Manitoba Hansard — 10 March 1980 (Sitting 13A, 31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-13a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Time: 2:30 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA Monday, 10 March, 1980 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. PRESENTING PETITI ONS MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birt le-Russell): The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. WARREN STEEN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of the Manitoba Club, praying for the passing of

An Act to Am end

An Act to In corporate The Manitoba Club. MR. SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Pe titions .•. Pr esenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees •.• MINISTERIAL STAT EMEN1S AND TABLING OF REPO R1S MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. DONALD W. CRA IK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, Pd like to table the An nual report of The Manitoba Forestry Resources for the year ended September 30, 1979. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ••• In troduction of Bills ••• INTRODUC TION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: At this time I should like to introduce to the honourable members 30 Brownies from the 212th Brownie Pack from the Constituency of Charleswood under the di rection of Ms Margaret Ellis. We also have 35 students from Grade 3 to Grade 6 standing from the Manitoba Christian School under the direction of Mr. Sowerbutts. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Cultural Affa irs. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Gove rnment House Leader. HON. GERALD W. J.

MERCIER (Osborne): There was a question of privilege raised the other day by the Member for El.mwood, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the absence of six Cabinet Ministers from Qu estion Pe riod. I point out to him that there are 10 out of the 22 members of the opposition who are not present. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I want to point out that the notification of the absence or presence of members in this House is highly unparliamentary. The Honourable Member for El mwood on a point of order. · MR. RUSSELL DO ERN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the House Leader is supposed to be an expert in the rules.

Pd like to know whether that was a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for El.mwood had no point of order. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWAR D PA WLEY (Selk ir k): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. In view of the announcement by Pr emier Davis of Ontario that he is calling for a federal-p rovincial conference in order to deal with inflation and high interest rates, my question to the First Minister is, was he consulted by Pr emier Davis, along with other provincial premiers in respect to this call? - 55 9 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Charles wood): Mr. Speaker, I've had no direct contact with Pr emier Davis concerning his suggestion, although one can take it for granted that the question of interest rates will be high on the agenda under the heading of the economy of Canada when the next First Ministers' Conf erence is held. I should say also, for the benefit of the Leader of the Oppo sition, Mr.

Speaker, that at the Western Pr emiers' Conference which will take place in Lloydminster in Ap ril, that same topic, the economy, has been appointed for discussion and I can assure him that interest rates and the effect of interest rates, which are a national responsibility, will be high on the agenda for discussion at that conf erence as well. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIAC K: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In line with the comment made by the Honourable First Minister about interest rates, may I ask whether the government has yet formulated some policy that can be announced very soon in regard to the problem of interest rates, and more importantly, the problem of mortgage renewals that are available only on the high interest rate basis? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON : Mr. Speaker, it has been said before, as and when there are any announcements in that regard to be made, the House will be the first to be notified. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns with a supplementary. MR.

CHERNIA CK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. But this time I think I should direct it, it is a supplementary, I want to direct it to the Minister for Consum er Affairs, and point out to him that apparently there is a program that has been established and endorsed by the Real Estate Board, established by others and endorsed by the Real Estate Board, called the FLIP program, which deals with a method of low payments, not low interest rates but low payments for an initial period of time.

And I would like to know, whether under The Mortgage Brokers Act, there is sufficient protection to ensure that prospective borrowers under this plan are fully protected in that they will know fully the consequences, or the possibilities and the ramificatio ns of this program relating to the probability of a balloon payment on top of a balloon payment. Is the Minister looking at The Mortgage Brokers Act to ensure that at least the private sector is going to reveal clearly all the problems that may be created by their FLIP plan? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Af fairs. HON. WARNER H.

JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, we are looking at The Mortgage Brokers Act. That particular question raised by my honourable friend is one that I'll have to look into and I'll try and provide him with an answer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for In kster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable First Minister.

In view of the fact that the new Minister of Manpower and Im migration has indicated that it's the federal government 's ambition to see that it is only the federal gover nment that comes up with a strategy for industrial development, rather than leaving it to the provinces, may I ask whether the province has received any consultation or discussion, as between its appropriate Minister and the federal gover nment Minister, as to the future industrial development of the province, or has this announcement been made unila terally? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I'll say to the Member for Inkster that rm unaware of the _ most recent of a series of pronouncements that are apparently being made by the new Minister. I will certainly take as notice his question.and made enquiries among my colleagues as to whether or not there has been any contact between the Minister in question and - 560 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 members of the Treasury Bench in Manitoba. I am not aware of such things, but I would have to make that enquiry to state that as a fact.

I can make the additional comment, however, that regard less of comments by new Ministers of the Trudeau Gover nment with respect to Industrial Development and so on, the provi nces of Canada, and I am sure I can say that without fear of contradiction, the provinces of Canada, certainly including the Pr ovince of Manitoba, will want to retain a maximum amount of control over industrial development within their own boundaries, aided and abetted as they always have been by constructive programs from the Federal authorities, such as DREE and many other programs that quickly come to mind. We are quite prepared, Mr.

Speaker, to work in close cooperation with the new administration and whatever Minister is designated for that purpose to ensure the continuing industrial expansion of Manitoba, which is a joint venture that all of us, regardless of partisan affiliation, wish to see for the benefit of our province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for In kster. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, would the First Minister get in touch with his counterpart in Ottawa, the Pr ime Minister of Canada, and advise him, or does he agree that the First Minister should be advised, that if there are to be profound changes, as between federal and provincial jurisdiction, that it would be conducive to the implementation or co-opera tion with respect to such changes that those changes be discussed as between the governments involved and not be made unilateral by a federal minister? MR. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, again I can assure the Member for Inkster and the members of the House that that would certainly by the policy of this gover nment and it would be the hope of this government, working as I have said we would to co-operatively with the Federal Gover nment under Mr. Trudeau, that we would see an end to the kind of unilateral federal bowls that were issued prior to 19 79 with respect to matters such as Economic Development, the Constitution and so on.

If we are to have to the kind of co-operative federalism in this country thaet we all strive to have, then it is imp erative that the federal government adopt a stance, if I may so, Sir, somewhat akin to the stance that was adopted by the previous gover nment of Pr ime Minister Clark, to consult with the provinces and with the regions with respect to legitimate areas of joint federal-p rovincial concern for the total benefit of the nation.

And, I can only hope, notwithstanding press statements as mentioned by the Member for Inkst er, that that will in fact be the posture of the new Trudeau government, notwithstanding the statements that new Ministers may make from time to time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster with a final supplementary. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

As a further supplementary, in view of the fact that the new minister has indicated that the major handicap in Western Economic Deve lopment has been a shortfall of over 300, 000 skilled workers, or there might be a shortfall of 300, 000 skilled workers in the next few years - and may I make it clear, Mr. Speaker, that I have nothing against immi gration - but does the analysis made by the new Minister, has it been checked with or does it coincide with analysis made by our own La bour Department that one of the problems is a shortfall of immigr ation and skilled workers? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, again my honourable friend, I think, is basing his question upon a newspaper account of a statement allegedly made by the new Minister of Im migr ation and Employment or is it Employment and Im mig ration? Emplo yment and Immigration, and I would have to take as notice the question as to whether or not the statements attributed to the new Minister bear any relation to the factors that impinge upon this problem as they are deduced by those in the Department of Labour and the Department of Manpower in Manitoba, and other departments that have responsiblity for such matters.

It might well be, and one can only speculate, it might well be that these were private musings of the new Minister or perhaps public musings of the new Minister. I reiterate, Mr. Speaker, that this gove rnment stands prepared to work co-op eratively with him and with the other members of the new Trudeau gover nment, but certainly not in a position of ser vitude or in a position whereby the di rection for all industrial ex pansion in Manitoba, or indeed in the west will be made in Ottawa, and anyone who holds that faulty view should disabuse himself of it immediately. - 561 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PA WLEY: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Education. Would the Minister of Education advise whether or not he will be using his good offices of his Ministry to resolve the dispute in Fort La Bois involving the closure of the school at El khorn? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I believe the Honourable Leader of the bpposition is referring to Fort La Bosse. In this case we are following that particular situation.

It is a matter between the School Board and the parents of a particular community. I feel that given time and good sense of the individuals involved that they will resolve this problem. MR. PA WLEY: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister was whether he was going to be involved in resolving the dispute? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I have met with a delegation from the community involved. I anticipate meeting with the School Board from that particular area later in the week. MR. PA WLEY: Mr.

Speaker, further to the Minister, in meeting with a delegation and further meeting with the School Board, does the Minister have any position vis-a-vis the closure of the school in Elkhorn to present to the delegation and to the School Board? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, the position of the Minister in this particular instance is not the matter of concern, it is a decisio n that has been made by a School Division, certainly within its rights to make that particular decision.

The fact that a number of people in the community take issue with that particular decision is the matter of concern at this time and I feel they will be meeting together and discussing this and will come to some reasonable solution to the problem. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAM USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the appropriate Minister, and I am not just sure who it is, as to the disposition of certain real estate held by the Crown in the Community of East Selkirk which was off ered for sale some two or three months ago?

I wonder if the appropriate Minister would be able to answer that question. Yes, my question is simply whether the property had been sold or not? There is only one in question. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Well, per haps, Mr. Speaker, the Ministers could take that as notice and answer it at some subsequent date.

I would like to ask the Minister of Pu blic Works whether or not he is considering the making of provisions for the ladies of this Chamber, in terms of washroom facilities, so that it would enhance the possibility of more of our lady friends entering this Chamber in the future. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Gover nment Services. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I' m prepared to take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY (Fo rt Rouge): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, on another question.

My question is addressed to the Honourable Minister of Health. In view of the fact that almost $300,000 in grants from Kellog g' s Foundation for demonstration projects in the health - 562 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 field, that is almost $300,000, will be lost to the province of Manitoba unless a letter of interest is received from the Minister by 4:00 o'clock this afternoon, will the Minister assure the House that he will forward such a letter of interest, in view of the fact that this would commit the province in principle only and would not involve any provincial expenditure at this stage? MR . SPE AK ER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HO N. L. R. (Bud) SH ERMAN (F ort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, we have been evaluating the proposal, evaluating the application from MH O and evaluating the role of the Kellogg Foundation and the expected or anticipated role of the province in this affair. We've had a nu mber of meetings, as recently as Friday or Thursday evening, with interested representatives of the communities and regions involved and an answer will be forthcoming from the government very shortly. But I repeat what I said the other day to the Hono urable Member for Fort Rouge, that we're not interested in reinventing the wheel.

We have been evaluating the project to determine if in fact it is new and useful. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR S. WESTBURY: The question was addressed to the fact that the answer has to come by 4:00 o'clock this afternoon, Mr. Speaker. My next question is to the First Minister. When will the Cabinet be making an announcement on the appointment of a Deputy Mi nister of Health? MR. SPEAKE R: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supplementary. MRS. WESTBU RY : No, rm sorry; I thought it was Orders of the Day, Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEA K ER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR . DOER N: Mr. Speaker, rd like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture and ask hi m whether he intends to proceed with the elimination of the Milk Control Board. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HO N. JAM ES E. DOWNEY (A rthur): Mr. Speaker, as I've indicated before, the issue of milk pricing in this province is under review and, if any changes are to be made, the announcement would be made here in the House. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR . DOE RN : Mr.

Speaker, rd like to direct a supplementary question to the Mi nister of Consumer Affairs and ask him whether he intends to fight for the retention of the Milk Control Board of Manitoba, if it's in jeopardy? MR . SPE AK ER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR . JORGEN SON: No, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a final supplementary. MR . DOE RN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd ask the Mi nister of Consumer Affairs whether he can give us any evidence that he has fought for any consumer rights or any protection of the consumer in Manitoba, because we are not aware of any such action on this side. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR . JORGE NSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. - 563 -

Monday, March 10, 198 0 MR. JAY COWAN (Churchill): Thank you, Mr . Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Mines and Energy. On February 28 last, I asked the First Minister, in the absence of the Minister of Mines and Energy if he could outline any procedures that are currently in place to safeguard the public health and safety throughout the uranium exploration and mining process.

It appears as if the Minister has given some attention to the matter according to press reports and I would ask the Minister now if he can, before this House, outline any specific procedures that have been put in place to ensure that the public safety and health will be safeguarded throughout the entire uranium mining exploration and processing. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe the press report dealt with the member's question.

I think it was wit h regard to the question as to whether, in light of the moves in British Columbia, there were parallel moves going to made in Manitoba and the answer was no, that Manitoba was pursuing a course of action that exploration would be encouraged rather than otherwise. With regard to the health and safety aspect of it, there has been no evidence that any concern ought to be raised at this point in time with regard to that matter. The exploration that has gone on is primarily geophysical exploration, Mr. Speaker, some indication of drilling exploration. MR . COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well this geophysical exploration should or one would anticipate that it would lead to further exploration and perhaps uranium mining, if there is uranium of mineable quantities in the area. rd ask the Minister if they have given any attention to the matter of safeguarding the public safety and health when and if that mining should begin, as it has been proven that there are some very detrimental impacts to public safety and health from uranium mi ning?

Have they given any attention to the future in this manner so as to ensure that we are not faced with a tragedy or catastrophy because of their inability to deal with the future? MR. CRAIK : Well, Mr . Speaker, I think the member is trying to cross the bridge and hasn't found the river yet. Certainly there's a body of experience and a wealth of knowlege already available on that topic of which the department is already well aware, and those that are involved are already well aware, in the industry and in the government as well.

If we come to the position where there is a viable mine indicated certainly all due attention will be given to the question. MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Churchill with a final supplementary. MR . COWA N: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, what I'm trying to do is save the rivers and the streams and the lakes so that they will be crossable in the future for our children and our children's children wherever they should choose to cross such bodies of water.

Is the Minister prepared to co mmit his government to holding public inquiries and meetings in areas where uranium exploration and/or mining is ongoing or anticipated so that interested residents can make their views known, as well as provide concrete suggestions to the government and to the mining companies in this regard? Is he prepared to commit himself to have that sort of open ongoing and quite inclusive discussions before approving, or before encouraging further exploration in uranium mining in this province? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, the answer to the previous question essentially applies to the latter question. If, as, and when, there's any indication of the potential of a mine in Manitoba certainly those things will all be considered, bu t, Mr . Speaker, at the present time, for the member's information and I suspect he is probably aware of it, the exploration that is going on is in the very uppermost corner on the north west side against the 60 th parallel of the Northwest Territories and against the Saskatchewan border in a square of land right in the corner.

There is not any indication of any general concern from the residents in that area. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honou rable Member for Brandon East. MR . LEO NARD S. EVA NS: Mr. Speaker, rd like to address a question to the Minister of Co-Operative Development, and ask the Minister whether he can confirm that the - 56 4 -

Monday, March 10, 19 80 accounting firm of Thorne Riddell and the legal firm of Aikins and MacAulay were hired by the Min ister to review the operations of McKenzie Seeds last September and October? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sports. HON. ROBE RT (Bob) BANMA N (La Ve rendrye): Mr. Speaker, we've made public statements with regard to that; it's been no secret. The government has hired different people to look at the operations at that particular plant, to try and bring up suggestions of how that plant can be strengthened and how that operation can remain viable in Brandon. MR .

EVA NS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Hono urable Minister would be prepared to table a copy of that report in the Legislature. MR . BANMA N: Mr. Speaker, as the Member for Brandon East would appreciate, it's an in-depth study into that particular company. At the time when I talked to several people in the media with regard to that report, I indicated that it was an in-House document and I know the Member for Brandon East wouldn't want us to divulge all kinds of information so that this company would be subject to all kinds of outside pressures from different people. MR . EVA NS: Yes, thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I wonder if the Honourable Minister could advise whether he has shown a copy of that report, or whether his staff has given a copy of that report to anyone outside of the government, anyone outside of his department or anyone outside of the company. MR . BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, if the Chairman of the Board is considered outside of government; we're working closely with the board to try and strengthen that operation and I believe the Chairman of the Board did receive a copy. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR . PETER FOX: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

Last week I asked a question of the Honourable Minister of Labour in respect to an explosion and subsequent conviction at Dominion Tanners. I wonder if he has the answer today. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KE N MacMASTER (Thompson): No, I haven't, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for St. Vit al. MR . D. JAMES WA LDING: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs, and refers to the Commonwealth Day celebrations today. I would like to ask the Minister if she could inform the House as to the involvement of her office with the ceremonies? MR .

SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HO N. NORM A L. PRICE (Assiniboia): I wasn't involved in it, Mr. Speaker. MR . WALDING: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, and rm referring here to the program for this morning. I would like to ask the Min ister whether it was a coincidence that immediately following the First Minister's re marks, the choir sang, "H ow Great Thou Art". MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR . USKIW: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Co-Operative Development whether he knows the total cost of the studies on McKenzie Seeds. MR .

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Co-Op Development. MR . BA NMAN: No, not at the present time, yet, Mr. Speaker. - 565 -

Monday, March 10, 19 80 MR . USKIW: Yes, could the Minister confirm, either today or on a subsequent day, whether it's in the order of $20 0,000.00? MR . BANMAN: No, Mr. Speaker, I can't confirm that because I haven't seen anything along that line. MR . SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Member for Lac du Bonnet with a final supplementary. MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister whether or not he has made any part of that report or any information from those studies available to any of those companies who submitted offers for the purchase of McKenzie Seeds. MR . BA NMAN: I don't believe so, Mr.

Speaker, but I can check and get back to the member. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR . GREE N: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Economic Development has now come back in the House and I would like to determine from him whether he has had any discussions with, or consultations with, the Minister of Economic Development and Immigration in Ottawa with reference to a press conference that the Minister had, apparently, today or yesterday. --{Interjection)-- Yes, Em ployment and Economic Development. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honou rable Minister of Economic Development. HO N. J.

FRA NK JOH NSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, that is correct. The Minister, Mr. Axw orthy, who is shown here, is Employment and Im migration. No, Mr. Speaker, I have had no conversations with him at all regarding this statement. As a matter of fact, it's a little concerning that they would make the statement without discussion with the province of Manitoba, and I will hopefully be in contact with the federal government Minister in charge of Industry and Commerce to find out if this is correct. MR . GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Highways.

Is it the policy of the Hig hways Branch to require anybody who has ever had a heart condition to, on a yearly basis, submit a letter from the doctor in order to qualify for driving privileges? MR . SPEA KE R: The Hono urable Minister of High ways and Transportation. HO N. DO N ORCHARD (P embina): Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take that question as notice. It falls under the jurisdiction of the Motor Ve hicle Branch. MR . GREEN: I hope I have the proper Minister. Mr.

Speaker, the second question, with respect to this matter, is that if such an examination is required - and I have been informed by one person that he has been required to give it - in view of the fact that it is a compulsory examination, is it fair that such an examination is not paid for through the Manitoba Health Services Insurance plan, that a person getting such an examination would have to pay for it personally? MR . ORCH AR D: Mr. Speaker, I take that question as notice, likewise. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR . HA R VEY BO STROM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System, and it is with respect to the service which the Manitoba Telephone Syste m provides to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, by way of providing facilities for the CBC to put in their equipment to provide television service to northern communities, and my question is: Has the Manitoba Telephone Syste m changed their arrangement wh ereby they allow the CBC to utilize the services that are in the communities - 56 6 -

Monday, March 10, 198 0 at the present time, that is the microwave service, and whereby they have increased the price to CBC to such an extent that it has caused an undue delay in the provision of CBC services to some northern centres? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. MR . EN NS: Mr. Speaker, I had the privilege of attending a Manitoba Telephone System's board meeting today, and we had occasion to talk about provision of various services to northern Manitoba.

No indication was made to me that any change in policy has occurred in the last several years with respect to rate setting by MTS. MR . BOSTR OM : Mr. Speaker, this concern has been raised with me and I'm not sure whether the information is correct or not. I would ask the Minister if he would take the question as notice and check with the Manitoba Telephone System to ensure that the MTS is in no way providing an impediment to the service to these northern centres. Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister to seek assurance from the Manitoba Telephone System that they are not changing their rates. MR .

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR . DOER N: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Attorne y-General. A week or ten days ago I asked hi m whether he would be ordering a new or second inquest or inquiry into a fatality caused by gas explosion. I wonder whether he can now report to the House on that matter? MR . SPEA KE R: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR . ME RCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have checked that matter with my department. That matter is still under review with counsel for the Ack land family. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR . COWAN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Mines and Energy. Can the Minister confirm that that area he previously described in the question period, where active exploration is ongoing, is also areas of numerous trapping, hunting and fishing activities of native northern ers? MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . CRAI K: I expect that is quite possible, Mr. Speaker. MR. COW AN: In that case, has the Minister or is the Minister prepared to inform these individuals of the uranium exploration that is ongoing and that there is a potential for mining in the area?

And has the Minister solicited or is he prepared to solicit any reaction to such activities, either from ind ividuals or groups representing individuals who may be affected by this sort of activity in their native land? MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, there is absolutely no evidence of how a hazard could be created and that question of course has been addressed well back in time. There is no evidence when a core is taken even that there is any threat. The core is taken and reported. So, Mr.

Speaker, it is not a mine we are talking about, as I said it is primarily geophysical work and also some drill-core work, but in terms of any surface activity that takes place in the area in addition to that there, of course, is no evidence whatsoever that there could in any way possibly be any kind of a hazard. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono urable Member for Churchill with a final supplementary. MR .

COWAN: Yes, a final supplementary to the Minister then, can the Mi nister confirm that when widespread exploration activity takes place in any specific area in Northern Manitoba that the wildlife habitat is disrupted and that there are substantial changes, most of them deleterious changes, in impacts on the livelihood of people who depend - 567 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 upon that wildlife and depend upon that area for their hunting, trapping and fishing. MR . SPEA KE R: Order, order please. I somehow sense that we are getting into a debate here rather than a period seeking information which is what the question period is all about. The Honourabl e Minister of Mines. MR . CRAIK : Mr.

Speaker, I want to make it clear that the type of activity that takes place with regard to exploration, whether it is uranium or otherwise, some other mineral, the activities are identical and the activities that take place in any area of Northern Manitoba that have been going on for many decades are the activities that are taking place today and are likely to continue for some time. If there is a disruption to the area, Mr. Speaker, which I fully suspect there is, there is never a human activity takes place anywhere but what there is some disruption and adjustment of some other part of the environment.

But it is no different than any other type of activity that takes place when mines are being pursued. MR . SPEAKE R: The Ho nourable Member for The Pas. MR . RO N McB RYDE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am not sure which Minister to address this question, so I will put it out generally and see if any of the Ministers have a response to it. I am wondering, Mr.

Speaker, if the Provincial Government has had any involvement with an organ ization called The Institute of Cultural Affairs, which has been doing some work in the Vog ar community in the Interlake Area of Manitoba, whether the Provincial Government has any financial or what is the nature of the Provincial Government's relationship with that private organization? MR . SPEA KE R: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR . JO HN STON: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure about ot her deparments, but I would inform the member that the Department of Economic Development has worked with this group in Vogar.

There is no financial involvement to my knowledge, except that there has been some assistance, and the Manitoba Ho using and Renewal Corporation has also given some assistance as far as advice is concerned, but not any financial assistance that I know of. I'll take it as notice regarding the financial part of it. MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder then if the Minister could perhaps in another form give me some more detail in terms of what the involvement or what the relationship is. Mr.

Speaker, a similar question in regard to an organization called The Metis Confederacy, what is the nature of the province's relation with that organization and is there any financial assistance in any form to that organization? MR. SPEAK ER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR . McBRYD E: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to then address a further question to the Minister of Transportation.

I wonder if the Minister of Transportation could give me any answer to the question I asked over a week ago in regard to The Pas Ha ndi-Van Service, whether he is able to answer my question yet on that matter? MR . SPEAKE R: The Hono urable Minister of Transportation. MR . ORCH ARD: Mr. Speaker, that matter has been perused by my department and I am waiting on an answer as to the potential of provincial funding for The Pas Handi-Va.n. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR . EVA NS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Economic Development respecting the announcement he made a week or so ago of $300,000 grant to K-Cycle in Winnipeg. Could the Hono ur able Minister advise whether the funding of this particular project was for furthering the research of the engine involved or was there some additional motive or objectives in this particular grant? - 568 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR . JO HN STON: As I explained previously in the House, Mr. Speaker, it will assist the company for further research. The research was being carried on at the University of Manitoba, the facilities there became impossible for them to work with be cause they needed test stands of a larger nature.

It also will be used to test engines of other types that are in the province; it will also be used to test the different fuels that could be developed within the province in engines; it will be a facility that will be a research facility, not only for K-Cycle, but be a benefit to the whole province. MR . EVA NS: Well, I thank the Hono urable Minister for that information, Mr. Speaker.

He leaves one with the impression that this is an energy research program rather than one concerned with Economic Development, so I would ask the Honourable Minister whether this wouldn't have been a grant more properly made by the Minister of Energy rather than by the Minister of Economic Development. And specifically, could he advise whether there has been any feasibility studies done on the manufacturing possiblities of such an engine in the Province of Manitoba? MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR . JOHNST ON: Mr. Speaker, it is rightly in the Department of Economic Development.

We are work ing with K-Cycle to hopefully have the engine manufactured in the Province of Manitoba, when and if it is viable to do so. As far as energy is concerned, I would say that the K-Cycle engine generally is an engine that would save energy. As far as the other benefits are concerned, I think it is very obvious that we should be working to have this industry developed in the Province of Manitoba. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East with a final supplementary. MR .

EVA NS: Can the Honourable Minister advise whether there is a written agreement between the government and K-Cycle company, or however that particular group is named or designated, whether there is a specific agreement whereby that company must manufacture this engine in the Province of Manitoba, for the assistance given by the Province of Manitoba. MR . JO HNST O N: Mr. Speaker, the written agreement is not signed between the two parties as yet. The money has been awarded to them; it wi ll be turned over when the agreement is signed. The agreement is that the research that I mentioned will be carried on.

We will have some liens against the equipment that is purchased to prevent the Province of Manitoba's funding. And secondly, Mr. Speaker, I think I mentioned before that Manitoba doesn't have an iron curtain around it and there is nothing in the agreement that would force anybody to manufacture in Manitoba, but this company has been probably one of the most loyal companies in the Province of Manitoba as far as wanting to remain here. MR . SPEA KE R: The Honourable Member for Brandon East with a final supplementary. MR . EVA NS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would gather then, from the Minister's re marks, that there is or will be no binding clause in the agreement that K- Cycle must manufacture this engine in the Province of Manitoba for the assistance of $300,000. 00. There is nothing that would be iron-clad in this agreement, so that therefore the $300,000 will be perhaps for pure or applied energy research rather than for economic development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the member is completely mixed up. The research, as far as the development of the engine is concerned, is carrying on in the Province of Manitoba.

The engine itself, as I've mentioned, is one that is related to energy saving. The $300,000 was spent by the province on this particular building for this particular assistance to have this equipment for the benefit of all Manitobans to use. - 569 -

Monday, March 10, 19 80 ORD ERS OF TH E DA Y ORDE R FOR RETURN No. 2: On Motion of Mrs. Westbury, Order for Return. TH AT an Order of the House do issue for a return of the following information regarding the contents of the former Rural Water Services warehouse, and regarding those contents not required by other departments: 1. What was the inventory value of the remaining contents? 2. How were these goods disposed of; if by tender were they offered publicly for tender? 3. How many tenders were submitted, by whom and for what amounts? 4. Was the highest tender accepted? 5.

If the eventual purchaser was Triple M Sales, what is the fami lial relationship between the registered officers of Triple M Sales, that is John Donald Masniuk, president and director; Gary Wayne Masniuk, vice-president; and Estelle Carmel Masniuk, director and secretary; and Peter Masniuk, Conservative Member of Parliament for Portage Constituency from 1972 to 1979 ; and his son Raymond Masniuk, who sought the Conservative nomination in Selkirk-Interlake in the federal election of 19 80? MR. SPEA KE R: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. MR. EN NS: Mr.

Speaker, I have no difficulty in accepting this Order for Return. I should indicate to you, Mr. Speaker, as the member is fully aware, the disposal of Crown assets is always done by tender, and whether or not the question of the familial relationship of a particular firm is involved is nQt a subject matter that the department is concerned with. How ever, we will attempt to answer tHe questions asked. MR. SPEA KE R: Order please. The Honourable Opposition House Leader on a point of order. MR. PAW LEY: Mr. Speaker, it's my understanding that if the order is accepted, then it is accepted without debate.

If the member is going to debate the issue in accepting the order, then it should be put over for debate at a subsequent time. MR. SPEAK ER: ls it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? MO TION presented and carried. MR. PA WL EY: I would like a ruling on my point of order. MR. SPEAK ER: Order, please. I don't believe the Honourable Leader of the Opposition had a point of order. The Honourable Member for Kildonan on a point of order. MR . FOX: Would you kindly indicate what rule indicates that the Honourable House Leader, my leader, didn't have a point of order.

I do believe it indicates that we do not debate orders for return which are accepted, and yet that's what the Government Services Minister was doing, and that was the point of order. MR. SPEAKE R: Order please. It was my understanding that the Minister of Government Services was looking at the order for return and indicating to the House that the government was willing to accept it. The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR . FOX: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I would ask you in the future, and even at the present time, to indicate how many gratuitous remarks we're supposed to accept in the acceptance of an order for return, because if this is going to occur, the opposition should have it's day in court too and should be able to indicate their gratuitous remarks as well. MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. - 570 -

Monday, March 10, 198 0 MR . DOE RN: Mr. Speaker, I challenge your ruling. MR . SPEAK ER: The honourable member has challenged the ruling of the Chair. Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? (Agreed) The Hono urable Government House Leader. MR. ME R CIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Economic Development, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a Com mittee to consider of the Supply to be Granted to Her Majesty.

MO TIO N presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Hono urable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Manpower; and the Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of the Attorne y-General. CONCURRE NT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUP PLY - ATT ORN E Y-GENERAL MR. CH AIRM AN , Mr. Morris McGregor (V irden): I call the committee to order. We are on Resolution 16, Item 2.(b)( l) . The Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBER T G. WILSON : Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You left off the other day with the Member for Winnipeg Centre, and I am pleased to take up almost where he left off, but at the same time, wanting to talk about something that I thought about, which was the financial aspect of the Minister's budget especially dealing with criminal prosecutions and crime. Because the area that I represent, Wolseley, and of course articles that appeared in the paper talk about the number of convenience stores and stores that are being robbed, the mother and poppa-type store, the number of indecent assaults and rapes.

And the thought comes to mind, if you read the paper, the number of murders and assaults that take place on the reservations, and the number of assaults that take place certainly in my area and the number of hotels in the city dealing with what I call closing-time assaults, it seems there's an awful lot of people getting hurt. And when you demand police protection, they always cry the blues about their budget.

I think maybe the time is, to ask the questions about the priority, because it seems that anything that involves money, the governments will stop at no end to proceed to get involved with anything that involves money. And this was prompted, in a way, because of what I consider the great push by law enforcement officers towards gambling and massage parlour surveillance, welfare fraud appeals, soft drugs, wiretaps, and especially the Hong Kong-type story and the CFI expense.

And you don't have to take my word for it, because I was in the emergency hospital on Saturday night, and I think if any one member of this committee was to go down to the Health Sciences Centre or to the Misericordia Hospital, they could see the results of crime in the streets. And I would hope the Minister's department, in light of the shortfall of money, would consider having an evaluation done as to where we are going to spend the dollars.

Are they going be to protect people, or are they going to be to protect government from losses of a few dollars in some particular areas, whether it's the white collar fraud involving the McGay College, or whether it's variable metal forms that I was involved in, or whether it's some income tax issue or whatever. It just seems to be an awful lot of money goes towards anything that involves the government having their feathers ruffled and the loss of some money. There seems to be a bottomless pit of money to be spent in that area.

And I wanted to also take this opportunity to put on the record a couple of things, because the Member for Wellington has some important matters to bring up, and I wanted to fully endorse, after a meeting that I had when they had the dedication of the church service. A gentleman came up to me and handed me a pamphlet for that church service and said, I want to talk to you after. I'd never seen the man before. So after the church service I went up to talk to him, and he identified himself as a former Alderman Spence and apparently, he said, twenty years ago the same thing happened to me as - 571 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 to you, and he proceeded to enlighten me with his story, which I won't give you the details of today. But it just seemed that anyone who speaks out against the establishment, certainly there doesn't seem to be any mechanism in government to be able to protect that person. He ends up as a force of one, if I can use a movie that's coming to one of the Famous Players downtown. The Minister, in earlier debate, had alluded he didn't intend at any time to comment or say anything about this member here.

The RCMP don't seem to have anything to investigate, or sort of a self-investigation mechanism, and I just wonder at some point in time, like Mr. Spence, who is going to investigate my earlier charges of criminal activities, by Crown lawyers and certain members of the RCMP, with regard to perjury and defamation, both of which I quoted sections of the Criminal Code. So, what I am saying is, there are certain instances where the laws under the Criminal Code do not seem to have anywhere that a person can go, whether it be any citizen of this province.

There's been a lot of criticism about the Manitoba Police Commission, people wanting to bring concerns about police brutality, and we are making strides. And the Minister doesn't have to comment, but I just say that I hope he will take under advisement that the people there are being concerned because of the mass media coverage. And I think I fully support, after a great deal of thought, the ban on publication of names because, like radiation poisoning, like asbestos fibres, like lead poisoning, like certain toxic chemical poisonings, the damage to innocent people is something you can't measure.

How does it contribute to their early death? How does it contribute to their mental anguish, or whatever? When people lose their honour, reputation, they suffer financial harrassment, their credit ratings are ruined, and worst of all the disgrace to that particular innocent person's family. So I think the ban on publication has got to be enacted by this government, unless we're prepared to allow the media - because the laws controlling the media are extremely regressive, because what happens is the media won't print anything because they're paranoid about contempt.

And the media really are becoming messenger boys for the Crown lawyers. I believe the Minister himself was quoted on one page in Ha nsard of saying, he didn't know of any cases. I believe it's on Page 445.

He says, "fm certainly not aware of any instance where people employed in the Criminal Prosecutions Departments leak evidence to the press in advance of certain court proceedings." I believe even the Member for Wellington, and other lawyers I have talked to, say it is a common practice amongst Crown lawyers in jury cases to feed tenuous, exaggerated evidence to the media so that it will appear in the newspaper, whether it's true or false, knowing full well that the jury members who are appointed may very well subscribe to ei ther one of the newspapers.

So I say that the laws controlling the media have got to be examined so that the media can print both sides of the story, or - if I can use a term - they can allude to the possibility that an error may have been made. I just wanted to put those things on the record, because I think that we've got to (

a) priorize the budget ; (

b) we have to fight crimes that are hurting people versus the money crimes that involve the white collar section, and both are probably important. We've got to certainly look at, a serious look, because of the new Telestar, and goodness knows, we may have a special channel dealing with people accused today coming in on our Cablevision, but we should look at a ban on publication with the rider that if we don't have the ban on publication, we've got to free up the media to give them more opportunity to not be paranoiac about a word called contempt.

So, with those few remarks, rn turn it over to the Member for Wellington. MR. CHAIRM AN : The Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORR IN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, before I get to the substance of my remarks, I would like to ask the At torney-General whether or not he will be able to provide to us, before we get to the Manitoba Police Commission and the Provincial Judges Court - and that I note, Mr.

Chairman, should be coming before committee rather soon - the report of the Manitoba Police Commission emanating from the Frampton inquiry and the recently-provided report by a co mmittee of the Provincial Judges' Association respecting the role of the Chief Judge of the province. I ask that, Mr. Chairman, through you, because it is obvious that there will be some discussion relative to both reports. - 572 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 We on this side, I think, are prepared to pursue the matter on the basis of the news reports that have been published with respect to both those matters, but would prefer, if possible, to have the actual reports and publications before us, in order that we not be inaccurate with respect to any points. As I said, that's a yes or a no, perhaps, and then I'll go on. MR. CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Minister. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, with respect to the Frampton inquiry report, that matter is still before the courts, as I understand it, and only those portions of the report that could not affect a fair trial of the accused in that case were reported. And because the matter is still before the courts, there would be no intention on my part to release the full report. With respect to the Provincial Judges' Association report, there was a full release that was issued by myself in early September with respect to all of the recommendations contained in that report that were of substance. MR.

CORRIN: I don't want to jump too far ahead or confuse anyone, Mr. Chairman, but as I said during my comments, I was referring to the report of the committee of the Provincial Judges' Association that I believe was just presented to the Attor ney-General this last week, and dealt with the role of the Chief Judge of the province. It was a very specific term of reference that the committee addressed itself to. It was in Saturday's newspapers, at least in the Saturday's Tribune. MR. MER CIER: Well, we can deal with that later when the subject comes up, Mr. Chairman.

It would not be my intention to make it public without the consent of the Provincial Judges' Association. It was a private request to the judges to consider any revisions of The Provincial Judges Act that they would like to submit, and was, I thought, and I think they thought, done on a private dispute. And, in any event, the Act will be, no doubt, coming before the Legislature during this session. MR. CORRIN: I thank the Minister for his observations, Mr.

Chairman, and note that I presumed that either the Minister or a member of his staff, or one of the members of the Provincial Judges' Association, had released the report to the Winnipeg Tribune last week. I didn't know that this was a report of such a confidential nature that it shouldn't have been made public as it was. Mr. Chairman, what I wanted to discuss initially today were the remarks made at the closing on Friday respecting wiretaps. We had been discussing, as you will recall, the subject of wiretaps, and in the context of the possible bugging of the legislative caucus room of the Conservative Party.

The Minister indicated that he had checked the matter and that he could assure members of the committee that no such surveillance took place in the course of investigations over the summer holiday period. It's not my intention, Mr. Chairman, to further scrutinize the Minister's comment. I presume that his interrogations, his enquiries, were sufficient, and that he's apprised us of all the relevant facts. But, Mr. Chairman, in dealing with the observations of the Deputy Minister and the Minister made last Friday, I had cause to do some research over the weekend into the law in Canada pertaining to wiretaps.

And I suppose I should say from the outset that I discovered that the Minister was incorrect, as I was, with respect to some aspects of the law in that regard. When he said that the Criminal Code governed the question, that is not indeed the case, and as it was reported in the Winnipeg Free Press. The truth is as I've now found out, that the relevant legislation is a federal law called The Protection of Privacy Act. This Act was revised and, as it now exists, was passed by the House of Commons in 1977 , not 1974 or 1975 . What concerns me, Mr.

Chairman, and the reason I think that this committee whilst dealing with criminal prosecutions should continue to investigate and examine this matter, is the fact that there was an error made by the - I think it was the Deputy Minister, not the Minister - when he suggested to the Minister that all persons whose telephones are tapped must be notified within 90 days after re movable of the tap. Well, that's not so. That's an inaccurate representation, although it is partially correct, Mr. Chairman.

We've discovered that there is provision in the law for the police, at the outset of a bugging operation, to request of the courts a three-year moratorium on the requirement to - 573 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 notify. There was some discussion and debate about that, whether or not it had to be done wit hin 90 days. Well, there is provision, if the police wi sh to avail themselves of it , and if the court grants the application for a three-year moratoriu m on this requirement of publication. The im portant thing, I think, is that the Act only pertains to the provision required in the Act - in The Protection of Privacy Act - only pertains to the subject of the bugging warrant, and that's quite clear.

It doesn't relate, for instance, to other persons whose telephones are tapped, or bugged, during the course of an investigation against the person suspected of a crim inal offence.

So, for instance, if - and rm saying this, of course, because it is purely hypothetical, so I use the term "if" - if in the course of an investigation of a person in this building, a person who worked in this building, the police were to have investigated, we re to, rather, have tapped the telephones in various office facilities, they wo uld not be required under current law to notify the persons who owned those telephones, or who used those telephones regularly.

And to reinforce this, I did some research and found out that this had happened a few years back, and had been the subject of some debate in this House, when the judges' telephones at the Public Safety Building we re tapped on a f airly universal basis, in order to gather information wi th respect to the investigation of former Judge Anthony Pilutik. In that case, the debates of Hansard wi ll indicate that at least two other provincial judges' telephones were bugged. I think they were on a trunk or party line, but nevertheless, their telephone conversations we re monito red for a period in excess of a month.

And I think at that time the judges stated that they were appalled at the possibility that this could happen in a free, democratic country wi thout any notification. I think they were appalled in the first place that innocent people's telephones could be bugged when there was no wa rrant pertaining, but they recognized that was the law. But they were appalled that there would be no provision to ensure that they would be informed that their conversations had been monitored, over a period such as that. So the concern, Mr.

Chairman, that we have on this side, I think, is wi th respect to those who are not suspected of crim inal act ivity , but whose lawf ul commu nicat ions are nevertheless mon itored and subjected to police scrutiny. Also, I should indicate that wi th respect to wiretap applications in general, because there was some discussion about the requirement of going before a judge, not all wi retap applications need be authorized by a court in Canada.

Apparently - and this really, I think, is some thing that I would like the Minister to address himself to - apparently under The Offi cial Se crets Act, the Solicit or-General of Canada can, on the basis of his own, and I stress, unreviewa ble

interpretations, at any time instruct the RCM P to wiretap and bug. And that form of authorization can take place for as long as the Minister wishes. And apparently - I did find a report on this - the Solici tor-Gen eral, in 1976 , authorized 51 7 electronic surveillances under The Official Secrets Act in Canada, in all the provinces of this country. So 51 7 people had their telephone conversations intercepted in 1976 alone, on the basis ... --(Interjection)--this is besides criminal, yes, to the Member for Wolseley through you, Mr. Chairman.

This is over and beyond electronic surveillance that takes place through the official provisions of The Protecti on of Privacy Act. These are special warrants that are issued by a politi cian, not by a judge, just by a politician. And when you consider, Mr. Chairman, that that politicia n is, notwit hstanding how honourable he or she might be, a partisan player, you can imagine the havoc that that could create when one considers, for instance, Watergate in Canada. It oc curred to me while I was checking the law that in Canada, Watergate is legal. I mean you don't have to worry.

In Canada, Richard Nixon would have been home-free, if he was the Solici tor-General, or if he would have instructed his Solici tor-General to issue the orders under The Offi cial Secrets Act. He could have done everything he did, which he. ultimately had to give up his office, legally in Canada, and that's the state of our rights. He could have bugged the Democratic National Headquarters because he thought, and it was unreviewable, that there was espionage activit y or possibly treasonous activity taking place in the building.

So, Watergate in Canada is perfectly legal, and it's unreviewable activity on the part of politicians. So, we 'd ask the Minister what he thinks of that? Does he think that the law needs to be am ended in order to make provision for application to the courts, or some body, where justi fication could be tabled? And also, does he believe that all persons who are the subject of police surveillance should be informed over and beyond those whose names appear on warrants? - 574 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 Does he believe that if some innocent, unsuspecting, unsuspected person should have a telephone conversation wit h someone who is the subject of police scrutiny, that that person should be informed of the fact that their conversations were, for a time, intercepted by the police ?

I think, dealing wi th our own situation as legislators here, and the privile ges and privacy we thought we enjoyed - although the Minister tells me that we did and that there was no problem there - but given the fact that even provincial judges have been subject to this sort of int erception, does he not think that, in fairness, the laws should be revised to provide that notice be made to all such persons whose calls are intercepted? MR . CHAI RMAN: The Me mber for Inkster. MR. GRE EN: Mr. Chairman, I think that there have been some very legitimate concerns expressed.

I'm not certain that I would agree wit h the Honourable Member for Wellington, who says that Watergate in Canada is legal. Wiretapping, done in certain means, is legal. I don't know whether that would make it legal to interfere wi th the administration of judges, to bribe people not to give evidence or to give certain evidence, or to advise the Attorney-General, or through the Attorney-General, advise a break-in of a headquarters. One could get a search warrant if one expects the offences to take place. But rm not trying to minimize some of the problems raised.

But I do think that it's not a fact that Watergate, wit h its implicatio ns of what the President did, would be legal if an Attorn ey-General did the same things in the Province of Manitoba - or the Solicitor-Gene ral - that he could not say that he's going to bribe wit nesses, to pay wit nesses to take the rap and not to subvert evidence that was going before a court, and things of that nature. It is, Mr. Chairman, of some int erest to - it should be to all mem bers - that because

an Act is headed "The Protection of Privacy Act", does not mean that it protects privacy; in fact , means that it facilitates the invasion of privacy. And I am glad that is some thing that can be observed. That

an Act that says "freedo m of informa tion", does not make information free. As a matter of fact , it could protect the secrecy of information; that one has to look at what the Act said and see whether information is facilitated, or whether priv acy is facilitated, by what is stated in the Act. And I think that there is certainly some problem associated wi th

an act which says that it is for the protection of the invasion of privacy , when it really provides the legal way for invading privacy.

Whereas, if it wasn't there, one might be able to argue about whether that way should be available or not, it is now stamped and made legal, and perhaps has to be made illegal. So I think that the concerns, and particularly the concern that was outlined to me by the Member for Burrows, that apparently the tapping is of a mem ber, not of a telephone, and therefore, if that mem ber - I don't know if rm stepping in. If the Member for Burrows was going to speak on this question, I'll defer, because he was the one who made the point to me and I think it's a very interesting point. I do, Mr.

Chairman, want to get back to the publication in the media of people who are accused, because wit h all of its problems, I want to try to assess wit h me mbers of the comm ittee whether the remedy is not far worse than the disease. How does one prevent the publicati on of the fact that a person is accused? How does one prevent the fact of the publication that a trial is taking place? The first thing you would have to do is have to go to secret trials, because if you are going to permit somebody to know that something is taking place, and it's prohibited from publishing it in the newspapers, I guarantee you, Mr.

Chairman, I guarantee you, not through any conduct on my part but from what I have seen historically, that there wi ll be an underground newspaper, and that underground newspaper will publish the names of people who have been accused of offences. And it wi ll be a very expensive newspaper and a very irresponsible newspaper.

Now I have had, from time to time, and all of us have had disagree ments as to whet her some thing has been properly stated in the news paper, but certainly I believe that what is stated now, because it is open to scrutiny and because people know what happened and what they see published and that somebody could say that it's wild, that the ne wspapers have to be more, rather than less, responsible. Now, that's not perfect, but nothing about our society is perfect. What is the alternative ? Secret trials? If there we re secret trials, Dreyfus would never have been vindicated.

If there were secret trials, we would have far more terrible things happening to accused than that their name s are published in the newsp apers. - 575 -

Monday, March 10, 19 80 Now I'm not putting this forward, Mr. Chairman, as a fact that it's necessary or desirable that an accused person who is not convicted of anything should receive a trial by new spaper before it takes place, and subsequently becomes acquitted and the mark does not we ar off. That's one of the difficulties of a free society. But every time I hear the suggestion that you are going to, in some way prohibit publication, the ramif ications of the prohibition of publica tion are not gone into. It's all looked upon as a good thing; it doesn't appear in the newspaper.

But that's not necessarily a good thing, Mr. Chairman. What is the next step that you can't know about it ? Because if anybody can go and know about it you will have professional gossipmongers who go to trials, and you can't get it in the papers, you want to find · out who's accused, you have to pay me. And all of a sudden, you've got a bootleg organiz ation which cannot be prohibited. Are you going to say that a man who goes to see a trial is prohibited from talking about it? What are the ultimate results? And the ultimate results, Mr.

Chairman, as I sort of envisage them and try to calculate them and see the we b growing and grow ing, are far wo rse than the fact that we have a system whereby an accused person is charged, and it appears inthe paper, and it is not a desirable thing and does result in some, not only disc omf iture, but some actual damage.

If there was a way of dealing wi th the damage - and I am not even suggesting that there is because there are other damaging things in our society , and not all of them can be dealt wit h - but if the wa y of dealing wi th the damage is prohibiting the publication of the accused's name, that he is an accused, prohibiting the publication of what is taking place at a trial, it would involve two things. First of all, the prohibition of the newspapers, secondly, ultima tely, if you are going to make it effective, the secrecy of trials; having trials in secret will result in far more injustice.

And I repeat, Dreyfus would never have been acquitted if trials we re secret. It wo uldn't have gone past the first trial. He'd ne ver have been acquitted. The first trial, I think, was secret. It was a court-martial-type of thing. And it was only through continual pressure to have the facts made more and more open, to gain publicity for them, and to have them ulti mately published, it's as Zola said, that the truth lay smoldering and then it exploded, and once it exploded, we knew what the events we re and a great injustice was undone.

It wasn't completely undone; the man spent years on Devil's Island under circumstances which we re horrendous. But the publication ultimately resulted in the freedom. And therefore, Mr. Chairman, rm interested in canvassing, not making a definitive opinion, but canvassing those who say there should be no publication as to how, ultimat ely, this will affect the freedom of speech in our society; whether it wi ll come to a beneficial conclusion for accused people who are innocent, or we re guilty; whether it wi ll be of benefit or whether we are inviting something far more nefarious than what we 've already got.

MR . CHAI RMAN: The Me mber for Burrows. MR. BEN HANU SCHAK : Mr. Chairman, I merely want to state a few comments on the matter of wi retapping. I was of the im pression that when an order is obtained authorizing the interception of telephone conversations, it is the telephone instrument that is used by, or at the residence of, or office of or wh erever, but is known to be co mmo nly used by the person under investigation, whic h is the instrument that's tapped.

But the debate that took place on Friday, and following today, seems to indicate that need not nec essarily be so, that for the purpose of intercepting telephone conversations, any one of a num ber of telephone instruments could be tapped. For example, there's a subject of investigation, and the police identify certain individuals that subject is known to have talked to on the telephone. So, instead of tapping the telephone instrument of the subject under investigation, they may tap any num ber of those other telephones.

And then, what disturbs me even more - and if rm wrong, then I would hope that the Attorney-General would very qui ckly correct me - what disturbs me even more is that the notice that eventually is sent of the wi retapping is sent to the person who is under investigation , and he is then told, after the exp iration of whatever period of time it is, that , you know, your telephone conversations were intercepted or words to that effect.

But the other innocent parties, as it we re, no way involved in - or perhaps in no way involved in wh atever is being investigated - never received any notice whatsoever of the fact that they we re participating in telephone conversations whi ch we re inte rcepted by the police. And that's a disturbing point about the whole thing, Mr. Chairman. - 576 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 And what disturbs me even more, not only the fact that it's an invasion of privacy of individuals who may have absolutely no thing to do wit h the matte r that's being investigated, but it also opens the door to the interception of privileged co mmunications - doctor and patient , husband and wife, lawyer and client , between Cabinet Ministers - which is a privileged conversation.

And in other words, under one order to investigate or to intercept telephone conversations of what individual, theoretically, the police could tap the phones of everybody in Manit oba, under that one order, and nobody would be any the wi ser, except eventually the person whose telephone was tapped would receive notice that, for a certain period of time, bu t nobody else knows. Now, when I say that, theoretically, everybody's telephone in Manitoba could be tapped, and I'm no t really saying that all that facetiously, because it certainly could be done, could happen in a small community.

Let's say a businessman, or a doctor, or a lawyer may be under investigation - he might be suspected of having committed an offence, perhaps income tax evasion. Well, they won't tap his phone. They need not necessarily tap his phone.

But they'll tap the phones of his clients, of his patients, of those indeed he does business with, because they want to get some indication of the volume of business that he does, of the size of his practice, and hopefully, the telephone conversations will give them some reading on that to determine whether he, in fact, does only earn $5,0 00 net income a year or is no t his income $50 ,000 a year? And, on that type of an abuse, that type of an invasion of privacy can occur, and the law enf orcement au thorities are in no way bound to give notice. Now I think, Mr. Chairman, there's a simple answer to this.

I would hope there's a simple solution to it. I'm not an electronics comm unicati ons expert, but I would suspect that our technological advancement is far enough down the road to devise such instruments, if such instruments have not already been devised.

A wi retap instrument, if that must be done - and I appreciate the fact that on occasion, to collect evidence against a person suspected of a crime, the police cannot give the person suspected advance notice of their collecting evidence, because he'll go and cover up the evidence and destroy it and all that sort of thing when there's a danger of that happening - but at least not to involve innocent people in this fashion. So, is there not a wire tap instrument which, if the police must resort to this method, this tactic of collecting evidence which I must admit, Mr.

Chairman, I do find distasteful, but I say, if this must be done, then is there not an instrument which would record the telephone numbe rs dialed by the person being investigated, and record only the side of the telephone conversation from the subject being investigated, only record his converation and not the other side? And now, I don't think that this is anything that's so difficult and rm not going to get into an electronics debate over here, this is not the place for it.

But all that I'm suggesting to the Attor ney-General is that he and his staff, and wi th his counterparts in other provinces - because I realize this is a federal matter - perhap:; they ought to enquire into the availability or the feasibility of designing some instrument which would not invade the privacy of innocent persons. Now, you would say, well, that's only one-half of the conversation, of what value is that? At least if the police have that , then let me give you an example.

A person under investigation phones a travel agent to make reservations on a certain flight to stay in a certain city at a certain hotel. The wi retap instrume nt records one-half of the conversation. You do not know whether he, in fact, made reservations or what, but you know that he had enquired about making reservations. From the telephone nu mber, you know what travel agency it was that he telephoned. So then, the investigating officer could req uest the travel agent to confirm that telephone conversation.

And if the travel agent wi shes to confirm of his own volition, he will; and if the travel agent does not wish to, there are wa ys and means that the law enforcement officer can obtain that type of information, and at the same ti me giving full protection to the person giving the information, rather than this method of ...

Because the way it is now, we do not know, all of us in this room may have our telephones tapped for some reason or another, because the police may be investigating some individual or individuals who, in the opinion of the police, they have reason to beli eve that those individuals may be speaking to us on the phone at some time or another, so they tap our phones to record those two int ercepting telephone conversations. And that's the part that I think really is abhorrent, Mr. Minister.

And something, as I've said before, I appreciate that this is a federal matter, but some thing that you, wit h your colleagues, at your interprovincia l conferences, ought to address yourself to and attempt to correct, in your dealings and negotia tions wit h the Federal Minister in charge of the Administration of this Act. - 577 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 MR . MER CIER: Mr. Chairman, wi th respect to the Member for Inkster's comme nts about the heading of the

section being Protection of Privacy, it is really headed in the Crimi nal Code, "Invasion of Privacy", quite accurately. MR . GR EEN: He says, it's called The Protection of Privacy. MR. MER CIER: I think at one ti me there has been a reference to that parti cular section. In the Criminal Code it's entitled, perhaps more ... MR . GREEN: I was referring to the Act, there's a separate Act, The Protection of Privacy Act. That means that they're going to invade privacy for sure, to protect it. -(Interjection)- That's right. It gives them the legal right to that. MR . ME RCIER: I take it that was the title of a bill that am ended this particular

section of the Code. The actual

section in the Code is entitled, "Invasion of Privacy." Mr. Chairman, the Member for Burrows referred to the possibility of widespread wi retaps wh ich could occur, in the opinion of the police. I would point out and firstly say, of course, I'm sure all of us - and all me mbers of the public - are genuinely concerned about invasion of priv acy and any unjustifiable invasions of privacy.

But these sections of the Act are subject to judi cial con trol and are only done upon application to a judge, and the judge must be satisfied that the application is in the best int erest of the administration of justice, and that other investigative procedures have been tried and have failed, or that the matter is one of some urgency. He made reference to a suggestion that perhaps all parties who are part of the telephone call be notified as well as just the object of the judicial order. I can forese e, at this point in time, that there might be some difficulties in that.

Supposing there is a situation where the judicial order has been made for a wi retap, and there is no prosecution developed from that wi retap . The wi retap does not yield any evidence of a crim inal act, yet a person would perhaps, who called the subject of the wiretap, wo uld receive a notice which would in some way indicate that the person was under investigation and might, to him, indicate that he's guilty of something, when in fact he may not be guilty of anything.

That might not be in keeping wi th the concerns that I've expressed about fairness to accused persons, and there mi ght be some difficulty in that. I just raise that as one problem that I might foresee in actually serving a notice to all parties. Of course, there's an obvious difficulty wi th only recording one side of the conversation, in that the answ er wo uld sim ply not appear in the context of the whole discussion. Mr. Chairman, those are all the com ments I have at this time. MR . CH AIRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I have one question.

Could the Minister indicate, the order for a wi retap, what does it say? Does it state whose telephones wi ll be tapped? Or does it merely state that authorization is granted for telephone calls to and from the individual's name to be intercepted? MR. CHAIR MA N: The Hono urable Minister. MR . ME RCIER: Mr. Chairman, the authorization, particularly wit h respect to the point raised by the Me mber for Burrows, states the identity of the persons, and generally describes the place at which communicat ions may be intercepted. So that the order, generally, restricts the wire taps to certain specified addresses.

Or locations within a building. MR . HANUSCHAK: Does it mean that, or it could be as broad as a city? That telephone calls to and from John Doe may be intercepted in the City of Winnipeg. MR . ME RCIER: No, because the Code clearly states that the authorization shall state and gen erally describe the place at which private commun ications may be intercepted, which I believe is an address. MR. HANU SCHAK: Is the order granting telephone conversation interception, is it a public document, after the order is grant ed? - 578 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 MR . MERCIER: No. MR. HANUSCHAK : So, therefore, I have no place to go to where I could deter mine whe ther or not my telephone nu mber is tapped? MR. MER CIER: You would receive a notice if your telephone is tapped. MR . HANU SCHAK: Well, as I understood it in the earlier debate, Mr. Chairman, the only recipient of a notice is the subject under investigation. Now, the order may say that John Doe is the subject of investigation, but the order may say that telephone numbe r 339-7595 at 11 Aster Avenue, be intercepted. So then I would not receive notice. Am I not correct in that? MR .

MER CIER: That's correct. MR . CHAI RMAN: The Honourable, the Leader of the Opposition. MR . PAWLEY : Mr. Chairman, I don't want to pursue this partic ular matter if there's other questions relating to the wi re-tapping. I would await my turn. Otherwise I'd like to pursue a separate item. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Me mber for Ste. Rose, was this in the same ite m? The Member for Wellington, then. You're not paying attention. MR . A. R. (Pete) ADAM: Yes. Take it easy, Mr. Chairman. We were discussing problems in the House wit h the me mbers opposite.

The question I had for the Minister, through you, is over the weekend I received a telephone call from a concerned citizen who feels that they would like to know what recourse they have in regard to harassment by law enforcement officers. They feel that they are continua lly being harassed, no matter what happens in the commu nity. I suggested that I would bring it up at the committee here to find out if the Minister could advise us what to advise these people.

Who can they turn to when they are being cont inually harassed by law enforceme nt officers, that no matter what happens in the community, it always ends up at somebody's same door? MR . MER CIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think if the people involved, or if the member would like to write directly to me, wit h any evidence that they may have in support of that suggestion, we wi ll look into that matter, and we have done so in previous situations. MR. ADAM: Yes, I have one more question, Mr. Chairman, but I think it would be more appropriately addressed under Law Enforcement ..

I am not sure though, I would perhaps ask your guidance. It has to do wit h people requesting assistance in regards to an investigation, in regards to a possible criminal act. I don't know where to bring this up, whether I should bring it now or on Law Enforcement. MR. MER CIER: I am not sure what the me mber has in mind. MR . AD AM: Well, supposing that I feel that I have been aggrieved by someone and go to the Law Enforcement and say, look, I would like you to investigate this. And you can't get an investigation, and subsequent events indicate that there was perhaps a crim inal act involved.

Where shall I bring this up? MR. MER CIER: You could bring it up right now. Again, if you wish to yourself, or on behalf, or the individuals involved, to write to ... MR. CHAIR MA N: I call the committee to order; they're having a hard time to hear further back. MR . MER CIER: ... write directly to me, we will look into the matter. - 579 -

Monday, March 10, 19 80 MR . CHAIRMAN: I have the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, bu t if the Me mber for Wellington is on the same subject, I would probably give him priority. MR . CORRIN: Mr. Chairman, I thank you. I just want to speak further to what the Member for Burrows has said, and also what the Minister has said, on the subject of wi retap. The Minister, as I understand it, has suggested that if no prosecution emanates from a wi retap, then it serves no use ful purpose to serve a notice on a person, be that person the subject of the initial warrant or be that some third party.

Well, I would suggest with respect, Mr. Chairman, that on that point a line must be drawn between effect ive policing and un w.arranted harassment. And I think that is the rationale for those of us who would provide notice to persons who are not charged. I think that we are entitled to know whether or not police are interfering wi th our private affairs on a wa rranted basis, a justifiable basis, or whether they are doing so somewhat capriciously. And I don't think it would do any harm to the state of justice in our province, or our country, to have people accorded those rights and liberties.

I respect the right of the police to do their job and prevent crime, but I think we'd all agree that an indivi dual's right to privacy is some thing that is equally im portant. And I think that we must realistically be afraid of the potential, the harmful potential, of such an instrument as the wiretap and bugging presents. In our very technical society, it's a frightening we apon in the arsenal of the police.

And although in our coun try we' ve enjoyed a degree of liberty and harmony, social harmony, that is virtually unprecedenterd in terms of the wo rld's history, there are examp les in contem porary society of countries where the police have indeed made use, unwholesome use, of this sort of privilege and opportunity.

There is also - and I asked the Minister to address himself to The official Secrecy Act, and the provision that the Minister, the Solici tor-General of Canada, could order the police to intercept anyone's calls wi thout any review at all, and I noted that 517 such electronic surveillances we re made in 1976 in this country alone under that Act. I think it's necessary that we sharply scrutinize and review, evaluate, the potential that such technological devices might have, and how they might imp act the freedoms and li berties that people enjoy in this country.

To reinforce my colleague's point - this is my colleague for Burrows - when he says that many outstanding third-party surveillances are made in the course of execution of specific warrants, I can use Americ an data and experience which I have managed to derive from an

article by Allan Borvois, who is the counsel to the Canadian Ci vil Liberties Association. Mr. Borvois, in an

article written in February of 1978 , found that in the United States, and I will just quote; "The Am erican experience reveals that to date, some 1,500 people have been convicted of cri minal offenses arising out of 1969 and 197 0 cases involving electronic bugs. During the course of this bugging, however, the Am erican au thorities overheard more than 40,000 people, in more than half-a-million conversations. The overwhel ming num ber of these people, of course, we re probably innocent of wrongdoing. The trouble is, the electronic bugs cannot discrimi nate.

Thus, as the practice increases, so does the vulnerability of increased numb ers of innocent people. And that, Mr. Chairman, succinctly, is the point of the Member for Burrows - and I think, in my own way, I was trying to make earlier - that the potential havoc and harm is so massive in scale, because of technical innovation and because of the employment of this sort of surveillance mechanism and me thod, that so mething has to be done now to reverse the state of the law. There have to be checks and balances that will assure that the police do not unnecessarily utilize this very extraordinary and special pow er.

And this is why we have asked the Attorne y-General to state his position, and he didn't, Mr. Chairman. With respect , he did not say whether he believed in the provisions, whether he be lieved the provisions of the official Secrets Act were equitable or necessary, or how they might be tem pered. He did make a statement, though, wit h respect to police surveillance of third parties, one which I personally disagree with, but nevertheless he did candidly state his position.

So I would ask again whether the Minister could indicate whether he feels the official Secrets Act is adequate in its present form, or whe ther it requires revision and ame ndment, and whether or not he wi ll fruitfully participate in discussions and perhaps even enjoin discussions, designed to facilitate the revision of an am endment of that particular piece of legislation. - 580 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 MR . CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MER CIER: Mr. Chairman, the concerns that the Me mber for Wellington raises, Isuppose, are exactly why the applicat ions have to be made to superior court judges in order to be approved and dealt wi th before the wiret aps can proceed. And that, under the present legislation, is exactly where the protec tion of individual rights and lib erties is looked after. What other method is the Member for Wellington suggesting be used, other than approval by a superior court judge ? MR . CORRIN: Well, as I thought I indicated, Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister, I beli eve that there should be statutory provision for notice to all persons whose telephone conversations are electronically bugged. I think, for instance, in the case of using the Pil utik case as a case at hand and an example, I think that there should have been provision in the law so that the other two judges, whose telephone conversations were taped and monito red for over a month , should have been informed of the fact that they had been the subject of that sort of eavesdropping.

I think, then, people know ing that that would be the case, I think that we could expect that the police would certainly be more than reasonable in their application of this extraordinary power; knowing, for instance, that a judge or, for that matter, any ci tizen, would have to be given noti fication of the fact that they had done that.

So, if a person like a judge, obviously not ••. these judges presumably were above-board and of course were wholly uninvolved wit h any criminal activity , we re the subject of electronic surveillance, then they could launch a case in the courts if it was wholly unnecessary, if they felt it warranted. And moreover, they could bring this to public attention. And I think the police wo uld justifiably be embarrassed and desist from such activity in the future. MR . ME RCIE R: Mr.

Chairman, I think if the Member for Wellington wi ll consult with the member seated to his left, he wi ll appreciate, as I believe it was that member's position at that time, that the legislation was very new at the time, and after that unfortunate incident, procedures were revised wi thin the department to ensure what happened in that particular case did not occur again. MR . CHAIR MA N: The time being 5:3 0, I am now leaving the Chair and will return at 8:00 p.m. SUPP LY - LABOUR AND MANP OWER MR . CHAI RMAN , Mr.

Abe Kovnats (Radisson): I would draw the honourable me mbers' attention to page 68 of the Main Esti mates, Department of Labour and Manpowe r. The item under discussion is Resolution No. 90, 2. Labour Division,(

a) Workplace Safety and Health, (1 )Salaries-pass. The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR . FOX: Well, Mr. Chairman, we are at this item, and I had hoped that we could get the co-operation of the Minister. He indicated in his ope ning remarks that he was going to outline as much information as possible, so that we could proceed wi thout having to repeat and go over certain of the ground. Now, he hasn't even said anything about this department, and already it's being asked to be passed. MR . CHAI RM AN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MACM ASTER: Mr.

Chairman, I was getting to my feet, and getting my papers ready, when you mentioned your article, and I fully intended to do what I said I always would do. The Workplace, Safety and Health Branch is responsible for the imp lementation for the Workplace, Safety and Health Act,

Chapter W-2 10 and its regulations. The branch' s operations are divided into four basic functions: Safety and Health Inspectorate, Educational Services, Industrial Hygiene and Occupational Medicine. The current staff com plement consists of 43 positions, including one vacancy which is presently in the process of being filled. The organizat ional structure of the branch was revised and rationalized this year to - 581 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 take proper advantage of the consolidation of wor ker safety services within this branch. Within the new organizati onal structure, the branch formally established an Educational Services

section which offers a multitude of educational programs and resource materials to Manitoba workplaces. I should say at this time, Mr. Chairman, that if the me mbers opposite were looking through Hansard, they would notice that last year I said we 'd be doing exactly that, we' d be the educating internally, educating outside also, and we 've got into that fairly extensively. In addition to the traditional in-plant training sessions, this

section is actively promot ing its programs in Manitoba schools, and is currently evaluating its role in the apprenticeship training programs. In conforming wi th the basic policy, the Workplace Safety and Health is a joint concern. This

section encourages joint participation by labour and manageme nt in its courses. As part of the branch's efforts to create a higher awarene ss of safety and health concerns, publication of the Industrial Hygiene bulletins and Safety and Health comm enced. Preparation work was initiated on several codes of practice relative to specific wo rkplace concerns, such as confined entry, escavation, first aid and heat stress. The major new initiative developed by the branch over this year has been the multiphase program approach to the con trol and regulation of toxics and contam inants in the workplace.

This new approach has promoted a high degree of work place awareness and involvement, as we ll as providing for dispersion of the branch's activities throughout Manitoba industry in a scope not before possible. The recent introduction of occupationa l health services in designated industries must be considered as a significant initiat ive in the advancement of our Safety and Health Program in Manitoba. In a notable, innovative step for Manitoba workplaces, the designation specified that the selection of the physician in charge of the service must be ratified by the Workplace Safety and Health Com mittees.

A laboratory safety program was introduced by the branch, designed mainly to promote an aw areness of chemical hazards and safe working practices. The program has been applied mainly in school laboratories, but has been extended to hospital laboratories and other laboratories in the province. Staff development has been a major concern to the branch, and this year new opportunities we re provided in this area to the presentation of internal seminars on toxicology, report wr iting and investigation techniques.

The first prosecution recorded under The Workplace Safety and Health Act was initiated this year on violation of the Act and regulations pertaining to excavations. At the present ti me, the rationalization of criteria and expansion of designated workplaces which wi ll require joint Workplace Safety and Health Comm ittees is of primary importance to our department. Some time ago, I requested the Workplace Safety and Health Advisory Council to establish criteria for the future designation of safety co mm ittees in Manitoba wo rkplaces. I expect their recomm endations on this subject very shortly.

The con trol of asbestos exposure in Manitoba workplaces has become a major focus of attention for this branch. Recent acquisiti on of additional, sophisticated equipment and the addition of a position have given Man itoba asbestos identification capabilities second to none in Canada. To further enhance our work in this area, we have requested the Advisory Council to establish a co mmit tee to review the overall problem of asbestos exposure in Manitoba workplaces.

The department is co-operating wit h labour and manageme nt in the Manitoba construction industry to search out solutions to improvements in the safety and health performance on construc tion work sites. The matter of delivery of effective educational programs to this industry is currently under review, and in the coming year, the construc tion safety regulations wi ll be separated from the industrial safety regulations. The regulations will be reviewed and redrafted where necessary to ensure they are meeting an effecti ve need in Manitoba wor kplaces.

A hearing conservation program wi ll be developed in the current year to identify those wor kplaces where excessive exposure to noise occurs. The problem wi ll specify appropriate action to be taken to ensure that worker exposure is controlled wi thin acceptable limits. Our prime objective is to concentrate on im proving the quality of services delivered by the Workplace Safety and Health Branch. To this end, we will be implementing a thorough review of programs whi ch have been in place for some time, to ensure they are meet ing the require ments of the Manitoba wo rkplaces.

The first such review wi ll take place on a silicosis program, and includes the x-ray and lung function tests in designated workers. The number of employees we're requesting is 44. 23 and last year it was 42. 23. It's an addition of 2. The two new ones, of course, aren't filled, and there's one vacancy at the present time. It's being bulletined. - 582 -

Monday, March 10, 198 0 MR . CHAI RMA N: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I thank the Honourable Minister for his opening remarks. I wonder if he could give us a breakdown of the numbe r of plants that are requ ired to have safety commi ttees, and whether they are all functioning and have met the requirem ents of the Workplace Safety and Health Act. MR . Ma cMA STER: There's 313 ; 222 we believe are wo rking satisfactorily. There are 33 that need more work on th em, and there's 15 that have closed down. There's 11 wit h very few employees. We're working wi th Manitoba Hydro now.

They haven't got their two working exactly correct , we don't feel. And the Mines Department, of course, have some which we think the review on Safety in the Mine will deal with, and we expect that wi thin the next couple of weeks. So, to be precise, they all weren't wo rking just as well as we'd like them to, but by and large the majority of them are. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The Minister indicated that there was one prosecution in respect to a construction accident. There we re other accidents and prosecutions. Were those instituted through another

section of his Labour Department, or also through The Workplace Safety Health Act? MR. MacMASTER: There's only one that's been finalized, Mr. Chairman, that we 're aware of. Two are now in the Attorney-Gen eral's office, and one is before the courts. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honourable Me mber for Churchill. MR . COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

Perhaps before we go any further we can ask the Minister, because I understand from his comments today, and from other mat erials, that there's been a fair am ount of reorganization wit hin the department, that certain clerical staff positions have been dropped, so as to provide for more inspection staff, and that there is a substantially different makeup of the workforce of these 44.23 positions.

I wonder if the Min ister will be kind enough to take the time to go through and just, in the general area such as inspection, such as clerical or director, assistant director, whatever, point out where the staff is located wi thin this global nu mber of 44. 23 staff person years? MR . MacM ASTER: In Administration, there are six people. In Occup ational Medicine, there's two ; Safety and Health Inspections, there's 23 people; Educational Services, there are five; and in Industrial Hygiene there's 7.2 3. MR .

COWAN: Yes, and I would ask him to break that down just a bit more in the case of the Safety and Health Officers, those operating ent irely wi thin the City of Winnipeg, or operating out of Winnipeg, and those operating out of cities elsewhere in the province. MR . MacMA STER: There's two in Brandon, Mr. Chairman, and one in The Pas. MR . CH AIRMA N: (1)-pass. The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR . COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. The Minister said there we re 313 commit tees, whic h was the original number of designated Safety and Health Comm ittees.

Is the Minister including in that figure the recent designation by Order-in-Council of Canadian Bronze, or is there in actuality now 314 co mmit tees, of which some are not working? MR . Mac MA STER: 314 , I forgot about that one addition. MR . COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Then the Minister can confirm that there have, in actuality , been no additions to the num ber of Workplace Safety and Health Comm ittees in the past 27 month s - or actually, it goes back even further than that - rm not certain as to the exact date of the Order-in-Council.

I'm certain that I could find it if ne cessary, but I know the Minister has that. But since that original Order-in-Council which has designated 313 sites for Safety and Health Comm ittees, we have only seen the one addition, which is Canadian Bronze, in fact. - 583 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 This is a point to which the Minister made reference in his opening re marks. I know it's a point that has been brought to his attention by not only his Advisory Council, which I think probably first brought up the matter to the Minister, that they were somewhat concerned that there seemed to be very little progress in respect to adding comm ittees to the existing commit tees. The Min ister referred to the fact that they were wor king on that, he was working on his department.

I know it is be fore the Advisory Council and that they are trying to develop criteria for the addition of comm ittees. I would ask the Minister if he can expound a bit on those remarks, and indicate what crit eria is being exami ned as appropriate criteria for the extension of designated wo rkplaces. In other words, are we talking about a workplace that has 10 or more work ers? Are we talking about wo rkplaces that, because they show past accident records which are unacceptable, that they will be designated?

Are we talking about a sort of ad hoe designation , as our government did in deciding that an arbitrary nu mber wi ll be designated and then proceeding wit h that? Can the Minister take the time to elaborate on that? And I would also hope that he'd be able to give us a time table, because this is a matter of some urgency and it's a matter that's quite frankly, in my opinion, overdue. Action is overdue on this and these committees are, in many instances, performing a valuable function - and in some instances they are not.

The fact that a workplace has a Safety and Health Commi ttee - and I'm certain the Minister will agree wit h me - does not mean that it is a safe and healthy workplace. That, indeed, is not the fact. And I have talked to many workers that are involved at wo rkplaces that do have desi gnation under the Order-in-Council and workplaces that don't.

And some of those that don't have very effective commit tees that are work ing, either through the union that have been negotiated - some of them have commi ttees that are working, even in non-union places, that are work ing effectively - lots have co mmit tees that aren't wo rking, including those that have been designated. Some of the ones which the Minister considers to be working satisfactorily may indeed be work ing satisfactorily, but the imp act of them isn't being felt down at the shop floor level, and that is a problem.

So I would like the Minister to spend some time on what I consider to be probably one of the most pertinent items under Old Business. In other wo rds, not wi shing to place any valued judgment on this particular item in comparison to the Carc inogen Study, or in comparison to the Noise Study or the other new acti vites of the Department. This is a matter under Old Business, and I think it's a matter that we should spend some time and discuss it. So if the Minister would take that opportunity to elaborate on it, I know that that information will be put to good use. MR . Mac MASTER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, for the record, I specifically had asked the Advisory Council to look at expansion of the Safety Committees. We have to keep in mind that the ones that we presently have aren't all working as well as we'd like them to. Now that's a degree of satisfaction by our inspectors and knowledge of the people wit hin the plants. It's pretty hard to draw a specific line as to how well it's working and how well it's not. But we have determined - and I'm being very frank here - that there are some that we' re not satisfied wi th the parti cular operation.

That's why we said last year, and we have in fact set up an educational group to go out and meet wi th the Safety Comm ittees, be they unionized or non-unionized, and the com panies, in an effort to tell them and explain to them the real need for it, and the benefit of having good working Safety Comm ittees - ones that the benefits wi ll be reaped by the em ployees and in fact, by the employer - and we 've done a great of education in that field.

We note that last year, we said there we re only 149 that have Safety Comm ittees, that we felt in fact needed additional work, and there were only 105 that we said there was only 149 that have safety committees, that we felt in fact needed additional work, and there was only 105 that we felt were wo rking reasonably well. Now, wha tever that's worth , out of 300 last year in, w e we re open and honest and said there was only about 105 that we we re satisfied wi th. This year, we 're saying there's 222 that we 're satisfied wi th. I'm not sure whether the membe rs opposite consider that progress or not.

I'm sure they do and, again, it's to the degree. I'm reasonably satisfied that over the year, we 've more than doubled the ones that we' re satisfied now are doing a good job. - 584 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 We still have some work to do with existing ones. I understand that there is a small correction, not a major one, to what I've said. I understand that the Ad visory Council has, in fact, forwarded a copy of their recommendations and it's someplace within the department now. On expansion of those safety committees, and that will be given due considersation very shortly because I think we can exercise a fair amount of effort on the nu mbers of those committees that aren't working, once you've got them working, you can't totally forget them.

But if we now have got it down to a much smaller nu mber, and if we could produce 11 5 or 12 0 - bring them uplast year, I would think, in a period of a few months, that we should be looking at the opportunity to expand that particular facet of this whole particular Act. MR. CHAIRM AN : Pass. The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR . COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairperson. The Minister is absolutely correct then, to what he considers to be progress and what we consider to be progress is going to substantially differ by the degree.

In other words, he may consider that the department has made substantial progress, we may consider to have not been substantial progress and vice versa. He may not consider it in one instance to be substantial progress and we may. So we are going to, especially in this particular area, we are going to spend some time, not any great length of time, but some time in discussing the objectives and considerations that we believe to be pertinent.

And we are going to try to suggest to the Minister areas where we feel they have not proceeded rapidly or far enough in, and we are going to want to discuss some of the other areas that we don't believe they have made any effort or any substantial effort to date. I would like to see those areas considered.

Because what we are talking about here is not the Wor kplace, Safety and Health Division per se, and I don't want to be ruled out of order for that statement, but what we are talking about is the safety and health of the workers in Manitoba's work force, and there are far more than 314 workplaces that deserve attention. And as the Minister said, that's a misleading statement, because out of those there's 14, 20, 26, which don't seem to be functioning. Ei ther they have too few employees to function or they have closed down.

So if that is the grant you are talking about, less than 20 0 workplaces that have designated committees, and that designation is there for a reason, it does have some impact on the functioning of this committee, and it also has some impact on the conditions within the workplace, are conditions that the committee will address itself to. It gives the committee some clout, it gives the committee some extra powe r to be able to deal with the very serious safety and health concerns that all work ers must face in one way or another.

The fact of that matter is amply demonstrated by the addition of Canadian Bronze to the designated list, the only addition in 27 months. In other words, there was a Workplace, Safety and Health Committee functioning at Canadian Bronze previous to the designation.

It was not functioning to the degree to which it could perhaps, and that is - I can only guess at the Minister's motivation for designating that committee - that is perhaps why that area was committed designated so that committee would have that sort of clout that comes with that process and would be able to work it that much more effectively and efficiently on behalf of its participants and its memberships and the employees employed in that particular workplace. So we must have, we must have substantial and immediate progress in this area. There must be more committees that are designated.

We must give more power to those committees, because the purpose of those committees, and rm certain the Minister will agree, is to put in place in each workplace an inspectorate - inspectors - people who know some of the problems that they are dealing with, people who want to learn about those problems that they don't know about, people who want to make their workplace safer and healthier, and it gives them a tool with which to work. It gives them an opportunity to bring their experience to bear and to bring their pressure to bear to aid management in making workplaces safer and healthier for all workers.

So we must have substantial progress on that. I know I speak for the members on this side when I say we are disappointed that there has not been the type of progress that one would think could have been made. There are other jurisdictions around us that have far more, far more Workplace, Safety and Health committees operating. There are other jurisdictions that have gone into it with a different criteria for designating a workplace. Perhaps that's what our government should have done, I don't know.

I wasn't privy to the conversations at the time._ But there are jurisdictions that say "Okay, every workplace over 20 people or 10 people will be designated a workplace in effect, and will have to have committees." I know Saskatchewan has 3,000 committees, which are designated on the basis of 10 or more employees, and there are no exceptions. - 585 -

Monday, March 10, 1980 There are no exceptions if rm to believe Mr .

Robert Sass, the Associate Deputy Minister of Labour and Dir ector of the Occupational Health and Safety Division, and that 30 percent of those commit tees, 30 percent of the 3,000 co mm ittees - so we 're talking approxim ately 900 comm ittees now - send in minutes to the division on a re gular basis. ln other wo rds, the division knows what is happening in each of those commit tees and it goes, according to my understanding, into some data banks for a computer and then that information is used to develop new ideas, to develop new support services for other com mittees.

In other words, you learn from your successes, and that's some thing that we have to do. Sixty percent of the commit tees, 1, 800 of the commit tees send in minutes on a no n-regular basis. ln other wo rds, they're getting some minutes and 10 percent of those 3,000 comm ittees or 30 0 are considered to be non-functioning commit tees at the ti me being. The time being in this instance would be June of last year. Those are when the figures that I'm using, originated.

If there are no minutes received from a committee, then there are no apparent problems at that particular com pany, then the division does not go in and demand the minutes, but if there are problems then the division does go in and demand the minutes. And that's why we have instances where some are not providing minutes, but are considered to be functioning, nonetheless. That's just one approach. Ontario has another approach. Alberta has another approach.

Perhaps the wor st approach I mi ght, as an aside, if I can is the federal government's approach where they say that they can designate any place as a comm ittee and haven't designated any place in the year-and-a-half or how ever long that legislation has been on the books. So today, there are no designated functioning Safety and Health com mit tees in the federal jurisdiction, and that's a tragedy because the commit tees are a new concept, bu t they are an im portant step along the way of shifting con trol. And here I com e to the crux of the issue. What do the commit tees do?

The commit tees provide workers wit h an opportunity to have more con trol over their own destiny in the area of wo rkplace, safety and health . They do not extend beyond that. They are not designed to wrest away from management certain intrinsic rights. They are designed to enable worke rs in the workplaces to take some control over the workplace, safety and health aspects of their job.

But even that in itself is a threat to manageme nt , and I don't believe that there is anyone in this room who would contradict that statement that management has always considered the direction of the workforce to be its sole responsibility. Before I came to this session today, I had opportunity to go down to the Nationa l Film Board, and I was wat ching a nu mber of movies on occupational Safety and Health, new movies that are out, trying to get a feel for audio-visual resource materials for courses. And in one of them the manager of INCO, a Mr.

Brown, was talking about some of the safety and health - and this is not in Thompson, bu t it is in Sudbury, I must make that point - was talking about safety and health in that operation. And he said quite point-blank during his presentation, during an interview on the film, he said that, "Y es, we accept suggestions from the wor kers. We accept ideas.

But it's our responsibility and it is also our sole responsibility to decide on whether or not those suggestions and ideas are actually put into practice." So, even in this day and age - and that is not an old film - even in this day and age, we still see the companies saying, we have certain management rights which shall not be abused. It's an area of conflict every time negotiatio ns open up.

The com pany brings in a bill that wants to expand management rights, a proposal, and the union brings in a proposal that wants to take away from manage ment rights, to a certain extent , because that is what the whole process is involved in, workers trying to gain some control. There is another way to do it, rather than at the bargaining table; you can do it through legislation. You can say to the company that they must have commi ttees, and you can give these commi ttees rather far-reaching rights, rather far-reaching responsibilities.

And a perfect example is when the Minister's department put in place an occupational health service at Canadian Bronze.

The union came back and said - and it was at the union's insistence or suggestion; insistence is perhaps too strong a word - but I re member the correspondence that went bac k and forth on this particular occupational health service at Canadian Bronze, and the original concept was not to give the union the rig ht to - and I forget the Minister's exact wo rds on this - but the right to veto the choice of a doctor is what it is in essence. ln other words, it was not written in the original concept - and the Minister can correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe I'm wrong on this - it was not written in the original concept that the union would have the power to reject or to endorse - endorse is too weak a word in this instance - the pow er to reject any choice of the com panies. - 586 -

Monday, March 10, 19 80 I think what the original letter said was that the union would be advised or the Safety and Health commi ttee wo uld be ad vised of who it was. But there was no pow er in there to be able to either reject that person or to say, in actuality: Yes, you will have that person. They still don't have that particular pow er. But the unions came back and said: No, we want that power. We don't feel the occupational health service will work unless we have that sort of input into the occupational health service.

And so, to the Minister's credit in this particular instance, although it was not at his initiation, at least he reacted to that demand or that suggestion by the unions and did have that particular pow er drawn into the agreement for the occupational health service. That's an important point because now the wor kers in that particular operation could stand up and say, "We can actually have some con trol over the com pany doctor." Now, it's a wrong term, company doctor, perhaps I shouldn't phrase it in that wa y.

"We can now have control over a doctor who is going to be looking at us in the occupational sense." In other wo rds, is going to be examining and developing a pa tient-<loctor relationship wi th us in regard specifically to our occupatio nal illnesses and our occupatio nal hazards that we face at this job-site. Never before, never before did they have that power. It was alw ays the co mpany doctor. It was always a doctor • . • And the Member for Flin Flon knows full we ll; I see hi m listening intently because I know he's had dealings wi th co mpany doctors in his day.

It was always a com pany doctor who was paid by the com pany, who was chosen by the com pany, who was hired and fired by the company, who was responsible for dealing wi th their occupational problems at the job-site. And to change that is a major step, it is a major step. And it is im portant that we recognize that. It has always been the power of the company to totally control a worker's existence at work. No where else, Mr. Chairperson, can someone come up to you and say, "I want a sample of your blood and I want it now," and then take it. -(Interjection)- They could in the com pany. The com pany could do that.

When you walked through those gates or when you walked through the area and punched in, once you punched in you were at the mercy of that particular com pany and there we re no two ways about it. The com pany could demand, the company could tell you you were going to do a job which you knew - which you knew - would be to the detriment of your health, the detriment of your safety, could even kill you, but the com pany could say to you: You will do that job. And you didn't have to, you could quit, or you could be fired, that was your choice. But that was the only choice available to you.

You could try to talk your supervisor out of it, but the Me mber for Flin Flon and the Me mber for Kildonan know very we ll and wi ll tell me how successful they we re or how successful any worker is in trying to talk their way out of a dangerous job assignment. It wa sn't until pieces of legislation like the Workplace, Safety and Health Act we re put into place that these sort of powers were stripped from management and given to the workers. Now the work

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-13a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 13a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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