March 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 593 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Monday, March 22, 2004 1:30 p.m. Date: 2004/03/22 [The Speaker in the chair] head: Prayers The Speaker: Good afternoon. Welcome back. Let us pray. Guide us so that we may use the privilege given us as elected Members of the Legislative Assembly. Give us the strength to labour diligently, the courage to think and to spe ak with clarity and conviction and without prejudice or pride. Amen. Hon. members, we’ll now participate in the singing of our national anthem. We’ll be led today by Mr. Paul Lorieau.

To all the members and to all the people in the gallery please feel free to join in in the language of your choice. Hon. Members: O Canada, our home and native land! True patriot love in all thy sons command. With glowing hearts we see thee rise, The True North strong and free! From far and wide, O Canada, We stand on guard for thee. God keep our land glorious and free! O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. The Speaker: Please be seated. head: Introduction of G uests The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Economic Development. Mr. Norris: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It’s indeed a great pleasure to rise today and introduce to you and through you to this House a group of students from the grade 6 class of Talmud Torah elementary school in my riding. They are with their parent helpers, Debbi Joffe, Terry Karpman, and Aube Levine, and their teacher, Christy Dowell. They’re seated in the members’ gallery. I would very much like to welcome them. S halom. Plea se stand a nd be give n the warm welcome of this House today. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul. Mr. Danyluk: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to introduce to you and through you to members of this Assembly five very esteemed representatives from the county of St. Paul. Joining us today a re Deputy Reeve Mike Ber geron, councillors S haril Baumgardner, Don Mudryk, Frank Sloan, and Allen Young. They are seated in the members’ gallery this afternoon, and I would a sk them to rise, i f they would, and r eceive the traditi onal war m welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder. Mr. Rathgeber: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is indeed a pleasure for me to rise to introduce two groups of special guests.

Firstly, I have som e special family members who are visiting from the fine city of A irdrie, Alberta: my brother Dale Rathgeber, his wife, Germaine, and my nephew and niece, Kendel and Jase. I’d ask them to rise. They’re in the public gallery. I’d ask all members to give them the warm welcome of this Assembly. I’m also plea sed to intr oduce to you a nd through y ou to all members of the A ssembly 33 stude nts and tw o teacher s from NorQuest College, of which the Westmount campus is located in the Edmonton-Calder constituency. They’re studying English as a Second Language.

There are 33 students along with their instruc- tors, Ms Capune a nd Ms Ilott. I believe they’re in the members’ gallery. I’d ask them to rise and receive the warm reception of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Community Development. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s a great pleasure to introduce to you and through you to all members assembled here this afternoon some valued con stituents from Edmonto n-Mill Creek. Joining us today in the gallery are T erryl Brosda, whose ch ildren attend Julia Kinis ki school, and Lo ri Reid, whose children also attend Julia Kiniski school.

They are part of the Education Watch initiative. They are joined by Preet Sara, the co-ordinator of Action for Education and the Educa tion Watch initiative. I don’t know if Judith Frank made it today or not. She was planning to come. I’ll ask those who are here to please now rise an d receive the war m welcome of everyone here. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Ms Carlson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It’s my great pleasure today to introduce to you and through you to all Members of the Legisla- tive Assembly 36 stude nts who ar e joining us from Holy Fa mily Catholic school, one o f my favourite schools because that’s where my children w ent. They are join ed t oday by teachers Miss Sonia Mangieri, Mrs. Louisa Hoek stra, and par ents Mr . Sc ott Vic kery, Mrs. Marline Magdales, and, of course, an old friend of a few of us here in this Assembly, Mr. Norm Murphy. I would ask that they all now rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr.

MacDon ald: Thank y ou very muc h, Mr. Speaker. It’s a pleasure to introduce to you and through you to all hon. Members of this Legislative Assembly another class from Clara Tyner elementary school, another fine public school in the constituency of Edmonton- Gold Bar. The 26 polite but enthusiastic students that are here today are led by their teacher, Mrs. Sandi James, and they are accompanied by parent h elpers Cheryl Anderson, Colleen Ellis, Bonnie Sm ith, Donna Thachuk, Leona Paush, and Mary Synnett.

They are in the public gallery, and I would now ask them all to please rise an d receive the warm and traditional welcome of this Assembly. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. S peaker. It’s my pleasure to rise and introduce more parents who are here watching our proceedings as part of the Ed ucation Watch ini tiative. They are sea ted in the members’ gallery. They’re concerned about the quality of education their c hildren are receiv ing and the l evel of funding f or public education. I’ll ask them to rise as I re ad their names. One i s Mr.

Ross Alexander, who is a parent with one child attending Lendrum elementary. The second is Shari-Lynn Lane, who has two children attending Lendrum elementary. Please give them a warm welcome. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury-Three Hills.

Alberta Hansard March 22, 2004594 Mr. Marz: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s a pleasure for me to rise today and int roduce to yo u an d th rough you to mem bers of this Assembly two very distinguished gentlemen from my riding. They are seated in the public gallery, and they are here today to meet with various ministers to tell us all the wonderful things that are happen- ing at Olds College and Olds College Centre for Innovation. They are Stan Mills, the chairman of the board of Olds College, and Jim Smith, chairman of the board of Olds College Centre for Innovation. They’re in the public gallery.

Would they please rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. head: Oral Quest ion Peri od Calgary Health Region Dr. Taft: Mr. Speaker, Calgarians can ’t trust the C algary health region. The region has become a political patronage playground while two more people die needlessly. This government responds as it did in the ca se of Vinc e Mot ta, as it did in the case of Maren Burkhart: don’t worry ; th e Calgar y heal th region w ill handle it . Well, I am worried, and Calgarians are worried. My questions are to the Minister of Health and Wellness.

How can Calgarians trust the Calgary health region to get to the bottom of these deaths when the Motta inquiry just one year ago said, quote, the CHR appears to view the inquiry process as a public relations exercise, end quote? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, let me say first of all that there were tragic deaths that occurred as a result of a medical error. I want to express my deep condolences and sympathies to the families involved. Not because I know who these individuals or who their families are; it’s because I use the system in exactly the same way as these families use the system.

I want to say that this could be my father, this could be my child, this could be my wife, this could be somebody that all of us know personally, and I am deeply committed to a health care system that helps people and doesn’t harm them or in this case kill them. 1:40 So, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that we are fully committed as a government to independent reviews that are currently being con- ducted by the m edical examiner, who is not an em ployee of the Calgary health region. We are fully committed to work that’s being done by outside groups like the pharmac ists.

The C ollege of Pharmacists is interested in reviewing what happened here. There are many who are interested in getting to the bottom of this. Yes, there a re individuals that must be accountable for what happened in this circumstance, but just as important we have to go beyond that. Mere ly fi nding account ability for the i ndividuals involved is not sufficient. We must go further. We must understand how we can change the system so that we can take human error out of the system. Will our health care system ever be perfect?

It cannot because our system is always subject to the f railties of human judgme nt and human activit y. We need to look at this f rom a pa tient sa fety perspective and ask ourselves, Mr. Speaker: what can the system do from its point of view so that as much as possible we can take the frailties of human error out of the picture? Dr. Taft: Mr. Speaker, how can Calgarians trust the Calgary health region when just on e day after the region claimed that sim ilarly labelled chemic als we re to blam e for the medica l mixup, the company producing the chemicals said t hat the l abelling i s very different? Mr.

Mar: Mr. Speaker, we again are still allowing the process to be completed, the process wherein the region itself looks with a critical eye as to how this happened. They want to get to the bottom of this, and their motivation is exactly the same as, I would suggest, the hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview’s or mine or yours or any Alber- tan’s. The m otivation is this: we want a health care system that protects people, that helps them, that saves their lives, not one that harms them. So it’s for that reason that I ask the hon. member to put himself in the shoes of somebody with the regional health authority.

Is he suggesting that in fact people want to harm people in our health care system? The answer is of course no. Mr. Speaker, we are all owing this process to take place. If t he medical examiner recomm ends t o the Attor ney General’s fatality inquiry board that one should be constituted, we’ll fully participate in that.

I can say that in speaking with Greg Eberhart, the registrar of the College of Pharmacists, he too is interested in this, and it ’s the reason why we will be having a review, also an independent review by the Health Quality Council of Alberta, in collaboration with the national patient safety institute, getting to the issue of how w e can deal with produ cts that have potassium in them. I expect that the best practices from across the country will be reviewed so that we can help prevent this from happening again in the future. Dr. Taft: Mr.

Speaker, how can Calgarians trust the Calgary health region when this recent dialysis solution mix-up occurred four years after the Calgary health region assured Patricia Evans’ family that steps would be taken to prevent it from ever occurring again? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, I don’t wish to bring the individual cases before the floor of this Legislature and make a political statement out of it. I can tell you that, again, the people who work in the health region in Calgary, as they are throughout this province, are commit- ted to a health ca re sy stem that helps people, not one t hat harms them.

I think that Albertans an d Calgar ians who look at the circumstances here will understand that that is their motivation, and they seek not to correct something that may have happened in the past but to make sure that that correction is there for the benefit of people in the future. Dr. Taft: Mr. Speaker, Calgarians cannot trust the Calgary health region. Despite warnings from em ployees that the new central production pharmacy could lead to errors in the system, the Calgary health region publicly touted the new cost-saving facility as a safer way of dispensing medications. We need to shed light on this issue.

The public needs to know. Again to the same minister: how were employee concerns w ith the cent ral production pha rmacy and the tech-check-tech policy addressed by the Calgary health region? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, of course, we always look for efficiencies in the operations of our system but not at the cost of quality. I can assure you tha t Mr . Ebe rhart from the Coll ege of P harmacists is interested in finding out the bottom of this: how did this happen, and how can we make changes to the system to prevent it from happen- ing again?

The reg ional healt h authority, as I indicated, is also equally motivated in this. But I point out, Mr. Speaker, that at the outset, in answering the hon. member’s first question, I talked about the fact that our system is subject to the frailties of human error and human activity and that as long as w e ha ve people making judgme nts and people doing things in the health care system, our system is necessarily subject to errors a person may make and that there’s an enormous difference between a human error and a professional error. Such a human error could have been made by any one of a number of people.

It could

March 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 595 have been made by a pharmacy tech; it could have been made by a pharmacist; it could have been made by a doctor. So let us allow the system to go through the review so that we can find accountability for the individuals involved, but let’s also look at the bigger picture of how we actually make our system safer in the future. Dr. Taft: Will the m inister im mediately make public all written records of warnings and concerns raised by employees of the Calgary health region about the central production facility, including memos, e-mails, and minutes of meetings? Mr. Mar: Mr.

Speaker, I’ll take that question under advisement. I don’t know, personally, of any particular documents that the hon. member refers to, so I’ll have to take that under advisement accord- ingly. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. What re assurances will this minister offer employees of the Calgary health region who want to speak up on this issue but are frightened to do so? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, again, everybody is motivated by the right thing. I would say this.

If the hon. member is suggesting that this should be an exercise simply in naming and blaming and shaming individuals, then it will have the exact opposite effect of what he’s trying to accomplish, which is to bring this out into the full fullness of light. Mr. Speaker, what I’ve suggested to you is that we are interested in getting to the bottom of this. There will be a complete, full, and frank disclosure of what’s happened. It think that it’s important we do that from a patient safety initiative.

If the hon. member wishes to go on this name and blame and shame route, all it will do is the next time somebody dies, there might not be such full and frank disclo- sure that in fact an error was made. He will have the exact opposite effect of what he’s trying to accomplish, which is to make our system safer. The Speaker: Third Official Opposition main question. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. SuperNet Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The SuperNet boondoggle has already cost taxpayers $193 million, and despite promises that any cost overruns would be paid for by Bell West, j ust last Friday the government had to provide $ 1.2 mill ion to municipalities who could not aff ord the hook-up f ee. The tab for hook ing up the SuperNet to the rem aining 4,400 sc hools, librari es, and public buildings is $17.6 million. My questions a re to the Ministe r of Innovation and Science. Where is the $17.6 million coming from? The province? Or will it be downloaded onto the municipalities? 1:50 Mr. Doerksen: Mr. Spe aker, there are s ome things I can a ccept.

One is where people might have a difference of opinion with respect to a value of a par ticular project. In the case of the Sup erNet, a project that connects libraries, schools, hospitals, and government buildings, that is provided for in the $193 million. That means that all 4,700 locations are hooked up to the door. What I cannot accept is a press release that, frankly, is incorrect, because municipalities were never included in the hook up and are not included in the contract. M r.

Speaker, I’m going to ask the Minister of Municipa l Affairs to suppl ement, but I would a sk the Alberta Liberal opposition to withdraw their press rel ease and the facts that I think are recorded on their web site. Mr. Boutilier: Mr. Speaker, last Thursday a member of the opposi- tion berated the government for doing nothing to help municipalities. On their web site on Frida y they’re criticizing the government for doing something. What I find intere sting – and I take the quote from Thursday’s Hansard – is the “prohibitive costs [cr eating] barriers for rural residents” when it comes to access to technology.

The member then went on to say – and I quote from Hansard – “how are cash-strapped [municipalities] ever going to afford to join up?” I said: please stay tuned. We announced on Friday that every municipality in this province is hooked up now, and they’re saying no. So I am encouraging every Albertan to go to ww.liberal.com so they can see the untruths that are on their web site. Ms Blakeman: Can’t even get the web site right.

To the same minister: given that to service each SuperNet hookup costs the user from $3,000 to $10,000 a year, will the taxpayers also be on the hook f or those co sts, which co uld be as much as half a billion dollars over the next 10 years? Mr. Doerksen: Mr. Speaker, again this is an example of trying to confuse the issue. There is the build cost of the SuperNet. That’s in a contract of $193 million.

In this ca se the m unicipalities are responsible for the connection charges, and the fact that they have approached us to help them get connected tells me that they’re very interested in being hooked up and having access to that service.

As far as the schools are concerned, there is a provision already in their budget and has been for a number of years to have them pay for the connection c harges to a certa in level s o they c an continue to deliver the pr ograms that people in larger centres are used to, so students in Rainbow Lake can have access to the sam e kind of quality of education that we’re used to in the major centres. Mr. Boutilier: Mr. Speaker, in the Hansard last Thursday members from the opposition said: how are you helping “struggling communi- ties, like the village of Heisler”?

The hon. member did sa y tha t they’re not receivi ng help. They’re part of the program that was announced on Friday . We’re helping them . The pre sident of t he AAMD a nd C is quoted a s saying: the g overnment listened, and they’re acting. They thank us for that. The president of the AUMA, Mr. Patterson, said: this is terrific for helping Alberta municipalities. In fact, what they’re saying on their web site is shameful. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you.

Again to the Minister of Innovation and Science: given that the Minister of Economic Development believes that wireless technology is the future , how m uch more will this government spend bef ore the Super Net is re ndered usele ss by wireless technology? The Speaker: Well, now we’re getting into a real debate about the future. All I know is that we’re in the present. Be very, very brief. I don’t know where the crystal ball is here. Mr. Doerksen: Mr. Speaker, I’m happy to answer that one because there have always been wireles s soluti ons as part of t he or iginal intent of the Alberta SuperNet.

Wireless makes a whole lot of sense for short-haul distance s o yo u can get connected to that base

Alberta Hansard March 22, 2004596 network, which will carry the huge amounts of traffic and data that are required. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona, followed by the hon. Member for Wainwright. Calgary Health Region (continued) Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Since day one the Cal gary health region has been a laboratory for Tory privatization schemes. It’s been turned into a retirement resort for recycled Tories like Jim Dinning, Rod Love, and current CEO Jack Davis.

Whether it’s the decision to blow up hospitals and start building new ones, the Vince Motta fatality inquiry, or the rec ent tragic deaths i n the Foothills intensive care unit, the fingerprints of this Tory government are all over the long-standing problems at the Calgary health region. My question is to the Mini ster of Justice and Attorney General. How many more tragedies have to take place before cabinet orders a full public inquiry int o deep-seated systemic problems of the Ca lgary health region? Mr. Hancock: Mr.

Speaker, there have been in th e health system across this country, across North America situations where deaths have occurred accidentally, where serious incidents have occurred and need to be investigated and need to be learned from. We have a process in this pro vince as all p rovinces d o and, I t hink, mos t jurisdictions do. Under the Ministry of Justice i n this p rovince there’s a medical examiner’s office. The medical examin er has the jo b of an inde- pendent review of any unexplained death outside of hospital , any unexplained death in hospital, any death in cust ody.

The medical examiner does a thorough review of the circumstances of the death to find out the cause of death and the circumstances around it to determine whether there’s anything which can be learned from it. If in the course o f that investigation the medical examiner discovers information which oug ht to be brought to the attention of other investigating authorities , such as t he police, f or example, it’s his obligation to do that. Once he’s completed an investigation, he may report inappropriate circumstances to the Fatality Review Board.

The Fatality Review Board is a board of citizens of this province consisting of a lawyer, a doctor, and a citizen who’s not a lawyer or a doctor. Those three people look at the public interest side to determine whether further information is needed or whether it’s in the public interest to have a public fatality inquiry, and if they believe that it is, they recommend to the Minister of Justice that a public fatality inquiry be called.

I know of no circum stance w here they ’ve recommended a public fatality inquiry where one hasn’t be en called, but that dec ision obviously does rema in o ne for the Minister of Justice t o bring forward. So we do have a process, a public Fatality Review Board, and a process for inquiry to learn from unexplained deaths, whether in or out of hospital or anywhere else in this province. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To the same minister: given the most recent deaths in the ICU at Foothills hospital, how can the government continue to ig nore Judge Manfred Delong’s call for a public inquiry into the culture of denial at the Calgary regional health authority? Mr. Hancock: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would answer the question this way because I think the hon. member goes far beyond what we have at the current time. What we have at the current time is the medical examiner . . . [interje ction] The hon. member says, “Culture of denial.” There’s no denial involved in this.

The medical examiner is doing his job as he’s tasked to do, to do an independent review, to do a thorough examination of all of the circumstances surrounding those deaths, and when he has completed his investigation, he will make recommendations. There’s no denial in that. It’s a question of having the facts before you jump to conclusions. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My second supplementary is to the Minister of Health and Wellness.

Given that the Pharmacists Association of Alberta has been warning for months that a shortage of hospital pharmacists was endangering patient safet y, why is the government refusi ng to support the ir call for a public inqui ry into whether a shortage of qualified pharmacists may have contributed to the two tragic deaths in the ICU at Foothills hospital? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, I humbly apologize, but I couldn’t quite get the question that was be ing asked by the hon. member. I ’m not trying to avoid it, but perhaps he could repeat it. The Speaker: It doesn’t work that way.

There’s supposed to be total decorum in the House. The hon. Member for Wainwright, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Rural Economy Mr. Griffiths: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the past year Alberta has been hit by BSE, forest fires, extensive continued threats of drought, global security concerns, and a number of other issues. My constitu- ents are conc erned about the possible erosion of the Albe rta advantage. My question is to the Minister of Economic Develop- ment.

Can you please tell us how Alberta’s economy, particularly the rural economy, is expected to fare this year? 2:00 The Speaker: Hon. minister, we’re going into the future here. If the hon. minister has a c rystal ball that the res t of us don’t have, he should share it. Go ahead. Mr. Norris: Well, I don’t think it takes a crystal ball, Mr. Speaker, to see what’s going on in Alberta; I mean, drive down any highway or go visit any town or city in Alberta. I would like to answer the hon. member’s question in this way.

There’s a massive amount of focus in this Hous e about negativity and finding a nd identifying problems. However, Mr. Spea ker, in Alberta we have been challenged more than any other jurisdiction. [interjection] The hon. member likes to make light of it beca use he’ll probably never be over here talking as a government member.

However, we ar e v ery, v ery s ympathetic to w hat’s happened in Alberta not only through forest fires that caused massive devastation and the BSE, not only one bu t two mad cows – whil e they make jokes about it, we take it very seriously because it’s the livelihoods and the jobs of Albertans that are affected. As a result, to answer to the hon. member’s question, there have been a number of initiatives that have taken place for rural Alberta. As all members will know, the hon. Member for Wainwright as well as the hon.

Member for Innisfail-Sylvan Lake with the minister of agriculture recently released the rural development strategy, which speaks to the importance of rural Alberta. [interjections] You know,

March 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 597 Mr. Speaker, it’s ironic. When they ask questions, they don’t want to have answers. They just sit there with grins on their faces. It’s time to start listening about what’s building Alberta. It’s not negativity. It’s not c omments about how bad ever ything is. It’s understanding what the future holds, and what the future holds for this particular province is a healthy rural Alberta, healthy agriculture, healthy forestry.

The outlook for the future, to the hon. colleague’s question, is that Alberta once again, for the 10th year in a row – so listen to this – will lead the na tion in grow th at 3 and a half per cent, a nd the Conference Board of Canada says that for the next five years Alberta will continue to lead the nation. So the Alberta advantage is in pla ce. We’re going to keep working on it. I thank you for the question. I’m sad that th e sensitivity to the other Albertan s who have struggled so much doesn’t seem to resonate with the hon. members opposite. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Griffiths: Thank you, Mr.

Sp eaker. My only supplemental question to the sam e minister: what exactly is t he Department of Economic Development an d the minist er doing t o encour age economic development outside the Edmonton/Calgary corridor? Mr. Norris: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will try and be a little more brief. The question that’s posed by the hon. member is an excellent one. The Calgary/Edmonton corridor ha s been rank ed the nu mber one growth area in N orth America, second only to L uxembourg in the whole world. So, clearly, there is an awful lot of economic activity happening down highway 2 from Calgary to Edmonton.

What we’re concerned with as a departm ent and we’ve worked very, very hard with the hon. Deputy Premier is to identify opportu- nities for ru ral Alberta, and o ne of t he ways we do it is through regional economic alliances. Now, these alliances identify strengths and weaknesses of particular regions, rather than cities versus cities and counties versus counties. In our province we have 12 of them, Mr. Speak er. We si gned two of t hem most recent ly. T he hon. member for Lethbridge was at that signing.

What they do is take the region and talk about the strengths, because the global si te selectors, that everybody covets to come in and set up a new plant or a factory, do not ha ve time to come visit any more. They wa nt to talk very, very briefly on web sites, et cetera. So we’ve worked very hard with that, and we’re continuing, for the hon. member’s edification, to promote tourism as a great rural development tool. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Shaw. Occupational Health and Safety Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In 2003 124 Albertans died as a result of t heir work , compared to 98 in 2002 and 106 in 2001. Fifty-seven of last year’s work-related deaths were attributed to occupational disease. We need to reduce this frightening statistic. We need to reduce health care costs, a nd we nee d to improv e the health of Alberta workers. My first question is to the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

G iven that the minister has done some excellent work as far as reducing workplace incidents, will he initiate now a public information campaign for employers and employees to en sure that proper r espiratory equipment is supplied and worn on every dangerous job site across this province? Mr. Dunford: Well, that’s something that certainly we’ll take a look at, Mr. Speaker. We’ve tried to use this WorkSafe initiative on all fronts. We’ve tried as best we can to approach every work site here in Alberta and all of the different activities that are involved.

We’ve had a long array of different subinitiatives inside WorkSafe Alberta. I certainly would agree with the hon. member that the number of deaths in this province is stil l too many, and we have to do every- thing we can, working not only with the Department of Health and Wellness but also the Depart ment of Tr ansportation and other ministries, to get these numbers down. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDon ald: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Aga in to t he same minister: what effort is the m inister making to reduce workers’ exposure to toxic substances, that over a number of years can slowly kill that worker?

Mr. Dunford: Well, without the details actually in front of me, Mr. Speaker, I think I c an say that wit h the leg islation that we put i n place, with the regulations, and with the most recent publication of the safety code, we’ve looked at all aspects of activity at the work site. I can take it under advisement if he’s looking for actual technical details, but for the t ime being, I want to ass ure the hon. member that something as important as the environment in which we breathe will not and cannot be overlooked. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDon ald: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker.

A gain t o the same minister: given that in the last four years there has been an increase of more tha n 70 per cent in the nu mber of w orkers dy ing from occupational diseases on an annual basis, does the minister consider that the occupational disease reserve fund, which sits at $220 million and is h eld by the WCB, is a dequate to m eet the ne eds of f uture claims? Mr. Dunford: Well, ag ain, I be lieve the hon. member is on an important topic here. I believ e he’s already st ated in perha ps the

preamble t hat for m any of these occ upational dise ases tha t he’s talking about, it’s taken many, many years for the actual symptoms to come to light. Certainly, we expect and would want to monitor that the Workers’ Compensation Board, under its chair and all of the members that repre sent the e mployers, the e mployees, and t he public, would be cognizant of what future costs will be. They have, as I would under stand, actuaries that they’ll be able to work with. So it’ll be very important that they keep an eye on that fund. Now, where the challenge always comes, Mr.

Speaker, is that we must be aware that we’re not talking about taxpayers’ dollars here. We are talking about contributions that have been made to the fund by emplo yers. So it is ve ry, very imp ortant t hat any board for workers’ compensation that’s put in place be very, very judicial and meet their obligations that they have under the legislation. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Shaw, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Education Funding Mrs. Ady: Thank you, M r. Speaker. This gov ernment recently announced additional f unding for e ducation.

In s pite of th is, m y constituents continue to ask me w hy they are being ask ed to raise money to purchase textbooks and other le arning resou rces for the classroom. M y questions ar e for the Minister of Learning. Are parents required to purchase textbooks?

Alberta Hansard March 22, 2004598 Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent question, because last spring we responded to th is concern by adding $20 million to the Learning Resources Centre. This was money that the school boards could utilize to do things like purchase textbooks. In essence, it was a line of credit with the Learning Resources Centre. By spending the Learning Resources Centre monies, it would actually free up monies to do other things. So about a year ago we did make an announce- ment of $20 mi llion. That money subsequently went in t o allow them to purchase textbooks, things like that. Mrs.

Ady: I have one supplemental. If this extra $20 million dollars was put there to address these concerns, what has Alberta Learning done to ensure t hat school jur isdictions don’t mis s out on this opportunity? Dr. Oberg: Well, Mr. Speaker, that’s an excellent question as well, because what we found out is that up until about six weeks ago, 25 per cent of that money had not be en used; $5 m illion of the $20 million had not been us ed by sc hool boards to purchas e the tex t- books that, indeed, each and every member here had heard were so critically important to the school system.

That was why we had put in a $20 million line of credit. But only $15 million of that had been picked up to date. So what my department did was send out almost an emergency signal to the school boa rds saying that there is $5 million still available and they should use it. To date they a re working quickly and heartily to ensure that that is being used. The whole point of this is that I find it very interesting that when we put out the money, we all heard about not enough textbooks in the classroom, but th e school boards, i n effect, did not utili ze the dollars that were there to purchase the textbooks.

The Speak er: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Egmont. 2:10 Mathematics Curricula Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Adachi, a parent who’s been in conta ct wi th the Lea rning depart ment, is complet ely frustrated with the continuing mess that the department created with the introduction of pure, applie d, and transi tion mathematics programs. My questions are to the Minister of Learning.

Why are parents still in the position of trying to sort out different sets of rules offered by the Learning department, school districts, and secondary institutions with respect to these programs? Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, first of all, when it comes to pure math and applied math, there were certainly some questions when it was first brought in abou t fi ve or six years ago. One of the que stions, in general, was that students would have a much more difficult tim e with pure math, that students were having a very difficult time with applied math.

One of the things, as an aside to the hon. member, that I will say is that in this last set of diploma examinations, we had more students than ever ta king pure m ath. We ha d more students than ever succeeding at pure math. More stude nts have s ucceeded at pure math than succeeded at math 30 in the old system, so I will say that pure math has been a success. Where there has been some issue with applied math is in getting into postsecondary institutions.

All the postsecondary institutions have made abundantly clear in their catalogues that go out to each and every school to each and every student what will or will not be accepted. This is not necessarily specific to each and every institu- tion, but as a general rule a pplied math is accepte d for the non science-based faculties, Mr. Speaker. For example, my daughter is in grade 12, and she h as jus t been acc epted at the University of Lethbridge with applied math, without pure math.

So as a general rule what I w ould suggest to parents is that they get the catalogue from the postsecondary institutions, that they take a look at each individual application that they want to do. It is all laid out there very, very nicely for the parents and students. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Masse y: Thank y ou. Aga in to the sam e minis ter: why are transitions between applied math and pure math almost impossible given the course sequence requirements a nd the lack of course offerings? They can’t get the course. Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, a couple of things have happened with respect to this.

It soon becam e very apparent tha t there w ere students who would be enrolled i n applied m ath tha t wante d to proceed into pure math. There have been bridging courses put in at the postsecondary institutions. So you could have applied math, go into the postsecondary institution and take a bridging course to get into the pure math program, and subsequently go on if, for example, you wanted to change from an arts-based faculty to a science-based faculty.

Again, I’ll return the question by saying to the parents out there: make sure that you take a look at t he postsec ondary ins titution catalogues and make sure that you know that bef ore the s tudents apply. Dr. Massey: To the minister, Mr. Speaker: why were the changes introduced before pr oblems w ith accept ance of the courses by postsecondary institutions and sequencing were ironed out? Dr. Oberg: Mr.

Speaker, what happened was that initially when we talked to the postse condary institutions – an d I will dr aw the attention of the House to the fact tha t this was about two to three years ago – and pri or to the ac ceptance of the pr ograms, the universities and postsecondary institutions had told u s that they would be accepting applied math. What then happened about two months prior to the start of applied math 30 is that the University of Alberta said that it would not acce pt it. Thi s started a cascade of events where other institutions joined in.

We subsequently sat down with the postsecondary institutions at that time and determined that the rationale and reason behind what they said was that there was not enough I believe it was geometry – I may be correc ted on that – involved in the course. We subse- quently made some minor changes to applied math, and at that time they said that the applied math would be accepted when it came to the arts faculties. The majority of the postsecondary institutions in Alberta now have applied math and accept it for the arts fa culties.

To the science faculties though – and I completely concur with this – it should be pure math; it needs to be pure math. The other key component to this is tha t there has to be the bridging. The hon. member did speak one very important phraseol- ogy in my department, which was “transitions.” As a matter of fact, we have es tablished an exec utive directorship posit ion that deal s specifically with transitions, Mr. Speaker, which is a very important element of my department. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Egmont, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Drug-sniffing Dogs in Schools Mr.

Herard: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My first question is to the

March 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 599 Solicitor General. Last week the Solicitor General announced a canine sniff er progra m to help de tect ill egal drugs in our jails. Would the minister also consider randomly using these canine units to help ensure that our schools are also drug free? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mrs. Forsyth: Well, Mr. Speaker, thank y ou. The hon. member raises a very excel lent question. As he i ndicated, last week I did announce entering into an agreement to have dr ug dogs randomly search our jails a t all of our correcti onal fac ilities and re mand centres.

Over the year we would like the opportunity to evaluate the program to determine its success and whether or not to expand our own agreement. Mr. Speaker, I want to let the hon. m ember know that I do not have the authority to set up an agreement with the RCMP to search the schools, but it’s a very interesting idea, and I’ll be happy to share our findings with anyone else that’s interested in the program. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Herard: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My first supplementary is to the Minister of Learning. Mr.

Minister, do school boards have the necessary authority and protection under the priv acy laws to avail themselves of drug-s niffing canine units to help ensure that their schools are drug free? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That’s an excellent question as well. I do not as Minister of Learning have the authority to allow a drug-sniffing dog at a high school, for example, or a school of any sort. I will say, though, that the principal and the sc hool boar d do have the ability to do that.

As a matter of fact, in 1998 a Supreme Court decision upheld the right of having drug-sniffing dogs go in and randomly sniff lockers. So, Mr. Speaker, in direct response to the hon. member’s question, if the principal and the school board do say that they wanted to go ahead, yes, indeed it can go ahead, and the concerns about privacy are secondary to the concerns about finding illegal substances in the lockers of school-age children. Mr. Herard: Well, that’s good news, Mr. Speaker.

My final supp lemental to the Minister of Learning: would y ou consider, then, funding a drug-sniffing canine program and make it available to Alberta school boards to send a mes sage that illegal drugs will not be tolerated in our schools? Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, that’s an excellent question. Certainly, the Solicitor General and myself will be talk ing about this . Over t he past two to three months it’s become very apparent that such drugs as crystal meth have been appearing in our schools at a ver y alarming rate. It is also v ery apparent that something needs to be done.

I think tha t this certainly is one element that we can act on, but I think there are many other things that need to be done, and we do need to pu rsue this a s ignificant ways further . The Solic itor General and myself will be looking at this very important issue. Our schools cannot be places where drugs are being sold. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands. Protection of Wildlife Ms Carlso n: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

A nu mber of wildlife biologists and organizations for the protection of wildlife in Alberta have raised concerns about wolf and elk populations in and around our national parks. Low wildlife populations mean less biodiversity in our parks, indicating that our wildlife and our natural areas are not being properly cared for. To the Minister of Sustainable Resource Development: will this ministry conduct a proper spe cies count in order to determine what action needs to be taken to ensure that we have healthy wolf and elk populations here in Alberta? 2:20 Mr. Cardinal: Mr.

Speaker, because the mem ber is r eferring to wildlife, to parks, the Minister of Community Development will no doubt supplement my question because he is the person in charge of the parks. In relation to the wolves and also the elk population we do have many challenges when it comes to the animal population out there. The animals are getting urbanized. We have more wolves going into hamlets and towns and villages across Alberta. We have deer and elk and moose and coyote populations coming into town. They are getting very urbanized and we have a real challenge.

I know th at we have to work together to ensure that there is a balance, Mr. Speaker, because it’s also not healthy for the animals to be too tam e so that th ey s tart mov ing to urban c entres and depending on urban area s for th eir survival. I’ll give you an example. Last y ear there were over 16,00 0 accidents between vehicles and elk, moose, and deer, and, in fact, five fatalities. So we do have many challenges, and the Minister of Community Development may w ant to supplement in relat ion to the p arks themselves.

The Spe aker: I think w e should m ove on wi th the next question because of the time element today. Ms Carlson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: what plans does t his ministry have to e nsure that he althy prey/predator populations are maintained? Mr. Cardinal: Mr. Speaker, part of our plan, of course, is to sustain a balance. Again, the Ministe r of Commu nity Development may want to supple ment af ter.

My ministry m anages over a hundred million acres of public land, and there are multi-users on that public land, including the oil and gas industry, including the forest industry, including agriculture, tourism, and recreation users, and, of course, the wildlife users also. So it is a challenge, and you can be assured that we won ’t be shutting down the economy and sacrificing the economy unless we can put a balance in place. Ms Carlson: Mr. Speaker, to the same minister: what is this ministry doing to regulate human interaction with wildlife outside o f par k limits? Mr. Cardinal: Well, Mr.

Speaker, that is one of the challenges we have. When you say 16,000 accidents, the cost of that alone – and then we had five fatalities, which is nothing to be proud of. We do have a challenge out there. It will continue to be a challenge in the future. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Bow. Federal Aid to Cattle Industry Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. After spending $400 million in provincial taxpayers’ money, much of which seems

Alberta Hansard March 22, 2004600 to have gone to the fattening of the profit margins of U .S.-owned meat packers , it rem ains to be seen whether the latest federal government program will be any more effective in helping small and medium-sized cattle producers, yet the Premier can’t resist th e temptation to trash the federal initiative by calling it a p re-election ploy. My question is to the Minister of Finance. Is the government not concerned that such statements may jeopardize federal govern- ment aid to beef producers now or in the future? Mrs. Nelson: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it doesn’t matter what seems to come out; this hon. m ember has to be negative about it. Som eone mentioned that negativity was in this House constantly. This was a positive t oday f or our producers , that t he fe deral government came forwa rd, albeit we’ve been wa iting for this initiative to culminate and come forward. But today, clearly – let’s be very clear – in Lethbridge the Prime Minister did announce that there was a $995 million project coming forward; $680 million was going to be dedicated towards BSE relief. Today he announced this.

There would be $250 m illion in incom e support pay ments for all producers. This is part of the bridging process for the CAIS program that would be coming forward, and then there would be a top-up of the Canadian farm income program of $65 million. This is welcome news for Alberta’s producers. I can’t say how much they have suffered, Mr.

Speaker, becau se our minister of agriculture and rural development has expressed that far better tha n I, but I hav e been abl e to experience some of the meetings with her and seen the devastation that has occurred within the province of Alberta and realized that all the help that can come forward is absolutely necessary. We’ve been waiting for this federal announcement for quite some time, so we’re delighted that it has come forward, and I’m sure that our producers today are happy. Even though you are negative about the whole program, everybody else in the province will be happy that it’s finally come forward.

The Speak er: Just a se cond here. H old on. The chair is not negative, and the member speaks to the chair, so I sure hope that there are not people out there saying that the Speaker is negative. That would be wrong. Mr. Mason: We on our side consider you to be very positive indeed. I would just l ike to as k the Minis ter of Fin ance how she can reconcile this apparent support for this federal beef program with the Premier’s statement that this is simply a pre-el ection ploy by the federal Liberals? Mrs. Nelson: Mr. Speaker, let me clarify. My comment was not to suggest the chair was negative.

You’ve been absolutely supportive. Mr. Speaker, the key m essage on this whole pro gram from the federal government is in fact that they have recognized that they have a national responsibility to come to the table to bring aid and assistance to the devastation within the cattle industry, and clearly they have done that. Clearly, everyone knows that today , as we are sitt ing here, our Premier and minister of agriculture and rural development ar e i n Washington working to have the borders opened. Mr.

Speaker, our Premier and our minister of agriculture and rural development have led the way for Canada to a resolution of opening the borders and getting this market back into a w orking situation. So to have any kind of indication that there’s some negativity here attached to their efforts is wrong, and once again the member opposite is wrong. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Mason : Thank you ver y muc h, Mr. Speak er.

Giv en the apparent support for this fede ral BSE prog ram by Albert a be ef producers, is the government not worried that it will undermine the beef industry when it plays politics with this issue? Mrs. Nelson : Well, Mr. S peaker, if anyo ne rea d the memb er opposite’s news release today, you’d know who was playing politics and not very smart politics – I can tell you that right now – because rural Alberta supports this government, not that caucus. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Bow, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Family Violence Ms DeLong: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

As we focus on the obvious needs of wom en in dome stic viole nce, we must be careful that we do not demonize men in the process. Recently, after consultations with the Human Rights Commission, the Lethbridge police department removed an anti male police manual. My first question is to the Soli citor General. In l ight of the Human Rights Commission recom mendations will she direct al l A lberta law enforcement agencie s to revie w and eli minate all gender-biased training and public information materials? The Speaker: The hon. Solicitor General. Mrs. Forsyth: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I understand that about a year ago the L ethbridge Polic e Servic e published a bo oklet on domestic violence in the community. A complaint was made to the Alberta Human Rights Commission about the a bsence of gender- neutral language in the booklet. The booklet contained words like “he” and “h im” to describe the offender. The issue w as resolved very quic kly when the Let hbridge P olice Servi ce wi thdrew the publication and stopped distributing it. Mr.

Speaker, I think this shows how important it is for all of us to remember that domestic violence affects everyone: the husbands, the wives, the children, and the grandparents. In terms of gender bias in information from law enforcement agencies at this point this is one case in Lethbridge, over a year ago, that was addressed immediately. If the member has information about other cases, I would be glad to hear about them and take the appropriate action. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms DeLong: Thank you. This posi tive step will not end fam ily violence but may result in better law enforcement.

Will the Solicitor General take steps to en sure that all law enforcement office rs are proper ly tra ined to deal with dom estic violence in a fair and unbiased way? 2:30 Mrs. Forsyth: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we will. My department partici- pates in the provision of family violence training to police members. We’re working cur rently in c onsultation w ith Alberta Children’s Services and Alberta Justice to enhance police training in this area. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms DeLong: Thank you.

To the Minister of Justice: Alberta Justice is preparing new procedures to assist in dealing with family violence without gender bias. Will women’s and men’s advocacy groups be consulted in this work?

March 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 601 Mr. Hancock: Well, Mr. Speaker, any time we engage in consulta- tion, we dea l with al l of the s takeholders that are involved i n the area. We’re very happy to be working with Children’s Services, the Solicitor General, Health and Wellness, and many other government departments with the family violence round-table initiative to talk about family violence. It’s an issue that’s very, very important to Albertans, and it shouldn’t be swept under the rug . It should be brought out and discussed.

We should understand that if we want to feel safe in our homes, we have to talk about the problem of domestic violence, family violence. We shouldn’t get sidetracked in that discussion with respect to the question of whether it’s violence by men against women or violence by women against men or, for that matter, violence by men against men or wom en agains t wome n. What w e’re talking about i s violence, and we need to deal with the violence. We need to deal with the violence through our processes. We have some very wonderful initiatives in this provi nce.

The domestic viole nce co urt, or Ho meFront as i t is no w k nown, in Calgary, a wonderful community-driven project to dea l with domestic violence in a most appropriate way, to get people into the system and out of the system as fast as possible, and to get treatment where it’s appropriate so people understand the effect of violence on children, the effect of violence on families. The recidivism rate in that HomeFront project shows that we can and w ill do something about domestic violence in our homes and in our communities and that we can do that if the community pulls together.

But let’s not get sidetracked on issues of gender. Violence can happen in any number of different ways, and while the majority of reported instances are instances of men initiating violence against women, we need not get into the bias of that discussion, becau se violence is violence regardless of whether it’s perpetrated by a man, a woman or whether it’s in the house or in the community. The Speaker: Hon. members, today there will be seve n members participating in Recogni tions, and w e’ll start in about 30 se conds from now foll owing your appro val for Introduc tion of G uests if that’s given.

Okay? [Unanimous consent granted] head: Introduction of G uests (reversion) The Speaker: The hon. Member for Grande Prairie-Smoky. Mr. Knight: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. It certainly is a great pleasure for me to rise today on behalf of myself and my colleague from Grande Prairie-Wapiti to introduce to you and through you to the Legislative Assembly 28 energetic and talented students from the Sexsmith/La Glace schools junior high band. They’re in Edmonton for th e Alber ta Interna tional Band Fe stival toda y, and the y are accompanied by Mr. D uane Paulson, Mrs . Liz G ood-Gerow, Mr. Greg Sandboe, and Mr.

Bill Lappenbush and Mrs. Tina Lappenbush. I would ask them all to please rise now a nd receive the war m welcome of this Assembly. head: Recognit ions The Speaker: The hon. Member for St. Albert. L’école La Mission Mrs. O’Neill: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last Tuesday evening the entire school co mmunity of l ’école L a Mission in S t. Albert celebrated with their usual joie de vivre the official opening of the first francophone school in A lberta bu ilt exclusively for Charter

section 23 students. I wish to congratulate chairman Claude Duret and the trustees of Le Conseil Scolaire Centre-Nord on the official formal opening of this beautiful and highly functional building. It i s truly a facility designed to embody and encourage a high-quality learning environ- ment. I would especially like to commend the parents of l’école La Mission, who have worked so hard over the past 10 years and who have held onto their dreams so tenac iously for a prope r school building with all its amenities for their children. I am very pleased that the co nstituency of St.

Alber t that I’m proud to represent in this Assembly has a truly francophone school the environm ent of w hich enlive ns and enli ghtens our broader community. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul. Zicki Eludin Mr. Danyluk: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is my pleasure to rise in the Assembly today to recognize an extraordinary individ- ual from my constituency. On Saturday, March 13, Zicki Eludin was the recipient of a volunteer award granted by the Land Stewardship Centre of Canada. These awards recognize exemplary environmental stewardship efforts by Canadians.

Zicki was a warded this honour in ac knowledgment of his leadership excellence with the Lac La Biche Fisheries Enhancement Group and the Lac La Biche Watershed Steering Committee. He has played a key role in the success of both groups. Zicki’s leadership abilities, hard work, enthusiasm, and commitment to conservation have greatly benefited the fisheries ecosystems in the Lac La Biche region. I congratulate Zicki Eludin and w ould ask all members of this Assembly to join me in commending his accomplishments and his dedication to land and water stewardship. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon.

Mem ber for Sp ruce Grov e-Sturgeon-St. Albert. St. Peter the Apostle Parish Choir Mr. Horner: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my pleasure to rise in the Assembly today to acknowledge the outstanding performances of the St. Peter the A postle parish choir, who have been recently recognized in my constituency for their inspirational and compelling dramatic performances and for the sincere generosity and charity that they have shown towards the St. Albert-Sturgeon community. A couple of weeks ago I ha d t he op portunity of attending t he musical play Mary’s Veil at the St. Albert Arden Theatre.

This is the second year of performances to sellout crowds. It was written by the community’s own Sandra Brenneis, who also performs along with her sister the former MLA for Spruce Grove- Sturgeon-St. Albert and chairperson of the West Sturgeon Aging In Place Society Foundation, Ms Colleen Soetaert, who, I might ad d, gives a compelling and heartfelt performance along with the rest of the parish choir performers. These performers’ depiction and commitment in Mary’s Veil was poignant and riveting.

They display ed a wondrous ability in their craft as we ll as a s incere g enerosity, which has been imm ense considering that all proceeds from the musical will go towards the West Sturgeon Aging in Place Society Foundation.

Alberta Hansard March 22, 2004602 I would like to c ongratulate Ms Sandra B renneis and the entire cast of community volunteers for their service to our community. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. World Water Day Ms Carlson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. March 22 is World Water Day, and this year’s theme focuses on water and disasters. We have seen our share of floods and droughts in Alberta, and in a province that has grown so quickly over the years, water has become an issue of grave concern.

T he water scarcity crisis w e are facing has the potential to disrupt the economy, weaken the poor and vulnerable, and impede sustainable development and the reduction of poverty as it has done in so many other countries. The message imparted by this year’s World Water Day theme is to be informed and be prepared, which is precisely what Alberta must do in order to avoid a severe water scarcity crisis. For years now I have advocated the proper stewardship of our water, but questions continue to arise over the government’s long-term plans to ensure that our water is safe, clean, and in healthy supply.

We must prohibit the use of fresh water for oil injection and focus on other cho ices. We must also ensure that our dr inking water is being treated and handled with the utmost care and the best technol- ogy. We must take action now to ensure a healthy water supply now and in the future. I urge the government to take on this challenge. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Cardston-Taber-Warner. Cardston High School Lady Cougars Mr. Jacobs: Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

It is my pleasure to rise in this Assembly toda y to rec ognize the Cardston hig h school La dy Cougars, who on Saturday, March 20, won the 3A girls provincial basketball championship. The team is comprised of Haley Fox, Joni Low, Lindsay McMurray, Julie McMurray, Megan Nelson, Alisha Nelson, Ken zie S heen, S adie Tho mas, Kate lyn Too ne, Brandie Walburger, Kim Young, and coaches Tim Court and Jason Janisko. The tournament took place in the newly modernized Cardston high school gymnasium and consisted of the 12 best 3A girls basketball teams in the province.

The championship game took place in front of 1, 200 fans. T he Cardston L ady Coug ars fa ced the Ma grath Pandas, another southe rn Alberta team from the Westwind school division, in the final match. Mr. Speaker , I would li ke to cong ratulate t he Cardston L ady Cougars on their achievement in winning this year’s provincials and on an outstanding season o f 16 and 0. This team has displayed remarkable talent and skill during an exceptional season of basket- ball. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Leduc. Black Gold School Division Mr. Klapstein: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I’m pleased to recognize the Black Gold regional school division for establishing its healthy hearts program . The prog ram is being devel oped to increase physical activity among staff and students in 14 schools in the division. Alberta Learning is funding the project through the initiative for school improvement program. T he U niversity of Alberta has partnered with the Black Gold school division to pr ovide the necessary cardiovascular health assessments needed in the program.

The project is certainly a commendable undertaking, particularly because of its emphasis on a healthy lifestyle for staff and students, and I thank the Minister of Learning, the Hon. Ly le Oberg, for his support of the program. The Speaker: And the hon. member knows he’s not supposed to mention members by name. Mr. Klapstein: Sorry. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. 2:40 Tegler Trust and Tegler Foundation Dr. Taft : Thank you, Mr. Speak er. The Tegler Trust w as estab- lished in 1921 on the death of businessman Robert Tegler. The trust has supported charities ever since.

In Ju ne 1981 the trustees of the Tegler Foundation made a decision to fund a major project, a senior citizens’ high-rise apart- ment building named Teg ler Manor. In 1993 the Tegler Trust opened another major project, the 83-suite Tegler Terrace, located in the Edmonton-Riverview constituency at 9918-149th Street. Its construction carries on the T egler tradition of r ed brick and stone pillars.

The Tegler Trust is presently working with the John Janzen Nature Centre in Edmonton on t heir revi talization p roject, and they’re having discussions with the Alberta Sa fety Council for funding towards a safety village in Strathcona county. The Tegler Founda- tion has also acquired additional properties for residences for low- income people. Part of the f oundation’s philosophy is to provide a safe, secure community while e ncouraging volunteerism from its residents. I commend the trustees of the Tegler Foundation. Thank you. head: Present ing Pet itions The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona.

Dr. Pannu: Thank you very much, Mr . Speaker. I’m pleased to present a petition s igned by 99 Alberta seniors pe titioning the Legislative Assembly to urge the government of Alberta to recognize and value the contrib utions and sacrifices the seniors have made in building the Province of Alberta, and treat them with due respe ct and dig nity by reve rsing t hose p olicies that cause unnecessary financial hardship for them and undermine their quality of life. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I’m presenting a petition signed by 202 Albertans petitioning the Legislative Assem- bly to urge the government of Alberta to “ret urn to a regulated electricity sys tem, reduce power bills, and de velop a prog ram to assist Albertans in improving energy efficiency.” head: Notices of Motions The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. I’m giving notice that at the appropriate time I will rise under Standi ng Order 40 to propose a

March 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 603 motion. The contents of this have been already distributed t o members in the Assembly. Thank you. head: Tabling R eturns and R eports The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Justice and Attorney General. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two tablings. The first is a copy of a memorandum directed to yourself from myself but signed by myself as Go vernment House Leader, the Offic ial Opposition House Le ader, and the New D emocrat Party H ouse Leader. It sets out the

schedule which has been agreed to by all three party House leaders with respect to the

schedule for Committee of Supply. Under Standing Order 58(6), of course, it provides that the Leader of the Official Opposition may, by giving written notice to the Clerk and the Government House Leader prior to noon on the day following the Budget Address, designate which d epartment’s estimates are to be considered by the Committee of Supply on any Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday afternoon. Our normal course is to discuss these matters and come up with an agreed-upon schedule, and that’s the

schedule which I’m tabling today. I’ve tabled five copies of that schedule, but I would also note that in the memorandum it indicates that the departments of Revenue and Finance are both sc heduled for t he evening of April 21, and that requires unanimous consent of the House under 58(2) because under 58(2) of the Standing Order s th e number of sitting days t hat it’s called to consider shall equal the number of members of Executive Council. Having two on that one sitting day would require unani- mous consent of the House, so I would request the Speaker to ask for unanimous consent of the House for that particular mat ter in accordance with the

schedule as agreed between the House leaders. The Speaker: Hon. members, I have a question, though, first of all. Not all hon. members in the Assembly have a copy of this particular document. Would my assumption be correct? Mr. Hancock: Yes. The Speaker: So I will wait until all hon. members have a copy of such document, and I will deal with the question as we proceed with the point of orde r and the Sta nding Order 40 application this afternoon. I think that in fairness to all hon. members they should have in their possession such a document. The hon. Minister of Community Development. Mr.

Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure to table the appropriate number of copies today of a c ommuniqué that I issued on March 19 on b ehalf of the government and, I hope , all Albertans saluting and reco gnizing the Inte rnational Da y for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, which, of course, was yesterday, March 21. In i t we are just all reminded that we have a responsibility amongst us to ensure that all fundamental rights and freedoms are saf eguarded f or A lbertans and others in this great world. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Ms Blakeman: Thank you.

I have two tablings today. The first is from Chris Callaghan, who’s writing to me and making note that this senior couple can aff ord insurance premium s no longer. Their insurance will not be renewed. They’re also having to curtail other small p leasures “in order to pay for the rising costs of utilities, property taxes, etc.” I have the appropriate number of copies to table.

Also, I would lik e to table five copies of a general notice f rom Morgex Insurance to members of the Alberta Teachers’ Association in which the y note that “the Government imposed Rate Fre eze of Auto Insurance premiums is not applicable to policies that are being issued with a new insurance c arrier.” That, in fact, Morgex did in the summer of 2003. Thank you very much. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Justice and Attorney General. Mr. Hanco ck: Thank y ou, Mr. Speak er.

I ris e to table in the Assembly today on behalf of the Minister of Finance the requisite number of copies of the Report of Selected Payments to Members and Former Members o f the Leg islative Assem bly and Pers ons Directly Associated with Members of the Legislative Assembly for the year ended March 31, 2003. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two tablings today. I’m tabling five copies of a letter dated January 5, 2004, from Ms Bev McKay, president of Familie s Allie d to Influenc e Responsibl e Eldercare, addresse d to the Prem ier.

Ms McKay is draw ing the Premier’s attention to the Toronto Star’s “recent investigative report on the political neglect of Ontario’s long-term care system.” She is alerting the Premi er to the de clining qual ity of long-term care in Alberta and urging him to take action. My second tabling is a New Democrat opposition document titled Scrap Health Premiums: It’s Good Medicine. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: Hon. mem bers, we have a r equest f rom the hon. Government House Leader to deal with a motion, but I’m not going to call that until, first of all, hon. members have a copy. Mr.

Clerk, were such copies being made available? Okay. Then we’ll deal with the point of order by the Government House Leader first because if the House a pproves the Standing Or der 40 application, there will be no opportunity to deal with such. The Government House Leader. Point of Order Referring to Nonmembers Mr. Hancock: Thank y ou, Mr. Speaker. My point of order is a relatively brief one in nat ure, and I would r efer y ourself a nd members of the House to Beauchesne’s 493(4) and 493(3).

Beau- chesne’s 493(4) indicates that “the Speaker has cautioned Members to exercise great care in making statements about persons who are outside the House and unable to reply.” The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona in a

preamble to his question referred to the Calgary health authority as being a place for retired Tories and named a former provincial treasurer and a former member – I won’t s peculate on the constitue ncy because I don’t remember it right now – personally but then also went on to name the CEO of the Calgary health authority, Mr. Jack Davis. Now, Mr. Jack Davis was not a member of this House and was a senior deputy minister, in fact , Deputy Minister of Exec utive Counci l in this government. While it may be a very honoured designation for many Albertans, it was not appropriate for him to include that person as a retired Tory in his

preamble.

Alberta Hansard March 22, 2004604 I would suggest that the hon. member should be r equested to withdraw the reference to individuals not in this House, particularly when he’s suggesting that a former civil servant and someone who was the most senior civil servant in the province is a retired Tory. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands on this point of order. Mr. Mason: Thank you very m uch. I’d like to respond to that briefly, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Government House Leader is quite correct in pointing out the suggestion, but the wording of this

section gives quite a bit of latitude to the Speaker with respect to this matter. 2:50 I woul d submit tha t the people involved – a lso the for mer executive assista nt to the Prem ier w as mentione d – are all very closely associated with this government and its policies. The point being made is that there is a certain amount of patronage related to the Calg ary health authority .

I believ e that all people who are mentioned were in fact very closely associated with the government and it s policies and have be en put in var ious positions w ith th e Calgary health author ity in ord er to car ry out the policies of this government with respect to health care, with which we respectfully disagree. So I would submit, Mr. Speak er, that it ’s not a va lid point of order. It’s simply stating what to us is clearly the case. Thank you. The Speaker: Well, hon. members, there are two citations here that should come into play.

One thing I sincerely hope is that members will not start to believe that there’s considerable latitude given to the chair to be subjective about these things because that would put the chair into a horrendous position. Let me just quote, first of all, from House of Commons Procedure and Practice, Marleau and Montpetit, page 524.

The Speaker has ruled that Members have a responsibility to protect the innoce nt, not o nly f rom o utright slande r but fr om any slur directly or indirectly implied, and has stressed that Members should avoid as much as possible mentioning by name people from outside the House who are unable to reply and defend themse lves against innuendo. I might also point out Beauchesne paragraph 493(4), which essen- tially has the same thing. Today here is what the hon.

Membe r for Edm onton-Strathcona said; this is the second statement in the question: “It’s been turned into a retirement resort for recycled Tories like Jim Dinnin g, Rod Love, and current CEO Jack Davis.” Now, I do k now that at least one of these individuals is certainly a former member of this House under the politica l term Progressive Conserv ative, the other one never was elect ed, and th e third one certainly didn’t fall in that particular situation.

Out of interest over the weekend I was reading something, and it had to do with an interview in one of the major urban papers about one of the current members in the House today. There’s a paragraph in there about the hon. member basically saying that he had been an adviser to a former Premier of the province’s government – this is not a correct quotation; it’s not a disservice, but it sort of sums up to the same thing – and the hon. member said with a big smile on his face: wow, if they’d only known that I’d been a sleeper Liberal for 18 years as an adviser to them.

So you can never really be sure what the politics of anybody are. In the c ase of the naming of this one particular individual, Jack Davis, former deputy m inister, the f act tha t he ma y have been a Deputy Ministe r of Exe cutive Counc il could not sug gest f or a moment that he was in fact one. I found that

article rather elucidat- ing. Certainly, from what I’ve j ust quoted from Montpetit and I’ve quoted from Beauchesne, that basically we have to protect, it is a valid point of order, Government House Leader, in my view. A valid point of order. In fact, one should be very careful not to bring into question individuals who cannot defend themselves. It’s not a good thing to do by innuendo. I don’t know if we want to quarter and draw the hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. He knows better. He’ll stand up and say he knows better, and I’ll ask him to say that, and then we’ll move on. Dr. Pannu: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly respect your direction, and I won’t err next time around. Thank you. The Speaker: Okay. Request for Unanimous Consent Committee of Supply

Schedule The Speaker: Now, the pages are going to circulate the document that the hon. Government House Leader referred to. I think that it’s important that we deal with this one now. In the event that you give Standing Order 40 application approval, then we would not have a chance to deal with it. So I’ll wait a second here to make sure that everybody has this. Opposition House Leader, do your members have a copy of the document we’re talking about? Third party?

So as I understand this – pages, just continue doing as I talk – the Government House Leader, the Official Opposition House Leader, the third party House leader have gotten together, done what they’re supposed to do in try ing to bridge all the g aps and dea l with everything, but there’s a requirement now to waive Standing Order 58(2) where it says: “The number of sitting days that the Committee of Supply is c alled to c onsider the m ain estimates shall equal the number of members of the Executive Council with portfolio.” This particular scenario that’s been agreed to by the three House leaders would have us not really needing that intent.

So the questio n here is : is the Assembly pre pared to waive Standing Order 58(2)? Is t here clear understanding? Opposi tion House Leader, clear understanding? Third party House leader, clear understanding? Okay. Then I’ll call the question. Is the Assembly in favour of waiving Standing Order 58(2) so that we might proceed with the 2004 spring sitting of the legislative Committee of Supply calendar as tabled in the House today? [Unanimous consent granted] Mr. Hancock: Just on a point, Mr. Speaker. I noted that on the document that c irculated, the date i s March 23, a nd obviously it should have been March 22.

I wonder if the official document could be corrected in that regard? The Speaker: Actually, in the question that I gave, it didn’t have the date of the document. Mr. Hancock: No, no. I’m just talking about the document that was tabled. The Speaker: Yes, I know. But I didn’t say that in my motion. Mr. Hancock: No, you didn’t. Okay. The Speaker: It should be ok ay. But officially th is document is

March 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 605 March 22, not March 23, for all intents and purposes. Anyb ody opposed to that? Okay. head: Motions under St anding Order 40 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Calgary Health Region Dr. Taft:

Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly urge the government to appoint an independent, nonpartisan commission under the Public Inquiries Act which shall (1) inquire into the circumstances and the effect of government policies, procedures , and practi ces in t he Calga ry hea lth region that led to incorrect dialysis solutions being given and subsequently resulting in the deaths of Kathleen Prowse and Bart Wassing, (2) examine any is sues the c ommission d eems necessary to ensure that health services are being appropriately managed and delivered by the Calgary health region and the govern- ment, and (3) make findings and recommendations to ensure the appropri- ate management and delivery of health services in Calgary to protect the health and safety of Calgarians.

Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today on a Standing Order 40 application to present a motion to the Assembly. As you know, Standing Order 40 applications are to be made in case of urgent and pressing necessity. I can think of no matter more pressing than addres sing the m ismanagement of ser vices t hat Albertans rely on when they are sick and in need of medical attention. Mr. Speaker , if this sounds fam iliar, it’s because I asked this Assembly to consider a similar motion less than two weeks ago for a public i nquiry into C algary’s emergency health se rvices. This Assembly turned that motion down.

Well, h ere we are two weeks later, and after learning of two more needless deaths in the Calgary health region, I’m again asking this Assembly to consider a public inquiry. This time I’m asking for a public inquiry to look into the circumstances and the effect of government policies, procedures, and practices in the Calg ary he alth r egion that led to the incorrect dialysis solutions being given to Kathleen Prowse and Bart Wassing.

As well, this public inquiry would examine any issues they deem necessary to ensure that health services are being appropr iately managed and d elivered by the Calgar y heal th region a nd this government. This public inquiry is necessary, Mr. S peaker.

It is necessary because only six months after the Calgary health region vowed that recommendations made by the fatality inquiry into Maren Burkhart’s death would be carried out, Vince Motta d ied under similar circumstances. 3:00 This public inquiry is necessary because the fatality inquiry into Vince Motta’s death found that the Calgary health region provided information that, quote, l ent itself to confusion or was capable of misleading the inquiry, end quote.

This public inquiry is necessary because the Calg ary health region assured us after Vince Motta’s death that they would take action to make things better in Calgary’s emergency rooms, but things have only gotten worse. This public inquir y is ne cessary because just one day after the Calgary health region claimed that similarly labelled chemicals were to blame for the recent medical mix-up, the company that produces the chemicals said that the labelling is actually quite different.

This public inquiry is necessary because this recent dialysis solution mix- up occurre d four years after the Ca lgary health region assured Patricia Evans’ family that steps would be taken to prevent this sort of error. Most importantly, Mr. Speaker , this public inquir y is necessary because Calgarians no longer trust the Calgary health region. The Calgary health region is the largest government body in Calgary, and it is charged with managing and delivering health services. It has proven that it can no longer be trusted to do this.

It’s time to end the practice of political patronage appointments in the Calgar y heal th region. I t’s time to end the C algary health region’s preoccupation with saving face over saving lives. It’s time to shed light on the management of the Calgary health region and the role that this government has played in allowing it to deteriorate. For the health workers in Calgary who work valiantly to keep the system afloat and for the hundreds of thousands of Calgarians who rely on the health services that the Calgary health region provides, Mr.

Speaker and all members of this As sembly, I am a sking this House to vote to change things for the better. Thank you. [Unanimous consent denied] head: Orders of t he Day head : Written Ques tions The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. Proper notic e having been given on T hursday, March 18, it’s my pleasure to move that written questions appearing on today’s Order Paper do stand and retain their places. [Motion carried] head: Motions for Retur ns The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

P roper notice having been given on Thursday, March 18, it is my pleasure to move that motions for returns appearing on today’s Order Paper do stand and retain their places with the exception of motions for returns 3, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 100, 101, 102, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 159, 160, 162, 164, 165, 166, 167, and 168. [Motion carried] The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Expenses for Minister of Energy M3. Mr.

MacDonald moved that an order of the A ssembly do issue for a return showing a breakdown of the Minister of Energy’s expenses, including but not limited to airfare, food, accommodation, and conference fees, from March 1, 2001, to February 17, 2004. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I think it is very, very important that w e have a look at the se expenses and a breakdown of the Minister of Energy’s travels. They have been, to say the least, exten sive. We’re looking at least at 22 trips, and the

Alberta Hansard March 22, 2004606 minister has certainly gone beyond Wetaskiwin. There are undis- closed locations i n Califor nia; Tex as with other me mbers of Executive Council; New York City, of course; Moose Jaw, Saskatch- ewan; Washington, D.C.; Anchorage, Alaska; Dawson City, Yukon; Texas again, thi s time Dallas; Halifax, Nova Scotia; Ka nsas; the capital city, Ottawa; again to Washington; San Francisco, California; Portland, Oregon; back to Halifax; Rome; T ucson; back to Texas; Olympia, Washington; Portland, Oregon; Washington, D.C.; Casper, Wyoming; Chicago, Illinois; New Orleans, Louisiana.

T here are many different places. Certainly, the re is eve n a trip – and t here was quite a f amous speech made by the Ministe r of Energ y – to Rio de Janeiro. I believe it was an energy conference. The text of that speech was put on the Department of Ener gy’s website, and it wa s an intere sting read. So a lot of information would come from this motion for a return in light of, you know, the expenses by this government, by Executive Council. There has certainly been an increase in the level of travel. The taxpayers have ev ery right to know the break down of the Minister of Energy’s expenses.

Certainly, the taxpayers could be of the i mpression that the hon. minister was t ravelling extensi vely looking for a new energy policy because the current one i s no t working. All the se conference fees, accommodations, airfare – I think it’s a good idea. The hon. Minister of Justice a nd Attorney General state d tw o weeks ag o in this As sembly, I believ e, that he be lieved tha t th e government was open and transparent and accountable. So now is this government’s chance to back that up. Thank you. Mr. Jonson: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Ener gy I’d like to recom mend that the Assembly reject this motion since t he information sought by the member is available to the general public. Travel is part of the job of any government. A lberta is an exporting province a nd relies heavily on capital investment from outside the province. Ministerial missions occur in order to promote Alberta businesses, products, and services to international customers, to attract investment to the province, and they serve also to encour- age new businesses to move to Alberta. So it’s a given that we have to have contac ts.

We have to take t he initiative in attra cting this economic development to this province. Mr. Speaker , ministe rs also pa rticipate i n federa l/provin- cial/territorial ministerial meetings with their counterparts. These meetings are va luable inter governmental for ums to a dvance the views and priorities of Albertans. There have also been over 130 provincial, territorial, and federal meetings over the time period that is i n question. More information on those m eetings is available through the Canadia n Inte rgovernmental Conference Secretariat website at www.scics.gc.ca.

Prior to embarking on any foreign mission, ministers are required to issue a ne ws release which includes itineraries, a list of those travelling, the estimated cost, and the reason for the trip. As well, each year the Ministe r of Finance tables the report of the selected payments to mem bers and f ormer Me mbers of the Legislati ve Assembly and persons directly associated with the Members of the Legislative Assembly pursuant to sectio n 37(4) of the Legislat ive Assembly Act and

section 16(1) of the Conflicts of Interest Act. 3:10 Mr. Speaker, in addition to payments being required by legislation to be reported, this report includes other payments to MLAs such as remuneration, benefits and expenses, and payments t o fo rmer members under the Members of the Legislative Assembly Pension Plan Act and the public service pension plan. Mr. Speaker, energy-related missions have been very successful lately. They’ve led to face-to-face meetings with the vice-president of the United States to talk about how Alberta can contribute to the new U.S. energy strategy.

They’ve also led to literally thousands of key decision-makers around the world learning a great deal about the energy sector in Alberta and investment opportunities. Finally, because the Auditor General of Alberta annually reviews the records of governm ent departm ents as pa rt of his ong oing responsibilities, if ther e were any issues concerning inappropriate expenses, they would be identified by the Auditor General’s review. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Well, I would like to speak in favour of the relea se of this information. I was quite surprised when the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar itemized the various de stinations of the Ministe r of Energ y. Tha t was a tremendous travelogue, I would say. I reject the arguments put forward by the minister of intergovern- mental affairs that we don’t need to know this information because they were all valuable and important conferences and m eetings. That’s not the quest ion. The question is not whether or not these were worth while. The question is: h ow much was spent in which areas on these trips? The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar has asked that questi on, and there is no good reason in my view for a lack of complete transparency on this question, and I really wonder why the minister – I’ve got to get his title right. Ms Carlson: Intergovernmental . . . Mr. MacDonald: Affairs . . . Mr. Mason: Intergovernmental affairs. That’s it? Ms Carlson: International and intergovernmental affairs. Mr. Mason: International and intergovernmental affairs. Thank you very much, hon. member. The Speaker: Actually, it’s Internatio nal and Intergovernmental Relations. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate that. [interjections] I can imagine what would happen if we had a motion for a return on that. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, you know, the fact that the Auditor General will look at it i s not a good argument either because the Auditor General will have a look at it and he will just ma ke su re tha t everything is in order; that is to say, that it’s within the policies and so on and that all things are properly expensed. The question is whether or not the public would approve of these expenditures. That’s the question. It’s a political question, not an accounting question.

As a result, I would suggest that we ought to reject the hon. minister’s proposal and accept this question. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Steven s: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to make a f ew comments with respect to this matter. I think it’s fair to say that this Assembly has a procedure with respect to accounts. The question here is with respect to expenses, and expenses are accounts. Both of

March 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 607 the members w ho have spoken from the opposite si de ar e very familiar with these procedures, namely that we do have a legislative committee dealing with account matters. Indeed, t he Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar is the chair of that committee, and the Member for Edmonton-Highlands, I believe, is a member of the committee, and that has been so since the last election in March of 2001.

I note that the time period for this particular motion for a return starts in March of 20 01, and by m y reckoning one of the years in question, the ye ar ending Ma rch 2002, would have already been before this committee for questioning. As you know, Mr. Speaker, the procedure is that the minister appears, together with the accounts for the ye ar in questi on, to answ er those que stions po sed by t he members of the c ommittee, and the Aud itor General, who has reviewed the accounts of the particular ministry, is available also to answer que stions.

The purpose of that pa rticular pr ocedure is specifically to allow members of t his As sembly to inquire into matters relative to the accounts. It seems to me that both of the hon. members opposite, perhaps in hindsight, have felt that they have not done all that they should have done in reviewing this particular minister’s accounts for that year, but the fact of the matter is that that likely is not so because I know that they are both very, very diligent. The fact is t hat t he Aud itor Ge neral has a role . The A uditor General’s role is to review accounts. The Auditor General has done that.

Th e Audi tor General has comme nted on it, and he has indicated that there is absolutely nothing untoward. As it relates to the information of the Minister of Energy and his travel, we have a procedu re in thi s House relative to international travel where press releases are set out before t he travel takes place indicating when the travel takes place, where the travel will go, who the minister will meet with, the expenses associated with that travel, who is travelling with the minister, and so on and so forth.

There is a great deal of information that is available as you go forward from day to day, from month to month, over the years. But the short of it, Mr. Speaker, is that in this particular case there is a process. There’s an Auditor General who looks into this. This Assembly has a process to look into it. Both of these hon. members have been part of that, and the time that is available to review accounts can be use d to specif ically ask ques tions of bo th the minister and the Auditor General relative to these matters. Ms Carlson: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I am very happy to particip ate in speaking to this parti cular motion a nd to respond to the Deputy Government House Leader’s participation in the r oyal runaround, which is what we’ve been getting from the government since we first started asking these questions about getting details on these particu- lar trav el expenses for the minister in question here and other ministers.

The Deputy Government House Leader talked extensively on our ability to access Public Accounts information as if at any point in my history with this Assembly that would have ever resulted in any kind of full disclosure or details. It doesn’t, Mr. Speaker, as that member very well knows. N ot only ar e details never m ade available on expense accounts, Public Accounts only has an hour a nd a half to examine all details of those particular ministries who, in fact, choose to appear before them.

Never in the history that I’ve been here have all ministries actually made it through the Public Accounts system in any given year. So some are always not available to be sc ruti- nized. In the first few years that I was here, I was on that committee. We never could get that kind of detail from the ministers. The ministers always say that this is not the most appropriate place to disclose that information; send in a written ques tion or a motion f or a return. Well, we do that, and what do we get? No information. When we ask for the information in question pe riod, w hat do we get?

Once again they say to go to Public Accounts or go to a written question or go to a motion for a return. My question is: what do they have to hide? If there’s nothing to hide here and the y’re not afraid of the public scrutiny of the se expenses, which is truly a political scrutiny that needs to take place, then why don’t they just disclose the information? The Ministe r of Interna tional and Inte rgovernmental Relations stated that perhaps we should be going to the report of the payments made to the members on the trips they’ve taken. I have before me, Mr.

Speaker , the Report of Selec ted Paym ents to Mem bers a nd Former Members of the Legislative Assembly and Persons Directly Associated with Members of the Legislative Assembly, year ended March 31, 2003. When I go to this particular Minister of Energy that we’re asking for the information for, what do I see? I see his remuneration for the year, and then, under the area that you would think we would be able to look and see the details of the expenses for all these conferences and trips and meetings that he went to out of the province, what do I see? I see travel e xpenses as a m inister of the Crown.

H is kilometre reimbursement. That c ame to $48,815. That w as for government business for the stuff that he paid for. Then I see kilometre reimbursement a s an MLA , $10,207. Then I see the subsistence allowance to cover the cost of meals while maintaining a temporary residence around session, s o once aga in not on t hese conference duties, $20,020. 3:20 So the portion of this that’s related to his travel as a minister only discloses that amount of money that he put on his credit card.

We know full well from the information that we’ve gotten around these trips that a great percentage of these monies are not paid directly by the ministers themselves. They ’re paid by aides or oth er people along on the trip. So we want a full public scrutiny, a full political review, of how much these ministers are spending on these confer- ences and these trips. I’m not saying t hat i t isn’t well spent in some cases, but let the people decide whether or not they think that these guys are ’snorfel- ling’ at the trough or whether we’re getting value for money in this province.

So it’s worth while to ask this question, and it’s politically astute for this government to provide the information, and they are once again stonewalling. The Speaker: The hon. Government House Leader. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member opposite raised a number of points which I think need a response. First of all, she indicates that not all members of the Executive Council choose to go to Public Acc ounts. Wel l, my understanding is that Public Accounts summons ministers of Executive Council and summons the ones that they want to examine.

Certainly, I know that I’ve recently had the opportu nity to have been summoned and to appe ar before Public Accounts, and I didn’t understand that I had an optio n. I understood that when Public Accounts asks a minister of Executive Council, you try and negotiate a day that makes sense, obviously, but if they want you to go, you go. The other thing that I wanted to mention that wasn’t mentioned by the members opp osite: sometimes I think me mbers of this House don’t realize that every time a document is tabled in the House, it becomes a sessional record, and then it is stored forever as a record of the session.

We’ve tabled documents in this Ho use as tho ugh they’re important documents – they may have some relevance and

Alberta Hansard March 22, 2004608 importance to the people who have written them or have sent them in or want t heir viewpoint on the record – but once they’re tabled, they get a sessional record number and they go into the archives and they’re stored forever. So the more things you ask for on the rec ord and the more documents that are tabled, the larger and larger amount of sessional records in storage, and, you know, in many cases, although, as I say, they may have been important in the conte xt in whi ch they were written, they’re not an important long-term record for the House.

Now, we have on the Order Paper today 180 motions for returns, and if all of those we re answered in the positive, there would be boxes and boxes and boxes of material that will be then num bered as sessional records and stored forever as sessi onal re cords of the House. That is not the most appropriate place for those records, Mr. Speaker. In fact, those records are in the appropriate place f or them, and that is in the hands of the financial people.

They have been reviewed and can be reviewed by the Auditor General on behalf of the public to make sure that policies have been followed and monies have been expended appropriately. But to bring in a hundred and whatever it was nu mber of ques tions aski ng for a ll the fi nancial re cords of government to be broug ht in and ma rked as sessional papers and then stored forever in the archives of the Legislature is just nonsensi- cal.

The hon. member opposite talked about the filing that was filed to date for the y ear ended March 31, 2003, a nd indicated t hat the minister in question in this particular motion f or a return had $48,800 worth of ex penses as a minis ter of the Crown: k ilometre reimbursements for use of personal vehicle for government business, vehicle rentals, airf are, accommodation, meals, tax is, parking, et cetera. So $48,800, Mr. Speaker.

I don’t have the exact number a t hand, but I thin k the rev enue from oil and gas, which comes as a result of that particular minister’s department and the policies that that particular minister has to take responsibility for and the networking with respect to energy councils and other energy producing states around the world and all of those issues, is close to $8 billion in the last year, if I recall correctly, and I stand to be corrected whether it was 7 and a half billion dollars, but in order of magnitude a phenomenal amount of revenue.

To suggest that a minister of the Crown ought not be able to spend $50,000 in travelling, or even more if there’s some that hasn’t been appropriately accounted for here because somebody else paid for it, although in my experie nce that ’s attributed to the me mber . . . That’s a rather modest amount of money for the responsibility and the income that comes to this province from oil and gas revenues. Now, Mr. Speaker, the question is real ly one of ac countability. The hon. members opposite are suggesting that members of Execu- tive Council ought to be held accountable, and that’s absolutely true.

The public is entitled to have accountability; they’re entitled to know that their money is being spent appropriately. We have policies in place to ensure that that happen s, and we have auditors in place to ensure that that happens. Now, members opposite, I thi nk – and I don’t want to attribute motives – the vas t majority of these questions seem to have come onto the Order Paper after the fed eral Auditor General discovered that a senior civil servant was spending money inappropriately.

The Auditor General, doing her job, found that there were some places where the policies were not being appropriately followed or where there were inappropriate payments and broug ht that to lig ht. Mr. Speaker, that’s precisely the way the system ought to work.

How it cannot work is for individuals to be held accountable for minute or r elatively small expenditures on a case -by-case basis because the first thing that happens when you table these expenses is that somebody is going to, as we’ve seen in this House, come back and say: on October 3 you spent $300 o n a dinner; can you tell us who was w ith you and what you were talking about? Well , Mr. Speaker, that’s an inappropriate way to have accountability because what you’re doing is suggesting that there’s a finite result from every meeting.

What y ou’re doing is suggesting that the re ought to be absolute disclosure of every single person that’s met with and every single topic that’s on the table . That c an’t happen. That would restrict the operation of government in such a manner that you would not be able to actually make good policy. Ministers of Executive Council and other members of government meet all the time with individuals. They meet within the province; they meet without the province; they go to appropriate conferences.

Sometimes you can tell in advance what results you’re going to be able to get; sometimes you go in the hopes of getting a result. But you cannot judge appropriate accountability by coming back three years later and saying: you spent $500 on a conference fee; was that an appropriate expenditure? Those are judgm ents that a re ma de in the cour se of d oing business.

Whether you are in the private sector or whether you are in government, you have to be in a position to make those judgment calls on a d ay-to-day basis as you’re doing your business and you have to be held accountable to the appropriate policy structure that’s in place and you have to be held accountable by an Auditor General reviewing the statements and saying: have you operated within the confines of policy and within the monies that have been voted to you by the Legislature to do your job?

So asking for accountability of the specifics of this nature, asking for records of food a nd accommodation and airfare to go on the records of the House for time immemorial is an inappropriate way to ask for accountability. There are, as the Mem ber for Ca lgary- Glenmore pointed out earlier, appropriate ways to do it. The hon. members opposite just haven’t found those yet. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glengarry. Mr. Bonner: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would like to make a few comments in regard to the motion for a return as brought forward by t he hon. Member for E dmonton-Gold Bar.

C ertainly, one of the tasks as opposition is accountability. It is a major task of opposition, and it is one of the things that makes democracy work. Now, we’ve heard the hon. member across the way say t hat we shouldn’t have to ha ve a bre akdown on $48, 000 for kilom etre reimbursement for use of a pe rsonal vehic le for g overnment business, vehicle rentals, airfare, accommodation, meals, taxi, and parking, et cetera while travelling on government business, that there are people that do this for us. Certainly, the Department of Energy is responsible for billions of dollars of revenue for Albertans.

But at the same time if we were to ask seniors in t his province wh o are on fixed incomes what they could do with $48,000, they would have to give you a very detailed account of all their expenditures. This is quite a bit. [interjection] That’s exactly right. Another example was the forensic audit we had on the Edmont on public school boa rd that was or dered by the minister. 3:30 If we have seniors who wish to ap ply for the Alberta seniors’ benefits, then certainly their expenditures are put forward. They are very detai led, and they are scrutinized to make certain that they qualify.

So are we doing anything out of the ordinary; for example, the audit that took place on the Edmonton public school board? No. We also have , Mr. Speak er, the audit that’s done on our seniors

March 22, 2004 Alberta Hansard 609 when they apply for the Alberta seniors’ benefits, and that certainly isn’t anywhere in the neighbourhood of $48,000. So I think that Albertans not only want to see the breakdown of these expenses; they’re entitled to it. As we go through the process in this House and as we continue, whether it be in question period or whether it be in w ritten questions or whe ther it b e in moti ons for returns, as we follow through this process, every time the question is asked, we get directed to another process as to how we can find answers to these que stions.

So, y es, this is defin itely a case of accountability here, and it is just another dodge by this government to not allow Albertans to see the breakdown of these expenses. So with those comments, I will take my seat, and I will certainly listen to the comments from other members. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar to close the debate. Mr. MacDonald: Yes. Mr. Speaker, I listened to all the speakers with a great deal of interest, and cer tainly I mu st say that I’m disappointed that Motion for a Return 3 is to be rejected.

I listened, first, with a great deal of interest, as a matter of fact, to the hon. Minister of Justice. T he minister stated t hat it’s just not possible to look at the Order Paper, to look at the motions for returns and the writte n questions tha t are on her e, that w e can’t possibly respond to all these questions, these motions because the legislative process would be overloaded with filing, that we would have official responses on each one of these requests, and that somehow there’s something detrimental if these responses were to become part of the permanent record of this Assembly.

Well, it’s only in the last month, if one were to take a quick review of Hansard, that the Minister of Finance sa id in response to a question from this hon. me mber: well, put it on t he O rder Paper; have a written ques tion. The s ame day during the same question period, on February 24, 2004, the Minister of Government Services also told this me mber to put it on the Order Paper in the form of a written question. Ther e was n o concern a bout the recor ds of the Assembly being overloaded on that day. On March 4 the Premier, in response t o a question f rom the hon.

Member f or Edmonton- Centre, said: it’s a written question. There was no concern about overloading the records of this Assembly. On March 16 the hon. minister of health made a similar statement in response t o a question f rom the hon. Member fo r Edmonton- Riverview, and just last week, on March 17, the sam e minister of health made the sam e reques t to the hon. Mem ber for Edmonton- Riverview. So to make the argument a week later that it’s going to clog up the records system of the Assembly is, to say the least, lame and does not have any merit.

Now, certainly no one on this side of the House is arguing that all government travel is bad or w rong. I w ould agree with the hon. minister of intergovernmental relations, his department, that certainly travel is important and necessary not only at the national level but at the international level, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Mason: Moose Jaw? Mr. MacDonald: No. Moose Jaw was a trip that the Minist er of Energy took. We’re not saying that all travel is bad. We want a process that is open and accountable for the expenses and what goes on on these trips and who goes.

If there is nothing untoward, as an hon. member across the way said, well, why not release all the documents? We need to know. Now, if this information is publicly available, as the hon. minister stated, where is this information? Where is it publicly available? I had a FOIP request on some other trips because not all trips are on the itinerary. Not all trips are listed there. I had a FOIP request on three trips, and I received back a request that was in the hundreds of dollars: come up with the cash; we might give you the information. That is against the spirit and the intent of the FOIP Act. Mr.

Speaker, this particular minister likes to travel more than the others, and these are trips that we know about. Certainly, the hon. Minister of Justice always seems to be at home doing his homework. Two trips are listed here. As I said earlier, I don’t know whether the hon. minister is in search of an electricity policy or what the quest is, this Holy Grail – for a good alternative to electricity deregulation he only has to go to www.liberalopposition.com to see what a real electricity policy looks like. He wouldn’t have to travel to all these foreign, exotic de stinations to find it.

H e can just click on t he Internet, and there it is. Mr. Hancock: At www.opposition.com. Mr. MacDon ald: No, you’re missing it. It’s w ww.liberal- opposition.com. You have the habit of missing that “opposition.” [interjection] No. This is a travel log. It’s not a fairy tale. Twenty- two trips is certainly not a fairy tale, to the Minister of Infrastructure. Many of these trips are over budget, and if we’re to determine how many of them are over budget, we need to have the information that is outlined in Motion for a Return 3. This is only part of the process.

You know, departmental policy seems to be to rack up air miles. The total reported cost of all of the trips that we a re aware of was supposedly $1.1 million, but the gove rnment did not publicly provide costs for 26 of th e trips, so t he actual total may be much higher than that. Whenever these itineraries are made and these press releases are pu t out on the des tination, the c ost, and w ho is going, maybe there are trips that are not officially discussed. Ms Evans: Not likely. Mr. MacDonald: Now, the hon.

Minister of Children’s Services said, “Not likely.” Well, the g overnment, our research indicates, failed to provide itineraries for 79 trips. Taxpayers have the right to know who went on those trips and how much money was spent. I’m sorry. This is incomplete. By responding to this Motion for a Return 3 the government could really be open, really be transpar- ent, and could really be accountable to the citizens, Mr. Speaker. 3:40 That pretty well concludes my statements in regard to Motion for a Return 3, but I would have to say that I’m disappointed.

There is a joke making the rounds in the coffee shop at Capilano Mall, and it goes some thing l ike t his. Ho w do yo u get eigh t Tor y cabinet ministers into a four-seater Cessna? The reply is: tell them that you’re going to open a trade mission in Mexico. That’s the public’s perception. You ca n correc t that perc eption by a greeing to this Motion for a Return 3. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. [The voice vote indicated that Motion for a Return 3 lost] [Several members rose calling for a division.

The division bell was rung at 3:41 p.m.] [Ten minutes having elapsed, the Assembly divided] For the motion: Bonner MacDonald Mason Carlson

Alberta Hansard March 22, 2004610 Against the motion: Abbott Haley Norris Ady Hancock Ouellette Amery Herard Renner Broda Horner Snelgrove Cenaiko Jablonski Stelmach Coutts Kryczka Stevens Danyluk Lord Strang DeLong Lougheed Tannas Doerksen Lukaszuk Tarchuk Dunford Lund Taylor Evans Maskell VanderBurg Forsyth McClelland Vandermeer Friedel Melchin Woloshyn Gordon Totals: For – 4 Against – 40 [Motion for a Return 3 lost] Department of Health and Wellness IT Costs M10. Mr. Bonner moved on behalf of Dr.

Taft that an order of the Assembly do is sue f or a return showing the total dollar amount spent by the Ministry of Health and Wellness on contracts for information technology services broken down by company and total dollar amount for each for the 2002- 2003 fiscal year. Mr. Bonner: Once again, Mr. Speaker, we are requesting informa- tion that deals strictly with the Ministry of Health and Wellness, and again it’s an opport unity f or Albert ans to get a de tailed look at information regarding technological services.

W e are quit e con - cerned as an o pposition with exactly how m any dollars are be ing spent in this particular area and not only how those dollars are being spent. We also are looking forward to som e answers as to which companies were used and how many dollars were used for each. Like so many other things in today’s world where we start dealing with technology, it can become a black hole.

There’s no doubt that in order to first of all introduce systems, to get them up and running, to iron out the bugs, to constantly keep updating your equipment so that you can stay abreast of the latest technology, these are extremely expensive propositions. Certainly, we have to have this information in order to compare whether or not Albertans are getting full value for the dollars being spent .

We hav e debated in t his House on numerous occasions different bills regarding health information, the collection of health information, how it is u sed, w ho it’s shared with, who it can be shared with, and cert ainly with Motion for a Return 10, by all owing us this inform ation, we will hav e the opportunity to do that type of analysis. So with those comments, I look forward to hearing debate on both sides regarding Motion for a Return 10. Thank you. The Speaker: Before I recognize the hon.

Minis ter of Innovation and Science, might we revert briefly to Introduction of Guests? [Unanimous consent granted] head: Introduction of G uests (reversion) The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Seniors. Mr. Woloshyn: Thank you very much , Mr. Speak er. I’d lik e to introduce to you and t hrough you to the Assembly two gentlemen that I had the pri vilege of me eting w ith. The f irst one is Norm Castiglione, who is the chair of the Wood Buffalo housing corpora- tion. He is accompanied by Tim Walsh, a businessman and devel- oper from Fort McMurray.

I’d ask the House to give them the usual welcome. head: Motions for Retur ns Department of Health and Wellness IT Costs (continued) Mr. Doerksen: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise on behalf of my colleague the Minister of Health and Wellness to address Motion for a Return 10. This government is open to providing information on information technology services.

In fact, the ty pe of infor mation sought in this motion for a return and in a number of other motions before the Assembly is made available annually through a document released by Alberta Finance entitled General Revenue Fund: Details of Grants, Supplies and Services, Capital Asset s and Other, by Payee. Mr.

Speaker, given the number of additional motions for returns requesting similar information from all other g overnment depart- ments, I move that Motion for a Return 10 be amended as follows and would read that an order of the Asse mbly do iss ue for a return showing the total dollar amount spent by the government of Alberta on contracts for information technology services and a listing of vendors providing these services for the 2002-2003 fiscal year.

The amended motion will provide the Assem bly with the total amount spent by all gove rnment de partments on inform ation technology services and a l ist of vendors utilized to provide these services. This amendment and its not ification have bee n provided to the hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview prior to 11 this morning as per procedures, and the amendment has been circulated already to the members of this Assembly. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The ho n. Me mber for Edmo nton-Ellerslie on the amendment. Ms Carlso n: Yes, on the am endment. Mr.

Speaker, this is an unacceptable amendment, completely unacceptable. We do not want the governm ent to provide th e information on all depa rtments lumped toget her. We want to be able to ex amine department by department the questions that are coming before the Assembly this afternoon as motions for returns. So for them to strike out “the Ministry of Health and Wellness” and substitute “government of Alberta,” first of all I thought it was a sneaky way to get around taking a look at each of the departments, but really it’s just blatant that they refuse to provide the information.

So I don’t agree with that first part, part (a). And part (b), striking out “broken down by company and total dollar amount for each” and substituting “and a listing of vendors providing these services” – well, the minister who just explained the amendment clearly told us that the listi ng of v endors is available in another document, so they’re duplicating their own services here, which is what we hear repeatedly from this gove rnment tha t they don’ t want to do. It doesn’t help Albertans to scrutinize the government activities if they don’t see a dollar amount of those monies paid out to vendors.

This government continually, on a day -to-day basis, talks about the rising costs of health care, but we have little way to determine which p