LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 25 May, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKE R, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions ... READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. I'm advised that the petition conforms with the practices and privileges of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: The Petition of Pine Ridge Golf Club Inc., praying for the passing of

An Act to amend

An Act to incorporate Pine Ridge Golf Club. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: On Friday last, a recorded vote was requested on a motion that the report of the Committee of Supply be received. Because it was then after adjournment time, I advised the House that I would put the vote on the motion today. Call in the members. The question before the House is that the report of the Committee of Supply be received.

A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS Ashton, Baker, Cowan, Cummings, Desjardins, Doer, Dolin, Evans, Harapiak (Swan River), Harapiak (The Pas), Harper, Hemphill, Kostyra, Lecuyer, Mackling, Maloway, Parasi uk, Pawley, Plohman, Santos, Schroeder, Scott, Smith (Ellic e), Smith (Osborne), Storie, Uruski, Wa lding, Wasylyc ia-Leis. NAYS Birt, Brown, Carstairs, Conn ery, Derkach, Downey, Driedger , Ducharme, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Hammond, Johnston , Kovnats, Manness, Merci er, Mitchelson, Nordman, Orchard, Pankratz, Roch. MR. CLERK: Yeas 28; Nays 21.

MADAM SPEAKER: The motion is accordingly carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour abl e Minis ter of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Governments, health professionals, educators and community groups around the world have combined forces to combat the tragedy of Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome. In a short time we have learned much about this disease, but clearly there is much more to learn and much more that can be done in prevention and in education as we wait, with hope, for the eradication of this disease.

While all Manitobans must be concerned about the spread of AIDS, it is important that this concern not lead to panic, but rather be channelled responsibly into taking the steps necessary for personal protection and control of the disease's spread. Beginning immediately the Manitoba Government will unde rtake a numb er of new initiatives in the battle against AIDS. These initiatives will focus on prevention, education and broadly-based community support and involvement. Over the next while significant additional financial and human resources will be committed to continue and to escalate the fight against AIDS.

Manitoba Health staff will be expanded to include a health educator and nurse epidemiologist to work exclusively in the area of AIDS. With the support of this new staff, the Sexually Transmitted Disease Control Unit will work closely with community groups and high risk groups to identify and implement the most effective educational strategies. Manitoba Health is launching an expanded public information campaign to ensure that all Manitobans have access to information about this disease. This campaign is being designed in consultation with community groups and various government agencies and departments.

We will be working closely with the Federal Go vernment and will be dr awing on the experiences of other jurisdictions. The campaign will include the imme diate development and broad distribution of appropriate information in a variety of formats. A mass media campaign is being targeted for the fall of this year. An interdepartmental committee has been establised to be chair ed by Manitoba Health, to ensure that all govern ment de partments ex amine the potential implications of this disease for their respective areas.

Manitoba Health officials have been asked to meet with hospital officials to review safety procedures, ensuring their adequacy and their use. Under the leadership of Manitoba Education, and in cooperation with Manitoba Health, an education council on AIDS will be established to provide a link between the government, educators and young people. This advisory board will have among its participants the Department of Education, the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, the Manitoba Teachers' Society, community colleges, and universities, and community groups involved in AIDS education.

I must further acknowledge the cooperation of my col league, the Mini ster of Ed uca tion, for that 2312

Monday, 25 May, 1987 department's work in ensuring that the resources of Manitoba's public school system are mobilized to inform young people about AIDS. In 19 85 Mani toba Education issued guidelin es for school divisions on the care of students carrying the AIDS virus. Cu rrent ly, new teach ing resources are being developed for use in the province's mand atory health curriculum, and additional upda ted information is also being prepared for use with the new family education optional unit.

Staff of the Health and Education Departments are working closely together to ensure that this material is prepared in an accu rate and age­ appropriate form. Madam Speaker , these new initiatives are part of our evolving strategy to deal with AIDS. We are continuing with many of the programs and initiatives already under way and will be looking forward to working more closely with other governments and groups already involved in this area. Since 1985, a subcommit tee of the Manitoba Advisory Committee on Infectious Diseases has been providing advice to Manitoba Health on AIDS.

In 19 85, Manitoba Red Cross began heat treatment of blood concentrates and began screening all dona ted units of blood for the AIDS antibo dy. The Cadham Provincial Laboratory began diagno stic testing for AIDS in 1985. The Village Clinic has received funding from Ma nit oba He alth and from the Federal Government and is providing educational and support services to high risk groups. Manitoba Health staff have given hundr eds of lectures and presentations on AIDS to health care profess ionals, education groups and community organizations.

Over 30 public nur ses have now been trained to provide in formation on AID S in their communities. A sym posium held earl ier this mo nth was attended by over 400 health care professionals. And the communit y-organiz ed AIDS Awareness Week did much to in form and educate Manitobans. In addition, Madam Speak er, we will continue to do everything possible to control the spread of AIDS and to identify as many carriers as possible through what is widely regarded among experts as the most effective means - and that is voluntary testing and voluntary contact tracing. The medical consensus on this issue is very clear.

Manda tory testing is not recommended at present for any groups, ind ividuals, or situations. Madam Speaker, I would like to extend to all members of the House and the mem bers of the media, an invitation to a two-hour briefing on this subject. Such a briefing will be scheduled at a time most convenient to mem bers of the Ho us e and will provide an opportunity for questions and discussions. It is my intention to regularly upda te the House and the general public on the changing situation in Man itoba regarding AIDS.

In conclusion, Ma dam Speaker , let me remind members of this House and all Manitobans that in fighting this disease we must also fight igno rance and unwarranted fears. I believe we can and must do this. Yes, AIDS is a serious health problem, but there are steps that we can all take to control its spread and to protect ourselves. Following those steps - education and understanding are the most effective tools available to us in the battle against AIDS. Thank you, Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, I thank the Minister for his policy statement issued on behalf of his government regard ing their policy changes, in terms of providing information on AIDS.

Madam Speak er, I suppose at the outset one could ind icate our concern on this side of the House, in terms of - and I'm sure our concern is not unique to this side of the House, it is shared by all mem bers of the House, indeed, probably most members of the public - that in the threat of AIDS a great deal of knowledge needs yet to be acquired, i.e., on how really serious the disease is in terms of its spread - for instance, the heterosexual commun ity, a question that, to date, is probably answered in several ways, and is not definitive at this stage of the game.

So I think if there's one ind ication in the Minister's statement that is important to us and to all Manitobans, that is, Madam Speaker, the stress on education. Because I think it's been pointed out over the past numb er of months, by various reporters, various researchers doing analysis on the spread of AIDS, that what was at one time, for instance, a year ago a worst case scenario on the involvement of AIDS and its spread to the general population has become the norm, if you will.

So that, as our knowledge grows, so does the concern we all must have on its impact on us as citizens, and particularly in Manitoba, where the Minister has given us, in the last series of Estimates, an upda ted cost on caring for one AIDS patient in the provincial health care system being $1 00,000 per year.

Madam Speak er, I suppose if I could offer to the Minister our continued support we will have differences of opinion as to how best to proceed from time to time, but that does not detract from our willingness to work in any way possible with the government, and with health care profess ionals to bring more knowledge and, hopefully, eventual ly, to bring a control and a cure to the disease AIDS in the Province of Manitoba, and indeed the world as a whole. Madam Speaker , my one comment to the Minister and to the Prem ier. It seems to me that there are several things lacking in this government policy.

First of all, there is a mention of two additional staff people to assist in the AIDS awareness, in terms of education, in terms of work with the STD branch of the Minister's department. Given the threat of AIDS and its potential downs tream cost, I think that might be a flaw in the Minister's policy which no doubt he may well, at some point in time, move to addr ess.

Second ly, Madam Speaker, there is no mention in this policy of any dollar number that's dedicated to the education program, and other programs designed, presumably to inform Manitobans of the threat of AIDS; and thirdly, any dollar figure whereby Manitobans can know what is happening within government branches within the Department of Health to communi cate with Manitobans in general, be it at conferences, etc., etc. 2313

Monday, 25 May, 1987 Now that, to me, is unusual from a government that will make press releases on $15 Cultural Affairs grants and turn out press releases on that , but they would not put a dollar figure , that they are willing to commit on behalf of Manitobans, for education and control of the spread of AIDS . Madam Speaker , I hope now that this policy is announced , that Dr.

Margaret Fast will again be able to resume, what I assume is to be , a multitude of requests to appear in panel discussions and other public forums , wherein experts on AIDS can be made available for dissemination of information to the public at large because it is through that process that we all begin to understand what AIDS presents as a threat to us, as individuals , and to us as a society, wherein the costs can be downstream very enormous to us. I thank the Minister for his statement today . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs . HON. G.

DOER: Yes, Madam Speaker, I'm pleased to table the Urban Affairs '87-88 Supplementary Information for Legislative Review. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. B. URUSKlintroduced, by leave, Bill No. 41 ,

An Act to amend The Animal Husbandry Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'elevage. (Recommended by His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor) INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 54 students from Grade 11 from the West Kildonan Collegiate under the direction of M r. Ken Butler . The school is located in the cons tituency of the Honourable Minister of Finance. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon.

I would also like to direct the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's · Gallery where we have the pleasure of having with us this afternoon His Excellency Rafael Hernandez Martinez, the Cuban Ambassador for Canada, and Mrs. Hernandez . On behalf of all the members , we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon . ORAL QUESTIONS Western Premiers' Conference - position paper, tabling of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is for the Prem ier. Tommorrow begins the Western Premiers ' Conference in Humboldt, Saskatchewan.

I wonder if the Premier has a statement or a position paper that he will be presenting to the conference that he could table in the Legislature here this afternoon . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I don 't have a position pape r, as such . Upon my return, I certainly will look forward to giving all members a complete report; at the same time I'll be tabling, of course, the communiques that are issued pursuant to the discussions that do take place in Humboldt at the Western Premiers ' Conference . MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Premier could indicate whether he will be presenting any policy papers or any position papers on issues to be discussed at that conference in Humboldt. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, we'll certainly be dealing with a number of areas from our perspective . First and foremost will be the western agricultural situation which is critical and suggestions by which that situation can be better resolved , and looking at various means , along with our western colleagues.

Secondly, the entire question of western economic diversification will be an area that we'll be outlining and presenting and, of course, receiving input from the other provinces. There will also be discussion on matters including tax reform , the matters of trade , probably some discussion, vis-a-vis the constitutional item that is coming up on June 2 in Meech Lake. Meech Lake - constitutional items - Manitoba's position MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Premier could indicate when will Manitoba 's positions and information on those issues be made available to members of the Opposition. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I will be certainly making available to members of the House , positions upon my return, in regard to all the areas . I'd like to just emphasize to the Leader of the Opposition the discussions at Western Premiers' Conferences are tending to be more and more informal, rather than the presentation of formal presentation papers, but there are discussions , mainly now simply involving the Premiers, dealing with the items on the agenda, rather than formal position papers, as is the opposite to the case at the Premiers' Conference in August .

Welcome Home Program - readmissions to institutions MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Community Services. Madam Speaker , we have always supported the Welcome Home Program, but we've also pointed out the danger areas and the shortfalls in this program. Does the Minister now agree that the arbitrary figure 2314

Monday, 25 May, 1987 of moving 220 people into the communi ty, before the community was ready for them, is the reason for the high number of read missions to institutions? MADAM SPEAKER: Will the honourable mem ber rephrase his qu estion, so it doesn't seek an opinion? MR. E. CONNERY: Wo uld the Minister re-exam ine her decision to move 220 people into the communi ty? The community was not ready for them and, therefore, that was the reason for the high numb er of read missions to the institution. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M.

SMITH: On the contrar y, Madam Speak er, we consider the We lcome Home project, which was und ertaken in a cooperative and very modest-paced mann er, in cooperation with the commun ity, to have been highly successfu l.

In fact, the readmission figures, and again we had protocols established in 19 84, whereby the MDC regional staff service providers, and the regional admission and discharge comm ittees would review any case that requir ed readmission and, over time, this approach of consultation, plus the addition of alternative planning and availabi lity of crisis intervention has, in fact, kept the readmission rate to the very low, the historically low rate of 8 percent. MR. E.

CONNERY: To the same Minister, who has adm itted that it's very difficult to be readmitted to an institution, were some of those people readmitted, ones that were badgered and pressured to go into the community? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, not to my knowledge at all. In order to review the experience of the ones who've been readmitted, we have established a commit tee made up of: Dr. S. Kang, the Director at MDC, Dr. R. Lowther, who's the Psychology Director at MDC, and Dr. L.

Hardy, the Executive Director of Programs Branch, to review the circums tances of return, to see whether any of those over three years will give us any indication of improvements we can make in We lcome Home. But as we have been making the improvements as we moved, and as the readmission rate is very, very low - again, we want to improve where we can but we feel very pleased with the success of the program. Welcome Home Program - lack of stimulation MR. E. CONNERY: To the same Minister. We have claimed that day programs and activities have been inadequate in the Welcome Home Program.

We feel that the mentally handicapped in the Welcome Home Program are not being stimu lated and not being activated. This has been substantia ted by Moira Grahame, President of the Association of Communi ty Living. What is the Minister doing to make sure that people in the program do not just sit and vegetate? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speak er, I wish when the member asked a qu estion like that, he would put it into some kind of context. The entire day program in the community has been developed, standards have been developed in co­ operation with the Association of the MCRW.

There has been a very rapid expansion of great variety of day programs. The standards are in place. There has been a very large jump in the per diems. Again, the community has been extremely co-operative. No person is placed in the community unl ess there is a 24-hour plan and a day program provided for in that plan. So again, I categorically deny what the member opposite is implying. The fact that there is more dev elopme nt req ui red in the day prog ramming, vocational rehabilitation work for all mentally disabled persons is true, because the program has not yet developed to the full.

But for all the Welcome Home persons, a day program has to be in place, and has been put in place along with their placement in a residential location. Meech Lake Accord - approval to wording of limits of spending power MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speak er. My qu estion this afternoon is to the Premier of the province.

Has the Manitoba Government agreed to wording, which would give definition to the limits of the spending power of the Federal Government in the Meech Lake Accord which, according to Premier Bourassa this weekend, would give Quebec what it wants, and if so, would he release this word ing? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Ma dam Speaker, I thank the Member for River Heights for the question. As I ind icated upon my return from Meech Lake, the spirit of the agreement in Meech Lake, was one that we wholeheartedly supported. I wholeheartedly support also, the

interpretation provided to the Meech Lake agree ment. In sofar as spending power, as was enun ciated by the Prime Minister in the Federal House of Commons, it was the same

interpretation as inde ed I have provided upon my return from Meech Lake. I know that there are now differing

interpretations being provided, including differing

interpretation provided by Premier Bourassa. I have certainly asked the Attorney-General, legal advisors, to examine the word ing to ascertain whether or not ther e are ambiguities that we should be correct ing, any changes in wording that might ensure that the spirit of the spending power, as enunc iated by both myself and by the Prime Minister, is clearly reflected in the final, legal text. That is a process that is presently under way. Premier Robert Bourassa statement - does Manitoba support MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Ma da m Speaker, a supplementary question to the same Minister. Does the Ma ni toba Government su pport the statement again of Premier Robert Bourassa of: "We 2315

Monday, 25 May, 1987 don't want those national objectives to come in by the backdoor as norms in criteria, reducing the flexibility of the province to adopt different initiatives"? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speak er, I disagree with the position that has been taken by Premier Bourassa. In fact, any concern that I'v e had has been from the opposite direction, that any federal initiative by way of cost-shared progr amming in volving provincial jurisdiction must be compatible with national objectives.

In my view, that should be clearly spelled out, as the Prime Minister did in the House of Commons, as enacted by the Parliament of Canada. So I take strong exception to any suggestion on the part of Premier Bour assa that the wording ought to be loosened so there is no clear connection between national objectives and a particular national program that is being developed. I think that's contrary to the spirit of Meech Lake, contrary to what I had ind icated here upon my return from Meech Lake, contrary to what the Prime Minister ind icated in the House of Commons.

AIDS curriculum - stage of planning MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I thank the Premier for those very clear replies, Madam Speak er. I' d like to ask my final supplementary to the Minister of Education.

In light of the information which we received today from the Min ister of Health, can the Mini ster of Education tell the House at what stage is the planning of this new AIDS curricu lum, and will we have a new AIDS curriculum available for all school divisions by September of 1987, in that Winnip eg No. 1 has yet to hear anything from the Minister with regard to this new curriculum? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I think, as I've ind icated to the House on previous occasions, there is a

section on AIDS in the Family Life Option, which was introduc ed last year. I've ind icated that the work is ongoing for int roduction in the mand atory health curriculum at the present time, as well as a

section for inclusion at the high school level. It is certainly my intention to have that material available this fall and school divisions, including the groups mentioned in the Minister of Health's statement, will be involved and be knowledgeable about the material, as it's developed and as it's finalized, Madam Speak er. Vancouver school curriculum - part of Manitoba curriculum MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: With a final supplement ary, Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Education.

Has the Minister read the curriculum that is now being used in the Vancouver school division, and will it make up an essential part of our curriculum here in Man itoba? HON. J. STORIE: No, Madam Speaker, I cannot say I' ve read that particular curriculum. I do know that there are activities under way in every jurisdiction, to either upgrade or implement curriculum materi als with respect to AIDS.

The Department of Education, in conjunction with the Department of Health, is scouring material from every qu arter of the continent, in effect, to make sure that what is provided through our curriculum is not only the best material but presented in the most age-appropria te way. Madam Speaker, I'm convinced that when in fact we have the curriculum material available for review by teachers' associat ions and the AID S education community at large, that the material will be satisfactory and appropriate. AIDS - screening of prisoners MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Community Services. Can the Minister of Community Services indicate whether prisoners in our provincial jails are currently screened for AIDS? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister for Community Services and Corrections. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, in consultation with the Department of Health, we've been working at developing policies within all our institutions. In the correctional facilities, they're just people that are consider ed in the target, the risk groups, who are currently being screened . AIDS - segregation in prisons MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, in screening those high-risk group individuals in provincial jails, will the policy be to segregate those inma tes in the jails? HON. M. SMITH: There is a draft policy that has been developed in consultation with staff and with the inma tes, and the recommendation at the current time is that anyone who is found to be carrying the virus be kept either in the medical holding facility at the jail or, where appropriate, be given temporary absence and sent to the hospital.

These policies will be undergoing continual scrutiny and discussion to keep them up-to-date with current knowledge on AIDS and also along with educational programs for staff and for inma tes and regular access for them to information. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, will the identity of those prisoners testing antibody positive be kept confidential, as is provided in the new reporting system that was announced by the Minister of Health some six weeks ago? HON. M. SMITH : The information will be kept confidential, contingent with the degree of need on the 2316

Monday, 25 May, 1987 medical side. Obviously , there will be medical personnel in the prisons who will need to know. So again , that policy will be developed; the confidentiality will be protected to the extent it's consistent with the need to protect both staff and inmates . AIDS - male prostitute infected MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , a question to the Minister of Health . Over the last 10 days, questions have been posed which the Minister took under notice to provide an answer at a later date.

They involved questions about a male prostitute and questions about the accuracy of statistics provided by the Department of Health versus statistics provided by the clinic that was referred to in the Minister's statement . Does he have an answer for those questions? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: We tried to get information on the male prostitute . Staff was in contact with the counsellor, I believe, from the City of Winnipeg, who made the accusation or the statement, and that person claimed that this is true, but has refused to give us any information at all.

So it is there . I find that very odd, people who would make a statement like that and not give us the information. We can 't act without the information. The information could have gone to the responsible staff in the department. As far as the information, the information is that it was a statement made with information that didn 't jibe, the information that I'd given, that was supposedly if I remember the question, given by people in the Gay community. Is that the question?

And I understand that that is in an area where it is practically impossible to get exactly the number and the information, that this is more of an educated guess , well that's about all I can call it, but nobody really has the full information, so it might vary to some extent . I'm getting it double-checked again . I want this to be ready for all these questions to be able to be answered and asked at this seminar that I invited the members of this House, that sho uld be held very soon. Information officer of Gay AIDS Awareness Clinic more knowledgeable MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, given that the Minister announced a policy on the reporting of those individuals carrying the AIDS antibody; and that that reporting is now mandatory by physicians that the government be informed; how can it be that an information officer at a Gay AIDS Awareness Clinic , has more knowledge on individuals in Manitoba carrying the AIDS virus and suffering AIDS-related complex , than the Minister has under his new reporting system whereby physicians are required to report those people to his department? HON. L.

DESJARDINS : The only explanation as I said , is that th is is an guesstima te, this is not the facts of case-by-case and that was used by diffe rent groups. They have talked also about for every person that has AIDS, they say there are 50. That has pretty well been accepted, there are 50 people who must have the virus. This is very difficult, practically impossible to answer to the letter but we will compile all the information we have, as much as possible, whatever relevant will be.

The public will be informed; especially the committee and the Federal Government and so on will be given all the information and cooperation that we can give. Day Care spaces - criteria and priority to Carpathia, William Osler Learning and Growing Daycare MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member fo r Kirkfield Park . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Community Services, relating to day care spaces.

There are approximately 395 spaces that will be allotted to the present day care centres and I was wondering what criteria and what priority will be given to the centres of the Carpathia Children's Centre in River Heights, which currently is looking for 15 school­ age spaces, they don't require funding but, because of the regulations, can't expand; there's Sir William Osler Day Care preschool and school age which opened in September 1984 and has received no funding and the Learning and Growing Daycare Centre in Charleswood . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services . HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker, the total number of funded spaces under the Manitoba program will expand by 625 this year, and the allocation of those spaces has not yet been announced . We will review the distribution and we are in the proces s of reviewing the distribution of spaces by region and the local need along with the waiting list. So each of those centres we do have on our list and we ' ll be giving due consideration and I hope to announce those decisions in short order . MRS. G. HAMMOND: To the same Minister, Madam Speaker.

In her statement she indicated that 230 of the 625 new spaces would be going into new schools that are to be constructed, so there will be only about 395 to go around . Since she also indicated in her Estimates that the approvals would be by region and socioeconomic need , would the Minister be giving any priority to centres such as these which are in the River Heights area and not in what is supposedly the core, the River Heights and the Charleswood area? HON. M. SMITH: Well, Madam Speaker , the 230 spaces that will be going into new schools will be new spaces available to people in Manitoba. 2317

Monday, 25 May, 1987 The allocation, as I said, would go by region, by need and by their position on the waiting list. There are people with need in the area of River Heights; at least I'm familiar, certainly , with levels of need. Any population area has some people who are in very great need, and until we have enough spaces to meet all the needs, there will have to be judgment calls made. The staff are very conscientious in sorting out the readiness stage and the need level in the area, and they try their very best to be even-handed.

One evident result of that is the fact that although the population, urban and rural, is not exactly 50-50, we have come very close to a proportional num ber of spaces being approved in the non-urban areas as in the urban. So we are trying very hard to be fair in the allocation. Port of Churchill Development Board - Saskatchewan urged to reinstate support MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Madam Speak er, my question is to the Premier with regard to the Western Premiers' Conference.

Several weeks ago the Saskatchewan Government cut its support to the Port of Churchill Development Board which represents the interests of farmers in all three prairie provinces. I'd like to ask the Premier if he will be contacting the Premier of Saskatche wan directly at the Western Premiers' Conference with a view to urg ing the Saskatchewan Government to reinstate its support for this very important body and ind icate its support for this very important port? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, yes.

In fact, on Friday, I did raise this matter at noon with the Premier of Saskatchewan, poin ting out to the Premier of Saskatchewan that more Saskatchewan farmers indeed do ship their grain through the Port of Churchill than is the case with Manitoba farmers. I asked the Premier of Saskatchewan to ensure that that decision to delete the grant to the Port of Churchill be reviewed and be reinstated.

The Premier of Saskatchewan did agree to review the cut that had been made by the Saskatchewan Government in view of the comments that I'd made, and I certainly intend to further reinforce that tomorrow as well as, Madam Speak er, a concern that I have vis­ a-vis the cut to the Prairie Machine Testing Centre, which is located right at Humb oldt, which is the centre of the Wes tern Premiers' Conference itself. Gowler, Mitch, inquest into death MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My que stion is to the Minister of Communi ty Services.

Has the Minister order ed an inq uest into the death of Mitch Gowler, who was drowned while he was looking after a hand icapped person? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I am consulting with the Attorney-General. One of the problems had to do with whether or not there was evidence available, but I am consulting with the Attorney-General as to whether an inquest is appropriate. Gowler, Mitch - circumstances of death MR. A. BROWN: To the same Minister.

What measures has the Minister taken to date that would determine the circums tances leading up to this death? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, when there is a fatal ity, it is the police who do the investiga tion. What the department does is ask for information in its area of respon sibility and, in this case, we certainly were in im med ia te commun ication with the commu nity organization that was responsible for the mentally handicapped individual. Again, they are the people who should be consu lted furthe r.

We are of course concerned that reasonable care be taken whenever a mentally hand icapped person is away from the residence and, to date, that seems to have been the case. But as I said, I don't want to leave any stone unturned in this case, and I have asked the Attorne y-General to review the situation and see whether any further action on my

part is called for or could be helpful. Layoff of 4 worker assistant workers for post-mentally ill HON. M. SMITH: While I'm on my feet, Madam Speaker, on Friday the Minister of Health took a question from the Member for River Heights with regard to the termination of a work assistance program. This was a program that had been in place since 19 77, funded under the Vocational Rehabilitation Services Program. The staff were still on a term basis, Madam Speaker, and there was a review of the effectiveness of the program.

It operated in Winnip eg and central regions, and its purpose was to find employment for post­ mentally ill persons. In fact, the evaluation of the program did not show that the results justified its continuation. There was a very low success rate, just over 9 percent after three years and just over 23 percent over a period of three months. This compa red very unfavourably with the well over 50-percent retention rate of other agencies who are performing the same service.

So what we are doing now is lookin g to the Canadian Mental Health Association and the Federal Government to work out a program for the post-mentally ill similar to the one that Premier Personnel offers the mentally retarded. Gowler, Mitch - prevention of death MR. A. BROWN: My qu estion is to the same Minister. What has the Minister done to date that would assure Manitobans that a death such as this will not happen again? 2318

Monday, 25 May, 1987 HON. M. SMITH : Madam Speaker , I think I answered that in referring, No. 1, to the Attorney-General to see whether an inquest would be appropriate in this case ; and also in regard to the agencies, I've asked the department to review whether there are any policies or procedures that are our responsibility that should be improved or strengthened, and I've also asked the agency that is providing the service to the handicapped individual who was in the care of Mitch Gowler to carefully review their policies and procedures.

To date, Madam Speaker, I don't have anything specific that really I can report. There seemed to be more than reasonable precautions taken, but as I say, a tragic event like this calls for a very exhaustive review and I intend to pursue that review until we've followed all the paths . Education Resources Fund - status of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Education .

Earlier this year, he announced a $5 million fund for the school division should they negotiate a zero increase in salaries with the teachers; and in the latest information, at least three school divisions have negotiated a 4 percent increase in salaries for the teachers and this will probably set the pattern for the balance of the year. In light that the school divisions have set their mill rate and already sent out their bills, or at least most of them, to the taxpayers, does this mean that the program will lapse or will it still continue to the end of the year?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I think the Member for Fort Garry will recall that during the Estimates debate we dealt with this issue. I believe I indicated to him at that time that the Educational Resources Fund obviously would be in place until such time as all of the divisions had concluded their negotiations, Madam Speaker.

But the intent of the proposal that I made in December was that there be some long-term saving to the system, and that if that did not occur, then obviously , given the money that's already been provided, the 4.5 percent increase which the school divisions have at their disposal, is to accommodate the needs of the system; and those include the negotiated increases , whatever they may be, over the length of the negotiation process across the province . Education Resources Fund - criteria for MR. C.

BIRT: Given the fact , Madam Speaker , that the teachers are likely to settle for at least 4 percent throughout the province , will the Minister be changing the criteria for the allocation of this fund, taking a new set of criteria to Cabinet to allocate these funds to the school divisions? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker , I have not contemplated that at the present time.

I indicated that the 4.5 percent increase, $26 .9 million that has alread y been provided , in addition , as an increase to the funding of public schools this year is much in excess of what's happening in other provinces where we have a 1 percent reduction in education expenditures in Saskatchewan , 3 percent reduction in Alberta . Madam Speaker , I indicated when the proposal was announced that we would be going ahead with an increase in support to public education in line with inflation.

I believe the proposal that I offered was an option which may have been of use to the school divisions and the teachers during the collective bargaining process. It was their decision ; they had to cooperate, see some benefit in it for it work. Obviously, some divisions have already decided, along with their teachers, that negotiations would be carried out in a different way and that's completely within their right and no reflection whatsoever on the inten t of the program. MR. C.

BIRT: If there was a need for the educational funding that the Min ister set aside , namely the $5 million, and that need is still there, why does not the Minister introduce a new set of criteria to disburse those funds to the school division, to improve education in this province? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, the member has entirely missed the point. The fact , Madam Speaker , is that the proposal was to create a long-term saving for school divisions and for the province.

Madam Speaker , if that proposal would have been accepted; if school boards and teachers could have found a way to negotiate on non-salary items, the saving would have been in the order of $100 million over five years , money that could have been used by the province and by school divisions to expand the horizons , the educational opportunity. Madam Speaker, that was the intent. If, for their own reasons, school divisions and teachers chose to bargain on other issues of more importance to them at this time, that's certainly within their right to do so, and I said that at the time that I had made the proposal.

Water Services Board - conclusion of agreement MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you , Madam Speaker . I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. About a week ago, the First Minister responded to a question of mine indicating that his government was hopeful in concluding a general development agreement with Ottawa , with respect to water projects, etc .

My specific question to the Minister of Agriculture: Knowing that the Water Services Board has some $60 million worth of work on file, would a suc ces sful conclusion of that kind of an agreement with Ottawa advance , accelerate the work that is placed before the board? Madam Speaker, I'm asking this question specifically on behalf of Mayor Leth bridge of the Town of Ston ewall and his council , who are one of those applicants , who 2319

Monday, 25 May, 1987 look forward to seeing that work speeded up, if at all possible. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Ma dam Spea ker , I thank the honourable member for raising that issue with me. I want to indicate that our respective staffs of Agriculture and federal-provincial relations and Finance have been involved in discussions at the staff level. There appears now to be a political willingness out of Ottawa to, in fact, look at this whole area of infrastructur e to rural municipali ties.

And as my honourable friend points out, there are many projects, some $60 million, some of which have to be staged at the present time and done piece by piece because of the lack of annual funding. It's our hope that, if negotiations proceed, as the intentions appear to be from Ottawa, we may have an agreement within the next half year to a year, maybe sooner. But we're hopeful that an agreement of the kind that was signed in Saskatchewan would be possible for Manitoba as well. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, a supplementary question to the same Minister.

My specific question was: With the signing of that agreement with Ottawa, would that accelerate, advance the work

schedule now before the Manitoba Water Services Board? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker , yes, that certai nly would; in the same way that the previous agreements, which I believe were structured federal and provincial, where the federal funding went to larger communities and provincial funding went to smaller communities, and the projects were able to be basically dovetailed so that the amount of work could, in fact, be accelerated and projects would be completed at a much accelerated rate. MR. H. ENNS: I thank the Minister for that answer.

We'll await the successful signing of that agreement, then he can be assured he'll be hearing from us. Sherritt Gordon Mines - HBM and S - status of negotiations MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker , I have new qu estion to the Minister of Energy and Mines. I wonder if the Minister of Energy and Mines can give the House any upda te report with respect to the situation at Leaf Rapids.

Has the proposed sale of the Sherritt Gordon assets at Leaf Rapids to the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company advanced any furt her, or are we looking at possible mine closure at that site? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minis ter of Ene rgy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Yes, I thank the member for that question. I don't have anything definitive to report apart from saying that discussions and negotiations have been taking place. I would hope that they would reach a conclusion. They're still deep in negotiations, so I don't have any thing specific or definit ive to provide the mem ber.

I'm hopeful that there can be some arrangement arrived at. Certainly negotiations are in process, they aren't off, they're in process and I would hope that they would evolve successful ly. MR. H. ENNS: Just one final supplementary question to the same Minister, Madam Speaker. Has the department, or can the Minister confirm the suggestion that we are talking about 600 jobs in the event of an unsu ccessful transfer of property if this mine doesn't make it? HON. W. PARASIUK: The last report I had is that there are something in the order of 480 workers, but there are other people involved within the community itself.

So that in terms of the specific numb er of workers, there are 480 and I would think that there might be some 100 other people involved. So I couldn't confirm the 600 num ber, but 480 is the number that are employed by Sherritt Gordon. Multicultural Task Force - purpose of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Springfield. MR. G. ROCH: Thank you, Madam Speaker. To the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreat ion.

I would like to ask the Minister why she has appointed a Task Force at an estimated cost of $75,000 to the Ma nitoba tax payer , to develop and I quo te: "A comprehensive policy on mul ticulturalism for the Province of Manitoba," when that expertise is already willingly and readily available from the current leaders in the ethnocultural communities? Does the Minister not have any faith at all in the current leaders of those commu nities? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Ma dam Speaker .

I'm surprised at that question from the Member for Springfield because, in effect, the notion of a task force and a thorough review of all of our policies and the development of a comprehen sive multicultural policy, has come from those ethnocultural leaders; has been supported by ethnocultural communi ties right across this province; and is heartily end orsed by virtually every community that the member refers to.

And by way of evidence of that, Madam Speaker, I refer to the mee ting when this Ta sk Force was announced, when well over 200 individuals attended the announcement and made it abundantly clear to me, Madam Speaker, that this was in their best interests. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. 2320

Monday, 25 May, 1987 ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Governmen t House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker. I believe there is an inclination on the part of all members, to forego Private Members' Hour today, by leave. MADAM SPEAKER: Is that agreed? (Agreed) HON. J. COWAN: I, therefore, move, Madam Speaker, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Community Services and the Department of Crown Investments; and the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet in the Chair for the Department of the Attorney-General. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: Committee, will come to order . Mr. Minister, do you want to make a few remarks? HON. R. PENNER: Yes.

I had indicated last week that we had the Justice in Manitoba, key indicators, and I would ask that these be distributed to members of the committee who are interested. Secondly there had been a question about the parental child abduction process in ot_her provinces. I've a memo from the director of the Family Law Branch, a copy for the critic. It just gives a rough idea of the fact that because of certain amendments to the Code, at the moment the provisions under the Code are being utilized, where in other provinces,

whereas Manitoba is the only province where the Family Law Branch provides assistance to the Criminal Crown attorneys in the laying of charges. The national committee is looking at the model that we have developed, where police have direct access to the Family Law specialists within our branch and recommend that all provinces have similarly Family Law specialists to become involved in providing similar assistance to the police and Criminal Crown attorneys. So our model is attracting a lot of interest and attention , and I hope that in fact becomes the prevailing model.

I think that brings us, more or less , up-to-date on information requested . MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. When we adjourned on Friday, I think we were discussing 5.(b)(2)-pass. Am I correct? 5.(c)(1) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, can I ask the Attorney-General whether provincial judges are working to rule? HON. R. PENNER: That has been suggested. I h ave no information which corroborates that. I'm advised by the Director of Prosecutions that the situation is being monitored. - (Interjection)- Guess what that's about? MR.

CHAIRMAN: We'll adjourn the proceedings and go back to the House . (RECESS - Vote in House) MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, as I was saying, we'll keep the matter monitored. But I say there 's no evidence that has been reported to me that there is such a slowdown . MR. G. MERCIER: It has or it hasn 't been reported to you? HON. R. PENNER: It has been reported to me that there is, as yet, no evidence of a slowdown. MR. G. MERCIER: It has or it hasn't been reported to you? HON. R. PENNER: It has been reported to me that there is, as yet , no evidence of a slowdown . MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I believe the Attorney­ General indicated in the House that there are presently no negotiations with respect to salaries for provincial judges . Is that correct, and there are salaries being set for the fiscal year? HON. R. PENNER: The last salary increase which was by 0/C in December or January was retroactive to July 1, '86, and accordingly, working things on an annual basis, the salary issue in the normal course be reopened July 1, '87 . MR. G.

MERCIER: Does the Attorney-General agree with the statistics which indicate that the annual - if you look at the increases from April 1 of'82 to April 1 of '87 , at the end, works out to an annual percentage increase of 2.84 percent? HON. R. PENNER: If you take it from that period of time through , that's probably about right. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I don 't want to spend a great deal of time on this because I think the matter is best resolved by reasonable discussions between the Attorney-General and the Provincial Judges' Association, but it would appear, surely when we left office that there was a formula in place whereby the judge~ over a number of years were to be raised to the salary level of the most senior Deputy Minister. I think it was a Level 6 at that time, but as I understand it there's another level that has been introduced . It would appear that they're out of whack with the national average.

If these figures are correct , a 2 percent increase was over that five-year period that they have fallen behind, and in saying that I appreciate that they do earn a considerable salary. That makes it difficult 2321

Monday, 25 May, 1987 to argue publicly, but I trust that the Attorney-General, perhaps in the next set of negotiations, will perhaps attempt to develop some type of formula that would be acceptable to them. HON. R. PENNER: I would hope that we can - we certainly made it clear - reopen to discussions with the provincial judges. We'll be looking at where they stand as of June 30 of this year in comparison to other provincial judges. I hope in fullness of time , I hope sooner rather than later, we can work a formula approach to judicial salaries and make it easier for all concerned.

A final comment I want to make is that number of provincial Attorneys-General , including myself, feel more and more strongly that there should be some federal contribution to provincial judges ' salaries; 90 percent of the work that is done by provincial judges in this jurisdiction - it may be slightly less in others where they're doing more family work - stems from Criminal Code matters or VOA matters. It seems to us that the federal contribution to the administration of justice is deficient in this particular regard in any event. MR. G.

MERCIER: Dealing with the judges and the pensions, is it correct that the government turned down a pension proposal from the Judges' Association that I think was agreed to by the Department of the Attorney­ General? HON. R. PENNER: No, that is not correct. In fact , I've had occasion to meet quite recently with the Chief Provincial Judge, a representative of the Provincial Judges' Association, to clarify that matter . Cabinet has not in fact made a decision on a pension plan for the judges, either an enhanced pension plan, as it is sometimes referred to, it's really an enhanced contribution , or some alternative.

Very briefly, the history of the matter is that a whole set of proposals were before Cabinet in December, including adjus tments to salary , the creation of a separate judicial pay series , things of that kind, some seven matters to be considered. Three or four of them were approved and three or four were referred for further consideration.

Regrettably, though the minutes of Cabinet weren't quite clear on that, communication to the Deputy Attorney-General from the Office of the Clerk of Council indicated that the proposal with respect to an enhanced pension plan had been approved by Cabinet , when in fact it had been referred. The Deputy Attorney-General, in good faith, communicated that information to the provincial judges , who were then understandably labouring under the impression that that proposal had been approved rather than referred.

The matter was brought back to Cabinet by myself for that and other reasons to continue progress in the way in which we were dealing with the provincial judges, looking at a whole number of things .

It was pursuant to that that a reference was again made on the enhanced pension to the Civil Service Superannuation Boa rd, or at least the officials , the advisory committee , for some input now arranged, because I think there should be some direct dealings or representativ es of the Provincial Judges' Association to meet directly with people in the Superannuation because there's misapprehension - or at least they're not ad idemous to the cost of the proposal. The provincial judges seem to have figures that suggest that cost is not that much.

There are other figures which suggest that the cost is very substantial. So tho se meetings have not yet been held. I've asked that they be held in the very near future and my deputy will be monitoring and assisting in those discussions so we can get it back to Cabinet as soon as possible . MR. G. MERCIER: There's an indication that there are four extra staff years hired on a term basis to speed processing in fine payments . Could the Attorney­ General indicate the amount outstanding? HON. R.

PENNER: It's expected the best estimate we have is that, in the course of a year, the four term staff will assist us in bringing in an ext ra $350,000 to $400,000 in fine revenue, and that will then keep us current. MR. G. MERCIER: Does this involve collection of fines for the City of Winnipeg? HON. R. PENNER: No, this doesn't deal with a parking ticket. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(c)(1)-pas s; 5.(c)(2) - pass; 5.(d)(1)-pass; 5.(d)(2)- pass. 5.(e)(1) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Are there any concerns over security? HON. R.

PENNER: Some of the security concerns, which we've had in the past, are going to be greatly alleviated when we move into the new facility . The new provincial courthouse is an excellent model in terms of the circulation control that we have, the way in which prisoners on remand or awaiting sentence are brought in through a particular access which brings them into a separate circulation area from the way in which the public come in and from the way in which the judges come in. So we have, I think , reviewed them very carefully - very good security circulation there .

I think that we've been able to - I'm just going to check on that - in the refurbished Law Courts Building , that we've been able to enhance security . I think we 'll have enhanced circulation for all but three courtrooms , but those three courtrooms would be ones that were not used in sensitive areas, not used in domestic or criminal areas. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, if I recall correctly, there was an obligation under the RCMP contract to reduce the escort services of the RCMP and to hire more civilian sheriffs for that purpose .

Is that still ongoing or is there still an obligation on the part of the province to reduce the escort services provided by the RCMP? HON. R. PENNER: Escort services primarily by the Sheriff's Office, however, there's a close working relationship between the Sheriff' s Office and the RCMP so that if in fact we have an escort from Winnipeg to 2322

Monday, 25 May, 1987 Brandon, we'll check with the RCMP and, if they have officers going to Brandon, either on the same or some other duty, then we'll ask them to take the escorted prisoner with the RCMP. MR. G. MERCIER: Is there any legal obligation under the RCMP contract to reduce their escort services and provide more people in this area? HON. R. PENNER: We met our legal obligations, as have the RCMP.

What we are seeking to do is to reduce overall the cost of escort services and one of the cost­ cutting measures was to reduce the use of the RCMP where in fact it was an inefficient use of the RCMP time, better used on strict law enforcement and taken the measures I'v e just indicated to cut down duplication. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5. (e)( 1) -Pass; 5.(e)(2)-Pass. 5.(f)( 1) - The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Just one point on this, just to confirm.

I think it's an undertaking on the part of the Attorney-General to table and make public a review of the Court Communic ators system that was reported on some time ago. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, and I'll reiterate that for the record. In fact, just this weekend, I had a chance to begin rer eading the report upon the return of myself and deputy assistant deputies from the Annual Meeting of Attorneys-General and the Minister of Justice this week.

One of the items high on our agenda is to meet with the Chief Provincial Judge, the head of the Court Communic ators Program and others concerned to review the recom mendations in the report to get some initial input from the Chief Provincial Judge. Pretty well concurrently with that, I expect to be able to make the report public, certainly I think in the normal course while the House is still in Session.

Thereafter, one of the steps that I would propose to take is to discuss with some of the Native organizations who have suggested that, in common with other provinces, it ought to be the case that the Court Commun icators Program is adminis tered by a Native organiza tion. I'm prepared to discuss that but I don't want that statement of mine to be ind icative of support for that suggestion and certainly not at this stage. MR. G. MERCIER: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(f)(1 )-pass; 5.(f)(2)-pass. 5.(g)( 1) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Just to get a confirmation of an amount.

The 19 85-86 report ind icated nearly 11.6 million was collected in maintenance payments, and of that amount nearly $1 million was returned to the Minister of Finance to offset social allowance costs. Are those the most up-to-date figures, or did the Attorney-General refer to ... HON. R. PENNER: You'll find this in the key indicators report but I have an extract from that; 19 86 total payments received $13 .9 million and the funds were covered by the program now in excess of a million, $1.15 million.

So that the total amount recovered is plus 19 .2 percent year over year, and the total amount recovered for the province is plus 9.9 percent year over year. MR. G. MERCIER: How many other provinces have now adopted the Manitoba system? HON. R. PENNER: Three that we're aware of - I' ll just check which three, if we're counting the same three. They've just introduced finally the enabling legislation in Ontario, about th ree weeks ago, so that program will - if it's not under way now, will be under way shortly.

Incidentally Ontario had looked at some different way of doing it and when they had it all just about set up realized that the way that they were looking at was about twice as costly as the Manitoba way and ultimately - and I hope not reluctantly - decided to follow the Manitoba model. Alberta and Saskatchewan - and I'm advised as well tha t within the next six months it's likely that Newfoundland will - they're doing all the preparatory work. The Federal Government is providing some funds to the provinces to assist them in the computerization that's necessa ry. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garry. MR. C.

BIRT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The question of the procedure in forcing maintenance orders in other jurisdictions, especially in the United States - I believe that there's a fair list outlined in the statute as to the reciprocating states. One lady has contacted me after discussions with the reciprocal officer in the Community Services branch and basically what's happened is the state - and it's California - the court is allowing, actually what it amounts to is a rehearing of something that was decided by one of our federal judges some five years ago.

And reading of our statute it would appear that you can enforce the orders, it should go down there but the proper role would be to bring an application either to vary or come here and do something, but it would appear on the enforcing of the order from the material supplied - and I must give compliments to the reciprocal officer who said that, you know, we don't handle this because it's a matter that may affect your rights, you'll have to retain your own counsel. Two questions, one is, is this happening in other jurisdictions, No. 1.

And No. 2, is this not something the department should be following up with other jurisdictions because this particular individual wrote to the District Attorney-General who was supposed to be in response for it, and then the only thing that has flowed from it is a court hearing saying, this matter will be adjourned and certain information must be filed. And it really amounts to a variation of the order down there. HON. R. PENNER: The Assistant Deputy Minister of Court Services, Marvin Bruce, has just verified what I 2323

Monday, 25 May, 1987 thought to be the case , namely, that in general the nature of the agreement says that the reciprocating state is not to look behind the court order, but if an issue arises to refer it back to the originating jurisdiction for such variation as may be indicated . And maybe , of course - and this sounds like an isolated case and we would appreciate the particulars, we'll follow it up ... MR. C.

BIRT: In talking with the reciprocal officer , it's the only one to come to her attention , then the lady went and sough t legal counsel and ultimately ended up talking to me on the issue , and I've tried to find something on it, but it would appear to be an isolated instance. But when looking at the documentation , in effect , they're doing what they're not supposed to be doing. So I'd be pleased to provide the material to the Minister , or his staff, so that they can investigate . HON. R. PENNER: Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(g)(1)-pass ; 5.(g)(2)-pass. 5.(h)( 1) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , the Supplementary Information refers to the creation of a unified library resource prog ram , etc ., into a first class state of the art library program. What are the plans for implementation of that? What are the time guidelines for completion of this project? HON. R. PENNER: We're presently looking at about 18 months . The matter has been delayed about six months beyond what we would have liked - and I'm talking about completion.

There are improvements that would be made all along because the first library manager, hired under the new system, left after six months and we had to go through the hiring process again . We now have someone in place working on a basic invent ory of library programs across the province; and once that information is available, in early fall, the librarian manager and the Advisory Committee will be able to plan some of the changes, and to implement other changes that have already been agreed to. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(h)(1)-pass; 5.(h)(2)-pass . 5.(j)(1) - the Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, a question to the Attorney-General dealing with a problem which I brought to his attention, oh, approximately a month ago, both verbally and by letter. I talked to a constituent earlier today who was one of those individuals that were involved and without putting his name on the record the Minister can probably recollect who it was. It was dealing with one department of government wanting to proceed - or first of all proceeded to press charges on the road tax difficu lty, a road tax problem.

After looking into the details of it the Department of Finance withdrew their charges and the Crown - because the Crown Prosecutor in Brandon , I believe , was wanting to continue to prosecute. The individual has a letter of apology from one department of government saying that they're sorry that they 've taken it to this stage, and the Attorney­ General's Department seems to want to continue to press charges .

And the Minister indicated, the case that I'd made to him at that time , that he would look into it, and I wonder if he could report where it's at, at this particular time because the constituent is still not satisfied that there 's any agreement between the departments , something like that. HON. R. PENNER: I wouldn't want to leave these Estimates without the Member for Arthur knowing that he, at times, can be very persuasive .

In fact, the charges have been stayed pending a review of policy , to find out why this mismatch between the recommendation of finance officers and the instructions to our Crown attorneys took place. But I want to thank the member for bringing it to my attention because clearly there was something that should not have happened. MR. J. DOWNEY: So he said the charges are stayed, meaning that there won't be any further proceedings? HON. R. PENNER: That is right. MR. J. DOWNEY: Okay. I thank the Minister for his action in that regard. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(j)(1)-pass. 5.(j)(2) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: Just a question - the Fine Option Program , I was going to ask that earlier. I could ask it here . The Minister - the rural courts are - well, that the Fine Option , one of the expected results it says here is, that the Fine Option Program is administered . How well have the Fine Option Programs been administered, carried out? HON. R. PENNER: I think that should read, that there is an improvement in the administration of the Fine Option Program. But we don't administer .

It's just that with more of a hands - on direct administration of the rural courts, we can make sure that there isn't a fallout between the decision to recommend for Find Option and the transferring of the administration of that order to Community Services , the Fine Option Program and the carrying out . There are a number of links in the chain . The Fine Option has to be a matter agreed to by court order and then it goes to the appropriate office of the Community Services.

But there , Community Services itself is a coordinating rather than a delivery agent for Fine Option , it can be the Salvation Army in Winnipeg, or it can be X Community organization in another part of the province. So we simply note in here, that with a rural court manager and improved rural court services, some of the fallout that we did experience in transferring from court to community services to delivery agent will be lessened . MR. G. MERCIER: Who certifies that the work is being done? HON. R. PENNER: Somebody from the community services works with the delivery agents and will 2324

Monday, 25 May, 1987 periodically check. You've got Jones on fine option. Has Jones in fact del ivered the 48 hours of community work through your program? And if not, why not? If in fact you haven't heard from Jones, why didn't you let us know? So there is, in communi ty services, coord ina tors of the Fine Option Program who fulfil! that function. MR. G. MERCIER: Is there any sort of detailed report or analysis of how well the program is working? HON. R. PENNER: I can't give you the details now.

I can tell you that the latest information I have ind icates something in excess of an 85 percent success rate with fine option, and I may be a bit on the low side. MR CHAIRMAN: 5.(jX2)- pass. Resolution No. 21: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 7, 762,000 for the Attorney-General, Court Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March 19 88-p ass. 6.(a)( 1) Salaries: Protection of Indi vidual and Property Rights, Manitoba Human Rights Commission: - the member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: I believe the Throne Speech has ind icated the Attorney-General will be introducing legislation. I appreciate that we have to wait to see what it contains, but can the Attorney-General give any indication when and will that bill be introduc ed this week which is bringing us to the end of the month of May? HON. R. PENNER: I expect so. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the information that the Attorney-General has provided us with ind icates that - I'm looking at page 36 of this Justice of Manitoba Report - the area of intake contacts, modest increases for'84-85 while decreasing by 19 percent in 19 86.

The num ber of formal complaints filed fluctuated over the time period, experiencing a 23 percent incr ease in'85 followed by a 34 percent decrease in 1986. Files brought forward continued to increase substantially over the four years with incr eases of nearly 30 percent for both'84 and'85 followed by nearly a 50 percent increase in 19 86. It appears that the Human Rights Commission from these statistics, if they're right, seem to be catching up on the backlog of matters filed within, while at the same time there was a substantial decrease in the number of complaints in 19 86.

To what does the Attorney-General attribute that significant decrease in complaints in 19 86? HON. R. PENNER: I think it's too early to really evaluate that completely. It may have been an anomaly because, in fact I'm going to ask ADM Ron Perozzo to give the Minister, who just received the '87 figures, and the indication is that the caseload is going back up and indeed regre ttably a bit of the backlog is going up in the result. There's an increase in the caseload taking us back more to historic figures. I should just add with respect to the backlog, I think that probably is tem porar y.

We currently have in the system two vacant enforcement positions which are in the process of being filled. Although I don't have the information today of the starting dates, training period, I expect from previous experience that those two positions will be fully functional again by September 1. MR. G. MERCIER: How long have those positions been vacant? HON. R. PENNER: Just comparatively a short time, not much more than a month I think. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Supplementary Information ind icates an incr ease from $19, 100 to $3 1,0 00 for Communications.

Can the Attorney-General indicate what that increase in expenditures is for? HON. R. PENNER: As I understand it, what we've done is restore the project to where it ought to be, as there was in the previous fiscal year a reduction of $1 0,000 in the appropriation which in fact was brought by ina dvertence and we were able to transfer the money to maintain the program from the personal property budget. We now have built it back into the line. MR. G. MERCIER: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(aX 1) - pass; 6.(a)(2)- pass. 6.(b)

(1) Canada-Manitoba Legal Aid - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Did Legal Aid Manitoba require supplementary funding for the past fiscal year? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, it did requir e supplementary for the last fiscal year in the amount of $1. 2 million. The reason for that was that was antici pated because we made adjustments both with respect to the tariff, the master amount, the hourly rate and adjustments in the domestic tariff, and further , we had ma de adjustments in the eligibility guidelines.

The preliminary figures which I have for the past fiscal year - that was a catch-up amount - ind icates that they're back to the level playing field. MR. G. MERCIER: Did the Attorney-General promise to increase the Legal Aid rate to the private Bar to $45 an hour on April 1 this year? HON. R. PENNER: I'm sorry, would you mind repeating that? MR. G. MERCIER: Did the Attorney-General promise to increase the hourly rate to the private Bar to $45 an hour, as of April 1? HON. R. PENNER: I think that was unde rstood, there would be three increases over a three-year period.

Even though the first of those incr eases was effective mid­ year, if I'm not mistaken, it was under stood that the subsequent adjustments would be at the beginning of the fiscal year, and that was a reasonable assumption to make. As the member kno ws, we have, in fact, dela yed the in troduction of this fiscal year' s $5 2325 -

Mond ay, 25 May, 1987 adjustment to October 1, in the interest of saving some mon ey. MR. G. MERCIER: Is there a commitme nt to a subsequent increase, part of the unde rstan ding, as the Attorney-General refers to it, was that it be increased to $50 per hour by April 1, 19 88? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, there is a commitment. MR. G. MERCIER: That commitment is still there? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, that comm itment is still outstan ding, and is still a commitment. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the Attorney-General antic ipate that any sup plementar y funding will be req uir ed before the end of the year? HON. R.

PENNER: No, I don't anticipa te the need for su pplementary funding in this fiscal year. MR. G. MERCIER: The amount allocated for Legal Aid, does it take into consideration the fact that there will be an increase in the hourly rate? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, it does. MR. G. MERCIER: Does that affect the contribution from the Federal Government, which appears to indicate recoverable $4. 1 million? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, we recover money from the Federal Government for Legal Aid in basically three different ways. One is, in fact, through CAP on the civil side.

Virtually all of the Legal Aid that we deliver, given our eligibility guidelines, are for persons who would normally be considered eligible for CAP-type assistance and the Federal Government has recognized this as a shareable and has allowed it to be included in our CAP figures. I think I should note that it's the desire of the Federal Government to move that sharing, not to abandon that sharing, but to move it away from CAP and into the general sharing formula that would be negotiated with the province.

The second is on the criminal side where, in the negotiated agre ement, we have in creased our percentage from -it had fallen to around 40 and dipped below 40 - back to close to 50 percent of what is called "shareable costs." But the shareable costs do include the amount that we're paying out on our tariff; and the third is young offender sharing. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the funding still include now the - what was it called - the public interest group? HON. R. PENNER: This is funded now, in its enti rety, through the Law Foundation. MR. G.

MERCIER: They're still employees of Legal Aid, but funded through the Law Foundation? HON. R. PENNER: Yes. 2326 MR. G, MERCIER: What sort of reporting mechanism will ther e be then by that group? Will the Law Foundation file annual reports in the Legislature, with a comment on activities of the public interest group? HON. R.

PENNER: Yes, the Law Foundation has made it clear to all recipients of grants, those that are presently in place as a result of that initial three-year agreement, that the fact that there's a three-year agreement does not free them from the obl igation of filing both applications for subsequent- year funding and then justification thereof, a report on how the money received has been expended.

In addition, adminis trative controls will be admin istered through Legal Aid, who will do the admin istrative control, but, in a sense, the policy control, because it is a grant from the foundation will be in the hands of the foundation. MR. G. MERCIER: And Annual Reports will be filed by the foundation? HON. R. PENNER: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: The first one would be, I take it, not till next year. HON. R. PENNER: I expect that the first report of the foundation will be made to me prior to the end of this fiscal year. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 6.(b)(1 )-pass; 6.(b)(2)-pass. 6.{c)( 1) Public Trustee, Salaries - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My concern, I think, was expressed last week, over the amount of profit the government is making out of the Public Trustee's Office. The Annual Report indicates that in 19 85-86 - I'll say star ting at 1984-85 there was something like almost $250,000 profit; in 19 85-86, there was a $600,000 profit. If one looks at the expenditur es for the office this year and the revenue, it would appear to be another $600,000 profit in the Public Trustee 's Office.

Now, I must admit that when the Public Trustee was recovering about 100 percent, or thereabouts, or a little less, of his expenditures, I consi dered that to be very admir able and proper; but when the Public Trustee, at the Attorney-Gener al's direction, I assume, is making this sort of profit on roughly expenditures, for example, in the 19 85-86 were $1 .69 million and the Public Trustee not only recovered that, but recovered some $600,000 profit in looking after the estates of mentally incompetent and elderly people. It seems to me there's something wrong.

The Justice in Manitoba Report that the Attorney­ General handed out today confirms the large increase in expenditur es compared to the expenditure incr ease; and I would ask the Attorney-General whether or not he agrees with the concern that I've expressed in this particular matter. Does he consider it appropriate that this type of profit is earned by the Public Trustee from the kinds of estates, particula rly, that the Public Trustee is looking after?

Monday, 25 May, 1987 HON. R. PENNER: First of all, the figure which is shown in the last com plete year as revenue, $2,29 1,5 00 contains a figure of $325,000 which is in fact escheats to the Crown. That has to be taken out of that figure, if one is looking at what revenue in fact is taken from the estates being admin istered, No. 1. Secondly, the figure for expenditure does not include the follo wing: It does no t include the cost of approxima tely 11 , 000 squ are feet of office space in the Woodsworth Building.

The comparable cost of private rental, if the Public Trustee was being run as a Crown Corporation would be $200,000.00. It does not include mone y which we pay from the department in the development of com puterized systems - in '86-87 approxima tely $1 00,000; '87-88, $250,000 planned. It does not include a whole number of admin istrative costs borne directly by the department. We estimate that the Public Trustee's share of those admin istrative costs is approximately $50,000.00. It does include the cost of mailing correspondence absorbed by Government Services.

It does not include the costs of the Provincial Auditor's audits. When these costs, which are not charged to the office of the Public Tru stee, are taken or added into the expenditure side, and the escheats taken out of the revenue side, in fact the Public Trustee is not making money on the admin istration of the estates. In fact, it's losing marginall y. Third ly, once must remember that the very, very efficient admin istration of these estates has shown revenue for those estates in the neighbourhood of - (I nterjection)- this admin istration is earning for those estates approximately $7 million and going up.

Fourth ly, and this is important, in the sense that the Public Trustee 's offices is almost - except that we're absorbing some of the costs - a Crown corporation, under The Public Trustee Act, Sections 10( 1) , 10(2) and 12, the Public Trustee has the statutory authority to set the rate, so it's not the department. We don't go to the Public Trustee and say, here in fact is what you will charge. All decisions with respect to revenue and investments are made by the Public Trustee, pursuant to the act, because we're very careful. I think the Member for St.

Norbert will recall when he was Attorney-General it was no different, very caref ul to make sure that this is an operation run in accordance with the best trust principles. So that we do not say to the Public Trustee , you charge X percent. What the Public Trustee does, in accordance with the statutory obligations, is to recover an amount as close as possible to the costs of the opera tion, except that the costs of the operation which are looked at by the Public Trustee are not the total costs of the operation. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, the note to the financial statement ind icates that the government of the Province of Manitoba requested that the total cost of the Public Trustee's office be fully recovered by means of these admin istration fees. HON. R. PENNER: Yes. We have raised the question of trying to put the expenditure side on an actual basis, but beyond that we haven't said, here, make a profit. That, I have to emphas ize, and that's the point that I'm making, that there is no direction to the Public Trustee that any more than the recovery of costs is to be charged. MR. G.

MERCIER: When did the Attorney-General find out that these items he's mentioned today were not included as expenditur es in the Public Trustee 's office? HON. R. PENNER: The afternoon of the day you raised the qu estion. I knew that, general ly, but in terms of the details, they were provided to me very roughly at about that time, and in fact the actual figures which I gave you were just provided to me five minu tes ago. MR. G. MERCIER: Wha t did the Attorney-General mean then when he asked that the total costs of the Public Trustee 's office be recovered by adminis tration fees?

What total costs was he referring to then? HON. R. PENNER: I think what is referred to in the footnote - I'll check with the Public Trustee - is the general direction that the operation be run, not at a loss, but there has been no requests that, in one fell blow, the Public Trustee's operatio n absorb all of these costs.

I'm advised by the Public Trustee that in fact the tariff that is char ged has been the same for the last four or five years, and is a tariff that is measured in part, I think as I might have ind icated in the House, but if not I'm ind icating now, against the private sector, the lowest rate of recovery in the private sector. The Public Trustee further advises me - I should probably say, with some humility, reminds me - that the direction with respect to costs, the particular context was when we agreed to, at the request of the Public Trustee, augment the staff.

It was ind icated at that time that we would do so because of the workload, but that we would hope that the increased cost of the increased staff would be recover ed. But it's also true that we are looking at the operation of the Public Trustee to move it towards more realistic cost recovery, but that's not a basic problem we find with the office of the Public Trustee. We think it's a public service, certainly never looked at as a money-raising venture except for those whose estates tha t we adminis ter. The footnote in the report'82-83, for example, I think correctly states the policy.

Although every effort is made to recover costs and expenses, the fact that the office is there to provide public service and is an appointment of last resort is not ignored or overlooked. The care that is given, and the quality of service that is provided is always consistent and in terms of the law and is not allowed to be affected by the worth of the estate or the individual.

So, it's a public service, we would like it to run on a even-steven basis, we have absorbed some of the admi nistrative costs over a period of time, we would hope that as in fact the volume of cases under its admin istration increases we can get to that point but it's not a directive to the office of the Public Trustee. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm glad to hear that the Attorney-General agrees that the Public Trustee's office shouldn't be operated for profit. At the same time the Minister has distributed this information which 2327

Monday, 25 May, 1987 ind icates certain figures of revenue and expenditure which would lead one to believe that there is a profit. On the face of it when one prepares the revenue and expenditure, one would naturally assume that the difference is meant to cover profit.

I would suggest perhaps that what the Attorney-General should be doing with the Public Trustee, at least for the record, I want to make it clear, I'm not being critical of the Public Trustee whose work and whose management of this office has been done very well over the years, but perhaps you should be looking at it in determ ining exactly what the costs are of operation, so that when you show expenditur es of $1 .69 million - or whatever the figure is - they're the total actual operating cost of the office and you thereby justify your revenue figures.

I would think it's not unr easonable to assume that the Pu blic Trustee should recover the actual costs of operation. And perhaps in the study of the office it would be more appropriate if the total actual cost of operations were shown, which would obviously justify the revenue side, much more easi ly. At the same time, I had asked the Attorney-General a numb er of questions that the annual report raises - and there are points made here - that there'd be no increase in resources to handle the su bstantial workload increases which are being accu mula ted over the past three years.

The situation has been, therefore, one of higher revenues and reduced services. Resources have been stretched to the bre aking point. There's an ind ication that although several deserving cases were referred to this office, due to the heavy demands on ava ila ble resources, no powers of attorney were accepted and there's also an ind ication that due to insufficient resources, the Public Trustee was unable to participate in any of the planning meetings for the Welcome Home Program, for people over which he had jurisdiction.

The Attorney- Genera l's referred to this as an important public service, which I agree it is. I would ask him why, in view of that and in view of the revenue side, why hasn't the resources - that probably the Trustee req uires in these cases - been provided? HON. R. PENNER: First of all, I agree with the first observation of the Member for St. Norbert, namely that it probably would be advisable to have, at the very least, the annual report of the Public Trustee and by footnote if no other way reflect the other costs to which reference has been made so the public is aware of that.

I would also think the Public Trustee will have, I think, certainly heard the observation of the member with respect to whether or not the charges ought not to reflect those costs to government. In terms of staff, page 80, of the Supplementary Information ind icates an addition of some 3.20 SY's to assist in the volume increase. Parallel with this we are in fact doing an operational audit of the Public Trustee's office with his cooperation, of course, to get a very, very close analysis of the staffing needs now and in the future.

And certainly it would be our desire to make sure that nothing occurs which would prejudice the efficient operation of the estates of these people. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the Attorney-General about some other matters that the Public Trustee has been involved in - and I received correspondence from a number of people who were concerned. It seems over the past year that there have been a number of cases in which people in the Public Trustee 's office have intervened in where there were minors living at home with parents.

Where it appeared from news reports, media reports, that the - one case in Southern Manitoba where the Public Truste e's office seemed to be saying to a young person and their family, either you file a statement of claim or we're going to file it for you, and it appeared from the news reports in that case that the mother didn't want to be - because of her ... HON. R. PENNER: This was the medical malpractice? MR. G. MERCIER: . . . yes, religious convictions or something - didn't want to get involved in a legal action, was satisfied with the situation the way it was.

There was not only that one but there was another one, the details of which I can't recall. Concerns that have come to me from a numb er of people, to this effect, what is the Public Trustee 's office doing, appearing to intervene and meddle in these cases when they're minors living at home and with parents making decisions. The concern that's been expressed to me, there seemed to be an interference with what were consider ed to be parental obligations. Perhaps the Attorney-General might want to comment on the - first of all, maybe even the legal authority for the Public Trustee to be doing these sorts of things.

It would seem to me if I was a parent of a minor in one of these cases, for some logical, reaso nable point of view you decided not to pursue a legal action in a situation where your child, perhaps there was some legal liability to your child, but for whatever reason that decision is being made. Why should the Public Trustee be coming along and saying, look, you file a statement of claim or I' m going to file it for you. Maybe that's a wrongful

interpretation. I'm going in many cases from read ing reports and the complaints or concerns that have been expressed to me have of course been based on this report. HON. R. PENNER: First of all, I think the member will recall that our Public Trustee is somewhat different from many of the other Provincial Public Trustees in that he has certain guardianship duties under a number of Statutes, for example, under the Infant's Estate Statute. It's pursuant to that man date, it must attempt to ensure that all reasonable steps are taken to safeguard the interests of the estate.

The sole involvement of the Public Trustee in the case that is refere nced was an application for leave to sue on behalf of the infant's estate, to safeguard the position, recognizing that if no action were taken during the infancy of the infant, on behalf of the infant, then the infant itself would lose that right and, upon atta ining the age of 18, that infant's interest would be jeopardized. My information is that, in fact, the Public Trustee on that side of his mandate, which is the guardianship side, doesn't exercise it all that often.

But I think it's important that we do have someone who has an overview of the interest of estates to the extent that, 2328

Monday, 25 May, 1987 using that case as an example, we can ensure that und ers tanding and sympathetic as we may be to the feelings of the parents, and I don't think that we would have sort of soldiered on if the circums tances ind icated that we shouldn't, but had to be concerned about the possibility of the infant losing - I believe it was a male - his right as well. In any event, the dissatisfactory result of the action by the Public Trustee was that the mother under stood. She did indeed have a duty towards that infant to maintain that action and has taken it over. MR. G. MERCIER: Okay.

But what if she decided for her own good and legitimate purposes that she didn't want to, and she had been as I und erstood it from the news reports, consult a personal solicitor? What is the policy going to be? Is the Public Trustee's office going to review the newspaper each morning and see some situation has happened, and then call up the family or the children and say, we want you to consider filing a statement of claim because we feel you have a reasonable claim, no matter what you or your family have decided you want to do. That's the way that one came across.

There may have even been comments to that effect. that one of the officials in the Public Trustee's Office read about the case in the newspaper and called to advise them they had a claim. I think there's going to have to be � very clear policy on this, because there may very well be situations where, and that woman in that case, the mother in that case, could very well have decided, no, for my own reasons. we don't want to file a claim against this doctor.

Again, it seems to me to be a very significant intervention into a fami ly, for a government office to come along and intervene perhaps against the wishes of the family and proceed with legal action. Is there an express policy? HON. R. PENNER: I must say, and I hope the member doesn't take exception, that these comments of the member somewhat surprise me.

The mem ber is one of the most devoted members in the House to the concept of the role of the state as - what is the Latin expression - patrespatrens, the role of the state is defending the best interest of the children; that must always be central in the activities of the state, whether it's through the activities of the Department of Community Services in the adminis tration of the Child and Family legislation, calling for even more active intervention right up to the role of the Minister. I don't want to, nor does the member want to, get into that debate again.

But I think that we have to say in response to the question, what is the mandate of the Public Trustee? The mandate of the Public Trustee as guardian of the estates of infants is to ensure their best interests. In fa ct, in tha t particular in stance, wha t would the application have done? The application would have brought the attention of the court to the matter and the court, because it was an application for leave to sue, would have decided and could have heard from the mother whether or not it was in the best interests of the child.

I think that probably the cour t would have decided that it definitely was in the best interests of the child to sue, but it would not have been the Public Trustee who would have made that decision; it would have been the Public Trustee who would have brought to the attention of the court. So we have two mandates: No. 1, best inter est of the child; No. 2, take the matter in case of doubt to the courts, and the court exercising the patrespatrens jurisdiction would make the decision. I think that's a fair

summary of the position. MR. G. MERCIER: How was this policy implemented then? Is it simply done on a sporadic basis or how many instances like this occurred in the last fiscal year? HON. R. PENNER: The Public Trustee is the official guardian and next friend has to exercise that jurisdiction. The question is, do these cases come to his attention via the morning newspaper? What if he only reads the Sun and not the Free Press? We'd only have the one impression. Or do they come to his attention in a more systematic way? In this case, the particular instance was reported to the Public Trustee by a lawyer.

I would hope that all lawyers would recognize it as part of their duty to report such matters to the Public Trustee. But the member raises a very good question, perhaps there has to be a more system atic way of ensuring that where there is a best interest of the infant case to be looked at, that we have the equ ivalent of an abuse registry or something, so that it's not dependent on information from a lawyer in a particular case, or from a news report. MR. G. MERCIER: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(cX1 )-pass; 6.(cX2)-pass; 6.( dX1) Land Titles Offices: Salaries - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: Wel l, we've already talked about this area when we were dealing with the computerization. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, we covered a lot of ground. MR. G. MERCIER: The one thing I can indicate certainly is, that at least what the Minister of Finance has done in his budget is legitimize the taxing of the users of the Land Titles Office that was going on previously. The Land Titles Office as was noted last year was earning something like a $10 million profit, and by the Minister of Finance actually this year, labelling the - not justified , but properly described what was going on this year as a land transfer tax.

The actual fees this year are, the revenue side is shown as $5.3 million. I take it that includes the $30 fee per transaction, basically on the transfer of land and mortgage plus the other usual fees. HON. R. PENNER: Tha t is right. MR. G. MERCIER: And is the Attorney-General assuring users of the Land Titles Office that a maximum delay in processing transfers and registration does not exceed three weeks, for the balance of the fiscal year? HON. R. PENNER: Hold on, now. I wonder if he'll take a warranty instead of a guarantee. We 'r e presently 2329

Monday, 25 May, 1987 operating about 17 days on transfers, 11 on mortgages. This is a fairly busy time of the year and some changes are being made internal ly, reallocation of resources, a different method of supervision, which leaves us to be very optimistic that we can hold at those figures, giving us a little leeway on the transfers in terms of the three­ week gu arantee that was asked. I think it would be a bit pollyanna-ish for me to suggest that maybe we can go down from that. But I think we can be reasonably sure we can hold it at 17 and maybe inch downwards. MR. G.

MERCIER: Are there any proposal plans in the operations of rural Land Titles Office in this coming fiscal year? HON. R. PENNER: No, there are no plans. I think I indicated, probably an answer to a letter from the Member for Pembina wrote me about this. He had a concern I think about the Morden Land Titles Office, and I ind icated that what we have decided to do is to complete the com puterization and then take a look at the overall operation of the system from the point of view of acces sibility.

There are new things that we think can be done in the use of office terminals and so on, to access the system once we're set up and running. But we're talking a couple of years down the line before we even get to that point, two, three, four years. MR. G. MERCIER: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(d)(1 )-pass; 6.(d)(2 )-pass. 6.(e)( 1) Salaries: Personal Property Security Registry - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, here the expenditures are shown as $869,000, in fact down by $8,000 over last year. The revenues are shown as $2.2 million, so that revenues exceed expenditures by $1 .3, $1.4 million.

Is the Attorney-General going to say to me that the expend itures do not show the total actual costs of operations? HON. R. PENNER: Not without my staff. They're advising me that that is the case. Not to that extent. No, I have to tell you that we are, in fact, no matter how you look at it making - and I don't hesitate to use the word - a profit on this operation. That's because the Minister of Natural Resources doesn't make a profit on his operation, somebody's got to make a bit of a profit ... MR. G.

MERCIER: How does government justify making a profit on a service to - how do you say to the users of one government activity, we're going to make a profit on you so that we can look after the inefficient Natural Resources Department? HON. R. PENNER: Well, we're not saying that really. A MEMBER: He said it. HON. R. PENNER: We're just trying to set an example. MR. G. MERCIER: In effect, that is a tax on the users of this department, that they shouldn't be paying. HON. R. PENNER: Well, I wouldn't call it a tax, but it's true that there is a profit being made on this particular operation.

We are national ly, in terms of operations of this kind, we're in the mid-range of char ges; we're not the top; and we're not aiming for the bottom. I think, you know, we're pretty well content to stay about where we are in terms of charges, and if it's one of th ose th ings tha t ma kes a few dol lars for a government, then so be it. It's all the better. MR. G. MERCIER: Having seen the success of the Attorney-General so far in raising money through this area, has the Minister of Finance been reviewing this area so that he can im pose something similar to the land transfer tax in this area in next year's budget?

HON. R. PENNER: No, no. The land transfer tax I think, we had some good models from Ontario and B.C., not, incidenta lly, in terms of their charges - ours are much more progressive. Actually, I can get into a bit of a philosophic discussion here. In a way, I think that the land transfer tax, because it can be made progressive, has, relatively speaking, perhaps more justification than other forms of taxation; the ones that we considered and rejected . MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.( e)( 1 )-pass; 6.(e)(2)-pass. 6.(

f) Canada-Manitoba Crimin al In jur ies Compensation Board - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, for this area, there is a significant percentage increase in expenditures over the previous year. The Supplementary Information ind icates, "Claims requiring compensation payments have been increasing at a rate of 20 percent to 25 percent per year. " Would the Attorney-General like to amplify on that comment? HON. R.

PENNER: Let me check if that figure is - certainly, we have been increasing the amount of money that we've required to pay out because of the way in which our system works, modeled on the Workers Compensation system ; that is that it's not once and for all payments, but we maintain people on the rolls, as it were, who are permanently disabled. The number of claims processed, in fact, in the latest figures that I have, show a minor reduction in 19 85- 86 over 19 84-85 of 2.2 percent. It's the actual amount of the benefits paid which have increased at the rate ind icated.

I should add to my answer - it might be some assistance to the Member for St. Norbert - that we have been pressing the Federal Government very heavily to increase its input, and the former Minister of Ju stice, the Hon. John Crosbie, states, categ orically, that they had a general commitment to increase the federal input to approxima tely 30 percent of shareable costs. But there's been a change in that portfolio since, and whether or not the present Minister of Justice is going to continue to carry that ball, we'll ascert ain in the next few days; I hope so. MR. G.

MERCIER: There's not a different agreement with each province, is there? -(Interject ion)- There is? 2330

Monday, 25 May, 1987 HON. R. PENNER: Well , yes and no. The basic agreement is 10 cents per capita. A MEMBER: Well, that's the formula, but the scheme is different everywhere. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, that's the point I'm coming to, so it's not a different agreement, but there are just three provinces that operate the scheme on the Workers Compensation model, and I think I'm right in that number: Quebec, Manitoba and B.C. MR. G. MERCIER : Yes, the graph that's shown in the Justice in Manitoba, page 17, shows vastly different contributions. HON. R.

PENNER: Yes, well, what it shows, I guess it's a percentage , and because our payouts were at the level of slightly in excess of $1 million , the 10 cents per capita exactly equated to 10 percent contribution. It's a very regressive formula, strictly a per capita. It doesn't reflect the basic nature of the scheme, but we do hope to improve the federal contribution. MR. G. MERCIER: How many people are presently receiving benefits? HON. R. PENNER: We'll get the information. At the moment, I don't have that information readily available as to the number it states under Administration.

We have the number in benefits paid, but we don't have the number under Administration. MR. G. MERCIER: There's an indication that the board wishes to increase public awareness of victim programs - I take it this program. How is that going to be done in the next year? That's always been one of my concerns, that this program is not - I'm not sure how well known it is by victims of crime. HON. R. PENNER: Good point. One of the th ings we hope to do through the Justice for Victims Committee is to publicize much better than has been the case the availability of those services which exists .

I can't tell you exactly how; I'm waiting for a recommendation. MR. CHAIRMAN : 6.(f)-pass . Resolution No. 22:

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty, a sum not exceeding $18,966,200 for Attorney-General, Protection of Individual and Property Rights, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1988-pass. 1.(

a) Liquor Commission - Mr. Minister. HON. R. PENNER: Okay, esteemed staff of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission - the " A-plus" Crown corporation: William Emerson, chief executive officer; Irene Hamilton, corporate secretary and supervisor of licensing and director of operations and sampler and bon vivant; Al Ahoff, Director of Finance. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any opening remarks you wanted to make, Mr. Minister? HON. R. PENNER: No, I have no opening remarks. MR. G. MERCIER : The Attorney-General was going to provide me with some information about the grant to the Coalition of Organizations Against Apartheid.

HON. R. PENNER: What I have is a basic project which , as I understand it, the coalition is operating under. Some of it is still in the realm of estimated, but it gives a reasonable indication. Annual rent for the space, which is 1,000 square feet , which is pretty modest, is $1,100 to set up the office, in terms of book shelves and desks and photocopiers, and there it's annualized as a lease , things of that kind - $24,000.00.

The staffing costs which is two, an officer manager and an outreach animator , project coordinator , $44,000; other operat ing costs , about $5,000 , so that the total operational costs in the first year were figured at about $73,000, which included some management and accounting services, of which $24,000 would be one-time costs. That is the setting up of the office. Then the operational side for the first year would be in the nature of about $50,500, broken down roughly to the establishment of a resource collection, materials production, and some of these, once expended, have continuing use.

It's not just expended and gone. A TV show for community cablevision, just $500 there; anticipated national conference, that was originally budgeted for but I don 't think , in fact, will be proceeded with because the cost was too much for the venture; a mobile resource centre, $8,000; a scholarship sum set aside to support visiting professorships or visiting scholars from South Africa or elsewhere who would come to Manitoba to occupy a Chair at either of the universities to provide basic information about the problem and about South Africa, $5,500.00 .

That basically accounts for the proposed overall expenditure of some $50,000 on the program in the first year. So if you can break it down into three categories , on the infrastructure side, about $75,000 of the grant of approximately $125 ,000, of which $25,000 is actual set -up and $50,000 is operations, $50,000, program act ivities. In the ensuing year, the emphasis would change in terms of proportions, so that there would be less on operations and more on programs .

The third component to which I referred is some of the programs is not just money spent, gone , goodbye , bu t building up of resource collections and materials and things of that kind. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the total amount available to them? Is it $250,000 over two years? HON. R. PENNER: You're right. I thought it was over three. It's $279 , 134 is what we're looking at in November, to have rea lized by the end of calendar '86 . MR. G. MERCIER: Is all of the South African product sold now? HON. R. PENNER: All gone. Down the hatch . MR. G.

MERCIER: Just a comment, for all the money they 've had, the organization appears to be almost invisible in terms of any public awareness of what they 're doing. 2331

Monday, 25 May, 1987 HON. R. PENNER: I wou ld agree. I would have antic ipated more high profile activities. I did hear something on the radio just last week about some thing which is being planned and about to be carried out. I think it's a coalition of a whole numb er of organizations and what they had to do is move from the amateur status to the slightly professional status and get themselves set up and get an admin istrator in place. Whether or not they actually have the personnel in place, I can't tell you as of this date. It may be part of the problem. MR. G. MERCIER: Without, Mr.

Chairman, in any way disagreeing with the principle of opposing apartheid, I must say that a constituent asked me the other day, he said, after having visited one of the commissions and seeing the displays for real Russian vodka, whether the profit from the sale of Russian vodka would be sent to the freedom fighters in Afghanistan. HON. R. PENNER: Certainly not to those in Nicaragua, in any event.

I think that the position that we took right from the beginning was that the universal condemnation of this systematic exploitation of the vast majority of that country's population on racial grounds was the most egregious violation of human rights anywhere in the world, and to select South Africa as the focal point for raising huma n rights issues, in line with U.N. declarations and so on was not to say that we are thereby condoning everybody else's violations of human rights.

I think that simply isn't so and I know that one of our mem bers int rod uced a reso lution, a Private Member's resolution that found favour on both sides of the House with respect to the problems of Soviet Jew ry, for example, so we're not selective, but we have priorized, as has the world, the issue of South Africa. MR. G. MERCIER: I wonder if the Attorney-General has, through the officials of the commission, available the comparison sheet that we've had filed the last few years showing the prices of Manitoba compared to other provinces. HON. R.

PENNER: We would have preferred to wait for the Saskatchewan Budget, but that's not to come until June. For the record, after latest budgets that we have information of, we're highest nationally in one category, that's imported beer, Heineken. We are high, what I call high in the top three or four in several categories, rye - these are selected products of course - rum, vodka, scotch, that's a low blow isn't it - Gilby's gin, a couple of others. We 're mid-range in th ree other products, imported wine, domestic wine, domestic beer. MR. G.

MERCIER: What is the estimated, I know the revenue sheets indicate estimated revenue from the commis sion to be $15 4 million in this upcoming fiscal year compa red to $1 45 million previous year, what was the actual revenue from last year? HON. R. PENNER: The actual revenue was 141 , slightly off the projected by a couple of million. MR. G. MERCIER: There have been recent news articles talking about decreases in sales in the last few months. 2332 Can the Attorne y-General comment on the accuracy of those and whether the commission is still predicting a profit of $15 4 million in this fiscal year? HON. R.

PENNER: I think the profit is a combina tion of profit on sales and tax because in addition to the $141 ,862,000 shown on the statement of profit and loss for '87, there was an additional amount equivalent of the retail sales tax of about $20 million, so that you have to add to the 141, about $20 million on this. MR. G. MERCIER: Yes, but that's always been there. HON. R PENNER: That's always been there. We're just into it six weeks so it's too early to say.

We are aware of the problems experienced not only by us but apparently by other jurisdictions where, whether it's price or the health consciousness that grips the nation, as a result of Participaction and so on, I'm not trying to be flip about it, just looking for terms, a growing element of sobriety in society and I think that's all to the good, more of a tendency to consume lower-priced beer and wine products than higher priced spirits. But, nevertheless too early to say whether or not we'll make the $15 4 million .. .. come very close because our projections in previous years have been very, very close. MR. G.

MERCIER: A couple of minor things, one of the members of our Caucus wanted me to ask this question. I don't really know whether it comes in the jurisdiction of the commission, but he had a complaint that he couldn't charge liquor on his Visa, at the du ty­ free store in Emerson. I don't believe that really comes under the jurisdiction . . . HON. R. PENNER: The duty -free stores don't come under our jur isdiction dir ectly. It's Mr. Emerson's information that they can use Visa and Mastercard at that du ty-free shop, but in any event, we don't allow the use of the credit cards in the stores that we directly manage.

MR. G. MERCIER: In any event that's the Federal Government's respon sibility. There's been some discussion amongst, appears to be emanating from restaurants particularly, perhaps even hotels, because of the difficulty I take it many of them are finding, that with high, these prices are causing extremely high liquor prices in their operations and there's been some public discussion about a wholesale price, I guess, to licensees. Is something like that under considera tion? HON. R. PENNER: No.

I've had representations in each one of the last few years from the industr y, that we in fact rebate the sales tax or remove it or absorb it in some way, but we haven't been able to agree to do that. We certainly are not unsympathetic to some of the needs of the hospitality industr y, but that's a lot of mon ey. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the talk before about licensing and it's really come to my attention that we have, on talking to the owner of a very small rural hotel on the weekend and I mentioned to him the Attorney-

Monday, 25 May, 1987 General has brought in a bill that would allow the beverage rooms to stay open until two o'clock. His response was, that's fine but that's for the city hotels, that doesn't help us in the countr y, it's a husband and wife operation and they do everything to operate the facility. And as the Attorney-General has referred to, public awareness, I take it, public change, particularly about drinking and driving, has I think substantially affected the operation of rural hotels.

And what he said, and I think it's a common complaint because I'v e talked to a number of them in the past, what they need is more flexibility and offered the comment that, for example, there are certain activities he could do on Sunday that would cater to a snowmobile operation, where people would snowmobile along the river and then drop into his hotel for a stay. He had great difficulties in getting people at the commission to, within the rules and nobody's at fault, the rules are the rules I suppose, but maybe this is something I'll just leave with the Attorney-General and Mr.

Emerson, is this fact that rural hotels, particularly are having a difficult time because of these reasons, the decreased consumption etc. and what we may have to do in the licensing is having much greater flexibility for rural operators, so that they would be able to cater to their particula r com mu nity because the y'r e having an extremely difficult time. HON. R. PENNER: I think that's a good suggestion and one that we are prepared to review, the notion of some flexibility. We're trying to, as you know, move away from the old rigorous . . . MR. G.

MERCIER: As I recall the specific problem in this case, as I unde rstood it, what you'd have to do under the existing rules is fill up his dining room - which is really what we would call a coffee shop - before he could use the beverage room where he planned on putting a steak shed, or something like that. What they'd really like to do is just simply be able to use the beverage room because that's where he would be planning on building a steak pit, so there's sort of that inflexibility that you have to fill up your dining room first before you can use this other area. HON. R. PENNER: It's a suggestion.

I' ll ask the people on the commission to make some recommendations between now and the next Session. MR. G. MERCIER: One other small item I want to raise - I shouldn't say small, it's important to them and the Attorney-General and the commission may have dealt with it - but during early this year I had received a letter from the Winnipeg Council of Treaty and Status Indians about the cancellation of a licence, and I think the Attorne y-General may be familiar with that. I wonder if he could indicate whether that matter has been resolved. HON. R. PENNER: It hasn't been resolved to the satisfaction of the council.

They'v e threatened legal action and haven 't taken it. I think they may have referred the matter to the Ombudsman and we're waiting for the report from the Ombudsman. I don't want to prej udice the position of the Ombudsman, but simply say that I've received all of the facts from the commission and satisfied myself that, and certainly as it appears from those facts, the commission acted wisely in the event. Not happily for the council