Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Thursday, March 1, 1973 I SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 16

March 1, 197) The House met at 4:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Tape No. 395 PRESENTING PETITIONS: NM - l HON. EDWARD MAYNAR_!?,_MIN_ISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTS: Mr. Speaker, It gives me great pleasure to anno\Dlce on behalf of the Government of Newfoundland, in conjunction with the honourable Don Jamieson, representing the Government of Canada, that today approval has been reached of a programme for agricultural development in Newfotmdland under the Canada-Newfoundland Rural Development Agreement, commonly known as ARDA III.

The agriculture development programme is designed to improve the incomes and create employment in rural areas through growth in the agricultural industry as well as to improve the agricultural skills of farm operators, increase the volume and value of agricultu re production in the province . This impor tant new programme is intended to run until March 31, 1977 at a total cost of $15,951,000. The provincial and federal governments have both approved· a five year pro~ramme i n principle and have authorized expenditures of $8,941,000 during the first three years, that is until March 31, 1975.

The province will be r esponsible for the implementation of the programme under a joint management throup,h the ARDA committee and t he cost wil l be shared equally between the two levels of government in accordance with the ARDA III a~reement. The programme was fully development with co-operation and assistance from the Federal. Department of Agric~lture and continuing advice and assistance will be available from that depar tment in the management of a programme to help ensure success.

The programme approaches agricultu r e development in the province through five major activities - land consolidtion, capital assis tance to farmer operators, h1.1tr.an reso urce developme nt , marketing 1173

March 1, 1973 Tape No, 395 NM - 2 and faI'.111 support acitivitiea. The land coasolidation programme is designed to increase tbe amount of land available for agricultural use to the level required to meet crop and livestock production goals.

It is also designed to provide effective pl anning and management of agricultural land use, These objectives will be pursued through a land consolidation project and a land use surveys projects which will be directed and co-ordinated by a federal-provincial land use and developin~ planning committee, The capital assistance programme for the larger, more efficient and more numerous farm units to be brought into production. As a result of the land consolidation pro gramme, many fam operators will require financial assistance to erect buildings, buy machinery and equipment or acquire breeding stock.

The capital assistance programme is designed to provide financial assistance. 1n the form of a once. only capital grant, The elegibility for assistance is dependent on the acceptability of the operators' farm management plan. In this way the assistance can be geared to the operators' needs . The capital grants to qualifying farmers would not exceed $6,000 per farm plus $200 per acre of eligible farm land. Applicants for this assistance may be eitheY new entrants into fanning or existing fanners planning to expand.

The human resource development programme - this pro~ramme is designed to provide training and farm management assistance to exi sting and new farmers and to facilitate a flow of infomation.important to farmers in a form relevant to their needs. These objectives will be pursued to ~elve related activites as follows - fann management consulation, comD1tmity and area workshops, regional and provincial workshops, specialized workshops, field days, travel and exchange, youth involvement, staff 1174

March 1 , 19 73 Tape No, 395 NM - 3 training, the Western Agricu1tural Centre sileage pilot project, small fruits demonstration, feeding trial with beef. Many areas of the province are not served adequately with presently produced items and will therefore provide important markets for local agricultural products. An attempt will be made to develop produces which could be produced locally but which are not widely produced at present . The marketing programme is designed to "foster economic activity related to agriculture.

This progra11lllle will be carried out through several activities including (1) feasibility studies of paticular projects, (2) detailed analysis of present procedures and market perfomance, (3) market development activities in conjmiction with other government depa r tments and private enterprise, (4) co-ordination of the agriculture and food system across the sector and through time, (5) the renovation, expansion, purchase or establ i shment of special facilties which cannot be provided through other programmes.

The farm support programme - this programme is designed to improve the efficiency and productivity of farms in Newfoundland through the provision of specialized facilities and services which normally cannot be provided by farmers themselves or by that sector of the business community which prima r ily serves agriculture. It is also intended to provide for improved breeding stock and feed and to ensure 1Mintenanee of high quality through the provision , at reasonable costs• ,of these important farm imputs through centralized facilities.

These objectives W'ill be pursued t hrough a series of projects related to specific services or facilities required , problems to be overcome or conditions to be dealt with: The projects included are: regional pastu res project , farm access road project , flood cont rol project, sheep breeding station, provincial agricultural 11.75

March 1 , 1973 Tape No, 395 NM - 4 laboratory project, western awine breeding station, western veterinary cliuc. and soil and feed testing laboratory project , and a potato seed fann project. The ARDA III agre8111etlt on which th.is agricultural development programme is being financed was entered into by the federal and provincial govern111eUta on May 2.8, 1971. It is the 1176

March 1. 1973 Tape no. 396 Page 1 - MRW is the third such agreement since the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act, the name was subsequently changed, which was passed by the Parliament of Canada in 1961, The third agreement provides for programmes of rural development and adjustment on the basis of fifty/fifty cost-sharing between the federal and provincial governments. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that this will no doubt form the co1:t1erstone of the agricultural industry in Newfoundland from now on. MR. W.N. ROWE: I am glad , Mr. Speaker, to hear the lllinister make this announcement today.

I believe, if I am not mistaken, it is the first major project to come under the third ARDA Agreement which was si~ned by the previous administration in 1971. Is that correct? Is this the first major project under the new ARDA Agreement? MR. MAYNARD: Under ARDA 3. MR. ROWE: Under ARDA 3, It makes me happy today as well, Mr. Speaker, because I had the honour of being the Minister of Community and Social Development when we brought in the third ARDA Agreement in 1971.

At that time or prior to 1971, there was some feeling on the part of officials if not ministers in Ottawa to get rid of the ARDA Programme altogether and to try to do everyth1ng under the DREE Progranme as strictlv defined 1 the DREE Programme that then existed . Wg in this province , and in other provinces resisted what we thought to be a bad tendency on the part of the federal officials to get rid of the ARDA Agreements . We finally were successful in getting a third ARDA Agreement signed, although a year or so later than it should have been signed.

If we had not been up against this sort of obstTuctionism on the part of the federal officials we would have had an ARDA Agreement signed ~erhaps late in 1970 rather than in May of 1971, As it was, we went through some eighteen or twenty drafts, trying to get the new ARDA Agreement signed and we were able, l believe, to get a new ARDA Agreement which was tailored to meet the unique circumstances of Newfoundland rather than the previous ARDA Agreements which were tailored 1177

March 1, 9173 Tape no . 396 Page 2 for , 1 believe, Western Canada's needs, There were all kinda of references to wild rice development and things like that ~hich had no application whatso~ver to Newfoundland ' s problems. We were able to get into the third ARDA Agreement in 1971, good references to rural development and fishery development, which we hope will se.e some action in the months to come. I am happy to be able to congratulate the minister for negotiating this particular agreement, this subsidiary agreement.

I would assume f rom what he is saying that when 1975 rolls around that a new ARDA Agreement will then be entered into to look after the agreement in principle for the succeeding two years thereafter. We hopefully will be in a position to sign that agreement, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the minister, before sitting down, whether there is any indication from his department and the Government of Canada, the various departments concerned, as to other pro1ects dealing with our other resource s, i.e., what is going on under the fishery part of the 1971 ARDA A~reement and perhaps other resources as well, forestry for example springs to mind? Are we reachin~ the stage where new agreements for that type of ove rall project are like iy to be entered into in the near future?

Perhaps the minister can nnswer this question as to whether the projects which are supposed to ~o ahead on an area basis, certain areas are supposed to hsve a r.omprehensl ve type of rural deve lopment on a sort of multifarious ~roup of projects on an area basis, communities in the one area pulling t<lgether. Bas their been much prog ress made on that tY1>e of development and ~re we likely to see agreements entered into by. say, rural development assor.iations,the Government of Newfoundland and the Government of Canada?

Could the minister give the Rouse some information, in ot~er words, future development s under other areas of the ARDA Agreement? 1178

March 1, 1973 Ta-pe no. 396 Page 3 MB., SPEAKER: I fee1 that the honourable member's question could very well be placed on the Order Paper. We might be gettin g into a debate on the m1oister1al statement which might not be the right time to do this. MR. W. N. ROWE: I adhere to Your ·Honour's ruling. but it has been the practice to ask a few questions of a m1niater on his ministerial stateUIBDt, If the House wants to get rtd of that tradition, I am willing to go along with :it. 1.f the min.1.ster wa11ts to answer 1179

March 1, 1973 Taoe 397 JM - 1 it does not make any difference. There is no interest in debate on my paxt I am merely lookin~ for some information and if the minister does not want to ~ive it I am jus t as nappy. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible}. MR. MURPHY: It 1s out of order, out of order. MR. SP~ Order please! RON. W.W. MARSRALL(MIITTSTER WITHOUT PORl'FOUO): On that point of order and by way of explanation,the usual mode when ministerial statements had been given when we were in opposition, Mr.

Speaker, we were not always allowed to comment, We have given the latitude to the opposition to make comments on the statem .ent but, Mr . Speaker, I would submit that it is not in order to engender a wholesale debate with respect to ministerial statements and as Your Honour has alreadv stated there is a proper form for that in the rest of the debate that comes up and in the procedure with respect to ask1n~ certain questions. MR. ROBERTS: Ur. Speaker, it. 1s just that it has been the tradition. ~1R. SPEAKER: I so rule that if the hon. member wishes to ask a question it could be placed on the order paper .

PETITIONS: MR. M. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave t o present a petition on behalf of the Happy Valley Hunting Association. The prayer of the petition is rather brief and states, "We, the undersigned, support the llappy Valley Huntin~ Association in irs attempt to have the following changes made in the hunting regulations in Labrador and the reco111111endations are as fol lows: (1) that the big game licences covering management areas should be issued only to persons who are res~dents of Newfoundland and Labrador for a period of five years: (2) that management zone {

B) be reduced in size immediately and (3) that any resident of Newfoundla nd and Labrador be permitted to hunt in any open zone in Labrador. 1180

March l, 1973 Tape 397 l 1 10111d l ike to say at this point that I support entirt-l v this petition. There are some strange things happenin 11 with regnrd to wildlife '11,mapement re11ulations here I think. I n the first inst;1nce the practice has been to issue licences to people from outside of the province, This is not entirely new but in view of the fact that in Lahrndor much of our "'ildlife population have been dissemfn : tt in the la.<;t • l fteen or twentv years I think resident of this province. should be 11iven first chance. The second part of it where it mentions the reduction of the area of zone (

B) what has happened here I th.ink is that the adioinin~ zones have heen i~cluded into zone (

B) to the extent that it is impractical to r.o huntinr- into the adioinin~ zones anyway because there are no areas left where there are any c~rihon. The third nart re~ommended that any resident of ~ewfoundland and Labrador he nemitted to hunt in anv onen zone and I think this is only fair. As it stand,; at the moc:,ent if you are a resident of :i:one (B) , for instance, vou cannot hunt <i•ttside of that zone and l think this is rather unfair . I 11ould like to s,1y af?_ain that J support this petition ond I hope that Twill hAve the support of the other members of this House. Mr.

Speaker, I ask that this netitio n be placed on the table of the House and referTed to the department to which it relates. MR . . H. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ~neak in support of the 1>etit1on that was l)resented by the hon. member for T.abr11dor South in that the petition was orif?.inated in the District of Lahraclor }!orth.

I do not wholly suppo rt the prayer of the pet ition hecause I feel that in a lot: of circumstances that if residents of 1.ahrador , from the 1~appy Valley-Goose Rav ~rea,which is not a densely populated area but a highly nopulated area, if they :ire l!,iven the freedom to travel into the different zones of Labrador and to hunt in the zones in the coastal areas where people are hi1rhlv dependent on huntillS!: and caribou meat 1181 ,TM -

Harch 1. 1973 Tape 397 JM - 3 prilT\l\rily for food or subsistence, I feel that this will no doubt -deplete the stocks in the different zones of Labrador. ~o I do not speaker. Sir, wholly in support of the petition dthough I feel that the local. residents or Labradorians should be ~iven some leeway in some respects as to where they should hunt. In this particular case, Mr.

Speaker, thinking in terms of a number of 1,eople who have. moved into Labrador from the coastal areas and now they have ~ood j ohs or they have a high standard of living in Hap~y Valley­ Coos~ Bay, I feel that they should have the same freedom to travel back to their homelands in the coastal COIDlllunities and have the same buntin?, Tights as the people who have chosen to live ln those particular ~omm11uities. I feel that if a person f~om Happy Valley should not be allowed, if 1182

MARCU 1, 1973 Tape 398 PK - 1 he has seven 1n family,c.o go into a coastal community such as Davis J:nlet although he had moved away from there some fifteen or twenty years, or go back to Nai.n in a coastal community that he originated from and hunt seven caribou, I feel there should be some regulation but the people who live in those communities that do not have facilities, freezing facilities or other facilities to perserve fresh meat for the vinter and where they have to import the meat at a cost of twenty-two cents a pound by air frei~ht from Goose Bay plus an additional twenty cents a potmd from Honcton or St.

John's, Ln result, Sir, it will end up costing that particular person to import fresh meat forty-two cents a pound in transportati on alone. I feel that the people from the Happy Valley, Goose Bay Area should not get the same privileges as the people in the coastal communities.

I feel that the zoning is fair and equitable and that the people in the coastal commtmities should be given the preference to hunt more caribou or they should he given the right to hunt more caribou than the people in Rappy Valley and Goose Bay because the people in Happy Valley and Goose Bay do not necessarily have the same needs for that particular meat as the people in the coastal communities. I support the petition in principle, Sir, but I do not support the petition on the grounds that they should be given the equal rights . MR. SPEAKER: The nonurahle gentleman for St. John's Centre. hON. A.J.

MURPHY: (MINISTER OF SOCIAL ASSISTANCE): Mr. Speaker. if I may I would just like to add my support to the petition but in doing so I must commend the honourab1e member for Labrador North for his remarks. I think he is looking at it very sensibly. I was Minister of Labrador A£faii:s foT a very short time but one of the very serious problems we faced up there was this matter of hunting so on and so forth. I think that the honourable member put it in a true form basically and I think it was very courageous in a sense of him because he does represent the district th.at the petition is coming from.

But I feel in essencP that I will support it except for certain reservations and there Ls no 1183

1"'.at:ch 1, 1973 Tape 398 PK - 2 need for me to add and 1 am sure that the former Minister of Labrador Affairs will join with me as many others will that Labrador is a very very special case for hunting. I would like to say that I would support it in principle but l think a hard look has to be taken at the rights of different people on the Labrador Coast. MR. St'Ei\1<.ER: The honourable }linister of Tourism. HON. T. noYLE (_M!"Nif:TF.R OF 'l'OlllUSM) • Mr. Speaker.

I would just like to comment for the infomation of the ~embers for Labrador South and Labrador North that the Wildlife Division of my department are currently taking a very, veey hard look at this whole situation in the light of what hoth honourahle gentlemen said and what the honourable tlinister of Social Services has added, in that we hope to be in a position in a very short time to be able to Rive some concrete information. 1"'R. SPF.AKER; Are there any other petitions? PRESENTING RFPORTS OF STANnING AND _§_F.~ __ COMMIT'l'F.ES [JON._£.: _ DAWF. (}llNISTF:R OF MANPOWER AND INDUSTRIAT. RELATIONS): Mr.

Speaker I would like to table the 1972 Annual :Report of The Workmens Compensation Board for Newfoundland and Labrador, Also report of the matters transacted hv the ~inister of Labour during 1972 under the provisions of The Labour Relations Act 1 The Labour Relations Board and The Minimum Wage Act. l!J!, SPFAKER: Are t:liete any olher reports uf standing and sele.ct co11111itteea? NOTICE OF MOTION HON,...'.!:..!. A•_JUCKMAN (MINIS'!ER OF JUSTICE): Mr.

Speaker, 1 give notice that 1 will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills: A b:lll, 'An Act Respecting Homes For Special Care," A bill, '"An Act Further To Amend The Newfoundland Municipal Pinancin~ Corporation Act..·· HON. E. MAYNARD (MINISTER OF.•.AGRICULTUR.E AND FOREST) : Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Forest Fires Act.'' MR. ROBERTS: To a point of order , my colleague for White Bay South, well Your Honour recogni~es the Minister of Justice that is fine. Theo my 1184

March l, 1973 Tape 398 PR - 3 colleague is he not entitled? It is only a matter of precedents, there is nothing giving ministers precedent in this business, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable l!lelllber is certainly entitled but tbe other honourable minister was on his feet. MR. MURPHY: Next week will do me, I am not in that much of a hurry, if it is urgent business. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will. on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Real.th And Public Welfare Act." That is all toere is to it, ten seconds . No speeches .or aoytbing else .

Now let ua hear from the honourable member SJ1d beautiful ,nember for White Bay South. MR. ROWE, W.N. Brevity is the soul of wit. 1185

March l , 1973 Tape no. 399 Page 1 - MRW MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following resolution:

WHEREAS during the pa~t ten years over sixty thousand accidents have occurred on our highways, and WllEREAS these accidents have resulted in personal injury to over twenty­ five thousand people, and

WHEREAS tbese accidents bave resulted ln eight hundr ed people being killed, and

WHEREAS records for the year 1972 indicate an increase in traffic accidents and injurles of between twenty-five and thi.rty per cent over the year 1971, the highest in our history, and

WHEREAS records show that one hundred and eight Newfoundlanders were killed in traffic accidents during tbe. year 1972, the highest number of fatalities in our history, and

WHEREAS the Newfoundland Safety Council has submitted a brlef to the government, supported by a petition of nearly ten thousand licenced drlvers requesting among other things that a royal commission be set up to examine into all aspects of the situation,

NOW THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this House direct the government to establish immediately a commission of enquiry to examine, enquire into and investigate all aspects of highway safety and that such coll!lldssion of enquiry be directed to report back to the government with their findings and recOl!llllendations without undue delay. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, 1 give notice that 1 will on tomorrow ask leave to present a bill, "An Act To Amend The Expropriation Act." DR, ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I ~ill on tomorrow ask leave of this \louse to present a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Newfolllldland Medical Care Insurance Act." MR. IUCi<E:Y: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I w~ll on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bill; a bill , "An Act Further To Amend The 1186

March 1 , 19 7 3 Tape no. '.WJ Page 2 Co-operative Societies Act." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present the answers to Question No. (29), (JO) and (31), all asked bv the hon. member for Fogo, dated February 23, 1973. In presenting these answers I might say that they are all in relation to space rentals by TJrj depa r tment in various locations.

It may be noted that in some cases, although the question. was asked as to what the square footage was, it is not given in all cases because in a few of these instances the re are remote buildings that are rented on a sole occupancy basis and the square footage has not been calculated, Also it could be noted that where leases have passed the expiry date, given on these answers, it is usually included autolllaticallv in the lease that there would be a renewal on a month to month basis. DR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer the Question No. (33) on the Order Paper of Friday,23 Februarv, ·asked bv the hon.

Leader of the Opposition. No change is cont emplated at presen t in the roanagement and administration of any hospital facility located at Labrador City. If new factors and situations develop then tbev wi.11 be considered as they arise and any modifications required will be considered at that time . The Captain William Jackson Hospital in Labr ador City is managed by the Salvation Arury. The answer to Question No. (76) on the Order Paper of Wednesday, 28 Februa ry , 1973, asked by the hon. Leader of the Opposition: "no mobile dental clinic 118 7

March 11 1973 Tape No. 400 NM - l haa been established since January 19, 1972, to eerve reeidents of any commtmities within the electoral District of St. Barbe South. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. F. ROWE: Sir, in the absence of the honourable Mini~ter of Education, I would like to address a question to the honourable the Acting Premier. In view of the news that I have just heard concerning the Premier's preference for a C01111llunity college in Stephenville and for a regional college :in Corner Brook, can the honourable Acting Premier indicate when this is to take place, when the building is to start? MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable Acting Premier, could the honourable Acting Premier infonn the House what action the govenunen t has taken to prevent Canadian National from rearranging thei r red, white and blue fares? MR. HICKMAN: The government has taken a great deal of action.

As the honourable member for Bell Island is aware and the members of tbis House ara ~ware, an application was made, indeed it started during the term of office of the previous administration and we renewed the instructions and s ince then we have opposed the application before the Board of Collllllissioners of Public Utilities, we are now opposing the appeal to the Supreme Court of Newfol.Uldland and that is where the matter rests at this time. MR. WOODWARD..:_ Mr.

Speake r, in the absence of the honourable the Premier, I would like to d:!.rect a, ques tion to the Actinp.; Premier. !sit customary in the Province of N~wfoundland, when you set up a royal commission to investigate certain aspects of the economy or the aspects of standards of living in this prov:f.nce , to invite the media and to have the chairman of that particular collll'Qission 1188

•1arch 1, 1973 Tape No, 400 NM - 2 'fll. Hf\ODNARn: give releases to the media befor e sublllission or a report is made to the government?

Do you make i t public to the media, what has taken place at different hea r ings , before the suhmission is made to the government? '1!..:_ !!lC.K\IAN: That is not a question but whether it 1s customary or not, 1 am sure the booourable member for Labrador North is fully aware that this administration has not had anything l ike the experience with royal commissions of the previous administration and it i~ only in times of dire necessity that a royal commission is set up or when there should be an overall study of a paticular facet of our society.

But surely it could not be incumbent upon any government having appoint~d a roya l commission, to then dictate to the royal commission as to how they should operate. \fR. WOODWARD: Supplementary question to the Acting Premier, "Ir . Spe.-aker, What is the purpose of a co11JIRission to make a suhmission to government in the event that all the hear in~s prior to this submission is made public through the media and the press? "!'R. RICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, so that there could be no misuoderscanding ahout royal commissions, l woul.d think that any royal commi.ssion to function properly should hold as many public meetings as possible. shou l <I invite as many of the publ ic to participa t e, t o make. representation. The procedure that 1s followed by the commission surely must be the exclusive prerogative of the chairman and the members of the commission . Whilst I sugges t , Mr.

Speaker, that that type of questioning might be quite beyond the rules, I have no hesitancy in setting forth the govemment 's view of noninterference with the cononission and to say that I welcome any commission that tries to attain maximum public participation. 1189

'larch 1, 1973 Tape No. 400 ID1 - J MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: If I may ask the Minis ter of Manpower and Industrial Relations the precise hour 1190

March 1, 1973 Tape 401 ·™ - 1 Mr. ~eary: and date the minister is ?,oint to table the llattenhauer Royal Commi!Ss{nn Renart on safety and health hazards in the Erco phosphorous plant? Is the minister ~oinP. to answer the question? HR. DA!~: __ Yes we will table it Monday. MR. _NEARY: In my opinion t:hat is contempt for this House. The minister has a pres~ conference called for four o'clock on Monday afternoon and he is r,oing to table the report at three o'clock. MR. g~~F~R.: Order please ! ~- NEARY: This is discourteous. Mr.

Speake r . ~ .!.. _SPE_4J(_ER: The hon. member for Be.11 Island did not ask a question and tbii; is a auestion oerio1l and he is out of order. ORDERS OF THE DAY: }(otion, second reading of a bill , "An Ac.t Resf)ecting The Department Of Industrial Development." !i_ON ._£:_W..:__Q_OODY(MPHSTF.F. OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): ~r . Speaker. this bill sim~lv is to form a Department of Industrial Development which in effect would take the place of the previous Department of Economic Development the differences being in the structure of the department as well as in the nt.Jlllbers of divisions.

S0J11e of the divisions in the previous department have l>een transferred to other departments of ROVernme.nt and 1.n order to get on with the industrial development of the province it has been decided to create this new department which would deal exclusively with development matters. To'-ard this end a structurin~ chart has been pre~ared and this ROVert1111ent is now in the process of recruitin~ staff and ~ettin~ this departl!lent undenvay. MR. RO\ffl(W.N.); Mr. Sl)ea.ker, this like all the other bills which will probably come before the House today is mere.ly to ~organize the ~overnment.

I just looked briefly through the bill and I do not see the power of the minister to enter into agreements. 1 am just wonderin2 if the minister when he replies can mention whether or not in this act 1191

March 1. 1973 Ta-pe 401 the minister has -power to enter into agre ements for more than one year. It maybe in tbe act but ordinarily I think a m1n1ster can only enter into an ·agreement for one year. Is that the situation? MR. ROBERTS: Unless legis1ation says otherwise, MR. ROWE(W.N.): Unless legislation says otheNise but I a~ just wondering. It is my Problem as I have not had II ch~nce to look a t this particular bill and I was 1ust wonderin~ if th~ ,inis ter happens to know that himself. Re mi~ht answer that when he is reolyin~. In any event, M~.

Speaker. oohody on this side and 1 suppose nobody in the House has any ~rave objections to this b:f.11 or anv other bill like it. In itself it is a hamless enou~h exercise. We are sta~dinP up here no~ today and seeing a reor ganization of the r.overnment, t-le have no ob1ection to the hill itself or to anv of tlle other hills in themselves but what we do have an ob_jection to is what this bill and the other hills which will be comin~ up symbolize .

I t SV!!'holizes ir. our o~inion and in my ooinion a full year having gone by and with the excention of a statement t~e other day by the Premier concerninP. e ~ew oil refinery followinr, in the footsteps of the pr evious administration which laid all the ~roundwork this hill symbolizes and the other bills svmbolize the sum total of active work of this ~overnnent , this present adrninjstration in the past twelve or fourteen l'loriths . Atl 'lO_tl_ ._ JT~~~~: (Inaudible) • "']>. ~('l_l'.E(_~ .E_-l: Now, ~r . Speaker, do I have the rir,ht to be heard in ,d lenc e or noti •~. SPRAKER : Order please! Order!

The hon. member has the ri,iht to be heard in silence. t,ffl.ROWF.(W .NJ..: }fr , Speaker. it is our submission that tbe time of this ~overnment has been unduly wasted on something which could have been accomplished, if indeed it needed to be accomplished, without all the 1192

March 1, 1973 Tape 401 JM - 3 fuss and furor, without the tying up of governmen t officials day and night for several months, without tyin~ up draftsmen who are in verv short supply down in the Department of Justice who could have been workin~ on other more essential legislation and without tvin~ up ministers like thf' Minister of Finance I sur>pose who was involved in it and other ministers, without tying up these mpn's talents which should have been ~oin~ towards getting industrial rlevelopment and other develop111ent i:,;oin~ in this 1>rovince . !!hat we have seen in the past year or so has been to date,with one exception whic h we have already welcomed, a dismal fai lure on the nart of this admin.1.stra t ion to p,et any develop111ent or to make any si~nificant or o~ress in solvin~ the real problems facin~ the Newfoundland peoole.

I understand f rom the ~rapevine that for example a DREE pro,rramme may be si~ned fairly soon. T understand from talking to some officials in Ottawa.without them havin~ obviouslv givin~ me any information but I would submit that such a progrmmne would have been si2oed months earlier and would havP. hait ~reater benefit to our people if it were not for the fact that the ~overnment of this province has spent all its time on this kind of needless or if nnt needless then hardly tremendously essential leµslation .

I would submit that when such thinl!s as DR.EE agreements are finally siY.neit and presented to this House they will show 1. oathetic lack of application on the part of the ~overnment and the ministers concerned because a~ain the time of themselves and the important officials o f the government have been needlessly tied up with this type of bureaucracy and red tape which the Premier has hailed as a ~reat si~nificant step forward.

Certainly something like this probably needecl to he done after twenty odd years of govertllllent since Confederation but for it to cake up the time and enerr.y of the government, to take up that time and energy as the Premier bas admitted, so many man hours of 1193

'far ch 1, 1971 Tii.pe 401 -~ - 4 worl, was out into it by ministers ,ind officialR alil>P to take 111> tliat time and enerizy to me is a trav,,stv of the real rolP of a ~overnment in Newfoundland which is sure ly to try to P.et indus trial develonment, to try to ~et rural development, create jobs for our people and cope with some of the real problems facin~ the government in the field of education and in other fields, health and other fields similar, social welfare fields. Now that is the only comment I have to make,Mr. Speaker, and the comnent will apply equally to all these departmental hills .

There is nothing objectionable about the bills themselves. Thev can qo through very quickly and they can go through committee very quic ~ly without any amendments or otherwise.

But as a whole, taken as a whole they indicate and svmbolize to the neople of Newfoundland that the priorities of this ~overn.ment, to use their own favorite word, ~re hone lessl y lopsided, indeed topsv-tnrvy and that they should have oeen spendin~ their time on much more important thinrs tban this type of thing which as I think my hon. collea~ue said, my friend.the Leader of the l)pposition,said when the Premier made his announcement,that that could have been done over a bottle of scotch with two or three civil servants and a couple of m.ini sters,.in one weekend. find ~et a draftsman to do the work.

Instead it took ur the time of the ~overnment for many months anc! that time c-oulcl have been used for much better purnoses. ~-. NE~RY: 'fr . Sneak.er. as rov hon. c-.olleap.ue has {'Dinted out, it took the government fourteen months to accomplish this ~ran diose scheme they call restructur tng. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR._~: The on1y significant annnuncement /IS my hon. collea~ue pointed oul and rightly so,w as the announcemen t on the oil refinery , Sir, and this was a vote of confidence in the previous Llberal Administration . 1194

March 1, 1973 Tape 401 AN HON. MEMBER: llear! Hear! MR.}!~:~~-~: Sir, I do not want to tease the hon. Minister of Finance too much today because I think he is coming off a bad trip. JM - 5 It is very easy, very easy, Mr. Speaker, for this r,ovenmtent to follow along a trail that has been cut for them. The Minister of Finance was one of the culprits who went around this province - MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

On a point of order, I would submit that the remarks ' made by the hon. ~ember for Bell Island with respe ct to the alle~ed general course of business of the government and his rel!larks pertaininp to the Minister of Finance in other ar,reements are not relevant to the priuci:ple of this bill which is to establish a Department of Industrial Development. ~BERTS: To the point of order, Mr. ~Peaker . I submit that they are relevant. They may be unpalatable to the r,entleman opposite hut that does not make thE!!'l irrelevant.

The principle of this hiJJ , Sir. is to establish a new department and my colleague is sayin~ that in his view the establishment of a new department - in order tn prese,-,t his argument be is merely referrin~ to this as part of the governwent's over,il l pat t ern , their policy, $1r. Ru~ ~his is " r,nmplete m,ste of time and 1 submit that that is completely relevant t~ the ar~ent with respect to the principle of this bill, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: I feel too that the hon. member for Eell Island is not being as relevant as perhaps he should to this particular bill. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker , I will get straight to the point, I wi11 go right for the juggler. Restructuring, Sir, in my opinion, is expensive, inefficient and an obstruction to the people and their elected representatives, It will not put brea d on the people's tables today nor will it do anything to improve life in this province. In my opinion, Mr. Sneaker, it does not make any difference whether these bills, the 1195

Mar ch l, 1973 Tape 401 whole lot of them paaa or are defeated.. It does not 111ake the ,slightest bit of difference as they will do absolutely nothing to help our people. MR, ROBBRTS: Mr. Speaker, my col.leagues have stated v ery eloquently and very effectively the position which we will take with respect to all of these bills. MR.. CROSBIE: Marvellou pi.eces of oratory, MR. ROBERTS: Yes they were , Mr. Speaker. and the hon. the Mini.ster of Finance who bas a habit of trying to bully this Bouse - . MR. SPEAKER: Ord!!r please: MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman, the Minister of Finance has a habit of trying to bully this House. They were very effective pieces of oratory. i would commend them tc ll1m because they also had the rtrtue of brevity and relevance,' Most of hi$ speeches have neither, Sir. The question J-196 J'H - 6

March 1, 1973 Tape 402 lB-1 I would ask of the minister in respect of the bill hefore the House. Sir, oerhans he could deal with it in hts clos1nR sneech. The clause to which I refer, Sir, is to he fo11nc~or sim:iJiar clause ,in aJ 1 of the h1 lls whiclt will come under this reneral restructuring rusine,ss. It is clause (12) 1n the bill in question. Clause (12) and then clause (13) with reference to a power conferred upon the minister tn enter 1nt" agree.ments.

It ~fves the ~inister quite wide power as Tread it I rlo nnt nretend, Mr. 5peaker, to be offerln~ a le?,al opinion al thoui::h Perhaps t'he Minister of Justice who is not in the chamber hut i11. I "one. within ear<:hot or one of the nthe r learned 11:entlemen on the other 1Si.rle could Rive us a legal opininn on this. The questJon, $i r, Js whether these powers tn (12) and (13) anrl then subsid3arv powers in (14) and (15)­ AN _ _!{O~OlrRABLE ),ffMRER: Inaudible. :':R_,_~011,F.RT~.: Well, I do not think it haia t-een. Tf it has hee", it ,:;'io11Jcl not have hP.en.

The question r have, Sir, and 1 would a!'llr if the }1ousP could rPceive an oninion fTom one of the learned gen tlPmen {n the minif'tTv. the lolinister of Justi.ce, the 1?entlem an frnm St. John's F.11at7 (12) and (13) refer to the oower of the minister to make ap.reernents and the question ts whether such agreements can be made for a perfod of more than one year. Now, there is a orincinle in our constitutional law in Newfoundland, Sir. I do not ~now if it is unioue to !';ewfoundland but it is in Newfotmdland la~,.

It was estahl111hecl hy the privy council when that was the f1n11l Court of Appe.al for Newfoundland, established , 1 believe around the turn of the century. I suspect it was one of the cases rising , out of the various aj!;reements hetween the government and the Reid Tntet"ests . There was considerable controversy over those arld several of them ended up in the Privv Council in London which was then the highest court tn our land. I do not know if London was in our land but it was still tJie hil!:hest court for our law . The principle is clear, Mr. Speake'l".

The prtnciple is that the government,and the government would include any minister or every mini.ster, may not and shall not mak.e any agreement 1197

February 28, 1973 Tape 402 IB-2 that has power for more than one year without specific legis lative authorization. Now- a minister may get that authorization, Mr. Speaker,or the government may get it in at least three ways, either by a specific bill, as for example the agreements with mineral companies. · The tentative Minister of Mines and Energy administeJ'.!I · an nwnber of acts, agreements between the government and various mineral or mining companies. These are often ot usually for periods of more than one year. Each of them is a separate statute.

Each of them the • House has looked at and said , they shall be - you know, that the House approved of it. A second way in which the minister or the government may get this power is through a vote in the estimates. That is not usual but it can be done. The estimates may - the estimates are legislation , they ar e embodied in the l~w by the Supply iills and by the Appropriation Acts - the estimates may confer t hat far . That is not usual but it can be done constitutionallv. The third way is if the act or

an act, a generic act not a soecific one but a broad one ~ives the minister or a minister the oower. As I re.ad clauses {12) and (13) 3:11d as my colleague and friend from White Bay South reads them, they appear to confer this power upon • the minister. I may say, if they do• we would not be ha{>py with that unless there is some reason . A similiar clause may well have heen - well, the gentleman from Placentia West who is at least as able a lawyer as I will ever be - I mean, all I want is some ~ssurance from some minister that it does not confer that power.

I mean, if it is not dntended - but J want an assuranee from some member of the ministry that the principle is - all I am doing is stating a question, I realize that lam being long about it but it is a complicated question, I am not trying to make a legal argument. I am t rying to ~ut it in relativel y lay terms. If it is the intention of the ministry,fine. I appreciat e what the gen tleman from Placentia West says that it is not their intention and the House Leader, I think, seems to indicate that as well. lfuat I would l~ke though, Mr.

Speaker, what we would like is an assurance t hat these words do not go beyond the intention . Intention is ·1198

March 1, 1973 , Taoe 402 TB-3 one thing, Sir,but a year or ten vears from now when this le91slation is being looked at, it i~ not the intention of the minister or the ministry that counts; it is the words which are made law, So I ask the mini5ter if he would deal wit~ this in closin~ the debate. The same question would apply equally to almost all of the hills for this restructuring exercise because all they are, Mr. Speaker, ts a carbon copy with the name of the department chan~ed.

I mean, they could have been run off in xerox fonn with just blanks and the name of the department and the name of the minister filled in. That 1s the way it is. That is fine, Since the question will apolv t o all of them,perhaps the minister could deal with it and if one or more of the learned gentlemen ooposite could give us a specific assurance, we would be grateful • . ?-IR._ ~1ARSHALL: The honou r able t'1e 111itlister has deferred, He would Hke me to answer the questi on, Mr. SpP.alcer.

The point is well taken . r1rst of all I can assure this House that it is-not the intention in anv of these restructuri ng bills to extend the 1>owera of any m:lnister over and above that which the minister now has unde'C' the established law which the honourable the Leader of the Opposit ion oointed to.

Now, as I read section (12) of the bill, power to ente.r into any agreement shall include power to amend any such agreement from time to time, If the approval of the Lieu~enant C-.overnor-in-Council for the original a~reement is required~such approval 1s also required for amending agreement in the act, This is,sectlon (12) and (13) 1 believe is the- MR. ROBERTS: The minister just read (14). (12) is arreement, Bill No 37, they are all the same. MR. ~_ARSHALL: It is Bill No. 37 , MR. ROBERIS: There are agreements with the governmen t that show no relevance. MR.

MARSHALL; I can assure the Leader of the Opposition that that is not tile intention. It does not extend, Mr. Speaker. That 1• all I can sav is it dne~ nnt extend the powers of the minister over and above the 1199

!-larch 1, 1973 Tape 402 IB-4 normal powers conferred upon any minister of the crown ~a they presently exists. The bill principally restructures the functions of the minister, defin es the function of the minister and is not intended that - in actual fact the minister usually and pretty well always acts in conjunction with ~he Lieutenenant Governor-in-Council and very, very rarely are the agreements that would be entered into-.other than if they are specifically provided in the act itself, where an individual minister would act. So there is absolutely no intention whatsoever. As I read (10) and

(11) I would t-,elcome if the honourable the Leader of the Opposition would like to point specifically to the clauses which oart1cularily trouble him. Perhaps we could deal with it now or in committee whichever he wishes. MR. ROBERTS: If the minister would permit a question, Mr, Speaker. I think we should deal with it at some point once~because whatever is arrived at will apply to all the legislation 1200

March l, 1973, Tape 403, Pagel -- apb The clauses which concern 111e - I was referrin g to a different bill. There are so many of these, not all the same, but the clauses will be found in each bill, Sir. In bill No, (37) it ts clause (lla) which ~ivesthe tninister power to enter into an agreement, any agreement for promoting any of the objects of this act, It is a fairly wide power. I accept the minister 's assurance that that 1s not to confer upon the minister any power th~t a minister does not now have.

I wonder if the minister would take i.nto advisement the desirability of insertin g in each of these bills a clause perhaps to that effect, because, as the minister knows, a court will take no notice of what we may say here, they will look only to the Statute Law. MR. ~ARSHALL: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, there will be no objection whatsoever, It is not the intenti.on of the government as I say to increase the powers, So when we get into committ£e on these acts, we can perhaps provide an 3.lllendment,a proviso ' in the act,to the effect that nothing in the particular

section or in the act shall be construed in any way to widen the ~owers of the particular minister to enter into agreements other than to retain the nowers that the minister already bas. MR. ROBERTS: For each of the bills? MR. MARSHALL: For each of the bills, yes , MR. ROBERT~ Will you try to get the Department of Justice to work on them? MR.MARSHALL: We will get working on them. MR. DOODY: My honourable colleague wanted to talk about all the hours l put in ~n, restructuring, however, I do not think I will bother. I do not think the honourable member for Bell Island would be impressed anyway• so - MR. W.N.ROWE: Nor the honourable leader. MR. 'DOODY: That is right. 1201

March 1, 1973, Tape 403, Page 2 - apb MR. DOODY: I thank the honourable Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues for bringing this to our attention. It is certainly not my desire nor intent to have any more power than anybody else has ever had, nor do I welcome that. MR. ROWE: (inaudible) ~IR.. DOODY: That is more, that is absolutely ample and then some. I would hope that this amendment will get in there and I have very little else to say about this bill except to hope that it will go through nicely, nicely.

On motion a bill , "An Act Respecting 'Ihe Department Of Industrial Development, " read a second t:lllle. ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently. Motion, second reading ·of a bill, "An Act Respectin1t The Department Of Social Services." (No. 39) . MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, this is a bill and perhaps there are more changes :ln this than there in the others because we have three or four former ministers of welfare as such in the Tiouse readin~ the bill and being aware of what is happenin~ and there are certain areas of this department that have been separated.

I do not want to go into them all, because I think everybody is familiar with the thing. All I ask :i.s that anybody who has any sugiestions Ot' anything on thil! bill, you know, if they want to put it fo-rward• I •think the proposal made by the honourable Leader of the Opposition will apply to all sections, relevant to all 'the bills. 1 do not think t here is anythin~ else.quite frankly.

The bill here is written out and I could read it all, read the side notes and perhaps lecture for three and a-half hours on the thing, but in view of the t:lllle it took to restructure perhaps we might cut down on the time in introduction~ Okay: If any one has any ' q_uestions, 1 will answer them to the best of my ability. The fact of doing this is not to underrate in any way the great part this department plays. I think that everybody is aware that 1202

March 1, 1973, Tape 403, Pag~ 3 -- apb it is a vecy sensitive and very necessary department and that is all I c:an say. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, this is a sort of jovial ''jolly giant' day. I would commend the minister reading the bill, at least that would have been the first time that it had been read, but our position is unchanged. This does not in any way, Sir, affect the ongoing - as we see it, the stuff and substance, the pith and substance of the public business of this province~ if the ministry feel that ~his is the way they wish to orianize the Government of this Province,then so be it.

I can only add tha t I was at a luncheon today ,over here at Holiday Inn,m.th the Commerce and Rotary Clubs. At the Rotary Club luncheon, Mr. Jamieson ~poke , to the commerce students from Memorial. the Mi.nister Designate of Tourism was there and maybe some other honourable gentleman. I was passed a auestionnaire by a student in the commerce faculty and I was asked just .as an individual to fill it out, mayhe honourable gentlemen opposite have it. One of the questions that intrigued me, said;, ''Do you think the restructuring should be changed?

If so, m.11 you agree that it will be changed?" 1 did_ not answer that one. I thought that would be most unfair as leader of the party which wi ll have to take over this _government in .a while and deal with it then. MR. MURPRY: You will be a much older man. MR. ROBERTS: I shall be at least three years older~ Mr. Speaker. unless they m.sh to call an election today. It is March month. MR. MURPHY: Unless Clyde decides to announce - MR. ROBERTS: .Was it a year ago . today that Bill Saunders did it or was done? !!!l~~J.:.. I hear Cl yde is sharpening his bow and arrow out there. Mil.

SPEAKER: Order! ~- ROBERTS: One at a time, I do uot 111ind, Mr. Speaker, the interjections, but one at a time please! Who 1a up next at bat? 1203

March 1, 1973, Tape 403, Page 4 -- apb MR.MORPHY: I said Clyde is working very hard on the ~est Coast ­ MR. ROBERTS: I certainly hope he is, Re is not working any hardey than the various factions on the other side are working and I welcome it. Indeed, I very much hope that the gentleman in question ~r. Wells.who added considerably to the lustre of this House,will again sit in this House. Re will, he will sit here as a minister, he may even sit here as Premie r some day. I certainly hope so, I certainly hope so. That would make him about the 420th. person look ing for my job. AN RON. MEMBER: He has you vorried eh?

MR. W.N.ROWEt Re has picked up his ticket. He is standing in line now. MR. ROBERTS: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, all these bills as far as we are concerned will go through ve~ quickly. If each of the ministers speak as distinctly and as much to the point as the gentleman from St. John's Centre, the Minister Designate of Social Assistance, then we vill speak at least as distinctly and indeed - we can hardly put them through emnasse, but if th.at were proper I would be quite prepa red to do that because 1 think they are utterly unimportant to the business of this province, Sir. MR.

MORPHY: Short and sweet like a donkey's kick. On motion a b.111, ';Ah Act Respect!~ The' Department Of Social Services, lt read a second ti111e ordered Teferred to a Committee of the ~ole Rouse presently,by leave, On motion , second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The Departlllent of Fishe ries." (No. 49) . HON. R.L.CHEESEMAN: Mr, Speaker, this act is a rewriting of the duties and the different functions of the depart:lllent, it spells out in more 4etail than the old act which it replaces.

Esaent.:iAl.ly it does not have too much effect or change within the department with perhaps one nota~le exceotion and that is the establishment of two assistant deputy ministers rather than one1 being in the areas of service 1204

March 1, 1973, Tape 403, Pa~e 5 - apb and development. Essentially , it covers all of the points that were covered in the old act and spells out in more detail the individual duties, but that is about the full intent of the bill. As usual , Mr. Speaker, there is no more t o this than the other bill. /Is a matter of curiosity, will the minister tell us what it is ~oing to cost to retire the Deputy ~inister of Fisheries?

How much it is going to cost the taxpayers of this province to put hiln out to pasture on full salary? and the other deputies that are hein~ rec.ired On motion, a bill, "An Act Resnectin~ The Department Of 'Fisheries . read a second tilne, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House nresently, by leave. On motion, second reading of a bill; ''An Act l'pi;pectinr The Department Of ~fanpower And Industrial Relations . 1 RON. W.G.DAWE:_ 1-'r. Speaker, I am glad to have the concurrence of the honourable ~entlemen on the other side and therefore feel that i t is perhaps not necessary to elaborate.

Therefore , 1 move second readinr, of the bill. On motion, a bill; "An Ket Respecting The Department Of Manpower And Industrial Rel,ations. '' read a second time, ordered r~fen ed to a Committee of the Whole House presently, by leave. On motion, second reading of a bill; "An Act Respec·tin11: The Department Of Public Works And Services. '1 (No. 40) • / RON. R.R..V.EAB.LE: ~r. Spealter, this bill is merely the necessary legislation to set up the new Department of Public Works and Services which is of course a combination of the old departments of 1205

March 1, 1973 Tape no. 404 Pagel - MRW Public Works and the Deparbnent of Supply and Services. There aTe really no essential changes in this legislation. There is one clause in the new act which has to do with equitable purchases and I think the House Leader would like to have something to say on this during the discussion, on the clause by clause of the bill.

It might be in order for me at this time to point out one thin~ which is clearly stated in the bill and as a matter of fact it was always there but seetllS to have escaped the public's attention and that is the fact that both in Supply and in Public Works, all tenders are subject to public opening. Questions have been asked in this House many times as to why tenders were not open to the public. This is definitely stated and is the practice in the.se depa.rtm~nts.

The facts of the matter are that in Public Works when tenders for public works are called, usually people collie to these tenders, when the tenders are open, That is not the case in Supply because although bidders are notified, it is ve.y rarely that any one attends the public opening. The opportunity is there for !:hem to come if they .lal'ant to but they do not came and perhap,s tllis has fallen into some misuse or nonuse by the fact that nobodv . attends but the provision 1s in the act and has been there and is in the new legislation that all tenders be open publicly. MR. NE.ARY: Mr.

Speaker, there are various ways to have public op-etiings of tenders and the honourable adnister 111entioned one there in introducing this bill • . But that is not my idea, Sir, of opening tenders in public. What the honourable minister means is that a date is set for submitting tenders, tender& are sent in, they are put in a vault or put away somewhere in a draw, in a filing cabinet and then on a certain date the various companies that ·have tendered are told that, well, we are opening the tenders today.

God only knows and I am not overly suspicious, Sir, but -nobody knows what has happened to these tenders in the 111eantime. What I would 1206

March l , 197.3 Tape no.404 Page 2 Mr. Neary. like to see , Mr, Speaker, in this province, when we talk about opening tenders in public, is that a date will be set for receiving public teuders. Each individual or company or corporation or firm or businesses or whoever are tendering, will arrive at a specified place, at a specified time.with the tender in his hand, Mr, Speaker, aM there will be an independent board sitt:ing around a table and the tenders will be open , Mr . Speaker, right in front of that independent committee.

This is, Sir, openin~ tenders ln public , The procedure that the minister outlined, Sir, is just a farce, It is a farce! I nope, Mr. Speaker, that during this session, when I get rld of that ~cLean 's resolution,off the Order Paper, l will bring a resolution into this Rouse spelling out the policy of th~ Liberal opposition, the Liberal Party of this Province on vhat we ~ean as public tendering . We will open up the minster's eyes for him. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. 111elllher foT St. John's East. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I hesitate to destroy in any way" the air of unanimity in this House this afternoon.

I cannot let the conversion of the hon. member for Bell Island go unnoted by this honourable House. Ue 1s actually going to bring in a petition with respect to public tendering, the public tendering for the purchase of goods. Let us have a look, Mt:, Speaker, for· just one little moment~at the provis~ons and the great reforms that are wrought by this bill of Public Works and Supply, which ought to have been enacted, not just during the few yea-rs'-sojourn of the hon. member for llell Island and some of his colleagues when they were in government but since 1949, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR.

MARSHALL: That is the conveTSion as a new leader. We heard, Mr. Speaker, from the previous gov~rnment that goods were purchased They proudly presented. Mt. Speaker, a certain little brochure called "A 1207

March 1, 1973 Tape no. 404 Page 3 Swmnary o~Purchasing Procedures of the Department of Supply and Services." When we were occupying the seats on the other side of the House, Mr. Speaker, some of the honourable gentlemen there opposite were over here, we brought into this honourable House, when we were in oppositioo,

an act entitled, "An Act With Respect To The Equitable Purchases By Government Act, 11 a bill, because it uever was enacted into

an act because it was voted on by the melllbers theu present , including the hon. member for Bell Island, and was turned down. Under their system - let us just look at their particular system. It was in a nice little white book but the practices were not exactly the same as the colour of their particular production. They talked about the fact in their book.let that it to,as impossible, the procedure stated: "it was impossible to call tenders with respect to the purchases by government.'' They said.

"the department invites competitive tenders (in their little booklet) Wh'!!rever possible." Ilowever public tenders were not required to be called because they said that the multitude of the items purchased would render advertising costs prohibitive. Instead a tender listing was maintained, a list of people who were submitting tenders, to which any competent firm could be added upon receipt of an appropriate letter of request. This -was lovely and makes a lovely statement and it was set out in great diction in this particular pamphlet but, Mr. Speaker, , competitive bids were not in fact called.

They went on to say thatwben an item was required 1 the Department of Supply then called tenders from listed firms located in the vicinity of the customers establishment concerned. The booklet notes that to be eligible to participate firms must be established in their particular line as bona fide suppliers and must be capable of complying with "departmental contractural requirements,i• The booklet goes on to state, this great booklet, this bible of 1208

March l, 1973 Tape no. 404 Page 4 the Liberal Government:. that the department will give as much information as possible to an inquiring unsuccessful tenderer . It sets forth a procedure whereby a photostatic copy of the actual ordeT issued to the successful tenderer wouJd be mailed to tbe inquirer. Now it was obvious to ·us. Mr. Speake r , when we came to goveTillllent that this procedure was completely inadequate and left the ,-,,ay open for abuse. There -was no provision for the p-ublic call for tenders, the public opening of tenders and- the manner of the tender called.

We will give examples of abuse, little examples, not individuals, we will not talk about individuals but we will talk about products.inanimate objects rather animate objects. What happened was, they used to cal.1 for tender by their brand names, Mr. Speaker and by model numbers and hence we were greeted with a practice that had been adopted for twenty-three years despite their little white booklet, despite the gre·at words that they issue now, we wer~ greeted with a practice whereby tenders were being called for pop-up toasters, Westinghouse H-T, 64.

We were greeted by practices which called for tenders for automatic washers,(white). There is nothing wrong with calling for a tender for an automatic washer, (white) but .it went on to say, kelvinator, cat. (what ever that means) catalogue number, KW 640 or equal. They went on again. We had tenders called for desks, desks that could be made of wood and nails and what have you, brand names were used for desks, competitive tenders. The hon. member for Bell Island is going to give us a lesson in how to call for competitive tenders . MR. NEARY: Talk about Heap & Partners. MR. MARSHALL: What we did, Mr.

Speaker, the cabiJ:.iet directed as soon as it got in '(this government do things quietly but effectively) that no longer should there be under any circumstances any call for tenders under brand names or models. This required an illlJllediate re-organization in the Department of Supply. 1209

March 1, J.973 Tape No. 405 N'M - 1 md ~.as very c:-apably dil:ec:ted by the then Min.is:t.eY o f Snpply now Minister of Manpower, except in very specific circumstances such as for example, if a doctor ordered a drug by a brand name. well we poor mortals could not and would not fool arotmd with a drug beinR called by a brand name. Bu~ no longer are tenders called or will tenders be called by brand names for refrigerators and washing machines and I do not know what purpose they were called, for what reason , I can only leave it to the supposition of the honourable members in this honourable House.

So the position taken by the previous goveroment, despite what the honourable member for Rell Island says, is that it was impractical to call public tenders and this was completely and absolutely untenderable as far as we were concerned. It is not the position which was maintained by this administration when it was in opposition and the calling of public tenders can be practically implemented. All you have to do is look around at other provinces. In Nova Scotia there is

an act comparable to the sections in part (3) of this act, in the Department of Public Works and Supply. In Nova Scotia there is

an act which provides for purchasing by public tender, as in most democratic systems there are acts of this nature, of supplies except in the case of emergency when there is only one available source of supply or where the amount involved exceeds $1,000 or it appears impractical to invite tenders. That . is the law in Nova Scotia. A safeguard vas provided in that act that where purchases are made without inviting tenders~ as could occur where there is an emergency, wbere the amount is a negligible amount, where there :ts only one source of supply,the safeguard put in was that all such purchases should be reported to the Auditor General within fifteen days of being made. 1210

March 1, 1973 Tape N'o. 405 NM - 2 Now having seen that ill opposition, as I say, we brought in a bill called" A Rill, 'An A.ct to Provide for the Equitable Purchases Of Government.'" We prevailed upoo the government of that day, we begged them ,to introduce it and now the honourable gentleman on the other side ~ho a r e I conferring advice upon us as to what to do with public tende r, who spend their days trying to paint us as black as they think they vere, they now have the unmitigated gall to sit on the other side of the HoU$e and give us an example of what to do.

Now if the honourable the member for Bell Island wishes to Tefer and read the acts which are presented to him, in part (3) he will see a

section with respect to a gove1:T1ment purchasing agency, which in effect implements the provision of that previous bill Bow sweet it is , Mr. Speaker, to be in goverrunent now and 1 can reasonably predict that this particular bill and this particular proVi.sion ,;,il.l be g-reeted with a lot more enthusiasm than it vas two years ago. But enoqgh of that castigating the past, let us look ahead to the future and see what happens, MR. NEARY: Now you are ttlking, MR. MARSHALL: The Lieutenant · Governor-in-Councii may es tabllsh a branch of the public service to be known as the government purchasing agency.

It sets up a government .purchasing agency , It gives power to appoint a director of purchases, he is called, That person is given · security of tenure in the same manner as the Auditor General and the Comptroller of the Tl:easury is given security. His salary is paid from the Consolidated Revenue Fund in order to give him protection with respect to his actions. In ether words, he becomes a servant of the House, It provides 1211

March l, 197l Tape No, 405 NM - 3 that all purchases will be made by means of inviting tenders with certain exceptions tbat I shall mention in detail in a moment, h public advertisment means in this business an adverctsment in the public presE :1nd for the purposes of this act , the public press is deemed to include the'Newfoundland Gazette1 1 This is in order to attempt to keep the expenditure down as low as possible .

"The Newfoundland Gazette 11 is a government organ, oot like the"Newfoundland Bulletin ''but it is a reputable government organ that any businessman in this province can subscribe to and can get the information that he requires. Tenders will be called for the supplies .

But there are exceptions, the same way as in the other act,with respect to t he dispensing of calling of tenders, where the need is one of pressing urgency, where there is only one available source of supply and where the amount does not exceed $1,000 and it appears to the director now, the independent director, not to a politician but co the director, that in view of the nature of the purchase that it is not practical to invite tenders. that is.where it is under $1,000 .

As an added safeguard, before purchasing in thac case , he shall obtain prices from at least three bona fide dealers, he shall establish a fai r and reasonable price in the event that there is only one sonrce of supply and furthermore, not later that the fifteenth day of each month, the director shall make a report to the Auditor General of every purchase of services made during the preceeding month without inviting tenders where the amount of the purchase exceeded $1,000 after inviting tenders but where the purchase was not made from the person submitting the lowest tender~and the Auditor General is constrained to report to this Rouse,as the Auditor General has from time to time , 1212

March 1, 1973 Tape No, 405 NM - 4 So there we have it, Mr. Speaker, 1n black and white. When we were in opposition we talked about public tenders, when we are in govenment we are over bere implementing a procedure w~th respect to public tender. It has become a great practice by the people on the other side of the Rouse and their adherence to try to paint us as black as I say, they feel they, and 1 am not saying that they were, but as they obviously feel with their guilty conscience that they were. It just does not work, Mr. Speaker. The bill which will become

an act in a very short period of time speaks for itself . MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member fo~ Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD! :-tr. Speaker, 1 agree with the principle of the particular bill . I can see some great inconvenience that this particular bill will cause to certain sections of this particular province, I feel in all legislation that is brough~ into this honourable House, it should first be applicable to all aspects and all secto~s of this particular province .

This particular bill, Sir, does not lend itself to certain aspects of purchasing in the ProYince of Newroundland and Labrador. l have bad great, great co~cern. 1 have had m.any disturbed moments because of the fact that we have Supply and Services and it' will now becotne Public Works and Services purchasing subsistence and food for the livelihoods of a number of people on the Labrador Coast. l have stated in this House and I have stated on a number of occasions that the system that was set up md the system that this particular bill provides is too rigid to lend itself to that particular agency and I will cite you a number of cases, Mr.

Speaker, a number of cases maybe where the honourable 111inisters at the time were not concerned witb the 1213

March 1, 1973 Tape No. 405 NM - 5 particula r phase of their responsibility . What I am referring to is the purchasing for retail stores, goveTnment retail stores, where the cost is party borned by the government in Ottawa and t he retail s t OTes are administered by now the Department of Recreation and Rehabilitation.

We have suffered t remendously because of the fact that the supplies that went out for public tender, there were t i me limits set on the supplies, times were not co-ordinated with the shipment of supplies into particular areas, consequently because of t~e fact that you had t o wait for the lowest tender, or not necessarily the lowest tender in more cases than the availability of the goods , Mr. Speaker.

Our people have suffered because the goods were not supplied and not co-ordinated with the shipping schedules into Labrador, and the winter had come, navigation had closed and on a number of occasions the goods were sitting in St. John ' s when they were needed in the communities. I say this system is toa rigid, I would like for the honourable minister to take under advisement that this particular system in this particular bill is not applicable to that aspect ' and that sector 1214

March l, 1973 Tape 406 PK - l of our people. Unless there are some changes made in this particular bill,whic~ I would like to propose, Mr, Speaker,then the people of Labrador will suffer greatly as they have suffered in previous years and I am not particu larly conce med whether it was under the LibeYal Administration or whether it was under Coaker' s Administration or whether it was under Tory Administration. We cannot sit here idly in this particular Youse and bring legislation in th.at does not lend itself in the best interest of the people of our province.

This particular bill as I am sure the past Minister of Supply and ServiceR had aeen bro~ght to his attention one million times, he did not see fit to visit the area for which he served. The present minister that is going to serve this particular depart111ent has not had the interest to visit this particular area and we will suffer as we did last spring when t he supp lies were suppose to go into the northern communities in Labrador North. We sent a ship up for total supplies foy five or six communities, 560 packages.

After we heard through the media that the stores had been short ~tarting in March, there were a n1.1111ber of items, various essential items, Mr. Speaker, that were not supplied, The ship went up, the first ship that arrived there had 560 packages for the total of five communities. If you are going to supply a retail outlet, Sir, this rigid system of purchasing in this government does not lend itself to any particular reta.11 organization because it is not based on the same principles, you do not have the same continunity as you do in institution~ like supply~ng government institutions on this island.

The demands are up and down and there are more cases than one that we are running out of supplies continuously. If we have to go through the means of public tender then we are going to have to wait for bids to come in, then we are going to suffer the same now as we have done, not last year, Hr. Speaker,but you can go back to 1949 and we have been suffering with the same shortage of supp ly because the government have never felt fit to change that regulation . 1215

March 1, 1973 Tape 406 I think. the time has come now when the honourable 111in1ster and I am sure that the minister does not have the feeling or does not, I would not say he does not have the concern, maybe the honourable gentleman does have the concern, Mr. Speake r , but we have suffered greatly, The nrevious minister of Labrador Affairs I am sure will support me on thie. We have to change this syste111. Thia system of purchasing for that particular organization is obso1ete. It is no good. It should have bee~ wiped out years ago.

We should be set up on the same principle as a retail outlet or as a wholesale outlet where you have a particular person who is responsible ,when you run short of certain ftel!IB•hen you have authority to go ahead and purchase and put it into the stores so that it is available and it is there for the ~urpose that is for the people that it is meant to serve, This is a1.l 1 what to sa)' on this particular bill, Mr.

Speaker, I consider, although it is a departmental bill, there is a lot of ho~ash, rt has not been properly Tesearched and then the minister is not doing WJ justice by bringing in this rigid system of purchasing if it is going to apply to the northern services of Labrador. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my support _ to the things that rrry friend the honourable member for Labrador North has said. Re put it very well.

It is something that must come to an end this system of trying to supply a retail outlet through a government bureaucracy. 1 am su-re the people who set this up and administered it were doing so in good faith. They were quite sincere in trying to deal with the problems of Northern Labrador, but it just has not worked . I know for a fact it has not worked.

I have seen some of it happen, lam particularly concerned too at this time because that agency whicb was known-as "Labrador Services"- I am not sure what it is going to be called, they are now in the process of moving into programmes , projects in the District of Labrador South as well. AN HON. Ml'J,IBER: Inaudible, 1216

Mat'ch 1., 1973 Tape 406 PK - 3 MR. MARTIN: It is about time that happened, I think. But I do believe that it is tilne the government ROt out of the retail business. Maybe the thiug that should happen 1.8 r ~ther than keep it under the jurisdiction of &C111e depart111ent of goveTI1111ent 11111Ybe it should be made an autonomous crown corporatiotl. If we are not going to get around to doing away with patemaliSl!I that we have had to suffer through for the last 200 years, if ve must continue to have that system with us and make our people live under it, then the least we .cau, do is to make it a little easier to live with . I think it is time the government 1217

March 1, 1973 Tape 407 JM - 1 ~ot out of the retail tr-ade. 1 believe if the hon. minister wants any suggestions as to how that should be accomplished then I suggest that he ~o and talk to the people affected,~n Labrador North in particular . MR. MURPHY: I do not wish to delay the debate, Sir, but listening to the two members from Labrador I am very much incline to agree with them but the member for Labrador South urges government to get OUf of the retail business. Quite frankly I do not think govemment wants to be in there in the first place . I can see St.

Barbe Nortb and White Bay North would love to have much the sa~e kind of service where things are really supplied to them. I do not think we are in there to interfere with the private sector. I know while I was there I would certainly love for soJnebody to come and say. ''Look, we would like to take over the whole outfit basically," lrnt it is a fact that they ·are in there and the member for Labrador North particularlv I just used to sympathize with his problems there in that particular area.

As he said, we tender for thinP,s, We try to be fair in a sense, but are we being fair when we are waiting six weeks or seven or eir.ht weeks and we ~et the ~rices we want but the people do not get the r.oods they want to consume; There is a block somewhere. Out~a frankly and I would suggest this _ I know f-rom my point of vie1. and · I am sure from the new minister ,' s point of view and Mr. Ross King and the rest, I believe you should sit down and discuss these things with both members. We have extended it now, thank God, as Coastal Labrador Services. It was all Northern Labrador .

Now we can discuss rights or wrongs but on times I have had a lot ~f white people,if you like, protesting to ~e when l was minister that they ~,ere bein!'.l discriminated against. "You are doing everything for the eskimo and for the Indian but what about us people!' We talk about human rights and basically there is a lot to that because the federal 1218

March 1, 1973 Tape 407 JM - 2 government. the Department- of Northern Affairs I think we mh;ht call them. they entered into that thinp. too and there was an awful lot done for that particular part of the coast, But quite frankly now I would su~~est this, . that the ~ember for Labrador South and Labrador North , Labrador Yest is not too 111UCh concern in this issue but Coastal Lahrador. I believe if you sat ~own, put forward your ideas and in conjunction with this bill and with the minister here, heck we are only out to serve the people.

We are not out to hurt them and if we ar~,wel1 heck let us -r~solve things, come up with an idea and I am sure that the· goven,ment tomorrow if it ,,ere mentioned would be out of that just like that. Quite frankly that is my expe.rience of a few t11onths. ~-__ S_PEAKF.:R ~ If the hon. minister speaks now he closes the debate. RON_. H,R.V, EARLF.(MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS A."lD SERVICES): Mr. Speaker , I welcome the discussion on certain aspect s of this bill and particularly the views of the hon. members who have considerable exnerience in Labrador.

I might agree with the hon , minister who j ust spoke ,t:hat we are all in agreement I think on this side of the Rouse, that the hanrllin,: of supplies for Northern Labrador is one of the most unenviab le and miserable headaches that any departrnent could undertake. I do not think the hon . member for Labrador North was here the other nii;tht when I spoke on it.

Quite frankly~! think that the Department 9f Supply would welcome any other department within government that wished to take over this particular service .. taking 4.t over because it is nothin11: but a continuous series of headaches and it all comes back to the system which was in vogue some years ago whereb y because of arrangements with Ottawa in the servici~g of Indians and Eskimos in Labrador this particular function wasp~~ under social services.

I had e,cperiences with this when I was the Ministe r of Welfare under the previous adl!linist--cation and I am well aware of all the headac hes which were -created and now in the 1219

March 1, 1973 Tape 407 brief period that I have been Mi111ster of Supply I have learned a lot more of the headaches and the potential headaches in this particular opuation, As a matter of fact, if it is any comfort to the hon. ~embers who spoke, this whole subject is under very close discussion at the present ti!rte as to how it is best to handle it, But mi~ht I point out in defense of the officials of my departm.ent as I said the other ni.~ht that co111Dent on this is so111etimes carried to a ridiculous level.

For instance it may not be known to many members of the House that contrary to all other practices of government • approval is given to my department , before the estimates are passed, that is before March a~ before the money has been voted for these supplies, for tenders to be called for the first boat that leaves in the spring. In other words. before we know that the vote is even ~oing to be passed by this House, befo~e the money bas been provided., the tenders are called so as to give ample til!le for the first boats going north in the sprin~ I.n sr,i te of 1220 J},! - 3

March 1, 1973 Tape No . 408 NM - 1 doing that ~ there seem to be complications which arise later on that some stuff does not get on the boats . Now generally and quite often it is due to the suppliers, but in the cases of emergency and when there are a lack of supplies, this system is not tied down with red tape that it cannot . be expedited. For instance when there is a natural and proven need , supp l ies on three weeks waiting period, they are ordered by telephone to be delivered within a matter of a few days.

The person doing the ordering is told to get on the phone to contract suppliers and to find ou~what they can offer and if they have the supplies availabl~ up continuously. to get to it. This has been followed Now the argU111ent which my department has against decentralizulg supply, which is what the other aide ~eans, is that there is a considerable danger that it would cost the people of Labrador a lot more 1DOney.

Because through the aspect of central purchasing and central supply, we can call tenders and we have the ability to call tenders for our considerable quantities of goods at specified times, at quite considerable savings. We do bargain hard on thes~ things. We' have the ability of very large purchasing, actual!y the pllrchases of the Department of Supply this year will probably be in the neighbourhood of $30 million. Anyone who knows the essence of good business, knows it 1& completely erroneous and a false step to take to start breaking up your purchasing ability into a number of different divisions.

To begin with there is ,t he aspect of lack of control when you have every Tom, Di.ck and Barry going out running all over the place trying to buy stuff . There is the added aspect of not being able to get the best possible prices, I question very seriously in the light of our experience that it would be found that deliveries were one bit better, in fact it would probably end up by being an awful lot 1221

March 1, 1973 Tape No. 408 NM - 2. worse , Now conditions on the Labrador, as the honourable members spoke, are so~ething which at times are completely unpredic~able and there have been many eases in the paat and tam afraid there will be many cases in the future, with sudden freeze ups, where branches have not put in their orders and so on, that stuff just misses the last boat . It is then that it all starts.that supplies are not down there, My department does its ul!DIOst.

It starts before the estimates to get the goods on the first boats in March, it again starts in August and September to be sure that the fall goods get down before the freeze up, Every possible effort is used to be sure that these goods are obtained and shipped on time• I do not care what is put in the legislation or what is not put in this legislation, I would predict that no system.will be perfect and no system will be sure that you can overcmne some of the peculiar ~ditions which prevail on the Labrador Coast , Now perhaps that is enough on that subject.

It can be debated later when we get into the details of the bill, if the honourable members wish so to do. But on the other subject which was raised by the honourable member for Bell Island on the question which he raised about tenders, it is just too silly to talk about because it is something like the thing which occurred the other night in our discussions on Public Works, when the honourable me,mber was telling us how to run the department when that is exactly what is being done when the snow clearing operations are to be checked out hour by hour and a very- careful watch to be kept on them.

Similiarly in the case of the purchase of supplies. Tu _ the purchase of supplies, Mr. Speaker, these tenders eoae in, they are not just throvn on somebody's desk and allowed for every Tom, Diek and Harry to have a look at them and change the figures on 1222

March 1, 1973 Tape No, 408 NM - 3 them and that sort of thing, as was almost suggested by implication the way the honourable member for Bell Island spoke, that they could be changed. 1223

March 1, 1973 Tape 409 PK - 1 These tenders that come in are carefully tabulated and are carefull y locked up and are the responsibility of one person who has the key to that box. The box 1s not opened until the tender date is due, then are opened in the ~esence of tvo or three officials of the department and anY of the tenderers who wish to attend to see what the bids are, AN IJON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. EARLE: The honourable Rentleman I think perhaps he will some day be minister of the depa r tment and he might learn a bit about tne complications of it. I do not thinK that is going to be for sometime but still.

A.~ HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR . EARLE: But the fact is.just to give an illustration of the type of thing that you run into . There was one gentleman raising holy Cain with me only today because his tender arrived one hour late and his was not accepted. He claimed he was a great supporter of the ~overnment and everything~that he could be given special concessions and special consideration. I said, no way.

The tenders were called to come on a certain hour, they arrive on that hour and you are out of luck. now fair would it be to those who tendered who got their tenders in on time and were sitting there waiting for the tenders to be opened and we said; "sorry gentlemen, you have to wait another hour because there is some fellow who haa not got his i:ender- in," This is stupid. The time is set. The hour 1s set for the opening of tenders, people who are interested can be there and can follow it up. They can see the other person's tenders. They can see the price.

AN HON, MEMBER: Why can they not bring them in with them? MR. EARLE: If they want to come in five minutes before and they are in on time they can bring them. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible . MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to go into detail on every operation of the department, But anybody knows that in any sensibly conducted department or bu~iness or anything else there has to 1°224

March 1, 1973 Tape 409 PK - 2 be a procedure followed 1mless you want chaos . You cannot have people bringing slips of paper in at the last mo111ent and say,uhere you are quick!" Five minutes befo1:e the hour, "here I am.this is mv tender•J It is crazy. The very fact that the honourable member would su22est ~uch a thing is the same sort of crazy nonsense that he suggested the other night,that snow clearing be controlled by janitors and watchmen- and people like that. You have to have officials who know what they are doing to try and control these things, It :is crazy. AN RON. ~~ Inaudible. mt.

EARLE~ It is all right,tbe honourable gentleman will have his opportunity. But procedures have been developed over the years by ~ovemment and the best of the111 have been incorporated in this act. In our opinion there is no room in it for evasion., If there is any room in it and there are any sensible suggestions which can be made..I would most certainly be happy to listen to them . I move second reading. On motion a bill, "An Act Respecting The Department of Public Works and Services," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole Rouse presently, by leave. MR. W. MARSHALL: Order 22, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to point out to the House that it is our policy not to call bills -unless honourable members have had them for at least twenty - four hours . The next order that I am calling is Order 22, bill No. 35, Tourism~which was just circulated today but I understand the members on the other side have no objection to calling this now. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we have no objection. We want to get rid o~ these unnecessary pieces of legislation as far as we can so we will not be wasting the time of the Bouse. Motion , second reading of a bill, ".An Act Respecting The Department of Tourism. " 1225

March 1. 1973 Tape 409 PK - 3 HON, T. DOYLE (MINISTER OP TOURISM): Mr. Speaker, while I hope to avail. of the present 1100d of this honourable Bouse with regard to the acts setting up the new departmeuts of govex:nment, I shoµld like to point out with a great deal of pleasure that thia particular one is a milestone in that it is the first time in the history of Newfoundland that we are about to have a separate and distinct Department of Tourism. This department it is proposed to mould into 1226

March 1, 1973 - Tape 410 Ill-1 five divisions which heretofore were scattered throughout three different departments of government . Thev are the Tourist Development Office which we are propos i ng to rename the Di vision of Tourist Services and which was before under E·conomic Development; the f'.arks Oivisi.on i.,hich used to be called Provincial Parks Services which also was under Economic De,,e l ooment: the Wildlife Di vision which co111es from "fines, Agriculture and Resources; Historic Resources and r.ultured Affairs which both come fro111 Prov i ncial Affairs.

In addition the Arts and Letters Colmlittee and the Public Libraries Roard have been taken from Education and assigned to our Cultured Affairs Division. Basically, ~r. Speaker, that is the act. As I said, it is an amalgamation of five already existin~ divisions of ~overnrnent. It simply takes them from one department and outs them where I firmly believe they belong together under one roof,and we hope that in so ' ' doin~ we will he able to cr eate a oroper atmosphere to improve our tourism in Newfoundland . "'l!.

THOMS: Mr, Speaker, this bill is similiar to all the other bLlls that are currently hefore this House. It is really of no great imnortance. The faster we get rid of them the better. Oh, we need another snuirt of oil over there in the corner,do we? So, Mr. Speaker, vou know, it is l ike one of the untve r sitv students who I was talking to the other day. We were talkin~ ahout restructuring. lie said to me, "You know, I can do just as good a job as that,•· he said, "on anv long weekend plus or minus a couple of days.• You know, Mr.

Speaker, there are a lot of rumors Roin~ around about the cost of this restructuring and one thing and another and different figures are put on it. I suppose the greatest figure that 1 have heard i s a million dollars. Mr. S~eaker, whether it cost a thousand, a hunrlred thousand, a million or two million,really I think it is a waste o,f the tmblic monev . MR. SPEAKE!?: The honourahle member must be releva nt to t he bill being discussed. Ile may continue but he relevant to the hill. 1227

March I , 1973 Tape 410 Ill-2 MR. THOMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now, ~r. Speaker, we have in this bill pfter ahout four hundred years of our history, separated from the forests of our land the wildlife of our land. We have placed them , in my mind, in a very dangerous position, We have placed them in the nepartment of Tourism and we have allowed the minister in this case to disnerse · the Yildlife of our province in whatever manner he ~ees fit. The danger that I see in this, Mr.

Sneaker, is that nosRiblv, just possibly the tourists coming into our province will have greater access to the wildlife of our province than do our people of the Province, This is a danger which I see and this is something that I do not agree with. Of course, ¥r. Speaker, you know all of this will be changed in a couple of years anyway. So, it will not be to bad. Well, ~r . Speaker , to take wildlife and to place it with Tourism only reminds me of one thing: it is like taking the tail of the bull and trying to put the tail through the ring in its nose. "MR. NEARY: ~r.

Speaker, this is the department where a nest has been made for Mr. Nutbeam. I wonder,when the fflinister ts closing the dehate, jf he will confirm or deny that Mr, Nutbeam has been given an office down in the old Colonial Building and the Curator of the Archives has been booted out. Whv? AN HONOTJllABLE ?-fE"IBER: Lies . MR.. NEARY: 1 t is not lies, Sir. I would like to know why does Mr. Nutbeam qualify to have an office down in the Colonial Building? Why is he not over in El 1zabP.th Towers with the rest of the crowd? ~. GILLETTE: Mr.

Speaker , in speakinp, to this h111 and relatin g to the new deoartment, the ner,artment of Tour.ism, I think it is a go?d derartment as I believe we all agree on both sides of the Rouse . l am not qualified to speak,as my honourable friend from Eonavtsta North is. on the wildltfe 1228

March 1, 1973 Tape No , 411 NM - l and where this should be and under what department it should be administered and the protection of our wildl~fe, But l do think that tourism should and I think it will be one of our greatest assets, perhaps second to the disco yery of oil, We do have a unique province and I trust it will always remain that way.

Furthermore , I think I should congratulate the Minister of Tourism. l think that the government has made an e%cellent selection because I go back in many years, I know that perhaps no other member in this Rouse has covered at least the coastal area of Newfoundland as much as has the honourable Minister of Tourism.

Having covered the entire island on many occasion~ I would presume, with hia dad, who promoted tourism before we even knew the meaning of the word, so to speak. l can only hope that his knowledge that he gained in his boyhood and young manhood will serve him very well 1-n his ministerial post as the Minister of Tourism. Now 1 presume that we will be talking more on tourism as the debate progresses,wben we are in com111ittee. It is sufficient now to say that I fully endorse the bill as I am sure we all do on this side and in the whole House.

I can only reiterate that I trust that under the ministerial guidance of the Minister of Tourism, that this department will become one of the most i -mportant departments in the Government of Newfoundland. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to let this opportunity without first payin~ trtbut! to the gentleman who just spoke, and he is a gentleman in the true sense of the word, for his great active interest in tourism as such.

I had a few short months in that department and at the time tlte gentleman came along 'and he offered the department a schooner, " The Grace Boener •" which belonged to his firm down t here, absolutely ftte of 1229

March 1 , 1973 Tape No. 411 _NM - 2 charge,as an historic object ,if you like, or whatever you would like to call i t ,for Twillingate Island. 1 am sure that if all of us here in this House had the same attitude on this province, its attractions, and trie.d to do something for it - I say this very, very sincerely. our little province would be a far better place to live in, l would like to thank the honourable gentleman for the interest he showed, the very many fine conversations we had when I had the honour to be in the department that handled tourism. honourable member very. very much. I want to thank the MR.

SPEAKER: the debate, If the honourable minister cow speak. , he closes MR. DOil.E: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the honourable gentlemen for their co'lllll\ents, particularly my long st.anding friend from Twillingate for his very kind comments and in direct answer to my friend, the honoura ble member fo r Bell Island, the facts of the matter are as follows. As I have said in this honourable House last week, Mr. Nutbeem commenced work on February 19 as the co-ordinator of the silver anniversary celebrations ,as I believe the honourable member is aware.

At the present time there is a tremendous space problem in this buildtng and elsewhere . Unfortunately, although they say it is an ill wind, etc., but unfortunately on the previous Friday the Provincial Archivist, Mr. Burnham Gill, suffered a heart attack, a mild one/ am glad to say. and he will be away from his office for approximately six weeks. As there 'Was no other space available, I installed Mr. ijutbeem in Mr. Gill's office. 1230

March 1, 1973 Tape 412 J1" - 1 with the clear mtd distinct understanding that the minute Mr. Gill is quite able to co,ne back to work M;. Nutbeam will remove hilliself elsewhere. By that time it is hoped that our dP.partment will be fully established on the 5th floor West of this bHildin~. MR. NEARV: What security provisio~ are being taken to make suie that the advantages down there are the same as here? MR. DOYLE: Ur.

Speaker, in my opinion that question does not deserve~~ answer . ~~_!L_!: l thank the hon. members for their interest and t 1.1c,11ld like to a$sure se,ioosly the hon. member for Bonavista ll!ort., that r share t:fs :-!'lnce.-n in what happens to our wflc!lffe anti ! fullv :-enli?.E" t hat thP.re is a verv fine line which we have to walk 1-etween rl-ie use of ou r wHd life faciliti,:,s or wildlife plant if vo11 wtll for our own oeoolc.- •1crs11i; tnurlstl'I. l am ciuite aware of t his situation anti vou c11n he- assurt>d that it is ont> thnt 1 am 1>oinr. t<> wat ch verv. verv cl r>'">I' Iv.

T ch~n~ the hon. members for their comments. nn lll<'tio n , o hill, "An Act Respect!~ The r>epartment nf Tourism.·• re;id a ,i,econ<l time, ordered referred to a committee of the whole i•ouse. 1>resent\ v. ~--~_0_t_A.lUR: It bein~ now six o'clock l do leave the Chc1ir until 123 1

Volume 2 FOR REFERENC E ONLY NOT .TO BE CIRCULATED PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY -SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Thursday, March 1, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number· 17

~arch 1, 1973, Tape ~13, Pagel -- apb The Rouse resumed at 8: 00 'P. m Mr. Speaket: i n the Chair , Motion, aec ond reading of a bill; "An Act To Amend 'fhe Department Of B.ealth Act." (No . 38) DR. A.T,ROWE: -------- In line with certain recommendations re~arding the Committee on Administration and Productivity , thi s act follows t:he format of most of the other departments on restructuring providing Night. for the appointment by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council, of associate deputy ministers, deputy ministers and directors of administration, One

part I think which is rather important, is the question of the age of majority in the eff ect that agreements made by individuals who thou)!h in the minority have rea ched the age of majority when the agreements come into effect, Thi s Will now be legalized.

Some of the other sect i ons nre related to the power of the Department of Health t o enter into agreements l-rith the other llepartments on quesHons of research and such other ma tters as may come under the re~ulatory powers of the department, Those are in sections (Ba) co (Bo) which contain the main changes with the points I have mentioned, These are the most si~nificant parts of' the act . On motion a bill; "An Act To Amend The Department Of Health Act.' ' read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presentl y, by leave.

Motion, second reading of a bill; "An Act Further To Amend The Department Of Finance Act." SO1'-'E RON. MfilIBEP.S : Yea! Hurrs.h ~ MR. CROSBIE: l do not like to spoil this by saying anything, }tr, Speaker., this is a bill to do just what it says, that is to amend the Department of Finance Act . l will have to look at this very quick l y to see what is in it. It will give effect to certain recommendations contained in the report of the Committee on Government Administration and Productivity.

Actually the.re are no amendments of any great moment in this, but the new organizational structure of the Department of Finance - there is a slight change there, The new org anization of the Departme nt of ~inance provides for a comptroller and deputy minister, an assistant deputy minister, an assistant deputy minister of finance (revenue) . We have abolished the post of assistant deputy ~inister of finance (expenditure) . 1~32

}farch 2, 1973, Tape 413, Page 2 -- apb In addition,of course, there is a director of fiscal policy and his group will report to the deputy minister and the director of loan, guarantee and debt management who also report to the deputy minister, There is no fundamental change. The government have decided however, Hr.

Speakert that all matters of loans and guarantees should be dealt with by the Department of Finance and there is another bill which has not had second reading yet which will provide that in any case where the government guarantee a loan, that such a guarantee will have to be signed by the Hinister of Finance so that the Department of Finance will at least know about all puarantees given by the government. In the past there have been occasions when the Department of Finance found out a year or two after the event that a guarantee had been signed by some minister and they.had never been informed about it.

AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. CRO~IE]__ Yes, they are all to be centralized in the Department of Finance and Mr.

Dustan 7 as a matter of fact, who was Chairman of the Newfoundland Fisheries Development Authority and whose job it has been now for some years to look after the various lease-backs and crown corporations, he is retiring as or has retired as Chairman of the Fisheries Development Authority and he will be moving down to the Department of Finance to continue to look after the lease-backs, and in particular to look after,on behalf of the government,the oil refinery.' He has been doing most of the work in connection with the original oil refinery agreements and he will continue in that capacity but he will be down in the Department of Finance as special adviser to the minister on crown ~orporations and the work that he has been doing in the Department of Fisheries before.

The Treasury Board is not dealt with in these amendments, it will be coming up on the Revenue and Audit Act., We hope by the way1 Mr. Speaker, to introduce in this session ~ new Revenue and Audit Act or a Financial Administration Act. That is being worked on now including in it the amendment that was promised in the Speech from the 1233

March l, 1973, Tape '• 13, Pafle 3 - ai,b Throne. The Treasur Boa.rd ~,ill be dealt 1"1 th 1n that legis la cion , but he Treesury Board will be ae-parate and independent from the Department of Finan ee. The secretary of the Treasur Board was the deputy minister of Flnance, Mr . l'epcr, it is now Nigh , Mr . Victor Young who was deputy secrer.ary. It is a serarate organization organized into four branche • The organization and management division, ~hi ch is ne"1, tha is headed by .Ir. R.J .Olivero. Tha is a new organization to attempt to take steps to improve the efficiency of government.

A Budiet division, we do not have a director of that yet a collective bargaining division of which Mr. Blanchard is the director, Mr. Norris is the assistant director and the classifies tion and Nl)' division with Mr. Cochrane as th director . The Trensury Board as Is-a is going to be a separate institution. The president of the T=easur;• Board will be the }linister of Finance, but they are going to operate as sepa=ate entities and they will nDt be a branch o f the Department of F.inance . I think that is the ieneral principle. 1234

March 1, 197.3 Tape No. 414 NM - 1 HR. WM. ROWE: Mr. Dustan: When we bad the honour to form the admin:tstration, we found Mr. Dus tan invaluable in dealing with crown corporations and other corporations with which the government had some concern and I am delighted to hear that he is going to become even more highly involved in this field. We found him excellent and able in every respect. Secondly, I am glad to hear that finally the logical step has bee~ taken to separate the Treasury Board from the Department of Finance.

It always seemed to be highly illogical to me and foolish in many respects to have the Treasury Board operating down there as merely an ann or adjunct of the Department of Finance. Many other departments found it exceedingly irritating that the Department of Finance could seem to run roughshoa over them, .when after all it was just another department of government. This has nothing to do with Mr. Peper who is the Deputy Minister,but having the Secr~tary of the Treasury Board and the Deputy Minister of Finance one and the same person is aiways irritating to a lot of people as well, although I think Mr.

Peper did a good job in both capacities . Having the Minister of Finance and President of the Treasury Board as the same minister, I do not think has the same problems attached to it because obviously lots of ministers sometimes have dual portfolio6, But I am glad to see that the Treasury Board has finally separated itself from the Department of Finance and exists now as it is supposed to exist, namely,as a committee of cabinet with a committee of cabinet ministers exercising a constraint and restraint on the spending on government expenditure.

So there is nothing else to say about the bill, Mr, Speaker, except it is a routine bill with the exception of these two things I have mentioned. MR, NEARY: Before the Minister of Finance closes the debate, this may be as good a time as any to · try and find out from the minister 1235

March 1, 1973 Tape No. 414 NM - 2 MR, NEARY: just how much restructuring is going to cost the taxpayers of this province. We know, Sir, there were four casualties already, Four deputy ministers have bitten the dirt, early retirement, retired on full salary until they reacb the retirement age. We notice all kinds of special assistants, hired executive assistants, and we heard a figure, Mr. Speaker , r think it was mentioned by my colleague, the member for Bonavista North, mentioned the figure of $1 million fo r stationary, envelopes, for reprinting legislation, reprintinR regulations .

I would like for the Minister of ~inance , Sir, to tell us just how much this grandiose scheme of restructuring is going to cost the taxpayers of this province. MK. SPEAKER: If the honourable ministP.r spealt , he closes the debate. MR. CROSBIE: I think this is a very appropriate time to close it, Mr. Speaker.

The cost of restructuring l would say on balance is going to be nil because the increased efficiency and the savings that will result with a more eff icient utilization of the resources of the governmen~ will more than meet any add.itonal cost in stationary. the additional stationary cost I think is $13,205.90 or as near the-ceabouts as we can make it. That figure may go up, of course. But the cost of restr ucturing is not a very high cost, however it is having one effect, Mr. Speake r, it is delaying our estimates for current account th1.a year.

Instead of having the estimates all done we are still working on them. There is a lot of work involved in changing the estimates around so they fit the new departments . AN HON. ME$ER: - the ex tra $24 million, MR. CROSBIE: The extra $2'4 million is already well loaked after by 1236

March 1, 1973 Tape No . 41'\ NM - 3 MR. CROSBIE: the projected increase in expe.nditures for ne;rt year• So the competition that was started on people suggesting what we would spend the $24 million on, it may as well cease now. The money is already well looked after. I do not think the~e was anything elee to answer except the honourable member for Bell Island, which means that there was not really anything to answer. I think that the point made by the honourable House Leader of the Opposition was well taken. As a matter of fact most of the work of the Secretary of the Treasury Board was done by ~1r.

Young, as you know. We are very lucky, Mr. Speaker, to have in Finance and in the Treasury Board some very capabl:e public officials. I would like to mention Mr. Abery who is a director of fiscal policy. I forgot to mention earlier that that fiscal policy division was under the Treasury Board but it is now with the Department of Finance and he is a very capable individual who is doing some very fine work for us in the federal-provincial negotiations in particular. He is very, very knowledgeable in that area.

He was our representative on the task force of provincial officiali that has just made a report to the Ministers of Finance and Education, outlining the alternatives that the prov:l.nces should consider when we next meet with the federal government to discuss post-secondary education financing costs. He was our representat i ve on that, He is a tower of strength as doubtless gentlemen opposite know because he has been a civil servant for some five or six years now. I must say it is a pleasure to work with these people and they are doing a very fine job for this province.

On motion a Bill, "An Act Further To runend The Department Of Finance Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently, ·1237

March 1, 1973 Tape No. 414 NM - 4 Motion second reading of a Bill, ''An Act Respecting The Department of Mines and Energy. 11 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, again I think the title of the Bill speaks for itself.

Section 7 sets out the powers, functions and duties of the minister and indicate therefore the responsibilities of the department. It is a new department. The Mines Branch coming of course from the old Department of Mines, Agriculture and Resources and a new Energy ·Branch to cover both a pet~aleum and natural gas division and to have responsibility for the electrical energy matters. Under the Mines Branch there will be a mineral developm~nL divi8ion, booic~lly t~e m1nPr~l resources division as it now exists.

There will also be a mineral lands administration division which will have responsibility for the policing of existing concessions, will have responsibility for administering generally the granting of mineral concessions and following such grants. Some of the functions of the present Mines Inspection Division may end up in this divis:fion but this, as of yet,has not been completely clarified as some of the present responsibilities of the Mines Inspecti-0n Branch 1238 ...

March 1, 1973 Tnpe 415(Nieht) it is anticipated will go to the Horkman 's Cor:1pensation Boan'. Basically this is all I have to say. I think it is a standard act similar to others thnt have been brou~ht in for the restructuring of other departments. !!_R_,! ROLTF.(W.N.): Hr. Speaker, it is just one of these restructurinr acts and I do not pretend to have read or looked at it with a fine- tooth comb all these restructurlng bills.

Tf one r1 id do that one would have to be restructured oneself I would inagine, I do notice that the minister is takin~ over rontrol over crown Lands. mines rmrl quarries. the Newfoundland and Labrador 'Por,1er Cot":mission c.or,ps 1mrler his nusnices now I r:uess.

Rural Electricity Act, the ndninistn1tion thereof is under the minister now and petroleum and natural gas, Rural Electrification Undeveloped Mineral Areas Act, most of the thin~s which wer<' in t'1e mines, all the things I guess that were in the ~:lnes hranch of the Department of Mines, Agriculture and Resources olus the Power Cornrfssion which was I believe under the Oepartment of Economic Develoornent. Ts there nnvthing else in the bill? Could the minister tell us, is there anythinr, new?

Does 11c 1inve any new powers over any other iurisdiction besides tlw nn('S which T have mentionerl therP, the mines division of '.fines :rnd Pcsources and the ~lewfoundland Power Com:nission? Is there anyth:inr eL:c that he is able to do, anvthinf' new, startling. novf'l or interestlnt.> that he mi~ht r.,ention to the House? MR. SPEAKER: Tf the hon. rriinistt>r speak nm,1, he c.1nses the dehate. !f.R• BARRY: l think. ~r. S'1f'at:er, that the nets refrrred to in the

schedule to the hill are thP mnin areas of rcsnonsihilitv. If t find that I have any U"reater nowers than this 1 T will he the f:frst to inforn the hon. r.1eher. HR. ROWE(W.J-1.,.): ~1r. Speaker. for example whnt is hi.,;- role:, wh,1t is the minister's role in negotiating with BRINCO or ar:v other conpany 1239 JH - l

March l, 1973 Tape 415(Night:) that might want to develop the Lower Churchill? Now ordinarily this would have been, I auess, under industrial development or economic development, Is the minister playing a prominent role in this , thP leading role or is he subsidiary or secondarv in his rnle as minister? MR. B~~: Mr. Speaker, on this side of the Tiouse we work as a teAJtJ. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). MR. ~1:'.~:'.:. Tie is outside left anti T am left outsine. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, matters of such J!reat irnnortant'e to the province as the Lower Churchill are dealt with p.enerallv hv A committee of cabinet. i>resently the Minister nf finance is cl1airnian of the committee, the Minister of Tn<lustri;,1 l)e,velonl'\l'nt. l" a member of the committee , 1 am a mem1'er of the committee ~ne' tlir· Minister of Recreation and Rehah:i.li tation is a member as havinr- naturallv a nai-ticular interest in that part of the prnvinee. r.ut basically it boils down to,in rnuti.ne l'lat:terss th,rt two heads a-re r.enerallv hetter th,m one, depentlinr on the tP,· ·,,,,,ciF being fi-o'll this side of the House that is, MR. :>1l'RPPV: What ;ibont the nine heads over there now?

Gi Vf' ""' " " '" ---- - honest thoup.hts on it. MR. BARRY: lfo I woulrl rather not refer to any of the hea cb; nv<'r there. llut bas:ically J am h;innv to sav that I benefit frCJlll thf' vast fund of lcnowled~e tl1at has heen acouired by the hon. Pinister of Finance, the hon. Minister of Industrial Tlevelopment. 'rhev have all been, I think, towers of strength (to use a phrase that has been l!etting some nse here these two davs) and I think thnt the committee system works l~ell and that the team effort is far bett:er than anv one individual taking a fli.er bv himself.

Motion, a bi11, ''An Act Respectin~ The Departl'lent Of Mines and Eners:ry, '1 read a second time, ordered referred to a commi.ttee of the whole House, prcsentlv. !-lotion, second rendinF! of a bill, :'An Act Respectinl! 'I'he Department Of Municipal Aft airs And Housinfl." 12~ 0 JM - 2 .. ..,

March 1, 1973 Tape 415 (Night) MR. MARSllALL: The minister is unavoidsbly out of the House today , Mr . Speaker, but this is just merely - I should not call restructuring bills,routine bills because they are certainly not routine bills, but in the case of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Rousinl?- it remains essentia:tlv the same. There is somewhat a breakriown in the functions more specifically between technical services and local government services. The acts which the oepartment will be resnonsible for are contained in schedules (

A) and (

B) and do not varv in this particular department whicl 1 is an rmcrous department and has heavy duties. There is not that much variation. if any, between its rrior duties and the present on e , unlik e the other acts that went throur,h. Mo tion. a hill, "

An Act Resnectin1; The Dcnartment or Municipal Affairs And Housing," read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the whole House, presently by leave. Motion, second reading of a hill, "An Act 1'o /\mend The Crown Corporation (Local Taxation) Act. " MR, CROSHF:: --·---· M.r, Speaker. thi .s amendment was introducec1 in l,rnt year's session of the House of Assemhly and it was not passed. Now this has to do with the munic ipal taxation of crown corporations . The ~ouse will remember that it was a policy of the last administration.

Her ~aiesty's Governrnent,not to permit municipal taxation of crown coroorations.

A cro1m corporation of course is a corporation that is · 01med by the _government and the province and this has been a controversial issue for many years and the federation of municipalities have usually inc1d'ded anm,ially in their submissions to government tbe argument that they wish to be permitted to tax crown corporations that operate within their municipal houndries, The r,overnment have always taken the position heretofore that this would simply be pennittinp; municipalities to tax the government and the . government would have to find the money,and the government would not agree to this change in policy . · 1241 JI

March l . l 97'\ "low the ort~inal Crown Corporations Local Taxation Mt prevenLo; cro~Tfl con>oTations heinv, subi ectcd to local raxat·:i on 11n 1 cs,- an order - in •cl)lmci l is JH\SSP•' directing that the act no lonrer apply to the corporation n;:med in the order .

This amendment is made necessary because it wts not rlcnT in t!w act that such an order coulil be l'\:ldc. if the !'overm'tent itself miPht have to find funds for the cr<'~m corroration to oav rn1tn'ir·t"nl taxation, How thia aoverTlll'ent 1mnounced last ye;ir that its oolicv was that we wo1•lil permit municipal taxation of a crown corno ration if the crown corporation were in business, in an ordinarv commerci11J or inc'usrri.nl 011si ness that was competitive with other bul'iinessei. that are operated or privately owned in the prnvlnce .

We h:we particularly in mind the Holida)' Inns which has been a sore nni11r for manv vears. As the House knows , the Holiday Ions chain nf hotels is operated by Atliflc Newfoundland Limited which is A co1'!uany that has the Holidav Inns franchise and they manaf!e and on era te the Holiday Inns Hotel!. which are owned by Hotel Ruildinrs Limited which is a crown cornoration owned by the Governl'lent of Newfouncll ancl . There are Holiday 'Inns 1:~t2 ·™ - 4

NIGHT SESSION March l, 1973 Tape no. 416 Page l - MRW Mr. Crosbie. located in St. John's 1 Clarenvillet Gander, Corner Brook and Port aux Basques, None of these have been subject to municipal taxation. At the sa~e time in all of those municipalities there are privately owned hotels, particularly in Corner Brook, Gander and St. John's. The owners of those places are in competition with Holiday Inn or Ho tel Buildings Lim! ted. They have to pay municipal taxes and Holiday Inn does not or Hotel Buildings Limited does not.

It is t:he government's intention that the House approve this amendment to pass an order-in-council making the Holiday Inn hotels subject to municipal taxes for the 1973 taxation year. Now this is going' to cost the government itself some money, unfortuna.tely,but that is the way it is. The reason why