Manitoba Hansard — 25 February 1976 (Sitting 14, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-14

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXIII No. 14 2:30p.m., Wednesday, February 25th, 1976. Third Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans-Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

THE LEGISlATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 p.m., Wednesday, February 25, 1976 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRO DUCTION OF GUESTS 317 MR . SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 50 students of Grade IX standing of the McKenzie Junior High. These students are under the direction of Mr. Conrad Artibes and Mr. A lex Federchuk. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Dauphin, the Minister of Highways. We also have 38 students of Grade 9 standing of the Grandview School.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Roblin. On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Assembly I welcome you here this afternoon. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister for Highways. TABLING OF REPORTS HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to Table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Department of Highways for the year 1974-75. MR .

SPEAKER: Any other Tabling of Reports or Ministerial Statements? The Honourable Minister for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Report of the Board of Internal Economy Commissioners and the Annual Report required tmder

Section 13 of the Trade Practices Enquiry Act and the Annual Report for the Manitoba Telephone System for the year ending March 31, 1975 . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Health. HON. IAURENT L, DESJARDINS (Minister of Health) (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to Table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Lotteries Commission to the end of March, 1975. I'm sorry I haven't got a fancy ribbon tied around it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. HON. RUSSELL DOERN (Minister of Public Works) (Elmwood): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to Table the Department of Public Works Annual Report and the Annual Report of the Land Value Appraisal Commission. MR. SPEAKER: Any other reports or Ministerial Statements? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. INTRO DUCTION OF BILLS MR . EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West) introduced Bill 26,

an Act respecting the City of Brandon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . DONALD W. CRAIK (Leader of the Official Opposition) (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the First Minister.

In view of the fact that the Anti inflation Board guidelines leave the option to the Province of Manitoba to include in it those Crown corporations, and specifically Manitoba Hydro, for review by the Anti inflation Board, I wonder if the First Minister would indicate whether the government is prepared to include in the Federal-Provincial agreement which it has indicated it will sign very soon, the right of the Anti-inflation Board to review Manitoba Hydro's new rate structure.

318 February 25, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is quite right. The agreement will be signed soon. In fact, I can advise that the agreement has been - the Canad a-Manitoba particular agreement has been signed by the appropriate ·Federal Minister and will now be signed here. As to the form of agreement, it is the standard form of agreement that's described under

Section 4, sub-sectiun 3 of the Act as it passed through parliament and the standard form of agreement as signed by Ontario. We propose to sign the same kind. There is no reluctance on our part, Sir, to have the Anti-inflation Board take under review and advise on the utility rates as they would apply in our province as compared with the other provinces of Canada. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, then to ask a question directly, we draw from the First Minister's remarks that the Hydro increases will be then reviewed by the Anti inflation Board. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the sequence is as I have indicated, and I think as my Honourable Friend has indicated himself - I have assumed all along that the Anti-inflation Board should have the opportunity to review and advise. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the First Minister, it was indicated in some of the media at least, yesterday, that the Hydro rate structure would be submitted to the Public utilities Boar d for advocation; I wonder if the First Minister could indicate whether that is the intention of the government. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it is the case that where a utility is operating under statutory authority, which is such that there is a non-diversion of revenues from the corporation to consolidated general revenue, then there is no purpose in referring it to the Utility Board; and particularly this year when we have a special rather large revue mechanism in the form of the Anti-inflation Board of Canada. We are quite prepared to have it reviewed there. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary.

Can the First Minister indicate whether the increased rates by Manitoba Hydro will be held up until they are ratified then by the Anti-inflation Board? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I think that the question will prove to be academic in the sense that the increase does not take effect until some time from now, yes, so that in the course of six weeks, I would assume the Anti-inflation Board will have an opportunity to do this review. In fact, Sir, my understanding is that they have a section, an administrative

section of the Anti-inflation Board that is relating itself with some degree of specialization to utility rates, having just dealt with the Ontario Hydro rates as well. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture, and it relates to a headline in today's Free Press, "New Gun Laws Proposed." I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture, in view of the speech he made to the House last night, if he is going to request the Federal Govern ment to exempt the NDP Party from such a law if passed. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I think that that would only be appropriate if members opposite, unfortunate to the people of Manitoba, would be the powers of the authority and then subsequently restricted the freedom of the people of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Highways.

Can the Minister indicate to the House if the government has completed its study involving the use of recycled glass as aggregate for asphalt in road and highway construction? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Highways. HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I am not able to comment on that at this time, so I have to take that question as notice.

February 25, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the Minister will also take as notice if the study has been completed and he has the recommendations, are there any plans to use this recycled glass in construction of roads and highways? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct this question to Minister in charge of lotteries. Will the Minister now consider using Canadian Legion or Chamber of Commerce in place of Sports Federation who have rejected the role as distributors?

And a supplementary, when will the Minister be making a statement correcting the conflicting reports re profit and lostl in the WesCan Lotteries as reported in today's daily? lV1R. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Well, Mr. Speaker, as far as the third partner in Corporation A, this will be announced fairly soon. As far as a statement, the first opportunity - I don't know if this will be during my Estimates - I intend to speak at length on the question of lottery and try to explain the full situation to the members of this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell.

MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Attorney-General. I would like to ask the Attorney-General if it is permissible under Manitoba statute for a judge to excuse himself or ••• opinion. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member is asking for a legal MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, I'm asking the Attorney-General as the chief officer in charge of the courts if it is permissible for a judge to excuse himself to act in a case in which the accused is known to be a friend of himself - is known to be a personal friend. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. 319 HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, it certainly is that any judge, if he feels due to a social or other relationship that he might have in respect to any accused ap pearing before him, that it might interfere with his judgment, it would be expected that he would probably excuse himself in such a case. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (River Heights): My question is to the First Minister.

I wonder if he could indicate whether there has been any communication with the Federal Government about a future constitutional conference. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure I heard every word of my honourable friend's question but I will try to respond and he can pose a subsequent question if he wishes. There is an interest on the part of the Government of Canada, I think I would have to say, to the reconvening of Dominion-Provincial conferences to attempt to gain patriation of the constitution by way of changing the amending formula primarily.

The Prime Minister undertook some time last fall to work towards the setting of a date for the convening of such a conference, but to date I don't believe any of my counterparts in the other provinces have received any suggested specific dates. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, by way of another question then to the First Minister, I wonder if he can indicate whether there's been any communication from Ottawa that if an agreement is not reached soon there will be tmilateral action taken by the Feden.al Government in this matter. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I have heard some such suggestion, and for all I know such an idea may be harboured in the minds of the Federal Cabinet, but I cannot confirm that as being fact. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, by way of another question. Has there been any communication that the Province of Quebec would now agree to arriving at a consensus with respect to the repatriation of the constitution on the basis of payment of the Olympic debt? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I know that the objective of patriating the constitution is a high priority in the mind of the Prime Minister. I think it would be

320 - - - February 25, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) • .fair to say that it is higher priority with him t han with most of the Premiers as far as I could tell. Whether it is -such a high priority that he would be willing to engage in horse trading relative to the Olympic debt as it faces Montreal and/or the Province of Quebec. I can't say. But let me take this opportunity. to register unequivocal opposition to the very thought. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. In view of a state ment in today's paper by Councillor Wade that the whole arts' group are a bunch of bums, i wonder could the Minister confinn if that's NDP policy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Tourism and Recreation. HON. RENE TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism and Recreation) (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I take it that we're living in a free society and I can't dictate to anyone what he or she will say. I certainly don't endorse the statement. MR. McKENZIE: 'Mr.

Speaker, I have a question of the Honourable the Minister in charge of Lotteries. Again in view of the statement today that more than 1. 2 million of the revenue, if not all, would be swallowed by the provincial commissions and other expenses re the WesCan Lottery, could he elaborate and give me some information of what this statement is all about? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. If elaboration is necessary, it can be done under the estimates. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker. I have a supplementary. I wonder, would the Honourable Minister confinn if that's a fact. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Health. MR.

DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I'll follow your advice. I stated repeatedly that I'll be ready to debate this question at the first opportunity but not in a situation like this, that it be cross-examination. While I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could give some of the answers to a question that was asked of me yesterday. The first one from the Honourable Member from River Heights, and his question was: I wonder if the Minister is in a position to inform the House how many operations were postponed at the Health Science and the Misericordia General Hospital.

The answer is, that during the ten-day dispute, the He alth Science Centre, approximately 400 operations were postponed; the normal surgical volume of 75 procedures per day was reduced by about one half. During the Misericordia dispute, 95 operating room procedures and 34 day surgical procedures were postponed. I must emphasize that no operation postponed was of an emergent nature and the decision to postpone was taken by the medical administration of the hospital. The Honourable Member from Ste. Rose, you remember, Mr.

Speaker, his question of: Why were 200 of the patients sent home did not need home care or any beds? I think that I should elaborate here that these people were recuperating after surgery and so on, and nonnally they might have stayed a day or so and it was deemed safe by their doctor to let them go home. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the First Minister in charge of Manitoba Hydro and would ask the First Minister to inform the House whether the Canadian Union of Public Employees of Manitoba Hydro will be holding a strike vote tonight. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, if I heard the honourable member's question correctly, he's asking whether CUPE, or the Canadian Union of Public Employees Employees would be holding a strike vote tonight. I like to think I keep in close touch, Mr. Speaker, but I can't pretend that I am that closely in touch as to know that kind of answer.

I would have to defer to the Minister of Labour who is more appropriate to respond in this case, in any case. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour.

February 25, 1976 321 ORAL QUESTIONS HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, there have been continuing negotiations with the employees of Manitoba Hydro and the negoti ators for Manitoba Hydro. It could conceivably be that a vote internally with the union may take place today. I think that is a matter of internal operation of the union in question, and it is their right. Insofar as the outcome of that vote, if indeed it is taking place, then we will have to consider our position at that particular time. MR. BANMAN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the Minister then could assure the people of Manitoba that there will be no interruption as far as Hydro service to them is concerned. MR. PAULLEY: No more, Mr. Speaker, than I can assure the people of Manitoba there will be no interruptions in the debates in this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the First Minister.

In view of the anti-inflation measures, is this government prepared to limit expenditures for politicar conventions in Manitoba to an amount below the $4.7 million spent by the Federal Conservative Party? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well Mr. Speaker, I don't know if that is germane to the proceedings of this House. If I were asked for a personal opinion, I could express one, but it wouldn't be in my capacity as Premier. I would only have to sa y that the figure of $4. 7 million seems to me to be not possibly accurate and I will take it as notice. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Health. Did the Minister receive a petition pleading for the continuation of Outreach? It's the program for post psychiatric patients at 189 Evanson. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, maybe this was sent to my office, but I haven't seen it yet. MR. WILSON: A question to the Minister of Renewable Resources. I have a report in front of me that has 13 plus 5 airplanes, and I received one the other day which has 75 MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR.

WILSON: My question is, is this a typing error? Are there 75 planes now? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Renewable Resources. HON. HARVEY BOSTROM (Minister of Renewable Resources) (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, I believe my estimates will be coming up very shortly in the House and I'll be prepared to deal with these questions in specific at that time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK : Thank you Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Attorney General.

I wonder if the Attorney-General can confirm that in exercising authority for wire tapping under the Criminal Code that he delegated that authority to one of his officials in his department - or designated an official. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-Ge neral. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, under the provision of the federal legislation pertaining to wire tapping, the Attorney-General does have the authority to delegate the delegates to that area of responsibility to others, and I have done that in respect to delegating of such authority to, I believe, two or three other senior officials within the Department of the Attorney-General. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. In that Pilutik case when application was made and granted by the official of his department, was that done without the knowledge of the Minister himself or was he aware when that application was granted? MR.

PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would have to check. I think that the original application was made by an official at that time without my knowledge. I was informed prior to applications for renewal, but I believe the original application was done without my knowledge at that time, yes.

322 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. February 25, 1976 MR. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable the Minister of Labour and relates, Sir, to the provision of emergency transportation services in Winnipeg during the transit strike. Can the Minister advise the House whether it is the policy of the government to encourage or discourage the provision of such .emergency services? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Labour. MR.

PAULLEY: Unlike the application of the Conservative party in incidents like this, we have no intention of compulsory - making provisions for the people of the Province of Manitoba. I leave that to the Conservative Party and not this government. MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps we coUld leave something to the government here. Does the government regard the persons providing such emergency transportation services as strike breakers or scabs? MR. PAULLEY: We leave this to the conscience of the people concerned unlike the oration we heard from the Member from Pembina last night. MR.

SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the .. . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please, order please. Would the two gentlemen leave kindly if they have a private discussion to make. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. I wonder if the Minister can indicate if he indicated to the Manitoba Sports Federation that they could only be allowed to sell Western Lottery only if they got out of Sports Toto, is that correct? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Health. MR. DESJARDINS: If I understand - my honourable friend can shake his head if I get the question right - my honourable friend is asking me if they woUld participate in Corporation A if they did not sell any other lottery? That's absolutely correct. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Renewable Resources. MR. BOSTROlVI: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have an answer to a question that I took as notice yesterday, the question from the Honourable Member for Arthur relating to the International Joint Commission report.

I believe the member was wondering whether or not the Manitoba-Saskatchewan Joint Commission and the information coming from that study would be availahle to the International Joint Commission in their report which is due at the end of the calendar year. The answer, Mr. Speaker, is that it is essential that the International Joint Commission Garrison Study be completed as early as posllible in order that development does not proceed too far, thereby precluding stopping or altering the Garrison Project.

Therefore it would not be desirable to delay the International Joint Commission Study on the Garrison Project by waiting until the Souris River Basin Study is completed. As I stated yesterday, Mr. Speaker, I assume that the IJC would be cognizant of any information coming from the Souris River Basin Study, and I can now say definitely that all information from the Souris River Basin Study is being made available to the International Joint Commission Garrison Study group. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J.

DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): I thank the Minister for his reply to my question in regard to the - particularly to the Manitoba-Saskatchewan study, and I would just ask him a further question. Has there been correspondence between his office or the office of the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources to indicate that consideration will be given to whatever interim report the Manitoba-Saskatchewan Commission Study will involve? MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Speaker, my understanding from the information I have provided from the Minister of Mines' office is that the International Joint Commission Garrison Study group will be considering the information from the Manitoba-Saskatchewan Souris River Basin Study at the same time as their study is going on. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights.

February 25, 1976 323 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SIDNEY SPIVAK Q. C. (River Heights) : Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. In view of his answers, can he indicate whether there is a concern on the government's part that the conclusions of the International Joint Commission may very well be different from the final conclusions of the study. Information may be passed on, but the determination and conclusions of that study will not have been completed and it's quite possible that the study itself will in fact be at variance with the International Joint Commission. MR. BOST ROM: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I can only say that the assumptions that the honourable member is making are probably not correct, in that I'm sure that the International Joint Commission will be considering all the pertinent and relevant information before they make their recommendations to the Canadian and U. S. govern ments. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, then the Minister is not in a position to assure the House that the conclusions of the study will in fact be before the International Joint Commission. MR. SP EAKER: Order please. The honourable member is debating an issue and not asking a question. MR . SPIVAK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, has the government any assurance that the conclusions of the study, its determination, its decision, will in fact be bP-fore the International Joint Commission? MR . BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, as far as can be determined I will take this question as notice. I can only add that the honourable member seems to be taking the competence of the International Joint Commission into question, and that is something that I am not prepared to do. Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to respond to what I believe to be the Honourable Member for Wolseley's question respecting aircraft.

I believe from his comments that he was referring to the first parre of the Air Division report which I submitted to the House yesterday, and he mentioned the number 75 in relation to aircraft. I believe he is misreading the sentence. The sentence reads, "The Air Division fleet of aircraft in 1974 and 1975 consisted of the following types." The 75 does not refer to the number of aircraft. MOTIO N OF CONDOLENCE MR . SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, as Honourable members are well aware, there is a time honoured tradition in this House to pay respect to, by way of motions of condolence to families of former members of this House deceased, and it is indeed a time honoured tradition which is carried out usually quite early in a new session. It falls my lot today to introduce the first of three such condolence motions, and I should propose to do that now, Sir. At this time I draw attention of honourable members to the passing last December 5th, of a former member of this Assembly in the period between 1949 and 1962, the late John Martin Hawryluk.

In the past when we have had these condolence motions, I have found myself speaking to the memory of persons some of whom I had no personal acquaintantship with, but in the case of Mr. Hawryluk I can say that my remarks will be tinged with the fact that I was very close, a personal acquaintance of him, and colleague in this Chamber for a period of approximately four years. Mr. Hawryluk was a native born Canadian, raised and educated here in Winnipeg.

He was also one who had, I suppose because of parental interest and influence, retained all through his life a very strong cultural and linguistic affinity for the Ukrainian culture and language.

He came from a part of our city which made it all the more remarkable that in the depth of the depression years that his family and he should have found it possible for him to continue his education on through post graduate studies, and in 1933 he earned the degree of Bachelor of Science followed by a Bac helor of Education; and for all of his working years he was a high school teacher and then subsequently a principal in East Kildonan. I remember, just as a personal

324 February 25, 1976 MOTION OF CONDOLENCE (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) •.•• • side, Sir, that in the days in which he was a member of this Assembly it was quite often that he would find himself rushing to sittings of this· House or Committees thereof from his school supervisory duties. But he was one who led an active life and I suppose the pace didn't bother him at the time, although whether it does in later years is, I suppose, always subject to conjecture.

But indeed his life was active, not only in his chosen career, but also in the fact that he seemed to have found time to serve as a citizen on many different communities arid cultural groups. He was President of the East Kildonan Teachers group, the Winnipeg Canoe Club, the Ukrainian Professional Businessmen's Club; al though it doesn't. say so, I know he was also active in CUC, the Canadian Ukrainian Committee, and also he was a member of the Canadian Ukrainian Athletic Committee, and so on and so forth.

He was named to the Manitoba Advisory Committee on multi culturalism earlier in this decade and also had quite a bit of involvement in various national cultural efforts. I might add as well that he served on the Board of Regents and the Senate at the University of Winnipeg, and with all these he always maintained a very amazingly strong affinity for the Ukrainian culture, language and life. I only wish, Sir, that my Ukrainian were proficient enough so that I - because I think it would be so appropriate to quote some appropriate verse in the language of his affinity to his memory.

But rather than do an inadequate job of that, Sir, I will have to confine my remarks to what I have already spoken. So to his family, I should like on behalf of all honourable members, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Education, that this House convey to the family of the late: John Martin Hawryluk, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family.

MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education) (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I to o have know Mr. Hawryluk and his family, I suppose for well over 25 years and although I have not had the privilege of sitting with him in this Chamber, I have had the privilege of getting to know him as a legislator, as a teacher and as a community worker. As a legislator, Mr. Speaker, he did gain the reputation of beingknown and respected as a constituency man, one particularly concerned and interested in the welfare of those whom he was elected to represent. I know, Mr.

Speaker, that in this Chamber he participated in the debates of the estimates, the department of particular concern to him of course was Education and I'm certain that in his contribution to that debate he did thereby offer and make some contribution towards the moulding and the development of the education program in the Province of Manitoba today. As a teacher he indeed was �J. true professionalist, a leader in his profession.

Perhaps it was the influence of the depression days which may have had some impact on the type of man that he was and that may have developed within him, that greater degree of consciousness and sensitivity to the needs of children, and in his mind the interests and needs of children stood foremost in the conduct of his school, both as a principal and as a teacher. I've mentioned that he was a professionalist.

At all times during his teaching career he was sensitive to the changing needs and demands and the need for change, not only change for change's sake, but change that would meet the needs as they varied with the change in our social and economic structure in our society. As an administrator, Mr. Speaker, he was respected by all with whom he worked. He was one who managed to generate and maintain. a· spirit of teamwork with all of those on his staff. As the Premier had mentioned in moving the motion, Mr.

Speaker, that he did come from a family who were very much involved in community activity, and hence that interest within him. I wish to underline the fact, Mr. Speaker, that he was very very active in the Ukrainian Canadian community and various social service groups and took a direct active participation in all, and through his participation thereto I know

February 25, 1976 325 MOTION OF CONDOLENCE (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• that he has made his contribution toward the develop ment and enrichment of our cultural mosaic; and developed and enriched in a proper perspective, not with the purpose in mind of setting one cultural group up separate and apart from others but rather to develop those characteristics in such a manner as to make us part of one community, the Canadian community.

He was a man of principle, a humanitarian, a man with a social conscience and a gentleman, and no doubt that his name will be enshrined in history among the many others who may be regarded as the builders of our province. As the Premier has indicated, he was one who had treasured the native tongue of his parents very dearly and was very fluent in it, and I think that at this point in time there are only two words that come to mind that are probably most fitting and appropriate. In Ukrainian they are "veechna pamiat", "everlasting memory", which is what I'm sure, Mr.

Speaker, the members of the House would wish to extend at this point in time on the occasion of expressing our condolences to his widow Ollie, sister Helen and relatives. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the Official Opposition would like to join with the mover and seconder of this condolence motion in sending condolences to the survivors of John Hawryluk. I want to pass on in particular the best wishes of the Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party who was in the Chamber for a few years with Mr.

Hawryluk, and his comments were that he was one of the more humane gentlemen of the House, appreciated on both sides of the Chamber and that he wanted his good warm wishes passed on to the family. So, Mr. Speaker, we, as I say, join with the mover and seconder in this motion in sending condolences to the family. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, the Liberal group wish to associate themselves with the motion. I or any of my colleagues did not have the good fortune to sit with Mr.

Hawryluk, but all the same we know of his good workS and we know of his place in the community and we join in the sentiments expressed. MR. SPEAKER: In accepting and agreeing to the Motion of Condolence will the honourable members please rise for a moment of silence. (Moment of silence.) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I would propose - I have the concurrence in some way to signal concurrence, it's forthcoming from the Honourable Member for Minnedosa and the Honourable Member for Gimli to consider the other two motions tomorrow, if that's all right. IVIR.

SPEAKER: Agreed? (Agreed) Address for Papers. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. ORDERS OF THE DAY - ADDRESS FOR PAPERS MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin, that a humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, praying for a copy of the Feasibility Study re Crocus Foods Ltd. undertaken by the government at the expense of the milk producers of Manitoba. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, we have no objection to that order. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? So ordered.

Orders for Return. The Honourable Member for Charleswood. ORDERS FOR RETURN MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for La Verendrye, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return

326 February 25, 1976 ORDERS FOR RETURN (MR. MOUG cont'd) ••••• showing: 1. the estimate of the cost of renovation of the Winnipeg Auditorium when purchased from the City of Winnipeg; 2. the actual cost of renovations to date; 3. estimated cost of completion and completion date. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Public Works. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, we have no objection to that. MR. SPEAKER: Motion agreed to? So ordered. The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. MOUG: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, Verendrye, that an Order of the House do issue for estimate of the cost of the Woodsworth Building; 2. 3. estimated cost at completion. MOTION presented. seconded by the Member for La a Return showing the original total cost to February 1st, 1976; MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Public Works. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, we accept that order. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed to the motion? So ordered. The Honourable Member for Charleswood again. MR. MOUG: Mr. Speaker, the third Order, we received it as a Return yesterday. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. The Honourable Minister for Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if you'd kindly call Second Readings on Bills in the order that they appear on the Order Paper. SECOND READINGS - GOVERNMENT BILLS BILL NO. 2 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE CRIMINAL INJURIES COMPENSATION. ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. Bill No. 2. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY presented Bill 2,

an Act to Amend the Criminal Injuries Compensation Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the amendments are not of a particularly critical or important nature but they are significant. The present legislation provides only for compensation where the victim of a criminal act was unemployed. The new proposed legislation provides for minimum compensation where the victim was unemployed or his average earnings were below the minimum wage rate.

The purpose of this amend ment is to ensure tha t someone who is working though not earning the minimum wage is not treated less favourably than someone who is not working at all. Also presently the existing legislation provides that benefits shall be determined in an amount equivalent to the benefits had the victim, a workman injured in the course of his employment pur suant to the provisions of the Workmen's Compensation Act ••• The present Criminal Injuries Compensation Act does not provide for the resolu tion of medical problems.

Therefore the proposed amendments provide for the resolution of medical questions in the same manner as that which is provided for in the Workmen's Compensation Act. Also there were enquiries insofar as what happens when an unemployed person receiving benefits is the victim making application for benefits under the Criminal Injuries Compensation Act. The Act provides that from any award there shall be deducted any benefits received by the victim through any accident or sickness, or life insurance or compensation schemes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried.

February 25, 1976 327 BILL NO, 3 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE GARAGE KEEPERS ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. Bill No. 3 MR. HOWARD PAWLEY presented Bill 3,

an Act to Amend the Garage Keepers Act, for second reading, MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: The present legislation provides for a Clerk of the Court to sign the notice required under the Garage Keepers Act where a person disputes the charges of the garage keeper and pays the equivalent of the bill of the garage keeper into court. The purpose of the notice is to have the vehicle released to the person, who deems himself to be aggrieved pending determination of the issue in court.

This amendment was proposed by the Board of County Court Judges, because while a County Court Judge is usually available to sign the notice in Winnipeg, Brandon, Dauphin or Portage la Prairie, in all other areas of the province where the County Court Judge is not resident at that location, it appears logical to allow the Clerk of the County Court to sign the required notice.

Pursuant to the provisions of the Act where the owner of the vehicle disputes the indebtedness to the garage keeper, that owner must pay the amount of the indebtedness claimed together with ten percent of the indebtedness up to $50.00 into court. Upon service of the notice to the garage keeper of the payment, this lien ceasea to exist, then the County Court will determine the amount of the indebtedness. Also the proposed bill provides for the repeal of

Part II of the Garage Keepers Act and this reflects the recommendations of the Automotive Trades Association Manitoba passed by way of resolution at their annual convention on March 23rd, 1974. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle- Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Pembina, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 4-

AN ACT TO AMEND THE MENTAL HEALTH ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. Bill No. 4 HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk) presented Bill 4,

an Act to amend the Mental Health Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR . PAWLEY: There are a number of amendments included in this bill, generally amendments of a technical nature: The first amendment - the main purpose of it is to avoid accidental court appointment of a committee where the Public Trustee is already the Statutory Committee.

This procedural error has occurred in a few cases and, therefore, as an interim measure the Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench has issued a practice direction whereby the Public Trustee is required to be served with applications for appointment of private committees. The incidental benefit is that the amendment gives the Public Trustee official status in court applications which will enable him to appear before the court and in appropriate cases make his views known to the court.

Also where the court is faced with opposition from a member of the patient's family, it may at that time direct the Public Trustee to administer the estate in question and thereby avoid adjournments and perhaps new applications. The second amendment provides that,

whereas that presently under the existing provisions of the Act it is necessary for the person replacing the Public Trustee as committee to obtain a Court Order confirming the replacement. This procedure is necessary because the Act is not too clear on this point. A replacement by Order-in Council would do away with legal costs incidental to court applications. Further, the initial statutory appointment of the Public Trustee is on the basis that the patient is a mentally disordered person. This fact having been established it is necessary for the applicant to go to the court for the same finding. The third amendment. The Public Trustee frequently encounters administrative

328 February·25, 1976 BILL 4 (MR. PAWLEY cont"d) •.••• difficulties in situations where the ward patient dies after a sale of his real property has been made but before a formal transfer of land is executed by the Public Trustee as his committee. Under the law, the Public Trustee ceases to be the committee upon his ward's death, and in many cases real estate trans actions have been held up until a relative of the ward obtains the necessary grant of probate or admmistraticin ·from the Surrogate court. This situation often works as a detriment to the estate concerned.

Enactment of the proposed amendment will enable the Public Trustee to complete the documentation or the formalities with respect to real estate transactions made ·by him during the lifetime of the patient. Occasionally the Public Trustee becomes committee of a patient who prior to his mental disorder was the executor-administrator of an unadministered estate. This provision will enable the Public Trustee to complete the administration without having to go through the formalities of obtaining a grant from the Surrogate Court.

The rationale behind this amendment is that since the Public Trustee has authority, jurisdiction, to administer the estate of the personal representative during his mental incapacity, he should also be considered responsible enough to complete the unfinished administration of the estate of the deceased person. Of course if there are relatives or interested parties available and willing to apply for and obtain the necessary grant in place of the patient, the Public Trustee will not act under this provision.

A further amendment deals with the law in respect to the ademption of legacy, which law of legacy states that if and when a testator sells or otherwise disposes of his own property which he has bequeathed by his will to a beneficiary, the sale or disposal defeats the bequest and the beneficiary is not entitled to the proceeds of sale of such property in the event of the death of the testator. This state of law is capable of resulting in awkward situations for the Public Trustee.

If the Public Trustee is the legal representative of a patient, sells a bequeathed property of his ward, the beneficiary thereof loses the bequest. This has already happened in one case. Fortunately the beneficiary gives his consent to such sale in that case and relieved the Public Trustee of his dilemma. The Public Trustee in his representative capacity does not wish to be in this unhappy situation.

It is one thing for a person of sound mind to change his will or dispose of a bequeathed property because he has the absolute right to do so, but it is quite another thing for the Public Trustee in his representative capacity to dispose of the bequeathed property and therefore alter his ward's will. This amendment will preserve the right of the beneficiary to receive the proceeds or unspent portion thereof. Such sale of disposition of bequeathed properties may become necessary by reason of the ward's financial needs or difficulties arising from administration.

There are a number of other amendments in the bill but they are, Mr. Speaker, purely of a very technical nature. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland)': I beg to move Mr. Speaker, seconded by the Honourable Member from Birtle-Russell, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 5 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE CONDOMINIUM ACT MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk) presented Bill 5';

an Act to amend The Condominium Act, for second reading. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR . PAWLEY: The first amendment deals with the fact that the Public Trustee is in fact the official administrator of all judicial districts in the Province of Manitoba. Other amendments deal with the exact form as was recommended by the Superintendents of Insurance through the Superintendents of Insurance conference held in September of 1975. Uniformity of legislation relating to insurance for condominia has been recommended by the insurance industry for a number of years. This matter has been studied not only by the Superintendents of Insurance, but also by the Uniform

February 25, 1976 329 BILL 5 (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) • . . • • Law conference. It should be noted that this legislation has been recommended for adoption in all provinces across Canada, the purpose being that similar types of policies can then be written for condominium corporations and owners of units in condominia all across Canada.

I'd like to just refer to the resolution of the Superintendents of Insurance, September 1975, which is worded as follows: "That the Association recommends that the several provinces enact for inclusion in condominium legislation the insurance provision submitted by the Committee to the 197 4 conference. " I think, Mr. Speaker, that when we reach committee stage, it would be probably the best point to deal with the specifics and particulars of the legislation as recommended. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. CRAJK: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL. NO. 7 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE FARM MACHINERY AND EQUIPMENT ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mjnister for Agriculture, Bill No. 7. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet) presented Bill 7,

an Act to amend The Farm Machinery and Equipment Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, members opposite would appreciate that we now have had a few years of experience with the new legislation and indeed the opera tions of the Farm Machinery Board, which I may point out has worked very well in trying to resolve disputes and problems arising in the industry, problems on the part of the buyers and sellers of farm machinery. The amendments that have been proposed really relate to that experience, and mainly Mr.

Speaker, it's the intent to tidy up again the legislation that we have on the books. These are not major amendments. There is no great significance attached to them. The intent here is to eliminate or to bring about greater clarity with respect to some of the existing provisions; to provide for the protection to the dealers and the purchasers by providing for larger new farm machinery to be identified with respect to the year of manufacture.

This will identify the age of the machines where machines are moved between dealers and their suppliers, as well as identifying the age of the machine when it is traded in or resold. We also wish to provide for uniformity in legislation as far as possible, with similar legislation in Saskatchewan and Alberta, and these amendments will make it possible for companies to use the same contract for sale of farm machinery in all three provinces, and that's been the basis of the negotiations and discussions that we have had with the other two provinces.

Saskatchewan and Alberta have introduced bills providing for amendments to their Acts to make them similar to the Manitoba Farm Machinery and Equipment Act. We also want to bring into the Act the standard international units or metrification, and beyond that, Mr. Speaker, the balance of the changes are merely corrections and errors that are in the present Act, typographical or something of that nature. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roc k Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Brandon West, that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried.

.330 February 25, 1976 BILL NO . 8 -A N ACT TO AMEND THE WOME N'S INSTITUTE ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Agriculture . HON. SAMUE L USKIW (Minister for Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet) presented Bill 8,

an Act to amend· The Women's Institutes Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister . MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, over the past year or so the Manitoba Women 's Institute has been examiniilg ways to make the organization more effective and to adopt its structure to, what they consider, present day circumstances, so that it can better meet the needs of members and of rural Manitoba. As a re sult of that ass essment, Mr. Speaker, the executive of the Women's Institute has asked me for certain changes in the Act which would permit greater flexibility in their organization. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Women's Institute is now operating on a somewhat more independent basis rather than directly under the supervision of the Manitoba Department of Agriculture, several amendments are being proposed, which allow that organization greater flexibility. A number of requirements which have been fixed by the Act are now being left to regulations by by-law. Fo r example, Mr. Speaker, the officers of the organization, the election procedure, setting dates for annual meetings and the number of meetings per year.

Also the name of the board is being changed from the "Advisory Board" to the "Provincial Boar d. " The amendments remove much of the rigidity that is present in the Act and therefore allows both the Provincial Board and the local institutes more freedom to govern themselves and through their by-laws. However, the objectives of the Women's Institute remain the same and their pro grams and activities will not change direction because of these changes.

The changes do give the institute more control over their own actions and provide for more flexibility in their planning and administration; plus the amendments will provide the Women's Institute with the opportunity to act on a more independent basis and develop a more effective administrative structure consistent with present day conditions. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. McGRE GOR : I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Pembina, that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO . 9 -A N ACT TO AMEND THE SNOWMOBILE AC T MR.

SPEAK ER: Bill No. 9, the Honourable Minister for Highways. HON . PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways) (Dauphin) presented Bill 9,

an Act to amend The Sno wn10bile Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister. MR . BURTNIAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, the bill before the House, while containing a number of minor amendments, there are two basic new principles that are being intro duced. The first of these is the replacement of the present two licence plates is sued for snown1obiles for identification purposes with two permanent decals.

Now the present means of identification of snowmobiles through licence plates has for some part proven largely ineffective because of the size of the plate and the only loca tion where it can be conveniently attached to the snowmobile is in the cowling, between the lower edge of the seat and the foot guard. In that loc ation the plate is almost totally or partly obscured by the. driver's and passenger's feet making identification of the owner extremely difficult. This in turn makes enforcement of the various provisions of the Snowmobile Act not only difficult, but in most instances virtually impossible.

The size and shape of the cowling made it impractical to affix a plate of the size required for proper identification at that location. Fo r these reasons then a system has been devised which we believe is unique , employing two reflective decals which will be permanently attached to the snowmobile and which will be transferable from owner to owner.

February 25, 1976 BILL 9 (MR. BURTNIAK cont'

d) The single plate will be issued along with the decals solely for the purpose of establishing that the snowmobile was registered for the current registration year. 331 The other new principle of the bill that I'm introducing at the present time , has to do with providing immunity from liability of farmers or other occupiers of land from liability for injuries snowmobile operators or their passengers may sustain while operating the snowmobile on such land. As a result of two court decisions, one in Saskatchewan and the other in Ontario - and I might add> Mr.

Speaker, that so far we have been for tunate that this has not occurred in the Province of Manitoba, but we're trying to make sure that this is prevented by this particular bill - that damages were awarded in Ontario and in Saskatchewan; the damages were awarded against the land owner even though the Act in those respective provinces, as well as in Manitoba, spec ifically prohibits the opera tion of snowmobiles on private land without the expressed or in1plied consent of the owner, For this reason it was deemed advisa ble to enact legisla tion which would protect property owners from liability for damages where snowmobile operators sustain injury or damage while operating their snown1obile without the owner's consent.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the amendment would not, however, protect the land owner from liability if he or she deliberately created a dangerous situation which could result in injuries to snown1obile operators and their pass engers. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I move seconded by the Honourable Member for Charleswood, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker; I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - DE PARTMENT OF AGRIC ULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN: I would refer honourable members to Page 5 of their Estimate Book, Resolution S(a) . The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW : Mr. Chairman, I an1 pleased to present for approval r1,y depart ment's estimate of expenditures of some $40, 772, 000 for the fiscal year 1976-77 .

The increase of $14 million, or 56 percent, over last year's voted estimate, the largest per centage increase of all departments, is a reflection of the government determination to bring stability to our agricultural industry. For the fourth consecutive year total farm cash receipts set a new record for Manitoba; Statistics Canada estin1ates total ca sh receipts from farming operations in 1975 at $88 7.7 million. About $45 million higher than in 1974 .

Operating and depreciation charges increased by an estimated $91 million to $583 million, so that realized net income declined by some $47 million to $364 million. I think members opposite would view that with a degree of concern, Mr . Chairman, because we certainly don't want to get into that cost-price squeeze that we got out of three or four years ago, but we are certainly fearful, Mr . Chairm an, that that could pos sibly occur again as long as cos ts keep going up every year and in the event that there n1ight be some slippage in the price of agricultural products, and in particular cereals in this coun try.

I think it should be remembered that we have not an assurance that grain prices are not going to slip down dramatically , and therefore we should be on our guard. The outlook for 1976 acc ording to Statistics Canada is that farm cash receipts might decline to $800 n1illion, while farm expenses and depreciation charges might rise by $60 million to $645 million. I should add however , Mr. Chai rman, that Statistics Ca nada emphasizes that such forecasts are hazardous and must be treated with caution, and also that many economists feel that the projected cash receipts figure is somewhat pessimistic .

For example, Manitoba farmers deferred about $45 million in payments for 1975 grain deliveries to the Ca nadian Wheat Board to January of 1976. It would also

332 February 25 , 1976 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'd) ••••• seem that the Statistic s Canada figures did not take into account the payments made and to be made under the Manitoba Beef Producers Income As surance Plan, and that is something that I think will change that pes simism quite dran1atically in the right direction, Mr.

Ch airmano Nevertheless although the projected cash receipts figure maybe somewhat pessimistic , the rapidly rising costs of operating farms should make us mindful that a drop in grain prices can bring a sudden end to the curren t prosperity and that we must continue to pursue policies to improve stability in our agricultural industry.

While this government remains of the opinion that agricultural stabilization is the responsibility of the Government of Canada, and while we are reluctant to become involved in provincial price stabilization programs , I am proud of the Income Assuranc e Program that we have developed for the Manitoba beef producers.

And in that respect, Mr, Chairman , I think I should point out to members opposite that we indeed were very reluctant to get into that progran1, but the circumstances as they were, and continue to be, are such that I don't think that we would be responsible in allowing our beef industry to slip back in terms of production, in terms of the bankruptcy that would occur if nothing were done, and that we are trying to exercise a degree of responsibility to prevent that. Fa cing drastically low cattle prices for the sec ond year in a row, many of our beef producers were in serious financial difficulties.

The Fe deral Agricultural Stabilization Act did nothing to help the cow-calf producer and has been totally ineffective in providing for stability in the beef industry, and this is something, Mr. Chairman, that members opposite who are involved in the beef industry are probably most appreciative of because the federal stabilization program really has no provision for the cow-calf operator. It is not within the terms of reference of their stabilization legislation , and so they have no capacity to respond to the needs of that group of producers in Canada. And to make matters worse, Mr.

Speaker, their policies actually tend to compound the problems of the cow-calf producer. In setting the guaranteed pric e for finished beef they take into account the cost of the calf and in last yea r's considerations in trying to determine the guaranteed price for finished beef for the next twelve month period which runs from August to August, the Government of Canada decided that they could lower the guarante ed price on finished beef simply because the price of calves was so low and therefore the costs of producing beef were much lower than the year before.

So members opposite can appreciate the contradiction that exists in a policy at the federal level with respect to the beef industry. One group within it having to suffer the consequences of in fact federal progran1s for another group within the same sector.

And so it was tragic that the stabilization program was really based and applied on the shoulders of the cow-calf producers who are the most vulnerable group whenever you have a down turn in the market cycle, I think that this is something - I don't think anyone that has any knowledge about the beef industry would argue with, the cow-calf producer historically has been the one to suffer the most dire consequenc es of a down turn in the market, while the people at the other end in the finishing business, people who were able to get out before things got too rou gh, or at least the worst position they would be in is perhaps get caught in one particular cycle of production, and then they could get out if there were no profits to be realized.

Not so with the cow-calf producer who really takes years in developing a good herd of cattle and wants to sustain good breeding stock and doesn't want to unload cattle that should be maintained for breeding purposes and production purposes, So we have an anomaly there that certainly cannot be dealt with under present national legislation under the Agricultural Products Stabilization Act. I might add, Mr. Chairman , when we were in Ottawa in July I did plead with the. .

Minister for Ca nada that we should take a look at the legislation and perhaps introduce some specific progran1 that would apply to cow-calf producers in particular. The Manitoba plan, that is the Beef Income Assurance Plan, is unique in that it provides for a contract system of production that offers farmers firm prices based on a cost of production formula over a five year period. For 1975 the formula indicated a cost price of 57 cents per pound, on an assumed weight of four hundred pound ca lves. The weighted average market price for steers and heifer calves in the period September 1

February 25 , 1976 333 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'd) • • • • • to November 15 , 1975 in Winnipeg was $29. 29 per hundred weight. The def iciency payment on 1975 calves amounted to $11 0, 84 per calf. A total of 5, 75 9 farmers signed contracts and enrolled 32, 987 cows into the program.. Mr. Speaker, it had occurred to me that I probably could have proj ected my keen interest into the beef sector of our agricultural industry more profoundly here today by perhaps putting on an attire that would reflect my interest in cattle.

I take pride now in the fact that I have the largest single cattle herd in probably North America, certainly the largest in Canada, and I don't know whether my friends opposite like that or dislike it, but I thought I shoul d point out that a Texas hat would be most fitting sitting alongside here, Mr. Chairman.

So you know I perhaps should even take into consideration membership in the various Beef Growers Associ ations, Canadian Cattlemen' s Ass ociation so that we-- (Interjec tion)--Well the Member for Morris is assumi ng perhaps that it would be in order for me to also charge the membership fee to those associations through the estin1ates of this department. And you know that is not something that did not occur, that is with respect to the time when members opposite were in governn1ent, Mr.

Speaker , because I recall very distinctly when we were in opposition the que stion of a membership fee to the Manitoba Club being paid by the Minister, I believe it was, of Financ e, Mr. Gurney Evans. So that is not something that would be a prece dent if it did occur at this point in our his tory as far as Manitoba is concerned. But in any event, Mr. Chairman , I simply want to point out that we are heavily involved and committed towards this industry and certainly the nun1ber of participa ting farmers reveals that this is a gigantic undertaking and a com mitment on their part as well .

Payments were made on 16 5, 866 calves for a total of $31 7' 86lo 76. Now I want to take a momen t or two to indic ate the statistics per region with respect to participation in the plan, and this would be of some interest to at least some members opposite, keeping in mind that during the course of the introduction of that pro gr an1 that there were some very mi schievous comments coming from some members oppo site, and those comments were circulated across rural Manitoba and certainly made their way to my desk from time to tin1e and indeed to some of the meetings I attended.

The Central Region, and I'm sure most of you know where that is in terms of our regional system in this province, certainly repres ented by members opposite politically speaking , enroll ed 1, 01 3 producers for a total number of cows in the progran1 of 38 , 318, and for a payout of $3, 01 4, 626,3 2. Certainly an interest ing figure, and the Member for Rock Lake might be interest ed to !mow that many of his constituents are in the program . Certainly the Member for Morris should appreciate that as well.

In Eastern Manitoba we have 49 4 contracts , for a total of 16 ,1 78 cows, for a payout figure of $1, 267, 012. 40, In the Interla ke, and by the way in that particular region the largest percentage participation rate is in the southern or southeast corner. tin the Interlake we have 956 contracts, covering 42, 185 cows, for a payout figure of $3, 327, 195. 20, and th is should be of some interest to the Member for Lakeside. I don' know whether the Member for Lakeside has any viewpoint with respect to the progr an1, I on't recall hearing it other than by second or third hand, Mr.

Chairman, and the comm nts I got back was that, "It's a pretty good deal fellows, but please don't quote me ," H didn't want to give the Province of Manitoba too much credit even though he thought it was a fairly good program. --(I nterjection)--Well I hope I have encouraged my honourable frien to indicate his position with respect to the program . In the northwest, and this is most imere sting, Mr. Chairman , in the northwest we have 1, 409 contracts, that's the parkland ·region of Manitoba; we have 59,4 63 cows enrolled in the program for a payout figure o� $4,6 86, 31 5. 20 , and in that connection, Mr.

Chairman, it's worthy to note that the Member for Roblin didn't have very kind remarks with respect to the program , at least if the reports in the local papers were indicative of his feeling and his app:.:eciation or his viewpoint. I would be interested to know what the Member for Roblin had to say with respect to the fact that such a vast majori ty of beef producers in that area have decided to participate in the program . In the southwest, and this is most revealing , Mr. Chairman, because so often we hear from members opposite that that particular part of the province is so independent

334 February 25, 1976 SUPPLY - AGR ICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont 'd) ••••• and really doesn't want govern ment involvement in pro gramming to any extent. The small govern ment approach is really what has been espoused here by members representing that area, we find that that is the largest area of participa tion, 1, 887 contracts in the sou thwest region representing 76 , 843 cow s, for a payout figure of $6 , 022,7 1 3. 08o SOME MEMBER: Where? MR. USKIW: All in the so uthwest corner of Manitoba.

So my friends oppos ite wou ld · do well to take a re-evaluation as to what their con stituents are really saying and what they are thinking. Because certainly what they have been saying, if their con stituents were to either follow or recommend to them on the statements that they have been making or in line with those statements, then we should have had a virtually nil figure here, or a very small rate of participation ; only New Democrats could have been in this pro gram, if one was to listen to the comments of members oppo site. But in total , Mr.

Chairman, it is worthy to note that while we had proj ected a budget of 16 to 18 million dollars for the program, that we actually realized an expenditure of $1 8, 31 7, 861 , which is som ewhat beyond the target that we have ou rselves set. I need hardly say, Mr. Chairman, that I an1 very much impressed with the man ner in which Manitoba farmers have responded to this voluntary plan. Although the 1971 census data on the number of farmers with beef cows are very much out of date we can get some indication of the participation rate in the Income Ass urance Progran1. from the following figures.

I think this is more revealing , Mr. Chairman, as to who really is participating in the prog ran1 . In 1971 - that is according to Statistics Canada based on the 197 1 census - there were 7, 275 farms in the province with one to twelve beef cows; 433 farmers with 12 cows or less enrolled in the progran1.. I think these are significant revelatio ns. There are 1, 982 farms in 197 1 with between 13 and 17 cows and we have 398 farmers in this category on contract. In both of those categories we don't have a high percentage rate of participation.

If we look at the farms that in 1971 had more than 18 cows, we see that 7, 708 farms listed by census of Canada, 4, 899 enrolled in the prog ram for a participation rate of 64 percent of the 1971 base. So it's obvious the commercial producer s have seized onto the progran1. and are participating at a very high rate. If we single out the farms with 33 cows or mor e, there were 3, 619 farms in that category in 197 1; 3, 21 8 farmers in that category signed contracts ; 3, 21 8 out of 3, 61 9 which represents a partici pation rate of 89 percent of the 197 1 base. That is very very revealing to me, Mr. Chairman.

It does indicate a very high degree of participation and interest in the progr an1. on the part of the conm1ercial beef producers of Manitoba. Not so much participation on the part of those that don't have a large stake in the beef industry, but certainly a very drari1.atic participation rate on the part of the larger operator s or people who have a significant investment in the beef industry. Because a census of farms will be taken this summer we will be able to give a much more accurate report of the participation rate in the next session.

It is evident however that it is no exaggeration to say that the response of the beef producers in this province to the stabilization prog ram offered by this governme nt has been overwhelmin g. To help farmers who have suffered seriou s losses in feed supplies due to the heavy rains in the late summer and fall of 1975 the Government of Canada agreed to cost share in an Emergency Feed Assistance Program. As of February 20th, Mr. Chairman, we have provided assistance on more than 54 , 000 to ns of hay, 9, 000 tons of grain and 18 ,7 50 tons of alfalfa pellets.

The total cost of the Emergency Feed Assistance Prog ram to that date was $1, 1 77, 51 4.70 and we expect that a large an1.ount is yet to come towards the spring break-up perio d. Mr. Chairman, my main concer n, however, lies in the area of national dairy policy. We have a fairly buoyant grain industry. We have provided for a reasonable income assurance plan for our beef industry. Our pork producers are doing fairly well. The big problem on the horizon - not yet a problem but on the horizon - appears to be in the dairy sector and here, Mr. Chairman, it is a matter of national or Federal Governme nt dairy policy.

Fe bruary 25 , 19 76 335 SUPPLY � AGRICUL TURE (MR. USKIW cont'

d) I think I should recall for members opposite that the Minister of . Agriculture for Canada announced what he called a long-term dairy policy about a year ago, in which he had indicated that there was a need for something like a five-year commitment so that producers in the industry would know what to ex pect and what to gear up for in terms plant capacity investment and so on, cow numbers. Therefore he announced a very sub stantive progran1 with respect to dairy policy last spring. And you know what is most disturbing here, Mr.

Chairman, is the fact that it only took six months for the Govern ment of Canada to reverse that policy. I think it should be said loud and clear that that is to quite a degree an irresponsible position on the part of the Government of Ca nada through its Department of Agriculture, to have built up the expectations based on the operations of the Ca nadian Dairy Commis sion, to build up expectations based on guaran teed prices, a target price that Mr.

Whelan himself announced of $11 . 02 per hundred weight on industrial milk, only a year ago, to within six months find that they have reversed their position and have decided to cut severely back on their subsidies and indeed are suggesting that they want to cut back production as of April 1 next. In that connection, Mr. Chairman, we are pursuing discussi ons with the Govern ment of Ca nada.

In fact I have requested that we have a meeting of ministers to try to hammer out some sense out of national dairy policy, keeping in mind that many farmers existing and some yet to come on stream have made financial commitments based on the national dairy policy as it was announced a year ago.

It is totally unfair and in fact inhuman to now roll back, because the Canadian Dairy Co mmissi on has either misca lcu lated or the Governn1ent of Canada has decided to do a bit of belt tightening and there fore have chopped the Es timates from the Department of Agriculture as far as dairy pro duction is concerned and the commitment to the dairy industry is concerned. So we are very conscious of the problems that we may be faced with.

I want to indicate to members opposite that we are certainly not going to allow that to occur with out any effort on our part to prevent or to amend, to better our position, and we will be reporting to you as we progress with those discussi ons and as policy changes become necessary. We will also announce those to you whether it be at the provincial or national level. Turning to the Es timates of the department I would like to make the following observations: Total expenditures for the fiscal year 1976-77 are estimated at $40, 772, 800, an increase of some 14 .7 million over the Es timates approved in 19 75 .

A breakdown. The following items acc ount for the major increase s, Mr. Chairman. Fa rn1 Income Assu rance which is the beef progran1, 14 .2 million. Members opposite may wonder as to how we arrive at 14 .2 mi llion as a pay out figure for 1976 in the beef program.

That is based on the as sumption that nothing changes in the price of calves for the fall of 19 76, or the production year of 19 76 , and therefore the formula itself, while we paid out over $1 8 million last year or on last year 's production, the formula provides for a reduction of support on calves and some movement of support on finished beef pur suant to that formula. So therefore the 14 . 2 million represents about four-fifths of the cos t of last yea r's progran1 which means there are no new applicants coming in, if every thing stayed the same .

We do anticipate some upward revision in the market price of calves and there fore we also anticipate there will be new applicants and we think that we are not too far out in maintaining that figure as an estin1ate of our needs for the Beef As surance Program for 19 76. That of course will only be finally revealed through the participation rate again of those who have not yet entered the program. As you know, the program is an open thing, you can enter the progran1 any tin1e and it's of course a five-year contract from the date you enter.

So that some producers may choose to enter the progran1 this year or next year and so on. But these are estin1ates I think which are fairly close. We have provided for an increase of $1 30, 000 to the University of Manitoba resea rch grant and we have provided for additional administrative support of $1 67, 000 to the Manitoba Crop Insurance. That's based on the participation r.ate and the need for staff and costs of operating. We, I suppose, have about the best program in Canada and

336 February 25 , 1976 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'd) ••••• we should be proud of that and it' s, by the way, a credit to my friends opposite who initiated the program in this province some years ago. We have improved on it since but it's certainly somet hing that I think is worthy of continua tion. We 've increased our grant to the Agricultural Society to the extent of $1 05, 000 which by the way adds an additional amount to the Austin Museum who has some financial problems and of course the participation of the province in the operating deficit of the Keystone Centre.

So that we have a total of $1 4, 602, 000 in what we call new or improved progran1s. Now the salary increases pursuant to the collective agreement amow 1t to an addi tional 1. 5 million and normal increases in operating expenses are some 684, 000. So in essence what I'm saying here, Mr. Chairman, is that we have tried to bring about a more efficient delivery of our progran1. In order to offset the cost of new and expanded progran1s as well as the normal increases in salaries and expenses, we have continued our search for greater efficiency in the delivery system . I'm proud to say, Mr.

Chairman, that we have succeeded in vastly expanding the scope of our progran1s for the benefit of Manitoba farmers with a slight reduction in staff and that we have been able to offset the cost of the new and expanded programs to a considerable degree through savings in other areas. I think it can be ap preciated that while we have not allowed for the inflationary increase in costs of the ongoing program , that we have maintained virtually the san 1e figures as last year on the ongoing progran1 and we have reduced some staff.

So that we have tightened our ship up very dramatically and hope to continue to do so wherever pos sible and that the only new thrust or maj or new thrust here is in the Beef As surance Progran1. Now my friends opposite may want to indulge in the subject of debate of last year and the year before in that respect and that has to do, Mr. Chairman, with the fact that we have to a large degree changed the role of our field staff. Our field staff for the last few years has been more and more involved in progran1 delivery. I'm talking about the extension people, the ag reps in the province and so on.

So that today the ag rep really spends most of his tin1e on program delivery and a mininmm an1ount of tin1e in general activities which is a complete change from what the position was in 196 9. That is why we have been able to effect maj or new programs and deliver them well without adding to staff for two years in a row. In fa ct last year we didn't have any staff incre ment whatever and this year we have a reduction of I believe three or four.

So that if members opposite wish to indulge in the criticism of the role of our field staff they may do so but I want to point out to them that it is in the interest of ma intaining as efficient an operation as is practical and we think it is practical. We have now had three years of experience in that respect and things are working well. Members opposite should appreciate the fact that while we launched a major pro granl through Beef Incom e Assurance which required a lot of detail work, information, filling out of forms , that we have not provided for any additional staff to the department.

That could only be brought about by using the existing staff in the delivery of program s, and that has to be considered on its merits, Mr. Chairman. If my honourable friends want to insist that we go back to the old ways then I think it would be obvious that we would then be subject to the other criticism, Mr. Chairman, that we have set up these huge programs such as Beef Income Assurance, which necessitates the adding of 20, 30 or 40 staff people.

That is the kind of criticism we would then have that we are allowing the Civil Service to grow indiscrinlinatelyo In fact their Leader had said so the other day, that he was dissatisfied with the fact that the global budget of the Governmen t of Manitoba was some 12 percent up from the Estin1ates of last year or about 6 percent up from actual expenditures and he really preferred that the figures should have been the same and that the efficiency could have dealt with the inflationary question - the increm ental cost question. Well you know we did just that in this department, Mr. Speaker.

We allowed for efficiency to deal with the question of increasing costs. But I warn my friends oppo site now that they will be in contradiction of their Leader if they now tell me that we should not be asking our field staff to deliver this program .

Fe bruary 25, 19 76 337 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'

d) Mr. Chairman, I rec ommend the program to my friends opposite with a great degree of enthusiasm and in the hope that they will be able to support the dramatic change and development of progran1s in .the Department of Agricultu re. · MR. CH AffiMAN: We will now proceed to Res olution S(b) , the Farm Income As surance Plan, $1 4, 200, 000. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to first of all thank the Minister of Agriculture for his introductory comments in regards to what I consider a very important portfolio in the government of this province.

It was interesting to hear his comments and I think he chose to pride himself on something that he is chan1pioning I suppose in his political career , nan1ely his Beef As surance Program. I want to take the Minister back and think back myself. I believe it was in October, early October, when I heard over the news media that the government had decided to embark upon a mas sive program to assist the beef industry in the Province of Manitoba by the Ca binet pas sing an Order-in-Council granting a sum of some $20 million towards this program.

Of course I was no more aware nor were my colleagues of the particulars of this progran1 at that tin1e. Fr om that tin1e on then he decided to hold meetings throughout the province through his ag rep of fices to make the farmers aware of what this program is all about. But before going any fur ther, Mr.

Chairman, on this particular subject I'm con cerned about why the Minister embarked on this program, Did he find himself in a posi tion where he was in such political difficulti es with the farmers of this province because of his policies - and I go back to 19 71, and I think he was referring to when he was • when he introduced a grant system program where farmers could achieve a 20 perce nt grant on the purchase of cows to get into the cattle busine ss. And in those days , Mr.

Speaker, we think back of the tin1es when the grain prod ucer was in some difficulty and he thought, well the way to solve that was to get all the farmers into cattle and get other farmers into the hog business, and we would solve the grain business. But what he didn't reali ze, Mr. Speaker , was that there was a big danger of getting those cattle far mers into the san1e kind of position that the grain farmers found themselve s, and we on this side of the House drew to his attention that that was not the correct thing to embark upon that kind of a policy. As a re sult, Mr.

Speaker, it's alway sknown that when you crea te some incentive in the marketplace - in this particular situation it increased the price of cows, and as a re sult a year or so later those san1e farmers that were talked into going into the cattle business found themselves in somewhat of a fin ancial diff iculty. We went from that program to another progran1 that the Minister embarked upon last year, where he referred to it as the Manitoba Agricultural Cr edit Corporation Stacker Program, and this progran1 , Mr.

Speaker , was the kind of a program where a farmer could borrow up to a maxil11un1 of $5, 000 to put against his calf crop, not knowing when he had to refund that money a year later - it was interest free all right - but he had to refund that money a year later, probably when he sold his calve s, But I'd like to relate a story to the Minister on this particul ar policy, Mr.

Speaker, where a farmer was in Brandon last fall with 25 such calves that he purchased about eight or nine months before that - pardon me, he borrowed $1 00. 00 on those 25 calves about eight or nine months before that - and sold them last fall for $11 3, 00. Mr . Speaker, he had borrowed $1 00. 00 on those 25 cal ves. He had fed them all winter; he had pastured them all sun1mer, and then sold them for a price of $11 3. 00. In other words, he rec eived $1 3. 00 for all his work for the eight months or nine months that he had kept those animals because he had to pay that $100. 00 back to the Minister. Mr.

Speaker, this is the sort of thing that has helped to crea te the kind of dilemma that the cattlemen have found themselves in in the Province of Manitoba. I recall so well , Mr. Speaker , last year, a little bit later than this, how the cow-calf producers were after the Minister to give some assis tance coming from the Interlake country and he refused to do anything for them at that time. And you know, Mr. Speaker, it stemmed from that time on, I think, Mr. Speaker, that because he found hin1s elf in a very

338 February 25, 1976 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. EINARSON cont'd ) ••••• em barrassing position with the cattlemen of this prov ince he decided to embark - and I don't know how he stands with the rest of his collea gues who are about 99 percent coming from the City of Winnipeg, and I agree with him when he says that this was a "must" because many many farmers who were in the cattle business in Manitoba are in real financ ial difficulties. Regardless of philosophy, regardless of philosophy, Mr.

Speaker, those farmers were forced to accept that policy and were glad to be able to get a payment on those calves in order that they could carry on their operations . Well, Mr. Speaker, what has transpired since the Minister made that ann ounce ment about this $20 million that's going to be allocated for the purpose of the Beef Promotion Program ? He says some of us on this side have made some slanderous com ments about the program. I don't know that that's totally correct. My colleagues along with me will , I think, inform hin1 and let hin1 know what they did ••• I know, Mr.

Chairman, some comments that I want to say before we pose some serious questions about this whole matter. But I recall last December, early I believe it was, Mr. Chairman, attending a meeting in my own area, and the Minister was there and, you know, it was about a three hour ses sion. The farmers were very interested and they wanted some answers to the questions in regard to the particul ars of the progran1. I recall one farmer asking, Mr.

Chairman - and the Minister himself admitted this afternoon, that he could probably be the biggest owner of beef in this province in the next couple of years or so - and I recall so well , Mr. Chairm an, one farmer asked the Ministe r, he said: "Mr. Minister, you could probably be the biggest owner of beef in the Province of Manito ba, and what if the marketplace causes you some problems, you ha ven't the market for that beef, what will you do about it ?" Do you know, Mr. Chairman, what his answer was ? "You know, we could make Canada Packers a Crown corporation. " That was his answer, Mr. Chairman.

That was his answ er, Mr. Chairman. --(Interjection)-- MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agricultu re. MR. USKIW : Mr. Speaker, on a Point of Privilege. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order pleas e. MR. USKIW: The Member for Rock Lake knows that that is not the case. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman , I'm sorry I was distracted here. Would the Minister like to repeat the comments he made ? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I believe the Member of Rock Lake is trying to suggest things that were said that were not said.

I suggested to that group of people that anything was pos sible because the governing bodies of national or provincial governments have all of the latitude that is neces sary to deal with any situati on. But that doesn't imply that I indicated to them that I was prepared to nationaliz e Canada Packers. MR. EINARSON: Well , Mr. Chairman, we didn't have a Hansard to refer to when we were at that meeting, so I have to say, Sir, that it will be my word against the Minister 's and we'll jus t have to leave it at that. But I have evidence or witne sses, Mr.

Chairm an; I think there must have been at least 250 farmers at that meeting, and it was a good meeting. But you know, Mr. Chairman, while it looked very attractive and I think, Mr. Chairman, the whole plan as stat ed, and the Minister gives us the information here: 5, 731 beef producers joined Ma nitoba Income Plan which in percentage s accounts for about 65 percent of the com mercial producers, and the total an10unt of money that has been allocated for this program is 18 .7 5 millions of dollars. I believe, Mr.

Chairm an, that would work out to approximately just over $3, 000 per farmer, if you were to average it out. But the maximum amount of money that any one farmer can receive under the plan is approximately $5, 400. 00. And I also want to suggest to the Minister and ask hin1 - I'd like to get his reaction on this thing - he has embarked upon a five-year program. I wouldn't have minded so much if it had been just two yea rs. But he's embarked on a five-year program, Mr.

Chairma n, and because of the length of time that he's embarked on this thing I want to suggest to hin1 that he's taking the Federal Government completely off the hook of their respons ibilities as far as the beef industry in this province is concerned.

February 25, 1976 339 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. EINARSON cont'

d) You know, this is the thing that was amazing to me, Mr. Chairm an. He criticizes the Fe deral Governm ent for their irresponsible attitude towards what they should have , a greater responsibility in assi sting farm ers in the beef industry when they are in a financ ial diffic ulty. But when he has embarked upon a five -year program, I must repeat, and I'd sure like to hear what the Minister has to say about this, that he has let the Fe deral Government completely off the hook insofar as their responsibilit ies are concerned. I don't mind saying, Mr.

Chairman, and I've sa id it to many far mers, I said - I guess it's after li stening to the Minister speak last night they will now understand why I'm suspicious, because I suggest to hin1 this total program , he has thrown out a carrot to these farmers in the first year to lock them in for five years. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that is the motivation behind this program , rather than being, you know, sincere and trying to help them. You know, Mr.

Chairman, this program - and I want to say al so, that I'm given to understand when the Minister announced this program he called in the two offi cia l organizations of the beef industry in Manitoba, nan1ely, the cow-calf operators and the beef producer s, info nned them of the detail s of what this policy was without having had any consultation with them. The thing, Mr.

Chairman, that concerns me is this as well, because I've asked hin1 relate d questions to this effect over the years that we've been in this House , as to what kind of participation did the interes ted parties concerned in the various aspects of his department before he establi shed policy, but I'm given to understand, Mr. Chairman, that those two of ficial organizations - and they are united in their efforts today - they had absolutely no input into devising or even sug gestions to the Minister as to what kind of a policy should be adopted insofar as an Income Ass urance Program is concerned ?

I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that I am critical of the Minister for not allowing this to ha ppen. I am concerned. Because I think, Mr. Chairman, this is taxpayers' money you're using, and all farn 1ers are aware of that, and they're all aware that their destiny is controlled to a degree. Well, Mr. Chairm an, the Minister is shaking his head in the negative, and I sugge st to hin1 the way things are going in this province today, there's no doubt about it, no doubt about it, Mr. Chairman. Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Canadian Cattleme n's Asso ciation in the Coun try Guide early in January - and I want to quote a paragraph here of the Guide Post, and it's got the headline , "Ca ttle" - "Manitoba cattl emen turned thumbs down on their Provincial Governn1ent's Beef Income As surance Program . By early December only about 1, 600 had signed up and the department pers onnel were instructed to begin a massi ve selling cam paign. Lack of proper enthusiasm stems from two sources, nervous about government control and good 19 75 grain crops which removed some financ ial pre ssure from cattlemen.

Meanwhile the Ca nadian Cattleinen's Assoc iation has again stated that prke stabilization subsidized by taxpayers will further distort the cattle market and lead eventually to supply management and governn1ent regulatio ns. The tin1e has come for cattle producers to choose between a market oriented or a government dominated industry, says CCA. The assoc iation urges producers to go for the open market option and work as part of a North America n industry. " MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please. The hour of 4:30 having arrived, it is now Private Member s' Hour. Comm ittee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, your Com mittee of Supply wishes to report progress and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan) : Mr. Speaker , I beg to move, sec onded by the Honourable Member for Point Douglas, that the Report of the Committee be recei ved. MOTION pres ented and carried.

340 February 25, 19 76 PRIVATE MEMBERS ' HOUR - RESOLUTION NO. 1 MR. SPEAKER: The first item is Res olution No . 1. The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR . ENNS: Mr . Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Member from Brandon West, that

WHEREAS the railway lines have played a ma jor role in the development and growth of the Province of Manitoba; AND

WHEREAS future developments in the agricultural sector will continue to rely heavily on these services ; AND

WHEREAS the planning development of satellite communiti es and the general movement of population to rural Manitoba will require new and innovative transportation services (commuter passenger services); AND

WHEREAS the legitimate concern regarding energy conservation, energy cost, call for imaginative and new policies re all phases of transportation; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Manitoba Government consider the advisability of acquiring all abandoned railway lines and right-of-way as Crown land to ensure the maximum flexibility in the planning of future transportation requiremen ts . MOTION pres ented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . Well, Mr .

Speaker, I expected and I noted on the first or second day where this resolution appeared on the Order Paper the odd smile on membe rs ' faces opposite, that read into this resolution as a departure, I suppose, in their narrow perspective of a Conservative's capability of envisioning the needs of tomorrow and read into the final resolve some attempt or some approach that seemed to indicate a belief in the kind of philosophy that they often espouse in this Hous e. Mr. Speaker, that doesn't bother me at all.

I believe that the Conservative Party has over the years, and inclu des the 100 years that the honourable members opposite often like to draw attention to, the preparedness and the willingness to look into the future to have imagination and to consider those kind of problems that the future holds for us . I need not delve into the many examples that I could cite. Th ey're well entrenched in the history of the developmen t of this province and in the history of the development of this country. Mr.

Speaker, I would also like to make it very clear, very clear at the outset in discussi on of this resolution that there should not be any attempt made to read into this resolution any position in support of railway line abandonmen t . In fact, Mr . Speaker, I would suggest and I would hope that as other members take the floor to de bate this resolution it'll become very clear that in many instances it calls for, indeed provides for, continued use of railway facilities that are now either in a state of aban donment or that are being discussed as possibly entering into that state.

So I just want to make that position known very clear, that this is not a resolution holding any brief for the abandonment of railway lines • I know it is a matter of current study and concern right across this country by the Hall Commission right now and this resolution in no way interferes with or infringes on this jurisdiction of that committ ee's responsibilities in studying the problems as they see them . One must recognize that they see them som ewhat more in the narrower con fines of the handling and the movement of grain. But, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that several things have happened in the last number of years that should guide us or should tell us to start talking about future kinds of transportation requirements that our people in this province will require. That's part of the urgency of the debate and I think "urgency" is a proper word to use . It is, of course, the unbelievable escalation of the energy costs and crises that have loomed so large before us that I think call upon us as law mak ers, as legislators, to start to examine .

Of course I'd like to believe, Sir, that it is in the presentation of private resolutions or resolutions in this Chamber that ideas are tossed about that eventually find favour or through the contribution of many members find their way into the development of overall policy. Mr . Speaker, I don't put this proposal forward as a new and novel proposal . I first heard of it at the Prairie Economic Conference held not so many years ago - two

February 25 , 1976 3.41 RESO LUTION NO . 1 (MR. ENNS cont'd) ••••. years ago I believe it was , in Calgary - it was presented at that time by the Alberta Department of Industry and Commerce, the Deputy Minister, I believe, whose name was Mr. Peacock. We have since heard of it .- -(Interjection)-- The Ministe r. Pardon me, I accept that correction. It has cropped up on several occasions as recently as the already referred to Hall Committee hearings on railway problems in grain movement. Other members will deal with that aspect of it more ,precisely.

The novel idea of that the railway beds should indeed receive the same kind of consideration and support that we ha ve, for a long time accepted as natural, that we give to our highway infrastructure; that we give to our airports and the air services; that we give to our marine services .

We have long accepted the responsibility - the people that is, through Crown and through public support - the building of roads, the building of air ports, the maintenance of Department of Transport officials manning our airports, the Harbour Commission's responsibility with respect to the delivery of freight and passen gers via the seas o So, Mr . Speaker, I only set that out that it is not an original or a novel idea that this should be considered . But that's one aspect of it that again I will leave perhaps for others to delve in more fully. What concerns me, Mr.

Speaker, is safeguarding the public good in terms of these transportation corridors that now exist. Mr . Speaker, again I'm not suggesting that every railway line or every abandoned line would meet that category. But certainly where there is a potential for future use in some of the areas that I will shortly mention.

I believe that there is a responsibility on governments to look at these lines and these right-of-ways as to whether or not in the long term public good, as we sort out over the next decade the kind of new and innovative transportation policies that will have to be developed resulting from several factors, these right-of-ways , now in block, now in the hands of either the CPR Corporation or presently already in the public hands through the CNR right-of-ways should be preserved.

Indeed there should be an option held open to the people , to the public for potential future use as transportation corridors of one kind or another. Mr . Speaker, I believe nobody would argue that in entering into any public projects these days, the ass embly of land is often as expensive as the project its elf.

If we think about the cost of acquiring the right-or-way for the development of better high way facilities, of cloverleaf facilities for the movement of transportation in around the city, of the finding suitable lands for airport locations - I could mention the cost involved in the Mirabelle projects to name one - it seems to me, Mr .

Speak er, that we would be doing a disser vice to future Manitobans and future taxpayers of this province if we at least did not express some interest in reserving these right-of-ways that are now ass embled and often not in use, not in full use or in contemplation of being in disuse entirely as a result of the railway line abandonment talks :;.nd studies are going about. We should not forego our future options on this ass embled land too lightly. Mr . Speaker, just in a very brief form the historic development of the railways is of course known to all of us .

It developed at the time with the rapid influx of people into communities and settlements, into our provinces at a time when the road structure was primitive, minimal cars were available or no cars were available and the railway offered the fastest and the most immediate way of moving goods, people and services into and across the width and breadth of this province. With the hard work and the development of our country and of our province and a growing state of affluence, came good roads . Mr .

Speaker, I hate to become partisan here but this did happen even in the course of the hundred years that my honourable friends often like to refer to that were the forgotten years prior to June of 1969 . But the roads were built; the roads were developed. The general affluence in the province was such that people found it more convenient to drive their private automobiles on these new and improved roads and, Mr .

Speaker, the availability of a relatively cheap form of energy, our gasoline prices notoriously - I think particularly as we view back just a few years ago, what they were as to what they are now and what they well may be . Indeed if we believe the Honourable Member from Wellington, I believe, in his contribution to the Throne Speech, he already drew the scenario for us where the last car will fade into the sunset and will no longer be seen again . Well then, Mr . Speaker, I believe that that may not quite happen but he may not be entirely wrong as to the necessi ty for vastly and drastically different modes

342 February 25, 1976 RESOLUTION N O. 1 (MR. ENNS cont'd) .•••• of transportation that will come upon us perhaps much sooner than we think. Now, Mr . Speaker, that very briefly outlines what is known as the historic development of transportation in this province . We have now come today to where we have the roads and we have the cars and we have the railways . We have found over the past decade the railways being used less and less for one reason or another.

In many instances bad railway policy; in many instances though simply preference on the part of the people to drive their private auto mobiles as long as it was attractive energy wise, cost wi se, for them to do so . Well, Mr . Speaker, what about the future? I think it's the future really that this res olution addresses itself to. Mr .

Speaker, I want to leave to other colleagues the suggestions that have, some of the very innovative suggestions that have been coming forth having to do with the continued importance, as this res olution reads, that these railway lines will have in the future development in the agricultural sector . Mr .

Speaker, it is quite conceivable that if, with the movement toward heavier steel and the larger more efficient rai lway cars for the transportation of larger unit trains of grain into our export position or into our terminals, that the efficiency and the aspect of maintaining some of the smaller spur lines may well disappear.

But that is not to say, Sir, that municipalities or a co-operative group of farmers wouldn't wish to band together with some kind of assi stance or help that is now currently being pres ented to the railways - and I would suggest it could be a great deal less - to still find a very important use for some of these lines for the continued benefit of those communities in terms of the move ment of goods and ser vices in the agricultural sector . But, Mr .

Speaker, I would particularly address myself to what is happening in terms of the out migration, if you want to call it that, from the City of Winnipeg of many people who are within the periphery of this urban area finding their places to live and commuting daily back into the city for their vocations and for their jobs . Now, Mr . Speaker, I suppose the big planners, you know, may have different thoughts on this sub ject .

I think we have often decried the problem that we have in Manitoba that for quirks of geography or what-have-you that so many of our Manitobans have chosen to live in this one urban area and that we haven't spread out our growth of urban centres more pro portionately. I believe it would be a benefit, you know, to the Province of Manitoba if the City of Brandon, the City of Portage, the City of Dauphin took and shared more proportionately in the development of our urban growth and our urban problems . It would certainly relieve some of the pressures that the City of Winnipeg now face . But, Mr .

Speaker, the facts of the matter are there . The City of Winnipeg exists . There is a demand for people that have the ability and want the choice of moving into a country or rural setting and they are doing so . I speak of a very personal experi ence in my own area . We know that we are actively talking about and planning the development of satellite communities . Now certainly in many instances these communities are not going to be self- sustaining in terms of jo bs and vocations .

These are people whether we talk about a proposed satellite community in Selkirk, or the people proposed communities els ewhere - that are going to be commuting in most instances back and forth to the city of Winnipeg even without that kind of planning. The situation as it now exists, if you travel around the ring of Winnipeg it's amazing the percentage of people that are commuting on a daily basis . Fifty to sixty percent of the people in my community at Woodlands commute daily to work here in the City of Winnipeg.

We have a situation where we have a railw ay line running rig ht along No . 6 Highway through the heart of every one of these communities : Grosse Isle, Warren, Woodlands, St. Francois, St. Laurent . Now up to as far as the Community of St. Laurent and even beyond we have daily commuters coming into Winnipeg. Mr . Speaker, up to now on forty or fifty cent gasoline it was not inducive to encourage people to leave the automobile in their local communities and commute.

I would also say that under our pres ent structure of our railways it is highly questionable whether they will ever have the flexibility to offer the kind of rail passenger service, commuter service that would be required , that would be acc eptable to the people . For reasons that I don't care to go into right now our railways have decided for a long time that the movement of grain or coal or steel is more preferable than worrying about the movement of people . Now,

February 25, 197.6 .343 RESOLUTI ON NO . 1 (MR. ENNS cont 'd) .Mr. Speaker, that may well be the case . But I cite the example of the railway that is running up No . .6 Highway iiJ.to the Interlake; It has at most a train a wee k. It has at most one source of goods that is moving up that train which is limestone from Gypsumville . Even that, Sir, a few years ago stopped running on the tracks and was running on the trucks and still is although to a les�:�er degree . Mr. Speaker, that option may not be open to the trucker all that much longer.

With every event of increase in the price of energy, the pressure for alternative modes of transpor tation are upon us . Now, Mr. Speaker, I only throw in the resolution for this reason; that I believe that a forward looking government should be looking at safeguarding these rights-of-way to afford us time to search out some of the innovative ways that we could be meeting these problems . These problems are growing; they are not diminishing . The need for conservation of energy is growing every day. Th e cost to individuals for using the current methods of transportation is becoming more costly every day. Mr .

Speaker, I would think it would be a dereliction of our responsibility if this government didn't con· · sider the advisability of taking this resolution serious ly . It is not a resolution that calls for action tomorrow; it's a resolution that calls for the sitting down with other centres that have encountered similar problems . It is a resolution that calls for this government to take some kind of stock of what in fact is the situation with already abandoned railway right-of-ways and having some inventory of that situation. Mr .

Speaker, it is a question of this government considering fully the advis ability of how we meet, particularly the commuting needs, the development of fast entry and exit out of this large urban centre for those people who choose to live that way, which are growing in numbers every year. Mr . Speaker, I commend the resolution to the House for consideration . It would be my hope that a number of members would want to participate in the resolution. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Labour. MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, may I first of all indicate to my honourable friend the Member for Lakeside that I, among others in this Assembly, appreciate the introduction of his resolution because it gives us an opportunity of considering the importance of the provision of rail services not only in Manitoba but across the whole b.-oad Dominion of Canada. So I say to my honourable friend we will not lightly - (Interjection)--! beg your pardon? -( Interjec tion)-- ! don't know if it is any longer as a result of that four or fiv e million dollar investment that was made over last weekend.

I'm sure that the Treasurer of the Province of Manitoba would have loved to have had that contribution made to our coffers rather than the suggestion that I should make a ten dollar contribution to the Conser vative Party. Now there is a little bit of a diff erence I would suggest . But apart from the interruption of the acting up Leader of the Co nserva tive Party I do want to get back to what I was attempting to say in commendation to one of his colleagues for the introduction of this resolution . It is a matter that I over my life have been connected with in many respects .

Not only as a member of the railroading frate rnity but also one that in the course of that involvement has had an opportunity of taking a very close look at the history of railroad ing in Canada and in particular of course so far as Manitoba is concerned . I do find some fault however, and I'm sure my honourable friend would expect me to find some fault with the content of his resolution and I'll C!Jme to that in a moment. I liked his reference to the railway that rlh'lS along almost parallel to highway No . 6.

I had an opportunity in the fa ll of last year to travel on a very distinguished appearing railroad called the Prairie Dog Special and went up to Grosse Isle and I was glad that for the first time in a little while there was passenger service on that line . I want to compliment a group of ex-railroaders and others who are involved in trying to perpetuate in some areas in Manitoba passenger service of one way or another, and I have a picture, Mr . Speaker, it was taken up at Grosse Isle with the Prairie -Dog Special.

Now my honourable friend in his resolution indicates that the railways have played a major role in the development of the Province of Manitoba, and he suggests that future developments in the agriculture sector will continue to rely heavily on these services . I agree with him most heartily that we in this prairie province should use

344 February 25, 1976 RESOLUTION NO. 1 (MR. PAULLEY cont 'd) .•••• every effort available to try and impress upon the down easterners that we are different here, at least in the area of transportation and the move· ment of heavy commodities such as grain and steel, than they may be in the short run requirements of Eastern Canada.

And I'm sure that my honourable friend the Mem ber for Lakeside would not dispute that general approach and I might say that while I had the honour of being the Leader of the former CCF Party, I had consultations with the then government in their pres entation to the Ferguson Commiss ion on Railw ays, and since then goodness knows how many com missio ns we 've had in Canada dealing with this important matter of rail transportation, the matter of the Crows Nest Pass, and the likes .

And I'm sure that my honourable friend will join with the present Minister responsi ble, my colleague the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce, in making joint representa tions on behalf of the people of Manitoba to see that as much as possible that these services are contiimed to be provided for . Then my honourable friend in his resolution goes on to say that, ''Whereas the planning development of satellite communit ies and the general movement of population to rural Manitoba will require new innovated transportation services, commuter passenger services" - it's a nice statement .

But is it a realistic statement in view of the fact that my colleague the Minister of Agriculture, and also the agricultural repres entatives here in the Assembly are attempting to introduce programs to stay at home insofar as the agricultural industry is concerned so that the development of the agricultural products would be extended . But I leave that for the time being. We're considering it now in the Estima tes of the--(Interj ection) -- Yes I think it would be a darngood thing quite frankly, Mr .

Speaker, if we go back to the basic philosophy of a former colleague of mine had in this House - and I'm referring to Morris Gray - wh o sat with me when there were only five of us in this House and he suggested a real truly applicable back to the land mo ve ment where we city slickers got out there and found out how the other half of the world existed and so that we could make a greater contribution to the well-being .

And many of them are doing it but they're only doing it now, not to make a contribution, may I suggest in all due respect to them , to the agriculture industry in Manitoba but to try and evade paying taxes for services that they have to use in the urban areas. Now then my h:mourable friend then goes on to consider the, ''Whereas a legit imate concern regarding energy conservation, energy cost, called for imaginative new policies to all phases of transportation." There 's no argument at all. That is a good statement . But it is really, Mr .

Speaker, in the resolved portion of the resolution that I take grave exception to . And why do I take grave exception, Mr . Speaker? It's be cause there is im plied, as I interpet the resolution, imp lied that we in Manitoba at Manitoba taxpaye rs' and ratepayers ' expense should take over what is abandoned by rail ways as the result of the application of federal policy.

I'm somewhat surprised at my honourable friend making a motion accordingly: "R esolved that the Manitoba Government consider the advisability of acquiring all abandoned railway lands and right of way as Cr own land to ensure the maximum flexibility in the planning of future transportation requirements . " Mr . Speaker, I say to you is there not an obligation on the Canadian Pacific Railway, particularly, to return to the people of Canada, and in particular to the people of Manitoba, the benefits that have been theirs since John A.

Macdonald and others entered into an agreement giving to the Canadian Pacific Railway vast extents of land. Almost, as my honourable colleague from Churchill says, the whole of the west in order -- (Interjection) -- yes the CN too, of course . I don't differentiate between the Canadian National Railway, who was my employer, and the CPR, because in my opinion generally speaking the management of the CNR historically has been no different than that of pri vate industry and the CPR. A MEMBER: The people own it, eh ? MR.

PAULLEY: The people own it through such policies as is being suggested now by the Mem ber for Lakeside that we should take over all the debris, all the un economic lines under public ownership . That is what this means , Mr . Speaker. I suggest to the Honourable Mem ber of Lakeside that it is implied in this resolution that the taxpayer of Manitoba should take over what the CPR, and the CNR, if you want to

Febr uary 25, 1976 345 RESOLUTION NO . 1 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) •... ;include them , no longer require for their operation. Now, Mr . Speaker, I'm asked if I read the resol ution. I would answer to my honourable friends opposite, yes I read the res olution and I understand it, -but I doubt very much whether the members of the Conservative Party have even considered .the input and the significance of the res olution that they are now sponsoring and propos ing because it is only a continuation of the policies of John A.

Macdonald many years ago in the. give away to private enterprise and an opportunity for them to gain the benefit at taxpayer expense. -- (Interjections)- - MR. SPEAKER: Order plea se . Order pleas e. MR. PAULLEY: Of cours e, Mr . Speaker, I'm used to in this House to attempt ing to get the rabble to keep qui et so that I may im press upon them the pearls of wisdom which is really alien to the ir thinking . And that is historic . But the fact of the matter is whether my honourable friends opposite treat this as a jo

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-14
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 14.pdf
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