Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MAY 7, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 65

!fay 7, 1974 Tape 1544 (Afternoon) The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: f-lR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS The Ron. Minister of Education. PK - 1 HON. G. R. OTTENHEIMER (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): ~r. Speaker, I would like at this time to announce the government's policy with respect to financing school bus transportation for elementary and high school pupils for the school year commencing next September. What I would like to do is to outline first the various policies so that one can see the whole matter in something of e chronological perspective.

The first policy on school bus transportation for the province was included in the provincial government's, former of course, policy on centralized regional high schools end made known in the fall of 1953. Under that policy the province agreed to pay school boards seventy-five per cent of the cost of transporting pupils to centralized regional high schools. In 1954-1955 there were three school buses transporting 155 pupils,at a cost of $5,700, In 1954the policy was extended to include certain smell all­ grade and elementary schools.

Under this expanded policy transportation could be provided where in the opinion of the school board it rime not feasible to operate a school in e particular community end the children could be enrolled at a larger school within comnuteble distance provided an overall savings could be affected. In cases such as this the government agreed to pay ninety per cent of the cost,provided that the cost did not exceed the salary of a Grade I certified teacher. In 1956 the transportation policy for regional high schools was expanded to include central high schools, that is those with Grades VII and ''Ill es well.

In the fall of 196/'i what was known es an emergency policy of bus transportation was introduced and under those regulations any school board operating a smell school which could not obtain the services ~fa high school teacher could arrange to have the high school pupils from that school conveyed by bus toe larger school, ln such cases 5402

May 7, 1974 Tape 1544 (Afternoon) PK - 2 government paid ninety per cent of the cost. The policy of paying seventy-five per cent of the cost for transporting high school students and ninety per cent of the cost for transporting pupils under the emergency plan continued until 1971 when· regulations were amended to make provision for paying ninety per cent of the cost of transportation of all pupils.

Later in the same year,1971, the year of no little importance in the history of the province, later in that year the policy was further amended whereby government agreed to pay one hundred per cent of the cost, the former government, the cost of transporting all pupils who live more than one mile from the school which they attended . In 1972 the regulations governing school bus transportation were again changed and the policy whereby government paid a per capita amount for each pupil requiring bus transportation to and from school was implemented.

The per capita grant depended upon the number of miles travelled and whether the road was paved or unpaved. I 'Wlluld like to point out some of the financial implications which have resulted from the various changes in our school bus transportation policies over the last four or five years. In 1969-1970, government were paying seventy-five per cent of the cost of transporting high school students and ninety per cent of the cost of transporting elementary and/or high school students in what was considered emergency situations.

During that school year,1969-1970, there were 671 school buses operating, at a cost of $3.1 million. This represented an average of $4,600 per contract. In 1970-1971, with the new policy of paying ninety per cent ·of the cost for all pupils being transported,the number of buses increased by ten,to 681,and the cost for that year rose to $4.3 million, which was an increase of over · $1.25 million from the previous year. The average cost rose to $6,400.

In 1971-1972 the number of buses increased to 839, 158 more than the previous year, the school year 1971 - 1972, while the cost increase by $1.5 million to $5.8 million. It will be noted that this was the year in which government agreed to pay one hundred per cent of 5403

May 7, 1974 Tape 1544 (Afternoon) PK - 3 the cost of school bus transportation. The result there is obvious , 158 more buses. In 1972-1973 the number of buses showed a slight increase,from 839 to 850, while the cost increase by a little over a half million dollars to $6.4 million. For the year 1973-1974 there was again a slight increase in the number of buses , from 850 to 870,and close to three-quarters of a million dollars increase in cost, bringing it to approximately S7.1 mjllion.

It appears to be obvious from the statistical data available that any policy that lends itself to having one hundred per cent of the cost of transportation of punils being paid by government creates an escalation in cost that is very difficult if not impossible to control. The fact that from 1969 to 1970 and from 1973 to 1974, the number of school buses have icreased by approximately 200 or thirty-three and a- half per cent does indicate that. Of this increase the greatest amount occurred between 1970 and 1972 --the increase was over $1.5 million. Mr.

Speaker, the matter of school bus transportation has been under study by officials of the Drpartment of Education for some time now and every effort has been made to development a policy that is both equitable and just to all school hoards in the province. We have found in the past that while the nolicy of a per capita grant to school boards for pupils actually being transported to schools is quite satisfactory to a number of school boards, it is not satisfactory to others.

Rut studies undertaken by the Department of Education indicate two factors: (1) a system of financing school bus transportation through a per capita allotment for each student depending upon the distance covered and whether the road is paved or unpaved leads to certain unavoidable inequities. Road conditions are to diverse in the province for this system to function properly.

(2) It is obvious that there is an enormous escalation in cost when the school bus transportation bill is paid directly by government. For example, in 1970-1971,when the former administration was cost-sharing school bus transportation on a ninety/ten basis, ter additional buses were added to the system. I 5404

May 7, lCl74 Tape 1544 (Afternoon) PK - 4 should point out that I am not here speaking of new buses to replace old ones but additional bus units. Now in 1970-1971, there were ten additional units. In 1971-1972, when the former administration assumed one hundred per cent responsibility,an additional 158 units were added. In the last two years an additional thirty-one were added. It is obvious that only by keeping a certain amount of local fiscal responsibility in the area of school bus transportation can costs be reasonably controlled.

I am pleased to announce government's policy on school bus transportation which will become operative next September. Government will assume ninety-five per cent of the cost of school bus transportation leaving five per cent of it to local school boards. This new policy will provide a certain local financial responsibility which will act as a control factor and at the same time be equitable and just to the school boards of the province. MR. F. B. ROWE: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROWE, F. B. Mr. Speaker, the minister's statement . is a disappointment. Disgraceful!

We have been standing here for two years pointing out the inequities of the disaster plan that the former Minister of Education brought into this Housf' in the very first year,as Minister of Education, a plan that was inequitable from one region of the province or one school hoard to another school board. They did not take the weather conditions into consideration. The distribution of the population of the students in various communities along a highway system or local road system was n.ot taken into consideration, only whether or not there was pavement or dirt road. Many factors, Mr.

Speaker, were not taken into consideration with respect to the formulation of a school bus transportation policy. The policies announced since this administration have come into power with regards to school bus transportation have been regressive, have been a disappointment and have costs school boards in this province thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars and it sujected the students of our province to hazardous and dangerous conditions getting back and forth to school. 5405

May 7, 1974 Tape 1544 (Aftenioon) PK - 5 Mr. Speaker, my own feeling and I am sure it is the feeling of my own colleagues,although we obviously have not had time to discuss the minister's statement, is that the only fair way, the only equitable school bus transportation system was that which existed during the previous administration. That is that the school boards_ surely God! Mr. Speaker, the school boards of this province can be trusted to call tenders for the operation of school buses. There might - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. RO'WE, F. B. Okay.

The honourable member for Bonavist~ South,who is not in his seat again, Mr. Speaker. and should not open his yap at all said something about the tenders go to the school board employees or their own employees. AN HON. MEMBER: ml. ROWE, F. B. Inaudible. I hope it is recorded, Mr. Speaker, that that comment came from the other side and in the public halls of this House of Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There are a couple of things that seem to be going a bit astray. One is that the honourable Member for Bonavista South is not in his place. He is not permitted to inter1ect.

Two, the courtesy of replies to a ministerial statement is a courtesy that is extended by the Chair. The speaket in this case is the honourable Member for St. Barbe North. He should really confine his statements to remarks on the question of clarification of the statement made by the ~inister of Education. 'MR. ROWE, F. B. If there have been abuses, Mr. Speaker, of the school bus transportation formula,as indicated by the honourable Member for Bonavista South, I suggest that the government could quite easily modify the regulations in such a way that this abuse would not exist.

I would simply say in finishing off my few brief rwark~,and I will certainly have more comments to make on it later, that surely heavens the school boards of this province can be trusted to call tenders for the operation of school buses! They realize that one hundred per cent of the cost of operating these school buses should be paid by the provincial government because even under this formula I would 5406

"'ay 7, 1974 Tape 1544 (Afternoon) PK - 6 suggest that there would be inequities from one region of the province to the other, from one school board area to another because all of these factors that I mentioned earlier; weather conditions, distribution and dispersal of population have not been taken into consideration. Mr. Speaker, we continue to have an increase in the cost of operating school buses and I note, Mr. Speaker, that in the estimates for school bus operation for this year, last year it was $7,140,000 and this year it is planning to be $7,797,000.

So it is not a dramatic increase in the vote for school bus transportation. Sir, in closing,! find the ministerial statement with respect to school bus transportation a little hint that the honourable members on the other side are beginning to learn a little bit of what we have been saying for two years,but the statement itself is a very sad disappointment. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Labrador South. MR. M. JlfARTIN: Mr. Speaker, by your leave I would like to ask three questions for clarification by the minister. The first one, is the matter of

interpretation: Does the term school bus cover all vehicles or all vessels of conveyance used in the transportation of schoolchildren? I raise this because in one area of my district they are using boats in the sUT11111ertimP and snowmobiles in the wintertime. Secondly, is the minister satisfied that the safety standards are being maintained? There is ouite a controversy across the nation now regarding safety standards of school buses.

Thirdly, does the minister really know where the other five per cent that is suppose to be stood by the individual school boards comes from1 Is it a fact that the government are naying the full one hundred per cent anyway? And if th:ls be the case, has the minister looked at the pros and cons of owni~g and operating the school bus fleet entirely1 Whether or not there is any indication that that would he more to tbe advantage of the public than calling tenders from private individuals? 'MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable minister wish to answer those questions now or wait ~til the question period? 5407

May 7, 1974 Tape 1544 (Afternoon) PK - 7 MR. OTTENHEIME'R: I would like to answer them now, Mr. Speaker. Yes, the ter111 school bus ,•ould include any vehicle approved for the transportation of schoolchildren. It may not, you know, in all cases be necessary that what one is looking at would be called a bus. The safety standards.: To the best of my knowledge there are four particular checks per year required hy law to the vehicles and to the drivers. These are stringently enforced,without exception. The third I think,if I caught the question correctly was where the other five per cent would be coming from .

Obviously it would have to come from school boards' revenues whether it would be from assessments or taxes. I think that it was a question,! sort of understood also as part of a question. I am not sure whether it was that government had investigated a possibility of assuming one hundred per cent or operating our own buses, the government operating :l!:s own buses. Actually with both of them, You know, with the one hundred per cent we did obviously look at it.

It was in operation not during the whole last administration, it was in operation about five or six 1110nths of the last administration, and the cost escalated tremendously because I believe there was no local fiscal responsibility. From the point of view of the government running its own buses, I am inclined to think, you know, from the point of view of the safety factor and from every other point of view that when they are run by school boards , which are there on the spot in the area,rather than having this service which goes on in hundreds of communities, you know, run directly by a bureaucracy in St.

John's,! think that there is much better control when it is done in the area because it would be practically impossible for persons hundreds of miles away to be familiar with every and all local conditions as they change. MR. SPEAKER: It has been brought to my attention that we have thirteen students from the College of Trades and Technology with their teacher~ Mrs. Knight. I would like to welcome these persons to the galleries today and trust that their visit here is most interesting. 5408

May 7, 1974 Tape 1544 (Afternoon) PK - 8 PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for White Bay North. HON. E. M. ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition from Great Harbour Deep,in my District of White Bay North. May I say, Mr. Speaker, that in my years as a member of this House I have seen, as of all honourable members, a great nmnber of petitions but I have never seen one that is better prepared, that is better argued or,in my view, more justified. The prayer of the petition, Sir, is quite lengthy.

It covers three typewritten pages but it is quite succinctly summed u~ in the closing paragraphs, if I might read them, Sir, they go, "Whereas the building of a highway across the Northern Peninsula to our Colll!llllnity of.

Great Harbour Deep would create employment for the whole peninsula, would solve our problem of isolation and could lead to resource development with long term benefits; "Be It Resolved that we the citizens of Great Harbour Deep draw up a petition to Her Majesty's Government of Canada, to Her Majesty's Government of Newfoundland with a prayer that they work jointly in providing this Community of Great Harbour Deep with a road to the main provincial hi~hways and with a view to establishing resource· development with long-term benefits.

"We the undersigned citizens of the Community of Great Harbour Deep, in the Province of Newfoundland and in the Dominion of Canada, hmnbly pray that Her Majesty's Government of Canada and Her Majesty's Government of Newfoundland hear our resolution and take .1oint actions to have a highway built across the Norther Peninsula of Newfoundland to connection our community with the Northern Peninsula Highway.

We also pray that these governments take appropriate joint actions to develop the various potentials of this area." They go on, Sir, Your Honour I know will appreciate this: "We pray for Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and for all Her ministers and legislators. As Her Majesty's humble servants it is our bounded duty that we shall forever pray." 5409

May 7, 1974 Tape 1544 (Afternoon) PK - 9 I would think that is one of the few times in history, Sir, that a petition has been in the correct and proper form as laid down in our rules. The petition, Sir, is signed by every adult citizen of Harbour neep, approximately 190 persons. Everyone,as far as I can determine by checking it against the voters list from the community,has signed the petition. It is supported, ~r. Speaker, by 894 names on these forms, 894 names signed bypersonsas far away as Toronto and St.

John's and from Corner Brook, and all the communities along the Great Northern Peninsula and supported as well by resolutions from the Roddickton Town Council, the Community of Belburns, the Town Council of Englee, the Local Improvement District of Flower's Covemd the Local Improvement District of Daniels Harbour. The signatories to the petition and the supporting signatories,Sir, are most interesting. I will name only one, as it is the first time I think that I have ever seen this gentleman's name appended to a petition.

The signature on this petition is the Right Reverend Gordon Legge, the Bishop Surrogate of Newfoundland. Bishop Legge, the Surrogate Bishop, the Anglican Surrogate Bishop,has signed the petition and a great number of other residents and citizens of Western and Northern Newfoundland have signed it. Now, Sir, I support the petition wholeheartedly, 5410

May 7, 1974 Tape No. 1545 NM - 1 Harbour Deep is a co111111unity of about 400 persons. It is very prosperous, self supporting and a very fine community.

Harbour Deep also, Sir, has access.or a road to Harbour Deep would give access to two y.reat resources, The timber of the ~ooney Block would be accessible by means of a road froD) Port Saunders, River of Ponds Area comin~ across the peninsula, I believe the Minister of Forestry has made some investigations of that and indeed the Task Force on Forestry Report recommends the Harbour Deep Area as the potential site, one of seven potential sites for the development of a fairly large sawmill, about five million board feet a year. tn addition, Sir, a road to Farbour Deep would provide access to the watershed of _the great Cat Arm Jiver which is one of the last hydro electric potentials undeveloped on the island.

I understand that possibly a hundred thousand or more horse power of hydro electric power could be generated at a not unreasonable cost on the great Cat Arm River. So for t~ese reasons, Sir, I support the petition. I would hope that the prayer of it would be considered most se.riously and would be granted. I realize the Mooney Block is privately held land. It is owned by the Price Newfoundland Company. It is a classic example of why we need a new forest policy in this province because as I said in the House many times, it has never been logged to any extent at all.

I will wager, Sir, that not 50,000 cords of wood has been taken off the Mooney Block in the forty years that Price have owned it. It badly needs to be developed; it has much over-mature timber. A road, Sir, would provide that development and would provide 400 Newfoundlander8 with access to the main highwav network. 1 would think in closing, Mr.

Speaker, that aside from the Community of Burgeo and - the Community of Ramea, the Community of Harbour Deep is probably the largest single community left on this island,and the Community of Ramea will never have a road, Burgeo is ~etting one now, the Community of Harbour Deep is the largest single community left on this island without any access to roads. I think, Sir, they 5411

May 7, 1974 Tape No. 1545 NM - 2 have a ~ood case. I think the petition states it well. I hope it will be granted and I urge the government to give it every consideration in the hot>e that we will see a start this year on a woods access road into the Northern Peninsula timber ancl across to Harbour Deep and that that road will continue until the people of Harbour Deep do have access to the highway network. I present the petition, Sir, and would ask that it be given the utmost of consideration. 1'!R. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Twillingate. MR. GILLETT: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition from the residents of New World Island West. Now this includes Bridgeport, Morton's Harbour, Whale's Gulch and it also goes down to Tizzard 's Harbour which I do not think is actually considered New World Island West. But the prayer of the petition is that the road from the pavement in Virgin Arm to the junction of Morton's Harbour Road, a distance of some six miles,be rebuilt and paved. Now this road,

whereas it does connect all of the western part of New World Island, it is also the road by which you get to Tizzard's Harbour, although Tizzard's Harbour is as I say not on the western part but perhaps on the eastern or souteastern part. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that a survey had been completed lonp ago and that the Department of Transportations and Communications have from year to year hoped for funds to reconstruct or build actually, to build a new,straighter road taking in naturally some parts of the older road, but to build a new road from Virgin Arm to this junction of Morton's Harbour.

Now this petition is signed by I would Buess around 800. I went down through three pages and I got well up to 400, so I am very certain that we can double that, I would say about 800 residents of the entire area. ~r. Speaker, I can only add to the prayer of this petition once a~ain the necessity of the road from Virgin Arm to Morton's Barbour. I have mentioned this if not three times at least twice in this honourable House and I trust ~r. Speaker, that the department to which this petition 5412

May 7, 1974 Tape No. 1545 NM - 3 relates will ~ive it not only serious consideration but will carry out the prayer of this petition in this year, Mr. Speaker. MR. SENIOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the majority of the residents of the Town of Badger. This petition was presented to me last week during a public meeting in Badger when severa] matters pertaininp: to the school system and the school bus transportation system were being discussed.

We were able to resolve the situation regarding the school bus transportation, at least for the time being hut there was another matter which was brought to my attention very forcibly which concerns the school system that exists at Badger at the present time and also the fact that all students, grades seven to eleven inclusive, are. bussed to r.rand Falls.

This netition, Sir, was circulated in the Town of Badger by the Badger Tovm Council and some of the background is that we have three different jurisdictions in this area, or schools operated under three different jurisdictions, the Pentecostal Board, the Integrated Board and the Roman Catholtc Board of Education. The three school boards informed t'fie counci]. back i.n 1972, that alJ the students in lladp:er from r-rade VII to XI, would be bussed to schools in r.rand Falls - Windsor Area and these students would he housed in different schools.

They must leave ~o"'e a.t 8:no in the morning and return at annroxirnately 5:rin ".'-!. Travellinp: to and from .school prevents children from participating sufficiently in recreation facil:lties both in school and at home. The council also believes, and this was brought forward at the meeting, that for the physical vel 1 heinp., the emotional well beinp and so on of the children this is not in their best interests, the present system which they have theredoes not protect their -phsycial and emotional well being, quite a few children are upset.

So the prayer of the petition was to have a one-echool system for the Tm-m of Badger. Nnw, S1r, I realize we are p:ettinp, into a very delicate area and I am sure an area which has been discussed many times before in :,ewfounrllanr.l hecause of the type of school sys tern that we have. But it was the consensus of opinion of the people at the public meeting and indeed 5413

"av 7, l'l74 Tane ~!o. 15li5 NY: - 4 by the nuJT1her of peonle who have si1med this petition.and they were p.ivf'n three alternativP.s when they sipned the petition by way of expression of their opinion and the majority of them expressed the opinion that there should be one school system in the Town of Badger.

Sir, I do not know if this means that they want a public schocl system for the Town of Badger or whether there is some way that the three hoards of education can get torether in some way ~o provide a single school system for the Town of Badper,but they are desirous of co-onerat1np in every way possi.ble to see that the students that are nresently hussed froT'l Badger to Grand Falls remain in Badper. The reasons for these, some T have outlined already, some of the reasons are the population of Badger is somewhere in the vicinity of 1700 . neonle which 1s a fair size community.

The distance travelling is approximately twenty miles 0ne way and they feel that a community of this size which has several new schools already constructed, which has the facilities there, should be able to retain their students in that particular community. So they have asked me to present this petition to the House of Assembly.

Maybe it should more nroperly be presented to the school boards affected but I have done what they have asked me to do and I ask the Denartmentof ~ducation to take this matter under serious consideration because the people there are verv seriously concerned about it and they are now at the point where they are prep.ered to demand that a comprehensive study be done of the situation, that they be given what they consider is their rip.ht in a coT'lmunity of this size, to have a proper school system operated there even if it means just having a single school system.

Sir, I would like to table this net1 tion and refer it to the nenartment of Education and request that they take whatever action is deemed apnropriate. ~~~PEAK~: The honourable Minister of Education. MR. OT..!_ENHEIME!_: Mr. Speaker, I will certainly be pleased,when the petition in a couple of days is referred to the department,to synopsize the prayer 5414

May 7, 1974 Tape No. 1545 NM - 5 of it and of course to make copies of it available to the school boards concerned with educational facilities in Badger. NOTICE OF MOTIONS: ~- SPF.AKER: The honourable ~inister of Justice. MR. HICK'fAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills, a b:111, "An Act To Amend, Revise and Consolidate The Law Respecting The St. John'G Memorial Stadium, 11 a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Agreements Ratified By The Avalon Telephone Company Act. 1"38." ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bonavista North. MR.

THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. In view of the fact that some of our dairy oroducers in the province apparently have serious financial problems, has the minister or any of his officials in the department spoken with representatives of the dairy industry. If they have, what action does his department or the government plan on taking to allieviate this situation1 _!:fR. ~PEAK!_R: The honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we had talks with the dairy industry in the province and we are trying our best to come up with some solutions to their problems but I cannot say that we have come up with any definite answers as yet. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. ~- NF.ARY: Mr ." Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture if he would give us a report on an incident that took place in Gander I think it was yesterday or over the weekend involving a couple of moose that were hanging around Gander Airoort and were chased with a helicopter for five hours until the cow moose,in calf.died of exhaustion. ~- WM. ROHE: The bull moose. MR. NEARY: The bull moose died. I thought it was the cow moose. MR. MAYNARD: I do not know if the Minister of Tourism.who is in charge

May 7, 1974 Tape No. 1545 N"I - 6 of wild life,would be familiar with it. ~._NEARY: I put the question to the wrong minister. I put the question to the Minister of Tourism. Would the minister care to give us a report of that incident there in Gander that is widely publicized7 MR. OOYLE: ~1r. Speaker, I have a report which I just received about a half an hour ago on the incident,as follows: On Sunday, Mav 5, Mr. Forsey, our biologist, received a call from the Ministry of Transport,about 9:00 A.~., concerning the fact that two moose were loose on the tarmac in Gander.

Before leaving Glenwood for Gander, he lives in Glenwood, he arranged to have a helicopter waiting for him there in Gander. On arrival in Gander,about 9:30 A.~. Sunday, the helicopter was already air borne, attempting to drive the moose from the runway area. The method was used to remove moose from this area in the past. About 11:00 A.M. the helicopter returned,not being successful in getting the animals out. Mr. Forsey, together with Warden Bert, then prepared to tranquilize the animals . A subsequent flight failed to produce results.

They could not chase the animals out nor could they get a good shot with the drug. These operations stopped about noon on Sunday. About 2: 00 P.M. the same gentleman in another helicopter tried shooting the drugged needles once aga1n. This time both animals were hit and immobilized. The female was removed but the male died within minutes of being drupged. The male could have died from an overdose of the drug or from the combined effects of an overdose plus the earlier harrassment. The animals had to be removed because of the threat they posed to aircraft landing and taking off in Gander.

This problem will occur again ns the entire area around the runway in question is not yet fenced and until it is fenced,I understand it is in the course of being fenced, it is obvious that it 1 s p,oing to hap-pen again as it has happened before. That is the extent, Mr. Speaker, of the report I have as of a half an hour ago. MR. NF.ARY: ~r. Sneaker, my understanding was that the helicopter chased these moose for five hours. The helicopter was air-borne• The minister says no. Would th~ minister indicate if it is possible to get these moose off 5416

May 7, 1974 Tape No. 1545 NM - 7 the runway with a pickup or some other form of vehicle instead of chasin~ them with a helicopter? MR. SPEAKER~ Order please! I think perhaps the Chair was a little lax in the first olace in allowing the question. I do not think it is the puroose of the oral question period to let that p'.lrticula .r question indeed demand an urgent answer. The question perhaps was out of order in the first place. If the honourable minister wishes, I shall permit him to answer a supplementary. ':9t. DOYLE: ~r. Speaker, I would just like to make one comment.

I first heard this on C.J.O.N. vesterday at l:lSp.m. I heard the same comment, that the helicopter had been chasing the animals for five hours. This is what got me upset in the first place as well. We have had it check~d out thoroughly and our information is, and this is supported by the R.C.M.P. in Gander, that the helicopter was air-borne no more than an hour and a half to two hours. That was the first time. The second time it was air borne for the purpose of trying to get a shot,with the tranouilizer gun,at the animals. Apparently there is no other way they can get them.

They have tried over the years various methods to ~et them off the tarmac and thev have not been successful. As T. say, until th_e full runway is fenced, which we are told will be this summer, there is just no way to keep the animals from roaming on the tarmac. "R. NEARY: !-1r. Speaker, I have a question concerning a different kind of wildlife in the minister's department. Would the minister care to inform the House, confinn or deny whether a professional was brought in from Las 1.'<'pas to assist in the Silver Anniversary pageant held out :In Corner Brook over the weekend? !'P .

Sl'E/1.KER: Tha t question can be plac er:1 011 t ile Order r>arer. '·!1'. :IF.t\T\Y: ''r. Speaker, I would like to know what kind of professional it was. What kind of a professfonal this . lady was and how much it cost. ' !R. SPEAKCR: Order please! Order Please! That question can be placed on the Order Paner. The honourable member for Labrador South. :1!.:.... '-l,'-.11Tl ~:_ 'fr. Speaker, I have a question for the honourable 5417

"lay 7, l'l74 Tape No. 1545 NM - 8 "inister of .Tu'ltice. I wonder if he can pi11e us any indication as to ho•~ close we are to ~ettin? the Report of the La1'rador !loyal CoMm1ssion. ~m.2PEAKE~: The honourable Minister of Justice. ''R. PICKY:_A~ 'fr. Speaker, al 1 I can say is reasonal-ly close. That pr~cis has not yet been completed but every time T inquire it is almost finished. I would hone certainly within the next few days. '1R. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: ?-rr. Speaker, a question for the 'finis ter of Manpower and Industrial Ttelations.

Sir, would the T'linister indicate if t-he International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers in Churchill Falls have asked for a meetinp. with the minister or with the government to discuss the matter of the ratio of supervisors from the Mainland as comnared to Newfoundland heinp. completely out of line and what other nrohlems they want to discuss with the minister? ~l_ll •• ~P.ffKF.R: The honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. "1R. lWUSSEAU: T have received a request from the IBEW in Churchill "Falls to meet with me, T presume in my capacity as "I.H.A.

So if the member shon ld think it is in my capacity as minister then he knows more about it than I do. But certa1nly we are going to meet sometime durinp. the third week of 'fay ,.,hen they come down to discuss any problems that they have at that time, ~robably in relationship to the change in life style or any contemplated changes in respect to government's undertakings on the Lower Churchill and the Unper Churchill. So we will be meeting sometime during the third week of May. ~~--~_R_:."_:_ fir.

Speaker ,supplementary: Would this meeting have anythin,,- to clo then with problems that have arisen as a result of the l!OVernment take over of BP.INC/! or the Upper Churchill? MR. ROUSSEAU: No. There are no oroblems. But anyway, any problems that they have to bring down,as they are ~oing to meet us and whatever ministers or other people who are involved certainly will be most pleased to meet with them as we are most pleased to meet with anybody who wants to meet with us. '·!R. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador North. 5418

1-lay 7, 1974 Tape No. 1545 NM - 9 "lR: WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Finance, to ask 5419

May 7, 1974. Tape 1546 (Afternoon) RH - 1 if the minister can tell the House if the Labrador Linerboard have arranged their shipping for wood from Goose Bay to Stephenville for this season. I understand now in Goose Bay (I have been told by reliable officials in Labrador Linerboard.) that the shipment of wood will be delayed hecause they have not been able to get ships to start at the beginning of the season. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. MR. J.C. CROSBIE: I am glad the honourable gentleman reminded me, Mr. Speaker, that we need ships this swnmer. We arF going to have ships.

I am glad the honourable gentleman reminded me. Anyway I will set his mind at rest. There are chartered parties entered into for two vessels from Jebsens. There are two vessels and they are suppose to come on charter on June 15. AN l_!ONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Well, these chartered parties were ente.red into months ago and the date in the charter parties is June 15. As they have in every charter party they have so many days each side of that date that they can come on charter. So they should certainly be t ·here at least a month earlier than last year. We only hope the ice ~111 be gone by June 15.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minis_ter of Education, regarding the ministerial statements. The minister has indicated to me that he will get the formula for last year but he announced that the government will assume ninety-five per cent of the cost of school bus transportation. Now could the minister indicate how the cost of school bus transportation for certain school districts is going to be worked out, how the basic cost is going to be figured out, how is that ninety-five per cent going to be? What is it based on?

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of ,Education. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, it will be based upon the total school trans- portation bill for all school transportation as authorized by the act and by regulations. So the total school transportation bill, ninety-five per 5420

May 7, 1974 Tape 1546 (Afternoon) RR-2 cent of it will be payed to the school boards by the government. MR F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Is the cost still figured out on a per capita basis, a student per capita basis? MR O'l'TENHEIMER: No, on an aggregate basis , the total. The school boards a~e obliged to tender. Of course they were obliged to tender before. School boards are obliged to tender. They are obliged by law to award to the lowest tender. They cannot award to any but the lowest tender without the permission of the minister.

The only reason it has ever been operative is when there is reasonable proof that any but the lowest tender can provide a safe or reasonable service. So it is on the aggregate, but they must . tender. MR F. ROWE: A supplementary question: What happens if the total amount of the bids is in excess of $7,7q7,OOO? Will money be made available in that case? MR OTTENHEIMER: Mr .• Speaker, of course this is an estimate. Obviously if the costs authorized within the law, within the policy and programme, are in excess of that, then obviously they are covered.

These are, as the honourable gentleman knows, only estimates of what this service will cost during the next year. 'MR SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister o( / I Education: Will he indicate whether any of the ground rules have changed? For instance, will the mileage still apply in terms of minimum distance from school? MR O'l'TENHEIMER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the mileage, that is the same. What has changed is the formula for cost-sharing. The regulations with respect to a mile will remain.

If that were changed to half a mile, three-quarters of a mile, whatever it was, obviously there would always be those who would want it ever closer and closer. 6nce we make any significant change there at all the costs would escalate tremendously and it could easily double, Perhaps triple but easily double the cost. What is affected is the policy for cost-sharing, the policy for paying but not the distance at which a person lives in order to get bus transportation. 5421

May 7, 1Q74 Tape 1546 (Afternoon) RH-3 MR Sil1MONS: Another question to the Minister of Education: Mr. Speaker, in view of his ministerial statement and in particular the part which glorifies the importance of local financial involvement, am I correct in interpreting and deducing that the minister is against the government assuming the full fiscal responsibility for education at the elementary and secondary level? ~ OTTENREIMER: Mr. Speaker, I do not see it as such.

The government's policy, which obviously I share as a member of the government and as Minister of Education, is that we assume ninety-five per cent of the costs and that five per cent remains a local responsibility. I should point out that it was only a six months period when it was ever any other way. It was seventy-five and twenty-five for a while and ninety and ten for a while. It was one hundred per cent only for a very short while in late 1971.

I would think that when - well, it is not that I would think - I mean the data that we have indicates that were there is no local financial responsi­ bility then there is very little control on costs. The data that we have on costs during that period when there was one hundred percent assumption of costs, shows it got completely out of line. I would suggest that if we were to implement one hundred per cent policy the difference to the public treasury would not be the five per cent but the difference could well be very much more. MR SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, the minister is saying that there are not adequate controls, in his opinion, at the school board level to insure that the money will be spent wisely. Is that what he is saying when he says that the difference would be more than five per cent if the government were to undertake one hundred per cent of the cost? Am I right? MR OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, the school boards, of course, can only deal with the tenders that they get; they do not tender themselves but they receive the tenders from those who do.

I mean, it is human nature; if a final and total bill is to be paid directly by the government, very often we find then, indeed the datawe have for the free period in which it was in operation indicated no control or insufficient control on costs. This is based on data that we have for that one brief period when there was one hundred per cent ·payment directly by government. 5422

May 7, 1974. Tape 1546 (Afternoon) RH - 4 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for White Bay South. MR. W. ROWE: A supplementary as well, Sir, and it is an important subject stemming from the minister's statement.

Can the minister tell the House how it can possibly happen that if school boards are required to accept low tenders in the competitive way, presumeably there is comnetition. presumeably he is not making any allegations of collusion among tenderers or school boards and tenderers, if school boards have to accept the lowest tender then how can it possibly make any difference whether the government pays ninety-five per cent or one hundred per cent? How can that in any way be a control on the expenditure on school bus transportation?

Unless the minister, Sir, is stating further that there is some kind of either extreme negligence or collusion or some shady dealing of some sort. If the minister has data to .that effect, would he give it to the House or explain it to the House? MR. OTTENI-IEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I cannot explain during the one instance when there was one hundred per cent assumption of expenses by government, why there was inordinate escalation in costs. All I can report is the fact; the reason I do not know. Of course. there are areas where there is very little and perhaps some where there is no competition.

There are areas where school ooards call for tenders and only receiye one reply. That does hanoen as well. There are areas where there is very little comoe,tition in that there u1ight be two. There are areas in which there is no competition. Why the costs escalated during that brief period of one hundred Per cent I cannot say. All I can do is report that they did in fact. MR. W. ROWE: Is the minister then saying.

Sir. that based on a six month period. no more, a six month period, that he is drawing a conclusion that it was because it was one hundred per cent, because of the fact that one hundred per cent of the cost of the school bus transportation was assumed by the government that the costs escalated? Is this the only reasonable conclusion that one can come to? To me, Sir, if I may be permitted to make a statement, 5423

May 7, 1974. Tape 1546 (Afternoon) RH - S it seems to be an unwarranted conclusion based on such scimpy data. Can the minister comment on that. MR. OTTENHEIMF:R: Actually that one hundred per cent policy that I said was in operation six months, it was in operation for six months in the sense that about six months after it was announced another one was announced but it was in fact in operation for one school year. That par­ ticular school year is quite comparable with any other school year.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that there was anything unique about it or any reason whatsoever that it is not comparable with, let us say, two or three years previous to it or the two or three years after it . . Based upon that data, for example, as I said,in l97n-71,under a ninety/ten split there were ten additional bus units. During the past two years there were thirty-one bus units. So we are talking about the two years after and the one year before. During that particular year there were 158 additional bus units.

We are comparing that period with the ones immediately before and the ones itnJT1ediately after. Those are the facts. ~- W. ROWE: If I may, Sir, ask another supplementary on it.

Well is it not possible _ I would like the minister I s cmmnent on this_ that there were boards who could not afford earlier the ten per cent or the twenty-five per cent or whatever was the amount to be paid locally who when the government took over one hundred per cent of the financing then found it possible to open up new routes or to take on additional services, adequate services and therefore provide a half decent service to the school children? I mean is that not another warranted conclusion or deduction to be drawn from the fact that there was an increase in school bus transportation costs? MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Sreaker, the data that we have would indicate that all who were within the regulations entitled to a school bus transportation the year or two before and the couple of years after.did in fact have it. Taking a year or two period before this hundred per cent and the period of huge escalation in costs and the two years illlllediately after it,there ts no indication that either previously or subsequently those who were 5424

May 7. 1974. Tape 1546 (Afternoon) RH - 6 entitled to school bus transportation were not in fact transported. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, if I am hearing the minister correctly, I think he ought to elaborate because that is a very serious charge. What I hear him saying and I would like for him to correct me on this if I am wrong,but what I hear him say is that in the last yea~, the ninety ner cent, according to his data, those routes which were warranted at that time were all ready operative, were all ready into effect and then suddenly there is fifty-eight new routes.

Is he saying that there was something impro-per p;oing on, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable member is proceeding to make a speech. In essence he rose to ask a supplementary question. There has been a considerable number of supplementary questions asked on this issue and a number asked after the minister had made his statement. If the minister wishes to reply to this question I shall permit him but I think we should p;et on with the other questions if there are any for the balance of the question period which is only some six or seven minutes.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Does the minister want to answer it? MR. OTTENHEIMER: The question essentially was I think or the

part I heard .. was I am making a charge. I am making no charge. I am just gi~ng statistical or factual data which I have. A-~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIMER: There were new bus units. They may not have all been. some of them presumable were new routes, some of them were using more buses for the same routes. There were all kinds of possibilities. There were 158 new bus units. It does not mean that they were all necessarily new routes. It could have been where there was a route with one bus,there isnow a route with two buses. There are all kinds of possibilities.

If there are further questions for statistical information on this.I think I would suggest that honourable members give notice because obviously I do not carry all of these statistics around in my head. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Rell Island. .MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Forestry and 5425

May 7, 1974. Tape 1546 (Afternoon) RH - 7 Agriculture could indicate to the House whether or not there is any crown land available on the Gander River for summer cabins? A.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. HON. E. MAYNARD: I do not think it is a very urgent question, Mr. Speaker. I am sure if the honourable gentlenan should go down to the Crown Lands Division he could look at the maps and find it out. I certainly do not have them here with me. MR. NF.ARY: Would the minister undertake to get me the information or is the land .1ust for a select few? MR.SPEAERK: Order, please! MR. E. MAYNARD: Make an anplication. MR.

NEARY: f.lr. S1Jeaker, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing undertook a few days ago to get me some information concerning contracts that had been let down at the Tndustrial Park. Has the minister got that information for me yet? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. ll.R.V. EARLE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to be able to inform the honourable member for Bell Island that all tenders called for work by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housinr Corporation are called under tender which are as usual with our department freely open , for those who tender to come in and see the bids when they are opened. All work done has been tendered and the tender is awarded to the lowest bidder. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is not the answer to the question I asked. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I asked the minister to give me a list of all of the tender calls and the contracts that had been awarded to work on the Industrial Park. The minister undertook three or four - Ah! I know why the minister does not want me to get the information. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: The trucking down there might be embarrassing. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: The Crosbies got her sewed up down there. 5426

May 7, 1974. Tape 1546 (Afternoon) RH - 8 -AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: The Crosbies got her sewed up a11;ain. Would the minister - Order, please! I will ask the honourable member for Bell Tsland to take his seat. On three or four occasions I called for order and the honourable member for Bell Island insisted on continuinp his speech. Tam sure he is aware that when the Speaker rises that all members are supposed to sit down. If he has a question to ask then I sug11;est that he get on with it. MR. NEARY: A little hard of hearing in this ear, Your Honour.

AN HONOURABLE YEMBER: Why does the honourable member not get his hair cut? _MR. NEARY: Would the minister undertake to 11:et me a list of all the contracts that have been let down at the Industrial Park? A.1'1 HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is too embarrassing. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chaiman, I am not asking the Minister of Finance. MR. EARLE: Mr.

Speaker, the question was asked the other day, "Were tenders called and if so were they awarded the lowest tender?" I gave the answer and if the honourable member want to ask another question of that nature which takes some time to dig out,I shall request that he put it on the Order Paper. I MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I can appreciate the fact that it takes some ;time I I to dip; it out. Would the minister undertake to get it for me? MR. EARLE: Order Paper. MR. NEARY: Order Paper. Too embarrassing to the Minister of Fi11ance and the family compact. MR. EARLE: Order Paper. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, last week I directed a question to the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. He indicated he was going to get the answer for me. I wonder does he have it concerning the negotiations with the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs with respect to the Conne Causeway proposal? I can repeat the question if the honourable member should want me to. 5427

May 7, 19 74 . Tape 1546 (Afternoon) RH - 9 MR. 'r. DOYLE: I thought t answered that question last we.ek, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: I remind the minister I asked a question concerning what negotiations had taken place or if inde·ed there were negotia .tions taking place. The minister said something to the effect that there was something rather general going on by way of negotiations but he would have to check to see if there is anything specific with respect to the Conne Causeway.

I wonder if he could indicate now whether his department is indeed involved in negotiations directly on the l!IStter of funds for the Conne Uver Causeway? MR. SPEAKER: The b;mourable Minister of TouriSlil, RON. T. DOYLE: No, my department is not involved directly with negotiations on the Conne River Causeway, Mr. Speaker. The involvement of my department in that regard is in the overall federal--J)rovincial agreement which we have raised from $1 million to $1.5 million to cover the seven or eight locations in Labrador to!';ether with the Conne River area which waa added to the agreement last year.

We are not involved direc .tly w.ith any negotiations on the Conne Riv-er Brid11:e. 5428

May 7, 1974 Tape no. 1547 Page l - MW supplementary: Will any of the $1.5 _million - does the minister anticipate that any of that amount will be made available for the causeway project? MR. DOODY: I will have to take that as notice, Mr. Speaker; I cannot answer that offhand. If that is the specific question that the honourable member is asking, I shall try to get an answer for him. I thought I satisfied him last week. I will try and get that information for him. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have been on this subject for some time. I will try it another way. Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the Premier, I would like to direct a question to the Acting Premier. I would like to ask him if the government are carrying on any negotiations at present with the federal government for the purpose of obtaining funding for the Conne River project? AN HON. ~ER: (Inaudible). MR. SUOONS: Perhaps we should ask of the Acting Premier. I meant the ~uestion, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Justice. I MR. SPF.AXER: Order please! ) I am sure the Hon.

Member for Hermitage is aware that any questions directed to ministers of the crown should be directed to a specific minister and some department. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that fifty per cent of the ministers are absent again today, Sir, from their seats. MR. SPEAKER: I am sure the Hon. Member for Bell Island is aware that it is not the responsibility of the Chair to make certain that the ministers are in their seats. MR. NEARY: Is there any obligation at all, Sir, on the part of the ministers to be in their seats during the question and answer period? _MR.

SPEAKER: Again I am sure the Hon. Member for Bell Island is aware that it is not the duty of the Chair to make certain that they are. 5429

May 7, 1974 Tape no. 154 7 Page 2 MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, may I draw to the attention of the House that only forty per cent of the opposition are in their seats at this time. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The thirty minutes for the question period has now expired. On motion that the House go into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. GILLETTE: Mr. Chairman, last night when we adjoumed, I was just about finished.

I was starting to compare, if one would call it, the departments and suggest that with only twenty hours remaining or some twenty-one hours remaining that we should, I believe as a responsible committee, get along with the business of the estimates. The Department of Transportation,

whereas I believe .we all realize and appreciate the importance of it, as evidenced I believe in all the petitions that have been presented in this Rouse, I suppose ninety per cent of the petitions are presented for the attention of the Department of Transportation. The work of that department does result in a terrific income, a tremendous income to the treasury,in the gasoline taxes, the sales taxes,on automobiles and the other various incomes, not to mention the incomes from fines, speeding fines and whatnot. Rowever,Mr.

Chairman, I feel personally that as important as that department is, we should satisfy ourselves that we have fairly well covered it and get on to some of the departments which, again I say in my opinion, do not only generate income but they also make possible employment opportunities as well as resource develoment and other very important departments dealing with the rank and file of people of our province; namely, the fishermen, the labourers and everybody in general. I am thinking about the Department of Fisheries, Mr . Chairman. I am thinking also of the Department of Manpower, a very 5430

May 7, 1974 Tape no. 1547 Page 3 important department, particularly in view of the fact that we have been faced with so many illegal strikes. There is a great responsibility on that department. I would like to see something done with the estimates of that department so that some discussion can be conducted under the minister's salary. Mr.Chairman, I think I should sit down because it is now 4:14 P.M. , but I would like to reiterate to the Minister of Transportation and Communications the needs of my district. A petiti?n was presented today concerning one road in particular. There are others.

I am sure he is aware of it. I am sure his officials are aware of it, I have been told of their awareness. I do hope, Mr.Chairman, that before too long, before many days actually, I should be able to pass along to the people of my district a favourable report, a favourable prograDDDe of roads rebuilding, of roads being paved, particularly the paving of the road around the harbour and the area of Twillingate itself. Hr.

Chairman,! suppose I would be out of order if I were to suggest that a question be now put because somehow or o~her I feel there might be some other speakers who might wish to contri\ute to the Department of Transportation and Communications. I know we have not heard from anybody on the other side, particularly the backbenchers, Mr. Ghairman. I am wondering whether or not they do actually know what is going to be done in their districts. It causes one to wonder. None of them have spoken, at least on behalf of their districts. Mr.

Chairman, I will end by saying once again to the Minister of Transportation and Communications, because he has chosen not to reveal his programme publicly but rather that he will reveal it individually - I am going to hold him to that promise as far as my district is concerned, I can assure him that I shall be knocking on his door within the next day or two. 5431

May 7, 1974 Tape no. 154 7 Page 4 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to address a few comments before this head passes. First of all there are two or three items which affect the District of Hermitage itself. I hope the minister, either now or privately, can give me some of the answers. None of the issues I am going to raise are particularly new to the minister nor to his colleagues in government because all of them, without exception, are commitments which were made to the people in various parts of the district last fall, during the Hermitage by-election. It is a complete coincidence, of course, Mr.

Chairman, but that is quite beside the point here. One of the matters I want to raise in this respect is the matter of upgrading and paving a

section of road in the Co11111111nity of Seal Cove, from the main road to the fishermen's wharf. This was a commitment made in November and one which I am having some difficulty to nail down since. It is a need improvement,and the minister is familiar with the details of it I believe. I would certainly like to read that one into the record so he can undertake to do something about it. The second matter is the matter of upgrading the Harbour Breton Road which serves not only parts of my district but also parts of the Fortune Bay District.

In the absence of any representation publicly by the Minister of Municipal Affairs whose district is affected, let me be doubly vocal on the point because the Harbour Breton Road which serves a number of couununities is certainly in need of upgrading. ·rndeed ·again, Mr. Chairman, I do not want to elaborate these points because the minister and his government are well aware of this problem,having made that another of the promises last fall during the Hermitage by-election. One can only come to the conclusion in view of that, Mr.

Chairman, that not only is the government aware of the needs but has established a set of priorities and has placed the needs I am mentioning here sufficiently high, and I feel that they warrant a commitment. This couunitment was made. I can find all kinds of witnesses, hundreds of them, 400 in one hall alone in 5432

May 7, 1974 Tape no. 1547 Page 5 Harbour Breton, not to mention some other hundreds in Hermitage, Seal Cove and so on. There are lots of witnesses to these commitments in case the minister's memory is forgetful or in case he was not there 9 as is the "case. He was not there at all times when those promises were made,but they were made. The need is there. The commitment has been made. I call upon the minister to see that the commitment is kept this year with respect to the Harbour Breton Road upgrading. There is another item.in the same category, the category of a commitment, that

section of road from Seal Cove to the Harbour Breton Junction, to the junction of the Seal Cove, Hermitage Road and the Harbour Breton Road. Once again the same comments apply. The need has been recognized by the govemment,as witnessed by the firm commitment made last fall. Since then I have been having considerable difficulty getting any indication when these projects are to start. I would say that common decency at this point requires that they be started forthwith and that they be started this spring. I would hope that the minister could indicate that to me.

I come now to not .only another promise but a matter of some pretty vital concern to the people who live at Coane River. It is the much talked about proposed Conne River causeway. This promise was not only made verbally on a number of occasions but it is in writing. Mr. Chairman, as you know, having sat in this Rouse for the last couple of months, you too have seen the runaround I have gotten on this one. Nobody has done the negotiating. The Minister of Transportation said that it was not his baby. The Minister of Recreation thought it was but now does not think so.

All in all I cannot seem to get many answers from anybody on this subject. I am told from sources outside the House that indeed there is no request. 'lhere is not even a request to Ottawa at this particular time, notwithstanding the pretty complete runaround that I have gotten on the subject. There is no request, Mr. Chairman, I understand,to Ottawa for the funds to 5433

May 7, 1974 Tape no. 1547 Page 6 build the Conne River causeway and thus connect the Communities of Conne River and Burnt Woods to the province's road system. Mr, Chairman, there are a lot of needs that cannot be fulfilled overnight; I appreciate that. When a need such as the Conne River causeway comes to the point where it is promised verbally and in writing during an election ca11paign and then immediately after everybody passes the buck, nobody knows anything about it, 11 It is not in my department.

It is another fellow's department." For two months or three months or more,since I first raised questions in this House on the subject, I have yet to get a satisfactory answer from anybody, from any minister or from the Premier or the Acting Premier. As was witnessed today I have yet to get any kind of an answer even an unsatisfactory one. I still do not lcnow whether the government has done anything whatsoever about the Conne River causeway except to promise it last fall. I know they did that. I have that in writing. It is printed in their campaign newsletter. Apart from that, Mr.

Chairman, there is nots hint, nothing at all. Mr. Chairman, I would go so far as to say that a number of attempts have been made not to answer the questions that have been put. The answers are simple, Mr. Chairman. Either the government is carrying on negotiations with Ottawa or it is not. I cannot even really determine that. I can determine from outside sources.

My sources are that the government is not carrying on negotiations but I am willing to have that contradicted because I would like to hear more than anything else that this government has made a request, an application or whatever for funds for the Conne River causeway. I would like for the minister to answer this point as well if he would. 5434

May 7, 1974 Tape DO. 1547 Page 7 The subject of road maintenance has been gone over so I will cover it very briefly. I just want to say that I am aware of the department's problems, equipment problems and personnel problems - I do not mean problems with present personnel but the problems of finding enough men to do the job. I am one who admires greatly the senior civil servants in the minister's department. What I am going to say should in no way be construed as being a criticism of any individual or individuals in tt)at department.

My relationship with them over the years has been good, The rapport has been quite satisfactory. When the minister or whoever responds to the comments I am going to make on the subject of road maintenance, I hope they do not drag in red herrings about how I am running down the officials of the department. That is not the issue, Mr. Chairman, and I am sick and tired in the last week or so of sitting here and hearing the red herring approach to many of the questions that my colleagues in the opposition have asked. These are questions which require answers.

We do not expect the minister to have all the answers but we certainly expect him to either give us the answer or not give ii to us straight without using the red herring approach. On the subject of road maintenance, I am no authority on all the roads in the province over the past number of years but from my fairly considerable travelling over the past few years, this spring ·must really take the cake in terms of road conditions. Some of it can be blamed on weather conditions but there is still a lot of blame left to apportion elsewhere.

I would suggest that a fair amount of it must relate to the bottleneck which has been created by the shortage of equipment which in turn is created by the numbers of pieces of equipment which have been in disrepair literally all the winter• sitting in depots in Grand Falls and elsewhe -re because somebody did not take the matter in hand and has not found enough mechanics to do the job. Whatever the reason, it is for the minister to address himself to. 5435

May 7, 1974 Tape no, 1547 Page 8 Mr. Chairman, the state of roads around this province must be a record this year. In terms of their present state, it must be an all-time low, It must be the worst ever in terms of road conditions. I say some of it can be blamed on the weather conditions but a lot of it has to be blamed on the shortage of equipment. The minister would do the people of Newfoundland a great favour if he would indicate what he intends to do to cope with that problem so it does not reoccur again next spring. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to come very briefly ta another matter which I believe has not been raised in the committee, although I thought the minister might have been alluding to it yesterday when he talked about a matter affecting working on holidays, (I believe this is a separate issue) Sunday work, working on Sundays. I understand that with the new shift arrangements that have been introduced in the past few months, a number of men are working as a matter of course or as a matter of their regular shift on Sunday. I have no beef with this, I think this is quite in order.

If men have to be away from their families on a Sunday to carry out the necessary functions,well and good, I do undertstand that a number of people, including some in my district, for religious reasons, have objected to working regularly on Sundays. Now, Mr. Chairman, let me make a distinction between regularly scheduled work and an emergency type of work. I believe the latter must be attended to when the emergency arises. Obviously I would say to the minister and his officials that there was another way around this particular problem.

The way that it was solved has caused 8 number of problems for people who, for religious reasons, did not want to be on a regular

schedule on Sunday. They stated quite openly in writing to the minister that they would be quite prepared to work when called on to do so in an emergency,but that is not what is happening, Right now there is a regular shift, Those 5436

May 7, 1974 Tape no, 1547 Page 9 people are performing chores such as filling potholes and that kind of thing, ditching and grading, which could certainly be scheduled during the week. 5437 I \ I

May 7, 1974 Tape 1548 (Afternoon) PK-1 To understand the issue, Mr. Chairman, it is worth pointing out that there is not a double shift on all days. If there were a double shift on all seven days, well there would be nowhere else to put the shifts; but there is now, as I understand, a double shift on only three or four of the days. I would suggest, on behalf of the people involved, that much of the work which is now being done on Sunday could be acco11DDodated by a second shift on Thrusday, Friday or Saturday. It did create a dilemma for a nU111ber of people and indeed, Mr.

Chairman, as the minister knows, one individual in particular on princinle had quit his job. He is not a bizarre sort of individual who is looking for an out. He is a very hard-working man. He now, as I understand it, has a job elsewhere. On the grounds of principle he did leave his job with the department, because he could not be accom­ modated without having to work Sundays on a regular basis. I would like to comment for a moment, Mr. Chairman, on the matter of ferries, boat ferries, the, Member for Bell Island had mentioned and other colleagues I believe.

I am glad that the Member for Bell Island did remind the Premier of his promise of two years ago. I was less glad with the rather lighthearted way in. which the Premier dealt with the promise. We on this side can remind the Premier of any number of promises, in the dozens and literally in the hundreds, certainly in the dozens as it relates to Hermitage but I would say in the hundreds as it relates to the provincial election in March, 1972. We could remind him of hundreds that have not been kept.

We can understand that some promises are easier to make than keep; some promises are made at a time when all the factors are not known. It is easy to make promises but once one investigates the details involved it is harder to admit that the promise cannot be kept. That is under­ stood; that some promises cannot be kept for any number of reasons , But to sit in this House, as the Premier did yesterday, and just laugh at the idea and to acknowledge (1) that he made the promise and (2) that it has not been kept, seems to me to be baiting the public, 5438

Taoe 1548 (Afternoon) PK-2 to be teasing the very people who voted for him, often on the basis of those promises. I say that that kind of treatment is not good enough. I heard the Premier distinctly say, on a number of occasions I saw him quoted in the newspapers and my colelague, the Member for Bell Island, quoted from one of the press reports to the effect that the Premier con­ sidered that the ferry system ought to be part of, ought to be an extension of the highway network. I happen to agree with him on that point and I was rather happy when I heard it in his election platform two or three years ago.

Sir, to hear him, two or three years later, treat the matter so lightly, as he did vesterday in the House, is somewhat of a disappointment. T believe this. government ought to realize at some point that it is not just good enough to sit and laugh at the promises that were made and n~t kept, that at some point the people of Newfoundland want to know whether these promises indeed were made with no intention of being kept later or whether the government indeed have some kind of a plan to include ferries in the highways system or whether the government have found for some reason it cannot do so.

Be whatever the case, Mr. Chairman, the people of Newfoundland at least deserve an answer on this particular point. I heard the Premier say yesterday, also in response when on this exchange about ferries, that ~twas all dependent again on Ottawa. Now, ~r. Chairman, there were no qualifications two years ago. /In the March election there were no qualification, there was no statement such as; "We will consider the ferry to Bell Island or the ferry to Fogo or the Ferry to Little Bay Islands.

We will consider these ferries as part of the extension of the roads system; if we get money from Ottawa." There was no "If" in there then but lots of "IFs" now, Mr. Chairman. Every day we hear them, whether about roads or projects or any kind of projects. Everything now can be blamed on Ottawa and suddenly Ottawa become a scapegoat for all the promises that were made two years ago and which this government are not keeping. The item of ferries, Mr.

Chairman, is particularly important to me because another promise, another promise - you must be sick of hearing about promises, about the promises that were made in the Hermitage by-election, ~r. Chairman, but I will give you notice that you will hear about them 5439

May 7, 1974 Tape 1548 (Afternoon) PK - 3 a lot yet because I made one promise in the Hermitage by-election too. I promised that for the first year or so, I would give first priority to seeing to it that the government kept every promise it made in the Hermitage by-election. That is what I intend to do. I intend to repeat them and regurgitate them a~d shove them down peoples throat and remind them and remind them in writing, orally, every possible way I can.

I believe that if I can get the government to keep even twenty­ five per cent of the promises it made in Hermitage last fall, I would have done a great service to the people of the District of Hennitage. Another of the promises that were made, Mr. Chairman, was the promise that a ferry service would be provided by government between Hermitage and the Community of Gaultois which as you know, Mr. Chairman, is on an island, Long Island in Hermitage Bay.

This is a promise that had no "Ifs" attacked to it, not the kind of "If" we heard recently when we were talking about the subject to government officials, the explanation that we must wait until September, we must wait until we get an agreement with Ottawa, etc. etc. The promise was made in the presence of many of hundreds of people that a ferry would be provided for the Community of Gaultois this spring. I have quoted the Premier almost word for word "Would be provided this spring." Well this spring has come and it is fast slipping away.

At this point • we are having difficulty getting any kind of a co111111itment from the Minister of Transportation or the Premier about the status of this promise or at what point it is going be acted upon. I call upon the minister now or when I sit down to indicate what his department or his government intends to do on this particular subhead. Mr. Chairman, what I have done in the last few minutes in referring to particular specific items is just another step jn what my colleagues have done in listing a number of items requiring attention. In any respect it is by no means an exhaustive list.

I had one that was more lengthly which I could have put before the Committee but in watching the pattern of events since these estimates came before the ConnittPe I have been,to say 5440

May 7, 1974 Tape 1548 (Afternoon) PK - 4 the least,very disappointed with the way things have gone. We on this side , my colleagues each in turn has stood and put to the minister a number of specific questions. Then I do not completely blame him. He is a man with party loyalties too but then for whatever reason and I suggest the reason is because he got his instructions, he stands up and demonstrates his amazing ability to say in an hour what can be said in ten minutes and at the same time avoid answering the very specific questions that have been put to him.

I say that is unfortunate and I say it is particularly unfortunate that he should get drawn into this but it has hecome the rather obvious government game of filibustering through, taking as long on these estimates as possible so we do not get a chance of getting through all of the depart­ ments and therefore do not have a chance of putting some pretty important questions in respect to the estimates of other departments. Mr. Chairman, I heard the minister two or three days ago responding to a member on this side - I am not sure which member - it is not relevant to what I want to say.

I heard him being asked about the government's road plane for this particular year. I was rather ) amazed with the answer, particularly when he finally said at the end,: J rather unequivocally he said that he was not going to tell anybody. Now this is the crowd, Mr. Chairman, who were going to tell it like ft is. As somebody said before; "Tell it like it is and let it all hang out." They were going to be honest with the people? goiny, to level.

Now the attitude is, if I can hear what the Minister of Transportation is saying, if I understand h;l.m correctly, now I hear him say, "Look, we know something you do not know and we are not going to tell you." That is the attitude. That is the arrogance. "We are not going to tell you." But he is telling some people. Mr. Chairman, he has told the Member for St. Georges about $1 million worth of roads in his district. Let him deny that . If the minister had not told the Member for St. Georges, how did he find out? I maintain the minister had told him.

I maintain that the minister has told the Member for Bonavista South, who indicated in the 5441

May 7, 1974 Tape 1548 (Afternoon) PK - 5 Committee a few days ago, in response to a question from the Leader of the Opposition, he indicated that he knew what was going to be done in his district this year. I maintain that the Minister of Transportation told him. I maintain that the Minister of Transportation told the Member for St. Barbe ~outh what was to be done in his district this year, the Minister of Forestry,who passed on the information to a person in his district and had it read out subsequently at a meeting of the Rural Development Association. Development Association? Is that correct?

At a meeting of the Rural Now, Mr. Chairman, we have heard denials of these items but nobody has given a reasonable, plausible explanation of where the information came from. Where did the Member for St. Georges get his information? Was he having one of his lightheaded moments and just thought up $1.1 million out of thin air? Nobody put the figure in his mind or told him what roads were going to be built. He just dreamed it all up. Was the Member for Bonavista South just bluffing the Committee? Saying he knew what was going to be done in his district when in effect he did not know. Was the person in St.

Barbe South who stood at that meeting of the Regional Development Association fabricating? Was that person telling a lie? Was she saying incorrectly that the minister had given her this information? Is the Minister of Transportation saying that all of these people are wrong and he is right? Or is he being caught in a bit of a jam? Have his colleagues let him down bv being just e little too public? He did them a favour, Mr. Chairman, he went to them as fellow caucus members and tipped them off as to what was going to be done in their districts. Then they let him down. Is that what happened?

They went out and could not keep it in until the estimates came through, went out and spread the word in St. Barbe South, in Bonavista South and in St. Georges. I do not care whether he did or not, Mr. Chairman, as long as we on this side get the same kind of treatment, as long as what the minister tells the Rouse of Assembly reflects what happened in St. Georges and 5442

May 7, 1974 Tape 1548 (Afternoon) PK - 6 in Bonavista South and in St. Barbe South. As you know, ~r. Chairman, up to this minute what the minister has said contradicts what happened there, because he tells us, first of all he does not know exactly what is going to be done and secondly he has not told anybody. Of course, if he do not know, he obviously could not have told anybody. T maintain he does know. I also maintain, Mr. _Chairman, that if he should not know, I do not know what he is doing as a minister, if he should not know in May month , I do not mean every last detail. Mr.

Chairman, certainly there is a cushion in there for various reasons, the unexpected inflation and so on. But I just cannot believe, Mr. Chairman, that the minister, the first week of May, the minister who,from all my contacts with him and from all appearances that I know of, is in fairly good c011D11and of the situation as far as his department is concerned. It is something we could not at all say for the Minister of Rural Development,by the way. I just cannot believe that in the month of May with the construction season upon us that he does not know what is going to money.

If so, it puzzles me that he should COl!le into be done with that ) this C0111111ittee rtth a set of estimates, apparently based on projects and estimates and cost analysis and so on, ' it puzzles me that he should come in with the figures down so pat, right to the last cent and still tells us that he does not know what is going to be done. Mr. Chairman, I maintain that he does know what iR going to be done. There is still one other possibility. If I should be wrong on that, there is one other possibility. Perhaps it is all one great big multi m:l.llion dollar slush fund.

Perhaps the minister is telling us the complete truth, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps he does not know. Perhaps that is the tactic. Perhaps there is no policy; as he has intimated at times. Perhaps it is one big slush fund. Who ever kicks the loudest or talks the most or whatever gets the funds. Perhaps no decisions have been made. Perhaps there is no overall plan, no overview of the roads problem this year. Perhaps instead it is one big slush fund to be distributed without any particular deferences to where the need is greatest. 5443

May 7, 1974 Tape 1548 (Afternoon) PK - 7 Mr. Chairman, will the minister be just a little more clear on this particular point of road projects for this year? Will he tell us when he is going to let us know? Will he tell us when he will know himself? Will he tell us if the problem is that the road programme has not been determined yet for this year? Is that what he is saying? That is what he admitted several weeks ago in the House. Is that still the case in Kay month,that the road programme has not been determined for this year?

Or is it that, as I said earlier, the minister is keeping a slush fund to be dispensed accordin~ to the occasion rather than according to the needs? Is he going to be governed in his decisions by whoever kicks up the loudest noise? Mr. Chai1:111an, we have been in this Committee now on Transportation for several days and these questions that I have asked have been asked in various fo1:111s by other of my colleagues on this side. I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer.

I have heard the minister say in essence, "Yes, we know,but we are not going to tell you." I have heard him say on another occasion and I think I quote him fairly exacting on this, that he did not think it was right for someone to accuse him of having no policy _because he did not announce it. Oh, Mr. Chai1:111an, at some point, he is going to have to give some evidence that he does have a policy. If by his own admission he has not announced it, I am at a loss to know how it is: How do I know he has got a policy? He will not tell us. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

SIMMONS: He says, "We are not going to announce a policy until we are ready." When is that going to be, Mr. Chail"lll8n? They have been in office now a couple of years. He is out of step with his colleagues on this one. His other colleagues are announcing everytime they can get hold of a microphone. The Minister of Education did not wait today until he had every "i" dotted and every "t" crossed on education policy. He comes in one day and he tells us about the policy with respect to bursaries, another day the policy with respect to bus transportation, another day the Policy with respect to pupil/t~acher ratio.

I say this is a fair approach to things. As a policy gets evolved in a particular area, the Minister of Education comes into the Rouse and announces that 5444

'May 7, 1974 Tape 1548 (Afternoon) policy to the House. We may not agree with it or agree with all he said but we can at least know what the policy is. PK - 8 But here we are, Mr. Chainn~n, fn reference to Transportation we do not have a click, not acl.ue, not the first clue what the policy is. The minister just will not tell us: He said that he will not tell us. Not that he does not know but he is not going to tell us. He is going to wait until he gets it all worked out. Mr. Chairman, did it occur to the minister that just as he gets it all worked out there is going to be another emergency somewhere?

Or there is going to be something that is going to change the whole set of circumstances and he is going to have to start all over again working it out? What kind of double talk is this, Mr. Chairman? Will he just give us a broad hint. a kind of a general drift of the policy to date? What is the drift of the policy? Is it to concentrate on major arteries acr~ss the province? Is it to concentrate on local roads? Is it to concentrate on upgrading, on paving? You know, there must besom~ emphasis in the department. There must be some indication of what the government's priority is in this particular year.

I cannot believe,just because I have too much faith in people, including the minister! I cannot believe that they do not have a click what they are going to do. I cannot believe that. I think they must have some general idea at least. I would go further than that, Mr. Chairman, that I think they had some pretty particular ideas too. I say it is less than honest to the people of Newfoundland and to this House not to indicate to the committee what plans are in store in terms of the roads programme in Newfoundland this year. Will he indicate what his department is going to do this year? I repeat, Mr.

Chairman, that is essentially the question that is being put to him hy a number of people on this side. I have seen him give very long-winded answers on the subject . I do not particularly accuse him on that point. I think, as I say, he had his instructions and if somebody tugs you by the arm and tells you to play the game of filibuster I suppose there is a degree to which one is supposed to go along with it. 5445

~ay 7, 1974 Tape 1548 (Afternoon) PK - 9 So I ask him now in the interest of, and I repeat, I echo what my colleague for Twillingate said, in the interest of our getting on to other government departments, I ask the minister to get up and give us a few straight answers to the overall questions we have raised about where the emphasis is going to be this year. What is the general government policy on the subject? And I ask him to quit this nonsense of teasing us, of saying,"Raw! Haw!

I know something that you do not know and I am not going to tell you." Now that is basically what I have heard the minister say,u~fortunately,on this particular subject and I say, Mr. Chairman, it is not good enough. If that be so well the whole business of estimates is going to be a complete mockery, particularly if the other ministers follow in the footsteps and the pattern of the 'Mi.nister of Transportation.

If everytime we ask a question he is going to get up,he is going to get up and (1) use the red herring approach, which he is extremely skilled at from my observations of the past few days, (1) use the red herring approach and (2) keep saying I am not going to tell you anything until I get it all worked out. If that be.the case, Mr. Chairman, let the government Rouse Leader indicate to us that is the pattern. We will just call off the whole business and let the estimates go through. We are not anxious just to stand here and talk for the sake of talking.

If there are going to be no answers, let the minister indicate this, let the government Leader 5446

May 7, 1974 Tape No. 1549 NM - 1 indicate this and let us get on with the task and do somethinp.; more productive than just standing here and asking questions for which the government has decided that we are not going to get the answers anyway. Now we are not asking any prying, embarrassing questions, Mr. Chairman. Fe are asking the kind of questions that it was not even needful to ask a couple of years ago when the actin~-minister came in with the list of projects.

Now if the nresent minister cannot get it down that fine, if he cannot come up with a complete list of projects, that is understandable but certainly he knows some of the jobs that are to be done this year. He has a general drift, a rough idea of what is to be done and for him to stand in this committee, Mr. Chairman. and say that he is not going to tell us anything until it is all worked out, well that is a fine academic exercise. If he were up at the university writing papers, that would be a fine stance for him to take.

"I am not p;oing to do anything until I get my research all done;' that this a great academic approach.

But for a man who is involved in the day to day, the ongoing administration of a department, to stand here and consider a roads programme for the province as some kind of a term paper at university, somethinp; that he is going to polish up and do the final draft of and then get it typed and bring it in and say, "Now fellows, what do you think?" Does he not realize that in the meantime the province goes Qn, the needs are getting more pressing and the people want to know. rightfullv want to know what is going to be done about roads in various parts of the province this summer. It is not, Mr.

Chairman, good enough, the stance that the Minister of Transportation has taken is just not good enough. In this debate so far on transportation there have been no answers on the subject. I am sorry to have to take - I am not sorry.because I am being honest in what I am sayinp;,but what I mean, Mr. Chairman, is I regret having to take this narticular approach because the reputation I have come to p;ain of the minister, what I know of the minister, his reputation is one of not being a filibuster, not one of talking through his teeth but a .... 7 :)l!-Q.

~lay 7, l'l74 Tape No. 1549 NM - 2 fellow who tells it like it is,and this has been my private experience with him in meetings and so on, For some reason, and the only reason I can come up with is that it is part of the overall government filibust.!r on this subject, for some reason he has taken - ~- '-IARSHALL: -·------- On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I cannot stand it any more. The honourabl~ member is talkin? about filibusters but it is obviously needless repetition.

You know he has taken twenty solid minutes to ask the same ouestion over and over again and he has the unmitigated gall to get up and accuse the government of - MR. SU!MO~S: ·---- ·-- What is the Point of order, Mr. Chairman? ~1R. MA.RSflf\LL: The Point of order is quite briefly this, unnecessary repetition in its most ribald form that you can possibly get, ~Ir. Chairman, I mean,do they want to examine the estimates or do they want to make as big a fool of themselves in opposition as they did in government. ~...:...2!!!11.Q.N~:_ To the point of order, Mr.

Chairman, I would concede that is needless from one standpoint, It should not be needed because we should have had the answers a long time ago, I repeat it because the minister obviously has not heard the questions yet and I shall continue to repeat it until he does. ~~WILSON: ~r. Chairman, I would like to speak to these estimates. !1'.R-_~I~NS: Point of order, Mr. Chairman, I am waiting for a ruling on your point of order, Learn the rules boy, talk to witch-hunt. !ffi. CllAfRMAN: Order please!

Again the new rule concerning needless repetition is cne that is very difficult to enforce and requires a great deal of perception, power to hear, decipher, categorize, catalogue a member's speech, I do believe that the points being made by the honourable member for Hermitage I have J--eard them before, made hath by himself and by other honourable members. Whether they are in fact needless repetition is a question of judgement which Tam not prepared to make at this time. However, . ! do believe that he was p.etting into a matter of policy which is irrelevant to head 1701-01.

This might be better debated during the budget debate itself and consequently while he may not he needlessly repetitious, he may nevertheless have be.en irrelevant. So I suggest 5448

May 7, 1974 Tape No. 1549 NM - 3 that the honourable member mi~ht be more relevant. MR. SIMMONS: Are you saying that I cannot discuss the general roads policv? Is that what you just said, Sir? That is what I was talking about at the time. HR. CHAIR'fAN: Maybe the honourable member should listen more carefully to the ruling. He is getting into general policy statements which were not concerning transportation and communications. )'ffi., SI~ONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I can only interpret from the concern of the Minister Without Portfolio that our answers to the questions will be brief and less than twenty minutes and I hope the Minister of Transportation takes that matter under advisement. We have had some longer answers than that in the past two or three days, or longer non-answers, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I was about to wind up by commending the Minister of Transportation but his colleague interfered with my doing that.

I was about to say that I had come to res_pect him privately for his ability to get to the point and to not talk through his teeth but to give you the answers as he knew them but for some reason his tactic in this debate has been quite different. I suggest that it is because he has instructions to carry on a filibuster. I know that hurts the Minister Without Portfolio,to hear the truth. He knows because he is the engineer of that fact. "IR. CHAIRMAN: Order please!

The Chair has alr·eady ruled on that point of order raised by the honourable the Minister Without Portfolio, now the member for Hermitage is deaiing with the point of order, not with head 1701-01. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I understood that the minister had risen on a point of needless repetition, I understood you not to have ruled against me on that. Is that correct? !iR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Hermitage I feel quite sure can understand what the Chairman is sayinP..

At this point the Chair is saying that the member is being irrelevant.which is one of the rules which is not too difficult to enforce or to perceive. Consequently I suggest 5449

'-lay 7, l'l74 Tape No. 1541) NM - 4 the honourable member proceed with head 1701-01. The honourable member was proceeding to discuss the point of order raised by the ~inister Without Portfolio, which point of order had already been ruled upon by the Chair. 'IP-. SIMMONS: I understand, "Ir. Chairman, we are on the minister's salary and I am tryinp. with some difficulty to talk about the minister whose salary we are talkinp. about. Now are you saying that that is irrelevant too? I was of the opinion it was not. I will try it aii:ain and we will see what happens.

The '~1nister of Transf!ortation has certll.inly, dPspite the fact he 'ias not answered many questions in this clebate so far, done far better than his nreclece1;sor, the ' 1inister of 'P.ural Development, on the subject,Rnd for which he is to he coMDlended. He has certainly been more knowledgeable of his department, for which he is to be commended. lie has certainly heen less arrogant in his approach than the Minister of Finance, fo::: which he is to be commended.

Now then if he would ret to some oertinent ans~,ers to the questions that have been raised hy me and by my other colleap:ues on this side, then we would get on with it and ~et on to some other departrnent,which we would dearly like to do,hut we would very much like to know what oolicy exists in thies department and why it is sucl-i a state secret that we on this side cannot be told ,1hat it is all ahout. 'IP.. W"ILSO"I · T would Ji ke to speak in this de hate, I quite agree with the honourahlP rnemhPr for Tw1llinr.ate.

It ii; time for us to proceed 'Ind p:et on with tre husiness of thies House, I am sure that if every honourable p:entlPman who was mentioned on this side in this debate had used up so nuch time in this dehate as the member for Hermitage is after using UTJ, ''r. Chairman, we would have to put the plows back on the graders a)!ain to plow the snow, there would be nothinp- done on the hip:hroads this summP-r with what time has been used on the other side. I have a district too as well as all honourable members in this Fouae .

If we use up so much time as thr honourable member for Hermitage has used up, we vould have the snow on the ground. 5450

May 7, 1974m Tane N'1. 1549 NM - 5 MR. CHAIR_tlAN:. Order please! With all due respect to the honourable member, the rule of relevancy has to he nnnli ed with fairness and equanimity and consequently while the points made by tha honourable the member for Hermitage may have been more appropriate at the time the point of order was raised by the honourable the }tinister Without Portfolio, I have to rule that he must either deal with head 1701-01, Transportation and Communications,or I may have to rule him out of order.

But I suggest he probably has made his point. ~- WILSON: Under the heading of 1701-01, as the honourable member for Twillingate has mentioned,that no one of this side of the House has spoke to, as I have said before, every honourable member here haq a district. I have one. I know the needs that go into it as well as the member for Hermitap,e knows the needs. But if we have to spend our time here on one estimate alone to get through, what would we have done 1n this honourable House?

We have districts to proceed to and have work done in them and if we do not allow the honourable minister to turn around and get on w1th the work and try to pet something done, I am doubtful today that any roads will be done in our district or anvbody else's. ~1R. CHAIRllAN: The Minister of Transportation and Conununications. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member for Labrador North attempted to get up, I wonder if he has a question, I would hate to lose the value of what he might have to contribute If he has a question that he wish time. answered I shal]be glad to deal with all of them at the one ~- CHAIR~AN: The member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: '1r. Chairman, I would like to thank the minister for allowing me the privilege to get up.

A couple of questions, one that I have neglected to ask during the debate was the fact that I want to mention as I understand in the shopping list, the first DREE list that the minister's department did send to Ottawa,was included in that list a bridge for the Community of Northwest River. I understand there was a revised list or the list was amended and sent up again to 545i

1-fay 7, 1974 Tape No. 1549 NM - 6 Ottawa for anproval and it was not included in the second list. So I am under the impression that this ~ridge will not be built this year. The other thinp; I would like to mention is the fact that we have made numerous representations through correspondence an~ delepat1.ons for upgradin? of a road and paving of a road that was built in 1957 between the communities of Goose Bay and Northwest River.

We have reneate<lly asked to have that road upgraded and paved and maybe the minister, when he is speaking or if he cares to do it privately, can tell me this week or the n~xt couple of weeks what plans they do have as far as those two projects, Sir, or if there will be any funding at all for those two projects this year. Now I will not go on to any great length but I would like to pet back again on the tunnel and the Trans Labrador Highway, Mr. Chairman. 1 would appreciate it if the minister would come up and give me the answers. Thank you very much. MR. HICKEY: ~r.

Chairman, I would like to first of all deal with the comments made by the honourable member for Twillingate. Let me say, Sir, it is a pleasure, it was like a fresh breeze, a brand new atmosphere, what else can I say, Mr. Chairman, I do not know how to really describe it because it was a sensible approach, realizing certain facts and putting this whole issue of debate on those estimates in proper perspective.

May 1 say to the honourable gentlemen we on this side appreciate, despite the fact that we have not been able to give certain information that has been requested of us, that someone can appreciate why and has the courage to admit it and say so. Let me say to the honourable gentleman that it is my intention to visit his district during the coming summer, take a look at that causeway we have just finished, and I assure him that I would love to find a few shekels, if there are any around. to do someth.inf'; for him. He says that he is going to knock on my door within the next few days, Let me tell him, lfr.

Chairman, that he is most welcome as any other honourable member is or all honourable members. Let me say to him however, I do not want to lead him as tray. 1 may not be able to tell him 5452

May 7, 1974 Taoe No. 1549 NM - 7 exactly that soon what will apply to his district. But as quickly as I can I will and if he does not visit me, I will be more than hanpy to make contact with him. ' Ir. Chairman, in my early vears I sold for an oil coJ!lllany. I did a bit of sellin~. I thought I was reasonably successful in getting a point across.

But, Sir, I am the first to admit that if one can judge from the corrnnents from the other side,I have failed miserably to convince honourable gentlemen on the other side just what the situation is with regards to a total roads orogrannne or any detailed information with regards to a roads programme for the cominp, year. ~r. Chairman, I indicat~d that right at the start,that I could not, for reasons which I believe are in the public interest and are proper,and would not give any detail with regards to the roads programme. At no tim~, Mr. Chairman, did I sav I did not know what road programme we have.

I said that I knew of a sufficient number of projects to spend over $100 million, much less the approximate amount of the capital funds that we are requestinp, in those estimates today. Over $100 million/ Mr. Chairman, there is no end to the requests. There is no end to the areas that are documented in my department where road work is needed, where oaving is needed, where bridges are needed, where new roads are needed and it goes on. Mr. ChAirman, for anyone to get the impression that we do not have a policy must be because we do not enunciate a roads prograTllltle, You know that is very shallow thinking.

I am sure the honourable gentlemen opposite can appreciate that we have any number of projects. My honourable ·friend from Hermitage refers to the subject in a way that maybe I have a slush fund. Let me assure him I do not. We are asking for an amount of money, Mr. Chairman, that amount of money can be spent on any number of .projects throughout thiF province and will be. What all of them are will ultimately be decided, ~r , Chairman, right up to the last minute. Ml. ROBERTS: There are five on this side and only six on the other side. Could Your Honour ascertain whether there is a quorum? MR.

CHAIRMAN: Ring the bells 5453

May 7 • 1974 Tape no. 1550 Page 1 - MW MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Order please! MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): We have a quorum. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman. I want to answer a couple of the remarks that the Member for Hermitage raised. Under normal circumstances a lot the honourable gentleman said was, as he indicated, repeatingbut there were some things that were said which require an answer. I want to set the record of the committee straight. Again for about the fifth time, Mr.

Chairman, since last Thursday. as I have already said so ma~y times; it is my decision that a detailed roads programme not be released. That is baaed on the experience we have had in this department. It is based on, Mr. Chairman, the experience we have had when we released a roads programme.In good faith,upon the request of the opposition, ire released some sort of detail, not a full roads programme but some sort of detail with regard to a proposed progra.ne one year. My department know only too well, Mr. Chairman what resulted.

This administration acknowledged the request of the opposition and complied and made those details known. From that time, Mr. Chairman, we have adopted the policy of not releasing it. Mr. Chairman, for the fifth or sixth time again in the laat few days, I must repeat there never was a roads programme enunciated by the former administration during estimate time. Yes, Mr. Chairman, someone said a little while ago or a few days ago that there was in 1971 or 1970 or 1971, I am not sure. Of course, there was, in the Arts and Culture Centre, a platform, an election platform. Mr. Chairman, that is fair.

That is what politics is all about. That should not be misconstrued as a detailed programme for one year's estimates. That programme. Mr. Chairman, could not be done in ten years. As a matter of fact I believe it might have been a ten-year plan. 5454

May 7, 1974 Tape no. 1550 Page 2 Mr. Chairman, it is very wrong to suggest that we do not have a policy or we do not have a programme or we do not know what we are doing. On the other hand when the honourable gentleman says that he is sure the honourable minister knows about a programme and has a programme and knows what he is doing, he is arrogant or he adopts the attitude," I know something but you are not going to know." Mr. Chairman, if that is the way honourable gentlemen accept my explanation, I am very sorry. I feel very sorry about that because certainly that is not the intent. The Hon.

Member for Hermitage said, "Tell it as it is." Mr. Chairman, that is exactly what I have been trying to do since last Thursday night, tell it exactly as it is. To be very honest with honourable gentlemen, I will tell them that up to the time the last contract is awarded during the coming year, there will be changes. It might very well mean a change so major as to cut out one project and do another. Mr. Chairman, that is not in any way connected with the game of politics.

That is decided upon because of the factors in the construction industry, because of economics, because of availability of equipment and any number of other reasons. Kr. Chairman, for the sake of the record again, that is the answer to that question as to why I will not enunciate a roads programme. Mr. Chairman, the honourable member referred to certain issues, certain promises. Let me say to him that I have been in cabinet, I have been part of this government since we took office. I know of no issue, no promise that the Premier of this Province has ever made that he has reneged on. I do not know of one, Mr.

Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. HICKEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, honourable gentleman can laugh all they wish. They must remember that this administration is but a little more than two and one-half years eld. The fact that a promise 5455

May 7, 1974 Tape no. 1550 Page 3 is made, the fact that a commitment is made, surely there is no date given in terms of the date of the 111Jnth. Mr. Chairman, - MR. SIMMONS: MR. HICKEY: MR. SIMMONS: Would the honourable gentleman permit a question? Sure. From what the honourable minister just said that no promise has not been kept, can I tell the people of Gaultois that a ferry will be provided this spring as promised? AN HON. MEMBER: By the Premier. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, I have yet to pin down the date that was given by the Premier. I was not there. I did not hear it.

I am well aware of the fact that there was discussion about a proposed ferry for Gaultois. I am aware of that. Mr. Chairman, I am not aware of any date. If there were a date given, Mr. Chairman, is it such a major concern that that date is not keptf There are any number of reasons, Mr. Chairman. The kind of promises that I have heard the Premier make have been kept or certainly the intent is still with this government. This government is still determined to follow through. Mr.

Chairman, I have tried very hard in the last few days to stay away from politics, to try to answer the questions and to be as nonpartisan as I can. Mr. Chairman, it is very difficult. I suggested that if we were to go another day, I might become awfully political. Mr. Chairman, it is most difficult to sit here and to hear honourable gentlemen talk about promises, when this administration is but two and one-half years old. I heard, I listened and heard and listened to promise ~fter promise after promise by the former Administration that were never kept. Mr.

Chairman, not only that but when they were made, the honourable gentleman who made them knew they would never be kept; purely and intentionally to hoodwink the voters, to get votes, purely and intentionally to deceive the people. Mr. Chair"3an, it is most difficult for one to contain one's self when it becomes such a major issue that this administration has not produced within a certain number of months. 5456

May 7, 1974 Tape no. 1550 Page • Mr, Chairman, last night there was a reference made to free ferry service for Bell Island again with regard to a statement made by the Hon, Premier, Let me inform the committee (I did not deal with it last night) from the discussions I have had with the Hon, Premier on a number of occasions that that policy is still the policy of this government. Every effort is being made and will be made because the Hon, Premier believes that all ferries in this province should be free, Should one have to say, Mr.

Chairman, that tied into any promise, any statement of policy, any commitment, shouldone have to give black and white figures, statements to the effect that tied in with such a statement is a cost factor? In most instances in this province, a poor province, one of the hav~-not provinces~ a cost-sharing factor, does one have to spell , this out every time we say that this administration is in favour of this, that or the other thing? Is that not assumed, Mr, Chairman?

How many people are in this province today who do not realize that tied into so many things is the cost-sharing factor and the availability and the acquiring of funds from Ottawa? Surely goodness when the Premier of this Province goes to any part of hhis province and says that his administration stands for and is in favour of a particular issue or a particular policy, it is normally and naturally . assumed that the provincial treasury will not necessarily pick up all of the tab.

Mr, Chairman, I have faith enough in the people of this province also to assume that they know as well that those things are not brought about overnight and that they take a lot of hard work and a lot of hard negotiating. Let Ottawa provide some funds and we will soon see what will happen to the promises that the Premier of this Province makes. They will be carried out, Better again, Mr. Chairman, when the Premier of this Province makes a promise that promise is not going to be implemented on the basis of ad hoc policy, 5457

May 7, 1974 Tape no. 1550 Page 5 not well thought - out, just for pure political reasons. lt will be done when a sound policy is developed and when we know exactly where we are going and what we are doing with regard to the issue. Mr. Chairman, as far as I am concerned, I can only answer the Hon. Member for Hermitage,with regard to any commitments that were made by the leader of this government, in a way such as this, that I know of no commitment, no promise, no statement by way of collllllitment that the Hon. Premier has made that he has backtracked on, intends to backtrack on or renege on.

If they can go along with that statement then they can only assume that efforts are being made to fulfill any of those and all of those commitments. There has been some discussion, Mr. Chairman, on the Conne River Bridge. The honourable member says that he is confused and he is not getting any information, Mr. Chairman, to my knowledge, if my memory serves me correctly, I stated the position with regard to the Conne River Bridge, The honourable member referred to it as the Conne River Causeway. The causeway

section is but a small part of the expenditure that will be required for Conne River. Really we are talking about the Conne River Bridge, Mr, Chairman, if he should look through the estimates, he will find that there is $100,000 allocated for the Conne River Bridge as a starter and provincial funds have already been spent and are being spent on the causeway section. The project is ongoing. No one, including myself, has ever said that there will be no bridge across Conne River. No one has ever created any doubt that there would be a bridge. What is the honourable gentleman referring to? I do not know.

Is it so important, Mr .• Chairman, that the details of any negotiations that are underway between a federal department and a provincial government be spelled out at this point in time? Is that so important? Cannot the honourable gentleman accept our word? 5458

May 7, 1974 Tape no. 1550 Page 6 I went to Conne River, Mr. Chairman, during the past year and I told the people of Conne River that they would finally have their bridge. Mr. Chairman, the people of Corine River have been played with and toyed with by the fonner administration about that bridge to no end, so much so that there was a point in time when I am not sure it was safe for any politician of any colour or creed to go there and they could hardly be blamed. Mr. Chairman, this administration set the record very clear and very straight with regard to that project.

The fact that we are not in a position to complete it overnight does not deter in anyway or does not mean in anyway failure on our part to provide that facility. Maybe, Mr •. Chairman, I should give the honourable member. a little more detail with regard to that project, What has to be done before federal funds are available is that a new agreement has to be made between the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs and the Provincial Government, through the Department of Rehabiliation and Recreation, increasing the a1110unt of money that is given under the ninety/ten arrangement. Mr.

Chairman, the fact that this is not all tied up and packaged up and completed, I can tell the honourable gentleman is in no way slowing up the process of that project. Work is ongoing as far as I am concerned. Mr. Chairman, when that agreement is reached, when federal funds are available, we will be ready, our work will be done, we will be in a position to proceed. Mr. Chairman, on that subject, I think the honourable member can rest - assured that everything possible that can be done by this province is being done to bring that project to reality. Mr.

Chairman, the honourable gentleman referred to maintenance problems. He sai_d what has been said in different ways by many honourable gentleman on the other side and what can be said, Mr. Chainnan, and what is said to me by my colleagues on this side about roads throughout the province. Mr. Chairman, I have given 5459

May 7, 1974 Tape no. 1550 Page a detailed explantion with regard to thi"s problem. 1 ' The roads are in an unusual state",it is said, The answer, Mr, Chairman, very quickly is that we have had an unusual winter, which I have repeated, repeated, repeated, repeated and repeated. The roads are in a very poor maintenance state, Mr, Chairman, and I have repeated until I am also blue in the face ·that we have very, very 7 poor equipment that we have beeu trying to replace.

This adlllinistration has and· is making a val.iant effort, a vigorous effort, to replace it w:lth so111e $2 million the first year. something over $2 million the second year, $2.4 this year. What more, Mr, Chairman, can any department or any administration do7 Now, Mr, Chairman, in spite of the fact that this administration has made all that money available, does that solve the problem? 5460

May 7, 1974. Tape 1551 (Afternoon) RH - 1 No. Does that give us the equioment? No. '~e cannot get it. It is not available. Nobody can produce it. So what do I do, Mr. Chair­ man, when I have a grader that is a model 1949? What do I do with that? I get a mechanic to work on it, Mr. Chairman, and I keep prayinp, and try another saint if the last one I prayed to did not work, that it keeps functioning. That is what J do. Who is responsible, Mr. Chairman? Now let us call the shots! The honourable gentleman referred to the phrase , "Tellit as it is".

Well, let us tell it as it is because I am gettinf!; a little tired, Mr. Cha:lrman, of taking the flak that is not mine. The responsibility for the state of the equipment in this department rests squarely with the former administration who pumped in next to no funds in replacement of equipment over the years. Mr. Chaiman, anyone that wants to challenge that statement let him and let him check the estimates. It is there in black and white for anyone to see. Yet I am continuously plagued with problems. I am not complaining. That is my _1ob.

I am continuously plagued by honourable ~embers on both sides about conditions of the roads. I do not complain about that. That is their .1ob. It is my job to deal with them and try and helo them. I do so to the best of our abilit y . Mr. r.hairman, it is something else when it is suggested to me that it