Manitoba Hansard — 16 May 1977 (Sitting 61A, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-61a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

.. •'· ISSN 0542-5492 FOURTH SESSION- THIRTIETH LEGISLATURE of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 26 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Peter Fox Speaker .· Vol. XXIV No. 61 A 10:00 a.m., Monday, May 16, 1977 Printed by P.N. Crosbie- Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

.. TIME: 10:00 a.m. THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Monday, May 16, 1977 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honou rable members to the gallery where we have some 30 principals, teachers and admin istrators from the Japanese Educational Ins titute, plus three interpreters. These people are the guests of our Department of Education . On behalf of the honourable members of the Legislative Assembly we welcome you.

Presenting Petitions; Read ing and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HONOUR ABLE SI DNEY GREEN, Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management (lnkster) on behalf of the Honour able Attorney-General, introdu ced Bill (No. 80)-An Act to amend The Legal Aid Services Society of Manitoba Act ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. STERLING R. LYON (Souris-Killarney): Mr.

Speaker, a question to the First Minister in the absence of the Minister in charge of Emergency Measures. Can the First Minister confirm that the evacuation of Nelson House, which took place over the week-end because of the forest fire threat, was conduc ted almost entirely by of ficials of the Town of Thompson, the International Nickel Company and a large numb er of voluntary people from the Town of Thompson, without too much help or assistance, if any at all, from Emergency Measures Organization? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister.

HONOUR ABLE EDWARD SCHREYER, Premier (Rossmere): I cannot confirm that, Mr. Speaker. That may be the case. I'll have to check with another Mr. Miller to ascertain the facts. I would think muc h depended upon whom was contacted in the initial instance but I shall check that out. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, on another matter. Can the First Minister advise what the position of his Ministry will be with respect to the call by the Premier of Ontario for a meeting of First Ministers to discuss the ener gy crisis with the Prime Minister? MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, there has been a meeting of Energy Ministers across Canada only a matter of recent days ago. On the other hand, if there is a consensus with respect to yet another meeting to discuss energy pricing in broad principle or in specifics, I should think that Manitoba's position would be to attend. However, we cannot help but feel that it is perhaps likely to be non productive coming so soon after the recent full-fledged Dominion-Provincial Conference on the same matter. MR. LYON: On the same point, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the First Minister could advise if he has received a copy of the communication from Premier Davis to the Prime Minister asking for the conference and soliciting his support for such a conference. MR. SCHREYER: That has not been brought to my attention, Mr. Speaker, but that is not to say that it may not be today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for River Heights. MR. SID NEY SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister. Premier Davis has written a letter to the Ontario municipalities asking them to refrain from advertising for Quebec industry.

I wonder if the First Minister could indicate whether any policy position has been determined by his government with respect to luring industry from Quebec to Manitoba dur ing this period of time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the matter has not arisen as a problem or as an issue. In the event that it does, we will have to strike a position. My own personal view is that we would not want to exacerbate difficulties that already exist insofar as Canadian Confederation is concerned. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister is prepared at this time to indicate that as a policy ofthe government with respect to the activities of the appropriate departments within this government. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend knows that policy is not arrived at by means of confirming or denyi ng or uttering positions in the question period. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister is in a position to undertake to determine whether in fact the appropriate officials from his department are not in fact following a policy which would be contrary to what appears to be his expressed position in answer to the first question. MR. SCHREYER: No, I don't agree to that, Mr. Speaker. I just finished saying that I do not believe that the matter has arisen in a specific issue or as a specific case. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. 3047

Monday, May 16, 1977 HONOUR ABLE RENE TOUPIN (Springfi eld): Mr. Speaker, last Friday the Honour able Member for Fort Rouge inqu ired about the CBC in Churchill. Although we have not been formally told of the CBC plans at Chu rchill, I understand that the CBC has informed the town council that it intends to close down its radio studio at Churchill. Churchill and area will, however, continue to receive radio and television network service from Wi nnipeg. We did, in the Department of Communication here, contact the CBC and were informed that the CBC plans have not been approved by the Commission.

Any change in the Churchill operation of the CBC will require an amendment to the licence which was granted by the CRTC. Therefore, when the CBC formal application to amend the Churchill licence is received by the CRTC, that body will issue a public notice and ask for public response. Thus, Mr. Speaker, there will be an opportu nity for the public and any member of this House who is so inclined to make their views known at that time. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to annou nce, prior to the Orders of the Day, that on Thursday evening - I've announced Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday - but on Thursday evening there wi ll be a meeting of the Economic Development Committee to consider the report of the Commun ities Economic Development Fund. And on Monday next, a meeting of the same committee to consider the report of the Manitoba Development Corporation. -(I nterjection)- Monday next, a week from today. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: A point of order, Mr.

Speaker. ls the House Leader referring to Monday, the 23rd, which is a statutory holiday? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, perhaps my dates are a problem. I thought that we were still two weeks away. But I did arrange for Monday next, I'll have to cancel the arrangements and make it Tuesday, Tuesday night. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Brandon West on the same matter of procedur e. MR. EDWARD McGILL: Mr. Speaker, to the Honou rable the House Leader.

In view oft he meeting called tonight to consider the report of McKenzie Seeds, I wonder if it is the intention of the Minister to distribute or to table the report in advance so that the members of the committee may have some idea of the report. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I rather doubt that. I think that what will occur is that the Chairman will deliver the report to the meeting. There have been some difficulties with tabl ing reports in advance and then having comments on them before the Chairman has given an indication as to what the problem is.

Members of the committee will have an opportunity, should they desire, to consider it and then we can call the Chairman back. But he will be making his report tonight. If there is time necessary, the honourable member will be given the ti me. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. lYON: Just on that procedural point, Mr. Speaker. Is the House Leader saying that the printed report which deals with the affairs of the company, as at March 31, 19 76, is not capable of being tabled? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: No, I didn't say that, Mr. Speaker.

I said that the Chairman of the Corporation would be delivering his report tonight and if honou rable members feel that they haven't had enough opportunity to consider it, or want to have further time, then they will be able to do so at a further meeting. But in the meantime, the Chairman's report will be delivered tonight. -(l nterjection) That's right. If necessary I'll adjourn the meeting, Mr. Speaker, that's right. Can we proceed now to second readings? ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 5. The Honour able Minister for Public Works. (Stand) Bill No. 39.

The Honour able Minister for Municipal Affairs. (Stan

d) Bill No. 51. The Honour able Member for Assiniboia. (Stand) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 56. The Honour able Member for Portage la Prairie. (Stand) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 59. The Honou rable Member for Swan River. (Stand) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 61 . The Honou rable Member for Gladstone. (Stand) BILL (NO. 62) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE CITY OF WINNIPEG ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 3048 _., • "'I I '

• ... .. Monday, May 16, 1977 Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 62, I would say the most important thing about that bill at the present time, or let us say that the most important thing that the people of the province or the city know about, is the tact that there is a reduction of councillors in the City of Winnipeg. Now we all know, Mr. Speaker, that it is probably desirable to have a reduction of councillors in the City of Win nipeg at the present time, and certainly the people of the city believe that there should be a reduction of council lors.

This is probably a very good move from the point of view that the less councillors there are discussing the overall policy of the city is good, because they will be able to sit down at the main council meetings and do what really the council shou ld be doing as far as policy-making is concerned. Mr. Speaker, it is a little bit worrisome though, the reduction of councillors, because of the amount of service that the local councillor has to give to his constituents that he represents. Local government is a service government, Mr. Speaker.

Local government is the place where people complain about their immedi ate problems and the problems closest to them, and they know tor one thing that the times when they want to call up and complain about where their money is being spent, in other words, the taxes that they pay, the people, they don't just want to know how it is being spent overall, they want to know how it is being spent to benefit them in their house or in their immediate area. And the local councillor is the person that they have to be able to get to. Mr.

Speaker, just let me read to you from a White Paper that was put out, "Proposals tor Urban Reorganization in the Greater Winnipeg Area. "This came out in 19 72, I believe, or 19 71 - pardon me, 19 70. lt says under the new concept of government, "We wish to make it completely clear, however, that it is the absolute conviction of this government that no attempt at urban reform can succeed unless it succeeds in strengthening the sense of identification and intensifying the communication between the citizens and the local government.

If Greater Wi nnipeg is in tact to become a better commu nity, a better place in which to live and work and play, it is essential that every effort be made, not merely to improve the quali ty of the local government, but to see to it that at any government forum the citizens of Greater Winnipeg in truth can and do have an effective say in the policies and programs which affect them. " Mr. Speaker, I don't really know how the present government is going to accomplish that statement, which was presented all over this city by the Member for St.

Johns, by making a redu ction in councillors such as they have, unless there is a change in the structure, the way the City of Winnipeg government is forced to work under the legislation made by this province. Mr. Speaker, there is absolutely no place in this bill that gives the cou ncillors more opportunity to service the people they represent. In fact, Mr. Speaker, there is less, because they haven't changed the structure of The City of Wi nnipeg Act to make the operation much more efficient, which I will speak to in a few minutes. Mr.

Speaker, there is nothing in this bill that is going to save the people of Winni peg money in any way, shape or form. If the people of Winnipeg believe that the reduction of councillors - and this seems to be the concept - everybody . believes that if you are going to reduc e the cou ncillors, you are going to save a lot of money. Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, the cost of the council lors in the City of Winn ipeg is one-half of one percent of the overall budget, so we can expect to save, with the reduction of council lors, a qua rter of one percent or thereabouts and if the people of Winnipeg expect to see that redu ction reflected in their tax bills they're very very wrong because it won't happen. Mr. Speaker, before amalgamation there were 112 council lors in the City of Winn ipeg, the Greater City of Wi nnipeg, with a reduction to 50. And the day we had the reduction to 50, the 50 cost us more than the 112 .

When we got to having extra moneys for being on committees, etc., our Council automa tically cost us more money than the 112 did and the people did have less representation. Mr. Speaker, when you consider that there will be 28 councillors and they are going to have to be working in their local commu nities much harder than they did before because there are less councillors in the local com munities, Mr. Speaker, you will find that they are almost in a position of being permanent people as far as the Council is concerned.

Aldermen and cou ncillors are on call 12 months of the year and basically 24 hours of the day. it's not qui te like being an MLA in the City of Winnipeg. I can tell you that my calls as an MLA don't even come near, nowhere near the calls I received as a local cou ncillor, because, as I said, this is the service area of government. Mr. Speaker, that man is going to have to be a person who is going to be better paid if you're going to have people run for that Council. Mr. Speaker, a full-time person in this legislature, which is a Minister, earns in the neighbourhood of $33,000 a year.

Now I admit the Ministers are responsible for the whole province but I assure you that a person that is full-time in the City of Wi nnipeg, and especially those that are going to be on the Executive Council are going to have to be ful l-time men. I don't know where you're going to find ful l-time men for Council at the salaries that we are paying at the present time. I'm not advocating increases in salaries, Mr. Speaker, I'm only saying that to find these men to go full time on the Council is going to be a more costly proposition. So that the 28 council lors will very probably end up costing us more than the 50.

So let's not have any misapprehension that the fact that it's popular to lower the numb er of councillors because the people think there is a saving of money, because it won't happen. lt never has happened. Centralization has 3049

Monday, May 16, 1977 always cost more money and it will continue to cost more money. Mr. Speaker, I don't know why the Minister has really gone to the Taraska Report to say ... I believe it's in that report that says we shou ld have councillors on the basis of electors. Mr.

Speaker, I can't really get too excited whether it's electors or popu lation but I would say that many of the people that the councillor is responsible for are not electors, they are young people that are involved in recreation, they are people that are not of an age to be elected, because we are making services within the communities as far as parks, etc. are concerned. The councillor is responsible for the whole population of an area, not just the electors and I don't think that we can look at it from an elector point of view.

In fact I would like to prefer looking at the bill, as far as the areas that have been presented are concerned, as population because those are the people that are to be served. All the people are to be served. I don't know whether it's just something to make it sound like the cou ncillor will not have to represent too many people but it's there and I don't know why, so we prefer to look at population. Mr. Speaker, I have to bring up at the present time my own area of St.

Ja mes-Assiniboia which has a total po pulation of approximately 75,000 people and our councillors will now be representing approximately 18 ,000 people each. Mr. Speaker, I don't think that a commu nity committee of three anywhere is of any use. I don't think they were of good use while we had the community committees, twelve of them, we had several of them that were just three representatives, one person was away, one person was sick, you don't have a meeting. A commu nity committee with a total of three is pretty well a useless situation especially when they have to represent that large of a popu lation.

I wou Id ask the Minister to consider that from the popu lation point of view in the St. James-Assiniboia area. Mr. Speaker, the rundown of the - we ll gu ess we can call them constituencies - that have been brought forward to us looks as if they will follow the constituencies of the provincial members in the province. That's why I'm not calling them wards. The government looks as if they are going to follow the provincial constituencies. Mr.

Speaker, this government thought that they would take over the city after they unified it with the structure they set up with the ward system and they were badly disappointed. Mr. Speaker, it was very obvious that there was an attempt by the NDP Party at that time to take control of the city. There's no que stion when we take a look at the numb er of city members versus the rural - and I must say that I can't bring the rural into this - but we take a look at the city members and we say, well the NDP hold most of the city seats. Mind you, that's going to change drastically.

But I assure you that they believe that there's their election organization, there's their votes and they will have their organizations ready to go in the City of W nnipeg within these constituencies at the present time. I think one other thing, Mr. Speaker, is that when several of the honourable members from the city on the NDP get knocked off, there they'll be, standing ready to run for the city election. There'll be no que stion about that; their organization will have them ready to go. Mr.

Speaker, they're going to be very badly disappointed because as I said earlier the people of Winnipeg do not want party politics within the City ofW innipeg. They have proven it everyt ime there has been an election in the City of Win nipeg. Mr. Speaker, the honourable members have short memories. Let's go back to the first Unicity election. Mr. Speaker, the members opposite keep saying that there was a group of people who weren't NDP who were a party.

We ll there was a group of people who weren't NDP who decided that they didn't want partisan politics or party politics in the City of Winn ipeg so they had to be other than NDP because the NDP was the only party that wanted it. The honou rable members don't seem to understand that. They got whipped, whipped soundly by people who didn't want party politics. Mr. Speaker, the reduction of councillors cannot work in this city unless the structure is changed. Mr. Speaker, why the Minister gets up and says there's a lot of changes in the structure I'll never know.

He has basically said, l'll letthem set up their own committees. We ll there's nothing wrong with that, they're going to set up basically the same committees as they had before. -I nterjection)- Mr Speaker, I heard the Minister say, we don't know that. No, wedon't knowthat but sincerely hope that they don't start setting up a lot of new committees and having a lot of restructuring at the present time because that, also, is not what will help the operation of the City of Win nipeg. The city councillors will set up their committees, will be able to elect their commissioners, and, Mr.

Speaker, I say right now that the Minister should have eliminated the oar d of Commissioners in this Act without any hesitation whatsoever. There is nothing that a department head cannot do that the Board of Commissioners are doing. You need one person who could be called the manager over the department heads to co-ordinate the facts; that they are not dup licating services with one another. T e Board of Commissioners is an expense that is not necessary in the City of Wi nnipeg. Really, you 've got department heads all through the city and then you have another group of department heads all through the city.

There is absolutely no necessity for the Doard of Commissioners in the operation of the City of Winnipeg and it is also a place where it causes more 3050 .. .... .. ,<

.. ... Monday, May 16, 1977 slowing down. They say the Board of Commissioners are an advisory capacity to the comm ittees. I don't know why the department head can't be the advisory capacity to any committee. The Board of Commissioners is something that is not desirable within the present Act. So, again, the Minister has done really nothing to change the structure from that point of view. People wonder, Mr. Speaker, why the cou ncillors become involved in the administration and try to get involved in the daily operation of the city. We ll, Mr.

Speaker, there are so many things done at the committee stages that the councillors never even get to know about, and they happen within their own commun ities, that they always have to be going along and checking up and finding out what is happening in their own area. They become involved in the everyday operation of the city because the legislation that they are forced to work under, forces them to do so. Mr. Speaker, Council shou ld be referring things to different committees as they are going to be set up by the The committees should be, in turn, considering them and making recommendations to Council.

The Council then will make the decision and the administrative body, made up of the C airmen of those comm ittees, with the administrative people who are the heads of departments, will see that they are carried out. That way you will have councillors working on policy and becoming very involved within what is happening. They will be able to go to one central place to find out what is happening within their constituency. Today the hodge-podge that they have to go through regarding budgets and everything .... Mr. Speaker, let me tell you what happens.

The Ba rd of Commissioners recommend the budget; it comes down to the Community Committees; it goes back to the Committee of Environment, etc.; it then goes back to the Executive Council; it goes back to the Board of Commissioners for more recommendations. If the recommendations are changed it might come back to the Community Committee. And that procedure goes on not only on budgets, Mr. Speaker, it goes on on nearly everything that happens in the city.

There is absolutely no way that the city can continue to operate under that structure whether there are 10 councillors or 10 0 councillors. lt just won't work and it hasn't worked. lt's proven it hasn't worked and the Minister has not come forward with any great changes to the structure that are going to make it work. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there has been a lot said from the honourable members on the other side of the House regarding our convention where we spoke of six areas having six cou ncillors each, h with three of them going onto the immediate Council. lt was a situation that was recommended by different people. lt came from the Public Works districts of the city. That's where it started and that's where the people that made the recommendations at our policy meetings got that particular idea. I'm here to tell you, Mr.

Speaker, that that is not what we are presenting. lt's not a bad idea to have people up front making policy and people back down in the commun ities that will be working on local problems but that is not a necessity to change the situation. What we should be doing, Mr. Speaker, is that we should be eliminating about three-q uarters of this bill, which tells the cou ncillors how they should do their work, and we should be saying in this particula r legislation that the Provincial Government wants the Council to decide what will be decided in the local areas and what will be decided at downtown main meetings.

They are the people that know what the problems are within the local areas. Variations that come within the overall policy, or with the overall planning, can be made to local areas. Building permits could be issued at the local areas if they are to the codes and being built within the area according to the plans that are there.

The fact that the decisions regarding what people want in their area can go downtown and be completely eliminated by councillors who have no interest in it whatsoever is not a desirable thing, and the more that can be done as far as decision-makings at the local community council is desirable because then your counci llors, Mr. Speaker, can truly stand up at the council meetings where they are there to set policy and set policy, because many of the things will be done before they get downtown. But this bi 11 controls the structure of the city completely as to what they can do or what they can't do.

I would just, for the life of me, wonder why, Mr. Spea ker, the Minister of Education, when there are problems out in the school districts of this city or this province, stands up and says, "That is the prerogative of the elected member; that is the prerogative of the school board. I am not going to interfere with the closing of schools or the changing of anything within the school district. That is the prerogative of the elected school tru stees, " is what the Minister of Education says.

Yet this government, as far as the City of Winnip eg is concerned, says, "We are going to control the counci liars of the City of Winnip eg. We wi 11 decide what they will be able to do with in their local areas. The school trustee can decide when he wants to close a school or make it bigger. " The councillors can't do any of that, and they are completely controlled. Mr. Speaker, that is just one of the things that the NDP government is famous for, that they will have a policy in one area and they will say, "W ell, gosh, we've got it here, but it doesn't matter.

We won't have it over here, because that's not the way we want it over here, because we want to control these fellows and that's all there is to it. " Mr. Speaker, the situation of the Minister of Finance having control over the financial situation of 3051

Monday, May 16, 1977 the city is- well, unhealthy, as my colleague said, from one point of view that I will get to -b ut not really that much of a change. The Minister says that he thinks it should be an elected member that takes the responsibility. Mr. Speaker, the Municipal Board is an appointed body, and I don't like to think of the Municipal Board as a body that will do as the government tells them, so therefore I would say if there is going to be a change, you should probably just eliminate the Municipal Board and let the city look at it from the way they are now, let the city decide their financing.

I don't agree with that, so I say keep the Municipal Board . I say keep the Municipal Board because the financial decisions of the City of Wi nnipeg will be made by the government in power sitting here on Broadway, and if that isn't party politics controlling the financing of the City of Wi nnipeg, I don't know what is. l can just see the people of the City of Wi nnipeg coming down and saying, "Mr. Minister, we would like to do this. " And it is possible - and I don't say that this Minister will do that - but it is possible for the Minister to say, "Well ,if you want to do that, you 've got to do this.

In order for me to approve this, you 've got to do something else." Mr. Speaker, it has been happening in this province when we had other Minsters of Finance who dealt with the city, and every time they wanted to do something, they had to give up the park or they had to give up the Auditori um or they had to give up something in order to get finances the way they wanted them to be. Mr.

Speaker, I as sure you that the problem of the trading will be there- will be there - if the Minister of Finance which is the government and Cabinet, the Lieutenant-Governor-in Council and honourable members on the other side, are basically in control of the finances of the City of Wi nnipeg. No criticism from the point of view that the City of Winn ipeg does want to have control over their financial affairs.

And I must say that I think the members of the City of Winn ipeg Council are responsible, but if the City of Brandon, the City of Thompson, and all the other cities and mu nicipalities within this province have to be responsible to a municipal board who takes an overall look at the finances and the loaning and the amount of money being loaned generally by cities and municip alities within this province, why not the City of Wi nnipeg? I am not here to say that they shouldn' t be watched by a group of people to make sur e their spending doesn't go crazy.

You have never heard this side of the House ever say that we wanted a situation that didn't have some control, because we do. But to put it in the hands of the Minister is just going a little bit too far. Mr. Speaker, I don't know why Brandon has to go there. I don't know why Thompson has to go there. I don't know why Portage has to go there. I don't know why all the others have to go there, and not Wi nnipeg. Mr. Speaker, there is another problem today. lt's the fact that cities and mu nicipalities can borrow all over the world. They can walk out and borrow money almost anywhere.

You have to have a place in this province that knows what is going on all over the whole, complete province. The Minister of Finance of any government in power shou ld not be the person in control. There are hearings demanded by the Municipal Board of over $500,000, and

Section 2 is taken out of the Act. The Minister doesn't have to have hearings. He can make the decision he likes. The only thing the Minister has to do is, if he feels like it, he can refer it to the Municipal Board for some recommendations. So really, Mr. Speaker, the change is not that great except that it puts the control of the financing of the City of Wi nnipeg into the hands of the political power on Broadway and that is not a good situation. Mr.

Speaker, I would wonder why the Minister of Urban Affairs, which will be Lieutenant Governor-in-Council and again the government in power at the time, would want control over the planning district of the City of Wi nnipeg. lt didn't take me long to figure it out, because I had just been sitting in the MHRC Estimates and I wondered why they weren't all that worried about the fact that there is only approximately 59 acres, and that's according to the report put out by the Urban Institute of Manitoba.

There certainly aren't more than a hundr ed or so acres that have been bought by MHRC that are within the development plan of the City of Wi nnipeg. Mr. Speaker, I'll make a correction maybe there are 500, because I think it might be in the corner of Fort Ga rry, the 1, 250 acres they own in the Fort Garry area.

I think it might be 500 total. lt's pretty obvious that the helter-skelter spending of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation to buy land anywhere, anytime, regardless of when it can come into production, is the reason why the Minister of Urban Affairs wants to have control over the development plan of the City of Winnip eg. And if he is going to start bringing those pieces of property into production that are not in line with the step-by-step program of the present development plan of the City of Wi nnipeg, if you think we are going to have costs - well, I will just tell you, Mr.

Speaker, you are going to have costs to the City of Wi nnipeg that will be coming out their ears. They won't be able to add it up on a fast adding machine because the putting in of services that are not within the present plan is probably one of the most costly things you can do. But no, the government now has control over the development plan, and strangely enough, a department of goverment has gone out and bought a lot of land that is not presently within the development plan, and the Minister can approve the development. As he says, the city can make it up.

But he can approve it, disapprove it; he can change it. And if the City of Winn ipeg does not go in and do it, and he thinks that there shoul d be some area where it should be done, he can ask them to do it, and if they don't, he can. Talk about controls over elected councillors, over a people that we elect. 3052 • ..

.. .. Monday, May 16, 1977 Here we have a situation where we elect Council and Mayor by the people, who are put in the position of having the fi nances controlled by the party in power on Broadway, the development of the city controlled by the power on Broadway and a set-up where it looks very much as if they're trying to get control of the elected members by what I think is damn close to being gerrymandering as far as the Wards are concerned. -(I nterjection)- Oh, Mr. Speaker, they moan and groan but you know, it's there. If you think it's nonsense, look at it. A MEMBER: Did you read the bill? MR. F.

JOHNST ON: I've read the bill. Mr. Speaker, I can assure you the control that this government is taking over the City of Winn ipeg in those two areas is just something that they should look very closely at. I wish they would talk to the NDP counci llors on Council for one minute. They're starting to be a little qu iet now. Somebody must have put the lid on but I assure you when I've had occasion to have some discussions with two or three of them, they don't like what is happening in this, and I don't know that they'll comment but they certainly weren't happy when they fi rst saw it.

They have even come to realize what the job of a counci llor is and they certainly know that this government doesn't know what the job of a councillor is. And I'm very disappoi nted that the Minister of Finance has even forgotten, from the days that he was on Council, what the job of a councillor is. I'm not going to qu ote from the things that he did say about the importance of local government when he was a mayor, but they're there. They're on the record I believe of 19 70 of Hansard; they were read by somebody.

But the Minister now all of a sudden believes that we can have less councillors and give better service. lt may be possible. lt may be possible providing the counci llors can go downtown and talk about policy and that decisions can be made in the local commun ity areas that refer to that area. You might have something done if he's got a secretary and an executive assistant to take all the calls - and that's costly. Mr. Speaker, the planning procedure of the city. We now have another step which the Minister says is another place for the people to be heard. Mr.

Speaker, I can say to you that there is nothing wrong with the people to be heard, but these decisions on planning and zoning variations, etc. have to be done. lt is going to slow down the process for anybody who comes before a commun ity committee to begin with, to ask for a variation or a zoning change, but you know who it won't slow down the process for, Mr. Speaker? lt won't slow down the process for MHRC. lt won'tslow down the process for any government body, or any government department because, although I believe, Mr.

Speaker, sincerely, that the government years ago or has always had the power to have control over Crown lands that they own within a city or municipality, I think it's there. I think it's there. Wel l, it's back, let's put it that way. Mr. Speaker, I can tell you this, that the MHRC, as I said, is not under that control anymore. The Minister says that it can't be under the control of the city because the programs of the Provincial Government that are going ahead cannot possibly be stopped. Wel l, as I said in the MHRC Estimates, they are going too fast.

They're mixing up their programs to the point where it's really disgusting. They are controlled politically from this House. They're not allowed to be a corporation that is credible within this communit y and they cou ld be. They have good people over there. They are not allowed to become involved as any normal provincial housing corporation is concerned.

They are completely controlled in the purchasing of land from the Land Acq uisition Branch and if you want me to present a report or table it in the House I can table you one that says that the Land Acquisition Branch and the MHRC have been in a battle for years. We also know that the MHRC will be negotiating; I want a piece of property; the Land Acq uisition Branch will come in; it'll take 212 days on an average for them to get it and in the meantime, the land has been purchased by a developer and we have to buy that same land back on the proposal system. That was admitted right in those Estimates.

They could co-operate with everybody in this city and they could get along well if this government would clean up the mess within its own departments and there'd be no need ... But there will be a need because the Minister of Public Works is still a big cry-baby and the Minister of Finance is wiping his tears by saying, "He can do anything he likes in this city." Because he was pouting before, he can build buildings as high as he wants them and nobody cares whether it's a washroom or not over there but he can build whatever he wants anywhere he likes, because the Minister of Finance has given him back his rattle.

Mr. Speaker, the Crown just does not have that right. They shouldn' t have that right. lt shows they're not capable of co-operating with another elected group of people. Mr. Speaker, the one thing that I would say that the bill does ... The Minister of Finance said that he knows that the people of Wi nnipeg want to have their Mayor elected and I don't think that anybody in this Chamber doesn't know that because the people of Winn ipeg have said that. lt's something we do in North America that we don't want to give up.

But if the Minister is aware that the people of Winn ipeg want to have their Mayor elected' he should be aware that they don't want him to be a rubber stamp. I don't say the Mayor should be wandering around telling everybody in the city what to do but he shouldn' t be a rubber stamp. He's allowed to be ex-officio at every committee and you know when the Honou rable Minister of Finance was the Mayor of West Kildonan, he was ex-officio at every 3053

Monday, May 16, 1977 comm ittee lt's nothing new. I don't know of anybody that's ever kicked the Mayor out of a committee meeting yet. So we did a big thing, we made him ex-officio on every committee that he could attend anyway. -(I nterjection)- We ll, it didn't say so in the Act but I know of nobody that kicked him out. Mr. Speaker, the bill does nothing to give local representation or people more authority over their affairs in their local area. lt does absolutely nothing to save the people of Manitoba money.

In fact it could even cost more to run the administration under this basis. lt does absolutely nothing to set the structur e of the City of Winnipeg in such a way that the councillors can rule their own destiny in any way, shape or form. Mr. Speaker, the bill hasn't got hardly any changes in it other than the lowering of the numb er of council lors. it's a window-dressing bill and Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that when we get to Committee we will be making some recommendations, not very big ones but they will be there.

They'll be there in such a way that we would hope that we could make the city work better. - (In terjection)- And the honourable member says we're voting for the bill. I would say to him seriously, wait and see. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Public Works. HONOUR ABLE RUSSELL DO ERN (Eimwood): Mr. Speaker, I listened with some interest to the honourable member but I still conclude that although he may have read the bill, I don't believe that he read the Taraska Report because he failed to make any reference to it.

He failed to refer to any of the recommendations of that Report or demonstrate any apparent concern or knowledge of it. If he stays around I intend to read him one or two paragraphs to see whether or not he is familiar with it. Mr. Speaker, I believe that this legislation can be characterized in a short phrase, namely, reforming the city, and this is really what I would characterize Bill 62 as. I've had a considerable personal interest, like a numb er of members in this Chamber, about Urban Affairs. I have followed the development of the city since 19 66 as a member of the Legislature, since 19 70 as a Minister.

I think one of the first meetings that I attended in the Minister of Finance's office, who was then the Member for St. Johns, concerned the development and the planning of a new City of Winnipeg Act. Since that time I have attended all of the City-Provincial luncheons which are a sort of a monthly liaison meeting. I read the Taraska Report with considerable interest. lt was established as a committee of review for the City of Winnipeg Act and it had three distinguished members on the committee.

First, Peter Taraska, who was a man with considerable public experience, now a Citizenship Court Ju dge, Earl Levin, a former metro planner and a man who has exercised considerable influence in the Metro Corporation and the development, and Allan O'Brien, a professor of political science and a man who was the Mayor of Halifax for a number of years. I think these men are all distinguished in their field and I think that their analysis was very sound . They advertised very broadly.

They invited councillors, MLAs, and civil servants to meet and appear before them and they heard some 87 briefs and 74 oral presentations. Mr. Speaker, the importance of the Taraska Report is as follows: In my opinion, it analysed the shortcomings and weaknesses of the City of Winnipeg and pointed out some of the problems and failures of that present body. I would like to give an example from that report and then deal with those particula r examples in some detail. For example, they pointed out as follows on Page 334. First a paragraph on the achievements of the present City, and secondly the failings.

They said, "The evidence indicated some impressive achievements unrecognized by the spokesman for the Conservative Party. A single Council for the whole of the greater Winnipeg area, a unified admin istration, a single tax base, a unified munici pal services, a formal mechanism for citizen participation in the process of government, and general acceptance of the unification of the city. " We ll, we know that those are the positive achievements of the government legislation.

Now, what about the failings? lt said as follows in the Taraska Report, "But evidence also indicated failings and deficiencies in important areas of the government, a lack of leadership, a lack of accountability,con fusion of roles and responsibilities among the political committees themselves as well as between the politicians and the admin istration, low staff morale, complicated and cum bersome approval processes, a narrow parochialism among the and a neglect of large-scale city-wide policies by the Council." And just another brief example on Page 134. I give a final example.

"The qual ities that are lacking are leadership accountability and policy orientation." They are the qual ities which they say they regard as absolutely fundame ntal to the improvement of the government of the city. And this is what they deal with in the succeeding portions ofthe Taraska Report: responsibility, accessibility, relative autonomy and effectiveness. Mr. Speaker, the recommendations made by the Taraska Report as essentially a modified parliamentary system. I think that there are a numb er of solutions that would fit the problems of the present City of Winnipeg.

The Taraska Report comes up with a particular solution. ! think there are a numb er of solutions and I think that the diagnosis of the committee is correct in terms of the 3054 •

• • • I( '� Monday, May 16, 1977 weaknesses of the presen City of Wi nnipeg but I believe that the prescription that they have made is only one of a number. Bill 62 is an alternative that certainly fits and resolves some of the problems. So what are the failures of the people on Council? Leadersh ip, accou ntability, and policy orientation. The Taraska Report is silent on who is to blame but, Mr. Speaker, I intend to deal with the particula r individuals and the governing body, I think, who have in fact made the City of Winnip eg not function as well as it could.

And they are easy to characterize: the Mayor, Stephen Ju ba, the Deputy Mayor, Bernie Wolfe, and the ICEC majority on Council, which is in effect the government of the City of Wi nnipeg. Mr. Speaker, one can say a lot of things about the Mayor of Wi nnipeg but one cannot accuse him of exercising leadership. That is one characteristic that he does not have. He cannot work with the members on Council and never has worked with the members on Council. He can provide gimmicks but not leadership. He can entertain us with stunts but not leadership and he can bully and threaten people but he cannot lead.

I could give many illustrations of this. I think some of the honourable members recall the famous time the Mayor bu rst into the Hydro Committee and made a tremendous speech to the Premier of the Province saying that you cannot steal or take away our hydro from us. To which the Premier replied, "Well, don't you remember, Mr. Mayor, that we met on this just the other day and we had agreed that there was no particular problem. " Or, we recall of course the time that he came to the Convention Centre opening and annou nced his candidacy and made an attack on the Metropolitan Corporation of Winnip eg.

That was a bit I i ke being invited to somebody's birthday party and then eating the cake. Or, we recall the more recent time when the trucks rolled up to the legislative lawn, came here, all the mosqu ito fogging equi pment, and the Mayor leaped out and had an altercation with the Premier, probably a few days after the decision had been made by the Minister of Mines to permit fogging in the City of Wi nnipeg. Wel l, you know we have also heard the resignations and we have heard the threats and all this sort of stuff but leadership we have never seen.

The only time that the present mayor exercises any leadership is when the issue is already decided, when people have already come up with the majority opinion, and then, as John Galbraith said the other night on television, he said, "You wait until the parade is passing you r door and then you step boldly in front and lead the way. " That's the only time. When the consensus is developed, when it is apparent that the majority of people are going a particu lar way, then somebody steps in and claims that this is the exercise of leadership. We ll, you know, Mr.

Speaker, I think that the people of Winni peg have not been served well by the present encumb ent. He has two achievements that one can relate and one can think of in twenty years in office, one before he became mayor and one after. The only two that I can name, the only two that I can think of, are in 19 57 when the liquo r laws were changed and in 19 67 when the mayor sup ported the Pan-American Games. That's not a very impressive record for twenty years in office. But he wins elections. But you know, Mr. Speaker, don't we all?

There are people in this House who have won elections, two or three or four or five times. There are members in the House who have been here, I su ppose, fifteen and twenty years and there will be a few more of us who will be around for another term which will take us into that illustrious realm. lt is not unco mmon. lt is thought to be uncommon but it is not uncommon for mayors of big cities in Canada to be in office for a very long period of time. lt seems that mayors appear to attract a particular breed of cat. We had Tom Terrific in Vancouver; now we have Art Phillips. We had Hawrelak in Edmonton.

We have Ju ba in Winni peg and Charlotte Wh itton down in Ottawa, and so on. Mayor Drapeau in Montreal. All characters, all hard to beat, all people who apparently have a lot of colour, all people who get re-elected and re-elected and re-elected and re-elected, and I wouldn't doubt, Mr. Speaker, that the present mayor will be mayor of this city until he is about 10 5. I think that he has got at least 40 years to go, and one of the reasons . . . . A MEMBER: What if he runs in Elmwood? MR. DOERN: That's fine with me. He can run anytime. Anytime. I don't care.

I say that he can continue for another 40 years, plus 20, is 60 years, and one of the reasons, one of the reasons is that the amount of effort is almost unnoticeable The amount of hard work, the amount of dedication, the amount of leadership, perseverance - non-existent. Non-existent. The second person, Mr. Speaker, who has failed in his role as the Deputy Mayor, is Bernie Wolfe. And I say that with some regret because here is a man who, up until the present, in the last few years, had probably the most power on council. He certainly had power equal to the Mayor.

He was the representative of the majority party, and yet he did not exercise leadership. He had as an example the fate of one Dick Wa nkling, and the Honou rable Member for St. James will recall those heady days when he was on council, the leadership of Dick Wa nkling and the fact that Dick Wa nkling was dispatched and knocked off politically by the present Mayor. And the whole ICC went into a panic. They were told to dump the Deputy Mayor, they dump ed the Deputy Mayor. lt was just a pure case of political sacrifice. They put in Bernie Wolfe, and Mr. Wolfe unfortunately, has decided to play it safe.

You know, Mr. Speaker, it reminds me of that limerick - I wish I could recite the whole thing about the lady from Niger who smiled as she rode on a tiger. -(Int erjection)- We ll, maybe the 3055

Monday, May 16, 1977 honourable member could give me the rest. And when she came back, something or other happened and the smile was on the face of the tiger. And I think that is Bernie Wolfe riding the present Mayor, except the Mayor has eaten him up. The Mayor has his smile on his face, and unfortunately the Deputy Mayor is being digested. The present Deputy Mayor is a man of considerable strengths and considerable weaknesses, but unfortunately, he has failed to exercise any leadership on council. And now, Mr. Speaker, 1 would like to deal with my favourite group, the ICEC.

And I would like to deal as well with the myth of the busine ssman-politician. You know, only businessmen, people who are oriented toward busi ness like the Member for River Heights and some of the businessmen farmers that sit on the benches of the Conservative Party, all these men love free enterprise. They all bolster free enterprise. They all feel that they are the only people who can run this province. You know, that's very similar to the way the Liberals used to be in Ottawa.

All of us in this House, I am sure, with the exception of the few Liberals, have for years spent our time condemning the federal Liberals for thei r arrogance and their belief that they have divine right to rule Canada. Wel l, you know, Mr. Speaker, the same thing affects or infects the Conserva�ive Party of_ Manit�ba. They really don't believe, they can't imagine, a bunch of New Democrats runnmg the provmce. ltjust isn't right, Mr. Speaker, it doesn't sound right. lt doesn't feel right. They are the true heirs; they are the governors of this province. -(l nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to read one more qu otation, and this is from the Rea Report, which is very highly praised in the Taraska Committee's Report. lt was a study of voting patterns in the City of Wi nnipeg, I guess in the past 57 years. And I just received it, unfortu nately, a few days ago. I happen to know Professor Rea. I think he is one of the best professors or research people in Manitoba. He is, I think, very sound in his research, and he has produced this report.

I haven't really had the time to read more than a few pages, but I read the prime conclusions from the report, a one paragraph conclusion on Page 23 on the performance of the Wi nnipeg councils over the past 57 years. And it is as follows: lt should be obvious from the evidence included in the appendices that no credit whatsoever should be given to the Citizens' denial (meaning the Citizens' groups, ICEC, etc.). We should give no credit whatsoever to their denial that they are a political party. They deny it. In fact a disciplined party situation has existed and functioned in Winni peg since 19 19 .

The report has attempted to indicate as well that hypocrisy has not been the only result, but that several serious disadvantages have also ensued. The Citizens have been enormously su ccessful, never losing control of Winn ipeg City Council in the past 57 years, but control also implies responsibility, and it seems to have been evaded. The result has been not effective leadership, but as the rollcall vote makes clear, interest protection. here is nothing wrong with this situation per se, if the electorate has been able to assign group responsibility and judge accordingly.

And the final sentence: The clearest charge against the Citizens (this particula r group) has been thei r failure to acknowledge the political responsibility which their position of power surely entails. We ll, that is the problem, Mr. Speaker. And I say that when we look at the performance of these honourable gentlemen opposite and their little brothers and sisters on city counci l, when we look at their performance, what have they produced? They have produced some monumental failures in the sense that they pose as businessmen and adm inistrators first, and then secondly, they are hu manitarians.

The New Democrats regard themselves as hu manitarians first, and secondly, busi nessmen and administrators. But you know, I think if you look at the record, I think that we have done, first of all, without question, more in the realm of hu manitarian things and social legislation, but we have done just as well, if not better, in the administration of the affairs of this province. I don't think we can match the kind of projects that have been put on the table by the honou rable members opposite. They have brought us CFI.

Their colleagues have given us Trizec and proposals typified by this new arena proposal, the new Wi nnipeg arena proposal. And you know, Mr. Speaker, they are suckers for that kind of thing, and this is what I find very distu rbing. Some businessman comes to city council a few months ago and says that he is going to bu ild, for the people of Wi nnipeg, a brand new arena worth $15 million, free. He is going to give itto them free. This is a present. There are no strings attached. He is going to present the people of Winni peg with a free $15 million arena.

And the members on council, who are Liberals and Conservatives disgu ised as ICEC members, they are all excited because they say, "Wow! This is just terrific. We won't have to raise taxes, you see. We won't have to go to the borrowing places and borrow the money. We won't have to raise the mill rate. We won't have to be worried about anything. We are going to get a free present. " Then this individual tells them what's involved and they are still interested, Mr. Speaker. They are still keen.

All that is required is as follows: free land worth hundr eds of thousands or millions; no taxes forever, worth a half a million to three-quarters of a million a year; possibly a loan if they can wangle 3056 • • • I 4' j

Monday, May 16 , 1977 the Pro vincial Gove rnment's Mu nicipal Fund loan - they might thr ow seven-and-a-half milli on bucks into the pot, says the Mayor; and a few other concessions as well. Well, you know, Mr . Speaker, is that what you call a free arena? Gi ve a millio n or so in land? Provide half a mil li on to three-quarters of a mi llio n forever? If it costs fifteen mil lion bucks and it is a half a milli on a year in taxes, in thirt y years it will have been paid for. And then possibly a oan, and then com plete control to an individual, and a non-profit corporation. Boy, Mr.

Speaker, you can be sure of one thing, if you want a non-irofit corporation running it, you're goin g to get a non-profit corporation running it. And it is goin g to sound all too much lik e Kasser and Reiser who came to the gentlemen opposite and they were going to build them a pulp mill, they were going to do them a big favo ur. Well, unfortunately there are management fees, and unfortunately there are annual salaries and expense accounts that one can dr aw on, but a free arena, who could believe that?

And these are the hard-no sed busi nessmen, the men of the world, the real ists, the guys who look at the bottom li ne, the people aho look at the ledger. Figur es don't lie. They are the people who have been running council for 57 years. But you know there are weaknesses in people who have a busi ness background. For example, I think some people - and look, I wit admit as well there are weaknesses in every profession - but the myth that I am attacking is that the businessman is the best political leader.

And I say that these are some of the weaknesses, that a person may lack the broader view, they may not have a knowledge of economics. They may lack political savvy and they may not know or not be moti vated by what is best for the publi c interest or what is best in the public interest, and that is ultima tely what counts. And that is, I think, a test on which some of the mem bers opposite and some of their colleag ues fai l.

So they have frequently made bad business deals or poor business deals and they frequently, I say, without ceasing, without cessation, have made excessive concessions and excessive grants to busi nessmen. We saw that in CFI, we saw that in Trizec, and we see this in the Golden arena proposal. I think that the record, Mr. Speaker, speaks for itself. You know, Mr. Speaker, a couple of years ago, I did an analysis, a personal analysis, of what it is that . . . . · A MEMBER: What did you find out about your self? MR. DOERN: I wasn't incl uded in the analysis. A MEM BER: Any weaknesses, Russell? MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I studied my colle agues, the colle agues in my government, the ones that I thought were the most capable, people who had somehow or other the greatest political abi li ty. And I tried to determine whether it was education or what background it was that somehow or other made them the best of this particular group. MR. SPE AKER: Order please. MR. DOERN: I did n't study the members opposit e. That was more than I could bear, Mr. Speaker. I leave that to some other historian on the other side.

I would say this, when you a:nalyze people who have the gr eatest political experience, I come to the following factors. And I will give you one factor in the end, but it seems that first of all they have long experience, secondly they have high lOs and third, they are ded icated. And that is about as far as you can go, because you can't make any correlation between education and outstanding public service. There are people who have probably Grade 5 who are very good and people with PhDs who are very good, but you can't corr elate it. A MEMBER: What had you fig ured for the Member for Radisso n? MR. DO ERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would love to give you an analysis of the Member for Radisson . . . A MEMBE R: Don't get mean. MR. DO ERN: ... but si nce he is not present, I wouldn't risk it. I always feel somewhat endangered when I critic ize my colle ague because I feel that I may be beaten up later on. MR. DO ERN: The one thing, Mr. Speaker, that I deduce, and this is my own observa tion, and it is lik e a tautology or it's an analytic statement, and it's as fol lows: The best politicians have the most pol itical experience. Now how they got it . . . MR. SPE AKER: Order please. MR.

DO ERN: .. . how they got re-elected, how they were able to keep persuading people, that is not being answered. But I tell you that if you look at the people with the most abil ity in the House, it seems that you can correlate that al most dir ectly wit the most political experience. Now t ere are exceptions.

I am not going to name the exceptions on the Tory benches, but I just want to say that in general, if you look at the most capable parliamentarians, the pe pie who are the most effective representatives and the people who have been re-elected, who will be re-elected, they somehow or other seem to be the ones with the most experience, and it just breeds more and more and more success. Mr. Speaker, there is no substitute for pol itical experience, whether you have been in business, whether you are a grad uate of the universities, it doesn't matter what.

The most imp ortant thing seems to be to get elected and then it seems that that will stand you in good stead for further success in the field. 3057

Monday, May 16, 1977 The ICE C, Mr. Speaker, posing, like its predecessors for 57 years, as an independent citizens' organization .. . You know, here are a bunch of people, one day they are Liberals and Conservatives, and when they run for the election, they are independent. The day after the election, they are working as Liberals and Conservatives. They are running ag ainst us in the provincial elections. They are working and campaigning in federal elections. But they are both, you know, they are independentS and they are Liberals and they are Conservatives. You know, Mr.

Speaker, I have a phrase for those people, political drag qu eens. They wear their political drag on occasion when they want to bamboozle the pub lic, and they try to sell the public on this notion that they are independent. Wel l, we can see some of these independents. We have got a couple of these independents right here. We have three of them. The Member for St. James, he was an independent who saw the Tory light. The Member for Wolseley, he saw the Tory light. The fact that he was a Tory before didn't matter.

The fact that he was a Tory on Council didn't matter, but he came out and suddenly became a member of the Conservative Party. Of course none of us have been fooled by this, but a few people are fooled. A few people are fooled by this. But the problem, Mr. Speaker, is that I think there has been a failure to lead by this group. This is the group, if you want to point the finger of blame at where the failures on Council are, 1 have already said so, the present Mayor, the present Deputy Mayor, and the majority party. You want to know what's wrong with Council? Go and talk to those people.

They have provided the government; they are the government of this city. The failures of this city should be laid at their doorstep. They can't run the city. lt's the same bunch who have run this province frequently into the ground and it's the same bunch who have run this country for 11 0 years in effect. What do the Tories come up with? What is their solution? We've put down our solution, Mr. Speaker, it's in legislation. Let the Conservatives vote against it and let them cam paign against it. I would really challenge them to do that.

I would like nothing better than for them to go before the people of this province and say, "We're dead against this legislation and we're goinr with the Conservative legislation, and here's t e Conservative legislation: the reintroduction of a metro type of government. " Boy! Now there's the best brains that we have, sitting across from us. Robert Matas, Tribune Legislative Reporter, headline: "Tory policies indicate shift." And another

article ... Hey, here's a really funny one on the same one, a really funny headline written by Mr. Matas -I don't know if he wrote the headline - "Lyon exhorts Tories to keep in tune with the times. " Wel l, they're listening to a very peculiar tune. They're hearing the old refrain "Let's go back to metro. " Remember the good old days, Mr. Bonnycastle, Roblin's baby. -(l nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. ORDE R. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, it's unfortunate that the member interrupts me because he was actually helping me at that point in time. But those were the days, you will recall, Duff's abandoned baby.

Now these people are coming to claim him, this little illegitimate child of metro which they abandoned for all t ese years, they want to own up. They want to claim parentage at this point in time. Duff didn't. The ex-premier, Waiter Weir did n't but this par ty, under the Honour able Sterl ing Lyon, he's going to go full-steam beh ind, back to metro, back to the good old days. Because, I believe, Mr. Speaker, that they don't want, they really don't want a strong city.

They are probably afraid of a strong City of Wi nnipeg, and I have never been afraid of a strong City of Wi nnipeg because I believe that if Winnip eg is strong that the province will be strong and I think that that is the correct assess men of the situation. We ll, Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of minutes left but I would like to just say this in conclusion. I believe that this particular bill is an improvement, a significant improvement over the iast. There are fewer restrictions in this bill, although some honourable members don't appear t think so. I think there are fewer restrictions on Council.

We have taken a number of these things out of the bill. We have also reduced the size of council, which I believe is unwieldy under the present system. Under the original system you could have had a council of 50, under a modified parliamentary form, just as we have no problems whatsoever in this House - sounds like qu ite a statement - in terms of functioning because of 57 members. That is not a problem and never has been in this House. Simi lary, in Ottawa there is not a problem in terms of function with 265 members.

But when y u have a parliamentary system, you can have those numb ers or 630 whatever the precise numb er is in Great Britain. lt works with larger numbers, but it doesn't work when you have a different system. So because the mayor is el ected directly that kind of a system only goes well with a smaller council. I think that what we should all do now is to closely observe the futur e performance of the Mayor, the Deputy-Mayor and the majority party, in this new improved version.

There is no doubt that the system can work and I think this is also the best system that we can provide at this time, given the nature of the cou ncil, given the evolution over the past period of time, given the political realities of our day. And if people are still satisfied, if they are still satisfied several years from now, there are really only two options left. One is to vote in new blood, new leadership, a new majorits party. That is one solution. The second one is to go to the parliamentary form of government. Those are the two alternatives before us.

Our concern is to provide the best possible government that we can at this 3058 •

• . .... • Monday, May 16, 1977 particula r point in time. lt's not a case of the poor Mayor, we've made some changes in his portfolio, or the poor Deputy-Mayor, we've made some changes in his title and in his function or the poor counci l, Mr. Speaker, we have slashed the council in half. Wel l, I don't think that this should be our concern. Our concern is to provide an effective government structure for the citizens of Winnipeg and its su ccess or failure will be in the hands of the ele cted representatives on council. Mr. Speaker, I recommend this legislation to the House. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I did not intend to speak but I cannot let the remarks of the Minister of Public Works go unchal lenged. I am somewhat su rprised and in fact can't believe some of his remarks that he brought to this House this morning. Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the Minister of Public Works ... lt is almost certain that he will not be the CKABINE T Minister after the next elecion, not because he may be defeated but because maybe there'll be new blood in the government side and he may not be so fortunate to have the First Minister appoint him to that position. Or secondly, he must have already started his battleground and started his campaign in the contest to challenge the present mayor for the Nayor of the City of Winnipeg. Perhaps that's what we heard this morning and I'm sure that's wha we heard because, Mr.

Speaker, we certainly heard the arrogance of the Minister of the strong criticism. In fact I couldn't be believe it, the vicious attack on the present Council ofthe City of Winnipeg, on the ICE C members. lt was a blanket charge of everybody. I just cannot accept those charges, Mr. Speaker, because -(I nterjection)- Yes I did. Yes I did. Because Mr. Speaker, I believe that the present Council under the circumstances, under the present legislation, have done a good job in the last few years or tried to do a good job in the last few years. In fact, I'm sure if you check, Mr.

Speaker, with some of the other members ... I'm sure the Member for St. Johns did not accept the words of the Minister of Public Works. I'm sure the Minister of Finance would not accept them because you cannot lay a blanket charge against everyone. Surely he could have been debating the things that the Council have not done, what the problems were, but to lay a blanket charge that the whole problem was because of the members of Council, I think it's not fair. I know he blamed the Mayor for lack of leadership - I'm not going to dispute that, if he's right or wrong - a lack of accountability.

I will agree maybe there is a lack of accounta bility but that's the legislation's problem and legislation's fault, Mr. Speaker. He talked about the Mayor being twenty years in office and accomplished nothing. Well perhaps it is a good start for a good battleground for a good debate in the coming election for the Mayor of the City and maybe the Minister of Public Works wants to have that opportunity. ! would like to indicate to the Minister that the Mayor had as great a supp ort in River Heights and Tuxedo, in St.

Jame s Assiniboia, four to one against running against somebody else, as he had in supp ort in his own area, in his own backwoods of the city, the norh end or where he lives. So his supp ort was general throughout the whole city. So, Mr. Speaker, I cannot accept the vicious attack on the whole Council. If he wanted to raise some members of Council who are not doing their job, that's fine. That would have been fair.

His debate would have been fair, but to make an attack on the whole Council that he did, I think it's not fair, it's not right, because, under the circu mstances, I think the Council have done a pretty good job because it was a big job to do. There was a great change in legislation. We've changed from a 13 municip ality; a 13 city concept to one city. There had to be a reduction in personnel, there were many changes. You had changes that had to be brought about and a lot oftime was spent in that area and the Minister should realize that. Mr.

Speaker, perhaps I can leave that alone and maybe go to some other areas of the legislation that we are concerned with, that we should be confronted with and that's the unicity concept of government. I'm sure that all the members in this House are aware that Bill 56, when it was before this House a few years ago, I took a very strong position against it at that time. I felt qui te strongly because in the City of St. Jame s-Assiniboia we were a pretty low taxed area. We were receiving services probably much better and in a more efficient manner than many other parts of the City of Winnipeg.

All you had to do ... only in the matter of a few years when some residences had their property tax tripled , well no wonder .... So that was my feeling at that time. But I think we have to deal with reality and deal with what is before us today and we have the one city concept. We have a unicity concept and we can't dismantle that, we can't go back to say, be it thirteen cities or whatever we had before.

Perhaps the people that were selling the one-city, the unicity concept, was that it would provide an equal or a shared tax base for the provision of all the people of this city and I think that was one strong point. So at the present time we cannot go back to dismantle what we have, I think the costs would be too great and even then we still wouldn't have a system because there would have to be changes. I would also agree, Mr. Speaker, that the concept should designed that the elected officials, the civil servants understand their respective functions, what is su pposed to happen, what they are su pposed to do.

Even with the changes that we have I don't believe that this will take place. I think that the government or the urban government must be designed in such a way, Mr. Speaker, that would maximize citizens' involvement. I don't know if this will happen. I think that it would be, again, 3059

Monday, May 16, 1977 resionsive to citizens for information and to ask for improvements for the local residents. I don't know if this will take place. I know that the Minister of Public Works mentioned one thing and he said one of the recommendations in the Taraska Report was a parliamentary system. l would have been happy to see if we would have moved in that direction but I don't really believe that we've moved in that direction, Mr. Speaker.

Surely the experie nce from some other municipalities or other cities should have indicated to the Minister and to the government and probably demonstrated that the strong mayor system is essential for a successful government. What has happened here in fact is I think that some of the powers have been removed from the mayor and I am concerned.

When the Minister of Public Works says he should be accounta ble, I would like to see that the mayor should be responsible for budge ts; he should be responsible for policy initiatives; he should be responsible for administration and that should be his platform and that's what he should run and that should be his responsibility. If he doesn't perform in four years he'll be out pretty qui ckly. In those areas he should have the responsibility in some form of a parliamentary system and he's got to be accountable.

If he's not accountable and if he doesn't perform very qui ckly, very quic kly he won't be in that position in the matter of one election. So I say give him those responsibilities and we'll find out pretty qu ickly through that method, through that system so that people will know who is responsible, what is happening in the system. At the present time we don't, Mr. Speaker. I do believe that some of the changes in the bill will be beneficial. Reduction of city council from 50 to 28 I think is beneficial.

I know in my own constituency I had a survey and the return in the su rvey was around 20 percent which is pretty high in any kind of a survey. One ofthe que stions was, should the council be reduced from 50, should it be what the Taraska Report recommended, 39, or should it be further reduced? I would say 90 percent of the people indicated it should be further reduced and they put somewhere between 25 and 30. That was what most of them put. So 28 members is somewhere what my constituents indicated. I would also indicate the Memberfor Sturgeon Creek had a good point.

The council is responsible for services and they get the calls of any little problem that happens in the constituency or in their area. They get the calls, perhaps more than even the elected members here. But not only will those council lors be responsible to 14 ,000 or 15 ,000 electors, they will be responsible to 25,000 people, so it is getting pretty large. lt is getting almost identical to what each member will have to have here. So in that respect I don't know what pressure will be put on each councillor.

The other point is that, in areas where the Council will still have to meet, what happens if one counci llor is not there? What is going to be the quorum? Should it still be three, the full three? So there will be some problems to iron out. However I cannot argue, I will accept that there should have been reduction. I, as well, accept that reduction from the twelve community committees to six, I believe, which was recommended by the legislation, and I believe that is in the right direction as well.

I believe elimination of the statutory set-up and freedom for the city to elect its own committee organizations, I accept that as well. I think it's in the right direction, but certainly the legislation does not go far enough. To say that it is some form of parliamentary system to make the council and to make the mayor more accountable, it does not go far enough, Mr. Speaker. 1 am as well, I believe, concerned where the legislation allows to make a councillor run for council and mayor at the same time. Now I wish to ask the Minister what happens if he gets elected as a councillor and also as a major?

Does he have to step down from his council seat, and will there be a by-election or what happens, or will there be an election in that council seat? The legislation is not clear and 1 wonder if it is proper and if it is perhaps in the interest of the council. 1 know that some councillors accept it, qu ite favourably to it, the others were qu ite against it, so I have difficulty to see how that provision, how that mechanism will work, Mr.

Speaker. 1 am really concerned that the point that is in the legislation that will exempt the Provincial Government from the city plans and by-laws in respect to billing and so on. I believe it's in the wrong direction. -(In terjection)- We ll, I don't know. We're not debating the federal legislation at the present time. 1 don't know if the federal legislation has to apply to the city by-laws or not. I don't know.

So the Minister of Mines and Natural Resou rces says, "No, it doesn't." Now 1 know the government likes to take the position that because we couldn't get some of the zoning passed through for our housing legis lation it was the total fau lt of the city council and that's why we don't want it to apply to the Provincial Government.

And in fact the Chairman of the Environmental Committee of the City of Winnipeg has indicated that any legislation for the MHRC that has been before council in fact they have put the legislation through pretty qu ickly while they have laid aside all the others and tried to provide for a speedy passage for the government, or for any government agency. . . . We ll, the Minister of Mines says it's not so. I've heard from the c1ty councillors on the bylme shows 3060 .. I l>l

• • .. Monday, May 16, 1977 indicating that it was so. Perhaps the Minister of Finance can indicate and give us some specific areas that they had to wait for years. But I don't believe that it makes for good planning. -(l nterjection) We ll, I'll agree; yes, other agencies as well.

I don't think it will make for good planning and this is an area that I believe, again, unless the Minister can demo nstrate why the necessity to exempt the Provincial Government, perhaps he can convince me but at the present time he has not convinced me and I'm really concerned because it certainly doesn't make for good planning of the City of Winnip eg, Mr. Speaker. So I am concerned. I believe, as well, it's questionable dealing with the mayor's role as well. I have indicated already that I believe that the mayor should be responsible for the budge t.

He should be responsible for the policy initiatives and administration. Make it a form of a parliamentary system where you'll have debate take place in council, there will be some councillors supp orting his position asking for amend ments and changes. Perhaps there will be some cou ncillors against which will be criticizing, which will only create I think a good parliamentary system.

People will know what's taking place and they can assess it as to what counci llor is doing a good job, where the councillors stand, what position they take because at the present time nobody knows even if the councillors are present on many important issues that are before the council. So, again, I am concerned that the functions of the mayor shou ld not only be for ceremonial activities. I think they should be expanded.

Make him accountable and in a very short time, in a matter of a few years, citizens of the city can assess if he's performing, if he's accountable, and can replace the mayor through a referendum instead of making the mayor strictly a ceremonial official of the city, Mr. Speaker. The other point I am as well concerned with - the amend ments would give the Finance Minister I believe final decision in respect to capital borrowing by-laws removing it from the Municipal Board.

I feel that this is unnecessary, again, because on every by-law and every matter, perhaps the council will have to deal with government, with the Minister of Finance. Again, I feel that this is unnecessary and I think it's a bad piece of legislation putting it in the legislation. So these are a few of the points that I want to make at this time. I wish to indicate I did not intend to speak. In fact, I have looked at the bill qu ite briefly and knew whatthe amendme ntswere but perhaps they requir e some more study but I couldn't let the remarks of the Minister of Public Works go unchalle nged.

I'm sure that he wasn't speaking for the whole government; if he was then I hope that the Minister of Finance would indicate so to us and I'm sure that even the Member for St. Johns did not accept all the words of the Minis ter of Public Works. I wish to indicate, again, that under the circu mstances in a transition period for a four-year period, the council had a pretty difficult time bringing all the changes about and perhaps worked qu ite hard to do that. And to have a Minister get up in this House and say, "The council did nothing.

They were no good, " it's just a blanket charge that should not be acceptable, Mr. Speaker. So these are some of the points that I wish to point out to the members of the House as I indicate again my position. When Bill 36 was the first time before this House -t he original bill- 1 took a very strong position against it. Today we have a unicity concept of government for the City of Winnip eg. We cannot dismantle it; we cannot break it down so the only thing we can do is to make it better and make it more efficient.

S the poi nts that I have brought before the House I hope would be given consideration by the Minister of Finance and by the government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. WARREN STEEN: Mr. Speaker, I'll take a few moments at this time and comment on the bill to amend he City of Winni peg Act, as well as to make a few comments regarding the Minister of Public Works' statements. The Minister of Public Works tried to bring forward two points.

One is that this bill is going to create more freedom for the City of Wi nnipeg, which I dispute, and the other one that he spent many moments labou ring on was the lack of leadership shown by His Worsh ip, Mayor Stephen Jub a, Deputy Mayor Bernie Wolfe, and the majority group at city counci l, the ICEC. I would say, Mr. Speaker, on that point I disagree with the Minister as well. As far as the bill is concerned, I welcome the reduction in the numb er of counci llors.

I think that having served on the council with 50, it was an unwieldly council and it did not act in a parliamentary procedure and therefore it made it even more difficult to operate with 50 councillors plus a mayor at one time.

The only way, in my opinion, that the 50-person cou ncil could have worked was rather than sitting every second Wednesday night, the second and the fourth of each month or the first and third, whichever the case might have been, that they would agree to meet for two or three days solid each month and go through the business of the various committees. -( Interjection)- The Minister of Mines and Resources says that he had suggested that.

The mayor of the city, Mayor Jub a, also suggested it on numerous occasions but many persons who belonged to the NDP group at city cou ncil were the persons that were most strongly opposed to such a concept. hey said that a city council should operate in the evenings where the majority of the persons in the public could go down· and see them in operation, and follow their business dealings with great interest. 3061

Monday, May 16, 1977 Bu what happened and I can cite you an example, Mr. Deputy Speaker, at this moment, was that one of the first pieces f business that came before the new City of Wi nniieg was the Convention Centre. At that time the council was operating under temporary quar ters in the Administration Building and on that particula r evening there were 49 councillors present and each counci llor is permitted to speak for five minutes unless he or she is granted an extension.

On that particular nirht, 48 of the 49 councillors present spoke on that piece of busi ness, that one item, and it took over fou r hours to get through with that particular piece of busi ness. Then there was an amendment put into it and the matter came back before cou ncil two weeks later and at that time over 36 speakers again spoke on the matter. Now if the council was operating in the morning, afternoon and night, much as this Legislature does, we would have eliminated a lot of those persons who wanted to make those second and third speeches on a particular subject.

In my opinion, that would have been the only way the 50-person council could have operated in an effective manner. But, by having council meetings under the present form, it did not operate effectively. The matter was spoken on this morning about the Commun ity Committees. The Member for Sturgeon Creek and the Member for Assiniboia mentioned the weakness of the Co mmunity Committee of three, which they will have out in the St. James-Assiniboia area.

I hapien to have had fou r years experience on a Community Committee of t ree. l can tell you that when a councillor, one of the three, is absent, du e to illness or due to holidays, it's very very difficult for two to operate, particularly if the two of them have opposing views on a particular item of busi ness that is before that Commu nity Committee, or particula rly when public delegations came before them.

The delegation might have been working very closely with one of the two councillors, yet the other counci llor who is present could be directly opposed t the requests of that delegation and what we end up having is a stalemate. No decision is really made that particula r evening and the matter is either referred to a senior committee of council or to council. Therefore, the decision is not really made at the local level.

For years counci llors, whether it be through the Canadian Federation of Mayors Association and through the Urban Association in Manitoba, have been asking for greater powers to operate at the local level with the opini n that the cou ncillor is the person who is admin istrating the services that you and ji come in contact most often with, particu larly in response to our family, and our family needs, our home and our pieces of property. They look after the services that we see day in and day out.

Therefore, the Member for Sturgeon Creek mentioned that in his days as a councillor that he received numerous calls compared to his days as an MLA and I have said this both last year and again this year in this Legislature, that the numb er of requests and telephone calls, complaints, requests for assistance that a councillor receives far outweigh what an urban member of the Manitoba Legislature receives.

I'm led to believe, by rural members of the Legislature, that the reverse situation is the case as far as they're concerned; that many persons in the rural commun ities know their MLA far better than they do the village counci llor and so on. But in the large metropolitan, urban areas such as the City of Winnip eg the councillors are known to the people and do get the bulk of the work.

So I would hope that this par ticular government would do something that I felt was a great weakness in the previous council's Act, and that was they previously set the indemnities, back in 19 71 for the councillors then, at $5,700.00. How this was arrived at, I don't know. Maybe it was 57 MLAs times $10 0 and that's how they arrived at that figure. But they did say in the Act, if the councillors deem it necessary to have a greater sum, in the way of an indemnity, they do have the power to increase it and to pay committee allowances.

I think that this Legislature should take the responsibility and we should set the indemnities for the counci llors. I think that they should be at least the equivalent amount to what an MLA gets, in the was of an indemnity. I also like the way that the MLA indem nity is set where it's tied to the cost of living.

I think we should set the cou ncillors' indemn ity and tie it to the cost of living factor. -(Int erjection)- We ll, the Provincial Government is the creator of the urban government and I think we should give them a decent start in the way of indemnity because they are going to have to work twelve months of the year, almost at the same pace that we are working in this Legislature as MLAs for five months of the year. -(l nterjection)- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I'm just interested in whether the honourable member doesn't feel that they should be, firstly, most capable of deciding their remuneration and, secondly, would that not be a greater responsibility that those who fix the salary are the ones aho are responsible to the electorate? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Well I would answer that with a que stion, and ask why, back in 19 71 , did this government at that time set the indemnity? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for St. Joh ns. MR. CHERNIACK: Again, in a que stion form.

Would it no have been the logical thing to start them out with something so that they know that they had a beginning, which would be a basis for further consideration, since there was no other way of establishing a salary until after they were eleced? 3062 • -

• .. .. .. ... Monday, May 16, 1977 MR. DEIU TY SPEAKER: The Honourabe Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, the Member for St. Johns is correct when he says that we should start them out wit something and I would agree that this time we should start them out with something in the neighbour hood of an equivalent amount that an MLA receives so that they at least get off to a decent start and get paid a proper indemnity for the many hours that they will be working at City Hall.

But that is not an item in the bill; it's an item that I think should be in the bill and we can debate that further at a futu re time. Th� Minister of Public Works, in his statement has said that what we're trying to do is give the counc1l more power. Yet on the other hand, for capital borrowings, the Minister of Finance is the almighty person. And on planning matters and the expansion to the City of Winnip eg, the Minister of Urban Affairs is the almighty person. So really I don't believe that this government is giving the City more power.

They're perhaps streamlining the Act but, at the same time, they are making two Ministers of the government - in this particular case it happens to be the same person but that may not always be the case - they are giving two Ministers the full power to control the finances of the City of Winnip eg in the way of growth, and to control the City of Winnip eg as to its Planning Act. Therefore I say there is nothing left for the City to do and perhaps this is why we'll only need 28 council lors.

Because all they are going to have to do is control the services such as the garbage pickup, the flooding of the rinks, the parks and so n. There is going to be very, very little left for the City in the way of growth plans, and so on. Mr. Speaker, I permitted the Member for St. Johns two questions. Perhaps, if I could finish before 20 or 25 after, the Minister of Mines and Resou rces can ask a question; I am always pleased to answer. I have said that the Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker, has too much control.

I believe that in the past the Municipal Board, although it was a politically-appointed board, in many cases was a very good board because all parties t at were appointing persons to such a board usually looked for persons of experience. The Municipal Board in the past has usually had some former municipal counci llors with great experience who, in my opinion, added muc h to the decision-naking of that board. Also by having the Municipal Board in existence, even to ugh they were appointed by the Minister of Municipal Affairs, they were still an arm's length removed from the provincial government of the day.

I believe that's an important factor. I think that by having that additional experience plus having that board an arm's length away from the provincial government, regardless who is the provincial government of the day, I think is a most worthwhile committee to review the finances of any municipality or any urban government. As the Member for Sturgeon Creek mentioned in his remarks, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Urban Affairs, who has control over the growth of he City of Wi nnipeg, and he made some reference to this particular government owning vast acreages of land within the City of Winnipeg for futu re development, particularly development of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, from experience and when I was a councillor I had a number of occasions to meet with either the Minister of Urban Affairs or the Deputy Minister regarding the acceptance of Manitoba Housing and Renewal projects within our commun ity committee area.

Generally people have a reluctance to accepting projects that are promoted by the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and councillors must treat these items with kid gloves and a real educa tional process is needed so that we can have such developments come on stream.

I believe all members of this Legislative Assembly do believe that there is a need for Manitoba Housing and jrenewal Corporation, for low income housi ng, but they want to see it well planned, they want to see it in smaller units rather than 10 0 to 15 0-unit sizes and prefer to see smaller units of housing so that the people can blend in with the commun its, On hat very point, I would once again like to point out an example that I have seen, where the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation has operated. In the Tuxedo-River Heights area, for example, Carpathia Elementary School has approximately 500 students.

There are one-third from the general River Heights neighbourhood, onehird from the military base and one-third from the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. So in each case there are about 16 0 students from each of the th ree sectors and there are too many students in each group to blend in with the second and third group.

If a youngster comes from the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation project, that boy or girl can usuall y find another student in the same age group, likely in the same grade, who comes from the same complex to chum with, rather than mixing with the you ngster who comes from the military family or the you ngster who grew up in the general neighbour hood, the normal neighbourhood. This, in my opinion, has always been a classic example of the weakness of having a large Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation project in any one given area. As I said a moment ago, Mr.

Speaker, there seems to be a great reluctance on the part of the general popu lation in accepting Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation in their particular community. So therefore, if the Provincial Government has great acreage set aside in Winnip eg for futur e projects, and the Minister of Urban Affairs has the last say as to where and how these projects will proceed, therefore what they have virtually done, is taken the controls away from the citizens at 3063

Monday, May 16, 1977 large and the councillors. I can foresee in the futur e some vast problems in this particular area.

The Minister of Public Works, in his remarks - and I see he is back in his chair- he mentioned that what Winni peg has really lacked the most in the past four or five years , there's been a mayor without leadership, a deputy mayor who is tolerating the existing mayor but really disapproves of most things that the present mayor does but he is tolerating him and not fighting him as the case was with the former deputy mayor and therefore we don't have leadership from the deputy mayor; and a council that is controlled by the ICE C which is primarily a co uncil which is representative of the businessmen of the community and therefore it is not always the best person who is serving on that council.

He also mentioned, in the case of the mayor, or in the case of any politician, that a politician must have three requirements. He must be a person of above-normal I. Q.; he must be a person with a record of experience and he must be a person who is dedic ated. I really think what he was trying o do was to describe Mayor Step hen Jub a because if anybody in this Chamber doesn't believe that Mayor Stephen Jub a has an above-average I. Q., I think that person has not met the mayor yet. Experience, the man has been in office twenty years.

Prior to that he served in this Chamber so I think his record stands for itself. And dedication, I think that this particular individual, he would n't be re-elected year in and year out if he wasn't a dedicated individual, and re-elected with vast majorities. Mr. Speaker, in the 19 71 Unicity elections, the mayor received more votes, personal votes, than this particular government did in 19 69 from the whole of the province of Manitoba. And the mayor was receiving his votes from only approximately 55 percent of the people of the province of Manitoba. His record at the polls speaks for itself.

He is a very powerful individ ual and I think that this government is doing the city and the successor to this mayor a great injustice when they are leaving the post of the mayor almost powerless. lt is all right as long as we have our current mayor in there because he has a great deal of power within the City of Wi nnipeg and he's got very great persuasive powers and he has the ability to work with the press and work with other levels of government and to get his own way in most cases.

But, whoever his successor might be, and it could be the Minister of Public Works, I think whoever his successor might be that that person should be a person who has some autho rity at the mun icipal level so that he is more than just a rubber stamp as the office now stands. The mayor of the City of Wi nnipeg, in my opinion, has less power at the city level than the Lieutenant-Governor has over the control of this House.

And so he, in my opinion, is no more than just a public figure that welcomes people to the city and presents them with a lighter or a pin on behalf of the City of Wi nnipeg, and is asked to be an ex-officio member of all committees and give his point of view when his turn comes. I think that the mayor should have veto power, as the mayor had prior to Unicity. lf there is a piece of legislation that he feels should n't be proceeded with, he can delay it for two weeks or until the next council meeting and allow counci llors to have a second review of that piece of legislation.

So therefore I would hope that the government some day would strengthen the mayor's position, although I believe that this particular government would like to do away with having the mayor generally elected from the mass population. But as long as we have the cu rrent mayor, Mayor Stephen Ju ba, I don't think this government will ever proceed with what they would really, deep down, like to do and that is have the mayor chosen by the councillors as sort of t he chairman, the way Metro elected their chairman; rather than having the mayor elected at large. Mr.

Speaker, I would say that, in my opinion, the Provincial Government is not doing what mos municipal politicians and elected persons want, and that is greater authority over their future. What they are doing is hamstringing them, tying them to both the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Urban Affairs. They have left the mayor more or less as a powerless figure. They have done one thing that I believe is good and that is they have reduced the numb er of counci llors because the former system was not working.

But I don't really believe that they have reduced the amount of red tape that these councillors will have to deal with. Therefore, what we are going to end up with is 28 ful l-time councillors, led, hopefu lly, by a rather powerless mayor in authority, but perhaps power in the fact of personality.

And the great battle between the province and the City of Wi nnipeg is going to continue on; it's going to continue in greater lengths in the futu re for the simple reason that the council will come constantly, cap in hand, to the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Urban Affairs, to try and persuade them to go along with their thinking and their line of direction.

I would hope that this legislative body would have the courage to, at least, establish a base indemnity for the councillors, as they did back in 19 71 , so the council lors don't go through the embarrassing habit of trying to get their indemn ities into proper proportion with the work-load that they are faced with each and every day. As I said, Mr. Speaker, I welcome the reduction in the number of counc illors but I do see a lot of weaknesses in this bill and I hope that some of the weaknesses can be corrected at committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister for Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I did n't intend to speak but the honourable member did ind icate that if he finished early he would take some questions. 3064 ·- .. .. ..

• .. • • Monday, May 16, 1977 He has indicated that the power has been reduced in the city in the area of finances and in the area of pl� nn.ing. At least that's the way I understood him. Now, is it not a fact that the power with regard to the c1ty 1s exactly the same?

That the power of the province with regard to the Municipal Board has been changed to an elected person, but that the City's power with regard to finances has not changed? lt still has to be agreed to at the provincial level of government, that the change has been to change it from an admi nistrative board to a political board, or to the Minister, and that with regard to planning it's exactly the same - that the Minister of Urban Affairs now has to approve third reading of a planning by-law of the City of Winnip eg. So that those two changes are not reductions. If anything they are the status quo. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Crescentwood . MR. STEEN: I believe, Mr. Speaker, that there are two distinct differences in regard to the finance; that the decisions will now be made in the Cabinet room perhaps spear-headed by the Minister of Finance rather than the Municipal Board. I did say in my remarks, Mr. Speaker, that the Municipal Board, yes, is appointed by the Cabinet of the day, the government of the day.

But I've always believed that they have been able to work at arm's length away from the Cabinet and in many cases the persons appointed to that Municipal Board were persons of long-standing experience in muni cipal government and in many cases those persons don't have, perhaps, the political personality hang-ups that a Cabinet or a Minister of Finance might have with a council They are removed at least an arm's length away .

In regard to the planning and the Minister of Urban Affairs, true, the Minister of Mines and Resou rces said he did give it third reading in all cases but now that Minister is going to be given the right to initiate planning action and not be asked to approve or disapprove at the final reading and on appeal. So, in my opinion, he can now initiate planning for the City of Winnn ipeg which he didn't do previously. MR. SPEAKER: The Monourable Member for St. Ja mes. MR GEORGE MIN AKER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Morris, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried.

BILL (NO. 64) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE HIG HWAY TRAFFIC ACT

(4) MR. SPEAKER: Bil No. 64. The Honourable jmember for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have reviewed the bill and recgnizethe Minister and the government have finally decided to reduce the speed limit in the province. From 30 m.p.h. zones it a ill now read 50 kilometres; in 60 m.p.h. zones it will read 90 kilometres; in 20 m.p.h. zones it will read 30 kilometres. I would say, Mr. Speaker, this decision by the Minister and the government has been long awaited by many group s and many individual citizens across the province, especially those that are interested in the conservation of our energy.

The Manitoba Trucking Association has had that as one of their resolutions for their last two or three annual meetings. I think the Manitoba Motor League and other safety groups have been urging t e government and the Minister to take a look at this type of legislation. lt does create some problems, on the other hand, Mr. Speaker, for people who live long distances from this capital city of Winnip eg. People, as an example, that have to drive in from Thompson or Flin Flon, possibly, and due to their geographical situation do have a special reason for needing maintenance of the present speed limit.

But nevertheless, we'll see what happens when the bill moves on to committee, Mr. Speaker. The one thing of course that does concern me regarding the reduction of speed and putting it into kilometres, is many, in fact I daresay 95 percent of the people driving around this province today their speedometers are marked in miles per hour and I don't see how it's going to proclaim that it will only recognize kilometres for some time until the whole system has been put together and unified.

I daresay that we'll have to deal with joint markings of signs for many years, because some people see fit to drive the older vehicles and I don't think we can impose a penalty upon them because somebody wants to drive an older car. The other thing, of course, on the metric system, the many concerns and anxieties hat are being expressed by the agricultur al committees across Canada today certainly must be recognized when we're dealing with this kind of legislation.

That concern is real and it's got to the stage now where the government of Canada is prepared to shelve or take another look at those sections of the metrification of our province, and take another look at it and maybe back off on certain aspects of the metric legislation. But on the other hand, I daresay in this

section dealing with speed limit, that it will come about and likely work to the best interests of everybody. The other

section was dealing with certain restrictions that are not applicable when the vehicle is used by any police force. I would hope in that

section there, the Minister would give us a better definition of who is this person employed by government as a peace officier who will not come under the sections of the Act. I'm wondering if this is a vehicle of possibly some people working for the 3065

Monday, May 16, 1977 government coming out checking purple gas on farmyards is an experience that we had in my constituency last fall where inspectors come in. I wonder is that

section being repealed to cover up for them or just basically what has the Minister in mind with that section. The

section dealing with the new definition for securing of loads on motor vehicles and trailers, of course, is a housekeeping section, Mr. Speaker. I daresay it's needed to bring the changes that were brought in last year. The other section, he one regarding the prohibition for the use of sirens and horns, I'm sure again is one ta t there has been some problems with and it again is a housekeeping matter, Mr. Speaker. The radar detection devices that the Minister now is going to try and regulae is one that I would certainly like him to give us more information on.

As I stand here, I don't see how it's possible fort he Minister or the government to regulate or bring under control these CB radios that are prevalent across our province. I daresay there are thousands of them today used on their personal belongings, or in their trucks and cars. The way they communic ate back and forth as they travel about this province is very interesting if you happen to sit in with them once in awhile. They can tell where a police vehicle is or where a certain truck is almost instantaneously.

I would think they would have our police force running around this province in circles trying to bring them under control. lf the Minister feels that he is going to bring these radar detection devices under control because CB radio is certainly a radar detection device, The other

section of the bill - he may seize the device. I wonder why there would not be an appeal allowed in that section. No doubt the Minister will give us hat information later on in the bill. The other section, Mr. Speaker, deals with the hearings of applications by single members of the Motor Transport Board and the Motor Vehicle Board and I'm wondering why now they want only one single member to go and listen to a earing. I have heard complaints that the present c airman of the two boards is naybe so busy that he doesn't have timet o deal with both Boards.

In fact there has been a rec mmendation from the Manitoba Trucking Association that the province should establish one chairman for each Board separately but I would wonder because those are people that are appointed by the Minister and the government and why all of a sudden a single person should be asked to go around and listen to the hearings in the various parts of the province. So maybe he will give us a better understanding of that when we get the bill into Committee. Those, Mr.

Speaker, are just a few of the things that ave been brought to my attention, so ne of the questions that have been raised to move the bill along to Committee and no d ubt there'll be other qu estions raised as well when we get it into Law Amendme nts. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Assiniboia. MR. PARICK: Mr. Speaker, I rise to supp ort the bill. I believe we had some information from the Minister of Highways last year that the bill would be coming and it's here.

The main points were pointed out qu ite well by the Honour able Member for Roblin. l agree with the hearing with one board member because apparently there may be two sittings the same day. The Board can split itself to take the hearings and I see nothing wrong with that, Mr. Speaker. The regulation of radar detection devices, I think that some of these gadgets have been sold now for qu ite a few years and I don't know in what way the government is going to police it with the exception that it will be illegal for some of these to be attached to cars.

I guess that's the only way. lf somebody is perhaps caught with one then there'll be a penalty. I don't think the government will have an army of people go checking on who has devices on thei r car. I think it's a principle we can accept. I think that it's perhaps overdue that we have some kind of guidelines in respect to sirens and the use of sirens and who can use them and who cannot. There are some people driving in some of the ambula nces perhaps home and in no rush will perhaps use the siren with no need to. So again I feel that we are perhaps overdue with respect to some guideli nes as to use of the sirens.

I accept and I think it's perhaps timely that we have the speed limit reduced which will result in 55 miles per hour and not only will it result in saving of our energy resources, it will perhaps be a big safety factor in respect to fatalities on our highways. As you know, Mr. Speaker, it's been iroven. The statistics have indicated qu ite well in the United States what happened after their speed limit was reduced.

Not only did they save something like $2 billion worth of energy, of fuel in I believe a year, or half a year operation, but also there was a drastic reduction, just a drastic reduction in the accidents and fatalities, so I t ink it's a move in the right direction. There may be some people against this measure of reduction in speed limit, but I'm all for it. The only other point that I don't believe is in the bill, I wondered when we went this far perhaps the Minister as well would have made it mandatory, the use of seat belts.

This has been now requested by the Manitoba Medical Association. lt's been requested by I believe three or four organizations that the use of seat belts be mandators. I know it's now law in several provinces. lt's law in Ontario. I believe that Quebec was bringing in law. I don't know if it has passed or not. I'm not so sure about Saskatchewan. But I believe either two or three provinces have a mandatory law for the use of seat belts and I believe the Minister should have moved in this area as well while he is bringing in this 3066 • .. .. • •

• • Monday, May 16, 1977 legislation. So these are the points I wish to bring and in principle I agree with the legislation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (Pete) ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have leave of the House to make a substitution on the Committee for Economic Development. MR. SPEAKER: Let's deal with this bill first. QUESTION put MOTION carried. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make a substitution on the Committee for Economic Development and su bstitute the name of the Member for lnkster, for that of the Member for Brandon East. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? (Agreed) The hour being 12 :30the House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 2:30 this afternoon. : 3067

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-61a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 61a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	08e8915d0fb9854605cecd14de4497f1f3e5ffab

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