VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. TUESDAY, MAY 1, 1984 NO. 28

May 1, 1984 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Tape 1139 EC ~ 1 Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The han. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question or two to the Minister responsible for Energy. I notice,again, there are ten or a dozen ministers missing today and the Premier is missing, no leadership on the other side, she is adrift over there, Mr. Speaker. No leadership! No wonder the House is in such a chaotic condition. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the Premier's blustering over the past several years has been based on a false premise and a misguided assumption that the next federal government will be Tory. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Now the latest Gallup poll clearly shows that this is not likely to happen as the Premier had hoped. Therefore, instead of keeping all his offshore eggs in one basket, would it not be more sensible, would it not make more sense, for the Premier and the admini­ stration there opposite to swallow their pride and their ego and negotiate an agreement now with the federal Minister of Energy (Mr. Chretienl? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, after all that, the han. gentleman cannot voice a question, he has to read it! 3017

May 1, 1984 Tape ll39 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: I wonder who \.;rites the hon. gentleman's questions? I mean, on the lead question in Question Period, he has to get up and slavishly read the question. Mr. Speaker, '"e will have to wait; the only poll that counts is the election. But I will say, if that poll has any significance -and that poll has no relevance to us because ,.,e are a ;;-rovincial Legislature -but if it has any significance at all, I suppose really what it means is that the people of Canada really .,,ant a .;hange from the present administration, a 3018

May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1140 MJ - 1 MR. MARSHALL: change from the people who have for years come into the House of Cornmdms with roses on?ike that particular gentleman who came in with roses in his lapel. So if there is any change it can only be attributed to the fact that people think that Mr. Turner might ~ake the leadership and that he will bring a change from the present administration. I wonder what the han. gentlemen then are going to do? It means the death knell for Mr. Chretien, it means the death knell for Mr. Lalonde, it means the death knell for Mr. Trudeau and it means the death knell, Jl.~r.

Speaker, for all of the han. gentlemen there opposite who have slavishly and la?dogishly supported them over the years. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) MR. NEARY: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, now there is a statement of policy from the han. gentleman from the administration. The han. gentleman is not prepared to accept the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the political confrontations of the past several years by the administration, of which he is a member, have wreaked havoc on b.he people of this Province, have created all kinds of pain and suffering to the people of this Province.

Would it not be better for the han. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, to stop his rude and nasty remarks and his personal affcrmt to the members of the Opposition and act like a decent, honourable gentleman and a decent Newfoundland and take the Chretien proposal, the package that is on the table now for joint development and revenue sharing 1 etc. 1 and let that form the basis of a new round of negotiations with the Government of Canada to carry out the mandate that they were given on April 6, 1982 to negotiate an offshore agreement? Would it not be better for the han. gentleman 3019

May "l, 1984 Tape No . 1140 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: to stop these rude and nasty and insulting rema rks, these low per sonal attacks on the members of the Opp osi tion , swallow his ego and his pride, pick up the telephone, call Mr. ~h retien, or call the Prime ~tinister for that matter : and sa y, 'Look, let us take the pa cka ge that is on the table and use that as the basis for a new round of negotiations? No w, ~tr. Speaker, would that not be a worthwhile thing for the administration there opposite to do and thereby fulfil l the mandate that they 3020

May 1, 1984 Tape 1141 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: were given on April 6, 1982 to negotiate an offshore agreement and stop the suffering and the misery and the havoc and the way that they have massacred the Newfoundland economy, stop all of that,Mr. Speaker, and get back to the bargaining table? Would that not be the honourable and sensible thing for the administration to do? MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, no wonder only half of the Opposition is there when you have the Question Period led by the Leader.

You know,he is asking the same questions. He wants us to take the package that is on the table. Now what does he mean? What package is on the table? ~rr. Chretien's package that is on the table. What Mr. Chretien's package which is on the table? It is a Nova Scotian agreement, Mr. Speaker, which would give to Nova Scotia a small to negligible benefit. So does he want this Province to take a small or negligible benefit? Does he wish us, Mr.

Speaker, to be taken in by this business of 110 per cent of fiscal capacity, which is just going to mean that our equalization payments are going to be substituted for by the revenues derived from the resources we ~ht into Confederation with us? Mr. Speaker, does he wish us to settle the offshore just merelY. for $30 millions or $40 millions more than we are getting this year? Is this the height of h~s ambition? Does he wish us, Mr. Speaker, to accept an agreement that Mr.

Chretien puts on the table where there is total federal control over the development,where the federal government alone will decide whether it< is concrete platforms or floating platforms ., where the rules and regulations will be federal legislation, 3021

May 1, 1984 Tape 1141 PK - 2 MR . MARSHALL: where the federal minister will have the ultimate to decide?: Is this what he means by a new pac kage? He says why do we not tak e the packag e that is on the table? I say unequ ivocally no, we will not take a package of that nature that is on the table. What has been put on the table and what w~J agreed is already kno\~, Mr . Speaker - \~atwa s agreed, that is, before Mr . Chretien had the rug pulled out from underneath his fe et by Mr. Lalonde and Mr. Trudeau. MR . NEARY : MR. SPEAKER (Ru ssell ) : MR. NEARY: Mr. speaker. The hon . Leader of the Opposition.

Sir, the hon. gentleman bas misrepresented what I asked . I suggested to the hon. ge ntle~an,in the form of a question, would it not be better , instead of further inflicting pain and suffering and unemployment and high taxes , and the high cost of living and the high cost of electricity rates on the people of this Province, and lowering of health services in the Province, ;ick people unable to get in hospitals, would ~t not ~e lette~ 3022

Hay 1, 1984 Tape No. 1142 SD - 1 ~R. NEARY: for the hon. gentleman to pick up the phone and say to Mr. Chretien or to the Prime Minister, 'Let us take the package that is on the table as a basis for negotiation•? Mr. Speaker, that is why I asked the question I put to the hon. gentleman. I did not ask the hon. gentleman to accept the ~ackage.

Stop the game playing, stop the political rhetoric, do the honourable thing that a decent , honourable Newfoundlander should do and carry out the promise they made in the April 6 general election and get back to the bargaining table, but use that package as a basis for further negotiations. Now would that not be an honourable and decent thing for the hon. gentleman to do or does he have any decency in his bones, in his viens at all? ~R. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. President of the Council . . MR. HARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, all I can say is how are the high electricity rates, the high cost of living and the high cost of services going to alleviated at all by an agreement which brings some small to negligible benefit to the people of this Province? The hon. gentleman \'rants to use that as a basis of negotiation. He \¥ants us to negotiate, Mr. Speaker, from the basis of nothing. He wants us to negotiate from a minus quanity,which \¥e will not do.

The fact of the matter is we had negotiated with the present administration in Ottawa, we had negotiated out a package and it was a package \'lhich at the . time was acceptable 1 and it was not the one that the hon. gentleman urges us to accept. '!'he hon. gentleman would push us into an agreement for the sake of getting an agreement, \'lhich is not going to realize any long- lasting benefits · for this Province and thls government is not going to do it. .A.s for the pain and suffering he alleges fro!ll time to time 1 he is a great one , ,.,i th certain 3023

May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1142 SD - 2 MR. ~~HALL : other peop le who trumpet the federa l Liberal cause in this Provin ce,to get up and atte mpt to say that there are no benefits that have been realized by ~~s Provine~ from the offshore activity that is out there . NO\., if the hon . gentleman wants to ask questi ons, '"hY does he not ask some of substance and address himself to a report that ,.,as recently put out ,.,hich showed t."lat, even when ,.,e did not have an agr eemen t 1 ,.,e had more employment here in t!'}e offshore than they did in Nova Scotia , we had more spinoff industries and we had oenefits from the offshore operations. ~R. NEARY : Mr . Speaker . 3024

May l, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape 1143 NM - l The han. Leader of ·. Do I gather from the han. gentleman that this is what he is saying, that they intend to continue their game playing and their political rhetoric after the next federal election, that they are refusing to deal with any other governnent in ottawa except a Tory government? Is that what the han. gentleman is saying?

And is the han. gentleman also saying this, because this is the message that I get for reading between the lines of what the han. gentleman is saying,that if through some fluke there should be a Tory Government in Ottawa, that they will sign any kind of an agreement with a Tory government but they will not negotiate with a Liberal government, and then they will hail the Tory government as the biggest event to happen since Confederation? Now is that what the han. gentleman is saying, Mr. Speaker?

And then is the hon. gentleman saying this, that after sianinq that aqreement, which will be hailed as the biggest event since Confederation, it will be the same deal as they could have gotten ten years ago? Now that is what I am reading into what the han. gentleman is saying. MR. SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I could not care less what the han. gentleman reads into what I am saying. I did not know the han. gentleman was able to read any­ thing other than that which was prepared for him to ask questions. 3025

May 1, 1984 Tape 1143 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, look,we ~ade it plain and we make it plain now that we are prepared to deal with any government - Tory Government Liberal government, NDP government, Social Credit government, New Labrador Party, you name it; we would , even be prepared to deal with the hon. gentleman there opposite and that is really saying something- any group, Mr.

Speaker, that is prepared to give justice and equity to the people of Newfoundland and the Province of Newfoundland from that resource; any group that is prepared to recognize the fact that this resource was brought into Confederation by the people of Newfoundland and they are entitled to a measure of justice and equity for it and prepared to see that resource developed for Newfoundland and for Canada as a whole.

The only way that we can perceive that the'present government in Ottawa wishes to proceed is to proceed on the basis of the federal government deriving all of the benefits and taking all the controls,and that we will never accept, Mr. Speaker. And if the han. gentleman thinks that he is playing a game, well that is a game we are proud to play. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Justice. He may recall that before Easter I asked him some questions about the Chief of Police. I wonder if he could bring us up-to-date?

Is there any.thing new that he can report to the House with respect to the situation with Chief Roche of the Constabulary? 3026

May 1,1984 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): MR.OTTENHEIMER: Tape No. 1144 ah-1 The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman will recall,when he did ask the question previously,I indicated at the time that Chief or Police Roche was then on sick leave,and that one of the two deputy chiefs - Deputy Chief Coady and pepu~ y Chief Randell - Mr. Randell, the senior deputy chief, the one who has been with the constabulary the longer period of time,was the officer in charge during this period.

I believe I indicated at the time also that I would certainly be in a position no later than May 15 to give a reply in terms of the Chief's health and his ability to return , etc. And the position is essentially the same, Certainly by no later than May 15, conceivably before, but certainly no later than the middle of this month I would·be in that position. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.ROBERTS: I thank the minister and, of course, we will await the statement. I wonder if he would confirm for us that the Cabinet have agreed upon the retirement package to be offered to Chief Roche?

MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, if the Chief were unable to return to work for reasons of illness, obviously there would be an entitlement to retirement. But at the present time that is a possibility,obviously, but it is not a definitive matter because we do not know definitively what the Chief's health position is and when that is know as a fact 1which I would certainly expect to know by no later than the middle of May 1then I will inform the House. 3027

May 1,1984 Tape No . 1144 ah -2 MR.SPEAKER (Ru ssel l) : The bon . member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.ROBERTS: Mr . Speaker, I appreciate that the minister, as t-7i th all of us, does not know and I would not expect him to know. He did not answer my question but I wil~ let that stand on the reco rd. I wonder if the minister could assure the House that any arrangements ~~at are made for the retirement of the Chief will be those to which he is entitled under statute or under the policy that existed, shall we say, as of January l, 1984?

In other words, can he assure that there will be no special arrangements made either detrimental to the Chief or beneficial to him? I mean, I want to be neutral,down the middle . Can the minister assure us that,if it becomes necessary for the Chief of Police to retire,that whatever arrangements are made will be those to which he is entitled either under statute , which is straightfonTard, or under the policy that was in effect on,say, Ja nuary 1,1984? 3028

May 1, 1984, Tape 1145, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell} : The hon.the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, any agreement or any entitlement to pensions certainly would obviously have to be fair to the Chief and fair in general, fair to the recipient, and would have to be consistent with statutes and policy. Certainly, if there is an earlyretirement, I will certainly inform the House of the conditions of the retirement and any pension rights and other things which accrue from it. MR. ROBERTS: I vlill answer the question. Do you want to tr y it again? No? Let it stand. MR. SPEAKER: the Opposition.

MR. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of Mr. Speaker, there are so many urgent and pressing matters involving the fishery, and the Premier's office, could the hon. gentleman tell us when we are going to get some of the ministers back in the House - MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: Some of the important ones. - some of the important ministers, so we can ask some questions? Who is the acting Minister of Health? Who is the acting Minister of Fisheries? Well, Mr. Speaker, in the absence of these ministers and the Premier, I will have to direct a question to the Minister of Development(Mr.

Windsor) in connection with the Convention Centre for Newfoundland. Could the han. gentleman tell the House if the Convention Centre will form a part of the ARDA agreement that will be signed in the next day or so, as soon as the fog lifts and the ministers can get into Newfoundland, Mr. Johnson can arrive, and Mr. Rompkey, to pour literally millions of federal dollars into this Province, compared to a paltry sum by the provincial government? Could the hon. gentleman tell us the status now of the convention Centre? 3029

May 1, 1984, Tape 1145, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Development. MR. WINDSOR: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, I would have thought that the hon. gentlemen opposite, since they are sporting flowers here indicating their great connection with the federal Liberals in Ottawa 1would have known the answer to that question. Because I have been trying to find out from the federal government in Ottawa exactly what they propose to do with the Convention Centre.

A proposal have been on the table, before them now for many months, we have not had as much as a courtesy of a formal response from them, there is total inaction. We have some indications that perhaps the federal government is not interested in funding the Convention Centre, but we cannot get a 'yes' or a 'no'. Perhaps the hon. gentlemen would send some flowers up to Ottawa and they will get a response. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR . NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Perhaps the hon. gentleman will give us, if he has put forward a proposal, a few details of that proposal that they have put forward. Could the hon. gentleman tell the House 3030

May 1, 1984 Tape 1146 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: if the Convention Centre is to be built in St. John's or are other areas of the Province,such as Corner Brook, being considered for a Convention Centre? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, sor:te eight nonths ago I tabled the results of our study in this House as to exactly what was proposed and what was recommended for a Convention Centre and we have been pursuing that avenue ever since then.

I am amazed that the hon. gentle­ man,in eight months, has not bothered to read that and find out that our proposal is indeed to build a Convention Centre in St. John's and that the proposal which the developer had put forward is in Ottawa 1 and is being con­ sidered, hopefully, by Ottawa. We are awaiting that response. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, a further supple- mentary. Could the hon. gentleman indicate to the House what proposal has been put forward to the Government of Canada?

Which one has gotten the preferential treatment from the Province? Would the hon. gentleman indicate that? Is it the one opposite City Hall, a hotel convention centre, or is it the proposal down at the Newfoundland Hotel, or is it the Battery Motel? What is the proposal? Could the hon. gentleman pinpoint it and tell the House, for instance, is it the Ryan/Dobbin proposal that is being put forward to the Government of Canada? What proposal is it? 3031

May 1, 1984 Tape 1146 EC - 2 MR . SPEAKER (Ru sse ll): The hon . the Minister of Development . MR. WINDSOR : Mr . Speaker, neither proposal has been given preferential treatment . There has been one proposal \o~hich was deemed by both the Province and t~e City to be the most favourable proposal that had been put fo~v.ard of four very excellent proposals, which \.,.ere considered in detail .

That proposal has been supported by the Province . ~1e have oeen negotiating with the developer, and the developer, in turn, has been talking with the federal government and, as already indi ­ cat ed in respon se to an earlier quest io n, has submitted a formal propos al to Otta\.,.a, with our support . We are hope ful that we will get an ans\11er on that . Once we have finalized negotiations with the develop er, and if this developer is not successful, then we may well have to look at one of the other proposals and try to negotiate an agreement there .

Once all that is in pl ac e, I will be only to happy to give full details, Mr. Speaker. MR . ROBERTS : Mr . Speaker . 3032

May 'l, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS : Tape No. 114 7 MJ - 1 The hon. the member for the Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins),if I could engage his attention briefly. Whenever the minister is ready,the House is waiting. DR. COLLINS: Go ahead. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I apologize for interrupting the minister,but it is Question Period and I do not feel that I am entirely out of place in asking him a question, I am sure he will want to answer it.

It grows out of the Ministerial Statement vhlch he made in the House late in March in which he announced that the government,in response to the recommendation of the Orsborn Commission,had exempted from - what is it called now? - had exempted from RST- the retail sales tax, the Tory 12 per cent- had exempted a number of items used by people who need continuing care and he listed them and that is a welcome move indeed.

I wonder if the minister could tell us whether he proposes, or whether the government propose, to exempt as well the hospitals who use this and other equipment 1 because,of course, hospitals are charged SSA on any purchases they make in conne~tion with their operations? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, that question has arisen quite a number of times and,on the face of it, on the sur~ace it would seem to be a logical and sensible thing to do and there probably would not be any particular problem if one was limiting the exemption to,shall we say,rather exotic or esoteric equipment like a CAT Scanner or whatever. ~ut as members know,of course 1the hospitals use all sorts of things; they use dish mops and they use buckets and they use cleaning soap and they use linen and they use trolleys 3033

May 1, 1984 Tape No . 1147 l1J - 2 DR . COLLINS: and they use sppons and knives and forks and so on and so forth , a \>Thole host of things which are in common use by the general population and accordingly it is very difficult to frame an exemption in a regul ato ry or a st atutory way that ~"ould make it possible to administer the thing t'lithout a tremendous amount of leakage . In other words, if you exempted , say, cleaning mops forhospitals 1how does one limit that to ho spitals in an efficient and ongoing and administratively affective way?

So for that very reason we have elected not,up to now,to give a blanket exemption in ho spitals . Now that is not to say that if groups wish to give a particular piece of equipment to a ho sp ital that there is not a way 303 4

May 1, 1984 Tape 1148 PK - 1 DR. eOLLINS: that can be found so that grou~, that group of citizens 1 or whatever, that they are no~ as well as being landed with the task of raising the amount of money to buy the equipment that tl~y are not also landed with the task of raising the amounts of the retail sales tax on that equipment. But there are ways around that and we have used that route in the past rather than writing some sort of exemption into the regulations attached to the Retail Sales Tax Act. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Strait of Belle. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. member for the Thank you, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the minister a couple of supplementary questions which grew out of his answer? But let me deal first with the point which he made at the end of his answer which 1 as I understood it,was this; that if a group, a ladies'auxillary, perhaps 1is going to make a donation to one of the hospitals in the Province,and raises money publicly for this,that there is some process whereby they can be exempted from the necessity of having to pay sales tax on the item which they are proposing to purchase to give to the hospital. The minister is nodding yes, but I want to be sure.

Do I understand him correctly? Could the minister tell us how to go about this? Because I know of a number of these groups. Is this to be an ad hoc exemption process? Is application to be made to the minister? What are the guidelines? Who is to decide? Could he perhaps expand on that because I am sure that there are many groups who will be most interested in it. It is a new departure, as I think he will agree. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. 3035

May 1, 19 84 Ta pe 11 48 PK - 2 DR . COLL INS : Mr . Speaker , no ,it is not really a ne w departure, this mechanism has l::een used many t:.i.Ires before . And in very brief outline, what would happen would be supposing a group wanted to donate,say,an electrocardiographic machine to one of the hospitals,and they would come to us and say, 'Can we give this to the hospital and not be saddled with retail sales tax? ' Well, I would discuss that with the Minister of Health (Mr . House) .

And what '1-Je would then advise the group is to raise the money, whatever it is, say it is $3 ,000 or $4 ,000 ,donate it to the hospital with the specific request that that donation be used to buy that piece of eq uipment , and then the ~linister of Health in the budget for the hospital will make 3036

May 1, 1984 Tape ::-l'o. 1149 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: an arrangement 1.;rhereby the hospital will get,in addition to its nnrmal budget, the normal amount t~at would be allocated to the hospital's budgetary purposes, it would be given an extra amount to cover the retail sales tax on that piece of equipment. So it is an arrangement that is worked out bet~.;een the Department of Finance and the Department of Health.

It has worked very well, it has been in place for quite a number of years, we have looked at it in detail and it does get us around the great difficulty of exempting, say 1 electrical equipment to hos~itals,because then 1inevitably 1 after a period of time, one is going to get leakage from that and you find that things that one did not intend to be exempted were being exempted for hospitals.

And also one would find that in our estimation, not only would hospitals be getting things, shall we say, in an exempted way other than what was intended 1 but other people quite unconnected with hospitals would likely get in on the same sort of deal. HR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: .t-1r. Speaker. The hon. member for the Strait Mr.

Speaker, if I may, because the minister gets curiouser and curiouser, this policy may be well known·, I can only s·ay I have never heard of it referred to in the ffouse 1which may simply show I have not heard of it, but I think it is fair to say the minister is making news as he goes. Let me now ~k him, Sir, whether a similar policy, a similar consideration, will be extended to groups raising money,say,for old folks' homes, senior citizens' homes - MR. NEARY: Recreational facilities. MR. ROBERTS: - or recreation? Where does this end? We ~ow have, it appears, a policy which may very 3037

May 1, l984 Tape No . 1149 SD - 2 ~m . ROBERTS : \.;ell have a great deal of merit . I am not quarrelling at this stage . What I am asking is to~here does this end? 'ile no'" have a policy whereby if you give something to a body corporate,and all our hospitals are not bodies corporate - they are not the Crown- you give it to a body corporate and you can then, in effect, get the sales tax paid by the government . And it is only robbing Peter to pay Paul, or 1 if you \vish ,robbing Wallace to pay John 1 to say that the Health Department pays the Finance Department .

I mean , \.;ill this apply to a qift 1 fo r example, to St. Luke's Home or to the Agnes Pratt Home? I think that is a matter that the House should kno\v about, Mr . Speaker, i.f the min ister would care to enlighten us. 3038

May l, 1984 T~pe 1150 NM - l MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Well, Mr. Speaker, the han. member in his questions is bringing up the very point that I made at the beginning,that one has to try to limit this sort of thing. Once you try to do it on a very broad basis you get into a lot of difficulties and this is what we anticipated. So to reiterate; firstly,it would have to be a donation by a disinterested-or shall we say interested 1I suppose- but people who are not connected with the institution. In other words,it could not be the administrator of the institution doing it.

It would be a group of citizens who elected themselves to do this worthwhile act. Secondly, it would have to be something that the Department of Health, and we are talking about hospitals here, that the Department of Health would feel is a very desirable thing to do. And there is discretion there. There is discretion on the part of the Minister of Health (Mr.

House) ·, on the one hand, and I suppose on ourselves, on my score as a Minister of Finance on the other hand as to whether this was a desirable thing to do- Andthis is an area of discretion that any number of ministers have in administrating their departments and their responsibilities. That is what they are put in that position for. They are put in the position to make judgements and they are trusted to make judgements in the best interests of the people they serve.

Now that is what the Minister of Health, and in this particular case,as it deals with a tax matter, that the Minister of Finance makes in coming to a conclusion and this is done on an item by item basis. 3039

May 1, 1984 Tape No 1150 NM - 2 MR . SPEAKER (Russell)~ the Strait of Belle Isle. MR . ROBERTS: The hon . member for Mr. Speake r, it is hard to know where to begin because the more the minister says the more confused it becomes . We are getting near the end of QJestion Period but there is tomorro'" • fortunately. Mr . Speaker, let me ask the minister, is this beneficence now, this robbing 'Walla ~e' to pay 'John', is this restricted only to donations to institutions that are funded through the Department of Health? Because I may say, ~tr .

Speaker, I have never heard -and 1I mean,that only means what it means, but I think I know as much as some and perhaps more than some others even- I have never heard of a system whereby if you give something to an institution the government in effect pays the tax. 3040

May 1,1984 Tape No. 1151 ah-1 MR. ROBERTS: I suspect there are going to be hundreds of citizens groups throughout this Island and throughout the Labrador part of this Province tonight who are going to want to know about this. So can the minister tell us, first of all, is this only confined to institutions funded through the Department of Health? MR.SPEAKER (Russell: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge, up to the present time, it has only occured in regard to hospitals.

And I think that is probably not very strange because I think that hospitals have a certain attraction for groups who wish to do generous things, to buy equipment and that type of thing. To my knowledge it has not come forward in regard to people who want to buy books for schools or buying tractors for the Department of Transportation or to buy airplanes for the Department of Development or to buy courthouses for the Department of Justice or to buy certain buildings for the Department of Public Works and Services or to buy plots of land with trees on them for the Den~rtment of ?orestry.

To my knowledge these things have not occured, but they have occured in regard to equipment for hospitals. And,as I say,this is dealt with on an item by item basis, it is dealt with at the level of ministerial discretion,and ministerial discretion is exercised where it is right and proper and to the benefit of the public good. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for the Question Period has expired. MR. ROBERTS: Tomorrow, 'John', be brief. 3041

May 1,1984 MR.SPEAKER (Russell ): MR. WINDSOR: Tape No. 1151 ah-2 NOTICES OF MOTION The hon. Minister of Development. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the bill entitled, "An Act To Repeal The Gander Development Corporation Act, 1975;' and ·also,''An Act To Amend The Newfoundland And Labrador Housing Corporation Act." MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR.OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the bill entitled, "An Act To Remove Anomalies And Errors In The Statute Law." MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance.

DR. COLLINS: Mr .• speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into acommittee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions relating to the advancing or guaranteeing of certainl loans made under the Loan and Guarantee Act, 1957.

And I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions relating to the raising of loans by the Province • And I ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Service(Pensions) Act,"and that this House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions relating to the guaranteeing of certain loans made under the Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957. And 1 on behalf of the Minister of Health (Mr. House), Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Registered Nurses Act." 3042

May 1, 1984 Tape 1152 EC - 1 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Motion No. 1, the Budget Debate, adjourned last day by the han. the member for Port au Port (I-tt. Header) . MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak for a moment about the provisions in the budget concerning dental health. Mr. Speaker, I am sure that members opposite can appreciate the hardship that the provisions which were announced in the last budget and were announced in the budget of 1982 can cause for low- income families in this Province.

N:Jw, the recent increase in the charge levied on patients for non-preventive dental service, which are fillings and extractions, make patient~ now responsible, as of this budget, for $5 per unit . instead of the $2 per unit,which was imposed two years ago. And with the number of large families across the Province, the imposition of this increase is the second major step in the destruction of the preventive dental programme. It is the second step in the destruction of the preventive dental service which was brought in some years ago. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when the programme was first introduced, it covered preventive services semi-annually and restorative services without a co-pay charge. So there was a preventive dental fluoride treatment and then restorative services had no co-pay charge, in other words, there was no charge to the patient. This gave all Newfoundland children an equal opportunity to develop healthy dentition, in the words the dentists use. Two years ago, the present administration imposed a co-pay charge of $2 per unit 3043

May 1, 1984 Tape 1152 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: and, not only did they impose the co -pay charge but, as well, they reduced the frequency of fluoride treatments, which \ve call the preventive service, to a once a year basis. Now, ~tr.

Speaker, it has been estimated by the dentists and the Cental Association that this has caused a decrease in the number of children ,.,.ho seek dental services by somewhere between 20 per cent and 30 per cent, which means that the programme of dental service, which \vas a good programme \•lhich meant that the children of this Province would have less problems in the future, has been further eroded by t~~s year's budget.

With the imposition of the fee, further increased to $5, and with a drop of about 20 per cent in participation by the children of this Province who have been seeing dentists, we have no doubt that there will be less children seen . I would like to talk about that for a second just to explain what can happen in a family, let us say, of four children. It is not unlikely that a family of four children, if the mother \vere to bring the 3044

May 1, 1984, Tape 1153, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: children from a rural area into see a dentist that there might be as many as ten cavities. Now, at the present time this would cost fifty dollars,

whereas prior to this budgetary provision of this year it would have only cost twenty dollars. Now, in six months, if she has to come back for the cleanings and the fluoride treatment, which the budget of two years ago did away with, this mother of four children could be then expected to have to pay $100.00. So, Mr. Speaker, although the amounts may seem modest to perhaps gentlemen opposite, it is clear that the provisions of this budget is the second step in the destruction of the health care programme which was instituted some years ago.

And with the numbers of families with the type of unemployment that we see in the rural areas of this Province, and in this city, and the number of people who are below the poverty line in the Province of Newfoundland, I think that this is one of the dastardly acts of the government in this budget. The fact is the y have hit home at the children of the Province,in the budget of two years ago and in this budget, they have used the children of the Province to better their own financial ends and to try to make up for the mismanagement which has led the economy into the situation that we are in at the present time.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak for a moment on the fishery. I suppose that if there is anything which is the basis of Newfoundland society it is the fishing industry. The fishing industry is the reason that we came here in the first place, and the fishing industry is the reason that we stayed for such a long time. MR. NEARY: The backbone of the Newfoundland economy. 3045

May 1, 1984, Tape 1153, Page 2 --apb MR. HODDER: Yes. As my friend, the member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) says, who represents a fishing district where they fish all year round, they have a Winter fishery down there, a very prosperous area of the Province, it is the backbone of the economy. MR. NEARY: It is a unique fishery. MR. HODDER: Yes, a unique fishery.

I grew up there myself and I remember the big boats,there used to be big schooners there, and we now see big long­ liners down there on the Southwest coast and they fish all year round, and they are not afraid to leave their own areas to go and pursue the fish and stay out for weeks and weeks at a time. It is the mainstay, the backbone of Newfoundland. It is more important to this Province than the offshore, because if it is managed properly it will last forever, it will be here after oil has been forgotten. We should never forget that. Mr.

Speaker, the fishery is so important it reaches across every aspect of our society, even in communities which are not bounded by the seashore. And I do not think anybody in this House can di~~gree with that. At least the members opposite have paid lip service to it. Yet, in the this provincial budget the amount spent on the fishery was 1 per cent of the total budget. The dollar amount of the total budget being about $1.8 billion or $1.9 billion, the fishery budget was about $18 million - MR. NEARY: No wonder they are trucking fish from Trepassey up to Catalina. MR.

HODDER: -$18 million in a budget of almost $2 billion, approaching the $2 billion mark. Yet we hear the government opposite, and we hear the Minister of Fisheries(Mr. Morgan), and we hear the Premier proclaiming the importance of 3046

Max 1, 1984 Tape No. 1154 MR. HODDER: the fishery, how important the fishery is to this Province , Now, the budget is the document which shows what the government is NM - 1 planning to do for this Province. It is the most important document that the government brings in. It shows the plans that the government has for this Province. And if we are to look at the budget and see the percentage of the budget that is spent on the rr.ost important part of our economy,we find that 1 per cent of the whole budget is spent on the fishery. MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER: Is that not something? 1 per cent. Mr.

Speaker, it is time that this Province put their money where their mouth is. You cannot go out and try and arouse the emotions of Newfoundlanders on the Northern cod and on the importance of the fishery and then ignore the fishermen of this Province. !1r. Speaker, you know the situation which this Province found itself in this year, which led to the restructuring by the federal government of the deep-sea fishery 1 was an immediate result of the fact that this government over the past twelve years did not develop the fishery in the way that it should be developed.

Licences were given out where licences should not have been given out/ and I talk about processing licences. We went through a period between 1971 and 1975, and then after the 200 mile limit was declared we went from 1975 to 1978 ,· when anybody who wanted a longliner - nobody ever worried about the fishing capacity, nobody ever worried whether the Gulf stocks were bad or they were good; the 200 mile limit wa~ declared-and anybody who wanted could get a longliner. Fifteen of them came into my district. There was never a check done to see if the person 3047

May 1, 1984 MR. HODDER: liner. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1154 NM - 2 was able to ~andle the ~ong- Walter Carter carried on a leadership campaign for two and a half years, the then Minister of Fisheries. MR. HODDER: Two and a half years and gave out longliners hand over fist. Do you know how many longliners, Mr. Speaker, that are n9w in that particular district, that were brought in in that particular three or four year period? Not one. The longliners that are fishing out of that particular area now are longliners that were there before and people knew how to handle them.

There were people who built them themselves, there were people who ,,rent over to Nova Scotia and bouqht them. There was one example, Mr. Speaker, where government gave a longliner, I suppose it was worth somewhere around $350,000 to $400,000 - to a man who had no rrore ability to fish than the man in the moon. He had been a paper worker, he went after the provincial government, he received a longliner, a Fiberglas longliner with radar, net haulers, every kind of equipment - MR. NEARY: Automatic baiters. MR. HODDER: - automatic baiters, everything that you could think of.

It is down in my hon. friend's district now. MR. NEARY: That is right. So it is. MR. HODDER: And this Winter it was sitting there I think somewhere in either Isle aux Morts or Burnt Islands. MR. NEARY: It was on the slipway in Isle aux Morts. 3048

May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1154 NM - 3 MR. HODDER: It was on the slipway, the frost came; somehow or other the motor,which is worth something like $30,000 or $40,000 has been split apart and everything else like that. The government could not even take care of it - if it is repossessed 3049

May 1, 1984 Tape 1155 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: He is trying to walk away from it. MR. HODDER: And the gentleman can walk away from it. And that is the kind of a fisheries policy that we have seen. Now, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to point out as well that I wish the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) were here. I once had a group of fishermen come to me. I live in an area where there is a good smelt fishery AN HON . MEMBER: You want to gi ve the fish to the Russians . He will stop that. MR. NEARY: Yes, I am sure he will. MR. HODDER: - and one of them had six smelt traps. Now six smelt traps are quite a few smelt traps. MR.

NEARY: Who gave the Russians the storage tanks in Gander? I did not hear you objecting to that, letting them get in here, and the synchrolift, to encourage them to get inside of the 200 mile management zone . . MR. HODDER: That is right. MR. NEARY: Who gave them all of these things? MR. HODDER: That is right. The Minister of Fisheries will get up and scream and shout about the Russians fishing off our shores and how many metric tons they get. But when it came to this synchrolift and the Russians business it was okay then, bring the Russians in. MR. NEARY: Hypocrisy~ MR. HODDER: Hypocrisy!

When it comes to building oil tanks in Central Newfoundland to bring the Russians in, fine, let us do it. MR. NEARY: You did not hear him object to that. MR. HODDER: Now these were the two levers that we had. We had some leverage. MR. NEARY: Right. MR. HODDER: We had some leverage to keep the Russians off the Grand Banks. The fisheries policy of the 3050

May l, 1984 Tape 1155 PK - 2 MR. HODDER: members opposite would make one want to throw up. I have always lived, all my life, in fishing areas. And to see the number of licences that have been given to fish plants! When one fish plant could not survive in a particular area, ten licences were given out, and they are still doing it, Mr. Speaker. In an area where one fish plant can survive, you will find that the government have established three fish plants. If you are a good supporter of the government and you want a fish plant, you can get it. Mr.

Speaker, the fact about the longliners is the Fisheries Loan Board went crazy for three or four years. Then, to top all of that off, we had the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) found himself in a position where he had to have the federal government bail them out. Mr. Speaker, when I think of the mismanagement on the Southwest Coast and the lack of a sound developmental philosophy on the fishery! Mr. Speaker, I was going to mention about the smelt fishery. Now we have a good smelt fishery and four traps can do what perhaps fifty lobster traps can do for a lobster fisherman if there is a market for lobsters.

These people had four traps, and one trap would supply Corner Brook - stephenville - Port aux Basques area, so I went to the Minister of Fisheries and I went to his deputy minister and I said, 'where can we find markets for those smelt?

The fishermen have the licence' - this was about four years ago - 'they have the equipment, I would like to talk to your marketing people.' 'We will get back to you.' Sometime afterwards I had a call from someone down in the Department of Fisheries - I do not know who he was, he was not a very senior person - saying, "We do not have a marketing department, we do not have anybody in charge of marketing. Would you try Fishery Products up, _on the Northern Peninsula?" I went to the provincial government figuring that the 3051

May 1, 1984 Tape 1155 PK - 3 MR. HODDER: provincial government would be responsible for marketing fish. I got a letter back saying would you try UMF somewhere else, would you try this or that? They were asking me to do the marketing. 3052

May ·'.l, 1984 Tape No. 1156 .MJ - 1 MR. HODDER: But, Mr. Speaker, the fishery is the primary producer in our economy and it has to receive adequate re\11ards 1 and the fishermen, ~>1ho is the primary producer - M_'R.. TULK: He has to be rewarded. MR. HODDER: - has to receive an adequate reward for his efforts. These ·are the people who are on the first level of production, namely the producer of the raw material.

He is the same as the person who extracts the iron from the mines in Labrador City, he is the same as the man who works in Baie Verte, he is the same as a person who works in any primary industry in this Province, the paper worker in Grand Falls or Corner Brook or Stephenville 1 but how do we compare the wages of the paper worker, Mr. Speaker, and the miner with the wages of the fisherman? Mr. Speaker, in 1978 the fishermen were receiving 19.25 cents per pound, in 1981 he was receiving 20 cents per pound and in 1982 - 83 it is unchanged,and we wonder why the fishermen are asking for more?

And what did the Premier say to the fishermen of the Province? 'You must hold back.' In his famous speech that was part of this budget, 'Han .g tough.' And he mentioned the social compact, :this talk of a social compact between the fishermen and the super company. But the fishermen know what this social compact is, Mr. Speaker. This social compact is wage restraint, the social compact is the same type of relationship the ·:·fishermen have had with their employers down throughout history. We are not very much farther than we were in the days of the barter system, Mr.

Speaker. ·At least in the days when the fishermen brought in his catch and settled up for his salt pork and his flour, at least in those days he probably did not have any debts. But when we look at the difference between 1978 to 1983 and see that the fishermen is receiving 1 cent more than he did in 3053

May l., 1984 Tape No . 1.156 MJ - 2 MR . HODDER : 1978 1now what has happened to the economy since 1978? What has happened to the fishermen? We have al l sat here, we ha ve seen increases in every other primary industry in this Province, we have seen increa ses thr oughout the pub lic service, the cost of living, ~~. Speaker, has risen by about three times since .1978: ~vhat about the fishermen? He is making 1 cent a po und more than he did before but hi s real disposable income has decreased . HO\'l has it decreased? 3054

May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1157 SD - 1 r-l:R. HODDER: How does he maintain his standard of living? The cost of nets and gear has tripled. Does anybody know what it costs to buy a herring net now and what it used to cost to buy a herring net back in 1978? It has tripled. In 1978 I su9pose you could get a herring net for $40. MR. MATTHEWS: You would not get a hair net for that now, boy. MR. NEARY: That is right, you would not get a hair net for it, right. MR. TULK: When? In 1978? Thirt y-nine dollars. MR. HODDER: Yes, $39, that is what I thought, about $40.

And today if you want a herring net I suppose it would cost you close to $100. I have seen them go for $120 or $125. MR. NEARY: ~1R. HODDER: cost of nets and gear. Three times as much. So three times as much , the MR. TULK: And gasoline has tripled. MR. HODDE~: The gasoline has tripled or quadrupled. And these are costs which the fishermen must have. To give an example of the costs: Insurance at the present time for fishermen can cost him as much as $9,000 for a larqe boat. The cost of living has tripled. The cost of fuel from 1978 to 1983 has gone from eight-five cents to $1.85 per gallon.

And not only that, the cost of licences has risen. And 1 with that kind of a situation 1 the fishermen are only receiving one cent a pound more per pound of fish than they did in 1978. MR. PATTERSON: your boat~ MR. HODDER: It would be a good time to burn Mr. Speaker, that might have been attributed to having been said one time, but there are people who may not be burning their boats but they are getting out of them. So the hon. member can use that phrase all he wants 1 3055

May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1157 SD - 2 MR. HODDER: but he cannot use it with pride. I do not know the hon. member's district, I do not know how big a fishing district it is - MR. NEARY : Where? MR. HODDER: Out in Placentia there. MR. PATTERSON: learn about it. Come out and run against me anL MR. HODDER: Run against you! We will send out a child to run against you the next time. MR. NEARY: -as a Liberal the next time? MR. TULK: MR. HODDER: MR. NEARY: as a Liberal. MR. PATTERSON: Is it true you are going to run He in not running. We would not have you. You would rather not run or run I am kee~ing my powder dry .• MR.

HODDER: But, Mr. Speaker, in light of all of this, in light of the cost of living, in light of the cost of nets and gear, we are now talking about quality for the fishermen without compensation. And, Mr. Speaker, I attended a meeting of small boat fishermen - twenty to twenty­ five foot boat fishermen - people who make a pretty good living, not a great living. The should make a better living for the work they put into it, but it is a short fishing season. They only go out about three or four miles, since they live right on the fishing grounds.

They go out the four or five miles and they have to take the ice out with them; they have to gut the fish at sea and they have to have extra help; it takes them a longer period of time and then they have to bleed them and bring them in and they cannot get out the second time that day, so they cannot land the same volume of fish in as before. And yet, Mr. Speaker, they are so close to the fishing grounds that when they bring the fish in they are still alive. So, Mr. Speaker, now they introduce this type 3056

May 1, 19.84 Tape ~o . 1157 SD - 3 MR. HODDER: of quality control . Now the,re is no one in the fishery , there are no fishermen ~Tho do not be l ieve in quality control. But, Mr. Speaker, ~Then you realize that the increase for fishermen has been one cent a pound, vThen you look at the cost that he is no1o1 trying to meet, \oJhen you look at the fact that now quality control toJill enc0urage him to lose more 1 it is no wonder that \.re i1ave 'Onity '84 . · It is no \-TCnder that the Fishermen's Union are out attacking the government left, right and center, that they have become political; 3057

May 1, 1984, Tape 1158, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: it is no wonder they are holding meetings all over the Province. Mr. Speaker, it is a surprise that they are not marching in the streets. If this sort of a situatjon had taken place in the 1960s they would have been marching in tha streets. But, Mr. Speaker, the government should be warned that the fishermen are not going to continue like this. If the economy were any good at all in any other sector of the economy you would find more fishermen getting out than ever before.

The han. member can get over there and attribute old sayings like 'Burn your boats', but, Mr. Speaker, all of the fears that we had in the 1960s are now coming to pass. Mr. Speaker, this government has a moral responsibility, they have an obligation to the inshore and offshore fishermen,and what does the Premier offer? What has he offered? What did he offer of the eve of this budget? Mr. Speaker, I feel quite comfortable in speaking about the Premier's speech because the Premier came on television a few nights before to warn us of what he would do in the budget.

And what did he offer with his high-sounding rhetoric? He said, wage restraint! What kind of wage restraint can the fishermen suffer? And he calls it a social compact. That is a social compact. Well, I supvose that the fish merchants of old would have called it a social compact as well. Yes, it was a social compact, the merchant was in charge and they were the slaves. And there is not much difference now. A good fisherman can only make in some areas of this Province $6,000,or $7,000, or $8,000 a year, and that is only if he has, perhaps, a lobster licence.

That is what he makes and then he has to go on UIC for the rest of the year, and he has a period in between when he cannot get his unemployment insurance and sometimes his family is hungry, and then the Premier calls 3058

May 1, 1984, Tape 1158, Page 2 -- apb MR. HODDER: for wage restraint in the fishery. The Premier, I think, has proven to us now that he is not what we thought he was, he is not capable of handling the job. He is not even political anymore. I mentioned yesterday how he called for restraints for the paper workers while they were in negotiations and monetary funds were not an issue. MR. NEARY: the past. MR. HODDER: a relic. He will soon be a relic of That is right. And what Mr.

Speaker, when we look at the budget and we see that 1 per cent of the budget, for all the talking that we have heard of the Northern cod, and all the fighting we have heard about the Northern cod, and all the fighting we have heard about the fishery and the way the fishery should go - MR. TULK: Good question! What are they ?oing with the Northern cod now? MR. NEARY: They are attacking the Russians now about the fishery. MR. HODDER: Oh, that one has died.

You might ask what are they doing about the church/school issue, or what are they doing about the Labrador boundary that the Pr~ier came on television one time and told us about? We were going to lose our boundary, we were going to lose our church/school system on the constitutional debate. Why was that an issue at that particular time? Because he wanted to rouse the feelings of Newfoundlanders and he had to pick the issue. He was an expert, but people have learned. He saw a flash in the pan, he is gone. MR. NEARY: A shooting star. MR. HODDER: A shooting star, yes. 3059

May 1, 1984, Tape 1158, Page 3 -- apb MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, his trade- mark has been grand gestures. Frighten them to death, 'They will take our church schools.' 'They will change our Labrador boundary.' 3060

May 1, 1984 _Tape No. ll59 MJ - l MR. HODDER: 'The Northern cod are in jeopardy~' The Northern cod must be ours~' He did not stop to think that bhe fishermen from my han. Friehd 1sdistrict have been fishing in Nova Scoti8 waters for hundreds of years. Y.Jhen I grew up in t:lE community of Rose Blanche on the Southwest Coast,the fishermen there fished off the coast of Nova Scotia traditionally and historically. They caught swordfish off the coast of Nova Scotia and in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. There ,.,as no thought, 1 It is ours 1 1 The greedy, greedy feeling, no thought of negotiations - MR.

NEARY: Lazy and greedy. MR. HODDER: Lazy, greedy and then whining and sniveling and trying to blame all of tfuise problems on someone else. But, Mr. Speaker, 't>Tha t has the union been asking for? The union has been asking for a very simple thing. They would like to have some increases and they have also offered some solutions. They have offered some solutions so that fishermen can live bette~ Mr. Speaker, what sort of proposals have the Fishermen 1 s Union made that this government cannot condone?

They have asked that there be consolidated efforts in the fishery similar to those in the Saltfish Corporation~ they have asked that there be an established line of credit so that we can ride out the fluctuatiBns in the marketplace. These are very simple things, they are trying to protect the fishermen they represent and they thereby want to establish an income stabilization for our processors, our fishplant workers and our fishermen. Now, Mr. Speaker, what can be wrong with that? What is unreasonable about that? I would say, Mr. Speaker, that now that the provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) and the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane) and the Premier are all in bed 3061

May 1, 1984 Tape No. ll59 MJ - 2 MR. HODDER: together in the great super company,that there are going to be very serious problems if this government do not address themselves to the problems of the fishermen and the plant workers. Mr. Speaker, you know there used to be a psychology, and this government still. has it, that if you are a fishermen you not worth much. Mr. Speaker, the fishennan is worth just as much as your paper worker, your plant worker, your miner or anybody else with their union wages,but, Mr. Speaker, this is not happening in this Province.

And the more and more we see of the restructuring and of the super company, the more and more we see the problems which the fishermen are facing. Mr. Speaker, it is not acceptable. It is not acceptable to the fishermen, it is not acceptable to the people of the Province and it is another aspect of the decline of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Mr. Speaker, I had the good fortune to visit the Northwest Territories back a couple of years ago,and some hon. members on the other side were there with me.

I was quite amazed by the type of tourism promotions that they had in the Northwest Territories and the kind of services that you received. I went to Baffin Island and I went to Frobisher Bay~ lilhen you arrived in Frobisher Bay you were given all sorts of . very :r·accurate information as to where you could go.

If you want to get to Lake Harbour,which was an hour's flight by small aircraft, if you wanted to get to Parmaton, which is a National Park on Baffin Island, if you wanted to get to Igloolic- which was 1qhere I first saw the midnight sun inside the Artie Circle- if vou wanted to get to Igloolic there are ,,ravs to do it, there are charter groups, there are people and planes there that will take you. I was down at the Newfoundland Hotel the other day and I was in a room and I was looking at what was left in that particular 3062

May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1159 MJ - 3 MR. HODDER: room and all was left ~'las a Board of Trade pamphlet- good for the Board of Trade! - but v1hat about 3063

May l, 1984 Tape 1160 EC - l MR. HODDER: the Department of Tourism? What sort of a tourism promotion do we have? Do you know what we have done in Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, as far as tourism is concerned? We have given up. Someone on the government side told me the other day that our water was too cold for swimming. Well, we do not want to compete with Nova Scotia - MR. NEARY: Or Florida. MR. HODDER: - or Florida. That is not what people are going to come into Newfoundland for. Someone has to start thinking positively about this Province. People come for a variety of different reasons.

People like to snowshoe, people like to cross-country ski; we have ski resorts here that we can develop. People like to go out and jig a codfish, people like to take pictures these days. I walked into a park in my district and I met and talked with a doctor from New York. He said, 'I come back to this Province every year.' I asked, 'How did you first become acquainted with the Province?' And he said, 'I was one time a doctor with the Grenfell Mission in St. Anthony.

And,' he said, 'I come back every year and I come to this park.' He said, 'You know, this is the most beautiful place on God's earth,' this being Piccadilly Park in my district. And you come across all sorts of people from here and there. But, Mr. Speaker, we have given up the thought of promoting tourism. We print this little book every year that most of the time is inaccurate; most of the time it leaves out half the festivals that are going on in the Province; it leaves out some of the more quaint festivals in the Province. And that is the extent of our tourism promotion. 3064

May 1, 1984 Tape 1160 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: We have a few entrepreneurs, some people in tourism in a small way, who may take you out here or there, but there is nothing consistent. You cannot walk into the Newfoundland Hotel or into Holiday Inn and see 'These are the tours.' But you can do it in the Northwest Territories where everybody has to fly, where every community is 150 miles away from another. MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER: over to Yellowknife. MR. STEWART: Right on! We went from Frobisher Bay Does not the member notify the minister about what is going on in his district? MR.

HODDER: The member notifies the minister- but how far does it get transmitted? Does the French Folk Festival in Port au Port or the Hanaishore Festival on the West Coast? Or tile Scottish Fiddlers Festival over theJ:e, does that get down into the United States? MR. NEARY: No. MR. HODDER: Do the people in New York Cit y and Boston and these places know about these? No, Mr. Speaker, they do not. But do they know about Prince Edward Island? Yes, they do. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. HODDER: We have a lot to sell here in this Province and we have a lot to give to other people.

When I see pictures of those picturesque little communities in Maine - and I know Maine very well; I have been right along the seacoast of Maine on hundreds - not hundreds of occasions, but at least twenty or thirty times, I have travelled the seacoast of Maine. I lived in New Brunswick for some time. And I think of Peggy's Cove and all of those places in Nova Scotia. And we can go almost anywhere, 3065

May 1, 1984 Tape 1160 EC - 3 MR . HODDER : we can wander around the Southern Shore, around the bay or in any part of Newfoundland and can find any community that is as good as those. I spent last weekend in a community in my hon. friend 's district, the community of Petites. It has no roads, but it has a tremendous community spirit, it is a very picturesque little community \.;ith wonderful , warm people . You know, there are people in this country who would give a right arm to be able to spend a feH days in a community like that . 3066

May 1,1984 Tape No. 1161 ah-1 MR.HODDER: And, Mr. Speaker, do we try to sell this aspect of our Newfoundland culture? We had a Premier who, when he first came in was interested in the art scene. I wish the Premier would go and talk to some of the arts community now. He did the wonderful thing, he set up the great Arts Council. Well he should talk to some of the artists in this Province now. I met one artist in this Province, and a true artist he was, at the Festival of the Arts in Stephenville.

And he said, you know, I am not going to get enough stamps as an actor this year in this Province to be able to get my unemployment insurance. Now here is a gifted Newfoundland actor, whom I have seen on a number of occasions, who told me that he was working for his stamps. MR.TOBIN: I can show you hundreds who are working for their stamps. MR.HODDER: Now that is the great Newfoundland cultural revival that the Premier was suppose to lead. It is dying around us. MR.NEARY: MR.TULK: Forced to go on the dole. What was that? I did not hear what the ignoramus from Burin-Placentia (Mr.Tobin) said.

MR.HODDER: If it was a comment from the member for Burin-Placentia West it does not count for anything anyhow. He does not talk sense and he does not talk English. MR.NEARY: He is the most uncouth and low we have ever seen in this House. MR.HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if hon members ever go anymore to the LSPU Hall. I do not know if hon. members ever take in some of the drama that our Newfoundlanders are doing in the Province. I have talked to them about the struggles which they have in order to perform. ~e have some of the greatest music, 3067

May 1,1984 Tape No. 1161 ah-2 MR.HODDER: some of the greatest actors and for awhile they were being developed. MR NEAR Y : Kell y Russell and Rufus Ginchard. HR.HODDER: !-1R.TUL K: Kell y Russell and Emil Benoit. The 'Jim Hod der Reel'. HR.HODDER: become very famous. I mean' TheJim Hodder Reel 1 now has It is known by all. AN HON .MEMBER: Fisheries (Mr.Morgan). MR.HODDER: And the sin ging of the Minister of No, the provincial Minister of Fisherie's song will never be as good as' The Jim Hodder Reel.' It was composed by Emil Benoit and it has been played by all the Newfoundland musicians.And as well, Mr.

Speaker, it has been recorded. It is on record.and if you would like to buy the lastrecord by Emil Benoit's record you will hear, 'The Jim Hodder Reel' on there. But, Mr. Speaker, if the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) will let me get on with my speech, my erstwhile colleague . MR.TOBIN: Is it anything like the Jim Hodder speech we are listening to? MR.HODDER: I should tell the member that I have a number of things to say and the more he interrupts the longer I will be. MR.NEARY: That is right. MR.HODDER: The Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) wants to speak and I am sure someone on the other side would like to speak. MR.TUL.K: MR.HODDER: No, they do not. They are not allowed. Well 1 you can see what has happened to the Cabinet over there. MR.NEARY: They have been silenced. 3068

May 1,1984 Tape No. 1161 ah-3 MR.HODDER: ~ffi.Speaker, what is the blind spot in this government? Yesterday I talked about the fact that we are not creating new business, we are not making anyattempt to create new business. But why is it that we are not attempting to do anything with Tourism? You know,the last idea the government had that was novel on Tourism was to send the Norma and Gladys around the world. Now I know that the Norma and Gladys must have brought some people to this Province. MR.NEARY: tender.

MR.HODDER: And now they have her up on The Norma and Gladys was the last idea the government had except for printing a brochure every year. They print a new brochure every year. But, Mr. Speaker, the Norma and Gladys is better on land than she ever would have been on sea 1 because at least if she were on land I could take my son,who has never seen a sailing ship,and say,'That is the type of boat that I used to have to go on from an isolated community to see the doctor at one time. That is the type of boat that your grandfather was in. MR. NEARY: You have ·to be careful.

Remember what~they did with the Annie Coady? They turned her into a love nest. 3069

May 1, 1984 Tape 1162 NM - 1 MR. HODDER: The problem with the Annie Coady is that again the government did not have any interest in her and they did not provide the proper security for her and they did not provide the proper protection for her. And that is the difference. And this is the last of our banking schooners, we do not see that type of ship around again and that ship should be preserved 1 but not in the way the government did it.

That was just a method of getting all the Cabinet ministers and the backbenchers around, whenever she landed, when she landed in Dublin the people were there, when she landed in Sweden they were there, when they landed in-Bristol there was somebody who fell off the wharf,I believe. MR. TOBIN: Did you get a trip? MR. HODDER: No, I did not get a trip, Mr. Speaker. I am the same on the Norma and Gladys Yes,I did get a trip on the Nerma and Gladys. No, I went aboard of her 1 I was offered a trip on her, but I did not take it.

But I will tell you where the trip was, the trip would have been from Stephenville to Corner Brook and I did not take it. But I was very interested in taking it. MR. TOBIN: I heard that you got onboard and you got seasick and you had to go ashore. Is that true? MR. HODDER: the trip. MR. NEARY: at the cost. MR. HODDER: I was very interested in taking He got stomach sick when he looked I was very interested in taking it 3070

May 1, 1984 Tape 1162 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: because it was a part of my childhood, part of the days when I used to be on that type of ship. I think that ship should be preserved. But that is the best thing that could happen to it and I think it should be protected and secured so that the generations in the future can see the last banker, or a replica of the type of boat that used to sail these coasts in the old days, which my grandfather used to sail from Pushthrough in Hermitage Bay to Cadiz and Lisbon in Spain on boats like that. I am talking about my grandfather on my mother's side.

They were small boat fishermen. But that was the type of boat that was used. But nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to talk about the Norma and Gladys any longer, but I am baffled by the fact that this government has no concept of trying to promote tourism in this Province. I live on the West Coast where there are many salmon rivers, I travel the Northern Peninsula where there are many salmon rivers, and Mr. Speaker, the accommodations are not adequate. We have Marble Mountain which could be a ski resort, which can be developed. We have the scenic and the picturesque communities around our shores.

We are trying to compete with the type of things that Prince Edward Island is offering. Well, we can in many cases, but we have not got the confidence to do it. There is a blind spot. There is no thinking in 3071 ·.

May 1, 1984 Tape 1162 NM - 3 MR. HODDER: the government . They are just sitting there waiting for the oil to come ashore, a caretaker government . What are you doinq with tourism? When the Minister of Development (Mr . Windsor) who is responsible - well, it is not even a department here . It is not even a department.of government . It is like Consumer Affairs . But ~.rhen the ministe r responsible for tourism stands up, and I hope he will stand up in this budget debate , I hope he will tell us \.rhat wonderful new ma rks he is making this year in tourism that is going to bring the people in,particularly from the Northern United States and from the re st of Canada . 31J72

May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1163 SD ...,. 1 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, if you get a French folk festival,as it takes place in my riding, they do n~t have the resources to be able to get that message into Quebec from where we would receive all sorts of tourists. \.Ve do not have the resources to be able to - MR. BAIRD: Chretien will bring it up to Quebec for you. MR. HODDER: No 1 I am talking about tourism potential and the hon. member over there with his buttoned down,closed mind and silly humour has to throw something that is so inane and stupid across the floor as that.

If he cannot be funny, do not say anything at all, I would say. MR. TULK: You make your speech , I will take care of him. MR. TULK: If he keeps on going 1 I am going to support him for the Leadership of the ~iberal Party in Newfoundland, he has been that good for the last h-70 days. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that if I ran for the leadership of the Liberal Party that - !1R. TOBIN: I would support you. · MR. HODDER: Hr. Speaker, yesterday in a general way I spoke about youth unemployment in this Province and the fact that the budget did not in any way address itself to youth unemployment.

It did not address itself in any way to employment or unemployment in any way except, , you know, when the House Leader (.Mr. Marshall) got up and said that we are putting this much into roads and bridges. We do not consider that to be an attack on employment, we consider that to be an absolute necessary thing which, if it were not done, people would not be able to move from one community to another and the roads would disappear. So anything that is being done, the pittance that is being thro\'m around for education with ten school boards in debt 1 and the pittance that is being thrown around for 3073

May l, 1984 Tape No . 1163 SD - 2 MR . HODDER : highways cannot be considered job creation. And, you know , maybe the Confederation Buildi ng Exte nsion out there \>till give some people some job s for a very short time, out that is not \o~hat I consider job creation . Nowhere was there an attempt at job creation . But there are t\·10 different aspects of job creation that He s:.ould look at in thi s Province .

I mentioned yesterday the :act that other provinces, including Nova Scotia and Ne' " Brunswick - and I will not go through all that aga in - are successfully bringing in new business, not encouraging busine ss es that are already there to expand but bringing in new business in to the communities . Mr . Speaker, just to give the bon . members some idea of the type of thing that this budget neglects 1 details were released recently in Saskatchewan of t\ ·10 major job creation programmes.

T!"lese are not federal prog rammes, they were announ ce d by the Advanced Education and Manpo\o~er ~inister, and that is a v ery good idea . 3074

May 1, 1984 Tape 1164 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: It was not announced by the federal government. It was not federal government money. It was announced by the Minister for Advanced Education and Manpower, which I think, by the way, is not a bad title. Because in this Province we have a Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) who is still introducing courses that are geare~ to the 1960s and maintaining courses that are geared to the 1960s and we have a Manpower Minister (Mr.

Dinn) who does nothing, but perhaps if we had a Minister of Education and Manpower we might be able to have the right type of thinking that I was talking about yesterday in trying to educate people for jobs in the future. MR. TULK: You have to change both ministers. MR. HODDER: If you put the two ministers together that you have there now you would not have a good one. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. HODDER: But anyhow, Mr. Speaker, the programmes, one was called Saskatchewan Opportunities '84 and the other one was called Access Youth Employment.

This was the Saskatchewan's government commitment to creating jobs for the youth in Saskatchewan. How much money did they put in it, Mr."speaker? Saskatchewan Opportunities '84, they put $2.7 million into the programme. How much did we put into our Venture Capital Fund? $500,000. MR. TULK: the Budget was read. MR. HODDER: Big deal! They had that gone before Now this may be short-term employment but it will at least get youth employed for the first time because we have thousands of youth who have never had work.

I would like to show han. members a study that was done by Canada Manpower in my district where 90 per cent of the young people were unemployed. You know, Mr. Speaker, some 45 per cent of these people had never held a job in their life and cannot find one, and they are looking. 3075

May 1, 1984 Tape 1164 PK - 2 MR. HODDER: But anyhow that particular programme is expected to create 2,600 jobs in a variety of sectors in the provincial economy. It has the same broad employer base as a programme which they had last year, Opportunities '83, which was considered a major success in Saskatchewan. The three month maximum employer subsidy of $350 per month for each job created will be available to farmers, business people, non-profit organizations, municipalities and other local governments.

Now that is a programme where the provincial government has put money into the hands of a sector of the economy in order to hire the youth of the Province. MR. TULK: where your mouth is.' MR. HODDER: That is called 'Put your money Eligible students include permanent residents of Saskatchewan who are at least sixteen years of age who are enrolled in a post-secondary education institution for the next academic year. That was $2.7 million which they put into that programme.

Then the next programme, the Access Youth Employment programme, they put $3 million and that is aimed at putting young people into jobs over the longer term for twenty-four to thirty weeks. And it is aimed at creating jobs for young Saskatchewan adults between the ages of fifteen and twenty-four. Now, Mr. Speaker, there were two programmes by the provincial government who were concerned about the young people. You know, Mr.

Speaker, I am aware that Saskatchewan~probably ha~ a better economy than we do, but what I am really concerned about is the fact that this particular government did not even give lip service to the unemployed youth in this Province. They did nothing to show that they had any care or concern about unemployment with youth. And whether it had been $1 million or $1.5 million for Newfoundland it would have been a commitment to the youth of this Province. 3076

May 1, 1984 Tape 1164 PK - 3 MR . HODDER : But the re we have it, Mr. Speaker, a government that thought that the unemployed youth was a great danger, and it is a great danger, as I pointed out yesterday , that young people who are going into the labonr force, who never had jobs before, that is the worst time ; they are growing up learning what social assistance is about in some cases before they learn a.bout the work ethic is about, and then, if they do get a job for a short while, they go on OIC .

It is not good , and members there opposite kno w it is not good and we know it is not good, but what did the government do about it in this budget? t-1R . TtJLK : Th at crowd? Nothing! MR. HODDER : But I point out this about Saskatchewan where they target two great groups of yout .h, 3077

May 1, 1984, Tape 1165, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: one group were those who wanted to further their academic education, they put $2.7 million there, and the other group was the group that were without jobs, who were in the other category, young adults. And the first programme last year, the Saskatchewan Youth Opportunities '83, was a major success and they have continued with Saskatchewan Youth Opportunities '84. But in the Access Youth Employment,a wage subsidy of $2.50 per hour,'employers will be encouraged to create incremental positions for unemployed youth'.

And they anticipate the creation of 1,000 positions for youth between fifteen and twenty-four. Now, Mr. Speaker, could we not use that in this Province? Could we not use that in this Province where we are in a position at the present time where we have the highest unemployment in the country and the highest youth unemployment in the country? Mr. Speaker, if members opposite think I feel bitter about the budget, I am bitter about the budget. I think that the budget was one of the most disastrous documents. Newfoundlanders have become used to the fact, they do not expect very much anymore.

For a while the government almost persuaded Newfoundlanders that they had no responsibilities, that all the responsibilities were the federal government's responsibilities; the federal government should be the employer, the federal government should be the people to put the money in. But Newfoundlanders are now starting to realize that the federal government does do its share, and they are starting to realize that the provincial government has a responsibility as well. And this is the type of responsibility they have: They are responsible for unemployment. MR. TOBIN: And the feds as well. MR.

HODDER: Yes, the federal government 3078

May 1, 1984, Tape 1165, Page 2 -- apb MR •. HODDER: is responsible for unemployment too, but so is the provincial government. They are responsible for our youth and,if they are a caring government,then they will care about what happens. They do have a role to play. They are responsible for tourism, it is a provincial responsibility. Yes, we sign agreements with the federal government, but that is not the only responsibility we have. It reminds me of something.

Some Development Associations across this Province have come to the point where their only - I am not saying all Development Associations - only job in life is to be able to extract federal government programmes. They cannot extract provincial government programmes because there are none. But that is their main focus in life, to extract money out of the federal government. Mr. Speaker, this government reminds me of that in that their main task is. to extract from the federal government, and anything that goes wrong . blame it on the federal governmeat,but they have no ideas themselves. You know, Mr.

Speaker, sometimes good ideas do not cost that much money, and sometimes we waste more money when we do not have those good ideas. And we lose money when we do not have tourists corning into the Province. MR. BUTT: MR. HODDER: be here for some time. Are you almost finished? No, Mr. Speaker. I may MR. PATTERSON: You will be her~ until the next election and then you are gone. Speak on the positive aspects of the budget. MR. BAIRD: He will not be here after the next election, I will tell you that. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, he asked me to speak on the positive aspects of the budget.

I spoke on the positive aspects of the budget yesterday. The positive 3079

May 1, 1984, Tape 1165, Page 3 -- apb MR . HODDER: aspects of the budget were the decrease in small business tax and the venture capital, but they did not do anything to stimulate the economy . So the good things were the bad things . There were a fe w goodies thrown out; I am glad for the people of Marystown, I am glad for the people of Fogo , but the fa ct is that again it was crisis management; in order to keep that ship­ yard going down there they had to do somethi ng, and some ­ thing certainly had to be 3080

May 1, 1984 Tape 1166 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: done on Fogo island and it is something that should have been done a long time ago. Mr. Speaker, you know, that is a positive aspect of the budget, but ask me what else is a positive aspect of the budget and I cannot tell you. MR. BUTT: Twenty-five million do 1.lars worth of water and sewer >'lark. MR. HODDER: Twenty-five million dollars worth of water and sewer. Does the member actually believe that the government is spending twenty-five million dollars on water and sewer? MR. BUTT: Of course. MR. HODDER: Yes, but the municipalities will pay it back afterwards.

That is not money from the govern­ ment, that is guaranteed loans. And now they have put up the rate at which the capital must be paid back by 5 per cent. So what they have done now is they get the munici­ palities to tax even more so that the municipalities are on the firing line rather than the government. It is just a way of weaseling from one to the other. I will be interested to hear what han. members have to say when they get up about all those positive aspects of the budget, what was good in this budget. MR. BUTT: We are still subsidizing about $30 million every year. MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, every year the noose is growing tighter and tighter, taxation goes up in the municipalities more and more every year, property tax is corning in. It is at the point now where the government will recoup its money and more. Mr. Speaker, do not talk about guaranteed loans, do not talk about money for highway construction when every road in the Province is deteriorating. 3081

May 1, 1984 Tape 1166 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: The only road we have in the Province that is worth ~riving over, and that is not the best, is the Trans-Canada Highway. And now the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) tells me that he is going to try to get the federal government to get into secondary roads. We have now this year, as a Province, given a\ ·;ay a lot of our rights in the fisheries through the super company, and now we are going to try to get the federal government into secondary roads. The next thing, we will be asking them to come in and build our schools.

Do you know what the next step is after that, r:Ir. Speaker? We may as well dissolve the House of Assembl y and let the country be run centrally if this government is not going to take responsibility and do its iob. MR. BAIRD: If we listened to the hon. member that is what we would be doing now. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, if we were to listen to the government, we would be out as an independent nation. The separatist feeling over there comes across every day and you cannot talk one way when you are thinking the other way. Now, Mr. Speaker, this budget has also done something else.

Make no mistake, when the Premier came on T.V. to warn us of what was in the budget, the aim of the Premier was to destroy the unions in this Province. I read in the paper today that there was so~.1e dispute in the unions. If hon. members on the government side of this House can gloat over the fact that they are beating the unions, that the unions are at bay, which I have heard members say and I have heard said in the press, if members feel that that is a good thing, then they are in for a rude awakening. Because a strong union movement in this Province is needed. And the Premier is attempting 3082

May 1, 1984 Tape 1166 EC - 3 MR. EIODDER: to destroy the unions . That was the main thrust of the budget and that was the main thrus.t of the Premier's speech a few nights before they brop.ght do\m the budget , to destroy the unions. And, Mr . Speaker , the union movement in this Province is certain l y needed . I shoUld tell hon . me.mbers, Do not go to one of the hospitals . I had a conversation last night , as a matter of fact , with some people who work in the hospitals. ~m . PATTERSON: Tell us something that was interesting that ~~as not cut . MR .

HODDER: Why do you not go to the Health Sciences Compl ex and see what this budget has done the r e, where you get o ne nurse on a ward \•lith sixteen patients and unable to handle one at times, '"hen nurses give medi­ cation that is prescribed by someone else . MR. PATTERSON: (Inaudible) . 3083

May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1167 MJ - 1 MR. HODDER: No, in the Health Sciences Complex where you have nurses who work thirty-six hour shifts, that is what is going on over there now, where there are nurses who call downstairs and say, 'We want bandages and medication' and they are told 'Well, you cannot have it, you have used up your quota.' And th~n they try to get it off another floor and sometimes it takes ten or fifteen minutes before they can get the proper medication. MR. PATTERSON: Yes, tell us about things like that, if these things are happening. MR. HODDER: I just told you.

What is wrong with you you cannot go down and find out yourself. MR. PATTERSON: You are talking to yourself. No one is listening. Sit down. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that the hon. the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) will always be the party whip, and he will walk behind the Premier. He will never get to be a parliamentary assistant and I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that in the next election he will not even bother to run because the Liberals are about to clean his clock down there. And, Mr. Speaker, he never speaks, but he can always get there and natter.

That is the one thing he is good for. MR. PATTERSON: I described Smallwood in 1971 and that was the beginning of the end. MR. HODDER: Now, if the hon. member wants to go down to the Health Sciences Complex and talk to some of the staff down there he will find out that he will get an earful about what is going on there. I do not know if I would put anybody in hospital in this Province any more with the type of - MR. PATTERSON: MR. HODDER: Where would you send them, Bangladesh? With the type of health care 3084

I>1ay 1, 1984 Tape No. 1167 MJ - 2 MR. HODDER: programmes and the type of restraints that have been put on this Province I might send them to Bangladesh, yes. MR. PATTERSON: Tell us about those things. MR. HODDER: Well, I did. MR. PATTERSON: Now you are making sense. MR. HODDER: But, Mr. Speaker, what the government has done, to get back to the unions, is try to destroy the unions. Mr. Speaker, the thrust of this government and the thrust of any government in Newfoundland should be to have good labour relations in this ·Province. Not a union person in this Province has one bit of use for this government.

And, you know, Mr. Speaker, what is so sad is that the people, the public servants who run the business of this Province and to whom we have to look for information and guidance, are the people who have been slashed time and time again and that is not good, Mr. Speaker, for the running of this Province. It is not good for the running of the Province, and it augers ill for the future.

Because while the government rray have ~n a temporary battle, I can tell the governrrent opposite that the nurses, that NAPE, that aJPF,, t.})at all o£ the unio::1s t.'Jat t.'lls goverill:'ent has to deal with are getting ready and it would be far better if this government were committed to good labour relations rather than confrontation, rather than lack of consultation, and that has been the byword. The government has not negotiated in good faith with any union in this Province.

They did not negotiate in good faith with the teachers, they did not negotiate in good faith with the vocational school workers over here, where the Minister of 3085

May l, 1984 Tape No . ll67 MJ - 3 MR. HODDER: Labour and Manpm'ler' s (Mr . Dinn) uncle was on the picketline, they did not negotiate in good faith with the union in this case, where they called the union leaders in fifteen minutes before to tell them their legs were chopped out from under them. There is no such thing as collective bargaining in this Province any more and that is a princ~ple of democracy . MR . TULK : ~~at is that? MR . HODDER : Collective bargaining. ~~d that is not something that is happening in this Province and the Minister of Labour and Manpmver can get up and say what he wants . He can rant and 3086

May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1168 SD - 1 MR. HODDER: rave and do all he wants 1 but if I were the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Hr. Dinn) I would have a bodyguard, I would take, perhaps,two bodyguards wherever I went. MR. DINN: I can handle myself. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, you know, the other problem,and this is the last time I will talk about the wage freeze, the other problem is the fact that we have probably lost the last real chance of coming to grips with the real and pressing problems of inefficiency in government that we have now with the freeze and the type of attit~de that exists in the civil service.

Maybe the minister' s deputy minister speaks well to him,but I can tell you that the people in the lower echelons of his de~artrnent do not think well of him. And we have lost the type of co-operative - MR. DINN: Are you talking about my department? MR. HODDER: Any minister's department. The type of co-operation that one time existed 1when there were good labour relations amongst ministers and amongst the employees of the civil service,has disappeared. And you cannot get clear of ineff .iciencies in government by arbitrarily doing it, it must be done in a co-operative manner.

And the wage freeze in this budget has probably cost us the last real chance of coming to grips with this pressing oroblem of inefficiency in government. Because the only way it will ever be overcome is through a co-operative effort between the civil service and the qovernment of this Province. And certainly this government will never be able to sit down and try to overcome the inefficiencies of government. Mr.

Speaker, the story of the 1984 provincial budget, as I pointed out yesterday at 5:50 p.m. and I will not repeat myself, is that they have apologized for what they have done, there is an apology in there,and 3087

May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1168 SD - 2 NR. HODDER: they have asked that they be given an even chance. You know, this qovernment has ruled this Province for the past twelve years and it is approximately about one half the time that the Liberal administration were in power. Mr. Speaker, twelve years in any man's estimation and by any standard you choose to apply certainly must constitute an even chance. This gover~ment, past and present, who were all basically members of the same administration, have had a full dozen years, 144 long months in which to exercise an even chance to develop our people and our resources.

Now, Mr. Speaker, you would think that since the Tories had half as much time as the Liberals in office that they would be able to accomplish at least half as muc~. The fact that you have had half as· much time in pm¥er you should be able to accomplish half as much, but, Mr. Speaker, let us look at what this government has accomplished in half the time and see if the accomplishments of this government are geometrically proportionate to the accomplishments of the Liberal administration .. Hr.

Speaker, the truth is not only did they not accomplish anything but,in fact,destroyed half as much of the economy and more that the Liberals had established. 3088

.&a May 1,1984 Tape No. 1169 ah-1 MR.HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the Liberals built Memorial University, they built 1,200 new schools, they introduced the school bus system, they started eighteen trade schools, they started the College of Trades and Technology, the School for the Deaf, the College of Fisheries, the College of Engineering, the College of Medicine, the School of Nursing, the Arts and Culture Centres throughout the Province, most of them, 90 per cent of them. They started Public Libraries, the Archives, the Fishermeds Loan Board , they introduced community stages and marine service centers and longliners.

And while they were doing this , Mr. Speaker, they were electrifying the Province and they were doing all the things that needed to be done after we came into Confederation. They introduced the hydraulic haul outs for boats, the electronic fish finders, the mid-water trawls, the Danish seiner. They built and financed over sixty fish processing plants while they were in power. And in those plants they increased the number of people working from 1500 to 10,000 persons. They introduced the Labrador Fishery Development Commission, The Canadian Saltfish Corporation, mining developments all over the Province.

The Marystown Shipyard was introduced under a Liberal government. They implemented the local preference policy of 20 per cent on purchases of localproducts. They instituted the formation of district development councils, the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, the Industrial Development Loan Board. Mr. Speaker, blueberry development, poultry farms, beef farms, mink farms, Farm Loans Board. I can tell the former Speaker, the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) they were the people 3089

May 1,1984 Tape No. 1169 ah-2 MR.HODDER: to first bring in a caribou management programme. They built hundreds of miles of forest access roads. They built the road from Happy Valley to Churchill Falls,and the Strait of Belle Isle road was built. They put up public buildings in Wabush and Labrador City. I mean ,I do not have to go on, Mr. Speaker, they paved 2000 miles of road and rebuilt. And not only that, Mr. Speaker, they built the Trans­ Labrador Highway. MR. YOUNG: Do not forget the chocolate factory. MR.

HODDER: You do not have to talk about the bridges that they built but I will tell you what they did do: They established the growth of Eastern Provincial Airways. They built and improved twenty-eight hospitals while they were here. They introduced free education for people at university which was taken away by this government. They built old age homes. Mr. Speaker, they built this Confederation Building in which we stand. They built the Sir Richard Squires Building in Corner Brook. They were the first to bring Hansard into this House of Assembly. MR.PATTERSON: Yes, all at cost plus to Smallwood's friends.

The king of cost plus~ MR.HODDER: Oh, yes, King of cost plus. What about the rent in the Murray Premises? I was down there again the other day where your buddy down there, the bagman, is still taking money offthe government. 3090

May 1, 1984 Tape 1170 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: Do you know what this government have done? I must say one thing for this government, they refined patronage. Tell us about all of the people all over the Province that you have put on boards and paid. Tell us about the Tenancies Boards. Tell us which party they represent. There are more boards around this Province now than were ever seen before. Do not tell me about corruption. The Province had never seen corruption at the level that this government have seen it. HR. PATTERSON: MR. HODDER: and Shaheen? Tell us about Doyle House and Shaheen.

Yes, what is wrong with Doyle House Mr. Speaker, I only refer the accomplishments of the past, there were failures in the past certainly, but when you look at the accomplishments of the past it goes back to my remarks that I made before that people have forgotten that a provincial government is an important government, they have a role to fulfil. And, Mr.

Speaker, this government have, by its actions and by its attacking of the federal government, has lost its credibility with the citizens of this Province, and it has even come to the point that people have forgotten what a government is capable of doing, what a government has the capability of doing. But what a shocking legacy, Mr. Speaker, we have seen in the past two years. What a legacy of betrayal.

You mention the growth of this Province in the first twenty years, and then you start to look at what has been happening in this Province; the Corne By Chance refinery was too much for the government to handle so they pushed it over on Petro Canada so it would not be blamed on them. They knew what was going to happen from the very beginning. When we look at the closures of the plants and the mills and the mines and everything else, and the government sits there and twiddles their thumbs lets it go. I mean, I do not have to remind members 3091

May 1, 1984 Tape 1170 PK - 2 MR. HODDER: opposite what is happening in their districts, about the closures that have been going on throughout the past Summer and during the past Winter. Mr. Speaker, it is time for a change, it is time for new ideas. It is time for this government to either g~ve up, to call an election, to call a leadership convention, to do something. It is time for new ideas. There are no new ideas. There is nothing but sad, sick policies. The document says, 'Given an even chance the administration will develop our resources and people.' Well, Mr.

Speaker, they have had twelve years to do it, and it has been a twelve year drought for our economy, not because the people in resources were not there but simply because the administration knew nothing about development, they knew only how to close things down, how to increase taxes, how to tax the people, how to waste the taxpayers' money. Twelve years they have had now, Mr. Speaker, and, you know, I wonder how much longer do they need? Another week? Another month? How many years do you need? You have had twelve and we see the Province collapsing around our ears. How many more years do you need? Let us know.

Perhaps it will be next week, but I doubt it, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when they have received their large mandate in the last election, they received their mandate to negotiate on the offshore and they have let the people down. It was only yesterday that I warned han. members opposite, I warned the member for Carbonear(Mr. Peach), that when they played the game of trying to wait for the right government to come into being in Ottawa that they were playing a dangerous game. And this morning, lo and behold, 3092

~~ May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1171 NM - 1 MR. HODDER: the poll shows that if an election were called today the Liberals could beat the Tories-leaderless. That is what it said, that the federal Liberals without a leader could beat Brian Mulroney today-even without a leader. .That is what the polls really .said. And even if it was 4 per cent off we would still have an even chance of winning the government. And what I told the House Leader opposite {Mr.

Marshall), and han. members opposite yesterday, what I told them was that it was dangerous, it is a dangerous precedent to hang the hopes of the people of this Province on the fact that a government will change in Ottawa because,nurnber one, the government may not change, and 1nurnber two, if it does change you have no better chance that you did before. And maybe now is the best time. This might be the best time in which you could ever negotiate. And if you knew what your bottom line was and you knew what you wanted, you should be negotiating continually. And,lo and behold, what happened this mornin~?

The poll comes out, the Federal Liberal Party has swept up - I do not know how many points, 46 per cent, the Tories are down to 40 per cent, Mulroney is walking around with his ample chin on the ground and the Liberal Party of Canada does not even have a leader. And, Mr. Speaker, I,as well as members opposite, would like to see a good offshore deal. But I do not believe that you should wait and fool around because what you are doing is you are trying to save your 3093

May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1171 NM- 2 MR. HODDER: own politi~al necks, you will not be able to get a better deal with a new qovernrnent, but you will be able to look bette4 so that the game plan is to save your own political necks. I would say that this morning the Premier, wherever he is, the Government House Leader opposite (Mr. Marshall), did not have a great smile on his face. They know that the jig.is up, that their strategy has been wrong. Their strategy, to get the best deal for Newfoundland, is a correct strategy, but it is the way that the government has gone about that.

And I warned han. members yesterday that anything could happen. Is this poll that we saw today an aberration or not? I would say that ti is not, because the federal Liberal Party has not reached their peak. They are on their way up. They have not even picked a leader yet. And this government is hanging its offshore oil policy on the fortunes of what happens up there. And that means that they are hanging the people of Newfoundland, who gave them a mandate to negotiate, out to dry. And that is what this government is doing.

But the Premier must have had a twisting in his bowel this morning when he saw that result, as did members opposite. It must be a great day for the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) when he saw the polls this morning and he realized that his seat is in jeopardy. And, Mr. Speaker, we have not even got into the provincial polls as of yet. Mr. Speaker, you know, this government has been a failure. It is a large resounding failure.

I mean, I have done some reading of Newfoundland history, but I would say that this government has been the biggest failure, I suppose, since the Conservative Government that signed away our 3094

May l, 1984 Tape 1172 EC - l MR. HODDER: Responsible Government and brought in a Commission of Government. This government must be the first government since then that has been such a failure,and will be seen in history as being a failure. Mr. Speaker, all we have seen from this administration is a litany of contradictions, contradictions in their stand on the offshore, the philos- ophy of excuses. MR. TULK: Attacking somebody else to cover up their own deficiencies. MR. HODDER: Exactly.

As my hon. friend says, their philosophy is to attack to cover up their own stupidity, their own laziness, their own inattention, their own care- lessness. And that has been the tactic of this government. Do you know, Mr. Speaker, when I first carne into this House of Assembly, there were some good men who sat across from me. There were sixteen in Opposition, there was one independent and there were four for the Liberal Reform Party. There were some good men in government in those days, but they have all disappeared and all we have left now is just the chaff, the wheat has been separated.

And there were people whom you respected. There were people who could debate over there. There is nobody over there anymore who can even defend their government. MR. NEARY: Useless hulks. MR. HODDER: Useless hulks, as the han. member says. Anyway, the Premier's personal propaganda machine got him through a couple of years. I think it is five years he has been Premier now. I1R. TOBIN: He has won two elections. MR. NEARY: I think he has had it now! MR. HODDER: People have seen him now. 3095

May 1, 1984 Tape 1172 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: He has had it now, Mr. Speaker! The Premier's cross-country speaking engagements - he has a speaking engagement, you look at the editorial in the local paper and he is just a dismal flop as he goes across the country. He cannot change his spots, he is still the arrogant, stunned, inane Premier, who is - ~1R. NEARY: Greedy, lazy. MR. HODDER: - greedy, Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the Premier is lazy, but I have met many peo?le viho do a lot of work but acco mplish nothing. I think that is how it is with the Premier, he does a lot of work but he accomplishes nothing. MR.

NEARY: out of his office. MR. HODDER: That is right, any excuse to get You know, he has been very good at giving former colleagues monstrous salaries and looking after his friends. He has been great at putting supporters on boards and things like that. MR. NEARY: Now he is going to look after 'Frankie Baby' with his new Convention Centre. Every hotel in Newfoundland is practically bankrupt and now they want to build another. MR. HODDER: That is right. Mr. Speaker, I think the Province·would be better off if the Premier wen~ back to the Super Bowl and stayed there.

I know he would not come back from the Super Bowl last year when the town of Gander was in trouble. He could not even make that gesture to come back from the Super Bowl. I think he should go down there and stay. I do not think if the Premier left the Province we would miss him. You know, we do not miss him here. I have noticed this session, whether the Premier is sitting there or not, it does not matter, he does not say anything anymore. He does not speak. He just gets up 3096

May 1, 1984 Tape 1172 EC - 3 MR. HODDER: every once in a while . He just does not count for anything. The government is leaderless . And one of these days the members opposite will wake up and I suppose they will elect the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) as their leader; that is the only salvation that I can see they would have. They are certainly not . going to elect the member for Mount Pearl (Mr . \-lindsor) as their leader. Re is just a great big lump who has done nothing since he has been Minister of Development . He has developed nothing in this Province only making promises and studies . SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! t-1R. HODDER: It would certainly not be the Minister of Finance (Dr . Collins}. I like the Minister of Finance. He is a good fellow and all that,but he does not have the charisma . 3097

May 1, 1984, Tape 1173, Page l -- apb MR. HODDER: Themember for Grand Falls(Mr. Simms) is the only hope that is left over there at the present time. let me say that - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HODDER: Speaker. MR. SIMMS: MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, in conclusion Oh, oh! Well, I do not know, Mr. Do not stop now. I have a great curiosity, Mr. Speaker. I am very curious as to how the government is going to defend this budget. I want to hear it. I have read the budget, I have looked at the good parts of it, and I want to hear how the government is going to defend this budget. MR. NEARY: to hear.

You know what you are going Put on the record over there and play the same old record over and over again. MR. SIMMS: hear, too. MR. HODDER: We know what we are going to Mr. Speaker, just let me say that perhaps the most elemental economic weapon that this Province has at its disHosal at the moment is a political one; the unions have realized it, and I suggest it is one which this Province will soon use, will use shortly~ And this is an economic ~eapon which will bring around the recovery of the economy of this Province in such a way as has never been recorded in history before. And, Mr.

Speaker, that economic weapon which the people of Newfoundland have in their hands to change the economy of this Province, that economic weapon is the surgical removal of the cancer that has crippled our economy for the past twelve years, the physical booting out into the streets of this crowd opposite which I stand and speak before at the present time, this crowd of political thugs - 3098

May 1, 1984, Tape 1173, Page 2 -- apb MR. ANDREWS: unparliamentary. MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, that is No, it is not. - and the restoration of political decency, sanity and morality once again to this Province and its beleagured people. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the weapon that the people of this Province have to turn the economy of this Province around, to remove the hon. members opposite. Mr.

Speaker, I stand here at a time when the fishery is in a state of collapse, the fishermen are hungry, there is chaos in the mining industry, there are severe problems in the business community, and there are problems in the construction industry, most of them havegone bankrupt. There is a desparate lack of housing development, and Newfoundlanders are leaving the Province in droves, people are leaving their fishing boats in droves. And what, I ask, does this budget do for the situation we face? SOME RON. MEMBERS: Nothing. MR. HODDER: Not a thing.

We were hoping that after the vicious· exercises of past budgets that this budget would do something. There was even a hint, there was a leak that they were going to do something to improve the economy of th~s Province. MR. TULK: They have that venture fund, you know, 'Jim'. MR. HODDER: The venture fund of $500,000, yes. Venture capital, $500,000: Now which company did they have that earmarked for? That is the question I would like to ask. MR. TULK: taken over Metal Craft. MR. HODDER: Metal Craft. They have Oh, I see. That is what the venture capital is for. Because I knew they could not 3099

May 1, 1984, Tape 1173, Page 3 -- apb MR. HODDER: do anything straight. We-knew that that $500,000 was so woefully inadequate that they could not do anything straight. 3100

May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1174 SD - 1 MR. HODDER: Obviously, you know, $500,000 for venture capital and nothing to stimulate new business. MR. TULK: (Inaudible) bankrupt and another one called Metal Craft (inaudible) MR. HODDER: No, Mr. Speaker, I am waiting for the day when the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) comes into this House with a plan for the educational future of our Province. Education: If you look at the way the Western democracies are going now, education for a little while was sort of downhill but suddenly the computer revolution has hit us.

We have computers in some of our schools and do you know how we are using them? We are not using them in the way that they are supposed to be used. We are learning how to use them, but in some countries now they are using them to solve problems, they are teaching people how to use them in a useful way. All we are doing so far is just learning to use them, which anybody can do. MR. TOBIN: The new hospitals being constructed, how come you have not talked about them. MR. HODDER: New hospitals being constructed, Mr. Speaker, I told the hon. member just a minute ago that the member for Fogo (~r.

Tulkl when he stands to speak, I am sure can tell you as well as I can the situations that are in the hospitals in St. John's at the present time. You do not have to talk to very many people to find out what is going on in the hospitals in St. John's right now. And one of the members opposite - the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr.

Tobin) was not in the House -said, 'I suppose you would go to Bangledesh', and I said, 'Yes, I might go to Bangledesh after hearing from professional people, doctors and nurses, what is happening in hospitals right across this Province, people working thirty-six hour shifts, short supplies. You know, they are spending more money promoting restraint in some hospitals than if. they did not promote restraint. 31 0 1

May 1, 1984 Tape No. 1174 so - 2 MR. HODDER: A patient is bleeding and you do not have a bandage, you have a quota of bandages on your floor, so you have to go downstairs. MR. TULK: Do you know a twenty-five cent comb, I just figured it out, the administrative cost is $5.25 to get it out of a locked cupboard at the Health Sciences Complex. MR. HODDER: That is right, because you have to send a paid nurse who takes half an hour to get downstairs. MR. TULK: And then she has to sign invoices and papers and all the rest of it. MR. HODDER: yes.

But to qo downstairs and bring back that twenty-five cent comb they worked it out to be $5.25. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. NEARY: They have the service vessel in Marystown thanks to the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk} who suggested to Ottawa that they buy that boat they have down there. MR. TOBIN: What boat? She was announced before ever Ottawa did anything. MR.NEARY: You are not fooling the people down there, boy. MR. TOBIN: And I will tell you something else, it was a fellow from Bu:r::in who bought (inaudible} MR. NEARY: You are not fooling anybody, the people down there know the difference.

All they have to do is read Roger's brochure and they know the difference. MR. HODDER: MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, we were hoping that - Down there they burn Roger '·s brochure. MR. HODDER: You know, the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin), when I first met him I though he knew something but, you know, the member for Burin - Placentia West has no political couth and he has no political 3102

May 1, 1984 Tape No. ll74 SD - 3 ~1R. HODDER: savvy. Because if he had any political savvy he would not even be in the House now he would be down running from door to door, from now until the next election - MR. NEARY: Trying to get elected. MR. HODDER: - trying to get elected. Because the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) is in the same boat as 90 per cent of the members over there. MR. NEARY: He has a bad irnag~ on the Burin Peninsula and a bad reputation. MR. HODDER: That is right, Mr. Speaker, especially since last year. MR. NEARY: They do not like rudeness.

One thing about the people on the Southwest Coast the hon. gentleman should know - MR. HODDER: MR. NEARY: not like rudeness. MR. TOBIN: you, in that case. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : They like gentlemen down there. - they like gentlemen, they do They must have some hatred for Mr. Speaker, if I could. Order, 9lease! MR. HODDER: He is not in his seat, he is very irritating, Mr. Speaker. I mean, he is not funny and he -has no sense of humour whatsoever, and these inanities that he throws across the House, it is just ignorance. MR.

WINDSOR: I do not know about rudeness, I am talking about the stupidness contained in your speech. MR. HODDER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the hon. minister may not like what I say in my speech but the people of this Province believe what I say in my speech. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! 3103

May l, 1984 Tape 1175 NM - l MR. HODDER: Whistle past the graveyard. But, Mr. Speaker, we were hoping that after the vicious exercise that was put through in past budgets that this budget would do something that would give us some opportunity. I was hoping, Mr. Speaker, that I could stand U1J and praise the administration ,. I could have praised·the administration,! suppose,on behalf of my friend from Fogo (Mr. Tulk) - MR. TULK: No. MR. HODDER: - . and on behalf of the people from Marystown, but Mr. Speaker, I know why it was done. ~1R. TOBIN: MR. HODDER: You gave an ideal answer.

We told them how to do it, how to keep the Marystown plant going and the boat yard going and how to satisfy the great need, that need. I heard a person on the radio the other morning from Fogo and she was talking about her son who was in Intensive Care in the Janeway and she was stuck over there and she could not get over and it tugged at my heartstrings, Mr. Speaker. And I know what the member for Fogo has to put up with and it is corning one of those days - HR. NEARY: But they are more interested in a convention centre, a new hotel, when all the hotels .. are bankrupt. MR.

HODDER: I drove in town the other day and I said now the~e is the new Confederation Building extension. And the person with me said, "Well, make no wonder every- body outside of St. John's is mad when they see that kind of construction going up when there is no need for it whatsoever. MR. NEARY: A new House of Assembly. 3104

May 1, 1984 Tape 117 5 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: And I said, "Well there is a need for it." "Yes, but there is no need now." And there is no need for it at this present time. Now we are going to have a new convention centre and an Arts and Culture Centre up in Labrador City and I am sure the people of Labrador City if they had a choice between arts and culture centres and jobs and employment they would take the jobs and employment. I have nothing against arts and culture centres, but they come in their place. MR. TOBIN: You have nothing to talk about, you are a disaster, boy. Sit down, you are wasting your time. MR.

TULK: And then they talk about resource development over there. MR. HODDER: And they talk about resource development. Do you know what this budget was made up of? A few little goodies given here, and a few littl