Manitoba Hansard — 16 August 1988 (Sitting 18, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-18

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 18 - 1:30 p.m., TUES DAY, AUGUST 16, 1988. ISSN 0542 -5 492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

NAME ALCOCK, Reg ANGUS, John ASHTON, Stave BURRELL, Parker CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CHARLES, Gwen CHEEMA, Gulzar CHORNOPYSKI, William CONNER" Edward Hon. COWAN, Jay CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DOER, Gary DOW NE" James Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DRIEDGER, Herold, L. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Laurie EVANS, Leonard FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen Hon. GAUDR" Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold GRAY, Avis HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R. HEMPHILL, Maureen KOZAK, Richard, J. LAMOUREUX. Kevin, M.

MALOWAY, Jim MANDRAKE, Ed MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. McCRAE, James Hon. MINENKO, Mark MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation CONSTITU ENCY Osborne St. Norbert Thompson Swan River Fort Rouge River Heig hts Selkirk Kild onan Burrows Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose du Lac Roblin- Russell Concordia Arthur Emerson Ni akwa Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Fort Garry Brandon East Tuxedo Vlrden St.

Boniface Min nedosa Ell ice Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Gimli Logan Transcona lnkster El mwood Assi nib oia Morris Brandon West Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PAnERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet AOCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain AOCH, Gilles Spri ngfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STOAIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAVLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, Iva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBER AL LIBER AL NDP PC LIB ERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIB ERAL LIBER AL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBER AL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBE RAL NDP PC PC LIBER AL PC LIBE RAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBE RAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBER AL PC NDP PC PC PC LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBER AL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, August 16, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli) in troduced, by leave, Bill No. 18,

An Act to amend

An Act to Inc orporate the Manitoba Motor League; Loi modifiant la Loi inti tulee "An Act to Incorporate the Manitoba Motor League." INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I would like to di rect Honourable Members' attention to the Speaker's gallery where we have with us state representatives Elton Redahlen , Jim Tunheim and Wally Sparby from the Min nesota House of Representatives. On behalf of all Ho nour able Mem bers, I welcome you to the Legislatur e this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Premiers' Conference Port of Churchill Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My ques tion is to the Fi rst Mi nis ter. At a press conference earlier today he spoke of the upcoming Premiers' Conference and he menti oned issues in a general way which he would like to raise. However, his comments did not seem well-focussed on the particular plight of Manitobans, and so I would like to ask him: Why was there no mention today of the Port of Churchill and what negotiations will he undertake at the First Min isters' Conference in order to supp ort the operation and contin ued operation of the Port of Churchill? .. (1 335) Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): As a matter of fact following the formal news conference, in a conferenc� call with media from rural Manitoba, the topic of the Port of Churchill was rais ed. I indic ated at that time that with respect to the issues surrou nding Churchill the fact is tha t several of the Min isters of the Fi rst Minis ters' have competing int erests. Premier Peterson a good friend of the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs : Cars tai rs), has ind icated that he is fighting dili gently to get more grain through Thunder Bay and opposed to grain going elsewhere that could go to Thunder Bay.

With respect to other Premiers, the West Coast ports are looking for sup port because they fear layoffs and loss of employment. We will have an opportunity to lobb y and to work with those Premiers who might potentially have some in terest in supporting us, and 553 that in clude s the prairie Premie rs, Premier Getty , Premier Devine, and I will be raising it with them, and I can gi ve that assurance to the Leader of the Opposition. Premiers' Conference Aluminum Smelters Development Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): I thank the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) for that as su rance, but yet there is another serious economic issue which this side would like to see equally raised . Therefore, I ask the Premier to confirm that he will enter negotia tions with the First Min ister of the Province of Queb ec concerning smelter developments in both our provinces to ensur e that those developments can be coordin ated, and to further ensur e that it will not be an either/or confrontation. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Wel l, there are a variety of issues there, and I think it is important that the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs.

Carstairs) and in deed the House underst and that the issue we are looking at with respect to an aluminum smelter possibl y being located in Manitoba by Alumax is not an either/or situa tion. Unfortunately the Leader of the Opposition took her lead from Mr. Axworthy in Ottawa because I saw him make exactly the same state ment in his comments about it in the House in Ottawa yesterd ay, to which he said that the two firms were competing and, in fact, that there was not enough requirement for capacity in North America, or in the world to requir e two dif ferent smelt ers.

The reality is tha t the two smelters are aimed at di fferent markets, and the reality is that the Alumax smelter is a replacement of exis ting capacity that is aging and that is outdated, and that Alumax is looking to replace, so it is not new capaci ty. Premiers' Conference Senate Reform Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): I regret that the Premier could not ind icate that he would und ertake dis cus sions with the Premier of Queb ec, but can the Fi rst Min ister (Mr. Filmon) tell us if he will also undertake serious negotiations with regard to a Triple E Senate?

I understand that in the press conference, he ind icated that it might well come up, but is he prepared to advance the cause of a Triple E Sena te, and to work positively on negotiations toward that end? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carsta irs) seems to be aware of the issues that I raised in my news conference today. 1t is regrettable that she is not aware of the fact that I specifically raised the Triple E Sena te, ind icated that Premiers Devi ne, Vander Zalm and Getty and I would

Tuesda� August 16, 1988 look forward to converting other First Minis ters to the Triple E Sena te complex, to the concept. We issued a release in our Parksvi lle meeting, the Western Premiers' in May, in which we gave our full and complete support to the concept of a Triple E Senate. We look forward to the opportunity at this Premiers' Conference to gain more converts to the concept of the Triple E Sena te. I will be pushing it very strong ly. Civil Service Hiring Restraints Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a new question to the Fi rst Min ister (Mr. Filmon).

This Gov ernment's ad min istrative record raises serious questions. lt has cond ucted a major purge of its senior management. lt has a Min ister responsi ble for the Civil Service (Mr. Conner

y) who jokes about pink sli ps, and, as a result, our profes siona l Civil Service and Manitoba at large are frightened and bewil dered by what they consider to be an erratical managerial style. Has the Treasury Board under the Fi rst Min ister (Mr. Filmon) given a di rective to in dividual departments regarding possible hiring rest raints? Specifically , has a di rective been gi ven to impose a 7 percent staff year vacancy rate, and if so, in which departments? *

(1340) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Firstly, I want to totally reject the

preamble of the Leader of the Oppos ition 's ques tion. Unfortuna tely, my understa nding of the Rules of the House is that she ought not to have a

preamble on a fourth or fifth question, but she again took a lengthy quest ion and I will gi ve her a lengthy answer. The reality of the matter is that the profes sional Civil Service in this province are very pleased for the actions that have been taken by this Government. They see a restoration of confidence in the merit system being put in by this Government. They see an improvement in their morale. In fact, I was told last week by senior civil servan ts, who are not political frie nds of the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) or the Leader of the NDP Party (Mr.

Doer), that the Civil Service is very, very happy with the actions we have taken and that the only terror and the only concern is in the mind of the Leader of the Oppos ition. We are admin ist ering well. We are admini st ering with a good deal of common sense and with concern for the people who serve the people of this province, and they are very hap py, those civil serva nts, by the way that we are admin iste ring this province. Getting back to the further area that the Leader of the Opposition was talking about -she has ind icated about a 7 percent vacancy rate-1 might say, Mr.

Speaker, that we, as Treasury Board, asked the Civil Service to maintain a 7 percent vacancy rate until we had dealt with the Es tima tes process so that jobs were not being filled during a period of time when we were making decisions about combina tions of departments and about reallocation of staff in areas that she agrees wi th, because she said she wanted more efficie ncy in 554 the Ci vil Service; she said she wanted to cut bureaucracy and not service us. We have done exactly that, and in order to do so during the period of time we were considering the Es timates, we main tained a 7 percent vacancy rate.

That instruc tion has now been res cinded. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the Premier meets with you to review the rules with regard to Ques tion Period . Some of the employees have received ind ica tion- Mr. Speake r: Ord er, plea se. The Honour able Government House Leader on a point of order. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, in light of the sugges tion of the Leader of the Oppos ition, may I suggest that she, a number of her Members and a few Members of the NDP also attend that meeting. Mr. Speaker: The Hon ourable Member does not have a point of order.

Civil Service Term Positions Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My supplement ary quest ion on my second question to the Min ister of this Provinc e-the Fi rst Min ister (Mr. Filmon) is: Some employees have been given ind ication that their term positions have been ex tended until the September 1 deadlin e, but despite the fact that some of them have been employed for two or three years, they have no ind ication beyond that point. Can the Fi rst Min ister tell the Hous e what are his intentions with regard to these term pos itions which would normally termina te September 1? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): I cannot judge on a bla nket basis whether all term positions that come up on September 1 are going to be renewed . The reason that they are term positions is because the work is generally of a more temporary nature or a renewa ble nature and not neces sarily a long-term Civil Service pos ition. If it were a long-term Civil Service pos ition, they would be regular employees. They have been brought in on term positions because the Government of the Day, I might say our predecessor Government, obviously did not belie ve that those posit ions should be placed on a permanent basis.

If she can gi ve me some further information about what the specific functions of these pos itions are and what the nature of their role and respon sibili ty is, then we can gi ve her more informa tion, but that is the kind of long detailed answer that should be gi ven in the course of Es timates review. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speak er, can we have some assu rance from the Fi rst Minis ter (Mr. Filmon) that indi viduals who have been term employees for more than two years will be given either adjustment and/or

TUesda� August 16, 1988 retraining programs by this Government should they be termina ted? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, that is a hypothetical question. We have not decided to termina te anybody . * (1 345) Premiers' Conference Regional Economic Development Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Fi rst Minis ter. I was not able to pick up all the content of the Fi rst Minis ter's press conference this morning, if there was any content with the tirade that went on.

The First Min ister's meeting last August entered into an agreement at the in itiation of Manitoba to look at entrenchment down the road of some of the funda mental principl es that were contained in the original Roweii-S irois report in terms of regional development. In light of the again recent announc ement of the Prime Mi ni ster in terms of preferential treatment potentially with Que bec, is the Fi rst Mini ster proceeding with these negotiations to have fair regional development in our Constitution and has he got any success in resu lts as a product of that procedure? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the Leader of the New Democratic Party that there was content in my news conference today and unfortunately he may have di fficulty und erstan ding the content but the reality is that there were many things that I put forward in terms of our inter est in the development of Mani toba's economy. Much of the issues that I intend to raise have to do with making a stronger, more vibrant economy. They also have to do with a commitment to ensur e that regional economic development is done in a way in future that is beneficial to Mani toba. Premiers' Conference Interprovincial Trade Barriers Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition) : I thank the Fi rst Min ister for that ans wer and I look forward to the final agreed upon document that he will bring back to this House next week with that agreement with the other provinces. I look forward to it and I am sure this House will look forward to that announcement.

I would ask the Fi rst Minis ter, in light of the fact that many Manitoba firms are not allowed to get into that free market province of Saskatchewan in terms of trade in this country and many Manitoba firms are not able to get into provinces like Quebec on the same basis, will the First Min ister come back from Quebec with a free trade agreement in Cana da as opposed to just words and talk about this very important item? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, just for the bene fit of the Leader of the New Democratic Party. I am not going to Queb ec, so I cannot come back from Quebec with some document.

Numb er 2, he had six and-a-half years when he was in Government to arrive at some agreement or some document with respect to 555 regional eco nomic dev elopment and he achi eved nothing, so to suggest that a. this meeting we should come back with an agreement, I think is a little excessive on his part but that is the kind of rhetoric he is normally inclin ed to. I ind icated this morning at the news conference that the removal of in terprovincial barriers to trade was a major issue on the part of our Government.

I raised it at Parksvi lle and we got agreement amongs t the four Premiers in Western Canada and some of them are very much incl ined to raising barrier s to in terprovincial trade, and so I thought it was sign ificant that we had a communique that ind icated our commitment to remove those in terprovincial trade barriers. Everyone of our Min isters in going to national meetings have raised that issue with respect to our economy and our desire to remove those in terprovincial trade barrier s and we will continue to press that point strongly. Premiers' Conference Municipal Services Upgrading Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I am pleased having again Manitoba in itiating that issue on the First Min ist er's agenda two years ago. I look forward to the Min ister bringing back to this province a free trade agreement with other provinces in Canada consis tent with the alleged free market philosophy of some of these Premiers. Mr. Speaker, my question again is to the First Minister.

Last year, at Municipal Affairs Ministers' meetings, there was an agreem ent to have a tr i-le vel funding of mun icipal in frast ructure between the federal Government, municipal Governments and the provincial Governments and this agreement was denied by the federal Minis try responsi ble for the Treasury Board, after the Min isters of Muni cipal Affairs had agreed all across the country the Premier of Alberta and the Premier of British Columbia sided with the Prime Min ister on this issue. Wi ll we see any success at the Fi rst Min isters' mee ting on this very important item for Canadians? * (1 350) Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, given that we are dealing with a tri partite agreement in which two of the Parties are not at this particular conference, I do not know what kind of results he expects to have. What I can tell the Leader of the New Democratic Party is that it is st ill an area that is supported by Manitoba. Our Muni cipal Affairs Min ister (Mr.

Cummings) at a recent Municipal Affairs Min isters' meeting joi ned with all of his counterparts across the country in once more making a commitment to that kind of tripa rtite agreement for in frast ruct ure for suppor t for municipalities in this province and right across the country. We remain comm itted to that.

When I was in Ottawa, I dis cussed with the Prime Min ister our desire to have an ER DA agreement that will allow us to have in frast ructure development funded by all three levels of Government and including, obvious ly, the federal Government as a commitment and we are negotia ting actively towards that conclusion.

Tuesda� August 16, 1988 Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Fi rst Minis ter mis sed my point. The Premier of Alberta (Mr. Getty) and the Premier of British Columbia (Mr. Vander Zalm) sided with the Prime Min ister and the sol idarity that was gained with all the Governments of Canada, being together, going to the federal Government and all the municipal ities being together was lost. Wi ll the Fi rst Min ister obtain the agreement of the Premier of Alberta and, ind eed, the Premier of British Columbia, who sided with Mr. Mulroney last year at the Fi rst Minis ters' meeting? Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, not having discussed it with those other Fi rst Min isters, not having listened to their point of view, I am not certain at this point in time what the arguments are in the issue. Wha t I can say is that we are totally committed to that and we are prepared to enter Into an agreement with Ottawa, separate and apart from other provinc es because we deem it to be a priority for Manitoba.

So we are working on a separate ERD A agreement that would allow us to bring in that kind of tri partite financing for municip al in fras tructure, separate and apart from what any other province in this country wants to do. We belie ve we can negotia te that kind of agreement with Ottawa and we are working towards that goal. Cost Benefit Analysis Payroll Tax Reduction Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): My question is for the Minis ter of Fina nce (Mr. Manness).

Governments frequently view tax cuts as a drai n on the Treasury, but carefully targeted tax cuts can gene rate economic activity that offsets some of the costs to Government of the cuts. Has the Department of Finance valuated the proposed payroll tax cut in terms of the economic activity and Government revenue recapt ure it will generate and will the Minis ter table his department's forecast in this matter? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I am hard pressed to determine what side of the issue the Li beral Party is on today, whether they support the payroll tax inc reased exemption or not.

That analysis has been done only in part, to be honest and open about it. Certainly, there will be expected to be a net benefit to the economy in about two years because of the result of the reduction of that tax; firstly, in job creation very qui ckly and, after that, of course, a direct spi n-off to the economy. Cost Benefit Analysis Income Tax Reduction Mr. Richard Kozak (Tranacona): A supplem entary for the Min ister of Finance. Has the Department of Finance, in addit ion, prepared a cost benefit analysis with respect to cuts in the 2 percent tax on net in come and will the Min ister table this analysis? Hon.

Clayton Manneas (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, the answer to that question is, no. One of the great revelations to me as I became the Min ister of 556 Fina nce is that abil ity does not exist wi thin the department. lt is one of the commitments that we have made, requested when we were in Oppos ition, and is one of the areas that will be addressed in due course as we work towards the promis e of multi- year budgeting. Those types of analysis and cost benefit studies have to be put into place.

My department knows what it is tha t we want, what we seek in that area, and hopefully, a year from now, we will be able to present the resu lts of that analysis to the Member opposite. * (13 55) Mr. Kozak: A final supplement ary for the Minis ter. Without these cost benefit studies of the payroll tax cut, vis-a-vis a cut in the 2 percent tax on net in come, how can the Min ister have confidenc e that a tax cut for consumers is less important than a payroll tax cut? Mr. Manneas: Mr. Speaker, I make no such claim.

I sai d, ind eed, Members of this Party have said since 19 83 that the removal of the payroll tax is the highest priority item with this Government. We have received a mandate from the people to govern. Consequently we brought in, in our fi rst Budget, a commitment, a reaction to the commitment. We reduced the payroll tax; we are happy to do so. With respect to the 2 percent tax on income. The Member opposite should know the removal of that tax would represent a reduction in revenue of $200 milli on. I would ask him if that is what he is advocating, what areas of programming would he li ke to see reduced?

Manitoba lntercultural Council Review Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): My quest ion is for the Min ister of Culture, Herit age and Recreation (Mrs. Mitchelson) . When the Min ister announ ced a short time ago that her Government was going to be doing a review of the Manitoba lntercu ltural Counci l, we suppor ted that review as did the lntercultural Council on the basis, I think, as she sa id, that the air could be cleared of expressed concerns. We all ass umed that this would be a very fair, impartial and unbia sed review. I think it will be because it is being done by the Provincial Auditor.

We all have great faith in the fair ness of the work of the Provincial Auditor . However , Mr. Speaker , the Auditor- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Does the Honour able Member have a ques tion? Ms. Hemphill: This is a serious ques tion, Mr. Speaker. I want to know why this Minis ter, who has not been willing to release any reports, prelimi nary or draft reports in any other area, has been willing to allow the release of unpubl ished and unverified financial records from her office during the course of the review and the investigation while the Provincial Auditor is investigating it?

Does she not belie ve that this might have prejud iced the review, at least in the public mind for the thousands

Tuesda� August 16, 1988 of volunteers who are working for the multiculturalism in this province, many of whom constituted her Government in Folklorama? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. Bonnie Mitch elson (C ulture , Herit age & Recreation): I thank the Member for Logan (Ms. Hemphill) for that ques tion. So I can clarif y, the inf ormation that was received by the media, was in a report that was published and given to over 200 members of the Manitoba lntercultural Council at a meeting held back in June. Those were the figu res that the media received and it was public in formation. Ms.

Hemphill: I am wonderi ng, in light of the concern that has been raised by Members, not just of the lntercultural Council, but hundreds of Members of the ethnocultural community, that this information being published in advance of the Provincial Auditor's Report comes out- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Wo uld the Honourable Member please place her ques tion. Ms.

Hemphill: -wha t will the Min ister do to communicate both to the ethnocultural community and the public that the inf ormation that is coming out or that was presented then does not neces sarily make a commitment to what has happened with the financial records under the lntercultural Council? What will she do to remove the cloud? Mrs. Mitchelson: I called for the audit and that is removing the cloud of doubt that is out there in the general public and out there within the ethnocultural community. The Auditor is looking into the situation.

When he comes forward with his report that will be tabled, it will, fi rst of all, be dis cus sed with the ethnocultural commun ity. The people who I have indic ated are the fi rst prior ity in this whole review � process. Then it wi ll be tabled in the Legisla ture and ' avai lable for the media and for the Opposit ion. * (14 00) Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Logan, with a final supplem entary ques tion. Ms. Hemphill: A last final suppleme ntary, Mr. Speaker. 1 think the point I am trying to make is that si nce this review is under way- Mr. Speaker: Without a

preamble. Ms. Hemphill: -d oes the Min ister not beli eve that this was a highly unusual procedure, to have allowed the release of a document to the public that contains financial in formation that was presen tly under review by the Audit or, prior to the review bei ng completed? Mrs. Mitchelson: That informa tion was released to the public at a June meeting by the lntercultural Council 557 so the facts were out on the table and it was public, open in formation. Ambulance Services Funding Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selk irk) : Mr. Sp eak er, my ques tion is to the Fi rst Min ister (Mr. Filmon).

I want to acknowledge on behalf of the Mem bers of the Opposition the dedic ated service that some 1, 600 ambula nce pers onnel provi de to the cit izens of Manito ba. In view of the fact that this Government has put forward the proposition that they believe in un iversal access to the health care system regardless of how good the hospital you have, if you arrive there brain dead or too late that facil ity is not of equal access to you if your ambu lance service cannot get you there. My question to the Fi rst Minis ter (Mr.

Filmon) is that gi ven the ove rall departmental funding in the Department of Health is incr easi ng by 8.9 percent this year, why is it that the Fi rst Min ister is so frugal in only providing less than 3 percent in crease to sup port the ambulance services which are the very front-line runners of allowing equal access to Manitobans to our health care sys tem? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I thank the Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Charles) for quoting the words of our Health Min ister (Mr. Orchard) when he was a Health critic about the ambula nce servic e-if you arrive there br ain dead or too late.

The fact of the matter is that is why the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) expressed his concern for fundin g for health care for the ambulance system and our health care sys tem. When he comes back she can place that quest ion with the Min ister of Health, so that he may ans wer dir ectly what measures he is prepared to take to ensure that ambula nce services in Manitoba are adequa tely funde d. Health Care Funding Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): My quest ion is to the Fi rst Min ister (Mr. Fi lmon). Then does this Government have no concern over the health care system in Manitoba?

We are the lowest in Canada at 2.24 percent. Will this Fi rst Min ister indic ate whether he will be willing to come up to the same per capita rating as the other Cons ervative Governments in Canada are? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I have just indic ated to the Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Charles) that long before she ever dreamed of entering the provincial Legisla ture that matter was raised and raised very often by Members of the Conservative Party when they were in Opposi tion. Those same statistics that she quoted were used. She is prob ably even referring to old Ha ns ards from the ques tions that we asked .

Those were good ques tions and so I compliment her for recognizing that. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I sugge st to her that there will be an opportunity to discuss that matter and debate

TUesda� August 16, 1988 it with the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) in the course of the review of his Estimates or in further Question Periods, and he will have ans wers for her as to what he is prepared to do on behalf of this Government in supporting adequate funding for the ambulance services In Manitob a. Ambulance Services Strike Mn. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): I am looking for good answers. What will the Arst Min ister do if the ambulance services In rural Manitoba, inde ed, perhaps the City of Winnip eg, go on st rike, as they are considering in the month of September? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): She has found a good ques tion, so she will find good answers when she puts those quest ions to the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Orchard). She has asked a hypothetical question -the Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Charles) -a bout what would we do If they go on strike. The reality is they have not gone on strike and that is not a situa tion, obvi ously, that you start a negotiation with by telling people that you have a conti ngency plan in place, or that you are going to do this or you are going to do that. That is not the way di scus sions are carried out in good faith with the ambu lance workers.

We hope to be able to provide them with the kind of suppor t that will ensure they do not go on strike. Vocational Schools Bonding Regulations Mr. Jim Maloway (E imwo od): Mr. Speak er, my ques tion is for the Min ister of Education (Mr. Derkach) and concerns the bond ing reg ula tions for the approximately 44 vocational schools in this province. On Jul y 5, the John Casabla nca Modeling and Fashion Career College folded without any prior notice. Why has the Min ister not yet called the $5,000 se curity bond posted by the school? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I do want to provide the acc urate information for the Member, so therefore, when I research it, I will take the quest ion as notice and come back to the Member with an accurate answer for that ques tion. M� Maloway: There are Members, the Member for Spri ngfield (Mr. Roch) who would like to make light of a very ser ious situa tion. I do not think that is very good at all. The losses in this particula r case now are well over $5,000 and may be much higher in the end. Mr. Sp eaker: Order , ple ase ; order , please. The Honourable Member with a ques tion. Mr.

Maloway: The result being that the students will be getting only a few cents to the dollar; in view of that fact, will the Min ister consider compensa ting the students for these substantial losses over and above the $5,000 in the bond? M� Derkach: As I had indic ated to the Member before, that Is a matter that we will in vest iga te. When the 558 answers are in their complete form, I will report back to the Member. Mr. Maloway: A final suppleme ntary to the same Minis ter.

Gi ven that the 44 voca tional schools in Manitoba, from Herzing Institutes, hairdressing schools, to Success Angus Busi ness College must increase their secur ity bonds to the level specified in Regulation 182/ 88 of The Priv ate Vocation Schools Act prior to Jul y 1, will the Min ister- Mr. Speake r: Order . Ord er, please. Does the Honourable Member have a ques tion? Will you kindly place it? Mr. Maloway: My quest ion: will the Min ister ask his department to ask these 44 schools to incr ease their bonds immedia tely rather than waiting till July 1, 1989? Mr.

Derkach: I will take that question as notice, as well, and we will deal with the matter in an appropriate fashion. Mental Health Day Programs Ms. Avis Gray (EIIice): This Government attempts to emphasize in their speeches a balanced approach to services to the mentally handicapped. We ll, Mr. Speaker, rather than balanc ed services, I maintain there are virtually no services. To date, there is a moratorium on the entrance of the mentally hand icapped into communi ty da y programs. Will the Minis ter of Community Services (Mrs.

Oles on) immedia tely remove this moratorium so that mentally handicapped adults can reap essential benefits from day program participa tion? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Comm unity Services): If there is a moratori um, and I do not agree that there is, then it has to do with the flow of funding right now which will be alleviated when we get through the Es tima te period. Ms. Gray: If the Min ister of Community Services (Mrs.

Oleson) belie ves that there is a moratorium, perhaps she could tell this House then, why WASO, a we ll respected day program, a workshop in East Kildonan, currently has a waiting lis t of 10 mentally handic apped indi viduals and they have been told by the Government they cannot admit those ind ividuals into day programs because there are no dol lars? Mrs. Oleson: I will take that question as notice for the Member and get back to her as soon as I can. Ms. Gray: My second supplementary for the Fi rst Min ister (Mr. Filmon).

Could this Min ister tell the House how he is going to ensur e that sen ior civil servants and his Min isters of departments will, and when will they, be aware of ver y impo rtant key issues such as moratoriums on day programs? I find this very unus ual that there is no awareness of these important issues. An Honourable Member: Hear, hear!

Tuesda� August 16, 1988 * (1410 ) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, if the Member for Elli ce is sugges ting that every single memo, every single letter that goes out of the department, out of any area, a department that has thousands of civil servants work ing for it and if any area anywhere in the department sends out a memo or a response to a letter or a phone call in res ponse to an inquir y, that the Mini ster should be knowledgeable about every single word that is uttered out of her department, then she does not know what goes on in Government.

You are going to have to try a Jot harder than that, Avis. Affirmative Action Coordinator Vacancy Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minis ter of Labour (Mr. Con nery).

Gi ven the very grave concern expressed today by the Manitoba Advisor y Council on the Status of Wo men, which is an advisory body to the Provincial Government, given the concern expressed about the deci sion by the Min ister of Labour not to fi ll the vacant position of Affirma tive Action Coordina tor with the Civil Service Commission, wi ll the Minis ter of Labour ind icate to this Hous e if he has consulted with the various target groups who are very concerned about Affirma tive Action with the women of the province, the dis abled , the Na tive communi ty and the visible minor ity communi ty before making this deci sion, and if he is not, whether or not he is prepared to at least consult with the advisor y committee put in place previously to consult on this very kind of matter.

Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Labour): I would be pleased and I have met with very many various groups and any group that wants to meet with me is very welcome in our office. The question at hand is should we fill the vacant position and of course we had di scussi ons about this. We dis cussed it with the Civil Service as to how best we could deliver the Affi rmative Action program. The Member should know that the position had been filled under the previous Government and had been very ineffective.

While they had this position filled, I looked up the numbers to see how they were doing as far as their targets were concerned . If the targets were filled, we would have to lay off 847 men and hire 847 women. We would have to hire 1 ,000 Native people. We are short 980 di sabled people and we are also short 6 87 visi ble mino rities, so obvious ly, with that position fil led the program did not work. We are very concerned that the Affirma tive Action program work and be effective. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr.

Speaker, given the fact that all studies, particularly those done by the Manitoba Advisor y Council on the Status of Women, which as I said is an advisory body to Government, gi ven the fact that all those stu die s have ind icated that the decentralized model does not work, that one has to put teeth into the program, that being central ized coordi nation so that Deputy Min isters and managers of all departments are prepared to act exped itiously 559 and in a very concerted matter, will the Min ister of Labour take seriously the advice of the Manitoba Advisor y Council on the Status of Women as well as nu merous organ iza tions wi thin the multicu ltural community and reverse his decision and fill the vacant position of Affirmative Action Coordina tor in the Civil Service Commiss ion?

Mr. Connery: Mr. Speaker, we are very concerned about Affirmative Action. I have told this to the Member already. While that position was fille d, it was not effective. The program now is to have the various line departments report to a Deputy Min ister in charge of human resource management. This is a higher level than the position was before. We feel that working within the various departments on a line-by -line basis that we will ensur e that every department is aware of the needs of the Affirmative Action program. Only time will tell if we are more effective.

If the program is not being effective, I can assure you that we will make adjustments and , yes, I will be very welcome to meet with these various groups. I received a letter this morning asking for an opportunity to meet, and a reply will go out today tryi ng to set up a date to meet with that group. Pay Equity/ Affirmative Action Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Johns, with a final supplement ary. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to thank the Min ister for that answer, but I have a question out of great concern for the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

Gi ven the tact that so many groups who are not equal in our societ y-w omen, visi ble minorities, Natives and the di sabled -ha ve expressed grave concern about the decisions taken by this Government to date with respect to pay equi ty, with respect to affirmative action, will the Premier overrule the Min ister of Labour's (Mr. Con nery) decisions to date, put some teeth into these very important programs? Will he also give assurances to this House that no other female at the Deputy Minister level or Assistant Deputy Min ister level wi ll be fired ? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): I jus t want to respond to the Member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) by indic ating that, firstly , we are total ly committed to the implementation of the pay equity plan within the Civil Service of Manitoba, as we had agreed to it when we voted for the legisla tion a number of years ago, as we have continu ed to be committed to it.

I have met with Robe rta Ell is-G runfeld, I have met with others within the women's groups in Manitoba soci ety, ind icated our commitment that we should see pay equ ity firmly es tabl ished within the Government service of Manitoba in a way that is equitable and fai r and meaningful to all of our women so that they can have equality of ec onomic opportunity, and that the Civil Service can be leaders in the process so that the private sector can then take their lead from that.

We can have the program worked out in a way that ind icates that it can be worked out in a fair and equitable manner to all women, to all employers in Mani toba, and that is what we are doing.

Tuesda� August 16 , 1988 With respect to affi rmative action, I have again ind icated that we want the affi rmative action process to work favourably in Manitoba Civil Service, so that we get qualified people who represent mino rity groups being seen to be raised to various levels wi thin the Civil Service in accordance with their capabili ties and knowledge and backg round to ensure that they reflect the best of what is in Manitoba society.

That is people of all backgrounds, people of all capabil ities, people from all dir ections and all areas of Manitoba being well represented in a functional and im portant and in a contri buting manner wi thin the public service of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expir ed. NON-POL ITICAL STATEM ENTS Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet) : May I have leave of the Hous e to make a non-politic al sta tement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Hono urable Member for Lac du Bonnet have leave? (Agreed) Mr.

Praznik: I would ask the Members of this House to join with me in extending a warm welcome to the over 400 delegates from across Canada, who are in Wi nni peg this week to attend the 68th Annual National Convention of the Catholic Women's League of Canada. These delegates represent thousands of dedicated women from across our nation who devote countless hours of their time to the better ment of not only their respective paris hes but also of their communities. Their contri bution to assist ing those in need can su rely be said to make our community and our nation a better place to live.

I would ask you to join with me in welcoming them to our province and extending our best wishes for their convention. Ms. Jud y Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): I would like to ask the House for lea ve to make a non-pol itical statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave to make a non-polit ical state ment? (Agreed) Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I am pleased to rise in this Chamber and make a non-politi cal statement in relation to my hat that I wear as Sports critic for the NDP caucus. * (14 20) Today marks the beginning of the Manitoba Summer Games occurrin g in Pina wa and Beause jour.

These games feature athletes from across the provinc e and have inv olved literally hundreds of volunteers who have given their time and skills in pulling off such an impressive event. The members of the Conservative Government are yel lin g out it is tom orrow but, Mr. Speaker, the official opening of the games that I have referred to is today. The official beginni ng of these very important games is today, and I would lik e to be the fi rst to stand up and commend the thousands of 560 participa nts and volunteers for making these games possible.

I am sure all Members in this House will join me in congratulating these volunteers, as well as the many people inv olved in in itiating the games in these communities. In addition, I pers onally would like to congratulate the former Member for Lac du Bonnet, Clarence Baker, who as we all know worked very hard to ensure that the games would be held in these communities and convi ncing the provincial Government to fina ncially assist the games. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. James Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I wish to seek leave to make a non-polit ical state ment. Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honour able Min ister have leave? (Agreed) Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, I would ask all Members of the Hous e to join with me in congratulating Mr. Dale Goehring of Winn ipeg Breezy Bend Golf Course who, last Frid ay, won the Canad ian Junior Men's Golf Tournament in Kelowna, B.C. with a four-day, 72 hole total of 298. At 16 years old, it bodes well for the golfers of Mani toba, particularly the junior golfers and the junior program that is carried out amongs t the golf clubs in Wi nn ipeg. So, Mr. Speaker, I would ask that all Members join me in those congratulations.

Whil e I am on my feet, and again in a non-political vein, I would lik e to advise the Members of the House that the official open ing of the Manitoba Summer Games will be held tomorrow evening, an event in which I will partici pate. Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Labour): I would like permission to make a non-polit ical sta tement, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Min ister of Labour have leave? (Agreed) Mr. Connery: Mr.

Speaker, over the past weekend, there were two very important tournaments on, and two teams from Ma ni toba won very imp ortant championships. lt is just a coincidence they both come from Portage. Mr. Speaker, the Sports Stop Women's Team from Portage La Prairie captured the Manitoba Intermediate B Softball Championship and, especi ally important because it is of a larger nature, the Keystone Chiefs of the West ern Cana d ian Bantam Basebal l Championsh ip won the Western Canad ian. So, Mr.

Speaker, to those players who performed so well and to the coaches who were good coaches and to all of the participa nts who were in those tournaments, we should gi ve our congratulations. Mr. Speaker: I would like to caution all Hono urable Members when making non-politic al state ments, I see we are tread ing very close to the line. Rather than abus e the privi leges that are gi ven to an Honour able Member because leave is needed , therefore, I would just lik e to caution all Honour able Members.

Tuesda� August 16, 1988 ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE Mr. Spea ker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minis ter of Fi nance (Mr. Manness), sta nding in the name of the Honour able Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), who has 25 mi nutes remaining. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, yesterday when I started my speech on the Budget, I was pointing out some of the incons istencies we have seen from the Conser vatives over the last five months. In fact, it has been a rather in credible period in Manitoba politi cal history.

I outlined how the Conservatives, during debate on the last Budget of the former New Democratic Party Government, talked about cutting spen ding and cutting the deficit as their top priorities. I talked about how the Conservatives, when they were in the election, talked about cutting taxes or certainly impli ed that to the people of Manitoba in terms of indi viduals in this province, and how some few months later they have changed on both those scores. Now, I want to clarify that I am pleased that they have not gone ahead with the wholesale cutbacks that the Min ister of Fina nce (Mr.

Manness), when he was Opposition Fin ance critic, was talking about. I want to make that perfectly clear on the record that I think that would have been a di saster for this province if he had gone ahead with the 2.5 percent cutbacks, the $11 2 million that he talked about. So I am pleased with that, although I am a little puzzled. I am not however, pleased with the double talk we have seen from the Cons ervativ es on taxes, the implication to people that somehow, if they voted for the Con serv at ives -a nd many people in my cons tituency thought this.

They thought that somehow their Autopac and their ind ividual taxes would go down. We have seen in the short months we have seen this Government in office that, unless they happen to be a shareholder in lnco and I sup pose some in my cons tituen cy are, they get very little benefit out of the Con servative Government. As I sai d, in trying to trace how this conversion took place, the obvious fact came to me, and that was the fact that the big dif ference between the Conservatives really is whether they are in-be tween elections or they are during election campaigns.

In some ways, people might say, well this is in-b etween an election but I think, in many respects, the Conse rvatives have decided, because they are in a minority position and there could be an election at any time, that they are going to act like they do when they are in preparation for an election. That is important because, when they are during an election period, they talk about health and social programs and maintaining spend ing for Manitobans. They talk about tax breaks for Manitobans. That is dur ing ele ctions but, when they are in- between elections, we see things shif t qui te dramatical ly.

I was doing some research just overnight for my spee ch. The most in terest ing giveaway of what the real Tory strategy was at the time came from a comment made by the current Min ister of Fina nce (Mr. Manne ss) 561 when he was Finance critic for the Oppos ition, and it was not made in his spee ch. lt was made durin g the speech I gave, a comment to me from across the floor. I think it ind icates the bottom line of the Conservative approach in this Budget, of why the average Manitoban has not received any break from this Government. I was talking at the time about the Member for Morris (Mr.

Manness), the then Finance critic, talking about bor rowi ng, bor rowi ng, borr owi ng, borr owing. I sugge sted that he was more in terested in the ques tion of borrowing than maintaining or increasing health care. I made reference also to cutbacks in health care that had taken place under Sterling Lyon. The current Min ister of Finance (Mr. Manness) said -1 asked what is he sugges ting? The Minis ter of Fin ance sa id, tax for it, do not borrow it. In other words, he was sug ges ting that, if there was going to be spending on health programs, on social programs, it should be coming from taxes not borrowing.

I think we have seen a few short months later that was the real agenda of the Conservative Party. Even back then they knew that, if they formed Government, what would happen would be that the tax grab that they talked about would be maintained , in fact , contin ued by the Govern ment, by the Conser vatives because their real agenda was not to decrease taxes for the average cit izen in Manitoba but to maintain those taxes. Their real concern, their only concern was on the fiscal side, the financ ial questions, the borrowing, etc., and not for the average Manitoban.

I say that, and I can point once again to the fact that this is on the record in Ha nsard , and I would encourage people to read it, because that has been seen as the true agenda. Un fortunately that agenda, I do not think, is one that most Manitobans thought they were going to be getting as a resu lt of the election. As I sa id, there are some Conservatives who, lik e the Min ister of Fina nce (Mr. Manness) or cons ervative Conservatives, they stand up and they make no bones about it, the Min ister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), and I think he made no bone s about his true agenda.

I am not sur e if that is one that is in keeping with the majority of the people of Manitoba, but he at least said up front that he is in favour of taxes and decreasing the borrowi ng. That is fair enough. I think that is a fai r state ment on his part. I think ho wever, as I sa id, ther e are other Conservatives who sort of, to use an analogy of what is being talked about in the States right now by the President who talks about the L-word, there are some Cons ervativ es who are afraid to use the C-word , conservative.

They go to any lengths to attempt to appear anything but conservative in their actions, and I think they are the group that is in charge right now. They are the group that has persuaded Minis ters such as the Min ister of Labour (Mr. Conn ery) to get up and talk about how concerned he is about affirmative action, about working people, labour, when the people of the Province of Manitoba know clearly where that Mini ster stands on those types of issues.

That is the new strategy of this Government and that is, because they are in a minority pos ition, to pretend they are in election and run on a constant election footage. I think that is probably accurate.

TUesda� August 16 , 1988 Mr. Speaker, I want to get to affi rmative action because I find that, once again, the Mini ster of Labour (Mr. Conn ery) does not have any idea what he is talking about in regard to affirma tive action. If he would have looked at what has happened in a number of key areas, he would have seen the progress that took place. In fact, I am quite concerned that, despite for example the fact that there are no wholesale cutba cks in this Budget, the few areas that have been cutba ck are what I consider to be priority areas.

I think they talk a lot about the prior ities of this Government or the lack of priorities. I am critic for the Labour Department. I have gone through what has happened in the Labour Department, a department that is very im portant to the working people of this province, very important to women, to Native people, di sabled , the visible min oriti es, and it is one of the six departments that has been cut back. Let us look at what they have done.

Let us look at what has happened in this department, because I think it is an indic ation of what we would see on a broader scale if the true agenda of the Conservative Party was being enacted, in other words, if they were a majority position and did not feel that they had to pretend to be moderate. If they all owed the cons ervative Conservatives such as the Min ister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) to have their way and do what they would really like to, and that is engage in those kinds of wholesale cuts that we have heard talk from before from the Fin ance Min ister (Mr. Manne ss).

Let us look at what they have done. Let us talk about affirmative action. Progress was made in terms of affirmative action, and the Min ister of Labour (Mr. Connery) should check the figur es. He should look at the fact that, yes, there is need for a lot more hiring to ensure that affirmative action does succeed but he would also find that, in looking over the various periods, there was sign ificant hiring of Na tive people, of the di sabled , of visible mino rities.

In fact, more than 200 positions were filled in the year between 1986 and 1987 from the target groups, ind ica ting once again the fact that there was a priority given to affir mative action.

I think if he looked at the situa tion in terms of affirmative action, he would realize that to continue towards the targets that have been set, because targets have been set in terms of ensuring that women have 50 percent of the employment, that Nativ e people have 10 percent of the posit ions with the provincial Government, that the di sabled had 7.5 percent, and visible minorit ies have 6 percent, he would see that the only way to ensur e that would be to continue the position of the Affirma ti ve Action Coordina tor.

Unlike what the Min ister just said in Quest ion Period , the Affirmative Action Program was working. If he is arguing tha t it could work better, then I will certainly be more than happy to hear his ide as on how it could work better. I think that is an excellent proposal on his part. I do not think it will work better, in fact, I know it will not work better without that affirma tive action posit ion. We have seen what happened under the Sterling Lyon period when there was no progress on affirmative action, when we had the same structure as the Minis ter of Labour (Mr.

Con nery) has moved the 562 department to now. So we have seen that it does not work. Yet, this Min ister is suggesting that we now spend another year to found out that, yes, once again it will not work. Once agai n, that speaks for the prio rities of this Govern ment. lt is fine for the Min ister to get up and talk about concern and it being a priority, the buzzwords of this new Conservative Govern ment, but his actions and the actions of his Government certainly ind icate that it is clearly not a priority with this Government. That is not the only area.

Let us talk about what this Government has talked about in terms of balance and labour relations. We ll, I look at this Budget, and 1 see $40 milli on in cuts of taxes for busi nesses. I see $1 50 million in additional revenue. Yet, it was only a few months ago, a few weeks ago as a matter of fact , that the Mini ster of Labour (Mr.

Conne ry) had the gall to say that he was cutting funding to the Labour Education Centre by $235,000, not even 1 percent of the amount that they have gi ven to busine sses as a result of the cuts in the payroll tax in thi s Budget, not even 1 percent, in fact less than 1 percent of the total busi ness tax cuts. He had the gall to get up and say that there was not the money avai lable when there clearly was.

I would have felt at least there was some greater in tegrity shown if the Min ister had had the guts to get up and say that this is part of the Government's agenda and say that they are not in terested in the Labour Educa tion Centre, which I feel has been a tremendous program for working people in this province, a program also in cidentally that has been used by many busi nesses.

During the Es timates of this Minis ter, 1 will go through some of the programs that have been developed by the Labour Educ ation Centre, some of the busine sses that have used its services, some of the many working people who have used it. 1 in tend to demons trate that the move by this Government was petty and vind ictive, that it was aimed stric tly-a poli tical vendetta agains t the labour movement agains t working people of this province because of the lack of supp ort they have received over the years. There clearly was the money available if the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Connery), if this Government had seen fit to be fai r to the working people of this province. * (1 430) We are see ing this in other areas too. We are see ing this Min ister's statements on Workers Compensa tion. We are seei ng quite clearly once again that the work ing people of this province have particular reason to be concerned about the agenda of this Government. 1 have said qui te clearly that I think the agenda of this Government on Workers Compensation is aimed strictly at the financial ques tions.

In fact, in the last couple of years, all I have heard from the Conservative Members in this House is talk about Workers Compensation Board fin ances, and no talk about the injur ed workers and their famil ies themselves. We have seen the Min ister of Labour (Mr. Conner

y) talk about changes that would have set back Workers Compensation 20 years. I hope he has had a chance to look at the implications of the changes he was talking

TUesda� August 16, 1988 about only a few months ago, back in May, because if they were introduc ed , they would have a devastat ing impact on the work ing people of this province. I hope that he will take the time that he has got now, gi ven the fact that he said he is going to delay introducing changes to The Workers' Compensation Act to research that area, to look into it and realize that he was wrong. I hope he will also take the time to read the King Report, because that report outlined many positiv e changes that this Mini ster should be in troducing in this Ses sion to improve Workers Compens ation.

I hope he wi ll look at them, because I think there are changes that will improve the situation for injur ed workers and their famil ies in this province and ensure far fairer trea tment, far better trea tment from the Wo rker s Compensa tion sys tem. Certai nly it is a system that is in need of reform. I would hope that the Min ister would move on the recommendations of that report. But once agai n, the ind ication of the agenda is rather concern ing.

We are se eing this Government talking about rolling back final offer selection legislation without even giving it a chance in practice, without even looking at it to see if it is working. I think if the Min ister of Labour (Mr. Canner

y) would take the time to research where final offer select ion has been used si nce it has been in troduced, he will find that in many cases it has provided a clear option to strikes. In fact, it has allowed the sett lement of di sputes without stri kes where strikes clearly would have taken place. I think it is a fai r piece of legisla tion. Yes, it is inno vative. Yes, it ha s not been tried on the scale it is being tried in Manitoba, but I do not see that as a reason to fear final offer sele ction. I see that as a reason for us her e in Manitoba to gi ve it a chance.

That is another way I am concerned about the real agenda of this Conservative Govern ment. Let us talk about pay equit y. Once agai n, if you look at the comparison between the Bud get that was introduc ed by the previous NDP Government and the comparison with this Budget, one will find that the amount that has been allocated for pay equ ity in the Budget has been decreased su bstant ially from the amount that was allocated by the NDP Budget back in February. That concerns me again because we are facing a situation in this province where women, on average, earn less than two-thirds the wages of men.

Yet this Government does not see fit to give that issue a pri ority by giving the Pay Equ ity Bureau the resources it needs to properly implement pay equ ity, fi rst in the public sector and later in the private sector. That talks a lot about the true commitment of this Government to women's issues in this province.

I think we are se eing qu ite clearly that, despite their words, the real Conservative agenda, the one that they do not like to be identi fied with more closely, the one that does not put any priority on pay equ ity, is one that will not, while it may not be expressed publicly to the same extent as the other aspects of the agenda, it is one that is clearly there. I have se en, in other areas that I am critic res ponsible for, the same process. There has not been much attention paid to the Co-op Dev elopment Depart ment, but it is another one that has been su bject to cuts by this Government.

I think once again it ind icates their 563 true biases. This is a Government that belie ves that the private sector, and the private sector alone, should be res ponsi ble for economic development. The New Democratic Party belie ves that the best economic development will occur when you have the combi nation of the public sector, the private sector and, yes, the co-op sector, because it is, I think, a legiti mate third sector. lt is one that has seen great growth in this province in the last number of years.

I think it is one that deserves a priorit y, ins tead of what this Govern ment has done which is to bury the Co-op Develop ment Department with the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs because I really believe it has been bu ried . Its effe ctiv ene ss will now be dimini shed and we will see the true impacts of the true policy of this Conservative Government. We are se eing the same in another area that I am responsible for -Y outh Poli cy. We are se eing no response to the major in crease in Youth Unemployment that took place this month.

We are se eing no ind ication that this Government has job creation strategy for young people, for that matter, for Manitobans as a whole. That is a matter that particularly concerns me. We have seen other true ind ica tions of the true agenda. I outlined in the Throne Speech my concern about what has happened with the Community Places Program and how the North in particular was sing led out for cutbacks by this Government. We are seeing in other areas, in terms of day care, the complete lack of dir ection tha t this Government has, another area that is of particular concern I know in my constituenc y.

We ll, we have seen the true Tory strategy. I am not sur e exactly what the Li beral strategy is, if they have one. I went back and tried in vain to determine from the state ments of the now Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs), what she truly stands for in terms of the Budgets of this province. Her speech back a few months ago talked only about the form that spend ing took place. There were no comments about what level the sp ending should be at, what prio rities, departments there should be. There was no mention of her economic strategy for this province.

In fact, I noticed basically in her speech on the Budget this time that the position put forward by the Li beral Party is not a clear pos ition. There is no clear ind ication as to where the Li beral Party stands on the budgetary and economic issues we face in this province. They seem to be in favour of all things : cutting the deficit; cutting taxes and inc reasing spe nding. We all kno w that cannot be done. I think it is incumb ent on the Li berals during this debate to put forward which one of those they want , because they cannot have all three. That is impossible.

I suspect there are Li beral Members of this Hous e who do have a clear ide a. I would hope that they would st and and during the Budget Debate ind icate clearly where they st and, because I think it is incumb ent on people to do. You know, I think that the New Democratic Party has done that. I think we have indic ated what we would have done. We ind icated back during the election in

Tuesda� August 16 , 1988 terms of the fiscal situation fa cing the province. I can tell you that had we known of the $1 50 milli on in extra revenue, Mr. Speaker, had we known at the time the Budget was being in troduced , I think there would have been a substantially di fferent Budget. Believe you me, when you have to talk to the people of the Province of Manitoba and lis ten to their real concerns, you get the message. We got the message. Yes, people could say the previous Government made many mistakes.

I acknowledged that in the Throne Sp eech and I acknowledged the fact that the New Democratic Party has to lis ten and learn from those mis takes. We were clear. We said that the priority had to be towards reducing the in come tax load for the average wage earner in Manitoba, not for the busi nesses, but for the average wage earner. In fact, our Leader, during the election, when there was indic ation there would be about $75 million in additional revenue, talked about a cut of $54 milli on in in come taxes.

I can tell you that a lot of people were surpr ised when the other Parties in the election kept talking about the payroll tax. I went door to door, I talked to people and I never once had someone raise the issue of the payroll tax with me. The concern was with income taxes, the taxes facing the average in come earner in the Province of Manitoba. The Deputy Leader of the Li beral Party acknowledges that that was the concern . We ll, I think that there is a need on the part of this Min ister of Fina nce (Mr.

Manness) to recogni ze that the people of this province do not supp ort what he outlined a few months ago, the idea of taxi ng them to the hilt on the in come taxes. He perhaps should learn the same lesson that Mem bers of the previ ous Government learned , that I certainly learned by going door to door and talking to people and finding what the priorities of the people are. I think he should orient the priorities of this Go vernment towards those priorities. Let us look at this, I sup pose, as a rather unusual period in Manitoba political histor y. I think it is.

As I sa id, when I look at the contradictions we have seen from the Conservatives, when I look at this contradictory Budget, one that does not include the cuts that the Minis ter of Fin ance was ta lking about as being necessary only a few months and also does not include tax breaks for Manitobans. lt leaves us in a position of trying to figur e out where the Tories really st and. What their true agenda for Manitoba is.

As I sa id, I really feel that what we are se eing is not a true strategy for this province, but a tactical move by a Party that is right wing, is truly Conservative, would lik e to cut social sp ending but cannot because it is in a mino rity posit ion. We are sayi ng on the other hand, on the fiscal side, and I think probably a better ind ication of their true preference. The Min ister of Fin ance today said the top prior ity of his Party was to elimina te the payroll tax. That was the dir ect quote today in Ques tion Period. He started along that road.

I do not happen to agree with that, but at least there is a clear ind ication of where the Conservative Party st ands. lt certainly puts the object ive observer in the position of being confused by the various signals emanating from this Government. 564 * (1 440) As I said, the Li berals are equally unclear as to where they truly st and. I remember during the election -a nd the Deputy Leader of the Li beral Party can correct me if I am wrong- but the Leader of the Opposition said she was going to elimina te the payroll tax in three years. I believe that was the di rect quote.

She then, when she was pressed on this, ind icated she did not really specify what years. I think there was a lot of disb elief by that state ment and I can see why. I know a lot of my cons tituents really did not take that promise by the Leader of the Li beral Party seriousl y. I notice in de bate on the Budget Speech this time around, she neglected to mention that stand by the Li beral Party to elimin ate the payroll tax in th ree years. I, of course, wonder why. I suspect it is because she found that the people of Manitoba jus t did not belie ve irr esponsi ble sta tements such as that.

I think she would be far better off sta ting clearly what the Li beral position is in this debate, and also I would say the Li beral position on the major issues of the day. I mentioned before the questions of affirmative action, about labour legisla tion, about pay equity. I will tell you what concerns me the most. In the few areas where we are se eing the true Conservative agenda in the Budget, the Li berals are sa ying, me too.

On each one of those issues, many of the issues in the Labour Department, for example, the Li berals have not stood up and sa id, no, that is unacceptable to cut back the affirma tive act ion position or to cut back the funding for pay equi ty. I wonder why. There will be those who will say it is because the Li beral Party of Manitoba is just as right wing as the Conservative Party. If that is not the case, it is up to them to indic ate clearly and on the record. But clearly, the fact that they are not opposing what right-wing manoeuvres there are taking place by this Min ister of Labour (Mr.

Cannery) and other Minis ters, I think, is a matter of concern to many people in this province. Because I would consider not putting affirmative action as a real priori ty or pay equity or rolling back labour legisla tion or rolling back Workers Compens ation to be part of the cla ssic right-wing agenda we have seen from Conservative Governments further east. But I think the NDP is in a position where our agenda is clear. I will say that it is an agenda that I do not measure by the numb er of seats that the New Democratic Party wins in any gi ven election.

I happen to view the New Democratic Party as much as a movement as a Party. I know from my own ind ividual cir cumstances that I will be fighting for greater social and economic justice, whether I am a Member of the Legisla ture or not, no matter what the result of one single election is. I will be fighting for what I see as the princip les that are part of that. I am not afraid to tell the people of the province about those princi ples, because I think there is the need for the democratic so cialis t or social democratic option. You can choose the des cription you want here in Manitoba.

I also believe there is a need for a Party that will be populis t and speak up for the concerns of the people of Manitoba. I am not ashamed to be part of the New Democratic Party in doing that. Seven years ago, when I was fi rst elected, I was told that you become less id ealistic as you become a

Tuesdai August 16, 1988 Member of the Legislature. I can truthfully say seven years later that I am probably more idealistic than I was in 1981. I may be an exception to the rule but, when I look at what people can do by working together, when I look at what people in my own constituency have done in a community that is only 30 years old by working together, I have great faith in the ability of people to achieve goals by working together . I guess that is where I get my political philosophy and my political approach from.

I have no doubt that, as people look back over this period, there will be one paradox that will strike them most strongly. That is the fact that, at the time when the New Democratic Party had reached its relative low , because certainly 12 seats is a low in this two-decade period, they will find a clear option being stated by the New Democratic Party for social and economic justice, speaking up for Native people , for the disadvantaged , for the handicapped, speaking up for women , the unemployed.

That is what I intend to do, to speak up for the disadvantaged of this province , to speak up for the ordinary citizens in my constituency and others. An Honourable Member: Taxpayers. Mr. Ashton: Yes, the taxpayers who for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) do not support his approach of taxing the little guy and then giving tax breaks to the major corporations .

The Minister of Finance can talk about that in this Budget, but I think , in the long run, he will find that his approach is not the approach of the people of Manitoba because the people of Manitoba are looking right now, I think, to the Party that will speak up for ordinary Manitobans. We are in a period of political flux . The one thing that I have no doubt about is that probably Conservatives may have a confused image, while they may not really have a consistent approach in this Budget, or the Liberals may not as well, but I know where the New Democratic Party stands .

I know where I stand as a Member of that Party. I am going to continue to speak up for the ordinary people of this province, the ordinary people of my constituency, the ordinary people of this province and Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr. Speaker, consider this picture. There is a baby elephant chained to a tree bear in mind it takes four years for eleph ant s to reach adult size. A full-grown elephant in its natural state can knock down any tree in the forest, but when this baby grows to adulthood, this particular baby elephant cannot even knock down a piece of wood, let alone the tree, or the chain .

This is because he has grown up learning that he cannot move the chain and the tree that has held him as a baby. I tell this story because the Conservatives on the opposite side have had years to mature as an Oppos ition and a Party, and they have had years to develop their philosophies, their goals, and a sense of direction. However, they do remind me of that baby elephant who lives with a chain around his leg.

There has been a golden opportunity for the Government, maturing as the Opposition, to break free of traditional bonds and chains to explore the forest and set a new 565 direction to create economic growth, while maintaining and truly enhancing and beiny creative with health and social serv ices. What chain has held the Conservatives from attempting to achieve much more, Mr. Speaker? A chain of insecurity, lack of progressive thinking, and an inexplicable bond that believes in the status quo .

That chain prevents us and prevents the Government from exploring the forest because they do remind us today of the baby elephant stand ing beside the tree with the chain. (Mr. Deputy Speaker, Mark Minenko, in the Chair .) Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Government presented a Budget to us on August 8 of this year, a Budget which followed a Throne Speech filled with promise and filled with hope . The Honourable Members on the opposite side see fit to lecture us about economic growth , deficit cutting, and how not to spend , spend . We do not argue that economic growth is paramount.

We do not argue that deficit reduction is important and that spend , spend is not the answer , but how you spend your dollars is important. Do not promise enhancement and creative innovation and expansion of programs in a Throne Speech , and then follow it with a Budget that clearly does not , by any stretch of the imagination , live up to those promises. Mr. Deputy Speaker, when we do ask for clarification of the Throne Speech and of the Budget, and when we probe for answers, what do we get?

We constantly have rhetoric from the opposite side : We have only been in the Government for three mon ths; wait till the Budget ; wait til l the Estimates . Well, some of that might be acceptable, but it is not us. It is the First Minister who called this Session for July 21 , 1988, and we would assume that in calling this Session he would be ensured that his Mini st ers would be able to take on full responsibilities of their departments.

It is the arrogance with which some of the Government Members on the opposite side continually , day by day, respond in Question Period that disturbs us-your First Min iste r today . One Honourable Member in this Legislative Assembly recently said, and I rea lly could not have said it better myself, so I will quote him: "We get answers that ooze with arrogance from the Members opposite in the Cabinet and it shows up everyday on the television screen as Question Period is being televised. So keep giving your arrogant answers to the people of Manitoba .

They are watching you ." Those words were said in this House on March 4, 1988. The orator, the Honourable Member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard). How quickly they forget. *

(1450) Let me refer to some specific items in the Budget , Mr. Deputy Speaker. I wanted to talk about affirmative action. We on this side of the House are very, very concerned about the Government's seemingly lack of understanding and knowledge of the whole concept of affirmative action. The Honourable Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission has said that it is important that equal opportunity and fair treatment be

Tuesda� August 16, 1988 gi ven to minor ity groups, Na ti ves, women, and the physically handicapped. However, this is not the intent of affirma ti ve action. We have to redress past wr ongs. lt is much more than giving fair and equ itable treat ment, and I do qu est ion whether the Mem bers oppo site und ers tand that concept. We are very concerned on this side of the House because a coord ina tor of Af firm ative Action -the position has not been filled . I have a lot of di fficulty with the Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) who has jus t sa id, "Yes, fill the posi tion." He, as part of the previous admin istra tion, gi ves a typical answer as to what the NDP Government did when they were in power. Put in a coordi nator and the problems are solved and the program will run on its own. We ll, it did not run on its own, even with a coordin ator before. lt takes much, much more than that. lt is incum bent upon this Government to ensure that a central ized affirmative action program which is very strong is implemented in the Civi l Service.

By leavi ng it up to ind ividual departments, what inevitably happens is that affi rmati ve action gets put on the bottom of the list. We all know that civil servants are taxed and worked very hard in their day-to-day work and what will be left to the last - affirmative action. The Honourable Min ister for the Civil Service (Mr. Conner

y) talked about only time will tell. We ll, I say to this House, that is a wonder ful method of evaluation of a program-onl y time will tell. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Honour able Government House Leader, (Mr. McCrae) in his response to the Budget Address, chirped about how wonderful it was that RCMP service would be restored to Res ton. What about other areas of this province. What about restoring service to Gr and Bea ch? Does one have to be represented on the front benches of this Govern ment to get any service?

This same Member spoke about the Liberal plan to divest McKenzie Seeds and chastised us for supposed inconsistencies about McKenzie Seeds and Manfor. There are no in consistencies in our policies. We are concerned about Manfor. Manfor employs hundreds and hundreds of people in The Pas, Mani toba. Wha t comprehensive plans does this Government have to ensure that the needs of those employees are met? We had a plan with McKenzie Seeds to ensure that those employees in Brandon would be looked after. Agai n, I asked the opposite side of the House, let us keep McKenzie Seeds.

Very interes ting, si nce it happens to be in Brandon West, the same constitue ncy as the Government House Leader (Mr. McCrae). I would like to address a few comments regarding the Budget in the area of the Department of Community Services. For the informa tion of the other side of the House, because it has been obvious to this point that they are not very aware of what goes on in the Department of Community Services, I would like to gi ve them some in formation about Child and Family Services. Cas eloads are very, very high.

The average case load for a Child and Family Services worker who deals with 566 family situations and abuse cases, physical and sexual abuse cases every day, is over 40. The average optimal cas eload should be 30 to 35. What measu res has this Government taken to ensure that Child and Family Ser vices Agencie s are going to receive adeq uate funding so that they can carry out the basic maintenance mandatory services? lt is a very long-term answer the Honourable Min ister from Arthur (Mr. Downey) says less abus e-a very long-term answer. In the interim , we have to protect our children.

This side of the House certainl y agrees with the need for communi ty based services. I have some di fficulty in the Budget when it mentions what services are going to there for the communi ty based child and family services agencies. How much of a priority is prevention and is treatment of the physical and sex ually abus ed children? Wha t dollars are going to be going to those agencies so they can carry out their mandate? What about foster parents?

Only in the last week, after much lobb ying by the Foster Parents Assoc ia tion, Child and Family Services agencies, and this side of the House has the Government perhaps begun to lis ten to the Foster Parents Asso ciation? Foster parents are a vital, vital resource for delivering appropria te child and family services. lt is the most economical and desirable form of altern ate care for children. lt is imp erativ e that the Go vern ment es tablish a good relationship with the Manitoba foster parents.

To suggest that their admin istrative grant be reduced, when in fact that particular agency is an umbrella organization and recruits foster parents in this province, is totally unacceptable. The Honour able Member from Arthur (Mr. Downey) talks about where are you going to put your dollars and having to make tough decisions. Well, I sup pose if I had the choice between fixing some potholes and repairing a courthouse in Minn edosa or caring for our children I would have to choose our children.

Respite care, again, the opposite side of the Hous e has had policies intr oduced where respite care was not avai lable for people in the community. There is a lot of di fficulty in the Department of Community Services because of the past and previ ous ad min istra tion regarding lack of accountabil ity and policy di rection.

Yes, the funds and the dollars have been out of control. lt is incumb ent upon this Government in their Budget to really examine the accountabil ity measures in the Department of Communi ty Services and ensure that regions have a commitment accounting system where they know where their dollars are being spent. I quest ion how important community services is to this particular department. I have a lot of difficulty when the Premier of the province (Mr. Filmon) makes light of key policy decisions where there are moratoriums on entry into day programs.

I am sure Manitoba Council and Rehabilitation Wo rkshops and the workshops in the Cit y of Winni peg would be very interested to know exactly what priority this Government places on day programs for the mentally handicapped. Maybe we could, if the Fi rst Minis ter is in teres ted, I could talk to him after and explain to him the difference between a memo and a key policy decision. In reviewing the Budget and looking at services for the mentally handicapped in the community, I ask this

Tuesda� August 16 , 1988 Government to consider developing a philosophy as to where they are going with bala nced services in the com mun ity . The previous admin istrat ion had an extremis t approach in that if you developed a group home in the community and happened to have more than six beds per group home, rather than fill those two extra beds and provide service to someone from the ins tituti on, they would remain empty. Ha s the Min ister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleso

n) looked at the exis ting group homes in the City of Winnip eg and in Manit oba to determine if there are beds out there where there are actual vacancies? I encourage her to do so. The Budget does not seem to add ress staff years for regional services for the mentally handicapped. The salaries have increased and some of the budgets have in creas ed, but when you look at it you can tell there are salar y incr eases, some pay equity in creases within that, and maybe one or two SYs per region.

I question whether in this time with increased case loads for the mentally hand icapped and in crea ting a balanc ed approach between ins titution and community, if those workers out there can adequately deliver the services when there are no new resources. • (1 500) In reference to the day care, and certainly the NDP and ourselves have continually asked this Government what specific plans are in place. We sti ll do not know by looking at the Budget, how many new day care spaces are there for children?

What about the day care cent res out there who have received app roval in principle to open a new day care, but they have not received that final approval because they are wait ing for the Estima tes to be completed? What do we tell those parents out there, such as parents who have children on waiting lists at Meadows West Day Care, when they have to find an alterna tive form of day care by September 1 because they do not know if that day care will open? What do we tell those parents out there-w ait for the Budget?

Unfortunately, it places a lot of stress on families, and sur ely the Government on the other side of the House could make some recommendations and has some idea of whether in fact those day cares can open as they have been promised . The Throne Speech talked about health and social services -o ne or two paragraphs in the whole spe ech which ind icates to me about the importance that this Government places on health and social services . I direct my responses specifically to the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and the Department of Healt h.

The fi rst ind ication that we have about the priority for Mental Health Services was the Bud get Address, which had about two lin es about Mental Health Services. The seco nd ind ica tion we had was the main Budget which was tabled in this House which does not gi ve a signif icant incr ease to Mental Health Services, if in fact this Government was willing to really move ahead, look at the reviews that had been done in Mental Health Services and actually put real dollars into the programs.

The third ind ication we have about the low prior ity in Mental Health Services is a reluctance by the Min ister 567 of Health to answer questions about what is happening to the Director of Mental Health Services for this province? He was hedging on the answers in Ques tion Period, and I am wondering what kind of messages he is send ing out to this side of the House, to community agencies and groups, to mental health recipi ents, about the value of Mental Health Services. 1t took a long time in this province to even get to the point where there was a Mental Health Di rectorate. They have had a long hard struggle.

To now suddenly say that we are not going to fill the position, we will leave that dir ectorship vaca nt, I ques tion again the message that this Government is sen ding out to the people of Manitoba. We talk about Respite care for the mentally handicapped, but what about Respite care for mental health reci pients? What kin d of comprehensiv e plans are contained within the Budget for Mental Health Services?

I say to you, none. lt is almost a xerox copy of the previous NDP admin istra tion. lt accounts for a few in creases in salaries, a few dollars here and there for maybe the odd pilot project, but no real dollars for real comprehensiv e long-term planning and actual implementation. We have had lots of reviews in the areas of mental health si nce 1975, when the White Paper on Mental Health Services was tabled -a number of reviews. 1t is time to qui te reviewing and start putting into practice. lt is impossi ble for that to be done gi ven the incr eases in this Budget in those services. Mr.

Speaker, when you look at the regional operations in the Department of He alth, and you look at, oh, there has been an incr ease in salaries of some $2 million, you think, good , we are going to get an in crease in services, but when you really start calculating that in crease and say we have got 10 regions in the Province of Mani toba; we have 3 or 4 percent salary incr eases in September; we have some pay equity incr eases that we have to take into account; and you di vide that between mental health, home care, home economics and Public Health Services, what do you have?

One or two token SYs at the most in all of those program areas. So what priority does mental health really have? Who is going to deliver the service if there are no mental health workers? Who is going to del iver all the health promotion services that this Government pays lip service to? Who is going to deliv er the home care services in this province, because we kno w the caseloads incr ease by 5 percent or 7 percent every year? Where is that in this Budget? lt is not there.

I question whether the Government on the other side or whether the previous admin istration actually knows what health promotion and disease prevention really are. lt is always so easy for Gov ernments to pay lip service to the concept. I wou ld rather have the Government be honest and say, no, we are not goi ng to put real dollars into health promotion because we cannot afford to. We are not going to do it. Better to say that and be honest than to say oh, yes, it is a very important prior ity with this Government, and then what do you do about it? You pay lip service to it.

How are you going to reconcile the incr ease in early dis charges from our hospitals in the City of Winn ipeg and across Manitoba when it is the public health nurses in the community who must provide the service? How

TUesda� August 16, 1988 are they going to provide that service for early discharges and, as well, assume an increased emphasis in health promotion? lt cannot be done on the resources they have, it cannot be done. We see from the Budget there are incr eases in communicable dis ease control for AID S educa tion very laudable, but AIDS is only one dis ease. The whole area of communicable disease control has never been gi ven enough priority with any Government. We are not jus t talking about treatment. We are talking about couns elling and we are also talking about prevention.

Who is going to provide real preventative suppor t services to sc hool children , to young famil ies and to adults? Usually , it is public health nurses and home economists who do that but they are overburdened already with the work they have to do, and there are certainly no new resources or incr eases in staf fing in this Budget so that they would be able to actually provide better health promotion services. Communi cable dis ease control has received extra dollars. That is at di rectorate level.

There are no in creases for communicable di sease in any other parts of the department that actually provide the service delivery, so all the dollars that go into the di rectorate for probably mass education and more su pervisors to talk and research communi cable dis ease, but who is actually going to deliver the service and do the work? When you look at the home care budget, we see that there is a 24 percent in crease in home care assistance. That is an increase that has been noted in the last few years. I questioned the Min ister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) in his stat ements about the home care program being fina ncially out of control, so what does he do? He puts 24 percent more increase into the home care assistance and gives no increases in the rest of the home care system. A 24 percent increase in the home care syste m's budget wi ll not deal with the di fficulti es that home care is facing in the regions. If that side of the Government knew, had any knowledge of the home care program and how it operates, they would know exact ly what to do with their dol lars. There has been an increase in the Budget for personal care homes.

This Government is always purporting that we give them advice and consultation and in formation. Here is a piece of advice and in formation for the Mini ster of Health (Mr. Orchard). Keep in mind that there are actually vacancies right now in personal care homes in Wi nnip eg. Some pers onal care homes have 10 to 12 vacancies. I note a ques tion mark on some Members' foreheads. Talk to the Manitoba Health Se rvices Commis sio n, talk to the people from the personal care homes who run them and find out why, because there are beds that are avai lable at a Level 1 and a Level 2.

What we are fi ndin g now is that people who need to go into personal care homes are at a much higher level of care, Level 3 and Level 4. Lower levels of cared people can be maintained in the community. What is this Government going to do to work with the adminis trators and the staff of the personal care homes to look at what they can do about those vac ancies and those em pty beds? Wha t is this Government going to do? Talk to the personal care home ad min istrators.

Wo rk with Manitoba Health 568 Services Commission and find out what you can do about those vacant beds. lt is probably going to mean inc reasing the staff level of some of those personal care homes because there are such complex needs of those indi viduals. * (1 51 0) I have to make a few comments to the Min ister of Government Services (Mr. Albert Driedger). lt is nic e to repair the Min nedosa Court House, but what about the neglect of the past 10 years to a few community services and health di stric t offices?

We have an office in East Kildo nan which has attempted, through the previous adminis tration and I am sure will be attempting with this admin istra tion, to actually get the staff moved out of those premis es. There are 15 to 20 staff who work out of a basement which is like a zoo. lt has bugs , it has mice, it is damp. The absenteeism rate is very high, and we actually teach prenatal classes in that bas ement. I certainly hope there is never a fire there because, as the fir e in spector has sa id, there is only one exit out of that basement and it is right beside the stai rway.

If there were ever a fire in the stai rway, nobody would get out. The previous admin istra tion refused to deal with the problem and look for alterna te space. I am as king the Min ister of Government Services (Mr. Albert Driedger) to take a look at these deplorable office conditions and do some thing about it. You talk about staff morale on the other side of the House.

That would be a wonderful proactive method to really show to those health profes sionals that you are concerned about their health and that you are concerned about the health of communi ty people, mothers who bring their bab ies to the basement to have them examined, pregnant couples who go down to the basement and sit through three hours where they have the heaters plugged in when it is 90 above outside because it is so cold in the basem ent. I ask the Minis ter of Government Services to consider looking at new office space for 14 00 Hend erson Hig hway. The Honourable Minis ter of Fina nce (Mr.

Manness) has asked me how much money have I spent so far. If the department or if the Government on the opposite side would actually implement the real concept of what better management is and get rid of the fina ncial mism anagement that is going on in some of their departments such as Health and Community Services, you would be sa ving a lot of dollars.- (I nterject ion) - Set up the meeting, and I will be glad to tell you in detail where the spen ding can be reduced in Health and Communi ty Services. In fact, I have made some offers already.

The Government respons es to date, responses on the Throne Speech and responses on the Budget Speech, are weak . They go merrily along thinking that everything is wonderful, not a care in the world, because their Budget is an exci ting document, a fine pie ce of craftsm anship. Then we ask this Go vernment tough, far-rea ching ques tions, and what are their answers? it reminds me of the scen ario between two of God's creatures, the frog and the centipede, the latter being

Tuesda~ August 16, 1988 this Government which displays at least 100 appendages, each appendage an argument or a rationalization for this Budget. I quote: "A centipede was quite happy until a frog in fun said, 'Pray, which leg comes after which?' This raised his mind to such a pitch he lay distracted in the ditch , considering how to run." Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): It is a pleasure to rise and speak in support of the new Budget. I congratulate the Finance Minister (Mr. Manness) and the Cabinet on bringing in a Budget that is both responsible and sensitive to the needs of Manitobans .

It reflects the concerns raised by Manitobans and promises made during the recent election campaign by Members on this side of the House . One of the first acts of the Government was to commission an independent audit of the financial state of this province . The results of the first phase of that audit have been released and certainly justified the step. Some Opposition Members dwell on the manner in which this came about. I would hope that they study the results. Manitobans now have a much more accurate sense of the total debt of this province.

It is not enough just to address the general purpose debt , which was $5.3 billion at the end of the last fiscal year, but also the liabilities and debt of Manitoba Properties Inc., the debt of the Crown corporations, and the valuation of debt issued in foreign currencies . This increases the total debt by $1.3 billion. The Winnipeg Free Press captured this in their editorial, that the Pawley Government's failure to follow accepted accounting procedures led to the provinc ial debt being understated by $1 billion. During the past six years, the general purpose debt has tripled and interest costs have quadrupled .

In 1981- 82, the cost of servicing the debt was 5.2 percent of total revenue and, at the present time, it is 12.5 percent. This spiralling debt is the greatest threat to our social and economic programs . If this were allowed to continue, we would have seen a greater increase in taxes to pay for this debt . The Manitoba economy cannot continue to be stimulated by expenditures based on debt.

The Brandon Sun, which is the major newspaper in my area, captured this , that the main change in. the Budget Address is in philosophy, as the Conservatives have moved to change the focus of job creation in Manitoba from the Government-funded initiatives to that of relying on the small- and medium-sized business sector to create jobs.

Probably the most significant recommendation in the review was to change the accounting policy to recognize losses when they occur, to record foreign currency gains and the losses in the provincial financial position on a more current basis, and to consolidate accounts related to the general Government operations. This Government is committed to regaining control of this debt and thereby the growth of interest rates. We must reduce and work towards eliminating the province's annual deficit. There are some specific areas of the Budget that I would like to comment on at this time.

Certainly, 569 agriculture is recognized in this Budget as one of the most important industries in our Manitoba economy . The impact of tough times in the agricultural economy are already impacting on the small communities and the trading centres in Manitoba . Higher milk prices is just one example of this. In the last few days , Manitoba consumers will be paying five cents more for a litre of milk . This reflects the dramatic increase in the price of feed caused by the drought. The new Budget indicates that there will be $115 million spent on agriculture, an increase of 50 percent.

Some $18.3 million is earmarked for drought assistance . Most of this money will go to finance programs announced earlier this summer for livestock producers . Grain producers will receive money under Crop Insurance and Western Grain Stabilization programs. At this time, it seems premature to make a decision on additional drought aid, but you can be sure that we will not be making Crop Insurance retroactive. •

(1520) When Members opposite indicate that the Government does not understand the farm situation , it has a hollow ring to it. Let me assure you that this Government is committed to helping the rural economy and it recognizes the economic spin -offs that occur from a sound farm economy . The flooding, the drought, and other accidents and conditions of nature, which from time to time beset those whose livelihood depend on the climate and the environment, can be sure that this Government will do everything possible to assist them.

This Government acted very quickly with the onset of the drought to put into place a committee of Ministers who have monitored the drought situation and have taken action on it. The Budget also includes $100,000 to open a rural Research Institute at Brandon University. I fully support this and hope that valuable research on rural life can be done to improve the quality of life for rural Manitobans. Hopefully this is the start of some major research at Brandon University. The other major announcement that has been well received is the start to reduce school taxes on farm land .

This Budget calls for a 25 percent reduction . Twelve million dollars has been designated for this initiative . Nothing seems as unfair to the farm community as the high taxes farmers pay to local school divisions because of the amount of farm land that they own. The cost of education to a farmer who owns two sections of land is extremely high and what compounds the problem is that the people living in neighbouring villages pay a lot less for the education of their sons and daughters. This Budget, is a major step forward in addressing that concern and this is a topic that has been well received in the rural area.

The rural municipalities have found much to be happy about in this Budget. These are the grassroot representatives of the population of rural Manitoba. The School Tax Remittance Program has been revamped after consultation with school divisions and municipal governments. This is a fine example of the

TUesda� August 16 , 1988 manner in which the various levels of government can work together in a cooperative and constructiv e way. In the past , many school di visions had to borrow to cover operating costs, while municip alities would earn inte rest on the school taxes until they turn it over to the school di vision. Under this new program, taxes collected by the due date will be remitted by the end of the following month and at the end of each month thereafter. Also the water tax is being elimina ted to the delight of the people and the municipa l councils in rural Manitoba.

Next I would like to turn my attention to the part of the Budget dealing with education. The education budget has been increased by 3.3 percent over last year, plus the addition of some benefits from the accelerated remittance of school taxes. Education takes 17.2 percent of the provincial Budget. Educa tion has been and will continue to be a major draw on the provincial Budget. This is a sign ificant amount. I look forward to further cuts in the deficit and the provincial debt so some of the terrible amount currently being spent on int erest -$ 580 million a year- can be redirected towards education.

There are many issues in education dealing with curric ulum, with programmed deliver y, with policy, and these will be dealt with on an ongoing basis. This Go vernment is commi tted to consulta tion with the major players in the education game, with the teachers, the students, parents and the trustees in Manitoba. This Budg et has also allo cated $4.5 millio n for di stance education. There are some in terest ing things happen ing in dis tance educa tion. This should be exami ned as a new way to deliver a program to students who do not have access to a teacher or to a program.

What is particularly intriguing about di stance education is that it is such a low cost method of delivering a program. There are two good examples of this offered in western Manitoba. The fi rst that I would mention is the Wawanesa program. The Wawanesa project is a project which offers calculus and computer science over the Minago Hookup, using a telephone conferenc e call on a computer. These courses are offered simu ltaneously to up to 30 students in perhaps six or eight dif ferent locations.

This .i s a pilot project that has been ongoing for a number of years and it is one that is worth st udying as schools in the remote areas get smaller and smalle r. lt is a way of delivering a program in areas where there is a small enrollment. 1t is some thing that this Government should certainly take a look at and will be taking a look at. A companion program is one offered by Assi nib oine Community College in Brandon, which offers courses in farm accounting and busine ss education by a similar method.

Again, I would emphasize that this is a low cost method of delivering programs over great distances to students who would oth erwise not have this opportunity. lt cuts down on the busing that is requi red for students. lt means that students do not have to be relocated. They can take these courses by di stance education. 570 I would lik e to also mention, in the Budget, there is money set aside for a Task Force on Literacy which will help pin point the Mani tobans who are functiona lly ill iterate.

There have been previous stud ies on this, and we know that there are large numbers of people in our society who are functionall y illiterate. But are these the graduates of our programs that currently exist? In most cases, that is not true. These are students who have dropped out of school along the way for a variety of reasons. They are people who have been sea sonal workers. These are new arrivals in Manitoba, but they are ill iterate, and they have a very di fficult time in achievi ng a job.

There is a tremendous job to do in ident ifying these people, in providing them with a form of education which will make them employable on a permanent basis. I think this was a small part of the Budget, but a very sign ificant one, and this Task Force on Lite racy could go a long way to remedy some of the problems in our soci ety. I would lik e to mention Hig hways, and the Hig hways budget next. This is a long-neg lected item in recent Manitoba Budgets. No one can seriously argue this is not a prior ity item in Manitoba today.

The additional $7 milli on for road construction is a modest incr ease, but an area that will have to get more attention in future Budgets. There has been a lack of attention given to Manitoba highways, and that is a budget that has not kept pace. As the Bud gets of Manitoba have incr eased over the last five and six years, one that has fallen seriously behind is the money allotted for highways. We have heard of the major work that is planned for Hig hway 75. There is currently work going on on the Trans Canada Hig hway and also another major highway, the Yellowhead.

What is not lost on this Go vernment is the amount of work to be done on numerous provincial roads throughout Mani toba. Much of that work cannot be done this year but, in subsequent Budgets, Hig hways will be given a much higher profile. I commend the Min ister of Fin ance (Mr. Manness) for taking the ini tiative to roll back the payroll tax, and I would lik e to again refer to an editorial in the Brandon Sun. I quote: "The elimina tion of the payroll tax burden on half of Manitoba busine sses in one fell swoop is an impressive accompli shment." That is what the people of Manitoba are sayi ng.

This tax was a major disi ncentive for small busine sses to operate in Mani toba. This will affect 3, 700 small busine sses who are paying 2.25 percent tax on their company payroll. They will be exempt. In addition, another 1, 400 busine sses will see their taxes reduced. Simila rly, the tax holiday offered to new small busine sses opening in the province will create the type of climate that will encou rage busi nesses to again consider Manitoba as a good place to locate. In addition, the concept of multi-year budgeti ng will be in troduced in the next fis cal year.

This type of long range planning is long ove rdue. lt will allo w the Government to have more control over Government spen ding with a view to further deficit reduction. lt will giv e the Government an opportunity to ana!yze past Budgets, the current Budget, and project for future years.

TUesda� August 16 , 1988 The Budget calls for an exp enditur e of $1. 5 billion for quality health care. That is an incr ease of 9 percent. This is 31. 8 percent of our total Budget. A large part of the incr eases will go to cover the cost of contract se ttlements to doctors and nurses, contracts that were settled by the previous Government. We have heard in recent ti mes some of the inequiti es, some of the problems in the health care system. These are things which will be debated in the Esti mates.

I think the answer to a lot of the ques tions raised will be answered there. • (1 530) The need for improving and upgrading our hospitals and personal care homes is an ongoing concern. But there are a number of new ini tia tives annou nced there that I would like to deal with. The new ini tia tives announced are worthy of comment. The Health Advisory Network has been portrayed as jus t another study. The health care field and the attendant problems are very volatile. We need consulta tion with all the players to adopt an approach that will successfu lly carry us into the 21s t Centu ry.

I would like to mention the $10 0,000 pledge for the Youth Drug Ab use Program and that this has been well received. Nothing confounds parents, educators and those in the helping professions more than the steady rise of drug and alcohol related problems with our youth. Strong efforts must be made in this area to reverse this trend. More must be done in the area of prevention to avoid the high costs related to solving prob lems after addiction has occurred. The thir d measure mentio ned under the Health bud get is $1 50,000 for ind ustrial health promotion. lt is another item that comes as an ounce of prevention.

The number of cases before the Workers' Compensation Board is sta ggeri ng. While there have been many problems associated with that program, it is very positiv e to see that this Government is tak ing the init iative to promote good health and a good work environment. Ju st a couple of other areas that I would like to mention. The previous speaker mentioned the RCMP detachments that have been reopened in rural Manitoba, specifically at Res ton.

The RCMP are an in stitution in rural Manitoba and the reduction by the previous Government showed a lack of recognition of the fact that there are large areas that have to be covered by more di stant detachments. The reopening of the Reston detachment is a sign that this Government is aware of the concerns and needs of rural Manitoba. Tourism is another area that was highlighted in the Budget-$1 million has been in cluded in the Budget for new initia tives in tourism marketing. We have just seen the completion of another highly successful Folklorama event in the City of Wi nnip eg.

This, of course, is a major tourist attraction. The sum mer months see hundreds of events across the province which help to bring tour ists to Mani toba. This Government recognizes the importance of the touris t ind ustry in all parts of Manitoba. lt is pres ently the third leading ind ustry in our province, but the potential is 571 unlimi ted. An in creased emphasis on touris t promotion will assist Mani toba to capture a greater share of the national and in ternational market. In closi ng, I would like to just comment on some of the attitudes reflected in the Budget.

Certainly the attitude of deficit reduction. was very clear, and it is one which has been well received by Manitobans. This is the fi rst step towards debt reduction. The tax relief for small busine sses is a very clear signal that the Manitoba economy cannot continue to be buoyed up by Government sp ending and we must look for small busine sses to create these jobs in Manitoba. A more equitable way of col lecting the educa tion levy on proper ty has been in trod uced and has been well received by rural Manitobans.

The Budget also reflects the high priority on health car e, educ ation and social services that this Government has. Above all, I would emphasize that we are doing these things in consultation with the people of the Province of Manitoba. These are the posit ive things that Manitobans see in this Budget and these Budget items · I have no trouble in supporting. In conclusio n, I would hope that the Mem bers opposite realize that all of the aims and objectives put forth by our Party cannot be realized in our first Budget.

This is a start toward deficit reduction and fiscal res ponsi bilit y. lt is a Budget that you should support at this time. Thank you. Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): My frien ds, it is with pleasure that I ris e to respond to the financial master plan that my Conservative colleagues have unvei led. I compliment the new Member, the Honourable Member across, for the fine, articula te, very we ll-d efi ned representation he made. There are a number of points that I can agree with on his represe ntation. So I compliment him as a new Member in the House, as I am, in being able to deliv er such a fine spee ch.

I think that we all recognize the di ffi culty of the financial machine and the in ertia that has been developed through history, of trying to provide all things to all people by the former admin istrat ion, all things to all of those people that they found deservi ng. Unfortunately, far too frequently they tended to live in their riding, tended to be people that they could support or that they found were supporting them political ly.

I think-i t would seem to me that there must be a fairer way of distributing the monies that are availabl e, through the taxpayers, to admin ister the things that we, as people, want in this province. Being a newcomer to the House I find the process of budgeti ng, and the process of trying to understand the budgeting a di fficult one te> follow at times. I find that in my role as a critic of Indus try, Trade and Technology that even past studies, history does not help me unders tand how they arrived at where they are, because they have amalgama ted those two departments. Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): That is the adjustment vote. That is what that one does. That is why it is adj usted .

TUesdaJ August 16, 1988 Mr. Angus: I see. I thank the Honou rable Fina nce Minis ter (Mr. Mannes

s) for bringing that to my attention. lt sti ll makes it di ffi cult when two or three days before we are actually to get into the Es tima tes, and that is the fi rst one, I have no detai led informa tion on the break down of those departments or the assi milation of those departments. So it is bad enough that I am unfortunately a new Member to the House, a new Member in a role of being a critic of a very, very important department, and legiti mately trying to do my best to be cons tructive in my criticism, to try and do what I perceive my role as Opposition to be.

That is to bring to the attention of the Government the flaws that I see in their Budget, the flaws that I see in their legislation, and the flaws that I see in their activity with hopes that they will address those. But I find it very, very di fficult when I have got figu res that are indi cated , actual exp enditu res that dif fer drast ically from Budget projections, and then both of those figu res when tied together are totally dif ferent, because of the fact that they have amalgamated two departments.

I think if the Ho nourable Members opposite want, as I have heard a numb er of them suggest , constructive criticism and positiv e input on how to do things di fferent ly, one of the things that they might be prepared to do is start with the crit ics and tell us how they arrived at these particu lar figur es, what their rationale was. * (15 40) I find it very di fficult in terms of arguing specifics of a Budget that is made up when I am on the outside, forced to ask qu es tions to penet rate, to dr ag information and sys tems, theories and projections out of the Govern ment.

I think there must be an easier way of cooperating. lt see ms to me also that reducing this to simple terms- I look at the managing of a household in terms of the Budget that the Honour able Finance Mini ster (Mr. Manne ss) has brought in. He has got a very large Hous e and he has a certain amount of revenue that comes in. lt see ms to me that he is looking at doing certain things with the money that he has coming in, to try and create a house that everybody wants to live in.

But it see ms to me that it is with difficulty that I understand he is trying to fault the former admin istra tion for a Budget that they brought in when 1 see so many simila rities. The Budget and, I am sure, in the Es timates, we will find that it is di fferent. I hope we will find that it is di fferent. I hope that we find there is new dir ection. But it puts me in a very awkward position to be able to stand up and say I think that this Budget is a positiv e step for Manitoba. I cannot say that because a few months ago I ran an election campaign on the fact that it was not a very posit ive Budget.

So I am finding myself wanting to try and live in this Hous e with my honourable colleagues across the way. I want to get into dis cussing whether or not we have enough money to paint the fence, or fix the gra ss, or redo the founda tion of the house. Yet I have to stand back and say how much money are we sp end ing on these things? Where is it coming fro

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-18
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 18.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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