Manitoba Hansard — 8 April 1985 (Sitting 21A, 32nd Legislature, 4th Session)

32-4-21a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 8 April, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. TABLING OF REPORT MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: I'm pleased to table the First Report of the Legislative Assembly Management Commission. Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in anticipation of the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation, it is my pleasure to table the 1985-86 Highway Construction Program. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 16 students of Grade 5 standing from the King Edward School under the direction of Miss Rod; they are from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Burrows.

On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Personal Health Identification Number - adoption of MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether or not the Manitoba Health Services · Commission has adopted a cradle-to-grave computerized identification number system known as the Personal Health Identification Number or PHIN? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I don't know of any new change in policy.

If it has happened, I'll take that as notice and will check with the staff and report to the House. MR. G. FILMON: I wonder, given that the Estimates for the Department of Health are coming up, whether or not the Minister could undertake to bring that information for perhaps later today so that we might discuss that. 612 Ft. Garry Women's Resource Centre - prov. grant MR. G. FILMON: The next question is for the Minister of Community Services and Corrections.

I wonder if-, in view of the fact that the Secretary of State's Department has committed $24,000 to the Fort Garry Women's Resource Centre by way of an operating grant, whether or not her department will be matching that grant. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, it's under review. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether or not she or her department officials committed to the Federal Government that they would, in fact, provide additional support to the Fort Garry Women's Resource Centre? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: No, Mr. Speaker. WAP A - status of negotiations MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Energy. lt's been some time since we've had tabled in this House the Memorandum of Understanding with the western area power energy group known as WAPA, can the Minister indicate where the negotiations are with this energy group at this moment? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I'm hopeful that over the course of the next weeks and months, I'll be able to table in this House good indications of progress and discussions with all the groups that we're negotiating with in the United States. The discussions with the Western Area Power Administration are proceeding. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, to be more specific, can the Minister indicate when he or senior Hydro officials last met with senior persons of this group? HON. W PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I believe there was a meeting of senior officials within the last month, but I'll certainly take that as notice and bring back the specific information for the member.

MondaJ, a April, 1885 Educati on in Manitoba - Quality of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On many occasions, the Minister of Education has stated unequivocally that the public school system is providing an excellent level of quality of education to Manitoba students. Since the last time I've asked the Minister this question, Mr. Speaker, I'm wondering if she could indicate or provide provincewide factual data or results that quantify or qualify her statement and her claim. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure if I even attempted to answer that question in question period, the members opposite would be starting to complain within about 30 seconds, because if we started to list all of the things that are good indicators of quality of education, the list would be very long. · I suggest we will be covering these and very glad to talk about them in detail during our Estimates. Education in Manitoba - departmenta l exams MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, the Minister on many occasions has stated her total opposition to the reinstitution of provincewide departmental exams .

The Throne Speech Debate, however, made reference to enhancing assessment. Can the Minister indicate whether the government has changed their minds on this issue, ·whether they will be instituting departmental exams or, if not, what is meant by the word "assessment"? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Spea ker, the word "assessment" means the assessment of students in the education system both at the local and the provincial level. We presently have a two-tier system that we share with the school boards where the school boards carry out the role they can best carry out.

What we will be doing is talking about improving the system, making some improvements on the system that we have presently and talking a little bit more publicly about what it is that we are doing at both levels that will have the parents understand how their children are doing . Education in Manitoba - "The Manitoba Educati on System" repor t MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Joseph Masek prepared an independent report and the title is "The Manitoba Education System" and its current impact. All members of this House, I believe, were provided a copy of this report this morning.

I would ask the Minister, was a meeting with her requested by Mr. Masek and has the Minister provided him with an opportunity to meet with her prior to the releasing of this report? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I did not meet with the gentleman named, but I believe he met with members of my department and uh . . . MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'd be interested to know what the "and uh" led to, but maybe the Minister will provide us with some further details . 613 Mr.

Speaker, the report reaches a number of strong conclusions, one of which is on Page 107 that Grade 6 Physics within Manitoba curriculum covers only 38 percent of the topics covered by a corresponding curriculum within the European schools, 11 percent for Grade 7, 21 percent for Grade 8 respectively. Does the Minister still intend to support blindly the Manitoba Science curriculum in its present form? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I don't think I've supported anything blindly in the curriculum, nor have I ever said that the curriculum and the programs that we've got, as good as they are, can't do with some improvement and some change and we're constantly making that improvement and change. I would like to remind the member opposite that it was only last year, the Manitoba students going to science symposiums - the nationwide - cleaned up in the awards. I think we sent 24 students and 12 of them came home with the top awards across the country.

I also remind the member opposite that I believe I read into the record last year during Estimates, when we were talking about the science program that we have in Manitoba, that we were commanded by the Science Council of Canada for being the only one that had brought in a program with teachers in the field and science teachers involved, and that other provinces should follow our lead. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I, too, was impressed with the winnings of those three or four students. However, my greater concern is the 195,000 other students in Manitoba taking the science program. Mr.

Speaker, my final supplementary. Will the Minister undertake to have her department seriously review this report which was prepared by the parent of a student at his own cost and reproduced at his own cost? Will she have her department review this because it makes some very major serious conclusions - reaches some conclusions with respect to the curriculum in Manitoba Education - and will she report the department's finding to this House and to the people of Manitoba? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Ye s, I certainly can say that we'll look at the report with interest .

We will review it very seriously and I'm sure that there are some very good ideas . If you look at the size of the report, it's about 400 pages long. I am sure that there is some very good information and some very good ideas in there and we're willing to look at them. Sch ool of Psychiatric Nursi ng, Po rtage - Cl osure of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Community Services, Mr. Speaker.

The people of Portage la Prairie appreciate the fact that the Min ister took time to call a meeting in Portage on April 3rd, to discuss with the MDC nursing staff, the class of nursing students, the administration

Monday, 8 April, 1985 and management staff, the Chamber of Commerce of Portage, the question of the closure of the Pyschiatric School of Nursing in Portage. My question is, Mr. Speaker, why would the Min ister turn hundr eds of concerned Portage citizens away and refuse them entry to her mee ting? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker , the meeting was called in the cafeteria at the Centre to meet with staff. MR. L. HYDE: Well, Mr. Speaker, I question whether the Minister ever thought of including the people of Portage la Prairie.

My next question to the Mini ster is: is she planning a public meeting to discuss this important issue in Portage la Prairie regard ing the closing of this school? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, last week I did meet with the staff and there were some representatives from the Chamb er there. I was available afterwards to the press. I undertook to review the questions that they had raised and reviewed the plan. To date, the original plan holds up but there are some details within in terms of phasing and the curricular mix which we are looking at co-operatively with the psych nurses.

When that examination is complete, I'll be available to discuss it and report to the House. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Speaker, from the answer that the Mini ster gave me, it appeared to me that she's not ready and willing to face the people of Portage la Prairie in regard to this imp ortant issue. My question, Mr. Speaker, is before she makes her final decision, will she meet in a public meeting with the people of Portage la Prairie? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, we'll review whether that is the most effective way to deliver the decision we've arrived at.

Meanwhile, I am accessi ble to people who wish to come and see me or who wish to submit their concerns in writing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Min ister of Community Services. Could the Min ister ind icate whether on Wednesda y, prior to her meeting with the staff of the school at Portage la Prairie that she met with members of the New Democratic Party Association from Portage la Prairie to discuss the closing of the school? MR. SPEAKER: Oral Questions. The Hono urable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, perchance the Minister didn't hear my question. I'd repeat it for her if she didn't hear the question. Did the Min ister, prior to meeting with staff at the School of Psychiatric Nursing at Portage la Prairie, meet with members of the New Democratic Party Association from Portage la Prairie? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I'd be a funny politician if I wasn't able and willing to meet with members of the party all over the province. 614 MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, it is a very interesting scenario that the Mini ster will meet with New Democratic Party mem bers, but refuse to meet with the public in Portage la Prairie. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minis ter, in view of the fact that she would not meet with and take advice from Dr. Glen Lowther, her ch ief medical advisor for the Department of Commun ity Services, can the Minis ter indic ate whether, basis the meeting with the New Democratic Party Association in Portage la Prairie, that the advice they gave her caused her to rethink the closing of the Portage Psychiatric School of Nursing? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, there seems to be so much innuendo in the question asked that what I would like to say to the member opposite is that the person he has named is a medical consultant on individual cases, that the consultation process on the issue was carried out with the Admi nistrator and Director, School of Nursing from Brandon, the Chief Executive Officer, Director School of Nursing, Director of Nursing and Personnel Director from the Manitoba Development Centre, and the Chief Executive Officer, Medical Director, Director of Nursing Education, and Senior Nursing Adminis trative Officer from Selkirk Mental Health Centre, the people in the respective positions who, I think, are the ones to be consulted on such a program move.

MR. D. ORCHARD: I am fully aware of the names of the people who met and formulated the report which, I might say, Mr. Speaker, contained grave warnings to the Minis ter about the closing of the school. Mr. Speaker, my question quite simply to the Mini ster is, did her meeting with members of the New Democratic Party organization from Portage influence her more than expert advice from her department on delaying and reviewing the closure at Portage? She did not answer that question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, when I met with the staff in Portage la Prairie, I reviewed the history of the issue, the fiscal pressures that are on the government and the very difficult choices we must make to manage the affairs of the department and the government as efficiently as we can to meet those needs, many of which are unmet as yet in the commun ity, and to put every bit as much pressure on any government to fund them as the people in Portage are putting to retain something which, admittedly, they're very devoted to and whose devotion I cer tainl y unde rstood and appreciated the night I was there.

I engaged in dialogue with them; I listened to them extremely carefully to see if there were any elements in their presentation which I had not been fully cognizant of before and, as I said the next day in the House, although the substantial framework of our decision still stands, there are some subsidia ry points having to do with phasing and some of the curricular questions which I have undertaken to work with jointly with the psych nurses in developing and I will do that.

Mondey, 8 April, 1885 In due course, when there is a final decision whether to speed up, maintain or slow down the pace of implementations we have determined, then I will report that to the House. If anything comes to light in the course of the discussions which calls into question any of the assumptions we were operating on before, as we've done before, Mr.

Speaker, in the department when those situations have risen, we've raised that issue and been willing to reconsider; but I empha size that to date the basic outline, the-basic assumptions of the decision stand and what we are now working on is the impl ementation with the people that we feel are mo.st vitally affected. · The people in Portage la Prairie, as I say, I would welcome input from them. I have received a great deal to date and I appreciate that and will be taking it into consideration as we develop the program. MR. SPEA KER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opp osition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, my question for the Minister of Community Services and Corrections is, in view of the fact that after her meeting she said there would be further consultation, in view of the fact that the head of the Psychiatric Nurses Association, Annette Osted, is quoted as saying that the decision to clos e the school was made "without any kind of proper consultation." Why wasn't the consultation done before the decision was made, not after? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speak er, there was some consultation which I gather the Psychiatric Nurses Association thought of as not official consultation, prior to the annou ncement.

However, their understanding of their role, because of their act that supports their association, is that they had control over the whole deliv ery of training for psych nurses and to them that meant the determination as to location of schools, etc. Reading the act from our perspective, we bel ieve that they have input on the components of the curriculum that have to do with the training and the registration of psych nurses and consultation on those elements is proceeding. Mr.

Speaker, we also dis covered, in the process of talking with them, that not all the psych nurses view the two-year training and the resulting certification in quite the same way and that is one of the things which we want to get down to and see whether the generic training of psych nursing is equally applicable in all the areas where it's currently operating. Since the division of Health and Community Services, the mental retardation part of the psych nurse training has operated somewhat separately from the health components and those are the issues that we are working with.

Community Services has not been generally in the area of direct training. There are other departments of government that do the training and we bel ieve that the rationalization of the training of psych nurses is a move that should be reviewed very carefully. At the moment the information we have would in dicate that it is a feasible move. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, to the same Min ister. My question hasn't to do with the legalistic requirements 615 of consultation. it's evident that the Min ister did not have answers to the question. it's evident that the people affected by the decision were not consulted.

Why didn't this process of consul tation take place before the decision, not after? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Can I remind members that the purpose of question period is to gain in formation and not to make arguments. Schwartz, Batty - Settlement re wrongful dismissal MR. SPEA KER: The Ho nourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Community Services.

The lawyer for Betty Schwartz, the former Executive Director of Chi ldr en 's Aid Society - who was fir ed by this government - has ind icated publicly that a settlement has now been arrived at with his client. I would ask the Minister to inform the House of the total amount of the settlement and the terms of the settlement and how much it will cost the taxpayers of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the person named was an employee of the CAS Winnip eg and I think they are the people who should be approached for any comment on the settlement.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, could the Minis ter not confirm that the taxpayers of Manitoba, through her department, will be paying this settlement to Betty Schwartz? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I repeat, that the obli gation for delivering services and handling the empl oyee relationships lies with the CAS Winnip eg, and they are the appropriate body. They are inc orpor ated with the respons ibili ty for handling those arrangements and they're the people who should be asked the question. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I'd ask the Minis ter this. Does she know the total amount of the settlement and the terms of the settlement? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The knowledge of a Mini ster is not a suitable topic for question period.

Monday, 8 April, 1985 Morgentaler Clinic - Additional charges MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOE RN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Attorney-General in regard to Dr. Morgentaler and the courts and his clinic. Will the laying of additional charges by the Crown deter or prevent Dr. Morgentaler from performing abortions in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I bel ieve the honourable member knows that he should not ask for opinions, but information. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps I could rephrase that question and ask the Attorney-General whether he has, in fact, instructed his Crown Attorneys to lay additional charges against Dr. Morgentaler? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-GeneraL HON. R. PENNER: The honourable member usually seems to do very little with his time except read newspapers. I thought he would have read that cha rges were laid. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would also like to ask the Attorney-General in regard to Judge Kroft's remarks that conditions of bail should have been set that would have precluded Dr.

Morgentaler from continuing to perform abortions, I'd like to ask him whether he has ruled out the possibility of appealing a two-year-old ruling that denied the Crown that possibility? HON. R. PENNER: The appeal period for rulings of that kind expires in 30 days. So it expired, roughly speak ingly , two years and some bit ago. Yes, on those grounds, I've ruled out the possi bility of appeal ing that decision. MR. R. DOERN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, holding aside the incomp etence of the Attorney-General in not laying those charges, I'd like to ask the Attorney-General whether he can then anew or afresh lay out conditions that would preclude Dr. Morgentaler from performing abortions in Manitoba as a condition of bail? HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I have no such power. That is a matter for the courts. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, just following along the questions from the Member for Elmwood. Mr. Justice Kroft in his decision involving the application for an injunction against Dr.

Morgentaler ind icated that the conditions of bail are, however, always subject to review on the motion of the Crown. What is more, the Attorney-General may have an early occasion to consider the matter of in terim judi cial release in connection with newly-laid charges. He can, if he then chooses, request and according to his discre tion, order stringent restrictions on Dr. Morgentaler's activities. Is the Attorney-G eneral or his Crown Attorneys considering reviewing and requesting some stringent 616 restrictions on Dr. Morgentaler's activities when he next appears in court on the new charges? HON. R.

PENNER: Mr. Speaker, in the first instance, there's been a ruling by an experienced trial court judge setting out reasons why, in the view of that trial court judge, such a bail order would be ina ppropriate. I see no reason why I should go judge shopping and should the opportunity arise, go from judge to judge to judge until I find some judge with a contrary opinion. ThaJ is not the way I see the law operating fairly and evenly.

Secondly, it's all hypotheticaL The fact of the matter is that there is now an injunc tion that will operate at least until the 17 th of April or thereabouts, the 18th, pursuant to which the clinic is not open. I don't want to deal with hypotheticals in this matter. lt's a sensitive matter. Members continue to try to exploit it I won't MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the injunction that is in effect is with respect to practising medicine and, I understand, is subject to a further review in the courts.

Would the Attorney-General or his department not consider the fact that at least two new charges have been laid as an opportunity to review the conditions of bail and seek some restriction on Dr. Morgentaler's future activities? HON. R. PENNER: As I said a few moments ago, Mr. Speaker, that matter is hypothetical at the moment Policing costs change - Town of Emerson MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs re garding the Town of Emerson.

In ·view of the statements made by the Minister over the weekend which border on blackmail that he will not approve the budget of the Town of Emerson if they do not include over $20,000 for policing services in that communi ty, can the Minis ter indic ate whether he will dictate the figure that the Town of Emerson is going to have to include in their budget for policing services? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

The Honourable Member for Emerson in his question suggests that a Minis ter of the Crown has engaged in activity which mi ght be termed as crimi naL The honourable member knows he should not do such a thing. The Honourable Minister of Muni cipal Affairs. A MEMBER: Put that on the record. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, first of all, I categorically reject the assumption contained in the member's question with regard to his description of our request that the Town of Emerson obey the laws of the Province of Manitoba. To suggest that is in any way a repre hensible action, Mr.

Speaker, is to suggest that the member wishes the Town of Emerson should not obey the law. I don't think the member would say

Monct.� 8 April, 1185 that. I don't think he would want to advise one of his constituent municipalities that they should disobey the laws of this province. If he is saying that, I wish he'd put that on the record. Mr. Speaker, I think what the member forgets, and I think the House should be reminded, is that the Town of Emerson was told two years ago and one year ago the same thing they're being told this year. That is that they should provide for the costs of providing policing for the citizens of their town. Two years ago, that requirement was waived.

Last year, because it had not been contemplated in their budget and because of the concern about the census figures, the Attorney-General waived the requirement that they pay for a policing contract for one additional year. That correspondence clearly indicated that obligation would ensue this year. They have been aware of that for a full year. They're also aware, I trust, Mr. Speaker, that under the revised Police Grants Program provided by my department, the grant to offset that cost for the Town of Emerson will be rising this year.

Every municipality has an obligation, for example, to levy for the equalized assessment for school division purposes, to provide for policing, if they choose not to get that policing from the RCMP under contract with the Attorney-General's Department, they may provide that on their own. I only insist that municipalities who are obliged to provide for policing make that provision. it's up to them to decide how to meet the policing requirements of their municipality. That is entirely within their jurisdiction, but the law says they must make provision. We intend to ask all municipalities to obey that law.

I think it would be unfair to let one of 201 municipalities break the laws of the Province of Manitoba. MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the same Minister then, Mr. Speaker, is the Minister going to allow the Emerson Council to decide how much money they're going to be spending on policing services? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, as I said in my answer to the member's first question, the municipal council is obliged under The Municipal Act to provide for police protection for their citizens. lt is up to that municipal council to determine what form that police protection will take.

Some municipalities constitute their own police forces to provide that service. Others contract with the RCMP. That's a decision the municipal council makes in accordance with certain general guidelines which they receive from the Attorney-General's Department with regard to the provision of that service. I don't know the details of those guidelines or how much latitude is provided but, certainly, that decision is the local council's within certain guidelines about how and what levels of police protection must be provided.

I can tell the honourable member that generally most municipalities find a contract with the RCMP to be a more cost-efficient way of providing that service than engaging their own force. That's not always the case, but that's generally the case. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my next question is to the Attorney-General regarding the same situation.

Can the Attorney-General indicate whether the forms 617 related to the signing of an agreement with the RCMP, whether these forms have been sent to the Town of Emerson so that they can peruse what the agreement would be based on the time element that is involved with the budget approvals? I'm just wondering whether the Minister can indicate whether that has happened or the Attorney-General? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: I'll take that as notice, Mr. Speaker, and provide the member and the House with that information tomorrow.

I believe that the extension contracts are the same other than the amount which varies from year to year because each year in accordance with the 10-year contract that we have with the RCMP, the provincial share increases and accordingly the costs that would have to be paid as a proportion of the actual cost by the towns and villages which make use of the service increases by about a percent a year, but subject to that special additional information, the extension agreement is the same as the year before, but nevertheless I will check with the Director of Police Services to make sure that the town is in possession of the most current information.

Policing costs change - rural municipalities MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Municipal Services. I would like to ask the Minister if the program for policing costs to the various municipalities has been changed this coming year? - (Interjection) - I would like to ask the Minister if the program and the cost for police services has been changed for this coming year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the reason I hesitated was, I wasn't clear on whether the member was asking me whether or not the program for the provision of police services has changed for the coming year, or if he was referring to the grants program, because the provision of services under extension contracts is under the jurisdiction of the Attorney General; he just answered a question for the Member for Emerson in that regard. If the member is asking about the grants program, I would be pleased to advise him about that program. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Speaker, it's the grants program, and I also am interested in the levies that are being charged by his department. HON. A. ANSTET T: I'm quite pleased to advise the member that after a period in excess of a year of consultation with the two municipal associations and after the establishment of a ministerial advisory committee consisting of representatives of those two associations, I received a unanimous report with

Mond•y, 8 April, 1985 recommendations last November, which was circulated to all members of the Assembly and to all member organizations of the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities and the Union of Manitoba Municipalities. After some discussion, Mr.

Speaker, of the contents of that report, and after receiving a high level of endorsation of the recommendations, I modified that proposal to reduce the recommended levy from one mill to one-half mill out of respect for the difficult circumstances in many of the predominantly rural Union of Manitoba Municipalities RM members and that program was announced to all municipalities outside the City of Winnipeg last week. The grant program now will consist of grants in excess of $600,000 a year, up from $1 80,000 last year.

The bulk of the increase will come from the half mill levy, which will help offset the costs of policing, particularly for municipalities with over 1,5 00 population; and also for those with a population of between 750 and 1, 500.

The cost of the half mill levy this year to the rural municipalities will be slightly more than offset by the increase in the provincial-municipal tax sharing grants, which were announced about two weeks ago, so overall the program that I've announced is a modification of a unanimous recommendation from the ministerial committee to reduce the actual amount of the levy, while at the same time offering a very dramatic increaSe to towns and cities of over 1, 500 population in their grant support to help offset their policing costs.

I'm pleased the honourable member asked the question; if he wishes further details, I'd be pleased to provide them. MR. H. GRAHAM: A final supplementary to the Honourable Attorney-General. Will it then be the case that communities in Manitoba that have had police service provided to them by the province for over 100 years will now have to pay a portion of the costs of that police service? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: I regret that the member, who has been a member of this House far longer than I, hasn't at least ascertained from the answer of the Minicipal Affairs the exact arrangement.

The arrangement is that given the obligation under The Municipal Act for towns and villages - and that's all I'm dealing with at the moment - to provide police services where their population exceeds 750, - and that's town and village police services, we're not talking about rural services which are provided throughout the province by the RCMP by rural detachments - they have an option and they still have that option, they can either hire their own police person or hire the RCMP through what is called an extension contract. That obligation remains, and the way of fulfilling that obligation remains.

The question arises of payment for those services . They have always, in terms of populations of 750 or more, had to pay for those services, either directly or indirectly through the extension contracts, and have received a grant in aid. The program announced by the Minister of Municipal Affairs is just intended to equalize the burden of those kinds of police costs and take them off as we always 618 intended with the program of grants in aid, take them off substantia lly, as substantially as we can, the backs of town and village ratepayers. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expir ed.

NON-POLI TIC A L STATEMEN T MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like leave of the House to make a non-political statement. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I'll try and make it brief, however, I think it's extremely important that on behalf of the farm community in our constituences that we thank the Federal Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board for the large injection of cash out of the Western Grain Stabilization Payment which was announced today, Mr.

Speaker, of some $73 million to Manitoba farmers, and I think it's important to make recognition of . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Arthur has been in this House long enough to know the usual form of non political statements. He should not vary that. CO MMIT TEE CH ANG ES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Aiel. MRS. D. DODICK: Mr.

Speaker, I have a committee change on Rules of the House: the Member for Thompson substituting for lnkster; the Member for Wolseley substituting for the Member for Burrows; the Member for Fort Rouge substituting for the Member for St. James. ORDE RS OF TH E DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, it's my intention to move the motion for the House to resolve itself into Committee of Supply, but before I do, I wish to advise members that the committee in Room 255 will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Trans portation, and the committee staying here in the Chamber will be dealing with the Estimates of the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Health, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted by Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the

Monday, I April, 1185 Sup ply to be granted to He r Ma jesty with the Honourable Member lor River East in the Chair for the Department of Health and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Highways. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANS PORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The commi ttee will come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of High ways and Transport ation. We shall begin with a statement from the Honourable Minis ter responsible for the department. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do have copies of this statement that the members may wish to have. Before I start with the statement, I want to extend my specific and particular appreciation to my staff in the Department of Highways and Transportation.

I think that they have provided excellent support over the two years I have been in the department, and I want to especially mention the Deputy Min ister who has done a great deal of work, specifically with the reorganization of the department that I will be mentioning later on; all the Assistant Deputy Min isters under the new organ ization. And particularly, I want to mention Jack Peacoc k, who is in charge of Engineering and Technical Services and who has been suffering from a serious illness over the last while.

We want to send him all of our best wishes with regard to that ill ness and hope that he will be able to overcome it. I also want to mention Clayton Jackson who is the construction engineer and who is retiring at the end of April this year, and extend special wishes to him for a long retirement; and John Duerksen, the senior maintenance engineer with the department, who is also retiring at the end of April of this year, and thank them for their many years of dedica ted service to the department.

I want to welcome, on behalf of all members, our new Registrar of Motor Vehicles, Dan Coyle, who was formerly a Director of Admin istration with Government Services, who was with the department for less than six months, I believe, and who is doing an excellent job there. The Department of Highways and Transportation Estima tes reflect and are consis tent with overall government initiatives and objectives.

We have over the past year. carefully examined our expenditur es and service del ivery, bearing in mind that we did not want to - if we were going to be reducing in any areas - lay off people or decrease service. We want to be frugal with our increases, to produce greater efficiency in our opera tions, and to effect the optimum utilization of staff. This year our total Budget is up some $4.5 million.

This increase is largely accounted for by the $1. 7 million rise in our Maintenance Budget and a $2 million increase in our Construction Budget. lt is im portant to note that the Department of Hi ghways and Tra ns portation has an in ternal 619 reorganiza tion. There are now six divisions within the department, whose head now reports dir ectly to the Deputy Minister.

This reorganization is in response to a need to provide greater opportunity for improving pol icy development and dir ection within the depar tment, add ressing department-wide is sues, impr oving li nes of commun ication and autho rity, and enhancing the opportun ities for career devel opment within the department. This reorganization of reporting procedures is found in our Budget Estimates and I'm sure that you will notice a change there from previous years.

The Budg et which you will be receiving provides, for the first time, a dir ect relationship between the organization and function of the department and the related main and sub appropriations and this wasn't always the case in previous years with regard to the function and the appropriation. I think it will make it more understandable when considering the Estimates this year.

I will subsequently be distributing a package of inf ormation which will provide you with some background information on the comparison of the former ap propriation structure and the new appropriation structure, reflecting the reorganization that has taken place. I will be pleased to review this with you before we go into the individual appropriation if you would desire that at that particular time. Some of the highlights in our Estimates that you will find, first of all, the Air-Ambu lance Program, which we are very pleased to have included in our Estimates this year.

The Department of High ways and Transportation is imp lementing this service in conjunction with the Health Services Commission and it will be providing a new air-ambul ance service to Manitoba. The annual air service costs for this program which will begin this summer are estimated to be just over a million dollars and these costs will all be recoverable from the Manitoba Health Services Commission, as reflected in the Estimates package.

With regard to the transportation of the mobility disadv antaged in rural Manitoba, we are pleased that this program is cont inuing to expand un der our government. lt is, I believe, an excellent program and is servicing a vast number of rural citizens across Manitoba. lt provides start-up and operating grants for rural communities that wish to operate a handi-van in those communiti es to service the elderly and the mobility disadvantaged. Just recently, under a cost-sharing agreement with the Federal Government, we were able to supply $20,000 to 12 Manitoba commun ities to purchase handi vans.

I am very pleased that we were able to reach this agreement with the Federal Government so quickly. lt is an example, I think, of a co-operative approach. As members may be aware, our program provides for $10 ,000 Capital grants for communi ties where they're wishing to purchase a handi-van to offer the service in their commun ity.

We were able to get the Federal Government to match that figure, so the $20,000 now is mu ch mo re re al istic and made it possi ble for communi ties that would otherwise not have been able to afford to purchase the bus, that they are now able to do so anu to begin offering the service much sooner than they would otherwise have been able to. So now there are presently 22 communities participating in the

Monday, I April, 1985 program and three more are expected to join in the new fiscal year. I want to mention as well the matter of parking for physically handicapped. As part of our government's continuing commitment to providing necessary services to the mobility disadvantaged, my department will be offering in the very near future parking decals to physically handicapped people who own and operate their own vehicles. This will supplement the placard that they've also had for the last number of years.

The decals, which display the internation symbol of access and the Manitoba Provincial logo, do not confer special benefits on physically handicapped people, but they identify those persons for any special facilities that may be offered in public and private parking places when they're operating their own vehicles. Insofar as the task force to review motor carrier regulations, this was established in December, 1982, and published its final report and recommendations last September. As indicated in the Throne Speech, a White Paper outlining the government's intentions will be tabled shortly.

Subsequently, it will be my plan to bring forward amendments to the appropriate sections of The Highway Traffic Act, reflecting the contents of the White Paper. To a certain degree, we may phase in some of those recommendations and, of course, that will be reflected in the White Paper. We have also just recently signed a Memorandum of Understanding with Canada and other provinces dealing with the reform of trucking regulation for extra provincial trucking, covering a number of areas in which there was agreement at the federal-provincial level right across this country.

As I mentioned earlier, our Construction and Maintenance Programs were both increased by about $2 million each this year. Of course, times are difficult, economically, in terms of finding additional dollars, but the Department of Highways and Transportation is taking every initiative to find ways to make the dollars go further. Of course, the Members of the Opposition would say that, whatever department they were dealing with, our priorities are not what they should be if they're not increasing.

However, we have to find those dollars and we were able to in this particular case and I'm very pleased that we were able to expand our construction program this year. lt will be our plan to direct a greater effort toward the rehabilitation of our existing infrastructure instead of adding to it by new construction, wherever possible. In an effort to obtain the most advantageous bids in our construction program, we have, over the past two years, significantly increased the size of our pre advertised program.

Of course, this has given benefits to the contractors. lt allows them to plan for the work they've been awarded through the winter months. They can undertake such activities as resource allocation within their company, equipment maintenance and preliminary activities, including mobilization. Last fall, we pre-advertised 24 major highway construction projects worth approximately $29 million. The Department of Highways and Transportation is in the process of classifying all the roadways in the province by function in order to provide uniform design standards to facilities of equal importance.

I think this will be a major development, in terms of providing standards for roads that survey an equal function, roads that are strategically important in areas of the province being upgraded to higher standards, than those that are not of the same importance.

Of course, rationalization will enable us to priorize the dollars in the proper way and make sure that dollars go further with regard to construction of those roads because they won't all be upgraded to the same standard as they are at the present time; although certain roads that are of strategic importance will receive greater attention and upgrading than under the present system. So there will be some balance there, but we believe that will assist in enabling us to have our dollars stretch further.

Of course, a three-year plan for highway rehabilitation and construction purposes will serve as a guide for subsequent construction programs and that is being developed as well. 620 We've also maintained our efforts to have the Federal Government participate in the funding of major inter provincial routes with the unanimous agreement of all provinces at the Council of Ministers Meeting in Montreal last fall. We received again a discussion with the Federal Minister, present in Ottawa in February, an endorsation of that request.

The Federal Minister Is, of course, having to priorize his dollars as well and we have sent a very clear message - I think from all provinces - that we feel the Federal Government has a responsibility with regard to interprovincial routes, as well as it applies to additional spending that municipalities and provinces have to undertake because of rail line abandonment. And as members may know, that responsibility has increased dramatically In the last number of years because of rail line abandonments and greater trucking distances and has cost the province and the municipalities a great deal of money.

We'd like to see that the Federal Government recognizes their responsibility in this area. Under the sub-agreements that we signed, we provided for a joint provincial-federal study. Members opposite may be aware that there was a study done by the department some time ago, which identified approximately $52 million in additional costs for the province because of rail line abandonment, however we're going to update that study and have it done with both provincial and federal input, so that the results cannot be disputed.

We feel that that is the first step to having the railways and the Federal Government exercise their responsibility with regard to the provision of alternative transportation where they are abandoning rail lines across this province. Insofar as safety is concerned, the Government of Manitoba is continuing its emphasis in this area. Through the Highway Traffic Board we have made significant improvements in the physical layout of pedestrian corridors.

In addition to this, a major effort will be made under the ALIVE Program to inform pedestrians and drivers of their responsibilities with regard to pedestrian corridors. The new layout for pedestrian corridors is beginning to take effect in the City of Winnipeg and in those pedestrian corridors that are under the responsibility of the Department of Highways and Transportation. We feel with the dual-flashing, alternately-flashing amber lights, that there will be an improved visibility that will be activated by the pedestrian. There would be an

Monday, a April, 1115 impro vement with regard to safety - a significant im provement with regard to safety - at pedestrian corrid ors. We ma y als o in trod uce some limi ted amendments that may be necessary to The Highway Traffic Act to provide further addr essing of the safety concerns at pedestrian corridors. As well, I might want to mention the Safe Rider Program that was introduced for novice motorcyclists to supplement other safety initiatives with regard to motor cyclists. As you know with regard to the in troduction of helmets, there was a request by motorcyclists to have a safety course.

A six-hour classroom cou rse has been adopted and will be deliv ered by the Manitoba Safety Council, and is already being delivered. 1t teaches the basic elements of motorcycling, including the explanation of motorcycle controls, general traffic rules, insurance coverage and survival techniques on the highway. My department has supplied a start-up grant to the Safety Council of $30,000 and in addition to that a $15,000 operating grant to assist in the carrying out of that program.

As well, the mand ate of the Traffic Safety Committee has been expanded to address a variety of safety issues, both as it concerns the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation and the Hig hways Depart ment . This comm ittee is chaired by John Wylie of the M PlC, he's the safety manager .

We've also introduced the unique trial - and it is unique, it's the first in Cana da - of the Videotex Program that will give faster and more accurate information on road conditions. lt was introduced over part of this past winter and we believe it is successful in providing upda ted information to the public on road conditions. lt is part" of the Manitoba Telidon project and it is the first road information program of its kind in Canada. We have installed a vide otex terminal in the road information office in Winni peg as well as in Carman, Portage la Prairie, Brandon and Dauphin offices.

The depar tment's district offices supply road condition information by telephone to the Winnip eg office and this information is entered into a central videotex terminal. lt is then possible to use the four pilot district terminals to answer public enquir ies for any area of the province more efficiently and accurately. Instead of having to phone each of those areas of the province, all of the information is there and is contained in the terminal and can be provided immedia tely to the public when they enquir e. We have enormous numb ers of enquir ies from the public as members will be aware.

I think, during the heavy winter conditions, there are sometimes as many as 900 enquir ies a day. In co-operation with the MTS and several cable companies, this road information is being provided for a trial period, at no cost, to evaluate the market interest on cable channels in Portage la Prairie, Brandon, Thompson, and Winnipeg. We've made a number of im provements to our signage program this past year. There are a number of additional thrusts in the signage area dir ected and improving and enhancing information to the travelling public and, in particular, the tourist using our highway system.

New programs such as one which supplies signage to mark the location of historical sites and museums, and another identifying the call letters/frequency of local radio stations have been introduced. We'll have lots 621 of time to get at the construction program in a few minutes, for the benefit of honourable members. I believe that signage is a very important area and we have made significant impr ovements there. We are participating in a Community Identification Highw ay Signa ge Program aimed at improving the identification of traveller services and facilities in 65 Manitoba communi ties this year.

This program for $1 35,000, is funded by the Federal and Provincial Governments under the Destination Mani toba Program, and also by the participating communi ties. lt provides for the ins tallation of community service signs on designated tourist routes by the Manitoba Hig hways Department. We will be expanding, hopefully, that program in subsequent years to include all areas of the province, but we hope this initial program will stimulate the tourism indus try by making motorists more aware of services available in commun ities throughout the provinc e and thereby assist in stimulating rural economies.

In addition, in co-operation with the RCMP and rural crime watch associations, the Department of High ways and Transportation has developed a uniform rural crime watch sign to be used throughout the province. This was also done in consultation with the Department of Municipal Affairs. I think it shows the flexible approach that we're taking with regard to the imp rovement and introduction of our signage programs. These rural crime watch signs will be posted in conspicuous areas and will warn potential thieves that a rural crime watch is in operation in that particular area.

The department will produce and install these signs when requested by rural crime watch associations through the local municip ality. The cost of the material for the sign production will be funded by the Department of Municipal Affairs. lt involves the co-operation of two departments as well as the muni cipalities. I think it's an excellent in itiative and one that I had been asked about in a numb er of areas of this province and one we responded to very quick ly. Manitobans should also be aware that the new highway route marker signs will be appearing as the present route markers wear out.

This attractive new route marker bears Manitoba's new stylized buffalo symbol and the word "Manitoba" appears in tartan green on the signs. This year our efforts will be focused on the policy area on dev eloping further policies on grain transportation issues such as variable grain rates which we are very concerned about. Members may be aware that the recent applications in Northern Saskatchewan were withdrawn by CN, however, that is only the beginning and we will be making strong representation in that area to avoid the potential introduction of variable grain rates.

Also the review of The Western Grain Transportation Act is a matter of concern to us, and of course the whole area of rail line abandonment and, of course, they're all very much in terconnected, as members will kn ow. We are also continuing our work on the two sub agreements on transportation and Churchill signed in April of ;dst year with the Federal Government. Members may be aware that there was some $2 13 mill ion al located for these two sub-agreements and work is

Monday, 8 April, 1985 continuing with the new Federal Government on many of the initiatives under these sub-agreements. Some of the major studies and initiatives that are under way are the development of the lightweight rail car for manufacture in Transcona, which will service the Churchill line in the future and many other branch lines. lt has tremendous market potential that we are exploring as well under the sub-agreements. Research has also taken place on the railway roadbed stabilization in permafrost areas, to follow up on initial research that was done.

Improvements for the Port of Churchill in the area of dredging, a new tugboat and the dust control that was needed in that area as well. And of course we're looking at the extension of the season at the Port of Churchill as well, and to determine exactly what the economic impact of extending the season by approximately 40 days would have on the potential for other commodities and the viability, generally, of the Port of Churchill. One other one that is being worked on under the sub-agreements is the Transportation Institute at the University of Manitoba.

So we are actively following up on our intiatives on the Port of Churchill, meeting with other countries, customers. We've been informed by the Wheat Board that the customer countries that purchase our grain are the ones that determine what port it's shipped from, and we're actively pursuing markets on that basis. We think that this is somewhat of a breakthrough in that the countries can specify directly to the Wheat Board where they want to purchase their grain and that leaves us with some potential for expansion at the Port of Churchill.

We will be following that up as well as the season extension as I mentioned earlier. I think that is enough information in terms of my opening statement. I want to give the members an opportunity - the critic, the Member for Minnedosa - perhaps to respond in some way if he wishes, and then we will attempt to deal with the staffing changes. the reorganization of the department, if the members wish.

I would hope that the construction program could perhaps be focused under the Planning and Design Area, which is traditional for a discussion of specific individual projects under the construction program, as it has been in the past. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair now calls upon the main opposition leading critic to make his reply if he so wishes. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. Firstly, we thank the Minister for the statement that he has given to us today.

There is little in there to warm the hearts of those that were looking for some construction projects and some better maintenance programs this year, but we'll be getting into some more of that a little later. There is a great lot of rhetoric in there about signs and policies and various other programs that I don't want to label them as Mickey Mouse projects, Mr. Chairman, but they're projects that I think are worthwhile. They're ongoing and they aren't costing any dollars. Naturally that's helpful to the government.

But I would also pay my compliments and those of the other members of my party to the staff members, those that are retiring and those that are not in good 622 health and we wish them well, of course. Those that are retiring, Mr. Chairman, we hope that they're not bailing out from a sinking ship, that they're taking retirement for that much-deserved rest that they have earned so well over the years. So, Mr.

Chairman, we do thank the Minister for his opening statement, although it's like the program that we have received when we received the Estimates and the program today that there was so little in it this year that I don't know whether there's enough to prolong debate on the Estimates very long this year, other than to express our strong disappointment, of course, in the downward trend that's been evident the past three years in the Highways Budget. The Department of Highways, I think, has again been ignored this year. Those on this side of the House, Mr.

Chairman, are disappointed and shocked that more attention hasn't been paid to this important department, because we do consider the Department of Highways - especially the rural members such as the rural area that I represent - to be an extremely important area to all Manitobans and this includes the ordinary Manitobans that this government claims is their special constituency and they love to clasp the ordinary Manitoban to their breasts. This program affects them as much as anyone, if not more than anyone. But we realize, Mr.

Chairman, that the government considers the Highways and Transportation portfolio a junior one, but it's important to all of the people of Manitoba. 1 think it deserves better treatment, especially from a caring government - one of their boasts is - that they care for the ordinary working people and highways are extremely important to those people. Mr.

Chairman, the increases that we've seen in the Highways Budget this year, it's not even keeping up with inflation, let alone providing any funds to improve the system or to provide necessary and very badly needed construction work. lt's self-evident that you can't band-aid a hemorrhage and that's what 's happening in our highway system. lt's deteriorating at a rapid pace and it has to be shored up and it has to be shored up quickly before we are faced with just an enormous, if not insurmountable task. Mr.

Chairman, this year in the statement of revenues that we received, in the Estimates of 1985, we were taking $100,4 00,000 in gas tax. This year we're going to collect $1 15 .4 million which is up $15 million. In the motive fuel tax last year, $47.5 million; this year $56.7 million, up $9.2 million. That's an increase of $24,000,200.00. Now under the Budget that the Minister has brought down, Operating last year was $94,905,600; this year it's $96,930,000; it's up $2,024, 000.00. Capital of $101 ,730,200 and this year $10 4,125,000; it's up $2.395 million. So, we've got a total increase this year, Mr.

Chairman, of $4.4 million, so give or take some change. So, we have a 2 million increase for Operating and a 2.3 million increase in Capital spending. Now, Mr. Chairman, of the road tax increases of $24.2 million, almost $20 million of that tax is being siphoned off. lt's going into other uses. Mr. Minis ter, we don't know where it's going. We'd like to know. Is it going into the Jobs Fund? Are we going to see it crop up later with a big press release, "The government has spent another $20 million on road construction." That'll

Monday, I April, 1985 come with all the fanfare and the hoopla of a great press release, probably just about election time. Mr. Chairman, I think the people of Manitoba are on to that one. They're not going to be fooled with that one anymore. I don't like quoting the First Min ister, but it just won't wash anymore. That apparently is one of his new phrases. Mr. Chairman, I don't think the people of Manitoba want to pay a bad road tax. I don't think they mind paying their fair share of the tax, but they don't want to pay a bad road tax.

I think they're being shafted by this government by not getting their fair share of revenues that are coming out of the gas and the motive fuel tax plus the other taxes that go into the department. I don't want to bore the Com mittee with a bunch of statistical figures because I think it's self-evident what is happening in the Department of Hig hways. You know, Mr. Chairman, I don't think there's anything that creates jobs with more of a spin-off effect than a healthy and aggressive road program. That is evident in other provinces that you travel through that do have a substantial road program going on.

I think the Minister is well aware of the problems in the heavy construction indus try. They're operating at probably 50 percent of capacity. Many of them are out of business, have left business in the last few years for many reasons, the bigge st one, I suppose, being out of work, having so little work to do that they've either gone out of busine ss or they've gone bankrupt by not having enough work to do. The Minister has received a number of briefs from the heavy construction indus try and I'm sure that he's well aware of some of the problems there.

I do see some be nefit in the pretendered work - that does assist the contractors. The Minister alluded to that in his remarks and I compliment him for that because it's a program that's very very functional, it's timely, and it's taken advantage of by the operators. There's no question about that. But I think, under the system when we see our operators going out of business, the bid system suffers.

The small operators are staying in but operators of any size, if they can't receive enough work and enough contracts to bid on in Manitoba are going to be looking for work elsewhere and a number of them, I know, are looking and have looked and are successful working elsewhere and not in the Province of Manitoba where we would love to have the jobs, and that all filters down as a great benefit to the econo my. With the di smal in crease in construc tion, Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the Min ister what is going to happen to our plans to four-lane Highway 75, to finish four-laning No. 1 West to the American border?

Mr. Chairman, we have American tourists coming in here travelling on a four-lane highway till they hit the border and then travelling over potholes and a road that's just in terrible shape. I know the Minister of Tourism has been off to Min neapolis promoting our wonderful province and encouraging tourists to come here, and 1 know is being thwarted in his efforts to some degree by the road that we asked him to drive on. There has just been a federal-provincial cost-sharing agreement signed to improve tourism in the province. 1 should quote, Mr.

Chairman, just at this time from the remarks of the Minis ter of Highw ays on the second session we had. "The people of Manitoba and in deed 623 the tourists that travel through Manitoba, I am told, take good advantage of our highway system. In fact, it appears that they do about 2.8 billion vehicle mi les annually in this province. lt gives you some idea of the magnititude as to the use of our hig hway system.

Of course, that is why it's important to continue with our repair, maintenance and reconstruction programming that is designed to keep improving the highway system in the province in order to provide the public with a better and more convenient means of commuting back and forth from their workp lace to home and so on, as well as the touring public that wants to see as much of Manitoba as we have here." lt goes on and I quote, Mr. Chairman: "We must strengthen them to a standard that meets the requirements of today and in deed the future.

A dollar invested in the hig hway system today is not invested only for the day or for the year but, indeed, is expected to service the public for many, many years to come. I'm told that about 36 percent of the construction program is essentially dealing with these aims. Highways that receive paved surfaces, of course, unfortunately are not able to last forever without a lot of maintenance. Many of our hig hways are approaching 20 years since they were last surfaced and they can only be brought back to an acceptable condition by reconstruction." We unde rstand now, Mr.

Chairman, that some of the surfaces are only good for about 13 years. So, it's evident from that, Mr. Chairman, that there was at one time, a feeling in the Highways Department that we did have to concentrate on reconstruction and upgrading of our road system. There is nothing in this Budget or the remarks that the Minister has given us today that would confirm that or would ind icate that that policy is still in force.

That is disturbing to those of us on this side of the House, especially, as we've said earl ier, there's some $20 million being siphon ed out of the tax that's being generated by motive fuel taxes and the like that should be into construction and into road maintenance programs. I know the Minister's familiar with the TRIP Report that was sent to him by the heavy construction indu stry, so there's not much point in going into that. Our system is deteriorating at a faster pace than we're able to keep up with it, especially in the City of Winnip eg in their streets and sewer systems.

They don't spend massive amounts of money. In the very near future, they're going to be faced with an insurmountable task and they're faced with the same problem that the government is faced with and it's going to cost a tremendous amount of money and where's the mone y going to come from? The Minister touched in his remarks on the trucking regulations and we'll be going into that at some greater length as to what consultations have been held and just what the White Paper is going to suggest. We want to discuss some of the aspects of the Motor Vehicle Branch also, Mr. Chairman.

I know many of the members on this side are concerned and want to ask questions pertaining to their particular constituencies. I must say, on my quick glance through the Hig hways Progra:n, there is a bit of work there that we wanted done in my particul constituency 'lnd we're happy to see ti1at. I haven 't h;..c' chance to go through the program and find out jus. ""3re all of the work is being done, but I'm not going to bt so bold as to make an unfounde d - I guess I could call it a confounded - statement such

Monday, 8 April, 1985 as the Member for Ste. Rose made a few years ago about all of the work being done in Conservative constituencies. I would relate back to those years to the Member for Ste. Rose and find out how much work was done in the Member for Ste. Rose's constituency during the Conservative years, Mr. Chairman, so I won't make that blanket statement such as he made when we were on the government side of the House. The Mi nister mentioned rail line abandonments, federal funding and the road bed property and when we get to that particular

section we do want to discuss that further because what's happening to the rail line abandoned road beds appears to be up in the air; and I know there's been a change in the federal House. lt's hard to nail anybody down. Somebody said that was in the gifted agreement and the other wasn't in the gifted agreement and that property's been sold to the munic ipality and the other one hasn't and it's something that has to be nailed down, I think, Mr. Min ister, fairly soon to find out just what we're going to do with it. Maybe that's going to take some long-range plans, I don't kn ow. Mr.

Chairman, just to recap, we are extremely disappointed in the Hig hways program this year, to say the least. The Min ister will be hearing from me and some of my colleagues as we go through the Estimates section-to-section. I do hope, Mr. Chairman and Mr.

Min ister, that we may be allo wed some small bit of latitude in going through the Estimates because as you know we're dealing with two commi ttees in the House and I know some of the members who want to ask questions here are in the other commi ttee and they may not just get in in time; so with your forbearance, if that should happen, if they can't get in to ask a particular question that's important to their constituency and to their constituents, we may find some way that we might be able to accommodate them should the time

schedule get a bit off their timetables. So with that, Mr. Chairman, I'll conclude my remarks and we can start into the examination of the Estimates. I think it's customary to leave the Minister's Salary to the last item and get on to the examination of the Estimates. With that, I'll conclude my remarks. MR. CHAIRMAN: Following the reply of the opposition's main critic, the Chair now formally invit es the members of the departmental staff to kindly take their respective places. Mr. Min ister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, while the staff is coming up, I just wanted to comment on a couple of things if I could.

The honourable member had mention ed . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Perhaps we will discuss it under the aegis of 1. (b )(1) , the Minister's Sala ry, that will be a general di scussion of the issues. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to focus on his request to have the discussion on Highways construction projects being done somewhat with a flexible approach. I agree with that. However, I think it's imp ortant that we have the appropriate staff here and that's why I suggested the ma jor ity of that 624 discussion be done under the Planning and Design

Section No. 3 of the Estimates or under Expenditures Related to Capital at the end on Page 97, No. 7 of the Estimates; and that would assist me in having the appropriate staff here at that time. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)( 1) . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I also wanted to just correct a couple of statements that were made for the record from the Member for Minn edosa with regard to the gasoline and fuel tax in creases this past year and how they relate to hi g hways. I believe the honourable mem ber may have been referring to correspondence from Mr.

Whit more of the Heavy Construction Association when he refers to $24 million in creases in taxes related to highways. That is in correct information. lt's about $21.6 million in incr eases , total, from the Department of Finance estimations and approxima tely $7.6 million can be attributed to railways, heating fuel and off-highway vehicles and so on, of that 21, so we're talking about $14 million that can be related to highway use, as opposed to $24 million that the honourable member used.

That of course is a somewhat different picture, although the budget of the department is not in creased as much as the hig hway taxes. But the relative sign ificance of it is less, on the basis of the information that I have, versus the information that the individual member has put forward and I want to mention user taxes have never been the way that hig hways have been financed in this province or in any other province, as a matter of fact. No tax has been designa ted for that specific purpose. If you look at - (In terjection) - the overall . . . MR. D. BLAKE: The rationale has been a lot higher though. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, if you look at the overall Hig hways budget, we're obviously collecting a lot less money than we are spending in the areas of Highways and Transportation and of course if we get into user tax, on the basis of who uses the roads and who doesn't, we have the difficulty of determining whether the users can actually afford to fin ance the high ways and expansion of the Highw ays budget that the honourable member may have been referring to in his remarks that there should be a substantial expansion because users would, I think, not be able to afford a tremendous in crease in that - we look at grain transportation as one example where farmers would have to perhaps pay a substantial amount more in registration and licen ces for the use of their roads; and if we get into that, I think it would be folly and it would be a backward step so I wouldn't like to see it work on the basis of those people who use the hig hways.

There's benefits to people who do not use it as well, of having an efficient highway system and that's the basis for the tax system, for financing highways over the years, and I think we should continue to have that system, as opposed to strictly a user tax. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are now considering Executive Support - Admin istration and Finance 1. (b)( 1) Salaries, 1. (b)

(2) Other Expenditures.

Monday. 8 April, 1985 The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just on this item and to follow up the Minister's remarks, whether we call it a user tax or not, it was obvious they way the figures are, we can always get into a dispute over figures. The obvious fact is that the user fees on gasoline taxes and other taxes have been increased and 80 percent of that increase was siphoned off and it wasn't going into roads. That was the aegis of our argument, that's been siphoned off and gone somewhere and we're waiting for it to show up.

Whether it shows up at election time or more flags or more stakes on the highway, just before the election's called, we don't know, but we'll be watching for it. HON. J. PLOHMAN: One joke goes that, a surveyor is looking through the scope, the other fellow asks him what he sees out there and he says he sees an election coming; but I don't think we could look at it from that respect this year, Mr. Chairman. There's a lot of construction activity going on and I would say not a disproportionate amount of survey work going on. MR. D. BLAKE: As the fly said when he walked over the mirror, Mr.

Chairman, that's one way of looking at it. The increase in Executive Salaries is only up a small amount. The Minister might care to comment, if that just covers a new executive assistant or what that increase might cover. HON. J. PLOHMAN: If I could, I'd like to distribute a staffing list of changes from last year if that might help the members. I have a number of sheets that might serve to facilitate the discussion. We'll pass this out and I'll make a comment on the difference in staffing. 1. (

b) reflects the same number of staff. We're under 1. (b), Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. HON. J. PLOHMAN: 1.(

b) does not reflect an increase in staff, just . . . MR. D. BLAKE: . . . general increase in salaries. HON. J. PLOHMAN: . . . and reclassification. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(bX1 )- pass; 1. (bX2)-pass. HON. J. PLOHMAN: There's an increase, Mr. Chairman, in 1. (c). MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)( 1) , Admin istrative Services, Salaries; 1.(cX2), Other Expenditures - the Honourable Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, in anticipation of the question, there's an increase of one staff that provides for the support for the internal audit function. That makes up the majority of the in crease there. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, at the

section that we'll be questioning the Minister on internal audit, there will be 625 some questions on that, Mr. Chairman, but I think the

section will be somewhat later on. When did you want to - when we get under districts, I suppose? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well if they're specific questions relating to districts, Mr. Chairman, that would be the place, otherwise this is the

section where the internal audit Is located - internal auditor. MR. D. BLAKE: We can maybe cover it right now, Mr. Chairman, and I'm referring to the situation in the Carman area. I wanted to ask the Minister what - he may not be able to comment too much on that one - I just wondered if there were any other areas, what his audits - his checks and balances, so to speak - if they'd shown up any other discrepancies or irregular practices in any other districts? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, both the Provincial Auditor and the internal auditor are working on this investigation and we expect a report on their findings within a week or so, so I can't comment on what their findings might be at this time. MR. D. BLAKE: Would the Minister be able to make those findings available to members of the opposition or is that an internal . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well we would want to assess the report, Mr.

Chairman, and I believe what would be reflected would be, if we felt there was suggestions or requirements to change procedures, we would obviously want to implement them, and after some consideration the members would be made aware of those. I think that would be the best way to do it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(cX1 )- pass; 1.(cX2)- pass. 1.(dX 1) , 1.(dX2), Financial Services, Salaries, Other Expenditures - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: The increase there, I suppose, reflects, Mr. Chairman, the similar situation to (c). HON. J. PLOHMAN: There's no increasing in staffing in th at particular area.

There ma y be some reclassifications for computer services and so on, upgrading of classifications, but no increases in the SYs. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(dX 1) -p ass; 1.(dX2)- pass. 1.(eX 1) Personnel Services, Salaries, 1.(eX2) Other Expenditures. 1.(eX 1) -p ass; 1.(eX2)-pass. 1. (fX1) Computer Services, Salaries, 1.(fX2) Other Expenditures. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Again no change in staffing there, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(fX1) -p ass; 1.(fX2)-pass. We shall defer this Item 1 because of the Minister's Salary. We now go to Item No. 2, Operations and Maintenance; 2.(

a) which is Maintenance Program. Operation and Maintenance, 2.(a). - (Interjection) We're on Item No. 2, on Page 93 at the bottom, Operations and Maintenance, (

a) Maintenance Program - the Honourable Min ister.

Monday, 8 April, 1985 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, this area of 2.(

a) includes a small incr ease in the staffing of 1. 26 for additional casual employment to supervise maintenance activities. In addition to that, there's additional dollars, primarily in the maintenance activities, in expanding the service in some areas, particularly for dust control and dragging, grading for our roads. We also have an in crease in the number of mil es in the provincial hig hway system that need to be accommoda ted under the Maintenance, about 135.8 miles in Southern Manitoba and 11 9.5 on the Split Lake to Gillam, Sundance Road.

As well there's the inflationa ry incr ease for materials, equipment and services al lowed for about 2 percent, approximately $948,000, so that we feel that materials overall for maintenance will be up around - for most of the major materials that are required - will be about 5 to 6 percent incr ease for those materials. lt req uires about a 2 percent in crease in the overall Budget. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, it's up about $1. 7 million. Those increases are pretty well taken care of in the statements the Minister made.

Under tendering the department, the Min ister can confirm, is it still following a tendering process, and probably he could assure us that all of the roads in Dauphin and Dauphin constituency were tendered under the usual prescribed manner? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well we're talkin g about maintenance activities here and major maintenance work is done by a tendering process, it is not done by Department of Hig hways forces.

However, of course, the honourable member will be aware that there are certain works that are done on an hourly basis and the department publi shes an hourly rate for each year that's usually updated with some inflationary allowance. I don't bel ieve this last year it was in creased - (Interjection) - a 3 percent in crease and that was for the last couple of years. There hadn't been an in crease, I believe, the year before. So it is done on that basis.

We have to consider that - I would like to see of course that all equipment owners in an area have an opportunity to have access to this work on a rotation basis, and of course I think that is the fairest way to do it. We want to perhaps look at that over the next while to see if that is the case. Of course that's one of the areas that the internal auditor will be looking at, perhaps in his investigations, but it seems to me that's one of the fairest ways to proceed. Of course, District 8 in Dauphin is no different, in terms of my involvement, than it is in the other district. MR. D. BLAKE: This particular

section would cover the main tenance and design on existing bridges, not on new bridg es. New bridges would come under Planning and Design, I suppose, would it, Mr. Chairman? Am I correct there? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We have a certain amount of maintenanc e work done on bridges, under this appropriation, but the Construction Program has the major replacement of bridges. Major bridges on our hig hway system are included under the Construction Program. 626 MR. D. BLAKE: That's right. I think that would be the best

section to discuss, for example, the proposed bridge at Selkirk. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, that's under the Construction Program. I might mention that the department continues to follow the maintenanc e, management system that has been in place with all of the standards that were outlined there since about the early '70s, it was put in place, and the same standards that were applied at that time are being followed under the Maintenance Program today with a computerized system, standards that are applied and so on.

I don't know whether the members would be interested in that but summer maintenance makes up most of the dolla rs, much more than the winter maintenanc e, about three times as much of the total dollars spent under what we call normal maintenanc e. There's also special maintenanc e activities such as resealing of pavement, heavy maintenance work that's done under this

section as well and the remainder is winter maintenanc e. MR. D. BLAKE: Largely winter roads, I take it. HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, not winter roads. This would be the winter snow clearing and sand and so on that's done during the winter months. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)- pass. The Member for Virc;len. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, some place along the line, I would like the Min ister to give us an opportunity for a pretty open discussion on the planning and the design that we use in our Mai ntenance Program, dealing not only with surfaces of roads, but also with our bridges. Where would you suggest that we do this?

Would it be in the next item? A lot of it comes under Maintenance too. HON. J. PLOHMAN: If the member would like to have a discussion on bridge standards and so on, I think that would be best had under the Bridge

Section that is included. However, a general discussion on the maintenance standards that are in place, General Mai ntenance, I think we should have it right now if the member has some comments he'd like to make. If the member would like to talk about proposed new bridges or major structures that are being included, that would come under Planning and Design; but the standards for existing bridges would come under the Bridge

Section and that is a Special Appropriation in 2.(d)(2), so the member could raise all the question on bridges at that point. However, if the member wants to discuss our standards for maintenance, this is the time to do it. MR. H. GRAHAM: Standards for maintenance, the best time is right now. HON. J. PLOHMAN: This is the best time to do it. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister if the department has done any studies on the cost of maintenance of, say, a concrete roadway as com pared to an asphalt roadway or if their studies

Monct.y, a April, 1115 have indi cated that perhaps it is better to put an asphalt treatment on top of a concr ete road? Can we get some professional opinions on that at the present time? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We haven 't, I don't think, outside of the department, und ertaken any extensive studies in this area recently, but the point is that in the Red River Valley area where aggregates are limited, the concr ete is used most extensively and asphalt is used mostly in other parts of the province; so we don't do a lot of concrete paving in other parts of the province, just in the Red River Valley area.

The life span is about 18 -20 years on that concrete pavement and after it has received that kind of wear, then usually an overlay is put over the top of it, not just an AST but so that we get the proper adhering qualities, a regular mat or overlay is required of two to four inches over the top, and that's what you see on the Trans-Canada Highw ay and on other concrete roads that have seen their better years. So that's generally what's done and it's cheaper generally to lay bituminous pavement than it is to do concrete, even at this time. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, it hasn't been very long that No. 1 Highway has been in operation since it was rebuilt or built and yet we're finding that the concrete apparently is not standing up. They've had to put asphalt over top of most of it and, as you say, 18 years. Eig hteen years in concrete, to me, doesn't seem to be a very long span and it causes even greater concern when you start to get into bridge construction, because I've been over bridges that have been in existence for hundreds of years. Yet here we're replacing bridges after 15-20 years and ... yes, hundr eds of years.

In Europe, bridges are standing and still being used that are hundr eds of years old. I'm beginning to ask questions about whether we are using the best materials or is the material that we're using the wrong material, because if we're only getting 18 or 20 years out of a road, I know gravel roads in this province that have been standing for 30 and 35 years and we can only get 18 years out of a conc rete surface. lt doesn 't seem right to me because it costs us ten times as much to put a concr ete surface on and it's only standing up half the length of an ordinary gravel road.

We'd better be getting some answers to those questions because there's hundr eds of millions of dollars in vested and it's not standing up. HON. J. PLOHMAN: First of all, that's a gr oss exaggeration in terms of the cost of the concrete. it's not ten times as much; it's very close to the actual cost because there's more aggregate required for bituminous paving for base in the Red River Valley area. Concr ete doesn't require as much base. The other thing is that when you put an overlay on. you're extending the life of that road for another 12 - 15 years.

So really , you have at least 30 years out of the total life of that road because you don 't have to rebuild the base to put the bituminous overlay over as you would if you were starting from scratch and were having to rebuild the whole road to do the grading and then put the bituminous overlay. What you have then • is the life extended to at least 30 years. You have not the kinds of costs differential that the member is referring to. 627 MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'll ask the Minister another question.

Ho w much mone y has he got in this Bud get appropria ted for research into new methods and new materials to be used in road construction? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I wouldn't have a figure but we're always looking at new ways of doing things. Recycling asphalt is one area that we're doing.

We're also looking at new developments, new technology in terms of machines that are available to recap paved surfaces, so that an extensive two to four inch overlay is not required just to fill those areas that require the filling, in areas where you have, for example, rutting in existing pavement because of an extreme amount of traffic over a number of years. So, that is being looked at. We're also looking at studies to find the most effective materials for dust control, that kind of thing is going on.

I guess I can say the laboratory is constantly doing tests on existing materials to determine how they're standing up and to make suggestions for improvements on the kinds of aggregate and materials that are used. In addition to the efforts that we're making indi vidually as a department, we're also members of some large organ izat ions; the Roads and Transportation Association of Canada, which is doing a $3 million study in which we are participating over a period of years to determine the effects of in creased weights on the pavements across the country.

As the members will be aware, there has been a dramatic in crease in weights that have been allowed over the years. Of course, it is also coming to the attention of authorities that this has decreased the life of pavements dramatically, so we have to look at that and that is being addressed. As well, the Deputy Minister is on a committee of the American Association of Traffic and Hi ghway Officials which is a huge American organization that is doing a great deal of research into various materials used for paving and methods of pavement and so on.

So, through that organization and our di rect participation which we're very pleased that we have a member , the Deputy Min ister on, we have access to the latest information there as well. So, I think those two areas, those two major organizations will provide us with the kind of information that the honourable member is seeking through our participation in those organizations. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, once a year, the Estimates for each department are brought before a Commi ttee of the Legislature and if we ask questions in the House, we're told wait till you get to Estimates, then the answers will provided. I asked the Min ister how much mone y has been set aside for planning into new materials and new methods of construction of roads and bridges to get an in creased lifespan and he says he hasn't got the figure. Can you give us the figure? Can you get it for us? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I can give the honourable member the figures after we have a chance to put them together in various sections of the Budget. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gla dstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Monday, 8 April, 1985 If my memory serves me correctly, there was an announc ement some time during last year about a program the Hig hways Department was doing on photographing all the highw ays and provincial roads in the province. Could you give us an update on that? MR. H. GRAHAM: We'll try and get you another 10 miles for your constituency. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't recall a specific announc ement on photographing of high ways.

What we usually do is if there's major developments being taken - I don't know if the honourable member is referring to aerial photography that's done for routing; that is done on a project-by-project basis. We also do traffic tests and so on on high ways on an ongoing basis to determine traffic volumes and so on, but I'm not certain what the member is referring to here. MRS. C.

OLESON: I haven't got it in front of me either; I wish I had. lt strikes me that this announcement said that all the highw ays and provincial roads in the province, there was a program being undertaken to photograph them all with a view of the condition they were in and so forth. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well again, I don't think that there was an annou ncement that came from the department as such. lt may have been some departmental employee making reference to some new processes that might be available.

There is a new laser machine that can measure the condition of pavement and we want to do some testing with that this spring. There's also a test that's done every fall on pavements to determine the ratings of those pavements in terms of the ridability and that is done by the districts and the maintenance engineer every year to determine the ridability and it's graded and that num ber is al located so that we know what the condition is in terms of the need to upgrade or resurface and so on.

But that is done on an ongoing basis so there's no new program in that regard, but as I mentioned, there is a new machine involving use of lasers and we want, since it is available, to have it tested here. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I wonder can the Minister advis e me how many mil es the municipalities in the province maintain of the PAs and the hig hways and how much money the department pays to the muni cipalities. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would have to get that informa tion.

I don't know if we have the exact dollars. it's a very small percentage in certain districts. I believe District 7 is one where most of that is done. Ther e's only one other di strict, I bel ieve, where municipa lities are doing the maintenance work to any extent at all for the Department of Highw ays and Transportation. lt involves in District 7, about 20 percent to 25 percent of the maintenance work that is done and that's the hig hest district, so it's rather insign ificant and each year it's less in areas where municipal ities are deciding that they no longer want to provide that service.

In some municip alities they like that kind of system because then they can afford to buy equipment that they otherwise would not be able to, but largely that practice is not in place across the province. If the member would like the exact doll ars, we could get that for another sitting but I don't have it right with me at the present time. 628 MR. W. McKENZIE: Can I ask the Minis ter, are any private contractors doing maintenance in the province'? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Not as a rule, for reg ular maintenance there isn't.

We're looking at one situation in the province in District 11 where the hig hways maintainer has to travel long distances, dead-ending for the purpose of grading a road and we're letting a contract on that; and of course in that particular case, because the contractor does have some equipment available, it is much cheaper, and we're looking at that kind of approach, but not in any wide scale application. MR. W.

McKENZIE: Can I ask the Min ister, regard ing the bridge at Grandview on the provincial trunk highway which the commun ity, the Chamb er of Comme rce, the town, the municip ality have been asking the Min ister for months now, if they would be kind enough to name it the Hume Bridge for their 85th ann iversary this year? For some strange reason, the Minis ter is stalling and he has not been able to come up with a reply or agree with the local commun ity. I wonder if the Min ister can give those communities a decision today. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, traditionally the naming of bridges has taken place only on major structures. We have many, many bridges across the province and normally they are not named, except when they are major structures crossing the major waterways. The policy of the department has been, over the years, not to name bridges of the kind that the honourable member is referring to, so that is the major reason why there has been no positive decision in regard to that request. lt is an anomaly; it's a special request that does not fit the policy and I'm concerned that we would get into these kinds of ceremonies.

I think the members opposite would think that we were wi ndo w dr es sing and sp endin g money on ceremonies and signage and things like that, that they don't feel should be a high priority for the government. We could have opening ceremonies of bridges and naming and dedicating them right across this province if that's what the honourable member is sugges ting, but I think that would be rather an extensive program. Right now, it just not exist and we're reviewing that and that's why we have not made any decision on it. lt does not fit the current policy; it never has been the policy of the department. MR. W.

McKENZIE: I wonder would the Minis ter be kind enough to let the Community of Grandview, the muni cipality, the town, know what he's telling me today because they've been waiting months for an answer. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I did inform them that there was no commitment made to name that bridge and what our policy was. I gave them that

Mond•y, a April, 1915 information some time ago. However, I said I was reviewing that policy to see whether there would be any advantage to getting into a widespr ead program of naming. I have not received the final report on that from the department. As soon as I do, I will be informing them. I received the honour able member's letter jus t recently and I'm going to be replying to that as soon as possible. I know that they would like to know the final dispensation of that, but I did indic ate to them what the policy was and I think they are aware.

I also ind icated that there was no commitment from the department anywhere that we could determine. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. it's very obvious that the Min ister's not running his department when he answered the Member for Roblin-R ussell. Does the Min ister himself not have a policy as to whether or not these bridges could be named? I would think he'd have enough experience by now where he could just step out on his own a little bit without putting the department ahead of him and blaming them for not being able to come forward with a pol icy.

I would hope the Min ister would start the department. Does the Minister have a policy? Or what is the government's policy on the num bers of maintenance trips that are made over the PR roads in the province? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, before I get to the maintena nce trips, I might respond just briefly to the

preamble of the mem ber. The policy is in place and I generally am in agreement with it. The only di fference in this particular case is that it was stated that there was a commi tment to name that bridge. I want to determine if there was such a commitment and that's why it was taking time. I'm inclined to go with the policy that has been in place. In terms of the standards, the dragging varies depen ding on the road classification and the road classification is established by traffic volumes.

The Class 3 road - I'm just trying to get the traffic volumes on here - would be graded, dragged 33 times in a summer; Class 4 road, 20 times and a Class 5 road, 14 times, and that is the established practice that has been in place for, as I said earli er, about 15 years. The traffic volumes are in another

section here. I could find that, in terms of what constitutes a Class 3 or Class 4 or Class 5 road, but there's a lesser amount of traffic in each of those classes as you go up, from Class 3 to Class 4 to Class 5. There's less traffic on those. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the concern I have is that there are some roads, particularly in the constituency which I represe nt, that far too often I don't think come within any class at all, that the road traffic Is far greater than what a lot of the engine ers feel that the roads are in deplorable condition.

Many muni cipal councillors have contacted me, many local people, and asked for an in crease. Do the engineers in the district, is it specifically laid out for them or do they have a cost saving that they can transfer the mone y from fuel and wages from that 629 road mai ntenance into other portions of their departments or how do they handle the funding for that? If they as engi neers, feel that they can save some money in a particular road, do they have that flexibility or is it laid out in pretty strict policy to them? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: As a general rule, they are to drag to those classifications that I indi cated, 33 times, and I wanted to just go over that. Class 3 road would have average daily traffic of between 250 and 600 vehicles per day; Class 4 would be 75 to 250 vehicles per day, average daily traffic; Class 5 would be less than 75 vehicles per day. I ind icated that the dragging times were 33 times in the summer, 20 and 14 for each of those classificat ions.

That can vary if unusual circu mstances develop in a particular area where there are a lot of complaints or severe problems develop, they can put more empha sis on one particular road and then may put less to balance out on another particular road. So they have some di scretion but as a general rule they follow the standards that are in place and it is our desire that they do that and that they would give special treatment to certain roads when problems develop of a severe nature. MR. J.

DOWNEY: I suppose if a person were to call the engi neers in the di fferent districts, they'd be able to repeat what you've just said, that that's what they'd be going by. Is that correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: They have the same standards and I believe that's what they would say. As I ind icated, they may make some decisions regarding additional dragging on certain roads because of certain situations that develop. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I'd like to ask the Min ister just what class of road does he describe PR 227 - what class? He referred to Class ... HON. J.

PLOHMAN: 227 varies, depen ding what

section the honourable member is talking about. North of Portage, it has about 230 vehicles per day. MR. L. HYDE: I'm speaking on the part, Mr. Chairman to the Minis ter, from 240 west to highw ay No. 16. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, that would be, from what I can see on the map, 230 vehicles per day, so that would be a Class 4 road and would warrant 20 draggings a summer. MR. L. HYDE: Twenty draggings per summer. Mr. Chairman, for some time now, I have been approaching the different Ministers of High ways on the condition of the

section of road, as I said, east of 240 on 227. The answer that I've been getting for the last number of years is that once that heavy traffic of trucks hauling material is completed to the upgrading of hig hway 16, that there's a good chance that 227 will be brought up to where it is higher than the level of the land around. Today, Mr. Chairman, the old highway is below the level of the land. it's just been pounded out to the point that it is almost impossible to travel it in wet conditions.

Monday, I April, 1915 Is it in the plans of the Minister in the near future to have that correction made there? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we're sliding into the construction program here. MR. L. HY DE: I realize that, but I didn't want to miss the opportunity. HON. J. PLOHMAN: As the honourable member knows, on this one question there is one grading contract on that road further east, but there are no specific plans in the program for the other sections of the road at this time. lt could very well be programmed in future years, as the member knows, but it's not in the program at this time.

But I want to emphasize again, Mr. Chairman, that we're getting into a discussion that is somewhat apart from the Maintenance. If the member is asking about the maintenance of that road at this particular time then we should be discussing it now; if he is talking about upgrading it to a higher standard, then we can discuss it at that time.

The standards or classifications of roads tha t I'm talking ab out in terms of th e maintenance work is not the same as the standard in terms of upgrading of the road. it's a standard that's applied on the basis of average daily traffic and therefore gives us a guideline for the number of dragging trips on that road. MR. L. HY DE: Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate what the Minister is saying but until such time as there are funds enough available to the Department of Highways for more construction, I would suggest that we need more maintenance work on that particular stretch of road, because it is in a deplorable state right now. There is no gravel on it, to speak of; it's just been pounded out. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The standards that I referred to a few moments ago also refer to not only the number of dragging times that are warranted per year as a guideline, it also refers to the amount of dust treatment that's applied to a particular road and we intent to expand that in the coming year as well, the dust treatment on several of our roads to cut down on the hazardous conditions that exist on a number of our roads.

We're expanding considerably our dust control treatment across the province and we want to put more emphasis on that when we cannot get into paving or upgrading those roads because there are demands from all over the province for upgrading. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour now being 4:30, we are interrupting the proceedings of this committee for Private Memb ers' Hour. The committee will return at 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY -HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Health. Does the Minister have an opening statement? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, I would apologize to the committee - if we could take a minute or so - it's a very short statement that I intend to make and I didn't have enough copies, and the critic of the opposition would like to have a copy, so that is being made and it shouldn't be very long. I might say during that time, Mr.

Chairman, that I don't intend to make a very long statement, rather short, but I chose instead of having during the course of the Estimates Review, because we deal with the Alcoholism Foundation, Sports and different groups, of maybe having a short statement or press release, or whatever you want to call it, at that time. I think it will be easier to follow. So with that understanding then, it should take a minute or so.

Maybe I could ask the - I see the Leader of the Opposition is not there, I was going to make sure that I understood the que stion that I was asked earlier to try and endeavour to have the information as soon as possible. lt is a system of computers that keeps record of all Manitobans from . . . A MEMBER: Cradle-to-grave. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Was that the question? I think they called it PHIN or something. A MEMBER: PHIN. 630 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, so the Minister can seek out the information, it is a nine-digit number called the Perso nal Health In suranc e Numb er used in conjunction with your MH SC contract number, only this number has not been made public. lt is a number which stays with an individual from cradle-to-grave and from which all information on medical records can be pulled on that individual, so that in my family I have a PHIN number, my wife has a PHIN number, and my three childr en each have a separate PH IN num ber, which will keep track of them until they are no longer on this planet. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, I know that the department has been trying to get as much information of a medical nature for the planning that is necessary, but certainly I can assure the members of this committee that there has not been any policy change from the present government to try to spy on the people and get more information. As I said, the details of that I'm not familiar with, and I'll get an answer directly from the Commission and report back to the committee as soon as possible. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, in that regard, we'd be fully prepared to discuss that this evening in the Estimates process. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that would be quite proper. This is something in the Commission and we won't be in the Commission today. I think that through the question period we certainly would have time. I think it will be very difficult to go through these Estimates if once we pass the initial statement, we don't try to stay with line-by-line. lt will be impossible to get the information properly.

Monday. I April, 1115 That could be dealt with - well, I guess maybe in Planning if you want it early, if you want it tonight. If I get the information we could look at Reseach and Planning on (c), because we have that combined, the Research and Planning, both the Commission and the department is together. So if I have the informa tion, to accommodate the members opposite, I'll be ple ased to discuss it later on then. The short statement that I have - the Health critic of the opposition now has a copy. Mr.

Chairman, I'm introducing today a budg et for the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba, Manitoba Health and the Manitoba Health Services Commission, that now exceed s the sum of $1.1 billion. I have had the opportunity to present to members of health care professions and interested citizens some basic facts about health care services in Manitoba and the cost of supporting our program. I have stressed that it is necessary to consider the most efficient methods possible to care for those in need and to assure that services are provided to meet the needs of our citizens in the most cost-effective method possible.

With this ackno wledgment that there's a need to consider prudent fiscal policies, I am pleased to be able to announce that the combined efforts of Manitoba Health and the Manitoba Health Services Commission will see incr eased programs for health services during the fiscal year 19 85-86. This year we have been able to budget for our immediate needs by close monitoring and in creased efficien cy. We have been able to start some new programs and maintain or expand those started in previous years .

We are intens ifying our efforts to promo te reproductive health by education in schools and communiti es by improving and expanding services to mothers and children. We are supporting a cancer outreach program, where people will be treated in their rural communi ties. We are expanding the neo-natal and pediatric intensive care units at Children's Hospital. We have expanded the obstetrical unit at the St. Bonif ace General Hospital. At the St.

Bon iface General Hospital and the Health Sciences Centre, we are continuing to support an obstetrical outreach program that takes portable ultrasou nd to women in northern and remote communit ies. We are continuing to expand our provincewide ultrasound program in a way that will make this expensive but useful diagnostic tool available equally to all Manitobans. We are expanding our services to northern and remote communi ties. We are increasing staff in northern nursing stations under our jurisdiction. We are offering training courses for community health workers.

We are offering funding assistance to public health nurses who wish to take university education. We are enlisting local residents to take a greater share in health decisions that affect them by forming health comm ittees in a number of communities. We are inaugurating an air ambulance program using a Cessna Citation 11, which will be so equi pped and staffed that it will be capable of transporting any medical emergency patients. As part of our policy of disease preven tion, we are ina ug urating a provinc ewi de di abetic educ ation 631 pro gr am.

This will have the pr im ary pu rpose of preventing the onset of diab etes in people at risk. Nutrition counsel ling, education and the monitoring of diab etics will reduce hospital use and delay some of the major complications of this common disease. Similar prog rams in other jur isdictions have prod uced encouraging results. Our policy has always been to do everything possible to promo te the hea lth, personal digni ty and inde pendence of our elderly .

This year, through a newly formed interdepartmental group, Supp ort Services to Seniors, we will subsidi ze some 37 community projects to provide such supports as group meals, transportation, escort services and regular or occasional home help. Our Home Care Program, which offers support services in the homes of Manitobans of all ages, is for the elderly an effective alternative to care in an institution. In 19 84, 10 ,20 1 were in this program, compa red to 9,933 in 1983. Without the Home Care Program , many of these people would have had no alernative but placement in a personal care home.

We have expanded adult day care, a social and recreational program for elderly home care clients. 1t has proved successful as an aid to mainta inin g independence. Respite care, also being expanded, offers respite to families caring for an elderly memb er. I would like to be able to report, Mr. Chairman, that we have reduced our waiting list for admissions to personal care homes, but I can't do this. The waiting list stands at about 1, 700. I have asked for a review and when this is complete, I'll report to the Legislature.

In spite of our concern about institutional costs, we are increasing our support for traditional hospital services by inc reasing the supply of intensive care beds in Winnipeg. We will reduce the waiting list for elective eye surgery by providing staff and equipment to perform 1, 000 procedu res a year in day surgery. We are expanding the capacity to treat outpatients and not-for-admission surgical cases at Concordia Hospital and Brandon General Hospital. The expansion of Brandon General Hospital will enable this institution to meet increasing demands on it as a referral centre for rural patients.

In the area of mental health, Mr. Chairman, we have begun to reorganize and enhance our service delivery system which began with the report of the mental health working group. The position of the chief provincial psychiatrist has been filled with a person who holds a join t appointment with the department and the Uni versity of Manitoba as a professor of psychiatry. We have established a mental health di rectorate to plan and develop mental health services. A Central Mental Health Advisory Committee has been approved to promote consultation about mental health issues.

We are building 200-bed personal care home units for elderly residents at Brandon and Selkirk to replace time-expired facilities at the mental health centres. An audio-visual link between Brandon Mental Health Centre and the Un iversity Department of Psychiatry at the Health Scienc es Centre has been established. This makes expert consultation available to the Mental Health Centre staff. As I proceed into the detailed Estimates of the Manitoba Health Services Commission, I will provide

llondtly. I April, 1115 you with details of a multimillion dollar hospital and personal care home construction program. Mr. Chairman, I have provided a brief introduction concerning the new and expanded programs which are being sponsored by Manitoba Health and the Manitoba Health Services Commission. Throughout the course of our discussions and debate, I will be providing additional, more detailed information as it relates to ongoing programs and those that are scheduled for expansion or commencement in the fiscal year, 19 85- 86. Now, Mr.

Chairman, before I take my seat I want to take advantage of this opportunity to say to the mem bers of this committee how pleased I am with the dedicated staff that we have, led with my Deputy Min ister, who is also executive dir ector of the Commi ssion, and of course, his assistant deputy ministers in the department, as well as the associated directors at the Commission, and also the new director that we have at the Alcoholism Foundation. I would challenge any department -I would think that we could rival any department with a staff of dedicated, concerned people who are loyal to their beliefs.

I can't say too much good about them. I know that it is a difficult and a large department and I know that it would be impossible for me to accept any responsibility in the department if it wasn't for the help of the terrific staff that we have. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to thank the Minister for his opening statement and I want to assure the Minister that during the course of the consideration of his Estimates that we will attempt to deal with the issues that are before us, with his department and with some of the emerging problems that are facing Manitobans as they look at the future of the health care system. Mr.

Chairman, I, of course, cannot comment on the Minister's last remarks regarding the staff and how well they work and how good they are, because I haven't been Minister responsible for that department and I haven't been critic for all that great a number of months, but I do have to tell the Minister that

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-4-21a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 4th hansardpdf 21a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0a9dd84d5b08000ea9a97e38c562b4bad4b6dae8

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).