ISSN 0542-5492 Fifth Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 30 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXIX No.5�\-10:00 a.m., FRIDAY, 10 APRIL, 1981 Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y Thirty -First Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, A. R. (Pete) ANDERSON, Bob BANMAN, Hon. Robert (Bob) BARROW, Tom BLAKE, David BOSTROM, Harvey BOYCE, J. R. (Bud) BROWN, Arnold CHERNIACK, Q.C., Saul CORRIN, Brian COSENS, Hon. Keith A. COWAN, Jay CRAIK, Hon� Donald W. DESJARDINS, Laurent L. DOERN, Russell DOMINO, Len DOWNEY, Hon. Jim DRIEDGER, Albert EINARSON, Henry J. ENNS, Hon. Harry J. EVANS, Leonard S. FERGUSON, James R. FILMON, Hon. Gary FOX, Peter GALBRAITH, Jim GOURLAY,Hpn. Doug GRAHAM, Hon. Harry E.

GREEN, Q.C., Sidney HANUSCHAK, Ben HYDE, Lloyd G. JENKINS, William JOHNSTON, Hon. J. Frank JORGENSON, Hon. Warner H. KOVNATS, Abe LYON, Hon. Sterling R. MacMASTER,Hon.Ken MALINOWSKI, Donald McBRYDE, Ronald McGILL, Hon. Edward McGREGOR, Morris McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., Hon. Gerald W. J. MILLER, Saul A. MINAKER, Hon. George ORCHARD, Hon. Donald PARASIUK, Wilson PAWLEY, Q.C., Howard PRICE, Hon. Norma RANSOM, Hon. Brian SCHROEDER, Vic SHERMAN, Hon. L. R. (Bud) STEEN, Warren URUSKI, Billie USKIW, Samuel WALDING, D. James WESTBURY, June WILSON, Robert G. Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield La Verendrye Flin Flon Minnedosa Rupertsland Winnipeg Centre Rhineland St. Johns Wellington Gimli Churchill Riel St. Boniface Elmwood St. Matthews Arthur Emerson Rock Lake Lakeside Brandon East Gladstone River Heights Kildonan Dauphin Swan River Birtle-Russell Inkster Burrows Portage Ia Prairie Logan Sturgeon Creek Morris Radisson Charleswood Thompson Point Douglas The Pas Brandon West Virden Roblin Osborne Seven Oaks St. James Pembina Transcona Selkirk Assiniboia Souris-Killarney Rossmere Fort Garry Crescentwood St. George Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Fort Rouge Wolseley Party NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP Prog. PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC PC Prog. Prog. PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP NDP Lib lnd

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 10 April, 1981 Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (B irtle­ Russell): Prese nting Pet itions . . . Read ing and Rec eiving Petitions ... Pres enting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Ch arleswood ): Mr. Speaker, I am handing to the Clerk for distribution to all memb ers of the Legisla t ure, copi es of a Constitutional Broch ure, entitled Consitu tional Issues for the People of Manitoba.

This bro chure is being de livered to every household in the province, in line with the practise that has been followed by many of the provinces in Canada. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honou rable Mi ni ster of Agricu lture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement on behalf of my colleag ue, the Mini ster of Mi nes and Energy. Howeve r, I'm ex pecting copies to be bro ught in for the Members of the House and wonder if I could, when they arrive, have leave to make the annou ncement. I haven't got the copies available, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Is it agreeable to set it aside? (Agreed) Notices of Motion ... In trod uction of Bills. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAK ER: At this time I wou ld like to introdu ce to the honou rable members, 33 students of Grade 7 standing from Kleefeld School, under the dir ection of Mr s. Webber. This school is in the constituency of the Honou rable Minis ter of Fitness and Amateur Sport. On behalf of all the hono urable members, we welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, to the First Mini ster, yesterda y the Fir st Minister accepted a question as notice, per taining to whether or not the Deputy Premier had received not only a legal opinio n that expressed the view that there ought to be an application to the court in order to quash Tritschler Commission proceed ings, but also when an opinion of that was not satisfactory to the Min ister, that the Order-in -Council be amended in respect to the Terms of R eference. The First Mini ster accepted that question as one of notice. Can the First Minister now respond? 2653 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. MR.

LYON: No, Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Premier is out of the province on government business, and in due course I daresay he'll resp ond. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday as well, I asked the First Minister and this does not req uire the First Mini ster to speak to the Deputy Premier that's now out of the province on business, whether or not, in view of his statement yesterday that he would like to see the report, the legal report from one Steward Martin, and that he wou ld lik e to see fishing expen di tions no t undertaken ; in vie w of these statements by the First Mi nister, would the First Min ister now be prepared to annou nce a position on the part of his go vernment, that solicitor-client confidentiality is waived, that he will obtain a copy of that report, written report, which I assert is there, and make it available.

MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, in due course, I'll be happy to speak to the Dep uty Premier when he returns from other more pressing business and the honou rable member may at that time have a response. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I didn't ask the First Min ister to speak to the Deputy Premier because of the Deputy Premier's record the past three days and the First Mi ni ste r's stone wal ling yesterday. I'm looking to the First Mini ster to express a position on behalf of the government.

Is the intention on the part of this government, whether they are going to be open, above board and make information available, or whether they're going to cont inue to attempt to stonewall and to cover up this pertinent information that is of public interest? MR. LYON: Mr. Sp eaker, the co urse of the government will be to do what is in the public inter est and not to aid and abet those who would prevert the public in terest on their own fishing expeditions. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, further to the First Minister, if indeed that is the First Mini ster's position, then why can the First Mi nister not annou nce this morning, without reservat ion, without equivocation, that that written report which he ind icated he would lik e to see yesterday, and spoke with some enth usiasm abo u t his desire to see that report, why he would not unequivocally annou nce this morning that indeed he would ask for that report and make that written legal report available to the members of this House, so that we would know, so that we would kn ow quite clearly, and withou t resort to a newspaper just what legal advice was tendered by former legal counsel, Steward Martin?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Mem ber for In kster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the First Minister. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the First Mi nister whether it's appropriate

Friday, 10 April, 1981 for the Federal Government to have used taxpayers money to purchase ads in the newspaper and to widely publicize its posit ion , with respect to the constitu tional changes which it is attempting to foist on the people of Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, that would depend on the object ivity of the ad. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, do I take it that the First Mini ster is suggesting that if he agrees with the advertisement, that it is correct to spend public money on it; if he disagrees with the advertisement, then it's not correct to spend public money on it? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I never suggest ed that my subjectivity should be created in the public interest , the objectivity of the people.

If my hono urable friend is meandering his way around to the point as to whether or not the broch ure that has just been distribu ted to him is an objective one, I suggest that he look at the quotat ions from Liberals, Cons ervatives, New Democrats, and so on, and he can form his own judgment. I think it's a very objective piece of information on the constitu tion. I am sure that others may disagree. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, after a cursory glance, may I say, Mr.

Speaker, that I probably in large part agree with what is being said by the people who are saying it, and if I have a reser vation, it's that I am not one of the people who is pictured as saying . . . that's not the problem, Mr. Speaker. The quest ion is, Mr . Sp eaker, whet her it is appropriate on a purely political position and I say that even if I agreed 10 0 percent with it, and I underline, Mr. Speaker, if it was my position and I underline this as the position of the Progressives, that we wi ll not use public funds to purs ue our position throu gh the newspaper.

We will do it through our political party, and I asked the Premier, not wit hstanding the fact that I probably agree with most of what is in here, is it appropriate, and it's been started by the Federal Government and now appears to be con tinu ed to the Provincial Government, to use public funds to advertise a blatan tly political position, objective or subjective? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I can't of co urse accept the position of the Leader of the Prog ressive Par ty that this is a blatantly political document.

This is meant to be an explanation of positions taken by the Government of Manit oba, with respect to one of the most serious problems that has faced this coun try in a constitu tional sense since Confederat ion. I do make the observation and concu r in his commen t that my honou rable friend might well have been one of those who was quoted in this particular doc ument and that is an oversight that anyone in the House could readily admit to. He says that he would never commit the Progressive Party to spending public funds on such a doc ument . Mr.

Speaker, he will never have the opportunity to commit his party to spend public funds on any doc umen t. MR. GREEN: I arise. Mr. Speaker, on a question of the privileges of the House. and I may say, Mr. Speaker, that the First Minis ter said the same thing about my opportu nity to spend public funds when I was a New Democrat and he wrong then and he'll be wrong agai n. But I do rise, Mr . Speaker, on a question of the privile ges of the House. The House is now considering a resolution as to the consti tutional position to be taken by the Government of the Province of Manitoba an d, Mr.

Speaker, I say that it is a question of the privileges of the House for the government to be annou ncing a government position, when they themselves have a resol ution on the Order Paper which determines what position the Gove rnment of the Province of Manitoba is going to take. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable First Minis ter on the point of privile ge. MR. LYON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I merely rise to say what I'm sure is axiomatic to everyone else; there is no point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please.

A point of privile ge when raised should be accompanied by a motion for the House to do something abo ut it. At this time the honou rable member has not ... the honou rable member on the point of privilege. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I believe that you're right in what you are saying. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that what you are saying will also lead to a very dangerou s precedent and will probably resul t in the House doing nothing but debating with the right to speak on motions of privilege. I merely raised this question, Mr.

Speaker, as one of the privileges of the House to be observed on a motion that is presen tly before the House; the go vernment has published a resol ution which presu pposes the disposi tion of the motion. MR. SPEAK ER : The Honou rable Mem ber for Ruperts land . MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My ques tion is to the Minis ter of Environment and it's related to the Shoal Lake Minin g Devel opmen t in Ont ario.

I wonder if the Minis ter can ind icate to the House what response he has to the report that the City of Winnip eg Council has expressed concern abou t this development, and inde ed has stated thro ugh the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg, that the ideal as far as the City of Winn ipeg is concerned, would be for this development to be halted, and I assume what they want is for the project to be halted while a proper and full environmental impact st udy is done, somet hing which we have been demanding in this House. I wonder if the Minis ter can respond to that. MR .

SPEAKER : The Honou rable Minist er of Consu mer and Corpor ate Affairs. ' HON. GARY FILMON (River Height s): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, having listened to some media report s and having read this morning's

article in the newspaper, I do no t find any call for an environ mental impa ct study on that par ticu lar project. On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, I wan ted to ensu re that the Mayor was fully aprized of everything 2654

Friday, 10 April, 1981 that the Government of Manitoba was doing, and intended to do with respect to this particular project, rather than - although the Mayor may have said that the ideal position would be to have no mine, the Mayor also said in the

article and I quote, "it may be a somewhat unrealistic positio n," and, Mr. Speaker, what I have done this morning is to have a letter composed to the Mayor, in which I have indicated to him a variety of different things to do with the Shoal Lake water supply. One is to assure him that the objective that our department has, is to maintain the present water quality standards in the Shoal Lake reservoir, and in order to achieve that, Mr.

Speaker, we will be pressing the Ontario Min istry of the Environment and perhaps the Federal Government with respect to the other proposal because we intend to make presenta tion before the Federal Environmental Assessment Review Board on the other proposal for a cottage lot development.

But more particularly, I have ensured the Mayor, that it is our position that no pollution shall be tolerated to the City of Winnip eg 's water supply, and that to ensure that there is no lack of communication or misunderst anding, because we will have to be in a position of having the Ontario Minis try impose our standards on the project, sinc e it occurs in the Pr ovince of Ontario, I in vi ted the Ma yor to accompany me to Toronto, for a meeting with the Ontario Minister of the Environment as soon as he is appointed.

As the member probably kno ws, there is currently not a Min ister of the Environment for the Province of Ontario, and as soon as one is appointed, I will be setting up a meeting and I've invited the Mayor to accompany me so that he will ensure that he will be rep rese nting and understanding the in terests of the City of Winn ipeg and making sure tha t the y are communic ated properly to the Ontario Minister, so that we can ensure that the Ontario Min ister will impose the rest rictions and the various re quir ements and guidelin es on any project, whether it be the High Lake molybdenum mine or any other in that area, that may ultimately affect the City of Winn ipeg 's water supply.

Just in

summary for the other question that the member asked yesterday, about the third point that was not in Hansard, of the seven point agreement that was achieved between our Min istry and the Ontario Min istry, it concerns the agreement of the Ontario Min istry of the Environment, to respond in writing to Manitoba's initial environmental evaluation of the High Lake mine proposal by April 10 th, and I would assume, today is April 10 th, that the proposal is going to be here today. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Well, just one supple mentary question, Mr.

Speaker, following from the Minister's reply.

He is ind icating that the position that Manitoba Government is taking, is that there should be no pollution of the Shoal Lake Water reservoir, which serves the City of Winnipeg, and I wonder if his departmental officials will be looking at the potential of this mine, with respect to the 90,000 gallons of water each day that they're taking out of the system, putting through the milling process and flushing back through the tailings pond, back into the water 2655 system, and I wonder if they're going to take some action on that particular part of the project, before the project is implemented, and not after, as he was indicating in his answers the other day, they would be monitoring the situation afterwards, which to our way of thinkin g, Mr.

Speaker, is not acceptable. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Min ister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. FILMON: Mr. Sp eaker, I'm gl ad th at the member has given me an opportunity to correct the impression that he had.

When I said tha t an agreement was achieved between our Mini stry and their Min istry to monitor the water quality standards on High Lake during this forthcoming spring and summer, that was to establish without any doubt what the current water quality standards are, so that ther efore, after evalua ting another propos al, we could in future, have a base line to which we could compare the standards.

Those monitoring exercises will be done well before the mine is ever established to ensure that we know what the present water quality standards are, so that we can ensure that in future those standards will not be worsened. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Rupertsland with a final supplementary. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr.

Sp eaker, as a final supplementary, I'd ask the Min ister if he is really confident that the assurances that he is receiving from the Mi ni stry of Environment and the Government of Ontario, are really in fact tak ing place, and I bring this to his attention, because the information we have is that work on the mine in question is continuing at the present time, and there has been no abatement in the work on the site, in spite of the fact that the Mini ster seems to be getting the assurances from the Ontario Government, that there is a hold on this particular project until such time as all these stud ies between the two departments are completed?

MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I don't think I at any time ind ica ted that ther e was a hold on any construction going on. They may construct the head frame, buildings or any numbers of different things, but what they cannot do is put any part of the mine into operation that would contribute pollution to the water supply, and what they are doing now is in anticipation of being able to build into the system, sufficient water pollution control mechanisms that the effluent will not be in any way pollutant to the City of Winnip eg's water supply. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, if I could now have leave of the House to make a statement for the Min ister of Energy. MR. SPEAKER: Has the Honourable Min ister leave? Is it agreeable then to leave it till the end of the Question Period? (Agreed) The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Min ister. We note since the First Minister has

Friday, 10 April, 1981 indi cated that the printing of the pamphlet was done at considerable public expense and not courtesy of the Prog ressive Conservative Party in Manitoba, and since the pamphlet that he's distri buted this morning has a huge blank, a huge blank about half of the pamphlet apparently not been used for any useful purpose, would the First Mi nister be prepared to accept a suggestion from me, probably in the interests of efficiency and rest raint, that he ensure that the back is used to include Claude Ryan's most recent statement to the effect that Mr . Levesque and Mr.

Lyon of Manitoba had many similar attitudes vis­ a-vis the Constitution, since he's already quoted Mr. Ryan earlier in the pamphlet, and also I wonder if the Premier wouldn't consider adding the comments, of course if his public relations advisors would permit it, of Mr. Levesque, Mr . Lougheed, and Mr. Peckford and of course his Federal Leader, Mr. Joe Clark? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I can well understand the state of high consternation of the Leader of the Opposition because, Mr.

Speaker, if I had the honour to lead a party and hadn't been able to bring that party to a position on the main constitutional issues in Canada, I would have long since resigned as leader of the party, which is probably what my honourable friend should be doing. But in any case, Mr. Speaker, we'll leave him to wallow in his own pools of indecision. I merely say, as has already been suggested that what appears on the back of this pamphlet, could have been space for the position of the NDP; that accurately reflects it in Manitoba right now. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, if the First Min ister's offering us equal space, we'll be happy to accept it, since he's already sending it out on public funds and since I assume that to be offer on the part of the First Min ister, we'll gladly provide him our position within minutes. If the First Minister is indicating an offer to us, we'll gladly accept in the in terests of fair play in Manitoba. I'd like to ask the First Minis ter if he would acquaint members of the House as to the total costs, Mr.

Speaker, of prepara tion, the receipt of the layout and information from his PR advisors, and all other matters, including of course, what will be the cost of distributing it, I suspect, to every household in the Province of Man itoba, with all the postage that is in volved therein. Could the First Min ister advise whether or not the cost will reach a quarter of a million, or half a million dollars, or whether it will only be a hundred thousand? What would be the cost of the pamphlet? MR. LYON: Mr .

Speaker, in what I can only assume was that sense of high camp that was just disp layed by th e Leader of the Opposition becaus e, Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition doesn't have a sense of humour about his absence of a position on the constitution, the rest of us have to. He went before a press conference, Mr. Speaker, a matter of a few weeks ago, gave an alleged position and at the end of it when asked the question, "I s that the position of the party?", he said, "No, I'm expressing a personal position ." So now is he going to stand up here and say, Mr.

Speaker, that he's brought his ... is he going to stand up? MR. SPEAKER: Orde r please. The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition on a point of personal privilege. MR. PAWLEY: The First Min ister is untrue. I spoke as leader of my party at that press conference and was so indicated. Where the First Minister has dug up that bit of misinformation I know not. MR. LYON: Well, Mr . Speaker, I have to accept my honourable friend's word.

I was only going on what the press gallery told me and they thought it was the biggest joke in years, but my honourable friend isn't the biggest joke in years, he's just the biggest one in months; that's fine. All I can say to my honourable friend, Mr. Speaker, is that as and when he gets a posit ion on the constitution, we'd be happy to hear it, a un ited position on behalf of his party, we'd be happy to hear it. But, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member asked a question which I knew he would be asking, and so I have estimates of the cost of the document.

The estimated cost of printing is $14 ,230; the estimated cost of distribution is $18,17 6.45 and the estimated cost that's given to me at this time is $32,406. Those are estimated costs, Mr. Speaker, if there is any excess, I'll be happy to report it but that's what the staff tell me at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition, with a final supplementary. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I think in all the First Mi nister's verbosity, which wasn't very much to the point, he still has failed to respond to my question and if he's not prepared to, then let him say so, as to why he didn't add the comments and th e observations by Mr. Claude Ryan in addition to those he's already included, which compar ed his own position, intransige nce and rigidity to that of Mr. Rene Levesque in Quebec, and why since he and Mr. Rene Levesque are so close, shoulder to shoulder, why he would not have included Mr. Levesque's statement in the pamphlet? I notice he's included many other political figures.

Why did he not include Mr. Levesque? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I can only suggest to my honourable friend that as and when his party has the guts to form a posit ion, or the ability, instead of acting like a bunch of Mexican irregulars, which is what they do most of the time, then I say to my honour able friend, when he's had the opportunity to form a position and print his own brochure as to what that position is, if he can even define what it is, may I suggest that he show a picture of himself perhaps in that same posture as I think one of the national newspapers did, himself with the Prime Min ister of Canada, only he like his National Leader, Mr.

Broadbent, should be peeking out of the Prime Min ister's rear pocket, because that's where he is all the time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inks ter on a point of order. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. There has been some suggestion -(Int erject ion)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for In kster on a point of order. 2656

Friday, 10 April, 1981 MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the point of order is. that it was suggested from this side by the Leader of the Opposition, that the Opposition should have had equal time on the pamphlet. I wish to make it clear that as a member of the Opp osit ion, the pamphl et tha t I did on the consititution was published, not at public expense and distributed as part of my regular franking privileges, but it was not printed at public expense as was the pamphlet of the Progressive Conservative Party. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Hon ourable Mini ster of Health, and I wonder if the Mi nister has had reports from his department, on recent complaints from patients at Deer Lodge Hospital, to the effect that it is taking up to three months for them to receive their eye glasses after having the prescriptions ordered? HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): No, Mr. Speaker, and I would remind the honourable member that Deer Lodge is a federal institution. Whi!e I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I would like the opportunity to respond to a question that was raised the other day by the Member for Transcona.

On Tuesday of this week, the Member for Transcona asked whether firm reg ulations are in pl ace concern ing the dis posal of un wanted dr ugs or medicines by hospitals, doctors' offices and the likes. The answer is, Mr. Speaker, that firm law is in place respect ing narcotics and controlled drugs and the disposal of same. A federal law is in place and no disposal of such items can be carried out without the permission and sanction of the Federal Food and Drug Di rectorate and, in fact, some monitoring and observation of the disposal process.

In terms of non­ prescription drugs or tho se that are not on the controlled list, there is no specific legislation covering disposal of those items definit ively unto themselves, Mr. Speaker, but the disposal of that kind of waste is covered under a regulation under The Public Health Act. It is also covered, presumably and expectantly, by the ethics of the medical profession itself and monitored very closely by the College of Physicians and Surgeons under the accepted ethic that no physician shall place any person at risk. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with supplementary. MS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Speaker, as the Mini ster of Health for all Manitobans, including those patients who are patients in Deer Lodge Hospital, will the Minis ter have someone in his depa rtment then inv estigate the situation of this apparent hardship, which is not a complaint against the management of the hospital but is a complaint about the provision of eye glasses to these elderly patients, most of whom have distingu ished themselves in the service of our country? Would he have this investigated and, if necessary, take it up with the Federal authority? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I don't need to be reminded personally, or otherwise, of Canadians who distinguis hed the mselves in the service of their country and I daresay that can be said of every member of this Legislature. 2657 The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge is dealing with a federal issue in a provincial context. I suggest that she get in touch with her colleague, the Mini ster of Veterans Affairs, on this point. MR. SPEAKER : The Honour able Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the First Mi ni ster in the absence of the Min ister of Labour.

Can the Minister ind icate why it is that for the first time in my memory Manitoba's unemplo yment rate has risen to being the fourth lowest in the country. That is something that has not exis ted for at least 10 years. Can the Mi nis ter indica te why that has happ ened un der the Conservative Government admin istration? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANKLIN JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Labour, I would like to comment on the member's question. In February, we were the second lowest in Canada. We have been traditionally third.

We are fourth in Canada at the present time, but the Member for Transcona never takes the time, as all the members on the other side, to analyze figures or reasons, which we tried to explain in the announcement. Mr. Sp eaker, there are 4,0 00 mor e jobs in Manitoba than there were last month. There were 8,000 more jobs in Manitoba in March over March of 19 80; 11 ,000 more jobs in March over February of 19 80. Mr. Speaker, one of the reasons for the figures at the present time, as explained in the release, is because of our spring season.

Many people who do not come into the employment force for employment until later on - usually it happens a little later on in the Province of Manitoba - but because of our early spring, this figure means there are more people coming into the labour force. We have created 4,000 more new jobs in one month and the indication, Mr . Speaker, is that the Province of Manitoba will take up the labour force as it comes on very quickly becaus e our construction will start sooner. So every thing, Mr.

Speaker, really, when you analyze the figures, looks toward a very good position regard ing employment in the Province of Manitoba in 19 81. MR. PARASIUK: My supplementary is dir ected to the First Mi ni ster, who can tr y and duck acc ountabi lity for the unemp loyment rate in Manitoba all he wants, but the people will hold him accouhtable.

My question to this government is: Will they send out a document to every householder in Manitoba telling them why we have now the fourth lowest unemplo yment rate, our highest rate in a decade, and will they in that document apologize to the people of Manitoba for their incompetent economic policies? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, last month when we were second in Canada, one of our members had to ask the question. Mr. Speaker, if he wants it to be sent out this month, we want to send out last

Friday, 10 April, 1981 mont�·� <jl1d we want to send them out every month. Mr. Speaker, that man, the Member for Transcona, assumes doom and gloom every time he stands up in this House. MR. PARASIUK: Mr . Speaker, my question is dir ected to the Fir st Min ister, acco untable for Manitoba's overall economic performance.

I would like to ask him if he believes that an unemp loyment rate qf 6.3 percent, sea sonally adjusted, or an unemp loyment rate of 7.3 percent, which is an unemplo yment rate which puts us as the Newfoundland of Western Canada, whether he is proud of that particular position of the Manitoba economy and what is he going to propose to bring our un emplo yment rate down to the level of 3 percent, as it used to be when the New Democratic Party Government was in power? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Mi ni ster. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, unl ike my honourable friend, I try not to go into periods of exaltation when the employment rate is good for one month, or into period of deep depression or shall we say lack of reality, as the Mem ber for Transcona dips into occasi onally when the emp loyment rate varie s through an anomaly in another month. What one has to do, Mr.

Speaker, is look at the quarterly, the half-yearly and the yearly trend, which is what the Mi ni ster has said on many many occasions. what I say on many many occasions, and not come to the kind of rather radical and high­ pitched voice respons es or rhetoric that we hear so often from members on the opposite side, who are all too ready at all times to downgrade their province and downgrade its people, but have very little to suggest about uplifting it.

Now, I'll say to my honourable friend that if he will have a bit of patience and wait until the Budget statement is brought down next week, he will see in that Budg et statement some general statements about the review of the economy, which I am sure will come as good edification to him, because he obviously needs some education in the affairs of his own province. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honourable Min ister of Economic Development.

In view of the fact that his colleague the Min ister of Labour expressed the hope that once the business community recongizes that the labour force is willing and able we will see an even stronger expansion of employment opportunites. Would the Mi ni ster undertake to use some of the blank space on the back of this pamph let and in form the business community that the labour force is willing and able to work, and would he inform the business community to cease downgrading <�nd degrading the province by referr ing to the labour force as being unwilling and unable to work. MR .

SPEAK ER: The Ho nour able Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I don't know of any time that this side of the House or the Minster of Labour in this province has ever stated that the people of Manitoba are unwilling to work. Mr. Speaker, I assure you that type of statement is not a good reflection on what the member is saying and I think he should probably analyze his statement a little more carefully. MR. HANUSCHAK: t.4r.

Speaker, I would like to assist the Honourable t-4jpister and refer him to the statement appearing on his desk, the last paragraph, quoting the Mini ster of Labour as saying, "I am hopeful that once the business community recog nizes that the labour force is willing and able, we will see an even stronger expansion of emplo yment opportunities." So my supplementary question is, does the Min ister of Economic Development agree with the Mini ster of Labour that there is a lack of recognition on the part of the business community of the labour forces willing ness and ability to work? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I agree with the statement of the Mi nister of Labour. I do not agree with the statement of the Member for Burrows who has completely twisted it around to suit himself in this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Min ister responsible for Autopac. I want to know whether the government before th£ elec tion, Mr. Sp eaker, is going to extend the minimum coverage from the current $50,000 in order to afford adequa te comp ensation for seriously injured accident victims?

I remind the Min ister that yesterday there was a multi-million dollar judgment awarded to an injured motorcyclist in the Queen's Bench Court of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi ni ster of Government Services. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr . Speaker, shall have to check with the adminis tration of Autopac to find out just where that matter stands at the present time. MR. CORRIN: I would like to know whether the Mini ster bel ieves that this minimum coverage compensation being at the same rate it was in 19 72 and 19 73 is adequate in terms of present liability coverage? MR.

JORGENSON: What the Mi nister believes or does not believe, I am sure is not relevant at this point. The management of Autopac have this matter under consideration and I believe that the decision will be made shortly. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Wellington with a final supplementary. MR. CORRIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Mini ster, in view of his response, what advice he would have us give, or what advice he would give to a seriously injured accident victim who is struck by a motorist with minimum $50,000 coverage and no personal resources? What sort of advice should that 2658

Friday, 10 April, 1981 accident victim be given this afternoon or this weekend? What should we tell them? MR. JORGENSON: It is one of the reasons why the management of Autopac have this matter under consideration at the present time. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to dir ect a question to the First Min ister in the absence of the Min ister of Energy and ask him whether he can shed any light on the full cost of the Tritschler Commission which estimates have ranged from a low of $1. 5 million to $3 million, and does this include a calculation of Manitoba Hydro's time and effort? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, my recollection is that there was an Order for Return on this matter some time ago which was filed.

I presume it's one of the documents of the House which my honourable friend can look at and enlighten himself from. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Question Period having expired, the Honourable Minister of Agriculture with a statement. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have copies for the members of the House and I apologize for not having them earlier. With leave I would like to make the statement to the members on behalf of the Min ister of Energy and Mine s, Mr.

Speaker, who, as the Premier has in dicated, was out of the province on government busine ss today. A coporate announcement, Mr. Speaker, is being made this morning which ind icates there is intensified inter est by the oil industry of Manitoba's oil potential. The you ng, but agg ressive, Calgary based company, Clarion Petroleu ms Limited, is announcing simultaneously in Calgary and Winnip eg, it will conduct an extensive oil exploration in the Vir den area in 1981 and 19 82. The company is committed to spend $5 million on this exploration program which will involve the drilling of at least 20 wildcat wells.

Three of the wells will be drilled down to a depth of more than 6,0 00 feet to the Precambrian rock level. The other 17 wells will be drill ed to the Mi ssissippian geological strata to a depth of 2,500 feet. This is a major und ertaking by a single company. For instance, in all of 19 80 there were 27 new wells drilled in Manitoba which was the hig hest to tal for any year si nce 19 69. Clarion Petroleu ms which is a majority Canadian owned company intends to drill its first expl oratory well on May 1s t and by November 1st will have drilled 10 wells.

A luther 10 wells will be drilled in the balance of the 19 81-19 82 year, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The Ho nourable Member for Ruperts land. MR. BO STROM: Thank you, Mr . Sp eaker. Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Opposition I can say that we welcome the information and the good news that there is co nti nu ed exploration and some improvement in exploration in the oil ind ustry in Manitoba. But, Mr. Speaker, we find it somewhat amusing that the government wants to take credit for what is an international phenomena and that is that the oil prices in the world are increasing and, Mr .

Speaker, if anyone is to take credit for that, I suppose we should give credit to the Arabs, not to the Progressive Conservative party of Manitoba. Mr. Sp eaker, when we pointed out to th e Conservative government that if they want to take credit for this kind of announcement, they also have to accept on the other hand the blame for the fact that oil production in Manitoba has declined 20 percent under their government. They can't have it both ways, Mr. Speaker. If they want to take credit for the increased exploration, they also have to take some blame for the decrease in production, and on the other hand, Mr.

Speaker, the other thing which this government never bothers to even ind icate in their press releases - this information I am quoting comes right from the government's own reports. It's not pulled out of the air, Mr. Speaker. Look at your own rP.ports. (I nterjections) MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, I was just concluding my comments, but I note they are not going down very well on the other side because they obviously don't like to hear the other side of the story. The other thing, Mr .

Speaker, which this government never mentions, and it's not mentioned in this report -(Int erjections) MR. SPEAKE R: Orde r please. The Honour able Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, well if I could be allowed to complete my comments, Mr. Speaker, the one thing which is of concern to us and something which this government never mentions in any of their releases when it comes to mining or oil development or any of the natural resource developments, is what are the revenues going to be to the people of Manitoba from these resources. What are the revenues going to be? And under this government, Mr.

Speaker, in spite of the fact that there is in creased int erest in exploration, there is incr eased interest in exploration in many mine rals because of the price of minerals, and people are coming here not because of the PC government, they are coming here because the oil and the minerals are here. But this government and the Progressive Con servative Party in this province, because of their phi losophy will not give to the people of Mani toba a pr oper ret urn from the resources and that's the bottom line, Mr. Speaker, and if you want to compare resource development MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I would ask the honourable member to be fairly brief in his reply to the statement. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, if we want to look at return from revenues, one should look right 2659

Friday, 10 April, 1981 across the bound ary at the Provi nce of Saskatchewan where there is more exploration going on and there is more return from those resources coming to the people of Saskatchewan, and, Mr. Speaker, it's no credit to the Progressive Conservative Party that they are not getting a proper return from our resources for the people of Manitoba. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, would you call Second Reading of Bill No. 46, and then Adjourned Debates on Second Read ing of Bill Nos. 10 through to 42? SECOND READING GOVERNMENT BILLS BILL NO. 46 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE CORPORATIONS ACT MR. FILMON presented Bill No. 46,

An Act to amend The Corporations Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mini ster of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, since the enactment of the present Corporations Act on November 1s t, 19 76, there have been two amending acts which received assent on July 20th, 19 78, and May 11 th, 19 79. In addition, a few minor amendments were made by The Statute Law Amendments Act, C75 of 19 80, and assented to on July 29th, 19 80.

As the honourable members are aware, corporate law is not static but must constantly change to meet the needs of the marketp lace, particularly the increasing demand for faster service, mandated by the rapid pace at which commercial transactions are negot iated today. My predecessor in this office mentioned when introducing Bill No. 12, on February 28th, 19 79, that the primary goal of a more efficient admin istration in the field of corporate law appears to have been ach ieved under this act . These amendments therefore are necessary to maintain that goal.

Bill No. 46 which is before you today consists of amendments to imp rove the proces sing of documents filed with the corporat ion's branch. These amendments do not change the existing law, but would permit a modification in the adminis trative procedur e which would expedite the filing of documents from a turnaround time of 15 working days to only 2 working days. These amendments were consi dered by a Sp ecial Committ ee on Corporate Law, which were ins trumental in preparing the present act and the previous amendments. The Chairman is Mr. Ir win Dorfman, with Martin Freedman as Vice-Chairman.

More active members of this committee in clude Professor Arthur Brade, Mel Newman, Abe Anhang, Ray Taylor, Allan Cantor, David Sokolo ff, Cliv e Tallin, Bob Heuckel, Ray Adams, and of course departmental representatives. This committee recommends the attached bill to the government and to the House. I would also like to mention that Ontario has a similar procedure to that which is now sought to be and implemented by these amendments, and that similar amendments under The

Canada Business Corporations Act are proposed. The bill would also fulfill the second of the two main objectives of The Corporations Act, namely the attainment of a more uniform corporate law for Canada. Since 19 76 there has been considerable prog ress towards uniformity. In addition to the Federal and Saskatchewan jurisdictions the provinces of Ontario, Alberta, New Brunswick and Newfoundland have also int rodu ced a new Corpora tions Act into their Legislatures, while Quebec has a committee studying the acts of the uniform corporate law jurisdictions.

Generally the amendments should benefit the public by exped iting the processing of documents and at the same time maintain uniformity with other jurisdictions. Consequently, Mr. Speaker, I have no reservat ions in recommending this bill to members for their careful consideration and adoption. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Kildonan that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING MR . SPEAKER: Bill No. 10 - The Hono urable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Mr.

Speaker, all the bills that are standing in my name, I request that they stand. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 10, (Stand); Bill No. 11 (Stand); Bill No. 12 (Stand); Bill No. 29, (Stand); Bill No. 34 (Stand) The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Hono urable Minis ter of Natural Resources, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Speaker, this is the appropriate moment, I believe, when any member who might have a grievance is entitled to rise before the House and bring it to the attention of the members of the House. Mr. Speaker, I don't recall rising in this House before on a matter of grievance, but there is a matter that's come to my attention that I believe important enough to be dealt with at this time. I know it will be of considerable inter est to members on both sides of the House. You may re call, Mr. Sp eaker, that the Public Utilities Committee has had some four meetings now, 2660

Friday, 10 April, 1981 culminating yesterday in the Opposition members walking out of the Committee. That was followed during the afternoon by a Motion of Privilege placed before the House. You wiil recall also, Mr. Speaker, that much of the dispute seemed to have centered around a meeting of the Board of Hydro, at which time concern was expressed, it was reported to us, on the concerns of Manitoba Hydro's solicitor at that time.

It was further told to us that there had been a legal opinion presented to the Board and that subsequent to the receiving of this legal opinion that the Chairman had gone to see his Min ister, after which time there had been a threat made to the Board that if they carried through on the advice received, that the Board would be replaced. There seemed to be some confusion about such an opinion having been given and whether or not that opinion was in writing.

The Memb er for Rhin eland, who was a member at that time and present at the Committee, was not able to say for sure whether there was, in fact, a written document giving that information and I believe that two or three of the other members of the Board who had been contacted were also unable to recall clearly whether a sort of formal document had been given to the members of the Board, but they do recall that the solicitor had given an opinion to the Board. The Mi ni ster certainly says that he did not receive such an opinion in a formal manner.

It is this written opinion, whether it is in document form or whether it was given from notes by their counsel to the Board, that seems to be the nub of this particular dispute. You may recall, Mr. Speaker, that during the debate on the Motion of Privilege yesterday, I did raise the distinct possibility that such a document was likely to come to light and that in formation and further documentation does tend to surface in cases such as this. I don't want to repeat the argument yesterday, Mr . Speaker, of the Min ister's handling of this particular problem.

It could, in my opinion, have been dealt with quite simply in the first place by admission by the Mini ster, yes, he had received the opinion and he did not like it and the Board had decided not to go along with it. That would have been the end of it, Mr. Speaker. But we received evasive answers, denials that any such opinion had been given, denials by Hydro that such a document existed, and I believe that has resulted in most unfavourable publicity for the government until that time. However, Mr. Speaker, I believe that I might be in a position now to shed some further light on the subject.

The First Min ister, who is not here, said yesterday that he would be most inte rested to be advised or to see such a legal opinion, and I am now in a position to read into the record a document which I think that members will find of considerable interest. It will shed, I believe, considerable light on why the Min ister reacted in the way that he did, and why he was quoted as being most unenthus iastic ab out it. It may, depe nding on members'

interpretation of it, shed light also on the leaving of Hydro's counsel shortly thereafter. Mr. Speaker, this document reads as follows, and I quote: "Mr. Commissioner, by virtue of Order-in­ Council 13 28, issued under date of December 28th, 197 7, your commission inter alia is charged with the responsibility under

Part V of The Manitoba Evidence 2661 Act to make an enquir y into whether Manitoba Hydro has carried cut the intent, purpose, and objects of The Mani toba Hydro Act in all aspects of the development of the Churchill-Nelson River systems for the generation of hydro-electric power and any projects associated therewith. "The intent, purpose, and object of The Manitoba Hydro Act is to provide for the continuation of a supply of power adequate for the needs of the province and to promote economy and efficiency in the generation, distribution, supply and use of power. More specifically the terms of reference granted to you required an enquiry into the following: "(

a) Whether the regulation of Lake Winnip eg prior to the diversion of the Churchill River promoted economy and efficiency in the gener ation, distribution and supply of power in the province; "(

b) Wh ether the timing of Lake Winnip eg Regulation and associated power development at Jenpeg promoted economy and efficiency in the generation, distribution and supply of power in the province; "(

c) Whether the decision to restrict the levels on Southern In dian Lake to elevation 850 feet and the resulting delays and modifications to the Churchill River Diversion and associated power developments at Notigi Rapids control structure and downstream on the Rat and Burntwood Rivers promoted economy and efficiency in the generation, distribution and supply of power in the province; "(

d) Whether the failure to follow the

schedule of development of the Rat River, Burntwood River sites before the Lake Winnip eg Regulation and before the development of the Long Spruce, Limestone and Conawapa sites promoted economy and efficiency in the generation, distribution and supply of power in the province; "(

e) The extent, if any, to which the development sequence adopted for the utilization of the Nelson­ Churchill River Systems contributed to past, present and prospective rate incr eases for consumers of electricity in Manitoba; and "(

f) Such further matters as the Commissioner may consider ancilla ry and incidental to the above mentioned matters. "The inquiry by virtue of its public transcript has not add ressed itself to the issues prescribed by vir tue of the Order-in-Council facilitating its appointment. You have had approxima tely 25 days of hearings and at no point in time have any of the -issues required to be inquir ed into been raised before this Commission. I raise these matters simply because I feel that public enquiry such as this would clearly and precis ely adhere to the Terms of Reference prescribed.

"I nstead of your Commission directing itself to the issues prescribed the Commission has been engaged principally, in my opinion, in an exercise of attempting to assassinate the qualifications, integrity and credentials of professional engi neers in the employ of Manitoba Hydro. "At this point in time the Commission decides to direct its concern to the issues prescribed by virtue of the reference, unfortunately Mani toba Hydro's position has been severely prejudiced by virtue of the preemptory termination of Mr. L. A.

Bateman's services as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer. 1 regret to note that the Honourable Donald Craik

Friday, 10 April, 1981 requested Mr. Bateman's resignation on Thursday, Dece mber 14 th, 19 78, at a point in time when counsel for Manitoba Hydro had not re-examined Mr. Bateman on his evidence. I sugge st to you Mr. Commissioner that conduct such as this compounded by the proclamation of an Order-in­ Council facilitating Mr. Bateman's termination puts into disrepute the credibility of your Commission. "One of the req uirements of your appointment in this regard is to make recommendations from time to time as you think advisable to the Min ister in charge concerning Manitoba Hydro.

For the Mini ster in charge. without even waiting for the full unfolding of Mr. Bat eman's evidence, to have sought his resignation, at best has had a severe scaring effect on the integrity of your untakings. "At this juncture it should be noted for the public record that approxima tely a year ago Mr. Craik requested Mr. Bateman to step down as Manitoba Hydro Chairman so that he could better, to use the Minis ter's words, defend himself against the Inquiry. Mr . Bateman declined this opportunity. "It was very clear to Mr.

Bateman during the currency of last year that the Minis ter in charge of Man itoba Hydro, even though Manitoba Hydro represents by far the largest financial undertaking within the provincial government service, was not prepared to show any wholesome willingn ess to in terface with the Chairman of Manitoba Hydro in order to become appraised with the affairs of this corporation. "By virtue of this apparent personality conflic t existing between Messrs. Craik and Bateman, Mr.

Bateman had intended to resign as Chairman of Manitoba Hydro as soon as he had rendered to your Commission the full assistance necessary in order to enable you to complete your undertakings. By Mr. Bateman being discharged at this point in time, this severely impedes the ability that I have to obtain, on behalf of Manitoba Hydro, the necessary briefing required to protect Manitoba Hydro's inte rest before this Commission. "I want to make one point quite clear, and that is Mr.

Smellie and I have been retained by the Board of Mani toba Hydro to represe nt the in terests of Manitoba Hydro and my remarks in no way should be construed as repres enting the personal interest of Mr. Bateman. "Ho wever, without in any way denegra ting the abilities of the personnel of Manitoba Hydro, Mr. Bateman is recognized internationally as one of the world's foremost authorities with reference to hydro­ electric generation. The undertakings of Manitoba Hydro by virtue of the Churchill- Nelson Diversion Project have been unique in scope and concept. Mr .

Bateman, by virtue of his full exposure to all facets of the matters associated with these projects and the attendant transmission of electricity from the Nelson River generating stations has a unique knowledge within the utility. Again, I do not wish my remarks to be cons tr ued as indi cating tha t others within Manitoba Hydro, who have been associated with these pro jects have not got a high deg ree of com petence.

Despite the cruel la mbasting that certain Hydro pers onnel have been exposed to through you Commission's counsel, these individuals are also recognized as Manitoba Hydro is recognized internationally as well as one of the most efficient and effectively operated public utilities in the western world. "The simple point that has to be made is simply by virtue of the government actions at this point in time the abi lity of cou nsel for Manitoba Hydro to effec tively pre sent a case has been severely prejudiced.

"In addition to the objection that the Commission has not add ressed itself to its Terms of Reference, I would also wish to record another objection. It has been my experienc e in handling and appearing before inquir y commissions for couns el for the agency being inquir ed into, to be afforded the opportunity of having some inte rface with the Commis sioner. In the ins tant case, this has not occurred. At no point in time have you Mr.

Commissioner spoken to me, nor have you been prepared to provide me with an opportunity of indic ating how, in a fair and impartial manner, the affairs of the Comm ission could have been conducted. The procedure, which I sugge st to you has been a massive denial of natural justice and has not been within the best traditions of common law, your counsel has asked leading questions which in number total well over 2,000. This has been done in what appears to be an attempt to harass, demean and vil ify Hydr o emp loyees called as witne sses.

Unfortunately, my status as counsel does not give me the right to object to the manner in which you conduct your proceed ings. "However, I wish to clearly ind icate that in my opinion the conduct of this Commission at best has been reprehensible and, at worse, an example of the Star Court Chamber.

Witnesses were intervie wed by your counsel prior to the public hearing without these witnesses having the benefit of co uns el and the reaction of one witness, who at an earlier stage of his life had been examined by a Gestapo agent indi cated that the experience with the Nazis was more comfort able than he experienc ed by your counsel. "The reaction of another witness was simply that the examination was an exercise in sadistic bullying by an arrogant snob.

The inte rface of this Commission to Manitoba Hydro personnel has had a very demoralizing effect and our position as counsel has been one of frustration because we have not had the authority to attempt to facilitate the concepts of fair play. If the name of the game is to crusade for pious purity in terms of the conduct of all concerned with full disclosure being evidenced at all points in time, my mandate would require me to say, Mr.

Commissioner, this Commission has already cost the citizens of Manitoba in excess of $1. 5 million and the citizens of Manitoba have not received one scintilla of evidence on the public record directed to the issues required by your appointment.

Surely, the issue that the citizens of Manitoba are entitled to be informed upon are the simple and basic issues as to whether the expenditure of public funds for the facili tation of Lake Winn ipeg Reg ulation and the Churchill River Diversion was a sound and prudent expenditur e of funds in terms of the generat ing capacities of electrical energy available through the harnessing of the Nelson River. "The simple issue is whether public funds have been misexpropriated. The issue is not whether to use your own terminology, simply MLAs had been 266 2

Friday, 10 April, 1981 misled, whether chapters of eng ineering studies had been subject to editorial scrutiny, whether internal memos had been changed, these in no way are the issues prescribed for you by your appoin tment. "Mr. Commissioner, I make these comments with a heart filled with sadness.

In lig ht of your distin guished career, I regret the necessity of making this type of objecti on, however. in lig ht of my respons ibility as counsel for Manitoba Hydro, and in light of the enormous expend iture of public funds for an exercise that simply seems to be one whereby an action has been und ertaken to attempt to crucify the Chairman of Manitoba Hydro, I would be, myself, less than honest, in terms of my public respons ibility, if I did not so record my position.

"In light of the clear fact that the usefulness and credibility remaining to your commission is effectively undermined, as evid enced by the intervention of government on issues that you are charged with the respons ibility to report on, this commission can no longer serve any useful purpose, and therefore I respectfully request tha t you term inate these proceedings. "In the altern ative that you do not agree with my submission in this regard, I hereby, pursuant to

Section 97( 1) of The Man itoba Evidence Act, request a reference to the Court of Appeal. "Section 97( 1) provides as follows: 'Where the validity of the commission issued under this part, or the jurisdiction of a commissioner appointed thereby, or the validity of any dec isio n, order, direction or other part of the commission appointed under this part, is called into question by any person affected, the commissio ner upon the request of that person shall state a case in writing to the Court of Appeal setting forth the material facts and the decision of a court thereon is final and bindi ng'.

"I hereby request that such a reference as a person affected on the grounds that you have not adh ered to the jurisdiction prescr ibed for your commission, under and pursuant of Order in Council 13 28. Mr. Speaker, the document is not signed, and I will table this copy of the document. I cannot . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The reading of an unsig ned document in this Chamber is contrary to the Rules, and I would suggest that if the document is unsigned it does not have any standing as far as the records of this House are concerned. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Speaker, I am conversant with the practice of this House in requiring that a letter that a member wishes to quote from should be tabled if he is so asked to do. I am not aware that requirement that a document be signed is necessary in order for any document to be quoted. There have been two documents, or at least one document this morning, tabled in the House and read to members which does not bear a signature. There is a leaflet that also appears not to bear a signature. Whether the document has any validity, Mr . Speaker, is not for me to judge.

I am prepa red to make it public, to table it for the interest of the members involved. I did not say before commencing to read it, Mr . Speaker, that it was in fact a letter. I merely said that I had a document which I believe would shed some light on the dispute that has been before the House and the Committee for the last several days. I cannot 2663 attest to the accuracy of this document, Mr . Speaker, I do not know who wrote it. However, members can draw their own conclusions from the words that I used. If there should be any dispute, Mr.

Speaker, and if the House wishes to delve into the matter any further, perhaps the House might wish to reconsider its decision of yesterday in referring the matter to Privil eges and Elections; or it is not beyond the ability of the government to bring its own Resolution in to do such a thing. But, Mr. Speaker, this document contains some powerful words, strong langu age, some rather emotional content; not the sort of sober, measured words that one would norma lly expect to receive from a legal counsel in making a recommenda tion to his client. It does however, Mr .

Speaker, in my opini on, have a certain ring of truth to it. It shows, I believ e, strong feelings on the part of the writer. It would obv iously have the sort of effect on the Minister tha t he has ad mitted to, of being unenth usiastic, it probably had an even deeper effect on him, Mr . Speaker, and that is perhaps the reason for the reported threat and intimid ation of the Board. Mr. Speaker, I believe that, in the main, this document speaks for itself, and I leave it to honourable members to draw their own conclusions. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. May I quote from Beauchesne, Citations 328 and 329.

"A member may read from extracts from documents, however a speech should no t cons ist of a single, long quotation". In 329, "A member cannot read a letter referring to anything that has taken place in debate in the House.

(2) An unsigned letter should not be read in the House". I refer the honou rable member to that. -(Inter jections) Is this the document that the honourable member has brought forward? MR. WALDING: I believe so, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: This document has no date; it has no sig nature; it is not add ressed to anyone. - (Int erjections) The Honourable Member for St. Vital on a point of order. MR. WALDING: Yes, a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

If you would care to review Hansard I think that you will find that I make no assertion when commencing to read the document, only that I had a document which I believed would provide inform ation and shed light, and that I was intending to read from it. I did not allege that it was a letter; I made no reference to its origin at all. If it seems to be a pro blem for you or for the House, Mr . Speaker, we do have a means of getting to the bottom and ascertaining the truth in the matter, and I leave that for your consideratio n, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

It is not the respons ibility of the Speaker to make the rules; it is the respons ibility of the Speaker to enforce the rules. The rules were not made by this particular Assembly; the rules have been made and changed from time to time. We do have a Rules Committee that has adopted the rules. These rules have been adopted by this Assembly and have been used for many many years.

Friday, 10 April, 1981 I would like to review the tapes of the member's intr oductory remarks. But if the member has not identified this I would have to say that it should not be a part of the record of the House at this time, but I would reserve the right to look at the tapes and review the information that the member gave to the House when he introduced it. The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

In light of the occurrences of the last several minutes, it would seem to me that it would be appropriate to take this entire subject matter and that document to the Committee on Privileges and Elections, and I would so move, in order that the Committee on Privileges and Elections could call witnesses to determine the origin and accuracy of that particular do cument and the surro unding circumstances. I'm sure the members opposite want the truth to come out so I'm sure they will support that motion, and I'm sure the Speaker feels the same way about it.

We want to find the origin; we want to find the date; we want to find out who wrote it and this would seem to be the appropriate method of achieving that end. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Natural Resources on the point of order. HON. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): On the same point of order. This fuzzy kind of example of totally ignoring your situa tion, Mr. Sp eaker, and your suggestion to the House just a few moments ago that this is a problem with respect to a particular Rule of the House.

If it is the problem of how we can place documents or how we can table documents in this House, that's a clear question of the Rules Committee. The Privileges Committee has absolutely nothing to do with it, but it's the kind of fuzzy thinking that is displayed by honourable members opposite with respect to the operation of this House. MR. SPEAKER : On the point of order, the Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, if you 're going to take the matter under advisement, I just wish to remind you that earlier today I quoted from an unsigned, un da ted document when I made ref erence to the fact that one of the Cabin et Mi nisters said that the business community does not recognize that the labour force is willing and able to work and, at that time, Mr. Speaker, you will recall that I was allowed to make reference to an unsigned and undated document. So I am simply reminding you of that, Mr. Speaker, to assist you in arriving at your decision. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for St. Bon iface on the point of order.

MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order. I would also like to remind you that approximately three years ago I quoted a letter that was unsigned. It was somebody giving dir ections on how to handle the dental programs. That was allowed in this House. And then a few weeks after the Pres ident of the Dental Asso ciation adm itted that he had written the 2664 document. So, Mr. Speaker, this is not something new; it has been done quite a few times.

I don't think that a letter that has not been signed, or a document that has not been signed, should have the same impact and people could question it but it certainly has been int roduced in this House many many times, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The Honou rable Mini ster of Agriculture on the point of order. MR. DOWNEY: On the point of order, Mr .

Speaker, the point that I would like to make is that the member who is referring to the document ind icated in his comments that in fact the writer had strong feelings, and either he should provide the writer or the signer of the document that he was prepared to give to the House, or in fact, doing what you have suggested, Mr. Speaker, take it under advisement and review the actual situation dealing with the document. MR. SPEAKER: The Leader of the Opposition on the point of order. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, it appears to me that in view of the remarks that have been made, in particular remarks just now made by the Mini ster of Agriculture, that the most appropriate remedy would be to refer this letter to the Committee on Privileges on Elections, or Rules, so that we can obtain the presence of witne sses and, Mr. Speaker, in that way we'll find out the truth. We don't need to guess in this Chamber; all we need do is do as we requested yesterday, that the Privile ges and Elect ions Committee deal with this, alternatively the Committee on Rules; we can call witnesses.

So we don't have to engage, as the Mini ster of Agriculture just did, ir some sort of insinuations that the document was an imaginary document or a fake document. Let's get to the bottom of this; let's refer it to the Committee, either on Rules, Mr. Speaker,or Privileges and Elections. The oppositon is quite willing and prepared to do that in respect to this document, and I would make that humble suggestion to you, Mr. Speaker, because I know the situation you are now finding yourself in, that would be the appropriate steps. MR. SPEAKER : The Hono urable Memb er for Wellington on the point of order. MR.

CORRIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. It may be useful, Mr. Speaker, to consider, by way of analogy, another document that was tabled in this House this morning. MR. SPEAKER: We're dealing with a particular point of order. I thank all honourable members for their contributions. I will take the matter under advisement, review the tapes, and make a decision at that time. Proceed with Orders of the Day.

QUES TION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honour able Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Education; and the Honour able Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources.

Friday, 10 April, 1981 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order. The Chairman is a little nervous when bringing committee to order without an Opposition because I remember one committee some years ago, it was considerable, the Deputy Speaker was acting as the Opposition. The Member for Radisson. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I left my other committee just for a short time because I did have a couple of questions under Acquisition and Construc tion, which I believe is the item under discussion at this time.

I had forewarned the Minis ter somewhat but not completely, but I am interested in the waters that flow down the La Salle River that are diverted from the Assiniboine so that the farmers in that area can draw water out of the La Salle River to the point where they can irrigate their property. I know in the past that it has been allowed. I see one of my associates has arrived, so he can help me carry on.

But anyway, for the last thr ee years to my knowledge, there has been water tran sferred from the Assiniboine into that La Salle on a temporary basis, and it's usually in the fall to pump the water directly so that the wells can be replenished and that there will be a supply of water. I kno w in the last three years this has been so. Sometimes it has been a little late in the season and not been able to do the job properly because of the weather conditions, where the heavy equipment could not get onto the land because it was wet and damp.

But it is my understanding that there is some consideration of a 1 >rmanent type of facility to pump the water from the Assiniboine into the La Salle, which has been considered. Now, I don't think a final decision has been made but the cost of doing it on a temporary basis every year. it was wise to start that way but I think that we must consider a permanent type of operation for the people in that area so they can make their plans to grow vegetables each year and possibly even running water or sewage in some of the times in the area, if they had an adequate supply of water.

I believe that there has been some people who have made application to draw water out of the La Salle who have been rejected, or at least additional waters that they normally draw, and they have been rejected because of the amounts of water that are there and to take an additional amount of water out at this time I think, would hinder the whole of the operation. I was wondering whether the Mini ster, through his department, has decided, has made any plans for a permanent supply of water into the La Salle at this time.

I do have a couple of further questions but I think I would allow the Honourable Minis ter to reply to some of my statements and questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (lakeside): Mr. Chairman, the honourable member has ob viously done his homework on this particular question because he states the situation on the La Salle pretty accurately. Yes, we have had to reject applications from additional residents in that area who have applied through the Water Resources Branch for the right to take water out of the La Salle.

We've had to do that, of course, in the interests of maintaining the supply of the existing users. We have, as the member has also ind icated , been involved in pumping operations in the past. These operations are not without cost and it is of concern to the department and to me that I believe again this year, with the possibility of short water supplies, an item in the amount of, I believe $80,000 is contained in the Estimates to again make it possible to pump water from the Assinib oine to the La Salle.

This appropriation is not in my Estimates but is covered under my colleague, the Mini ster of Agriculture's Estimates in his Drought Program. It would seem, to apply common sense to the problem, the resolution would be to consider the digging , the building of a permanent channel that would make the transfer of water more economical and be there at such times when it is needed. The de partment is very much aware of the situation. The department is un der considerable pressure from existing users and potential users for additional water supplies from this source.

There is a technical concern that the mere digging of a channel may caus e some problems, princi pally one of concern is salinity. You have to know what kind of terrain and land you are digging thr ough and disturbing when you are moving water about in this way. My Dir ector of Water Resources ind icates and I cer tainly asked him to accelerate the field inv estiga tions that are requi red before such an undertaking can take place. Moneys are set aside for this investigation as well.

Some of it comes un der the general dr ought­ proofing program - while the member wasn't here, I refe rred to earlier unde r the Canada -M anitoba Agreement - which enables us to do the kind of techn ical on -the -field research to get us more information as to the availability of ground water supplies, the possi bil ity of de signating wher e additional dams or storage reservoirs ought to be built. We have to have a concern before we facilitate additional water coming out of the Assiniboine River, that the Assiniboine River flows are there to take it from.

There are heavy irrigation demands on the Assiniboine River, particularly in the Portage area and east. So the problem has to be one of ensuring supply from the Assi ni boine before we build a structure to take it out of the Assiniboine and put it into the La Salle. Mr. Chairman, I can only ind icate to the honour able member, and I thank him for the question, that it's a concern that a number of people have brought to my attention and to the attention of the department, and it would be my hope that we can resolve the technical problems.

The project in itself is not a particularly large one in terms of dollars and cents and certainly if we can clear away some of the technical problems, then I would certainly want to proceed. I know that the Minister of Agriculture is encouraging me to do so, as is the Member for Radisson. MR. KOVNA TS: Thank you, Mr . Chairman, and thank you Mr . Minister. You brought up one point concerning the area around Portage Ia Prairie and it's certainly not my 2665

Friday, 10 April, 1981 intention to push for a particular project that would hi nder or hurt another area, that was not the intention. I appreciate the remarks of the Honourable Minister when he does advise that in the survey, or in the complete plans, that everyt hing has to be considered, and the area around Portage Ia Prairie should be considered and I wouldn't want anything to happen at this point that would cause it any da mage.

I kno w that the development around Portage, the vegetable growing area, has developed very very well and I have that same sort of a future sight of the area around the La Salle that does service and I would love to see, not as a competitor but in addition to Portage Ia Prairie, the area along the La Salle that would be a gr eat vegetable growing area, and it is coming along very nicely now.

I would hope that the amounts of moneys being spent, the figure of $80,000, it almost comes to a point that over the last few years these studies have been taking place and I wouldn't want to see an $80,000 waste - it's not going to be a complete waste - but if we could take that money and put it into the actual structure, I think the structure would be somewhere in the area of a quarter of a million dollars altogether.

I am kind of guessing because I don't have complete background figures, but that $80,000 that has been allocated by the Department of Agriculture this year towards the supply of water into the La Salle, I think would go a long way to paying for that permanent structure. I have a couple of other things and I really am not looking for comments. I have presented the case and I hope that the Mi nister and his department are going to act on it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the honourable member would permit a question.

Is he planning on running in the Morris constituency in the coming election? MR. KOVNATS: I'll be happy to answer that in a minute also. Actually, that makes the third area that I might be planning on running in. But I will be running and I haven't really annou nced as to which area, to the Honourable Minister. But the area around that area is the township of McDonald, I believe, and they're celebrating their 10 0th ann iversary this year.

To the Hono urable Mini ster, I think that would be a beautiful project for the government to be involved in, at least to make the announcement that it's going to happen, as part of their 10 0th ann iversar y celebrat ions in the township of McDonald. No w. I'll move to one other thing. Un less somebody else wants to ask any more questions on this particular subject, I've got one other thing that I would like to talk about, which might bring some speculation as to my running down in the southeast corner of the Province of Manitoba.

I unde rstand that there is some waste disposals being planned in the northern parts of the Uni ted States that border the Canadian border, particularly around where my farm is in Pine y and Menisino area. Through the Department of Natural Resources, have we got any contingency plans to counteract any possibility of contamination coming up from the Uni ted States through un derground waterways, coming and 2666 contaminating the areas in Canada, becaus e I understand from the

article that I read in the paper, that the underground waters do flow north from Un ited States into the area where I do have a concern. It's the Honourable Member for Emerson's area but I do have many friends and a farm in that area, that I am aware of, and I would hope that we do have some contingency plans to counteract any possibility of contamina ted water coming from the United States into Canada. Has the Honourable Minister or his department made any contingency plans if and when, and it looks like it's going to happen - it's not just a hypothetical question.

Maybe at this time it might by hypothetical and I hope the Minister won't just pass it off as saying it's hypothetical, but it looks like it's not too far away from being a reality. Would the Honourable Minis ter care to reply? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the staff advises me that they too have been alerted to the possibility of some site being developed in that general area. They are aware of some hearings or meetings that have been held in the state of Minn esota in this regard.

I would have to firstly dir ect the honourable member that this is of course principally a concern of the Environment Branch of the department of my colleague, the Honourable Mi nister of Corporate and Consumer Affairs and Environmental matters. Dr. Bowen, Director of the Environ ment Division, is appr ised of the situat ion.

I kn ow tha t with the supp ort of his colleague, the Member for Rupertsland, who has an ongoing concern about pollution of our environment wherever it occurs in.j the Province of Manitoba, that the two of you will act as watchdogs, if you lik e, of the role of this government in this matter. 1� We have a serious concern in that area, because I, need not remind the Member for Radisson or the Member for Emerson, that that area is subject and prone to flooding.

The whole Roseau River watershed area contributes to the floods that all too frequently occur in the Red River Valley and we would want to, and we will make it our busine ss to have our. concerns adequa tely represented in any such a decision should we be ab le to ascert ain that's actually been contemplated. My Dir ector of Water Resources, who was contacted this morning by some representatives of the news media on the same subject matter, inf ormed them tha t we have not been able to pinp oint the stage at which the prop osed development is.

However, we've been alerted to it and I'm sure that both from Water Resources, who have a concern with the respect to the water problems in that area, and more specifically the department dir ectly involved with the environmental matters, will be keeping a watch and brief on this. MR. KOVNATS: I'm just about completed now and I thank the hono ur able Mini ster for making his remarks.

My question doesn't really come under Acquisition and Construction but I don't have the opportunity to ask these questions under any other department as I must get back to my own committee that I'm in. 1 would just like to make one passing remark concerning - I guess, conservation officers come und er Natural Resources - just one remark. I

Friday, 10 April, 1981 happen to know the Conserva tion Officer in Pine y who was transferred to another area. Your staff is excellent; the manner in which your department is run in this regard leaves no criticism at all. I was a little bit critical when I had heard of the transfer but I understand that this is a normal procedure and the people directly involved are not unhappy about it and I thought the Honourable Mini ster and his department would like to know about it. You've got a good staff.

I've always found them to be most co­ operative and I would hope that they would keep up the good service that they have always provided the community, particularly in the Piney-Menisino area. Now, just before I leave, last year at this time, I believe it was the Department of Natural Resources that supplied us with, I guess they were white spruce tr ees. Each member was given one thr ough the Department of Natu ral Resources. I am a tree planter.

I plant trees in numb ers which I get at Haddashville and from Indian Head but the trees that were supplied last year, if they are forthcoming again this year, because we must make plans in advance to where we are going to be planting them and negotiating with some of the members for their trees, where the y don't have a cha nce to put them anywhere else, and I hope we're trying to push the department into something that they hadn't planned on but if they had such plans, I would hope that they would announce it very soon so that we can make our plans to plant our trees.

I see the Honourable Member for Emerson, who is my friend and my representative out there, he's here listening to all my remarks and I don't mean to take away his thunder in speaking about his constituency, Jut I happen to be a member and living in that constituency - we have a residence out there - so I'm really protecting my own interests and I'm not ying to take any thunder away from you. I see one of my other associates has just joined me and I'm going to pass on to these other members. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, just before the honourable member leaves, I do want to on behalf of staff, thank him for those expressions of confidence with respect to departmental activities. I make a particular note of it that when, from time to time, departmental staff have to be transferred, that often is accompanied with some difficulty. People are people. The staff membe rs get accustomed to working in a particular area but there are times and reasons why, in the running of the department, a transfer has to take place. I want to assure all honourable members that these are not done lightly.

They involve a great deal of thought and discussion with the individual involved by the personnel branch; by the immediate directors involved in the decision-making process. So I take this moment or two to place on the record that I am particularly appreciative of the member in suggesting and indicating to us from first-hand or practical experience that we have, at least in this particular ins tance, been able to do that in a satisfactory manner. MR. KOVNATS: I don't think we have any more questions. If you would care to pass these items, we can finish the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake.

We'll clean up the whole thing. 2667 MR. HENR Y J. EINARSON: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I have found the comments from the Member for Radisson very interesting and I want to concur with him when he talks about the young spruce trees that are delivered to us in the House once a year, an annual thing, and I want to concur with him and say that it is very appreciated as far as I am concerned, because I am able to get home on the weekend following the receiving of that small spruce tree, that we do find a place on the farm for those trees. I think it's an excellent program.

I hope the Minis ter and his staff, and I want to compliment them as well, that they will continue to follow that practice. Now, Mr. Chairman, to get to the problems that concern me. I want to speak for a few moments on Rock Lake, which I think is an area of the Province of Manitoba that is well known; it has had a gr eat deal of publicity. As you know, Mr. Chairman, in Rock Lake we have both a private park that is operated by private indi viduals. We also have a park that is oper ated there by the Government of Manitoba and that has been going on for many many years.

It is an area of gr eat activity, both in the way of inter est to people who want to go fishing for a weekend, or any time that they have a holiday. Also, it's an area wher e people can enjo y outdoor camping. Also, there are facilities there for them, cabins and what have you, if they want to spend a weekend or even a week or two weeks of holidays. The Rock Lake area, as far as the hotel is concerned, is popularly known as Avery's Hotel, has now been taken over by another syndicate of church people and I think, Mr.

Chairman, are going to do a tremendous job in continuing and even promoting further the activities of Rock Lake. I am hoping, Mr. Chairman, that the Mi nister will see his way clear - and I don't think I need to remind him that he had good intentions and I think my memory goes back about 12 years - that we would be able to do something to improve Rock Lake. In this case, it requires probably the raising of the level of the lake, the purchase of maybe some lands in order to do that.

Also, the dam that has been there for many, many years, is one that has created problems for both myself, to the Min ister, to the department officials, and I need not tell them, they're fully aware of the problems that we've had over the years but I think, Mr. Chairman, that something can be done to improve the situation which will lessen the difficulties that both the staff of the Min ister and myself, would have in future years.

Also, I notice in the Interlake region here, there's a lake they call Swan Lake in it, but I don't think that that Swan Lake is the Swan Lake that is my area, but I do have a matter in regard to Swan Lake, which is east of Rock Lake, where it doesn't take very much, but a small dam would certainly improve the fishing facilities and what have you for the people in that particular community. So, Mr .

Chairman, 1 just want to place on the record the concerns the people have, because we sel l fishing licences to many American tourists that come to Manitoba and find it very interest ing to drop in around Rock Lake to do a considerable amount of fishing. I have entertained and taken people from other parts of the world to b tr o

Friday, 10 April, 1981 that part of Manitoba and they found it a very, very interesting community area which they enjoy very much to visit and have ind icated to me that they've travelled many parts of the country and said they haven 't seen any thing more bea utiful than our community that surrounds Rock Lake. It also is of inter est to people not living in that particular area of Manitoba but to people of other parts of Manitoba and other parts of Canada who come in to visit and enjoy the facilities that we have there.

So I would maybe ask the Min ister if he wanted to make some comments as to what the future of that particular area is in the near future. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, to the Honourable Member for Rock Lake, the situation at Rock Lake has presented its difficulties over the years. I want to indic ate to the honourable member that there are a number of things that the department will be doing in the general area.

Firstly, from the Director of Parks, who should ind icate to the honourable member that we have in the Estimates this year for a general cleaning up and sprucing up of the picnic facilities there, improvement to such things as the washrooms, etc., which I'm sure the people who use the facilities will appreciate, in seeing that the area is receiving that attention.

Very often, as the member will appr eciate, it's some of the smaller things, in terms of dollars and cents, that help to leave the kind of impr ession tha t we' d like to leave, as Manitobans, particularly for our visitors but also for our own people that use the facility. I'm further advis ed from Water Resources that studies have been taken with respect to soil inf ormation that would perhaps give us the accurate data to consider reconstruction or the construction of a new dam. The question of water levels is a peren nial one at Rock Lake.

I have made a commitment to meet with in terested parties and people in and around Rock Lake. I have been given to unde rstand that there is, as always, a conflict of int erest as to the levels that the lake should be maintained or held at, at play here as well as they are anywhere else when we talk about lake levels but that there is a fairly high degree of unanimity in what is the desirable level. It will be my in tention of discussing these with the inter ested people in and around Rock Lake.

We will, of course, continue again this year the Algae Control Program which, while it doesn't solve the problem, it certainly helps maintain the problem to a manageable level. These, Mr. Chairman, are the comments that I can make at this time to the Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, I want to say that I was appreciative of the fact that the Minister did make the ann ouncement about the treatment of Rock Lake and I want to inform him and his staff that that was very much appr eciated ; it was something that did make a tremendous improvement in the quality of the water. also the fishing last winter was very good. We have no complaints on that but there are times. sometimes, when the conditions aren't so good but as far as the treatment of that lake was concerned, it was much appreciated and I say, Mr.

Chairman, that this solved an awful lot of problems. 2668 There's been a test that was done on Rock Lake at the west end by, I believe - I don't know if it's the PFRA or some institution that picked that lake - they were doing tests, I believe, to determine the bottom of the level of the lake as it was maybe years ago and compare it in the last two years. I wonder if the Min ister or his staff would have any information as to what the results of those findings were. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, my dir ector inf orms me that he's not specifically aware of that.

There is the possibility, as I ind icated in my few remarks earlier, that we were - there had been tests taken at the east end of the lake, that is, siting for a possible new site for a future dam. That activity - the member shakes his head that that's not in the general area that we're discussing. It's possible, I suppose, that PFRA or somebody might have been doing some work in there, although one would think that the branch would be aware of it, but we will make a note of the member's request and check it out. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, there was some testing done at the west end of the lake and I agree with the Min ister that, whoever was doing it, and I'm not positive - I'm sorry, I should have had that information - I'm not sure if it was PFRA, whether it was Ducks Unlimi ted, but it was not your department, Mr. Min ister. It was somebody else, but I would have thought that they would have had some consultation with the officials of your department as to what they were doing and after they've completed their tests, give you some kno wledge as to the results of their tests. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, just one final comment on Rock Lake, what with the heightened oil activity in , the province, it might have been Chevron or Shell that was doing the testing, but we would want to be very concerned about the continuing environment of Rock Lake, should that be the case. MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, just one final comment. Should that be the case that close to home, I'd be personally inter ested too. MR. CHAIRMAN: 13 .(a) - pass - the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

A.R. (Pete) ADAM: I wonder if the Minister has any of the information that he undertook to provide for me in the last couple of days on any of the questions that I asked that he took as notice. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I did provide at the close yesterday or I believe in the afternoon session, some additional information to questions. I wonder if the member could help me with the particular information that he believes I have not yet provided him with. MR.

ADAM: Yes, I asked for a list of cottage lots that were available for sale and I asked for a list of - but we could wait until Monday; I assume that we'll not be able to complete by 12 :30 anyway - a list of the contracts on surveyi ng. Also, I wanted to ask - I'm not sure whether there was another item as well - but anyway I wanted to ask the Mini ster - there were problems that keep coming up every

Friday, 10 April, 1981 year on an annual basis in regard to the operation of the town of Grandview dam, I think, for water. The operation of that dam keeps flooding out a number of farmers and this is an annual thing that keeps coming back to us. It's in the constituency of Roblin, I think, at the present time. It's been an ongoing problem. Has the problem been resolved? Is the Highways Department involved as well? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the situation at Grand view, there have been some difficulties, I suppose you could describe them as such, over the years.

They have a dam there that has to be drawn down prior to spring run-ofl every year and there is always some inde cision there on whether or not the dr aw-down occurred. We have checked that out and to our satisfaction, the draw­ down was sufficient this last year to accommodate the capacity at the reservoir to fill up again in the springtime. This situation is being corrected, though, by a commu nit y dugout facil ity th at will be constructed, from which Grandview will then be able to maintain a year round stable water supply source.

This has been delayed somewhat because of the positioning of No. 5 Highway there. The Member is correct. My information, as supplied to me by staff, is that highway construc tion will be comp leted September of this year and the construction of the dugout can then proceed very likely in the fall of the year. Just to conclude, that then envisages that the existing dam will be removed, can be removed, or it will be removed. MR. ADAM: We ll, that's nice information to hear because I've been here for a number of years and I think that problem comes back to our attention <Jvery year.

Apparently the operation of the dam was not being operated according to the licensing and there has been a recurring problem of having to ·emove dirt or earth from the top of the dam, the existing dam, for the spring run-off and most of the time, as I understand it, it was never removed and what happened was that the water came along and took it all down the river which could also cause some environm ental problems.

So, to have this problem resolved, I know that the Highways was involved and also having concern with a good water supply and potable water supply for the Town of Grandview had to be taken into consideration. But the problem of almo st annual flooding on approximately 8 or 10 farm involved in the area was also an ongoing concern that we were trying to add ress ourselves to and I'm happy to hear that once and for all we can close the files on that thing if in fact this is going to proceed as planned and completed this fall. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I don't take issue at all with the honourable member that there haven't been repeated problems in that community with respect to their water supply and the flooding problems occasioned by the dam. I think that has all brought the wheels of government to turn, as they inevitably do, and we have the firm intentions of rectifying the situation in the coming year. The member will appreciate that several departments were involved.

Principally, you know, the location, siting of the major provincial Trunk Highway was a pri ncipal obstacle, if you like, in the last little while, to get that 2669 straightened away before we could proceed from Water Resources' point of view to resolve the water issue there. But the honourable member has the assurance, that he knows he takes as gospel when it comes from me, that that will be looked after this year. MR.

ADAM: I take it then that the gospel is that the dam will be removed next fall, completely removed from the river and there will be no, at least hopefully, there won't be any more flooding, not as a result of the dam, to the farmlands in that area and that the community of Grandview will be assured of their water supply, providing we don't have ongoing droughts of course. MR. CHAIRMAN: 13 .(a) - pass. 13 .(b). The Honourable Member for St. Rose. MR.

ADAM: Does the Mi ni ster have any involveme nt, or does this department have any involvement in regard to a project proposed by the Parkland Regional Devel opment in regard to development of recreat ional fa ciliti es on Lake Manitoba, with a proposal to go over from Lake Manitoba to Lake Winni pegosis? MR. ENNS: I belie ve the honourable member is probably referring to a report that the department has just rec ently received. I don't have the appropriate name for the report; it's quite a thick document.

The department has received that report and it is now going through the review by the various disciplines within the department and certainly, while it would be premature to suggest any action to be taken flowing from that report and I wouldn't want to leave the impression that there is any allocation of funds in this set of Estimates for any projected work as a result of that report, but, I think the Member will appreciate that report has only just arrived in the department, and I think I'm correct if I say within the last four to six weeks or in that area, and that it will now be looked at.

In time, if we can see merit in some of the proposals, it will fol low the normal course of finding a way in the priority-setting process of the department and certainly we would want, in due course, to hold further discussions with the group that was involved in the compiling of the report and to see whether or not what additional services, from a recreational point of view, we can provide as a result of that. I must say to the honourable member th at certainly a major init iative of the department, under the direction of Mr.

Derek Doyle, has been to really look at the natural resource corridors that we have in Manitoba, to look for ways and means of maximizing their potential use for Manitobans firstly, and of course the many visitors that come to our province. 1 think the member was here during the earlier part of the consider ation of these Estima tes when 1 discussed briefly the kind of plans that we have for the linear development a corridor-type park with recreat ional faci lities, involving both private and government facilities along the Assiniboine.

It's our hope that we can take that concept in time to other water stretches, other areas of the province that are serviced by road, intercon nected by water, to some of our fine recreational facilities that we have in the province.

Friday, 10 April, 1981 MR. ADAM: I'm not sure what report the Minis ter refers to. I know there was a dr aft proposal by the Parkland Regional Development last year, perhaps even in 19 79, but certainly in the early part of the Eighties.

The proposal was that they would have maps - what's the term for it, oceanography, or whatever it is, the maps for water - the proposal was that we'd have a number of stop-over places, recreational facilities along Lake Manitoba on the west side, I believe the proposal was, which would tie in very well with the Assini boine Div ersion, the Portage -(I nterject ion)- yes, it probably would tie in very well with that. There would be a number of stop-overs, recreational facilities, camping facilities along the west shore of Lake Manitoba.

It would end up in the northw est corner of Lake Manitoba, and there was a proposal there. There used to be a railway across the Meadow Portage at one time; there was a portage there and they used to portage from one lake to the other over a railway of some kind - there were tracks anyway - I don't know whether there was an engine there moving cars over a track or whether they were drawn by horses, I'm not sure. The long-term proposal was perhaps a grandio se proposal, to have a canal across that narrow stretch of land to tie in with Lake Win npegosis.

Of course, that's a long-term and a big project that would have to receive in -depth study on the environm ental impact it would have on the lakes and what have you. Nevertheless, the proposal was that there could have been even overland transportation for boats that came up to the landing on the west side of Lake Manitoba and would be portaged over to the Lake Winnip egosis area and then they could continue on as far as they want up north. There was no end to the possibilities of the scheme and it was a very well thought out and a well planned endeavour by the Parkland group.

Now the Minister talks about a report. I would sure like to see the report, what he is really refe rring to. I'm referring to the proposal as presented I belie ve to government, to myself and to other interested members in the area. I am sure the Member for Roblin and the Member for Dauphin were all involved in getting copies of this proposal from the Parkland Regional Development Corporation. If the Min ister has another report that has not been tabled, if it's available to members of the Legislature, I would sure appreciate having a copy. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, no doubt there have been a number of different proposals put before government from time-to-time in the general area that the honourable member is speaking about. The report that I am referring to is possibly one other report, although I must say it is a fairly extensive one. I should indic ate that it is not a report that initia ted and comes from the Department of Natural Resources.

I am trying to remember the name - it's the Water Route Association that ties in the whole concept of Lake Manitoba to Lake Winnp egosis and probably in my judgment I have only had a chance to skim through the report - but in my judgment, it encom passes very much what the honourable member is speaking about. I will make it a point, if the honourable member reminds me, to borrow the report that I have.

I only have one copy and I think there is only one cop y that was sent to the 2670 department, that the department is revie wing, but I'd be pl eased next week sometime, to gi ve the honourable member that report as information. Again, without being specific about it, there's no question that this concept is the kind that fits in with the policy direction that we would like to develop in our overall recreational strategy for Manitoba within the department over the next number of years. It will to some extent, move ahead with the kind of demand that we can develop.

We look to our announced intentions on the Assiniboine River as being, if you like, a first effort in this kind of a concept for a recreational facility. I think more and more in the future we would want to develop those kind of opportunities, vacation opportunities, for Manitobans and visitors to travel from point A to B, to C, to D. There has been I suppose in the past that they have served and will continue to serve a very imp ortant and useful function in the recreational scheme of thin gs in Ma ni toba, the kind of set pieces, if you likely, namely, whether it's the Whiteshell complex or the others.

There is - and I note with encouragement - this conc ept devel oping within the department that people like to take that kind of leisurely travelling. They have a vacation experience this way which includes sur face road tr ansportation in some instances, the possibility to take to water in different stretches, to enjoy picnic grounds, camping facilities en route, and I think this is the kind of recreation that will become increasingly popular in our province and the dir ection that I seek the honourable member's support in helping to achieve. MR. ADAM: I am not sure whether we are speaking of the same report.

I don't have the proposal by the Parkland Development before me but I do have a copy somewhere. I felt that it had tremendous potential as a recreational development and also to have the pr ivate individu als in volved to accommodate any traffic, or boat traffic that would come along, stop-overs and even cottages. I know there was a proposal by the Ebb and Flow Band. They were quite interested in developing part of the reserve as a stop-over place to tie in with this proposal. There's also other areas like we see here, the Bruce up at Silver Ridg e or Kinosota area, Margaret Bruce wayside I think.

Is that along the lake? Here is another opportunity to expand that particular area, if there was going to be really a program put into place, maybe on an ongoing basis, maybe not necessarily all in one year, but I mean we could start and carry on from there. I see the Mi nister wants to ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour of 12: 30 having arrived, I move Committee rise for Private Mem bers' Hour. Committee rise. SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN , Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This committee will come to order.

I would direct the honourable members' attention to page 49 of the Main Estimates, Department of Education, Resolution No. 53, Clause 4, Program Development and Support Services, Item (

m) Student Aid,

(1) Salaries - pass.

Friday, 10 April, 1981 The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, there was a bit of noise, I didn't realize you had recognized me. This is of course an area which has become of greater and greater concern with the years. When we are dealing with this particular government we have to start back to 19 77 when they took office; we have to look at what the tuition fees were then.

I would like the Mi nister to give us a calculation as to what the in crease in fees was since then and of course when we are dealing with Student Aid we are talking about assisting people to go to universities, to go to the vocat ional schools. Wha t is the percentage in crease in fees at Red River? Wh at is th e percentage in crease in fees at the Un iversity of Manitoba and the Un iversity of Winnip eg?

It is under this government that rental incr eases have been al lowed once again to substantially lead inflation in this province, and so that is another one of the costs of a student th at has gone up dramatically, not 8 percent or 9 percent, but more than that a year; that is one of the legacies that this government is giving to the students in this province.

Under this go vernment there has been a very minim al incr ease in the mimimum wage and of course university students and vocational students, when they are working part-time or when they are working in the summer time, generally are those who are among the lowest pai d, and of course that means that they haven't been getting the kind of assistance from their wages that they did in the past compared to the costs that they had in school.

Just one example of that is to look west of us to Saskatchewan where the minimum wage just a little while ago was 50 cents an hour more than in Manitoba, although it was the same as in Manitoba in 1977. So when we look at access to th e Un iversities and you look at 40-hour weeks, that's $20 a ·week, that's $80 or more a month that it is costing studerts in Ma nitoba to be Man itobans because of a Tory government. Those are the costs, some of the cost in creases that students have had since 19 77. Their inflation rate has been more than the ordinary inflation rate for rental, for student fees, for books.

They have to pay the regular going in fla ted rate for food and cloth ing, and the government has done little in this three-and-a-half year period to provide for gr eater amounts of grants or loans to students. I would like the Min ister to compare what has happened to incr eases in gr ants since 1977 -1981 with what happened from 19 69 to 19 77 for instance, comparing from 19 69 to 19 77 the in crease in the minimum wage; comparing from 19 69 to 19 77 any incr eases, percentage yearly increases, in tuition fees, and I'm sure he will agree they were minimal compared to what his go vernment is doing to students.

I know he will say, oh we are low in Canada, we are low. Yes, and we were low in 19 77, and under the former government we kept it low. Under the former government we said from 19 69-77 there will be minimal in creases, if any, in fees for people to go to vocati onal schools and to the universities and we kept our word.

I didn't hear that government, that party, in 19 77 going up and down the streets saying, hey, elect us, we'll hit the students for gr eater student fees; we are 2671 not going to do anything to improve bursaries; we are not going tok do anything to improve loans; and compared to the rate of inflation, I would suggest that little has been done to in crease in real dollars the amount s of loans avai lable, the amounts of bursaries available.

Any little in crease that they have given, even in real dollar terms, and there may be in some specific areas, in some specific areas they may be able to point to something and say, hey, in actual 1977 dollar terms this particular student or that particular student, or one or three groups are better off today than in 19 77. I say to the Min ister, big deal, because we expect improvements, we expect that our education system will become a system with the years which will be one which more people can have access to rather than less people. I suggest that since 19 77 the thrust has been toward less people.

From 19 69 to 19 77 the thrust was toward more people, more rights, more equality of opportunity in education in this province. This Mini ster and this government has been going in the opposite dir ection and I find that it is sad that I have to stand here and say that. I want to point out to the Mini ster we haven't been saying that with respect to special needs where we agree that the government has continued on with improvements for students.

In many areas the Mini ster of Education, the go vernment, has continue d on with improvements to education, but somehow it seems that when you get past Grade 12 the buck stops here; that at that point they say well from here on let's just do it on whoever can afford it. If you happen to qualify for a loan then we will send out our inspectors; we will audit you from top to bottom; we will check your gr ocery bills; we will check all your accounts and we will check your bank balances.

We will tell you to pay to the bank, you go to the bank and you pay them $8 for photo-copying this; you got to the credit union and check records; you go to your former employer years back and ask for wage records. That's not something this governiT)ent does to the small businessman when they give the man in Treherne a free freezer to sell meat. They give him $30,000 and say nice fellow there, away you go. They don't ask him what his annual income was the year before; they don't ask him to show a statement of income and expenses, or assets and liabilities, or anything like that.

Oh, no, they just pat him on the back and say here's your freezer, ·hope you sell lots of turkeys and away you go. Do they do that to students? Oh, no, oh no. I saw one, Mr. Chairman, I saw one audit where a notice was given to a student of · a decrease in the amount payable to that student and they'd come to their calculations, possi bly the mathematical equations were correct, but at the bottom of the page the notice said that there can be no appeal of this decision within six weeks of the end of the term and you know, Mr.

Chairman, the appeal for that notice was received within six weeks of the end of the term. So, there was no right of appeal even. There is no right to go to any group and say, hey, there is a problem here, we disagree with this number. The Auditor could say; ah, but there is no right of appeal anymore. There is a right of appeal but not within six weeks of the end of the term. So, that's your old "Catch-22". You have a right of appeal but you don't have a right of appeal; that's a neat trick and I'm

Friday, 10 April, 1981 sure some Tory bureaucrat stayed up nigh ts to dream up that one. In fact when I saw that I was shocked and it seems to me that is something that the Minister would want to look at to make sure that it will never ever occur again. It would be very simple to change that by giving a student a minimum of one month or two months or some thing like that to appeaL The Mini ster may stand up and say well the regulation was passed under the old government; it may well be.

Under the old government I would suggest that the auditing system was efficient enough so that these notices weren't going out at the end of the term. they were going out at the beginnin g of the term when they were supposed to go out so that students would kno w where they stand for their school year. If they are given a loan of $1 ,200 or $1 ,500 they should know that they are getting it.

If they are getting a bursary of that amount they should know that they are getting it and they should have the money in order that they can budget their affairs because that's the other trick, that's the other exploding cigar that the department seems to have come up with. They say at the end of the year; you've survived, you made it okay you're still alive, what did you need the money for? You don't need the money. We did an audit on you; you are a statistic;