Manitoba Hansard — 11 April 1983 (Sitting 43B, 32nd Legislature, 2nd Session)

32-2-43b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second legislature Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Publlahed under the authority of The Honourable D. Jame• Welding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 438 - 8:00 p.m., MONDAY, 11 APRIL, 1983. Pnnled by the Office of the Oueens PnnlfK. Province ot �-

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Co nstituencies and Po litical Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASC HUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOV NATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thomp son La Verendrye Min nedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elm wood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Nia kwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin- Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Ross mere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP INO NOP NOP NOP NOP NDP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP NDP NOP PC NDP NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NDP NDP NDP

LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 11 April, 1983. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPL Y SUPPLY - LABOUR MA. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The meeting will come to order. We are in 3.(a)(2) -the Member for Thompson. MA. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As I was saying before we broke at 4:30, I don't think anybody in this Assembly is not of the opinion that there is a very urgent situation, a crisis situation with regard to summer jobs at the present tim e and I would include in that category, not just students, but also young people in general because there are many young people who have been out of work for quite a while. Certainly I've seen people in that situation in my constituency and I'm sure it's the case across the province. lt is certainly an area that I know is of a major concern in my constituency right now.

In Thompson the major emp loyer, lnco, is going to be hiring very few, if any, students this year and this is about the first year that this has ever happened. They've had varying num bers over the years but there has always been at least 45 or 50 at the minimum and they'r e not going to meet that level this year. This places a greater burden on a program such as the Careerstart Program and others of a similar nature.

In looking at the Careerstart Program, which is an impr oved version of some previous programs, I was wondering if we could perhaps look at what happened la st year with the previous program, the Career Internship Program, as compa red to previous years and see the basic trends and in particular, I'd like to look at the trends within the North. it's my understanding from talking to people connected with the previous program in Thompson there was a dramatic increase in the num ber of businesses and community organizations participating under the previous program as compared to the program in 1981 and all previous programs to that and I was wondering if the Minister has any statistics in this regard as it relates specifically to the Northern area.

MA. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. HON. M. DOLIN: I have some figures for 1981 and 19 82 for the youth programs in the North. The Manitoba Private Sector Youth Employment Program in 1981 em ployed 15 5 young people. The Career Internship Program in 1982 emplo yed 325 young people for positions. MA. S. ASHTON: Mr. Chairman, that's an increase, in fact, it's more than double and it kind of reminds me of some of the comments which were made about last year's program around this time by members of the opposition who were trying to predict doom and gloom for the program.

I certainly found it wasn't the case in my constituen cy. However, I take it that it's part of the normal political process. My area of inte rest , though, was not so much historical figures but as I said, is the actual reality of the situation facing young people this sum mer. I was wondering if there were any special efforts that the department would be undertaking at a regional level to try and get the same kind of promotion that obviously they got last year because it's rather a significant increase in the numb er of jobs under the summer programs. HON. M.

DOLIN: One of the important changes is the change within the department itself so that the services are co-ordinated and offered on a regional basis. There's the Northern Regional Emplo yment Services staff and office and that group of people will be searching the North for job opportunities; helping young people and, in fact, all unem ployed people match to these opportunit es; taking information about the various programs of the government after these people, both employers and potential employees; and in general seeking employment opportunities and matching them to unemp loyed people in the North. MA. S.

ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, I certainly feel that's the area that we have to look at in terms of expanding job opportunities because the im pression I gather ed from talking to people with the Department of Labour in Thomp son last year was one of the areas where they had a fair amount of success, and that was that there was a fair amount of promotion. I kn ow some members that question the amount of promotion.

I'm wondering though in areas such as Thompson whether these packages of information are being mailed out to everybody and whether there's going to be any in-person follow-up because I think that the best way of promoting the program is a combi nation of information, personal contact and accessibility from departmental people. HON. M. DOLIN: There was certainly an inclusion of the North in the mail out of information on this program as there was on others, and the staff has the information available and takes it out, you know, in person, to people who would be interested.

Also, the deadline for the North was May 6th and that originally was set later than the other one because of the problems in the North and I think that was part of my ini tial announcement about the program. But we will extend that deadline for applications for a week as well, just as we did for the southern regional services. MA. S. ASHTON: Well, I thank the Min ister for that allowance for the particular situation of the North.

I think this is one thing that is often overlooked with a lot of government programs and, that is, that in the North you have di fferent time frames, di fferent situations, and often it takes a slightly di fferent treatment in terms of things such as appli cation 1590

Monday, 11 April, 1983 deadlines and also in terms of the way you promote a program. It's all very well to have the media promotion I know that's always been a part of these kinds of programs, but to have that regional emphasis, I know from personal experience, really helps get the local busin essmen and the local community organizations in touch with where the program is at. It's a lot easier to relate to a departmental employee in the City of Thompson, for example, than it is to relate to somebody via the phone in the City of Winnipeg, so I think it's an excellent move in that regard. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minis ter earlier today indicated that the majority of the advertising for the programs took place in Winnipeg and the Member for Thompson has just asked about northern programs. Possibly the Min ister has answered this earlier, but what type of a rural advertising program was put forward by the Minister? Could she indicate that type of advertising, the papers that were covered and the information provided if she hasn't already done so? HON. M. DOLIN: I did answer that question rather completely this afternoon.

I indicated that a mailing was done, that a mail walk or mail drop was done to busi nesses and farms th roughout rural Manitoba; 64,000 of the leaflets were distributed and advertising was done in rural weeklies - Thompson, Roblin, Portage, Flin Flon and Brandon papers and so on - a thorough covering of the province with information. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter is maybe not aware that the Manitoba Co-operator, which is a farm grain producers' co-operative, covers the majority of agricultural people in rural Manitoba. Did she provide that same ad in this paper? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, it was.

It was on the back, so they had to cut up the questionnaire. MR. J. DOWNEY: The Minis ter indica tes that it was provided. As well, she indicated that it was rural drop. I have a farm in the southwest corner, Mr. Chairman. Did she drop it at every farm, or how did she decide who was going to get the information? HON. M. DOLIN: It was done through the postal system. I'm sure you are familiar with the way that is handled. MR. J. DOWNEY: I'm not very satisfied with it, Mr. Chairman. I'm not very happy with the postal system in Manitoba, so that may be why some of us didn't get our mail.

But I think it's important that the same kind of information and advertising of programs is available. Does the Minister believe that she is adequately covering the num bers of, particu larly, those students who are looking for job opportunities who are going to have jobs created or developed by the Government of Manitoba?· is she satisfied that she will cover all those people who are looking for jobs? HON. M. DOLIN: As I stated this afternoon, yes, I am satisfied that the program is adequate. MR. J. DOWNEY: She is indicating that there won't be any students going without a job this summer.

Is that what she's saying? HON. M. DOLIN: If the member wants me to repeat a!I my speeches from this afternoon, I'd be happy to, but what I said, basically and briefly, is that this program is not the only program going on in the government right now and it's certainly not the only program for young people th at deals with the problem of unemployment among young people. It is part of a whole. That is exactly why we wish to discuss job creation initiat ives that are a part of the Jobs Fund under that particular appropriation, because then we can look at the totality of the program.

Although it is expandable and probabl y will be expanded, there is no intent or promise that this particular program is going to put every young person between 16 and 24 to work. There are lots of other opportunities and we still have opportunities in the design stage that we will be puttin g into place to meet the needs of the unemployed in Manitoba. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, to the Mini ster, the Minis ter may not be aware that her colleague, the Min ister of Agriculture, has not been paying the kind of attention that he should be to the employment opportunities that have been traditio nally offered through the Department of Agriculture in the Research Branch, in particula r, at the University of Manitoba. There is one particular program that has been cut by some 30 jobs which have been traditio nal in plant science and field test operations within the university programs.

Can the Min ister assure us that she will now, with her career program and her job opportunities, be prepared to fund the shortfall that the Minister of Agriculture has seen fit to let lapse? Will she now replace that with the funds that are available in her department so that program car\ be carried on? 1591 HON. M. DOLIN: Well, firstly, the funds are not in my department as I have stated repeatedly. Secondly, it sounds to me like the member is talking about a university program which means the university is the employer.

I'm not sure, it's not my Appropriation and I can't speak to it, but I'm sure the member is quite aware that the employer, whoever that employer is, is the one who applies for funding under the program. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, does the Min ister of Labour not realize that it is her responsi bility for all of the people who work and have jobs in Manitoba, that it falls within her portfolio, and if one of her Cabinet colleagues do not feel they are able to carry on with a particular responsibili ty, that she should pick up that shortfall and see that there are those opportunities provided?

Because I can truly point out specific areas where there is a shortfall in funds and it hasn't happened prior to this particular year, it hasn't happened before the NOP came in, but now that the NOP are in office we find they don't seem to have the kind of co-ordinated efforts that have been put in place in the previous, not

Monday, 11 April, 1983 :mly four years but quite a few years, where the people have found tra ditio nal emp loyme nt students, in particul ar, through job opp ortunities provided through meaningful work oppor tuniies. I think if the Minis ter of Labour has not done so, she should discuss with the Minister of Agriculture how they could put funds forward or encourage the university to make jobs available that are of meaning to rural students, not only agricultural students, but whatever department they're taking their education in and give them some experience. As well, Mr.

Chairman, I have a difficult time with the Minis ter of Labour who has apparently failed in her efforts to provide the kinds of environment, or overall environment, where students from whatever walk of life they come from would have had job opportunities through the private sector, whether it would have been the Western Power Grid Development, whether it would have been the Alcan Smelter, or the Potash Mine in Western Canada - (I nterjection) - You know, the Minister of Labour laughs. She laughs at some 800 jobs that would have been developed, Mr. Chairman, in the potash industry in Western Manitoba.

She laughs about those kinds of jobs. What about the job opportunities that would have been provid ed through Ma nitoba Hydro in the development of Limestone and the Western Power Grid? Mr. Chairman, these are summer jobs that every student in Manitoba could have worked on. We wouldn't have needed a lot of additional funds provided by government if she and her colleagues had been doing their job.

But because she's a member of a Cabin et that snuffed out some of the major economic initia tives - the Alcan Smelter is another one - if she hadn't have been part of a Cabin et that snuffed out those major economic initiatives that were set forward prior to their entering government, then she wouldn't have had to sit here and take the emb arrass ment of lack - (I nterjection) - well, she's again laughing. You know this is serious business, Mr. Chairman. - (I nterjection) - The Member for Thom pson says my speech is a joke. I would like him to go and talk to the unempl oyed people.

In fact, I challenge him to a debate in Thompson with the people up there - (Interjection) - well, invite me up and I'll debate with him. But, Mr. Chairman, what I'm saying to the Minis ter of Labour is that she wouldn't have been such a failure in the provision of jobs for students if there had been summer jobs provided through the economic initia tives that had been set forward in the previous four years. It wouldn't have been such a mark of failure on her record because it would have been an automatic that the summer students could have gone out for summer job opportunities.

I ask the Mini ster, - and I'm very serious in my question to her - is she aware that many university students today for the first time in the last four years have had to go to their parents or had to go to other economic support mechanisms for them to pay for their tuitions that they haven't had to do for the last period of time, that this is the first year they've had to go for outside support? They can't support themselves during the NOP Government times to provide themselves with enough money to pay for their tuition fees and have had to go to their parents or outside sources. That, Mr.

Chairman, is a mark and an outright abolition of her respon sibili ties. I think she's the one that's going to have to wear the marks of that kind of record because, in fact, if she did a little tour and a little research right now at the university she'd find probably 50 percent of those students without jobs for this coming year and have to go for outside support for tuition. If she had a meaningful program that wouldn't have happened. By her own admission there are some 17 ,000 people without work coming out of that work force, and she's satisfied.

She just told us that she's doing all she can to provide work activities for those people. It's a shame, Mr. Chairman, and a sham on the young people of this province. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Chairman, I have in front of me the totals, the overview of Student Summer Employment Programs. In the summer of 19 81- 82, the number of student jobs created - 9,439. MR. J. DOWNEY: Big deal, what about the other 17, 000? HON. M. DOLIN: That was 19 81, before this present government took power. A MEMBER: You're a bloody failure. HON. M.

DOLIN: 1982 - 12 ,35 1 jobs created for students, a substantial increase without the Power Grid or Alcan which may or may not have provided any jobs at all; a substantial increase and there was a change in government from one year to the next. It is certainly my hope and my intent to create all the jobs that are necessary to employ people' but I'm sure that the members who are questioning - if we can call it questioning - who are making comments about these Estima tes, would support the idea of a mix between the private sector and the public sector.

I find the suggestion that government is respons ible for creating all the jobs for youn91 people an interesting ones in light of the fact that tt>ey are also saying that it's the private sector that is going to do this. I point out again, that our unempl oyment rates in Manitoba are still not shtisfactory, of course, are still much better than all Dut one other province, the provinces that believe that the private sector is going to do it all.

There has to be a balance and that is the balance that we are attempting to achieve and obviously the private sector out there, particularly small business, were those who study and research these things say that most of the jobs will be available. Those businesses are supporting these programs. A tremendous response from business and farms for the programs that you have questioned about so far, that response is coming in daily.

So the people out there know the programs, the people out there are responding to them, and from the figu res I just gave you the increase in numbers of jobs created, you can see that it didn't take Alcan of the Western Power Grid to put students to work last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (a)(2)(a) - the Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: What was the unemplo yment rate in 19 81, and what was the unempl oyment rate in 19 82? HON. M. DOLIN: For whom? 1592

Monday, 11 April, 1983 MR. J. DOWNEY: For the young people under 25 years of age in Manitoba, Mr. Chairman. HON. M. DOLIN: If you want youth umempl oyment you'll have to wait a moment. MR. J. DOWNEY: They've had to wait for a job for a couple of years. HON. M. DOLIN: I think a lot of them are going to school. Have you seen the enrolment rates at the universities and community colleges? MR. J. DOWNEY: Has she been recognized, Mr. Chairman? HON. M. DOLIN: I have several sets of figures here for you ... MR. J. DOWNEY: I just want the unemployment for those people under 25, Mr.

Chairman, for 19 81, and those under 25 for 19 82. HON. M. DOLIN: Do you want percentages? Do you want labour force, or do you want the numbers of unemployed? MR. J. DOWNEY: I would like both, Mr. Chairman, the percentage and numbers. MR. CHAIRMAN: He wants both the absolute number and the percentage num ber. HON. M. DOLIN: The labour force in 19 81, both sexes ages 15 to 24, was 13 0,000; in 19 82 it was 12 8,000. The unemployment figure in 19 81, ages 15 to 24, was 10 .6 percent; in 19 82 it was 13 .9 percent. MR. J. DOWNEY: What is the difference in numbers of people, Mr. Chairman? HON. M.

DOLIN: What is the difference in number . MR. J. DOWNEY: In numbe rs of people. How many more are unempl oyed in 19 82 versus 198 1? HON. M. DOLIN: Approximately 4,000. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, then the Min ister is indicating that, in view of the fact that with the num ber of programs she has introduced , there is still an increase of unemployed students in that age group. In fact, it points out that she is not dealing with the problem that is before her. HON. M. DOLIN: We put them to work. MR. J. DOWNEY: There are 4,000 more unemployed the year after she's introduced a multitude of programs, Mr. Chairman.

She hasn't increase.d any more, Mr. Chairman. HON. M. DOLIN: Excuse me, but the question dealt with last year. You were talking about last year's figures and the year before that. The programs under discussion in these Estima tes are this year's programs. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur, what is the question? MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the question is, does the Min ister agree that there are an additional 4,000 people more unemployed this year than there were last year under her administration? HON. M. DOLIN: The member asked for figures from 1981 and 19 82. I gave you the figures for 19 81 and 1982.

I did not give you figures for 1983. MR. J. DOWNEY: I appreciate it would be difficult to gi ve them for 1983, but the Mi ni ster had the responsibility for 19 81- 82, 19 82-83. HON. M. DOLIN: I'm sorry, i did not. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has indicated that the percentage increase this year from last year, was from 10 .6 percent on 13 ,000 to 13 percent for a number of 12 ,800 people for this particular year, which gave us an increase of unemployed people in that category, of 4,000. That's 1981- 82. So what she is saying is that she has not been able to deal with the unemployment problem.

Why did we get to this, Mr. Chairman? If she had been dealing with it in a responsible manner, why did she get to this? HON. M. DOLIN: I don't know where the member was during the last Estimates. I certainly wasn't here. I'm not quite sure what his point is, because he is referring to programs and initia tiv es for 19 83 for student employment using figures that he asked for and that I gave him for 1981 and 1982, and talking about the fact that "my programs" did not meet the need. The programs in fact, if I can speak about the former Minister's programs, did meet the need.

We put those students to work just about that difference that you were talking about, but those were not my programs and they're not the ones under discussion. This is the first time I have been in an Estimate review, and I wonder who the member thought he was seeing last year. It wasn't me. MR. CHAIRMAN: May I remind all members of the commi ttee again that we are considering 3.(a)(2)(

a) and that, according to Rule 64(2), "Speeches in the Commi ttee of the Whole must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion. " The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that the Minister is not taking responsibility for the Minis ter that was in office prior to her . HON. M. DOLIN: Either one of them. MR. J. DOWNEY: Either one of them, she said. That's fair game. If she doesn't want to associate herself with the Min ister of Finance, that's quite all right. Dealing specifically, Mr. Chairman, with the numbers she's dealt with, is she indicating to this committee 1593

Mond ay, 11 April, 1983 that their new programs this particular year will, in fact, reduce the number of unemployed this comi ng year to what they currently are now from the 13 percent of the 12 ,800? Will her programs that she is talking about, that she is spending provincial funds, taxpayers' money, will that reduce the number of unem ployed students over the next year so that when we come back to the next Estima te process that she is able to give us figures that show that the num bers of people who have employment are less than they are today? Can she give us that assurance?

That's what she is wanting her money for. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Chairman, I answered questions almost identical to this this afternoon under a

section which we have already passed. We are now under (2)(

a) Administration, Salaries. I would hope that you would call this commi ttee back to the point which should be discussed. MR. CHAIRMAN: I just reminded everyone, including the Memb er for Arth ur, tha t the speeches in the Commi ttee of the Whole must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion. The item or clause under discussion is Administration, Salaries of the Labour and Employment Services. The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I don't mind moving on if the Mini ster, if she doesn't do it now, is prepared during her wage allocation to provide me with the information that I'm asking for. Is she telling us that the programs she has in place will, in fact, reduce the number of unemployed from the 18 -point-some percent that it's now at in that age group, and will be lowere, in fact, a year from now? That's what we are asking her for and if she doesn't want to answer it now, then we will proceed, Mr. Chairman, to ask her during her Salary. I will pass to the next item if you call me out of line. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(2)(a) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, on this item, I wanted to ask one further question. It has been brought to my attention from municipal people and other people outside, Mr. Chairman. This relates to the fact that an unemployed young person is able to receive a wage assistance at the rate of $2 per hour and if the position is filled with a Native student, the employer will receive wage assistance at the rate of $4 per hour. Does the Min ister not feel that the program is downgrading Native students by having such a differential? HON. M. DOLIN: Mr.

Chairman, the special measures component is an incentive compo nent. MR. G. MERCIER: I appreciate that's what it says, Mr. Chairman, but I'm asking the Minis ter if she doesn't feel that such a differential is downgrading the ability of Native students? HON. M. DOLIN : In keepin g with the way this government functions certainly measures like this are not likely put in place. There was consultation with Native organizations througho ut this and they are very pleased, in fact, delighted with this kind of incentive. It's the employers that we are trying to encourage. MR. G.

MERCIER: So the Minis ter doesn't feel that it is downgrading Native students to offer double the wage assistance in those cases? HON. M. DOLIN: Perhaps I could ask the member to be more specific by what he means exactly? MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I think I've adequately explained it. The normal assistance is $2 per hour to an employer, a Special Measures component it's called. If the position is filled with a Native student - I'm not questioning the disabled part of it at all - the employer is entitled to receive wage assistance at the rate of $4 per hour, which is obviously twice the normal assistance.

Does the Minister not feel that she is downgrading the ability of Native students in providing double the wage assistance if they are provided with employment? HON. M. DOLIN: Well, I'm still interested in hearing the member define downgrading, parti cularly when he separates out Native students from the disabled, who are both covered by this special incentive. It is, after all, not the students or unemployed youth, it's the employer who is being encouraged to hire these young people. But I wonder just what the member means by downgrading. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, I'm asking the question, Mr.

Chairman, to the Min ister because I've had this raised to me. Does the Minister not feel in offering double the wage assistance that what she is saying is that you can expect 50 percent of the work? This is a question that has been raised and I'm asking, does she not consider she's downgrading the abilit y of Native students to perform a job by offering double the assistance? HON. M. DOLIN: First of all I am amazed that the member should suggest that and again single out the Native students. He must be assuming then that the same is true of the disabled student or unem ployed young person.

But I can assure the member that it is the employers who have historically shown a great deal of resistance to hiring disabled young people or people of any age, or Native people of any age, and we could go on, we could probably add to that list. The resistance is there on the part of the employer. What we are doing is encouraging employers to hire these young people because we know that they can do a good job and they will do good job and we know that they arei:teserving of attention in the labour market.

We feel that it's im portant to help employers pass this resistance that they have, many of them, not all of them certainly but many of them, and that's the reason for the incentive. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I don't want the Minister to get the wrong imp ression. Everybody is deserving of assistance that is unemployed. I just wanted the Min ister to explain the rationa le for offering 1594

Monday, 11 April, 1983 this particular assistance. Has this been done in any other program, the Minis ter or her department? Have they looked at other programs where this has been done and has it proved successful? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, there was an incentive grant for the disabled young people last year. MR. G. MERCIER: Not for Natives? HON. M. DOLIN: No, for the disabled. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, I just say to the Min ister, Mr. Chairman, perhaps she could take this question as notice for the next set of Estima tes.

Perhaps she could develop some statistics that might just indicate how successful the special measures component was in the program this year? HON. M. DOLIN: Certainly. We would be monitoring that anyway and we'd be happy to report it to you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, just a brief question. Maybe the Minister's answered this earlier and if she has just say so and I can read it in Hansard. As I understand it the Careerstart Program is going to provide a $2 per hour subsidy to the employer of an employee. Is that correct? HON. M. DOLIN: That's correct.

To the employer for · the wages of the employee. MR. J. DOWNEY: At what rate is the employer charged the employment tax on those individuals, on the $4 or on the $2 plus what the normal wage would be, or what is the employment tax charged on? What rate? HON. M. DOLIN: Employers pay a variety of wages to employees. When there is a $2 subsidy on those wages that doesn't assume any particular wage that the employer is paying. It often depends on the job being done.

The payroll levy as you refer to it, the health and post secondary education levy, is assessed in the same way that it is assessed for any other employee. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the $2 that is paid in subsidy regardless of what wage limit or what wage a maximum is being paid by the employer, is charged the 1. 5 percent payroll on the $2 an hour that they are paying as a government program. A MEMBER: So what? MR. J. DOWNEY: So they're not getting $2 an hour subsi dy. HON. M. DOLIN: You still want to know whether the 1.5 percent comes on the balance of the wage, or whether that $2 is included? MR. J.

DOWNEY: That's right. HON. M. DOLIN: It's on the total wage, on the gross wage. MR. J. DOWNEY: So in other words, Mr. Chairman, the program is not in fact paying $2 an hour subsidy but is in fact paying $2 minus 1. 5 percent government payroll tax? Is that correct? HON. M. DOLIN: The program pays $2 an hour subsid y. MR. J. DOWNEY: Of which there is 1. 5 percent payroll tax taken off it. Is that correct? MR. R FOX: There's a lot of taxes taken off all your wages. MR. J. DOWNEY: That's for sure. With the NOP there's a lot more and they just waste it, Peter. HON. M. DOLIN: If I could answer the member.

There is the inclusion this time also of 10 percent for employee benefits that is paid out. That is additional as well and is new in this program. A whole lot of taxes for all kinds of things are paid by employers. They have a lot of expenses. This is merely one of them. The unemployment insurance and various other things have to be paid as well and if the member will recall, unemployment insurance costs have gone up tremendously this past year. I don't hear him mentioning that but it's another one of the costs to an employer. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I'l l ask another question of the Min ister then.

She said there's a 10 percent benefit as well. Is the 1. 5 percent payroll tax paid on that 10 percent benefit as well as the 1. 5 percent has to be paid on the $2 government subsidy that is paid? HON. M. DOLIN: My understanding is that it is paid on the wages of the employee. I would suggest though that if you have any more detailed questions on the health and post-secondary education levy they'd be more appropriately asked of the Minis ter of Finance. MR. CHAIRMAN: It would facilit ate our proceeding if the Member for Arthur will confine his questions to the item under discussion.

The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I'm talking about the Careerstart Program and I'm asking the Minis ter of Labour if the 1. 5 percent payroll tax is deducted from the wage of the people that are getting the $2 an hour subsidy. She's saying, if I understand it correctly, yes. that the government are collecting the 1.5 percent payroll tax on the government subsi dy, so in fact the $2 an hour they are paying is not $2 an hour but less the 1. 5 percent payroll tax that is government money. Is that not correct? HON. M. DOLIN: That is not correct. MR. J. DOWNEY: Then, Mr.

Chairman, the Mini ster has misled this comm ittee. She just prior to that told me that is the case. That the 1. 5 percent payroll tax is payed by the employer and it is deducted off the total wage of which part of that total wage is made up 1595

Monday, 11 April, 1983 of the $2 an hour out of her program, and the 1.5 percent is deducted in fact from that particular $2 that is paid in subsidy to the employer. Is that not correct? HON. M. DOLIN: The employer can pay that tax from whatever fund he or she wishes. It is figured on the wages of the total number of employees, not just on students hired for the summer, certainly. It's a tax figured on the payroll. It is not deducted from the wage subsidy given to the employer.

If the member wishes to figure if he was an employer he would in his mind reduce that subsidy by an amount he would have to pay for that levy then I suppose he can do that but it does not lessen the amount paid in subsidy. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, on the Careerstart Program let us use the figures - and I'll just set out an example of them - that the employer is starting a new business and he is prepared to pay $3 out of his own business and the government is paying $2.00 That is a $5 an hour wage to an individual. Is it correct that there will be a 1.5 percent employment tax to be paid on that $5 an hour?

That's the question. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's correct. HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, that's correct. MR. J. DOWNEY: Okay. So in other words the $2 the government are giving . . . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman for the Minis ter of Labour because the Minis ter of Labour is having a hard time getting a straigh tforward answer. In other words the $2 an hour subsidy that is being paid in the Careerstart is taxed at 1.5 percent, so in fact it is less than $2 an hour. As well I have a further question and I thank you for answering, Mr. Chairman.

A further question, she said there was a 10 percent benefit provided in this program, and I don't understand precisely what that is, will that be taxed at the 1. 5 percent as well, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: Did the Honou rable Minis ter get the question? HON. M. DOLIN: No. Will what be taxed? MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the Member for Arthur please repeat the question? MR. J. DOWNEY: Yes. The Mini ster indicated earlier that there was a 10 percent benefit as well provided through this program. Am I incorrect in understanding it in the way in which I have interpreted it? HON. M.

DOLIN: The formula, if the member is thinking of being an employer and hiring under this program or any program, and in fact if the member is thinking of being an employer in this province, the $2 subsidy - assuming it is a $2 subsidy and not $4 - plus 10 percent, that's for the employee benefit package, plus the employer contribution to the wage whatever that is, it might be $3, it might be $2, it might be $10 who knows, equals the wage. That wage, plus the wages of all other employees of that employer times 1. 5 percent indicates the amount of levy to be paid to the Government of Manitoba. MR. J.

DOWNEY: A final question. In other words the Min ister is saying that they are not providing the support to the level in which they have indicated in their program of $2 an hour plus 10 percent. It's 10 percent and $2 an hour mi nus the 1.5 percent payroll tax that imme diately comes off the top to pay for government tax. So it is somewhat less than what they're advertising. Does the Mini ster agree or not? HON. M. DOLIN: I suppose that if the employer has to pay a municipal tax of some sort as well that it would further reduce the subsidy by th e memb er's computations. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Well, the Min ister can go round it, fudge it and try and throw other things into the debate if she likes. She has to agree I think, Mr. Chairman, that the persons who are getting support from the government, are getting the support minus 1. 5 percent for the provincial payroll tax. Is that not correct? HON. M. DOLIN: I suppose the member can have that opinion if he wishes. It is not accurate to my way of thinking, nor I would think to any clear thinking person's way of thinking, but the member could have that opinion if he wishes.

All the figures that a business person uses in determining wage packages, in determining tax packages, in determining costs of running the business are of course figured into his or her accounts. Now if you wish to say that one particular expense comes out of one part of a person's wages well then you can say that, but that doesn't make it true. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think the Minis ter has to admit that there is a reduction in the amount of subsidy that she's paying to the employer by the amount of 1.5 percent both on the $2 subsidy plus the 10 percent benefit that she talks about.

So in other words what she is doing, on one hand she is taxing that individual through the tax department to pay income tax and to pay all those taxes that anybody in business has to pay to operate in Manitoba, and they are turning around and giving them those funds to employ people. But the point I want to make is - and I think it's pretty well pointed out now - she has to admit that the subsidy she is paying is reduced by 1. 5 percent because it is in fact - well she admitted it earlier in commit tee - it's the payroll tax that has to be paid by those employers of people and that's it. Mr.

Chairman, I'll quit at that and if she doesn't want to respond further but I take it as 1. 5 percent less than what she's saying she is giving to those people who are employing people. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, this is not the place or time that the Minis ter should be obliged to give the Member for Arthur an economics lesson but I'll venture a little bit of advice notwithstanding. There's no doubt in the history of government finance that government puts out money to stimulate the 1596

Monday, 11 April, 1983 economy and it puts out money to assist people getting jobs and to be holding jobs and there are returns come back to government by virtue of the fact that those monies are also taxable, and those monies once put into circulation have a multiplier effect. That is the reason - (Interjection) - Well, now the Member for Minnedosa says come now.

He knows about the multiplier effect because he was in the banking business and one of the first lessons you learn in elementary economics is the banks take your dollar that you put in the banks and by virtue of their system they are able to loan out $10 and the velocity of money produces significant returns. So, Mr. Chairman . . . MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. What is the point of order? MR. D. BLAKE: The point of order is that the Minis ter is imp uting motives to the banking system that they take a dollar on deposit and they lend out 10 .

It's an old Social Credit funny money philosophy theory that is just not true. They can't lend out any more than their liabilities and their deposits happen to be liabilities not assets ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair rules there is no point of order. The speeches of the Commit tee of the Whole must be strictly relevant to the item or close under dis cussion. Can we go back to the item under discussion? HON. A. MACKLING: So, Mr.

Chairman, in respect to the monies that are paid to the university students or other employees, it is true that the small businesses who hire these students may make more profit and if they make more profit then they will be taxable and we, the Government of Manitoba, will be receiving money back and it will be offsetting the money that was paid out to assist those small businesses in their employment programs. What we're looking at is the payment of the money.

Whatever taxes befall either the recipients of the money, if the students earn enough, that given the present income tax provisions they will be paying tax back to the Federal Government and the Provincial Government. - (Interjection) - Well, some do, Mr. Chairman, and to the extent that the small businesses earn money, they will be paying tax back to the Pr ovincial Governme nt or Federal Government. So those are the economic facts of life for the Honour able Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Does the Member for Arthur want to be recognized or does he want to raise the point of order? MR. J. DOWNEY: I'll be recognized, please. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, that's all you want, you want to be recognized. The Member for Arthur is recognized. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to say, Mr. Chairman, with all respect, Sir, you just brought us to a point of order a few min utes ago. I'm talking about the Careerstart.

The point that I wanted to make and make sure - the Minis ter hadn't responded - that the $2 subsidy paid to the small business or anybody who is employing people in Manitoba has a deduction to pay of 1. 5 percent. As well, they have to pay the 1.5 percent deduction on the 10 percent benefit that she talked about and I have taken it and I have taken it. I'll leave this comm ittee with the idea that is true, Mr. Chairman, that she has not withd rawn that statement, that I can leave this commit tee with that as fact and I will quit at that. Thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolseley has been trying to receive recognition, shall we give it to her? The item under discussion is 3.(a )(2)(

a) and we're going to confine our discussion on the item under discussion. MS. M. PHILLIPS: Mr. Chairperson, I'd like to make a comment. The members opposite on this particular line of the budget have been trying to say that the Minister's job creation efforts are not enough to meet the task at hand.

That's what they've been saying on one hand; on the other hand, the Member for Arthur seems to be most concerned that while we are assisting employers to the tune of $2 an hour to create jobs for young people in this province, he seems to be very concerned that they might have to find 3 cents per hour to pay the payroll tax for that particular individual. Now, it seems to me that the issue here happens to be trying to get young people employed in this province and assisting employers or encouraging employers to take on that task, and also getting a job done that that employer sees useful in his or her enterprise.

So I think for them to be spending the last 15 to 20 minutes worrying about 3 cents an hour shows just exactly where their commi tment to employment for young people in this province rests. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, does this area of Adminis tration administer the Manitoba Employment Action Program? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mini ster. HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, it does. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister issued a press release in February indicating that the initial $2 million allocation had been increased to $5.6 million.

Could the Minis ter point out to me where that money is contained in her Estimates? HON. M. DOLIN: The remaining part of the Manitoba Employment Action Program that overlaps into the '83- 84 fiscal year amounts to approxima tely $3 million, which is under the Jobs Fund initia tives. MR. G. MERCIER: It's in the Jobs Fund? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, that's correct. 1597

Monday, 11 April, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (a)(2)(a) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Is this another new initiative? HON. M. DOLIN: Obviously, when it's a continuing program from last year and this is the remaining portion that's in this fiscal year, it is not a new initia tive although the Manitoba Employment Action Program itself was a new initia tive during this past fall and winter season. The Jobs Fund, as we have so carefully pointed out on numerous occasions, is made up of employment creation programs, some of which are continuing and some of which are new initiatives. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3. (a)(2)(a) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister had issued a press release in January with respect to the $24 million job development program with the federal Employment and Immigr ation Department and the province funding $12 million of that program. Is there money for that program for '83-84 in the Jobs Fund, too? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, there is money in the Jobs Fund for that in that program. The adminis tration of that program falls under a different line of my budget - further down, the Federal-Provincial Programs Co ordination. MR. G.

MERCIER: How much is in the Jobs Fund then for '83-84 for that program? HON. M. DOLIN: For which program? MR. G. MERCIER: This federal-p rovincial job development program - NEED. HON. M. DOLIN: Well, I just indica ted that's under Item (d). The discussion of the administration of that program should take place under (

d) in the same way that I have allowed some discussion of the Careerstart Program, but it's a Jobs Fund initia tive and the money is in there, so I will not be discussing the financial implications of the program until we get to the Jobs Fund appropriation. MR. G. MERCIER: How much money is in the Jobs Fund then? HON. M. DOLIN: $200 million. MR. G. MERCIER: We know how much is in the total, how much is in there for the NEED Program? HON . M. DOLIN: I'll be discussing tha t under Approp riation 29. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, "can wait till (d)." I'm asking a simple question about how much is in the Jobs Fund for the NEED Program that her department is administering. It's just a simple ... HON. M. DOLIN: This question is not even appropria te as far as my Estima tes are concerned and I have said that repeatedly to the member . Federa l-Pr ovincial Programs Co-ordination is Item (d). If we could pass these other items, we could get that far. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: We'll wait until (

d) then. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(2)(a) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: What other job creation programs are admin istered under (2)(a)? HON . M. DOLIN: Under (2) (a), it's Sala ries, not Expenditures. I think you mig ht be talking about (3). MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(2)(a) - the Member tor St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, we're talking about Admin istration.

This is an area that has admin istered the Careerstart Prog ram and a number of other programs, including the Manitoba Employment Action Program that I referred to earlier which the Minis ter indic ated is financed $3 million in the Jobs Fund for 19 83-84. I am asking her if ther e are any other employment programs that are being admin istered out of this department for wh ich there is no specific appropr iation and perhaps are funded out of the Jobs Fund program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M.

DOLIN: If there are any other programs admin istered out of the Jobs Fund program by this staff, is that your question? MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the Member for St. Norbert repeat the question, please? MR. G. MERCIER: Yes, Mr. Chair man. I am asking the Minister if there are any other job creation programs adminis tered by her department that do not appear under one of the following appropr iations and perhaps which are being funded out of the Jobs Fund. HON. M. DOLIN: No, there are not. MR. G. MERCIER: How many staff man years are in this department? HON. M. DOLIN: There are no staff man years in any of my departments.

Staff-years in this department, there are 24 in the Branch. A MEMBER: Staff. person years, staff years. MR. G. MERCIER: Is there an increase? HON. M. DOLIN: No, there is no increase. 1598

Monday, 11 April, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair is having difficulty trying to - will you please indicate . . . HON. M. DOLIN: I said, there was no change. MR. G. MERCIER: Why have salaries increased then by over 20 percent? HON. M. DOLIN: The increase shown in Salaries includ es the following: the 19 82-83 general salary incr ease shortfall, a share of that, which is $37,000; the 19 83-84 wage increase which is $50,600; the 27th pay period, remember, is in there, $22,500; and merit increments and other adjustments amounts to $800.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item No. 3. (a)(2)(a) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister - I believe it was this Min ister, in August; maybe it wasn 't. I'm not sure. Yes, it was - announced a job creation agreement to provide temporary work for 293 Sherritt-Gordon employees at Lynn Lake in August. Today, during Question Period, the Member for Turtle Mountain questioned the Minister of Energy and Mines with respect to not approving a job creation agreement proposed by Sherritt-Gordon. Could the Mini ster explain the difference between the agreement tha t was approved in August and the one that is being proposed, which has not been approved? · HON. M.

DOLIN: The question the member asked, again is under Item (d}, but I would be happy to explain to him that there is a basic difference in the two programs. MR. G. MERCIER: Why would the Minister be happy to deal with one item on this, as opposed to . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. M. DOLIN: All right. I'll wait until (d). If the member wishes me to do i:;o, I will. MR. CH AIRMAN : Certain ly, the memb ers of the comm ittee want to facilitate the proceedings of the House. Can you follow the rules, please? The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: I'm just wondering why the Minister arbitrarily chooses to answer one question and requires me to wait to have other questions answered. HON. M. DOLIN: Because, theoretically, we have no program as you suggest. You have just asked a question about a program that doesn't exist, the one at Sherritt Gordon that you questioned in the House today, so I would be speaking about a program that isn't in place. MR. G. MERCIER: Which has been proposed - it doesn 't matter whether it is in place or not. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(2)(a)- pass; 3.(a)(2)(b)- pass; 3.(a)(3) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, on Item (3), does this include more than the STEP Program? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert is asking a question. HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, it includ es . . . MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you. Please let me know when I'm not. MR. CHAIRMAN: Because I cannot tell whether you want to be recognized or not. Please signif y. A MEMBER: Wave your flag, Gerry. MR. G. MERCIER: I'll let you know when I don't want to be. HON. M.

DOLIN: This appropriation includes the STEP Pr ogram, as you mentioned, the Hi re-a-Student Program, Volunteers in Public Service, and the Northern Summer Education Program. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Minis ter break out the funding then for each area? HON. M. DOLIN: The total funding for the STEP and government program is $2,399,600; the Hi re-a-Student Job Centre Program, $177,400; Volunteers in Public Service Program, $161, 10 0; and the Northern Summer Education Program, $16 0,900.00. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, there is a small decrease in funding compared to last year.

Can the Minister indicate which program was affected? HON. M. DOLIN: The health and post-secondary education levy, which I believe is about $40,000, is out of there and into the appropriation under the Civil Service, where all of that levy is located. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(3)- pass; 3. (a)(4)(a)- pass; 3.( a)(4)(b). MR. G. MERCIER: Where is the funding for the Northern Development Agreement Program? Is that contained elsewhere? HON. M. DOLIN: That's in Northern Affairs - it's 20 percent in Finance and 80 percent in Northern Affairs. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the department's function here then? HON. M.

DOLIN: We administer the program. MR. G. MERCIER: And you administer the Manitoba Careers Travel? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Is that all? HON. M. DOLIN: Under that particular Appropriation, yes, that's the program. 1599

Monday, 11 April, 1983 MR. CHA IRMAN: 3. (a)(4) (b)-pa ss; 3.(b) (i) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairm an, can the Min ister outline her policy position with respect to this area and whether or not there have been changes in policy, or any proposed? HON. M. DOLIN: Well , perhaps just a few remarks about this branch would be appropriate then. The branch is responsible for the development of policies and programs that enable the government to respond to issues related to immi gration , demography and citizenship.

The objectives of the branch are to ensure that the levels and composition of imm igration into Manitoba, in clu ding refugees , sup ports the attai nment of Manitoba's demograp hic, humanit arian, economic and labour market goals and reflects Manitoba's absorptive capacity with respect to the labour market, health and social services. Ano ther goal of the department is to facilitate imm igrants' effective attai nment of self-sufficiency and ability to participate fully in the social, political and economic life of Manitoba, which in cludes maximizing employment opport un ities for imm igrants.

In that particul ar area, we're concerned with English as the second language in the workplace; we're concerned with the Newcomer's Guide and other objectives such as that. There's no changing in staffing for this year. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, has the Minis ter taken a position with respect to imm igration levels? HON. M. DOLIN: I'm not sure what the question is. Are you talking about levels of incoming imm igrants? MR. G. MERCIER: Yes. HON. M. DOLIN: There' s an ongoing negotiation process that takes place with the Federal Government with the Min ister responsible, and that still is in place, of course.

MR. G. MERCIER: I kn ow there's an ongoing discussion. I want to know what is the Min ister's position on immig ration levels compa red to last year? HON. M. DOLIN: Last year, our imm igration figure was 4 percent of the Canadian total imm igration, which was around 5,000 people. That has remained consistent - 4 percent, 5 percent of the Canadian total for the last 10 to 15 years. It hasn't changed. MR. G. MERCIER: Has the Min ister taken a position with respect to the total amount of imm igration? HON. M.

DOLIN: Aside from the very im portant fact that we support the position of the Federal Min ister in the Federal Government with regard to refugees and a humanit arian approach to imm igration , I would say that there's not been a change in num bers. But perhaps if we looked at the number of refugees as oppo sed to regular imm igrants - there may have been a change there. I don't know that information. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , has the Min ister taken a position with the Federal Min ister with respect to the total imm igration level into Canada and Manitoba? HON. M.

DOLIN: That really is a federal issue and the figures are determined on about a three-year basis, so it depends on what the Federal Government determines tha t it's going to spend on the refugee or the imm igration situation and how much they spend overseas on this. As I say, that figure is determined usually on a three-year basis, so it's not an annual negotiation. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman , the Annual Report ind icates that this area develops information with respect to the preparation of an annual position on immig ration levels, and this represents Manitoba's input in the Federal determination of the size and composition of Canada's imm igrant intake for the following calendar year. This is an annual position, as set out in the departmental report. Does the Min ister take, or has she taken , or is she taking a position with respect to total imm igration levels in Canada? HON. M.

DOLIN: As I mentioned earlier, our number one priority is the humanit arian issue and that is what we have made clear to the Federal Government. Our second issue that we negotiate or that we talk about with the Federal Government, has to do with the employability of the people coming into the province. We've also determined that we will take a certain number of special-needs immi grants and the number that we have ind icated that we can absorb in Manitoba is 25. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the planned int ake of refugees for 19 83? HON. M.

DOLIN: We again plan to absorb about 4 percent of the Federal total, which remains at about 5,000 persons. MR. G. MERCIER: The Annual Report indi cates that Manitoba has tended to receive a higher proportion of the Canadian Refugee Movement than it has of the total Imm igration Movement - 5.5 percent of the Refugee Movement as compared to 4.2 percent of the total movement for 19 81. Is the 5.5 percent figure of the Refugee Movement which the province has received in the past been reduced to 4 percent? Is that what she's saying? HON. M.

DOLIN: No, you asked about the imm igration figure in total and I indicated earlier that our first priority is to offer a refuge, if you will, to the refugees, so that being our priority in negotiating the number of people that we will take and the status of those people is that refugees are very high on our priority list. So there is a higher percentage of the whole that are within this classification. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1)- pass; 3.(b)(2)- pass; 3.(c)( 1 ) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , it seems to me that the Min ister issued a press release with respect to a 1600

Monday, 11 April, 1983 program under this area during the year. Could she comment on this section? HON. M. DOLIN: Is the member referring to The National Training Act? Well, I have the whole Training Act with me but I don't think you want me to read it to you, so I'm looking for a sort of encapsulated version of it for you. MR. G. MERCIE R: Mr. Chairman, there was an indication that the Provincial and Federal Governments signed an agreement for the expenditure of $1 40 million to train skilled workers during the next three years and tha t was back in Septemb er, I beli eve.

What is Manitoba's share of that program? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert is asking Manitoba's share of that program. HON. M. DOLIN: Our share under the Skills Growth Fund is what you're asking, I believe? MR. G. MERCIER: Well, is that the $1 40 million program that was signed? HON. M. DOLIN: $1 08 million is what it is now. The terms under the Skills Growth Fund are somewhat flexible, in that each province submit ted a list of programs they would like to have covered under that program.

The Federal Government, of course, had ideas too about the things they would like under the program and it was negoti ated over many long months. The announcement has not yet been made on that. What we have heard is that Manitoba's share will be around $10 million. MR. G. MERCIER: Over how long a period? HON. M. DOLIN: That's the first year of the program. MR. G. MERCI ER: Is there any funding in the department for that, to cover the province's share, or will that be out of the Jobs Fund? HON. M. DOLIN: Under the Skills Growth Fund portion of that Act, that's all federal money.

That's start-up money for programs which the province would then continue in many cases. MR. G. MERCIER: So under that training agreement, it's all federal funding? HON. M. DOLIN: Under the agreement, it is all federal money. The Training Act Agreement is a vehicle for industrial training, institutional training and the new component, the Skills Growth Fund. MR. G. MERCIER: What does the province agree to do in the agreement? Do you admin ister and spend the mo ney as the Mi nister of Na tural Resources indicates? I don't have any objection to that. HON. M. DOLIN: We agree to provide the training in many cases.

The institutional training is taking place at our community colleges. Many of the programs under the Skills Growth Fund, of course, are all offered through provincial opportunities and provincial groups. This could be taking place in a free-standing sort of training centre such as the one tha t has already been announced, the Technological Training Centre, or they could be within the commu nit y col leges or the universities. So there are a number of different ways in which both public institutions and private-sector institutions are involved in this and our

part in this is negotiating as good a deal as we can for Manitoba. MR. G. MERCIER: In those cases then, they pay fees to those institutions like Red River Community College? HON. M. DOLIN: Under one

section of the agreement, yes, they agree to purchase so many places for training and so on. MR. G. MERCIER: Is this a pure Canada-provincial agreement so that over three years the Min ister indicated $11 0 million will be spent? Did she? HON. M. DOLIN: The agreement is a th ree-year agreement. The allocations that are negotiated for the purchase of training sites are done on an annual basis. The Skills Growth Fund is a two-year program under The National Training Act to which approximately $11 0 mill ion has been allocated nationwide, but it was not predetermined how much each province would get.

That had to be negoti ated and it was negotia ted on the basis of programs subm itted and what the Federal Min ister wanted done, what the skills are, the designated occupation lists, and so on. So, all of these things had to be taken into consideration and we tried, as I say, and negoti ated the best possible deal for Manitoba. MR .. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, then is the funding under this appropriation just confined to admin istrative duties related to the agreement with the Federal Government? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, it's a very small branch. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)( 1)- pass; 3.(c)(2)- pass. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, the Mini ster said we could discuss the NEED Program here. HON. M. DOLIN: In general terms. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, my question earlier on to the Min ister when she referred to this appropriation was, how much of the province's $12 million share of the NEED Program is to be funded under the Jobs Fund? HON. M. DOLIN: I believe the question was, what did we appropriate for funding under the NEED Program?

In the press release that accompanied the announcement of this program, the joint press release with the Federal Min ister who has indicated that the province would match the federal funds, which meant $12 million on either side, that's for the 18 -month run of the Need Program. There was another $5 million in the Fund for Manitoba that's directly admini stered by 1601

Monday, 11 April, 1983 the Federal Government, and of that, $1 million is for admin istrative costs. So there's 4 million that they expend on their own; then there is the 24 million, 12 from each side, that is available for federal-provincial funding of projects. MR. G. MERCIER: I must have missed it, Mr. Chairman. How much money is the province spending in the next fiscal year on this program? HON. M. DOLIN: That is an allocation under the Jobs Fund and I will discuss it under Appropriation 29. By the way we are actually discussing (d)(2) at this point, I hope the member realizes, not (d)( 1) . MR. G.

MERCIER: Well you want to discuss this under (d)(2). HON. M. DOLIN: Well, it's not an apprentice ship progam. MR. G. MERCIER: Wha t is covered in the apprentic eship programs? HON. M. DOLIN: Apprenticeship. MR. CH AIRMAN: We are no w discus sing Item 3.(d)( 1) (a). HON. M.

DOLIN: Under the Apprenticeship and Trade Certification Unit we have the prima ry objectives that are centered on the establishment of standards of competency for persons working in designa ted trades, the training of individuals via apprentice ship training to attain those standards, and the examination of individuals to ensure standards have been obtained. Increased utili zation of apprentic eship training via both expanding num bers of apprentices and greater num bers of designa ted trades is also an objective of the unit.

The unit also undertakes a development of standards of service for barbers and hairdressers, and examines for competency in conjunction with the issuance of licences to persons employed in these occupations. As part of its mandate, the unit is responsible for the ad min istra tion of The Appr entic eship and Tradesman's Qualifications Act, The Barbers Act and The Hai rdressers Act. During the past year they've been actively involved in developing and refining training curricula tor apprenticeship training, particularly with reference to the roofer, industrial ins trument mechanic, and aircraft mechanic trades.

This last one, the aircraft mechanic trade was newly designed for apprenticeship training during the past year. In addition discussions are nearing conclusion with respect to the potential designation of cooks and bakers for apprentic eship training and certificat ion. The role of industry and effective program development has continued to receive high prior ity, enabling information exchange between emp loyers, employees, instr uctors, and apprentic eship staff in the continuing development of apprenticeship programs. There are 26 staff years in this branch and that's no change from '82-83.

That's what we're requesting. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)(1 )(a)- pass; 3.(d)( 1) (b)- pass; 3. (d)(2)(a) - the Hon ourable Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, this is the area, I take it, that admi nsters - the Min ister said earlier - admin isters the NEED Program. How much money is allocated to the NEED Program from the Jobs Fund in the upcoming fiscal year? HON. M. DOLIN: The line in this budget is for the salaries of the people that do the admin istrative work. The expenditu res under the NEED Program, like other programs in the Jobs Fund, are containe d in Appropriation 29. MR. G.

MERCIER: How much are they administering in the Jobs Fund? HON. M. DOLIN: I was just confirming with staff the mechanism here, and as programs are app roved under the NEED umbrella, the NEED Program, through the NEED Advisory Board and so on, money is then requested from the Jobs Fund. So there is not a specific amount that is being spent in '82-83. I gave you the global figure for the 18 -month program' which runs over three fiscal years and that was carefully deline ated in the press conference that we originally had on this program. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister doesn't invite me to her press conferences. I want to know how much is the province going to spend on the NEED Program in 19 83-84? HON. M. DOLIN: I don't have that figure. No. 1, it is under a different appropriation, and No. 2, it had not yet been expended. MR. G. MERCIER: How much do you estimate to spend? Mr. Chairman, you know, the Min ister is going to cause herself a lot of problems. You know, we went through a great harangue last week because she wouldn't answer some simple questions on Careerstart. She dealt with them today. We asked our questions and it was over and done with.

You know, we're getting to the same point on this particular program. I'm asking a simple question as to what her department proposes to be spend on the NEED Program in the upcoming fiscal year? That's not a difficult question. There are funds here for the admin istration of that program in her deparment, and I would ask her just to give us that estimate. HON. M. DOLIN: If you're talking ab out the admin istration of the program, that's the salaries of the people who administer it, and that's the line budget that I can talk to you about.

If you're talking about programs under the NEED umbrella, those are in process right now. I have given you a figure that reflects the amount that the province is committed to for that program for the 18-month duration of the program. The amount that will actually be spent in 1983-84, I can't give you. If you wish to take three months off the beginning and three months off the end, and say the middle 12 months of that 18 is in fiscal year '83-84, and divide the money accordingly, you could come up with a ball- 1602

Monday, 11 April, 1983 park figure for what might be expended in this fiscal year. But the fact is that it has not been expended. We may expend the entire amount, and we may not; it may carry over into the following fiscal year. The program runs for 18 months. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, that could apply to any appropriation here. Just because something is included under the appropriation doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be spent. But the Estimates have to contain an estima te of what is expected or anticipated, or estima ted to be spent under a particular program.

There's a program here which the Min ister announced on January 14th, 19 83. She also previously announced it on December 6th, 1982, and I want to get an explanation of that in due course. She estimates in the press releases that the Government of Manitoba will match the federal funds with $12 million of job creation funding. I'm simply asking, in the fiscal year 1983-84, how much do the estimates contain for this program? HON. M. DOLIN: I think I have been very clear in answering the me m ber, tha t this is a Jobs Fund allocation. That line is in Appropriation 29.

The money is available as programs are approved and we can apply to the Jobs Fund for the money. It is not within our budget, so I can't tell you how much we are going to spend in 19 83-84. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, we went through this in the Careerstart just a few minutes ago. The Minis ter said that we should deal with the NEED program under (

d) and so I deferred ... HON. M. DOLIN: I also clearly stated that I would not answer financial questions because it was under the Jobs Fund. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, financial questions, I'm just asking for the lump sum that the government anticipates spending on this program in 19 83-84, which her department admin isters. Surely to goodness, that is not too difficult a question. HON. M. DOLIN: $12 million over the 18-month life of the program. MR. G. MERCIER: When did the program begin? HON. M. DOLIN: January 1st of this year. MR. G.

MERCIER: We're dealing with a 12 -month period in the Estimates, obviou sly, Mr. Chairman. How much does she expect to spend from - perhaps she could estimate how much has been spent to date then, from January 1s t, or how much she expects to be spent by the end of March, I guess. HON. M. DOLIN: Up to the beginning of this fiscal year, $2.6 million in federal and provincial joint funding had been approved. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the Minis ter then expect to spend in the area of $7 million to $8 million in 1983- 84 under the NEED Program? HON. M. DOLIN: That's possible.

It is also possible that we would expend the entire amount. There has been nothing expended to date. Those are approved projects. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Min ister trying to tell me that there is this program, a federal-provincial agreement, and there is no specific funding approved anywhere in the budget to carry out the program? HON . M. DOLIN: There is approved funding in Appropriation 29. MR. G. MERCIER: How much? HON. M. DOLIN: $12 million for the life of the program. MR. G. MERCIER: But you can't budget for 18 months in this document, you can only buget for 12 months. HON. M.

DOLIN: If I could repeat to the member again, the whole point in having a Jobs Fund is to allow the kind of flex ib ilit y th at will let us approve mo re expenditures for a program that is quite successful and putting people to work very quickly, and perhaps less expenditures for a program that is not able to get that kind of a take-up. It allows that kind of central adminstration and that kind of central disbursing of funds. That is not possible when you keep everything locked into departments and you have to go through an interdepartmental trade of not only programs, but of funding and everything else.

That is the whole point of the Jobs Fund. Perhaps, the member is making the point for us, because it's exactly this kind of co-ordination and this kind of flexibility that is going to be such a positive thing to work with as we put Manitobans back to work. A MEMBER: Come, come, that is utter nonsense. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I believe the Minis ter indicated it was $2.9 million that she anticip ates being spent up to the end of the 19 82-83 fiscal year. Then she's saying, the balance of the $12 million commitment can be funded in 1983-84 out of the Jobs Fund. HON. M.

DOLIN: I indicated that federal-provincial approval, so far, commi tment of $2.6 million has been gi ven to projects. Tha t is federal and provincia l commitm ent up to April 1s t. The cost-sharing depends on the project involved. 1603 MR. G. MERCIER: I wonder if the Min ister could explain. It appears there was a Canada-Manitoba press release, dated December 6, 19 82, that Canada and Manitoba agree on job creation funding and the Federal Minister signed a letter of agreement.

Then there was a press release issued by the Minis ter on January 14, 1983, announcing the Min ister had signed a letter of agreement January 12 th to formally announce the start of the program. Can the Minister explain the reason for the two press releases? Did she not announce it on December 6, 19 82? HON. 1\11. DOLIN: The first information that you have, the earlier date, was a letter of intent to finalize the

Monday, 11 April, 1983 negotiations. We were close to having an agreement at that point. There were a couple of items that still needed to be negotiated. We com ple ted th ose negotiations and determined the final details of the program and announc ed that, in fact, the program was und er way. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Min ister ind icate what was at issue between the Provi ncial and Federal Government? HON. M.

DOLIN: The situation towards the end of the calendar year in 19 82 was that all provinces were negotiating under this agreement, and negotiating for a share of the funds made available by the Federal Government, and were negotiat ing how they would match these funds and what the details of the program would be. The Federal Government wished to have some indication of where we were by the end of the calendar year and we gave them that assurance, so that we agreed to those items already negotiated and we indicated in writing our agreement with them and then concluded our negotiations soon afterwards. MR. G.

MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, in a newspaper

article of December 22nd, the Mi nister of Mines and Energy, who I supp ose may have been the Acting Min ister of Labour, indicated that the Manitoba Government feared abuse of the program unless rules were tightened. He said that this Mi nister had raised that and other concerns with the Federal Employment Minister. Was something done in the final agreement to overcome that concern? HON. M.

DOLIN: I don't have that particular press release in front of me, so I can't comment specifically on what the Mini ster of Energy and Mines was sayi ng, but during that time between the signing of the letter of intent and the final signing of the agreement, there were negotiations going on in all provinces, and as you recall, Manitoba was one of the earlier ones to sign.

Particular items under discussion were the numb er of exhaustees, the definition of exhaustees, the social assistance participants, their input into the program or their inclusion in the program, and also the one unique featu re of the Manitoba agreement, which is the determination that if there had been a layoff by the empl oyer, that layoff list, the recall list would be given consideration in the case of that emp loyer coming in under the program. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, the Mini ster of Mines and Energy has reported saying that a prime concern is that an empl oyer may decide to lay off workers and then replace them with those workers whose UIC benefits have run out -their wages would be subsid ized by the new program. Is that one of the Minis ter's concerns? HON. M. DOLIN: That was the government's concern. MR. G. MERCIER : Was it worked out in the new agreement? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, it was. We have a clause that allows for the recall - a percentage of the people employed are to be from a recall list, should an employer have laid off employees.

So if the emplo yer is coming in under the program and is going to receive subsidies for wages, then if that emp loyer has, in fact, laid off em ployees, a percentage of the people hired under the program must be from that recall list. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Min ister tell members of the committee how many Manitobans are presently on Unemplo yment Insurance Commission? HON. M. DOLIN: The number of exhaus tees, or on unemp loyment insur ance? MR. G. MERCIER: The numb er of exhaustees and the numb er who are presently on, who have the prospects of becom ing exhaustees. HON. M.

DOLIN: Well, we're looking for those on the Unemp loyment Insurance rolls. I can tell you that figures that are perhaps six weeks to eight weeks old indicate that we have just under 8,000 exhaustees in the province and I have them by CEC regions, but the total is just under 8,000. Un fortunately the last figures we have on the Unemp loyment Insurance rolls are from December, 19 82 and is 44,000 in Manitoba. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, has the Minister approved the rather controversial program that was proposed by the City of Winnipeg under this program? HON. M.

DOLIN: That program has not been forwarded to me by the Advisory Board yet. MR. G. MERCIER: lt's been app roved by City Council has it? HON. M. DOLIN: Well, it was approved by City Council before it was sent to the NEED Advisory Board. lt wouldn't have been sent to them without approval of City Council. My understanding is that it was approved by the Council. I also have a copy of a memo from their Executive Policy Comm ittee, and the program, because it has so many components, I guess, is still before the Advisory Board and I assume they will be indicating to me what they wish to have the Ministers do with it.

They advised both the Federal Minis ter and myself on these programs and they come forward from that Advisory Board to us for signature, after they've gotten through them. MR. G. MERCIER: Who is on the Advisory Board? HON. M. DOLIN: There are four members appointed by the province and four members appointed by the Federal Government and all eight people were negotiated and agreed upon by both parties, so they're not simply named. They were agreed upon. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister advise us who they are? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes. The members of the Advisory Council, the original group -there is one change, but 1604

Monday, 11 April, 1983 I'll read you the original group: Mr. Art Cameron; Mr. Bob Dryburgh; Ms. Mickey Ferguson; Ms. Terry Hanley - Terry Hanley has since resigned from the group but that's fairly recent and there will be a replacement there - Mr. Sam Linhart; Ms. Donna Lucas; Mr. Al McKenzie and Ms. Maureen Prendiville. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, in view of the fact that there are some 8,000 exhaustees, according to the Minis ter's latest available statitics, and some 44,000 people receiving unemployment insurance benefits as of December, 1982, are there other programs in the works under the NEED Program, not exactly like the City of Winnipeg 's proposal, but are there other proposals that the Min ister or the Advisory Commi ttee are considering? HON. M. DOLIN: There's a very heavy response to this program and the Advisory Board is meeting weekly and sometimes more often than that to deal with the programs that are becoming before them. MR. G.

MERCIER: So in all likelihood, the money allotted to this program is going to spent in the forthcoming year? HON. M. DOLIN: Well, I'm certain that full take-up on this program is probably in the works right now. MR. G. MERCIER: Under this item, I was going to ask about the Sherritt-Gor don workers, which the Minis ter said should be asked under this program. There was a program announced in August of 1982 that provided some temporary work for some 293 Sherritt-Gor don employees. Manitoba funded some $300,000, although I appreciate I think it was funded from the Mining Community Reserve Fund.

I take it the Minis ter shares the views of the Min ister of Energy and Mines with respect to the recent proposal by Sherritt-Gor don for funding? HON. M. DOLIN: I believe that the Minis ter of Energy and Mines has indicated that he has requested a meeting with the president, and so on, and he is going to be talking to him.

But I think that there's an essential difference in the two programs, and that is that the programs that took place in the past at L¥nn Lake and Leaf Rapids and even to a greater extent in Thompson, were programs designed to fill a particular time gap while there was a layoff, a temporary layoff, and the employees were going to be called back to work, and in fact, were called back to the job that they were doing before. The jobs that were created during that time did not relate to their jobs in the mine. They were jobs that were community based and they created lasting assets for the community itself.

What is being proposed here is something quite di fferent. It's a departure from the actual work the people are doing but it's not something to take place just during a temporary shutdown. It's a whole new venture and that's something quite different. MR. G. MERCIER: Has that program been considered by the Minister or her department or an Advisory Commit tee, if there is one, in this area? HON. M. DOLIN: No, that is being handled by the Mi nister that you questioned today. MR. G. MERC IER: Are there any other federal provincial programs that are monitored or co-ordinated through this appropriation? HON. M.

DOLIN:

Section 38 of The Unemployment Insurance Act is the one that was used to provide the kind of job creation initiatives that I just spoke about during the temporary layoffs in Thompson, Leaf Rapids and Lynn Lake. That sort of program is adminis tered through this Branch as well. MR. G. MERCIER: That's the only other program? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes. MR. CH AIRMAN: 3.( d)(2)(a) - the Mem ber for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just want to ask the Min ister if she could perhaps pass on a bit of information about how successful these programs in the North were despite the fact, as the Minis ter point ed out, that there was concentration on community projects rather than specific projects related to the normal work of the employees. I know from the latest reports from the Thomp son Impr ovement Projects, for example, that something approaching 370 positions were created and, in fact, that work is still continuing at the present time on school renovations, which are going to result in major renovations at the Thompson school system.

I was wondering if perhaps the Min ister could indicate the general experience that her department, which was quite heavily involved with the formulation of this program, has had with this particular concept. HON. M.

DOLIN: Just briefly, I think that two of the important things that came out of that experience in Thomp son were the lesson in co-operation that we learned in the development of the projects, co-operation from all levels of government, from the school divisions, the fourth level of government if you will, from the union, from the company itself, a large group of people from varying backgrounds getting together and determining how they could best work together.

The other thing that we think is very imp ortant from this project is the creation of lasting assets for the City of Thompson and that's a criteria that we use often to determine the value of a project. While we're putting people to work we want it to be, as much as possible, the creation of something to which they can look with pride and a community can have as a lasting economic asset. That happened in Thompson and we're very happy about that. I think it's also rather heartwarming to know that now while the people have gone back to work at the mines there is an upsurge in work at the mine.

So the people in Thomp son are very busy because they're finishing off these projects that they started under the Thomp son Impr ovement Project and they are also working very hard at the mine as work increases there and that's good to see in Thom pson which has really been hit hard by the recent recession. 1605

Monday, 11 April, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: The time being 10 :00, what's the wish of the committee? HON. M. DOLIN: Committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Commi ttee rise. SUPPLY - HE ALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: The commit tee will come to order. We are considering the Estima tes of the Department of Health, Item 4.(d)( 1) Continuing Care Services: Salaries. The Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairma n. I have a few more questions on this particular appropriation, this section, Continuing Care Services and I would like to deal with them now.

If we begin from the accepted premise that Continuing Care provides alternate care to institutional or custodial care, provides the kind of care that enables people to stay in their homes and provides comp rehensive services to the well elderly and to the sick who may be or could be in nursing homes and providing that care to them in their own homes, then we face the fact, Mr.

Chairman, that the adminis tration and the directors of the Continuing Care Services Branch, or di rectorate, have a responsibility for standards, policy formulation, monitoring of their standards and of their activities, and the question occurs as to whether ther e is duplication in respect to monitoring of standards and policy formulation in this field. There are, for example, in the executive function of the Department of Health under the office of the Provincial Gerontologist, some respon sib ilities for program and policy consultation,

interpretation and I presume, formulation, therefore, there are people in that di rectorate and that office, Sir, who must obviously be doing some of this kind of work that also falls into the realm of responsi bility for Continuing Care administr ative personnel. Ther e are personnel, for example, in the adminis trative services

section of the department in the Medical Supplies and Home Care Equipment directorate, who have a responsibility for providing equipme nt and supplies to persons requiring care in their ho mes. Then we have the Health Servic es Commis sion responsible for the setting and monitoring of standards of nursing care and care supplied in nursing homes or personal care homes, which are the facilities in which many of these people on Home Care ultima tely find themselves. So the possi bility certainly seems to exist, Mr.

Chairman, for some overlap and duplication of services in terms of providing the consultation, the counsel and the gui dance in delivery of these programs, the expertise in sha ping the programs, the est ablishme nt of standards, the development and formulation of policy and then the monitoring of the way those programs are carried out are their three groups; one for example in the office of the Provincial Gerontologist; one in the office of the di rectorate of Medical Supplies and Home Care Equipment, and one in the administrative office of Continuing Care Services carrying out these same functions, all at one and the same time.

Are there specific assignments that are carried out in Continuing Care by a staff of standards officers and monitoring officers in Continuing Care that do not overlap with some of the other offices and responsibilities that I have described? Could the Minis ter comment on that, the efficient use of manpower in the setting of standards, the formul ation of policy and the monitoring of Continuing Care Services? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there are no problems at all, no duplicatio n at all.

The equipment in the personal care home is the responsibility of the home or the individual, like the wheel chair is apt to be purchased by the patient themselves in a personal care home, for instance. The department is not dealing with that at all. As far as the supplies for home care, the di rector knows what he needs and he makes sure that he has the supplies. In the policies, if there is something new that we need, that is discussed with the Director of Continuing Care and they often discuss the supply, of course, but there is no difficulty there at all.

As far as policy dealing with the standards, well, there is a di rector at the Health Services Commission responsible for standards. That hasn't changed from the time my honourable friend was the Min ister. The standards in the personal care home, of course, is the responsi bility of the Director of Continuing Care. The only thing new is the gerontologist and the gerontologist is a very small - the unit, that di rectorate as of now consists of only two, the Pr ovincia l Gerontologist and a secretary. Of course, the provincial gerontologist works with a number of people.

As I stated earlier when I introduced the gerontologist, I stated that she is the Province of Manitoba gerontologist. She works half the time with people outside the department on pension or on all kinds of community services and housing. Of course, she figures in many of the - when the policy papers are prepared. We have a policy commit tee, when we're not in Session, every second week and these people meet together and they often, for instance, Enid Thompson and Kay Thomson, and Betty Havens meet quite often because they are working together, but I can assure you there is no duplication at all.

For instance, the support services, they are the three people that represent the department on that. So, the responsibility of the gerontologist is in the field of dealing with the elderly and, of course, she will take part with the planner. There's another one that we have to add, the Director of Planning is involved in that, but that's one thing we've had no trouble at all in trying to do away with duplication and so on.

They often work together because they bring different expertise and together when we have all these people that have had so many years of expertise that works very well, but there is no duplication at all, I can assure the member and the members of the comm ittee that. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, in delivering the regional services in the field, public health nurses are used very extensively in the department and I'd like to ask the Minister whether delivery of home care involves service by public health nurses to any significant 1606

Monday, 11 April, 1983 -------------------- -C--- -'0.------------ ·-��'"--· _,,,,� ... _, degree? I know that there are a substantial numb er of R.N.s LPN's that are involved in delivering home care. The biggest category of service suppliers, in terms of an indiv idual occupational group in the home care field, would be the homemak er. of course, but then there are substantial num bers of registered nurses and LPN's, aids, orderlies, and therapists. What about public health nurses? Are they being utili zed to deliver home care in any way or to any significant degree? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, in the City of Winnip eg, of course, there is no problem there, they are separated. There is the public health nurses who are delivering preventive programs mostly and those working with home care. Of course, there's the Victoria Order of Nurses. In the rural area we were quite concerned. We've hired people over the past, the public health nurses, and the first thing we know, as I mentioned earlier, they're out there delivering services because there is always an emergency it seems. and it's something that has to be done right away, but we are separate in that we've tried in certain areas.

I think the first place they tried was in Carman, where we had two nurses. Instead of them going all over the place, one nurse is strictly Home Care Program and the other one is preventative program and they're happier and it's working very, very well and it has been much more efficient. So we're looking at that, but the public health nurses definitely in the past have been involved with, not only nurses, they've been also social workers and so on, and people in the team in the field have been occupied with the home care delivery.

Of course. for the panelling also in the rural area and so on, they're usually on the board that does the panelling. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, just so that I have the point straight in my own mind, is the Min ister saying that his office is looking at amalgamating the services of public health nurses and the nurses who are involved with delivering continuing care and home care? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No , exactly the opposite, separating them; especially in the rural area because they've been amalgamated a little too much and one program is suffered at the expense of the other one.

The Home Care did not suffer but the preventative programs and especially in child and maternal care, and the education has suffered. And the nurses who have been hired to do public health are not too happy. MR. L. SHERMAN: Who monitors the service, and services and performance of the continuing care nurses serving the elderly, particularly in the home care area. Mr. Chairman? Is that done by the Office of Continuing Care itself? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, through the Regional Co ordinator of Continuing Care, but through the Office of the Continuing Care Services. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I want to just check with the Min ister on the matter of Services to Seniors that also comes under this particular appropriat ion. So I don't want to pass the complete appropriation yet because I want to talk to him for a few minutes about Services to Seniors, but that would conclude my series of questions with respect to the first three subsections of this particular appropriation. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(d)( 1)- pass; 4.(d) (2)- pass; 4.(d){3)- pass; 4.(dX4) - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to ask the Min ister abo ut the curre nt status and operat ing condition of the Council on Aging.

I know that earlier in the Estimates we dealt with the Office of the Provincial Gerontologist, but certainly under Services to Seniors comes the kind of approach that we attempted when we were in government to put in place through the input of senior citizens of Manitoba themselves, through a council that was estabished to enable them to assess and evaluate the general field of Services to Seniors and the general environment of life for senior citizens in Manitoba and to produce from their studies of those two subject areas recommendations for the government for future program ming and services and for meeting senior citizens' concerns.

So it does legitima tely fall und er the Services to Sen iors item tha t we are discus sing at the present time, even though I know the office of the Provincial Gerontologist was established really as part of the overall thrust contempla ted by the establishment of the Council on Aging. Where do we stand with the Council at the present time?

In the first year of its operation, which was the last year of the four-year Progressive Conservative admi nis tra tion, 19 77- 81, the Council undertook a comprehensive circuit of Mani toba and Manitoba seniors in their home communities throughout the province and developed somet hing like 35 or 40 recommendations, that they commended themselves to the government, whatever government, of the day for action. I've seen very little follow-up, or response, or reaction by the current government to that ini tiative and to that work by the Council.

In fact, there has been very little attention of a public nature paid to the existence of the Council of Aging in recent months. I would hope that it's not something that is being allowed to wither and die on the vine. Could the Min ister report to the commit tee on that item? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, the member is correct that there was a little less activity this year, not because we're trying to wind it up or to igno re it, quite the contrary, it is now being expanded to 15 .

There has been some changes in the makeup, that is an advisory board, but it also reports directly and works very closely with the Provincial Gerontologist, now that we have a Provincial Gerontologist. We've expanded as I say. Some of them, their terms were finished, we've replaced some and I believe that my reco mm endation is going to Cabine t eit her tomorrow or next week. So very shortly we'll announce the numbe r. They have been working, maybe not as visibly as they had in the past.

During the term of my honourable friend, they had started the first Manitoba senior citizen handbook and that was just about ready when there was a change in government. I think I passed the copies 1607

Mon day, 11 April, 1983 around last year and that has been very very well received and now this is being brought up-to-date and translated into French, Ukrainian and German. It seems that a lot of these people would welcome that and I understand that we should have nearly 100,000 copies by the end of this year. They have also worked on the report on the Young Adult Disabled, the transportation for the mobility disabled and physical fitness programs for seniors, and this has been received during the year.

Also the Council forwarded to me the study they contracted on Elder Abused last fall and we've appointed an interdepartmental commit tee to review the study. More work and more discussion has to be done on that but this is something that we value. But we recognize tha t the Council that was established under the former government is a very valuable one . We've ma de some cha nges to acc ommo date the addition of the Provincia l Gerontologist and they report directly to her instead of the Minis ter now and it will be expanded. So they will carry on the same thing.

We're trying to get not all senior people, not necessarily people that are retired, but people that are in their 65th birthday or somewhere around there. So we're trying to do that. We're trying to represent all parts of the province as much as possible - men and women - also if at all possible the different ethnic groups that we have in the province. MR. L. SHERMAN: Are there any fundamental changes to the terms of reference of the Council on Aging that are being contemplated by the government? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Unfortunately, I haven't got the terms of reference here.

It is pretty well the same thing, except the reporting, now instead of reporting to the Min ister , the Council reports to the Provincia l Gerontologist. That's the main change, there might be some slight modi ficatio n of some of them, but fundamentally they're doing the same thing again. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr . Chairman, what else is happening under the Services to Seniors category or um brella? Is there anything happening at the present time in the New Horizons area? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I should say before I forget, I said that there was a minor change, it's a little more than minor according their gerontologist.

I felt that an independent council like that became more of a militant group, which is all right, but the work was all being done by the department anyway, so now they're working closer together. As I say, they're reporting to the Provincial Gerontolog ist. Well, everything was going fine until my honourable friend mentio ned the word New Horizon. That's a word that I don't like too much and I'll explain why.

That's a Federal Progr am, if you remem ber, and this is something that the people that started it, the Federal Government, and then they pulled the rug and we ended up - and I'm sure that you went through that also - having to pick the pieces up. So, we're not really involved. I mentioned that to the Minis ter who, to my surprise, said that was the first time that was brought to her attention. She said that she would look at it. I haven't heard anymore about it. So we're not involved per se, although we have helped some of those that have been in difficulty over the years.

I'll mention those that are covered by this amount under 4, and there's the Age and Opportunity Centre. Last year they received $350,000, this year $379.5 - I think that we all know what the Age and Opportunity Centre does. It's not something new, it's been with us for a while. There's the Brandon Civic Sen ior Ci tizens Incorporated; they received $37.4, now it's $36.2. They are working with the Provincial Gerontologist also.

We have been for a number of years providing support to the Brandon Civic Senior Citizens in support of their program and outreach, Lifestyle Counselling Information Referral Services, education in meals - the latest Meals on Wheels is self-supporting of course. in 19 82-82, the level was 28, funding was increased to 32 for '82-83, an additional amount of 4.5 was granted for a non recurring item of expenditure and now we're back to the 36 - well it's a little more than it was, not counting the additional amount of $4.5 thousand. Then there's Meals on Wheels - we're also familiar with that program.

It was 35.5, now 38.5. There's the Rural Senior Centres. I might say that Meals on Wheels, Rural Senior Centres, Brandon Civic Seniors, and Age and Opportunity Centre, they might not be recognized by this department, but I'm sure the Min ister remembers that they used to be under the Department of Community Services and Corrections and in December of 19 82 this was transferred to the Department of Health. I now have the responsibility for services to seniors programs, so that's why they're here, but they're not new programs. There is a rural - yes, I mentioned the Rural Senior Centres.

The Manitoba Society of Seniors, that's one of the New Horizon Programs that was started and we bailed them out last year. We felt that they were very active, very interested people. They were doing a lot of work, so we've given a small grant last year. For this year, it'll be 43.2; last year it was 23.5 and this year 43.2. Finally, there's a program my honourable friend knows about. I don't think there was any funding at this time, but now we are funding the Youville Foundation in St. Boni face to the tune of $64,000.00. This will cover the items under

(4) Services to Seniors. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I w0•1ld ask the Minis ter if there has been expansion in the numbers of senior citizen centres. The so-called multi-service senior centres that had been developed and established in a number of rural communities; has there been an expansion of the number of centres, has the program been extended into new communities in the province; and what are the contemplated plans for '83-84 in terms of multi-service senior centres? HON. l.

DESJARDINS: The department has provided a grant of 11. 7 in partial support of programs at the Gordon Howard Seniors Centre at Selkirk, and other proposal for senior centre funding are being considered and there was a 9 percent increase in available funding recommended in '83-84. Some are being considered, but that's the only one that we provided the ... 1608

Monday, 11 April, 1983 MR. L. SHERMAN: Does the government contemplate any new programs, any innovations or initiativ es in programs for Services to Seniors, over and above those that are included in the existing umbrella? Does the Minis ter foresee the Council on Aging developing and proposing some program th rusts that he is now considering with his officials and would be planning to initiate in '83-84 in the Services to Seniors area? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I couldn't say that we're thinking of too many programs at this time. We're certainly working with them.

We're looking at the recommendation of the World Congress on Aging. We found that we're probably one of the leading countries in Manitoba, or probably one of the leading programs and services for the seniors, but there is no doubt that with our Gerontologist, who is working by the way on the Canadian paper, worked on it before, there'll be a conference. The Canadian provinces will be invited by the Federal Min ister when all these reports and the recommendations are ready, that should be later on this year and the Minister had request that we allow Ms.

Betty Haven to work on that comm ittee with other staff of different provinces and the senior government and, of course. we agreed to that. But we're more looking now at the services we have to see which ones that we could imp rove. We are looking, of course, at Home Care and the program that we both mentioned, the support services. We are looking in Fitness also to see what we can do for the well elderly. As I say, some of the new programs we've looked at, there's been the Society of Seniors and some of the seniors that I stated.

We have $32, 700 for rural centres and allocated on that, there is the one in Selkirk, 11 . 7. so there are other considerations. So there could very well be other programs, but I think we want to solid ify, look at what we have to make sure we don't start duplication and to ensure that the programs are good programs. I think that, if we keep up with that, we'll be doing very well in this year with the economy the way it is. MR. L. SHERMAN: How will that system of formulation and proposal of ideas from the Council on Aging to the Minis ter now work, Mr. Chairman?

The Minis ter has said that within a very short period of time, v1ithin the next few weeks, he expects to announce the new makeup of the Council on Aging. There will be some expansion of the numbers, probably some changes in personne l. I would ask him whether he's considering changing the chairmansh ip. But, over and above all that, how will that line of commu nication now operate with the Provincial Gerontologist in place?

Will the Council on Aging, under its chairman or co-chairman, still sit down in communities around the province, communicate with elderly people, identify the programs, problems and needs that elderly people see, and make recommendations to the Mini ster, or will everything be vetted through the Provincial Gerontologist? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The comm ittee will keep on with its work in the rural areas, as I said earlier. That is why we wanted to make it even more representative in age, sex, ethnic origin and the district, the area of the province where they are, trying to make it as representative as possible.

Not only will they come in and make recommendations to government, but they will also inform the seniors of the programs we have. We feel that they'll actually have two roles to do; inform the seniors, let them know of the programs that we have in place, how to commu nicate - something like the handbook, that was part of it - and then of course make recommendations. Yes, I certainly intend to meet with them occasionally, but they will report to the Provincial Gerontologist, who certainly has an awful lot more expertise than I have in that, and policies will be formulated and we'll do the usual thing.

The y'll have to be brought into the department and then go to Cabinet or Treasury Board to be approved. If my honourable friend's main reason for this line of questioning is to find out if they're going to be as important, if they're going to have as much a voice to the government, I say, definitely yes, because the Provincial Gerontologist will carry a lot of weight in our department and in the government. MR. L. SHERMAN: I'm pleased to hear that, Mr. Chairman.

I would hope that it's not the intention of the government or the Min ister to downgrade the Council on Aging in any way, and minim ize its role and weaken its potential for doing a very impo rtant job for Manitobans. One of its recommendations, shortly after it brought in its first range of proposals to the government of which I was a mem ber, Mr. Ch airman, was a recommendation for establishment of a gerontological centre or a centre for gerontological studies in Manitoba and, ideally, because of geographic location, service facilities, support structure, etc., etc., in Winnipeg.

With the Provincial Gerontologist now and a functioning Office of Geron tology under the Provincial Gerontologist, is there a continuation of that interest and that momentum on the part of government to develop, under this category of Services to Seniors, a source of information and knowledge and expertise in geriatrics and gerontology where studies in gerontology, courses and training in gerontology, can be carried out, where commu nity gerontologis ts as well as clinical professionals can be trained and made available to the community generally for this area of programming?

I would like to have the Minister's perspective on that, Mr. Chairman. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to inform the comm ittee that the Federal Government, through the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, has indeed funded a Centre on Aging at the University of Manitoba. The Provincial Gerontologist sits on the Centre's Management Commit tee and provid es an important link between the department and the university. The co-operative stance will continue to be pursued to the benefit not only of the university and the government, but certainly also to the Manitoban at large.

I think my honourable friend will remember also that both he and I ha ve expressed, on a num ber of occasions, how great it would be if we had a Chair of Gerontology at the university. This is not as easily done as I thought maybe it would do, but we are discussing 1609

Monday, 11 April, 1983 that with the President now, who was previou sly the Dean of Medicine, and the present Dean of Medicine so that has not been forgotten, although it's not that easily done in these days where there seems to be a shortage of money especially. I think that some people have different ideas. What is the gerontologist? Should it have to be a medical person? The feeling is, not necessarily. In fact, there might be advantage of maybe having a gerontolog ist, not a geriatrician, more a gerontologist. But that is still under consideration. MR. L. SHERMAN: That was going to be my next question, Mr.

Chairman, the question of establishment of a Chair of Gerontology at the Manitoba Medical College. I'm pleased to hear the Minis ter say that interest in establishing such continues, remains high and efforts and discussions are continuing in that direction. What is the current situation with respect to supply of gerontologists or geriatricians in Manitoba? Would the Minis ter prefer to deal with that when we come to the Commission, or can he offer some overview under this appropriation, Services to Seniors?

Perhaps we shouldn't be looking at geriatricians, at the moment, as clinical, professional, medical specialists, but gerontologists and people capable of working in the community as gerontologists seems to be a subject that we could address under this appropriation. Are we reaping the benefits of that program Centre that's now in place at the University of Manitoba? Are we producing gerontol og ists? Are we short of gerontologists? What is the current situation? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I don't believe that the centre has been in there long enough that we can really tell at this time, but we seem to be encouraged.

For instance a new gerontologist - I have trouble with that - a doctor in charge of the St. Boniface hospital who's very very good, we're very pleased to have him here. He has also done something that hadn't been done in the past. He has organized all the doctors in this field, those that have shown some interest pretty well all across Manitoba, with Dr. Ha mpton from Brandon and others, and they are meeting - it was something they never did before - they're meeting occasionally so it seems to be progressing quite well. We're happy with the result so far but there's still a long way to go I'm sure. MR. L.

SHERMAN: Is the activity and thrust that's under way in gerontology at the present time, Mr. Chairman, directed in substantial part to the development of greater plans, wider plans for extended care beds and extended care facilities for concepts like the day hospital such as the one that's in place at St. Boniface to which the Minis ter has just referred?

To the Adult Day Care Program, the extensions and expansions of that adult day care concept to a more sophi sticated, more hig hly refined home care system and range of home care programs and other services of that kind that are geared to keeping people in their homes and out of conventional hospital beds? Is the effort that's being made in gerontology focusing on any or all of those specific aspects of programming at the present time? In particular I'd be interest in hearing from the Mini ster where we stand in terms of developing extended care facilities.

I know a great deal of attention has been focused on utilizing Deer Lodge Hospital and the facilities there for general community extended care. There's certainly been ongoing discussions about utilizing the municipal hospitals for that type of thing under possible provincial ownership and operation; and certainly there's a great interest on my part and I expect on his, in expansion of Adult Day Care attached to personal care homes. Could the Minis ter comment on those aspects of programming for the elderly and gerontology in general? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Yes, I would think that Provincial Gerontologist is looking exactly at those programs and many others. I guess first of all they start to keep as many people out of institutions as we mentioned earlier. That's not only in psychi atry, that is in personal care homes and other hospitals so therefore that's in prevention, in fitness, in recreation, even in sports. That is something that we're looking with the department also of fitness and recreation.

That's one of the areas that we want to do and let the seniors help themselves an awful lot more than they've done in the past such as the Society for Seniors that are quite milit ant and they are quite effectively represen ting the senior people in our province. That is one of the areas. Then of course that is in the housing and I was going to say enriched but the Support Services also in housing. That'll be one of areas where these people will certainly be helpful. Then of course in the Home Care and the Day Care for the elderly also, Meals on Wheels and the respite care.

These are the programs and I would say even the last one probably is important, you don't hear too much about it, but I would hope that we can improve the situation in palliative care also. I think it's very impo rtant that these people can die in dignity and not afraid and alone in some room somewhere. So that is something that is done. We hope that it's going to be done in more hospitals and at times you send the people back. But it's working not only with the patient but with the family to make sure that they know what to expect and they can help their loved one die with piece of mind.

I think that all these programs from the fit to the dying, I think has to be covered in that. MR. L. SHERMAN: Is Adult Day Care �eing added progressively to personal care homes throughout the province? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, and in fact nearly every personal care home that we build this is something that we try to discuss with them to see if that could be done. There was a concern in Brandon that we don't share. They felt that the day care for the elderly should not be in a personal care home. They wanted an individual thing but that would be much more costly.

There wouldn't be probably the same service and the meals and all that so nobody is convinced, either staff of myself that it would be going in the wrong direction and we're pursuing this to try to have it mostly in the personal care home. 1610

Mon day, 11 April, 1983 It doesn't mean that there could never be another service but whenever there's a new personal care home built we try to have them work with a community through those programs also and maybe Meals on Wheels can provide meals and that kind of thing. MR. L. SHERMAN: Where does the Minis ter stand with respect to the concept of the day hospital, Mr. Chairman?

Would the Minis ter agree with me that that is a route and a direction in which hospital care, medical care has to be moving in Canada in the 19 80's and 19 90's and if so, what can we look forward to in terms of development of the day hospital, and the day hospital concept over and above the excellent prototype that already exists at St. Boniface Hospital? I would ask him if he could make reference in particular to Deer Lodge and to the municipal hospitals. Are we contemplating moving into development of the true day hospital operation and concept at either Deer Lodge or the municipal hospitals? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, we've been fairly lax I think and I wonder if we could not agree to discuss that when we come to the Commission. We're pretty

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-2-43b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 2nd hansardpdf 43b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0bbdd343c8987d26e832d1629f4b4bb6690b4115

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