May 20, 2004 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLV No. 34

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Hodder): Order, please!

This afternoon we would like to welcome some special guests to our Assembly.

We would especially like to welcome some students from West St. Modeste,

Labrador, in the District of Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair. They are ten students

who are in Level I, Level II and Level III, with their teacher Andrews Jones and

their chaperones Lisa Jones, Ruby Fowler and Carla Fowler.

Certainly, all members would like to give them a warm welcome.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: We would like to welcome in the Speaker's gallery, Chief

Misel Joe from the Conne River Indian Reserve. Welcome to our Assembly, Chief.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The Speaker would like to rule on a point of order raised on

May 19 by the Opposition House Leader relative to comments made by the Member

for St. John's West on May 18. Since the Speaker was not in the Chair at the

time of the alleged incident, the Chair deferred -

AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Speaker, she (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Yes, I want to make note of that.

The Chair deferred a ruling until consultations were held with the Deputy

Speaker and others, including the member.

Subsequent to these consultations, the Member for St. John's West rose in

her place and withdrew the comment. Therefore, issues raised in the point of

order have been satisfactorily resolved.

The Chair does not have any notice of statements by members, but will call

the heading in any case. Any statements by members? Statements by ministers.

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works, and

Aboriginal Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I rise in this hon. House today to inform members and the people

of the Province of government's intent to enter into negotiations with the

federal government and the Miawpukek First Nation to determine the terms and

conditions for a land transfer agreement to expand the Conne River Reserve.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RIDEOUT: Conne River is one of the fastest growing communities in

Newfoundland and Labrador, and with this growth comes a need for more land. I am

pleased that the process of expanding the Conne River Reserve is proceeding so

that the community has the space it needs to grow well into the future.

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador made a commitment to

reserve expansion in the recent Speech from the Throne, and we intend to move

swiftly to conclude the land transfer agreement. This initiative is consistent

with the government's objective to work in partnership with Aboriginal

realize their desire to become more self-reliant.

Mr. Speaker, as you did on behalf of all members, I would like to take this

opportunity to acknowledge Chief Misel Joe, leader of the Miawpukek First

Nation, who has taken time out of his busy

schedule to be in the House of

Assembly today. I would also like to express congratulations and recognition to

Chief Joe for receiving an Honourary Doctor of Laws degree at the recent

convocation of Sir Wilfred Grenfell College.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ANDERSEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

First of all, I want to thank the minister for a copy of his statement and to

say that we, on this side, fully agree. Mr. Speaker, when I became the minister

last February, we began work with Chief Joe, certainly, to expand his reserve.

There is no question that it is badly needed and we fully support it.

I, too, want to congratulate Chief Joe on his Honourary Doctor of Laws degree

from Sir Wilfred Grenfell College, but also, Mr. Speaker, say that I hope some

day that the rest of Canada will recognize Chief Joe for the tremendous work he

has done in promoting the reserve at Conne River.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, too, would like to congratulate Chief Joe on the tremendous work that he

has done in the Province. His name is, indeed, a household word throughout our

Province and he is highly recognized for the achievements that he has made on

behalf of his people. There have been, in recent times, a lot of good stories

that have come out Conne River area and you are to be commended for that, Sir.

I would also like to congratulate him on his Honourary Doctor of Laws degree

from Sir Wilfred Grenfell College. That is quite an achievement; one, I am sure,

that he, his family and friends are quite proud of him being bestowed with.

I would also like to point out, in closing, I would like to say Chief Joe,

that his brother Eric and I have been very good, close, personal friends for

more than thirty years now. Good luck.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Further statements by ministers? Oral Questions.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ANDERSEN: Mr. Speaker, on Tuesday the Premier expressed concern of

incidents that are occurring on George Street in downtown St. John's. No

doubt, Mr. Speaker, a concern to a lot of people in this Province. The Premier

also stated that he has contacted the Mayor of St. John's and the Chief of the

Royal Newfoundland Constabulary to discuss this serious issue. Mr. Speaker, the

Aboriginal communities on the North Coast of Labrador are losing far too many of

its young people, many through suicides. I ask the Premier: Will you also take

extra measures as well, to try and help solve the serious problems facing the

Aboriginal communities on the North Coast of Labrador?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for that question. It is obviously an

issue of very grave importance to the people of the Province and something that

we are all very sensitive to and very very aware of. We have taken an

initiative, of course, through the Budget to increase social workers in that

particular area of the Province. As well, I can make a commitment to the member

that if there are any particular matters he wants to discuss with me at any

particular point in time, then he does have our commitment as a government to

certainly pursue that very worthwhile situation. I must say, it is something

that is of great sensitivity to all of us. As Premier of the Province, this

particular incident on George Street, it drew attention - it has drawn public

attention and we have reacted to it. I can certainly give you my commitment as

Premier that any issues like that in your particular district, we will react in

a similar manner and a very responsible manner.

Thank you again for that question.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ANDERSEN: Premier, your government in its recent Budget cancelled

funding for Aboriginal constables in Makkovik and Rigolet, granted your Justice

Minister is giving full co-operation in trying to provide funding from the

federal government and talks are encouraging. Premier, this all takes time.

There is a federal election pending, and where the present funding from the

Province for these Aboriginal constables expires in June of this year: Will your

government extend this funding for an additional six months, at a cost of

$70,000, so the communities will not lose these highly regarded and trained

professionals until a permanent solution can be worked out?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. T. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Torngat

Mountains for his question.

As he is aware, he and I have been in almost daily contact about this issue

for the past couple of weeks. As I indicated to him yesterday privately, if the

Inuit communities are prepared to provide me with correspondence that they are

prepared to enter into a tripartite agreement involving the federal government,

the provincial government and all of the Inuit Aboriginal communities, than I am

prepared to take up with the Premier the view of interim funding to keep those

offices.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ANDERSEN: Again, Minister, I say to you, this all takes time and the

present funding runs out the last of June, and with the federal election

upcoming, it is going to take quite some time.

My final question is for the Premier. Since you became Premier you have

travelled to different parts of this country and also to foreign countries

trying to promote our Province. It is something that you have every right to do

as Premier and leader of your government. However, if you are serious, and I am

sure you are, in trying to help the Aboriginal communities on the North Coast of

Labrador: Premier, will you commit at your convenience, and as soon as possible,

to do a tour and see and hear from the people as to how we might work together

to address some of the problems they face on the North Coast of Labrador?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Once again, I thank the hon. member for a very valid question, a very

worthwhile suggestion, and I will make that commitment. I thank you for saying,

at your convenience, as you realize time is of the essence. We have a lot of

challenges before us, as a people and as a Province. But I will certainly do

that and I understand that my minister already has a trip planned there herself.

So it is certainly something that I will commit to do.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, it is reported in today's media that the Member for Terra

Nova, a member on the government side of the House, is very upset with a

decision of the government that he is part of, to close the HRE office in his

district.

We have stated from day one that this government makes their decisions

without consulting the public and without consulting even their own caucus.

Again, during the Estimates Committee meeting for the Department of Human

Resources, Labour and Employment, the minister stated that no cost analysis had

been done for any of the closed offices. They had not been conducted, nor were

any consultations held with the twenty affected communities.

Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister: Did she discuss the decision to close HRE

offices with the caucus and with members, like the Member for Terra Nova, as she

has previously stated? If so, why are government members, like the Member for

Terra Nova, now stating that they knew nothing about the decisions and voicing

their concerns publicly a full two months after the Budget has been tabled in

this Legislature?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources, Labour and

Employment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BURKE: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Human Resources, Labour and

Employment was tasked to make some decisions in relation to the Budget. We had

forty-six offices in the Province with a reduction, since 1997, of 9,000 cases.

Plus, in addition to that, we no longer do home visits. Mr. Speaker, we had to

respond to the changing demographics and the policies.

Mr. Speaker, I further add that any time any area loses any type of office,

or employment is transferred, it is a serious issue for that district. I

understand that myself, as my own district has lost an office in this whole

process.

Mr. Speaker, when we did the consultation process and we made our Budget

decisions, the caucus and the Cabinet were all notified, in a timely manner, of

our decisions.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, because words are important, I understand the answer to the

question is that there was no consultation but there was a notification. They

were notified in the public, like everybody else.

Mr. Speaker, the same member, the Member for Terra Nova, has also expressed

his displeasure with the discontinuance of driver examination services in Gambo.

Last evening at the Estimates Committee for the Department of Government

Services, he also stated that he feared for public safety with the closure of

the weigh scales in the Province.

I ask the Minister of Government Services, how can she claim she consulted

with the caucus when they feel they must voice their concerns publicly in order

to have them heard at all?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is, of course, free to ask this

question again directly to the minister, but I just want to make something very

clear with all members on this side of the House. There are no gag orders on any

of the members on this particular side of the House. In fact, they are quite

free to speak as they see fit.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: They are there to represent their districts. If they

take issue with decisions of this government, they are quite free to speak

exactly as they feel. They are there to represent their districts and they are

there to represent their constituents.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: You have to look at the reason for this action, Mr.

Speaker. The reason, Mr. Speaker -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A question has been asked by the Leader of the Opposition. The Premier, in

his right, is replying to the question, and I ask the Premier now if he would

continue his answer.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Let's put this in perspective, Mr. Speaker. The reason that these

difficult, tough decisions had to be made is because of the mess that was left

by the hon. people opposite, by the government of whom this Opposition Leader

was then the leader, who laid off thousands of people, who rolled back wages,

who had cutbacks. Then, the day after he was placed as leader of that particular

party, he went on a spending spree to start doling out money to get re-elected,

which was not successful, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate the answer from the Minister of Government Services,

acknowledging that she didn't consult with anybody either. If the Premier, the

one-man show, Mr. Speaker, had waited, I have a question for him later. He will

get a chance to answer in a minute or so.

Mr. Speaker, in the district-by-district breakdown, this now well-known and

infamous document that came from the government with a few minimal mistakes,

they are trying to suggest, in that breakdown of budget initiatives that we

received under the Freedom of Information Act, the referenced cuts are listed

for each and every district. The information was compiled by a division of the

Department of Finance.

Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Finance: Why are government members, two

months after the Budget was decided upon, now stating, publicly, that they were

unaware of the decisions that are in this document and unsupportive of the

decisions and very concerned about the negative impact these decisions are

having in their districts.

The direct question is: Is it true that this document was not provided to the

members -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the member now to complete his question quickly.

MR. GRIMES: - of the caucus and they knew nothing about these decisions?

Isn't that the fact?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Number one, it is not ten months since the Budget, and number two, they are

asking me why somebody is asking a question, their reason. You would have to ask

them the reason they are asking a question. How can I tell?

My department is responsible for preparation and issuing that Budget. The

document was not prepared by my department. The Budget was prepared by my

department, and I will answer questions pertaining to my department and the

Budget. The Leader of the Opposition is on a fishing game, wondering why someone

would ask the question. What a silly question to ask in the House of Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, since they refuse to answer a very

straightforward question - I asked, were they provided with the documents? - I

will provide the answer. They were not. He did not get around to saying that.

They were not given the information; there was no consultation.

Mr. Speaker, a question for the Premier. The last government member to raise

any concerns about a government decision was the Member for Windsor-Springdale

during the strike. He had a few minutes of fame on television one night. Since

his one-time comments, Mr. Speaker, he has been muzzled, brought back into line,

and not heard of since - not in the Legislature, not in his own district, not

anywhere in the Province. In light of the obvious growing concerns that exist

inside that government caucus, Mr. Speaker, I ask the Premier -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I ask the Premier: Will you, as the Premier, now

re-examine the negative decisions your government has taken without caucus

support, without their knowledge, without any consultation -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the member now to get to his question immediately.

MR. GRIMES: I am asking the question, Mr. Speaker.

- without their input, or will you find a way to muzzle the Member for Terra

Nova the same way you successfully muzzled and shut up the Member for

Windsor-Springdale, Mr. Speaker?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I indicated previously, we work as a team on this side of the House. There

are no -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, there are very, very important issues that

are of importance to the people of this Province. The kind of political games

that the Leader of the Opposition is playing in the House of Assembly is really

quite shameful, to be quite frank with you.

The other side of this is, when, of course, he was the Premier of the

Province - you talk about the sheep being led to the slaughter - when the Lower

Churchill agreement was underway and when they were going to decide on what they

were going to do with the Lower Churchill, I remember even specifically asking

the former Minister of Justice whether he had, in fact, even read the agreement.

I remember him saying, no, he had not even read it. He was going to read it

after it was signed.

Just recently, in the papers last week, we heard the former Premier say that

Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro could borrow another $10 billion. What la-la

land does he live in? What planet have you been on? Ten billion dollars. If

there was $10 billion available, why didn't you use the money from Hydro to

build the Lower Churchill yourself?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: No understanding whatsoever of the business of

government or what is going on. Unfortunately -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is altogether too much shouting across the floor. It is impossible to

hear what the Premier is saying.

I would ask the Premier now if he would finish his answer rather quickly.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: No wonder, Mr. Speaker, we have a problem in this

Province, a fiscal problem, because obviously the former Premier did not know

what the assets of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro were; did not know what the

borrowing power was; did not realize that he could not get the money to build

the Lower Churchill himself, but all the sheep were going to follow him to the

slaughter. He made a very -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the Premier to complete his answer quickly.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

He made a very, very accurate statement in this House on March 25, 1999, when

good at mathematics that I used to teach.

I agree with you. You are right.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

After that hilarious rendition of, We'll Rant and We'll Roar -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SWEENEY: - I have a few questions for the Minister of Government

Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace is asking a question and it is

impossible for the Chair, or anybody else, to hear what he is saying. The hon.

the member has the floor.

MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

May 24 is the highest volume traffic weekend in this Province. People are

packing up their vehicles and heading out to the country for the first long

weekend of the season. It is unfortunate these motorists have to face a highway

that will be filled with vehicles that are unchecked and possibly unsafe.

During Estimates last night, even the minister's own caucus members were

quick to voice their concerns that government has unnecessarily cut weigh scales

and staff. Did the minister do any research, I ask her, or analysis, before she

made this decision? Is she cutting for the sake of cutting, and endangering

public safety without a proper analysis being done? Does she agree with the

Members for Terra Nova, St. John's North, Stephenville, and Port au Port, who

think she is making the wrong decisions, Minister?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS WHALEN: Mr. Speaker, we have our weigh scales still in operation in

this Province checking our commercial - we have fifteen highway enforcement

officers on the road, checking the vehicles.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour

Grace.

MR. SWEENEY: Minister, I can only assume you do not agree with your

members from those districts.

Mr. Speaker, this busy weekend we will have compromised public safety, pay

more for ferries and park fees, and people will be forced to dig deeper in their

pockets to pay higher gas prices. While all this happens, the minister bungles

her way along, firing the Petroleum Pricing Commissioner, and then only to admit

under questioning last night that there really would not be any savings. She

plans to hire a new director to oversee the Commission, contrary to her earlier

comments that there would be savings.

Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister: Why has she needlessly put the gas

regulation process in chaos when we need it the most?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS WHALEN: Mr. Speaker, the gas pricing regulations are coming under the

PUB. That is an agency that is independent; it has the expertise and the

experience to regulate the gas prices.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: On a final supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I should say to the minister and her colleagues over there, read Hansard from

last night and the answers that she gave last night.

Mr. Speaker, on yet another issue that is important to all the people

travelling on the highways this weekend, the minister promised auto insurance

changes would be brought to this House on March 17, March 25, April 8, and May

17, and several other occasions since last October. It is now May 20, over two

months since it was first promised, and legislation cannot be tabled until

Tuesday of next week. She said that Cabinet approved the bill two weeks ago.

I ask the minister: When will she get her act together and bring forward

insurance reforms to help the consumers of this Province? Can she honour at

least one promise that the Premier has made?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS WHALEN: Mr. Speaker, the auto insurance has been drafted and it will

be in this session of the House for all hon. members to debate.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Health and Community Services.

Mr. Speaker, the Newfoundland and Labrador Division of the -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. COLLINS: - Canadian Cancer Society has recently released -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Labrador West has the floor. I ask that members give

him the attention that he deserves.

The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question, again, Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister of Health and Community

Services.

The Newfoundland and Labrador Division of the Canadian Cancer Society has

recently released a comprehensive study revealing some very alarming facts on

our health care system, specifically the cost that patients who live in rural

and isolated areas of our Province face, versus urban areas, to receive

treatment for cancer.

The study was headed up by Dr. Maria Matthews and was conducted over a three

year period. It provides a glaring example, I say to the minister, of where the

quality of our health care depends on our proximity to health care centres and

the size of our wallets.

The results show that some patients make decisions concerning their treatment

in relation to their financial status. Such decisions include: how long they

continue treatment; rationing their medications; extending the time between

follow-up visits; and choosing to go into a hospital rather than die at home.

This also applies to people who suffer from other illness, I say to the

minister.

I know the minister is aware of this study, and I want to ask her: What

action is she and her government going to take to address these concerns?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS E. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am very familiar with the report that the hon. member is speaking about. I

have discussed the report. I have had meetings with the President of the Cancer

Society and we will be meeting again to go through the recommendations. It is

the intention of this government that we will be reviewing the transportation

program relating to medical services. In addition, we will be also looking at

other programs which the hon. member has brought to my attention, to determine

what changes should be made.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to advise the minister that the study conducted applied to people

making one-time visits. Some people incurred expenses, personal expenses, of

over $5,000. We have in this Province today, as the minister alluded to, a

medical transportation fund that is totally inadequate, and the minister says it

is up for review. I want to say to the minister that many people in this

Province do not know such a plan even exists. This is reflected in the study,

showing that approximately 25 per cent of the participants in the study were

even aware. I ask the minister if she will take action through her department to

have this plan posted in the doctor clinics around the Province, and in the

hospitals around the Province, so that people are aware that they can apply for

some assistance, however meager it might be at this present time?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS E. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The program is on the government Internet site. In addition, I have discussed

the matter with our staff and we are looking at options as to how we will make

that program more publicly known.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

You have time for one short question and one short answer in your allocated

time.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to ask the minister if there is a time set for the meeting with the

authors of this report, to discuss their findings. How soon after her meeting

with them can the people of the Province expect a response?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS E. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have had one meeting with the Cancer Society already, during which we

discussed that report. This was followed up with a telephone conversation. My

officials are presently scheduling another report. I would like to have the

opportunity to discuss the recommendations with the President of the Cancer

Society as to how we will pursue it.

The other issue I would like to mention for the hon. House is that this study

was conducted, as the hon. member said, with regard to people in rural

Newfoundland, but the term of the study was for a three-year period over which

the hon. members were the government, so the recommendations related to a

program that was carried out by the previous Administration.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Twillingate & Fogo.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Education.

Minister, your government cancelled the school in L'Anse-au-Loup, deferred

the redevelopment of Herdman Collegiate in Corner Brook, and postponed

indefinitely the extension to Leary's Brook in St. John's, even though all

of these projects had the engineering and architectural work already underway.

All of these projects were top priorities for their respective school boards,

and the government of which I was a part. We had committed the necessary

funding.

Minister, the renovation and the extension to St. Bernard's Elementary in

Witless Bay, which happens to be in the Finance Minister's district, was never

a priority for the Avalon East School Board. In fact, two years ago they

recommended to government that the school be closed. I ask, Mr. Speaker, can the

minister tell me why the St. Bernard's project is going ahead while the other

projects have been cancelled or deferred?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, the situation with respect to St. Bernard's

is a priority. It has been identified as a priority. It was discussed fully, I

say to the hon. member, with officials of the Avalon East School Board and with

officials within the Department of Education.

Mr. Speaker, some difficult decisions were made several weeks ago with

respect to the budgetary process, and it is true and I concur with the hon.

member that yes, there was cancellation of a project and yes, there are other

projects that have been deferred.

With respect to Leary's Brook, I would like to add, Mr. Speaker, if I may,

that that issue has been in the media in the last little while. We met last week

with representatives of the board, the department, with representatives of the

school's council, and with parents as well, to address this issue. There is a

public meeting next week. I, personally as minister, will be visiting Leary's

Brook school, I believe it is Wednesday of next week, to see firsthand the

situation that has been addressed. There are many priorities in the Province

today, Mr. Speaker, and the appropriate decisions that have been made by this

government have been made with reference to the fiscal situation in which we

find ourselves.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Twillingate & Fogo.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, the minister said that St. Bernard's was a

priority for the school board. The Chair of the Avalon East School Board and the

Director of the Avalon East School Board came to government and said they wanted

to close the school two years ago. As late as last fall, when I was the

minister, it was not a priority for government. Now, I do not know what has

happened since you became minister but it was not a priority then.

Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Finance a question: Did he interfere with

the allocation of funds for school construction for his own political reasons,

as he tried to do with regard to this school when I was minister?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In 2002, the former government announced that there would be $4.5 million

allocated for the redevelopment of the Mobile school system. At a board meeting

in November of 2002, the school board of Avalon East voted unanimously to

establish this system as their number one priority. At a further meeting in

January of 2003, they reaffirmed that St. Bernard's should be a K to 6; St.

Partick's should close. St. Bernard's should be a K to 6 and the Mobile

development will continue as a 7 to 12. I met with that member when he was

minister, with the Chair of the Avalon East School Board, with his officials,

with the vice-chair of the school board, with representatives of the board, and

they have identified -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the minister now to finish his answer, quickly.

MR. SULLIVAN: - and I have it in writing, and he knew that. I have it in

writing from the board, a documented minute from the board. I attended a meeting

personally at the board in January 2003, that confirmed that. He was minister.

He knew it, Mr. Speaker, he knew it. His staff, Mr. Mel Hong, Chair of the

School Board -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the minister now to finish his answer in about ten seconds.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Mel Hong, Chair of the Avalon East School Board, attended that meeting.

Mr. Brian Shortall attended that meeting. Mr. Roger Lester attended that

meeting. Mr. Gary Hatcher from his department. I met with Mr. Harold Press from

his department. I met with the minister. They all knew that.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the member to take his seat. Time for one last question.

One very quick question from the hon. the Member for Twillingate & Fogo.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. REID: Can I have some order here, Mr. Speaker, from the zoo crew down

there?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. REID: Can I get some protection from the zoo crew?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

We have time for about a ten second question and about a ten second answer.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, the member knows that when the Mobile school was

made a priority that St. Bernard's school was supposed to close. Now, he can

yell and scream all he likes. That does not make what he is saying to be

factual.

Mr. Speaker, I ask the Premier, my question is this. On many occasions I

heard the Premier talk about that there would never be any decisions based on

politics. Now that it is obvious of what happened between the Minister of

Finance and the Minister of Education concerning school board funding, I ask the

minister -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the member now to finish his question quickly.

MR. REID: - to investigate it and have this decision overturned.

MR. SPEAKER: We have time for a very brief answer.

The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: It is obvious what is happening here, Mr. Speaker. In

November, 2002, the Avalon East School Board, at a unanimous -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: I would like to finish, Mr. Speaker. I would like to -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The minister has a very short time to complete an answer.

The hon. the minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SULLIVAN: I would like to hear, Mr. Speaker -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the minister.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would welcome everyone of these officials in a public forum with me on this

issue. I would challenge them to come to a public forum on this issue because

the Avalon East School Board in November, 2002 -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: - unanimous approval in January, 2003, when he was

minister. Unanimous approval that there would be a two-school system in Mobile;

a K to 6 at St. Bernard's -

MR. SPEAKER: I ask the minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. SULLIVAN: - closing St. Patrick's, and Grades 7 to 12 in Mobile.

Mr. Speaker, I consider that -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The time for Question Period has expired.

The Chair would like to make a comment. During Question Period today there

were a number of occasions in which unparliamentary language was used across the

floor. I refer to Marleau and Montpetit, page 525, which says, "Thus, the

use of offensive, provocative or threatening language in the House is strictly

forbidden. Personal attacks, insults and obscene language or words are not in

order."

Certainly, during the time that I have been in the House, there are certain

words that have been ruled unparliamentary. During Question Period today we

heard, across the floor, members on the government side being referred to as

puppets, and the Premier being referred to as the puppet master.

In Beauchesne and other references, that expression is clearly deemed

to be unparliamentary. I would ask the hon. Member for Twillingate & Fogo if

he would withdraw those words that were shouted across the floor of the House.

MR. REID: I withdraw the remarks, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Thank you very much.

MR. SULLIVAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised by the Minister of Finance

and President of Treasury Board.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, I think, in order for business and decorum to

occur in this House here - it is in writing in the member's office, when he

was minister; it is on the public record - the decision was made two years ago,

confirmed in January, 2003. For a Minister of the Crown who was there and knew

the difference, to absolutely come to this House and make a statement that is

absolutely false - the board has the records to prove it. I have the

correspondence. I gave it to him, when he was minister. I participated in it. To

put a reflection on me, in this House, for something that was absolutely false,

is not in the conduct and reputation of me, in the House. I ask the Speaker to

rule on (inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Throughout this session we have had a fair number of occasions when,

immediately after Question Period, points of order have been raised. These

points of order have often not dealt with the rules of the House. They have

nothing to do with infractions of the parliamentary proceedings. What has

happened is that the rules have been used in an attempt to gain the floor, to

participate in debate, to extend Question Period, to again refer to questions

that were asked or answers that were given. That is not the purpose of points of

order.

Points of order should deal with irregularities in the application of the

rules of the House. I would ask members if they would remember that and, for

reference, turn to page 538 of Marleau and Montpetit, and 539. Again, members

choose for themselves when they rise on a point of order. The Chair will decide

how many speakers will be made to a point of order.

In this particular case, there is not a point of order. The Minister of

Finance and President of Treasury Board, in his presentation, was indeed

extending the commentaries that were made in Question Period.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. GRIMES: To a new point of order, Mr. Speaker, arising from Question

Period.

Mr. Speaker, I mentioned this before. We are in the first session of a new

Parliament, in a new government, with a lot of first-time members. Mr. Speaker,

today a very serious question was asked in Question Period of the Minister of

Government Services, with respect to whether or not there was a plan -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I would like to be heard, if you don't mind.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition Leader has the floor.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

- a very serious question, with respect to whether or not there was a plan to

hire a director, a full-time director, in the Petroleum Products Pricing

Commission office in Grand Falls-Windsor. The minister refused to answer today.

The point of order is this, Mr. Speaker: Could you explain and instruct,

because we all need to make sure we understand and know and learn the rules, so

we understand that when a minister of the Crown gives an answer which was given

in the Committee last evening - and I have it here in Hansard, which is the

verbatim record or our Legislature. The question was asked: Are you looking at

putting a director? Yes, we are looking at putting a director. Will it be

full-time? Yes, it would be a full-time basis. The supervision would come from

Mr. Noseworthy? No, Mr. Noseworthy at the PUB and the full-time director.

The question was asked today and the minister refuses to answer it. The

answer, Mr. Speaker - and I would like for you to clarify this for the House -

is already, in case the ministers and the new members don't know it, a part of

the official record of the Legislature, and we just wanted to provide an

opportunity in Question Period for the minister to again confirm what she has

already stated, that they are going to hire a full-time director. The minister

had already said that. That contradicts her statement of two days ago, that they

are going to get rid of Mr. Saunders to save some money, they are going to hire

a full-time director instead.

Could you clarify, Mr. Speaker, for all members of the House, whether or not

this answer which was given and is now recorded in the minutes of this House, is

one that this minister, then, should have provided. I understand she can decide

to give no answer if she wants to, but why would you give one answer seven o'clock

in the evening and refuse to answer the question less than twelve hours later in

broad daylight?

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair again makes the same point that I made a few

moments ago, that these are matters which were raised in Question Period.

I refer members to Marleau and Montpetit . It is on page 431 and

continuing on page 432. It is entitled, "REPLIES TO ORAL QUESTIONS".

It says, "There are no explicit rules which govern the form or content of

replies to oral questions. According to practice, replies are to be as brief as

possible, to deal with the subject matter raised and to be phrased in language

that does not provoke disorder." It says that, ministers may (

a) answer the

question, (

b) defer their answer, (

c) take the question as notice, (

d) make a

short explanation as to why they cannot furnish an answer at that time, or (

e) they can say nothing.

It is entirely incumbent upon the minister to make any answer that she deems

appropriate, including making no answer whatsoever.

There is no point of order.

MR. HUNTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Member for

Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have to rise today and make a few comments on what the Leader of the

Opposition said about me, and attacked my character. I would like to say to the

Leader of the Opposition that I am nobody's puppet. I was not muzzled by

anybody. I was not encouraged or even spoken to by anybody -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HUNTER: - particularly the Premier, the Cabinet, my colleagues here

on this side. No one has ever twisted my arm to make any decision, unlike the

former Premier, when he tried to muzzle me in Botwood a year-and-a-half ago. He

did not realize that I was not on his side, but tried to muzzle me then.

My leader, our Premier, has never, ever, said anything to me to try to change

my opinion, twist my arm, or otherwise, or any other member of this side. I say

to the Member for Grand Falls-Buchans -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale will have an opportunity in debate

this afternoon to express his opinion. There is no point of order. We are merely

extending Question Period beyond the time normally allocated. Although the point

may be of interest to him and to all members, again there is no point of order.

I would suggest that we proceed with the regular program as outlined in our

Standing Orders.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Presenting reports by standing and select committees.

Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair would like, in accordance with the Internal Economy Commission Act,

to table the Report of the Commission of Internal Economy for the fiscal year

April 1, 2002 to March 31, 2003.

The hon. the Minister of Government Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS WHALEN: Mr. Speaker, I have two reports to table. I wish to table the

Annual Report On Operations Carried Out Under The Automobile Insurance Act For

The Period April 1, 2003 To March 31, 2004. The second report is the Report of

Public Tender Act Exceptions for the month of April.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Further reports? Notices of motion. Answers to questions for

which notice has been given. Petitions.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition on behalf of the constituents in my

District of Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair with regard to the recent decisions

made by the government regarding the Labrador Marine Services.

Mr. Speaker, people in my district are not happy with the decision that has

been taken by the government opposite to relocate the Labrador passenger ferry

from the community of Cartwright to the community of Lewisporte. The people of

Labrador are not happy with that decision because it will mean less service for

the people in Labrador for this summer.

In addition to that, Mr. Speaker, the fact that the government will use money

out of the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund, a fund that was set up and

designated for transportation use in Labrador communities, money from that fund

will now be used to support and pay for a ferry service to go into Lewisporte,

and that is not acceptable to the people of my district, Mr. Speaker. Nor is it

acceptable to a lot of other people in Labrador.

I had an opportunity to meet with the united Labrador group, which is the

Mayor of Labrador West, the council, the councillors of Happy Valley-Goose Bay,

all of the Chambers of Commerce across Labrador, all of the zonal boards across

Labrador, and most of the municipalities including the Combined Councils. Mr.

Speaker, they expressed their opinion and their dissatisfaction with the

decision that the government opposite had taken, and the fact that they were

going to have a lesser quality of marine services in Labrador this year but they

would be the communities that would pay for it. It would be the money from their

fund.

Mr. Speaker, there are many other priorities in my district in which this

money could be used for this year, but we are not going to be able to avail of

that because the minister wants to operate this service in his own district, in

the District of Lewisporte, because he made that commitment to the people there

in the election and now he is fulfilling that particular commitment.

Mr. Speaker, the people of my district believed the Premier. When the Premier

told them on a conference call that he would accept the recommendations of a

consultants report, they believed him; but, when the consultant recommended that

the ferry would, indeed, be based in Cartwright, then the Premier, his minister

and his government, ignored that study and, in fact, Mr. Speaker, reneged on a

commitment that they had made to the people of my district and other people in

Labrador.

This is why the people feel the need to petition the House of Assembly, to

petition the government, asking them to change their mind, to deliberate on this

some more, and to realize that what is happening here is not in the best

interests or the broader interests of all the people in Labrador. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, what it is, indeed, is a violation and injustice that has been embarked

upon the people of Labrador by that particular Administration.

Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate, because the Sir Robert Bond is an

older ship and the Auditor General - who is now the Minister of Health and

Community Services - a few years ago wrote, herself, when she was the Auditor

General, that this ship is old, it would soon need to have some repairs, and

would not be able to continue in that particular service or that particular

capacity.

Last year, the ferry moved to Cartwright-Goose Bay. It was operating in a

bay, not in rough water, Mr. Speaker. In an area where - and in a shorter

distance of only twelve hours. Now we are going to use this boat again out in

rough water and make a distance of thirty-six hours each way to provide the

service that nobody in Labrador -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The member's time has expired.

MS JONES: - I say to you, or very few in Labrador actually wants.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bay of Islands.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition on a very grave issue in the Corner Brook,

Bay of Islands, West Coast area. It is concerning the long-term care facility in

Corner Brook.

Mr. Speaker, I have a feeling that since the news came out in the last couple

of days, how long it is gong to take to build, that I will have more than one

petition to present in this hon. House. I will read the prayer of the petition

for the first time and then when I present the rest of the petitions I will

speak on the concerns and the needs of the people:

WHEREAS the existing health facilities in Western Newfoundland for extended

and chronic care patients are woefully inadequate to meet the demand; and

WHEREAS the Western Health Care Corporation anticipated the demand for a

long-term care facility in the region and commissioned a study in 2000, and that

the study was concluded in 2001 and recommended that a new facility be

constructed; and

WHEREAS the study was delivered to the Department of Health and Community

Services in August 2001, and follow up presentation was given in October 2001;

and

WHEREAS a conceptual plan was presented to the regional MHAs in January of

2002 that outlined the necessary infrastructure required to address the extended

care and chronic care needs of Western Newfoundland and Labrador;

WHEREUPON the undersigned, your petitioners, humbly pray and call upon the

House of Assembly to begin implementation of the plan to build the required

facilities as identified in the study.

Mr. Speaker, we have a situation in Corner Brook which is of grave concern to

a lot of people in Corner Brook, the long-term care facility. This issue has

been on the go in Corner Brook - on the West Coast there are some twenty-eight

people in acute care beds right now in the Corner Brook area who are waiting for

the long-term care facility requirements.

The reason why this is coming to light again on more of a front by the

residents, Mr. Speaker, is because of the comments made by the Minister of

Health and by the recent Budget. Before and during the election we all knew the

concern. It was raised by the Premier now, it was raised by the Member for

Humber East, the Minister of Justice, and it was raised by myself, of the need

and of the concern.

We, myself included, were always under the impression that once the new

Budget came in there would be funding there for the long-term care facility. As

we see with the $300,000 which was allotted, under questioning to the minister

yesterday, it is for some kind of land acquisition. To put a down payment on a

piece of land, to do some work on the land to see if the land is suitable, Mr.

Speaker, and do some preliminary work. This is not what the people of the West

Coast, the Corner Brook area anticipated.

The minister also said yesterday, under questioning, that if the funding

comes through for the next budget it will take several years to complete the

design of the long-term care facility.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The member's allotted time has expired.

Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: Leave has been granted.

MR. JOYCE: Mr. Speaker, I will clue up with that. I am sure I will be

bringing back further petitions on behalf of the residents of the West Coast,

Bay of Islands, Corner Brook area to express the need, the concern and then push

on this government the commitment they made during the election, that this

facility would be built in the four-year mandate that the Premier put in an

election promise to the residents of Corner Brook.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise at this time to present a petition on behalf of the residents of the

South Coast of Newfoundland, particularly Grey River, Franois, Ramea and

Burgeo concerning the closure of their HRE office as announced by this

Administration a couple of weeks ago.

Mr. Speaker, I have, on their behalf, also brought this matter to the

attention of the Minister of Human Resources, Labour and Employment, and, in

fact, raised several questions concerning this matter in the Estimates Committee

of the House two nights ago.

Mr. Speaker, just so everyone out here knows the effects of it, everybody is

pretty familiar with the geography. Burgeo is situated on the South Coast at the

end of a 154 kilometres of very difficult roadway. It is isolated, as are the

other communities that I just referenced. There three employees, in particular,

who are affected by the closure, but thousands of people who are affected by

this closure. I asked the minister in Estimates the other night: Did you do any

cost analysis to justify the closure? The minister's response was that she had

not. She could not give any cost analysis. I said: What happens to the closure

of the office? You are saving for three employees and a bit of light and heat

and whatever, have you got any statistics to show how that is offset by the

extra expenses of the people who have to come now from that area to the closest

office in Stephenville? There was no such analysis done, Mr. Speaker. The

minister admitted to such. She finally said: Well, it was based upon statistics

that we had vis--vis the number of files in the office.

Mr. Speaker, that was not the answer given by the minister initially when

this was announced to justify the closures, and there were no cost savings. The

truth will prove that there are no cost savings. Forget about the hardship that

the closure of this office does to the people. There is no justification for

doing it from a cost perspective. It may fit, as the minister says, to close

Stephenville Crossing, which happens to be in her area, to put people in

Stephenville. We are talking fifteen, twenty, twenty-five kilometres. It is not

near the hardship nor the cost factor in closing Stephenville Crossing to go to

Stephenville as it is to close Burgeo to take people to Stephenville. We are

talking days, in fact, that get added to someone in Grey River to try to get to

Stephenville. Not everybody has a computer. Not everybody has a phone. These

offices do not only serve the purposes of direct HRE. I mean these people go to

these offices for all kinds of assistance. Some people cannot read and write,

unfortunately. They go to their financial officers, who work in these locations,

to get their assistance. It may be filling out an old age form. It may be

getting a Canada Pension form. It is one thing to save money, and I am all in

favour of saving money where it is justified, but in the closure of Burgeo, Mr.

Speaker, there was no justification. None! The minister knows there was no

justification done in the case of Burgeo. So, if you are going to make these

tough decisions, for God's sake, make them based upon the facts and the

figures. This has to be done in order to justify these -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The member's allotted time has expired.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

MR. ANDERSEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition on behalf of all of the people in

Labrador. Mr. Speaker, I will read the petition and the prayer:

To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador in

Parliament assembled, the petition of the undersigned residents humbly sheweth;

WHEREAS the Auditorium Committee has the support of all Labrador communities

for an auditorium in Happy Valley-Goose Bay; and

WHEREAS the Committee has obtained $300,000 funding from the Department of

Canadian Heritage, dependent on provincial money and has raised $20,000 locally;

and

WHEREAS there is no performance space in Eastern Labrador and it needs to be

within walking distance for students to use;

THEREFORE we ask the government to provide the $2.4 million designated, but

now deferred, to begin construction during this season, as in duty bound your

petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, last year the Liberal government committed $2.4 million to build

an auditorium in Happy Valley-Goose Bay. Right now, there is no such facility in

the Upper Lake Melville area. It is the place where students from all across

Labrador gather for science fares and for different competitions; a place for

all of the people from Labrador to come together.

Mr. Speaker, I remember very well a lady from the North Coast of Labrador who

said that her son went to a competition and although he did not win, when he

came back she could see the confidence where he had gone out and talked with his

peers. Mr. Speaker, I think these people in Labrador - especially the students -

deserve such an auditorium.

Mr. Speaker, because of the short construction season in Labrador, if this

facility is not started very soon then we will have another whole year - as a

matter of fact, it will be two years gone, because if you do not start until

next summer then it will not be until the following spring when that building

will be ready to be occupied.

Mr. Speaker, I do not think there are many people in this Province who would

begrudge any part of this Province such a facility. Certainly, I can say that

the children and the people in Labrador are deserving just as much as anybody

else.

I have had several conversations with the Minister of Education to outline

the importance of such a building and certainly, Mr. Speaker, I hope that this

government will see, in the next few days, before the end of the school year, to

make such announcements that will give some comfort to the people in Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, this is a time when we promote tourism and -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The member's allotted time has expired.

MR. ANDERSEN: Thirty seconds to clue up?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. SPEAKER: Leave to clue up.

MR. ANDERSEN: Mr. Speaker, it is a time when performers are advertising

all across this Province to hold different concerts and exhibitions.

Unfortunately, the people in the Upper Lake Melville area and in Labrador do not

have such a facility.

Mr. Speaker, I will rise again tomorrow and the day after and so on, until

such a time as the auditorium in the Upper Lake Melville area becomes a reality.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's Centre.

MR. SKINNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today, Mr. Speaker, to present a petition on behalf of residents of

Carbonear-Harbour Grace, who have approached me with this petition and asked

that I present it here in the House of Assembly. I will read the petition, Mr.

Speaker, and then I will be able to elaborate on the contents of it.

WHEREAS the rights of grandparents have been neglected; and

WHEREAS this causes a violation of civil and human rights of grandparents and

grandchildren;

WHEREUPON the undersigned, your petitioners, humbly pray and call upon the

House of Assembly to make laws protecting the rights of grandparents as these

rights apply to the raising of grandchildren; and

As in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, I have here a petition of some 2,300 or 2,400 names signed by

grandparents and their supporters, people or grandparents who unfortunately find

themselves being denied access to their grandchildren. There are a variety of

reasons for this, Mr. Speaker. In most cases, based upon the interaction and

communication I have had with the people who have signed this petition, it is

because of child custody cases, where their sons or daughters and their spouses

have split up. In most other jurisdictions in North America, including the

United States and Canada, grandparents are assumed to have, or presumed to have,

the right to have visitation rights to their grandchildren should a child

custody case or should a family split up.

In Newfoundland and Labrador, they have to apply for that right. In some

cases that right may be contested and a very lengthy and expensive legal battle

can occur, and has occurred many times, Mr. Speaker. There is an association

called the Canadian Grandparents Rights Association, which is based in British

Columbia, which assists and supports grandparents and their families in

maintaining and re-establishing family ties. It has branches throughout many

provinces of Canada.

There has been legislation passed, Mr. Speaker, in New Brunswick, in Alberta,

in the Yukon, and in British Columbia, where grandparents have leave to apply

for custody and to have access to their grandchildren. Mr. Speaker, the

grandchildren, when they are being raised by their parents, before the split in

the family occurs, obviously have very warm and loving relations with their

grandparents. The trauma of having the mother and father split up sometimes is

very much compounded by the fact that they are no longer, then, allowed to visit

with their grandparents.

I will present this petition, as I said, on behalf of the people who have

signed it, some 2,300 to 2,400 people. I have already spoken to our Minister of

Justice. He has already had some people working on researching this issue for

us, and we hope to be able to come back to the House with some legislation that

will allow the grandparents in Newfoundland and Labrador the same rights and the

same access that grandparents in many other jurisdictions in Canada and North

America enjoy.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have been waiting here in the queue for so long that I almost forgot what

my petition was. Nevertheless, I will continue on.

I am glad to see the Minister of Education sitting there today, listening so

attentively. I understand that he has had his meeting with the new school board

for the Avalon area, and I hope he has raised the concerns of the parents and

students of Carbonear regarding their school, St. Joseph's.

I have another petition today to present. I have read the prayer so often now

already, if you would indulge me, I will not read it today.

The gist of it all is that the parents and students themselves are very

concerned about what is going to happen in September. There has been no

assurance from the outgoing school board, or now defunct school board, as to

what will happen. There seems to be a lack of communication between the now

defunct school board and the parents' committee as to what is happening. There

is no tender called for the necessary renovations to St. Francis in Harbour

Grace, that is going to accommodate some 200-plus student. There is no tender

call for the renovations to Davis Elementary in Carbonear, which, by the way, is

the same age as St. Joseph's. Davis Elementary - if you looked at both

schools, you would say that St. Joseph's Elementary is probably in better

condition than Davis, but the decision was made because of some engineering

study that was done on both schools and it was a close tie, I say, Mr. Speaker,

as to which of the two should remain open, or if both should close.

The reality of the situation is, if schools are in the condition of

thirty-five to forty years of age, both of them should be closed. Air quality,

the width of the corridors, fire safety regulations, all of that stuff, just has

not been kept up to date over the past thirty-five or forty years.

The parents, again last Saturday, had a joint motorcade. The amount of

support is gathering, is growing, for this particular problem. The students

themselves, and parents, the committee, formed a human chain around the school

on Saturday past and a local paper was there and took all the pictures. It

should be in the paper next week, for that matter.

The interesting part - the new twist coming to this now - is that a prominent

St. John's lawyer has decided to take this case upon himself, and the end

result, I guess, is that government will be taken to court, or the new school

board. I think it would be a terrible statement to make that the new school

board would find itself spending money now on court costs, or the government

itself, at a time of restraint, fighting a lawsuit against this particular

initiative.

What I am asking the minister to do, and the government to do, is to

reconsider this. Put it at least on hold for another year. Give the new board

that has been formed and set up with their - I know it is early in their

mandate. They have only had one meeting - but to at least, on behalf of the

parents and students of Carbonear, St. Joseph's and Davis Elementary, to give

them a chance to make their case to a new board; because, obviously, now that we

have a bigger model, their voice is going to be smaller.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The member's allotted time has expired.

MR. SWEENEY: By leave, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. SWEENEY: Mr. Speaker, three minutes, after waiting so long, seem to

have gone so quickly, but I am sure, Minister, that you have understood my case.

With that, I will present the petition and, on Tuesday, I guess, I will be

back with another one as they keep coming in.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Motion 4, first reading of a bill,

An Act to Amend The Mineral Act. (Bill 22)

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the hon. the Minister of

Natural Resources shall have leave to introduce a bill entitled,

An Act To Amend

The Mineral Act. (Bill 22)

Is it the pleasure of the House that the hon. the Minister of Natural

Resources shall have leave to introduce said bill?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Natural Resources to introduce a bill,

"An Act To Amend The Mineral Act," carried. (Bill 22)

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the said bill be now read a

first time.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the said bill be now read a first time?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

CLERK: A bill,

An Act To Amend The Mineral Act. (Bill 22)

MR. SPEAKER: This bill has now been read a first time. When shall the

said bill be read a second time? Now? On tomorrow?

AN HON. MEMBER: On tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: On tomorrow.

On motion Bill 22 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, Motion 5, to ask leave to introduce a bill, An

Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act. (Bill 21)

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the hon. the Minister of

Government Services shall have leave to introduce a bill entitled,

An Act To

Amend The Highway Traffic Act. (Bill 21)

Is it the pleasure of the House that the hon. the Minister of Government

Services shall have leave to introduce said bill?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To

Amend The Highway Traffic Act," carried. (Bill 21)

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the said bill be now read a

first time.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the said bill be now read a first time?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

CLERK: A bill,

An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act. (Bill 21)

MR. SPEAKER: This bill has now been read a first time. When shall the

said bill be read a second time? Now? On tomorrow?

AN HON. MEMBER: On tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: On tomorrow.

On motion, Bill 21 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Motion 6, to ask leave to introduce a bill,

An Act To Amend The Income Tax

Act, 2000 No. 2. (Bill 20)

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the hon. the Minister of

Finance and President of Treasury Board shall have leave to introduce a bill

entitled,

An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act, 2000 No. 2. (Bill 20)

Is it the pleasure of the House that the hon. the Minister of Finance shall

have leave to introduce said bill?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To

Amend The Income Tax Act, 2000 No. 2," carried. (Bill 20)

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the said bill be now read a

first time.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the said bill be now read a first time?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

CLERK: A bill,

An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act 2000, No. 2. (Bill 20)

MR. SPEAKER: This bill has now been read a first time. When shall the

said bill be read a second time? Now? On tomorrow?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: On tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: On tomorrow.

On motion, Bill 20 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Motion 7, to ask leave to introduce a bill,

An Act To Amend The Memorial

University Pensions Act. (Bill 23)

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the hon. the Minister of

Finance and President of Treasury Board shall have leave to introduce a bill

entitled,

An Act To Amend The Memorial University Pensions Act. (Bill 23)

Is it the pleasure of the House that the hon. the Minister of Finance and

President of Treasury Board shall have leave to introduce said bill?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To

Amend The Memorial University Pensions Act," carried. (Bill 23)

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the said bill be now read a

first time.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the said bill be now read a first time?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

CLERK: A bill,

An Act To Amend The Memorial University Pensions Act.

(Bill 23)

MR. SPEAKER: This bill has now been read a first time. When shall the

said bill be read a second time? Now? On tomorrow?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: On tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: On tomorrow.

On motion, Bill 23 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Motion 8, to ask leave to introduce a bill entitled,

An Act To Create A

Pension Plan For Provincial Court Judges, Bill 24, now be read a first time.

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the hon. the Minister of

Finance and President of Treasury Board shall have leave to introduce a bill

entitled,

An Act To Create A Pension Plan For Provincial Court Judges. (Bill 24)

Is it the pleasure of the House that the hon. the Minister of Finance and

President of Treasury Board shall have leave to introduce said bill?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To

Create A Pension Plan For Provincial Court Judges," carried. (Bill 24)

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the said bill be now read a

first time.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the said bill be now read a first time?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

CLERK: A bill,

An Act To Create A Pension Plan For Provincial Court

Judges. (Bill 24)

MR. SPEAKER: This bill has now been read a first time. When shall the

said bill be read a second time? Now? On tomorrow?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: On tomorrow.

On motion, Bill 24 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Order 1, to move that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply to

consider the Estimates, I guess, by agreement, of the Legislature and Executive

Council.

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that I do now leave the Chair for

the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Order 1, Committee

of Supply.

It is the pleasure of the House that I do now leave the Chair for the House

to resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on said bill?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr.

Speaker left the Chair.

Committee of the Whole

CHAIR (Fitzgerald): Order, please!

The Committee of the Whole is now ready to receive debate on the heading of

the Legislature, the House of Assembly.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is an opportunity to discuss, I guess, in detail, some of the Estimates

or process of the Budget not discussed in Committee. For those who may be

watching, or in the gallery, the thirteen departments in government, many of

them are discussed in what we call the Committee level, outside of the House of

Assembly, mornings, afternoons, or in the evening, related to every detail that

is in the Budget.

The Minister of Environment, for example, why is his or her department

spending x number of dollars in transportation? Why is such-and-such spending so

much on communications? That is the process of debate that we are involved with

right now with respect to the Budget.

Part and parcel of the Budget, there are areas such as the Consolidated Fund

Services, the Legislature and the House of Assembly operations, which govern the

place that we sit in, the officers of the House, independent officers of the

House, whether it be the Auditor General, whether it be the Child and Youth

Advocate, whether it be the Privacy Commissioner, whether it be the Consumer

Advocate, all of those officers who report to the House fall under the debate,

and we are about to debate their budget here this afternoon.

Mr. Chairman, the Legislature, itself, and what we are doing right now - I

would be happy to answer any questions, but I guess for members understanding,

or even more complete understanding on both sides of the House, that when it

comes to the Legislature of the Province, this is not governed necessarily by

just government members or ministers. There is a Committee of the Legislature

which involves - both the Official Opposition have representatives on that

committee, as well as members on this side of government, who ultimately make

the decisions concerning all of those areas, whether it be financial, human

resource or otherwise, that deal with the estimates and what is being put

forward. Now that committee does not always agree, obviously, Mr. Chair, but

generally speaking the committee works very well.

The jurisdiction under the Legislature that we speak about and what we are

speaking about today essentially talks about, or the decisions made associated

with this subhead and this area of the Budget are made by that committee known

as the Internal Economy Commission. That is the Speaker, Deputy Speaker, the

Opposition House Leader by statute, enactment of the Legislature, myself, in my

role as Government House Leader by statute, and two other members of government

and one other member of the Official Opposition.

The House of Assembly is comprised of - in terms of the operations within the

House: members salaries; private member's salaries; members salaries generally

as private members; staff people that we get as a member when we are elected; an

administrative assistant who works with us in our capacity of fulfilling our

duties to the district we represent, responding to constituent calls, dealing

with a variety of issues, from social housing to: How do you start your own

business? Where do I access funds? Is there money available from government to

help me with what I am doing? - to agricultural concerns, social justice

concerns, you name it; employment concerns, issues related to infrastructure,

particularly in rural Newfoundland. You name it, and members in this House

received calls on it, get inquires on behalf of their constituents. It is more

or less a front line in many ways. We are all advocates, to some degree.

The Member for Bonavista North, a good friend and colleague of mine. We have

chatted about this, but when it comes down to a constituent who phones us, that

person phones with an anticipation that as a member we can at least try to help,

do our best to get an answer and try to resolve the problems that are faced

before us. Really, we are an individual advocate for constituents that call on

our behalf.

Mr. Chairman, part of the House operations, as well, deals with the

allowances that members get. Those allowances are not for members' personal

use - while some people may think it - but those allowances are for the use of

back and forth to our districts in the expenditure of how we get to where we are

supposed to get. I mean, there are districts that have far greater geographical

challenges than others. I will name a few.

The Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair, it takes a little while longer

to get around her district than it would for me, for example, in the area of

Kilbride, the Goulds and that area. The Member for Torngat Mountains, both of

these members, I know would have to have the utilization of air services or

helicopter services to get them into some of the more remote communities within

their districts. The Member for Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune, another example of a

spread out district. The Member for Bonavista South, the Member for Bonavista

North, the Member for Baie Verte, the Member for St. Barbe, the Member for The

Straits & White Bay North, the Member for Humber Valley, for example, all

have different geographical challenges than members who live, say, in urban

areas. Members who may reside in Corner Brook, or parts of the Northeast Avalon,

or members whose districts are all confined within Grand Falls-Buchans. I know

it is more of a challenge geographical out that way than where I am to, but

certainly not as much as some of our own colleagues.

The allowances that we are voting on right here now reflect, I think fairly

accurately, the realities that face certain members in certain geographic areas,

that tries to go towards accommodating, on the one hand, the ability that we

must have as members to service our constituents and part of that means we must

get to where they are. On top of that, the ability of the member to go back and

forth; get back to his or her district to make sure that they are there. That

could be quite expensive for members who have larger districts. Just ask anybody

who lives on the Northern Peninsula. Ask the members on this side who fly back

and forth. Ask the members from Labrador how expensive that can be, and they

will certainly indicate it to you. Generally speaking, that is part of what we

are going to be voting upon today as well.

With respect to the House of Assembly Operations, each and every - if I could

stoop down here for a second and haul one out. This is an Order Paper that is

printed everyday. We have another document that is printed everyday, it is

called Hansard. These are services that are provided to us simply and wholly by

our staff of the House of Assembly, because without them this place would not

exist. The official record of the House would not exist. The service provided by

the Clerks at the Table, a service that is absolutely necessary for all of us to

be able to do our job fundamentally, or a very important aspect of our job,

which is to debate issues of importance and of concern to the people of the

Province in this Legislature but also to debate legislation that is brought

forward by government to - in the thrust and throe of that debate, that sort of

adversarial system - which ultimately works by the way. It ultimately does work.

The merits and demerits of a piece of legislation or an issue can get debated,

but all of that is enhanced and enabled by the staff of the Speaker's Office

and by Hansard, who transcribe the official record of this House. Whatever is

said in this Legislature during the day's proceedings, we come in the next day

and that is recorded for us. A copy is laid upon our desk so that we can refer

to what occurred yesterday on the official record of the House of Assembly.

Very, very important.

Another function that is provided, in terms of a service to members, is the

Legislative Library. A very important function. That is where our legislative

history is held. At any time if a member has a wish or a need to access a

particular or peculiar document, a particular or peculiar document in some point

in history, whether that was ten years ago, twenty years ago or thirty years

ago, that the Legislative Library provides a function for members by where they

can go to the library, get the record of the House, look back at what has

occurred in history, and get the service they need. Also, while that is not

exclusively what happens in the Library, like any other library, it has a fairly

lengthy catalogue of materials, periodicals and journals and a whole - what you

would see in many libraries that would be peculiar and particular to the work of

members in this House as we move forward in providing what we believe to be a

service to the people of the Province who elected us in the first instance to be

here.

One of the functions - the House of Assembly budget has grown over the last

little while, for good reason. That is there are a number of independent

officers of the House who report - not to any department in government, not to

the Premier's office, but by the very nature and function of who they are, the

service they provide, the reason for their existence - that they report directly

to the House of Assembly. They do not report to a Minister of the Crown. They do

not report to a private member. They report to forty-eight members of the

Legislature, one time, every year. Of course the groups that I am talking about,

first of all, is the Auditor General of the Province. The Auditor General is an

independent agency, an independent officer of this House, who once a year puts a

report on the table and on the desk of each and every single member. In 1996, I

served in the capacity of Chair of the Public Accounts Committee. Actually, the

Auditor General of the day is now the Minister of Health and Community Services,

so I had the opportunity to work with the Auditor General's office and gain a

fairly intimate understanding. Actually, today's Finance Critic was also a

member of that Committee when I was Chair of it.

I think there are a little over 220 agencies. That includes all of the

departments within government that the Auditor General is responsible for

auditing on a year over year basis. That is done from a compliance point of

view. Was the money that was passed in the Legislature in a particular budget,

for example, this Budget, spent according to the legislative frameworks that are

set out?

Each and every year, the Auditor General, on a rotating basis, has a number

of departments that he or she looks at, where they go in and have a look at all

of what has transpired within that Crown corporation, within that department or

whatever agency they are involved with. Then, that is reported directly to the

forty-eight members of the House, again, not to a minister, not to the Premier,

but directly to all of us. That provides, in our view, one of the systems of

accountability and one of the systems of the independence and the importance of

that office and why it should be independent.

Another officer of the House is also critical to the operations of the system

of democracy that we enjoy and that we have the absolute privilege and pleasure

of participating in as members, and that is the Office of the Chief Electoral

Officer. That officer's budget is funded and we will be debating some of that

here today. I want to give an overview, and that is what I am up to.

That person is responsible for the administration of elections in this

Province, of by-elections, and there are appropriations. He is also the

Commissioner for Members' Interests where he has a look at all members in

terms of their private capacity, you know, if there were any private interests

that would put them in a conflict of interest in government or as a member of

the Legislature. This officer is now performed by a gentleman by the name of Mr.

Wayne Green. He has done an admirable job in that position, I want to say that,

as well as Mr. Noseworthy, the Auditor General currently.

Another important function of the operation - and the Office of the Chief

Electoral Officer reports to the Internal Economy Commission, and reports to

this Legislature; again, not to a government member, not to an individual member

in the House, not to a minister, but to the forty-eight men and women who have

the privilege of sitting here and debating legislation.

In recent years, there were a couple of others, the Office of the Citizens'

Representative, formerly known as the Ombudsman. That was the former name of it.

It was changed to the Citizens' Representative. That person, again, is an

independent officer of the House of Assembly. He doesn't report to anybody in

government exclusively, but reports directly to the House of Assembly through

the head of the department, I guess, which is the Speaker of the House.

The Citizens' Representative is there for the average citizen who may feel

aggrieved by an action that government has taken, or a department has taken,

whereby that person, in his capacity, Mr. Fraser March, in his capacity as the

Citizens' Representative - I think this is his third year, now, in operation -

in his capacity as the Citizens' Representative can take action. If there has

been an injustice that has been put upon somebody, if somebody who feels

aggrieved and has a legitimate and bona fide reason for feeling aggrieved, that

the system of government, the bureaucracy of government, has somehow let them

down or not dealt with them fairly or not dealt with them squarely, then the

power that the Citizens' Representative has is clear. The Citizens'

Representative has the ability to launch an inquiry and reports, again, directly

to the forty-eight men and women who sit in this particular Chamber. That is a

critical - again, a critical - function of the democracy that we sit in. It is

an oversight protection mechanism for the average citizen who has nowhere else

to go; but, from our viewpoint - and I say our in terms of all members - we have

set upon ourselves to put in place an office that can represent citizens who

have a place to go to launch their grievance, to have it investigated and, if

there is legitimacy to it, to have action taken upon it. That is one of the

other independent offices of the House.

One of the other offices is the Office of Child and Youth Advocate. Again,

this office was put in place and it served - again, it would be remiss of me not

to compliment, Mr. March on the job that he has done as the Citizens'

Representative.

Next is the Office of the Child and Youth Advocate. This is another

independent office of the Legislature that reports directly to all forty-eight

members, and it is primarily concerned with the issues related to children.

CHAIR: Order, please!

I remind the Government House Leader that his time has expired.

MR. E. BYRNE: I am just about conclude, Mr. Chair, if it would be okay.

CHAIR: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

CHAIR: By leave.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Office of the Child and Youth Advocate, that role, that officer, is in

place to look at the interests of children, against the grid of government

policy and government, to see how children are being served. How are the

policies of government serving the children of the Province? Where have children

and children's interests not been served? Again, in an expression of the

forty-eight members in this Legislature who supported this particular initiative

when it was brought forward, this is an example, again, of the level of interest

and level of commitment and level of compassion that members, all of the men and

women in this House who were elected, have towards serving the interests of

children.

Would we like to be able to do more? Yes, we would. Would every member like

to be able to provide more funding to take care of the Citizens'

Representative, to take care of the Child and Youth Advocate, to take care of

the Auditor General, to take care of having more staff in the House of Assembly,

to be able to provide a better service in terms of the Legislative Library, to

be able to provide more staff to members, to help members out. Of course, we

would. The fact of the matter is, all of our budgets - this year, last year, the

year before, next year and the year after - are finite. We try to do the best we

can and try to, particularly within the Legislative branch, govern by the

Internal Economy Commission, which is all members' representative, trying to

bring to - and I believe we do, for the most part, achieve consensus on the

issues as they relate to the Legislature.

Finally, the issue of the Office of the Information and Privacy Commission.

There is a budget allocation associated with that there, as members have seen.

It is our intent, this is an initiative brought forward that was associated with

the bill, the Citizens' Representative, brought forward by a former Minister

of Justice and Attorney General, who is now the Opposition House Leader, my

counterpart in the Legislature, and the piece of legislation that eventually

passed - there was some difficulty, for legitimate and bona fide reason, while

they were the government, in terms of enacting that part of the legislation.

There were some now, but we are about ready to enact that part of the

legislation, which is the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner,

and we are hopeful that office will be up and running very soon.

With that, Mr. Chair, and to members opposite, thank you for providing me

leave. That is sort of a top-of-the-trees assessment, a

summary, without getting

into the Budget details, which we certainly can, of what the Legislature is,

what compromises the Legislature, what is the intent and purpose behind the

subheads and titles under the Budget in Legislature, and how important the

function of the Legislature is to the people of the Province.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Grand Falls-Buchans.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am pleased today to respond to the Budget Debate on one

section of the

Budget, which is the Legislature. As the Government House Leader just said in

his speech, the Legislature itself is the nucleus of government and provides a

very, very important function. The Legislature, of course, is governed by the

Internal Economy Commission and it is important, I guess, for the members of the

general public to know that the Internal Economy Commission is made up of

members on both sides of the House. Normally, everything that comes before the

Commission always concerns all members of the House and it is debated in that

particular Committee and a resolution is always found to the satisfaction of

both sides of the House, a very important function provided by the Legislature.

Of course, the duties of the Legislature under this heading have now been

expanded because in recent years, with the bringing on of different advocates, I

guess, is one way to describe the Citizens' Representative, the Child and

Youth Advocate, and Information and Privacy Commissioner, that the role of the

Legislature and the Internal Economy Commission has expanded.

I am pleased to stand here today as the Member for Grand Falls-Buchans and a

member of the Official Opposition party that said that we were quite in

agreement ourselves this year in taking

part in a restraint measure of this

government as it pertains to the actual constituency allowance of the Members of

the House of Assembly.

As the Government House Leader just said, all of us are from different places

around our Province and many of us have to travel quite a distance to provide

good service to our members. It is particularly difficult for people in

Labrador, in particular, and those who have to travel even by helicopter and

boat to make sure that the wishes of their constituents are brought forward and

well represented.

It is interesting that today, when we are talking about the Legislature, the

report now that is of the Commission of Internal Economy for the fiscal year

April 1, 2002 to March 31, 2003, is now available and it has been placed on our

desk. It is interesting to see what kind of topics the Internal Economy

Commission discuss from time to time with the running of the House. In fact,

this is public knowledge but I might throw this out because it would probably be

interesting for the members of the general public. One of the things that the

Commission agreed to was that still photographers be permitted on the floor and

galleries of the House of Assembly during the Throne Speech and the Budget

Speech, but, the photographers could not obstruct the television cameras or be

in the way of television coverage of the proceedings. That has been a good move

on behalf of the Legislature, to provide televising of the House of Assembly,

because many people around our Province now do not have an opportunity to come

into St. John's and actually sit in the Legislature and be a part of the

debate that is going on every day while the House is in session. Now they can

sit in the comfort of their own homes and follow all the debate and see what is

being said and what decisions are being made by government and what questions

are being posed by the Opposition. They can even see whether or not the members

are actually representing their concerns by way of what they say in the House

and sometimes by what they do not say in the House.

Television has had a huge impact on the government, and the word getting out,

and the message, and making people more aware all around this Province of what

is being done here. I only wish that television coverage could be supplied to

some rural communities that do not have it right now. It was the idea, in the

initial stages of providing television coverage of the House of Assembly, that

every community in Newfoundland and Labrador would have the opportunity to view

the House of Assembly, but I know for certain that there are still communities

out in our Province that do not have that hookup capability. I think it is a

disservice. I would encourage this government to look into the matter and see if

that coverage can be extended to those communities that do not have it right

now.

When you look at the fact that part of the expense that comes under the

Legislature is actually the printing of the Hansard. The printing of the Hansard

is a verbatim report of everything that is said in the House of Assembly on a

daily basis. It is a book like this. This is the actual book. No matter what is

being said it is all recorded in the Hansard book. Now sometimes that can be a

good thing or it can be a bad thing because all of us, as politicians, know that

there is no such thing as off the record. Absolutely no such thing as off the

record. Many times we are confronted by the media and we may think that it is

off the record, but everything you do and say - mostly everything you say. As a

matter of fact, everything you do. If you are on camera people can see what you

are doing and they can hear what you are saying. But, this is the printed form

of everything we say in the House of Assembly. It is a good service. It is

definitely a good service because many times we can all be taken to task for

something we may have said. Of course, if you are a Minister of the Crown

anything that you say you are saying it on behalf of the government that you

represent. You can definitely be held to task on that particular item.

In fact, last night in the Estimates Committee, when I questioned the

Minister of Government Services, there was a statement made with regard to the

actual appointing of a director to replace the pricing commissioner in Grand

Falls-Windsor. She was reported, I heard her, and it has been stated in the

Hansard today that she actually did say that, that there would be a director to

replace the pricing commissioner in Grand Falls-Windsor. She is a Minister of

the Crown and she speaks for government every time she speaks, as would any

minister on the other side of the House. That is considered to be a statement on

governments behalf.

This particular Hansard is a very effective tool and the fact that it is now,

of course, available through the Internet services. Everything that is said is

recorded and anyone, anywhere, in any part of the world can now log on to the

House of Assembly and they can read for themselves exactly what was said at any

particular time while it was being recorded. So it is a very effective

communication tool. As I said before, sometimes it can act to the detriment of

some members and maybe to the betterment of others, but a very effective tool.

Most recently we have added the Office of the Citizens' Representative, Mr.

Fraser March. The ordinary things that would come before an Internal Economy

Commission meeting would be with regards to staffing matters, regards to

workload, rental spaces, issues with regard to travel, because we all know that

those particular advocates have to service all areas of the Province.

I know in particular when we had the Badger flood, February 15, 2003, there

were some issues regarding the actual payment of householders regarding flood

damage. In two or three situations the Citizens' Representative was called in

to a meeting whereby some of the concerned citizens voiced their concerns. I

believe that matter is still under review by the Citizens' Representative. The

matters that come before the Citizens' Representative are not only St. John's

matters, even though the office is here. The Citizens' Representative and his

staff would have research involved, travel involved, and meetings all over this

Province to resolve the issues that cannot be resolved through normal

interaction between citizens and government. So a very important function is

played by that office.

We can never say too much about the Child and Youth Advocate. There are so

many issues today in our Province concerning young people. We hear them

everyday. When a parent or guardian exhaust all possibilities of resolving

situations about young people and young people themselves exhaust all avenues,

there must be another final level you can take your issue to if you cannot get

it resolved. We realized that as the former Administration. For that very reason

we decided - after lobby from a great number of groups and interested people -

we would actually provide legislation for a Child and Youth Advocate. That

office is now up and running. Like any office, they start off small, and then as

a result of being able to look after a great many problems, their lists of

people wanting things looked into continues to grow.

I know as a government, previous to this one, it was always difficult to find

money to look after these very necessary programs and offices, but sometimes you

have to make decisions that will affect the health and well-being of our

citizens. Sometimes you cannot compromise health and safety. Many times in the

past - and I am sure in the future - you may have to show a deficit on health

and social issues, and public safety issues, that there is absolutely no way

around. We have seen that many times ourselves when we were puzzled, as a former

Administration, having difficult decisions given to us; difficult matters that

would come before us and knowing, many times, that we did not have the funding

in place to look after the concerns.

I think back to a few of them, when we looked at the waiting lists for

cardiac surgery in our Province. That almost seems to be a non-issue at this

point, although many people are still waiting, but the list is not as intense as

it used to be. There was a request that came to the previous Administration to

offer more cardiac surgeries every week, and once you make a decision to go down

that road you can never do it as a one-time decision to provide more cardiac

surgeries for five or six months. It must be done right into the future. So, by

doing that, that cost a lot of money, but we were prepared to show a deficit

because we knew that life was more important than balancing the books. As a

former President of Treasury Board, I can tell anybody listening today and

watching, when a health care budget increases from $900 million to $1.4 billion

- and it does not come from the federal government to make up that slack - you

are definitely going to have a deficit.

These are the kinds of things that you would discuss at an Internal Economy

Commission. These are questions sometimes a Child and Youth Advocate would bring

with regard to situations of Aboriginal children and the money needed to be

spent in that area. That is only one that comes to mind. Naturally, you do not

have a budget to look after every situation that comes across your desk but you

try to respond. As a government you try to respond in the best way possible, and

sometimes that means spending money that you do not have.

I want to also talk about the Chief Electoral Office. We all know, as elected

members, and myself now on my third term in office - I am a very grateful to the

people of Grand Falls-Buchans for showing their confidence in me once again. The

Chief Electoral Office provides a very valuable function of the Legislature. All

of us know, who have been here and even those for the first time, every time you

are elected, by April 1 of every year you must file what we call a Conflict of

Interest Statement. That is very important, because many of us leave private

life where you may have had situations where you had business interests, or sat

on various boards or corporations. That could be a conflict once you are here as

part of the Legislature, particularly if you sit on the government side and you

are making decisions that may affect the very people that you had been doing

business with in the past. It is important and, of course, the Chief Electoral

Officer would have to ensure that every member of this hon. House would file a

Conflict of Interest Statement by April 1 of each year. Of course, if there was

anything out of order in that statement it would be made known and the member

would be given a period of time to correct it. If anything changes throughout

the year, that would cause a perception of conflict of interest, the member has

an obligation to report it to the Chief Electoral Office so he can review it and

make sure that the member's affairs are in order.

These are all areas that come under the Legislature.

CHAIR: Order, please!

I remind the hon. Member for Grand Falls-Buchans that her time has expired.

MS THISTLE: Thank you.

I will just be a moment, if you do not mind.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: The hon. member, by leave.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would just like to say that this is an area of the Budget that both sides

of the House have debate and interaction on. We know how important it is, and

how transparent and above board all of us must be. I am glad to be part of the

Legislature. I have no problem in supporting the Budget line, because I know it

is a true and an accurate reflection of the work that is being carried out by

this Legislature.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Shall the House expenditures subheads 1.1.01 to 6.1.01 carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subheads 1 through 6 carried.

CLERK: The total.

CHAIR: Shall the total of $15,475,500 carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

On motion, total carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the subheads under the House of Assembly budget

carried, without amendment?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Department of the House of Assembly, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: The hon. the Acting Government House Leader.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr.Chairman.

It is my understanding that we are now going to proceed with matters under

the heading of Executive Council.

CHAIR: We will debating the subheads under the Executive Council.

Shall subheads 1.1.01 to 3.1.09 carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Carried.

CHAIR: Carried.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Grand Falls-Buchans.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to speak to the heading under Executive Council today, and talk

about some of the items that fall under this heading. It was interesting to be

part of a government for the past eight years and, when we always got around to

this part of the discussion, members of the Opposition always had many questions

with regard to the actual running of Government House. I wonder now, today,

while they sit in government are they as opposed to the operation of the

Government House as they were in the eight-and-a-half years that I was part of

government? That would be an interesting response to hear from the government

side, I am sure. I notice that there is a small difference in the operation of

Government House. There was $589,000 spent last year, and this year there is

$529,000 in that particular budget. I know there is a salary reduction, probably

of one person. I do not know if the Minister of Finance could let me know what

position that would be, or if we would like to answer later? Apparently so.

Under the Premier's Office, 2.l.01., I notice that there is a small

increase in the salary portion of the Premier's Office. I do not know how

small it would be. Last year it was forecast that $1.2 million would be spent;

but, in actual fact, last year there was $1.1 million spent. This year the

salary line is $1,240,300. It looks like we have new staff added to the Premier's

Office. Maybe the Minister of Finance would be able to elaborate on that one.

I also note that in 2.2.01., Executive Support, to the Premier, last year

there was $842,300 spent in salaries and this year there is $856,900. It appears

that we have someone else hired or they are at a higher salary. I would like to

also ask, particularly under Executive Support, last year there was $10,000

spent for Professional Services and this year we have money being spent to the

tune of $327,000. Now, that is quite a difference, from $10,000 to $327,000. I

wonder, could the Minister of Finance explain that situation? Professional

services could be any range of things. It could actually be outside consultants,

it could be communications, it could be ad agencies, it could be a number of

things, but I would appreciate hearing from the Minister of Finance in that

regard.

I also note that 2.2.02., Economical and Social Policy Analysis, these are

people who work as part of the Cabinet Secretariat and they do analysis of

various projects that come before government before a decision is made. I also

noticed there that the salary line for those people will be increased from

$341,000 to $432,000. I would like to have an explanation on that area.

We have a Premier who said, when he got elected, that he would run a smaller

government. I would like to ask during this questioning on the Executive

Council, if I could have a list of all the people who are employed in Executive

Council, what positions are there now and considered to be vacant and will not

be filled, what positions are there that are currently vacant and will be

filled, and how many people and positions were there last year that are not

there this year? If I could have that by May 31, it would be appreciated.

Also, under 2.2.05., Protocol, which tells government all the do's and don't,

and the right things to do on various formal occasions, and how to sign your

name and what to do when you are dealing with very important people from all

over the country, this Protocol Office last year had $15,000 that they spent in

transportation and communications. This year, they are going to spend $85,000.

That is an increase of $60,000 in transportation and communications. I would

like to know whether or not the Protocol Office will be travelling with the

Premier on other junkets, when he is going abroad to Europe and other countries,

or what they are planning to do with the increase there of $60,000. I noticed

that there is going to be an increase there in Purchased Services, too. Last

year there was $130,000 and that could be anywhere in the way of supplies and

outside consulting, you name it. This is going to go from $130,000 to $142,000.

We have a Minister's Office there, it says Intergovernmental Affairs. Now,

we know that Intergovernmental Affairs is going to be handled by the Premier. We

know the new Department of Business is going to be handled by the Premier. We do

not see a salary there. That is a good thing, but we do see a travel budget of

$50,000. Now, the Premier already has $750,000 in his travel budget for the new

Department of Business, but he needs another $50,000 coming out of

Intergovernmental Affairs, and I would like to know why he needs this. Is it

true that he plans to open up an office in Europe? I heard that in the media a

day or so ago, that our Premier plans to open up an office in Europe. Can you

imagine!

MR. JOYCE: Is it in the Budget?

MS THISTLE: No, it is not in this Budget unless it is hidden. It is

definitely not in the Budget.

We have the Premier now, he wants to open an office in Ottawa. That is

$350,000. He wants to open up an office in Europe. We do not know what that is

going to cost or where it is in this Budget. I do not see it, unless it is

hidden. It is a funny thing about it, he is going to close down twenty Human

Resources and Employment offices. He is going to layoff the weigh scale

inspectors, shut down the weigh scales. I asked the Minister of Government

Services last night, what was her plan. Is she going to dismantle the weigh

scales in Port aux Basques or is she going to mothball it? She said she would

mothball it. Now, that is interesting. At least, it is not going off the face of

the earth.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). They are going to need a lot of mothballs.

MS THISTLE: Yes.

So, imagine now, the Premier intending to open up an European office when I

cannot get a cancer clinic in Grand Falls-Windsor to treat the people who need

cancer treatment everyday. I cannot get that office in Grand Falls-Windsor and

he wants to open up an office in Europe. Can you imagine?

Now, here we are again, they always say the devil is in the details. The

devil is in the details. Here we go, under Executive Support, for Purchased

Services. Purchased Services, you can put anything under Purchased Services.

Now, I would like to know what is going under Purchased Services when last year

there was $20,000 spent and this year they are going to spend $278,000. Can you

imagine? I would like to have a rundown on it and what the Executive Support of

the Intergovernmental Affairs - the department, I suppose, you would call it.

Now, where is that department? I heard last night in Estimates Committee that

the fourth floor of the West Block at Confederation Building is wiped out. Wiped

out!

When I was the Minister of Labour, Occupational Health and Safety operated in

that same Department of Labour. There are thirty people who are going to be

moved. They have probably already moved to a rental space in Donovan's

Industrial Park. Now, here is a Premier who said he was going to have a smaller

government. Here he is now, he combined two or three departments to make it

sound good. He is going to wipe out the fourth floor of the West Block but he

got something else in mind to put in there.

He is going to go out to the private sector and pay rent in Donovan's

Industrial Park to house the Occupational Health and Safety, which are thirty

positions. Thirty positions takes up a lot of space, let me tell you that, with

all their equipment for occupational health and safety all across the Province.

You see the devil is in the details, because we are looking at Purchased

Services under Executive Support going from $20,000 to $278,000 with not an

explanation.

Policy Analysis and Coordination of Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariat.

Our Premier is the Intergovernmental Affairs Minister. What is he going to be

doing to spend that kind of money? Can anybody tell me? Salaries jump in that

section, for Policy Analysis, from $551,000 up to $605,000. So, there are more

people hired. The devil is in the details for sure.

Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariat, Ottawa Office. We have $200,000 in

Salaries. We have a budget of $55,000. Now that is on top of the

Intergovernmental Affairs travel budget that I just mentioned. There is $50,000

under Intergovernmental Affairs. There is $55,000 under the Ottawa Office. There

is $750,000 under the new Business Department. That can provide a lot of travel.

Now, that does not count the European office. Supplies for the Ottawa Office is

$20,000. That is to start with, because this is May 20. By the time they get the

Ottawa Office open they figure they will only need $20,000 to buy the paper, the

pens, the pencils and the hi-lighters, and one thing and the other like that;

$20,000.

Professional Services for the Ottawa Office is $20,000. What are you going to

be getting under $20,000 for professional services in Ottawa? I would like to

know. I bet all members on the other side of the House would like to know

because they are not going to find out in their caucus room, you can be sure of

that.

MR. SHELLEY: You know all about what happens in our caucus room.

MS THISTLE: Absolutely! Yes, I know what happens in your caucus room.

I am sure that the members opposite are delighted that we are having this

debate this afternoon because they are getting a lot of information they

normally would not get.

Purchased Services for the Ottawa Office, $55,000. I would like to ask the

Premier or the Minister of Finance to stand up and tell me how they are going to

spend $55,000 for Ottawa. Tell me, who is going to be sitting in that office in

Ottawa, sitting on a leather chair and looking out through the window at the

Rideau Canal?

MR. JOYCE: Contacting the seven MPs.

MS THISTLE: Yes, sitting in there and wondering if they will put on their

skates today and skate down over the Rideau Canal, or perhaps they will go down

to Hyde's and have a cocktail. Oh, yes, that is what they will do. A $200,000

salary. They are going to go out and - Purchased Services. What are you going to

purchase for $55,000? Three hundred and fifty thousand dollars. It is funny now.

It is not a bit funny, in fact; $350,000 was what we needed to make the payments

on the cancer clinic for Grand Falls-Windsor so everybody who is going through

the experience of cancer and needs treatment can come and have their cancer

treatment in Grand Falls-Windsor. But, no! That $350,000 was more important to

put an office in Ottawa so the Premier, or whoever he is going to put in that

office, can sit down there in an office and look out over the Ridea