VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 8:00 p.m. TUESDAY, MAY 23, 1978 NO. 66 . '

M,ay 23, 1978 The House met at 2:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Tape 3379 DH - l Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I know the sympathies and deep feelings of alr han. members are today with our colleague, the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow),who lost two of his brothers durirg the weekend. The han. member's brother, Dan Woodrow of Northern Bay, died on Saturday, Hay 20 ,and his brother, tlike l~oodrow of St. George' s,auccumbed to a cardiac arrest on Sunday,May 2l,whilst driving to Northern Bay to attend the funeral. Mr.

Speaker, this is indeed a very said occasion for the han. member for Bay of Islands,for his family and the families of his brothers. I know han. members on both sides of this House will join me in extending to them our sincerest sympathy during this time of bereavement. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to extend our deepest sympathy to the family of the Reverend Father Hubert Whelan,an assistan~ priest at the Basilica of St. John the Baptist,w~o died suddenly in St. John's yesterday. Father Whalen,who served in many ?arishes in the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of St.

John's.is survived by his father and mother,Ur. and Mr~. Raymond Whelan of Placentia,as well as three brothers,one of whom is Mr. Tom Whalen,the Deputy Minister of Public Works,and one sister. To all his family and friends my deepest sycpathy in this time of bereavement. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile.

'( ,;·. May 23, 1978 Tape 3379 HR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my colleagues and I ~~ere deeply shocked and saddened to learn today of the sad passing of two of the brothers of the hon. member for Bay of Islands,his brothers Daniel and Michael; and we ioin with DW - 2 the Government House Leader in extending our sincerest deepest sympathy and condolences to our colleague and to the members of the family. And we also, Sir, would like to join also with the Government House Leader in expressing our deep sympathy to the family of the late ~ather Hubert WhP1~n. the assistant priest at the Basilica of St.

John the Baotist in the Archdiocese who died suddenly,! believe,died at his parents horne in Placentia over the weekend. MR. MURPHY: MR. S. NEARY: resid~nce here in St. John's. At the residence, I believe. I beg your pardon? In the Well, Sir, we are deeply saddened to hear of the passing of the Reverend Father Whelan who hapoened to be a very personal friend of mine,who said Mass just about every Sunday morning for a year and a half or two years at Nagle's Hill at Our Lady of Lourdes Parish where I happen to go to church with my family every Sunday morning.

And in addition to serving in the Basilica Parish,Father Whelan also served in the parishes of St. Patrick's here in St. John's, Mount Carmel, Cape Broyle, Ferryland and Rushoon. He is survived by his mother and father and sister and three brothers,as my han. friend has just pointed out,one of whom is the Deputy Minister of Public Works. So, Sir, we extend our sincerest and deepest sympathy and condolences to our c~lleague and to the parents and the family of these people wto passed away over the weekend.

Hay 23, 1978 Tape 3379 DW - 3 STATEMENTS BY ~NISTERS IlR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege has risen. l1R. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter affecting,! believe,my privileges as a member of this House. Your Honour knows as do all hon. members that this is the first time since I took my place in this House in Novenber 1975 that I have risen on-a matter of privilege.

I do so now because I believe my privileges have been affected and if Your Honour finds that a prima facie case of privilege exists then I am prepared to move the appropriate motion at the appropriate time. Mr. Speaker, on Mondav~ Aoril 17, 1978 while I was speaking in the Address in Reply debate, I tabled a letter written by the han. Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Peckford) to one Ms. Dwyer of Baie Verte.

The letter, which all han. members have a copy of - I believe it was distributed-lvas in my opinion at that time callous and arrogant and contemptible.! took the minister to task for writi~g such a letter and I believe it was my duty to do so. Today, Sir, I received a letter from the Minister of Mines and Energy and since it affects my actions in this House I will also table that letter to the House.

The letter that I tabled on Monday April 18 and the one that I am tabling today,neither one of them was marked private or confidential so therefore I will treat them as public documents and have no hesitation in laying them on the table of the House. !hat is point number one. Mr. Speaker, the letter that I received today is addressed to me and it says the following: "I am writing you now regarding your recent tabling of a piece of private J ~

!lay 23, 1978 Tape 3379 MR. RIDEOUT: correspondence from me to one ~Is. DWyer of Baie Verte. That letter was tabled out of the ~nn tP.xt of the previous correspondence and when I was absent from my seat in the Rouse.I received no call from you or Ms. DWyer to the effect that such a move was to be made. Such tactics are not at all honourable and I o;;ould expect better from a tnember of the Hou.se of Assembly. I would pleased to have your apology or the handling of this mat·ter . " Now, Mr. Speaker, the second pgint that I want to make and the most serious poin t is ~~at part of the letter that I have just read and nP. - 4

May 23, 1978 Tape 3380 PK - 1 Mr. Rideout: II which I will lay on the Table in a few minutes,which says, Such tactics are not at all honourable, and I would expect better from a member. of the House of Assembly." Sir, I believe that this statement is an imputation of motives. If my tactics were not honourable then they must have been dishonourable. Since the imputation of dishonourable conduct arises because of actions that I took here in the House,on the floor of this House,then I would submit to Your Honour that my privileges have been ~uestioned and affected and abused by the Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr.

Speaker, when I tabled the initial letter last Monday I gave the House the undertaking at that time in response to a ~uestion from the other side that I would Table all of the documents related to that letter. I now have those documents in my possession and I will,when I take my seat,lay the whole lot of documents,the four letters in ~uestion,on the Table of the House. The documents will show clearly, Mr. Speaker, and beyond doubt that the lady in ~uestion did not write any nasty or provocative letters to the minister.

The only nasty, arrogant letter was the one that I tabled written by the minister to Miss Dwyer on May 3, 1978. Mr. Speaker, the minister in his letter to me asked for an apology for my tactics, tactics that I used here in the House,not outside. I apologize, Mr. Speaker, to Miss Dwyer for having to be the recipient of such an arrogant and nasty letter from the minister of the Crown, and I apologize to the people of Baie Verte who have been so callously let down by the minister responsible for mining. But, Mr, Speaker, I apologize to the minister for my actions in this House, never will I do it.

I believe that the minister in his letter has undoubtedly '!_uestioned my motives. He has impugned motives of dishonorable conduct on my part, and I have no intention of taking that, Mr. Speaker, from any member of this House. As I said to Your Honour,I am prepared to move the appropriate motion if Your Honour considers it necessary once a prima facie case has been established. For the benefit of that 1 if Your Honour would ask the Page to bring this to Your Honour and all of the other documents that I will lay on the Table of the House.

May 23, 1978 Tape 3380 PK - 2 SOME RON. MEMBERS: Name him! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I submit that the hon. member has not made a prima facie case as it relates to privilege of this House or of an hon. member of this House. If any of the phraseology or wording of that letter can be interpreted as obviously the hon. member has interpreted it as imputing motive on the hon. gentleman,! categorically state that the wording of that letter, in my opinion, does not impute motive.

If it so does I absolutely and categorically say that I did not intend it to impute motive. What I intended and how I read the letter that I wrote and that I signed is that I deplored the methodology by which the hon. member publicized the letter from Mrs. Dwyer and failed to publicized other correspondence therefore giving a wrong impression of the overall circumstances of the situation. I in no way impute motive on the hon. ~entleman. But I reiterate that in my view that it was extreme 1 discourtesy and a wrong way about trying to disclose information between myself and a citizen of this Province. SOME liON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I have heard the hon. gentleman who made this submission, and the hon. the member who replied. I am in a position now to make a ruling on it. There is always a discretion in the Chair as to how much submission one needs hear. I think there are times when there is ~uite some complexity and the Chair even invites members, and there are times when the matter is not complex, and one submission from either side does satisfy it. So in my judgment that is the case here, that it is a matter Pot of great complexity.

Having heard the han. member who raised the point of privilege and the hon. gentleman toward whom the breach of privilege was alleged,.the Chair is now in a position to make the ruling. I would draw to the attention of hon. members, and I will read from page 100 of Beauchesne, and this is

Section 110, and it is the last half of it, on page 100. "To consitutue a breach of privilege a liable upon a member must concern his character or

May 23, 1978 Tape 3380 PK - 3 Mr. Speaker: conduct in his capacity as a member and the conduct or language on which the liable is based muct be actions performed or words uttered in the actual transaction of the business of the House. Bad faith must be imputed and the charge cannot be

::ay 23,1976 Tape ;'lo. 33.31 Ah-1 .ili.. SPE,\KER: indefillite.U I draw particular reference to the stipulation that bad faith must i:c1puted and the char;;e cannot be indefinite.

The 1vords to which the hon. gentleman takes exception are , I think there are essentially two, one and the second part of a sentence, "I would expect better from a member of t:1e liouse of Assembly." I would find it difficult to regard that as any breach of privilege, any hon. member's expectations viz - a viz anotner hon. member's are hardly matters of privilege unless that were to be followed by some statement which IJOuld impugn bad wotive or make allegations of a serious nature.

The first part,and it is the one to which the hon. gentleman drew specific attention ,"Such tactics are not at all honourable." llow I will =efer back to Beauchesne again~especially to that reference that "!lad faith must be imputed and the charge cannot be indefinite." I cannot see t:1at t .1ere is an imputation of baci. faith in sayi :lg tl!z.t the tactics are not at all honourable. He did not say that the hon. member was not honourable; there is no direct impugning or in my opinion even an indirect, i~nntlltion of the hon. member's motives.

There obviously is a very serious difference of opinion as to the nature of the tactics; there is obviously that, a very serious difference of opinion as to the nature of the tactics.

And one could see that when there is some relevant motion before the House the matter could be debated on a motion broad enough,but I do not think that that allegation, "SuCh tactics are not at all honourable" fulfills the requirement of the imputation of bad faith because when one rules on a prima facie privilege what one is really doing is saying that this matter is of such a nature that it will take immediate precedence before all the other orders or_ the Order Paper, When one says there is no prima facie case,one is not saying the matter cannot be debated but one is saying it l~s to wait the calling of an appropriate motion to be debated.

So I do not view that statement as of such a nature that it would take priority over all of the other Standing Orders on the Order Paper today.

:b.y 23 , 1970 "1R._ N_§_A)~: ­ lilt. _SP~_R:_ ;!R. ~ARY: To.pe i<o . 3331 0 0 0 A point of order. A point of order. Ali-2 T'ne iJDn. i.'linister of Hines anci Energy a few moments a 0o, Sir, in speaking to a po~1t of privilege cade a false and incorrect statement in this House, tnat the press were not in possession of all the documentation in connection ,.,ith the point of privilege that was just raised by ~y han. friend. Ti~at is untrue, llr. Speaker. It is a false statement, it is malicious, the press are - ;.;It, SPL\K.ER: Order, please!

I ~ust ask the han. gentlegan to witnd.ra,v'-;nalicious~ Whetherit is false or not as long as there is no imputation of deliberate falsehood, but malicious I would have to ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw. !fll. NEARY: 1-lell,I ·..rithdraw it, Sir, and I say to the han. gentleman now and to ·~he House t:1at ttle press are in possession and have been in possession of all the documentation up to the letter received by my han. friend , ;.,hen was it? This morning, was it? - _nn to that point the press were in pcssession of all the letters and all the documentation.

My han. friend should withdraw that remark and apologize to the House or be named by Your Honour. MR. ~ECKFOR.D: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. NR, SPEAKER: On the point of order, the hon. minister. MR.. PECKFORD : My statement was that the press did not have all the correspondence relating to the situation at that time when the han. member for llaie Vette - l.fuite Bay (Hr. Rideout) saw fit to re .­ lease one of the letters that was sent to the person in question in Baie Verte at that time because - ¥R. NEARY: Do not be playing with words. Apologize! MR.

PECT<FOlUl: - members of the press came to me reauesting additional correspondence - MR. NEARY: Mr. Walsh came to see you did he? MR. PECKFORD: - about the sitnation which proves that they did not have all the information. Rut nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, there is no point of order before the Chair.

'ey 23, 1971! Tape 3381 l:l - 3 Order, please! The dis!'ute is one of a question of fact, whether the press had certain documentation or did not have certain docwnentation. I do not see that there is a matter of the order of the Rouse that I can deal w1th. They either have it or they do not have it, 1 do no t know which, and 1 do not think it is a matter on whi.ch I can make any decision. S1'ATID1Et-ITS BY MINISTF.RS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, it is not really, I guess,a Statement by .!inist .ers ! should be !laying this on. ! just wanted to apologize tor being late, I was meeting with the new Deputy Minister of Fisheries from Ottawa and I just wanted to get up and officially go along With and be part of these two statements that wer(' made earlier, one i

I) Eay 23, 1978 Tape 3382 EC - 1 PREMIER MOORES: in passing sympathy to the family of the Reverend Father Hubert Whelan, but even more particularly, the death of the two brothers of our colleague from Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow). I personally knew both brothers and I just want to go on record officially as being very sorry and to extend my own sympathy as well as that of the House. I just ~·ant to be on record, Sir, for saying that. PRESENTING PETITIONS HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Terra Nova. :tR. LUSU: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave of the House to present a petition on behalf of 332 residents of Port Blandford. The petition is sponsored by the Local Improvement district of Port Blandford. And to get right into the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, it says, "To the hon. House of Assembly; we, the undersigned residents of Port Blandford, strongly object to your government's spray programme, especially as it applies to the area near Port Blandford.

All information we have at our disposal leads us to believe that there is a definite risk to the health of humans in a spray of this nature and the fact that your government is not prepared to do a full-scale programme lends support to this idea. We cannot understand what benefit it can be to Newfoundland to select 590 acres right on the doorstep of a community for that type of programme. There are lots of wilderness areas far removed from human habitation for experiments if they must be done for these reasons. We earnestly hope that your government will cancel this spray programme." .l Now, Mr.

Speaker, the main plea of this petition is that the government spray programme as it is applied to the Port Blandford area be cancelled.

May 23, 197 8 Tape 3382 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: It certainly has a broader perspective, that the total programme be cancelled, but more specifically the programme as it applies to the Port Blandford area. Mr.

Speaker, aerial insecticide spraying has become a most controversial issue right across this land, and in view of the lack of any substantial evidence to support the effectiveness of spraying, indeed there seems to be much evidence to support the contrary that insecticide spraying is not very effective in controlling the spruce budworm, and also in view of the harmful effects that it has on human beings, then I think that the people of Port Blandford are justified in their concern. And it would seem almost a case of arrogance that the government would spray an area so close to a community. Mr.

Speaker, at its furthest point the spray programme will be two miles from Port Blandford and at the closest point it will be six-tenths of a mile from the nearest home - so that is two miles from its furthest point and one-half mile from its closest point. Additionally, the spray programme is marked to the Northeast of Port Blandford and to the West of the boundaries there are also three major rivers- a watershed area- that flow right into the community of Port Blandford. Again, the Southwest River is the borderline for the spray programme.

Then there is a river called Salmon River which is four miles away from the spray area flowing right into Port Blandford. Then the other river, the Northwest River, is five miles away. So here we have three rivers - a watershed area - and the town's supply of water comes from the watershed area flowing right into the town . So, as I said in the beginning, Mr. Speaker, the people of Port Blandford are justified in their extreme concern over this matter of

~f ay 23, 1978 Tape 3382 EC - 3 lfR. LUSH: sprayin g an area so close to their community, and particularly in view of the hazards to health that have been proven in certain quarters and in view of the lack of any substantial supportin g evidence -i ..

~~ '. I May 23, 1978 Tape No. 3383 NM- 1 MR. LUSH: that this spray will control the population of the spruce budworm. Indeed there is a great amount of information stating that the spray that is being used, the spruce budworm spray does not indeed control the spruce budworm. Nova Scotia, they have now cancelled their spray programme because it was not very effective. New Brunswick - MR. NEARY: They did not start it. MR.

LUSH: New Brunswick has been carrying on a spray programme since 1952 and again that they have got evidence that it is not controlling the spruce budworm at ail, that still they are getting a lot of infestation. The Province of Quebec, they have been spraying since 1968, again with very little substantantive facts. And Manitoba, one province that carried on an experimental programme and they too find that the aerial insecticide spraying is not very effective. In view, Mr.

Speaker, of the experiences of other sister provinces, I am wondering whether the government has looked very carefully into the effects of spray, into _the usefulness .of spraying and particularly, Mr.

Speaker, when we are going to spray in an area so close as is the case here with reference to Port Blandford, and I would hope that the minister would accord the people of Port Blandford the same courtesy that he has done with the people in Gander and cancel the spray programme as it is now applied to the community of Port Blandford, coming within two miles of the community at its furthest distance , and within a half a mile at the closest distance.

I certainl y hope that the minister would look into this and as I have said before, afford the people of Port Blandford the same courtesy that he applied the people of Gander, to allay the fears of the people of the Port Blandford area. MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. member for

:lay 23, 1978 Tape No. 3383 NH - 2 MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile,I would welcome to the House of Assembly, on behalf of all han. members, thirty-eight grade eight students from Foxtrap Junior High, accompanied by two of their teachers, Mr. R. Wicks and Mr. R. Raymond. I know han. members join me in welcoming these students to the House of Assembly. MR. NEARY: so ably presented by my - i1R. MAYNARD: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MAYNARD: The han. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I support the petition A point of order. A point of order has come up. Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the han. member for Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush) did not mean to mislead the House in any way. However, I must point out the fact that his statement in regards to Gander is not correct. I have no cancelled any programme in Gander, nor have I indicated that I was going to cancel one and I just want to bring that to the attention of the hon. member because I am sure he did not mean to give any incorrect information to the House • MR. SPEAKER: It is not a matter obviously on which the Chair has any involvement. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the petition so ably presented by my han. colleage, the member for Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush), Sir, on behalf of 332 residents of Port Blandford. It is a very serious matter, Sir, that the hon. gentleman has raised and the people raise in the prayer of the petition. It is one of the most serious matters, Mr. Speaker, ever to be brought-before this House, involving, Sir, the health of the whole community of Port Blandford. And as my hon. friend indicated, the same principle could be applied to other communities throughout the Province where spraying is to take place. It is frightening, Mr. Speaker, when

:>!ay 23, 1978 Tape No. 3383 ~ . NEARY: you think that spraying will be done one-sixth of a mile from the community , two miles from the centre of the community of Port Blandford, Sir. It is frightening . And it is also frightening, Mr.

Speaker, when you realize that the insecticide that is being used , !iatacil, has never really been tested and the mini.ster answering questions, Sir . in this House some time ago, informed the Rouse when being queseioned by members of the Opposition, that Matacil was only registered in the United States recently on a temporary oasis and now it is going to be used in ~ewfoundland to make guinea pigs out of '!<ewfoundlanders. It is really, Sir, a pilot project that they are carrying out here in Canada and the minister should reconsider and cancel the whole spray programme altogether. Only this week~nd, ~r.

Speaker, I was out on the West Coast of the Province and

~ay 23, 1978 Tape 3384 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Itwas brought to my attention, Sir, that the Matacil is in barrels out on the tarmac out in Stephenville. There are no safety regulations. I am told that it should be stored indoors. It is stored outdoors. And what happens, Sir, when you get the blazing sun and the heat from the tarmac? Will these barrels burst and will the insecticide fly all over the place? No handbooks given to the people - only now the minister's officials are getting handbooks on safety ready in the minister's department. And the first week in June the spraying is going to take place. Mr.

Speaker, the government do not realize what they are doing. They do not know what they are doing in th~s particular case, Sir, when they go within one-sixth of a mile of the community of Port Blandford. There will be other petitions. Mr. Speaker, I forecast now in this House there will be other petitions in connection with this spraying programme that has been so irresponsibly decided upon by the administration. Mr. Speaker, I would not mind it so bad if the alternatives had been explored, like they did in Nova Scotia.

My han. friend pointed out that in New Brunswick they have been spraying for over twenty years and they still have not done anything with the spruce budworm. As a matter of fact, the situation is worse. They are now producing in New Brunswick a super budworm. My hon. friend sneers and laughs at that, but that is true, Sir. MR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: the facts. These are not the facts. The hon. gentleman does not have The han. gentleman cannot tell us the consequences of Matacil upon the health of the people of this Province. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I must require han. members on both sides to observe the rule that there

~lay 23, 1978 Tape 3384 EC - 2 :IR. SPEAKER: should be no interruptions when another han. member is speaking. And I think that that is a rule, the observance of which should be universal every day and without the Chair being required to repeat it. HR. NEARY: I thank Your Honour for the protection of the Chair. !1r. Speaker, people are scared and frightened and uneasy in this Province at the present time about the decision of the government to go ahead with this spraying programme without exploring the alternatives, Sir.

In Nova Scotia, Premier Regan made an announcement some time ago that they were going to cut the wood that had been affected by the spruce budworm and that they were going to step up their reforestation programme. They were going to cut down the dead wood either for export - and I believe they are having some problems exporting it - but they could use it in the sawmills, use it in the paper mills, stockpile it. And here we are, Sir, out here with a linerboard mill closed down because they have no wood.

The alternatives, Sir, have not been investigated, and before the government got into this spraying programme they should have explored the alternatives and gone to the Government of Canada and tried to make a deal to build roads into the wooded area that has been damaged by the spruce budworm where we have five million cords of wood that will be lost to Newfoundland forever unless it is cut in the next two or three years.

The wood, Sir, could be exported, it could be used in a linerboard mill, it could be used in the sawmills that are closing down all over this Province because they are not allowed to go in on the Bowater and Price property to cut wood. And here is the wood dama~ed by the spruce budworm and it will be lost to Newfoundland forever unless it is

I1ay 23, 1978 Tape 3384 EC - 3 HR. NEARY: cut in the next two or three years. Some of it we cannot salvage at all. It is too far gone, and the time has run out. I understand it is a five year period, Sir, in which that wood has to be cut. I would like for the government, Sir, to reconsider this matter of spraying. !,personally- and I am not speaking for my party - I think everybody should be freed up in this House to vote accordin g to the dictates of his own conscience in connection with this spraying programme. I, personally, am against it because the gov"ernment have not investigated the alternatives.

And the alternatives are lying right on our doorstep in our sister province of Nova Scotia. So, Mr. Speaker, I support the petition and I do hope the government will reconsider this very grave and serious matter that could very easily, Sir, not only kill the wildlife and affect the environment in this Province, but injure the health of hundreds, literally thousands of Newfoundlanders where the spraying is going to take place. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Windsor - Buchans. HR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I find no difficulty in rising to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague from Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush), and so ably supported by the member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary), and I suspect, Mr. Speaker, that this is not going to be the last petition which will be presented in this House with regard to the spray programme . It has been indicated in this House since this session started , Sir, and since we realized that there would be a major,massive spray programme, that this should be the subject of a

May 23, 1978 Tape 3385 PK .,. 1 Mr . Flight: full scale debate. The people in this Province are frightened. They have had no input at all in the government's decision to spray. They know the government is using a chemical,Matacil. And I hope that the Minister of the Environment rises in this debate to assure the people of Newfoundland that the Department of the Environment is aware of what will happen when Matacil is sprayed in this Province. The minister's department is being criticized as to whether or not the programmes will even be monitored this year ade~uately.

I would like to hear the minister indiuate as to what just plans are within the Department of the Environment for the monitoring of that spray programme this year. Mr. Speaker, we are not aware of the side effects of the chemical that is being used. The government refused to use the chemical that their own Committee on the Spruce Budworm Spray Programme recommended, and instead selected a chemical that they categorically recommended should not be used due to a lack of awareness on the side effects of Matacil on both the off target organisms or for that matter human health. Mr.

Speaker, the member for LaPoile: ·(Mr. Neary) indicated that government have not to this point- and certainly if they have, they have not convinced the public of Newfoundland- that they have considered the alternative to a spray programme. A spray programme is irreversible; after we have sprayed the black spray the damage,if there is any,is irreversible. You cannot take it back. And, Mr. Speaker, the minister should indicate when he stands up what were the criteria for establishing the blocks we are going to spray.

Who designated a block within one-sixth of a mile of Port Blandford knowing full well that the water supply of that town would be subject to spray? MR. NEARY: The paper companies. MR. FLIGHT: Direct target spraying, not drift, not the possibility of drift, but designated an area that is one-sixth of a mile from a town and a town water supply.

\ ~ · May 23, 1978 Tape 3385 PK - 2 MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, we have got sawmills in this Province shutdown, we have got 5 million or 6 million cords of wood dead or moribund on the stump. The minister has not indicated to this House at any time why he has not choose some of the alternatives. No salvaging programme announced. No reforestation, plans for reforestation. He talks about a reforestation programme. Most of the dead wood and the wood to be sprayed is on Price and Bowaters limits. And there is no reforestation oronramme under practice today with those paper companies.

Natural revegetation is the only thing that they are aware of. Now why it is that the minister has refused up to this ooint to allow the people of Newfoundland to get involved in that decision? Why it is that the Minister of the Environment is not prepared to relieve the fears of the hundrens of thousands of people who will be affected by this spray programme? Why it is that the minister has refused to discuss the alternatives and refused to accept the fact that Nova Scotia has taken a stand aaainst soraying, when Nova Scotia's problem is dramatic or worse than ours?

Why it is that the minister will not acknowledge that the forests of New Brunswick today are in a worse mess than they ever would have been without a spray programme. The han. Minister Maclean of Nova Scotia indicated that after twenty- five years spraying that the forests of New Brunswick is not the envy of anyone who would practice good forest management. And, Mr. Speaker, I think that we are into an irreversible,dangerous situation.

This is not going to be the last petition, and the government is going to have some explaining to do to all o4 the people of this Province and particularly the areas around which they have designated their spray areas. The minister has not answered the question, Mr. Speaker; neither the Minister of Forestry or the Minister of the Environment have involved the public of this Province enough into this spray programme.

And he is going to find out that they are concerned enough that before the spray programme is over this Summer he is going to have one terrible can of worms on his hands;that you are going to have people both inside the areas that have been sprayed, people living in the confines or on the limits that have been sprayed, as well as the general public

· ~ May 23, 1978, Tape 3385, Page 3 -- PK MR. FLIGHT: of Newfoundland up in arms over this programme and the ways they have approached it as an open invitation to anyone who wants to oppose it, Mr. Speaker, the spray programme has been designed to this point, and it has been considered almost in a secretiv e attitude. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ill-conceived. MR. FLIGHT: - Ill- conceived. We have had none of the answers that the public around this Province have been asking . This is the place for the answers . Mr. Speaker, there should be a full - scale debate.

And until the minister is in a position to indicate co the people of Newfoundland just what the implication of this spray programme is t hen he should dir ect his authorities to the Department of Forestr y to hold off on a spray programme. We are doing something that we do not know what the answer is , and we are jeopa rdizing the health of our people , we are jeopardizing our whole ecology for something that can at best have a short-term effect. So, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the minister to reco ns ider his sp ray programme, not only in the area that is so vividly pointed out by the member for Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush), but in all of Newfoundland until we know what we are getting into. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

~, ' Tape No. 3386 Pl-!-1 HR. SPEAKER: Hon. cember for Port an Port. NR. dODDER: Hr. Speaker, I too am concerned. I am pleased to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague from Terra Nova on behalf of the people of Port Blandford. The West Coast of the Province is an ?rea which will be receiving massive spraying in the comi...-:::g months and already in that area the groups and people are becoming quite concerned about what is happening in the area.

One thing that bothers me particularly about the application of spraying, and it is a question to '~hich the minister might address himself when he stands to support the petition or to speak on the petition,is whether there will be warnings for people who will be in the woods, for campers,because in those particular areas on the West Coast as the minister knows ti1ere are :nany salmon rivers, there are many areas outside the provincial parks where people camp and at any given time during the Summer months, particularly on good da;·s,people =11 be in the woods and I tl~ not hink I would like to be there myself \-lith ;uy family and small children, anci I ~o not think the general public should be subjected to spraying.

I think that there must be warnings through the media and in the press, advanced warnings as to when particular areas are go:.ng to be sprayed. Not only that, l1r.

Speaker, but in addressing myself more specifically to the Port Blandford problem I understand that one of the studies done here in Newfoundland last year showed that only about twenty to thirty per cent,under given con~itions,of the spray actually ended up on the ground, depending on wind velocities 1and even on calill days wheli -t:1ere ~;as no wind, "·arm days the finer particles of spray still do not- they sort. of rise with the rising air and the people who test it or checked it to see what percentage • of ti"le chemical would be found on the ground afterward found anywhere from, with a t>;enty ounces per acre spray, found 2. 8 to 12. 8 ounces in these particul~r areas.

Now these figures were figures that were given me. However, the minister cannot deny that a great percentage of that particular chemical is not recovered and that

:ray 23,1970 Tape :-Ia. 3386 .:\l~-2 ~·D.t . HODDER: means that it drifts elsewhere. Just one ot her thing that I would like to say, ~!r.

Speaker, about this whole problem is that I think it is a joke, I suppose, a Newfie joke , that vhile the Linerboard IU..ill, the Labrador I.inerboard mill was going down because of a lack of a cheap wood supply,and wh~le we were paying $104 a cord,and while the government was supposedl y trying to find a cheap source of wood supply and negotiating with the two paper companies in this Proviuce,and particularly the fact t:1at the spruce budworm attacked the l>'est Coast first and has been there for the last four or five or si:c years and that is where the most damage has occured and that is where Bowater's limits are, while we were taking wood from Crown land and from Southwest Brook and a couple of areas, and wood from Central Newfoundland and wood from Labrador,the government was supposedly negotiating with Price and Bowaters and the paper companies were saying, "No, you cannot come onto out land.

We will not transfer blocks of wood to you." And while the government was sayil}~. "We will close the Liuerboard mill because the cost of wood is too great," all of this tilne the spruce budworm was insidiously taking and killing the wood and now nobody has the wood; the mill is closed and nobody has the wood. Mr. Speaker, I think we are too late.

I do not think we should have started this spraying, I think two years ago we should have been cutting out the stands that were attacked; they should have been used in that Linerboard mill,and I also think that instead of the spray programme we should have embarked on a harvesting programme to provide some jobs. :·Iy particular district was one where ti1c people were working in the woods with Labrador Linerbodrd Limited and then were the first to go~ they did not get any severence pay or anything. But the thi~ is they were the first to go, the year before tile mill closed when they stopped cutting.

I also believe I have never seen forest improvement techniques of any. sort here in this Province and I think that that is the way we should have taken instead of spraying when we do not know what we are dcing with the spray and we do not know what the spray is , doin~ to us.

May 23, 1978 Tape No. 3387 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde followed by the han. gentleman for Conception Bay South. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation at all in supporting the petition presented by my colleague, the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), on behalf of 332 residents of Port Blandford. And, Sir, I do so not necessarily as an M.H.A. or even as a member of the Liberal Party, but because of my knowledge of biology and chemistry, haviniZ been a biology and chemistry teacher, both at the high school and the university level.

Now, Sir, one of the first things you learn about any kind of a drug or an insecticide that you are going to try out on insects or human beings is that these drugs or medications,or insecticides in this case, are subjected to the severest of clinical or laboratory tests, the severest. Now, Sir, I have not had any indication from any hon. member opposite or the minister, to what extent Matacil or Aminocarb, whatever you want to call it, has been subjected to the severest of laboratory tests in order for it, number one, not to be used at large, but to be used experimentally in the field.

That is the way the thing progresses. You come up with a new insecticide, you test it first in a laboratory under the most strenuous conditions, controlling all the factors, and then and only then do you subject it to the field. And, Sir, if there are questions still unanswered, which there are certainly Questions unanswered with respect to the effects of Matacil, if there are still questions to be answered during these field experimental setups, the last thiniZ you do, Sir, is to conduct an insecticide experiment next to a human population. MR. FLIGHT: Guinea pigs. MR. F. ROWE: Next to a human population, Sir.

Is it one-sixth or six-tenths - MR. NEARY: One-sixth.

Hay 23, 1978 Tape No. 3387 NN - 2 MR. F. ROWE: One-sixth of a mile from Port Blandford they are going to take Matacil or Aminocarb, very little known about it, and they are going to spray it. Now, Sir, anybody knows what the wind conditions are like in this particular Province.

Heavens only knows where it is going to drop, what water supplies, in the river itself, watersheds, right on the human population, and besides that, Sir, even with the calmest days here in this Province, we all know that there is a severe wind or heat updraft, and not only are the pilots lives in danger under these circumstances, but Heavens knows where this insecticide, !tatacil or Aminocarb, lands in the final analysis. We do know that something less than thirty or forty per cent land on the target area. The question is, Sir, where does the other seventy or sixty per cent land?

Now I would submit, Sir, that this Aminocarb has not been subjected to the proper field experimentation. I do not know so much about the lab or clinical experimentation. MR. FLIGHT: None at all. MR. F. ROWE: None at al~ my colleague says. But one thing we do know, Sir; where this insecticide has been used where the spruce budworm has been sprayed, the egg mass count has in fact increased rather than decreased in the case of New Brunswick,is it? MR. NEARY: MR. F. ROWE: MR. FLIGHT: MR. F. ROWE: Yes. It actually increased.

Nova Scotia has not sprayed - Nova Scotia, where they are not using the spray, Sir, the egg mass of the spruce budworm is decreasing. Sir, I submit that this government sat on its posterior extremity watching the budworm taking over the forests of this Province and all of a sudden find themselves backed into . a corner where they have to take some drastic action. MR. NEARY: Panic. Panic.

.fay 23, 1978 Tape No . 3387 NM- 3 MR. F. ROWE: And it is a panic action, I would submit, in using this !!Pray that is not proven to do the job in the killing off of the spruce budworm a1;1d the Aalvation of the forests, and my colleagues have mentioned the other alternative ·s that can be used.

But, ~ir, as a former biology and chemistry professor and teacher, not only do I see the fact that the proper field experiments have not been carried out in isolated areas away from . human population, and if at all possible away from other · animal population, but it puts a great alDOU1lt of fear in me, Sir, in not knowing what the ~ide effects of this particular insecticide will be. Sir, we may not know whether there will be changes in the blood stTUcture, the bone stTU.cture, the nervpus system or what have you.

This generation, the next generation, the third generation, every day they ue turning up with simple things like saccharin, where they learn that there is a cancer causing mechanism in the third generation ()f mice,

~ay 23, 1978 Tape 3388 DW- 1 MR. F. ROWE: Here we are, Sir, taking a very dangerous insecticide a dropping it right down on Port Blandford • • MR. NEARY: l~en there are other alternatives. MR. F. ROWE: When there are other alternatives, Sir. I submit, Sir, that any member opposite-the Minster of Health .. I wish we could hear from the Minister of Health on this. MK. Nt:ARY: He has already made his - MR. F. ROWE: I wish we could hear from the hon. member for Exploits (Dr. Twom~y),who is himself a doctor 1 and the hon. member for St. John's South (Dr. Collins) - MR. NFARY: ~-ffi..

F • ROl!l'E: - statmP .nt. whP.,.., h .. ""i . ..l - -who, Sir, are not learned gentlemen in legal phrase but learned g~ntle~an in the scientific sense and they know what experimentation is all abo~t,and I feel if they speak sincerely from their heart that they have no other choice but to support this type of a petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Bay South. HR. NOLAN: Hear, hear! The hon. member for Conception ~r.· Speaker, I rise happily and unhappily in a way to support the petition signed by 332 members or residents of the Port Blanford area as submitted and tabled by my hon. friend for Terra Nova (}lr.

Lush). There is no way that anv thinking person could surely support this kind of raining ~ allegedly for benefit for this Province, from the skies on the people of this Province without asking some very very serious questions. How can you? It has nothing to do with whether you are PC, Liberal, NDP or anything else. It is a matter that we may very well-information not merely from members of the House of Assembly but from others as well in scientific stud i es that have been made public in various parts of North America that there is a very serious threat to human

May 23, 1978 Tape 33R8 DW - 2 MR. NOLAN: life . Are we to stand here in this House on our political haunches and say that if the real effects of this will not be noticed for three or four years down the line we are going to be out of office so what difference does it mean? It is a pretty MR. NEARY: MR. ~OLAN: callous situation. And the one industry pro~ably will be destroy£d because - Exactly.

Some very strong doubts have already been expressed whether tnis is going to be that much benefit, although we see that according to the minister's statement that the decision was reached in full co-operation and consultation between officials of my department-meaning the minister's - and also officials of tne two paper companies. AN RON . 1·1l':HBER: (Inaudible) MR. NOLAN: Now I am not one to stand to dismiss the pleas of the paper companies.! am aware that they employ people and God knows we need more employment in this Province. But how much is a job worth in terms of human life?

All the studies and the information that has been available to us indicates quite clearly that they are other methods,other alternatives that have to be looked at.

There should have been a great public discussion and may I say that somehow through the press of this Province,beyond doubt it is not a very pleasant broadcast or through the newspapers to make each day,but every time any area of this Province is to be sprayed the people should be warned that this - what do you call it? - Matacil is going to be dropped tomorrow morning. · What we are ~oin~ to need are some human born~ shelters to get out of the way of the spray that the hon. gentleman-~e is going to be known as the Forestry High before all of this over. Look at the figures on dust spraying work, Mr.

Speaker; Cape Breton, Nova Scotia 1977 no spray•, New Brunswick, where they did spray,l3 out of 15 counties sprayed. In Nova Scotia,no cost;New P.runs~~ck 1 $9 million cost. Egg mass counts in Nova Scotia., egg , mass counts in New Brunswick. Down 60 per cent cent in Nova Scotia where there was no spraying 1up 40 per cent

--~f May 23 , 1978 T ape 3388 DH - 3 Wt. NOLAN: where there was spraying in New B·runswick.'lhe State of Maine has cancelled it cOtllpletely, wiped :l,t out. Are they all mad ·and we are the only sensible ones now alive on the North American Continent? Do we have all the knowledge? Who is putting the muscle on the minister? Certainly not th.e citizens of this Province beltint on his door demandin11:. ''Sllrav me! sllrav me!" He will be Sllraved befo-re th1.s t1< all ove<r. The unfortunate part about all of this. Mr. Sl)eaker, is he will not be the only one to suffer.

And 1 say that every thinking person in this Province, and every class that is still in existence before the schools close should ~e a point of doing soi!IE! at least basic research and express their opinion, either through the media.,through tl;le members of the House of -ASsembly or what other forum is Ol)en to them. But thev shoul tt not sit back like poor dumb beasts and be :;prayed and that is exactly what is happening here. "The decision to release large quantities of a poison, be it an insecticide. herbidde or Whatever to protect man or a portion of his enviromnent is a political decision and the

aay 23, 1978 Tape 3389 EC - 1 !!R. NOLAN: public has the right to know the facts about the associated benefits and risks:' P. D. McTaggart Cowan, National Research Council of Canada, perhaps we should reject his opinions also. So I hope, Mr. Speaker, that we will pay attention to the plea.

Maybe it is not the largest petition ever presented in this House of Assembly - 332 - but it may very well be as we go down the road a year or two, it may very well be that historically researchers will say this was the petition that members of this House of Assembly, and in fact all the public, should have come to the aid of for if we do not do it no w it ma y very well be too late.

I notice that the areas according to the press release - unless one of my colleagues took it from me, and I suspect he did - I do not believe the minister is going to do us the great honour of dropping his Matacil on the Avalon Peninsula, is he? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no~ MR. NOLAN: No. He is going to go to Clarenville though - Gamba, Gander, Lewisporte, Milltown, Bishop's Falls, Springdale, Roddickton, Port Saunders, Pynn's Brook, St . George's, commencing on Monday, ~ ;ay 15, 1978. I can tell you, Mr . Speaker, that the minister has not heard the last about this.

And again, members on all sides are certainly going to have to address themselves to this problem, Mr. Speaker. We certainly support the petition of our hon. friend. MR. SPEAKER: Stephenville. HR. McNEIL: The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I stand in support of the petition so ably presented by my hon. colleague from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush).

May 23, 1 978 Tape 3389 EC - 2 MR. McNEIL: I can understand the concern of the people from Port Blandford about health and safety with the application of the spraying programme. And to give an example, in my own district where one of the sites are located, this weekend I checked to see if the site was being set up with regard to health and safety measures. I came across a safety manual for aerial application of pesticides, and in that manual it is stated that pesticides should be stored inside in a well ventilated storage area, away from direct sunrays.

And when I went on the site the barrels that contained the insecticide were stored on the ramp and in the heat of the sun you could hear the cracking and see the fumes coming away from the barrels. Here is the picture. If you need it I will put it on the table of the House. The barrels were badly damaged - leaks in the barrels, you could see the spray coming out over the sides of the barrels. And in the safety manual it is stated that the barrels should be checked regularly for leaks, and if there were any leaks that they be stopped.

Also on the site there was no warning, no signs warning the general public that the area contains insecticides dangerous to health. And the location of the site is near a residential area on the Harmon complex. And the manual also states that in the opening of these barrels and the mixing of the chemicals you should be aware of any drift. With any type of wind whatsoever it will go into the residential areas where the children are playin~. I also checked with the fire department in case of a fire, whether they could handle the fire if there was an outbreak.

They did not even know the quantity of insecticide stored in the area. The hospital did not know what way they would be able to treat it. They said that they

:1ay 2 3, 19 7 8 Tape 3339 :::c - 3 MR . clc~EIL : would probably just treat it as in any other way. And according to the manual, every different insecticide should be treated a little differently . I came back today and I called the Depart~en t of Forestry and asked them for a safet y ~anual so that I could send it out to the area to the people, and they could not provide me with one. 1 would ask the mi~ister chat if he is going to spray that he would notify the people of the hazards with the spraying programme .

I think t~e government made n gigantic mistake in their decision last year to close the Linerboard ~ill when they knew that we had a very seri ous budworm problem . The minister stated himself that the spraying programme is only a stopgap measure, and I think if they had chosen the other alternative of harvesting, it would give them enough leeway to keep our plant in operation - we probably could have found a buyer while the plant was operating, we could have kept peopl e e·mployed. Righ t now it is just one catastrophe after another with the major part of our population leaving the area completely.

And it is not bad enou2h that they are leaving! The ones who are staying they are going to

May 23, 1978 Tape 3390 Mr. McNeil: try to poison them. Mr. Speaker, I support the petition, and I do hope that the minister will support the petition and object to the spraying in the Port Blandford area. PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: MR. RIDEOUT: The han. the member for Baie Verte-White Bay. Mr. Speaker, I rise to add my support to this petition so ably presented by my colleague for Terra Nova(Mr. Lush) on behalf of, I believe, it is 300-and-some-odd residents of Port . Blandford. Mr.

Speaker, we have nad enough said in this no~~ thib afternoon for the government to seriously reconsider the stand that it is taking on this spraying programme in this Province this year. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

RIDEOUT: When it comes to a government's spraying programme cominn within six-tenths of a mile, I believe, of the commurity of Port Blandford-•·•e do not know how close it is coming to other communities across this Province, but we do know one specific instance where the people have made it their business to find out, coming within six-tenths of that particular community at its closeness point, two miles away from the community at its farthest point, and knowing as little as we do, Mr.

Speaker, about this spray Matacil that this Province is using certainly that is enough for us to stand up and take our senses from what we are doing in this Province with regards to spraying. Now,. Mr. Speaker, if there •·•as any hard concrete evidence that by using this spray Matacil and by embarking on this spray programme that we would be doing something legitimate to counteract the movement of the spruce budworm across this Province the~ we may have some sort of an argument. But we know that is not the case in New Brunswick.

They have had twenty-six years of spraying and they are running away worse than ever with the infestations from the spruce budworm. We know that the same thing has happened in the State of Maine, and I think we have seen some evidence of where it is happening in British Columbia and in the Province of Quebec also. Then we have another Maritime province who having looked at all of the alternatives decides that it will be of no use to that province to embark on such a spraying programme, yet this Province in all of its

May 23, 1978 Tape 3390 PK - 2 Mr. Rideout: glory is embarking on this spray programme this year. Mr. Speaker, it is absolutely ridiculous what we are proposing to do. Now I heard in a news story today, Mr. Speaker, that the Gander Air Traffic Controllers, for example, one of, I suppose, the most highly professional groups certainly in the country, in this Province, in any part of the country, are thinking, I do not know if it is reported correctly or not, but are thinking about not working while those spray aircrafts are spraying around this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, there has to be a reason for it.

And the obvious reason is that some of the side affects of this insecticide Matacil is dizziness, and people going unconscious and so on, - AN HON. MEMBER MR. RIDEOUT: Nervousness. - and nervousness. And those air traffic controllers, who are professional people supposed to be controlling the airways, the skyways across this Province1 do not want to have the added burden added to their burdensome task as it is, of controlling airways with pilots going around probably under the influence of this drug Matacil. Mr. Speaker, it is almost unbelievable. MR. NEARY: The aircraft coming in from overseas (iraudible) MR.

RIDEOUT: It is almost unbelievable, Mr. Speaker. I have seen documentation that has said there have been a mumber of airplane crashes, for example, in New Brunswick where they have used this spraying programme, and some of it can probably be attributed to the facts that I have alrP.ady mentioned,the dizziness and so on and the unconsciousness that this type of sprav of insecticide brings about. It is unbelievable that we would embark on that type of programme in this Province with the little bit of experimentation that went into it last Summer.

It is unbelievable that we would do it in view of the experimentation that has gone into this drug Matacil. Mr. Speaker, I ask the question,are we gone out of our minds,for goodness sake? I think it is time for the minister not to get his back up on this particular issue-

May 23, 1978 Tape 3390 PK - 3 AN HON. MEMBER: We want to protect the forests, too. MR. RIDEOUT: Of course, we want to protect the forest, but we also want to look at the alternatives, and we firmly believe there are a.lternatives.

And I think it is time for the minister not to get his back up and dig in his heels, but to have another look at this spray programme, to have another look at the implications of it for the people of this Province, and more especially have a look at it in areas like Port Blandford, and I am sure there are dozens of other areas around the Province where we are going to be spraying, practically, Mr. Speaker, on the doorsteps of the people. Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition and I hope that the minister will rise in his place and let us know. And I also say this, Mr.

Speaker, one of the most important things to ever happen in this Province, and we have not as yet had an opportunity to debate it in this House of Assembly, despite the fact that I believe the Premier gave us some indication months ago,or first when we opened, that there would be a special debate on the spray programme in this House. MR . NEARY: MR .. RIDEOUT: Now he is bellyaching about the decorum of the House. One of the most important things we could be discussing, certainly all members could add something to it, I thin 1' •·•e ought to have that opportunity but no, Mr.

Speaker, do it ~ith as little consultation as possibly so that there will be least fuss as possible, never mind the affect that it may have on the population of this Province. Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition and hope that the government will act on it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

May 23, 1978 Tape No. 3391 N}!- 1 MR. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): The han. member for Carbonear. MR. R. MOORES: Does anybody else want to speak on that petition1 This is a new petition. Are you going to say anything on this? SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: out a - MR. SPEAKER: presenting a new petition? MR. R. MOORES: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! The minister is going to put Order, please! Is the hon. member Yes, Mr. Speaker. What a coward! The hon. member for Carbonear. MR. NEARY: Hhat a co'llard! Spray the people! Sprf'ad the poison! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

One hon. member at a time has the right to address the House. The hon. member for Carbonear. MR~ NEARY: No wonder we reduced your salary to one dollar. You should be ashamed of yourself. MR. R. ~OORES: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise to present a petition - MR. SIMMONS: MR. R. MOORES: MR. SIMMONS: petition. I want to support - MR. SPEAKER: Oh\ You are on a new petition,are you? Yes,I am. Mr. Speaker, my friend is on a new Order, please! I had indicated that the hon. member was about to present a new petition and lvhen no one rose I recognized the hon. member. MR. R. MOORES: yield to my colleague. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. member for Carbonear. In all fairness, Mr. Speaker, I will This would be with leave of the House Another member had been recognized after - SOME RON. MEHBERS : Oh, oh!

May 23, 1978 Tape No. 3391 NM- 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think the han. member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) made a remark that the Chair cannot ignore. I would ask the hon. member if he would be kind enough to withdraw the remark. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I would be quite happy to if I said what the Speaker inferred what I said. I said it is scandalous on behalf of the hon. members opposite. It is as simple as that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I accept the han. member's

interpretation of that remark. It is my understanding that after the last han. member took his seat 1 the hon. member for Carbonear (Mr. R. Moores) rose to address the House. I enquired of him whether he was presenting a new petition,l_!_e indicated · he was, After a wait to see if others wishes to speak to the last petit1on 9 I recognized the hon. member. MR. NEARY: MR.. MURPRY : ~. ~TEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: environment. MR. SD1MONS: By leave, Mr. Speaker? No, not at all. Carry on. Oh1how cowardly! Oh, oh! The minister responsible for the The only good reason for the budworm spray, look.

The only good argument for it, the me~er for St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I understand leave has not been given so I would have to recognize the han. member for Carbonear. MR. NEARY: The minister responsible for garbage. They should be ashamed of themselves. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The han. member for Carbonear.

Hay 23, 1978 Tape l1o. 3391 ~"!1 - 3 MR. R. MOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise to present a petition on behalf of 125 parents in the Salmon Cove area of my district, relating, Mr. Speaker, and I will read the prayer of the petition. It is addressed to the hon.

House of Assembly in session. '~e, the undersigned parents, express our concern and our dismay as taxpayers, that government's policy with respect to education in this Province should result in denying the children of our school the services of a guidance counsellor in addition to sacrificing diversity and quality of the educational programme, and petition the government therefore to change its present policy." Mr.

Speaker, about the most irrelevant thing pertainin g to this petition is the number of people who have signed it. 125 does not necessarily reflect nor indicate the seriousness of this problem throughout the entire ~rovince. In the past couple of weeks various colleagues of mine, and on the other side of this Rouse, have rose to support similar petitions relating to a drastic decrease in the quality of education in this Province. Last week,for instance 1one of my han. colleagues talked about the loss of a physical recreation teacher in one of the schools in Lewisporte district. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the tragedy has occurred, lightning has struck - twice. These students in the school at Persalvic in Victoria '>ill lose their guidance counsellor. AN HON. MEMBER: High school?

~. May 23, 1978 Tape 3392 EC - 1 MR. R. MOORES: Yes, it is a high school. If my memory serves me correctly, Mr. Speaker, when I was in teacher training we were always tpld that one of the most vital modifications and modernizations in the educational system in this Province was the advent of the introduction of guidance counsellors. And the reason for that was because most of our students were dropping out of our schools.

And the reason for the increase and the consistency of the drop-out rate was because our students were not receiving the proper guidance and direction with regard to the programmes, the course instruction and what they should prepare themselves for in terms of finishing their secondary education. So this Province, this Department of Education, embarked upon a very modern, and I must say, a very necessary, very logical programme of introducing into the system guidance counsellors.

Now the negative result of the present policy of this government with regard to teacher cutbacks has been that the school boards,wherever they might be, are getting rid of their specialist teachers. And God forbid, Mr. Speaker, perhaps in some cases these are the very teachers that should not be removed, particularly in this instance of a guidance councellor, in a school, I might add, where the drop-out rate is reasonably high.

And if there is an instance of any instances - we just talked about the spray programme in this Province and the very, very vital issue that it is - well, this policy of teacher cutbacks is equally vital; in fact, in my opinion, perhaps long-term, more vital to this Province. The Minister of Education has on frequent occasions dodged this issue whenever he could.

!1ay 23, 1978 !!R. R. MOORES: about a month ago. Tape 3392 EC - 2 We had a meeting in Carbonear Six hundred teachers and parents came out to a public meeting to hear the minister defend his department's and his government's policy and he did not even show up. But more importantly, not only did he not show his face,but he did not even have the common courtesy to send somebody in his absence. Six hundred people~ That, in my opinion, is probably one of the largest public meetings held in Carbonear certainly within the last decade, and that indicates, Mr.

Speaker, the very, very deep, serious concern that parents, not only in my district, not only in Carbonear, but all over the Province, - the very serious concern indeed that they are showing with regard to this callous policy of teacher cutbacks.

Why, at a time in our history when we need a greater quality of education in this Province, when we need more specialist teachers to help" our children, to decrease the drop-out rate, to increase the quality, - why at this time in our history,when finally we are going over the top, when finally we see the light at the end of the tunnel, when finally we can do something to enhance the abilities, to enhance the skills and the training of our students, why now has this government taken an about turn, an almost disgraceful, shameful about turn and have, in effect, Mr.

Speaker, lambasted the very essence, the very philosophy of the basic goals and achievements of our education ~ystem, that of preparing a student fully for his life in this society, educating him, training him mentally and physically for the society that he will, in fact, Mr. Speaker, confront, fight with, struggle with to survive for the rest of his life? And this minister, the same minister, has stood up on many occasions in this House and has extolled his virtues as an educator in this Province,

:·lay n, 197 a Tape llo. 3393 Ail-1 has extolled the virtues ol his ~vernment and what they have done since coming to office in 1972 to promote and encourage quality education.

Now an about face, a shameful about lace tearing dow~ the very essence of our educational structure, leaving the students who are most vulnerable, tile real students in this ~rovince, students who need education more than those in the urban centers, t!''" rt~>re vuluerablc stuc;.cnts in :::lis Provi::c<. are now being subjected to a c.:J.llous policy that will do no good for this Province, no 300c for the students .1w..i no t;ood for the education<:! system. :·.R. SPEAKER: :·m.. NEARY: Thank you, 1-lr. Speaker. Hon. member for LaPoile.

I support the petition so ably presented by :ny non. colleague the member for Carbonear (:·:r. :Cioores) on behalf of nis constituents in the community of Salmon Cove, Sir, where the board has decided that they would do away with the guidance counsellor­ probably one of the most important positions in the school, the guidance counsellor. Now, Hr. Speaker, I hope we have better luck with getting the ~inister of Education up on his feet today than we had with the Hinister of Forestry and Agriculture and the Minister of Health.

On one or two occasions previously the ~inister of Education tried to defend this pLlicy of cutbacks by trying to persuade the House that ther:e would be r.o dras::ic affects on the quality of education in this Province. I do not know, l!r. Speaker, what yardstick the hon. gentleman is using to measure the quality of education in this Province. How can you, ~!r. Speaker, cut back in the elementary and high schools in this Province, how can you eliminate a guidance counsellor in the school in Salmon Cove without drastically affecting the quality of education? Could Your Honour answer that for me?

Could Your Honour tell me how you can cut the number of teachers in the schools and not affect the quality of education when our quality is already low, Sir? It has been proven, and the minister admit ted L""l this House, in the last

~1ay 23,1978 Tape "o· 3393 AH-2 HR. ~lEARY: two or three years since that hon. gentleman became :-!inister of Education that our quality is below tb.c sllandard of education being taught on the mainland.

So, ltr, Speaker, I will be interested in hearing t-lhat the hon. gentleman has to say, I believe over the weekend there was an ad in the paper by the two-man task force over at Hemorial that they are now going to hold public hearings, I believe, Sir, that every parent, that every organization, every member ..,f this House should go · down and appear before that task.force and recommend that they recoiDQend to the Dii.nis ter of Education a:-_.i to the ~overrunent of this Province ti1at a fullfledged, independent, fact finding enquiry be made into our whole educational system right from kindergarden right on up through university.

Mr.

Speaker, we have a golden opportunity in this Province as I see it at the present time because what we need in this Province at the moment are more specialist'\ and my hon. friends •...rho are academics, who are former university students - I never saw the inside of an university rqself but, Sir, I believe we need specialists and I believe the university should revamp its programme now to shutdown the school of education for,say,five years, shut it dotm and start training specialists, beef up your B.A. and start training specialists in math, specialists in English, specialists in language, specialists in history and so forth and so on all the way down the line and tnen give these people who get their B.A., give them one year teacher's training because that is all they need, Hr.

Speaker, One year, that is all tt.ey need. AN HON. HElfBE!\: That is what they are getting now. Well,that is not what they are getting now. No, Sir, t;1ey are not, ~y hon. friend knows the difference • They are getting a general spattering of everything; I am talking about specializing. Shut down the school of education for a five year period have teacher training and then start training specialists at t;1e university. But, Sir, that is again only something that I am sayL~g . off

.:, : r ~y 23,197 6 JJ93 AE-3 :~ •. ~lEA.H-1_: the cop of my i1ead, a scate:::ent I am :nahn;; off the top of my head . m1y mewber can get up and ~ake a su3gestion. But, Sir, it is not only a cutbacl:

~r I . ~lay 23, 1978 Tape No. 3394 NM - 1 ~!R. NEARY: in teachers that is affecting education in this Province, We have to take a look at the total education system to see if we are getting the best value for our educational dollar. We are spending one third of our budget on education. Are we headed in the right direction? Are our children my children, your children are our children being properly trained for the right things? Are we directing them in the right direction or are they not? We do not know, Sir. And as my han. friend indicated, we cannot take any chances.

The most valuable asset we have is our people and we do not know if we are doing right or wrong at this moment. And ail we have is the minister sets up a two man task force over at Memorial that has a vested interest, They are not going to recommend anything that is going to affect their own little empire or the university.

And that is why I suggest, Sir, that every man, woman,, every taxpayer, every parent, every member of this House, Federation of Mayors and Municipalities, unions, should go down to that task force at their public hearing~, and recommend to them that they recommend to the minister that a full-fledged,independent study be made of our whole educational system to see if we are getting the right value for our educational dollar and above all to see if we are headed in the right direction in our educational system in this Province. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for Terra Nova, followed by the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition so ably presented by my hon. friend on behalf of 125 people of Salmon Cove. And, Mr. Speaker, this petition comes from the kind of an area that is going to be drastically affected by teacher cutbackA, And the petition alludes to the fact that the teacher cutbacks are going to result in affecting the diversity of programmes.

~ay 23, 1978 Tape No. 3394 MR. LUSH: Hr. Speaker, this is the issue that I have been alluding to every time I have spoken to these petitions the reduction in programmes, thus affecting the quality and equality of educational opportunity right throughout this Province, particularly rural Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, there has been some indication by hon. members opposite to dismiss the idea that quality of education and equality of educational opportunity are not related. And, Mr.

Speaker, I want to again say that in my definition of education · the two are interwoven inseparably, interlinked; you cannot have one without the other. You cannot have quality without equality of educational opportunity. To look at it otherwise is to look at it in a very narrow, parochial view. Quality has to do with excellence, it has to do with the superiorness of a course or of a subject. And to indicate that quality and equality are not related is to defy and deny all the principles of learning that there were ever developed. Quality takes into effect the teaching and the learning process.

Some people would suggest that the learning process has only to do with teaching. And I would advance the argument to hon. members that the most important ingredient really is the learner. We can have an instructor who is A-1, and if the learner is not at all inclined to that particular course then that person is not going to receive a quality education. A person doing a particular course, a student, an adult, anybody else, they must have a certain aptitude towards that course.

They must feel inclined to do that course,otherwise there will be no quality education resulting on the learner's part despite how effective the teaching process has been.

·Nay 23, 1978 Tape No. 3394 Nl1 - 3 l1R. LUSH: So therefore there has got to be a wide range of courses to meet the individual needs of students which brings us into equality of educational opportunity and when courses are reduced there is no equality of educational opportunity and does not give the person concerned the opportunity to get a quality education. So, Mr. Speaker, in its broadest sense and in the ~1R. R. MOORES: Persalvic. NR. LUSH: No, but in accordance with all the principles of education, that quality and equality are inseparably interwoven and interlinked, and interdependent upon each other.

And, Mr. Speaker, ~~e have had tremendous discrepancies throughout this Province with respect to equality of educational opportunity. I have alluded to the fact that there are h;gh schools offering upwards to fifteen courses and there are other areas in rural Newfoundland where they are just offering a barebones curriculum. How can there be quality and equality when you compare the two? And I would put forward to hon. members that there cannot be quality and equality under this situation that we now have. There cannot be quality without equality. The two must go hand in hand. Hr.

Speaker, throughout rural Newfoundland, and I expect i~ the area where my hon. member has presented the petition

~lay 23, 1978 Tape 3395 EC - 1 HR. LUSH: from, that I expect there are many inequalities within that same area - areas where people have access to trade schools to do pre-vocational courses, and yet in other areas where people can just do the barebones requirement. Can any han. member say that there is equality and quality education in situations like that? Mr. Speaker, this is what teacher cutbacks are doing to rural Newfcundland in particular, causing schools to reduce their programmes thus affecting the quality and the equality, thus affecting the educational rig~ts of every citizen in this Province.

A backward step, Mr. Speaker, never a more backward step ever taken by any government in this Province. Mr. Speaker, I support this petition wholeheartedly in the hope that the minister when he speaks to this petition will indicate to us that the government intends to throw away, to rescind this very backward step, this very backward course they have embarked upon. NR. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) The hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. HR. F. ROWE: l!r. Speaker, I, without any qualification at all, get up and support the petition presented by my colleague, the member for Carbonear ( Mr. R.

Moores) on behalf of in excess of 100 people of the Salmon Cove area with respect to the laying off of the guidance councellor in that particular area. Sir, in doing so, I appeal to the minister once again, as I did several days ago, to reconsider these teacher layoffs until such time as the Task Force report has been recommended or delivered to

Hay 23, 1978 Tape 3395 EC - 2 HR. F. ROlfE: government and certain recommendations made, and presumably the government will take certain actions on it. Sir, it is putting the cart before the horse,to say the least, when you lay off teachers and then you set up a Task Force in order to study the reasons for the layoff and if there are any ways to overcome it and whether it would have any effect on the quality of education. Sir, if there is any area of education that is of vital importance to the student today, it is the guidance counsellor.

It seems to me, Sir, that each time a petition is brought forth with respect to a teacher layoff, it seems to hit the specialist teacher. This seems to be the trend that is happening here.

I was astounded last week, Sir, when the minister said something to the effect - and I am not quoting him accurately, but this is what, in fact, it meant - that the laying off of a phys.-ed. teacher would not affect the quality of education in that particular system, and he gave some reasons for it, but I was astounded and entirely disagreed with him Now, Sir, we are in a situation where we are told a guidance counsellor is going to be laid off. Now, Sir, what is the situation in this Province today?

We have maximum unemployment - never higher in our history~ We have a number of Schools of Trade and Technology where students cannot find places, and if they do find places in some of these courses, they find themselves in the position that· they cannot get a job after they graduate from some of these vocational schools. And the same thing holds true, of course, for the College of Trades and Technology. And, Sir, even at the university level we are churning out graduates who cannot find jobs. It is not just teachers, by the way, Sir. I have had a great number of teachers coming in with :f I

~·i s y 2 3 , 1 9 7 8 Tape 3395 EC - 3 !!R. F. ROIVE: tvo deg~ees asking me to look for a job for them. thev could not: find " inh. Tllif' if' ~h,. ve r y point under discussion. nut I hav e had hundreds of ocher student:s cooing in with other deg r ees who cannot: find jobs. So the point that I am caking, Sir, is this, that if ever a st udent needed proper gu idan ce, it is in our school sys tem today, it is at this very poin t in time - A~l l!O~I . ::t::JB SR: !lear, hear! HR . F.

ROHE : - probably the most important time in our histo r y, rhere students who are coming out of high school cannot find employment; students are going into voca tional schools and find themselves being placed in the wrong courses in terms of finding employment afterwards; we find s tu dents going to the un iversity, graduati n g, fi n ding themselves in debt and not

May 23, 1978 Tape 3396 DW - 1 }ffi.. F. ROWE: being able to find jobs afterwards.The same thing is true for the College of Trades and Tednology and I think to a lesser extent the Fisheries College. And by the way, Sir, talking about the Fisheries College 1 the ~inister of Fisheries time and time again talks about the bright future of the fisheries in this Province and how more of our young Newfoundlanders have to get into the fisheries and make a contribution towards our society. Again this requires a revolutionary change in our instruction and in our curriculum. "MR. NEARY: A guidance counsellor. MR. F.

ROWE: And where else would a guidance counsellor be more effective, Sir, in getting off the ground certain extra-curricular activities and curricular activities respecting the fisheries. So, Sir, my sole point here is this- and by the way, Sir, I might add that for a year or two I have been forecasting the lay-off of these taachers and the ¥inister of Education has been denying that it would ever happen. This year we will see the crunch.

The sole point I am making, Sir, he~e is this:is that this is probably the most crucial time in our history since Confederation with respect for th• need for guidance counsellors in our schools and other special education teachers,and I would recommend and appeal and kneel down to the minister,! would even go further, Sir, I would kiss his feet - MR. NEARY: He is not going to run again. MR. F. ROWE: - if the hon. minister would reconsider the idea,hold off the lay off of these teachers until such time as the Task Force report has had time to submit its report. !lR. s.

NEARY: The minister is not going to run again. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by my friend ancl colle!lgue for Carbonear _

l!ay 23, 1978 Tape 3396 MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, we have here again today a petition this time signed by more than 100 people protesting against the cut backs in ~ducation as proposed by the present minister and of course the administration that he is a part of. The petition I understand comes from Salmon Cove, Mr. Speaker, but perhaps it is worth noting that the school that these students attend, Persalvic - I do not know if the petition is from Salmon Cove or from Persalvic I am not quite sure - MR. NEARY: It is from Salmon Cove. nl-1 - 2 MR. CALLAN: It is from Salmon Cove.

Well, anyway, we know that the 'Per' stands for Perry's Cove, and we know that the 'sal' stands for Salmon Cove, and the 'vic' stands for Victoria. So this Persalvic High School caters to students from three communities: · Perry's Cove, Salmon Cove, and ''ictoria. We have here today a petition from one of these three communities, Salmon Cove. I daresay, Mr.

Speaker, that obviously the feeling is no less different in the other two communities and, of course, for that matter no less different that in the hundreds of communities around this Province because we have had on previous days and in previous weeks many, many other petitions similar to the one presented here today. Last week we had one talking about the loss of a Phys-Ed instructor; today, the loss of a guidance counsellor. When I spoke last week in support of the petition regarding the loss of a Phys-Ed instructor, Mr.

Speaker, I pointed out that obviously that type of person is not as necessary as, for example, a mathematics teacher, an English language teacher, a history or a geography teacher. That sort of teacher teaches the academic subjects which we have had traditionally down through the years in our schools. It is only in recent times that we have had these extras. But of course, Hr. Speaker, to call them extras, I think,

c~ay 23, 1973 '!'ape 3391i '1T-3 is a mistake. Obviousl y , they were considered to be a vital and a necessary part of our school system, especially the sort <';· ?

May 23, 1978 Tape 3397 PK - 1 Mr. Callan: of school systems that we have had in the last ten or fifteen years, the regional and central high schools such as the one that services this region Perry's Cove, Salmon Cove and Victoria. Mr. Speaker, a guidance counsellor, I think, is no less a luxury in a high school than the regular classroom teacher, a person who teaches the acadamic suhiects. Mr.

Speaker, in supporting other petitions I have drawn notice to the fact that in our high schools, and in all of our schools in this Province we have two kinds of drop~outs: there is the out and out drop-out and then there is the psychic drop-out. There is the out and out drop-out who decides after several months and for several reasons perhaps, perhaps home conditions, lack of money in the home, and so on, causing that boy or girl to drop-out, take their books and go home, drop-out to go to work to help the family budget and so on, and, of course, they drop-out for other reasons. But, Mr.

Speaker, there is the other sort of drop-out as well, the psychic drop-out, the person who has dropped out for all intents and purposes; he is there or she is there in body, but for all intents and purposes they have dropped out. They are occupying a seat, but they are not interested in what is being said at the front of the classroom, they are not interested in what is being written on the chalkboard, they have dropped out. They are no longer with it. And, Mr.

Speaker, I know from experience in high schools in various parts of this Province that a guidance counsellor quite often is the person who gets that person, who calls that person aside, has a chat in the office and has a good talking to that person. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, a lecture, if you want to call it that, or perhaps a little bit of guidance, a little bit of counselling, that perhaps the student lacks. at home for various reasons.

And we hear much today of youngsters being neglected by their parents, the mother and the father are gone, and they are left all alone and this is why we have some of the drug problem we have and what have you.

May 23, 1978 Tape 3397 PK - 2 Mr. Callan: Mr. Speaker, I sincerely believe that the loss of a guidance counsellor to any school system in this Province is a great loss indeed, perhaps greater, perhaps greater than the loss, say,of a history teacher, and I have nothing against history teachers, but ouite often many of the things that that history teacher is talking aboui:-Achilles' heel, and how Achilles got struck in the heel.

I do not know if it makes very much differences for a person who is being prepared to go out into life whether or not they learn about·,Achilles and how he got struck in the heel or where they got struck somewhere else for that matter. So, Mr. Speaker, I sincerely support the prayer of this petition. And if I were allowed to do it, Mr. Speaker, I would almsot support both petitions, the previous one and this one. I am not allowed to do that. If ,I were I would say let us forget this $3.5 million for the spraying programme;let us put it into education where it would get the most benefit. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I just want to say a few words to affirm the fact that I too am cognizant of the need for guidance counsellors. I am not so sure that I can put a documentation on it and say it is t~e most important. I believe every petition we get about different catergories of teachers, everybody says this is the most important thing, and perhaps we can come to the conclusion that everything is important in education. Perhaps that is the conclusion that we would have to come to. I agree there is need for guidance.

I attended a conference a few years ago and one of the things at that meeting- and I think the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) was there­ where a fellow from Montreal, a fellow from _greater Montreal wh~re he talked about the teacher, the teacher being the best guidance counsellor, and, of course, that would presuppose that the teacher would have some facility in guidance. So I do certainly want to see schools have

May 23, 1978 Tape 3397 Mr. House: a measure of guidance and a good measure of guidance to help the students in the problems that they have. I want to point out to the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) that the way teachers are trained now is the fact that they are all specialists pretty well in an area. They all PK - 3

:1ay 23, 1978 Tape No. 3398 NM- 1 MR. HOUSE: major in an arts and they take one year of teacher training, and that is something we have had going on for a number of years. I think the task force will be addressing the problems of all specialties and I want to point out once again that we have not cut back in specialities. It is just on the regular teachers in some boards. That is all we have cut back on. And one of the reasons I supported this petition today, is the fact that there has been no cut back in the board referred to today.

There has been no loss of teachers by that board and it just goes to show I guess th~t the board has decided that thev will do somethin2 different with the teachers they have, rather than have them in guidance. I went and checked on that before I rose to speak. There is no loss to that board this year. So the board has decided apparently to use fuat particular unit in another situation. Mr. Speaker, that is all I have to say on it and I am sure the task force will be addressing that problem. NOTICES OF MOTION: HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to move the House into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions in relation to the guaranteeing of certain loans under the Local Authority Guarantee Act. I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Elections, Controverted Elections and Elections Financin~~; For ~!embers Of The House Of Assembly." SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! ANSWERS TO OUEST IO~ S FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: HR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order. Mr.

Speaker, the hon. l1inister of Health, Sir, has had almost eighty questions put to him so far this

, }!ay 23, 1978 Tape No. 3398 NH - 2 NR. NEARY: year and the hen. gentleman has answered about fifteen or sevecteen,I think,out of the total number. Could the hen. gentleman indicate when we are going to have the answers to the written questions that ~rere put on the Order Paper to the bon . gentleman back in ~~rch of this year? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, to that question, as I recall it, there are just about 100 questions in the name of the hen. member asked of me as }fi.nister of Health.

To my knowledge about half the questions, possibly more than half, have been answered. I stand to be corrected on that but certainly there is more than ten or fifteen. I answered ten or fifteen at one particular time. The questions which have not been answered, information is being put together and as soon as I get it fron the officials I will certainly answer all the questions before the House closes • ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I will yield to my colleague, I will take my turn, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. getleman has yielded. The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans.

MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier and I would appreciate just a short

preamble, Sir, that as the Premier knows and the word around is that we are moving towards the closing down of this House, the government wants to get the House closed and get away from exposing the Province's business, and the

preamble, Sir, is simply that if indeed this House does close within the next month or month and a half, the possibility is that when the next session opens the economy of the town of Buchans will have completely collapsed with the pending shutdown of the mines. And I want to ask the Premier, in view of this and he knows this to be a fact, just what steps the government have taken or is about to take that ~vill help offset the social and economic effects

~1ay 23, 1978 Tape No. 3398 MR. FLIGHT: that the pending mine shutdown indicates that will take place in Buchans after the closing of the mines1 Wha~ steps have the government taken to alleviate any adverse effects that will come 1vith the shutting down of the Buchans mines? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. NM- 3 PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, first of all regarding the closing down of the House, I would expect and I would be very surprised if it closes down before sometime in July and I think we will probably be open again in the Fall. SOUE RON. MEHBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER }'IOORES : session in the Fall.

I think we will be open for a good And that is the wav it should be. After all, if members are so enthusiastic as they seem to be, by taking two hours on I think ~o petitions again today - }!R. NEARY: Important petitions. PRE!ITER MOORES : - when thev could be discussed in the Budget Debate equally as well and wasting the House's time. But if they want to waste the House's time, Sir, that is fine with us. I mean it is unfortunate. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A point of order. A point of order has come up. The hen. gentleman, Sir, again has questioned the motives of the Opposition, Sir.

This goes on repeatedly. We hear this from the Premier, Sir, day in and day out and the bon. gentleman is allowed to get away with it. I think it is time to call it to a halt, Sir, and I refer Your Honour to Beauchesne,

section 154 (3), "The imputation of bad motives, or matives different from those acknowledged, misrepresenting the language of another, or accusing him, in his turn, of misrepresentation, charging him with falsehood or deceit,

Hay 23, 1978 Tape 3399 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: or contemptuous or insulting language of any kind, all these are unparliamentary. And the imputation of a false or unavowed motive, Sir, is unparliamentary. And I ask Your Honour, for the sake of trying to preserve the decorum and the dignity of the House, Sir, to ask the Premier to withdraw his remarks about the Opposition wasting the time of the House - ~N HON. MEM3ER: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: -withdraw his remarks, Sir, and apologize, or Your Honour name the han. the Premier. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PRENIER HOO::',:CS: Sir, before I am named I would like to speak to that point of order. First of all, Sir, after hearing the han. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) talk so much about education today, I am glad to see him refer at last to a textbook as opposed to his own particular

interpretation of the rules. However, Sir, when he said that there was a motive involved when I accused the Opposition, this, of course, is absolutely not correct. It is not a motive, Sir, it is just their behaviour which speaks for itself. The fact is, Sir, that they know as well as we know that they could indeed speak in the Budget debate, in the Throne Speech debate, With all the generalities that have to go with petitions, ~ey have spoken on the same theme for petitions for quite some time. But having said that, Sir, I would suggest that it is not a point of order. to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. HR.

SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: ~!R. SPEAKER: Conception Bay South. I already have one point of order. Speaking to that point of order, ~fr. Speaker. On the same one? The hon. the member for

Hay 23, 1978 Tape 3399 EC - 2 MR. NOLAN: I rise merely, l!r. Speaker, to suggest that not only is it suggesting something less than honourable intentions on behalf of members of the Opposition,but the fact is that petitions form a very basic and important part of this House. Hear, hear! AN HON. MEMBER: ~!R. NOLAN: I mean, are we to say that the 332 people of Port Blandford are wasting the time of the House today?

They did not write the han. the member and say I want you to mention this business about the spraying for the spruce budworm in the Budget Speech or any other speech, they sent it in the form of a petition, did they not? Are we going to question their rights too? Because that is what we are doing, Mr. Speaker. HR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice. !1R. HICKMAN: To that point of order.

We seem to be straying somewhat from it, because I do point out that this is, I am told, the only Legislature in the free world where petitions are presented in the manner in which they are submitted to this Legislature. That is why there is a very strict rule applying to petitions,' and that is why petitions cannot be debated. But any han. gentleman who has been listening today, if he or she feels that this has not been a debate on petitions just does not understand what the word 'debate' means. And that is, Mr. Speaker, as Your Honour will realize, totally contrary to the rules.

With respect to the frivolous, vexatious point of order raised by the han. gentleman from LaPoile (Hr. Neary), at the very most,if it is a point of order, it would fall into the category of a minor difference of opinion, and very minor at that. AN RON. :1E~IBER: l·!r. Speaker.

l! a y 2 3, 1 9 78 Tape 3399 EC - 3 I·IR. SPEAKER; I think I should_ooint out that I have heard two han. members on both sides on this point of order and I think I will call a halt there. I would point out as well that han. members' Question Period is limited to thirty minutes,and I am usually aware of that and endeavour to protect that. I think I have heard as much argument as will help to elucidate the points in dispute. The han. the Premier's statement, number one~that these matters co~ld be debated in a Budget debate obviously is not a statement which would bring order into operation.

Exception was taken to his allegation that hon. members to my right were wasting the time of the House. I do not think that that would be an imputation of motive. Maybe his opinion is an opinion on which other people would differ and might differ very strongly, but I do not think it is an imputation of motive or of bad faith or of that serious a nature. It would, I think, be obviously a difference of opinion, but not a matter whereby hen. members' motives have been imputed. PREHIE R l!OORES : If I mav continue.

Sir. and come to the question itself regarding what is planned to be done for the Buchans area, I think it would be very wrong for me to say that the solution is easy. It certainly is not; it is far 'from being an easy solution. It is unlike the St. Lawrence situation where St. Lawrence happens to be located in an excellent harbour where they have an alternate choice of real employment, resource employment through the fishery. In the case of Buchans,I would suggest that the question has to be directed to several ministers, and I am not trying to get off the hook here, because the thing is that, as I say.

T ' May 23, 1978 Tape 3400 PK - 1 Premier Moores: there is very 1 ittle that l'le see can I:Je done in a positive way. In the area of tourism we can do all that is possible by road connections into the Buchans area, by promoting the area as such, but then again ~lith the exception of fishing and hunting I would suggest that the trip to Buchans just as a tourist attraction as opposed to the coastline and the other areas where with the same distance covered it would be so much easier to do for people coming into the Province, I do not suggest that that is going to be as meaningful as we would like it to be.

Secondly, the Minister of Mines and Energy could speak on what we are trying to do or what the companies are trying to do to discover more ore because after all, Sir, when the ore runs out in any mining town the result is pretty well the sam~ in that it causes great dislocation and great discomfort, and it is something that we are totally aware of.

In the area of transportation and communication there are the two alternatives, of course; the top priority, and I think the most meaningful one for the "Buchans area is the completion of the Burgee Road and the Southwest Brook Road through Burgee back to the Trans-Canada. It will give the passing traffic trade, for what that is worth, it will give the people access to the West Coast if the development is there, whether it be linerboard or what have you, and equally it will give access, of course, to the forestry and all that goes with that.

But once again, I think, the han. member would be the first to admit that people who are used to all of their lives to working in the mines are not going to adapt easily into becoming lumberjacks or foresters. Rural Development can certainly pay a role in a minor way whether it be handicrafts or small industry ~r this sort of thino to see what can be done. Industrial Development I would suggest is restricted to the mine itself or the by-products from that, whether it be the barite tailings or what have you.

But all in all, Sir, we are conscious of situation and all these government departments are doing everything possible . As I say it is not an optimistic picture but we are doing all we can. r1R. FLIGHT: A supplementary.

May 23, 1978 Tape 3400 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: I would refer the Premier's attention to a letter that he wrote to the Buchans Lions Club on December 13, 1977, and I will just read the part that is germane to this particular question: "It was the concern for Buchans", the Premier, "It was the concern for Buchans that influenced the decision to advance the date of the development of the Hinds Lake project." Now that passage, Sir, is contained in a letter to the Buchans Lions Club who had written the Premier with their concerns about ~that would happen after the mines' shutdown in Buchans.

And that line bears reading again, Sir, "It was the concern for Buchans that influenced the decision to advance the date of the development of the Hinds Lake project." Now I want to ask the Premier, if the Premier would indicate to the House what affect the advancement of the development of the Hinds Lake project is having on Buchans to date or in what ~~ay does he see the Hinds Lake development affect the Buchans situation? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Well first of all, Mr.

Speaker, the advanced date has not had much of an affect on anywhere as yet _for the simple reason that the project,except for a few of the road projects around the Howley area, there is nothing else that has been done except for the orderina of ~achinery and so on. And when I say that the date was advanced bearing in mind the Buchans situation, certainly what I meant was that whilst it was maybe a year's difference between the project it would obviously - we would prefer to have the people for Buchans when they get off one job hopefully be able to move to another.

But in my naivete, Sir, and I say that in all sincerity, I did not realize the difficulty between the two unions involved. And it is a very real difficulty here whether people like it or not. The Building Trade Union~who would be the people who would have th~ contract to build the site. in the mai.n, and the Steelworkers. I guess it is in Buchans, 1·•hilst the" are in compatible terms I suggest that the President of the Labourers' Union, for instance, wants to get the people who are on his unemployed

llay 23, 19 78 Tape 3400 l'K- 3 PRE!-!IER !!OORES: rolls employed before he takes on the Steeli."'rkers and their union. Now this is not a problem that we relish. It is not something that we like to see. But I can understand both unions - well one union point of view of the met hod in which unions operate. But I can also understand che very social, the very real social need chat there is from the people who are eligible for employment in Buchans as well. :f'R. :;EA;o;y: Let government or :-lewfounrlla: ul l'ydro - PRD!1l:R YO ORES : Pardon?

MR. :lE.A'R.Y: - carry out the project and then you ~~ill not gee involved in that. Pf!.E-IIER MOORES: !'hi ch union do you suggest I"'! j oin? ~m . ~lEARY: t<ell. PRF.HIER ~!OORES: But I mean, Hr . Speaker , the hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) is suggesting Ghat the government start union busting and union breaking and contract breaking with unions - MR. :-ffiARY : XR . SPEAKFR: '!R . NURl' : On a point of order , ~r. Speaker . A point of order.

The hon. gentleman is mis=epresenting what I said, Sir, and not only that but is misleading the P.ouse a~ain in typical fashion that we have seen from the hon. gentleman , Sir, and it is lowering the dignity and the decorum of the Rouse - AN RON • ~IE'fB ER : ~!o, no! MR.~: - that I did not advocate union b ustin~. Sir. What I su~ested to the hon. the Premier was that the government,

.. ~y 2 ~, 1973 Tc.pt: ~· ,o. 3401 ~ie·. r..:oundland !iydro c.:;rry out this prcj<:ct a.-:.d t:1e:1. t:,ey woulu aot get involved in tne problem that ti1e iwn. ger,tle:man was raising. PREHIER iiOORES: Are you saying we snould not use unions. No, :1r. Speaker, I 'am not saying that at all. PREl-liER _dOOP.ES_: \Jell '~hich one? :-JR. NEARY: oihere the government encounters ti1e problem is wilen they contract, when they put the work out on contract; that is t·men t•ley run into the problem with ti1e unions. ciR. SPEAUR: Order, please!

The tuatter is not a point of order on vhicu the Chair can !Llal:e 3.ny decision. PREiiiER ~ iOORES: :1r. Speaker, irrespective of which organization does it,whetiler it is pr:!.vate contractors or whether it is Newfoundland Hydro or whether it is ~he Departnent of Social ServiN•s I 1-;oul d s trangl7 rccomrr~end that \t~1ici1ever broup it is is ;;;oi l ~ to ~ ..:...~.-~ to tl..:v = a. union contract il.s long a:> 11e are going to recogr:.ize tile unions in this Province.

And wilen we have union contracts for construction pi"Ojects such as this~>~he!:hei" it be private enterprise or "hether" it be ~overn:nent,naturally it has to be <lone with the unior:. that is aon.J.slly responsible for tilat. ~,_;t, Sir, :;ettinr; back to tl1e situatio"il of the advanceJ state of Hincis Lake,I have always said and I still mean that if it is huru.anly possible throu:;h union agre2ments and so on and access can be arran~ed for the people of Buchans to have a priority in that proj '-'Ct lt is this zoverru:~er.t 1 S position t:~ac if it is possible that will be the case. HR.

FLIGHT: A supplementary, MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. i'lR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I concur with the Premier when he indicates that any future that Buchans might have without a mine will be based on transportation through roads. PREMIER MOORES: I did not say that at all. NR. FLIGHT: Well,I said it and I am sorry. p: ' .

i'lay 23,197 8 Tape ~o. 3401 AH-2 MR. FLIGHT: It is a fact - SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! }ffi, FLIGHT: I do not want to get into an argument here, Sir, but I will just say in a

preamble to tae question that it is a fact that any future that Buchans will have without a mine will have to be based on transportation, Buchans will not have a future as a dead end as it is right now. The Premier just indicated that he agreed that the Burgeo-Buchans road AN HON. ME.HBER: l1R. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) That is what I am saying. So, Sir, I have two questions for the Premier;One, is his administration going to build the Buchans-Howley road? Is the present administration going to build the Euchans-lloH l ey road? Also would ~he minister care to put a date on the completion of the Buchans-Burgeo road?

Completion to a level where it will enable that :toad to have some economic benefit to the town of Buchans. Two questions, Sir! MR .SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER l1DORES: Mr. Speaker, I wish I knew the answer. As the hon. member knows that DREE road from Burgeo up to connect with Southwest Brook, I think there are about six or ei2ht miles left on th~t Pn~ nf it, And then you have the Red Indian Lake road to hook up from that ana the length of time it is going to take to do that I do not know.

I would hope that it would be about a two year project but that depends on the agreements we get and it depends on how fast ~he work can be done, But certainly it has a priority ,there is no question about t:1at 1 by both governments, I do not think there is any question about that. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. PREHIER HOORES: I would like to finish, Mr. Speaker, if I could? The Howley road 1 which is the one I think of the most immediate concern to the bon. member, the Howley road - first of all,the other road has the priority as a secondary frans-Canada Highway because that is really what we are talking here.

TI1e Howley road will be hooked up through the

Hay 23,1978 Tape No. 3401 AH-3 PR.El.1IER HOORES: va~ious dam sites and the ~oads that will be done for that pu~pose. But, Si~, to say that it will be an all-weather road, to say that it will be a road that can be depended on as a highway, I think a.t this point in time it would be w~ong because, Su, there is only so much we can do at a time and whilst the~e may be access there certainly will not be the all-weather road that we both would like to do. HR. FLIGHT: One fu~the~ supplem~tary, Mr. Soeaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementa~y, the o~iginal questioner. HR.

FLIGHI': Did I understand the Premier to indicate that the access roads to the const~uction sites will be built in such a way that would give the people of Buchans access to those construction sites regardless whether or not it will be all weather road or not? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. P~emier. PREMIER t-!OORES: Mr. Speaker, we are having some debate on our own side on this particular subject.

Ce~tainly as far as I am concerned I would like to see as the dams are going to be hooked up to Buchans, one dam is,as the other dams are going to be hooked up to the main dam and into ~owley and for the roads in between whether it is a forest access road or whatever we want to call it I would like to see it hooked up, yes. HR. NEARY: A supplonentary, l!r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this gove~nment's answer to the shut-down of industry seems to be appointing committees. We saw a committee appointed in the case of Buchans, St.

Lawrence, Come by Chance, Stephenville and Goose Bay. Would the hon. the Premie~ indicate if these committees have ever met that the hon. gentleman appointed? If they did meet, have they made fo~al reports to the government and if they have made reports will the ~ero~ts be tabled in this bon. House? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Premie~. PRE.'11ER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, first of all Come by Chance was shut-down 7 '

~lay 23. 197t! Tape ;~ o. 3401 JH - 4 PREMILR ~!OGRES: because it went bankrupt on the international financial market and nothing to do with this government whatsoever. That is number one. Secondly,

Hay 23, 1978 Tape 3402 EC - l PREHIER MOORES: the Labrador Linerboard mill hopefully will be started up shortly under proper management and under proper econ ·omic circumstances. The Goose Bay one he is talking about closing down, I am not sure what he is talking about, Sir, as such. HR. NEARY: PP.EHIER MOORES: linerboard . Logging operations. Logging operations which is St. Lawrence shut down, Sir, because Alcan were allowed by the federal government, and I suppose, ourselves, to shut it down because they could operate ~ore efficiently elsewhere. MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER: PREMIER MOORES: 'to7ell, what about the committee? Order, please! The fact is, Sir, that Buchans shut down because it ran out of ore. Now maybe the hon. member if he gets elected can promise that there is going to be more ore found in the ground . Maybe he has that sort of a mine, but that, Sir, is absolute baloney. MR. NEARY: What about the committee? What about the conmittee reports? PREHI ER MOORES: The fact is, Sir, that these industries shut down because of economic circumstance.

In fact, Sir, there have been hundreds of industries, small industries started in this Province that have started on economic reality. HR. NEARY: What about the people on this committee? PREMIER MOORES: The (Inaudible) today, Sir, is starting because it is based on a solid economic base which will give continuing prosperity in this Province.

:fa y 23, 1978 Tape 3402 EC - 2 PRE!!IER ~!OORE S: And when the han. member, Sir, starts talking about what has been shut down in the industrial sense, it was his regime before that should have never started them. SOME RON. ME!!BERS: HR. :mARY: HR. SPEAKZR: Hear, hear! A supplementary question. A supplementary. Order, please! I would point out to han. gentlemen on both sides that in Question Period han. members should avoid debate. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I still did not get the answer to my question about the committees.

I do not know whether the Premier in trying to make a little politics, Brownie points, just forgot the question that I put to the hon. gentleman, but the question had to do with setting up of committees to study these situations, the social and economic impact. ~nd what I wanted to know was if these committees ever met, if they have ever made a formal report to the government, and if so, would these reports be tabled in the House? That was the question. I do not know if I am going to get the answer or not. And if the Premier will give me an answer, I have one other supplementary then, Sir, a short one . HR.

SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier. PRE~!IER HOORES: First of all, Mr. Speaker, 1 would like to know a list of the committees the han. member is talking about - 7:!R. NEARY: Buchans, St. Lawrence, Come By Chance, Stephenville, Goose Bay and Linerboard. PRE!HER HOORES: Sir, the Linerboard Divestiture Committee, which has taken all these into consideration, will certainly be tabled in this House, and I would suggest

~ray 23, 1978 Tape 34 02 EC - 3 PREUIER MOORES: and hope that when it is tabled there will also be tabled the ongoing prosperity of that particular mill. As far as Goose Bay, Sir, and that ties in with it, that is the wood study report which, I think, is more valuable to the committee that is trying to sell the mill than it is for somebody in this House to abuse the report for their own whatever reason. As far as Come By Chance, Sir, those negotiations are going on with the British now. As a matter of fact, tre Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs is there today talking to them. Equally, Sir, the St.

Lawrence situation, there never was a government committee set up, as such. HR. NEARY: Yes, there was. PREMIER MOORES: But what has happened is that we ::ave reached a situation where all levels of government and the citizens' committee themselves are working ver y satisfactorily towards a solution, And, Sir, the Buchans Task Force is, as I said, the problem, and the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) is welcome to come to any or all of these departments I mentioned and find out as much about it as we kno w ourselves. MR. NEARY : !1R. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, Mr.Speaker.

A final supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY : In connection with the Buchans close down, Sir - and I think I have some experience in this - the most tragic consequences will be the devaluation in real estate, the lowering of the value of real estate in the community of Buchans. That will be the most tragic

May 23, 1978 Tape 3402 EC - 4 MR. NEARY: consequences of the shut down. People will lose their life's investment. Would the Premier indicate to the House what steps his government will take to make sure that when the Buchans mine closes next year that the bottom will not fall out of the real estate market in the community of Buchans? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PRElUER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I know the experience the han. member had when he was dealing with these sorts of things. I think he w·as in the N.D. P. in those days if I remember correctly. I am not sure of that, but I think that was the fact.

Some very interesting quotes, Sir, at that time, as far as the han. member is concerned, which I am sure he has passed on to the people who were concerned. l!R. HEARY: Yes, like no straight backs - work for a bottle of Coke, all this sort of thing. PREMIER MOORES: Well, Sir, I suggest that is not a bad idea HR. l!EARY: No, that is right. PREMIER !!CORES: Sir, regarding the selling of a house, which is a serious question in Buchans.

First of all, it seems most ironic that when the company is passing over the homes to the people who lived in them, it is just at a time when they are going to find it very, very difficult to either sell them or pay for them or what have you. It is something that is of concern to us. We have been in touch with the Price Company as opposed to the ksarco people in this regard, because we have found that they probably would be a bit more reasonable, and whilst we are not in the position to make any announcement on it, it certainly is something that concerns us as well. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville.

l:iay 23. 1978 l-!R. 1-icNEIL: to the Premier. Tape 3402 EC - 5 Mr. Speaker, my question is One of the responsibilities of the Divestiture Committee, as stated by the Premier, was to brief the joint councils and the other elected officials representing the Bay St. George region on the efforts to date being made by the Divestiture

May 23, 1978 Tape 3403 PK - 1 Mr. McNeil: Committee and the sales group,Woods Gordon,to dispose of the linerboard assets. Since the last meeting of the Divestiture Committee was January 24,could the Premier tell the HousP. when the Divestiture Committee will be holding its next meetin~ and when will the people of Bay St. George's be brought up to date on the efforts of the sales groups,Woods Gordon,to dispose of the assets? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I do not think that is a correct statement. am nqt sure, but I would not, I would be amazed if it was . MR. MCNEIL: (Inaudi b 1

e) t.lle other aay. PREMIER MOORES: The fact is, well the han. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) seems to be correct, says it is a correct statement as well. on well. know, Sir, negotiations with various companies are going do not think negotiating in public , although it may be appealing politically, I do not think, Sir, it makes very much sense economically, and we are trying to get this mill back on a realistic basis. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Terra Nova, followed by the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, want to ask the Minister of Labour and Manpower a couple of questions about the labour situation in the Province and specifically about the strike at Labrador City. It was rumored over the weekend that the workers at Labrador City were ready to come to an agreement, that there was some interference by workers from Northeastern Quebec, from Seven Islands and Shefferville. I wonder if the minister could comment on that situation and what the existing situation is now? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: Precisely and briefly it is a very complicated and complex situation.

Obviously you can draw certain conclusions from what has happened ove