Manitoba Hansard — 28 May 1979 (Sitting 69B, 31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-69b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 28, 1979 ., Time: 8:00 p.m. -- .. • .. . . - SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Albert Driedger (Emerson): Committee come to order. I'd like to refer members of the committee to Resolution No. 59, Item 3.(b)(2)-pass - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, we were discussing this innovative and unusua l purchase of tires for the Minister of Fitness' car before you arrived . I just wanted to ask a couple of more questions on that particular point.

Again, it struck me as a violation of the tendering proceys, and although it may have been well-intentioned, it was certainly out of order in my judgment, and I think the Minister generally agrees that it wasn't a desirable method of operation. I wanted to ask him, though, if he can indicate the procedure that was adopted in that a new car was ordered, and then a substitution was made of the tires on that car . And I wondered whether Mr. Banman approached the Minister to make that change, or whether he dealt with the central provincial garage.

And if it was that route, whether the people at the garage then checked with the Minister to ascertain whether the purchase would be in order, or would be agreeable to the Minister. · MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I think prior to supper-hour adjournment, I tried to deal with the matter in a reasonable way. I can understand the oppos ition members' concern here.

They honestly believe that, having discovered the fact that a colleague of mine insisted on a pair of special whitewall tires , that somehow or other they would be able to demonstrate a departure from the restraint program. The truth of the matter is that he got those tires for considerable dollars less than the provincial garage was prepared to provide them for. I have also indicated to the honourable members of the committee that it's not a particular purchasing policy that I would choose to endorse .

I've indicated that to the Minister, who is now present, and who I would welcome to add any clarification to the great tire debate in the Government Services, in that department. But I don 't think I can make any further statements about it. The tires were purchased through the Central Purchasing Bureau , through the central garage, from the supplier that we are currently on tender with, Uniroyal , except that the Minister asked for a less costly tire , a less expensive tire. It happened to be a tire of his choosing . I can't say much more other than that. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman , my question to the Minister was, how did this procedure evolve? Did the Minister of Fitness ask you for permission to make this substitution? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I have had trouble with the Minister of Sports and Fitness. It is a question of, I suppose , religious and ethnic background - we don't speak to each other. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, maybe somebody in the department could advise the Minister as to the method of purchase again , because we're talking I think here about a principle , and it wasn't myself who raised the matter .

I think the Min ister of Fitness took great relish in announcing that he had saved money by this purchase . Now, you know, on first hand that sounded terrific , the problem being that could anybody who had a deal or who had a connection or who had access to some material that would be purchased by the government, can they operate in a simil ar fashion? Can they contact the Minister , or can they phone the department and sell them a special? I assume in most cases that the government buys on the basis of a process. There are well established rules for purchasing; anybody in the 4713

Monday, May 28, 1979 same business might be able to compete. Maybe the Minister got a deal , maybe he didn't; maybe he bought an inferior product for the right price . Maybe somebody else could have given him an even better deal on it; maybe the government bought too expensive tires in the first place; maybe they didn't. But I'm just saying that it is an anomaly , and you know we had some concern as to the way the whole thing was handled .

It is not so much that it's a small amount of money as the fact that I find it peculiar that some Minister can say I want this particular thing and it 's just purchased as such, particularly if he says, " I know where you can get a deal on this ," because that strikes me as being a very dangerous precedent, if Minister 's are going to be phoning up and saying I know where we can buy a truck load of this or a carload of that. I don 't think people who are in business would be too happy with that as a regular procedure .

They want to know what the ground rules are so that they can participate , and I intend to raise a matter more serious in the tender ing processes for security when we get to the Minister 's Salary , where the ground rules seem to be very vague and very flexible. So I'm simply saying to the Minister again, maybe the Minister of Fitness would care to answer as to what method of operation , what procedure he followed in making this substitution?

Did he, for example, phone the Minister and say, " Can I do this ?" Did he phone the garage and say, " I want this ." If he phoned the garage , did the garage people then phone the Minister of Government Services and say, " Is this okay? " Because somebody approved this , and I want to know who approved it. MR. ENNS : Well , Mr. Chairman , I'm not going to continue this debate much longer. I know of a former Minister of Public Works who used to spend a considerable amount of time wandering through the art shops of this city and deciding in an arb itrary way which

part icular painting or which object of art struck his fancy . I have a cup of some unknown description that I have yet to be able to find a suitable invoice for that was purchased by ministerial direction . You know , I'm not doing this or suggesting this to throw red herrings; I'm saying that in this particular instance the Min ister involved in effect , if you want to put the bottom line to it, saved the tax-paying publ ic some moneys by opting for a particular choice of tires that he wanted . It was within the purchasing policy of the department.

The bulk purchasing contract is with Uniroyal; he purchased a less expens ive set of Uniroyal tires. I invite the Minister of Sport and Fitness to add any personal comments that he may on the subject matter and I don 't say this by way of attempting to come out from under this heavy attack on my ministry right now but I was not the Minister at the time that the questionable purchase was made, and so the direct answer to my honourable friend for Elmwood : " No, the Minister did not inquire of me as to whether or not he could purchase these tires . I wasn 't the Minister of Government Services at the time. " MR.

CHAIRMAN: (b)(2) - the Honourable Minister of Fitness . MR. BANMAN: Well , Mr . Chairman , I think this is a class ic case of some civil servant 's nose being out of joint , when you 've got a problem when you 're going to save the taxpayers some money because the previous administration , or maybe the previous adm inistration before that was putting on a much higher grade of tires on the car than was , I feel , necess ary at this particular instance. And here is an example of where the taxpayer is paying less money , but the government is being ridiculed by the opposition for taking that particular approach .

As the Minister has mentioned , the department has the contract with the Uniroyal people , it was bought through that particular purchasing system, and those are the tires on the car right now at , I must say, a saving to the people . So, Mr.

Chairman , I don 't know how the previous administra tion worked it , I understand, my particular car, when the Member for Brandon East wanted to instal a mirror and a light so that his wife could powder her nose on the sun visor on the right hand side , I don't know if he phoned up the Member for Elmwood and asked him if he could do that ; I don 't know , or did he just phone the Provinc ial Garage and say: " Hey, I think that's a good thing . We should have it; put it in" or if he said : " Hey, you know , I think we should have air conditioning ," and it costs about $300 or $400 to put it in. I don 't know .

Did he phone up the Member for Elmwood and ask him if he could put in the air conditioning? Maybe they did that but it's such a small item that , you know, Mr. Chairman , we're spending a lot of time on one particular item which saved the province some money and bought tires from people that already were supply ing us with the contractural commitments . And somebody somewhere along the line has said that minister 's cars should have Michelin Tires or Bridges tones . And that is the word and that's it. Well , Mr. Chairman , those are more expensive tires and these tires are less money.

And if I can save the taxpayers $150 or $200 on a set of tires, Mr. Chairman , I think it's my duty to do so. 4714 .. •• !!!. ' '! • .. _

·t-. ..... .. .. ... • .... Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(2)-pass - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Well , you know , Mr. Chairman, it's all very interesting but the Minist er still doesn't answer the question and neither does the Minister of Fitness. If the Min ister of Fitness is going to go around and inspect the car fleet and he's going to look at all the batter ies and make recommendations on cheaper batteries , and if he's going to go and look at all the parts on all the cars , then perhaps he should app ly for the position of Ministe r of Government Services.

When you start tinkering and you want to start making substitutions, then I think you open up a whole can of worms. And my understand ing was that the Minister chose these original tires on aesthetic preference , that he wanted a wider whitewall, and that this was his aesthetic preference, and that that was the main reason for his preference , etc .

So , I'm simply saying , if there are procedures that are established, I think there are good grounds for them , and when individual ministers start making substitutions and then trumpeting about how they saved the taxpayers money , I don't think that point has been proved . What has been demonstrated , which we all knew before , is that you can buy tires at 25 bucks a shot , I suppose , and you can buy them for over $100.00. And the fact that you buy a cheaper tire doesn't mean you 're saving money.

It may mean that what you 're doing is buying a cheaper tire , and it won 't last as long, and it won't give as good sevice . We all know that car parts - there are expensive parts , there are cheap parts. There are different types of vehicles . You can buy a car for $15,000, and you can buy on~ for $5,000 new. So, you know, I'm simply saying that I'm not impressed with the fact that the Minister made this subs tit ution. And if he wants to do that , then he can , you know, he can make that kind of a recommendation to the Minister on cars .

He can go around and tell the Minister of Government Services what type of batteries to buy and why, and he can make recommendations on tires, and any other parts of vehicles , if he wants. He can do that. But , once he does that , Mr. Chairman , then you have to give people the right to bid on those particular products . You can 't make isolated purchases . You must then give people in the industry an opportunity to tender on those specs.

So if the Minister of Fitness wants to set the standards in the Department of Government Serv ices, he's free to do so, but he shouldn't be doing it on a one-shot basis, or on an occasional basis . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. MR. BANMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say that nobody is trumpeting this. There was no news release that the Minister of Fitness had saved the government a bunch of money. The matter was raised in the Legislatu re by the Member for St. Vital. And I jush replied to questions that he asked me, that's all. That's all that happened.

There isn't all kinds of trumpeting and press releases that have come out on this. This is an issue that has been raised by the opposition, not by the government. And to try and sort of say that we're not allowing tendering in this particular instance, I think the Minister has pointed out very clearly that Uniroyal are the people that we are buying tires from at the present time . Those are the people that were the low tenderers, the low bidders, when the government accepted the different tires that they purchase .

And as the member knows, there are 13 inch tires, there are 14 inch tires, there are 15 inch tires, and there 's even big truck tires. So, you don 't go out every time and say, "N ow we're buying two 13 inch tires, and we let tenders out for those things ." And the member should know that. But, Mr. Chairman, let me just say, you know, a classic example - I think the government can save money . I will make recommendations, and I will do everything within my power to save the taxpayers some money. And you know, Mr.

Chairman, a classic example of that, and I was here when those electric cars were out in the front there , and they went around there. And the manufacturers were out here , and the Minister was out there, the then First Minister was driving the cars . And I went over to the guy - and I've been in the car business a long time, I grew up with cars, Mr. Chairman, so I know something about them . I know something about tires, I know something about oil , and I know something about gas. And I went out to this fellow , and I said, "How are you going to heat this car in the winter?

" ' " Well" , he says, "we've got an electric heater in there ." " Well ", I said, "H ow does the electric heater work?" "Well, it runs off the batteries." "Well, 1 say, " doesn't ' the motor run off the batteries? " "Yes." I say, "What kind of efficiency are you going to get on those things?" " Oh, tremendous ," he said, "tremendous ." " Well," I said, " how about the the wheels?" I said, "Everything is much stiffer in the wintertime, you're going to lose a lot of efficiency. " " Oh, no," he said, .'we got got this new kind of grease that will really turn - the 4715

Monday, May 28, 1979 wheels turn really (Interjection)- Well , Mr. Speaker , you .. . " - know, having been in the business and having the practical experience , there is no magic grease. The wheels turn harder in the wintertime than they do in the summer. It's a fact of life and you can use whatever graphite, grease or slippery grease you want to use. That's a fact of life. !!!: Mr. Speaker, I walked away there and if I had been a part of the government , I would have screamed long and hard before we paid $8,000 for cars, which I knew , Mr.

Speaker , having been involved in the industry, would be an absolute waste of taxpayers' money. Because until we come out with some kind of energizing pack or something , the old lead batteries with the sulphur, just won't work. So, Mr.

Speaker , were I in any department of government, whether it be Public Works , • whether it be any other things , that I know from the fact , we can save the taxpayers ' money, I will endeavour to do that and I don 't care if it means that some of the civil servants will get their ,. nose out of joint , because that's what has happened here , and he went running to the Member for St. Vital.

I was member of the opposition long enough to know how he got his information . '!" So that's what happened here but I can tell the member , I'm not backing away from that and wherever we can save the taxpayer some money , I will endeavour to save it, even if this is the type of tack the opposition wants to bring forward . MR. CHAIRMAN: (bX2) - the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Well, you know , Mr.

Chairman , we're asking questions , we're getting speeches, but we're not getting answers to the questions that we're asking and if you want to debate electric cars , we'll get Bob Wilson in here and we'll have a debate on electric cars . But that isn't the question that we're dealing with . We're simply saying that there is an unhealthy precedent in a Minister giving direction about substitutions . -(Interjection)- Yes, saving the taxpayeis ' money, trumpetin g the saving of taxpayers ' money -(Interjection)- I have the floor .

And the point is, you can adopt new procedures if you like , but you will also have to then decide whether every Tom , Dick and Harry can go running up to the Minister or the government , saying , " Here , I've got a deal , would you like to hear my deal? I've got so many chickens or so many batteries or so many fence posts at a special." And you can save money that way as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . The Honourable Minister on a point of order . MR. ENNS: I don 't mind the honourable member casting aspersions , certain motives to Tom and Dick , but leave Harry out of it, eh? MR.

CHAIAN: The Honourable Minister does not have a point of order. The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr . Chairman , the Minister has never had a point of order . He's been in the Legislature 13 years . He has never yet had a point of order. le • I wanted to ask him if he can give us a breakdown again of Other Expenditures going from 4.6 to 5.8 mill ion. How much of that money is being spent on new cars and how many new cars : are being purchased? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: This appropriation provides funds for replacement program for 1979-80, of some $1.5 million .

It also provides for an allowance for price increase for gasoline , repair parts and costs of labour to the tune of $232 ,000 . That 's part of it. I think we are talking about some 187 cars , I "!' believe . Some 189 vehicles , for a total expenditure of $1 ,195,640.00. I'm advised , Mr. Chairman , that the rest are the operating costs invol ved with the general fee, but in terms of capital acquisition, it covers some 189 vehicles , replacement vehicles , for a cost of $1 .195 million . MR. DOERN: Can the Minister indicate at what mileage cars are now being traded? Is it 80,000 or higher? e MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I'm advised that that's part of the area of concern right now. I'm anticipating that the Deputy Minister is going to address himself to on a priority basis . We have ~ ... an aging fleet. For instance , just by way of some figures, we have some 24 sedans that are over 100,000 ; we have 21 trucks in the same category ; we have some 50 trucks and vans that are between 90,000 and 100,000 miles , some 72 sedans ; we have some 82 trucks and vans between 80,000 4716

• Monday, May 28, 1979 and 90,000 miles; some 115 sedans in the 70,000 to 80,000 range; 120 truc ks and vans, 185 sedans in the 60,000 to 70,000 mile range ; 117 trucks and vans and 228 sedans in the 50,000 to 60,000 range ; 103 trucks and vans and 226 sedans . Mr. Chairman, the figures speak for themselves , we have an aging fleet. MR. DOERN: That's my point, Mr. Chairman, the Minister sums it up by saying, " we have an aging fleet," and that is because the mileages are being allowed to pile up and the day of reckoning is being postponed.

So I'm simply saying that it's all very good in the short run but.. sooner or later you're going to have to start spending a great deal of money on fixing those cars or they're going to be write-offs, will have no value in trade-ins and so on and so on. What I'm asking the Minister is if he could indicate the policy, or is there no policy, because I recall, I believe, that we used to trade at 60,000, and then, supposedly to save money, I think that figure was raised to about 80,000. Now, I'm not sure whether I'm recalling the figures correctly, but I know that we were getting into those regions.

Can the minister just indicate what a guideline is for trades, or is there no guideline at the moment? MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable minister . MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the last policy as set by the previous administration was at a level of some 80,000 miles , and that was an extension from what had been. I think generally he traded between 50,000 and 60,000 miles.

You know, I can't help but ~gree with the honourable ·v member to some extent, that the wise economic decision to be made - there should be a relationship between when cars can be traded in for maximum value from the fleet and replaced - that policy has obviously suffered somewhat in this process of where the whole question of the government fleet policy is being debated. ,. • MR. DOERN: Well, I'll ask a third time, Mr. Chairman, can the minister indicate what his policy is in terms of trades? Does he have a figure of 80,000 or 85,000 or 90,000 or 95,000 or 100,000? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, you know, I'm not prepared to prejudge a policy decision that has to be made in this regard.

I think it will be a prudent course to follow, that if it's judged - and I hope that judgment will be made relatively soon , certainly in terms of time to facilitate departments in their preliminary discussions for, would you believe but up-and-coming Estimates for the coming year - that a firm and clear holicy decision is made with respect to the size of the fleet, and then that we would expect our administrators to advise us the most prudent course to follow, which I would suspect would be a combination of the model years and miles, that they both have a relationship to when you're talking trade-ins.

I would think that coming back to a figure closer to the 60,000 miles, for instance, would probably be a more realistic figure to deal with in terms of maximizing the return on used government cars . MR. CHAIRMAN: (bX2)-pass; (b)-pass; (cX1)-pass; (c)(2)- pass; (c)-pass; (dX1)-pass- the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, one general question here on purchasing is: Does the government have any policy or intention in regard to encouraging Manitoba firms through the use of purchasing? In other words, are we giving a Manitoba preference?

Does the minister intend to use the Purchasing Bureau in a manner in which Manitoba industry can be encouraged, or is there no policy in that regard? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, aside from those particular areas, where we show preference to specific groups and organizations , particularly those that supply some services by handicapped organizations, unskilled workers of Manitoba, you know, groups where we show preferences in a very definite way , the government of the day is not showing preferential treatment to the Manitoba manufacturers . I should add, Mr.

Chairman, that this is a question that is causing us a considerable amount of concern at this time. We can't avoid the fact that, in my judgment increasing number of sister jurisdictions and provinces are indeed writing in very specific preferential treatment to their manufacturers.

It's a matter that Cabinet and government will have to deal with, but aside from those areas that I mentioned, where we are purchasing certain services from very special groups - groups that are supplying some goods or services by different agencies, particularly handicapped people that are providing some goods or services - in those instances we are continuing the same policy of the previous administration, and indeed the policy that has been in effect for several decades 4717

Monday, May 28, 1979 in this province, but we are not extending that preferential to general purchasing in the province . MR. CHAIRMAN: (dX1) - the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: So that if there was a bid by a Manitoba manufacturer for, say, $1 million on a product, and there is a bid by an out-of-province firm that was three cents lower, you would award it to the lowest bidder? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, without specific direction from Cabinet or without a specific policy stated , I, personally as the minister responsible , exercise an option that , in my interpr etation of the Manitoba Purchasing Act , makes it possible for me to exercise , that is, when I deem tenders to be equal , I will show preference to a Man itob a manufacturer in all cases . I go one step further , and it's a self-imposed regulation , th at that deeming of tenders to be equal have to fall within the 1 percent range. MR. CHAIRMAN: (dX1)-pass; (dX2)-pa ss - the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman , are the Other Expenditures under this item money that is spent on purchased items , or is this only the Other Expenditures that usually go along with Salaries? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I'm advised here in my notes that provide this information that these increases provide for data processing costs relative to the Purchasing Bureau Informati on System , for which adequate provision was not made in the 1978/ 79 Budget. It's a total of some $28,300 .00. ~ MR.

WALDING: I'd like to ask the minister when office equipment and furniture, etc. is purchased , does it come out of Resolution 61 , Acquisition of Physical Assets? ~ MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I'm advised by staff that the bulk of that would come under Resolution 58, 2.(cX4), and as well some out of Acquisition of Physica l Assets. MR. WALDING: Then , would the minister consider that office machines would be a capital matter rather than a current item? MR. ENNS: I am advised, Mr. Chairman , that those kind of expenditures come under the appropriation that we just passed (

c) Office Equipmen t Branch , of which there is some $230,000 for Salaries and $507 ,900 Othe r Expenditures , which is being increa sed to $619,000 this year . MR. WALDING: So is the Minister now telling me that the purchase of office machines would come out of Current , under this item? MR. ENNS: Yes. All out of Current, all current. MR. WALDING: But the Minister told us when we were at 2.(cX4) Furniture and Furnishings that the large drop in there was accounted for by Expenditures , Capital Expenditures , which were under Resolution 61. MR. ENNS: 2.(c)(4)? Mr. Chairman , my staff advise me that under 2.(cX4) that provides for alterations and renovations to offices

whereas the actual acquisit ion of furnishings or something like that is probably found under Resolution 61 . Any replacement of existing furniture, updating or something like that , comes out of the current supply under 3.(cX2) and the acquisition of additional or opening up a new office , opening up a new building and supplying it with new furnishings , that that comes under Resolution 61 : Acquisition and Construction of Physical Assets. MR. WALDING: So if for example the government were to buy a new typewriter for a new building , that would come out of Resolution 61 , I understand it. MR.

ENNS: If it was a new acquisition . MR. WALDING: And it would be considered a Capital item , I assume from what the Minister tells me. 4718 -·- .. ~ .

• ·,-)- • Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairm an, the question of Capital and Current, you kno w, is somet hing of the past in this regard, and I don' t

part icularly know what the member is attempting to divin e here . MR. CHAIRMAN: (d)(2) - the Membe r for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Further to th at last point, most businesses and corporations would consider that anything that was to be consumed or used within the depa rt ment in that particula r year, such as paper, pencils , paperclips and things would be considered a current item but things that were to be used over ten years - and I believe that's the figure the Annual Report mentions as a reasonable time for office machinery - would be considered a capital matter .

If that is the case, I wonder if this Minister would share the surpr ise that was evinced by his colleague, the Minister of Finance, in finding Gestetner machines listed by the previous government under Capital. MR. ENNS: I am advised, Mr. Chairman, that we have no more Capital. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, then can the Minister explain, if he says there are no more Capital purchases, can he explain Item 61? Is that going to be for items that are going to be consumed and used in that one year alone, or they will be items for l,ong-te rm duration? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, it 's not a question of their duration ; the question is that this is one-year money . I may not have it next year . It all lapses at the end of the year. MR. URUSKI: Well, Mr. Chairman , can the Minister explain any of the authority that is granted to a government in terms of each legislative session , in terms of the 200-and-1-think-$5 million that is being requested under the word s Capital by his very administration that is broken down this year? MR. CHAIRMAN: (d)(2)-pass - the Memb er for Elmwood . MR.

DOERN: Well, you know, we're playing with words here and it's like when the Minister says he has a point of order he really means he wants to make a speech . Is he telling us here that · • under 61 when we talk about the Acquisition and Construction of Physical Assets that that isn't Capital? Is he telling us that 's something else? ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourab le Minister . MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman, with all due respect , I would ask perhaps if we could proceed in an orderly way with the consideration of the Estimates. When we arrive at 61 , I perhaps may have the answer for him . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member fmr St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , in respect to· the Purchasing Bureau, the Minister indicated that equipment that was new equipment would be purchased under Item 61. Would equipment that is being replaced be part of the Other Expenditures in 3.(c)(2) and 2.(c)(4), in terms of furniture and equipment? MR. ENNS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that's my understanding that that is the procedure that is being followed. MR. URUSKI: Is there a clear delineation in the Departmental Expenditures with respect to furnishings vis-a-vis equipeent purchases, in terms of the Equipment Branch?

Are all the funds utilized specifically for - and maybe the Minister can elaborate - what types of equipment are those funds used for and how are they broken out as furnishings, furniture and not as equipment? #... MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman, I am advised that office equipment - that is typewriter machines and other calculators or what have you that go to make up a modern office operation - that they are dist inct and separate from the furnishings that go into that same office, and they would be 4719

Monday, May 28, 1979 covered under appropriation 3.(cX2), that $619,000 tha t is allocated there as distinct from Resolution 2.(cX4), where you see Furniture and Furnishings . MR. CHAIRMAN: (dX2)-pass; (d)-pass; (eX1)-pass; (eX2)-pass ; (e)-pass; (fX1)-pass; !: (fX2)-pass ; ( f)-pass; (gX1)-pass; (gX2)-pa ss; (gX3)-pass; (g)-pass: (h)-pass; Resolution - the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: I'd like to ask the Minister why this Item (3Xh), Recoverable from other Appropriations , is down from last year. 8MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I'm advised that the decrease is due to a decrease in the size of fleet ~ staff , less recovery from other departments as a result of that , for a total of some $551 ,600 .00. That accounts for the decrease. Less mileage on the fleet. And there were , as we determined earlier ': when we were discussing the fleet, there was in effect an actual reduction of some hundred-plus vehicles of the fleet , and by the way, cheaper tires . MR. WALDING: Is the Minister wishing to open that discussion again? MR. ENNS: But I would invite that discussion to be opened up on my salary. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (h) - the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING : Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister if there is any change in the rate of recovery from other appropriations , other departments? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I can have the details of that at a later date , but I'm told that there has been a slight increase in the charge for office rentals , or office equipment, but there's been - any change in mileage? Yes, also an increase from 12 to 15 cents - a difference from 12, which was the charge to departments , has been increased to 15 cents . That accounts for some of the changes in the department. MR.

CHAIAN : (h)-pass ; Resolution 59: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,897,700 for Government Services . -pass; Resolut ion 60, Item 4.(a)-pass - the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , this is the Giml i Industrial Park , and I wonder if the Minister could give us a general picture of what is happening there. It wasn 't too many years ago that the Armed Services pulled out , and that some very considerable efforts were made by our government to keep that base going . There were quite a few companies brought in.

There are a whole variety of different / operations in the Park . Several hundred people were working there . The CNR has invested a considerable amount of money in developing a training centre for engineers from across Canada , and I was just wondering if the Minister could indicate what has been happening in the past 18 :s months in terms of businesses pulling out , or businesses going in - if he can give us some current information . MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman , the fact of the matter is that quite a bit is going on at Gimli Industrial Park .

You know , I don 't have to repeat the history to the honourable members , who are only too well aware that , following the closure in 1971 of tha t base , and leaving aside the one particular controversial industry that was established at that site by the previous administration , I would be happy to read into the record the listing and the number of employees that are currently operating out of that Industrial Park if that is the wish of the Committee .

I can give you it in approximate terms that we have some 300 people , personnel, with an annual payroll of some $4 million, operating out of Gimli Industrial Park . If the honourable members wish to be more specific , I would be in my usua l style only too happy to accommodate them. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I asked the Minister whether he could indicate any new businesses in the past 18 months , and any closures in the past 18 months. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I'm not in a position to indicate any significant new developments there , although there are some hopefully on the horizon .

The question is perh aps more appropriately directed to the Minister of Economic Development , but there is that ongoing activity that I indicated involving some 300 people with , some 30 odd individual enterprises operatin g out of Gimli Industr ial 4720

Monday, May 28, 1979 Park, MR. DOERN: How does that compare to a year or a year and a half ago? • MR. ENNS: I'm advised by staff , Mr. Chairman , substantially the same. r> MR. DOERN: So ther e's been no improvemen t, and no deter ioration. - • MR. ENNS: That's correct , Mr. Chai rman . MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)-pass ; 4.(b)-pass - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: There's been a significan t reduction there from 758,000 to 70,000 . Can the Minister explain this? Is this a deferral of maintenance, or why is there this reduction? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , This decrease is as a result of some non-recurring costs relative to the termination of Barnes Security Services for some $37 ,000, certain buildings , 3, 4, 7, 10, 22 and 31 will be vacated , and thus saving on some operating costs for a further $29,000, termination of contract for operation of golf course for $8,000 , the Aspen Park Housing Units Insulation Program in vacant units not requir ing utilities expenditures.

We were apparently paying for utilities in vacant units which we didn't think we had to, for a further decrease of $21,000; . miscellaneous decreases , cease of use of walk-off mats , the removal of a switchboard, which wasn't being utilized, for a further $6,000 .00. MR. DOERN: What are walk-off mats? Those mats that walk away on their own legs, or? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order . The Honourab le Minister . MR. ENNS: I'm advised they're the ones that are at the door as you walk in. People aren't walking into vacant buildings; we don't need the walk mats any more. Anyway that totals to a grand tota l of $139 ,000 .00.

We have some allowance for increases relative to uti lities and building materials for $51,000 , the net reduction being $88,000 , which accounts to the penny the appropriation under quest ion, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: (4)(b)-pass . Resolution No. 60. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,623,700 for Government Services - pass. Item 5 - there is no money expropriation needed here or voted on. I'm at the guidance of the Comm ittee if you want some questions on the area. The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Well I think there 's a place for some questions here, Mr. Chairman. On 5.(

a) MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Would the membe rs prefer that we go through it item by item? 5.(a)(1)-pass. The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Could the Minister explain under Land Acquisition whether the land for the provincial court building near the City Hall has now all been acquired? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I'm advised that there is still some outstanding paper work to be done on several properties. MR. DOERN: Is the government proceeding to expropriate and acquire all the properties on the site? MR. ENNS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we are. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)(1) - The Member for St . Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I have a few questions . I'm not sure whether it comes under (

a) or (b). Perhaps I could ask the Minister ' whether the Land Acquisition Branch has had any dealings with the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation over the year? 4721

Monda y, May 28, 1979 MR. ENNS: I'm advised, Mr. Chairman, by senior staff that there does exist a friendly relationship between the two . MR. WALDING: I'd like to ask the Minister whether either the Land Acquisition Branch or the Land Value Appraisal Commission was consulted by the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation regarding the value of some farm land that it has sold over the last while? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman. The Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation has its own staff people with respect to appraisals that they do on land acquired by that corporation or within their control. ...; MR.

WALDING: I would like to ask the Minister then whether either the Branch or the Commission ,. has done any work either in acquiring or selling land or appra ising land for the MACC? MR. ENNS: I'm sorry , Mr. Chairman, I was momentarily diverted . MR. WALDING: I wanted to know from the Minister whether either the Branch or the Commission has done any work for or with the MACC in either acquiring, appraising or disposing of land? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , my advice from staff is no, that the Land Acquisition Branch under consideration here is not involved in the appraisals and or approvals of prices set by the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , my question also included the Land Value Appraisal Commission , is that also included in the Minister's answer. MR. ENNS: I'm so advised, Mr. Chairman, that it is included , yes. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , do these two bodies work only for and with departments of government or also with other agencies such as Crown corporations or municipalities? MR. ENNS: Well , Mr.

Chairman , it's been my hope for some 14 years now or close to that , 12 years ago I can recall bringing in or attempting to bring in an amendment to the Land Acquisition Act to have Land Acquisition be the purchasing agency for all lands requir ed for government purposes inclusive of Crown agencies , and in the same way to have the Land Value Appraisal Commission , which in effect puts a certificate of approval of the acquisition and the price that the public, the Crown is offering for that land , that that should indeed cover acquisition of Manitoba Hydro , Manitoba Telephones - although Manitoba Telephones doesn 't acquire that much land, they generally just require easements, right of way.

But I happen to believe that the public doesn't differentiate between whether highways or water control requires land for public use and that as such it would be prudent policy to have a single government agency acquire land for government and public purposes , whether it be for direct line use - by that I mean departments like Highways or Education or Water Control for drainage purposes .

I tend to believe that that same principle ought to apply whether Housing Authority is requiring land for development of housing ; whether Manitoba Hydro requires land for the purpose of right of way or construction of pwwer lines, but that is not the case today . There is for consideration again at my initiation a request to make it all inclusive.

Whether or not that will see the light of day during the course of this session is open to question at this point but it's a direction that I myself see as desireable in moving towards and I would include in that instance the Land Operations , the Land Acquisition , and the land dispersal of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation in the same light. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , ... MR.

ENNS: I just want to underline that is not the situation today nor has it been that in, not only the last 8 years but in the last decades, agencies , Crown agencies such as Manitoba Hydro purchase their land and appraise it entirely within Manitoba Hydro . Other agencies are doing it as well as is the Manitoba Agricultura l Credit Corporation . MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I'd like to ask the Minister , with respect to Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporat ion, do they do their own land acquisition and appraisals in-house 4722 I' -_. ~-

' " Monday, May 28, 1979 or are either of these two bodies involved? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation does use the expertis e and the facilities of the Land Acquisition Branch under discussion here and also the Land Value Appraisal Commission. It simply points out what I just said a little while ago , is that there appears to be an inconsistency re in terms of different government agencies' approach to land buying, land appraising, or land dispersal, and I believe that's not in the best public interest. I would like to see that brought under one umbre lla. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman , the Minister reporting for MHRC gave a particular example in his speech to the House about some land that was, I believe he said expropriated for a certain large sum of money by his department , perhaps prior to his taking over , that was not used and I believe he said was either worth a sum , perhaps a quarter or a fifth of the original amount or it was sold for that very low amount . I wonder if the Minister would care to give us the other side of the story as the Acquisition Branch or the Appra isal Commission's involvement in that particular transaction.

I suspect there was more to the matter than those particular facts that the Minister made before the House . Are either of these two bodies prepared to give an explanation to the Committee through the Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , it would be difficult for me to comment on that question without knowing the specifics of the question .

If the member has a particular transaction that he is referring to - I can't recall being in the House or being present when the Minister responsible for Housing spoke on the subject matter, but certainly if the member brings to my attention a specific transaction, then I would ask staff to provide me with the details . I should correct an earlier statement. Mr. Osler advises me that MHRC uses the Land Acqu isition Branch in the purchase of property . They do not use the Land Value Appraisal Commission as to the certifying of the - pardon me, I'm getting it straight now.

In the acquisition of land, MHRC has traditionally used the services of the Land Acquisition Division and also the certification from the Land Value Appraisal Commission , but in the dispersal of land, they operate on their own, which again is not, you know, consistent with general policy.

Any land dispersed by government as such, the departments, that is when Highways has surplus lands to their needs after complet ion of a highway, or other government departments, and they find it desirable to dispose of a particular portion of land, then it is also disposed through the offices of the Land Acquisiton Branch . -(Interjection)- MHRC does not do it. They do it on their own . In other words, to come to the nub of the question that the Honourable Member for St.

Vital is asking, the Land Acquisition Branch, the branch that we're now discussing , has no involvement in the sale of land by that corporation . -(Interjection)- We have involvement by the purchasing of the land, but we do not have involvement by the sale of the land . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister indicate whether, in the Land Value Appraisal Commission, do they have contact with other agencies of the Crown besides the regular departments and MHRC in terms of viewing their purchases, or at least consulting with them?

Do other agencies come before them to have them examine the purchases that they are making? Not the Land Acquisition Branch but the Land Value Appraisal Commission, which I presume would be under this . . . MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman, not at the time. You're speaking about other agencies, for instance, like Hydro . MR. URUSKI: I'm speaking about the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation, Manitoba Hydro, Manitoba Telephone.

Do they touch base with the appraisers and/or with the Land Value Appraisal Commission to have them view the likes of any of their major purchases that they may be making on land within the province? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, to answer the Member for St. George, they do not.

I quite frankly and openly solicit his support for an amendment to the Land Acquisition Act, that in my judgment, they ought to, simply to provide a more consistent approach when government, and I use the overall phrase , whether it's Hydro or Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation or MTS , when they require land for public use, that it would be I think in the interests of better understanding by the general public when they these lands are so required, if they had one agency that did in fact touch base 4723

Monday, May 28, 1979 for all. MR. URUSKI: Could the Minister indicate whether at any time in the last number of years was there a procedure which involved consultation between the Land Value Appraisal Commission and ~ other agencies in the purchase and examination of land that was being purchased? Now maybe there was certification of purchases.

I'd like to know whether purchases made , say by - it seems to me that I recall that MPIC did submit their purchases of land , and that's going back a number of years when I was Minister , did submit their purchases of land to the Land Value Appraisal Commission for examination. Now the Minister tells me this is no longer the practice . Was it the practice of other agencies?

Because I do recall MPIC doing that , submitting their purchases to LVAC in other communities where claim centres were being set up so that the Land Value Appraisal .; Commiss ion could at least look at it in light of other purchases that are going on, whether - I can't recall whether there was an actual certification , but at least there was an examination and a comment if the prices were out of line or not. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , what the member says, it's quite possible that agencies such as MPIC might well have availed themselves of the knowledge and the expertise of the Land Value Appraisal Commission , but they weren 't bound to by statute and it has not been a general practice . The Land Value Appraisal Commission was only set up about 1966-67 and I think was part of an evolution which I think is still going on with respect to government purchasing land .

I reiterate again, I believe that the whole business of government's manner and method of acquiring land ought to be done in a fairly consistent manner and that as we're building up the expert ise in a particular group such as the Land Value Appraisal Commission, it would seem to me just good common sense that agencies of government should utilize that function .

I'm given to understand , and the former Minister responsible for MPIC, I won 't argue with him if he indicates to me that that corporation from time to time made use of the Land Value Appraisal Commission to kind of satisfy themselves that they were on the right track , I have no doubt that that took place , but I point out that they are not bound to do so by statute, and neither are any of the other agencies of government . MR.

URUSKI: Just to ask , in the same way as I asked before , the Minister didn't answer my question with respect to whether other departments in the past availed themselves , although they were not bound, as the Minister indicates by law to do so, to make contact with LVAC on purchases, like MACC , for example , or Hydro . Was there a practice in those , if not now , in the last say, five years? MR. ENNS: Mr . Chairman , Mr. Jack deZeeuw, Director of the Land Acquisition Branch, is not with us this evening , and he might be able to cast a more specific light on the subject matter , but Mr.

Osier informs me that to the best of his knowledge that has not been the case . MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, when the Minister looks at possible changes to the Land Acquisition Branch , or the procedures with respect to the purchase of land , I don 't think there is any doubt that if he wishes to look at not standardizing the policy with respect to purchases , because I think there has to be separate approaches taken by governments in terms of their land requirements, I, for one , would not argue for a straightforward expropriat ion after certain procedures are undertaken in terms of lands that are required, say, for highways or for drainage purposes , that there not be a very long drawn-out procedure in terms of the public need for a definite parcel of land .

But when it comes , of course , to the purchase of land for housing or for parks in those other areas , I believe there has to be a flexibility in terms of the approach that governments should take, so that when he looks at possible changes and the like , he should look at areas where there be policy developed that is in some areas both fairly straightforward , but also in other areas, quite flexible, and looks at more than just the straight public need in terms of the two types of projects that I've alieady mentioned.

So he can certainly , if he wishes to move in that direction , I, for one , provided some of the comments that I have made would be incorporated , and I think they probably are as a basis of policy now. Only he's talking about standardizing the procedure - he should give it a try and see whether his colleagues will accept it. MR. ENNS: Just a final comment on that to the Honourable Member for St. George, I invite the honourab le member 's comments and helpful suggestions , when as is my hope , a bill dealing with the matter will be presented to the House . MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for Wolseley . 4724

- Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. BERT G. WILSON: Mr. Chairman , under this

section , I've been waiting for a long time to put on the record some of the things that have been bothering me about this. I'm very pleased to see he talked about the acquisition of real property and all departments and agencies whose programs involve the need , and I underline the word "need " for land and buildings .

It would seem to me that when you have over a $200 million deficit that it's time, that if you have more owners you have more wealth, I think the coffers of the taxpayers of this province need a break and I think that we should be on with the job of selling some of this so- called need for land - because how much land and buildings do the state need? I can give several personal experiences which really bother me.

I was tired in Public Accounts and as a member of opposition sitting watching, time after time, members of the private sector become millionaires at the expense of people that may or may not still be with this department. About people who went out and bought moose pastures and sloughs and land access and land-locked land, talk about 10 Osborne Street over there as an example, the former member bought for 85,000 that wasn't worth 30, and these are the type of things that bother me.

It seems that here we have a fellow such as myself who can look forward - and I won't use the words, an Empire Loyalist or pioneer stock , but I look to the fact that my relatives got put to the cleaners by governments under their so-called need for land .

I think that governments should be a consumer advocate for many of the people who have for 50 to 60 years owned land in their families and decisions are made in the marketplace and behind closed doors that seriously affected the people of this province and I can't see how the AI Zivots and the Tommy Sidebottoms can be millionaires because they package land together. What is wrong with our staff people that if we need land, they can 't go out and package the land themselves? What are they doing as civil servants?

Are they earning their money or are they just sitting back, saying to somebody like Sidebottom and Zivot, "you go out and get us 400 acres and we'll pay you so much ," and they go out and option the hell out of it and within a couple of hours , they 're millionaires . And that has to rest, that fault and that inflationary aspect of land has to rest with the former government . That really bothered me. Another thing that bothers me, personally, as I say, in my own particular land that I have and I have a series of them, in St.

Vital they told me they were going to expropriate me if I didn't give them the land and I ended up giving them the land for $11 ,000; i's still sitting there, right on St. Anne 's Road. And I think this is one of the tragedies that the so-called need for land that government gobbles up. I mean, I think that at some point in time, if the government doesn't need it, why do they engage in exaggerations , and I'll even go as far as to say, engage in so-called needs of land which do not exist? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood on a point of order . MR.

DOERN: The Member for Wolseley keeps directing his comments to me. I am not defending my Estimates ; I wish he would address his remarks to the Chair and attack the present Minister rather than myself. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood does not have a point of order . It is not the direction of the Chair to say where a person has to look . The Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman , I did not mean to offend the Member for Elmwood. He happened to be involved in the 10 Osborne Street one, but I was just merely using that as one slight example .

My comments to this Minister are that it seems to me that we have people on staff, who we are paying good money to, and if we have to package land together the days of people .. . You know, I have friends that say,"Tell me where there is a Socialist province and I will become a millionaire ." It's unbelievable ; when people know that Socialists are going to buy everything, they immediately go out and package land together and sell it to the government . I think that this government should stop buying land unless it is needed. We should begin selling today .

This very hour we should announce to the public, the more owners, the more wealth, and reduce that deficit that we inherited from the former government. And I would think that if we sold land. rather than by tender we sold it at auction with a reserve bid, we would watch the action proceed; we would watch the prices go up, and I would suggest that that is the method we should use.

And I would like to see the onus, rather than buyer beware on the government's part, where the government gets stuck with the moose pastures and the sloughs, that maybe some of those foreign buyers and some of those othrr people should end up buying some of this stuff and we, in turn, could reduce the public debt. 4725

Monda y, May 2 8, 1979 Again, I wanted to put on the record that I honestly feel that government's that come along - and I use an example of Gimli; I know a family there that had 40 acres expropriated. It was lakefront property; they had been there for 30 years . They were an old Ukrainian couple , that this was their farm . The government paid them $34,000 for it . They had to buy a house in Gimli for $26 ,000 and their lawyer grabbed $4,000 .00. They ended up with a net of $4,000 .00.

They had one acre , not 40, and the government went in there with a bulldozer and knocked down the 50-year-old beautiful trees and the landscaping that they had spent years building . These are the type of properties that are not needed that should be offered back to the same people, with all costs included, at a slight margin for inflation, and offer them the land back i.e. or sell it. What was this great idea to expropriate all the lands along Lake Winnipeg?

To me, if we're going to sell them at $10 ,000 a lot , great , but if we're expropriating for flood protection or the fact that the Lake Winnipeg Regulation may not work , or whatever, I don 't think that that's proper. I think that these lands should be left in the private sector , and I've been want ing , for a long time , to put this on the record . I think it's terrible . I went to Assiniboine Credit Union - and I buy and sell quite a bit of stuff - and they wanted me to pay some character $175 to ride by a piece of property in his car and give a windshield appraisal.

And much to my disgust - and this is one of the things of why the Crown agency should be under the Minister 's thumb - is this man is employed by Manitoba Hydro, and I think that it's terrible for the Appraisal Institute to allow government employees and employees of the Crown agencies to compete with them , and I think they should begin today to complain to the new Conservative government that they do not approve of moonlighting , especially at the tune of $175 to give us some kind of a windshield appraisal. As I say, I just wanted to say that I don 't think there is any more .. .

There is always going to be some need for certain lands for , certainly , highways and stuff like that , but I think the day is fast approaching ... I went by, on my way in here , down Henderson Highway and I passed a building in Elmwood , a purchasing building , in the old Snowdon Building . Now , what in the world is the Purchasing Department of the Manitoba Provincial Government doing in the Elmwood Constituency , when it should be down here , where it should be a communication . And I asked the Minister the other day why we renewed the lease .

I know we had to renew it, but I hope that he finds .. . -(Interjection)- No, I don 't want it in Steinbach , either . That would just be switching it from Elmwood to Steinbach . I would rather see it in the core area of the city. So really, as I say, we don't have a bowling alley in Wolseley and we don 't have a government building in Wolseley, that I know of. I believe we do have a welfare office . I'm not sure if it's on this side of Portage or the north side . But, just to wrap up , I wanted to put on the record that we should begin to sell land today .

I look at some of the aggressive American states that are getting down to so-called getting out of debt, and they are selling off large tracts of land . I look at Florida , the leaps and bounds at what they have done with swamp land and so-called desert. I was told we didn 't have any bad land in Manitoba , that , compared to Europe , our farmland , even the A, B, C, even the D land or the Number 4 land , is as good as it is in many countries of Europe and , for that reason, I would like to see us . . .

And , again , one of my pet peeves is right across from the Convention Centre there is a big chunk of land that is the last piece of the puzzle of development for the downtown core, and it is owned and is one of the most under-used govern ment parking lots that I have seen.

I know the former member wanted to build a $7 million parking lot there , but if we're not going to build a parking lot there I think we should sell that land because if we sell that land and the new developer supplies parking that means on the west side of the Convention Centre we will be able to get the hotel development that we need to make that entire package , the downtown selling package , available to help the Convention Centre get out of the red . And those are the kind of things that I am talking about.

Sell what we don 't need because today 's market prices, there is a good bullish market and I would like to see us sell more land and reduce the public debt that we inherited from the likes of the Member for Elmwood . MR. CHAIRMAN: (aX1)-pass - the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I just wanted to give the Minister the opportunity to reply to his co lleague, and if he doesn 't I do have the specifics of that matter that I mentioned to him just a few minutes ago where his colleague, the Minister reporting for MHRC , said of Friday, February 23rd, Page 206 of Hansard , " They expropriated the old Burrows Court , Mr. Speaker . Mind you, it was condemned and it was expropriated and the expropriation figure is $85,000 .00. We are still in negotiation , mind you. We may have to pay more. It looks like , when the negotiations are over , we might have to.

We had estimates for fixing it up that probably range from $250,000 to 4726 ...

Monday, May 28, 1979 We found that after we did that , we wou ld end up with a building with suites in it that we could have bought brand new buildings for for less money . So we thought we'd put it on the market, Mr. Speake r, to see if we could move it. We got offered $15 ,000 for it." Now , perhap s t he Ministe r would like to exp lain to the Committee a few more details about thi s particula r transact ion. ~ MR. ENNS: Well , Mr.

Chairman , I am advised that that's part of the problem that I suppose I am hoping to correct , that while Land Acquisition was involved in the purchase of the department (sic) it has nothing to do with the sale of the property and, you know, you might well raise the question as to the judgment that was exercised in terms of recommending that kind of a price for the purchase when obviously , the experience of MHRC when it came to sale of the property, there was such a wide disparity between the purchase and market value for that property. But, to the specific question , I am not attempting to dodge the issue .

The Land Acquisition Branch is not involved in the disposal of the property . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, the clear impression left by the Minister is that this particula r property is worth $15 ,000 , i.e., the amount that was offered to MHRC for it. That being the case , you will have to wonder why it went to expropriation and why the expropr iation was settled at $85 ,000 for it. I understand the usual reason for expropriation, which is a rather time-consuming exercise, is that the owner doesn't accept the offer that is made for it and that it then goes to expropriatio n and a fair value is established for it.

Now , can the Minister tell us whether there was an offer made on this

part icular proper ty, was it refused and did it go to expropriation? And is the Min ister sat isfied that the figure of $85,000 was a fair market value for this particular property? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman , I am not, again , fully apprised of the facts but I do point out to the honourable member that , if indeed it went to expropriation, then a third agency , name ly the courts , establ ished the price, and they might have included in establishi ng a fair price a number of matters that were germane to the owner of the property at that time but not necessarily ref lected when the use of that property wasn 't used for what it had been . I am not really in a position, Mr.

Chairman , to answer to the specifics that the member raises, other than to ind icate to him that the branch that we're deal ing with was not involved in the dispersing of that property or the sale of that property. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , at the moment I am still considering the acquis ition of that property . Does the Minister know whether there was an offer made and refuse d? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , staff cannot advise me of the details of tha t particular offer. I will undertake to find out the specifics of it, the manner and way in which acquisition of that property was undertaken . MR.

WALDING: I ask the Minister if he is of the opinion , after the matter went to court, that that

part icular property or that $85,000 was a reasonable or fair value to put on that property? Would he also consider that it has not depreciat ed in value since it was purchased and that it is probably now wo rth, fairly , $85,000 or even more , since it has probably app reciated since that time, and tha t the $15 ,000 that someo ne offered the depar tment was a ridicu lously low figure? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I will undertake to find the answers to those questions . MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)(1)-pass; (a)(2)-pass ; (a)-pass; (3)-pass ; (b)(1)-pass; (b)(2)-pass; (b)(3)-pass . Resolution 61, Item 6-pass - the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I want to spend some time in this

section because there are quite a few government build ings that are either in a state of construction , a state of suspension or in a state of renovation. And I wanted to review, with the Minister, what I call Capital but he calls something else, and I have a list here of I guess about a dozen such buildings. I wonder, again, if we could review the Brandon Correctional , for starters , and if the Minister could indicate how much money has been spent in Brandon and how much more money will be spent for the completion of that facility . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that the total project cost will approach the $6,915,666, as indicated at the introduction of my Estimates, that we look at September occupancy, and this 4727

Monday, May 28, 1979 is essentially coming in line with the projected cost as originally indicated . MR. DOERN: Just again , how much has been spent, and how much is now committed to conclude? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , the general contract cost was some $5,486,000.00 That has been spent. We are now in a total project cost, which includes furnishings , total completion of the inside ,_ structure brings that cost up to $6,900 ,000 .00. That's what is being spent right now. The building , in effect , is complete , Mr.

Chairman , to the Honourable Member for Elmwood, the additional $1.3 million of inside furnishings are being put in place . MR. DOERN: That's a total of 7 MR. ENNS: No. a total of 6.9. MR. DOERN: $6.9 million, right. Again , the Law Courts renovations , how much has been spent , and how much is committed for this year? MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Member for Elmwood like to repeat his question? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, essentially the work that has been done in the Law Courts has been in the installation of the elevator service , roughly to the extent of some $160,000 to $180,000.00 .

That is, as the honourable member knows , the preliminary phase to the renovation in the Law Courts Building . The expected expenditure for the coming year - staff will advise me of in just a few moments . MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Member for Elmwood wish to repeat his question? MR. DOERN: Well , Mr. Chairman , I understandnwe have committed about $180,000, completed renovations to the Law Courts of the order of $180 ,000 .00 .

I was asking for the commitment for this fiscal year, as to what the government intends to commit , because there have been lengthy discussions and negotiations between the Manitoba judges , Chief Justice Freedman and others with the government over a period of years . to renovate that building because it is simply not suitable - it's 60 years old , there 's a lot of deficiencies in the building - shortage of court rooms , etc ., etc ., lack of security and we considered a renovation which was cut or slashed.

So, so far we've only , I gather , completed the original commitment of a first phase of elevatoring, etc., and I was just wondering what other commitments there are on the books for this fiscal year and/or in the future? MR. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, the whole question of the provision of space and facilities , improved space , additional court rooms is subject matter that's under very active review .

There are a number of alternatives being studied at the moment which include the use of, as the member is aware of, for the provision of additional provincial court room space , which would alleviate some of the congestion within the Law Courts Building . It is also being considered to perhaps make use of the old Land Titles Building by means of a connecting tunnel.

These are capital projects that will be undertaken hopefully in the very near future , but we have not got a specific commitmen t or allocation provided for in the Budget or in the Estimates before you because of the numerous differen t plans and projects that are being considered . MR. DOERN: Well , Mr. Chairman , if 1 understand the minister co rrectly, then he's saying that there really are no commitments, that they're still reviewing , etc ., etc . Have there been any meetings?

Has the minister , in his, I don 't know 12 out of the last 18 month term in government services or 14 out of 18 months , whatever it was - has he been involved , has he sat in on meetings with the Provincial Judges? Because I know that I certainly did , and I would assume that he probably did , or should have , assuming there were such meetings . Has he been involved , or was Mr. Spivak involved in meetings in the past year? MR. ENNS: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I have been involved with a meeting with the judge s, both the Provincial Judges as well as the senior judges in concert with the Attorney-General.

We're only too well aware of the situation that prevails . The Membe r for Elmwood is equally well aware that the government is in the process of attempting to , or not attempting but is making a firm offer for additional building space within the general area , that hopefully in a relatively short period of 4728

Monday, May 28, 1979 time , and when I say short I'm spea king in the order of six or seven months , will enable considerable expansion of provincia l court room space on a tem porary basis. That hopefully will open up more options to us with respect to the requirements of the senior judges circuit, but there are a number of alternatives being explored by the department at this time . MR.

DOERN: So then the minister is saying that, in terms of the Law Courts themselves, and as t- I say there are discussions that went on in our administration for a couple of years , there are con tinuing discussions going on with the senior judges as to their requirements, that there are no financial commitments to the Law Court renovations per se. MR. ENNS: That's right, Mr. Chairman. MR. DOERN: And I was just wondering again, when we consider the Provincial Judges Building or Provincial Courts Building which is part of the package.

I'm aware of the fact that the government is considering buying the IBM building which is part of that package. In fact maybe the Minister could comment on that. Has that building been purchased or leased? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, steps are under way to purchase the building . The normal proceedures of land acquisition, involvement, certification by the Land Value Appraisal Commission has taken place, my understanding is that an offer to purchase is currently being drawn up - an offer to purchase not to lease. MR.

DOERN: Can the Minister indicate the negotiated purchase price or the suggested purchase price and the amount of money indicated for renovations of that facility? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, to the Honourable Member for Elmwood, we are hopeful in purchasing that building for some $975,000.00. We anticipate with, understandably at this point, relatively preliminary figures re the renovations involved that would provide , and this is still subject to some further negotiation with the Attorney-General 's Department as to the actual number of courtroom facilities required, in the order of 6 to 7 renovations ... Mr.

Chairman, it would be too early and probably not appropriate to talk about renovation prices, in the sense that we are going to tender very likely for some of those costs but the renovations , as the member will appreciate , will be extensive in the sense that the building which is primarily an offic e structure now will be converted to house a number of courtroom facilities .

My understanding is, to provide the necessary, you know , use of that building suitable for that purpose, would require such major capital improvements such as additional elevator facilities that would provide judges with appropriate exit and egress from the building into their courtrooms .

Just by way of genera l information the property at 373 Broadway, known as the IBM building, consists of some 8,512.5 square feet of space; some 28,000, or land area, pardon me - the actual close building area is some 28,000 square feet, 28,657 square feet; what they refer to as net rentable area some 22,940 or 23,000 square feet. But we anticipate that the renovations will be of the order of % of a million dollars or more. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I'm not quite clear again .

The government is considering purchasing the building for just under $1 million and about 31• of a million to renovate , and again what is the intention? Is this going to be a temporary use of courtrooms or a permanent use of courtrooms? If it's temporary will it then be reconverted or is this now going to be part of the permanent picture of Manitoba courtrooms, etc. etc .? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I believe the Attorney-General will probably be a more appropriate party to ask those questions although I don't mind, you know, as part of the executive council to indicate the general intentions of government in this respect. We do not regard the acquisition of this building to resolving the question of providing adequate and desirable peimanent courtroom space to replace the Provincial Judges ' Build ing.

We see this as a desirable way, however , to in a relat ively short term meet the need in the Attorney-General 's Department and to process and to speed up the backlog that currently exists within the judicial system. We also look further down the line . We recognize that this kind of a building with the renovations now being recommended would adequately serve the Family Court systems in Manitoba and bring them into a more centralized position in contact with the support of administrative offices in the Woodsworth Building and the government agencies involved with Family Court .

The Honourable Member for Elmwood is aware that at the moment Family Court services are scattered throughout 4729

Monday, May 28, 1979 the city. Some of them in the Fort Osborne complex buildings, housed in buildings which are deteriorating at a pace where continued maintenance and operating costs are becoming prohibitive and we look forward to the renovations that we're planning for the property at 373 Broadway will in effect be put to good and more permanent use as the future site of the Family Court Services within the central area of the judicial complex and that within a reasonable time that we will proceed with the long planned construction of a Provincial Judges ' Building . MR.

CHAIRMAN: (6)-pass - the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I have some problems with this in that I, you know, realize that there is perhaps some sort of short term requirement but there 's really two extremes here .

On one hand there is a long outstanding requirement to renovate the existing Law Courts, which isn't being done and isn't being planned , and on the other hand there is a need to proceed with the construction of new courts, and to that end property has been expropr iated and acquired and in terms of sites it could be the construction at the site for which the land was acquired or the government chooses , since it's their decision they could revert back to the site adjacent to the Law Courts.

So those two requirements continue and at the same time there seems to be no movement on those two fronts , no movement to ren ovate the buildings that we own and no movement on the construction of buildings that we need . The government then decides to pick up a new property and spend $1- % million for a short term solution. So, I'm simply saying that it would appear that , you know , this is only a temporary solution and there could be some wastage of money here. There could be some money that is thrown away , in that it is necessary to move on these other two fronts .

Instead of moving on those fronts , the Minister and the Attorney-General , in response to criticism , is picking up a building and renovating it. I think it would have been better and more advisable if the government had decided somewhere about 6 to 12 months ago to continue to renovate the existing Law Courts and to plan the construction of a new building . Instead nothing was done and now there is sort of a panic response to acquire a building and to pour money into it for a short-term solution . That still leaves the other two requirements . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, you know renovating of the existing Law Courts Building does nothing to handle or to meet the problem that surely is the most important one , that is to provide additional courtroom space and to start making some inroads in the backlog of cases that the Attorney-General 's Department faces . Secondly , once you relieve the congestion and remove the Provincial Judges out of the present Law Courts Build ing, that gives us a great deal more elbow room in terms of making that facility more acceptab le to the senior courts and indeed proceeding with the plans.

Many of them are on the drawing boards and complete, to provide within the old Law Courts Building the kinds of facilities that the Senior Benches require . But I think the point that the Honourable Member for Elmwood is missing is that to embark on the renovations of the old Law Courts Building by themselves , does nothing to relieve the pressing problem that members of the Opposition have made the Attorney-General only too well aware of, that is, namely, the need for more courtrooms and to improve the backlog situation of cases .

I really find it somewhat hard to understand why the honourable member cannot accept the fact that if we can have 10 or 11 courtrooms in place and funct ioning within six or seven months that that isn't a very wise investment , both in terms of dollars spent and in terms of meeting public policy and , particularly , it would not be all that wise an investment if, after having done that and used those facilities for three or four years while a new courthouse was being constructed , we then turne ·d the property back over to private office use or tried to sell the building.

But we have , as I have indicated , a very specific requirement for that building , w hich we think will fit very nicely into the total judicial complex by moving the Family Court facilities into these facilities that we are now hopefully , going to have available for the Provinc ial Judges within , I say, a relatively short time.

Now , when I say a relative ly short time , the Member for Elmwood is well aware that to commence, whether it was five months ago or four months ago or six months ago , on a major construction of a new courthouse would still not have provided within that time frame of the next two years, any easing of the load that the Attorney-General 's Department faces . 1 have to refute the suggestion that there is any wastage of pub lic money .

In fact, I think - and I don 't have the figures before me and I don 't choose to use them in that case - but we have been assured by the senior judges of the Appeal Court and the Supreme Court. that if they had the Law Courts Building to themselves , more or less, plus perhaps the expansion of some of the court offices into the old Land Titles Building connected by means of a tunnel, that that complex 4730

Monday, May 28, 1979 would serve the senior benches adequately , providing of course that the necessary renovations were made . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I have to ask the Minister, and to him and through him to the staff whether , in the renovations to the existing Law Courts it was not planned to add new Law Courts, new courtrooms, either by dividing old ones or making old ones which were in disuse useable again? I wonder if the Minister could comment on whether there was going to be some additional new courtrooms added within the Law Courts structure . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , the requirement for expanded courtroom facilities is shared by both branches of the law that is the Senior Courts, as well as the Provincial Courts, and the member is quite right that . within the plans for renovations of the Law Courts Building , additional courtroom space has been planned for. But the request is there for that space from the senior judges , which cannot be met until we house the Provincial Judges elsewhere. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.-pass - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, my other point is that , if the government buys the IBM Building , which I believe will occur, and renovates it and then reverts to office space , that will, of course, have a considerable price tag attached to it. So it's going to cost % of a million to convert it; it may very well cost another % of a million to reconvert it to office space. . MR. ENNS: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass. The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: On the other side of the Law Courts again, is the Land Titles, and that building has been vacant I think, for over a year.

Is that going to be used for court purposes and if not for what purpose will that building be used? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, as indicated, that that is part and parcel of the overall review that is taking place. There has been consultation with the Senior Cou rts that that building could well be utilized for some of their requirements , particularly if suitable renovations are made and an interconnecting tunnel to the existing Law Courts Building is provided for. MR.

DOERN: Does the Minister have any rough figures on what it would cost to convert that or renovate it, or how much it would cost to build a tunnel , which is a pretty expensive undertaking? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, we're talking again in preliminary figures, but in the order of $600 ,000 .00 . MR. DOERN: How many square feet are in that building? MR. ENNS: I can't furnish that information at the moment. Perhaps some of my staff may be able to find that for me in a few moments . MR. DOERN: But it's a fine building, the Honourable Member for Elmwood will agree . It fits in MR.

DOERN: Well, it's a beautiful aesthetic building, not too functional but it should be used . MR. ENNS: It should be used. MR. DOERN: I would agree. MR. ENNS: Right. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask some questions on community colleges, Assiniboine and Red River , in particular. Under Assiniboine, a couple of years ago we were planning an addition to that community college . Could the Minister indicate whether there has been construct ion or whether construction is planned? 4731

Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , that project was cancelled . MR. DOERN: What was cancelled? What was the requested addition for? Was that for new programs , expansion of programs? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I can't answer that question as to the use of the requested space. That's going to have to be directed to the Honourable the Minister of Colleges and Universities, or the Minister of Education, but I can only indicate to the honourable member that that project is not being proceeded with. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister give us some figures on the cost to date of the Red River Community College repairs? MR. ENNS: The costs of Red River? MR. DOERN: I'm talking now about the structural repairs that were necessary due to faulty design . They were getting into the four and five and six million dollar range . Can the Minister indicate how much money has been spent to date and how much money it is believed will be spent to make those repairs? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , some $2,086 ,200 is projected to be spent by the end of 1978-79, which will leave a further $1,438,000 expected to be spent in the year 1979-80 . MR. DOERN: That's $2 million this year and $1 million next year. MR. ENNS: $1.4 million next year. MR. DOERN: And how much has been spent up to now? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I don't have the exact figures that were spent before that, but Mr. Osier advises me that the total approaches the $6 million mark . So we have the two and one, we are at 3.5, there has been close to $3 million spent previous to this. MR. DOERN: I'm just saying, Mr .. .. MR.

ENNS: The total remedial bill would be in the order of , very close to the order of $6 million, Mr . Chairman. MR. DOERN: I'm just saying , Mr. Chairman , that this is, I think one of the more unfortunate government undertakings , namely that there was a retention of a firm of architects who then retained a structural engineer who made a design for this college in the late 1960s, mid to late 1960s, and because of that faulty work , the province has been stuck with a $6 mill ion remedial bill which has to be a very unfortunate and costly state of affairs . MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.-pass - the Honourable Minister. MR.

ENNS: Mr. Chairman , just to answer a question that the Honourable Member for Elmwood asked· me a little while ago, the square footage involved in the old Land Titles Building is some 18,000 square feet. MR. DOERN: Does that include the basement? MR. ENNS: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , I wanted to ask the Minister about a building at the Portage School known as South Grove. I recall there was considerable renovation being done on this building following a tragic fire out there .

Can the Minister tell me what the state of that renovation is, whether it's completed ? 4732 • , . ..

Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , for the member 's edification, it's not South Grove, it's East Grove and I'm advised that we have some $700,000 to $750,000 for renovations to this building , which includes early warning smoke detectors, sprink ler system s, these have been in readiness for some time. Contract has been awarded to Elwood McQuarrie for the East Grove portion; some $701,300 actually expended or committed on smoke detectors and sprinkler systems in 1978-79, and this completes expansion for East Grove.

Further to, just in general, the firm of Green, Blankstein, Russell, have ~ been retained to design and upgrade the entire complex, essentially sprinklers . Some additional $100,000 has actually been expended for the design with some $341,300 expended or committed on upgrading in 1978-79. Design expenditures are 25 percent complete , while the upgrading is estimated at approximately 5.5 percent complete . The total upgrading costs are estimated at .. $6,187,300.00 . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, when the Minister uses the word "complex " and a figure of some $6 million, is he then speaking of the whole of Portage School? MR. ENNS: That's correct, Mr. Chairman . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, my question was a little more specific about East Grove itself, the building, one dormitory and a number of ancillary rooms there, can the Minister conf irm the figures that he gave me as somewhere between $700,000 and $750,000.00? MR. ENNS: That's correct, Mr. Chairman. MR. WALDING : Has that amount all been expended, and has all of the work been finished at that building? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that that amount has been expended and occupancy ought to take place on or about June 30, which is imminent. MR. WALDING: Can the Minister inform me the capacity, the sleeping capacity of the main dormitory there? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman, I apologize, I can 't answer that detail. MR. WALDING: The reason I ask, Mr. Chairman, and I questioned this amount last year, and I seem to recall that the Minister gave us a figure of a quarter of a million dollars a year ago.

Perhaps that was the amount that had been spent as of that date on East Grove, and I recall when we visited that building a year or so ago that what we saw there was a room perhaps a little wider than th is one and perhaps half as long that had, at the time of the fire , accommodated some 10 or 12 students at the school.

It was the ongoing policy of the previous government to move out as many of those residents as possible from the school, and I don 't recall off hand how many residents there were there, perhaps some 800 or 900, and it was the policy to open community residences to move as many as possible out of there, and that East Grove was being used as sleeping accommodation for some of the resident s there more or less on a temporary basis.

When speaking to the staff out there, they informed us that it might well not be necessary to provide this accommodation for some of the students there because of the policy and that, because the building was old and very substantially built, it should not be demolished but could probably be renovated for storeroom space; and that , as such, it would not need the elaborate sprinkler systems and fire exits and the various other requirements of the Fire Commissioner's report.

So I would then have to question with the Minister the justification for some % of a million dollars to provide, you know, accommodation for perhaps a dozen boys in that room. I believe last year, when we were considering an amount of $250,000, I suggested to the Minister that he could probably buy five brand new three bedroom houses for that same amount of money, accommodate more students, but now the amount is up to three times that. I have to ask the Minister, was this policy ever reviewed? Did the Minister seek the advice of the staff out there?

Was there any consideration given to finding other accommodation at a much more reasonable cost, and using this quite substantial building for storage or other purposes? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, just to refresh the honourable member's memory, a year ago when 4733

Monday, May 28, 1979 asked the same question , I indicated that the costs for renovations of East Grove would be $700,000 to $750,000.00 . I'm now reporting that that , in effect , is what we've spent, $700,000 to $750,000.00. I'm also advised that at the time of the fire the facility housed some 54 inmates, residents . But on the general question as to the advisability of whether or not , you know , whether I can justify the expenditure for that particular facility , I would have to in all seriousness defer that to my colleague , the Minister responsible .

I do not set the policy as Minister of Government Services for the Department of Health and Social Development , nor am I equ ipp ed, nor are my staff people equipped to pass judgment as to whether or not the use of that facility is appropriate or not. Experts within the field of mental health care have that responsibilit y.

I concur with the honourable member's suggestion that there has been , and continues to be, a move towards deinstitutionalizing these people , but we have to respond as a Department of Government Services to those requests that the client department , in this case Health and Soc ial Development makes of us. They have asked us to provide these facilities.

We have to adhere to fire code commission 's regulations if they're going to be used for specif ic purposes , if they 're going to be housing resid ents of this nature, and again it 's not a question of not wishing to engage in debate with the honourable member, but I submit respectfully that you 're engaging the wrong min ister for debate . I may well choose to agree with the Honourable Member for St. Vital , that $700 ,000 spent in this particular way might well have been spent in another way . But we respond to the requests of the client department. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman , if the minister told me a year ago that the cost was $700 ,000 to $750,000 , I'll take his word for it, my memory must be at fault then . The figure of $250,000 stuck in my mind . MR. ENNS: That's what we had been spending on consulting fees and things like that at that time . MR. WALDING : Yes. The minister mentioned a number of 54 residents in the building .

Now , can he confirm that those residents were actually in dorm itory circumstances , in that they were sleeping there , or was it just that that number of people were using the building for workshops or recreation or some other purpose? recall distinctly from being there that the area where the sleeping accommodation was , was an area perhaps from behind the minister to the end wall, and there was certainly not more than a dozen beds there . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I'll just explain that a little further . I'm advised that there were some actual 14 students housed in that particular building that burned .

The remainder of the 54 were housed in the same building in the complex . If the member on inspection of the facilit ies, you will recall that the building is separated into two structures , 14 were in the building that you are now referring to and the remainder were in the other portion . MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.-pass - the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , just on that last point , just one question . How many square feet are in East Grove? MR. ENNS: 16,483 , I believe , but I'll just have the staff check that. We'll have to get the accurate number , Mr. Chairman . MR.

DOERN: The $750 ,000 there and the $6 million for Porta ge, is that fire improvem ents only or is that fire and other renovations in both instances? MR. ENNS: Yes. Fire and other renovations. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.-pass - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Can the min ister break out only the fire code requirements out of the $6 million? Approximately what percentage is for meeting the fire code and what is for renovations? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I am advised that the 6 million is all upgrading for fire . MR. DOERN: All upgrading for fire . MR. ENNS: Yes, to meet fire code recommendations. 4734 ..

,- Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.-pass; Resolution 61 - t he Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: One further question on those lines, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister tell us when that upgrading and renovation is expected to be completed? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , the one, the East Grove Building, as I indicated, is ready for occupancy June 30th of this year , but the ong oing program will proceed for the next three or four years. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, will all of that three or four years work be connected with the upgrading for fire protection measur es, as required by the fire code? MR.

ENNS: I am advised that that's the case, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.-pass; Resolution 61 - the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, there are a couple of more bildings I wanted to ask questions on; the Environmental Lab. obviously needed and under way. How much money has been spent? How much more will be spent, and when will that building be opened? MR. ENNS: Construction status : preliminary work is well under way; expected construction completion, March of 1980. Total project cost, some $9,780,045.00 . MR.

DOERN: I'm just wondering if the estimates on that building several years ago were judged to be $7.2 million , they are now $2,500,000 higher; is that the result of the delays? The government put a freeze on that building and has tendered much later than was originally planned. I'm just wondering whether the additional increments can be attributed to a delay in the construction. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , firstly, the general contract cost which the honourable member refers to was originally scheduled at $7,697 ,473.00.

The general contract costs today, under construction, is $7,746,000, so there's a slight escalation of costs from $697,000 to $746,000. The additional cost to completion is the completion of the interior of the building with some of the elaborate equipment that the lab will require , plus furnishings, etc . In other words , again to use terms that my former Minister of Public Works is well familiar with, the pro ject costs , total project costs comes out at $9 million , the general contract cost is 7.7. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, two other buildings, does the Minister have information on the Flin Flon building?

This is a building that we were pressured on by the city of Flin Flon and by the RCMP and there was a plan to construct an office building to consolidate government space in Flin Flon , and also to aid the municipality in the provision of space for the RCMP. Was that project cancelled? MR. ENNS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that project has been deferred. MR. DOERN: Deferred. The other question, Mr. Chairman, is the MPIC requirements . I don't know if the Minister has information there in terms of additional rentals in the past 18 months where they 've expanded in the Royal Bank building, if he has any . .. MR.

ENNS: I was not Minister of Government Services at that time. I'm aware that they have taken up some additional, nor would we necessarily be aware, we don't pay the rent. But I'm aware that some additional space, I believe two floors of the Bank of Montreal building were leased by MPIC but I cannot give the honourable member any details about it. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, maybe I could for one minute switch to a lighter topic and then go to a heavier topic. MR. ENNS: My salary . MR.

DOERN: One of the unusual assignments of the Minister of Public Works is to have portraits painted , not of himself, thank God, but of the Premier of the day and the Speaker of the day. There is one outstanding requirement, and that is the Member for Kildonan, who was a Speaker of the House, now a member of the opposition, the present Speaker , and the present Premier, 4735

Monday, May 28, 1979 and I was just wondering whether the Minister has taken any steps to having these men done in their prime? One can never be certain of the longevity of any member politically or in life itself , and I think it's desirable to have a painting made of somebody when they are still in power , and I'm very concerned, after the results of the federal election in Manitoba , that the writing may be on the wall , and I would much prefer a smiling picture of the Premier as opposed to one when he's not in office anymore . -(Interjection)- My colleague for St.

Vital wants to know whether I'm referring to a miniature . Mr. Chairman , I simply ask the Minister whether he has, having been bounced around in the helicopters and in and out of Government Services and high profile that he is, whether he's had any time to consider the retention of an artis for the purpose of commissioning an artist to paint these pictures. MR.

ENNS: The Honourable Member for Elmwood would appreciate that I would , of course , want to choose an artist with a suitable Conservative bent in his philosophy to portray my Premier and I've been in touch with AI Capp , the cartoonist to see whether or not he would consi der that commission , but I'm advised that he's too busy on a circuit tour and lectures, pub lic lectures in universities throughout the United States and hasn 't got time to take that consideration on.

But I have, seriously , been aware of that responsibility that befalls the Minister of Government Services , and the very capable Irene Levinson from my department has forwarded me information and data with respect to particular artists that have been helpful to the department in the past in this respect , and I will take the concern and the consideration that the Honourable Member for Elmwood has, that my Premier should be suitably portrayed with a painting in due course . I'll see that that gets done in the next 14 to 18 years . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman , I don 't share the Minister 's optimism, but I think it would be desirable if he found a painter to paint his Premier, because if we found a Premier to paint his Premier, it might be a very differe nt result. MR. ENNS: I understand your former Premier had second thoughts about the artist you found. MR. DOERN: He never expressed them to me, Mr. Chairman . But we'll compare . We'll compare the aesthetics . I understand that most of the . . MR. ENNS: You don 't mind if I put Sterling on a chair , though , eh? MR. DOERN: Or on a stool.

But most Premiers , and my impression is, were not overly enthused about their paintings, and you might recall that the Bracken family had theirs redone, many years later, that John Bracken, apparently when he stood at the unveiling , turne d to whoever was beside him , possibly D. L. Campbell , and said , "Do I look like that? " And it was years later that his family had it redone and so on and so on. I'd like to turn to a more ... well, Winston Churchill, we know what happened to his painting . I think his widow, first of all, stored it and then had it destroyed.

It was painted by Graham Sutherland, who 's probably considered the most significant contemporary artist in Great Britain , and the most talented , but he was not too happy with his portrait. At any rate , I trust to the Minister , who has a considerable interest in art -(Interjection)- Russian art being his specialty , and we'll see how he fares in the aestheti c sweepstakes . Mr. Chairman , I would like to raise a serious problem that has arisen in the past few months concerning the operation of Metropolitan Security , which was purchased by the former Prem ier Duff Roblin . .. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , are we dealing with Acquisition at this point? MR. DOERN: Right. Perhaps we could pass this and go to the Minister 's Salary and then I'll deal with that . MR. CHAIRMAN: (6)-pa ss. Resolution 61 , Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $15 million for Government Services - pass . I'd like to refer members to Resolution 57, Item 1.(

a) Minister 's Salary-pass - the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , there were some articles that appeared in the press in January , perhaps 4736 .. ..

• Monday, May 28, 1979 some before and perhaps some later, but certainly in January there were some rumblings in the Tribune and Free Press in particular , some questions raised in the House about government contracts for the provision of security services, both in the prison system and in the general system . 1 want to just ask as an initial comment, before I read from some correspondence that I have, I just want to ask the Minister why it is that Cor rections handle some of the security contracts and Government Services the rest, whether it wouldn' t be logical to have them all handled by Government Services.

I don 't see why we have split contracts or split responsibilities here . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I can't take issue with the Honourable Member for Elmwood on that particular matter , other than to point out that tha t has been the practice throughout the years that he was responsible for Public Works , and/or, as it's now called, Government Services.

I tend to agree with the honourable member, just as I indicated on another subject matter such as land acquisition by government, that if you build up a degree of expertise and responsibility for a particular aspect of government services , then to me it would make common sense that that service should be responsible for these kinds of services throughout government services. But I indicate to you that to the best of my knowledge , Agriculture, Corrections and Health all have, in the past , and continue to, in the present, provide for their own security requirements. Let's agree to agree , Mr.

Chairman , with the Honourable Member for Elmwood , I'm led to believe that that is not any change in policy, but that's a matter of practice that was in place, in effec t when he was Minister, and has carried on to this day . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman , I wanted to deal, and I've sent the Minister some documents there about some complaints dealing with Metropolitan Security, and I want to also read briefly from an ariicle in the Tribune on January 20, 1979, headed "Government Contract System Unfair: Security Firms ." Just to read the first couple of paragraphs here and then to refer to the correspondence that I'm tabling . This

article read as follows: "Security guard firms in the city are fur ious that the provincia l government has given an edge to one firm in bidding on a contract for the guarding of prison inmates in hospitals. 'This is so wrong,' said Richard Henry , General Manager of Active Security Systems, 'this is a pretty sick situation .' Another security firm spokesman called the government action 'rotten ' and he wouldn't let his name be used for fear of losing future gove rnment contracts ." That is in refe rence to the use of secu rity services in the correctional system , and further into the

article , it says that " other security firms say the government 's action makes a mockery of the tendering process . Whatever they bid , Metropolitan will be allowed to match and thus hang on to the contract." That's for this peculiar innovation of allowing the successful firm, the incu mben t firm to match any bids and therefore not to bid themselves but to be informed of bids and to be given the opportunity to meet it. I want to refer to the correspondence I gave to the Minister through the Chair about security services at Keewatin Community College . In the first letter which came from Mr.

Johnston, the Administrative Officer for security in this building, who is responsible in the province, he indicates in a letter that the tender of Sentinel Security for Keewatin Commun ity Coll ege did not receive favourable consideration, and then he thanks the company for submitting . But the company complains in a series of letters about changing type of qualifications; about new procedures ; about lapses in old procedures, all with the result of apparently favouring Metropolitan .

As I say, this was a complaint of other firms in regard to Headingley, and it is a complaint here in regard to Keewatin Community College . And Sentinel writes Mr. Johnston a few weeks later on April 24th and really questions the method of operation and asks, for instance, for information : Number one, of the nam es of all companies tendering and the prices, escalator provisions and the terms . Second, for the record, were all tenders received on time or were some discarded for being too late?

Third , did the newspaper publication of the tender constitute the only communication to the guard contract industry or was it supplied through direct telephone communication, drawing the tender to the attention of one or more companies? And would you be kind enough to let me know what other guard companies have been employed in the years 1972 to 1977 at this site, and the manner in which their services were obtained? So, those questions, Mr.

Chairman, which I think are important certainly for this company and for any company interested in tendering for government security contracts , the complaint being that they couldn 't get this information. They weren't told what the other companies were bidding. Now, my understanding - and I referred to this I guess when we first opened the debate on Government Serv ices - is that the normal type of procedure for opening tenders normally held out at 1700 Portage Avenue is sort of a pleasant show, headed by the Ring Master Sam Sims.

And I have been told by architects this is really kind of an interesting thing to see, where they 4737

Monday, May 28, 1979 hand him the envelope and he reads it out and somebody writes it up on the board , and it's all open tendering . I always think when you're opening envelopes and so on, I always think of the Great Carnac on Johnny Carson . MR. ENNS: Tell me abo ut it. I never saw that. MR. DOERN: Maybe they will invite you . The idea being though , that all the bids are submitted on a certain date .

Anybody can go down there and they can watch the opening to show and demonstrate clearly to everyone that it's open and above board , that nobody is slipping in something late, that nobody is having specia l preferences and everybody can go down there. The numbers are written there. You can see what everybody bid . You can see -(Interjection)- You can see who the successful bidder is, right - the St. James system, as we call it. So, Mr. Chairman , that is a normal method of operation . Now , here we have a company questioning this , and I understand that they were suspicious and are suspicious .

First of all, they can't get information on what other firms were bidding . They attempted to find out on what day the tenders would be opened , and couldn't obta in that information - they seem to have been opened in private - they were suspicious that there were late entries in the bidding system , and they are also suspicious that firms were sort of ensured that they were bidding on these contracts as opposed to acquiring their inf ormation the way other firms would acquire it, namely through the public media . So, there shouldn 't be any doubts about the system . Otherwise , if there is any tampering . ..

And I know that Government Services is pretty jealous of meeting these requirem ents , that there are strict rules and if somebody doesn 't adhere to the letter of the law that they are thrown out and they don 't get a chance to resubmit. And I guess one of the procedures always is, after tenders are opened and after they are sort of announced as to who the successful bidder is, there is a period to ensure that that bid in fact is in order. And that then , takes more time to make doubly certain that that bid is in order .

I then refer to the next letter which appears to have been an afterthought mailed on the same day, asking more questions again about how the government is handling security services , asking again for the names for all contract security presently being provided , the names of the company providing them and the rates , about the time of the contract, asking for the closing date of the last five tenders and a list of those qualified to tender, and so on and so on.

And then the final paragraph saying that, "While I appreciate that it may not be possible to have all the details within seven days of this letter , I would nevertheless like to have it on the record as to whether or not this information could be made available in this manner ." Well , that wasn 't answered in that time and finally on May 10th , another letter attaching still another copy asking for the information , saying , "Would you please advise me if you are in a position to supply the information ?

" And then the key paragraph , "I t is important to me that I understand how the province issues tenders for contract secu rity serv ices, in order that we may bid for this work should we desire to do so." Because the problem is this , Mr . Chairman , that the rules seem to have been changed or seem to have been bent and the firm made this request in a series of letters . Mr. Johnston was phoned a couple of days later, according to a notation on this letter . He said that the information was forthcoming , but he never did reply .

And so I am just asking the Minister why this information hasn 't been provided , whether there have been some new rules or revisions to the standard form of letting security contracts? MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman , I have to refute as I have earlier refuted , any suggestion of any impropriety with respect to the tendering for security services . I have , since the other day that the subject matter had come up , double-checked with staff . My staff advises me that that is the case .

Members of the Committee are aware of an isolated incident where in fact a tender for specific reasons was not called for and a partikular firm was called ppon to offer their services . I refute it, and it bothers me that that kind of a motive is being attached to a particular firm because of the persons or one of the principal 's former political involvement.

It's not unlike me asking my Deputy Minister of Highways - just the other day as matter of fact , this week - how come we're buying all our tractors from George Schreyer , a brother of the former Premi er, a candidate that I defeated in the 1973 election , and he tells me that he wins the tenders and he has got good tractors . Or how come I keep giving Tony Schreyer $1 million and $2 million highway contracts? It's not because he is the former Premier 's brother ; it just happens because he is a good contractor and wins contracts .

I can 't state it any more emphatically , other than to say that the tendering system is straightforward , that there is none of this business of allowing an existing contract holder not to 4738 ..

Monday, May 28, 1979 retender when a tender does come open for a contract. There are extensions under certain circumstances allowed, but in all cases when a contract is open for retendering, the retendering process if followed to the letter of the law. Now, some of the particul ar information that the honourable member brings to my attention via the letter that he has tabled , for instance , the name of all companies tendering, the prices and escalative provisions and like that, I'm not so sure.

I'd have to check whether that is the particular business of the firm or an onus on the part of the government to supply that. A person in an open tendering system knows when he wins the tender and knows when he hasn't won a tender. I don't know whether we in Highways supply all our contractors with the details of the five, six, seven, or eight bids that we might have received on a particular contract. The winning contractor is awarded the contract on the basis of low tender.

If there are circumstances thatpprevail that would make us deviate from accepting low tender , then of course there's a considerable onus placed on the department to explain to those tendering, why low tender was not accepted.

Those occasions happen from time to time when, from our experience, we have reason to believe that a tender for other reasons other than price is not acceptable, but I have to rely on the advice that staff has just given me again on this subject matter, that there's nothing out of place or irregular with respect to the tendering practices for the Security Services as hired by the Department of Government Services. I will undertake, Mr.

Chairman, to talk to my colleagues in Agriculture, in Health, in Cor rections, as to whether or not they would not be better advised to utilize the services of my department in the purchase of this service . I accept the constructive advice given by the Honourable Membe r for Elmwood that these services should, in fact, all be tendered through the Department of Government Services . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just a few more questions here.

I assume that it is public information that when five or six firms bid on a contract, that that is public information, that those bids should be open publicly and that that information should be available to anyone who requests it . Because in the case of the construction of new buildings, those tenders are open in public, the figures are put down , and there's nothing secret about the results. I assume the same should apply; does it apply , has it applied to security contracts? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, but there's a difference .

I quite agree with the honourable member that when a contract , whether it's for road building, or a building, or for security services, that is public informa tion , but the particular onus that the writer of this particular letter indicates says that I, as the department, take on the responsibility of furnishing details of every tender that's received. I assume that his representative was present at the time that public opening of the tenders took place , and that he could follow the illustrious Mr. Simms as he dictates to the chap on the blackboard the . prices that were being recorded.

But you know, I don't necessarily feel that it's my responsibility within seven days to take it upon myself, or to impose on the staff from the department to advise every person tendering for any kind of government services the wherewithal! and the details of why and how come he didn't receive the tender. It is public information. Tenders are opened in public, and 1 think there is some onus on the parties involved to be present to secure that information for themselves. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm simply saying to the Minister that you know, I guess it's the old question about justice must be done and also must appear to be done, that that is equally -(Interjection)- must be seen to be done, as my colleague suggests, knowing the quotation far better.

I'm simply saying that there have been complaints by people in the industry about the manner in which security contracts have been handled, and I think the Minister must appreciate that any firm challenging the existing system, or decrying any injustices, would do so with some fear because to complain may mean, they may feel that if they complain they're dead, or they're going to be blacklisted. I mean this would be a normal concern. I mean a normal reaction would be, "Keep your mouth shut or swallow hard . Don't complain." MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, you know, but surely the honourable member loses sight of the virtue of a tendering system, that precisely that kind of vindictiveness on the part of a Minister or on the part of a staff person is not possible if the department in the government adheres to the open tendering system. That's the virtue of a tendering system, that it doesn 't really matter what my feelings are towards a particular firm, or whether or not as a result of comments or statements made by a particular firm in the past, that doesn't enter into it when envelopes are opened with respect to a service being called for. Well , Mr.

Chairman, if the Honourable two former Ministers of the previous administration are shaking their heads and saying that that's not so, then let me tell them that that is so under this 4739

Monday, May 2 8, 1979 administration . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, the reason for the tendering system and the whole bidding process is to prevent personal preferences and to prevent vindictiveness. But the question that I'm rais ing with the Minister is this , can he ensure the Committee that there is - Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Fitness is outshouting me here. He's fit to be tied, as my colleague says.

As long as you follow the system , there'll be no problems , but I am telling the Minister that in the case of Sentinel , I understand that when they went to submit tenders for a particular job, they were told that, say the deadline was a Friday, and they went there and the tenders weren't opened that day. They were then informed within the next week or two as to who the successful bidder was. The impression was clearly created that the tenders were not opened in public bu

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-69b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 69b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0b7f1a122fe18eb77f6ba82e74791f3b91fb900d

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