the Hon. the PrPmier to be heard i.t is necessary that he turn avav from the microphone at times, and I thinY honournhle mrmhers on hoth sides should he quiet, refrain from ~oenYing unlPss thev have th~ floor. Than!~ vou, "-'r, Sneaker.

As J vns snvi.ng, ~fr, t think the most imnortant factor of this nnrtkular ne,-; Rent ts the fact thnt 1-•hile St, Anthonv heinP, the centre of hulk, secondlv, the fact thnt the Stra1t!'l rrnrt of Labrador and the Island Strntts Rect1on hninn re~re~cnteO here - the fact that they are toRether and 1111ve one memher, l thin¥, !>:fr, it ts verv 1.mrortant. Now there will he a p:reat r.anv peonle disrigreE> n:fth that. The fact iFI the talk of the Lahrador and the T.:;land nart of the nrovince heinp, ~enarated, the fact that peonle have gotten 730:5

PY - 3 ern0tiorn1 nr'ont one doinp- thr- other thinr nnrl the rthPr dninr>; the C't'½er, 1 tl:11n1·. even at the stnrt, Sir, of having shared resnoni:;1.Mlitv in c1 7306

November 29, 1974, Tape 1787, Page 1 -- apb seat itself, I think it is a good thin~. I think it can do nothinP, hut good. I think that at least someone in the House will he able to talk with on~ voi.ce about two problems which are,in fact, the same and not with any degree of dissension which sometimes happens now. Tne fact is, Sir, that - !l~~ .~E!'~RY: (Inaudible) MR. ½OO_RES: Hr. Speaker, I realize that you mentioned a few momants ago thnt these sort of remarks should be ruled out but I cannot resist.

The ~!ember for Bell Island saying that a professor of logic would be needed to sort it out - maybe that is the reason, Sir, he cannot. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) '·fR. MOORES: That you? !1R. _._i~.F:.~Y: Why do you not join Rowan and Hartin? _HR!_MOORES: Why do you not? You will have nothin~ else to do after the next election. Mr, Speaker. the next district we P,o throu~h to explain here is the one of St. Barbe which is lar~er now than it has been in previou elections, with a population of anproximately 10,100 people.

We will extend it from Port au Chaix, or I guess it was Adey1 s Cove West previously, up to Plum Point and including Plum Point which makes it a lar~er district. The other thing about this district which is now a very larr,e one, much larger by the way than the one everyone seems to be complainin~ about in the Straits of Belle Isle Area, is the fact that it is a much larger district physically. Much. Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to argue with the honourable member but I can assure him that the coastline here is much larger than the coastline we are talking about here. MR.

F.B.ROWE: Would the honourable the Premier permit a question? ~~ MOORES: Yes boy. MR • .I._.B.ROWE: Yes "boy". What does that mean, Mr. Speaker? Can the honourable the Premier or anybody - '.:...li!.·.J::129JIBS: I did not realize it was the man on the other side speaking, Mr. Speaker. 730(

November 29. 1974, Tape 1787, Page 2 -- apb ~!.. F.B.ROHE: Mr. Speaker, is the Premier ROing to retract that statement or what? MR. NMRY: MR. F.B.ROWE, MR. MOORES: Great stuff! Great stuff,coming from a Premier. Is that an honourable thing to - What are you trying to say? Come on and say it. MR. F,B,ROWE: That is almost as bad as the speech on T.V.the other night, Mr, Speaker. MR. MOORES: I am glad you watched. MR. F.B.ROWE: I watched with - MR. SPEAKER (Stagg), The honourable member has been given the courtesy of leave to ask a question: if he wants to make a speech he will have to request that as well. MR.

F.B.ROWE, Mr. Speaker, I shall ask a question. Would the honourable the Premier indicate to the House the miles of coastline on the Straits

section of Labrador and the miles of coastline on the Straits

section of the Belle Isle seat. The Straits of Belle Isle seat on the Northern Peninsula, the miles of coastline. Secondly~ would he indicate the miles of road in the Straits of Belle Isle District, on the Labrador side and the Newfoundland side as compared with the miles of road in the St. Barbe District. Toe Premier made the statement that the St. Barbe District was a larger district than the Straits of Belle Isle District. The two factors that he was using were the roads and the coastline. I submit that the coastline in the.Belle Isle District is longer than that in St.

Barbe District as well as the length of the roads. MR. MlORES, Mr. Speaker, the distance from here to here is obviously a longer stretch of coastline except that you go - I must say as he asked about the roads - the road from L'Anse-au-Clair to Red Bay I will admit is in atrocious condition. That I will admit but there is a road there. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR._MOORES: You say there is not a road there? SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR. MOORES: Well, there is a path, There is what the Liberal Government .7308

:lovember 29, 19711, Tape 1787, Page 3 -- aob called a road when they out it there. A~! JJON. HEM.BER: Hore than the Tories out there. MR. M~ Mr. Speaker, anywav from L'Anse-au-Clair to RPd Bav the only communities in this

section of the Straits of Belle Isle, in fact, is connected by a road of sorts. The fact is that White Bay North, I think, with the possible exception of Conche and I am not sure of this - There is a road to Conche. HR. ~Q_(lRES: There is a road to Conche? HR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) MR. MOORES: Sorry! I apologize. Croque and Grandois does not but basically all these areas are in fact connected by road to the best of my knowledge. AN HON. MEMBER: Yes boy! J\.~ _!!91:!,._ MEMBER: (Inaudible) HR. r-m..9~ He know. He are aware of the fact of the - ~_! HO!i_._ MEMBER: (Inaudible) ~-IR. MOORES: And the cost.

The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that I would like to get hack to the St, Barbe District here. The fact is that it has been extended up to Plum Point which enlarges the district population-wise by quite a bit. The other thing is, even though there are 10,000 there now, the population of this district should have ~reat growth potential for the simple reason that the national park will be going here,which I think vithout question, the tourist support trade will lend itself to the growth in population.

The zinc mine at Daniel's Harbour will certainly add itself and with the mineral resource potential of this huge area which is now looked upon as having the outstandin~ qualities that the Raie Verte Peninsula was looked upon to have at one time and still has to a lesser de_gree, the fact is that this district is going to be. once again, very prosperous and I think the population will grow. fl..N. HON. MEMBER: What is the population? HR._}'!Q9~ 10,10(). HR. ROBERTS: The original one the commission recommended was 10,034.

November 29, 1974, Tape 1787, Page 4 -- apb There is somethin~ wrong with somebody's fi~ures somewhere. MR. tf.0_QR£:, Well, it is 10,140. ~-_!9_!ERTS: This one is 10,034. MR. MOORES: I think you will notice in the first one that the border ended just south of Plum Point. This one is just north of Plum Point. MR. _JWB~ There are more than seventy people living in the area where the change has been made. !i!h_ MOO_~ I can only take it from the census figures we have.

The fact is that we are not arguinR about thirty or forty people in these districts because the new census figures as the Leader of the Opposition well knows, when they are done they are going to change these fi~ures substantially, I would suggest as I did earlier, Mr. Speaker, that they will be upwards, The fact is that the community of interest for this narticular district, Mr. Speaker, 7310

November 28, 1974 Tape no, 1788 Page 1 - MW is much more from Plum Point down to Port au Choix, from Brig Bay to Port au Choix., the traffic 1 would suggest is much greater in this direction than it is going north towards Nesbit. I am sure that as they come, they will either come to Port au Chaix or they will come down the coast to Corner Brook or what area have you. In fact the community interest for St. Barbe itself is very much in line with the sort of thinkinr, we had. The fact is that this is virtually the same as the first commission recommendation and one which, 1 think, is basically correct.

The White Bay, Baie Verte Area here once again is very similar to the first commission except that lt was cut off here and I will explain why I think that was not really the most sensible thing in the world in a moment. I will admit first of all that the population is 11,900. The awkward

section of this district, Mr. Soeaker, and I will be the first to admit it, is the

section of Roddickton itself - Roddickton, Englee that particular area. Harbour Deep, not so, because they trade I would suggest with Baie Verte now - HP, ROBERTS: JaCkson's Arm And Englee are relatively small. HR. MOORES: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Englee, Roddickton, Bide Arm, those three communities. MR, MOORES: Yes, I agree, Mr, Speaker, that that is an awkward

section of the district. To put it into the Straits District would have been far too large, To put it into St. Barbe, it did not make sense. Basically the first commission had it this way and that is exactly the reason we put it this way. Of course, by far the largest part of the district is on the Baie Verte Peninsula, MR, ROBERTS: Would the Honourable Premier permit a question? I will deal with this at some length. The question is with reference to his statement that there have been representations from people to whom the second report was not acceptable, and they did not have a chance to state so publicly - well agreed. Nov that is one area 7311

Novemher 29, 1974 Tape no, 1788 Page 2 where the commission changed their first report and the second report for just the reasons the Premier has been touching upon. My question, Mr. Speaker, is whether he or the government have received any representation from anybody in the area or anybody with reference to the area for that matter requesting that it be changed back to the first report as opposed to the second report? MR. MOORES: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. If we have, I will certainly check it. I would not say so in this case because that is the reason it was changed in the first place.

The commission drew it that way in the first place. It was changed back and it will be changed back again. MR. ROBERTS~ Yes. MR. MOORES: The fact is •Mr.Speaker, as the honourable member well knows, to put these three communities into this area would make that area far too large with the populations. MR. ROBERTS: Has the commission recommended their solution? MR.

MOORES: Hr, Speaker, if I might say so, the commission was changing this also they put the third seat in Baie Verte, the hie Verte Peninsula, ignoring the fact that the Bonavista and Trinity Bay Area, those two particularlyt have the population and the gross potential that deserve and need the extra seat more than just for convenience or pressure or what have you, representation if you like, that made the commission change this in the first place. The other change, Mr.

Speaker, is the fact that these northern areas from Middle Arm up to Burlington and this particular area, all these communities, in fact,are connected by roads that go into the Baie Verte road itself or into the Baie Verte town itself. Now these people all stay primarily with Baie Verte. They do not come into Green Bay. As a matter of fact anyone representing Green Bay has to go over or go up the Baie Verte Peninsula and then down to the district, It makes inimitable sense as opposed from a community of interest point of view, particularly if applied to transportation 7312

November 29. 1974 Tape no. l 7RR thnt th people who live on this coast deal directly into Baie Verte :ltself. Page 3 As I said the original commission report - I had two districts in this .urea, not the three that were aptly suggested. We ngree, I do not mean to sound derogatory but w-e agree primarily because the gro