Time : 2:3 0 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday , 19 March 1980 OPE NING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (B irtle-R ussell): Before we proceed, I should like to draw the honourable membe rs ' attention to the gallery, where we have 25 st udents of Grade ll standing from the Ashern Central School under the direction of Mr. Bob Moroz. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. George . We have 30 Girl Guides from 82B Guide Company from Fort Garry, under the directi on of of Mrs. McPhee. This is the constituency of the Honourable Attorney­ -Genera l .

We have 30 st udents of Grade ll standing from Murdoch McKay Col legiate under the direction of Mr. Schroul der . This is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Transco na. We have eight visitors from Mankato State University from Minnesota, USA, under the direction of Dr. Lo 'Lim. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. The Honourable Attorney-G eneral. HON. GE RALD W. J. MERCIER (O sbor ne) : Mr. Speaker, on a minor point of order, the Girl Guides group is located in the constituency of the Minister of Health. MR.

SPE AKER : Pres enting Petitions • • • Reading and Receiving Petitions • PRESE NTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Radissson. MR. ABE KOVNATS : Mr. Speaker, the Commit tee of Supply has adopted certain Reso lu tions, directs me to report same, and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Virden, that report of commit tee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPE AKER : Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports • • • Notices of Motion ••• IN TRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James) introduced Bill No. 20,

An Act to Amend The Change of Name Act. MR. MERCIER introd uced Bill No. 6,

An Act to amend The Wills Act and The Mental Health Ac t; and Bill No. 7,

An Act to amend The Manitoba Evidence Act. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson) introd uced Bill No. 8,

An Act to amend The Fire Department 's Arbitration Act. HON. JIM DOWNEY Veterinary Services Act. (Arthur) introd uced Bill No. 16,

An Act to amend The (R ecommended by the Lieute nant-Governor) MR. MINAKER introd uced Bill No. 21,

An Act to amend The Social Services Administration Act. - 12 03 -

Wedne sday, 19 March 1980 MR. GA RY FILMON introd uced Bill No. 14,

An Act to amend The Law Society Act; and Bill No. 25,

An Act to amend

An Act to Incorporate the Sinking Fund Trus tee s of the Winnipeg School Division No. 1. MR. DAVID BLAKE introduced Bill No. 17,

An Act to amend

An Act respecting the Agricultu ral and Community District of Newdale. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkir k): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

In view of statements that were made in this Chamber to the effect that the levels of vinyl chloride were in the neighborhood of five parts per million then subsequently amended to the neighborhood of twenty parts per million by the Minister responsible for the Env ironment, statements made only this past Monday, and in view of the fact that Dow Chemi cal officials have indicated yesterday that that indeed was not so but that there were 200 to 300 parts per million of vinyl chlori de in the atmosphere in and about the dera ilment at MacGregor, I ask the First Minister if he can advise when his government first became possessed of the knowledge that the parts per million were 200 to 300 parts per million and not five or, alternatively, twenty parts per million as had been earlier indicated by his Minister?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. ST ERLING R. LYON (C har leswoo d) : Mr. Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition will have observed, the Minister of the En vironment is not in the House this afternoon and is in fact attending a public meeting in the Town of MacGregor with a number of officials this afternoon. I cannot give him a detailed answer to his question except to indicate this, that the info rmation that was available generally to the Ministry was as reported by the Minister in his series of statements following upon this matter over the past several days.

I think there may well be, and I am not in any way trying to gloss it over, I think there may well be a mi sinterpretation as to where the mon itoring was taking place. My understanding only from the media, not from direct contact with the spokesman for Dow, is that readings were taken by pressing the monitor either into the snow right at the spot of the very spill; that is only my under standing, I can't vouch for that of first knowledge. I think what the Minister was attempting to indicate, Mr.

Speaker, was that the readings in the area where people were moving about reached a max imum of five parts per million. But I stress to my honourable friend that I am saying that only on the basis of knowledge that has come to me second hand. The safer course would be, of course, for me to take the question as notice and have the appropriate Minister respond when he retu rns to the House some time later on today. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAW LEY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of other statements by the Minister responsible for the Environment, statements made throughout the course of this past wee k that the number of gal lons that were spilled were 3, 300 gallons; and subsequent information that the Minister was charged with contrary information this past Saturday that the number of gal lons were 12,000, rather than 3,300 gallons, can the First Minister advise this House whether or not the First Minister indeed was charged with contrary information this past Saturday, and did not divulg e that informati on to the House during the debates that have taken place on this critical issue since?

MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I can answer to this extent for the Minister, and I •m reading now from his statement of Friday, March 14 th, and I quote from that st ateme nt, it's the second paragraph: "It is estimated that approx imately 3, 300 gallons of vinyl chlori de leaked from the car with the damaged valve. The actual spill is prob ably greater than this in volume because of the cut in the second - 1204 -

Wedne sday, 19 March 1980 tank car. " Now, at that stage, Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend will recal l that it was a matter of hours after the second br eached tank car had been found that the Minister made this statement to the House. He admitted to the House that the spill was greater. As to what estimated knowledge he may have obtained on the weekend, again my honourable friend can ask him that question directly when he returns to the House. But I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that it would have been speculative on the part of the Minister to make any such statement as to a fixed spillage until he had confirmed information of that amount, which apparently came to light yesterday in the statement made by the Dow people. He clearly told the news conference on Sunday that information would have to come from the CNR or Dow because they could not tell firmly apparently over the weekend as to the approximate amounts that had leaked. But he certainly did tell the House that it was 3,300 gallons from the first tank and more from the second tank.

So I'm assured, as I'm sure my honourable friend would be assured, that there was no attempt on the part of the Minister to try to misinform or to mislead the House in any way. MR. PAW LEY : Mr. Speaker, I am fully aware that on Friday the statement of the Minister was based upon information that he had at that stage, but information revealed yesterday by CN and by Dow Chem ical officials indicated that they did indeed provide the Minister with information of approximately 12 ,000 gallons on Saturday.

Can the First Minister advise as to subsequent from Saturday, whether the Minister indeed did divulge that information, either at his press conference or in the House, subsequent to receiving an estimated figure of 12 ,000 gallons? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I think the best way to satisfy my honourable friend on this point, which I think will be quickly cle ared up by the Minister, is that he was not, and did not want to be in the position of giving a speculative figure on this spillage, except to say that it was a greater amount because of the br each in the second tank that was found only on Friday.

So my honourable friend will appreciate again that until that amount had been confirmed by the CNR and by Dow, the Minister would not be in possession of the knowled ge. MR. SPE AKER : The Honoura ble Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERN IACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address the First Minister. In view of the government's rejection of the proposal or suggestion that there be a public inquiry on the spillage at MacGregor, and in view of the announcement by the Honourable Mr.

Pepin that he is setting up an inquiry on that accident, wil l the First Minister assure us that the government, provincial government, will co-operat e fully with that inquiry and will make available to it the evidence of his Minister and of all government employees involved ? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, we can .of course give the assurance that is sought by the Member for St. Johns that there will be full co-operation by this govern­ ment with respect to the inquiry that will follow as a matter of course by the CTC into the train dera ilment that took place at MacGregor.

The federal Minister, I am informed, has already been in touch with the Minister of the Environment, advising him that there wil l be the inquiry into the MacGregor spill. It will cover the cause and the safety mea sures taken from the outset, and as I have indicated, there will be full co-operation by this government with respect to that inquiry. Another matter of interest, however, Mr.

Speaker, according to the information that we have at this stage, which is to be confirmed later from the Minister's office in writing, is that the scope of movement of dangerous material , that topic, is already being covered, according to the federal Minister, in the Mississauga inquiry; and that of course will not form part of the regular inquiry which norm ally would take place and is going to take place with respect to the derailment at MacGregor. MR. CH ERNIAC K: Mr. Speaker, the second part of my question was, will the First Minister undertake to make available to the Commission of Inquiry the - 1205 -

Wedne sday, 19 March 1980 evidence that would be available from the Minister direct and other Ministers and from government employees? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I thought I had covered that by saying that this government would extend full co-operation for that inquiry with respect to any informat ion that they may require. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. SID NEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Min­ ister responsible for Corrections.

Can the Minister assure us that any represen­ tations that are intended to be made by counsel for a rather tragic case of a re­ tardate involved in indecent assault within an institution, that any represen­ tations that his counsel would want to make with regard to futu re confinement and treatment would be considered by either the Minister or members of his department? MR. SPE AK ER : The Honourabl e Minister of Community Services. MR. MINAK ER: Yes, we will give consideration.

I am not aware of the spec ific case that the honourable member is directing the question to me about, but we would give consideration to that request. MR. GREE N: Mr. Speaker, the reason I raise it is to give the Minister the infol'!ll ation that he wanted, is that there is a report in, I believe it's today's newspaper, indicating that the solicitor is of the opinion that the people who are in charge of custody would not pay any attention to any remarks that he made con­ cerning the future of this clie nt who is in custody. MR. SPEA KER : Orders of the Day. The Honourabl e Member for Fort Rouge. MRS.

JUNE WESTBURY : Mr. Speaker, I've tried to have this question answered pre viously; I've reworded it. I hope that I can have an answer today and it concerns my question on the appointment of a Deputy Minister to the Departm ent of Health and the question is addressed to the First Minister. I'm wondering if the First Minister is aware of the serious deterioration which is said to exist be­ tween the Minister of Health and the Acting Deputy Minister who was appointed by the First Minister. MR. SP.EAK ER : The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the Member for Fort Rouge that knowing both of the gentl emen in question that the al legation that she makes is without foundation. MRS. WESTBU RY: Well then is it true that the Act ing Deputy Minister of Health has refused to move into the office us ually reserve d for the Deputy Minister until his appointment is confirmed? MR. LYON : Mr. Speaker, I am just informe d as a matter of high state that the office in question is being painted. I ima gine that mi ght have something to do as to whether or not people want to move into it or stay out of it. MR. SPE AKER : mentary.

The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supple- MRS. WESTBU RY : Well I hope I can get a direct answer to this question. Is the First Minister aware that a serious deteriora tion in moral e is being provoked, promoted, within members of the depar tm ent because of the lack of a Deputy Minister? MR. LYON : Mr. Speaker, the First Minister is aware of the fact that the prov ince of Manitoba has in the present Minister one of the finest Ministers it's had in many a lo ng year and, Mr. Speaker, this whole House is equal ly aware of the - 1206 -

Wedne sday, 19 March 1980 fact that this government has in the Acting Deputy Minister, Dr. Johnson, one of the most dedicated medical people in the history of this province whose serv ice to this province, in el ected and non-elected capacities, is something that all of us take som e considerable pride in. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the honour­ able lady might check her al legations before she makes them loosely in the House . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac Du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance whether he can indicate what the current lendi ng rate is to Crown instit utions or agencie s on the most recent quarterly adjusted rate, Mr. Speak er? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Finance. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (R iel): Mr. Speaker, rather than answer it in very rough terms, I'll take the question as notice; as he's indicated it 1 s adj usted every three months and it may well have been adjusted in the last week even, but I can tell him that the borrowing rate is 14 perce nt at the pres ent time. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Speaker, is the Minister suggesting that the borrow­ ing rate being 14 perce nt that the agencie s are then eligible at 14-1/2? I believe it 1 s a half percent differential between the borrowing rate and the rate charged. MR. CRA IK: The Crown agencie s, Mr. Speaker, have been receiving their funding generally at a rate lower because the rate in the market from day to day has been advancing more rapidly than Orders-in- Council can in fact be processed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet with a final supple­ mentary. MR. USKIW: Yes, could the Minister indicate, Mr.

Speaker, just what the so urce of the moneys are at 14 percent that the Crown has access to? MR. CRAIK: Canadian, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Government Services. Could the Minister responsible for EMO give us a recent update on the flood forecast for the Red River Valley? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. HA RRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, that question is more approp riately directed to the Minister responsible for the Water Resources Branch, my col league, the Honourable Minister of Natu ral Resources. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, up-to- date information but it happens that we are having a afternoon, alo ng with the Minister of Governm ent Services and just to review the situ ation to look ahead to all eventualities further report I will be making that to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson.

I don't have any staff meeting this some of his staff, and when we have a MR. DRIEDGER: A supplem entary question to the Minister of Agriculture. The elevators in the Red River Valley apparently are plugged and very little grain movement has taken place, and with the slo w breaku p that we are having this spring, which possibly increases the potential flood danger, could the Minister - 1207 -

Wednesday , 19 March 1980 indicate whether there is any activity afoot to move some of the grain out of the Red River Valley? MR. SPEAK ER : The Honourable Minister of Agricultu re. MR. DOWNE Y: Mr. Speaker , to the Member for Emerson and members of the House, the commi ttee that has struc k between my department and the Canadian Wheat Board and other officials of the system has met some time in February to put in place a pro gram.

I understa nd at this particular point there has been an inven­ tory made of the grains and the stocks in positions that have been raised and put in protective areas throughout the Red River Valley , and I am expecting a report at any time to iden tify those elevators or those particular areas that could be in danger and a move would be put on to protect those stocks. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Emerson with a final supp lementary. MR. DRIEDGER : A question to the Minister of Agricultu re.

Would it be possib le to maybe notify the rural municipaliti es invo lve d in the Red River Valley as to the statu s , once the reports become forward? MR. DOWNE Y: Yes, Mr. Speaker , and I apol ogize for omitting one of the other parts of the work that is being done. My departm ent and some of the depart­ ments responsible in this area have met with the local reeves in the RMs affected and have had input from them to this particular point , and I will make sure they get the report as it becomes available. MR. SPE AKER : The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI : Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

I direct this question to the Minister of Health and ask him whether he can conf irm that the sta tements that he made in this House , about the last week or the week befo re, that the Chairman of the District Health Board cast two votes was in fact inaccu rate and that there are in fact thirteen members on that Board and the Chairm an , when casting his vote , was in eff ect breaking a tie and only cast one vote; has he checked that matter out and confirmed it? MR. SPE AK ER : The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. R. (B ud) SHERMAN (F ort Garry): Yes, Mr. Spea ker , l have checked that matter out.

First I might say that the information that was given to me was conveyed in good faith; it was conveyed in the course of an interview with a member of the media , and it was subsequent to that story in the media that the Honourable Member for St. George raised his questi on , so that it was not initiated as a statement in the House. Secon dly , I would advise the honourable member that the information was given to me by my closest department officials on the basis of information that had been given to them by the Reeve of Eriksda le , the person in question.

That was the informati on they had from that individual. It turns out that the Reeve of Eriksdale did not cast two votes; he cast only one. I never challen ged his democratic right to cast whatever nu mber of votes. The Constit ution --( Interjection)-- I said , in any event , Mr. Speaker , whatever he did he was obviously acting wit hin his democratic rights as Chairma n. The point is it was a tie-breaking vote.

The point is the Board was split , remains split; it was a tie-breaking vote and the issue has been referred to the Manitoba Health Services Commission for another attempt to resolve a longsta nding impasse. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI : Mr. Speaker , can the Minister indicate when he will be provid­ ing to this House the costing figures dealing with those additional costs that will be incurred in the event that a 20-bed free-sta nding nursi ng home will be bu ilt in the area? Can he assure us that they will be forthcoming before his Estim ates? - 1208 -

Wedne sday, 19 March 1980 MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr. Speaker, I certa inly cannot assure him that they will be forthcoming before my Estimates. They will certa inly be available du ring my Estimates, if that plan is agreed and accepted by the parties concerned. As I have told the honourable member, the issue has been referred once again to the Manitoba Health Services Commission and a further round of meetings is being held to try and br eak an impasse that has divided the four mu nicipalities in that district for the past two years, or more than two years. MR.

URUSKI : Mr. Speaker, can I ask the Minister how does he expect the Board, the District Board, then to make a decision if this kind of information is not provided to those members of the Board and to the members of this House so that they can at le ast assess this most generous plan that his government has said that they would want that Board to adopt? How can this Board make that decision if this Minister is unwilling to provide that information? MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMA N: Very easily, Mr.

Speaker, that information will be part of the substance and the subject matter discussed when the Commission meets with repre sentatives from that District Health System Board. And I repeat what I said before to the honourable member, nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. What the government has done is proposed and approved a course of action. It is up to the individ ual municipa lities. If they don't want it, there are many other municipalities in this province, Mr. Speaker, who are looking for personal care homes. MR. SPE AKER : The Honour able Member for Emerson. MR. DRIE DGER : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It appears that the Federal Minister responsible for Lotteries has indicated interest in getting back into the lo tteries field. Has the Minister received any corr espondence or contact from the Feds indicating that they want to re-enter the lottery field? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourabl e Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sports. HON. ROBERT "Bob" BANMAN (L a Verendrye) : Mr. Speaker, several months ago we signed an agreement with the Federal Government which saw certa in funds trans­ ferred over to them with regard to the then called Loto Canada.

The provin ces have now taken over and are running that particular Loto and it is the intention of the provinces to have the Federal Gover nment live up to its agreement that was signed several months ago. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health.

Can he confirm to this House that the Board that he says reached an impasse did in fact, in a virt ually unanimous decision, indicate to the govern­ ment, when the government asked them to set their priorities last March, when your government made the announcement that only one nursing home would be built in that district • • • MR. SPE AKER : Order please, order please. The question is repetitive. Would the Honourabl e Member for St. George care to rephrase his question? MR. URUSKI : I have another question, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Minister indicate to this House which authority would be obligated to pick up those additional costs that certa inly will be incurred by building a free-s tanding nurs­ ing home in that area that would be in excess of the normal cost that would be paid for by the per diem that is provided through the government through the Manitoba Health Services Commission to that district. - 1209 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Minister of Health. MR. SHERM AN: Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that the previous govern­ ment operated on the principle that there would be no free-standing personal care homes built. The onl y personal care homes to be built would be jux taposed to hospitals. This government has never endorsed that principle, has never indicated that that was going to be its sole and universal approach to the personal care home problem. MR. SPE AKER : The Honourable Member for St. George with a supplementary. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Could the Minister answer my question as to who will pick up those additional costs, Mr. Speaker, and could he indicate MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The que stion is repetitive. The Honourabl e Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question for the Minister of Ed ucation.

In view of the fact that members of his government will shortly be having a mee ting with Winnipeg No. 1 School Division Tr ustees, and in view of the fact that evidence submitted to the Committee on Privileges and Elections indicated that there were some 2,000 children in Winnipeg No. 1 who are not attending school, would the Minister consider placing on the agenda of that meet­ ing a discussion of those 2,000 children and the funding of ways and means of mak­ ing sure that they get back into school in order to assist them and in order to save us from future costs with respect to the crimin al justice system and our health and welfare system?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Ed ucation. HON. KEITH A. CO SENS ( Gimli): Mr. Speaker, the prob lem of truancy is one that we 're al ways prepared to disc uss with school boards of the prov ince. It's a problem that has been with us for some time. In some areas it has increased in recent years. We are working at all times to try to find some solution to at least diminish the problem. I would be quite prepared to discuss this at any time with Winnipeg School Division No. 1 or in fact, any other division in the provin ce. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary to the Minister of Ed ucation. Would the Minister not agree that in terms of the province of Manitoba, this problem is most severe in Winnipeg No. 1, and would he also under­ take to attempt to obtain specific funding aimed at Winnipeg No. 1 for this very specific purpose of br inging these children back into the school system? MR. COSE NS: Mr. Speaker, I would only repeat that I am quite prepared, my department is quite prepared to discuss the problem with Winnipeg No. 1 and attempt to come to some solution to the prob lem. In fact, a complete sol ution, a partial solution, Mr.

Speaker, whatever would be possible. It's a problem that has been with us for some time. Certa inly governments in the past have not been able to solve it and we certainly would be very pleased if we could come up with a solution. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Att orney- General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Member for Transcona asked me a nu mber of questions with respect to a constituent's case. Mr. Speaker, I'm advised that the last known whereabouts of Mr. Kosowan was in Winnipeg on January 15, 1980, and that the RCMP through their investigation are aware that Mr.

Kosowan had his automobile repaired and paid cash for those repairs. On January 17, 1980, Mr. Speaker, a Canada-wide warrant was issued against him for theft; and on Feb ruary 4, 1980 four Canada-wide warr ants were issued for abduction. These warrants, Mr. Speaker, are circ ulated to all police agencies and all borde r points. - 1210 -

Wedne sday, 19 March 1980 Further efforts have been undertaken by the departm ent and the RCMP in attempt­ ing to locate this gentlema n. The RCMP have assigned a senior officer to this case who is in regular consultation with the senior Crown Att orney in my depart­ ment, Mr. Speak er. Rather than go into specific other efforts that are being made by the RCMP in their attempts to lo cate this gentleman, I would prefer, Mr. Speaker, to discuss those private ly with the member in order that the investigation and the process is not jeopard ized. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR.

WILSON PAR ASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Before I start my question, I just wanted to assure the Minister of Health that I am not conducting a partic ular personal investigation into health care in Manitoba at present. I thank the Minister for his answer, I think that will provide some assu rance for the person involved, al though I must ask why the system of justice had to wait until after January 15th, the time where the kidnapper escaped the police trap, supposedly, to issue the warrant for arrest for theft and for kidnapping, in that the abd uction took place in October of 1979· MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I had asked, having been in receipt of a communication from Mrs. Kosowan that this matter be reviewed, and every effort be made to attempt to assist her in this particular matter. It's unfort unate that the gentleman in question left this particular area prior to the warrants being issued, but every effort has been made since then in attempts to locate him. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address my question to the Minister responsible for hiring personnel for the administration of the Hansard Services.

Can he indicate to the House whether a greater effort can be made to hire personnel since Hansard now is running late, and due to the invitation that we had from the Chair with respect to this service MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase. I suggest the que stion should be directe d to the Speaker as Hansard comes under the direct control of the Speaker. Unfortunately, you cannot direct a question directly to the Speaker, so I suggest the honourable member mee t me in my office. MR.

FOX: I appreciate the suggestion and the ruling of the Chair, but I would respectfully suggest that hiring of personnel for Hansard comes under the Civil Service and not under the Speaker, so therefore I find my question in order. If you wish to rule me out of order, we'll cross that bridge • MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase. I rule the question out of order. The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CH ERNIAC K: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to welcome back the Minister of Finance and ask him, assuming he was away on government business, would he inform the House where he has been and what he has done on behalf of the people. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Minister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the Member for St. Johns that I was away on government business. I cannot assure him of anything further and beyond that, since it is the execution of executive responsibility that took me there. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREE N: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a que stion to the Minister of Parks, I believe it's the Minister of Mines, Resources and Env ironmental Manage­ ment. Is the Minister in any way considering some intervention on the part of Manitobans, many of modest means, some of weal thy means, whose rates in the Riding - 1211 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 Mountain Provincial Park seem to be termed as almost "confisca tory" especially when they apply to modest income people? I'm indicating, Mr. Speaker, that modest income people were encouraged to have cottages there. The rates are now changed as to, in some cases, be over $1,000 a year which would be beyond the means of many people of more than modest income. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resource s. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, that concern, that issue of course is not within the real m of my responsibility, but it does seem to demonstrate the lack of con­ cern that the federal government has for people that have been in that position of being lo ngstanding le asees of cottages in Riding Mountain Park. I can take the opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to say that while we expect some review of leases to take place, or the fee structure to take place during the development of our master plans for provincial parks in the province, that we will not be making any increases in fees in this upcoming year. MR. SIDNEY GREEN : Mr.

Speaker, I appre ciate the fact that the Riding Mountain National Park is under federal jurisdiction, but many of the people affected are citizens of the province of Manitoba, and in

part icular western Manitoba, and I •m just wondering whether the Minister feels that on behalf of these citizens some contact be made to the federal government to determine whether in fact my suspicion is cor rect, that the rates will merely confiscate modest in­ come people's property and give it to wealthier people; that can be the only result. People without income will be forced to sell their cottages which can only then be purchased by people with a great deal of income. MR. RANSON: Mr.

Speaker, that may well be the case and I'm sure that the honourable member is concerned about it for those individ uals, as I am concerned for those individuals, but it is not within the realm of my responsibility as Minister charged with the responsibility for mana ging Manitoba' s parks that I should intervene on the part of individual Manitobans in their relationship with the federal government, unjust as that relationship may be. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I go to a higher authority, I put a question to the First Minister.

Would the First Minister look into this question and see whether it is worth raising as between himself and his federal counterpart? We are tal king about citizens of the province of Manitoba who have been subjected to what can only be termed as confisca tory taxes. The kind of taxes which some of the honourable members said that I raise for the purpose of taking public owner­ ship of the mining industry, which of course was completely false, and not one cent of that type of taxes has ever been paid by a mining company. But, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the Minister of Mines and Resources can't merely say that it's not my area of responsibility. The First Minister speaks for the citizens of the province of Manitoba and I would ask him to look into this question and see whether it is worth raising on behalf of people in his, in the Minister of Mines' riding probably? MR. SPE AK ER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I want the record to show that I readily acknowlege that my honourable friend the Member for Inkster has greater knowlege and has greater expertise in the field of confiscatory taxes than anyone on this side of this House and so when he says that a tax or a payment is confiscatory, Mr. Speaker, I believe him.

But I do want to echo in part what my colleague the Minister of Resources said, that this is a matter that is under the jurisdiction of the federal government and of course has to be dealt with by the federal members of Parli ament on behalf of their constituents; and I'm sure that all federal members of Parliament, maybe with the exception of two, will be letting the federal government know of their extreme displeasure with this act of al most unconscionable increase that has taken place with respect to citizens of Manitoba, business people in Manitoba who for years and years have either lived in or carried on business in Riding Mountain National Park. - 1212 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 I agree as a member of this House that what we have seen in the paper does repres ent

an act of unconscionable increase in the summer home charges that are being imposed by the federal government.

It makes one wonder how this took place in the interregnum period betwee n a government going out and another government com ing in and I certainly share with my honourable friend the sense of indignation that I know is the case with people from all parts of Manitoba who go to Riding Mountain National Park with this act that has taken place by the federal parks br anch and I can assure my honourable friend that within the powers that are available to us that we will certainly let that displeasure be known to our federal counterparts . MR. SPE AKER : The Honourab le Member for The Pas. MR. RONAL D McBRYDE : Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Minister of Resources. Some time ago I asked the Minister of Resources about payments to fishermen under the Fish Transportation Subsidy Program. I wonder if the Minister could inform us whether those paym ents have gone out yet, and if not when those paym ents will be going out to fisher men? MR. SPEAK ER : The Honourab le Minister of Natural Resource s. MR. RANSOM : Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to say that some time ago I answered that question.

If the honourable member would refer to Hansard of some two weeks ago, I believe, I had announced that payments had gone out and, in fact contrary to the member's allegation about them being late, they were in fact earlier than they were last year. MR. McBRYDE : Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his answer and direct a question to the Minister of Transportation.

Since the winter road network will be closing on Friday, I bel ieve is the date, I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether the necessary goods have been transported into the remote communities and whether there would be any need to attempt to keep the roads open lo nger? MR. SPE AK ER : The Honoura ble Minister of Highways. HON. DON ORCHARD (Pembina) : Mr. Speaker, as of Friday last week there were eight loads to be del ivered on the Me-Ke-S i winter road contract and if my memory se rves me correct, some six loads on the balance of the winter roads in no rthern Manitoba. MR.

SPE AK ER : The Honour able Member for The Pas with a final supplementary. MR. McBRY DE : Mr. Speaker, another question to the Minister of Transport­ ation and I hope that I'll get a good answer like I did from the Minister of Resources. Some time ago I asked the Minister about a proposal from The Pas Handi-Van Service. I wonder if he can indicate whether that has been approved, up to this time? stage. MR. SPE AK ER : The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR. ORCH AR D: Mr. Speaker, that application is very close to the approval MR.

SPE AKER : The time for question period having expired, we' 11 proc eed with Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Government House Lead er. MR. MERC IER : Mr. Speaker, before we proceed I mu st note and congratul ate all members of the Legislature on the decor um and the gentlemanly behaviour that - 121 3 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 has gone on during this question period and I just wonder, Mr. Speaker, whether there is any connection with that and the fact that there is no television camera today. Mr. Speaker, I move seconded by the Minister of Gover nment Services that, Mr. Speaker, do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEA KER: It's been moved by the Honourable Government House Leader, seco nded by the Honourabl e Minister of Government Services MATTER OF GRIEVA NCE MR. SPEA KER: The Honourabl e Member for Elmwood. MR.

RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a mat ter of grievance. MR. SPEAKE R: Order, order please. The Honourabl e Member for Inkster on a point of order. MR. GREEN: No, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the member would yield for a point of privilege and it is a very small point. Yesterday in giving some information to the House I indicated that a memo went from a Mr. Feldman to Mr. Gould. I be­ lieve if one looks at the memo it would appear that it went from Mr. Gould to Mr. Feldman, so I just want to correct that. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourabl e Member for Elmwood. MR. DOER N: Mr.

Speaker, I rise on a matter of grievance to attack this government's educational policies and in particular in relation to the Winnipeg School Division. Mr. Speaker, before I beg in I would like to say in regard to the Att orney­ -General's remarks that this government doesn't look good whether the TV cameras are here or not; and I say in regard to their policies on education, I believe that we are really at a crisis state in the city of Winnipeg, that Winnipeg residents in School Division No. 1 are being faced with substa ntial program cuts which will reduce the quality of education.

They are being faced with larger classes of st udents which makes it ext remely difficult for teachers to cope with and that they are being confronted with increased taxes. Mr. Speaker, the citizens of Winnipeg are being faced with a potential tax rise of some 17 percent for an average home, at an average cost of $60, and this is, I would say, is the logical outcome of the policie s of the Lyon administration, which is to shift taxes from the provincial government onto the municipa lities and individuals.

This has been going on since they first got elected and it is continuing, even though my friend from Government Services continues to deny it. We know, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Government Services says it is not true that it is true because when he says something is true we know it is false, so therefore it is obvious what his problem is. Mr. Speaker, the property tax rebate system has been unchanged in two and one­ -half years and there is no indication coming from the government side to reduce or relieve the property taxpayer across the province and in the city of Winnipeg in particular.

Now I know that the Minister thinks that he is a high roller when he tells us that he is going to increase the $1 million special grant for the city of Winnipeg to $1.5 million. He thinks that is a substantial amount of money.

But in re­ lation to the extra costs, the extra responsibiliti es incurre d by the citizens of Winnipeg Division No. 1, on behalf of not only their own taxpayers and their own citizens but on behalf of the people who live throughout the Metropol itan Winnipeg area and throughout the province of Manitoba, I say that this is a drop in the bu cket. $1.5 million on what could be a $7 million grant, a grant that is estimated by the Winnipeg School Board in relation to their requirements. And I want to say right here, Mr. Speaker, that I am not just ex pressing the opinion of one segment of society.

The case in Winnipeg is supported by the teachers. It is supported by the parents. It is supporte d by the trustees in the - 1214 -

Wednesday , 19 March 1980 Winnipe g School Division No. 1, and it is also supported , Mr. Speaker , by the Manitoba Association of School Trustees. So this isn't some simple busine ss, as outlined by the Lieut enan t-Gover nor , among other s, that this was the teac hers' fight; this was something that the teachers were cooking up. This is something that is supported by teacher s, trus tees , parents and every one who is concerned about education in the province.

Now you know one of the main questions that we have been talking about in the last few years in this province and that this administration talked about a lot during the last election - they in fact probably scored some points on this - they talked about back to the basics , back to the basics. That is how you save money , Mr. Speaker.

You provide the bare minimum of services and you provide the bare minimum of funding and what you do , in particular - and I know that some of my colleagues who served in the post of Minister of Ed ucation , like my colleague from Burrows, my colleague from Seve n Oaks , they were always told that we were interested in fril ls , we should get back to the essential s - get back to the basics and this is perfectly consistent and perfectly , I guess, symb olic of what the present Minister is talk ing about.

Well , I want to list a dozen of so frills that this government is telling the City of Winnipeg that it should eliminate; that it will not fund; that it does not feel should some with the ambits of normal provin cial grants. Well , what are they?

Things like the fact that, say , the city of Winnipeg in the Winnipeg School No. 1 is confronted with a lot of poor and underprivi leged people , both poor and working, and poor and on welfare , and teaching the poor is a frill; and the fact that they have a large transient population and that they shouldn't be concerned with that; and that there are thousands of people of native extraction and that they shouldn't be concerned with frills like native education; that there are immigrants who pour into our country and into our province and usually first lan d and first find their home in the centre core of Winnipe g, and there is not suffici ent consideration given to them, so they, therefore , must be a frill.

The nursery schools are a frill. There are 40 nursery schools in the city of Winnipeg , not a penny for them. There was a big fight last summer , Mr. Speaker , about summer courses for underprivi leged students. We had to fight that particular case. There are some schools that are talk ing about eliminating mu sic. There are som e schools that are talking about eliminating part of their French program. The R.B. Russell School , which was , I think, one of the most imag inative and in­ novative schools in the province , is going to be eliminating electri cal courses. -- (Inter jecti on)-- Shocking is right.

They are going to also provide us with larger classes; I am talking about the province. The Minister doesn't seem to be concerned with a few more students in each class. If I push him hard enough and long enough I suppose he might agree with some so-called expert who must have been dropped from the sky and landed on his head , who came up the figure that you can have as many as 42 st udents in a classroom. Well , you know , Mr. Speaker , I was once a teacher --(I nterj ection)-- 48 on a bus , one on a motorcycle. So , Mr.

Speaker , it really is mind-boggling to think that some so-called educator could imagine that a teacher could handle a class with 42 st udents in it. I tell you that I taught for a number of years. I taught with my honourabl e friend for a year at Stonewall Collegiate , his home turf , and I can tell you when you have a dozen or 15 or 16 st udents you are laugh­ ing , and I have had classes like that on occasion; I once had a few classes like that in the River East School Division.

When you have classes of 30 it is pretty tough; when you have 35 or 36, boy , let me tell you that is the maxim um , that is a problem then for the teacher and it's a problem for the st udent because of the sheer nu mbers and the magnitude of the class. I am not tal king here , Mr. Speaker , about university. I am not talk ing about students who are older and students who may , in some cases , be 7 0 or 100 in the class. I am talk ing about juve niles and min ors. When you cram them into classes in confined space s, it becomes an impossibility.

So I list for you the so-called frills according to provincial fund ing and provincial formula, and I say that the Minister , when he talks about going back to the basics , and his First Minister and his government , they are talking about some completely out-dated notion of the Three R's and the little red school house. They're not with the times; they're not with the prob lems. - 1215 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 In the case of the city of Winnipeg, they are ignoring the social cost of these probl ems. If the Minister of Ed ucation isn't going to pay the bill s for these young people, these immigrants, these poor people, then I tell you that his colleague in the front bench in Health and Social Development is going to pay some of those bills, and that his seatmate, the Minister of Corre ctions, he's going to pick up the tab. So take your pick.

If you 1 re not going to provide extra attention to people who are underprivile ged and they need extra attention - they don't need eq ual attention, they need extra attention - you're going to wind up with more juvenile delinquents, you'll wind up with greater police costs, a greater bill in cor rections, and more court costs. That is the long-run con­ sequence. And you know, we had a great leader in our party named J. S.

Woodsworth, and I'm sure that if I could dredge up his old speeches from the 1910s and '20s we would be hearing the same sort of problems and probably the same sorts of pro­ posals, name ly, that the needs of the people in the centre core of Winnipeg must be met or else there is a social cost and ultimately a dollar sign. Mr. Speaker, I represent the Elm wood area and the constituency of Elmwood, which has two school divisions. The central part of my riding is in the Winnipeg School Division, and the Fast Kildonan component is in the River Fast School Division.

And Elmwood, in the central region is older than say, the east end of Elmwo od, or the Fast Kildonan area of my particular riding. And we have schools in there which are confronted with declinin g enrolments. We have schools which are older which need special support from the provincial government. My people formed a citizen group headed by people I had never met before who fought the good fight on the George V school.

That was a little different, that was an older school that needed some struc tural support, and if my information is corre ct, in spite of the fact that they made their case, in spite of the fact that it was log ical to repair that building for a hundred or a couple of hundred thousand dollars, when they went to the provincial government they were refused any support.

I wait to hear any final comments from the Minister, but I really expected that when the citizens of Elmwood who finally got support from the Winnipeg School Division, when the division went to the Public Schools Finance Board that they would get the grant. Now maybe the Minister can comment on that. If they got the grant, that's fine. But it took a tremendous amount of pressure and persu asion and endl ess meetings on the part of the citizens in an attempt to get $100,000 to $250,000 to repair a school. Now a mor e interesting case. In my riding, Mr. Speaker, is the Sir Sam Stee le School.

That's a small school, it's an older school but it's in beautiful con­ dition, and that school is in danger of closing. Because in that particular school, it's in an older part of town and there is a declining enrolment, and I say that that school is a sample of what is being dealt with by the Winnipeg School Division and is a problem that the Minister has to grapple with. And Sir Sam Steele, Mr. Speaker, it kind of works like this.

There are people, a lo t of young people who are looking at homes in the Elmw ood area, there are a lot of older people; and one of the things that is happening that is really good that I welcome and am del ighted with about my riding, is young couples coming in with young families, bu ying old houses, rehabilitating them, painting them, fixing them, living in them, bringing up their children, and sending them to the neighbour hood schools. Now here's the problem and here is the dilemma. As these schools close, one of the first things that the young people in the area do is move.

The other point is that people who are looking into an area, looking at housing, give tremendous consideration to schools in the neighbourhood, and if you tell a young family that there is a school three blocks away, or one block away, they will move there. If you tel l them there is a school there that's going to close, or it might close, or there is talking about closing, they may say, well I'm not gambling, this is a very big investment and I'm not going to fool around.

And if you tell them that the nearest school is a mile away or half a mile away or three-qu arters of a mile away, they'll say, we'll move clo ser to that school. So you get this kind of vicious circle, as you close the schools you get the younger couples going farther away. So if you close all the schools in the centre core, and my colleagu e the Member for Winnipeg Centre, he could speak on this, he spoke on it all through our administrat ion .•• --(Int erjectio n)-- No, not at this mo ment •••• and he could speak on it again as a person who represents the centre - 1216 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 core of Winnipeg. You close the schools and you will get a shift in populati on, and the younger children and the younger families will move out of the area. So then you can close more schools. And then you can close mo re schools, and more people will move away, and event ually you can close all the schools in that area, and we can eventually have all the schools in the city of Winnipeg clo sed. And then we can re-open a whol e bunch of new ones in the sub urban areas. Because I'm telling you that's what's happening. My friend from Emer son, he doesn't belie ve me.

But he's onl y familiar with the Emerson picture. In fact, I'm more familiar with the Emerson picture than he is of the Winnipeg picture. --(Inter jecti on)-- Well, I'm simply stating a fact, Mr. Speaker. I always spen t my holidays in beautiful Emerson riding, and I even attended school once for a few days down there in Over stoneville, which is a very tiny place in the riding. I trust there's a plaque there somewhere in that little schoolhouse signifying the event. So Mr. Speaker, I say that these problems are very fundamental, and that the Minister is not coming up with answers for them.

What are the answers he gives us? I say he is not looking at the total picture. He is a very suave person; he's mu ch suaver than when I used to know him, when he and I taught in 1962-63. Then he was more sort of woolly and lovable. Now he's the Minister - he used to wear curling sweaters in those days, Mr. Speaker. Now it's all these three piece suits, all with vests. I heard, this is onl y a rumour, that he has a vest for his curling sweater today. And he gives us these glib, legalistic, laWYer-like answers, and you know, he's a very intelligent person, and he's a very likeable person.

I have always said that, I have always described him in those terms. But, when it comes to handling questions and handling his department, he is very glib. He can sleep at night easy, he has no problems, doesn't wrestle with any prob lems , because he has a very standard answer. No matter what we say he either says, we will look into it, like all the other Ministers, but he just says it is declining enrolment, you see, .what can I do.

It is just going down, there are fewer students, so there are fewer pro vincial dollars and that is his speech, that is him, that is the essence of him as Minister; that is not the essence of him as a man, but as Minister he is giving us trite answers to complicated problems. Mr. Speaker, his statement about declining enrolment and the exact proportion in regard to pro vincial support, I say that is a pavlovi an response. It is just automatic. He al so says that there is an absolute increase in funding.

He tells us that they are getting mo re dollars, they are giving more dollars, there's a few more dollars every year than the year before, and he tells us that they are fund­ ing the basics. You know, they are not interested in frills. Ed ucators have to make this hard reassess ment and I am not going to tal k now, Mr. Speaker, about universities, I'll save that for the department. I am talking now about the secondary and primary system of education. Then he tal ks about pupil/teacher ratios.

So if you ask him something he says we are giving more money or he says it is declining enrolment or he says back to the basics or he says we have a pup il/tea cher ratio, and that is it. Right? If you have those answers, you know, you just give them those answers. Right? I am worried about the Honourable Member for Rossmere. He is a young impres sionable member and he hears these answers and he believes some of them. The rest of us we don't believe any of them, but he would like to believe them. Mr.

Speaker, one of the issues that the Minister is not dealing with is that when you get to declining enrolment there are certain costs that continue regard­ less of declining enrolment. We all know that dec lining enrolment is the answer. I mean we know that that is the problem, it is not the answer. He thinks it is the answer, we think it is the problem, and he is not tackling the funding portion, not coming up with solutions or programs to these prob lems. MR. HA NUSCH AK : And the best bre eders aren't doing anything about it either. MR. DOERN: That's right.

Take the school buses, when you have declining enrolment , if you have a bus that picks up 40 kids and it goes down to 30 kids, does that mean you should cut the transpor tation budget by 25 perce nt, will that help? You see there are certain problems, Mr. Speaker, that even when there are fewer students you still have those costs; when you have a school with empty - 1217 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 classrooms you still have heating costs that are roughly the same, you still have ligh ting costs that are quite similar; and in some cases, you know, the answer I suppose it close the schools and so on. Well, we know that the members over there, they are a littl e nervous about closing schools. Some of those good south­ western Manitobans said the other day, said the New Democrats are buildi ng the schools and the Tories are closing them, and they want the Minister to get in­ volved in that, they want him to fight that issue.

I hope the Member for Pembina, the Minister of Highways and Transportation, I hope that he gets into that and fights for his issues. So, Mr. Speaker, there are costs like that and I am not inventing these costs, I am sure that the Minister when he meets with the Winnipeg School Board will hear about this; when he mee ts with the Teachers' Socie ty, he will hear this; when he meets with parents, concerned parents, he will hear this; and he will hear it from us. He has heard it already, he will hear it today, he will hear at great length during his Estimates.

And when he tal ks about giving more money he is ignoring the inflation ary factors in today's society, that though he is giving more money, according to the various school divisions there is a relative decline in provin cial funding. So we have to talk in absolute and relative terms and the figures seem to conclusively demons trate that there is a lesser and lesser and lesser portion of school costs, education costs, that are borne by the provincial government.

The third point, of course, is that he is not concerned about these over -grant teachers, these over -grant teachers; and I think the Minister gave us some very confusing, maybe deliberately decep tive figures the other day about ratios in re­ gard to teachers, and I think there was a confusion there about teachers that are funded by the province and that are paid for by the divisions, employed and authorized.

I say to the Minister that when he says that there are too many teache rs being used and that the ratios are out of whack, I say to him that that is the assess ment of those school divisions, and that is the assess ment of those school boards; that isn't the asses sment of the teac hers, the teachers have a right to be interested in protecting their jobs, they have a right to fight for a high qual ity of education; bu t the decisions are made by the school board. I am sure the Minister appreciates the dif ference that those final decisions are made on that side of the table. Mr.

Speaker, what is the government' s problem then? Well, the problem is that they seem to lack the underst anding or lack the appreciation of some of these issues. They don't see m to have any poli cie s that can grapple with ed ucation in the 1980s in Manitoba, and they are certainly not grappling with the central problem of declining enrolment. I will tel l you why, Mr. Speaker, one of the problems, the key to the question, one key to the question would be dollars, wouldn't it? The government doesn't have the bucks, that is one of the Minister 's problem s.

Maybe he is not fighting for the bu cks, that is the thing we don't know. We don't know what he is doing in Cabinet as to whether he is a forceful adv ocate for education, whether he can stand up to some of the ministers with departments who bang the table and shout for the need for more highways, more drainage, law and order, more jail s. As the Minister of Economic Development said, we got more of everything in this province, we got more sand and more birds, we got more cult ure, mor e everything , lots of "d is" and lots of "dat". I think that he was quoted in the paper as saying that, Mr. Speaker.

I say that the reason that the Minister may not have the dollars, and the reason that the government may not have the dollars, is because the Manitoba econ­ omy is in a slump. That is the fundamental problem, because of the bankru ptcy of government economi c policy, that is the fundamenta l prob lem. And with population decline and with people leaving , and with taxpayers leaving, with a lo wer birth rate, there are fewer students, there are fewer teac hers today, and there are fewer taxpayers, Mr.

Speaker. -- (Int erj ectio n)-- Well, if there are more people working and there are fewer students, then you should have the money to provide for education. So, Mr. Speaker, I say that the government has been in office, for two and a half year s they've been in office. This is their ball game. All those good old standard arguments for the first and second year about, oh, I've got to clean up the mess and the Premier and all his jargon about elephants and about rat in­ fested, all that old stuff we've al l heard. It was pretty good the first time. The hundredth time it wasn't quite as good. - 1218 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 The Member for Kil donan gives me this

article from the Trib of twelve days ago saying, in effect, that Premier Sterling Lyon must have forgot to flip his calendar. He flipped his lid but he didn't flip his cale ndar. And when he gave his • • • I'm talking about the Trib said this. The Trib said let's look to the future. Let's stop loo king for these old arguments about what went on when the NDP was there. Here's what they say, "A w common Mr. Lyon, there's only so far you can float on that leaky old ship. Stop rewriting your old speeches. " And of course that's all that we hear.

So I'm saying to the Minister don't give us this stuff about declining enrollment and you're locked in and if it goes down 100 we reduce our grant appropriately. And we don't want to hear about monitoring. If the Minister is going to re-ex amine the greater Winnipeg education levy, and so on, let him say so. If he wants to make major adjustm ents in there let him say so. If he wants to look at some of the bigger issues and the tougher issues and the ones that are pretty hard to tackle, maybe insoluble, he's going to have to look at other issues, maybe the single division for metro Winnipeg.

Those are some of the things he should be conside ring. So now, Mr. Speaker, we come down to the crunch for Winnipeg, a meeting on March 2lst. The Minister said a week ago, eight days ago, that whatever is going to happen would happen; it was too late, he couldn't do anything. It was all over because they missed the budget cu t-off. Well, they didn't miss the cut- off. The Minister was mistaken on that point. They now have time. They now have between now and Monday night to indicate to the City of Winnipeg where they're going to make a maj or revision in their funding.

So they' 11 mee t with the board on Friday and the board is going to meet with us to give us a br iefing, and then on Monday night is the filing dea dline for the School Division. And Wednesday night is council meeting, when the City of Winnipeg councillors will str ike the mill rate and, Mr. Speaker, I'm going to predict the Minister's response right now. I'm going to put words in his mouth and I think he is going to speak right after me so he can eas ily repudiate what I am going to say. Mr. Speaker, may I ask how much time I have left? MR. SPE AKER : The Honourable Member has nine minutes. MR.

DOERN: Nine minutes, I'll only use part of that, Mr. Speaker. --(In terj ection)-- Use it al l. Okay, I might use it all . Mr. Speaker, I say that we can pre dict the Minister's response. We know the Minister well and we know the government better. They're going to monitor. They' re going to study. They monitor everything. The head monitor is actually the Minister of Health; he's the head monitor. The Minister of Labour is pretty good at that and so are the other • • • I'm sure when they took their lessons in Cabinet that the First Minister told them to say that.

He said either take it as notice or say you're monitoring it, and you can't go wrong. You give them one or the other and the Opposition, they'll accept it. Well the Minister of Transportation, the new Minister, not my bud dy the old Minister --(I nterj ection)- ­ The good old Minister. The new Minister agreed that's what instructions he had. Those were the tips that he received. -- (Interjection)-- This is my own speech. It's my own handwriting, my own thinking. Mr. Speaker, I say that the Minister will meet with the board and he'll come out into the hallway. He' 11 smile. He's a good looking guy.

He' 11 open up his suit button, show them his vest, and he'll say we're going to monitor. No, we're going to study the sit uation. He'll say study because it's a synonym but it's better and more appropriate in this case. We'll study the sit uation . We're going to examine the br ief of the board. We had a very sincere, frank and candid ex• change of opinions and we are very receptive. I hope I can use up enough words, Mr. Speaker, because then the Minister will have a problem trying to think of words that I left out. He'll say we had a very good talk with Mrs.

Spivak, and her board and the Premier and I, we all registered our concern. We raised some valid points. And in spite of economic constraints and restraints and so on and the BNA Act and

Section 92 and 91 and 90 and 93 •.. But then they will say to the Chairman of the School Board, they'll say, "D id you get any money? " And she'll say, "No, not a penny but we got a promis e that the Minister will ••• " First of al l, he's - 1219 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 going to go into crisis consultation. He 's going to go night and day from Frid ay, 11 or 12 o'clock until Monday night. --(Interjection)-- No he 's going all week­ end. He 's going to miss church. He 's not going to curl on Sunday and he 's going to work on this problem and then he 's going to give the Winnipeg Schoo 1 Di vision an answer. And guess what the answer is? Can 't do it, not enough time but , never mind, we are going to study this. For the next year I'm going to put on my ex­ perts. I'm going to really tackle the problems. And that 1 s going to be the answer.

It 's going to appear to be action. Action-looking, action-like but it 's going to be the old Tory inaction. It 's the old Tory inaction, the old words, the old gestures, and not a penny more, Mr. Speaker, not a penny more for the tax­ payers in the Winnipeg School Division. So, in conclusion and to give the Minister an opportunity to respond - I know he is going to respond. --(Interjection)-- No, he 's not going to respond? He has to respond, Mr. Speaker. We encourage him to respond and no matter what he says we'r e going to monitor his response, every word. And I say, Mr.

Speaker, in con­ clus ion, that I condemn this admi nistration, this department and this Minister for not meeting the challenges of the 1970 's, the late 1970's and the 1980 's, and for being responsible for a distinct deterioration of the public school system in Manitoba. MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourabl e Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Civil Service and the Honourabl e Member for Virden in the Chair for the Departm ent of Highways. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR.

CH AIRMAN, Morris McGre gor (V ird en) : I call the committee to order. We are on Item 4. (a) - the Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHROE DER : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm just wondering whether the Minister could inform us as to how much of the road maintena nce in the province of Manitoba is being subcontracted out to private contractors, that is snow clearing oper ations and that sort of thing? MR. CH AIRM AN: The Honourable Minister. HON. DON ORCHARD (P embin a) : The only time we would do routine maintenance work with other than government equipment is upon occasion with municipalities by using their equipment.

MR. SCHROE DER: How about the Whiteshell Provin cial Park, Provin cial Road, I believe 307, 309, is that not contracted out? MR. ORC HA RD : No, it has not been contracted out to private people. MR. SCHROED ER: I would hope that the Minister would check his facts on that. I believe that it 's been contracted out to a contractor at Seven Sisters Falls who has been operating those roads throughout the winter, mu ch to the dismay and consternation of cer tain people living in the Whiteshell Park because they have not have satisfact ory serv ice in terms of snow cle aring on their lanes. MR.

ORCHA RD: I think, by and large, my answer still stands. Apparently what has transpired on that stretch of road is the Parks Department itse lf used to do the mai ntenance. Their machinery broke down and in the interim of getting dep artment machinery in there on a temporary basis, apparently some private machinery was used. MR. SC HROE DER: Are these roads then going to be mai ntained next year by the Parks Department, or is this going to be a permanent function of the Depart­ ment of Highways. That is, my understanding is that we started off last year with - 1220 -

Wedne sday, 19 March 1980 Parks Department, or Nat ural Resources, controlling the operations out of the village of Rennie, Manitoba; they had a mainta iner which had br oken down, there was less than a few thousand dollars worth of repairs required, apparently the capital cos ts - you didn't have the funds to fix up that maint ainer - and at the same time there was a transfer out of the Parks Depart ment into Highways. Is the Minister now saying that next year this will be a Parks Department function again, and that the Parks Depart ment will be doing the cle aring. MR. ORCHA RD: Mr.

Chairman, on the provincia l road system within the park, next year it will be my departm ent that will be maintaining snow removal and cle arance on those roads. MR. SCHROEDER: Wil l it be doing that with its own equipment, I would assume out of Beausejour or some other district in that vicinity ? MR. ORCH ARD: It will be department equipment, whether it is specific ally from Beausejour or deployed from Winnipeg. It depends on the avail ability of equipm ent that is surplus to the needs. MR. SCHROE DER: Yes, Mr.

Chairma n, on that could I also suggest that some cons ideration be given to using the equipment which the government currently has, al though it is not in the Minister 's Depar tm ent.

When this function was trans­ fer red from Parks to Highways the maint enance equipment was left with the Parks Branch and is sitting there, and the Parks Branch still has the same number of employees working out at Rennie, at lea st that is my information; and so what we have accomplished for the past year appears to be a situation where you have a pr ivate con tractor doing the work, and in add ition to that we have all of the employees of government still there, and in addition to that we have Highways equipment sitting in the Parks Department which doesn 't want to fix it because it has nothing to do with the equipment anymore because it is now a function of the Highways Departmen t.

It would seem to me that eit her the grader and other equip­ ment should be sold or should be transferred to the Highways Depart ment or maybe employees currently in the Parks Department could be transferred to Highways and operate that very same equip ment out of Rennie. MR. ORCHARD : Mr. Chairman, I think it is a matter of semant ics. First of all, when the Member for Rossmere implicates that Highways equipment is sitting in the Parks Branch, what you mean is equipment used on highways, not Highway Depart­ ment equi pment, because none of our equipm ent is sitting there broken down and unused.

I am not familiar, of course, with the specifics on the situat ion, but I am quite sure that the Member for Rossmere should point out those kind of economies to the Minister responsible for the Parks Service because it would be within his department's jurisidiction to make sure that the personnel and equipment are de­ ployed properly. MR. SC HROEDER: Yes, on that, I had privately informed the Minister in charge down there of the fact that that equipment was there and br oken down and appeared not to be functioning.

There is just one other comment and that is if Highways is going to be doing this next year I would hope that the people in charge would would check with the Parks Depar tm ent and disc uss with their pers onnel out at Rennie or wherever the procedure which had been followed by the cottagers up in the Whiteshell in the past. My understa nding is that in the past if the cottagers wanted their roadways cle ared they had to prepare applicatio ns, take them to the Parks Office at Rennie, pay $50 or whatever the fee is and then they had very satisfactory clear ing servic es for the winter.

This past year has been very unsat isfactory and hope­ fully with the transfer to the Hi ghways Depar tm ent next year the level of service wil l be back up to where it was last year. MR. ORCHARD : Mr. Chairman, it's my under standing that just such a situ­ ation is being followed up right now. Cottage owners will make that same appl i­ cation to Parks personnel and the Parks personnel will liais e with our depar tm ent personnel to look after driveway cleaning and that type of mainte nance. - 1221 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 MR. CHAIRMA N: The Member for Emerson. MR. DRIEDGER : Mr. Chairma n, further to the questi oning that the Member for Rossmere had, maybe this is repetit ive but for clarification purposes, is there an agreement between the parks people and highways regard ing the mai ntenance of some of the Parks roads and snowploughing at the present time?; MR. ORCH ARD : Yes in some cases, but the Department of Highways primary responsib ility in parks is, first off, only the PR roads or the PTH roads within the park system and that is my respon sibility. MR.

DRIE DGER : Further to that I'd like to refer to an instance in the south east corner by Moose Lake where Hi ghway 308 goes through from 12 all the way up to Falcon Lake, and we have approximately six miles of road from Moose Lake to Birch Point; and what has happened on occasion is that a special machine has come out all the way, driving 30 miles with the blade up, to grade six miles of road and go back when we have our highways mach ines going right by there; and I'm wondering if it 's in the best interests of economy and serv ice if there could be some liaison worke d out between the parks people on servicing of some of these roads at the same time when they 're doing the PRs.

It makes it look a littl e awkward for the people in the area when a machine comes tearing down there. One day we have the government grader going by and the next day a machine comes em pty 30 miles to do six miles of road. If there could be some synchronization of policy worked out it would look an awful lot better. MR. ORCHA RD: Mr.

Chairman, a sim ilar sort of arrangement as to what I described for the Member for Rossmere, a liaison with the Parks Branch is cer tainly possible but not always arranged, in other words Hi ghways Depart ment equipment is not going to make that plough pass without the specific reques t of the Parks people and it 's been a problem with the liaison between the two depart­ ments but that's being trimmed up. MR. DRIEDGER : One further que stion then. Would the onus be on the Parks people to request this arrangement with these people or could that be worked out jointly between the two? MR. ORCH ARD: Mr.

Chairman, the Hi ghways Depart ment will go in on the request of the Parks Branch. The department personnel have no authority to plow that six mile stretch as you indicate without the requ est of Parks Branch. We can 't make our claim back then. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for Burr ows. MR. HAN USCHAK: Yes, one que stion with respect to maintenance of roads and parks. Is there provision within this appropriation for the mai ntenance of a road in the Whiteshell Provincial Park known as the Jarmoc Road? MR. ORCHARD : Mr. Chairma n, if the Jarmoc Road has a PR number on it we would maint ain it.

If it doesn 't have a PR number we won 't mainta in it. MR. HA NUSCH AK: I see. MR. CHAIRMA N: 4. (a). The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM : Yes, Mr. Chairman. We 're getting into the big money here and I think we should perhaps get a littl e more information from the Minister on what is happening in this depar tm ent. Where do we find the SMYs here on this? MR. ORCHARD: The Highway Maintenance has •• MR. ADAM : 771 • • • MR. ORCHARD: 771 is the number. - 1222 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 MR . ADAM: These are all people working on an hourly basis or is there any permanent staff outs ide of administration? MR. ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, the biggest maj ority of that 771 are hourly people . MR. ADAM : They would not then there fore come under the Civil Service . ls that correct? MR. ORC HARD : employee es . Well, they are cla ssi fied, Mr. Chairma n , as departm ental MR . ADAM : Therefore, their contracts are negotiated on an hourly basis with the MGEA? MR . ORCHARD : Wel l, the hourly rate and the hours of operation are negotiated with between the employees and the MGEA. MR .

ADAM : Are there any negotiations taking place at the pres ent time? MR. ORCH ARD: The MGE A is negotiating as mentioned between the Civil Service Comm ission and MGEA right now ; certain ly . MR . ADAM : Could the Minister, or is this not part of his jurisdiction, but could the Minister advise or does it make part of the contract, the agreement? When employees get overtime, how many hours do they work before they get over­ time? Mr. Chairman, normally, just as a

preamble, normally if you work eight hours you get a regular sala ry . If you go into overtime you get time and a half for a certain number of hours, and if you go over another certa in number of hours you get maybe double time . This is the question that I'm asking the Minister to provide for me. MR. ORCHA RD: We pay overtime rates, Mr. Chairman, on the basis of X nu mber of hours per week and then overtime after this target level is reached . It varies between classification of per sonnel within Maintena nce. Not everyo ne operates under the same strict rul es . MR .

ADAM : Then it's based on a weekly rate ; the overtime is based on hours worked per week? MR. ORCHARD : Wel l, Mr. Chairma n , it's based on both a daily rate for some type of employee and a weekly rate for others, and it's written into the agreement for each type of emplo yee, as to whether they are on a daily overtime calc ulation or a weekly ove rtime calculati on . MR. ADAM : I wonder if the Minister could now tell us what is the weekly hours , regular hours ; and what is the daily regular hours for the different classifications of people working , MR. ORC HARD : Well , Mr.

Chairman , that's all spelled out in the agreement which we don't have with us, but it's an agreement that is sanctioned by the MGEA on behal f of the employees with the departm ent and , you know, I would suppose , I don't think there is any reason why you shouldn't have an agreement if that would enable you to pursue this matter further . I don't think there is any restricti on. If there is , I will have to abide by it . MR.

ADAM : Well , I'm conc erned ; there has been complaints in the past where peopl e have worked ten hours a day and not get any over time, and if this is a matter for negotiation between the Civil Service Commission and MGEA , that's fine . But it seems to me we're being asked to authorize $37 milli on , almost $38 million, and surely we would like to have some information as to how the emplo yees are being looked after and their working conditions, and so on . Because I have had a number of complai nts over the years on this partic ular point . - 1223 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, if the Member for Ste. Rose has received compl aints from Highways Department staff employed under this appropr iation, he should carry out his responsibilitie s as an MLA repres enting those people and have them file a grievance. If they have a legitimate complaint as to the hours worked and the remune ration received for those hours of work or employment, it is written into their contract, and if there is a violation of either hours worked or pay, that can be rectified by the grievance procedure. It 's very straight"forward.

It 's been in existence for a nu mber of contr act years and hasn 't varied significantly. MR. ADAM : That is the reason why I am trying to get this information so that we know, really know what is going on. But if it is not available I don 't suppose we can pur sue it much further if we don 't have the information to deal with these comp lain ts, it then becomes difficult to deal with them. MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, if the Member for Ste.

Rose would like to give me specifics right now on a particular em ployee 's complaint, I will certainly pur sue that posthaste if he has an example that he could give me today. MR. ADAM : Mr. Chairman, if we had the information that I have asked for here today, when someone comes to us and makes a complaint in regard to overtime or working conditions, we can probably give him the inform ation right away without having to go through a whole motion of grievances and going to his steward or to whoever is looking after this.

That doesn 't always work to the best advantage anyway going through the stewards and so on, shop stewards, whoever is in charge. Perhaps we could, if there is no inform ation available on that, per haps the Minister could tel l us then if the approp riation for last year, what part has been expended. MR. ORCHARD : The appropr iation for Maintenance was part of the special warrant in which we had increased funding into the Maintenance Program, so we 're overex pended. MR. ADAM : Yes, there was a spec ial warrant for Maintenance; was that $6. 4 mi llion or $6.6 million? MR. ORCHA RD: Almost $6. 6 million, Mr.

Chairman. MR. ADAM : $6. 6 million for last year, which br ings us up to $42 million for Maintenance? MR. ORC HARD: No, it doesn 't, Mr. Chairma n, because $5. 4 million of that is att ributed to the Maintenance Program, but in deducting other aspects - I'l l give him an exact figure here. The Member for Ste. Rose could add $2,860,000 to the $32,175,000.00. MR. ADAM : $268? MR. ORCHA RD : No, $2,860,000.00. MR. ADAM : Oh, $2,860,000 to the $35 million? MR. ORCH ARD : No, no, to the $32 million. MR. ADAM : Oh, here. MR. ORCHARD: Now, Mr.

Chairman, to help understand, a portion of that is in the add itional wages, as I explai ned yesterday, that we 're not, never are, can­ not properly be budge ted for because we don 't know what the increase is going to be granted by the Civil Service when we draw up the Estimates; and then the other thing is that last winter we had a prol onged maintenanc e period, as the Member for Ste. Rose can well appreciate with the excessive amounts of snow, and then we had a prol onged spring which requ ired more than norma l upgrading of the roads, the - 1224 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 provincial roads, the non-su rfaced roads, to br ing them back into condition after the tough spring that we went through last year. And that 1 s the additional amounts that are involved in that overexpenditure. MR. ADAM : And of the $6 million, there is $3.8 million - $2.816 million added to the Maintenance Pro gram from 6.6 of a special warrant. MR. ORCHARD: About $2,860,000 .00. MR. ADAM : Yes, and so there is MR . CHAIR MAN: The hour of 4:3 0 having arrived, I move that committee rise. Comm ittee rise. SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE MR.

CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats ( Radisson) : This committee will come to order • I wou ld ask the honourable members to turn to Page 16 of the Main Est imates, Department Civil Service, Reso lution No. 25, item 1. Civil Service Commission, (

a) Salaries. The Honourable Minister. MR. MacMASTER : Mr. Chairma n, I'd like to take this opportunity to review some of the major activities in the area of personnel administration undertaken by the Civil Service Commission over the past year in the implementation of govern­ ment policy in this important qrea of personnel management. You may recal l, Mr. Chairman, that our government made the dec ision, impl emented through last years Estimates, which central ized responsibility for total per sonnel ma nagement function in government back with the Civil Service Commission.

Much of the activity of the commission during the past fiscal year has been highligh ted by the reorganization of the various functions within the commission and has involv ed the integration of responsibilities for cla ssification, wage and salary admin istration, personnel records administration, staff training and deve lopment, staff relations and coll ective bargaining, with former respon­ sibiliti es in the area of recruitment, selection and appeals. The natu re of that reor ganization, Mr.

Chairma n, and the functional respon­ sibili ties of the various divisions and branches within the Civil Service Commission are out lined in detail in the 62nd Annu al Report of the Civil Service Commission, which I tabled in the Legislature, Friday, Febru ary 29th. I believe that a review of that report confirms that each of the divisions and branches within the commission are working effici ently and effectively and that the re­ organization has succeeded in accomplishing our goal of streng thening and revita lizing the role of the Civil Service Commission.

Centralization of the personnel function has proved successful not only with respect to providing a closer relationship among the various components of per­ sonnel management but also through the provis ion of a more comprehen sive personnel ser vice to departments of government which are the major recipients of the service provided by the comm ission. One area of accomplishment I'd like to address, Mr. Chairma n, involves the com­ mitment outlined in my remarks last year to rational ize the various categories of employment which our government found to exist within the Civil Service.

I •m pleased to advise that as a result of an extensive review of the categories of emplo yment over the past year, a new and fairer system for categorizing provin cial emp loyees into three categories, as opposed to the previous five, has been accomplished. The new system is designed to tighten up the definition, control and accountability of the various categories of provincial employees.

The system is consistent with recommendations from the Manitoba Government Employ ees' Association and my government's written commitment to end the abuses and in­ equities which had developed under the previous admi nistration. Provincial employees will be categorized as regular, term or contract emplo yees. Regular emplo yees are those selected through the norma l Civil Service competition who carry a continuing function in a department and have all the - 122 5 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 rights and privileges of permanent status. Term employees encompass the previous categories of ter m, casual, and de partmental and will be used to meet staffing requ irem ents on short-term projects, as well as for other contingencies such as emergency reli ef, over load, seasonal, and sessional empl oyment of either a full­ -time or part-time nature.

The contract employment will be utilized only where special knowledge or exp ertise is required which is not available to the Civil Service, where outside ob jectivity is of a particular importa nce, and where the emp loyment is of a temporary, non-reoccur ring or specialized nature.

I am pleased to advise that the new system for categori zing employees, which has been approved by Cabinet, is consistent with various underst andings reached with the Manitoba Gover nment Employees Association, and we will be working closely with the union in the implem entation of the new system and placement of effected employees into the appropriate categories. Another accomplishment, Mr. Chairma n, re lating directly to the subject of categories of empl oyment, has been the fact that for the first time all categories have been rep orted by the Civil Service Commission in the annual report.

This will hopefully end the per ennial confusion and debate over employment statistics in the government service. In past years the annual report included only per­ manent civil serv ants and term employees paid on a regular bi-weekly basis. The most re cent report for the first time reports all employm ent, including contract, casual, dep artmental, seasonal and all other employees paid on a shift for a time­ -worked basis. The emplo yment figures within the report, which are set out on Pages 21 to 24 represent a snapshot picture of the government's total employment figures as of December 31, 1979.

The figures are consistent with those that our government has re leased from time to time, and indicate a general redu ction of approxima te ly 2,000 employees since we assumed office in October of 1977. While total employment is down by that amount, it is int eres ting to note that regular, which is permanent employ­ ment, is up by appro ximat ely 163 employees during 1979 . This is refle cting the government's commitment to convert term employees who had been employed by the province for at least 24 months and whose jobs were judged to be required on an ongoing basis.

That commitment was made to the Manitoba Government Employees Association last June and over 300 em ployees, plus an additional 270 positions have been converted from term to regular status. As a follow-through to our commitment to end the abuse of contract em ployment, it can be seen that the number of contact employees has dropped dramatic ally over the past two years to 144 in 1979 , compared to 1, 019 in 1977. In terms of total empl oyment for the three years compared, the figures reflect 15, 35 3 in 1979, 15, 297 in 1978 and 17, 238 in 1977.

The slight increase in 1979 over 1978 is attributed to dep artmental, casual, shift and hourly paid employees which are up from 3,334 in 1978 to 3,65 3 in 1979 , as a result of an increase in additional term and shift empl oyees at the provincia l' s mental health and correctional institut ions. As a result of the improved system for categorizing all employees into three major categories, the rep orting of empl oyment statistics will be much simplified and more comprehen sive for future annual reports.

Another impo rtant initiative undertaken by the Civil Service Commission in the past year, which has been fully endorsed by our government, has been the movement towards a deleg ation of recru itment and se lection authority to de partments of government as provided within The Civil Service Act. Dele gated staffing authority is being granted only where de partments meet specific criteria set by the Civil Service Commission, and is being implemented through a signed, written agreement between the Civil Service Commission and the Deputy Minister of the de partment conc erned.

Where dele gated authority has been granted it will be subject to a close audit and scrutiny against standards set by the Civil Service Commission. At the present time, dele gation has been granted, or agreem ents are in process of being signed with approxima te ly half a dozen government dep artments. It is anticipated that dele gation will not only strengthen the role, authority and accounta bility of dep artmental personne l managers, but will also greatly assist in red ucing the turnaround time of staffing departm ental vacancies, thereby achiev ing greater efficiency and productivity of service.

Other advantages include the establishment of a basis for the audit of person ne l practices in de partments and an enhancement of the Civil Service - 1226 -

Wednesday , 19 March 1980 Commission's respons ibility in monitoring and reviewing personnel mana gement in government. An add itional benef it wil l be the provision of a cl ear , delineation between the role of the Civil Service Commi ssion and the role of the departm ental personnel managers. Concurrent with the delegated authority , the Civil Service Commission has implemented an effective means of auditing and mon itoring selection procedures within departments to ensure complia nce with The Civil Service Act.

If for any reason it is perceived that dele gation is not working within a particu lar departme nt , the agreement contains the provision that the authority can be readily cancelled through a request from either party. The concep t of delegat ion of staffing authority has existe d for many years with the feder al government and other provin cial jurisdict ions , and is considered a responsible and progressive step in the development and encoura gement of sound, personnel manag ement practices within the Manitoba Civil Ser vice.

In the area of staff relations and collect ive bargaining , Mr Chairm an, I am pleased to report that the government has establ ished what I believe is an ex­ tremely effect ive working relatio nship with the various bargaining groups within the Civil Ser vice as ev idenced by the successful achievem ent of collec tive agree­ ments negotiated at the bargaining table for all bargaining groups last year.

In keeping with my government's phil osophy of emphasizing consultation and open dialogue as the most effective approach to labour relatio ns , I am pleased to re­ port that we have made extens ive and successful use of the joint council as a mechanism of discus sing various topics of mutu al interest to both the union and the government.

We have used this process to suc cessfully implement amendments to The Civil Service Act which had been requested by the association, and in addition , have set up several joint committees or sub-committees of joint counsel to examine certain specific areas of conce rn , both to the union and to management. For ex ample , Mr.

Chairman , there are currently joint union management com­ mi ttees rev iewing such important items as essential servic es , a rev iew of labour management legislation as it applies to the civil ser vice employees , and a review of the potential impact of technological change , example , the office of the fut ure within the Civil Ser vice.

Other matters which have been successfully disc ussed or im plemented through joint counsel include a leave of absence provision for MGE A pres idents , develop­ ment of an apprenticeship training program , and the creation of the Health and Safety commit tees in government departments. Emphasis on the constructive use of joint counsel and an open and consultative approach to labour management relations will be contin ued throughout the coming year. At the present time , Mr.

Chairman , negotiations for the revision of the various collect ive agreements within the government employees are well under way for the 1980-81 contract year , and we are hopeful that again, satisfactory resolution will be attained at the bargaining table without work stoppages or staff disru ption. Another very im portant area of activity undertaken during the past year , Mr. Chairm an, has involved the confirmation of the government's commitment to equal opportunity , equal employm ent opportunity within the Manitoba Civil Service.

Within the past year I issued a statement to my coll eagues in Cabinet conf irming our government 's commit ment to the concept of equal employ ment opportunity within the Manitoba Civil Service. We must ensure that all segments of society have an equal opportunity to enter the Civil Service on the basis of open compet ition and to advance according to the relative abil ity consistent with the basic precepts of the merit principle.

Respons ibility for the implementation of government policy in this area rests with the Civil Service Commiss ion, which has been developing a program over the past months designed to facilitate the outreach recruitm ent of special segments of the population , not proportionately represented within the Manitoba Civil Service. This would include such target groups as women , physically and mentally handicapped , nat ive people , older worker s, and economically disa dvanta ged persons.

Over the past year a number of significant events relative to the imple­ mentat ion of equal employment opportunity occurred within government. An Equal Employm ent Opportunity Committee compri sed of representatives from the Civil Service Comm ission, the Women's Burea u, along with special resour ces from outside agencies, sponsored seminars for government personnel managers in the area of employment of women and the employment of the physically handicapped. The seminar on the emplo yment of women was presented in co-operation with the Women's Bureau, - 1227 -

Wedne sday, 19 March 1980 while the seminar on the employment of the handicapped was organized jointly with Equality Employment, an organization created to promote the employment of physically handicapped people. The commi ttee has also been in consultation with the federal government and with outside agencies in ter ms of developing similar initiatives with other target popul ation groups. I'm pleased to announce, Mr.

Chairma n, that as part of the re-organi zation of the commission that has taken place over the past year, a specific equal emplo yment opportunity secti on within the commission has been created and staffed with two professional staff members who will be devoting their full time to working with departm ents of government in identifying opport unitie s for special placemen t. They will also be identifying and establishing contracts with special interest groups and professional organizations which represent or work with target population groups.

Now that the organization of the Commission has been final ized and the Equal Employment Opportunities

Section has been staffed, Mr. Chairman we can promise a concentrated and effective effort in achieving the equal employm ent opportunity goals as established by my government. Another program area worth mentioning, Mr. Chairma n, which was allocated additional staff resources in last year's Estimates, and which is continuing to pro vide an extremel y effective and valuable service to employees and departments of government, is the Employee Health and Counse lling Program.

The objective of this program is to provide heal th and counselling assistance to employees who have developed health problems by utilizing every reasonable means to restore them to normal work perfo rmance and productivity. In addition to the heal th counselling assistance provided to employees, this

section prov ides extens ive supervisory training to managers and supervisors throughout government departments in handling heal th and performa nce related problems. The program has the full support and co-operation of the Manitoba Gover nment Emp loyees Association, and provides a ser vice of self or supervis ory initiated referra ls, case consultation and assessment and the arrangement for the appropriate treatment where required .

Due to the fact that the number of referra ls has been increasing steadily each year it has become increasingly difficult to carry on the training program and still provide adequate counselling assessment. Therefore, the program has been expanded through the provision of additional resources last year. More detailed expla nation of the program and the statistics on its casel oad and success rate are provided in the annual report which has been submitted. But I'm pleased to report on the high level of success and acceptance that this impo rtant program has received. The final area that I'd like to touch on, Mr.

Chairma n, is the work being done by the Training and Development Branch of the Civil Service Commission, which offers a wide variety of courses and workshops designed to improve and develop the knowledge and perf ormance of empl oyees in the Civil Service. As the annual report indicates, the branch attracted a recor d attendance of 4,122 participants during 1979, up from the 197 8 level of 3,784.

Of particular relevance has been the prov­ ision of a number of courses designed to improve the level of management perform­ ance and accountability throughout the Civil Service, along with a general emph asis on practical skills devel opm ent to assist employees in improving their perfor mance in many areas directly related to their daily job requirements. The provis ion of training and develop ment opport unities to Civil Servive emp loyees is an extremely impo rtant function provided by government and I person­ ally fully support the efforts of the Comm ission in this area.

Complimentary to the initiatives in the area of Management, Training and Develop ment it is worth noting that the Civil Service Commi ssion has developed a propo sal which has been approved by Cabinet involving the deve lopmen t of a comprehensive ma nagement devel opm ent plan.

The initial phase will involve the devel opment of a perfor mance-based class ification and compensation plan for ex­ cluded management classifications, which will then be followed through with specific proposals in the areas of manpower planning, perf ormance eval uation, man­ power develop ment and training, executive search and executive compensa tion. The purpose of the plan is to streng then management identity and deve lop an integrat ed approach to those areas which can contribute to upgrading the level of management ski lls in government. - 1228 -

Wedne sday, 19 March 1980 Looking ahead to 1980, Mr. Chairman, areas of emphasis will include the design and impl entation of the Personal Aud it Program which will streng then the Commission 1 s ability to review and monitor personnel practices within government service ensuring consistent and equitable application of the provisions of The Civil Service Act, regulations, and policy direc tives.

In addition, the Commission will be developing , as I have indicated, more def inite action in the area of equal employment opportunity and will be exami ning such matters as job restructuring, greater emphasis on educational programs, and the achievement of a higher level of departm enta l participation.

Throughout 1980 it is antic ipated that several dele gated recru itm ent and selection authority implementing a strong audit function to ensure reg ulations. additional depart ments will be and the Commission will be compliance with the Act and Collect ive bar gaining will again compris e a maj or area of the Comm ission's activity du ring 1980 , in that all Civil Service agreements are scheduled for renewal effective March 3lst, 1980. Finally, Mr.

Chairman, the Commission intends to continue emphasis in the area of management, development and upgrading and it is hopeful that the major com­ ponents of an integrated ma nagement develo pment plan will be in place by the end of the ye ar. MR. CHA IRMAN: Would the Honourable Minister invite his staff in now if he cares to. Before I acknowledge the next speaker I would just announce that we don't have a Minister's Salary under this Department and therefore I will be allowing a pretty wide -ranging debate under this Item.

So anything that comes under Civil Service Commission will be allowed to be debated under this Item. The Honourabl e Minister. MR. MacMASTER: If the members would like I would follow the same rou tine I followed with the Department of Labour and Manpower and give you a breakdown on person nel, if that is what you would like. MR. CHAIRMAN: Agreed? MR. MacMASTER: You don't want that? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIA M JENK INS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appre ciate the Minister's offer, but I wanted to make a few remarks before the Minister, and I agree with you, Mr.

Chairman, that the main part of our critique of this Departm ent will be taking place, as you state, under Salari es. I realize that Other Expendit ures in the Civil Service , especially Item No. 2. are mainl y statutory and we may have som e questions on that. Before I proce ed, Mr. Chairman, I want to draw to the House's attention that when you first became Chairman of this Committee, or appointed, you asked me for some information on the position of being Chairm an. I want to assure the House that I didn't give you the information that you used last night of speaking to the Assembly from the Chair.

However, that is just something I wanted to ••• MR • CHAIRMAN: com ments. Remember I can acknowledge that, but I won't make any MR. JE NKINS: I want to thank the Minister for the introd uction that he has given us and I would say that it was an extensive introduction that he has made to this department and fortunately in the time allotted to me I won't have that much time to make a re ply. I note from what the Minister has said that there has been considerable changes within the Civil Servi ce Commission, mainly the changing of categories from 5 to 3 and someone said that was a good decision.

Well, time will tell and primarily I might state at this time that as far as my discus sion of this dep artment, I will be deal ing mainl y with the Minister's Annual Report, because I think that is in the main where we will be making our remarks. - 1229 -

Wednesday, 19 March 1980 The Minister has said that he will give us a brea kdown and I hope that when we next meet tomorr ow that the Minister wil l have that and if we could have that in a table form, if that is not asking too much of the Minister and his staff, we would apprecia te that very much. The Minister spoke much about the dele gation of the recruitm ent authority to vario us departments and I mi ght say that it is making me wonder, Mr. Chairman, if this is the trend that we are working toward, just what the function of the Civil Service Commis sion will be.

Are we to gather from that, as the Minister has sta ted on Page 7, "A function of the Civil Service Commission is to act as an appeal body with respect to appeals on position re-clas sific ation initiated by employees on all appealable matters eminating from employees not covered by the provis ions of the collective agreement.

" Since the hiring authority will, if I understa nd the Minister correctly from the remarks that he made this afte rnoon, there is a working towards the dele gation of the hiring authority and just what function then is the Civil Service Commission role in recruitment and selection of emp loyees for the Civil Service?

This is one of the things that when the present government took office that they accused this government of, of bypass ing the Civil Service Commission, that recr uitment was taking place elsewhere, maybe under various categories, but now we are going to find that recrui tment and selection of permanent, not the term or contract empl oyees, are going to become in some cases maybe the sole function of the various departments involved.

And I see a lessen­ ing of the authority, of the function and role of the Civil Service Commission, if this is the goal and aim to which the present government and the pres ent Minister is working. We will deal with that, Mr. Chairman, in fair length when we get to that portion of the Minister's report. The Minister also stated that they were very happy with the contract negotiations that are taking place currently between the government on one hand and the Manitoba Gover nment Employees Association on the other.

I just wonder if the Minister happened to read today's newspaper and I won't el aborate on it at this time, because I don't have the time. --(Interjec tion)-- Well, if my reading of the news report is wrong, then I will stand to be corrected, but I unde rstand from what was stated in today's news­ paper, all is not as rosey as the Minister would like us to believe it is. Or was it radio? --(Int erjection)-- Mr. Dewar has made a statement that contract ne gotiations are dragging out and I will make it my business to find out exactly what that statement was.

The Minister also said that this department is looking into essential services and how it MR. CHA IRMA N: The hour is 4: 30. Committee rise. Cal l in the Speaker. The Chairman reported upon the Committees' del iberations to Mr. Speaker and requ ested leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Springfie ld, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION pre sented and carried. MR. SPE AKER : The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERC IER: Mr.

Speaker, by agreement I would move, sec onded by the Honourable Minister without Portfolio, that this House do not adjourn. MOTION presented and carried and the House accord ingly adjourned until 2: 30 tomorrow afternoon (Thu rsday). - 1230 -