Manitoba Hansard — 22 March 1983 (Sitting 31A, 32nd Legislature, 2nd Session)

32-2-31a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Publlahed under the authority of The Honourable D. Jame• Walding Spealcer VOL. XXXI No. 31A - 2:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 22 MARCH, 1983. . Printed by Ille Office Of Ille 0- Prinfer, Province of Mlln/IOba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EY LER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HY DE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW. Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Min nedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elm wood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St James St.

Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St Vital Party NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP IND NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC NOP NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP NOP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 22 March, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . Read ing and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECI AL COM MITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. R EY LER: Mr. Speak er, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Member for Burrows, that the Report of the Committee be received. ' MOTION presented and carried.

MINIS TERI AL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the Annual Report for 1981-82 for the Department of Co-operative Development. ' MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction , of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Question Period, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gal lery, where there are 65 students of Grade 5 standing from the Dr. D. W. Penner School. The students are under the direction of Mrs. Goodman, Mrs. Powell and Mrs. Horn.

The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Niakwa. There are 60 students of Grade 9 standing from Charleswood Junior High School under the direction of Mr. Lerner. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. There are 25 students of Grades 10 and 11 standingfrom the Kelvin High School under the direction of Ms. Manaig re. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for River Heights. On behalf of all of the members I welcome you here this afternoon.

OR AL QUESTIONS Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce President's Remarks - Perverse Conditions in Manitoba MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speak er, a question for the First Minis ter. In a debate, in which he participated last evening with the President of the Manitoba Federation of Labour and with the President of the Winnip eg Chamber of Commerce, the President of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce is reported to have said, "We are perceived outside the province as having a tax on labour.

We are also perceived as a place in which our pension costs are going to be high er than in other provinces. We are perceived as a province in which the rules can change quickly and can be detrimental to business enterprises and th at perce ption of Manitoba is be coming increasingly negative.

Whereas Saskatchewan is being perceived as being open for business, Manitoba is being perceived as having declared an open season on business." 957 Mr.

Speak er, in view of the fact that there are 54,000 unemployed people in Manitoba, and in view of the fact that these perceptions, stated publicly by the President of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, are growing not only within Manitoba but regrettably, Sir, outside of our boundaries, can the First Mini ster tell us what actions he and his government are prepared to take to ameliorate, or to soften, or to destroy these unfortunate perceptions created by his government in the last 14 months, which are acting as a deterent to employment in this province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, it certainly would be an error on the part of any government, including this government, to act upon faulty reporting of perceptions that don't in fact exist. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr. Speaker, is the First Mini ster trying to say that these words were not used by the President of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, or is he merely saying that the President of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce doesn't know what he's talking about? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, what I indicated to the Leader of the Opposition - again if he would note very carefully - that there is no such perception that exists thr ougho ut this country as tha t which was reported. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speak er, the First Mini ster has answered the second branch of the question by telling me that, and telling the people of Manitoba, and Mr. McGinnis that Mr. Lloyd McGinnis, the President of the Winnip eg Chamber of Commerce, doesn't know what he's talking about. If that is the case, does the First Min ister intend to continue his co-operative stance, and posture, and

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 posing that he has been undertaking with the Winnipeg Chamber, or does he intend to carry on with the kind of hypocritical listening, and then turning around and doing perverse and committing perverse policies against the best interest of the people of Manitoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, Mr. McGinnis has his perception, he's certainly entitled to. I should also indicate to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that Mr.

McGinnis, also at the same public meeting, indicated, and did not hesitate to so indicate, that this present Manitoba Government, the New Democratic Government, was indeed the best government that he had dealt with by way of open consultation and open door. Suggested Reduction in Spending Province of Manitoba HON. S. LYON: I daresay, Mr. Speaker, to the First Minis ter, that few other governments have required so much attention from the Chamber because of so many perverse actions this government has perpetrated. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the widesp read perception of this government as being anti-busi ness and creating a negative atmosphere for investment in our province - which perception, by the way, I tell the Premier is true, that is the perception that is held beyond the provinc e - is the Fi rst Mini ster prepar ed to gi ve reconsideration to the 1.5 percent unemployment tax which has contributed, in large measure, to this negative perception across the country relating to Manitoba and investment prospects in this province which would create new jobs in this province? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, believe in answer to the Leader of the Op posi tion, this would be an appropriate occasion for me to indeed remove what are some of the misconceptions that the Leader of the Opposition is espousi ng. Insofar as investment, total investment in 1983, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba was one of only three provinces that experienced even nominal investment growth, and is the only one west of the Maritime s that is pr ojected to enjoy total investment growth. So, Mr.

Speaker, if there is such a perception in the mind of the Leader of the Opposition, then it is but a figment of imagination because the facts do not bear that out. Mr. Sp eaker, in addition, as the Leader of the Opposition might wish to check, he will find that Manitoba enjoyed the highest growth in retail sales in 1982 of any province, bear none, in Canada. Thirdly, the Leader of the Opposition may not be aware tha t Manitoba enjoyed the second hig hest retention rate for retention of jobs in Canada in 1982. The Leader of the Opposition also may not be aware, Mr.

Speaker, that Manitoba moved from having the third lowest rate of unemployment in Canada to the second lowest rate of unemployment during the past two months. Alberta, which had traditionally enjoyed the second lowest rate of unemployment, moved into the third lowest unemployment level. So, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is talking about perception. I grant him the right to talk about perception, the right to talk about imaginary impressions, Mr. Sp eaker; I am talking about fact. 958 HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, to get back to the first part of the question, the First Min ister needs to be reminded that I was using statements that were said in his presence last evening by the President of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce and he is talking about the perceptions held about this province across the country. I know that they happen to be true and my honourable friend can pull out whatever wan ing sta tis ti cs he wishes from his department of disinf ormation that he has created in his office, and we'll be talking about that in Estimates, Mr.

Speaker, about how they're fudging the figures with respect to the ones that come out from the Statistics Canada, but I want to ask the First Min ister again, if he is not prepared to review, with his Min ister of Finance and his government, the advisability of removing the 1.5 percent Payroll Employee Tax that he has placed on Manitobans, which is a deterrent to employment in this province, No. 1; and No. 2, is he not prepared during the course of this Session to reduce the rate of expenditure increase which print-over-print is 19.5 percent, not 17 percent as this Min ister of Finance said, but print-over-print 19 percent, is he not prepared to reduced that rate of expenditure to try to get this province back on track, in a fiscal sense, so that we can begin to enjoy some new investment and new jobs in this province?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would find it most difficult to find ways and means of decreasing spending when daily we receive recommendations and advice from members across the way as to how we ought to be increasing spending. Mr. Sp eak er, during th ree weeks sinc e the commencement of the Session, once we calculate - and we shall be calculating - the request for additional spending that have been made by honourable members across the way, we would be talking in terms of millions upon millions of dollars of additional expenditure. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, is the First Mini ster saying that there is no alternative, that he and his Min isters can conceive of, to reduce an expenditure increase of 19.5 percent, when all other provinces in Canada are operating at somewhere in around 10, 12 or even under 10 percent of an increase? Is the Minister saying that his government lacks so little understanding of fiscal affairs of the province that they can't reduce spending? MR. S. ASHTON: Let's hear some suggestions. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, somebody said, let's hear some suggestions.

Well, why did we have to hire a whole packet of escaped NDP ers from Saskatchewan at $50,000-a -year jobs? They could start with four or five of them, Mr. Speaker, if they wanted to save a quarter-of-a-million. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, yes, there is a method by which we can reduce spending this year and that is to eliminate the $200 million Jobs Fund. We do not intend to do that, Mr. Speaker. Jobs are the No. 1 priority and we don't intend to delete the $200 million Jobs Fund. At the same time, Mr. Speaker, we are

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 �oing to exercise much more caution and prudence than what has been recommended from members across the way over the last number of days by way of increased spending here, increased spending there, allow for 20 percent preferentials in respect to in province tendering and government contracts. No, Mr. Speake r, we are proceeding in a prudent and wise fashion, and we don't intend to delete the $200 million Jobs Fund which I know honourable members across the way would be the first to do. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Spea ker, would the first Minis ter or his Min ister of Finance, if either is capable, kindly tell the House and the people of Manitoba what percentage of the alleged deficit of $579 million, which is going to be much hig her, is contributed to by the so-called $200 million Jobs Fund which my colleague, the Mem ber for Turtle Mountain, has already displayed to be a fraud? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speak er, the Leader of the Opposition probably didn't hear all of the debate a few days ago with respect to that issue and therefore isn't aware of the facts.

His Finance critic absolutely totally distorted the numbers, I'm sure not knowingly. There was a great deal of confusion by him. He came along and, in adding up our last year's spending, came to the conclusion that we had approximately $175 million of capital spending based on the way we had capital items defined last year and on a redefinition that would have been $306 million. He therefore concluded that there was $125 million that had changed as a result of di fferences in definition. That was an abs olute incorrect assumption.

He was out by more than $75 million and we suggested to him then that he get his abacus fixed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speak er, the question - and in its simplicity, I suppose it eluded the Minis ter of Finance - very simply is, what proportion of the alleged $579 million deficit that he is prescribing for the people of Manitoba this year is contributed to by the so-called the $200 million Jobs Fund? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, all of the $200 million is going to be used to create employment in this province in the coming year.

Some of that money, as the Leader of the Opposition well knows. is in

Schedule A, Capital, which is in Crown corporations of the government, somewhere in the vicin ity, I believe, of $85 million. I don't have the exact numbers here. There's also some departmental capital, I believe that there's at least more than $20 million that was totally unallocated that had been calculated right at the end. I had also indicated, when I announced the Jobs Fund in the Budget Spee ch, that it was about double the amount that had been spent the year before and there are certainly some current expenditures there.

Last year, for instance, we started off with a $10 million Job Creation Fund, an unallocated Job Creation 959 Fund of $10 million, plus I believe there was about $4 million for student employment, and we added some to that. So if you add all those numbers up, you have $200 million, not all of which comes from current spending. We never suggested that it did. But after we decided on the Job Creation measures, we then also decided that for a good portion of it, there would be taxation increases in order to make up for those portions. Businesses in Manitoba - government involvement HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speak er, I'm sure I'll be forgiven by you and the people of Manitoba for not asking the same question three times because we failed to get an answer on each of the last two occasions from the Deputy Min ister of Disinformation for this government. Perhaps I can try and have more success with the Minis ter of Economic Development. In view of the statements, Mr. Spea ker, made by the President of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce about Manitoba's being perceived as a poor place for investment, in view of the fact that in a recent article, Robert A.

Sandeen, the Chairman and President of Crown Life In surance Company , formerly the very successful President of Canadian National Railways , said as follows, and I quote: "Another example of undesirable government involvement in the insurance industry is the recent announcement by the Manitoba Provincial Government that it will consider selling life insurance and managing pension funds through its government-owned insurance company." I notice that there is applause from the nether wings of the left-wing party over there, Mr. Speake r. A couple of feathers were undoubtedly lost from the Marxist Eagle. Mr.

Speaker, in view of this kind of comment, in view of the fact - (Interjection) - I'm sure that my line of qu estioning bothe rs the Me mb er for Mi nes and Resources. I would suggest that perhaps he might find circumstances more felicitous if he went out to a marsh somewhere and stayed there. Mr.

Spea ker, in view of these statements, in view of the perverse perception of this province that is being created by announced policies by the Government of Manitoba with respect to life insurance, is the Min ister of Economic Development prepared to prevail upon her colleagues in order to ensure that Manitoba not be the first province in Canada to embark on the life insurance busi ness at a time when we can ill afford to be getting into any ventures of that sort? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, as I understand

Part 1 of the question: Is it true that busi ness feels Manitoba is not hospitable and that somehow, because we are not doing everything that busi ness wants in their priority, that we are being inhospitable to busi ness? I submit the answer is the answer that we've been giving as long as I've been an active member of this party and this government. We're taking a balanced approach. We don't believe that there's an automatic benefit to all the people if we have a large number of thriving busine sses; nor does that mean that we think we can do without a large number of thriving businesses.

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 What we are putting in place is a policy that encourages thriving business on one hand but does not ignore the rights of the workers and the unemployed on the other. It's a balanced approach which does not completely please busi ness, but I submit that many of the policies and programs we have should be quite compatible with what business wants. We are not leaning completely to one side or the other, Mr. Spea ker. We are adopting a balanced approach. When it comes to the question of insurance and pension schemes - (Interjection) - the problem we are trying to solve, Mr.

Speake r, is how to get adequate investment capital to reinvest in Manitoba. We don't believe we should only be going cap in hand to outside investors to come in to Manitoba. We believe we should do some soliciting of outside investors that have a strategic interest in and linkage to Manitoba. So, that is half the program, Mr. Spea ker. The other half is to search out ways of raising and retaining capital here in the province so that we can help ourselves, Mr.

Speaker - a time honoured principle, one that I think the members opposite will also respect so that we can together invest in a stronger economy and society for all Manitobans. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Spea ker, may I first of all thank the Minis ter of Economic Development. Unlike most of her colleagues, she at least tries to answer a question. We may not agree with her answer, but she at least tries to answer. Would she agree with Mr. Sandeen in the same

article then, Mr. Sp eaker, where he made the followi ng statement .. POINT OF ORDER MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Government House Leader on a point of order. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Sp eaker, even my well known tolerance doesn't go that far. It is contrary to the rules with respect to question period to ask a Minis ter of the Crown to comment on a statement made by someone else outside of the House and you have ruled on that question on more than one occasion. I would ask that you consider and make a ruling in that respect. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader is quite right and I am unable to rule on a question until I've heard it all. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd Businesses in Manitoba - government involvement (cont'

d) HON. S. LYON: Mr. Sandeen has said, "Clearly a government competition in the life insurance field is a luxury Manitoba taxpayers do not need and cannot afford, given the size of that province's current Budget deficit and the massive funding requirements of job creating mega projects in the energy field. This is an example of a program which may be inflicted on the public in an arbitrary and unplanned manner." 960 Mr.

Sp eaker, would the Min ister of Economic Development mind explaining to the House how to use her words just spoken, the unemployed and the workers are going to benefit from government competition in the life insurance field, against this kind of comment from a leader in the life insurance field across Canada and against the kinds of perceptions that are being created by this kind of left-wing posturing by this gove rnment which is wo rking a dis service to the unemployed and the workers of Manitoba? POINT OF ORDER MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Now, Mr.

Speaker, that you've heard the alleged question, I would ask you to rule on the point of order that I raised by way of prelimi nary objection. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader on the same point of order. MR. B. RANSOM: On the same point of order, Mr. Spea ker, I believe that the Government House Leader was raising a point of order alleging that the Opposition Leader was asking the Min ister to comment about a statement made by someone outside of the House. That was not the case. The statement by Mr.

Sandeen was simply a preface to the question related directly to an action of the government, Sir, and I suggest the question is therefore in order and the Government House Leader did not have a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader to the same point. HON. R. PENNER: On the same point of order, Mr. Speak er. Indeed, I was listening very carefully to the last part of the rambling question asked by the Leader of the Op position and that last part did, in deed, specifically ask the Mini ster for Economic Development for her comment on Bandeen's adventures into the realms of imagination.

MR. B. RANSOM: On the same point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain on the same point of order. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Sp eaker, there may be some difficulty in being able to rule on this alleged point of order without having reference to the transcript of Hansard. Perhaps you might wish to take it under advisement and proceed with the business of the House. MR. SPEAKER: If it's the agreement of the House, I will take that matter un der advisement to check Beauchesne a little more fully. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd Student Employment MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for St. Norbert.

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, yesterday, student leaders spoke out about the crisis in employment affecting students this year, not to mention the 54,000 unemployed in Manitoba already as a result of this government's failure to provide a proper economic climate for the private sector to create jobs. My question is to the Mi nister of Labour, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the suggestions by student leaders at the University of Winnipeg that unemployment could pass the 25-percent mark this summer, and by the President of the University of Manitoba Students Association that students urgently need summer work and about 15,000 urgently need summer work from the University of Manitoba and may leave school unless they can earn money this summer, Mr. Speaker, can the Min ister of Labour indicate whether or not her announcements - we hope which will be made very shortly - will allow for the creation of a larger numb er of jobs than they did last year? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Labour. HON. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. I will be making the announcement about one of our Youth Employment Programs this week, so the honourable member will have full information on that. The other programs that we have in place for youth employment, such as the STEP Program, which has been in place for a number of years, are continuing of course and applications are being received for that program. The amount of take-up on these programs is of course undetermined at this point.

We certainly hope that young people are going to ava il thems elves of the se opportunities. We understand that they are waiting for us to spell out the requirements, the criteria for the programs, and we will be doing that this week. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for St. Norbert. ' MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a supple mentary question to the Minis ter, can she indicate whether at that time she will be announcing any new job programs which will be shared with the Federal Government? HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speak er, I suspect the member is referring to the articles in the newspaper where Mr.

Axworthy is saying that these considerations are being discussed by Federal and Provincial Mi nisters. Certainly sinc e last Jan uary, when there was a meet ing of Min isters with manpower responsibilities, the problem of youth unemployment had been under discussion. The Federal Government has some ideas of how to put these young people to work; the provinces have some ideas. Where those ideas mesh, I would suggest that we probably will develop some programs. Those programs are not ready for announcement at this point. Pruning of trees re Dutch Elm Disease MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Spea ker, a few days ago, the Member for Pembina asked me to inquire into the 961 possibility of the utilization of the Dutch Elm Disease Program in Manitoba in respect to trees damaged as a result of a recent ice storm. I am advised by my department that the major part of the problem, that is the damaged trees, is on private property and we hope that the thrust of the clean-up will be undertaken by tile private owners themselves in co-operation with the rural municipalities.

To the extent that existing staff is available under the Dutch Elm Disease Program, the department will try to make arrangements for trees to be pruned under two conditions: No. 1, that the downed limbs are from elm trees and therefore likely to be attractive to the Elm Park beetle; and No. 2, that the town or municipality will remove and burn the debris. One such arrangement like this, Mr. Speaker, has already been entered into with the Town of Manitou. If there are any further inqu iries, certainly the department will endeavour to do what we can.

However, there are no additional moni es tha t are rea dily avai lable to expand this program. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: I thank the Min ister for that answer and it will be of some assistance to the communities but since his colleague, the Minister of Labour, is having a great deal of dif ficulty announcing make-work programs and job creation programs, he might consider tapping her $200 million fund to possibly free up some additional funding to undertake further pruning and assistance to those communities. Peguis Indian Reserve - flood protection MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Spe aker. I address a qu estion to the Honour able Min ister of Na tur al Resources. I note, Mr. Speaker, that the Government of Manitoba is proposing to expend some ten millions of dollars in flood protection for the Peguis Indian Reserve. A question to the Honourable Min ister, is this not the same Reserve, the Peguis Band, and the same In dia n Ch ief that refused to accompany the First Mini ster to Ottawa to discuss Constitutional matters because of their belief that the province has no role in these matters?

Is this the same Band, the same Indian Chief? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member is referring to one Louis Stevenson, Chief of the Peguis Band, that is correct. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Sp eaker, the position consistent with past administrations, and I must say this issue has been of some longstanding, that capital works done on Indian Reserve land which previous adminis trations have always had no difficulty recognizing the clear Federal Government responsibility which obviously the Chief, Chief Steven son, also recognizes clearly the role of the Federal Government with respect to affairs that

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 affect his reserve. My question to the First Min ister is HON. A. MACKLING: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'm asking a question of the First Minis ter. HON. A. MACKLING: Oh, you'd better ask a question. POINT OF ORDER MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Mini ster of Natural Resources on a point of order. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Order please. The Honourable Minis ter of Natural Resources on a point of order. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I rose on the point of order for this reason.

The honourable members asked a very convoluted question, making statements or assumptions of fact in his question; I didn't object to it; I gave a very short answer to this specific part of his question, but then, Mr. Speak er, he proceeded to give a long introduction, a long statement, to some probable question that would come in the near future presumab ly, and I object to that. The Rules clearly say that the honourable member may have a short

preamble to his main question, but that supplementary questions are to be asked without any

preamble, and I object to the misuse of the Rule, Mr. Speaker. HON. S. LYON: Back out to the swamp. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain to the same point. MR. B. RANSOM: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, I think everyone in the House recognizes that the Rules call for questions to be as short as possible and for answers to be as short as possible.

We recognize that Minis ters don't have to answer the question, but when the Minis ter of Finance sets an example such as he did today, to go on at length without any reference to the question which was being asked, Sir, it does encourage the opposition to stray slightly from the Rules. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Lakeside wish to speak to the same point of order? MR. H. ENNS: Thank you , Mr. Sp eak er. A supplementary question to either the Mi nister of Finance or indeed ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. M. H. ENNS: Oh, pardon me, I'm sorry. 962 MR.

SPEAKER: Is anyone else wishing to speak to the same point of order? I thank the Honourable Minis ter of Natural Resources. He's quite right and I've quoted before to the House tha t one pream ble, properly ph rased , should be sufficient for a first question, but preferably there should be no

preamble to any subsequent question asked. I would urge members to keep that in mind. Bear in mind also that a long question tends to provoke a long answer. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd Peguis Indian Reserve - flood protection (Cont'

d) MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Sp eaker, I accept you r admonishment. My question is to either the Min ister of Finance or the First Min ister, why would this govern ment be prepared to spend upwards to 40 percent of ten millions of dollars - dollars that obviously they have trouble finding - for a project which is totally the responsibility of the Federal Government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member for Lakeside knows that the question should be referred to the Min ister of Natural Resou rces because it does deal with a longstanding problem of flooding of land upstream and within the Peguis Reserve itself, and that resolution of that problem is not an easy one. It is one in which we wish to involve the Federal Government, because the Federal Government does have responsibility in respect to supervision of Indian Bands and Indian Reserves.

The item dealing with the probable cost or funding for flood works, in respect to the Fisher River, was one of the matters included in a list of projects to be discus sed for cost-sharing with the Federal Government, because obviously there would be benefits to lands upstream, as well as lands within the reserve itself. MR. H. ENNS: I would then ask the Min ister then to confirm that it is now government policy to pay with provincial taxpayers' dollars, projects which heretofore had been the responsibility of the Federal Government. I remind the Honourable Mini ster and I want to make my question short.

In previous flooding, and there has been flooding, and we picked up the tab, the Provincial Government and the provincial taxpayer was always 100 percent refunded by the Federal Government, when moves had to made out at the Peguis Reserve, when works had to be restored, when housing had to be repaired. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Sp eaker, I would like to reply to that statement to this effect, that the item is included in that list for discussion with the Federal Government. The Federal Governme nt has ind icated that it is concerned to know what initiat ives may be taken in

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 respect to public works, in which they may be involved, and certainly the Provincial Government would share some responsibil ity , because it does have some significant advantage for drainage in the whole of the area, and there would be benefits that would accrue, not only to the reserve but to other areas of the Fisher River, upstream. Certainly we would be anxious to talk with the Federal Government about those kind of initiatives. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, my final supplmentary question. Mr. Speak er, I must say that I now am very seriously worried.

Chief Stevenson indicates that the ice, although the river has not broken, is now up at the top of those temporary earthern dams. If this project is on that government's "Wish List" and we have a fast spring break-up, as I've said before in this House, this Min ister and this Government are going to have to answer for it. HON. H. PAWLEY: What is the question? Flin Flon Hospital, Intensive Care Unit MR. F. JOHNSTON: Why ask questions? You don't answer them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Min ister of Health.

I would ask him what backup steps were taken at the Flin Flon General Hospital In ten sive Care Unit when doctors were informed, as alleged, that the unit would be closed from March 10th to 14th because, "of a lack of staff." MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I was informed of the situation and the incident in Flin Flon only yesterd ay. The Manitoba Health Services Commission knew nothing about it and I've asked for a complete report today and I should get in a day or so. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Mi nister could advise the House as to whether or not he knows what reasons lay behind the closure of that ICU or Critical Care Unit, as it's called in that facility, whether the closure was due solely to a reported or reputed shortage of nurses. HON. L. DESJARDINS: The bit of information that I have, that it is indeed because of the shortage of nurses. I'm assured that the hospital had the funds, so it's not a question of money or reduction of funds at all.

It is a situation, as my honourable friend knows, that it has always been a very di ff icult situation to attract manpower and that goes for doctors, for dentists, for nurses, in that area. It is something that is not only in Manitoba, but in all provinces in Canada and probably in all countries of the world. So this is something that I've already invited the different professions to look at the situation of manpower with me. Many of them have accepted 963 the challenge and we'll have to see how we can best recruit people or what action we can take.

But in the meantime, I'm told it's just because there was a shortage of qualified nurses in the area, and it certainly wasn't a question of money, and as I say, I expect a complete report in a day or so. Nursing Manpower - Standing Committee MR. L. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that many Manitobans would like some answers to a number of questions, relative to this particular incident, certainly all of us on this side of the House would.

It's difficult to frame questions when the Min ister says he knows nothing about the incident and he's waiting for a report, which he expects in a day or two, but I want to assure him that we have many, many questions and I would like to ask one right now. That is, why was there a shortage of nurses in that particular facility or that particular community? What happened to the Standing Commit tee on Nur sing Manpo wer, whi ch was established by the previous government, because of cyclical difficulties in nursing supply?

What's happened to that standing committee and its reports to the government as to the staffing of facilities? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Ther e is a Man power Committee - in fact, we have a former Deputy Min ister of my honour able friend who is looking at tha t constantly, that's one of his responsibilities. I'm talking about the whole thing of shortage, Mr. Speaker. If you know the answer, then why tell you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry on a point of order. MR. L. SHERMAN: No, I don't know the answer, Mr. Spea ker, but I'm asking the Minister a specific question.

I'm not talking about the Standing Committee on Medical Manpower, I'm talking about the Standing Committee on Nursing Manpower. HON. L. DESJARDINS: What I was saying is that all shortages are investiga ted by Dr. Johnson of our staff and I wish to say that the Commission, I've checked with the Commission, had no idea at all that there was a shortage. That was never brought to the attention of the Commission. If you don't know there's a shortage, you're not usually that concerned, so this is exactly why I've asked for a complete investigation to know what is going on.

We had never been informed that there was any difficulty at all, although we know, as I stated before, that it is not the easiest thing to attract people to practise either medicine, or a dentist, or a doctor in the north, in remote areas. It always has been difficult. Now, we could work with these professions, I hope that we can work with these professions. We might have to take some fairly drastic steps to get the people to service the north, but this is not something that a government could accomplish miracles and it's not just the responsibility of the government. The community has a role to play.

We'll finance the operation and we'll find out and if we can help we'll work together. We can't do it alone. We don't expect to do it alone.

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Sp eaker, one final supplementary, perhaps the Mini ster would like to take it as notic e and hope fully he'll ha ve some more information available by tommorow. Could he tell the House, when is the last time that the Standing Committee on Nursing Manpower met and reported to his office? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I don't have this information. - (I nterjection) - What's that? When he's on his feet he can't ask questions, but all of a sudden he's got to develop a style of asking questions. Mr. Chairman, I'll take that as notice and I'll try to get the information.

Purchase of buses from outside province MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the First Minis ter, and would ask him in light of the fact that members of the New Democratic Party joined with the Manitoba Federation of Labour to boycott McDonalds Hamburgers when they bought buns which were cheaper outside of the Province of Manitoba, in light of that boycotting by his members and the MFL, could the Minis ter inform the House whether he has received any correspondence or letters from either his members of caucus or from the federal members, who were boycotting McDonalds, with regards to the government buying buses for a cheaper price outside of the Province of Manitoba?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minis ter. Order please. Order please. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, when I went to school 20 percent was a failure. I would think likewise that question was a failure. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Sp eak er, in ligh t of the government members, and the government's posturing along with the MFL, to be bemoan the fact that private enterprise company bought a product outside of the Manitoba boundaries for less money, how does the Mini ster then justif y, in light of his party's objection to that company buying products cheaper out of Manitoba, how does he justif y, Mr. Speaker, the government then buying a commodity outside of the Province of Manitoba that is cheaper? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the tender respecting the buses was to the effect that we would have paid 20 or 21 percent more if ihe buses had been purchased from Superior Bus. Certainly, all things being equal we would have preferred to buy within the province, but not at additional cost of 20-21 percent to the taxpayers of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, what Manitobans, whether they be members of the Conservative Party, the Li beral Party, or the New Democratic Party, do by way of voluntarily 964 agreeing not to buy or to buy is certainly the discretion of Manitobans, Mr. Speaker.

It's not a - the Conservative Party might like to dictate what one boycotts and what one does not boycott - we are not going to dic tate SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't intend to try to shout to make myself heard. The honourable member wanted and answer to a question. I attempted to do that but I don't intend to shout to make myself heard. Mr. Speaker, the issue of whether one purchases McDona lds buns or not is a matter of personal discretion. It's a utilization of one's own private funds in respect to purchase. But, Mr.

Speaker, insofar as the bus company we make no apology for not subjecting Manitobans to a 21 percent preferential insofar as the purchase of buses in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions having expired, Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. POINT OF ORDER MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain on a point of prder. MR. B. RANSOM: On a point of order, Sir, yes.

I wish to put on the record that yesterday this House experienced an unprecedented 45 minute delay while we waited for the Mini ster of Agriculture to appear to deal with his Estimates. I wish to say that this sort of mismanagement of the House is unacceptable to the opposition. It's perhaps understandable that the Government House Leader does not consult with the opposition to the extent that he might but he should at least be consulting with his own Min isters so that when their Estimates are before this House, the Mi nister will be present at all times. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader to the same point. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, the Min ister of Agriculture is perfectly capable of speaking for himself and defending his position. It was clear that he was defending the position of all Manitobans in his capacity as Min ister of Agriculture and one regrets that he was delayed in reaching the House and we express that regret but it wasn't that he was spending his time frivolously. He was spending his time, as we all know, on one of the most important economic issues that this province has had to face in decades.

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 MR. B. RANSOM: On the same point of order, Sir. The Government House Leader is trying to say that we are indicating it was a frivolous matter that the Min ister of Agriculture is dealing with. Far from it. If the Min ister of Agriculture has reason to be out of the House on government busi ness all he need do, or the Government House Leader need do is come to myself and say that he has government busi ness to conduct and is there some other busine ss that the House can conduct in the meantime. That's the way the House can be run efficiently, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris to the same point. MR. C. MANNESS: Not to the same point, no. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the honourable member for bringing that to the House's attention and for the explanation given by the Honourable Government House Leader. HANSARD CORRECTION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I'd just like to record a correction in Hansard if I may. Page 922, the word access, spelled A-C-C-E-S-S; I wanted to use the spelling Axis, spelled A-X-1-S, Axis countries. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I might have leave of the House to make a non-political statement. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member have the leave of the House? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. NON-POLITICAL STA TEMENT MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that all members will join with me in extending sincere congratulations to my neighbour and a fellow cons tituent of th e Honoura ble Leader of the Op position, Lloyd Gunnlaugson, and his rink from Valour Road in their recent achievement of having won for Manitoba the Canadian Seniors Curling Championship this past weekend in Samia.

This is, of course, the second year in a row in which the Gunnlaugson rink has been victorious and they remain now the Canadian Seniors Champions. I'm sure that all of us, as Manitobans, take pride in their achievement. Thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Government House Leader. ADJOURNED DEBATE - INTERIM SUPPLY MOTION HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speak er, would you please call the proposed motion of the Minister of Finance on Page 965 3 standing adjourned for the second time in the name of the Member for Lakeside? MR.

SPEAKER: On the prop osed motion of the Honourable Min ister of Fin ance, the Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Stand. MR. SPEAKER: Stand. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I must, on a point of order, place on the record the fact th at I have communicated with the Opposition House Leader the fact that there is an urgency about this matter. This is Interim Supp ly, the end of the month falls on Good Friday. The pay cheques of employees must be mailed by the 28th of March.

We will go on calling this bill; we will not allow this kind of dilatory treating of a serious matter to go unnoticed by the people of Manitoba. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, this is the second time that the Mem ber for Lakeside has stood the matter and I'm raising this as a point of order and for the record. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain to the same point. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the Government House Leader has once again indicated he has absolutely no comprehension of how the House operates.

That motion need only be passed, as he says, by the 28th of March. The motion does not have to be debated at all to pass. It can be called and can be allowed to pass within moments, Sir. We are under no obligation to debate that motion. We have no intention of holding it up past the deadline as those members opposite did two years ago and prevented cheques from going out. So, the Government House Leader should learn how this House operates or the First Mini ster should remove him as House Leader. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Government House Leader to the same point. HON. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, I need no lessons in how to run the busi ness of the House from the "Turtle from Ransom Mountain." Mr. Speak er, it was open to the Opposition House Leader at any time. I discussed it with him to give me the assurance that he is now being compelled to give in this House. Now that he has done what he ought to have done, if he knew his busine ss, I would not have had to raise the matter at all. I thank him for his assurance that indeed the matter will - and I accept that as the point on record which I wanted - that the matter will be dealt with by March 28th. That's all I needed.

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour able Government House Leader on the next point. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Min ister of Finance that Mr. Sp eaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION pr esented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Su pply to be grante d to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Co operative Development. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CO-OPERATIVE DEVELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order. We are now considering the items on Co-operative Developm ent and we are going to begin with a statement from the Min ister. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It is my pleasure to intr oduce to the honourable members the Estimates of the Department of Co operative Development for the 1983-84 fiscal year. When my predecessor, the Honourable Pete Adam, introduced the current Estimates of the department, he empha sized the impor tanc e of co-operative enterprise to our society. I would like to take a moment or two, Mr. Chairman, to expand on his comments, to briefly review some of the accomplishments of the department over the past year, and to briefly highlight some of the plans for the 1983-84 fiscal year. Co-operative enterprise, Mr.

Chairman, is not an experiment; it is not a passing fancy; it is no longer something new and untried. Co-operative enterprise, Mr. Chairman, is a fact of life, and its contribution to the social and economic development of our society is not a matter of speculation, but a matter of record and historic fact. Co-operatives, Mr. Chairman, were created to meet local needs by local people. Over the years, co operatives have emerged through difficult, economic times. They struggled, they endured, but in the end, the y grew, and they prospered . They have, Mr.

Chairman, filled the need where that need was not being met, and they continue to fill that need to more than 9 million of our Canadians tod ay. I am sure the honourable members will agree with me, Mr. Chairman, that co-operatives, like any other form of busi ness enterprise, are not immune from the adverse effects of the economic conditions in our nation; the high interest or other adversities. It is important to note, however, that co-operatives, because of their community roots, do not pull up stakes and move somewhere else when the going gets tough. No, Mr. Chairman, they stay. They fight on.

They may reduce or reorganize their activities, they may expand, and in the end, their purpose in being and their resilience wins out. 966 They have, Mr. Chairman, passed that critical test, the test of time. This government, Mr. Chairman, has recognized that. It has recognized that co-operative enterprise is an important component of the social and economic mosaic of our society, an enterprise that responds to a very large segment of our population. This government, Mr. Chairman, recogn izes co operative enterprise as a system which is not imposed, but rather a system which is freely chosen by the people.

A syste m, the success of which, depends on the people who use and control it. This governmnet supports the co-operative sys tem. Part of this support is the services and assistance offered to the co-operative sector by the Department of Co-operative Development - support, Mr. Chairman, that these Estimates are designed to continue and to further develop. The department, Mr. Chairman, relates to the co operative enterprise in this province in two distinct areas, those being regulatory and developmental.

The objective of both of which is to create and maintain a climate that is conducive to the growth and stability of the co-operative enterprise in Manitoba. In its regulatory role, the department is responsible for the administration of the applicable legislation, as well as a periodic review of tha t legislati on.

Consequently, a Credit Union Law Review Committee is currently reviewing existing Credit Union Legislation to ensure that it meets the needs of the Credit Union Syste m, and to ensure that it meets the needs of the credit union system and to ensure that it appropriately reflects the roles and responsibilities of both the system and the government. During the current year, in its regulatory role, the department has developed a new program of monitoring and exam inin g credit uni ons and their central organizations.

This program has been successfully tested in several credit unions with encoura ging preliminary results. This, Mr. Chairman, together with the financial assistance already provided, will further enhance the process of recovery and the achievement of stability for the credit union system - a system which should be, in a very few years, second to none. In its developmental role, the department assists the people of Ma nitob a to develop new co-operative ventures in all fields of endeavour. Very often, Mr.

Chairman, one is tempted to think of a co-operative as a typical consumer store, common to many of our cities and town. That thought, Mr. Chairman, that impression, is totally inconsistent with the range of developmental activity engaged in by the department. Should that impression, however, exist, I'm very pleased to be able to dispel it.

The range of developmental activity successfully carried out by the department involves a broad spectrum - a spectrum which includes man ufac turing, agricultur e, comme rcial fisheries, consumer stores, day care, communication, recreation, workers' co-operatives, housing, utility and energy distribution co-operatives, to name but a few. Many of the new development projects which have been assisted by the department are not only new dev elopments , but developments tha t are both innovative and in some instances, first of a kind. A good example of this, Mr.

Chairman, is the recently incorporated Prairie Housing Co-operative. It is a housing co-operative specifically designed to accept a number of members who are physically or mentally

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 handicapped, and to thus integrate them into the mainstream of our society. To the best of my knowledge, this type of co-operative is a first of its kind in North America and interest in this concept is being expressed elsewhere. Another type of co-operative which I must admit is not new elsewhere, but which is certainly new to Mani toba, is the uti lity co-operative. A utility co operative, Mr. Chairman, that provides sewage disposal or water distribution services.

As the honourable members know, many of our rural municipalities have a large number of small towns and hamlets with insufficient tax base to provide these services; services which in urban centres are taken for granted. I am again pleased to inform the honourable members that a numb er of such co-operatives have been incorporated to provide these essential services to the towns and hamlets in our province. These developments, Mr. Chairman, translate themselves into establishment of new business enterprise in Manitoba. They translate int o inv est ment of capital and job creation.

They create the multi plier effect in our economy. At the present time, some thirty new development projects are in various stages of progression; projects which when completed will signif icantly contribute to the economic and social wellbeing of Manitoba and its people. In fact, Mr. Chairman, in the current fiscal year alone, more new dev elopments have been assisted and undertaken by the department than perhaps in any of the other previous years. Involvement and assistance with new developments is not the only function, however.

The department provides a wide range of consultative and management supp ort services to a numb er of establ ished co operatives who may find themselves in difficu lty, or who by reason of their geographic location cannot obtain these services elsewhere. The Co-operative Commercial Fisheries will serve as one example, and I'm again pleased to report that for the co-operatives' fiscal year ends in 1982, all our fishing co-operatives reported positive operating incomes. I would like to now talk briefly about what my department is planning for the '83-84 fiscal year. The department will, Mr.

Chairman, over the next few months, be conducting a series of meetings throughout the province with the various co-operatives groups, both management and elected officials. These meetings will be designed to inform the co-operative sector of the services offered by the department and to discuss with them how the department may further support co operatives and credit unions in the province.

With the input gained through these discussions, the department will do a thorough review of all the services offered to the co-operative and credit union system in the province to ascertain how we could better serve this very important part of our economy. It is also my hope that the department will become, over the next year , a conduit through which co operatives and credit unions can, on a more equal footing with other sectors in the economy, participa te in a development of this government's policies and programs.

By saying this, I do not mean that this government will necessarily be favouring or giving special status to co-operatives, but merely ensuring 967 that they have equal access to the government and its programs. The department's regulatory

section hopes to finalize, with the assistance of a Legislative Review Committee, the review of credit union legislation in the province and, if possible and required, amending legislation will be placed before the Legislature. In addition, the Monitoring and Examination Program for credit unions will be fully implemented throughout the province. It is hoped that through this program, over the next year, the department can further develop a strong working relationship with the credit union system which will not only assist the system to grow and prosper during the '83-84 fiscal year, but into the future as well.

In the ensuing year, Mr. Chairman, the department will continue to pursue vigorously all opportunities that contri but e to the development of co-operative enterprise in Manitoba. It will continue to assist our citizens to pursue and develop new and innovative ventures wherever in this province the need for such ventures may exist. Mr. Chairman, these are but a few of the highlights of the department's activities for which the resources contained in the '83-84 Estimates are requested. In closing, Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to take this opportunity to express my sincere appreciation and thanks to the staff of the department for their dedication, their loyalty and their support. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair now invites the rendering of the customary reply from the opposition critic - the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Department of Co-op Development, which came into being several administrations ago, has been recognized by a success of governments as being one which was established to deal with the whole field of co-operative development, the credit union movement, the federated consumer co-ops, and all the fishing co-ops throughout the Province of Manitoba. In recognizing that a special department was required for this, I believe all governments realize the tremendous role that the credit union movement and the co-op movement play within our provincial economy.

Having said that, I would, as a former Min ister, like to say to the present Mi nister that I believe that he has quite a job cut out for him over the next couple of years. There have been several large problems develop in the past number of years, partly because of the economy, partly because of the changing structure of the whole co-op movement. This Min ister right now is responsible for the $29.5 million that the credit unions have on loan. He is responsible for the problems at CCIL and the many millions of dollars that the province and the Federal Government has involved in that.

He is responsible for the problems dealing with the consumer co-ops. The latest one that we have all been following very closely is the Red River Co-op, the closing of a number of branches, the employees seeing the problem in that particular company, ready to take a 10 percent wage cut just to keep that company going; the problem of trying to deal with some of the credit unions which will either have to be rationalized as far as the number of

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 branch offices are concerned or will have to be wound down in one form or another. So I say to the Mini ster that when dealing with his Cabinet colleagues, I hope he will be forceful enough to make sure, in dealing with this, that when the matter comes to a head, whichever problem area pops up first. that he will be able to deal with it in such a manner that not only the taxpayers of Manitoba are best served, but that the co-op movement is best served.

That very often might be a tough decision to make, but I think one of the problems we've had in the co-op system over the last number of years is that, rather than adhering to the basic philosophy of co-ops - that's a group of people helping themselves, the self-help spirit that has really created the co-op system in this country and in this province - all too often we have now seen where the bureaucracy within that particular group got so big that the members themselves lost control of their particular co-operative.

We have some examples in that right now and I will be dealing with a company like CCIL in the very near future. CCIL is no longer owned by the people. It's owned by government. It is a Crown corporation and I think if you look at the share structure and who is running it, that's what's happened.

So I say to the Mini ster that, while we all agree, all parties in the Legislature which is basically I guess two right now, that the co-op movement is a very integral part of the provincial scene and the provincial economy providing many jobs and providing an avenue for people to help the mselves, there are some decisions that will have to be made which will, in the short run, probably look as though they are not helping the co-operative movement.

But, if truly we believe that people can go ahead and form their own groups and determine their own destiny , then we have to be very careful that these things don't get into the hands of what I would call bureaucrats who then run away with the thing and really don't have the input from the average person that originally envisioned the co-operative.

We've seen with things like the consumer co-operatives, with Red River, if there is not conviction of the individual, of the consumer, to buy at that co-operative, if it is strictly a matter of price, then stores, for instance, in the city here like Sup er Valu and Safeway, are going to take over. If the people are not convinced that the co-op system is going to, in the long run, help them to a better self determination, no amount of government help, no amount of propping up will make that enterprise viable because the people have to be involved and have to have the courage of their convictions themselves.

So I say to the Min ister that I app reciate some of the challenges that are before him are fairly substantial. When one looks at the numb er of people involved in the co-op movement right across Manitoba, I believe the last figure was something like over 350,000 people are members of the co-op syste m, or the credit union system which means that almost every other Manitoban, one out of two, is touc hed by the credit un ion movement. It's a big movement, but there is going to have to be rationalization there and there's going to have to be some tough steps taken.

And I would encourage the Mi nister to make sure that he, with his staff, makes those decisions based on the long run, based on the long haul rather than on the short term, what seems to be expedient at that time. 968 So I believe the challenge to this Min ister in the '80s is one of, on the one hand, trying to promote the smaller co-operatives that he just mentioned on a smaller scale.

But one of the bigge st problems he's going to have is to try and stabilize the existing system, and to rationalize it so that the co-op movement truly is the movement of the people and not the movement of government or the bureaucrac� Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: At this point in time the Chair wishes to invite the members of the adminis trative staff of the Department of Co-Operative Development. Deferring debate on the Item, Min ister's Salary until the debate on all other items is concluded, we shall begin by considering Budget Item No. 1.(b)(1). MR. R.

BANMAN: I wonder if we could have a little guidance here. Since there are not very many lines in this department and since we don't want to get into a procedural hassle with regards to a number of the different areas of concern. The Co-op Implements, the credit union loan and that, I wonder if I could just ask the Minister if we would deal with that under the Interest Forgiveness section, if that would be the proper place to deal with that? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minis ter. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, that's where it is found. MR. R.

BANMAN: Well, I guess the first question that has to asked is, what's happened with regards to the Mi nister's Salary? We've gone from 10.3 to 9.8. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are not discussing . MR. R. BANMAN: Okay, we'll deal with it at the end, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll deal with it when all other items have been covered. MR. R. BANMAN: I just don't want to have that being a reflect ion on this Min ister . It's an im portant department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman, first of all, under the Departmental Administration: Salaries and that, the increase, is that basically due to the GIS? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The salary increases are a result of four factors: No. 1, there is a negotiated agreement; No. 2, the 27th pay period; No. 3, the difference that we will note there of about $14,000 is also a reflection of a shortfall in revenue in allocation from the Department of Finance the previous year; and there is a fourth factor, being the merit increases and incomes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b)(1)-p ass; 1.(b)(2)- pass; 2.(a)(1) - the Member for La Verendrye.

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 MR. R. BANMAN: I wonder if the Min ister could inform us under the Development Services with regard to basically credit unions, does he envision, in the next numb er of years, the number of credit union facilities and I'm talking now of branch offices and that? In other words, will we have a fewer numb er of credit unions in the next two or three years than we do currently? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, it's quite conceivable and probably fairly probable that there will be a decrease, a minim al decrease, in a number of credit union locations in the province.

That was, I believe, communicated to us by Central itself, when they had applied for the assistance some year and a half ago or two years ago. MR. R. BANMAN: So the Minis ter would then agree that the success of his department will not basically depend on the numb er of increased co-operative credit union facilities, or numb er of new credit union offices that will be open? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The measure of success of the credit union movement certainly will not be reflected in a number of credit unions, but rather in the stability within the system and the profitability of the existing credit unions. MR. R.

BANMAN: Well, I'm glad to hear that, Mr. Chairman, because for so many years there has been a feeling that ii there aren't another 10 new credit unions opened within the province that the Department of Co operative Development isn't doing its job. I think if one goes back to Hansard, only a few years, I think you'll find the former Mi nister was chastised at great length for not having opened more co-operatives and therefore was tagged as being a dismal failure in that position.

But I'm glad to see this Mini ster now realizes that there is a job to be done and that num bers won't necessarily mean that the department is or is not doing its job. With regard to the development within the fishing co-operatives, are there any new fishing co-operatives that are on the horizons as far as being formed in Manitoba? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I believe there is one that is in the development stage at this time at Lake St. Martin - Koostatak. MR. R.

BANMAN: The Mini ster also mentioned that the fishing co-operatives were all showing a fairly healthy position and I gu ess have done that now for the last couple of years. I wonder if the Min ister could provide us of sort of a break out of what has happened in the last couple of years with regard to that. He could do it maybe after the committee. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: With respect to the fishing co-ops, I'm pleased to report that the net income for the past year was approaching a third of a million dollars which is, I would imagine it would be, an all-time high.

Assets are increasing considerably; the fishing co-ops appear to be very successfu l. MR. R. BANMAN: With regard to the number of people in the field that are currently involved in the promotion 969 of co-operatives and endeavours such as housing co operatives, has the number of people involved in the Co-op Development

section increased? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The numb er has been constant; I believe it is presently 18 staff. MR. R. BANMAN: Has the government provided increased assistance to non-profit and housing co operatives higher than, let's say, was being practised a year or two ago? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I'm sorry, I missed the first part of that question. MR. R. BANMAN: Since there are no more people inv olved in the Devel opment Branch, ha s the government initiated any new action with regard to co operative housing or increased assistance to non-profit groups who want to build, or are the people that are deployed in that particular

section doing very much the same that they were doing over the last two or three years? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: In response to that question, the type of assistance tha t is provided by the department is not financial but developmental. At the present time, the department is involved in assisting about half a dozen housing co-ops. MR. R. BANMAN: Could the Min ister confirm that this isn't anything new, that has been going on for the last seven, eight years? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Basically, it is carrying on with the previous tradition. MR. R.

BANMAN: So, if I understand correctly, there have been no new commitments as far as grants or additional assistance to the housing co-operatives within the department? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: There have been no new grants, but I am informed that in fact perhaps there is a little more emphasis on housing in the absence of CHAM. MR. R. BANMAN: That was the particular group that was doing the promotion, I understand? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: That's correct. MR. R. BANMAN: So the Mi nister is saying that organization is wound down and there are no grants which are now being paid out to that particular body? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: There are no grants being paid out of the Depar tment of Co-op erative Development to any body. MR. R. BANMAN: And none to any housing co operative groups who are promoting or would be promoting co-op housing? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Not by the Department of Co-operative Development.

Tuesday, 22 Marett, 1983 MR. R. BANMAN: The other question that I would have is, have there been any applications by housing co operatives dealing with the High Im pact Grant? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I am informed that there are no applications on hand at the present time. MR. R. BANMAN: Ju st an observt ion then, Mr.

Chairman, I would say that with no increase in staff and no additional grants going out to any housing co operatives or any housing co-operative operations that I would gather from the Minis ter's comments that the department is trying to carry on the way it has for the last number of years in trying to establish co-operatives, and that is, to deal with people who upon request or upon requiring information, the department would then go out and give them assistance either in the form of materials or other in the form of helping them establish that was carried on for a numb er of years in the past. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Essentially, that is correct. If the Member for La Verendrye would refer to the speech, I had mentioned that we will be meeting with various groups throughout the coming year and where we would hope to gain from these meetings is to whether or not there is a better way of dealing with the needs of the co-operative movement. MR. R. BANMAN: Was the department involved at all with the decisions by the consumer co-operative, Red River Co-op, in rationalizing their operation? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, our department was made aware of the intentions of the Board of Directors of Red River Co-op after the decision had been made and approximately one week before any action was taken in closing down or announcing the closing of the various locations of Red River Co-op. MR. R. BANMAN: So as far as people from the department going in, looking at the situation, you weren't asked by Red River or you didn't have anybody that was directly involved in advising them or involved in the actual decision-making process. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: No one from the department was inv olved in the dec ision-making process but certainly, after the announcement was made, staff from the department did respond to inquiries for assistance from the local membership and a considerable number of meetings were held in Teulon, Stonewall, I believe Oakbank, St. Norbert. There were some approaches made to see if there would be any way of salvaging some of the operation. Regretfully, nothing positive developed. MR. R. BANMAN: How widespread is the economic problem, the squeeze, on the consumer co-operatives throughout the province?

In other words, are we seeing something happen here which is isolated to Red River or are we going to be seeing difficulty in the consumer co-operatives right across the province? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: It would be difficult to give an overall assessment, but I would maintain that the 970 economic difficulties that the consumer co-ops are going through are probably no more nor no less than the private sector. We are aware of various co-ops around the province having to take some steps in rationalizing their operations, perhaps cutting out a department or so, in an effort to make their co-op more viable. MR. R.

BANMAN: Does the Min ister feel that there will be other co-operatives who will be asking their employees to hold the line or take a cut in wages to keep them open? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: That is something that is entirely within the jurisdiction of the local co-op and I have no information to that effect from any co-op. MR. R. BANMAN: Has the government been asked by any consumer co-operatives in the province for financial assistance to help bail them out of any difficulty that they might be having? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: There ha ve been no approaches to government that I am aware of from any co-op for financial assistance. MR. R. BANMAN: In dealing with the credit union side of the equation, has the government, through this particular department or this particular branch, been dealing with the credit union system with regards to the rationalization of the number of branches that are currently open and the number of credit unions that might have to be closed because of them not being viable in their particular area? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: The examination program that I referred to previously will certainly identify some of the problem areas. The decision as to the branches that ought to be closed down is primarily a responsibility of the Stabilization Fund, who in concert with the central will be revi ewi ng the situa tion and making the appropriate decisions. MR. R. BANMAN: Has the government developed any new public awareness programs, other than the one in which I guess they're going to be going out to the different co-operatives and talking to them, than existed in the past?

In other words, are th ere any new promotional ideas that the department has other than pamp hlets and that type of thing? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Not at this time. MR. R. BANMAN: I wonder if the Min ister can tell the commit tee how many co-operativ es received their charter in 1982? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: From April 1, 1982, to the present time, I am informed that 15 co-operatives have received a charter. MR. R. BANMAN: A num ber of years ago, the Thompson Credit Union, The Pas Credit Union and a numb er of the smaller credit un ions that ha d amalgamated with Thompson closed their doors. Has

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 their been any action in any of th ose northern communities by concerned individuals with regards to reviving the co-op system in some of those northern communities? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Our department has not received any formal requests of that nature. MR. R. BANMAN: About a year ago, Mr. Mitchell from Saskatchewan was hired on a contract. I wonder if the Mini ster could tell us how much that contract was for, what the particular individual did and whether or not the study that he produced will be available to the members of the Legislature? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: The Memb er for La Verendrye is quite correct. Mr. Grant Mitchell was hired by the Provincial Government to provide advice and assistance to the Min ister on the credit union system and co-operative development. His payments to the end of February, 1983, amounted to $24, 151.42. That would have been from about December of 1981 to February 28, 1983. Maybe if I could just continue on with that, part of his responsibilities were in reviewing the Scarth Report, I believe. He has also provided me with a review of the operations of the department. MR. R.

BANMAN: Is this particular individual still working for the government? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: That's right. Mr. Mitchell has been asked to assist me over a period of two days to review the report on the opera tions of the department. MR. R. BANMAN: Is this individual now working for the stab fund? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The individual, Mr. Grant Mitchell, is a member of this stab fund appoi nted by Order-in-Council. MR. R. BANMAN: So he would be the Minis ter's appointment on the stab fund, is that correct? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: He would be one of the Mi nister's appointments on the stab fund. MR. R.

BANMAN: Does he receive any remuneration for that? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, by Order-in-Council he receives the same renumeration as the other board members, and I believe that's $3,240 per annum, plus expenses. MR. R. BANMAN: Did this particular individual provide a report to the department as to the assistance that was sup posed to be provided to the credit union movement and the different recommendations of the Scarth Report? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes. MR. R. BANMAN: Is his report available to members of the Legislature? 971 HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, the report was to the Mi nis ter and it's not available to the Legis lative Assemb ly. In the same manner that the Scarth Report was not available to the Assembly. MR. R. BANMAN: Could the Min ister tell us what, you 've mentio ned before th at th ere was no new promotion going on in the Department of Co-operative Development. Has he had any talks with the co-op officials from the Co-op College with regards to the co-op curriculum program? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: I have not personally had any discussions with members of the Co-op College although I'm aware that there has been some indication of supp ort for this program through the Co-op Promotion Board. MR. R. BANMAN: I wonder if the Mini ster could give us an update as to what is happening with the different publications and different copyrights that the Province of Manitoba sold to the Co-op College. In other words, could he give us an update as to what has happened with the Co-op Curriculum Program? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Well, I could go to some length on this.

As the member knows, the co-op curriculum materials were sold to Co-op College by the Province of Manitoba in 1979. The college has, since that time, revised and issued for sale the Co operation of the Community Life book at a cost of $30 a book. It's in the process of releasing the secondary material book for April 1, 1983 at a cost of $30 a book as well. MR. R. BANMAN: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the Min ister could inform the committee whether or not there was a reg ional Co-op College Commi ttee established in Manitoba for the purpose of introducing the material to Manitoba schools? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, there is a Manitoba Regional Council of the Co-op College of Canada, and it was established to present these materials to school divisions through the office of the school superintendent. Presently the Department of Co-opera tive Development is involved only in an observer role and a representative of the department attends the regional council meetings. MR. R.

BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could confirm that this council has several times tried to get the Mini ster of Education to include this material in the curriculum and so far the Minis ter of Education has resisted any attempts to have this particular information be made part of the curriculum? HON. J. BUCK LASCHUK: Yes, I'm inf ormed that meetings are to be held within the next month or two between staff from our department and from the Department of Education on this subject. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I notice in the Annual Report of the Co-op Loans and Guarantee Board that the Northern Co-operative Services seems to be doing

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 very well with regard to - the purc hases are requiring what it looks like less guarantees from the province. I wonder if the Mini ster could tell us how many fishing co-operatives were involved in purchasing from the Northern Co-op Services, and how many members would probably be involved in those different co operatives that are purchasing from the joint Northern Co-op Services? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, there are 12 fishing co-ops that are memb ers of the Northern Co-op Services Limited and they would serve approximately 700 commercial fishermen. MR. R.

BANMAN: Did this service break even last year or did it lose money? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I regret I don't have the financial statement here. I'll take that question as notice and provide you with the information as soon as I have it. MR. R. BANMAN: Well, I wonder, if the Mini ster is checking, I wonder if he would, when looking at that particular statement, find out roughly how many man hours, or SMYs, from his department are involved in that particular organization and whether or not he feels that the results he has achieved over the last number of years justify the existence of that.

I think there's two schools of thought with regards to that. I think that when you're talking about large pu rchases of fishing nets and that of course, it's been of benefit to the fisherman, but I think from time to time one has to review these things and I'd like to have some more information with regard to that. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I'd like to just refer back to my previous commitment. I just realized and was informed that Northern Co-op Services is in fact a private co-op and it wouldn't be appropriate for me to deal with its profit or loss situation.

I had no hesitation in giving the overall profit situation for the fishing co-ops because they weren't identified but here we're dealing with a specific co-op and I don't feel it would be quite pro per. MR. R. BANMAN: I just ask the Min ister, who is picking up the losses then? In other words if there is a deficit position is that spread equally among the people that have pu rchased there? Will they have to charge more next year for their commodities or how will that be handled?

And I ask this question knowing full well that the department is fairly heavily involved in this through the donation of manpower to the operation. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, in answer to the question, what happens if there is a loss in the co operative? - the loss would be taken out of the positive equity that the co-op enjoys. Well, I should first of all state that there is an independent board for this co operative. The department's involvement is in the provision of management services. MR. R. BANMAN: I don't know if this next question should come under the next

section but, as I mentioned 972 before, since it's such a small department, maybe we can deal with it all at once and then we don't have to come back to it. I belie ve somewhere in 1980 a formal Security Program was established within the department to ensure that the majority of co-ops properly comply with the regulations when issu ing securities. This was something new. Could the Min ister give us a status report as to how that is progressing? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, for '81-82 there were 15 offering statements received, of which six were approved.

There was one statement of change in fact received - that was app roved. There were th ree exemption orders received - two were approved. MR. R. BANMAN: What is the Minister's and the government's position with regard to emerging of credit unions that will be taking place over the next litte while? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Our objective is to assist in the credit unions being profitable, stable enterprises, and the responsibility for the merging or the decisi ons leading to merging rest with the Stabilization Fund. MR. R.

BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could confirm that the Registrar that he appoints is the final person that can either allow the mergers or not allow the mergers, and that maybe he could tell us what kind of information the Registrar is looking at when it comes to allowing a merger or not allowing a merger to go ahead. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Where the merger is being considered, the Registrar will app rove that, providing it complies with existing legislation. MR. R. BANMAN: Are there any mergers that are being recommended by the department? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, the request for a merger has to be app roved by the membership. This, in turn, is forwarded to the Stabilization Fund who, in turn, informs the Registrar, so the whole process is a little more complex than simply the Registrar making that decision. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that. We went through that when we were involved in the closing of several co-operatives in Northern Manitoba.

But knowing that there has to be finally some impetus provided by the department to initiate some action, I wonder if the Mini ster could inform us whether he feels that type of impetus will be necessary - for a lack of better words - over the next year or two, to try and rationalize some of the problems that the credit union system now faces in some of the branch operations. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I previously referred to the examination program that has been initiated. This program will examine the whole operation of the credit union in question.

The examiner's concerns will be reflected in a report to the Stabilization Fund and to the board. The decision could therefore by made by the board at the local level, or it could be made by the Stabilization Fund, as the supervisor.

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 MR. R. BANMAN: Is the Min ister 's department monitoring that fairly closely? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, the department is the body that carries out the examinations. We have an observer at the Central Board level; we also have an observer at the Stabilization Fund level. MR. R. BANMAN: When the research and planning

section was established, it was I believe funded jointly, or it had responsibilities with regard to the Department of Fitne ss, Recreat ion and Sp ort. Does that arrangement still hold true? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The situation has remained unchanged. MR. R. BAN llllAN: So the research and planning

section is still providing that service to the Fitness people. Is that money coming from this particular department? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I'm informed that is all paid by the Fitness and Recreation. MR. R. BANMAN: If the research and planning is paid for by Fitness and Recreation, how about - the other side of the equation was the administrative body? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The same situation applies. MR. R. BANMAN: Their salaries are coming from the Department of Fitness, Recreation and Sport also? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: That is correct. MR. R. BANMAN: Total salaries? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes. MR. R.

BANMAN: In light of the difficulties being faced by the credit union movement, is the Minister monitoring the loaning activities of Central and of some of the credit unions that are in a deficit position? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, the monitoring of those credit unions that are experiencing difficulties is done through our observer on the Stabilization Fund Board. With respect to loans, there is a loan committee at the central level to which all credit unions apply for approval of their loans su bject to certain criteria. MR. R.

BANMAN: Is the Min ister saying that some of the credit unions that are facing fairly large deficits would have to have a loan, let's say, a commercial loan that exceeds $50,000 okayed by the Central? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes. MR. R. BANMAN: We've had before us in th e Legislature, the last several days, a problem facing a certain bus manufacturer in Morris. I wonder if the Mi nister could inform the committee whether or not the credit unions' exposure on that one is fairly large. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: That is entirely a problem or a matter which the credit unions would have to reply 973 to.

We, as a department, would not take a position of getting into details of a private financial arrangement. MR. R. BANMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the Minis ter's remarks, but I would also point out to him that we were asked to vote $29.5 million last year to help the credit union movement, and the people of Manitoba have a pretty significant stake not only in tax dollars, but also in the continued operation of that facility.

I would just ask the Min ister to confirm that one of the creditors that is a major creditor in the Superior Bus stake is the credit union system, which means that if there are any major losses that are going to happen out there, it's going to affect the position of the Manitoba Government with regard to the recovery of that particular credit union. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The method by which the province has chosen to protect its interests in the investment in the Credit Unions and Caisses Populaires system is through the examination and monitoring program.

It will serve no one's interest by getting into details of particular busi ness transactions. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, if we are to sit in the Legislature and vote large sums of money to a particular body, there are certain questions that are going to have to be answered from time to time and I gu ess my question to the Min ister is to what extent does he or his department monitor some of these larger loans that either Central or a number of the co-operatives are given? I just want to use this an an example.

Here's a man ufactu ring busi ness that started off, and I understand has a fairly large loan from the Central as well as several of the smaller credit unions, and the failure of that company could cause severe problems for not only the credit unions but could cause problems at Central with regard to the recovery that they are putting forward. So all I'm asking, without asking the Min ister for any figures on that is how does his department deal with this type of loan with the obs ervers that he has? Is that brought to his attention?

Is the department involved and saying, hold it, we don't think this is a good risk, or are they just sitting there monitoring it and then letting the movement, the credit union sys tem, make the loans themselves, or is there any input from his staff or from himself with regard to some of these major moves? Because I would imagine, Mr. Chairman, if the Mini ster is at all concerned about this situation, he will have to be on top of it, and when we're starting to talk about large loans tha t the department should be watching it because the exposure of everybody on this thing, including the taxpayer, is involved.

HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Well, I think the member raises a valid concern, but I would like to inform the member that we have initiated an examination of Centrals as well, and included in the examination will be an examination of the loan portfolios. So in fact we are doing, I would think, a fairly thorough review of the operations of credit uni ons and Centrals, and maintaining an observer status on the board. MR. R. BANMAN: On any large loan that the Central or the credit unions is making, and I'm talking within

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 the million-dollar ranges, has the government got a system whereby it satisfies itself that the securities and that the assets are well protected? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: As part of the examination program, we have to satisfy ourselves that they are taking the necessary precautions. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the reason I'm saying this, and it's well acknowledged in the whole credit union movement, is that the credit unions that have been basically involved in dealing with individuals, with small farm loans, with car loans, with mortgages on houses, these credit unions have not found themselves in the difficulty that we find ourselves right now. The ones that have got involved i.e., the Dauphin one, it mainly is one thing. It was that plastic thing that just pulled him right down. Portage la Prairie had a couple of big ones.

You have had a numb er of credit unions who have not had the expertise in dealing with these large commercial loans that have really caused the problem we find ourselves in right now. The reason I'm asking these questions is that I would hate to see us get further down. I think the key to recovery for the credit union system is to watch these large commercial loans very carefully, and I say to the Mini ster that I believe that is the area, if he wants to concentrate on something and watch and monitor the whole co-op sys tem, that is the one we should be watching very carefully, those large commercial loans.

The managers locally can handle the hous e mortgages and the vacation loans and the student loans and things like that. People pay those back, but what's happened is that large enterprises - credit unions have been taken by, whether it be a local enterprise or something, but when you're talking about .5 million, $1 million, $2 million, most of these small credit unions can't handle that when that company happens to default or go broke.

So I would urge the Min ister that if he does not have that in place, which I understand - I don't know, maybe he does, but that somebody in the department should be making sure that if you're looking at large loans, every avenue be checked out and make sure that it's a viable loan, well-secured loan, because that's the area that got the credit union system into the problem in the first place. I think if there are checks and balances in place, as the Min ister has said, that every loan over $50,000 in some of these deficit credit unions has to come to central for their approval.

I hope that central is scrutinizing and watching those loans very carefully. I just say to the Minister, I don't think there is anything wrong if he has an obs erver on the department. If we, as the taxpayer, have got $29.5 million in that particular syste m, forgiving any int erest on that particular loan, I think it's up to the Min ister, maybe not through Development Services, but through the Regulation Branch to be on top of the whole thing and make sure that we don't get ourselves into any further difficulty and that we can speed the recovery of the whole credit union movement. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Again, the member has raised valid concerns and I believe these are being addressed. As I had indicated before, there is a loan committee at the central level to which all credit unions 974 apply for approval for major loans. This, I understand, came about as a result of The Credit Union Act effective November 1, 1979. On this loan committee, central has personnel with expertise in the loan areas and I am qui te confident that central is moving ahead in developing expertise and attracting those persons that have that expertise.

I should also indicate that there is a member of the stabilization fund as a member of the loan committee. The examination program that the province carries out monitors the activities of that committee. So there are, in fact, a number of ways in which loan applications are reviewed and the activities of the loan committee are also reviewed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just to follow that up, I wonder if the Minister could give the committee some indication of who is on the committee that will be monitoring or scrutinizing the loans over $50,000, so that we may have some idea of their expertise in that field? Could he give us the background of some of the experts that will be financial analysts or whatever they may be? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I don't have the names of the persons that are involved. I should maybe clarify something first of all. The 50,000 figure that was referred to would apply to normal busin ess loans.

I understand there is a floor of $250,000 on agricultural loans. The staff that are on the committee would be from central - and I mentioned before a member of the stabilization fund. I should have sa id, senior staff from the stabilization fund. MR. D. BLAKE: Is there someone from the department, Mr. Chairman, that sits on that committee? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: There is no one that I am aware of from the department. The stabilization fund though is responsible to the Min ister, so that would be the Provincial Government's involvement. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr.

Chairman, on the loans in excess of $250,000, agricultural loans, does the credit union movement have people from the agricultural field, such as the financial institutions have, agricultural graduates or people specializing in agricultural economics, to study profit and loss figures, and what type of information do they require the borrower to submit in order that they can assess his case? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: My understanding is that the central does have on its staff well qualified people in the field of agricultural economics. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr.

Chairman, could the Mini ster tell us what gu arantee is there provided to the depositor by the credit union movement or by the stabilization fund for deposit funds? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Under The Credit Union Act, the stabilization fund guarantees that there will be adequate funds on hand to insure that investors are

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 able to withdraw their deposits. The funding is done through a levy from the individual credit unions and through borrowing. The government gua rantees the stabilization fund, that it will have adequate funds to meet its needs. MR. D. BLAKE: I'm just not quite clear on that, Mr. Chairman. Are there adequate funds now available in the stabilization fund to gua rantee the depositors?

Is there a limit that the deposits are gua ranteed for, because I know the credit union movement is not a member of the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation, but are there adequate funds on hand to gua rantee the depositors their funds now? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: As the member is aware, the Provincial Government has loaned $29.5 million to the stabilization fund and to the Fonde de Securite to insure that there were adequate funds within the funds. With respect to the limit, there is no limit stated in The Credit Union Act. MR.

CH AIRMAN: The time being 4:30 p.m., I'm interrupting the proceedings for Private Members' Hour. The committee will reconvene at 8:00 p.m. this evening. SUPPLY - AGRIC ULTURE MR. CH AIRMAN, P. Eyler: Order please. We are considering the Estima tes of the Department of Agriculture, Item 1.(

h) Canada-Manitoba Waterfowl Damage Compensation Agreement. The Mem ber for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Mi nister could give us a breakdown of the amounts paid out for crop damage under the various categories: waterfowl, big game and bears, for example. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minis ter. HON. B. URUSKI: For the in formation of the Honourable Member for Minnedosa, this provision deals strictly with the Waterfowl Damage Agreement, it has nothing to do with the big game, it's strictly waterfowl.

In the 1982 crop year, there were a total of 126 claims totalling $143,400 at the $50 an acre level, and there were 11 claims totalling $50, 100 dealing with Marshy Point and Oak Hammock where those claims covered the total crop for a total of $193,5 00.00. The provincial portion of tha t cost is $121, 800 and the federal proportion is $71,7 00 in terms of the program. That was for 1982 as I understand it. MR. D. BLAKE: There were 126 claims I believe the Mini ster said, and this was paid at $50 an acre, the amount reimbursed to the farmers? HON. B.

URUSKI: Those under that program with a maximum of $50 an acre are being made available. The total number of claims is 137, totalling $193,500.00. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, would the farmer be compensated by way of crop insu rance in addition to 975 this, or would this be the total reimbursement he would get for his crop loss? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, this would be in addition to any crop insu rance that the farmer would have. MR. D. BLAKE: Where would we find compensation paid for wildli fe damage, in Natural Resources Estimates? HON. B. URUSKI: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the damages dealing with claims for big game animals and the like would be in the Natural Resources Estimates. MR. D. BLAKE: I wonder if the Min ister could indicate to the House if the farmers that were compensated for crop loss, if they were well satisfied or is there any possibility of increasing the payments for depredation by migrating waterfowl? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, that is in my mind, particularly, one of the major issues of the problems that we have in terms that the level of compensation under this program being a maximum amount, but it is a negotiated federal-provincial program.

I've made suggestions that we look at the possibility of, if there are no greater limits that can be expanded beyond the $50, that there may be an alternative to the $50 an acre using the provision whereby the damage be calculated on the basis of actual loss up to the $50 an acre loss, rather than using 100 percent loss equalling $50 an acre.

Now, there are dollar implications to that and if at least we can't raise the limit beyond the $50 an acre, maybe we can look at some alternatives there and that's some of the issues that we're discussing now with the Federal Government in terms of future renegotiations of the program. But I should point out to the honourable member that we are going now, I believe, on a year-to-year basis in terms of the program. We have not been able to get an agreement to at least the five-year time limit that we had previously in terms of these kinds of agreements. We are now going from year to year.

It may have some advantages, but it also has some concerns as to what level future funding will be in place. But that's the process we are undergoing now in negotiating, as to where we go from here. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, would there be any amount in these damages that were paid out that were crops obviously damaged to such an extent that they were purchased and used as lure crop with some reimbursement from other departments that purchase lure crops? HON. B. URUSKI: That does happen, but it would not be out of this Budget, Mr. Chairman, that would be purchased by Natural Resources. That does happen. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to speak, if I may, just about the Central Plains Special Crops Project that is going on in the Portage area.

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 They have just completed their second year of a four year contract and I'm wondering if the Mi nister would wish to speak on that particular project at this time. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, tha t would be discussed adequately under the Agro-Man Project. That's an Agro-Man Project and could be discussed in our Estimates when we reach the Federal-Provincial Agreement under Agro-Man. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the crop damage calculation of damage, the crop insurance inspectors do the inspecting.

The adjusters go out and do the inspection. I ran into a situation last fall that I'd like the Mini ster to take under advisement, where a farmer moved into a field, it was about a 90-acre field, he had combines to help him and it was at about 8:30 or 9:00 at night. The ducks had been in there for several days and had done considerable damage. They figured that one feeding, morning and evening in other words leaving the field till it could have been inspected the next day, there would have been substantially more damage.

So they took the field off, but while they took it off - A and M Soil Service offers a yield test by which they will take a measured length of swath and do a weighed check of the yield. They did a before and after check on that particular field in the hopes that it would be sufficient proof that they had undergone about a 10- bushel-an-acre loss. Now, I know that the man did not follow the procedure of prop er claims because he didn't in form Crop Insurance and have the inspector out to look at the field, but there was ample evidence of damage, the swaths, even after they were picked up, sh owed damage.

There were duck feathers. They were between three sloughs. There was a lot of loss. But the Crop Insurance Corporation followed the letter of the law that they have and they wouldn't even look at the claim. I would not have even considered pushing the matter with Crop Insurance other than the fact that they had this yield test done, which is very very accurate, I've had it done on my farm. They are within a half bushel an acre of their average yield on a field when they do this weigh wagon test in the field.

Armed with that information I thought the farmer had a legitimate claim, but it was turned down, and I would only ask the Minister to take that kind of a circumstance under consideration. I didn't contact him because I didn't think there was any use in pursuing it after the fact. But I think the individual had a legitimate claim, waiting for that extra day.

Even though it only would have been till 10:00 the next morning, there would have been two feedings by about 30,000 ducks and they would have taken substantially more grain and he made the decision that evening to take the field off and they fin ished at about 3:00 in the morning and there was no before and after that the inspectors could go out and look at the swaths.

I just want the Min ister to be aware that there is a tech nique there to demonstrate the loss and that he might advise Crop Insurance that could, in extenuating circumstances, be used as a basis for a claim, because there was a substantial claim. 976 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minis ter. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I accept the honourable member's comments regarding the situation and we will see whether we can advance and look at the procedures.

I think the honourable member realizes, it's a bit of a difficult area, in terms of how far do you go and say, well if the ducks were eating there for three or four days, why wasn't a call made? But if there is an option of expediting and dealing with such matters, we'll certainly take that under advisement and see if we can improve that. I share the concerns of the honourable member in those kinds of - they're not, what one would say black and white situations - and they're not easily reconciled and resolved. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I'll be very brief on this particular item but there is something that I am concerned about, and that is, the problem that both the Province of Manitoba are having and the Federal Government are having, in continually finding funds for crop losses.

The policy, which I think should be at least pursued or looked into, in view of the fact that Ducks Unlimited have a program to further encourage the hatching of ducks in Northern Canada and those ducks feed upon the lands of the farmer, I wonder if the Min ister would be prepared to support or work towards having a program introduced by Ducks Unlimited to provide for compensation on crop loss, so as to take some of the funding off of the federal and provincial taxpayer. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Min ister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I should tell the honourable member that those kinds of discussions, those kinds of points are being raised. There are discussions and points on. both sides of that question, vis-a-vis their position, but certainly I recognize that there is validity to that kind of a concern, in terms of the building up and wanting to make sure that there is adequate waterfowl habitat and the preservation of waterfowl, that there are certain costs that go along with it. Those kinds of comments have been raised and discussions are in place.

Whether or not there will ever be a resolution to that effect, I cannot say at this point in time, but certainly those comments have been - (Interjection) - well, yes, that's a particular - there's many more areas than that in the province but I don't want to hold out hope that Ducks Unlimited will be the salvation of additional funds for compensation for depredation of crops. But certainly that's an area that has been discussed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, being a supporter of Ducks Unlimited, I would just like to point out that it's a non-profit organization operated enti rely on donations from individuals and corporations. It's very difficult to establish whether they're federal ducks or

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 provincial ducks that have so migrated south and had created the problem. So it would be very difficult to have people that are soliciting donations to improve the habitat for migrating waterfowl to be expected to cover losses caused on their migration south. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for The Pas. MR. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Min ister, I have a concern in the area of duck depredation as well. You raised some figur es earlier, showing that there's $50 an acre level in some areas and $100 acre coverage in other areas.

In The Pas area, where we are surrounded by projects of Ducks Unli mi ted , and one major area is the Saskeram, and the farmers of The Pas area have been trying to get a greater level of compensation for many years. I'm just wondering what the criteria is for getting the 100-acre coverage rather than the 50-acre coverage because they are located to an area that is next to a major duck raising area. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Min ister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I can't give the honourable memb er a precise answer but, as I understand it, there are probably two criteria that have weighed in the determination of the establishment of the areas, whereby the actual damages are covered by waterfowl depredation, and that is whether the area surrounding the area where ducks are sta ging, is predominantly agricultural. But primarily those areas which are - I guess as they call it - a staging area within the province, where many thousands, hundreds of thousands of ducks, on their migration, fly and end up landing in a particular area year after year.

Those are the areas which have been used, I believe, by resou rces in designation for the di fferent compensation levels. The Oak Hammock area and I think Marshy Point on Lake Manitoba are such areas where there are hu ndreds, thousands and thousands of ducks on their migration pattern, land in those areas and, of course, they don't happen to land in the area that's designated for them, they spread out through the fields right around. It is not a major nesting area but it is a major staging area for the waterfowl, and I believe that's the basis for the criteria that have evolved over the years. MR. H.

HARAPIAK: Mr. Minister, it is my understanding that this program was always administered under the Department of Natural Resources in the past years and the farmers of The Pas area had always felt that they did not get a proper hearing from the Department of Natural Resources. So it is my hope that now it is coming under the Agricultural Department, that the farmers will get a fair hearing in that. HON •. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I thank the member for his comments, but I should point out to him while the program entirely now is being administered by the department, through the Manitoba Crop Insu rance Corporation, the adjusting services of crop insurance have been used for a numb er of years in terms of the actual adjustment of the crop, so that in fact, and I don't want to raise the great hopes of major changes in assessment, the assessments will be made on the basis of the data that the adjusters have at the time of settling the damaged claim. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(h)- pass; Item 2.

Manitoba Crop Insu rance Corporation - Administration - The Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under this particular item, I have a particular interest, of course. In this item under the expenditures, I do have a meeting with the Board of Directors of the Crop Insurance Corporation, coming up on March 30th, but seeing as we've reached it in the Estimates, Mr. Chairman, I think we can maybe get answers to some of my concerns maybe under this item. Mr.

Chairman, there has been a proposed move of relocation of the Crop Insu rance offices from the Town of Mi nnedosa to Neepawa, some 17 miles distance, sup posedly to place it in a more central location. There has been a considerable number of complaints to me and to the people in my area, Mr. Chairman, about this proposed move.

There has been a letter, or several letters, to the Mini ster; one particularly from the Mayor and Council of the Town of Minnedosa written on February Sth to which they haven't received a reply as yet; another one on February 14th to the Honourable Minister on behalf of the local farm busi ness association group which has not received a reply as yet either. They outline their concerns, Mr. Chairman. I won't read all of the letters, but just to put some of it on the record.

The Mayor and the Council object very strongly to it and I'm quoting from the letter, "Mi nnedosa, like all rural communities, is presently fighting for its economic survival due to the present recess ion in Canada. Morris Rod-Weader, which employs 120 people at their Minnedosa factory is still shut down, and in the last 18 months we have lost three major retail businesses on our main street, closed due to the recession. We feel this is not the time for the Provincial Government to take away another service from our town and move it 17 miles down the high way to another community.

The Crop Insu rance office has been located in Minnedosa over the last 14 years and the farmers in the area are well satisfied with this location. 977 "Mr. Min ister. last November. you and the Premier met with over 60 elected municipal offi!'ials here in Min nedosa and I had the pleasure of chairing that meeting, and I can assure you the large majority of municipal people you met that day would not approve of the Crop Insurance offices being moved out of Mi nnedosa.

"The Premier said that day the reason for these meetings with municipal representatives was to bring government closer to the people and to exchange ideas, so government could become more efficient. We think meetings of this type are an excellent idea. May we sugge st that instead of the government relocating offices, they look at the possibility of realigning the crop insurance area boundaries. "In the case of Area 12, which is the one in our area. the bounda ries do not take into considerati on communities of interest and natural trading areas. As

Tuesday, 22 March, 1983 an example, 80 percent of the farmers in the Rural Munic ipality of Harris and the Rural Mu nicipality of Saskatchewan, which is in Area 13, never normally go to Hamiota where Area 13 office is located. This also applies to many farmers in the Rural Muni cipal District of Strathclair and the Local Government District of Park. We notice all of the Rural Muni cipality of Westburn is in Area 12. "In fairness, these farmers should not be expected to come to Min nedosa or Neepawa for their crop insurance.

Their natural trading area is Portage la Prairie where the majority of them are now serviced, Mr. Chairman. We notice the Rural Mu nicipality of Daly and the Rural Mu nicipality of Elton are in Area 6, and these farmers would never normally go to Souris where Area 6 office is located. "Mr. Min ister, we urge you to have your department give full consideration to the possible realignment of the area crop insu rance boundary." And they attach a resolution passed unanimously by the Council.

The farm busi ness group also outline basically the same conc erns, and the memb ersh ip in their organization naturally feel that the farmers in that area would be best served by a realign ment of the boundaries. They pretty well echo the same realignment of the boundaries and they end up by saying that we feel that this proposal, if implemented, would be a more satisfactory arrangement. Driving distances would be cut to a minimum for both farmers and corporation staff, and the offices would be located more closely to correspond to traditional trading p

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-2-31a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 2nd hansardpdf 31a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0b88d027370dba9b626d6939bfaba9da2225d9b2

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