PRELH1INARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. MONDAY, MAY 16, 1977

~1ay 16, 1977 The House met at 10:00 A.~ •. ~rr. Sneaker in the Chair. ~~. SPEAKER: Order, Please! Tape No, 2710 PPESE~I~G PETITIONS: '~R. SPEA ... T<ER: The han, member for Port de Grave, ~ifR. DAHE: Mr.

Speaker, I beg }eave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Butlerville, at Shearstown, in the district of Port de Grave, It is signed by 164 residents,which I think is about ninety per cent of those concerned,and NM - 1 the prayer of the petition is as follmvs; "TiJ'e, the undersigned, citizerts of Butlerville, Shearsto~, in the district of Port de Grave, humbly request and respectfully ask our provincial goven..ment, through its Department of Transportation and Communications, to give us serious consideration this Summer 1977 1-rith regard to getting three-quarters of a mile paved through our community," MR..

NEARY : Hear ! Hear: • :1R. DAT.-JE: "Towards that end we humbly and respectfully submit this petition to the· han. House of Assembly and humbly and sincerely ask our provincial government to commit and make funds available to have this stretch of road paved, that is from Big Bridge to the end of Butlerville." A little background, actually, ~fr, Sneaker, to this petition, some years ago the government tried chip seal in the Province about ten or twelve years ago - ~.fR. NE.-\RY: It did not \Jerk. ~·~.

DA\·lE: - and this is one of the sections that were tried and it did not live uo to the exnectations and each and everv year t~rough Vinter action, through frost, through - actually this type of material has not been able to withstand Winter conditions. Each and every year there is considerable patching has to be done. And the road now· is in a denlorable condition and the cost involved would be very little, very little

~fay 16, 1977 Tape -:-ro, 2 710 ~·~. DAHE: u'9grading would be required, The minister vJOuld have some idea actually to the cost just to lav the black top and if they are going to utilize the asphalt plant at Springfield, which is about six miles from Butlerville, this

section could be done at a rather small cost involved, ~. NEARY: No more than they should do, HR. DA'!flE: I do trust that the minister will receive this petition on behalf of the citizens concerned. I do trust that funds will be made available this Summer and I give it my most wholehearted support and ask that it be received and laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. NEARY: It is little enough to do, They should do it. ~ • SPEA:.T(ER: ~. YOUNG: The hon, member for Harbour Grace, I would like to support this petition.

I know that the area up until 1975 was in the district of Harbour Grace and I saw over the weekend there a letter in the Compass., signed by the residents,or at least this committee,and personally I know all of the members of that committee and it is like the petition reauests that this three-quarters of a mile goes through the community:of Butlerville and the state of the chip seal was an experiment and no doubt about it the road is in a very, very deplorable condition. ·,

May 16, 1977 Tape 2711 PK - 1 Mr. Young: I do support the petition and I trust that the minister will give every consideration if funds are available to have that three-quarters of a mile paved. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NrulliY: It is amusing to see the way that government members, Sir, get up and support petitions. What we want is not support, we want action. Members who get up on that side of the House and support petitions should be ready to resign if the prayer of the petition is not carried out, - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. NEARY: - and not be hypocritical. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to the bon. gentleman that in speaking to a petition, he may support it and remark on the material allegation, but the previous remarks I would regard as debating. ~ffi. NEARY: Thank you, Your Honour. If members have strong feelings, Sir, on the prayer of this petition on either side of the House they must be prepared to back them up.

Unfortunately I am not in a position to do anything about it, If I were I would bring pressure to bear on the Minister of Transportation and Communications, and if the minister did not do it and I had strong feelings on it I would resign, leave, I would not support tbat government any longer. So, Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation at all, Sir, in supporting the prayer of the petition .It is only for three- quarters of a mile of road. Apparently it was three-quarters of a mile that was experimented with a few years ago in using the chip seal technique. We had three miles done over on Bell Island at that time.

It did not work. It was a waste of the taxpayers money. I do not know who was responsible for it, whose brainchild it was, but it was a terrible waste of money. It kept the dust down for one year and that was it. And I hope there will be no more repeat performances of that kind of extravagance and waste. So I have

May 16, 1977 Tape 2711 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: no hesitation at all, Sir, in supporting the prayer of the petition. MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr.

Speaker, just a brief comment on the petition signed by 160 people of Butlerville, and to clarify a point as well that I sincerely hope that by the minister responsible for any petition brought to the House of Assembly by him commenting on a petition does not automatically mean that what the prayer of the petition is asking for will be carried out immediately, and the same goes for any backbencher on the government side speaking in support or commenting on any petition.

So in my comment on the petition I will say as I said in many other petitions bought forward to the House of Assembly asking for road work to be carried out is that the petition and the prayer of the petition will be given every consideration by the department concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. E . ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I could say just a brief word in support of the petition presented by the gentleman for Port de Grave (Mr. Dawe), I think . it is a reasonable request and I think it is little enough to ask for.

The Minister of Transportation and Communications has before the Committee of Supply a request, I believe, for $15 million, I am speaking from memory now, but $15 millions for road paving and purposes to that end this year. I do not know what it cost to paye three-quarters of a mile of road, what $25,000 , · $30,000 possibly? more than that? Perhaps $40,000, perhaps $50,000? I do not know what it cost to - MR. MORGAN: About $60,000. MR. ROBERTS: The minister~ say about $60,000.

But whatever the cost it will have to be borne sooner or later, and it will be less this year than it \vill be next year if we are to judge by the past few years in the escalation in prices. I think these people have a case on the merits, and I think the case is all the stronger because~as the gentleman for Port de Grave said 1 this was one of the

May 16, 1977 Tape 2711 PK - 3 dr. Roberts: areas where the chip seal experiment was used. Well the chip seal experiment was an effort underta~en, gosh I do not know when, I guess early in the sixties or the mid-sixties, in an effort to see if there wa~ any alternative to black top • It turned out not to be a success. There was a stretch down, 1 believe, by Georges Brook, between Georges Brook and Clarenville, or Georges Brook and Lethbridge, as the gentleman from Trinity North (Mr.

Brett), I am sure 1 is familiar with it, it was tried as an experiment, I believe, it was tried as a suggestion of t,he official, it does not matter, it did not work - AN HON. MEMBER: ~fR . ROBERTS: It was suppose: to substitute for black top. Yes. It did not prove to be a substitute, and indeed we have no found substitute for black top, for asphalt; it may not be perfect and it certainly is dear, and getting dearer all of the time, but it has turned out to be the only acceptable way of paving roads in this Province • So I think

Yay 16, 1977 Tape no. 2712 Page 1 - r".s :~r. P.oberts . the fact that t~1ese people a numter of yec.rs 2.fO sort of becc.I!'.e guinec. pigs - and the experi!:!ent die! not c.rork - gives them an even stronger clc.im. Ancl. there are a number of people affected directly by the road. One hundred and sixty ~eople have signed the petition. I think that is a reasonable reauest, and I 1•70uld hope the mL"'lister, r.-1hen he C01!1.es to carve up the I!'.oney that has been allocc.ted to him this year, heeds the recuest of these people .in Port de Grave. I ,,,ould say to the member for Port de Grave n~~r. Da1·re), ~rr.

Speaker, that he ~.;rill knm.;r whether anything is to be done or not, because he 'vill be invited in to discuss this as have all members on the other sj.C.e but none on this side. Anc! 1:ve are seeing this year what amounts to the most partisan, political programme ever seen, the most partisan, political progra~Ee ever seen. Gentle~en on the other side, Sir, have been invited to-by the minister or by his officials - to submft, say, if you got X thousand dollars, X hundred thousand dollars, tell us ·hovr you -.;.;rant it spent. }lR. PECKFOP.D: YP.. SPEAKEP: :tvrp". PE r"t.FOPJI: On a point of order, Yr. Speaker.

A point of order has corr.e up. It seems to me that the present line that the Leader of the Opposition is taking is debate, that it has very little to do with the relevancy of the request made by the han. me!!1ber for Port de Grave (l'-fr, Tiawe) in his petition. So, therefore, I suggest that the hon. Lea~er of the Opposition, his last number of phrases are co!!1pletely out of order. To that point of order, '·'r. Spea1·er. The hon. Lea~er of the Opposition. I AJTI. spec>.kinr.- Lc surport of 8. petition tbE>t see~~s so~e pave~ent, and T a~ su~gestin~ to the gentle~an froD Port de Crave C'r. ::'a,...;

e) r,,:ho 1Jresentec the petition, and to the T.rouse, t'be ~Tav jn uhich the governnent allocate their pavement rroEie .s, and I t~in~-:

~'ay 16, 1977 Tape no. 2 712 Pc>.f'e 2 - !"S ~'r. l?_cberts. ttat ncthin~ coul~ be more in orrler, nothing cou~d be ~ere relevant, Sir. I am :c0t cebating.If I ·Fere cl.ehc>.ting, I 1-muld be denouncin.~ the government for this partisan interference, but I a1!l not. I ai!! reerely pointing out that government meT!'bers have been invited to the minister's office or to those of his officials and said, You have X hundred thousand dollars, and how is it to be spent this year? Pnd members on the other siC.e have told me - and if hon. gentle"l!'.en Hish, I r.rill name. them.

But I submit, Sir, since I am speakin~ to the point of orC.er, that Hhat I am saying is in order . The governi!'.ent 's action is not in order. But M.Y raising the matter, Sir, in this way, I believe, is in order. ~-'1'_. SPEAKEP.: On the potnt of orcter. It Fas subnitterl, I 1:-·elieve, that the hon. gentlenan 's remarks broached order on the grounds of relevancy. I a!!'. not sure ~·Jl1ether the !'latter of debate r,ras referred to. The question of relevancy >-muld not be a factor in ruling it out o.f order. I think the remarks were relevant. Ro;.rever, relevancy is not all that counts.

It is debate, and I would regard the last couple or so sentences of the hon. Leader of the Opposition as a debate, and 1-TOuld ask him to confine his remarks to speaking on the I!'.aterial allegations. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~T. • P.OEERTS : Thank you, ~1r. Speaker, and I ~dll have another opportunity to denounce the government's tactics.

I do support the petition, Sir, and I co hope that the gentleman from Port ~-e Grave, 1J7ho may have good reason to expect this kind of treat!".ent, and I hope he does, I hope he will have an invitation to !"eet r.rith the !'.'linister, and ,,,ith the minister's officials to discuss the request of these !.Jeorle. I "\Trite letters to the minister, and do not even rret the courtesy of an anst·Jer. I hone the hon. _'!entle!"an r·rill be e.st·_ec to ~eet ,,T:.th the sinister, to ~iscuss this, anrl I hope these peorle - ?-'r. S!'eaker, on a point of orcer. Poir.t of orcer.

Ye.y 16, 19 77 TCl.fe no. 2712 Page 3 - ms ''u_. '~OB.fcA~1 : If t~e hen. p.:entleman is fOing to be de':Jating-, w~_ich he see!!)s to be G.oing nm-T , debatine t;,.e ~etition, I sincerely hope that he Hi.ll quote me an<! any cornments ~ade about me correctly. The han. gentle!l1a.n, the Opposition Leader and LTl fact any of his colleagues who have ever -.:-rritten to my office always got a reply. ~!R. ROBEF.TS: ~rr. Speaker, to that point of order. First of all I am not debating. I may be baiting the han. minister, but that is not debating.

Secondly, I can produce letters, a ntJ.Inber of letters to the hon. gentleman rN"hich have not been ans>vered, including or_e I wrote him last year - and I -.:-lill table it if he wants - asking him to table details of the r,ray in 1vhich his department gave out snow clearing contracts -v;hich has never even been aclr.nor.rledge let alone ansr.;rereC.. ~'B. . SPE,.-\..JZE?: :MP.. ROBERTS : Order, please! And if the hon. gentleman ~omuld li!o:e others, I will produce them, Sir. ~ • SPEAKEr.: Order, please!

I a!!'. not sure if the han. gentleman to !!lY left got up on a specific point of order or 1;,;hether he used that opportunity to make an explanation. H.ot-7ever, the han. e:en tlem?.n 's five minutes have expired. ~A~p'". ROBERTS : I have been harassed by han. gentlemen opposite. ~"R. SPEP.Y..EP: The han. minister. t'P.. MUP.PP.Y : 1'r. Speaker, if I may I t-rould like to rise to support this petition, too, because I 'have my reasons, because ~.;rhen I r.;ras in a place other than I am nm.;, I am sure that this petition "<:·ras a!T'ong manv '-1.unc1refls that I presentee. before this Foese.

I do not ~-:noH :i.f the hon. STJeaker - pe.rha!'IS I sr.oulc not refresh his TI'.eT':'.ory on certain matters either. Dut I a~ sure t~at this is one particular one that I brought to t'he attentjon of :;overn~ent at that ti!"e

:1ay 16 , 19 77 Tape 2713 AH-1 requesting that some action be taken. So at that time I felt that it •1as not too great an expenditure of o.one~r, and t:<e need 1-1as gre3.t, so I 1.vill bring the same message to the present ~- 1inister of Hi g h~.;ays if the money is available at all I would certainly like to see it available and help t~ese people out who have been suffering for a great rr:any years. And I think I am referring to nine or ten years ago. AN3J.{E.RS TO OUE$TIONS FOR \VRICH NOTICE HAS RF.:EN r. TVFN HR. NEARY: The han.

Hinister of ~-1ines and Energy -cvas going to get me the answer to a question I asked him about the bus service provided by Newfoundland Hydro. Does the minister have the infoTiilation? ~-iR. SPEAKER: If the hon. gentleman has a..11. ans-.;.,rer I will recognize him but I do not see anybody standing so I 'vill ~ o on to routine Order ~o. 6, Oral Questions. ?:"ill.. SH.:U.UlOOD : The han ~linister of Tourism l-ias standing. l'lR. SPEAKER: Well perhaps - was the han. gentle1:1an standing to give an answer? HR. HICKEY: Hr. Speaker I was attempted to - 1fR. SPEMI?-.: Do ,.,.e have leave to revert? ~ill..

HICKEY: A point of privilege, Hr. Speaker, to correct an

article in the ?aner. :_..p,, ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the point of order that is not in order,Sir, A point of privilege must be raised at the earliest possible moment and that was surely t-7hen the House met t"'llenty minutes ago, Sr. :-fR. lUCKEY: lir. Speaker to that -point of order - Order please! I tab~ cognizance of '7hat t~e l:on. Leader of th9 Cl:>r>osition said,but I can::ot actuall•: a:::~nit a '.:'oi::t o: order during a point of privi_lee:e. ~loH one of t:-::e t"':!O natters ::l..Otl. gentler::an ~etti:1~ up that :Ce ;!ill r-resur::ably r>Jis''. to

~iay 16 ,l'J77 Te.pe 2713 .\]f-2 estc.blisj_ have to establish, if it is a genuine poin t of urivile.~e 'muld 1)e t:,_e prima facie~ and t~1e fact that he is raising at the earliest opportunity, but until I ~ave ~eard '1ir:: I could not make any decision on t~1at. ~ffi. . HICKEY: ~i rs. Spea ker, I could h ave interrupted t he han. Leader of the Opposition but out of courtesy I did not. I arrived in my seat after the time to rise on a point of privilege s·o this is my first opportunit y . It is not a big issue, : lr. Speaker, it is just to correct a headline in the Evening Telegram of the 1:veekend.

Not a big issue but I suggest a rather important one and I want to correct the headline. I certainly do not want it to be attributed to me. It simply says "'P'luorid found in rabbit - Hickey says test will prove no health hazard in Long Harbour:' But, Mr. Speaker,I VJish to point out that kind of headline, that headline is in fact just ludicrous.

No one in their sane mind 1v-ould make such a statement because that really covers '"hatever test may be done for the ne~t five or ten years. ~~written statementlwhich I read in the House on Friday~simply said that To date - that the tests done to date, there was no reason to be concerned from a health point of vie~v or there ~vas no health hazard. I at: no time indicated by inferance or alluded . to any such statement that future tests would prove no health hazard. I am not prepared to . mal-:e that statement and I ~-muld like the paper to correct it. ~ 1R.

SPEAKER: I do not think it is required for the Chair to make • any decision on the han. gentleman's remarks under point of ~rivilege. As han. members are aware it is very Hell subsidized in Hay, page 343 " In regard to the explanation of personal matters the House is usuall y indulgent a.1·1.d Hill permit a statement of that character to be made ~vit h out a_'l y question bein g before the House '.' • 'D ~'.!...o.\.. Oral questions? ·m •. : U.:\.. SPEAKER: Just about to come to it.

lLay 16,1977 Tape 271 3 .:lJi- 3 : 1R, SPEJ'lZIR: ~·!e h ave reverted to number five so I should dis pose of that in t he inter ~ . ORAL nuES T IO:~S :.-fR. SPE.:'\KJ:R: lion . Leader of t he Opposition . }!R. ROBERTS : A question for the :unister of Trans portation and CoUlmunications . I am sure he ~as antici pated this; if he :.as not he ought to have .

He is familiar with the reports that have been on t he radio an d in the ne~.;spapers this morning allegin g that the Royal Cornnission on Transoortation in \vhich this government have participated, may - and I stress the t~ord may _ may recommend the removal of rail freight service across this Island .

T,-Jould the mini ster please assure the Rouse tha t he v1ill ensure that this is not so ? and I say, Sir, this government have participated in this Royal Commisssion, they were consulted, and they were involved and i ndeed they participate d in the announcement . t\nd could the minister also tell us ~·7hat · steps he has taken to ensure ::ha t the Royal Cow.u ssion does not turn into a execution squad f or th e raih1ay in this Province? ~·fR . SPEA..T{ER: Ron. minister . HR. ~ORGAN: Hr. Speaker ,

May 16, 1977, Tape 2714, Page 1 -- apb nR. l'IORGAN: this morning 1 s reports w·hich apparently are cooing out of some interview with an official of the 1-'IOT, number one, and an interview with the head of the Com..rnission of enquiry in this Province into transportation as appointed by the federal government, in the national ne't;spaper the Globe and r1ail anQ picked up by the local papers here, to say the least, it is very annoying and disturbing to me, not only the attitude of the Ministry of Transport official, but also, if quoted correctly - the statement made: and I have not made contact with Dr.

Sullivan to confirm this so I have to say .if he is quoted correctly - in saying that his commission could very well recommend the abandonment of the C.N.Railway in the Province, I would say, to say the least, it is very premature on the part of the head of a Commission of Enquiry that has just been appointed and getting down to ivork to make that kind of an assumption.

It is the purpose of the co~mission, it was agreed upon by the federal and provincial adminstrations~that the commission would be holding public hearings throughout the Province and getting the views and opinions and suggestions and ideas from all concerned citizens of this Province. Until that is done, I cannot see, I cannot see for the life of me how the head of that commission can draiv an assumption the way he drew it,if he is quoted correctly in the national newspapers. !v"..R. SPEAKER: questioner. i·1R. ROBERTS: A supplementary, the original £·1r. Speaker, the minister has said, If Dr.

Sullivan was quoted correctly, and that is a reasonable thing to say. \1e have all had experience with being misquoted and we know it can happen. ~ill the minister get in touch with Dr. Sullivan to ascertain

May 16, 1977, Tape 2714, Page 2 -- apb HR. ROBERTS: exactly ~vhat is involved) whether Dr. Sullivan was quoted correctly or not? And whether it is in the contemplation of this commission to recommend-as I say, to become an execution squad­ to recommend the removal of rail freight service, being all we have, we do not have any rail passenger service, but rail freight service across this Province? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Hinister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Yes, .Hr. Speaker.

I have already talked to the Director of Transportation for the Province this morning upon reading the reports and I have asked him to make contact with the commission to determine whether or not the statements made by Dr. Sullivan, as head of the commission, are correct or not, and to determine why he made that kind of a statement without getting the opinions and views of all Newfoundlanders concerned. The latter part of the original question, Mr. Speaker, as well was in connection with statements made by the MOT people regarding the subsidies paid to C.N.R. in the Province.

We have known for some time the attitude of the Federal Ministry of Transport, in fact the Federal Cabinet, with regards to the subsidies paid for transportation in this Province, particularly the marine Transportation subsidies. As earlier outlined to the House of Assembly, they attempted to,in the month of March, remove the subsidies totally on all the coastal boat ferry services, or coastal ferries around the Province. Now they feel that the Gulf ferries are dsinko" to quote them in the papers, for the federal government subsidies almost totalling $100 million in this region.

My attitude to that is, and I am sure the attitude of this aru~inistration, that the Gulf ferry services are an essential link, in fact a part of

May 16, 1977, Tape 2714, Page 3 -- apb the Trans-Canada Highway network, and under our constitution there is no way we will tolerate a reduction in the level of services in -that service across our Gulf. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPE.P-..KER: A supplementary. The hon. the member for LaPoile followed by the member for 1dindsor - Buchans, -HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell the House whether the provincial government will be preparing a long-term transportation plan which will include the operation of the Canadian National Railway in this Province?

Will the minister be presenting a brief to the royal commission making recommendations on how they can upgrade and update the rail freight service in this Province so it can, not only compete with road transportation, but will lower the amount of subsidies that are required to keep it operating? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, we will be not only putting , forward a brief regarding the operations of CNR in the Province, and the CN Railway, but in fact a very detailed comprehensive brief to the Commission of Enquiry involving all aspects and all modes of transport in this Province. At this time I cannot disclose the details of that brief to be made.

In fact, I would call upon, and I would like to see all organized groups in this Province, Chambers of Co~rnerce, councils, service Clubs, any organizations throughout this Province, put forward their vie~ . .vs as well to this Com..rnission of Enquiry which I sincerely hope has not drawn their conclusions automatically to date. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. the

May 16, 1977, Tape 2714, Page 4 -- apb MR. NEARY: minister reassure the House that under no circumstances will the railway freight

~-fay 16, 1977 Tape No. Z715 ~- 1 ~~. ~TEARY: service in this Province be sacrificed to get a few paltry dollars to upgrade the Trans Canada Eighlvay ? :.ffi., SPEA_XER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR.. ~ORGA_'l': Mr. Speaker, I 1rTish as the minister responsible in this Province that I could assure that, The fact is this matter is completely under jurisdiction and control of the federal level of government.

But I will say that at no time, at no time in the past · discussions and negotiations we have had with Ottawa involving the upgrading necessary on the Trans~Canada Highway have we even discussed the possibility of trading off the C~ Railway .· or the activity of the CNR's rail freight activity in the Province for the necessary funds, the upgrading of the Trans-Canada Highway. MR.

SPEAKER: The non. member for Twillingate, a supplementary. ~1R • S¥ALUTOO~ : rvould the minister tell the House \-1hethe!." he has any knowledge, or if he has heard even as much as a rumour to the effect that the Parliament of Canada are to petition the • Parliament of the United Kingdom that the constitution be changed in resnect of Canada's obligation to Newfoundland in the raih1ay?

In view of the fact that the matter is covered in Canada's Constitution, the British North America Act, the part of it including the terms of union, under which Canada entrusts to the CNF. the operation of a railway system~ the CNR are merely doing as they are told. Is there any suggestion of amending that, repealing it? MR. SPEA_~R: The hon. ~linister of Transportation and Communications. ~IR. ~[Q-g,GAN: That question, ~·fr, Speaker, I will take up.der advisement. ~-~R. ROBERTS: A further ~upplementary. 'ffi.. SPEP. ... ,'.ZE::\: A further supnlementary, ___ ..;._....;::..;:=.::.:._ the hon.

Leader of the O~position. :m. ROB'!::RTS: Perhaps the minister might also \vish to take uncer advisement the question of ~,rhether or not the consitition can be changed unilaterally. Hy understanding is it cannot ~.;hen it ccmes to matters between the ~rovincial and the federal 8atters. It can

~~ay 16, 1977 Tape ~To. 2715 N~1 - 2 ) fR. ROBERTS: be changed unilaterally only ~vithin the federal goveriTQent's o~~- co~~etence, for examnle.the renresentation ' ) . in the Eouse of Commons, a current example. But the minister might wish to check into that. I had not ~eard the report to which the gentleman from THillingate refers - ~fR. SHALL HOOD: A rumour I heard, MR. ROBERTS: The hon, gentleman from Twillingare (Mr. Small~·lOod) is indulg~ng in a well known move,but I would suggest to the minister he might wish to look into that and find out whether it can be changed unilaterally. I do not think it can.

MR.. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: Could the Minister of Transportation anc Communications, --.... _....., Sir, indicate to the House a ball park figure of the amount of , money that the federal government are talking about in trying to push off the resnonsibility, shrug off the responsibility for the coastal boat service and the other ferry services in this Province and making the Province responsible for part of the cost? I think that was in the report this morning. \~at kind of money are we talking about? Does the minister have any idea at all? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. ~finister of Transporation and Communications. HR. MORGMT: Hell, Mr. Speaker, thP-y are talking about approximately SlOO million. Out of that $ 44 million is for the subsidization of the gulf ferries into Port aux Basques, $4 ~illion into Argentia, $23 million in the operations of the coastal boat services,anotl":er approximately $3 million to $4 million on the ferry services, the small ferries throughout the Province,and $25 million in the rail freight activity. :'1R. NEARY : Zow muc.h do they ask from the provinces? ~~.

Speaker, they have not asked the Province for any uarticipation in the subsidies for transportation. :'-':?.. ~·TE..A..RY: They did in the ~ase of the ferries. '1R. '10RGA~T: But on the ferries, 1ve call them marine fe!'ries in the remote areas of the Province, t hey ~·Tere indicatinQ; to us they

~ay 16, 1977 Tape No. 2715 NM- 3 :1R. ~10RG.A1'l': ,.ranted to pass the total amount, the total cos t o f t h ese ferries O'Ter to t he ~T eHfoundla nS. Sovermuent , ~· rh ich I \vas the same thing \vas done in EC. ~ • 1\TEARY: Hm.; much? ~. ~O RGAN: Hell that amounts to - Hell there is Sl tTtillion on the Bell Island run, and aporoxi.TTJ.ateJy S3 :nillion on the total of the six ferries. And they \vill not reimburse the Province? MR. ~ORGAN: They have approached us through the official level. Mr.

Lang has never officially communicated with me 1 or in fact any of my colleagues on this matter saying that what participation we wanted was to be involved. They merely told us that as of the end of March in 1977 when five of the existing contracts operating these ferry services expired that they want us, the Province, to assume responsi~ility for these subsidies as of that date.

But they would pay you. ~m.. r~ORGAN: And of course we refused out right saying that these services were subsidized since Confederation and '"e saw no reason the Province should at this time take over the responsibility, in particular the financial responsibility,for the operation of these ferries and therefore up until this date we have had no discussion along the lines of the transferring any rart of the cost of subsidizing to this Province. ·, /.

Hay 16, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: NR . S TRACHA.l.'{ : Tape 2716 PK - 1 The hon. member for Eagle River, a supplementary. On this same question in dealing with a transfer of funds, could the minister assure us that there will be no reduction in the coastal service in order to be able to get airstrip construction on the coast, that the coastal service will not be downgraded in the transfer of funds made in the form of subsidies~ MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGA...'{: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, again I cannot assure that.

And I indicated earlier I wish I could assure all of these things, but if the attitude that is relayed through the media at the national level, from the senior official,I am of the indication who the official is, without using his name, but if that is the attitude officially . of the Ministry of Transportation and his colleagues in Cabinet with regards to this Province, .I am afraid we are in for some tough times with regards to transportation in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: I have indicated I will recognize the hen. member for Windsor-Buchans next. MR. FLIGHT: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, this question to is for the Minister of Transportation. Is the minister in his role as Transportation Minister, does he have any input into the.scheduling of airlines schedules around this Province, when air schedules are being revised, and I am thinking about the regional carrier here, EPA~ in Newfoundland? Does the minister in his capacity as Minister of Transportation in this Province have any input or asked for his views as to what the scheduling shou-ld be? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, any input that the Department of Transportation has in scheduling of airline services is strictly informal and you could almost use unofficial capacity because the scheduling of airlines is controlled strictly by the Canadian Transportation Commission which is the Federal Government regulatory authority which issues the licence to the carriers concerned, and ·.

May 16, 1977 Tape 2716 PK - 2 Mr. Morgan: therefore the condition of the licence, the scheduling of the service etc. is strictly co-ordinated and indicated by the licence and also by the regulatory powers of the CTC. So therefore the only input we have is _ have often sat down and discussed the services provided by EPA, and I have also discussed with the officials of the Air Canada carrier. But with regards to having control over it we have got no control~it is just merely an informal unofficial input by means of consultation or dicussing the matter with us. MR. FLIGHT: MR.. SPEAKER: MR.

FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the original questioner. Would the minister indicate if his department has received any complaints from the travelling public of Central Newfoundland, those using Gander, in and out of Gander, with regards to the present scheduling, EPA's present scheduling that took effect, I think, on April 28? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr.

Speaker, I am not personally aware of any~but I will check the files and with the Director of Transportation he may have some correspondence from that area, and if so, I will enlighten the hon. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is,in the absence of the hon. the Premier, I would like to direct a question to the Government House Leader, the Acting Eremier, the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

Would the Acting Premier tell the House what plans the government have, what special plans the government have to deal with the serious problem of 18,000 skilled and semi-skilled workers in the construction industry who are currently unemployed? Does the government have any plans to try to cope with this situation; if so , would the minister tell the House what these plans are?

May 16, 1977 HR. SPEAKER: MR • HI CKMAl.~ : Tape 2716 PK - 3 The hen. Minister for Intergovernmental Affairs. Ours plans as a Province obviously are those that are indicated in the Estimates and in the Budget that have been tabled in this House; that is the only fiscal control or ability we have to create jobs _, to _ protect so many of these men and women, but primarily men, skilled men who again traditionally are emp ~ oyed in the construction industry, and unfortll:Ila~ely in this Province the construction industry looks to government .for a .much higher percentage.

I gather before I even finish my answer the han. gentleman is dissatisH.ed with it. But in any event - MR. NEARY·: It is evasive, vague. .· MR. HICKMAN: I have not finished yet. MR. NEARY: Typical of the kind of an answer you get from the minister. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, as I say the construction industry does in this Province rely upon government expenditures at all levels for a much higher percentage of their work than in other parts of Canada.

Secondly, back as far as last October representation was made to the line departments of the Government of Canada indicating to them what the situation would likely be in Newfoundland and it was then, and if they had in the planning stages certain construction works for - this Province over and above what they would normally spend in any one fiscal year in trying to accelerate i~.

~'ay 16, 1977 Tape no. 2717 Page 1 - !"'S ~'"r. Ei ck~an. hopefully t~is will be ~one. _!>._ svpplerrentary C'llestion, ···r. C:::rye::tker. ~'R.

SPEAY£.P: .A suprlementary, then the "bon. ?entleman for Eae:le River. ]' rp._. ~;EL\?Y : In vie'v of the fact tlv.t there -'tT':' noF almost 4,001) carpenters unemployed around this Prcvince,over 600 electricians and so on and so forth, 1-mulcl the T!'inister indicate to the Rouse if the government i-lill nm,7 take a look at its training programmes to see if it is necessary to continue to run various courses in the vocational sc~ools and in the College of Trades,to train carpenters and electricians and plumbers and pipefitters and ,,·elders vrhen 'ile have a surplus that could probably last for the next ten years?

Is it necessary to contjnue the prograiT1JT1es no<v or FouJ.c it he cruel to train more peoTJle to :co 011t in to the ,,iorld expec tinf to find jobs as a resu:!. t of their training? Is the g-overnment going to revieH this situation nm;,can the ndnister tell us? ~-f:R. SPEAKE'?.: The hon. ~<inister of Justice. '"? • -qiCIW.AN: ~-~r. Speaker, that question really should not be directed at me. It should be to my collea?ues - !"'?. NEABY: ~ell, Qet the ministers in their seats! - the :-'inister of Labour and Y.anroHer or the ?''in is ter of Education.

But I assnrr.e that the vocational training - the officials responsible for vocational training programmes respond to the demand that is emanating from particular sectors of the public in the Province from time to tii"!e.

Ancl. if there is a clear and unmistakable surplus in a particular vocation t1·:o things 1-1ill happen: C'ne is the CeJ'T\a.ncl ,,!ill !"'OSt dramatically c;lecreese for ac,.,ission to talre that pc>.rticular ccurse, t:>eccmse it ~-Tculd not ,.,.,ake sense for any youn;! ~Te1·''=omi.c1lander to Pant tn take it; and seco!"c 1l;r,that there \·~auld be a re,;ier.; frnfTl the noint of ,_.i.e•'' of the course <:md pro3rc>TI'!'!e itself

~ ~.,., y 16 , 19 77 Tape no. 2717 Page 2 - !"1S "r. T{ickr::2n. as to its validity anC. ho,,' rn.eaningful it is for th:i s Province. T.ha t latter

part I cannot answer, but I susoect it :is being ~one. I really do not knm·:. ?-1?. . :TEAPY: ~{r. Speaker, I am coi"pletely dissatisfied, Sir, with the minister 1 s ans'tver. It is evasive, general, vague, and · I wish to debate it - ~IP •• SPEM<EP.: Order, please! The hon. gentleman is not required to give the reasons for his dissatisfaction. - and objectionable too, Sir, and I 1dsh to debate it during the Late Shm-v on Thursday coming. !-~ay I be pem.itted a question now, Sir? 11.P. SPE.AJ<E?: No. I recognize the han. gentleman for Eagle Piver. H"TJ STP J..C"!U,N: ~~r.

Speaker, a cuestion for tr.e Yin:ister of ~fines and Energy. i.Tewfounclland and Labrador Hydro attributec1 Jesses of $2.1 million to the difficulties with the generators at Churchill Falls and they assessed that there would be furth~r trouble again this year as they cl:a:--~e and clo the modifications on the rims of the genera tors, the r,.;indings.

Could the ndnister tell us ~qhether Ne-.;qfoundland Hydro is trying to recover any of that money from the manufacturers of these generators, because apparently they feel that only one manufacturer of the generators have created this trouble, and now they are trying to recover any proportion of that fund? r'P.. SPEA.KE? : The han. ;><inister of ~<ines and Energy. YP.. PECKFOPD: Yes, ~rr. Speaker. ~'!' .. SPEAF.EB.: The hon. me!!!ber for Bellevue. VP CALL..A;N: Yr. Speaker, D.y question is for the ~-finister of 'T' • . our1.sm.

As part of its monitoring progra~ne -the Erco situation at -:-JonS? 1fabour, i. c., the C:eformed rpl-.b its - as na rt of its continuinc:> t'1.onitoring prograrrme, I aT" rJonder:L.<f- if tlle rr1i:-lister! s c1eparttent or any other cer:artment of ·"overm,ent p1.ans to take, say, moose sar:ples? /

Yay 16, 1()77 Tape !".O. 2717 Pae;e 3 - ms I 1--no'.J a nu!!lber of peo"'J e it". tl:le area are reluctant to ?.ppJ.:r for a r:!oose licence in that area anc, of course, as the rrj_nister. knor,-rs moose, of course, ca.n travel, you know, :,ere a:1d there and everyr.vl::.ere. Does the rninister's departiD.ent plan to test some moose there and see if t~ere ~ight ~e fluoride in these? ~7... SPEP..KE~. : 'Tice hon. ~-finister of :'ourism. '1J'.. EICKEY: Nr. Speaker, I can infonr. my hon. friend that a moose has already been taken and samples already sent to the laboratory for analysis. 0\fR. Clu,LAL'l' : ~--rp_.

SPEA...l(EP : ~-· rp_ • CALL.l'~ : A supplementary, ~-~r. Speaker. A supplementary.by the original auestioner. The minister said that samples have been taken and sent. Are there any results yet anc1 if not -.;,rhen can r-~e ex-pect the results to re h:10vn~ Before the season for app1 ications, the 20th. ~·ay? ~"' SPEAKE'P.: The hon. minister. There are not results, ~'r; Speaker, because tl:e sa1"1.ples have been sent very recently. I think it Fas about mir. 1ast -.;,-e.ek. t'nder norT'lal circumstances, it takes approximately t'l·?o ~.;eel<-s.

So I Hould hope that r::-tighly -.;vi thin a tKo ~·ieek period the results Hill be 'Jack. And as I prorised the ?onse on Pricav, as soon as the reports are back, an2 other. reports on the adcitional sa~ples of rabbits, then I ,.;ill report to the Rouse the fincings. ?T .. SPEMZEP: ~m C~..LLJ'N: A supplerrentary by the original questioner. ~fr.

Speaker, I al'!l ~-:on2ering if the !'lin is ter could tell the Rouse c.:rhat c_anger is there to hurcael health' yon knOl•7' in the conSUT"ption of these reforr.ed rabb5.ts, sav, or TT:OCSe thc.t r.rould have the f1u.orire? ~s this !"eat erliole or is t~l.en>. canr.er to tl:1.e healtr1 or '""hat?

'1ay 16, 1977 Tane ~To. 2718 N1f - 1 ~1R. SPEAKER: The han. Yinister of Tourism, ~ffi.. F.ICKEY: ~·fr. Sneake r, I BTI not competent to give any i<ir.d of a firm or detailed ans~ver on that kind of a question. I can only impart to ny han. friend 'lvhat I am told to date and this is why I rose on the point this morning to correct that headline.

I am assured, and the government is assured by both the Department of Health,who has a monitoring system at Long Harbour and the workers there ,are- assured by the Department of Health, by tests done by Environment Canada that the tests that were done with regards to vegetation so far, all the tests that have been done by the Depar~ment of Health on the workers indicate no health hazards at the present time.

I am also advised by my wildlife staff,who are also advised by the expertise that they have been in touch with in various parts, Roschester, New York and MontaiL."la, that the degree of flouride found in the rabbit to date certainly has no basis for alarm, that the flouride is in the bone structure, that it does not effect the meat and therefore there is no reason for us to say at this point in time that there is any health hazard, But as I pointed out and I wish .to emphasize.

I do not consider myself competent to give total assurances of that and I do not think anybody is prepared to do so at this point in time. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. ~. SPEAKER: A supplenentary, the original questioner. ~R. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, \vould you advise the House as to whether any thought has been given to closing dm·m. the - ~1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! I 'lvill not interrupt the han. gentleman nmv but actually I did recognize a sunnle..rnentary, t!J.e original questioner. But I r.vill allmv the hon. gentleman to continue, just to set ~~e record straig;ht.

The han. l"lember for Hindsor - Buchans. I '\Jill allow him to continue, I .iust want to clarify the record

Hay 16, 1977 Tape No, 2718 N?1 - 2 ~. SPEAKER: that I had recognized - there uere a fe, ., peonle seeking a supplementary but I recognized the original questioner, Hho did not ,.,ish to ask one, ~. FLIGHT: Thank you, Sir. Hould the minister advise the House if his department is giving any consideration to closing do,,~ an appropriate area a_round the Long Harbour operation for the pupcise of hunting, snaring until it is determined as to j~st what extent of levels of flourid.e that the wildlife may have absored there, closing it down completely, an appropriate area? MR.

SPE.AKER: The hon, Minister of Tourism. .· MR. HICKEY: No, Mr. Speaker. I think it is very important here and ·I think my han. friend should take a leaf out of his leader's book)as he indicated on Friday that while this is a serious situation · ·· and one that He are not going to leave unattended, it would be ~rery wrong to react to too great a degree, to react indeed without any firm basis for reacting at this point in time, And everything possible is being ~one with regards to carrying on further investigations.

As I indicated~ samples of moose have been taken, I mean this was on our own initiative, not necessarily a request or anything of that nature. Everything possible is being done, I think it would be very wrong to go overboard at this ])oint in time '"hen we have no basis for doing so, And the other thing is that we have no reason at this particular point in time to have any justification to partition off or to close any given area around the plant because this would only give rise to something •..vhich ,.,e cannot eXPlain, lvould not be able to explain~and indeed would not l:.e able to justify. ~fP..

FLIGHT: 0:1e !'lOre supplementar y , ~.fr, Sr.eaker, The final supnle~entary, the han, gentleman from ~Jindsor-Buchans, then I '"ill recognize the han, member for LaPoile for a sunolementary.

'l.~y 16 ' 1977 Taoe \!o, :;na ~·tR . FLIG HT : By Hay of !:)rearnble, Sir , I assure th e minist er I a~ ree tha t it Hould be ve~y wrong to cause any a larm. As I unde rstand it tve alr eady have rabbits that have been oroven to have a high level of fluori de . ~!ow Hould it not be just as wrong to allo~v peoo le to hunt in there and take t~e chance on consuming meat that may indeed be contaminated? ~m . SPEAKER: The hon . ~linis ter of Tourism . ~1R . RICKEY: Mr. Speaker , that raises the question of tv!"lat we ~vould term a restricted area. You know I mean rabbi ts move and so do moose .

Hildlife goes from one part of this Province - ~1R . FLIGHT: Seven miles . MR . HICKEY: - one part of this Island to the other and,you know, just where do you stop? Where do you start~

:lay 15,1977 Tape 2719 21-1 :m. HICI~EY: I suggest t~at this is not the time and I suggest that tf1e idea of indiciating or specif;,in3 a given area around the ~lant as a restricted area, I <vould suggest to my hon. friend that this could do nothing more than create ~nnecessaFY alarm at this point in ti!:'le >-Jhen indeed -.1e cannot explain it. HR. ScL.-'J:.I:;~JOOD: If we found a dozen more rarbits with the same condition? HR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. NR. HICKEY: I think that would be a different situation, :Hr. Speaker. HR.

NEA..'!.Y: I am not prepared to accept the fact that >ve are over reacting and that there is no need for alarm, Sir. There is need for alarm and I l•lant to ask the minister this question, because the people in Long Harbour live right underneath that plant, practically right next door, and I knm.r there is a genuine concern about rabbits and moose. But Hhat about the people?- Has anybody ever done a study on the people over the last five to ten years! to ·see if the people are being effective, what kind of things they are being treated for?- Is there any danger of the peoFle's lives.

Rabbits,that is fine, we can be concerned about toO,, but the moose and the caribou and the birds and the bees. But I what about the people? Is the minister's department keeping an eye on that~or is the Department of Health keeping an eye on the people there to see that they are not affected by the fluorid? If it gets into the b-ones of rabbits c-;ould it not get into the bones of people, human beings? -- - --- NR. SPE.A..KER: Ron. Minister of Tourism. I could not agree -cvith I:lY han. friend more >vhen he says there is cause for concern.

Govern~ent have reacted and reacted I instantly and irnnediately, obviously sho-.ring cause for concern. Cor..cern and alarm are tva differe!1.t thi.n~s, tuo different uorc.s, :rr. Speaker, they have ve~r dif:Eere-.,_t connotations and that is tr1e ree.son I said, vou 1rno'·' "·""' .I ~ .• l. .. ~ 1,•:-._. should not be creating an alar~ins situe.tion. It ':-Jill do no good, it is hetter for us to carry on and do our "·JOrk. /

cray 16,1977 Tape 2719 ~·ill.. RICKEY: .1\nd ~.;ith re.gards to the uoints made by by hon. friend, In my statement on ?riday -3.

section of tZ1at ~.;as prepared 'oy the Department of Health vihich iudicates very clearly that there is a continuous monitoriug programme done on the uorkers at Long Harbour plant. ?:-ffi.. S~IALL\vOOD : By -,.;hom? ~fR. HICKEY: Urinalysis- by his department..; and by a medical doctor for the company in cordination r.-rith the Department of Health. tlrinalysi 3~ blood testing and X-rays and I do not knm.; ;..;hat else. But in any event, Hr. Speaker, it is clearly stated in that :·1inisterial statement. And thase are not my words but a

section of it Hritten by the people in the Department of Health that all of those tests carried out on the workers are negative, shm<ling no cause and no reason for concern >vith regard to the health of the workers. There is also a

section in that statement ,,;"hich says very clearly that effects from fl'-"oride - or amounts of fluoride Hhich would be over and above that which could be tolerated by the human body, - the amounts that have been found do not give any cause for concern.lmd t:hey are doing the tests '.;ith the best systems that are available, such as urinalysis~and - I am sure that if the ~1inister of Health were here he could elaborate on that.

But as far as '"e are concerned there is no reason at this point in time to create a situation where t~ose people are going to be alarmed to the extent ~:hich is not going to help the situation. The other thing that is contained in the statement, ~ ·ir. Speaker, very clearly is that affects on the '"orkers in the 1Jlant, :reople -;.rho work in t~1e ?lant, wouH'Cbe evident :nuch sooner, mucn quick~:::r tilall member of the community of Long Harbour. lill... :,lEARY: :,iot necessarily. ~~. ::IICKEY: and I r.m not ~oing to ~u estion t~at.

~·~ay 16 , F.J 77 Tape 2719 AE-3 Pollution is pouri.:1g out of the plc.nt, outsiC.e. OBDERS JF THE D.\Y: On :::otion that the Eouse resolve itself into Cor:unittee of the ~fuole ~~r Sr eaJ.-:er left the Chair.

"ay 16, 1977 ~ape no. 2720 P8.ge 1 - r:,s Eea~ Plii -Social Services, page ~5. The hon. !~inister of Social Services. ~rp .• BPETT: }~r. Speaker - 1703EP.TS: ~·ay I raise a point of order, :(r. Chairman? CFAI"?J'i\N : A point of order has been raised. "m - .t ..... ROBE:?.TS: The point of order is this. It has been ~y understanding - and I think there are rulin£S from the Chair to substantiate it - that ~·ihen a head is called it cannot be interrupted. The Committee must proceen ~vith that until the Committee have disposed of it.

There is about thirty minutes left 6n- the head He r,rere previously debating; namely, the Labour portfolio, the estimates of that minister, and certainly we are not - I understand my colleague has some points he wishes to make - so we are not prepared by ggreement to let the time lapse and therefore rr.y submission is that that - I do not knoH ,.;hat number head it is - but •·rhatever number t~at particular heac is must be called and it must be cebated according to the Standing Orders, and then if the government \·.r :ish to call the Social Services head, Fell that is, of course, their c::oice, and we Hill be auite agreeable to that.

But I do not think, Sir, 1;.1e can interrupt a heaC. once it is under discussion. !·P. HICKY.AN: To that noint of order . I am not prepared to concur rdth the position put by the hon. Leader of the Opposition with respect to the interrupt ion of a head. I think any head can be callec'l. at any time. ' The position is that the hon. ~~inis ter of Labour and 1'-{anpm·Ier is in Gander to open a conference. He ':vill be back this morning.

Re had hoped to be back by the end of the Question Period, ~ut that probab 1 y Fas not rea] ist ic. .<\rid ··7ha t 1;.1e have planned to do is that ,,:rhe::1 the SociaJ. ~ervi.ces estilT'ates 8.re coi!'.pletec, ~;y-hich r.rill be by four o'clock th~s CJfternocm, tren ··'e rroulc. then cor:"pJ.ete Ia0our and '';>.npor·-"er. I cert2.'i.nly have no ol:l4ectioT'! to hav~ng Labour and ''a:'.flO'·.'er~ the l_ast t~·:enty-nir.e T'linutes usee. up TIOF ''Jut I ail' sure that hon. ~entle!T'en o~posite, partjcularly the critic ~or th2t rortfoJio~

?'av 16, 1977 Ta pe no. 2 72oJ Pa ge 2 - ms '' 'H • 1-. r. ,.lc.- .. ;n.an. ,,rould find it less than ne.:min.12:ful if the L9.inis ter is not here to ansc,7er the questions that he indicated to the r:omrlittee he ,,rould like to ask and for '\'hich he T,rould like to r,et replies from the hen. minister. And there is no intention to short-circuit or short-change anyone in this CoJTITIJ.ittee of the t\·7enty-nine mL11utes. It is simply that the minister is not here at this time. He 'vill be here today, so he told me on Friday.

And the minute he arrives, and we have finished then Social Services, we will revert to Labour and Hanpo'\ver and spend the tT..Jenty-nine mLJ.~'.tes responding to the questions froTil han. gentlemen opposite anc in particular the hon. gentleman ,,,ho indicated he had some questions for the minister. To that point of order. If the explanatjon of the House Leader is not agreeable to tre Leac~er of the Opposition, I r,7ouJ.d have to call a recess and make a ruling. The han. Leader of the Opposition. }f}' • ROBEPTS : ~fr.

Speaker, ,.Jith all respect to the hon. ?:ouse Leader 1 I mean there has been no consultation between him and us so accordir.gly there is no agreement. If we had been approached ,.re rnic;ht have been T·'illing to agree, but the government's arbitrary action - I oo believe there is a valid point of order. Just looking throuf.h Eeauchesne anc no reference leaps quickly out at rne so I cannot cite one. But I think Fe have had rulings in this House that once a head is calleC., vre r:ust proceed It is :tot the sa!'le as a C.ebate ori- a bill or an order of the day in that sense.

The or0er of the day is r:o!ITIT'.ittee of Supply. ':he or~er of the day is not Head I or Read II. The order of the ~ay is sil"!'.ply Orcer 2 - Coi!'!"ittee of Supply. That can l.Je interruptec. 'I"r.e r:o!"T"_ittee can !Je ra~seC. at any tiil'.e CJ.nd so fort'L. Pnd I r.roulc. ask Your P.:onour to 7'1al·.e a ruli!'.g" on the point so Fe r,rill have it settled one \·cay or another.

'·fay 16, 1977 Tape no . 2720 Page 3 - 1'18 "r . "o:,ert.s . l"'!.it·1ister ~as to be at-:ay on cffic:ial business , I mean ,.;e are Tl'i'ill ing to ;e rec-.sor:abJ.e, but there are v'ell understood procedures for that, and I Houle! sugges t ue should leave it to these proceC:ures . ~" r. Chai~an, if I T"ay speak. to that point of orcer .

I have been in the House for so~e fifteen years , and I must say from my memory that this has happened ~'o zen s of times ~vhere a minister t~rough soiT'e reason could not attend. ~·7e never objected to it t hen . i~e are doing the estimates anyho~; , "to.tlether it is Education . lve still have to discuss them . So in my opinion I think it is just another one of the r ed herrings raised in this House by tec hnical poiiltS that have no validity at all. !·!e are doio~ them . :.Jhether Fe do a half hour or an hour of Labour or this ;::.fternoo~, Hha t difference does it m.ake?

So all I say is lee: us get on ~.rHh the estimates and find out wha t is happening . Or der, please! I lvill not hear any other explanation) because the time is taken out of the estimates, so I ~ill acjou rn for five minu tes and ~ive a ruling . The Committee stands adourned for five winutes. /

Hay 16, 1977 Tape 2721 PK - 1 Mr. Chairman: I would like to point out that government .. calls order in Committee as in the House; it is firmly established. Last year the ruling was that we were in interim supply, but now we are more or less midstream of a department and there is a time limit on that department.

And I would like to draw your attention to Paragraph 242 , page 203, Subsection (4) "A proposed resolution may be allowed to stand over with general consent until another occasion, but if it has been regularly proposed from the Chair and discussed, no motion for its postponement is regular because there is no period to which it may be postponed." As we have no general consent~therefore~we must revert back to the subhead we were on when the Committee of Supply adjourned, Labour and Manpower. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, this rule is not very clear.

Unless there is agreement once ·a head is called it must be carried on until it is disposed of according to the rules, is that the - MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes,that is the information I gave. MR. ROBERTS ~ Thank you, Sir. ~r:p- • MUF.PHY : He '1ave been living in sin for a long PhiJ e, this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. Minist~r of Labour and Manpower - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIR.MAJ.'i!: Excuse me now, just a moment. Ple a se call the subhead . ··- MR. HI CKMAl.'i! : Five. MR.. ROUSSEAU: We have but half an hour.

~~y 16' 1977 Tape ~o. 2722 ~- 1 505-01 T':<e ~on. '.finister of Labour and ~-fanpm.rer. ~'fR. ROUS SE1\U: He have about half an hour left~ The only reason I stand up is to apologize to the House. I was out this morning to open the - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh. oh: MR. CHAIID1AN: Order, please: The hon. Minister of Labour and HanpoT.·Ter. I'ffi. • ROTJS S EAU : I merely stand to apologize to the hon.

Leader of the Opposition, to the House, that this morning I was invited out to officially open the twenty-first Annual Convention of the Industrial Accident Prevention Association, in conjunction with the Workmen's Compensation Board. I got back as soon as I could. I think safety, and health and occupational safety and health is very important in the Province. I thought it was very appropriate and very important that I be there this morning though it be for the few minutes that I was there to open that convention in Gznder. so · we will have a go at 505-01. HR. CHAIR.1.fAN: The hon. 'member for Terra Nova. HR.

LUSH: Mr. Chairman, T"'hen I stood in my nlace to speak to this the last day that we finished, the Cha i rl!!al! had called 501 and I wanted to speak to the heading 505 and 1t1e got down to 01 before I got to my feet. So I wondered if I could be allowed to speak to the 505? As I say it got dorNU to it before I got to my feet, the 01 was called. YR.. CHAIR"1AN: Does the hon. member have leave to revert to 505-01. MR. LUSH: ~r.

Chairman, I will not be very long~I can assure you 1 because t~e han. rn.e~ber for LaPoile has raised a lot of the t~ings that I ~-Tanted to talk about under this na.rticu1ar heading t~is !Clorning in the question Period, and then indica ted that he 1v-anted to debat.,. this in the Late Shmv, uo t ' ,...e a foTT o-int"' ,,_ ~"'ever, nere a_ _ ~ - · ry _ _ • "' that I T,Tould ':vent to emph.::tsize and re-enforce.

'ray 16, 1977 Tape ~To. 2722 ~~f - 2. HR. LUSR: I thin!( in the 'lfanpo~ver Training Progrannes I c'!o helieve that t~ere is certainly a necessit y for new initiatives and new· directions in this particular time of austerity and particularly new· initiatives and ne1.; directions both in financing and in curriculum development. In the financing of the Hanpm·Jer programmes, certainly largely subsidized by the federal government~I do believe that there is a necessity for some changes in this particular aspect of the Manpower Train~ng Programmes. Pjght now there are a lot of inadequacies in that particular programme.

I am not sure as to what direction we should take. I am half inclined to believe that monies that come from the federal government should that the provincial government should have more authority on ho~.;r these monies are spent.

And I would not at all be hesitant for the · provincial government to be given full say on the monies, the ~~.anpower training mor.ies that come to the government because I do believe the people here are more conversant with what should happen~as to how the money should be spent,and there is a particular point of aggravation with me and this is that I think that students are forced into - the way the programme no't-T operates is that many students are forced into programmes that are not their first priority, not their first choice, vlliat happens I think is that the federal government buys so many positions, a certain number of positions in each of the schools, the trade schools, and th_e Fisheries College or 1vhatever ~and I have found that students apply for a position in a certain school and find out that these positions are filled~and then they start going into second choices and third choices •. _And I think this should be more restric tiw.

I think students should receive more counselling, And I have known students to .~o into progra."!L."ll.S that 1.;rere not their choice at all1as a matter of fact. It was just a fact that there cvas a vacancY

May 16, 1977 Tape 2723 PK - 1 Mr. T. Lush: and they decided that they would go into these programmes. So I do believe that this aspect needs to be tightened up a little more and there should be more screening of the students going in there, more questions asked them, as to whether or not this indeed ~s the particular . trade that they >•ant to get into. And I certainly believe that something has got to be done here to tighten up this. And with respect to the curriculum development, and the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) put it very well this morning when he talked about the large number of skilled workers that were not able to find work. And I think that there has got to be a serious consideration given to these various trades for which we are becoming over-trained. And the hon. member listed off carpenters and plumbers and welders, and I do believe we are certainly getting an over-supply of people in these various trades, and auto body is another one.

As a matter of fact,I was talking to a gentleman this week .-who told me that in the trade school in Gander this year that out of a total class of sixteen, I believe it was, it was with auto body that not one person is employed yet, that is out of last year's class. And I know here in St. John's out of a ~lumbing class of twenty-seven, maybe it was two, but the numbers were twenty-seven, that as of November not a single person out of these new graduates~ these twenty-seven had found a job. So this certainly indicates the over-supply.

And I believe we have got to look very carefully at these trades, when people are going into them to ascertain the market, to ascertain the demand, otherwise we are just training people in a futile manner because there are no jobs available to them. Of course, this got to be done with a great degree of care because even though the job market is not available here there could be jobs available in other parts of Canada. So we just cannot say that we have got to cut them out because there is no jobs available here in Newfoundland. But the total demand has to be looked at so that we are training

May 16, 1977 Tape 2723 PK - 2 Mr. Lush: people properly and efficiently to take care of the demands. There is one other point, I think · in looking at curriculum development, in addition to looking at the availability of Jofis, the job market, I think we have also got to look a little more at putting in courses that train people for self-employment. I do not think there is enough of this done in our trade- schools~ training people in manpgerial skills and informing them of the various jobs that are open for self-~mployment throughout the different areas of Newfoundland.

And as I said before teaching them managerial skills,how to go into business for themselves. I think this is another area that we should certainly be looking at right now. And another point is I think -- there should be more co-ordination throughout the various trades schools throughout the Province so there is not an awful lot of duplication of similar courses. And again, I think · we have got to be cautious about this because there was a study done some years ago which showed that the further away a student was from some particular educational opportunity the less likelihood of a person pursuing courses.

So I believe we have got to, you know, it is not all black and white, it is not all cut and dried, that we have to look at the thing very carefully. But I do believe we have to give some consideration to looking at the amount of duplication that is going on throughout the various trades schools,to cut down on the cost, and gearing the courses that are particularly fitting the needs of the people in a particular area. For example, the school at Gander obviously should be offering different courses,let us say,from the school at Bonavista,t ~·io - different t ypes of environment.

And all I am saying is that I think these schools have to be geared more to the particular needs of the particular areas. And, I think, Mr. Chairman, that is all I want to say under this particular heading of Manpower. And I just want to give these points that I have raised for consideration to the /

May 16, 1977 Tape 2723 PK - 3 Mr. Lush: minister. MR. CHA IR.t'1Al.'l' : Shall 501 carry? The hon. member for Twi1lingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman,

:·:ay 16,19 77 Tape 2724 .t\Ii-1 : ~?.. S~'i}LLf !OOD : \·7"1-ten tl1e monent c.ar..e to open_ the College of Tedmology just east of this building,I had the 2o::wur to do tje official opening and I made a S)eech in so doing. lmd in the speech I remarked that a lot of people ~·7ere say ing that this College of Technology was really too big and too elaborate because v;hat \vere the students going to do to get \·mrk, to get jobs. after they had received their training in the college. ~1y ans\.;er \vas that I did not know, t!1at I did not have the kno't·rledge to enable me to answer the qc.estion.

I did not knmv that e:very graduate of that College of Technology uould in fact be able to find a job in :'Tewfoundland. Now you ~ave, I think it is eighteen vocational trade schools in the Province including the College - or it maybe in addition to the College, I am not sure at the moment -and you have thousands of young men and \.;ramen ~vho go through thefl and Hho get some kind or degree of technical training. To say that thel!e is an over­ supply of trained young men and r.vomen is really putting it '"r'"'ng. Tnere is an under supply of jobs for them.

But a province or a country is richer not poorer when it has people 'tvho are educated and \vhen it has young people 'tvho have a variety of technical skills. Mr. Chairman, the presence in Ne't,rfoundland of ten thousand or tHenty thousand young men and ,.;omen with trained skills acquired at the Fisheries College or the College of Technology or the eighteen vocational trade schools is a very positive and unmistakable addition to the wealth of this Province.

The skills of our people are just as much part of the wealth of the Province as the very dwelling houses that are in the Province, or the longliners or the farms that are in the Province, or the hospitals, or the paved roads, or the fish processin:s plants, or t~1e schools and a hundred other things. T'.'1ese are 'ditl1.out doubt, Hithout dispute, fonns of ':ve::1.lt:t. r.-.e Province is ':Jett·~r off for hA.vin3 those IJarticuiar forms of uealth; they do forn :! E'·rt of the provincial uealth of this Province. Fell, so do the s 1.dlls, the traiued s kills of

':ay 16,1977 2721.! .\:·!-2 thousands of youns men and r.,•ol!len even though they cannot find jobs, even t:1ou ::;h t!1ey cannot find peo~le ~·Jho >.:ill employ them and pay t hen to use t~ese skills. The skills are still there .

It is greatly to be regretted that across Canada in general, and in particular here in :!et·ifoundland , there is a serious l ack o f jobs , the r e a r e a million Canadians a t this moment look i ng for Hork ~vho cannot find ~vork , looking for paid tvork fo r paid employment ~.;ho cannot find it . _The percentage in this Pr ovince is extremely and extraordina r ily high , not by any means the highest t.Je have ever had , i t i s no t even the ' highe st tve have had sin ce He became a Provin ce of Canada .

Pe o~le tend to fo r gec tha t in one of the ear l y years of our c ar e er as a Province the r ate of unemployment -..:ent up over thi r ty pe r cent in one year . Of .course,tha t does not make eigh t een or twe!ltY per ce nt any more tvelcome or any more enjoyable o r any less grievo1;1s . It is ter r ible to hav e young men and ~.;omen wit h ·skills, or ew~n •,Jithout skills , ~·7ho cannot fi.'1d a chance to e a rn a dollar , to earn it , to earn it , not get it in unemployment insurance, not get it in t.;elfa r e but to earn their

~ay 16, 1977 Tape ~To. 27 25 N'H - l ~m. s: L~LUTOOD : living. It is a shame that there should be even one person ivilling to earn a living and not have the chance to do it, and more especially if they had received training as a nlu.rnber or electrician, or a carpenter, or a ivelder or anything else. It is a shame that they cannot find work, But, Sir, that is no argument.against having the Fisheries College and the College of Technology and the eighteen trade schools. They are good. They are necessary. They are a great addition to the welfare of this Province.

If things were better than they are in the other provinces, the ~ewfoundlander who gets a trade or a particular skill at one of these institutions can always go and seek a job somewhere else, and some of them do ·and some of them do get jobs elsewhere,but I am afraid that at the moment, at the moment we have thousands of trained Newfoundlanders wro cannot find i·Tork. Their skill is not a dead loss, It is not a burden to them. It is no burden to a man to be an expert ~.relder, or to be an electrician, or to be a carpenter, or to be anything, a plumber, a printer, a shorthand writer.

It is no burden to have that skill and who knows, who knows 'lvhen the opportunity to use the skill, to be able to sell it for a decent income ~ill arise. And so while I am in absolute- sympathy r..;rith every word just uttered by my friend and colleague here, I have to say 1.rhat I said at the op<7ning af the College of Technology, that every Ne,.;foundlander born alive, male or female, ought to have the right to a good education, ought to have the right to acquire snecialized skills, whether or not he can in fact turn it into cash at some period of his life. If he cannot do it today perhaps he 1vill tomorrm.;r.

If he cannot rio it this year perhaps he 1-1ill eo it :-text year or the year after or the year after ,e.nd if you are seventeen or ej_ghteen or twenty years of age 7 and you cannot get a job now as an electrician or a plumber 1 perhaps in five years you will. And if you can get it at t'.venty-five or t"tventy-eight or even thirty years of age that is a __ good thing. It is a good thin~ that the Province gave hi:n.,1dth the heln of

Hay l!1, 1977 Tape No, 2725 ' ,~ . SYAL U!OO:!J : Ottawa of course, gave ~irn the opportunity to acquire t~at particular kind of skill.

It is depressing to see ~en - the hon, member for LaPoile (~r. ~eary) startled me 3and I am sure he must have startled a great many people in Newfoundland the other day when he reeled off a long list of Newfoundlanders, 100 of this and 200 of that and 300 of something else, and 50 of something else and 500 something else, and 1,000 something else, Newfoundlanders \vith particular skills who were unemployed, and presumably drawing unemploymen 't insurance, and whoj when they run out of their entitlement to unemuloyment insurance, will have to fall back on welfare. That is tragic.

But is is still no burden that they are plumbers, that they are electricians, that they are car~enters, that when the chance comes they will be able to do that work and get very good pay for it, Here endeth the first verse. MR • CHAIR..~N: The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. ~TEARY: Hr. Chairman, although I have a great deal of sympathy with the presentation, the argument put fon~ard by my han. friend, the member for T\villinga te n-rr. Small\•70od), I do not necessarily agree ~vith the hon. gentleman that these people, their trade, their sk~lJ ~ rThatever they are taught, their training will be no burden to them.

That is quite true, Sir. But what will happen to these people, Xr. Chairman, is this, that they will be embittered by society, or at society, at the government, our educational system, and they will feel, Sir, that everyone has let them do,vn. The brainwashing that has taken place over the last several years was,first of all,get a / •

"ay 16, 1977 Tape no. 2726 Page 1 - !'1S university education, ::ret a piece of naper from the Fniversity, you are p::uaranteec to f.et a job. :.low the young reoT)Je, the younp: men and ~o~En are be?inning to realize that that is not so, that by graduating from the r·niversity and cressing up in your cap and gm.m and getting your certificate, does not guarantee you a job.

As a matter of fact.,nine chances ont of ten, the graduates of the university, a lot of them, have to go to the College of Trades or go to the vocational schools to get further training, to get the kind of training that they need to find emplo~ent. And my argument is this - although there is a great deal of merit in what my hon. friend said - ~y argument is this, Sir, that those in charge of th~ ~anpower training have not used their initiative and their inagination to my liking.

Tbere should be a !'"lore concerted effort, Sir, to train people in the kind of technology, in the kind of skills, ,.;here they can fine j cbs that are a.vailable toclay. 2'l'.. }'~?PHY: Such as? ! '!' • NEARY : I will give the han. gentleman a few exar.:ples in a fe~·l minutes, but I just "Cvant to go back over these figures in case they escaped the attention of hen. members of the House. And I can see my hen. friend was listening to r,Jhat I had to say the other day. }'!'_. S~'ALLHOOD: I always listen to the hen. member, always! ! ·~r.

Speaker, I !!lay not ah;rays be right, but one thjng that I talk about inside and outside of this Rouse are the problems that are affecting the ordinary people of this Province. And here is one for meiT1bers to cher.J on while 1:-1e are in here Fasting a<,ray our tirre, ,,·iling- a1:ay our tiT!'e mostly on foolish nonsense.

Right :1m·: ve he.ve 3 '925 carpenters - this is as of April - 3,925 carnenters on unemplo]~Ent insurance. r.7oulc1. the l:on. fentlel"'<m alJ.OF !"1e to 2.sl.r loir:: 2 "uesticn? he Cefir:e - \·~'rat is ~e~inition in that classification? ~oes he ~e?n certificate~ carpenters or just ~el"'bers of the union?

~·ay 16, 1977 '!'ape no. 2 726 Pa s e 2 - ~s ''P . ~ T E A.T.'.Y: are certificated carpenters. They are practical men. Th ey are considered to ce carpenters in every sense of the ~-·ore, because they are not set:~. i-skilleC.. Thev are carpenters. ':'hey are tradesrr..en - 3, 925 carpenters; 604 electricians on unemplo~~nt. YI'. SV .. A.LLFOOD: unemployed? }'T_ • NEARY : ~""?. • SYALL HOOD: "1-'R. rTEARY : \·Jould the han. member again? At 1,rhat date "tvere there 3, 900 carpenters receiving une~plo}~ent insurance in April. April. April, ~""ay. April, last month.

Receiving tmemployment insurance last month - 3,925 carpenters. 604 electricians, 566 plumbers and pipefitters, 279 painters and paper hangers, 257 masons and brickla yers~ 245 structural T!"'etal erectors ?--f?.. RC'T;S SEAr: ~ffi.. -o_OFS SEAF: MR. NEAP.Y: }tp_. NEJ. "R.Y: Fm·.r many masons? 257 The union ordy got nineteen members co~m here. The union only what? J'·'ason and bricklayers, ninet~en menbers? The han. gentleman got to ~e kidc1ing me. The han. gentleman is just pulling my leg. :r-ro. r.or :SSEAF: Y:P. POUSSEAU: all they have. ~'!' • }lEAT?.Y: right nm-.r. ~Hneteen '·Jhat?

That is Pay ?valls' union, is ;t? Here in St. John's. Here in St. John's, n:..neteen members. T':1at is ~·Tineteen merr.bers r..rhc>.t? They got that many over at the Health Sciences ro~plex ~- 1o, thev have not . T"ey f1.eld u-r 1:-:i t:-, t•-ro or three Yineteen '••hHt is the hon. ·'"entlei".an taU:.ing aJ..out? ~·asons and sr:i cl<.lavers . ':"es. :.

~'ay 16, 1977 Tape no. 2 726 Page 3 - ns ~rp_, NEAPY : Jack r.'reene fOt alrr:cst a couple of hundrec on himself at peak. - 245 structural metal erectors, 132 sheet metal workers - and these are not '[!Jy statistics. These are from the enemployrn_ent Insurance Commission. These figures are from a committee that my han. friend has a representative on. ~~-- ROUSSEAL": A joint federal-provincial committee. }fR. NEARY: That is rig:ht, Sir. ~'1?-. ROUSSEAU: The only one I am questioning is the bricklayers and the masons. They may go on as bricklayers .· and T!lE.sons.

Whether they a.re certified or not is another thing, you knm•7, ~'P- • NEAPY: You cannot say the carpenters are certified either. ~0?. Rm;SSEAU: No, no. ':!'hey are not finished carpenters in a lot of ca,ses. ~. NEA.PY: Hell, a lot of them are finished carpenters, and they are a hell of a lot better than the carpenters ,,~o graduate out of the College of Trades or out of the vocational schools. They have got the practical experience. And as far as I am concerned, Sir, the best university in this ~·7orld is the unjversjty of practical experience.

And He have got 132 sheet metal ~v-orkers, 111 concrete finishers' 91 boiler I"C'"kers' 65 insulating rqorkers ' 3 7 plasterers' 35 roofing and waterproofing men, for a total of 6,347 tradesnen. ~1or..1 if the han. e:entleman wants to dispute these fi~?ures, the han. gentleman better go and argue '-lith his representatives on this committee that produced these figures. I''F.. t'DUS SEAU: I am not djsputing the figure~. All I am s~ying is tl:at the I"asons ancl. brickJRyers, fror the inforTI'at:i_oE I have, that seens like a lot !"ore t~an there are. The rest of t~ern I ro not ciSDUte.

Anc acce~ to that, Sir, ad~ec to that are 11,~~2 labour and tr~fes heJrers, ~or a total. of 17,7C9 ski~le~ an~ sero~-skiJle~ '·.·ori:ers on unernplo;.~ent jnsnrc:.nce '~·enfits in / pd l. Pas the , ::o-r . :centle:-".2-n

~ay 16, 1977 Tape No. 2727 ~- 1 ~!R. S~ALUJOOD : divided these fi~ures, has he tot~lled them up under t'·lo headings - construction and not construction. Em.; many of these, leaving out t!1e last figure of the fifteen thousand-some-odd-hundred labourers and helpers, leaving them out, the others,the s,ooc- 6,000, how many of them are in the construction trade? ~. NEA.-q_Y : All of them, '!1r. Speaker. All of these are in the construction. MR. SMALLWOOD: No, not ·all of them. MR. NEARY: all of them. Yes, Sir, all are in the construction industry, ~ffi. SMALLWOOD: May I see it?

HR. • NE..J\R.Y : No, these are my - that is my own release. MR. SMl\~LWOOD: I knmv. I ,._.rill hand it back. ~. NE.A.RY: No, but it is my - You mean the - I want to refer to it. MR. S~LU700D : Yes , all right • Go ahead . ~. ~ffi.A-RY: Mr. Speaker, as the han. member for Twillingate (~r. Smallwood) indicated, these are startling figures indeed. But they just seem to go right over the heads of han. gentlemen. This is the kind of a problem, Sir, that we should be debating in this han. House. We.should be putting forth ideas and suggestions of how we can come to grips with this serious problem. Mr.

Speaker, there are 17,789 skilled and semi­ skilled \vorkers on unemployment insurance benefits in the month of April and these -,;,rere all in the construction industry. '-fy hon. friend does not seem to accept the - I '!F. • S~.ALUTOOD : I heard the hen. member name two or three classifications that did not sound like construction. 'IT!_. ~~ARY : Carpenters, electricians, nlunbers and nipe fitters, r:>ainters, and paper hangers, masons ar..d brick layers, struc t1.1ral :!'.etal erectors, sheet !net2.l \•Torke-rs, concrete finishers, ~oiler !T!a:.(ers, insulation \·lOr\:ers, nlater~rs, roo fin?; and \vater oroofing.

They are all construction.

!"fay 16, 1977 Tape No. 2727 NH - 2 ~f:',. S ·1ALUJOOD: Yes. ~ ·::? .• ~TEL~.RY: And these figures"by t~e ,.ray, came from the Une.11ploynent Insurance Conmission 3as my '!1on. friend knm.;rs, via a sub-committee of t~e Construction Association in this Province. Now, ~-fr. Chairman - MR. PATTERS(!~: ~·lould the hon. member permit a question? ~-fR. NEl\.RY : Yes. HR. PATTERSON: You mentioned there the alarmingly high number of_iron workers there, are they certified?

Are those welders high pressure welders or are th~y just fellows who have oeen working in the trade and are not recognized under the various boiler codes, the welding codes and other regulatory bodies? MR. NEARY: I presume my han. friend is talking about the structural metal erectors? ~'R. Pl•.TTERSON: Yes,but what are they, certified? }fR. ITE.A.RY: These are men, Sir, mainly I would say, most of these are up in the Head of the Bay, up in Harbour ~1ain . • district, in my han. friend's - ~R. SMALU700D: And they are the best in the ivorld. 1'-!R. NEARY: in my han. friend's district, that has gone off now.

They do not call them vacations on the other side of the House anymore, you go for a rest now, not a vacation. This is a new name. And I would say most of these are in the' Head of the Bay. Because I was up there the Sunday before last, I went around the Head of the Bay and the structural steel workers, the iron workers, the painters, and whatever is associated with that trade, most of them are unem~loyed at the present time. ~'ffi.. PATTERS ON: That is true, but on those metal workers; Are they certified men,do you know?

Does the Canada HanpoHer list them as being certified metal workers? ~·ffi.. ~"lEARY : I do not know, '-~r. Chaiman. /

?fay 16 , 1977 Tape No . 2727 ~ . PATTERSO~l : Because if they are certified ~.;elders , I do not thin k there is any probl~ in ~etting wo r~. You may not get it ir Ne,vfoundland but you will certainly - if you are a certified high pressure welder you have no problem in getting a job . ~ . NEARY: ~r .

Chairman, they may be able to find jobs in NeH York, I do not know, or in Alberta someHhere , or out around Fort - ~1ad1urray o.n the Tar Sands, My hon. friend may be quite true and t here is a big , as my hon . frie nd knot<~s , ~!:! - 3 a big movement of Ne~vfoundlanders headed \·Test today ,''Go West) young man, go West " se~s to be truer than in any time in our history . 11 Go Hest, young man.,Go 't-7est;'and we will stay behind, those of us who can survive in this Province . But a lot of the electricians are headed out ~-lest.

I know one family 1I think there were five young men in the family that I visited recently and the five of t hem, if they did not have jobs on the Tar Sands they t-7ere going anyway. But t;.;o

~·~ay 16, 19 77 Tape 2728 ;;-'\1-l-1 or three of them had jobs and the five young men in that fanily c·Tere going any~·:ay. 'I:l.ey ~vere going out to look for employment,out in Alberta. But it is a pretty serious situation that ,.,e have: thatl He are faced \vith in this Province, Sir, and the people are asking a:1d t~e construction Harkers are asking. Before their-unemployment insurance run out they are starting to hit the panic button already. There is nothing on the. draw·ing board, they can see nothing ahead but as my hon. friend says, \velfare. ~Iow, Hr.

Chairman, r.ve have to ask ourselves two questions in this han. House and in this Province. First of all) and that is why I put the C"]_uestion to the han. }'linister of Justice,the Government House Leader,this morning in the absence of the Premier. wnat is the government going to,do to put all this skilled training that we now have, put them to work if rh~v are going to do anyt~ing. And if they are not going to do anything let the government say so, and if they are going to do something then let us have some specific plans, let the government tell us what they are going to do.

And secondly, Sir, I ask the minister- and this is aver;, very important aspect of this whole problem- what is being done to restrict or eliminate training more people for these occupations until the demand is caught up to the supply? I said the other day, Sir, that it would seem to me to be cruel and foolish and stupid indeed to keep on training people for j'obs that do not exist. lve have got enoug~ trained people her~, Sir, I would say for the next ten years.

The other day jokingly I said we could shut the university down for five years and T:Te r.vould. have enough B • .-\'s, B.S.C's, M.A's, and P.H.D's to last us for five years,and that is not an exaggeration. Although there is some merit to ~~at my han. friend says about broadening your education, keep them ~oing to sc~ool, they may as r.·re:.l be in there c·lhiling auay there time as out in the Horld unable to find a job~ depressed and demoralized. So you might as ':Vell -.

Hay 16,1977 Tape 2728 AH-2 :.::R.. NEARY: keep on training them, and keep on training them. Eventually you <:·rill probably end up uit:.,. the best trained iV'elfare recipients in the whole of Canada. Order, please~ Shall Item V, Labour and :1anpm1er, all subheads, carry? SDtlE RON. HEl·1BERS: Carried .. l'ffi. ClL<\.IRNAL\1 : Carried. ~fR. FLIGHT: The minister never said a word. HR. HORGAN: You did not give him a chance. ~'1R. CHAIR.lvJA~ ; Ny explanation is that the time is expired on this subhead, on this Heading. Carried? Carried. l-1R • HI Cl0f...AJ.\I : Head VIII, Social Services. HR.

CRAIP~'lAN; Head VIII, Social Services, Subhead 801-01. The bon. the Hinister of Social Services. ~iR. BRETT: Hr. Chairman, I Hill take a few minutes to ' introduce the estimates of the department, not very long because I assume that any questions will come up in the various headings. Every governm~nt has a moral and legal obligation I su~pose to care for its indigent people. \'le are no different.

I do feel that probably this government has been a little bit more cognizant of that responsibility~and I do not mean that because we are so much better, but because times have cha..Tlged and it has nm.; been shmm almost conclusively that social ~.relfare is one of the major problems in our society. The indicators are , ~ ~r. Chairman, that far too many people are ~.;illing to accept ~.relf are as a '.>Jay of life and generations of welfare are creating untold problems that are costing provinces and our federal government many millions of dollars.

And that is not necessarily in the supoort services that c•ie !"lave., like food and clothing and shelter and so on~ but because ~;.re find r..ore alcoholics, more '!:lroken homes, more unmarried mothers and more abused children among chronic

:·ray 16 ,19 77 Tape 2728 Ail -3 ~IR. B~ETT : Helfare recipients that He do areong no~al, I healthy incependent people . I ~..rould like to point O ;.t t that t.Je :1ave taken - or i"!ade some changes, many c;,anges bu t one in particular, our •.-:ork activity and community development and I Has sort of elated tvhen I say a."l

article in the TeleGtram a fet.r cays ago that the United States is to get a net.; welfare system. I will no't read it but the contents indicate that in the United Stares they may be ta.ldng t"his same step that t\le are in that they are going to cr eate employment for chronic welfare recipients and also give tax incentives to the t.;orking poor - these are a group of people t-7e do not hear too much about. Of course we would not have to give tax incentives o r credits because most of our t.;orking poor do not pay income t a."C anyway . And then the third system that they are bringing in

May 16, 1977 Tape 2729 PK - 1 Mr. Brett: we already have~which is cash to the indigent. I would like to point out 1 because I think it is often misunderstood,that there is a very distinct difference between the chronic welfare recipient and the person who gets welfare for a brief period of time. The person who does get welfare for short periods is the type of person who is unemployed for reasons of unemployment and that is it.

We have many hundreds of people in the Province like that; they are working for four or five months of the·year, and then while they are waiting for unemployment insurance they probably get welfare for one or two months,and then when they come off welfare they probably have to get for another two or three months, but then they can go on to work again. And these type of cases do not give us any problem. The problems lie with the chronic recipient who_ is on month after month after month.

A recent survey of our case load here in the Province pointed out a very interesting statistic and that is that out of the approximately 5,000 cases that we have on in the Province, and that does not vary too much,it goes down in the Summer, but from Fall until Spring it is pretty well even, anywhere from forty-five to fifty-five cases. And out of that number 64 per cent are unemployable. And this means then that out of the 5,000 only 1,800 people are able to go to work and the other 3,200 could not take jobs even if they were available.

Of course, there are a number of reasons why these people could not; most of the reasons are social; a fair number are one parent families and these make up a large number of our case load right now, like unmarried mothers. And of course there are some on unemployment insurance; they probably could go to work if they could find jobs, but they do not~ And a lot of those are supplemented or they used to be before the unemployment insurance rates went up. And there are also people who are working and their income is below

May 16, 1977 Tape 2729 PK - 2 Mr. Brett: what they would get on social welfare, and therefore they are supplemented. Then, of course, we have our alcoholics who cannot go to work. And then we have a large number, an exceptionally large number who need specialized training by properly trained social workers because these people at the moment cannot get into the work force , and I am sure that every member of the House knows the type of person that I am talking about.

If they are going to look for a job, if you get two people going to look for a job,one is an independent type person, he is sort of spry looking, the other fellow~if he were coming along at the same time,the welfare recipient sort of rejected or dejected looking.and always it is I • the independent man who gets the job first. So a lot of these people need training by,as I said, specially trained people. Now these figures should indicate to the House, Mr. Chairman, that social welfare is a very , very serious problem. The average citizen does not understand, I do not think.

I did not until I became a welfare officer and then later on ·what I am now. But to the average person, the welfare recipient that they know is getting too much, and the welfare recipient that they do not know - or the welare recipient that they know is getting too little rather~and the one that they do not know is getting too much. All the indicators tell us that we have to put much more emphasis on rehabilitative type of service. Now we provide three distinct types and that is the supportive type, the preventive, and the rehabilitative.

And of course the support type of service is in the way of food and shelter, the basic amenities of life, transportation, clothing, medical services and so on. And then our preventive type of service is such as service to child care, correction services, and help to unmarried mothers and so on. But the rehabilitative type of service I '\vould like to dwell on for just a few minutes, because as I said this is the type that governments through their Departments. of Welfare, or Social Services

May 16, 1977 Tape 2 729 PK - 3 Mr. Brett: or whatever they are called have to p-lace much more emphasis. And prior to 1972 very little was done in this Province in the way of rehabilitation of chronic welfare recipient, and that; is not a partisan statement, I am not saying that to be critical of the previoU$ administration, because probably the need did not exist at that time. There is a different slant on welfare right now. But it did become very apparent to us that unless we took some steps to rehabilitate the chronic welfare recipient theQ; we were going to end up with a large percentage of our pgpulation

~Kay 16, 1977 Tape no. 2730 / "r. t:(rett. dependent, completely cepencent on '!;•!e}fare, particularly j_r._ certain sections and certain c.oTTIITlunities arounc the Province. And the first ste p that 1-:e took "\v·as to set up - that Fas in 1973., I think - set up the Division of Employment Opportunities in tqe depart~ent. I believe that I outlined the work or the purrose of this division last year \•Then I brought in the estimates, so there is no point in my repeating that.

But I would like to say - I want it to go on the record - that it is almost impossible to m~asure the success or the efforts of that particular division. The Premier made a statement,and I backed it up, that in the last five years we have placed 5,000 people - or we have taken 5,000 people off the welfare rolls and put them into productive eiT.ploY!'Jent. ~Tol-l that has been construeci as a political statement, and it is a political statement in that it r.ras made by - r-!P..

NEARY: That is not true. i_-1}'_ • B P.ETT : - in that it Has made by a politician . '"'\nd vre did not at any time say that 5,000 people had been removed from the r.velfare rolls and that they Hould never go back again. But v!hat we did say - and if the han. member for LaPoile (~~r. Neary) - is it? - ~.;ill listen, I Hill try to prove that it Pas not a part:Lsan statement and that it is true.

Hhat >·Je did say was that 5,!)00 r-relfare recipients had been put to vlork on LIP projects, other federal governi!!ent projects, and so!!le of our ovm, who.maybe wculd not have gene to r.vork had v7e not had special project officers and ether officers in ot·r department trained to go out and find jobs and put these peonle to worJ,-, Because, as I said earlier, tr_ese t:rpe of !'eople, they just cannot r-1alk uP to a contractor and q:et a _i nb. ~Totlorly Fill hire the!!'.. So snTI'ern~,, has to go on their ~ehalf ancl. :!'.ore or. less fi;iht for the2. ":'hc>_t js etll '>'e saic.

A.nd maybe so"!'le of these 5, ')(ln, maybe half of the!l', have teen b<>.ck to t">-ie ~,,eJ fare off ice ap:ain, but a lot of theM Fill not corr.e bac 1:, because if you

~'.a y 1 6 ' 1 9 77 Ta;Je no. 2730 Page 2 - ms Fr. Brett. get them in the labour field for three, four, five or six months, they get a different attitude tm·.'ards life, and a lot of them -c-:ant to carry on in the labour force. I think I should quote an exaT"ple. · This happened on the \'!est Coast not very long ago. It ':vas not rir,ht in Corner Brook. It was some'h'here - I do not knmv the coastline that c·7ell over there - but one of these projects that Fe have going over there. It is being supervised by ~'~r. Jensen and his staff.

There are a group of men, and they have to transport them to the job every morning. It could be the Hampden job, I am not sure. But t-c·m or three of them took time out to come and see ':r. Jennings and thank him for the special effort that the staff was IT'.aking on their behalf and they said, "Look, if you had not got this going, c·"ent to bat for us, ~.ve never r.Jould have gotten a job." And they said, 11 If something else comes up, do not forget us." just goes to prove.

So, you knmv, it Now apart from our efforts of having special project officers finding jobs through LIP and r.-;hat have you, I Fould like to outline the ~·'ork t.ctivity Programrre r,.;hi.ch I think is probably one of the better programmes in this department as it deals Hith rehabilitation. This is something that came up Hithin the last tHo or three years. I should point out that it is cost-shared, and 1:-1e are taking advantage of the fj fty cent dollar here. In the Pork Activity project r,7 e do not tal~e people off r,.relfare as such.

They continue to get c. r -egular r..onthly allmvance, but in addition to that they are paid an incentive allor-rance of something like $160 . .And the Hay that "7e c1o it is that ~;v-e -vrould take a grou-p of maybe take the ~reach.Jinner in the fanily,

~ray 16, 1977 Tape no. 2731 m·r- 1 ~'!R. 'BP. ETT: and He '>Till nut him to ~vork on a ?roj ect, houefully so~ething meaningful. . ";,Te have specially trained Horl-:ers 'lvho go in and 'lvork 'lvith the mother and 'lve also ~ave people work Hit~ the I children. In this way the whole family becomes involved and it is a complete rehabilitative 1:1easure and in some cases - well our success ratio has been roughly fifty per cent.

That is to say,if we take in a group of twenty-five and we train them, we are reasonably certain that half of .these will never go back on the welfare rolls, providing there is employment avilable for them. I 'lvant to say just a few 'tvords about day care and homemaker services.

This again is something new, not to the rest of Canada,but relatively new in this Province because we had not gotten into it before, again, ,in all probability_, because we did not see the need, I should say in all truthfulness that there is a desperate need to extend the day care type of service all • across the Province,and we recently did a study which indicated that there is a drastic need in the larger centres such as Grand Falls, Corner Brook, Happy Valley, Goose Bay and a few others which I do not have right here now.

Of course it is the age old problem of money and right now we are only funding one, and that is the Teach-A-Tot here in St. John's. I do· not know exactly what it is costing. It is here somewhere in the headings. But that is the only one that we are funding but there are some thirty, I am not sure if it is thirty-one or thirty-two across the Province, all being operated on a private basis. We did bring in legislation last year to govern the setting up and the operating of day care. But as I said I.Je have not gone into the financing of them. There are tw·o :dnds.

The government has taken some flack in not extending the service, I refer to them as the babv sitting kind of day care~and then the rehabilitative kind, 'lvhich

~1ay 16, 1977 Tape ~To, 27 31 NH - 2 HR. 3RETT: is the one that we should get into, But the baby sitting kind of day care is Hhere a couple, probably in the upper middle class bracket, they could be making between them $10,000 or $15,000 or $20,000 a year; the husband could be working making $15,000 or $20,000 a year; the wife or the mother wishes to go to work to imnrove the family lifestyle 3and of course if she has children then she has to find a baby sitter or put them into a day care, And we get a lot of requests for this type of service, I feel very strongly that if somebody in the $20,000 or $2S,OOO_bracket wishes to go to work to improve their lifestyle then it is up to them to pay for someone to care for the children, AN RON, HEMBER: Hear: Hear: ~.

B:RETT: So we have never gotten into that type of service, I do not mind telling you that some of our sister ~rovinces that are fairly close, I think Nova Scotia, has gotten up to their neck in this.

It is costing them a fortune and they are trying to find some way out, But as everybody knows, once government starts a programme it is very difficult to give it up, Now the other type of service is the one that I would like to see extended ~and hopefully it will ':V'hen money becomes available / is the re~abilitative kind or the support or the preventive, you know, it is involve~ in the type of service that the department is giving, is ~.;here children can be taken out of homes where the enviromnent is unhealthy and they can be placed in day care centres where they can . rnix with normal healthy children, trained in their development.

In addition to that the ~other is nrobably finding it difficult to cope and in order to maintain her sanity we pretty rr1ell have to take the children out, And again in t he case of LI!'narried :!!Ot~l. ers, \•7e can sonetir.1es take t!l.eir c::ildren, nut t::em into day c2..re centres ~vhich leaves t ~l.e un.0.arried. r::other free to go to cv-or!c and ~ecome indenendent. And then of course ther~ are cases where a mother

Tape ;..;o, 2731 rn.ay have to go in a hospital . '!'~e bread~-1inner ~.,ould nor.nally have to stay hone ar'.d look after the c:t:.lcren, but if He can take the!!! and put the.':! into day centres then the bread~nnne r can go on to work and re:nain independent . So this type of day care service is one, as I have said already t'·rice I think ~that I Hould like to see ~~tended and hopefully it will if the money ever becomes a vailable . ~ - 3 Tue other type of serv ice that I 'lo70uld like to see extended,and again money cones into it, is our homemaker services • That is pretty much like day care except that '•7e have people who

Hay 16, 1977 Tape 2732 Mr. Brett: are properly trained go into the homes and again care for the children maybe while the mother is in hospital, sometimes to care for older people, and rather than place them in costly institutions this again is an excellent type of service and~as I said,one that I hope to see expanded in years to come. Now, Mr. Chairman, I could - my time is up is it? MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): One minute. PK - 1 MR. BRETT: Good. That is fine. I do not want to say any more now; no doubt there will be many questions asked as we go down through the headings. MR. CHAIRMAN: (MR.

YOu~G): The hen. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR.. T • RIDEOUT : Mr. Chairman, I rise to say a few remarks in this debate for the - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Order, please: MR. NEARY: (Inaudjble) MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, yes I rise to lead off a few general remarks in the Social Service Estimates for the official Opposition. I am not the official spokesman for this side but unfortunately the gentleman is not here this morning so I will try to make a few general remarks for our side.

Now, Sir, I can appreciate the serious problem that the minister and his department faces, especially with chronic social services in this Province. But looking through flash sheets and so on this morning,I do not see how we can hope to improve that situation very much unless job opportunities are drastically improved in the Province. Those unemployment figures, and of course they will automatically spell chronic unemployment among our people unless there are job opportunities available for them~then there is not too much else we can expect.

I sort of ~"armed to the work activity programme that the minister has talked about. And I wonder when the minister stands

May 16, 1977 Tape 2732 PK - 2 Mr. Rideout: to reply to some of the points that we raise on this side if in fact he could tell us whether his department has any plans on the books or about to implement any plans to drastically increase and expand this work activity programme? I think the work activity programme could be something to help solve the chronic social assistance cases that we have in this Province.

And if we are going to spend the money on social assistance anyway, and, you know, I am sure we will all admit that we have to, if we have to spend those millions of dollars on social assistance anyway, is there not some possibility or can there be some possibility of channelling more of those funds into work activity projects? If we have to provide millions of dollars each year to keep our people from starving, and of course we have to, then can we not expandthat workactivity progrrunme in every community throughout the Province?

It may not be politically popular, Sir, to say it, but if a man can work I would rather see him work for his social assistance than just have it handed out to him and lie back and do nothing. That I think is the important principle behind this work activity programme. And I can see that this activity programme could - be expanded in eve1~ community throughout this Province.

God knows there is work to be done in every community, that Community Councils cannot afford to do or other local government groups cannot afford to do, but with a greatly expanded work activity programme then that type of work could be done; the social aspect will still have been taken care of because we are providing the social assistance for those people who cannot~through no fault of their own or for whatever other reason~cannot find work, but at the same time they are doing something beneficial for their community.

Now that is a concept that I would like to see the minister address himself to when he stands again in this debate. lfuat plans does his department have to expand that? I believe there are $49,300,000 voted or asked for in the Social Services vote this year. Now we have to pay that money out anyway, whether those people do

May 16, 1977 Tape 2732 PK - 3 Mr. Rideout: I anything or whether they do not have to pay that money out to social assistance recipients. Now I am not talking about disabled people, I am talking about people on able-bodied assistance. Can we not greatly expand this work activity.programme so that anybody who can work will do something of benefit for their community to earn those dollars that we are going to give them on social assistance? Personally I do not see anything wrong with that concept. I think it is the direction that we should be moving.

But, of course, the overriding problem and the greatest problem is the lack of job opportunities for our people in this Province, and we are always going to have this chronic unemployment situation unless we can turn that around. I was sort of disappointed in the way the minister sort of skipped over the unemployment situation that exists in th~s Province today. And I believe that the Minister of Social Services has to take that or the statistics, the unemployment statistics into • a greater account when he is looking at his social services vote.

Now it is all right that 5,000 have been taken off the welfare rolls,and probably they have, but I would like for the minister to tell us, he came with the statistic that 5,000 people were taken off, the minister must be able to tell us how many of those 5,000 people are since back on the social service role in this Province. We were able to come up with the figure that 5,000 came off~

May 16, 1977, Tape 2733, Page 1 -- apb MR. RIDEOUT: we certainly must have done some follow-up study to that. HO!tl many of the..rn are now back on the Social Service rolls. And going through the unemployment statistics for this Province, Sir, we had to keep into account also, of course, that since December or November month of last year we had LIP programmes and whatnot going on and so the Social Service role has been reduced a little bit. Not that significant,as I will get into in a minute, but it has been reduced a little bit.

The thing that really strikes me, Sir, in looking at the vote in the Social Services Department for social assistance, is that despite the fact that social assistance recipients in this Province today, for the lastest statistics that I have here, is greater than last year, despite that fact the Social Service vote has been reduced by more than $1 million. It ___ is _ $49,300,000 the minister is asking for this year, last year $50,400,000.

So despite the fact that the social assistance rol ~s~ have increased, the amount of money asked for in the vote has been decreased by more than $1 million on top of the fact that the minister says they are about to or have increased, as of the 1st. of May, social assistance rates by 6 per cent. Now I want an explanation from the minister of hmv those two facts correlate. The social assistance roles have been climbing and all indications are they are going to continue to climb, yet the vote has been reduced and the rates have been increased.

I cannot see how those two facts bear themselves out, hm·.J" they can be reconciled. l:Jmv I have indicated that social assistance rol l s in the Province have been increasing and from what I can see by looking at figures, that certainl y bears itself out. For example, the lastest one I have is d ated Ap ril 19, 1977

May 16, 1977, Tape 2733, Page 2 -- apb HR. RIDEOUT: and the heads of families and/ or single persons in receipt of short-term assistance as of that date was 9,283 people. That was an increase over the previous month of last year at this time, when - ; then there were 8,152 people receiving social assistance. That is a real inc~ease in percentage terms from one month in one year to the same month in the next year of 13.9 per cent. Mr.

Chairman, you can go right back through all the flash sheets that we all have access to from the - I suppose it is Planning and Priorities Secretariat - but all those flash sheets going right back through the past twelve months show the same thing. Social Service rolls -in the Province have continued to increase. Now I will grant they decreased a little bit 1.vhen the LIP prograrmnes carne into effect in November and December, but the real number of people on social assistance in this Province at any one month in 1976-77, was greater than any month in the past year.

I have gone back over statistics right back as far as the late 1960's, and the real numbers involved in any one particular year have gradually increased, . they have gotten - oh, the minister shakes his head and says no. Well the real numbers for April~l977~as I indicated,were 9,283,the total for 1975, for the whole year~was almost four and-a-half thousand. MR. BRETT: Those are wrong. MR. RIDEOUT: Pardon? HR. BRETT: It is all right. Carry on. ~1R. RIDEOUT: Okay. Well, I mean, those are the figures I have in front of me; if they are wrong the ~inister can correct them when he stands to speak.

AN HON . ~~!EMBER : No, no. They are not wrong. You are not wrong. /

May 16, 1977, Tape 2733, Page 3 -- apb HR. RIDEOUT: used. Just the way they are being But the point I am trying to make, Sir, is that despite the fact that all indications show that the Social Service roll in this Province is going to continue to grow, despite that fact the Social Service vote is being decreased and the rates increased. Now it will be very interesting to me to find out how this can take place.

If the minister has some plans for a nassive job creation programme in the Province, and when I say massive, of course I am not talking about the $2 million programme as well as it may have affected some people last Fall, but it would have to be more significant than that, if the minister has some plans then we would like for him to get into them and outline them to this House. Now I have mentioned the work activity programme and before I sit down I want to mention briefly the rate increase.

There is no doubt about it, Sir, the 6 per cent rate increase will be welcomed by most recipients of social assistance in this Province. r•Jelcomed maybe, but, Sir, it is not enough to take care of the increase in electricity rates since last year. I do not see the social - and I know that we have problems with funds, we have to share out where the pie goes among the various departments, but the social assistance recipient in this Province today, in my mind, is worse off, he has to be worse off than he was last year. Electricity rates themselves have gone up more than 6 per cent.

Telephone rates, fuel bills, food, everything and yet we - last years I believe there was a 10 per cent increase and this year it is down to 6 per cent. So the social service recipient is no better off. In fact, Sir, I would submit to the minister that he is ~vorse off -::han

May 16, 1977, Tape 2733, Page 4 apb r·1R . RIDEOUT: he was last year because the little increase that they got , while it may have been \velcorne , one cent would be wel comed by anybody ~r~ho is one a fixed income, but the little increase tha~ they got is certainly not enough to take care of the cost of living , not even in one situation, t.}}a t of electricity itself. Those people, Sir, are suffering, there is no doubt about that . The increase, while it may have been all the goverP~ent could

:·ray 16 , 19 77 Tape 2734 AH-1 HR. RIDEOUT: come up with,i8 certainly not enough to take care of the cost of increase in livi~g over last year. ·~·1m·l, Sir, that is a fe"lv of tl:le things I \·muld like the minister to address himself to \.;hen he gets up to speak in the debate later on. HR. CRAIPJ:fAL~: Ron.- member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman, I completely agree with my hon. friend who just took his seat, Sir, that the six per cent increase' is not - to people on social assistance, is not enough to even take -care of the increase in the last year in electricity rates.

The increase, Si-;-, is not enough and.,:::-rr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman in making his fe\v introductory remarks introducing his estimates made no reference or very little reference to the increase at all. He told us very little about the state of the people who are forced on welfare in this Province today. It ~·7as a very Tt7eak-k.need,a very poor introduction. There are a number of ministers on the government side of the House, Sir, who think that if they play a low profile that everything will work out all right, that if they do not do anything to rock _ the boat that they are doing their job.

Hell, Sir, the performance of this minister has been one of the worst of any minister in the Hoare's administration. There are t1•TO or three of them over there: Hho say nothing, do nothing, just play a lm.; profile hoping that nobody \vill pay any attention to them and that their problems ;Jill just evaporate, vanish in thin air or go av7ay. T·Tell it is not so'l Sir, and this particular portfolio is about one of' the third or fourth biggest spenders in government and r.7e hear very little about it, very little indeed.

The only time ~.;e can get information out of the ~.inister is Hhen ':ve pry it out of the minister i:: this ~c. on. ~louse . .c'\.nd the :1on. ninister in introducinc.: his estil!\c>.tes really told us nothing about the state of the people Hho are forced on

~:a;r 16.1977 Ta.u~ 273!J. AH-2 social assistance in this ~rovince at t~e rresent tiiT_e, the I.JidoHS, the orol:l.ans, the cri!'ple, the handicanned, t!l.e disa.blec, t'he unemployed. . ,z did not o:et a report~ a satisfactory report.,from the minister and I aT:'. hoping t!l.at I may be able to motivate the minister in my fe~·T remarks to tell us hm·7 the peorle on social assistance in this Province at the present time are living. Are they impoverished, are they living in sub~standard homes, are they getting enough to eat?

Any hon.member of this House, Sir, can stand in his place here today and tell the House that the greater number of complaints that come to members and I do not care 'lvhat district they represent, Hhether it is Labrador Hest ,.,here you have prosperity, my district \.Jhere you have prosperity, I do not care where it is-the biggest number of complaints that any member of this House get are from people on social assistance,impoverished, the halt and the lame and the blind and the sick and the crippled. The minister gets up and shrugs off - Al.'l' RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR.

NEA..~Y: Yes,and the han. gentleman gets more about social assistance I 1vould submit. Every member of this House if he were to tell the truth would stand in his place and say, "I get more complaints about social assistance than any other matter in this Province" Oh my han. friend from Haunt Pearl says no. The people down in }lount ~earl, Sir, do not even knoH the han. gentle1r1..an exists~and I would submit he gets complaints about nothin8. He is just an non-member,does not exist. The only controversy the han. gentleman became involved in since he sat in this House was the AN HON.

HEl--:lliER: The stadium. :'R~ ~·TEP..RY: the stadium; he got into a snarl '..rith the council.

'1ay 16 '19 77 Ta!)e 2731. J>. P.-3 ~ !R . :lEARY : So, ' [r. Chairman, ,,·e ~vould have expecte d more from t ~ e hon . gentle!!'.a;:'l co tell us hoH t he~e :-eo !)le are li vim: . I suppose t~e hon . ~entlem~• doe3 not ~ave to te l l sor.e of us because tve are a\vare of it, He kno•,J. r.;e s~ould be ashall' .ed of the r.;ay He treat people on social assistance, He should be iamn t.Tell ashamed of· it, Sir . You know, ~tr .

C!'lairman, in this day and age , with the eanada Assistance Plan, the i;overnmen t of Cana~a paying fift y per cen t of the cost of \velfare,a.I".d \vith all the social to1elfare programmes that we have, unemplo~F-nt insurance and the like nobody starves to death anymore . E•Jt that does no t mean, ~ rr . Chairman, t hat t hey a r e not undernouri s hed, and underfed and unde r clad - is that the proper Snglish ,underclad? Al~ EON • ! TEUBER : Yes,tha t is alri ght . }1R. ~TEARY : And living in dark, cold, uncomfortable homes . / :::;.

Yav 16, 1977 · Tape no. 2735 "r. Yearv. That is not an exa~?eratjon, Sir. I£ the hon. minister ~-1ants to co!l)e 1dth me, I ~.rill take hi:'! any tiMe, not outside the urban centres either, right in the heart of th:i.s city and shmv the hon. !'1inister a fe~·J hell holes.

And so, Sir, in introducing his estimates, ~.;e c•muld e.."<pect the ~.finister of Social Services to enlighten us to the fact that a lot of these people are going to be uplifted, that they are not going to be forced in the future, in the midst of propserity,- in the midst of the highest standard of living that we have ever kno~m in any industrial country in the ~·mrld, in Canada and here in Newfoundland, and 1ve are not going to force almost 10,000 heads of households into the depths of poverty. ..c.nd the hon . minister can get up and do all the fancy figure skating on thin ice tre hon. minister Fants , but these people, Sir, - are suffering, because they are forced on social assistance.

And ~men the l!lini.ster had -'ln opportunity in Otta"t-ra - or the minister's predecessor - to join-- r.Tith the other provinces of Canada in encouraging the Governl!'.ent of Canada to implement the guaranteed annual incoT!!e, NeHfoundland turned thumbs down on it, said, 11 No, 1,re cannot afford it." I submit, Sir, that we cannot ignore it any longer. And the guaranteed annual incoiT'e is ~oing to come in Canada 7 ·rhether ~e~rfoundland participates or not.

And our people here 7:rill lose out unless this goverment is prepared to r..rork along Td_th the Government of Canada to implement the ~uaranteed annual inco!'l.e ?.t an early C.ate as 1JOSsible. ~'r. Chair!I'.an, there ,,ras a ti!'1e back a f eH years ago .-...7 hen sociaJ ~,Telfare refo!"!'ls r,_,.ere the issue of the dav. !hey vere tl--.e ~i.'?. t':1ing. Every~oc'ly talkec'l 8.bout social 'velfare · reforr.1s, anc I r.e.r.1ertJer ~reat orators anc .rre.::'-t ooliticic.ns ar.c ?'':'eat states":!!en cor!e 011t and say t~at the Li"Jernl ro·vcrn.ment T,Tc~s the co,Jernrrent of refor~.

Fvery social velfare - every piece of social welfare legislation i::. ranacla car::e fro!" a Liberal Govern~ent-,we T·!P"·e tole.

~fay 16 , 19 77 '!'ape D.o. 2735 Pc>.ge 2 - !"S 'fr. ::ieary. Insurance Act, the Canada Assistance Plan, the old a?e pensions. veterans' allm-:ances, family a] loHances, all great Liberal ref oms. And then all of sudden a couple of years a~o, two or three years ago, the Chambers of Comrnerce and the Eoards of Trade and the ~v-ell-to-co and the high mucky-mucks car:~e out and said, "Ah, they are all too lazy to go to work. You are spoilL~g our people. You are encouraging them to loaf, to get on unemployment insurance, to get on ,,7 elfare.:· And then this becar .e popular.

You --:·muld not be in style unless you sa.id,"Oh, yes, that is right. I cannot fet anybody to paint my house. I cannot get anybody to cut the grass. They are too lazy. All they want is rmemploymen t insurance, and all they want is welfare.'' And I say that is a myth, and it is not true, and it is phony. And the people -nine chances out of ten the people ~,rho are saying it are the reople T,.Jho are m~nkeys - on the bacl:s of the ta.'-::payers t1;.err:selves o Hho are these people that are saying this? They are people that are earning their livelihood either directly ~ a lot of them - e