Manitoba Hansard — 20 May 2004 (Sitting 42B, 38th Legislature, 2nd Session)

38-2-42b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LV No. 42B - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, May 20, 2004

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P.

SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

2509 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 20, 2004 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 213–The Seniors' Property Tax Deferment Act Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): I move, seconded by the Member for Minnedosa (Mrs. Rowat), that Bill 213, The Seniors' Property Tax Deferment Act, be now read for the first time. Motion presented. Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, this bill enables the government to enter into agreements with seniors who wish to defer school and property taxes on their homes. Under such an agreement, the government will pay the deferred taxes on the senior's behalf.

The deferred amount will be a debt owing by the senior to the government and will be secured by a lien against the senior's home. The debt will bear an interest rate to be set by regulation that is not more than 1 percent above the government's borrowing rate. This bill also allows widowed persons and persons with disabilities to defer their taxes. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the loge to my right where we have with us Larry Desjardins who is a former Member for St. Boniface. Also we have Albert Vielfaur who is a former Member for LaVerendrye. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today 25 students from Arthur Meighen High School in Portage la Prairie.

These students are under the direction of Joellen Reimer and are the guests of the honourable Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Pension Freedom Act Government Support Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, last week we introduced The Pension Freedom Act, which would lift the severe restrictions that are currently in place regarding the amount of pension income that seniors can receive.

In speaking to this bill on May 13, the member from Elmwood said, and I quote, "What is that caucus going to say five years, six years, ten years down the road when we have a tremendous amount of citizens coming back to us who have no pension funds left, who have maybe mishandled the money?" That is what he said, Mr. Speaker. Is this why this Premier refuses to support our pension freedom bill because he and his member from Elmwood think Manitoba seniors are incapable of wisely managing their own money? * (13:35) Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): I think the many seniors in the U.K. were very wisely able to handle their own money when Margaret Thatcher deregulated the pension provisions in that country and regrettably, even with that wisdom, 60 000 people were without pensions after the measure was taken. I have said that there is more flexibility required in pension legislation. We are prepared to provide that flexibility. The issue of spousal concurrence that was lacking in the legislation and in the press release, obviously would be one of the principles that

2510 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 would be part of our initiative and we are working towards– An Honourable Member: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: We are working on a more flexible provision. We are aware of some restrictions that are not, in our view, fair to seniors and therefore we are prepared to amend the legislation, but we will have the balance of individual decision making, in terms of pension income, balanced off with the predict- ability of pensions for income. We will also have the principle of spousal concurrence or approval as any part of the decision that is going to be made.

These are some of the points the minister has made and I have made as we proceed with legislation. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, it is always interesting when the Premier gets up and takes us on a bit of a tour around the world. We have now gone, I guess, from Mulroney to Thatcher. I am not sure which jurisdiction he is going to next for a response but it will be very interesting. Perhaps the Premier might actually just go to his neighbour next door in Saskatchewan, the NDP government in Saskatchewan that introduced this legislation. That is what is important about this debate, it already exists in Saskatchewan.

The member from Elmwood has said in this House, and I quote, "I want to caution the members that they perhaps need a little bit more time from the Saskatchewan plan to see how many people actually do come back to the government without any pension benefits, looking for social assistance in the long run," Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I would ask if the Premier agrees with his member from Elmwood, if he could explain to the members and seniors in the gallery and all around the province of Manitoba that he believes that if the restrictions are lifted that seniors will blow all of their money and then come back cap-in-hand to the government. How can he possibly treat seniors that are so important to Manitoba with such disrespect? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, it is because we respect the views of seniors and we respect the views of people that are providing advice. Women and the Law have told us not to touch it completely.

Other people have suggested completely deregulate pension law here in Manitoba. There are two polarized views on this. We will have a balanced approach to provide greater flexibility for seniors because we do respect their ability to make decisions. We will ensure in that balanced approach that spouses are protected, unlike members opposite. Furthermore, we will ensure in that balanced approach that there is the provision of predictability for pension funds.

As people live longer and enjoy the quality of life, there will be predictability of income, so we believe we can get those th ree principles in the new legislation that we will bring in. Mr. Murray: It is interesting that the Premier would stand in the Legislature and talk about a balance and a quality of life, Mr. Speaker.

I hope that he does not listen to the member from Elmwood who in this Chamber said, and I quote, "If you follow what the opposition are advocating here, you are going to see increasing numbers of older people in their seventies, in their eighties with no money because they bought cottages when they were 65 years old, rather than retiring with the money intact." Mr.

Speaker, I ask this Premier when he stands in this House and talks about balance and quality of life, does he agree with the member of Elmwood, given the opportunity to invest or spend their own hard-earned money, that he thinks that buying cottages is blowing it. Mr. Doer: No, Mr. Speaker. Pension Freedom Act Legislative Process Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, this morning on the advice of the honourable Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), we requested that Bill 212, The Pension Freedom Act, move on to committee to allow Manitobans to speak to the bill.

To our dismay the NDP said, "No" to Manitoba seniors. To our dismay th e NDP said, "No" to Bill 212 going to committee. I ask the minister why does she refuse to listen to those women and men who are disadvantaged with their locked-in pensions.

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2511 * (13:40) Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I rise as House Leader, Mr. Speaker. I was here this morning and answered to the question. The House, the members opposite gave unanimous consent for the matter to stand in the name of the Member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). That is not what the member alleges. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, the House leader could speak with a bit more credibility if he had, in fact, been here. Leave was requested and it was denied by the NDP.

A pensioner, Michael L., was forced into his line of credit and, in the case of one couple, they went bankrupt. Is this the NDP concept of the pension promise? I ask the minister responsible again why does the NDP refuse to listen to Manitoba pensioners in regard to Bill 212, The Pension Freedom Act. Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, we have been listening to Manitobans and we had just recently, last week we had a meeting. The deputy minister in my depart- ment had a meeting with the senior management from the Credit Union Central.

I have had a meeting with the Manitoba Society of Seniors. It is very, very important to listen to Manitobans on this very important issue. Legislation in this province has not been reviewed in over 20 years. When we bring in our legislation, we will bring it in and it will be sure- footed, and it will meet all of the demands that we have promised in this Legislature. Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, 60 percent of the members of the credit union co-op plan are women and they are amongst the strongest proponents of the change.

I ask this minister why does she not allow The Pension Freedom Act, Bill 212, to go to committee so we can hear from all women and all men who are being hindered by the locked-in pension plan, so that they can have the freedom to decide how they should spend their dollars in the last years of their retirement Why will she not let this go to committee and hear from Manitobans? Ms. Allan: Mr. Speaker, Bill 212 was brought in as a political document, not as good legislation. There is no spousal protection. There is no creditor protection and there is no age limit on unlocking like this legislation in Saskatchewan.

It was written on the back of an envelope for political purposes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Southdale. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Southdale has the floor. Property Taxes Deferment Program Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, it seems very appropriate that we are talking about seniors today with the introduction of The Seniors' Property Tax Deferment bill that I just introduced because the seniors are looking at rising costs.

They are looking at rising costs in hydro, gas, licence fees, registration for their prope rty, their property taxes and school taxes. In fact, since 2000, property school taxes have risen by 34 percent. They are finding it very difficult to sustain their existence in their homes. Mr. Speaker, I am asking the Minister of Finance whether he has been aware of the B.C. property tax deferment which has been in effect in helping seniors for almost 30 years. Is he aware of this program? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Yes, I am aware of the legislation in B.C.

I am wondering if the member opposite is aware that we have had the very same legislation on the books since 1977 in this province. The regulations for that legislation were repealed on June 21, 1988, by the Filmon government, the members opposite. Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance can look backward as long as he wants and he can point to previous governments and what happened. We are talking about a plan that has been very effective in British Columbia. We are asking him, if

2512 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 this is such a good plan, then he should introduce it. If he wants to introduce this bill, I will take my name off the bill. He can put his name on it. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the member did not hear my answer. We do not need a bill. The legislation is on the books. It is the regulations that were repealed by the members opposite. * (13:45) Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker– Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind all honourable members, when a Speaker is standing all members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence.

I kindly remind all honourable members. Mr. Reimer: The bill and the intent is to help seniors. I am willing to not take credit for the bill. If the Minister of Finance wants to reintroduce the bill under his regulations, and if he wants to change the regulations and it is available for him to do, I am sure the House will go in favour of it, Mr. Speaker. I am asking the Minister of Finance, instead of saying that they were there and they were taken off, if he is willing to introduce them and reintroduce them within the next few days before the session ends. We will support those changes.

It is no use looking back. Let us look ahead for what is good for the seniors. Mr. Selinger: In the preparation of the member's bill, did he make seniors aware of the fact that if his bill goes through and seniors defer their property taxes for 10 years, they will lose their eligibility to property tax credits which we have increased from $625 to $800? Has he made those people aware they would no longer be eligible for the property tax credits in this province? Mr. Speaker: Order. I can only entertain one question at a time. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Compensation for Producers Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste.

Rose): Mr. Speaker, there are indeed a lot of questions that need to be asked in the direction of this government. Today is the anniversary of when one BSE animal in Canada closed the world markets to our products. This government advertised, and I mean advertised widely that they were prepared to put multimillion dollars on the table; up to $180 million, their advertisements talked about. They delivered only about a third of that. There were a number of producers through no fault of their own and because of capping of the programs who were unable to make themselves eligible for some of this assistance.

Would the government today reconsider that plan because they so grossly underspent their advertised amount? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Acting Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr. Speaker, I look forward to the opportunity to answer this question. We have stood beside our producers all the way along since that one cow in Alberta was discovered with BSE. Right from the very beginning our Minister of Agriculture and Food (Ms. Wowchuk) has stood beside our producers. We put $180 million on the table and thus far we have spent $98.9 million, roughly, with regard to the producers.

We have stood beside our producers and all along the Minister of Agriculture has stated that it is important to get the border open. The border, as far as she was concerned and our government is concerned, is the key issue here. We asked the members opposite, instead of bouncing around all over the province and playing politics with this issue, support our Minister of Agriculture and talk to people they may know out there that can have any influence with regard to opening the border and work with our Minister of Agriculture to do that. Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to abandon my constituents as that minister would suggest. At the very time when the roots of this industry have been shaken it is not about the politics or whether he is right or whether I am right, it is about whether or not they ar e able to maintain this industry in this province so it will be there for the future to support the taxes that their government wants to levy. Mr. Speaker, restoring some cash flow to this industry is what needs to happen to keep it whole so it will be there to be a productive part of our economy. Will they now consider a cash advance? Mr.

Lemieux: Our money is on the table. Our Minister of Agriculture and Food has consistently said that repeatedly in this House as mentioned to

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2513 members opposite. I can tell you she has fought very, very strongly on behalf of, not only the producers with regard to this particular challenge that we have before us, but with regard to many, many issues with regard to agriculture in this province. Repeatedly we have said our money is on the table. We are behind our producers, we have stood behind them all the way along, Mr. Speaker. * (13:50) Mr. Cummings: The Minister of Agriculture, I would accept that she may have fought hard for the industry, but she obviously lost in her Cabinet. Mr.

Speaker, a cash advance wo uld create some stability in the industry at a time when people are making critical decisions whether to stay or whether to go. It would stabilize the base of the industry so that it would be there, as I said, to contribute. Mr. Speaker, I look to the Premier (Mr. Doer) to provide some leadership and some direction and recognize that now would be a wonderful oppor- tunity to instigate a cash advance program. Mr. Lemieux: It is the anniversary of this terrible BSE that has hit our producers in the country and in the province of Manitoba, and it is regrettable that this has happened.

The border has been closed and it has created such a hardship on many families. We recognize that and we have introduced many, many different solutions to try to address what we could with regard to this problem. Of course, our federal counterparts in Ottawa need to prioritize this particular issue which we believe at this point they have not. Taking a look at what we have done, Mr.

Speaker, we take a look at the Manitoba Feeder Assistance Program, there is $6.2 million; Manitoba Slaughter Deficiency Program, $9.4 million; Manitoba Drought Assistance Program, $4 million; Manitoba Cull Animal Program, our portion is about $4.8 million. Repeatedly, our Minister of Agriculture and Food has been very, very supportive of our producers. Mr. Speaker: Order. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Supports for Farm Families Mrs.

Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Yesterday in this House we learned that the Family Services Minister has not met with any farm families, families who have been struggling through the BSE crisis for an entire year. This is a family issue as well as an agriculture issue, and under this minister's watch farm families are hurting. Where is this minister's sense of responsibility for all Manitobans and where is her leadership? Can this minister tell the House when she will start meeting with farm families? Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Our government works in teams.

I am continuing to work with the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) and the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak). We are continuing to work and monitor the rural stress line which we know was cut out by members opposite, reinstated by our- selves, and we will continue to work, all of us together, for the benefit of all Manitobans. Certainly we are very sensitive to those Manitobans who are suffering, having a very hard time, through the BSE crisis. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, I am going to provide some advice for this minister.

During the 1997 flood, the then-Minister of Family Services, the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitc helson), understood the importance of visiting the families affected by the disaster. She met with them. She listened to what they had to say and she took action on their behalf. Why is this current Minister of Family Services choosing to ignore farm families during this time of crisis? Ms. Melnick: Again, we are certainly not ignoring families in crisis. We are working together as a team. Our lead minister is the Minister of Agriculture.

In my own department I know that people have called us experiencing difficulties around child care costs. We are being sensitive to that. We are helping families to relieve that cost, and we will continue to work with the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of Health and our other caucus members for the benefit of the Manitoba families that are suffering through BSE. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, this crisis is having a serious social and economic impact on farm families.

Hartney's mayor, Bruce Evans, said it best, "This government is ignoring this area, and the best they have told us is to pray for the borders to open." This has left the community suffering. I do not think I have ever seen people as depressed as this. This government talks about the concern and they do nothing.

2514 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 My question to the Minister of Family Services is this: Why is she not taking responsibility for these families who are vulnerable and in need of help? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, it is regrettable that government action that the member wants to personalize, an effort that has been undertaken by a team dealing with individuals. When the rural stress line was cut out by members opposite, we reintroduced it, and thousands of people are taking advantage of it.

When additional funding and positions were required for the rural stress line, we took resources from this government and provided it. When Assiniboine region required mental health assistance in the form of a mental health worker, we provided them with resources long before the member opposite realized it or even mentioned it as an issue. When the other region, North-Eastman, required mental health assistance, we hired and put in place individuals to do that, Mr. Speaker. Actions speak far louder than words.

That is, in fact, what has happened from this government. * (13:55) Winnipeg Regional Health Authority Surgical Program Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Two days ago the Minister of Health's answers to serious questions raised about bed closures or surgery cuts were unacceptable. He refused to calm fears that 100 beds could be closed in Winnipeg hospitals in order for the WRHA to avoid a surgery program deficit, but he did confirm that the system will change. I want to ask him will that change include the closure of 100 beds in Winnipeg hospitals. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I will not say what the member said on May 23. That very member when she said, "The Tory bed closures in the 1990s of 1400 beds was, a debedding was, a good thing." We intend, and we have, improved and enhanced. When members opposite did nothing to the cardiac program, we have now changed and moved the cardiac program to one centre following the recommendations of the Koshal report. You cannot take 1300 to 1500 heart surgeries and move them into one centre and not have other movements around the system.

Rather than closing 1400 beds, which was a good thing in the 1990s, we are moving things around the system. I think it is a good thing to improve and have more surgeries. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health likes to misrepresent questions that were asked in Estimates. He has had years of experience doing that. Also, the questions that are asked in Estimates in that instance were being put forward by policy centres in Manitoba and in the States.

If the hundred beds are not closed and if the surgery program is expected to stay within budget, the WRHA said that they would then be forced to significantly cut the number of major surgical cases done. Manitobans have a right to know if the Minister of Health accepted this proposal, especially because it is going to have a huge impact on patient waiting times. I would like to ask the Minister of Health: Did he approve the cutting of a significant number of major surgical cases? Mr.

Chomiak: The significant proposal that the member is talking about was a planning budgetary document that is months old, that is from last year, that was a planning exercise undertaken by the WRHA as part of their $1.2-billion budget with respect to a surgical program. In fact, we have increased cardiac surgeries and the Canadian Association of Radiologists and orthopedics has recognized we have done the best number of surgeries for hips and knees of anywhere in the country; hardly a decrease, hardly like what happened in the 1990s.

The member can spin out whatever planning document she wants, but I recall two years ago when there was a planning document and the member said, "You are going to fire and fire nurses." The only time nurses have been fired in Manitoba is a thousand and that occurred in the 1990s. Mrs. Driedger: The minister acknowledges there was a planning document. That planning document indicated that there either be a cut of 100 beds or a significant cut of the number of major surgical cases or that the deficit in the surgical program at the WRHA would be maintained. He is obviously aware of all of this.

Out of all of those options, which option did he approve?

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2515 Mr. Chomiak: The planning document which was a planning document that the member leaked and indicated was some kind of policy decision is part of the budgetary process that we do here every year. I can tell the member that we are increasing the number of surgeries, and we are moving surgeries around. We have taken surgeries from St. Boniface orthopedic surgeries and moved them to Concordia Hospital. We have taken surgeries and moved them to the place the members opposite said not to which is Pan Am Clinic so that we can do more surgeries cheaper.

We have taken cataract surgeries that cost more at Western Surgical and are doing them cheaper at Misericordia and at Pan Am, hardly a decrease in fact an increase, and cheaper. We will continue to expand surgeries and that is what planning exercises are all about. * (14:00) Gun Registration Offences Prosecutions Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

A major local newspaper released an intern al policy directive, and it states in regard to gun registration, "It turns out that provincial Crown attorneys have been instructed to prosecute gun registration and licensing violations in some cases as long as the federal government pays, but Ottawa says it has no plans to pay and has never been approached by Manitoba to discuss the issue." Mr.

Speaker, we have had a resolution in which it states, "the government," the Manitoba govern- ment, "will not prosecute registration offences under the Firearms Act." My question to the Minister of Justice is simply, if a member of the Hells Angels is found with a firearm that is not registered, would this government prosecute. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, our prosecution policy is clear. I believe it is being reflected by prosecution policies across Canada.

The gun registration scheme, that ill-conceived waste, that boondoggle, is rightly to be administered by the federal government, federal prosecutors. They are accountable for it. Where does the member stand on the gun regis- tration scheme that was recommitted to by the federal Liberals today? Mr. Lamoureux: I think the Minister of Justice needs to be very clear on this issue. Is it the position of this government that if a firearm is found to not be registered and in the hands of a member of the Hells Angels or any other gang, this government would not prosecute?

Is that what the government is saying, you would not prosecute if a member of the Hells Angels was found to have an illegal firearm that was not registered? Mr. Mackintosh: It is obvious what the position of the Liberal members in this House is, Mr. Speaker, and I think it is regrettable. Of course, the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) was one of the creators of this ill-conceived scheme. I think today the federal government unfor- tunately has spit in the eyes, particularly of western Canada, of common sense and of fiscal responsibility by recommitting to this gun registration scheme.

I am disappointed the member opposite would not support us in opposing this silly boondoggle. Mr. Lamoureux: I am disappointed in this minister, or in this government, who tries to give Manitobans the impression that he wants to get tough on gangs. Day after day he attempts to try to tell Manitobans that Manitoba is not a place for gangs, but if they are in violation of a federal law, he is telling his prosecutors not to charge them. Shame. The minister is cherry-picking. I want to get a ministerial statement that is very clear.

If a gang member is found with a gun that is not registered, why does he feel that is going to make Manitoba safer? Answer the specific question. Do not tell me about the cherry-picking of the laws that you do not like. If you want to talk about that, provide a list of the laws you do not like and you are not going to prosecute. That is just a stupid answer. Mr. Mackintosh: When I hear the word "stupid" I cannot help but think of that gun registry. Mr. Speaker, I want to remind members, and indeed the particular member, that there are Liberal

2516 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 provincial governments in Canada that have similar approaches. This is a federal law. The federal government can be accountable for its administration and enforcement, and that is the view of govern- ments across this country. When it comes to gang prosecutions, it is this government that put in place a 10-person gang prosecution team. We do not need lessons from the members opposite about gun registration. Believe me, that is a mess. Advancing Age Strategy Update Ms.

Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): Can the Acting Minister responsible for Seniors please inform the House about the government's strategy on aging? Hon. Christine Melnick (Acting Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to be speaking on behalf of the Minister for Seniors (Mr. Rondeau) in Manitoba today, who is at this moment at a sod-turn ing ceremony for a 55-plus complex. Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to update the House on our strategy, Advancing Age, promoting older Manitobans, which was announced last April as a new strategy for seniors in Manitoba.

Through this strategy, we have created education programs for seniors on elder abuse, fraud and ageism. In the budget of 2003-04, we provided four key seniors' organizations with $80,000 so they could work with the Seniors Directorate in the development of this strategy. I would very much like to take the opportunity to thank Age and Opportunity, Creative Retirement Manitoba, Manitoba Society of Seniors, and la Féderation des aînés franco-manitobaine for their very valuable contribution. Justice System Trial Delays Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): The issue of court backlogs is a very serious one.

Last week we heard that there are 2146 criminal cases that have not been brought to trial for over two years. Today we hear that John Allingham, who was charged with a child pornography offence and who was charged in February of 2002 still has no trial date. What possible excuse can this Minister of Justice dream up to justify a child pornography case, an offence against Manitoba children, taking more than two years to be brought to trial? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): I would urge the member opposite, first of all, to get his facts right.

He has come into this House on repeated occasions in the last three weeks with wrong information. In terms of backlogs, for the first time in Manitoba history, there is a backlog-reduction strategy underway headed by the Chief Judge. Mr. Hawranik: The Justice Minister obviously does not even agree with the figures produced by his own department. Child pornography is a serious crime against Manitoba children. To sustain a delay of more than two years without setting a trial date would have taken remand after remand after remand.

It is time the Justice Minister stands up for Manitoba children to ensure that this case goes to trial almost immediately. Will this minister stand up for Manitoba children? Mr. Mackintosh: When Stats Canada did a study with Dr. Jane Ursel's assistance on backlogs in Manitoba courts under the former administration, she discovered that child abuse cases were taking over 18 months. I remind members opposite that 86 percent of the cases in Manitoba now ar e dealt with in under 18 months, but child abuse cases have been prioritized, Mr.

Speaker, and not just in terms of one prosecutor per file where that is at all possible. As well, we do have a child friendly courtroom and waiting room. We have a child friendly policy in place, and there are new funds in the budget to support child victims. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, the police have done their job by investigating this case and they have laid the charges more than two years ago, yet the accused does not even have a trial date. At this pace, a trial date would not be held until more than three years after the charges were laid.

This comes from a minister who says that child abuse cases are a priority; more than three years, probably, before that trial date will be held. What will this minister say to the victims of this crime, to the Manitoba children and their families who have waited at this point more than two years for justice?

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2517 Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, we will certainly make inquiries as to the circumstances of this. Delay is caused by a number of factors. Sometimes it is defence tactics, sometimes it is the role of the court, sometimes it is prosecution issues, sometimes it is preliminary inquiries which we have asked the federal government to abolish. I also want to leave with members this. During our term of office, we have increased resources to the prosecution service by 67 percent, Mr. Speaker. Now that is a commitment. * (14:10) Pharmacare Deductible Increase Mr.

Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, concerned citizens continue to call our toll-free Pharmacare phone number 1-877-NDP-CUTS, as well as write us, sharing their outrage at the Doer government's repeated Pharmacare hikes. Mr. Stanley Oleson, on behalf of him and his wife, wrote to the Minister of Health to, quote, "register my displeasure to the treme ndous increase in our 2004- 2005 Pharmacare deductible." Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Health: What does he say to seniors such as Mr. and Mrs. Oleson, whose deductibility has risen not the 5 percent that he keeps saying, but has risen $768 or 39 percent? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, the vast majority of indivi- duals who have received Pharmacare deductible increases, 85 percent will see an increase of $1 to $9 per month. Now, as I have indicated on many occasions, it was not something that we wanted to do, but the Pharmacare budget has gone up in double digits, 15 percent and 20 percent every year.

If we want to cover all the drugs for all of the people, the $25,000-a-year drugs that people cannot afford like the Gleevec and the MS drugs and some of the other drugs that have come on-stream, we wanted a program that was universal, not like in some provinces where only chronic diseases get covered or only seniors get covered or you have to put a co-payment in or in some provinces everybody pays a premium. We wanted a fair universal program based on income. The majority of Manitobans will see a small increase. That is regrettable but we want to save our program.

Fire Hydrant Access (Springfield) Turnaround Construction Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): I raise an issue today in this House that is of great importance to the Rural Municipality of Springfield. After the fire at Hi-Qual which showed what happens when there is a lack of water, I have on several occasions, once, September 18, 2003, and just recently on May 13, 2004, raised the issue with two different ministers of Transportation. It has to do with the turnaround at PR 206 and PTH 15.

I asked the minister if he would just extend a letter granting the R.M. of Springfield the right to build a turnaround at no cost to the province. It will cost an envelope, a letter and a stamp. Will the minister give permission to the R.M. of Springfield so that timely access to the fire hydrant to get water to fires in th e R.M. of Springfield can take place? I ask the minister will he please give his approval. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): The member from Springfield asked this question before in the Estimates process.

At that time I answered it in this manner: Yes, we support our volunteer fire depart- ments in many ways, to have extra access or egress off a major highway and close to a major intersection where there is a lot of traffic is a serious issue because safety is an ultimate concern for us, that we would really look at this in a serious way and have the department officials in that local region take a look at that particular plan and take a look at what they could do in consultation with the local councillors and the fire department. I told the member at that time that we would look into it.

That is exactly what the department is doing. Having said that, the member should note that this department is doing a lot with regard to the northeast perimeter that runs right through Springfield, a $65-million project. I hope he is appreciative of that work we are doing. Justice System Conditional Sentencing Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice spoke earlier in Question Period regarding a prosecution policy. We have been asking a question in this House about having a policy in

2518 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 terms of when a conditional sentence is an appro- priate sentence and when that recommendation should come forward. I wonder now that the Minister of Justice has given approval on giving policy direction within his department if he will tell us if he has given that clear direction on when it is appropriate to ask for a conditional sentence to his prosecutors and his department. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): There are rumours about a federal election, Mr. Speaker.

I would urge the member opposite to make good use of this oppor- tunity to impress on the federal government the need to make unavailable for serious violent crimes, conditional sentences. That is what this is all about. I wish that he would join with the other provinces in Canada, I think virtually unanimously, to ask for a tightening up of conditional sentences because the change has to happen in the Parliament of Canada, through the federal government. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Eunice Fatemehin-Oladele Mr. Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, I rise today to inform the House of a very special person and constituent in Wolseley, Eunice Fatemehin- Oladele. Eunice came to Canada from Nigeria in 2000 with her children, where she was fleeing persecution, severe discrimination and indeed her very life was at risk. Upon settling in Winnipeg, Eunice and her family applied for refugee status. Upon arriving Eunice became involved in the Nigerian community here through Folklorama, the Westminster Housing Co-operative and other local organizations.

She found employment as a health care aide and was studying to become a nurse when she received the terrible news that her refugee claim was being rejected by the federal government. A huge community effort sprang up instantly to support Eunice and her family through this difficult time. Neighbours, friends, faith groups, co-workers and organizations campaigned strongly on Eunice's behalf to the federal Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, the Honourable Judy Sgro. I particularly want to commend my colleague Pat Martin, MP for Winnipeg Centre, for the key role that he and his staff played in this effort.

All of these people asked that the minister at the federal level ensure justice was being done in this case, that there be a fair review of the facts. I was very glad to lend my support to this effort along with the support of city councillor, Jenny Gerbasi. Miraculously the federal minister listened to the community and intervened in the case, overturning the decision to deny Eunice and her children refugee status. Thankfully they now are looking forward to becoming permanent Canadian residents and living here in Manitoba.

I was very honoured to attend a huge celebration at Eunice's home at the Westminster Housing Co-op where there were traditional foods, traditional dancing and an enormous number of smiles as we all celebrated the amazing accomplishment that had been achieved. I also want to commend the federal minister for righting a wrong that never should have happened. Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend all community members who worked so diligently to ensure that Eunice and her family received a fair hearing. Thank you very much. Fire Hydrant Access (Springfield) Mr.

Ron Schuler (Springfield): In September, 2003, the Municipality of Springfield approved fund- ing for a 75- to 100-foot road that would provide firefighters with better and safer access to the area's only water supply. Today the project remains in limbo due to the NDP's inaction in approving the fully funded municipal project. This project is completely funded by the Municipality of Springfield. The NDP government has no role in it other than to provide the necessary approval to allow construction to begin. What does delaying this project accomplish? Does someone have to die before action is taken?

The proposed access road would allow fire trucks to fill up with water by pulling up beside the area's only water supply instead of backing up the fire vehicle to the outlet some 300 feet. Backing up these vehicl es is dangerous because if they get off the road and get stuck, they cannot respond promptly. Often they have to go forward and

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2519 reverse and forward and reverse to make sure they line up with the fire hydrant. Under the present system, if a vehicle gets stuck it blocks all the other vehicles from being refilled and that hinders response times. The Springfield fire depa rtment services roughly six square miles, including the town of Dugald, from that particular pumping station. The department has access to only one body of water to fill its water tanks. It has been over nine months since our first discussion and still nothing has been done. Any delay in response times can mean lives, Mr.

Speaker. I would point out to the House that this is an important issue consider ing that the Hi-Quall fire was allowed to get out of hand because there was not enough water available, that there was not access to water in a timely fashion. The R.M. is even prepared to go so far as to put two posts and a chain across so that there is no turnaround by the public and only the fire department. I hope that all members of this House support safety, support the R.M. of Springfield. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St.

James): The Second Battalion Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry stationed at Kapyong Barracks will be departing Winnipeg this summer and moving to CFB Shilo. The loss of these fine soldiers and their families is very sad for the community. Many of the serving members of the unit and their families are actively involved in the com- munity. Charitable organizations in Winnipeg will be losing some of their most dedicated volunteers. We will also lose coaches, scout leaders and many other volunteer workers.

As the battalion moves to Shilo it is not only the soldiers but also their spouses who will be changing their places of employment. There are two dozen nurses along with teachers, public servants, and many others leaving us. These families make up a very significant Francophone community. I am also very proud to have École Roméo Dallaire, a school that serves many military families in my constituency of St. James. However, our loss here in Winnipeg will be Brandon's gain.

Even as I see so many wonderful neighbours move to Shilo I am glad to know that they will find opportunities in their new community. * (14:20) I am proud to be part of a government which has taken action to improve the lives of our armed forces personnel. Our recent budget included new tax breaks for military and police personnel deployed outside of Canada. We have passed legislation to ensure that Canadian Forces members and their families keep their right to vote and retain their driver's licence benefits while serving in other countries and provinces.

I want to reiterate our appreciation of the energy and goodwill that the PPCLI families have brought to their work in the community. It is an honour for me and for members of this House to represent the members of PPCLI and their families. Their presence will be missed here in Winnipeg, but never forgotten. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Charleswood. An Honourable Member: No. No, no, I was not in my seat. Steinbach Carillon Budget Editorial Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, I will take a crack at it. It is nice to be speaking right after the member of St.

James who referenced the budget and some of the budget cuts that she says were important within the budget. I also would like to reference the last provincial budget and the Steinbach Carillon that under an editorial placed the headline: "Into one pocket, out another." In that editorial, the Steinbach Carillon properly points out that there was a sense of desperation that came from the budget and the sense of desperation in the language because any heft there was in Monday's budget was achieved by detailing every new day care space being funded and virtually every new mile of road being paved.

There was very little else in the budget for Manitobans to be proud of. So I think it is important to bring forward, as members in the last few days have been raising issues about how things are going well, and the budget is going well, and there are

2520 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 taxes being decreased, that Manitobans are seeing through that rhetoric, Mr. Speaker, that Manitobans are seeing through what th is government is putting forward. They see, as the Steinbach Carillon references in their article, the inescapable fact is that the government despite taking in more than a billion dollars in new revenue over the past few years has already spent it. That is the shame of it.

When these members opposite try to bring forward rhetoric and try to bring forward smoke and mirrors to convince Manitobans that things are going well, real Manitobans are seeing through that and seeing the truth. It is represented in this article, the Steinbach Carillon. I commend the editorial board of the Steinbach Carillon for seeing through the rhetoric of this government and showing Manitobans what is really happening in this province. Thank you very much. Transcona Child-Parent Centre Mr. Bidhu Jha (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, I was delighted to attend the first annual general meeting of the Transcona Child-Parent Centre Coalition yesterday evening. This community-based group is funded by Healthy Child Manitoba and works to develop initiatives and promote public awareness of nutrition, parenting, literacy and building community capacity. Last night was also a celebration of all excellent programs that the Transcona coalition supports and provides through the community. This support is in numerous community programs such as parenting programs, teen-parent groups, community kitchen, rock and read and pre-kindergarten programs.

Their home site is located in the Robson Street blocks and offers family activities, parenting resources and children's activities. They have planted a wonderful community garden to provide fresh produce and their community kitchen gives the important nutrition information and advice. They will be starting a clothing exchange in June providing used clothing to parents in exchange for other clothing. I am proud to be a part of the government that invests in community development. Through the Healthy Child Manitoba funding we are giving hope and opportunity to develop sustainable community projects.

I would like to recognize Sandy Owczar, the outgoing co-chair of the Child-Parent Coalition. I know that Sandy has worked very hard to develop the idea of community coalition from the early stages to build a strong and vibrant community organ- ization. I would also like to recognize the contributions of Donna Jervis, the co-chair, and Dayna Brentnall, the community connector, and thank all of its board members and volunteers for their ongoing commit- ment. Mr.

Speaker, the Transcona Child-Parent Centre Coalition is a wonderful organization in the community and we all admire the dedication with which the coalition has been striving to create greater opportunities for our children. Thank you. * (14:30) ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Mr. Speaker: To resume Orders of the Day. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Finance Minister, I have a revised message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, which I would like to table. Mr. Speaker: Please rise for the reading of the message.

The Lieutenant-Governor transmits to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba revised Estimates of sums required for the services of the Province for capital expenditures and recommends these Estimates to the Legislative Assembly. Please be seated. House Business Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is an agreement to change the Estimates sequence, to move the Estimates for Employee Pensions and Other Costs from 254 into the Chamber ahead of Enabling and Appropriations; and for the Estimates for Legislative Assembly to be moved from 255 to 254, and for the Estimates for

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2521 Sport to be moved from 254 into the Chamber to follow Capital Investment, with these changes to apply permanently? Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement to change the Estimates sequence to move the Estimates for Employee Pensions and Other Costs from Room 254 into the Chamber ahead of Enabling and Appropriations, and for the Estimates for Legislative Assembly to be moved from Room 255 to Room 254, and for the Estimates for Sport to be moved from 254 into the Chamber to follow Capital Investment, with these changes to apply perma- nently?

Is there agreement? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, just on the assump- tion that Estimates may end this afternoon, is there agreement that when the House resumes sitting later today that there will be no quorum? Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement if Estimates are concluded this afternoon that when we resume sitting in the House that there would be no quorum? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Would you please call Supply, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 23(5), the House will now resolve into the Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Mr.

Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will now be considering the Estimates of the Legislative Assembly. Does the honourable Speaker of the House have an opening statement? Hon. George Hickes (Speaker of the Manitoba Legislative Assembly): I sure do. Mr. Chairperson: The floor is yours, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Hickes: This afternoon I will be defending the Estimates of the Legislative Assembly. For several years, the Speaker defended the Assembly Estimates on a trial basis. LAMC agreed in the last year that the Speaker will be the permanent defender for the Legislative Assembly Estim ates.

I look forward to any comments or questions that members may have. I have in attendance advising me today, Ms. Patricia Chaychuk, who is the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly; Mr. Fred Bryans, who is the Executive Director of Administration; and Ms. Susan Scott, who is the Director of Members' Services. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Speaker for those comments. Does the official opposition representative, the honourable Member for Russell, have any opening comments? Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Yes, I do, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chairperson: The floor is yours. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chair, my opening comments would simply consist of showing some appreciation to the Speaker of our House and also to his staff for the work and the service that they provide to the Legislative Assembly. I think we are fortunate as legislators to have a Speaker and staff who really care about the independence of the Speaker's office and also who care about all members of the House. I would have to say that we in Manitoba have been served extremely well by the office of the Speaker and his staff over the course of the last year. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the member for those remarks.

Did the committee wish to have a chronological or global discussion of these Estimates? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I think it would be appropriate for us to simply go global. Mr. Chairperson: Agreed and so ordered. We will have a global discussion. The floor is open for questions. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, as in the past, I think it has been customary for us to have some general questions if there are, and then we would be prepared to pass the Estimates globally, as quickly as possible.

2522 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 Mr. Chairperson: The floor is open for questions. Mr. David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): I just want to compliment the Speaker of the Assembly, who has made a significant effort to promote the understanding of the procedures that go on in and about the Legislative Assembly by his attendance to numerous schools throughout the province. I know that he has put a lot of miles on in the last couple of years trying to do just that, and I know it is appreciated. So I would like to get specifically to a couple of considerations for the Chamber itself.

I know in past there has been discussion as to affording the members of the Assembly a time clock, perhaps being located on the Clerk of the Assembly's table in the centre of the Chamber, but I am wanting to query as to whether or not we can change up the clock that exists at the back of this Chamber because, to my assessment, it is not a clock that was on the wall when this Chamber was constructed and I would like to see if there is consideration of that to possibly have two functions within the clock, one being the hour of the day, and two, being the lapsed time of individuals that have the Speaker's eye and are participating in debate or discussion.

That is just a comment I would like to leave for your consideration, sir, in addition to the numerous other considerations, and I would like to share with you at a later time whether it be the carpet or the peeling paint or the consideration toward the air con- ditioning. Mr. Hickes: I do welcome questions because if there is any opportunity to improve either the Chamber or the services that assemblies can provide for members, we will never know that unless someone raises it with us.

I really appreciate your comment about the outreach program, and I appreciate you thanking me for the miles and the time I put into it. It is not a one-man show. So I just want to share those thanks with the members that we have been fortunate enough to be invited to their constituencies. Also, I want to share the thanks with the Clerk and her office who have assisted in the outreach program. With the contributions of the sitting MLA, myself and the Clerk's office, I hope that we are helping educate our youth and some day they will pass that on to their own children. That is the goal of it.

I thank you for that and we will continue doing the best we can. Your question about the cl ock, a year or so ago I had brought forward a proposal to Legislative Assembly Management Committee, and I had proposed that we get a digital clock on the wall. Oh, I am sorry, it was not LAMC, it was to the House leaders. I had proposed a countdown clock for members. For example, if you are doing a 30-minute speech it would be set at 30 and you would see a countdown and then you would know exactly how much time you have instead of someone having to run to the table all the time.

I thought it was a wonderful idea and that it would be of assistance to all the members, but when the House leaders took it back to their caucuses, what was reported back to me at that time was that there was not the will, but if there is interest, and I see new interest, so I would be happy to bring it forward again. As I said, if we can improve the services, that is what it should be all about. Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions? We will get on with the resolutions.

I will read the resolution into the record. * (14:40) Resolution 1.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,479,300 for Legislative Assembly, Other Assembly Expenditures, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 1.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,579,100 for Legislative Assembly, Office of the Auditor General, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 1.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,424,500 for Legislative Assembly, Office of the Ombudsman, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 1.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2523 $1,161,000 for the Legislative Assembly, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 1.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $726,200 for Legislative Assembly, Office of the Children's Advocate, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 1.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $157,700 for Legislative Assembly, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to. That concludes the Estimates for the Legislative Assembly and this year's proceedings for this

section of the Committee of Supply. I would like to thank all members and departmental st aff for their hard work throughout this process. Committee rise. Thank you very much. FAMILY SERVICES AND HOUSING * (14:40) Madam Chairperson (Bo nnie Korzeniowski): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will be continuing with consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Family Services and Housing. It was previously agreed to consider this department globally. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Previous to beginning questions, we do have some information that was inquired about in our previous discussions that we would like to present. I do have some preliminary comments for each document, so I will just read those through.

This is additional information required from the Services for Persons with Disabilities, the Supported Living program, around the staffing stabilization phase 3. There were 143 agencies and eligible participants, 101 agencies and 42 In the Company of Friends participants eligible to apply for phase 3 of the staffing stabilization initiative. The Supported Living program has received 138 applications for funding, 99 from agencies and 39 from the In the Company of Friends.

As of March 19, 2004, 94 agencies and 32 In the Company of Friends partici- pants have received funding based on confirmation of establishing pension and/or benefit programs. So I have the list of agencies that the member asked for previously and I would like to table those lists. Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Thank you, and I am looking forward to receiving them. Ms. Melnick: Another piece of additional informa- tion that we would like to present today is from the division of Employment Income and Housing. The program is Housing, particularly through the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation.

The issue was the letter from the housing complex in Newdale, Manitoba. It was not a question put forward by yourself but one of your colleagues, the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach). When this committee last met, the honourable Member for Russell asked a question about a letter from a housing complex in Newdale, Manitoba. I would like to confirm that the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation did in fact receive a letter from the Newdale Senior Citizens' Home, Inc. in late October, 2003, and forwarded a response on January 13, 2004.

Staff also met with the organization in February, 2004, and are continuing to work with this group to try to explore possible solutions to the issues that have been raised. So we do not have a document that goes with it. I am just giving you more of a verbal response. Mrs. Rowat: Thank you, and I will share the information with the Member for Russell. Ms. Melnick: On the third piece of additional information, this dealt with the division of Services for Persons with Disabilities.

The program is Employment and Income Assistance, and the issue was the last increase for EIA mileage rates for medical appointments, again a question raised by one of your colleagues that I have a verbal response to.

2524 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 Mileage rates paid to EIA participants, primarily in rural areas who use their own vehicle to attend medical appointments, was last increased on April 5, 1982, to 13 cents per kilometre. We cannot determine what the rates were prior to April 5, 1982. Another additional piece of information dealt with agencies currently under investigation which, I believe, was a question put forward by the member. The department routinely conducts reviews of programs and services to ensure value for funds provided. To our knowledge, no other organizations are under investigation.

The member may want to check with the office of the Auditor General to determine any audits that are currently underway. I believe we are up to item 6 for additional information. This deals with the division of Child and Family Services. The program is Family Violence Protection Program. The issue was the expansion of provincial sales tax impact on agencies, and I believe it was the member who made this request. The Family Viol ence Prevention Program provides funding and program support to 10 women's shelters across Manitoba.

The shelters provide protective emergency accommodations for abused women and their children on a 24-hour basis, seven days a week. Support services include residential and non-residential crisis intervention, individual and group counselling, protection planning, children's counselling, parenting support and follow-up support for abused women and their children. In addition, the shelter offers public education and training on domestic violence issues. The expansion of the provincial sales tax may impact shelters and other agencies in two ways.

Firstly, when an audit is performed by an accountant and, secondly, on any legal fees the shelter may encounter. Legal services are usually sought around collective agreements or human resource issues. There are no specific figures on legal fees incurred by shelters. However, the extent to which shelters incur legal costs is limited, and some shelters may go many years without incurring any legal costs. Shelters do conduct annual audits as per the government's funding requirement. Shelter audits range from $1,400 to $4,100, with the average cost being $2,500.

The PST on audits would range from $100 to $290, with the average being $175. The expansion of the PST will not impact the level or range of services received by women and children requiring the assistance of a shelter. The department estimates that the impact of the expansion of the PST on other funded agencies will be similar to the impact on women's shelters and that this expansion will not affect the level or range of social services available in the province. Mrs. Rowat: I just have clarification regarding that report. You had indicated that there would be no reduction in services.

Some of the centres will be seeing a reduction in dollars to use for programming of up to $300. How could that not impact the services that they are going to be providing? Ms. Melnick: Our understanding is that there will not be a reduction in services, that this would be part of the funding for administrative services is our understanding. Mrs. Rowat: If there is a reduction in the amount of money that they are going to have available to provide services for the clients, for the families, definitely some services or programs will have to be cut.

They will not be able to deliver all the services that they had planned if there is a reduction of at least even just $300. Ms. Melnick: We do not feel that there will be a reduction in services. Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): The minister is saying this would come out of their current funding. Has the minister undertaken to lobby with the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) for an exemption for non-profit services such as this? Ms. Melnick: The agencies that we fund have received a 2% increase this year.

Another point that I would like to make is if there is an accountant, a lawyer, et cetera, sitting on the board that the PST will not be charged. Mr. Cummings: If you are prepared to have a board member who could almost be perceived to have a conflict of interest sit on the board and be exempt, why would you not simply provide an exemption? Ms. Melnick: I do not perceive a conflict of interest. I think it is bringing expertise. Many boards already have this expertise. We believe that with the 2% increase that this will help them more than cover any costs that they would incur. Mrs.

Rowat: I think this is putting undue stress on some of the centres that are already providing a

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2525 service in an area that is high stress by encouraging them. To seek somebody with the skills to do the accounting is, I guess, basically a good idea, but it is not always going to be able to be realized by the centres. The minister had indicated that there is a 2% increase in funding to the shelters. Is that what she had indicated? * (14:50) Ms. Melnick: I am sorry, could you repeat the end of your question. Mrs. Rowat: Madam Chair, a 2% increase to shelters, is that what you had said? Ms.

Melnick: In our budgeting we have provided a 2% increase, effective October 1, to the agencies that we fund. Mrs. Rowat: Could the minister give me the statistical percentage of increase in usage of shelters over the last year? Ms. Melnick: We could get the specifics. It is about the same usage as last year. With the information I have just been provided, we have actually seen a decrease in the use of shelters for the '03-04 fiscal year. Mrs. Rowat: And the '02-03? Ms. Melnick: It was down. We have been seeing a decrease: '03-04 was less than '02-03; '02-03 was less than '01-02. Mrs.

Rowat: Could the minister provide me with the numerical numbers for '02-03 and also for '03-04 for Nova House in Selkirk and also for the Westman shelter in Brandon? Ms. Melnick: I am sorry, Nova House in Selkirk and Westman shelter in Brandon? We were requested for usage at Nova House in Selkirk. I will go through that first and then the second shelter that you requested information on. So for '02-03, the total clients for Nova House were 513 and the total bed nights were 3469. Now, if we go to '03-04, the numbers are still being finalized, but I will give you what we have as of today. No, pardon me.

These are actual counts. For Nova House, total clients 318 and bed nights 3152. Then, if we go for shelter information/price-line calls for Nova House, the numbers for '02-03 are 818. Now we are still finalizing the numbers on this one, but the number that we have for '03-04 is 720. Okay, that is the year, '03-04, yes. That is okay. Now if we go to Westman. Okay, the Westman statistics for '03-04, pardon me '02-03: Total clients 312, so 312 and if we go to bed nights 3360. If we go to '03-04 for Westman, total clients 245 and total bed nights 3764. Do you want the crisis calls as well. Okay.

Shelter information/crisis line calls for '02-03, 1206, and for '03-04, 1019. Okay. * (15:00) Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I have several questions here for the minister. First of all, just to put it in context, the question will be, the first one is specific to Gateway Resources which is located in Winkler, Manitoba, and of course they work together co-operatively within the Morden-Winkler and surrounding area.

But the issue is one, and I know I brought it up last year as well, but just in discussion with the CEO running Gateway Resources as late as two weeks ago, there still seems to be a discrepancy between the funding that th ey receive for those who are disadvantaged. In this case and I believe you panel them, is that correct? Is that the right word when they are determined as to the disabilities that they would have as to degree of severity? Whatever the term used, I am not hung up on that.

The problem is that I have had two situations where if the same client would go to a neighbouring community, which would be probably 40 kilometres east of Winkler, the funding for that same person would be quite different from what they are receiving for this individual at Gateway Resources. Now I know it has been an ongoing issue where it appears to me, and in the discussion that I have had with the CEO and other areas, that the funding is not consistent throughout, this I guess would be the central region, for the same what I would call disability of a client.

I am just wondering if this is still consistent with the way the department is operating, or are these people falling through the cracks, or what would be the reason for this disparity?

2526 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 Ms. Melnick: I am very aware of the situation at Gateway. It is an issue of concern within the department. Gateway did request an overall review of day-service funding, which we are currently conducting. The review is not complete but I know that the department has been working very closely with them over the last while to try to resolve the concerns that have been raised. Mr. Dyck: I appreciate hearing that answer. Could the minister give me a date or a reasonable time frame in which this could take place?

I think, if memory serves me correctly, and I may need to look back in my notes, but I think I received somewhat of a similar answer about a year ago. We are still at quite a differential in payment structures. I am just wondering if I could have a date as to when this will be resolved and when they would be communicating that information back to Gateway. Ms. Melnick: My understanding is there is a meeting with the board chair on June 7, with the department and the board chair, to discuss the next steps. Mr.

Dyck: Just to pursue that, th ere is a recognition of the fact that there is a differential and a disparity in payment that is received for the same people with the same disabilities. My issue is, and it has been for a number of years, but the funding is, I believe, not consistent throughout the region or even if you want to look at the urban area here. I do not want to have a rural-urban one against the other. I do think, though, that the needs of the clients, wherever they are, depending on disability are the same.

I would like to make sure that there is a consistency in funding, whether that be rural, urban or whether that be within regions even. My question is simply is there a recognition of the fact that something needs to be done, because to me this is not new. I have been here for a number of years and have had that same concern year after year. Ms. Melnick: Certainly we are aware of the concerns raised by Gateway, which is why we are conducting the review at their request. We will continue to work with them through this. The next meeting is on June 7, as I mentioned.

My under- standing is the focus of that meeting is to determine the next steps. Mr. Dyck: Okay, thank you. I mean, I am hoping that as a result that can be resolved and I certainly appreciate that answer. The other question I have, and there are several questions following, but it is a letter that the minister was copied on. I was also copied on this letter. It was sent out to Central CFS, but it is regarding, just to give you a little bit of a background and possibly to refresh your memory in this, I will just read from the letter here, parts of it.

I will not be specific with names in order to just preserve that. To give the context of it, the letter states, "When we adopted Nicholas, both you and we understood that he had significant special needs.

We did not make our commitment to adopt lightly and continue to value and love everything that Nicholas–even though his entrance into our family has dramatically changed our lives." The letter indicates fairly clearly, and I know these people and I know that they would not write a letter of this nature light-heartedly, but I will refer it to, first of all, my first question, where it says, and he indicates that mileage rates have been more than cut in half and that payments for parking and meal expenses have been cancelled completely.

As I say, I know this family, and their letter goes on to say that their family income has been cut in half because the now-mother of this child was a nurse and is not pursuing her occupation in order to look after the child. Further to that, they had an agreement, and in the letter it further indicates that the contract as far as they are concerned has been violated because they felt that they had a deal or a contract when they adopted this child, that there would be also monies that would be flowing with it. I am just wondering if the minister could make a comment to that case. Ms.

Melnick: I am, in fact, aware of this letter and we are looking into the details. If the member would like to have a discussion at a later date when we are more clear on what the situation is, I would be happy to do that. Mr. Dyck: I appreciate that and yet though this letter was sent out, I received it on April 7 and in talking to the family yesterday, they have not had a response at all so they are concerned th at nothing is happening. I am encouraged by the fact that you are looking into

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2527 it but I guess I would push on this issue because, I mean the letter also indicates they know that they are not the only ones in this kind of a situation. I am pleased by the answer. On the other hand, though, will this be looked into within the next short time and will there be a response to the family?

As they indicated they were rather shocked by first of all, the abruptness of the letter that was received and by completely in many cases, as they have indicated, violating the contract that they thought they had specific to the adoption of this child which they felt was going to be valid until the age of 18. Ms. Melnick: Yes. As I say, I am aware of the letter and we are working on it. I appreciate your sensitivity to the family as well. * (15:10) Mr. Dyck: Well, okay. I appreciate that.

I look forward then to hearing a response and will also be in touch with the family to make sure this is consistent with what their understanding is of the situation when they adopted the child. Again, I mean, they are wanting to do what is best for the child but as they have indicated puts some real, added stresses on their lives. Money does not cure those stresses and that is not what they are looking for either, but I think they would like to have recognition of the circumstance that they are in so I appreciate that. Ms.

Melnick: I think I have actually given my answer, that I am aware of it and that we are looking into the details. Mrs. Rowat: Just for clarification regarding the letter, on one specific point, mileage rates have been cut in half and payments for parking have been cancelled completely. Was that done across the board, do you know, for transportation or is that budgetary? I know that in the past there have been some issues with respite being discontinued for a period of time because of budgetary reasons until the new year. I was just wondering if that is the case here. Ms.

Melnick: We are looking into the details of the letter. Mr. Cummings: I have a couple of questions around children in care. Emergency apprehension, I suppose, is part of–emergency lodging would be maybe more appropriate. How many emergency beds does the department have available, and are they full? Ms. Melnick: Are you speaking specifically of Winnipeg? We have the numbers for Winnipeg. It is 141. Individual agencies keep track of their own bed usage so we do not have that record here. Mr.

Cummings: Well, sometimes the appropriate- ness of lodging, particularly for those who are teenagers, I guess is a perennial problem that I understand. It came to my attention that a teenager was lodged, and it seemed like it was not unusual, at the Brandon Y. Is that a normal procedure? Ms. Melnick: I am sorry. I did not understand. I did not hear the last few words. At the Brandon Y? Mr. Cummings: Yes. The Brandon Y was where he was assigned. Would that be normal? Ms. Melnick: In response to your question previously about the occupancy rate in Winnipeg, it is roughly 90 percent on an ongoing basis.

In Brandon they do not have emergency shelters. They use temporary foster placements so it may in fact not be unusual to have someone who is older placed in a more mature setting, such as the Brandon Y. That of course would be on a short-term basis. Mr. Cummings: Well, I understand the difficulty in managing these situations, but I wonder if the minister would agree that placing a 16-year-old in the Y does not do a lot for making sure that they attend school. What authority, or what capability has the department, what leverage does the department have to have a teenager of this age?

I think I know what the answer is, but I want it on the record in terms of 16-year-olds and school attendance. What leverage has the department available to try and have this age of youth do something useful? Ms. Melnick: I will give my answer, and you tell me if it is the one you thought I was going to give. [interjection] There could have been several elements leading to the youth being placed in the Y. It may have been the youth's choice. Not knowing the individual situation, I am not sure. It could have been something worked out between the agency and the youth.

The parents could have been involved in that decision as well. Without knowing the details, I think I would have to leave it pretty open-ended.

2528 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 Mr. Cummings: Well, that is fair. The minister actually touched on something that I should have included in my answer. It was a voluntary placement, but one of the concerns of the family was that the child would stay in school, and that was really the genus of my question.

Maybe the minister can correct me from the school act and other areas if, at this age in life, a student does not want to be in school, he does not have to be there by law, but is not our system contributing to the problem by supporting them but not insisting that they do something productive while they are being supported? I am not advocating kicking them out on the street. I wonder if the minister has any observations or examples of initiatives that perhaps the department has tried to deal with this problem. Ms.

Melnick: Well, again, not knowing the specifics, the arrangements with shelter placement is certainly to provide food, lodging and clothing, and we would believe that an agency would encourage a youth to attend school. It sounds like this was perhaps an ongoing problem. It may be one of the family issues that may have led to the youth going into emergency shelters, and so we would encourage the person to attend, but, as you have noted, we cannot force a person into attending school if that is not their wish. * (15:20) Mr.

Cummings: In fact, part of the problem was that the youth in this case, it was a voluntary placement, because of problems in the home and problems with the youth, but was eventually returned to the community that was originally his home and went to school for a while after some inquiries were made about why this was. I guess the concern was that the family made a voluntary placement, and that is always a concern off the top, but then one of the issues was that they wanted him to continue to be in school. When that did not happen, all of a sudden the family began to wonder.

Even though they could not function as a family, they did not want to see their child abandoned completely. That is about what happened. Sadly, just so the minister does not feel too bad, in the end the kid walked out of school again, and you have him in care again and he is not doing anything. It is a difficult situation, but I just, on behalf of the family, wanted to express a concern, knowing that the laws, the way they are written, probably does not support stronger action on the part of the minister.

I do not believe in flop houses though, and with the greatest of respect, putting a 16-year-old on the street, even though he has a place to go back to, is not very productive, unless that 16-year-old is inclined to take a job, and as long as they are being supported, they are not very inclined to take a job. So it is a vicious circle that I do not have the answer to. I thought maybe the minister might. I would like to ask a question about the Movement Centre which is a centre that I know a little bit about. They did apply to the department for some potential support to do some research.

I just wondered, there is a letter here from the minister actually indicating that their proposal was not going to be supported, but through the Manitoba Community Services Council, provided the Movement Centre with an operating grant. I just wonder, are there future opportunities? Or "opportunity" is the wrong word, because I really think there is a need in this area.

Having been a little bit disappointed in not achieving their request, obviously, does the department believe that this is something that is a valuable tool within the community and would eventually produce some valuable results to the society as a whole? Ms. Melnick: I am aware of the programs at the Movement Centre and their request for funding. Our concern is that we have yet to receive qualitative and quantitative evidence-based research that would support their programs, but we do understand that they are helping many families and many children. Mr. Cummings: I think we all appreciate that concept.

Does the department provide any assistance to organizations or groups in the province that would be considered as doing some leading-edge research, for lack of a better term, doing work that might have results or impacts beyond their own walls that would be valuable to others? Does the department finan- cially support any other organizations that would fall into that category? Ms. Melnick: We do not fund any such research through our department. Other departments, maybe, but we fund accepted techniques and existing clients. So the short answer would be no.

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2529 Mr. Cummings: I am wondering if the minister has any recommendations to this organization, or this centre, on where they would be best directed to look for some further assi stance from the broader community. Of course we all look to government for assistance first but, certainly , they are not going to get ongoing support from community services, so that is a short-term bridge . Are there other areas that the minister could point to? Ms.

Melnick: I know that there are a variety of foundations locally, nationally and internationally and I do not know if the centre has attempted to get funding from those various areas. Mr. Cummings: The centre, I know, can and does deal with a wide variety of situations, when people are dealing with, neurological problems lead to motor disabilities, if I am describing the terms appropriately. If people can gain some advantage over the problems they have been afflicted with, then they become a lot less dependent on society to help them with life.

I would certainly commend this organization to the minister and to the department, to take a serious look at their mandate and whether or not, if not in this department, there are other areas that would be of use to them because their service and expertise might not be spread as far-r eaching as it should be if they are consistently running short of cash. I do not need a response from the minister. She will get a chance to check her files on this at some point.

I would just urge her to do so and do what she can to consider the value and the expertise that can be assembled in association with this movement centre. * (15:30) I have one other question, more related to Housing, and I apologize if I am in the wrong area of responsibility. The number of seniors residence housing in the rural communities where there are kitchens, those kitchens tend to be used for a lot more than just providing meals for thei r residents. They are not assisted housing, so perhaps they do not fall under this minister's purview.

I just wondered if ther e is any policy that the minister is aware of, either in her department or others, about the use of the facilities for community activity and enhanced community activity for other residents of the community. What I am referring to is things like Meals on Wheels, that perhaps the facilities I am referring to do not fall under this minister's purview. Ms. Melnick: Just a qualifying question, are you talking about sort of general-use kitchens, sort of a general kitchen area rather than an individual's? Okay. In a housing unit or–okay.

Certainly, we have a congregate meal program here in the city where we work with the delivery of various meals. In rural areas, community kitchens are used by residents as well as by local groups, often on a voluntary basis. We have many arrangements with different groups throughout the various rural communities. We are in negotiation with other groups and would certainly welcome proposals that have yet to come forward.

The only concerns that we would have would be if a group or organization was proposing something that may require an expansion of the kitchen, either the physical space or perhaps some equipment that currently is not there. Certainly, we would encourage any groups to approach us and see if we could work with them to arrange any sort of communal kitchen arrangements. Mr. Cummings: I thank the minister for that answer because, actually, the last part of her answer was what I was wanting to hear. I think the concern that has been expressed to me revolves around where there would need to be some expansion.

I appreciate that the department might not be interested in paying for an expansion that is not part of the original mandate of the structure, but there are times when communities would be ready to provide some monetary assistance or pay for the expenses of those expansions.

I just would like it on the record that in these types of facilities and situations where communities want to become involved, I think the biggest frustration is that they need to know that if they bring forward proposals for expansion, and might even bring forward proposals that they are willing to pay for themselves, that somebody out there would listen. For some facilities, those expansions might not be all that costly and would be readily absorbed by an active community.

2530 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 There are others where there might be some, and there are always operating costs, hydro and that sort of thing that can fall back onto the residents. I would just like to make sure that the minister's door is open, or through her policy direction that she would be interested in making sure that these types of proposals are looked at in a way that provides some direction. If they are talking about a quarter-million- dollar expansion and they want to put that much investment in, the sooner they know the answer, the better.

Just from the perspective of the usefulness of those types of arrangements, it is very useful to a community to have the facilities there, and it is very easy for them to fall into the pattern of borrowing the facility to provide Meals on Wheels. After a year or two, all of a sudden they have got a lot more meals to prepare than they ever dreamed of because we do have an aging society in a lot of our rural communities, which is a major frustration for those of us who represent the areas.

A minute ago, we were talking about the difference between rural and city of Winnipeg delivery in Child and Family and access to informa- tion and how they are acco unted for separately, and for good reason, but I just want to make the case for the fact that our modest sized rural communities probably have a lot of demand in the area that I am talking about. It would be a far more important initiative in a small community like that than what might be anticipated in larger centres where there are other options because there may not be other options.

This becomes very important that there be a direct response to these types of requests. I will leave the specifics until later. Thank you. Ms. Melnick: Certainly I want to acknowledge the great work that is done by volunteer organizations throughout our province, such as Meals on Wheels which you have mentioned. It sounds like you have a particular group, a particular proposal in mind, so I strongly encourage them to bring forward a proposal.

I know it is not only under my direction but also under our assistant deputy minister's direction that proposal, as with every proposal, would be strongly considered, and where we are able to work within communities and to work with volunteer groups such as you may be suggesting, I know that if we could accommodate the needs, we would be more than happy to. Mrs. Rowat: This is also on Housing, and I just have a few questions to get on the record and get some feedback on where the government is at on a couple of projects.

The Estimates for 2004-2005, I was wondering if there are any provisions for the development of the south Fort Garry land bank, the Waverley Heights. Ms. Melnick: The Waverley West concerns are right now resting with the City of Winnipeg, and it would be a review of the Plan Winnipeg document around the development of Waverley West. Certainly with the current political situation, we do not envision anything being done around Plan Winnipeg until perhaps at the earliest the fall of this year so that is where the Waverley West is. There has been no financial provision made in the budget for this year. Mrs.

Rowat: I am curious. Public presentations by the government have linked Waverley West proposal to the issue of affordable housing. Could you sort of expand on the connection of the two projects? Ms. Melnick: I would actually be delighted to. The profits that will come in from Waverley West as well as Royalwood will be going directly back into the inner city around affordable and low- income housing. Mrs. Rowat: What is the status of the public-private partnership with Ladco regarding the Royalwood subdivision project? Ms.

Melnick: It is a joint venture and the partnership is certainly ongoing as we continue to develop the area. Mrs. Rowat: Back to the Waverley West project. Do plans for the proposed development include the construction of new housing which would qualify for the CMHC investment pursuant to the Affordable Housing agreement, or is the connection simply that profits from Waverley West will be directed to downtown, residential development as you had touched on? * (15:40) Ms. Melnick: Are you referring to the Affordable Housing Initiative?

That is a five-year plan, $25.4 million from the federal government, $25.4 million

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2531 from the province and $17.5 million from the City in monies and kind. That is a five-year plan. We are beginning year three, and we are working with community groups as well as private investors around the development of affordable and low- income housing. That money will not be going toward the Waverley West development. It will be used by communities throughout Manitoba. Mrs. Rowat: Do you have an estimate of what the profits would likely be on a project such as we have been talking about? Ms. Melnick: We have been talking about Royalwood and Waverley West.

Would you care to be more specific? An Honourable Member: Okay, the Waverley West project. Ms. Melnick: We do not have specific numbers at this time. Mrs. Rowat: I am going to leave the Housing one for now. I would like to go into the Children's Advocate report, please. In April, the Office of the Children's Advocate presented a report on the emergency assistance shelter placement review and with the report, the minister provided a response and action plan. Mr.

Rob Altemeyer, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair I would like to just spend a little bit of time on that report; and, actually, probably based on the time restraints through the Estimates process, I would like to focus on some of the strategy points that you had indicated and we will go through clarification on some of them, if you do not mind. The strategy point that I want to touch on first would be the development of the new emergency care resources, and would the minister comment on the recommendation that was made that no children under the age of seven should be placed in group care emergency facilities.

If you could comment on that, please. Ms. Melnick: Sure. We are accepting the recommendation of the Children's Advocate report. For children seven and under, we agree a shelter is not the best place for them, and so we are beginning the process of phasing out 50 of the existing shelter beds and going to be moving them into a foster family setting. We believe that a family setting, particularly for children within that age range, would be better.

The exceptions will be that we have two shelters, one currently opened and another one scheduled to open in the fall, that will deal with sibling groups, and so we would believe then that it would be best to keep siblings together whatever the age group. So that would be the only time that we would have children aged seven and under remaining in a shelter. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Acting Chair, I just want clarification. So this is the shelter system or care system that you are moving toward is a foster care environment where families will be able to work or keep family members together.

Can you give me an example of what type of an environment or setting that would be? Ms. Melnick: We have agreed that children under seven would be best placed in more of a foster family setting, so an emergency foster family setting, rather than in a shelter. So we are moving to close down 50 of the existing beds in the existing shelters and move into that, but the exception to that would be we have one shelter currently open and another opening in the fall that would deal with sibling groups.

We believe that it would be better for siblings to be staying together than be separated, and so that would be the only time that we would be placing a child seven or under in a shelter, so that they can be with their siblings. Mrs. Rowat: Are there any children under the age of eight who are currently in group-care emergency facilities? Ms. Melnick: Within the emergency shelter system in Winnipeg, there are a total of 141 beds. At any given time one third of those children in emergency shelters are under eight years of age. So I do not have an exact number for you today, but generally there is just under 50.

That is why we earmarked the number of closing the 50 shelter beds to create the 50 emergency foster beds. Mrs. Rowat: The sibling group shelter or foster care environment, how many beds would be in each of these units, the one that is now in-place and the one that the one in the fall?

2532 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 Ms. Melnick: Each of those shelters would have 6 beds. Mrs. Rowat: As the Advocate had indicated, children under the age of eight, it is highly recommended that they do not be in a shelter-type basis. I am encouraged by what you are sharing here. But, I also would like to know if there are any children under the age of eight being placed in shift- staffed emergency care shelters at this time? Ms. Melnick: Currently, all of our shelters are shift staffed, so I would say all of the children who are in the emergency shelter system are in a shift-staff environment.

Yes. Mrs. Rowat: Thank you for the clarification. How many emergency foster care beds are currently available? Ms. Melnick: I believe it is 16, but we would be happy to get that specific number for you. Mrs. Rowat: And how many new emergency foster care beds have been created, other than the 6 that she had indicated? Ms. Melnick: We are currently in the process of putting together a process of identifying the 50 beds. We believe that will be completed by the end of this fiscal year. The question was how many homes.

I cannot give you an estimate because we do not know what the breakdown of beds in individual homes will be. So, if we could talk about 50 beds, that may be an easier way to discuss it. * (15:50) Mrs. Rowat: Can you tell me what you mean by identifying, if you could clarify? Ms. Melnick: We will be sending out requests for proposals establishing crit eria, evaluating the pro- posals against the criteria. We are very hopeful that we will get a response from an organization that has experience in dealing with residential care. Mrs. Rowat: Has the committee been struck to follow through in this process? Ms.

Melnick: The implementation committee which was referred to in the report will be the one who will be–oh, pardon me. They have been meeting every two weeks, and that committee is made up of the four CEOs from the authorities, the newly created authorities, the executive director of Child Protection, Family Services and Housing, and Denis Bracken, who is co-chairing with the executive director of Child Protection. He is a professor at the University of Manitoba in the School of Social Work. This committee has already created the first draft of the RFP for the 50 beds.

They will also be leading the evaluation of any proposals that we receive. Mrs. Rowat: Has this committee structure given any consideration to having youth involved in the process, as children will be utilizing it? Ms. Melnick: We will be consulting with youth as well as several other interested stakeholders, care providers, foster parents, foster family network. There will be a range of stakeholders we will be working with through the implementation com- mittee. Mrs. Rowat: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, I would encourage the minister to have youth involved in the process, actually being right involved with the committee. I just know from past experience in community development that it I think creates a great perspective or a different thought process having the youth involved and especially somebody that has probably been through the system. Back to the foster beds that are being created.

Could the minister indicate to me what effort has been made to meet the cult urally appropriate foster care needs and where the lo cations of these foster care beds will be placed, if any consideration has been given to that at this point? Ms. Melnick: We will follow our process and we will review the proposals on the merit of their proposals. We have not identified specific locations, rather it will be the merit or the proposals that we will be looking at. Mrs. Rowat: In the report there is an indication that there will be a province-wide assessment on the development of a new emergency care system.

As my colleague the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) had indicated, transportation, com- munication costs or allocations throughout the department have been decreased. I am just wanting to know if the minister can indicate to me what process will be followed to do

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2533 the province-wide assessments, if there will be travel involved and if communities have been identified of where these assessment meetings will take place. Ms. Melnick: I will be getting an interim report from the implementation committee at the beginning of July. They will be putting together a plan, and I will review that plan. Certainly, I will be ensuring that we will be covering the geography of Manitoba and that the committee will have the resources that they will need to carry out this particular recom- mendation. Mrs.

Rowat: In the process of the assessments, in discussion with shelters and with different organizations–actually, the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) had indicated the issue about schooling and the need to make sure that the education component is still very strong within the whole system. I encourag e the minister and the working group to ensure that component is looked at fairly strongly.

Can the minister indicate what action, if any, has been taken to address the issues that were identified in the report regarding the standards and training qualifications of the sta ff and the competence to adequately meet the needs of the children in care? I felt that that was a very serious issue and I guess there were a number of serious issues identified and raised in the report. I think this has a great effect on the quality of care that children would be receiving.

I just want you to comment on that and actually the status of implementing these immediately, the standards and training qualifications and implementation of those needs. Ms. Melnick: On the question of standards, we have introduced protocols that are being used to guide workers and co-ordinators. We are also training co- ordinators to assess skills of workers and make sure best placements are made. All the workers will be receiving, within this fisc al year, competency-based training which will include non-violent crisis intervention. Those are four of the main areas that we are focussing on now. Mrs.

Rowat: Just for clarification, the time lines, I guess, are what I am looking at. Ms. Melnick: The protocols are in place now. The training of the co-ordinators is going on now and the competency-based training will occur for each worker within the system within this fiscal year. * (16:00) Mrs.

Rowat: In regard to training and taking care of the children in the centres, the issue of children being restrained, I just wanted to know what type of youth care competency training that is taking place at this point to ensure those children will not be put in the situation that they have been in the past, in being restrained. Ms. Melnick: Certainly we do have guidelines around the minimal use of force and those will be reviewed with each and every worker. These include very clear guidelines around the use of physical restraints when a child is acting out and may actually be a danger to themselves.

This we will be reviewing on an annual basis. There has been this training in the past. So we will make sure that we are now providing it on an annual basis. Mrs. Rowat: For the clarification, thank you. So the staff that are in place at this present time have received that training, and then it will be reinforced. Is that what you are saying? Annually? Okay. Just back to a point that I had forgotten to ask about, would the minister be able to table the committee members for the action committee and the background offered on each? Ms. Melnick: You are referring to the imple- mentation committee?

Sure, we could do that. We do not have it handy, but it would be something we could bring back. Did you want me to go through who the members are, at this time? That would be fine for you? Okay. Mrs. Rowat: Thank you. I just need some statistical information regarding centre s. The report indicates that there are 50 of them that are licensed. Is that still an accurate number? Madam Chairperson in the Chair Ms. Melnick: Are you referring to shelters when you say centres? There are currently 43 shelters and they are all licensed. Mrs. Rowat: There has been a reduction from 50.

Does that mean that 7 shelters have been closed?

2534 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 Ms. Melnick: At its height there were 64 shelters. We are now at 53. Over the years we have been closing, pardon me, 43, I stand corrected. We have been closing the smaller shelters and shelters that have been unsafe. We have been consolidating shelters. Also we have been working toward the development of alternate treatment facilities so that shelters may not be as heavily used, so that there are other facilities for children to be in. Mrs. Rowat: Could you indicate or clarify for me what you mean by alternate care facilities? Ms.

Melnick: We have been working with organi- zations such as Marymound, Mamawi, B & L to provide residential care. Mrs. Rowat: Reducing shelters from 64 to 43, does that mean there are less children within the system? If you can provide me with some statistical information regarding the numbers, that would help me get a better understanding. Ms. Melnick: In answer to your question, because of the development of the alternate treatment facilities, there are fewer children in the shelters. We do not have the listing for you right now but we could get that for you. Mrs.

Rowat: Are hotels still being used as emergency shelters? I know that was an issue and I just wanted to know if this government has addressed that and what the percentages are. Ms. Melnick: For the number of children in hotels right now, there would be an average of 14 on any given night. These are largely sibling groups, and that has certainly been the impetus around our development of the two shelters that I referred to previously, one currently opened and one opening in the fall, which will be reserved for sibling groups and there will be six beds per shelter, again to accommodate siblings. Mrs.

Rowat: Can the minister provide for me statistical numbers for the last fiscal year of how many children were put in care? I am sorry, in hotels? Ms. Melnick: I just want to clarify the question. Are you talking about children in care or are you talking about hotel stays? In hotels? Okay. We do not have the number handy, but we will be happy to bring that back to you. * (16:10) Mrs. Rowat: Could the minister indicate to me the number of children per week that are–oh, I am sorry, I guess the length of stay is my question. What is the average length of stay per child? Ms.

Melnick: Can I clarify, are you again referring to hotel, or the emergency shelter? Mrs. Rowat: No, this would be hotels that we are going to be focussing on. Ms. Melnick: Oh, we are focussing on–okay. Mrs. Rowat: So I need to know what the length of stay is. Ms. Melnick: Okay. We will have to come back with that too. Mrs. Rowat: Could the minister give me information on what the ages are of the children on the average and the number in each of the rooms? Ms. Melnick: We will come back with that information. Mrs. Rowat: The information is not available, statistical information? Ms.

Melnick: It is not that it is not available. We do not have it handy. So we will be coming back with that. Mrs. Rowat: Could the minister indicate to me which hotels are being used to care for the children? Ms. Melnick: Again, that will be part of the information that we will bring back. Mrs. Rowat: I am just asking for clarification. This information has been available at previous Estimates. I am just wanting to know if there is a reason why that information is not available. Ms. Melnick: We just simply do not have it handy, so we will make it available to you. Mrs. Rowat: Okay.

What action has the minister taken to eliminate or reduce the 24-hour shifts? That was an issue that was brought up by the Advocate

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2535 and indicating that it definitely had an effect on the quality of care that children were receiving and also continuity of care. Ms. Melnick: The new shelters that we are opening will not have 24-hour staff shifts. They will have the 8- to 10-hour shifts as recommended by the Advocate. Shelters that will be closed will be 24- hour-shift based staff. We have recently closed a shelter that had three staff who had the 24-hour shift timetabling. They were redeployed to shelters with 8- to 12-hour shifts.

Also, we agree with the Advocate's recom- mendation that management does have the right to design shifts that are for the benefit of the children. The Advocate was very clear on recommending that those are 8- to 10-hour shifts. So we will be working toward changing shifting fo r staff but also remain sensitive to how this change in shifting may affect staff. We are moving very delicately in this area and trying to keep the balance. Of course, our focus is on the quality of care, but we also are sensitive to employees and co-ordinators. So we will be moving forward in that way. Mrs.

Rowat: Can you indicate to me how many shelters currently still offer 24-hour shifts? Ms. Melnick: To answer your question, I think we really have to talk in terms of number of staff rather than number of shelters. There are between 22 and 26 staff who are currently working the 24-hour shifts. Mrs. Rowat: How many staff are working with these emergencies shelters? So I have an idea of how you have reduced the numbers. Ms. Melnick: Again, perhaps we could talk in terms of staffing complement. There are right now 191 staff: some are part time, some are full time, some are casual.

Of that 191 complement, again, we have the 22 to 26 staff members who still have the 24- hour shift, so it looks like roughly one eighth. Mrs. Rowat: Can the minister give me her comment on the statement that was made in the report that there is limited information about children appre- hended into emergency care and how she has her department addressing that statement? * (16:20) Ms. Melnick: Close to a year ago, we brought in a new information system. The short term is STEP, and the longer term is short-term temporary emergency placement desk.

What this information system does is allow for a much improved tracking system for the children and it would contain information such as where the children were before they presented the emergency shelter, how long they were in their previous placement, the number of times they have been in and out of the system, and past discharges, et cetera. Mrs. Rowat: The statistical information that you have shared, is that available to review? Ms. Melnick: Certainly on an individual case basis, we could not be sharing that information.

We are still very much working with the system and working out the kinks, so it would probably be a year or two before any reliable information, any reliable patterns, might present from that. Mrs. Rowat: Thank you. That is probably a question I could explore next year in more detail and get a sense. I guess that reporting and documentation issues were inconsistent. I am assuming that this program will help address those issues. Ms. Melnick: That certainly is our hope. Mrs.

Rowat: The on-site supervision and super- vision in general which was also indicated as an issue and the lack of support that staff felt that they were getting from their supervisors, can the minister address how that is being taken care of? Ms. Melnick: Previously, when you had asked the question about standards, I had referred to protocols which establish guidelines for co-ordinators relation- ship with staff, so that would be one area that we would use to see improvement in.

Certainly, the smaller number of shelters will lead to more contact between co-ordinators and staff and the training which I had also previously outlined. Mrs. Rowat: In the report, in talking to the Children's Advocate, she had indicated that foster care locations as well placements were a major concern, an issue. I just wanted to know if the minister would just speak briefly to that issue. Ms. Melnick: You are talking about the physical locations of shelters?

2536 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 20, 2004 Mrs. Rowat: In discussion there was an indication that there is an obvious shortage of foster care placement available, culturally appropriate foster care availability. I just wanted to know if the minister could indicate what action is being taken to address that and, actually, timelines of imple- mentation of dealing with that. Ms. Melnick: Certainly, we are, if I could refer back a few moments to our RFP to be going out for foster placements for children in emergency care, one of the criteria that we would develop would be culturally appropriate placements.

Geography will be taken into consideration. So those would be part of the criteria that would be developed through which every request for proposal would be screened. Mrs. Rowat: I want to thank the minister for the responses quickly on that and I look forward to possibly doing a briefing on some of the other points. Just based on time, I do not want to run out and so I appreciate her comments and the information shared. I look forward to the information on hotel usage and hoping that I can get the stats and the information to help me with my research.

Quickly, on day cares, I know that the minister and the government have an interest in that area. But I also, as a former board member and user of the service, have a keen interest in the day care area. I wanted to know if the minister would provide for me the number of exemptions that have been allowed for day cares that are licensed this past year. * (16:30) Ms. Melnick: We believe it is 221, but we will confirm that for you. Mrs. Rowat: Can you also provide for me the number of denials for staff exemptions? Ms. Melnick: Yes, certainly, we will bring that back. Mrs.

Rowat: Can the minister provide for me the number of facilities which received grants this past fiscal year? Ms. Melnick: Are you referring to the number of centres that received grants? Okay. The number for 2002-2003 was 552. It is approximately that now, but we will get the specific number for you. Mrs. Rowat: Some more statistical information, the number of licensed child care spaces that are available this year and how many were last year. Ms. Melnick: Are you asking total spaces or funded spaces? An Honourable Member: Can I get both please? Ms. Melnick: Sure.

Okay, for 2004-2005, the total number of funded spaces are 17 509 and total licensed spaces 26 219. Mrs. Rowat: I believe when we started the process the Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) interrupted the process of me receiving information that was tabled, so I thought maybe we would just complete that if we could. Ms. Melnick: I wanted to table the information requested by, I believe it was the Member for Pembina, a few days ago.

The following information regarding housing units owned by the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and managed by the Manitoba Housing Authority in the communities of Piney, Vassar, Sprague, Middlebro and Woodridge. The second is in 1995, the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corp accepted the voluntary transfer of a housing unit in Sprague on which it held the mortgage from the mortgagee and proceeded to manage the housing unit as a rental property.

In 2003, as this unit had not been rented for a lengthy period of time and the cost to bring the unit up to an acceptable standard of occupancy was excessive, the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation placed the housing unit on the market for sale on an as-is condition. The unit was sold in 2003. I think actually the information requested is in the space above, so I will table this. I would also like to table in response to a request, I am sorry I cannot remember–oh, I think it was you who requested the–[interjection] No.

Because different people appeared or disappeared, I keep trying to remember who asked what. So it was you. Okay. Grants to extern al agencies for the '04-05 fiscal year. Next, I believe, the Member for Minnedosa (Mrs. Rowat), requesting information on the terms of reference for the working group on housing for

May 20, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2537 individuals with a disability. You had also, I believe, requested the questionnaire that was provided throughout the province for the working group on housing for individuals with a disability and you had also requested a

summary of the results of the questionnaire which was sent throughout the province by the working group on housing for individuals with a disability. These are three separate documents that I will table. In response to anothe r question, I believe from the Member for Minnedosa, additional information from the division of Services for Persons with Disabilities. The program is Adult and Children's Programs. The issue was adults receiving respite services. The response is that these services were provided through the Supported Living Program.

The Supported Living Program provides respite funding to families to give them a break from the care-giving given to an adult family member. Respite services can be provided to the program participant in the family home, out of home for community activities or out of home for overnight care. Services can be provided through an agency, departmental respite workers or fundin

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-2-42b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 2nd hansardpdf 42b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0b6d2bbc98df616f57e9e05d2b763735a500f680

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