Manitoba Hansard — 24 November 1989 (Sitting 78, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-78

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, November 24, 1989. The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Mr. Speaker: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports, Notices of Motion. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Is there leave to go back to Tabling of Reports? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to revert back to Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports? (Agreed) The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. Mr. Ducharme: I table the Housing Estimates for the year 1989 - 1990 , Supplementary Information for Legislative Review. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct Honourable Members ' attention to the gallery where we have with us this morning , from the O.V. Jewitt School, ninety-two Grade 5 students, and they are under the direction of Rhonda Beddome . This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema) . On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here th is morning . ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Advisory Network Report Release Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) . Mr.

Speaker , we are becom ing incr easingly concerned on this side of the House that the Minister of Health is using a report by the Health Advisory Network as a smoke screen . Last May, when we fi rst asked questions about 85 beds at the Deer Lodge Hospital and why they were not being used for much needed patient care, he told us that he would have an answer in just a few weeks. Then we were told the report would be ready in November. Earli er this week we were told the report would be ready in a week .

In Estimates yeste rday he said , well, he could not even guarantee that the report would be ready by the end of December. Can the Minis ter of Health tell this House today when he will receive this report and when he will act on it? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): At each time that I have been asked by Honourable Members in the Opposition as to the timing of my receipt of the Health Advisory Network Extended Treatment Bed Report, I have reported to my honourable friend the inform ation on timing that I have received from the committee . That continues to be the circumstance .

I continue to expect the report, and I would believe - (int erj ection)- My honourable friend , the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) says, what is going on here? Mr. Speaker, what is going on here is an investigation into the extended treatment bed needs in the system of health care in Manitoba , and that is taking more time at the committee level than expected even by the committee . I cannot force them, as my honourable friend the Liberal Leader would be wont to do, to deliver that report any sooner- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Leader of the official Opposition . Mrs.

Carstairs: This Government has been the Government for 19 months , and they made this promise of this Health Advisory Network immediately upon assuming office . Now what is wrong with this Government that they cannot get, from their appointed body, a report essential to the health care needs of Manitobans? *

(1005) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the frustrations expressed by my honourable friends in the Opposition when they have been faced with so much good news in the capital budget in this past week. I simply remind my honourable friend , the Liberal Leader, that had we followed the advice of the Liberal Party and the New Democratic Party, we would have proceeded with the construction of Klinic, giving them less space than the decision announced this week and costing the taxpayers of Manitoba probably $500,000 more.

That was urged upon Government by Members of the Opposition who , when someone protests , believe decisions of Government should be made according to the decibel level of the protest. Mr. Speaker, we do not make decisions like that. We make good decisions , and they save money to the people of Manitoba. Health Care Administrative Decisions Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition) : The frustration comes from a Minister who will not address the fundamental needs of Manitobans. This Minister has not committed himself to having a binding reaction to this report.

If he is not bound by this report , and since it has been 19 months in the making, why 3216

Friday, November 24, 1989 will he not just make the decisions essential to the health care of Manitobans? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I appreciate the questions from the Leader of the Liberal Party who promis ed us a royal commission into health care that probably would have taken many years. I ask, rhetorical ly, was the Liberal Party, should they have achieved Gove rnment, going to be bound by what the royal commission they were going to strike would recommend to the health care system?

Surely, my honourable friend jests that every report Government brings forward they must be bound by the results of it. If that is the kind of Government my honourable friend is going to lead, as Govern ment-in-wait ing, then we simply do not need her as Premi er, or any of her Members. We simply farm out the decisions to task force and royal commissions. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what the Min ister of Health of doing. He is refusing to make decisions. He is passing them out to task forces, and then he says, well, I may not pay any attention to them anyway. Mr.

Speaker, we need- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please; ord er, please. The Honourable Leader of the official Opposition. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, there are critical decisions which need to be made, and this Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) cannot wait 15 years to make those decisions with regard to institutions like the Health Sciences Centre, which he said he was going to do yesterd ay. When will this Mini ster take the job he has been entrusted with, proper ly, and make the decisions to use 85 beds that are built, constructed, ready for operation?

Why will he not make that decision today? Mr. Orchard: Those decisions will be made just as the decision, as I indicated this morning, was made with Klinic. Had I follo wed my honourable friend' s advice, the Liberal Leader and all her colleagues, we would have rushed headlong into the construction of a building that was smaller and at least $500,000 more expensive to the taxpayers of Manitoba, if I had rushed in and made those decisions. We made the responsible decision of taking some time and a second look. We do not have a blank checquebook like the Liberal Party bel ieves the people of Manitoba should have.

We saved $500,000 minimum in one construction project alone and gave those people greater space to deliver care to people. Now, how can you ever say that was a bad decision? That was an "every one wins" decision, but the Liberals would have said, build it and do not care about the cost last year. *

(1010) De er Lodge Hospital Extended Care Beds Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the beds are built. The construction costs have been covered. Every one has been paid for. These beds lie vacant. Why is this Minis ter not prepared to put much needed patients in those beds so service can be appropriately del ivered to the seniors and ailing patients of the Province of Manitoba? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): As I have indicated, since this question was broached in May by the Liberal He alth Critic, we have budgeted for the occupancy of those beds at Deer Lodge Hospital, funds are available. I want to commit th ose beds to the hig hest priority need in ext ende d trea tment, be it chronic care, rehabil itative care, personal care, as identified by the Extended Treatment Bed Review, a very logical process of in formed decision making because we can immed iately commit those beds, but I want to commit them right.

I do not want to make a wrong decision as I would have done with Klinic had I followed all the advice from the Opposition and th rashed ahead with a $2.9 million construction project that was on the table ready to proceed. We saved money by delaying that decision. We delivered Klinic with more space to operate to deliver programs to people. Those informed decisions will continue to be made by this Government. Mrs. Carstairs: This Mini ster does not even lis ten to the flaws of his own arguments. He talks about hig hest priority needs. He is not even meeting the needs, because he will not use the beds.

He has 85 beds. They are empty. Nobody is in them. Sick people are not able to get appropriate care. Why is it that this Mini ster cannot make a simple decision to use those 85 beds to meet the needs of the ill in the Province of Manitoba? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, for the very reason that the decision may be simple in the mind of the Liberal Opposition Leader, it is not simple in regard to the needs in the health care system.

If I had those answers, tod ay, those beds would be committed and staffed , but the Extended Treatment Bed Review has not indicated whether the greatest need is chronic care, extended treatment or personal care, because my honourable friend ought to know that any decision at Mu nicipals, at Concordia and Grace are construction decisions. They will take upwards of two to two and a half years before th ose beds are ready for service.

That is why the 85 beds that are available today at Deer Lodge ought not to be committed for less than the most impo rtant priority in the system, which will be recommended to us by informed discussion and investigation by the Health Advisory Network Extended Treatment Task Fo rce. If we rush headlong, as the Liberal Party did last year with Klini c, we may well make the incorrect decision and not meet the most pressing needs. I do not intend to bring that kind of shim-sham management to the health care system. 3217

Friday, November 24, 1989 Health Minister Pay Equity Position Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we finally found out how the economic policies and health care policies of the Tories fit together. They will depress the economy so much that they can pick up real estate at half the price when the economy goes down so they can build some of the needed health care facilities. It is a white elephant Min ister of Health, Mr. Speaker, with 85 beds vacant while seniors sit in hal lways.

He has not yet provided any answers to this Chamber and to the people of Manitoba, this disgraceful year-and a-half situation. My qu est ion is to the Premier on a related management matter with the Mini ster of Health (Mr. Orchard). The Premier has stated and reiterated in his Speech from the Thr one that Ma ni toba was "maintaining the lead in the pay equity sector, in the public sector and private sector of the province," and mentioned it considerably in the Speech from the Throne. We have had successes in pay equity in the general public service.

We have had successes in Crown corporations under former Go vernments and this Government. We have had successes with Telephone and Hydro and other Crown corporations. * (1015 ) My qu est ion to the Premier is this: the only breakdown there is with the Mini ster of Health (Mr. Orchard) and the health care unions and employers. Is the Premier satisfied that the comments he made to the Wo men's Agenda on Pay Equity in the Public Service were accurate?

Or, is the breakdown in pay equity in the pub lic sector the only breakdown and only failure in the health care sector a result of the anti union, anti-emp loyee bias of the Min ister of Health? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr . Speaker, the money for the pay equity implementation in health care is in the budget, it has been budgeted for. The dispute that currently exists between the health care unions and institutions about the pay equity implementation is before the Labour Board. We are awai ting their review and their judgment on that matter. Health Care Profession Pay Equity Implementat ion Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): All the emplo yers, 23 hospitals and 10 unions, came to an agreement on pay equi ty. When they were sent back by the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard), they came to a second agreement that according to the Premier's own Pay Equity Bureau is within the law of the Province of Manitoba.

Would the Premier please intervene with the Mi nister of Heal th whose biases are well-known in this province to ensure that the successes and the leadership that Manitoba has taken in the pay equity field will not be squandered away by the anti-emplo yee bias which was exhi bited by 500 nurses out in front of this building, and ensure that we have success in the pay equity sector rather than failure through the personality of the Mini ster of Health? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Since my honourable friend wants to attempt to malign my particular approach to management in the health care system, I feel compelled to respond. I want to remind my honourable friend the legislation that was passed regarding pay equit y, as it applied to the 23 facilities that he has named, has guidelines in legislation. Mr. Speaker , we have budgeted sufficient funds this year. Fu nds have been set aside last year to retroactively put in place pay equ ity.

What we are seek ing with the unions and the hospitals, the 23 facilities involved, is an ability to comply with the legislation involving 1 percent per year of pay. That agreement has been negotiated. This Government is fully prepared, not only in terms of motivation but in terms of funding, to meet that legis lative guideline in the health care system. Health Care Profession Pay Equity Implementation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My qu estion is to the Minis ter of Labour (Mr s. Hammond) and the Minis ter responsible for the Pay Equity Branch.

Can the Min ister confirm that she has opinions, that the settlements reached by all the hospital administrators and all the unions were within the law and therefore able for impl ementation, contrary to what the Mini ster of Health is saying here in this Chamber today? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Mem ber's question seeks an opinion and is therefore out of order. Will the Honourable Member kindly rephrase his question, please? Mr.

Doer: Will the Minis ter of Labour confirm that she has received -(interjection)- will the Minis ter of Labour table the opinion she has received citing the fact that the emplo yers in the health care sector, 23 emp loyers and the 10 uni ons, have reached an agreement consistent with the pay equity legislation and ther efore is able for implementation by the Government? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minister of Labour): This matter is before the Labour Board and when they make a decision, then we will abide by it. School Boards Voluntary Pay Equity Plan Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr .

Sp eaker, it is a shame tha t this Minis ter - (interjection)- My final question is to the Premi er. Will he confirm that his Cabinet has made a decision after consultation with the school boards and municipalities not to proceed in the same legislated way as we had proceeded in pay equity and is going to allow for some wishy-washy 3218

Friday, November 24, 1989 volunta ry program, again an abd ication of the leadership of the Government of Manitoba in providing pay equity for women in the public service as a model for the private sector? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): We are committed to the full implementation of the legislation that was passed by this Legislature, Mr. Speak er. That administration, of which the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) was a part, did not proceed in tha t area of mun icipal Government and school boards.

I think probably for some particular purpose, they did not want to proceed with it. * (10 20) We are proceed ing by way of consultation and discussion to develop a plan for pay equity in those areas that we believe is appropriate to them, and that they obviously will support because it requires the full support of those people who are in those areas to make it successful. That is why the provincial pay equity legislation has been successfully implemented because it was done in co-operation with all the people involved, and that is the only way it is going to be successful.

That is why we are into consultations with those other levels of Government. Decent ralizat ion Policy Civil Servant Options Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honourable Member for Ellice. Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): We can und erstand the concerns about the decentralization, given that it was the Min ister of Rural Development (Mr. Penner) who appointed the decentralization committee. It was the same Min ister who, later on in Estima tes, seemed to know nothing about the functioning of that committee. My question, Mr.

Speaker, is for the Min ister responsible for The Civil Service Act which governs the working conditions of all civil servants across the province. We know, Mr. Speaker, it is the positions that will be decentralized. My question to the Min ister is, what options will the civil servants have who presently occupy those designated positions? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minister responsible for The Civil Service Act): Mr. Speaker , we met with the union, the MGEA, before the Premier made his announcement in Brandon to inform them exactly what was happening.

We will abide by the colle ctive agreement and we will be working with the union as far as job allocations. Decent ralization Policy Civil Servant Options Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr. Speaker , again we know why there is concern about this decentralization process because the Mi nister has really not indicated exactly what options will be available to civil servants. I have a sup plementary question to the same Min ister.

Can the Min ister indicate to us, today, will th ose civil servants who are now occupying those desig nated positions have the option to ask for and receive transfers should they feel that they cannot move into areas in rural Manitoba? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, you know, I think what we have to establish here is the hypocrisy of the Liberal Party on this issue. Here we have in the Opasquia Times of Fe bruary 10, 1989, the headli ne: "Carstairs favours decentral izat ion.

Carstairs told the Times that if she were to form a Government next week, some bureaucrats would be heading north to The Pas, Thompson and perhaps Fl in Fl on." Mr. Speaker, then yesterd ay, at the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, the real story comes out. She says: "I don't want to take a lot of Wi nnip eggers and move them to rural Manitoba." This issue the Liberal Party cannot duck, cannot weasel around as they always do, Mr. Speaker. They have to make it known where do they stand, and we know where they stand, and all of Manitoba knows where they stand.

They are against decentralization and they cannot speak out of both sides of their mouth. Ms. Gray: Mr. Sp eaker, this Premier of the province seems to feel that we do believe in decentraliza tion, but you also have to ensure that there is a process in place and you guys have caused the morale of the- ***** Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please. Before I recognize the Honourable Fi rst Minis ter on this point of order, I would like to remind the Honourable Member for Ellice this is Question Period and not a time for debate. The Honourable Fi rst Min ister, on a point of order. * (1 025) Mr.

Filmon: I distinctly heard the Member for Ellic e (Ms. Gray) in her reference to this side of the House refer to us as "you guys". I think that is an insult to the Member for Kirkfield Park (Mrs. Hammond), that is an insult to the Member for Gladstone (Mrs. Oleson), that is an insult to the Member for River East (Mr s. Mitchelson), and I would ask her to apologize please, Mr. Speaker . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honourable Member for Ellice, on the point of order raised by the Honourable Fir st Minis ter. Ms.

Gray: On the same point of order, my concern for the civil servants of this province obviously caused me to use the cliche "you guys," and I certainly would apologize, which is more than they have ever done when they have said "poor- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Ord er, ple ase; order , plea se. Unequ ivocably-1 would like to thank the Honourable Member for Ellice. 3219

Friday, November 24, 1989 ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Ellic e, with her final sup plementary question. Ms. Gray: With a question to the Min ister responsible for the Civil Service Commission, whoever that may be, my question to the Min ister responsible for The Civil Service Act, can she indicate to this House today, given that she has probably been involved in some of these consultations with the MGE A, what specific options, or will civil servants have the option to ask for transfers within the Civil Service Commission if they happen to be in positions that are desig nated for a transfer? Mr.

Filmon: On May 23 of this year in this Legislature the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr s. Carstairs) said, "Why cannot this Government act? Why after a year in power do they still not kno w where the y can decentralize? Moving full and partial Government departments are examples of decentralization, and we have had none of that from this Government," she said. The full and partial Governments involve people, Mr. Speaker. People who will be moved out of Winnipeg to other areas, that is what the Liberal Party said they were in favour of on May 23, and now they are against it. They cannot have it both ways.

They cannot weasel around and speak out of both sides of their mouths, and the Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray) had better not try and tell people that she is on both sides of this issue. She either- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Health Sciences Centre Emergency Ward Upgrading Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): The Mi nister of Health said yesterday in this House that the emergency

section of the Health Sciences was in architectural design. There is no mention of Health Sciences emergency in his

Schedule Ill which clearly states the projects appr oved for architectural planning for th is year. Can the Mini ster of Health today apologize to the House for giving wrong information? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): No, Mr. Speaker, because the wrong information was not given. Functional planni ng, architectural design will follow when we have the functional plan to design the plans around, contrary to what my honourable friend said yesterd ay, where he sa id, build the emergency department at Health Sciences Centre. I do not know how you do that without a plan.

Maybe the Li berals have a plan in that regard, but I do not. Mr. Cheema: This Min ister is deli berately misleading this House. My question is, Mr. Speaker, the O/ R rooms at the He alth Sciences Centre are on the seventh floor. Trauma patients have to go through a zigzag path and they have to go to the seventh floor and wait for five or 10 minutes on the first floor. This is not a laughing matter, it is for the 60,000 patients who come to this hospital every year.

Can the Minis ter of Health state why he has not addressed this issue, and why he is ignoring the patients of Ma ni toba, as well as northwest Ontario and Saskatchewan? * (1 030) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend's

preamble to his question is totally wrong. We are not igno ring th ose needs there. Those needs in the emergency section, in the Podium Project or the HA Project at the He alth Sciences Centre were announced in 1978 as part of a redevelopment of the Health Sciences Centre. The first phase of tha t was construction that commenced before 1981 and is now completed and serving the people. The other two phases simply never advanced even to functional design or architectural drawing. Mr. Speaker, those are very much issues of dis cussion that we are renewing with the He alth Sciences Centre in 1989.

The seven-year lag of no planning, no orientation and no program proposals at the He alth Sciences Centre I cannot answer for, Mr. Speaker , because I was not a Mini ster responsible. I am answerable today, and we are moving to resolve those problems. Concordia Hospital Capital Funding Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, the Concordia Hospital has already spent $300,000 on architecture planning, and after careful study they are well aware of the need of the communities of Elmwood, Transcona, East and North Kildonan and East St. Paul.

Can the Min ister of Health justify in this House today why he is ignoring 100,000 population in the northeast end of Winnipeg? Is it a political decision or is it an action decision? Hon . Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr . Speaker , I want a little clarification from my honourable friend who is the Liberal Critic. I want to know whether he is agreeing or disagreeing with the statements made by his Liberal Leader. This is very much to the question of Concordia, Mr.

Speaker , because my honourable friend's Leader on Frida y, November 17, said that those patients need personal care home beds, they have to be built, and extended treatment beds need to be built. When the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) goes to Minn edosa she says: "40 percent of people presently residing in personal care homes do not need to be there, thes e people require less than 20 minutes of care per day . . . ".- (interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. 3220

Friday, November 24, 1989 ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Kildonan, on a point of order. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, this Min ister has frequently misled the House. There are 25 perso nal patients right now in Winnipeg who are occupying the few care beds, and Concor dia Hospital has 28 patients who are occupying -(interjection)- Mr. Spea ker : Ord er, please; ord er, please. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. ***** Multicultural Policy Development Untendered Contract Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minis ter of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mi tchelson). The conflict of inter est guidelines for provincial employees state that empl oyees shall not engage in a business transaction for perso nal pr ofit based up on their of ficial op po siti o n, and empl oyees shall not have direct or indirect personal business or financial activities which conflict with their official dut ies and respo nsibili ties.

Can the Min ister of Culture, Heritage and Recreatio n tell the House why she signed a $25,000 untendered contract to develop multicultural policy with a firm ope rated by one of her cultural develo pment officers? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr. Speaker, I will have to take that question as notice and get back to the Memb er. Ms. Hemphill: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the fact tha t the Mini ster has indicated she wants to take that question as notice. Conflict of Interest Ms.

Maureen Hemphill (Log an): When she is doing that, I wonder if she could look very carefully at-I was going to ask her whether she had been to ld, when she signed the contract in November, that one of the two principal people in this firm who received the $25,000 cont ract was a member of her Cul tu ral Affairs De partment, a dev.elopment officer whose terms of refere nce clearly outlined the capability of develo ping the multicultural policy in her department without paying an additional $25,000.00.

Will the Min ister look very carefully at the make-up of that company and look to see, if she was not informed, why she was not informed that there is a clear conflict of interest in that situatio n? *

(1035) Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr. Speaker, those allega tio ns are very serious allega tio ns. They are allegations that I will take under advisement, check into the situation and get back to the House. Ms. Hemphill: I have one further questio n. Could the Min ister find out from her empl oyee if she indicated clearly that she was one of the principal partners of this firm, whether that information was given and whether her department was aware of that when she loo ks at the inf ormatio n? Mrs.

Mitchelson: As I have indicated, it is a very serious concern, and I will get back to the House with the answers to that. Free Trade Agreement Subsidy Negotiations Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): Yesterday, the Trade Min ister tabled a document that supp orts every thing we have said to him over the last week. The preparatory stage of the Canada-U.S. subsidy talks, which started November 15 as we indicated in this House, will indeed involve regular meetings with the Americans.

The parties will inde ed exchange inter ests and ideas and will, as we said yesterda y, add ress the fast approaching U.S. congressional deadline. Will the Min ister today acknowledge that the first Canada-U.S. trade meeting took place on November 15? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): If my honourable friend from Transcona had taken the inter est to find out what they were meeting about, he would have found out it was logistics. The report says, and I quote, actual negotiatio ns would be initiated in 1991.

They are meeting about where they are going to meet, how they are going to meet, how many peo ple are going to be there. That is what they are meeting about; negotia tio ns take place in 1991. Trade Ministe r's Preparation Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): This Mi nister cannot un derstand the di fference between the terms "p reparato ry stage" and "actual negotiatio ns." The distinction is that nothing will be signed yet. Manitoba's interests are on the line now. How can the Trade Mini ster justify his laid back "I will be ready in 10 months" attitude? Hon.

Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I would like to also quote from the document tabled yesterday that says, 1990 will be a year of preparatio n, nego tiations will begin in 199 1. It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Mini ster. Mr. Ernst: Time must be taken to prepare for the negotia tio ns. That is what the Canada Subsidy Trade Negotiation team has done. In 1990 , they will prepare for the 199 1 negotiatio ns, as stated in the document tabled yesterd ay, which was befo re the House of Commons Committee. 3221

Friday, November 24, 1989 Government Support Criteria Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): This Minister obviously does not understand the definit ion of the terms involved here . I must ask him , as a result of that , will this Government announce today that its support for the Canada-U.S . Free Trade Agreement is contingent on a successful defence of Manitoba's economic policies in the subsidies negotiations? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, we support -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Minister . Mr.

Ernst: If I could again quote from the report that was tabled yesterday in the House by myself . It said , Canada intends to preserve its capacity to pursue reg ional development objectives . Canadian social programs and cultural identity are not on the table. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker : Order , please. Order. Housing Market Decline Analysis Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker , I have a question for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness).

Manitoba's economy is showing many signs of st agnation, including excessive business bankruptcies, declining building permits , low levels of new housing construction. Population loss, almost the size of the City of Portage la Prairie, is gone since this Government took office. *

(1040) Now we have fur ther evidence of weakness in the house bui lding industry, namely, out of 20 major urban centres surveyed by Statistics Canada in September, Winnipeg was the only city to experience a decline in new hou sing prices . Canadian prices went up 11.5 percent, Winnipeg prices wen t down. Can the Minister of Finance tell us whether his department is monitoring this segment of the economy, and can he explain why Winn ipeg has the weakest housing industry in Canada? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker , I thank the Member for the question.

Firstly , let me indicate to him, I understand the Sun Centre location site was unveiled in Brandon yesterday . I understand that Brandon, particularly, is doing quite well unde r the economic boom in this province. It is important that Government look at all statistics. I coul d not help today reading an

article in the Free Press where a Mr. Clayton , by the name , one of the analysts in one of our major areas , indicated that British Columbia , Alberta and Manitoba are the only province s which have had higher growth in total retail sales so far over 1988 . Let me also indicate that the value of manufacturing shipments was up 5 percent from September. Again we have amongst the highest level of increase in the country as a whole.- (interjection)- Mr. Speaker : Order , please. The Honourable Member for Brandon East. Mr. Leonard Evans: He is not answering my question, Mr. Speaker.

I would remind the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) that this Government has eliminated almost 60 jobs in the City of Brandon since they took office, and they are threatening another 25 to 35 , so they have a long way to go. Construction Industry Decline Analysis Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a supplementary question. According to the latest Statistics Canada reports, employment in Manitoba's construction industry has declined 5.8 percent in the first 10 months of this year ,

whereas Canada's construction industry has increased by 5.2 percent. How can the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) account for the decline in the construction industry in this province? Does he have any reports explaining this deteriorating situation? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): I am sure the Member is well aware that the Conference Board , in its latest forecast of the economy of the Province of Manitoba, showed that number to be at 5.9 percent, the second highest in the country as a whole .

Let me also indicate that our sales tax revenues at this point in the fiscal year are holding firm to the estimate that we laid before the people in the Province of Manitoba. Let me indicate also that many of our sectors are doing extremely well, and everyth ing is on course in the Province of Manitoba . In a relative sense, this province is doing better than most provinces in the land. B-A Construction Closure Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): The hard economic facts contradict the prognostications and the forecasts of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) .

He can quote all the reports he wants, but the facts are there is a decline in the construction industry. One of Manitoba's largest construction firms, B-A Construction, is closing down its operations because of the low level of profitability in the industry here. Does the Minister of Finance know of other construction firms that might wind down their operations because of the weak Manitoba economy? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I do not know what it is that the Member is asking for. I can indicate , given the capital budget that the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) laid before the people , we have one of the largest , if not the largest, contribution within the capital side of Health 3222

Friday, November 24, 1989 expenditures that has ever been seen in the history of this province. Within the Department of Highways, we have had the largest ever capital construction budget that has ever occurred within the Highways area, I believe $103 million this year. Mr. Speaker , in spite of providing $61 million in reduction of personal income taxes in this province , we still had some monies available to maximize construction within this province. Mr. Speaker : Time for Oral Questions has expired. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St.

Johns): I am wonder ing if I could have leave to make a non-political statement. Mr. Speaker : Does the Honourable Member for St. Johns have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for St. Johns . Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I am confident that all Members in this House will join with me in welcoming home Karen Ridd . An extraordinary Manitoban, a very special person dedicated to the most cherished goal of all, that of peace, and prepared to risk her own life for the freedom of others.

I believe today that we all want to tell Karen we are thankful for your safe return to your home , Manitoba . We are indebted to you for your courage and dedication in working toward peace in war-torn El Salvador . Her work to assist Salvadorans in the face of indiscriminate bombings and widespread violations of human rights is an example of the greatest contribution , the greatest service, to humankind that an individual can make. Some of the work we do here, as legislators in Manitoba, sure pales in comparison to the unselfish, courageous, peace-making efforts of Karen Ridd .

She is a model for us all, she has done Manitoba proud . We thank you Karen Ridd . Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable First Minister have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) The Honourable First Minister. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues in Government, I certainly want to add our words of welcome and thanks to Karen Ridd as she returns home to the love and support of all of the people of this community.

As a friend of the Ridd family, I certainly am very, very happy the efforts that were put in by people in Government and people throughout the community, in calling attention to her plight, resulted in her being released from imprisonment in El Salvador . We certainly recognize that she was making a tremendous contribution to Salvadorans. Certainly her efforts will be lost and missed as a result of her having come home. We hope the continued fight for freedom and democracy in El Salvador will result in the improvements that she was willing to risk her life to achieve.

We certainly congratulate her and welcome her home very warmly . Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for St. James have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for St. James. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure and honour on behalf of our caucus to join with the comments which have previously been made by the First Minister and the Member for St. Johns. It gives me particular pleasure to do that, to give praise and honour to an individual who was a classmate of mine in high school.

I have known Karen for many years, and I have always known her to have those qualities of selfless dedication and courage which she has shown in recent weeks in El Salvador . I, too, and all the Members of our caucus join in giving a hero's welcome in this House , as Karen received at the airport last night , to this Manitoban who has, I think, proven to all of us the great selfless courage which she has, and the great dedication which she has to the people who are terrorized and who are in danger around this world, in particular, of course in her case, in El Salvador.

So on behalf of our Party, we join with the comments which have already been made, and we welcome Karen back . We encourage her in her good works. I am sure she will be back and make us proud many times in the future. Thank you , Mr. Speaker . ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you be so kind as to call the Bills in the following order: 86, 70, 27, 34, 53, 79, 67, 56, 61, 80, 63, 35, 31 and the remainder as listed on today's Order Paper. *

(1050) SECOND READINGS BILL NO. 86-THE STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT (TAXATION) ACT, 1989 Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance) presented Bill No. 86, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1989; Loi de 1989 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives en matiere de fiscalite, for second reading, to be referred to a committee of this House. MOTION presented. Mr. Manness: Firstly, let me apologize to Membe rs of the Legislature for not having brought forward Bill No. 86 somewhat sooner. I was trying to incorporate a possible change around some other tax, which took me the best part of a few weeks, and that of course has delayed the tabling of Bill No. 86 before Members of this House. 3223 I

Friday, November 24, 1989 Bill No. 86, The Statute Law Amendmen t (Taxation) Act, 1989, introduces legislative amendments to Manitoba's taxation statutes giving effect to the proposals outlined in the 1989 Budget Address. The Bill also presents technical amendments required for the proper administration of the taxation statutes.

Part 1 of the Bill amends the gasoline tax, providing authority for the increase in gasoline tax of one cent per litre, which was implemented September 5. As announced in the budget, the approximate $8 million in additional reve nue generated by this measure , including the change in motive fuel tax described later, has been committed to inc reased resources for highway construction to a record level. Let me indicate, particularly to the critic of Highways and Transportation from the official Opposition , that if he were to compare the construction and upgrading of the Provincial Trunk Highways

section , as laid out in the Estimates under Resolution Vote No. 79, he would see an increase under No. 8 of approximately $8 million, this year versus last year. That $8 million is directly as a result of the increase in gasoline tax of 1 cent a litre . Let me also indicate to Members opposite that we have chosen to do this as a Government policy rather than setting up a dedicated trust fund because the Provincial Audito r, we sense, would frown upon a system of setting up a dedicated fund which should be the recipient of additional gasoline tax funding .

We have pledged to the people of Manitoba that by way of increa sed revenues as a result of the gas tax , that those monies will go directly into increased funding and support of the building of highways . That is amply documented on page 93 of the Estimates this year, where indeed there is an $8 million incr ease covering all the sections within the capital as related to highways construction . The preference for gasohol, a less polluting form of fuel, is increas ed by 1 cent from 2.5 cents to 3.5 cents per litre, effective September 5.

This measure will encourage production in Manitoba of the ethanol used in manufacturing gasohol, and t he use of env ironment ally cleaner fuel s by Manitoba motorists . Aviation gasoline tax paid · for fuel used in aerial spraying of crops in Manitoba will be eligible for refund effec tive for all of 1989 in subsequent years. Other farm fuels are and continue to be tax exemp t. Mr. Speaker,

Part 2 of the Bill amends The Health and Post-Secondary Education Tax Levy Act. The payroll tax exemption is doubled from $300,000 to $600,000 of annual remuneration. Reductions to payroll taxes are provided for employers with payrolls between $600,000 and $1.2 million . This change will take effect January 1, 1990, and will reduce the number of Manitoba employers paying this tax from about 3,600 to 2,500 . In the last two years we have raised the payroll tax exemption from $100,000 to $600 ,000 of annual salaries , a clear benefit to small- and medium-sized businesses in Manitoba .

In just two years we have cut the number of employers paying the payroll tax by two thirds. (Mr. William Chornopyski, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair)

Part 3 of this Bill , the longest and perhaps the most important, amend s The Income Tax Act. This Bill provides a lower personal incom e tax rate for Manitobans reducing the provincial tax from 54 percent to 52 perce nt of basic federal tax. This reduction will save Manitoba 's taxpayers about $33 million for 1989 alone. This Bill also increases support for families . The Manitoba tax reduction for dependants under age 19 and for disabled dependants over 19 has increased to $250 per dependant up from $50 and $150, respectively . Manitoba families will save over $28 million for 1989 as a result of this measure.

Mr. Deputy Speaker , as Members know , the benefits of these changes could not be incorporated into source deductions in July notwithstanding the claims by the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) following her seance with her Newfoundland Leader . Can we remember those days in June when I was attacked, personally attacked for not being able to provide payroll deductions at the beginning of July? The Member opposite , his only rebu ttal is that he calls, he hurls at me the name, the Min ister of " Walkouts.

" What possible connection would that have to the fact that his Leader blundered so badly in the month of June when she leaned upon a brand new Premier, who would probably have no understanding with respect to taxation matters , and quoted a brand new Premier in this country to use as her defence to try and gain some political points. It speaks volumes about how desperate the Leader of the Liberal Party was with respect to this good news of tax reduction. However, the full benefits of the reductions will be available to Manitobans when they file their 1989 tax returns next spring .

For 1990, I am pleased to add these important reductions will be reflected in source deductions starting in January . As I indicated at the press conference two days ago, that will mean, for example , for a family of four earning $25,000 or less, a provincial reduction in income tax of $485 .00 . That should begin to be reflected immediately on source deductions beginning with January payrolls . The amendments to The Income Tax Act also include two new measures affecting the net income tax.

Refunds will be provided for any net income tax or net income tax surtax paid on unemployment insurance benefits repaid to the federal Government . Similarly, refunds of net income tax or net income surtax paid will also be provided in the case of farm foreclosures, repossessions or quitclaims. These measures will be retroactive to the implementation of the flat tax in 1987 . Mr. Deputy Speaker, what we had happening here because of the imposition of the 2 percent tax on net income, we had situations where farmers were forced off their land and yet had a sizable capital gain.

Whereas they were rebated that on the federal side we still had the full impact of the 2 percent tax on net income brought in by the former Government attacking that increase in the value of property even though the taxpayer had no opportunity to even have the cash in their hand to meet that tax liability . 3224

Friday, November 24, 1989 In fairness to the former Government, it was not their choice in the location of the tax form as to where they applied that 2 percent tax . That was a decision made by the federal Government in the joint tax collection agreement as we have between provinces and Ottawa . Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would encourage taxpayers in situations that I have just referred to, to apply to the Manitoba tax assistance office for refunds. The majority of the amendments to The Income Tax Act contained in this Bill are made at the request of the federal Government .

Under the terms of the Canada-Manitoba tax collection agreement the province is required to keep its income tax legislation in step with the federal Act . The balance of the changes in

Part 3 make the provincial Act consistent with federal legislation. Many of the provis ions in Manitoba's Act parallelling federal provisions will be repealed and replaced by direct references to the federal Act. This approach will reduce the need for future provincial amendments when federal legislation is modified . *

(1100) Part 4 of the Bill amends The Mining Tax Act. As announced in the Budget Address, a temporary special tax equal to 1.5 percent of mining profits realized between January 1 and December 31, 1989, will be applied. The special tax is an interim measure, and I stress, Mr. Deputy Speaker, interim measure, designed to protect Manitoba's revenue until income tax allocation problems are resolved .

Part 5 of the Bill amends The Motive Fuel Tax Act . As announced in the budget, motive fuel for off-highway use will be taxed at the same rate as fuel used on highway. The Bill also includes a number of technical amendments to the enforcement provisions of the Act.

Part 6 of the Bill provides the exemption from retail sales tax for on-reserve telecommunication services announced in the Budget Address. It also lowers the sales tax on imported beer from 12 percent to 7 percent, the rate charged on domestic beer in accordance with a 1988 GATT ruling.

Part 7 of the Bill amends the land transfer tax , provisions of the revenue Act and also adds a new part to The Revenue Act-Part 4, the environmental protection tax. The amendments to the land transfer tax modify the way in which land transfer tax is calculated, consistent with my Februa ry 15, 1989, announcement in respect of undivided interests in property . Members will recall prior to that announcement, land transfer tax was avoided or reduced on some sales of property by making use of multiple transfers of undivided interests, each eligible for the $30,000 exemption from the tax.

Under the amendment, tax payable on transfers of undivided interests will be calculated on a proportional basis. For example, transfer of a one-tenth interest would pay tax equal to one-tenth of the amount payable if the entire property were transferable. The amendment changes the definition of fair market value used in calculating the tax to reflect the value of the entire property, including buildings, in respect of which the transfer is registered rather than just the value of the interest transferred. On proclamation, this change in definition will apply to all transfers.

It will prevent further eros ions of the land transfer tax base. In the case of undivided interest, the change in definition applies retroactively to February 16. The Revenue Act is also amended by the addition of

Part 4, the environmental protection tax which I announced in the Budget Address. Since August 1, this tax has been collected on alcoholic beverage containers for which a deposit return system is not currently available. From that same date , these containers have been accepted for recycling at a number of depots in Manitoba . The public response has been very positive . Further depots will be open ed in the near future . Our Government is pleased with the init ial success of this measure and the associated opportunity to recycle these containers the environmental protection tax is helping to finance .

Part 8 of the Bill amends The Tobacco Tax Act to enact the changes announced in the Budget Address. The tax on cigarettes is raised by one cent each, to 6.5 cents and to an equivalent amount of preportioned tobacco sticks. The tax on fine cut tobacco is raised from 1.9 to 4.3 cents per gram. The Bill also includes other technical changes designed to protec t the tobacco tax base, for instance , by banning marked products, which are taxed in other provinces , from sale in Manitoba . Mr.

Deputy Speaker, what I have detai led here over the last few minutes are basically the tax Acts as introduced within the June budget. I will make detailed technical notes outlining each of the provisions in this Bill available to the Opposition Critics prior to the committee stage of the debate . I am hoping that Members of this House will see fit to address this particular Bill over the next two weeks .

I am requesting some indulgence from the Opposition Parties and ask that they might consider-if they are going to support this Bill, if they might give it support within the next two or three weeks so that we can implement and make law many of those changes that have already been introduced into the Manitoba marketplace. Mr. Deputy Speaker, thank you very much. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): I think I will start by answering the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) that we are speaking on the Bill today . I am going to make a few comments on it right now and I will be the only speaker for our side .

So we are prepared to see this Bill pass to committee immediately. However, I would ask the Government House Leader (Mr. Mccrae), given that the technical details are not available yet , that we hold the committee meeting off until such time as we have had time to review those notes that are coming from the Minister. I do however want to comment on the remarks that the Minister of Finance had made in introducing this Bill to the media in which he commented on his concerns 3225

Friday, November 24, 1989 because we were delaying the process of things through this House. I find that remark offensive. I would ask the Min ister of Finance at some time to have the courtesy to stand up and tell us how he walks into this House on the 24th of November and reads a Bill for the first time and says that we are delaying the progress of this House. We are following an Estima tes

schedule set up by the Rules of this House and we have 101 hours left, following the schedule, and he says we are delaying the House. We have had some Ma tters of Urgent Public Importance. Are those the things he is talking about? Is he saying it was unimportant to debate the Native education question, a debate which they sup ported? Is he saying it was unimportant to debate the GST, a debate that his Party was afraid to stand up and vote against? Lynn Lake-was it inappropr iate for this House to debate Lynn Lake for a day? If that is the case, why did they stand and support that debate?

We have even been prepared to let Estim ates go past the time when there was a legitimate reason and we were prepared to hear something from the Minis ters. The only time the Opposition gets in this House is four hours a week, four hours, and the Min ister expects us to give th at up while they retain the agenda. We have four hours to put forward our agenda. I find it offe nsive that this Mi nister would waste as much time this year in bringing this Bill forward, and then would stand up and challenge us about the waste of time. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we support this Bill.

We have suppor ted this Bill and these tax changes since before the Minis ter brought forward his budget, and we certainly supported it the very first time we spoke on this budget. Let us talk a little bit about what is the effect of this? The Min ister has made much about the $61 million that Manitobans are going to receive and he commented in his-a ctually it was in his response to a question today in Question Period, he talked about the economic boom in this province. The economic boom is more of an economic dull thud. We have 7,000 fewer people working in this province right now.

This province is heading in the direction that I think causes concern to all of us, including the Min ister .of Finance (Mr. Manness). According to the Finance Minis ter's own Estima tes of Revenue, Estima tes of Revenue which he tabled in the House and which today in Question Period he said are holding firm, we are going to be collecting $55 million more in consumption taxes this year than we were last year. Now he is talking about giving back $61 million to Manitobans but in fact in his Estima tes of Revenue he shows a net drop in income on individual income tax of $2.3 million. Now why is that?

We ll, it is because incomes have gone up somewhat and because of the changes in indexing on income tax policy, the bracket creep has allowed them to pretend to give back more money and still colle ct all but $2.3 million of it. They cannot have it both ways. This is a Minis ter who speaks in favour of consumption taxes, who talks about the benefits of consumption taxes, who off the record, the Member for Winnipeg South, the federal Minis ter, Miss Dobbie, says that this Mi nister supports the federal Gove rnment's move on consumption taxes.

He is prepared to take more money away from people but stand up here and talk about how he is giving money back. On the corporate side, they are going to return $63 million on their own revenue Estimates to corporations versus the $2.3 million they are going to give to individuals. I am increasingly tired of sitting here and watching the incompetence of this Government as it attempts to bring forward an agenda. We have yet to see any sense of a plan or a strategy or an approach to the management of this province. The Minis ter of Justice (Mr.

McCrae) chooses to comment from his seat-let us talk about what the Mi nister of Ju stice did. Let us talk about the management on that side of the House, right now, as they walk a Bill for impair ed driving into this House, with great fanfare and talk about all the things that they need to do. He comes to us and he says this is consistent with the principles that you have been arguing for, for years, and will you support this Bill, and we say, yes we will, when we see the Bill. Our critic for Justice says there are serious flaws in this Bill and proposes amendments.

They ridicule him, they say not the case and they bring in, when it comes time to bring it to committee, some 15 amendments to that Bill. The Mini ster says, well, he does not know how to write a Bill and he wants us to put an idea on the table, get some concepts and we will work it out. That is how they manage, they are going to work it out. * (1 1 10) They passed the Bill, we co-operate with them and we passed that Bill and then what do they do, they have to come back with 18 more amendments to get the darn thing to work.- (interjection)- They cannot- 33 amendments later we have a Bill.

Thir ty-three amendments later, the majority of them put forward by the Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards). They expect us to have faith in their management. They expect us to co-operate with them. They stand there and they talk about us delaying things in this House. The only reason there is any delays in this House, is they are so completely incompetent that they cannot get th ings onto the agen da for themselves. (interjection)- I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker , the Min ister for Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme), one of the more incompetent Memb ers of the House wishes to chair from his feet.

He contri butes nothing in the se sky-gazing and occasional little remarks across the House, often of a personal nature. We will deal with him eventually. (interjection)- We are going to support this Bill and we are going to do everyt hing we can to facilitate its quick passage. I do not want to confuse the supp ort for this Bill with support for the budget. We are not going to vote for 3226

Friday, November 24, 1989 The Fiscal Stabili zation Act. We do not support that and we are not going to vote for this budget. This Bill, this $61 million in mythical reductions in the pockets of Manitobans accounts for 1 percent of the total program put forward in that budget. We are not going to support this budget and I will not support this budget until I see some action on the Municipal hospitals, until I see some action on home care, until I see some action to address the very serious problems that people are feeling right now.- (interjection)- (Mr.

Speaker in the Chair) Oh, oh, did I hear a comment from the NOP? Did I, did I hear some sort of chirp from his seat, this Leader who chooses to sit here every day and support that Government, who stands up and complains about their actions and votes with them every time he has an opportunity? There was a time when I had some significant respect for the actions of this Party. There was a time when I thought they had some principles, there was a time when I thought they brought in some very good programs to this province, programs which I supported.

I guess the only question I have for the Leader of the NOP is, how many times do you have to swallow your pride before it begins to taste good? How many times can you sit there and and watch those programs being dismantled and vote for it? I do not think the Leader of the NOP has anything to say right now. I think I would like to close this debate by saying that the Liberal Party will support the passage of this Bill. I have the notes right now from the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness). I would like to thank him for it.

I would like a few days to review this and will be prepared to move to committee early next week. Thank you very much. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Oppositi on): I do not know how the Finance Critic of the Liberal Party can-and I knew there was a rift in their caucus about the last budget-but I do not know how the Finance Critic of the Liberal Party can vote against the budget and then vote for the tax measures. If you defeat the budget, you do not have the tax measures. Mr.

Speaker, I understand why the Liberals want early elections because they are dropping like Niagara Falls, but- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Doer: -if I could speak to this Bill, please, without all the chirping. ***** Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The Honourable Member for Osborne, on a point of order. Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I want to correct something on the record here. The Leader for the third Party (Mr. Doer) continually puts disinf ormation on the record, and I think the only group in this House that is dropping is that Party. Mr.

Speaker: Order , please. The Honourable Member did not have a point of order. It was a dispute over the facts. Ord er, please. There is no point of order. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mini ster of Housing, on a new point of order. Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker , the individual speaker earlier put many, many misguided things on the record. Mr. Speaker: Order , order. The Honourable Mi nister did not have a point of order. The Honourable Member for Concordia has the floor. ***** Mr. Doer: The taxation Bill is a very simple Bill. It is pursuant to a budget that was presented in this House.

It is not a big deal, Mr. Speaker, unlike what the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness) has tried to project it as in his Speech from the Throne. I am surpris ed the Liberals went for the bait and they are trying to make it a big deal in this House, because it is not. It is pursuant to the budget and we will review it to ensure it is consistent with the budget statements, and to ensure that the legislation contained therein is consistent with the budget. We believe that we voted for the budget because it was consistent with the election promises we had made in Manitoba in '88.

Therefore it is very consistent with our belief that the windfall of money in this province from both the federal and mining taxes should, to some degree, be passed on to the taxpayers of Manitoba. We are not going to try to play both ways, Mr. Speaker. We are going to say one thing about the budget and one thing about the taxation measures that come out of the budget. I mean, this sort of gerrymandering cherry picking of votes is intellectually dishonest as well as factually incorrect. You either vote for the budget or you do not. No, it is very simple. I do not know whether the -(interjection)- Mr.

Speaker: Order . Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker , we have raised our credibility on health care in the programs we have identified. It is well-kno wn to Manitobans. We happen to belie ve it takes some time to show the differences between the public relations of this Government and the actual reality of this Government. Whether the Liberals understand this or not, there is a discrepancy between what these people announce, which sounds great, and what actually is happening, which actually will not be so hot.

There is a discrepancy between what the Government appears to be announcing in the health care capital budgets, and that is why, unlike the Liberals who went on free trade subsidy negotiations all week, we went on health care. We went on health care all week. The 3227

Friday, November 24, 1989 lead question from the Leader of the Party went on health care because it is a priority of ours. It is obviously not a priority of the Liberal Party. They are obviously not a priority of the Liberal Party, Mr. Speaker, and I think they are a little burned today because they heard a radio comment that said that nobody knows what the Li berals stand for. I understand why they are a little hot under the collar tod ay. You can see the record. We have consistently raised the issues of health care, economy and the environment.

Unfortunately , we left this Government in such great shape that it will take us some time before people realize that we are back to the Sterling Lyon economic days. It will take the people -(interjection)- We ll, I do not even want to deal with these people, they are so out of it. I mean, they are so out of it, it is like dealing with kids. I agree with the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) when she said it was like dealing with an adult child care centre. It really is dumb to deal with them. ***** Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Kildonan. Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr.

Speaker, with all due respect to the Member- Mr. Speaker: On a point of order? Mr. Cheema: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Mr. Speaker: What is the Member's point? Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), he has put on the record that we have not raised the Health issues. I am just trying to correct the information here. It is wrong. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. That is not a vehicle to use. Mr. Cheema: Mr . Sp eaker, we have raised consistently- * (112 0) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. ***** Mr.

Doer: I have a lot of respect for the Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema) and I thought that he should have been the lead questioner yesterday. I thought that the health care was much more of an issue yesterd ay, and it continues to be an issue as we raised again today. I noticed on Tuesday morning that the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) did not ask one question on health care when the Mi nister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) had released the Capital Program, not one question. 3228 They do not care about health care, because the Leader should exemplify where the priorities of the Party are, or they are scared of the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Orchard), or both. I respect the Member for Kildonan raising these health care issues, but all of us have to exemplify where our Party is at by our lead questions. The facts speak for themselves. Look at the record on Tuesday morning, look at the facts on Tuesday morning. Mr. Cheema: What is the role of critics then if the Leader has to raise each and every issue? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, it is a combination. We went with both people. The Liberal Party did not go, they went with a very capable critic who I respect. I have a lot of respect for the Memb er for Kildonan. I think he does a great job. I do not always like him applauding the Min ister of Health (Mr . Orchard) so much in Estimates, but we will try to ignore those nice things he says about the Minis ter of Health because in the House in Question Period he is pretty tough on the Mi nister of Health. We are more akin to his position in this Chamber than the Estima tes process with the Member for Kildonan.

The bottom line is you get a budget, and you have to make a fundamental decision of whether you defeat the budget and go to the people or whether you make another decision not to defeat the Government. In the budget there is taxation legislation and there are Bills pursuant to a budget. The Fiscal Stabiliz ation Fund is part of the budget. The budget also has taxation measures in it. I do not understand, this is a new degree of dishonesty, in my opinion, to try to play it all ways against the middle.

Over the short run you can be intellectually dishonest, because in a world of 10 -second clips you can say one thing one day and you can say another thing another day. You can to that for a while and that is unfortunate, because over a period of time it catches up with you. Over a period of time we believe that the economic performance of the Conservatives and the health care performance of the Conservatives will be quite different, at the level of which people receive ·the services and see their Government, than what they see on the front pages of the Free Press on a daily basis, and that is our job to prove.

It is our job to take the public relations and these red ribbons that are being cut five times in a row-I mean, the Min ister of Health has cut one red ribbon five times now. It is our job to show this is just smoke and mi rrors, and sometime s-I say this to my honourable Liberal friends-that takes some time.

You know there is an old song, an old country and western song, "You've got to know when to hold them; you've got to know when to show them." You also do not count your money until the day is done. (Deputy Speaker in the Chair) We in the New Democratic Party would like to have all Manitobans know what we know, and ther efore we would love to have the Manitobans know what we know and go to the polls right away, but sometimes it take

Friday, November 24, 1989 a little time to erode the public relations campaign of a Party that basically owns the media.- (interjection)- We ll, read the book "1 00 Mo nkeys." It is a very good book to read; it showed how the Prime Min ister of the country last year had the media totally on their side for about six months leading into the last federal election, and look what hap pened to Canadians after the 100- An Honourable Member: Three weeks before the vote they were down in the polls. Mr. Doer: One poll, that is problem with going with these little polls.

They had the media going with them for about six months and what happened? We have GST, we have no VIA Rail, we have no Medicare, we have no education, it is all being eroded, that is what we voted for a year ago.

The New Democrats belie ve that, yes, we should go to the people because we do not believe a Sterling Lyon-Filmon-like Government is good for the economy and good for the health care, but we are going to choose a time that is consistent with the people seeing really what the Tories in this province are what they are, and that is a ruthless right-wing Government that is only tempered by a minority Government in this Cham ber.

We are going to stay on our priorities of getting our economy going, really developing our health care system which is not happening in this province, and a real environmental pol icy, not this fli mflam environmental policy of sustainable rhetoric. We will not say one thing on June 11 and say another thing on November 25. We said we would support the budget, and therefore we will look at the individual specific measures of the taxes.- (interjection)- We ll, if the Mem ber for Osborne (Mr.

Alcock) would read my first statements when I declared for Leadership he would find they are very consistent with what I have done now. I will watch what resolution the Liberals pass at their federal convention on June 23 , because I know which resolution we will be passing next week at our convention. Unlike the Liberals and Tories, we debate issues at our convention floor . We are not an adult child care centre tha t gets led around by a little string. We will vote on the taxation measure unle ss there is something in here that we did not expect that we have to review.

We will vote the same way on this measure in December as we said we would vote in June. We will not flip-flop around, and we will be very consistent with the people of Manitoba. That is our pledge in this Legislature and that is our pledge outside of here, no public relations gim micks on our Party's part. We will do it, we will vote the way we said we will vote, we will not change back and forth, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Thank you very much. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr . Deputy Speaker , I would move, seconded by the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried .

BILL NO. 70-T HE PROVI NCIAL COURT AMEND MENT ACT Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and At torney General) presented Bill No. 70, The Provincial Court Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Gour provinciale), for second reading, to be referred to a committee of this House. MOTION presented . Mr. Mccrae: I am pleased to present to the Legisla ture for its consideration The Provincial Court Amendment Act. These amendments arise from a review of The Provincial Court Act that was undertaken by the Law Reform Commission at the request of the Government as part of the Government's responses to the ticketgate affair. With the passage of this Bill and The

Summary Convictions Act the Government will have taken significant steps in response to that unfortunate affair. We will also have taken extremely significant steps in terms of provincial court reform in the Province of Manitoba, a reform I am pleased to be part of, and I bel ieve the reform will serve the people of Manitoba well for a long time into the future. The Law Reform Commis sion presented a very detailed report with 94 specific recommendations. The report was extremely well researched and well done, and I thank the Law Reform Commission for the good work they did.

This legislation does not implement all the recommendations of the commission. In fact, I am extremely pleased to be able to present this legislation at this Session. We only received the report of the Law Reform Commission some very few short months ago and a lot of work has been done since the receipt of that report to bring us to the point we are tod ay. The fact that a recommendation of the Law Reform Commission is not included in this Bill does not mean tha t the Go vernment ha s rejected th ose recommendations. They are still being studied and may be the subject of legislation in the future.

This Bill implements recommendations of the commission with respect to th ree vital matters. * (11 30) First, the legislation will provide for a committee to evaluate potential appoi ntees to the provincial court Bench and to make recommendations to the Government. That committee will be chaired by the chief judge and include a judge desig nated by the judges of the provincial court, a person desig nated by the president of the Law Society of Ma nitoba, and a person designated by the president of the Manitoba Bar Association.

As well, there will be th ree persons who specifically cannot be lawyers, judges, or retired judges appointed by the Government. As Mem bers can see, the Government does not have a majority on this committee, so there can be no question of the Government stacking the committee to get persons it wants appointed approved without thorough inquir y and scrutiny. 3229

Friday, November 24, 1989 The duties of the nominating committee are set out in the legislation. Briefly the committee shall advertise for appl ications and nominations, and then shall provide the Min ister of Justice with not less than thr ee and not more than six candidates for each available position. The Government believes, and we expect all Members of the Assembly will agree, that because judges are invested by our system of rule of law with enormous power over the lives of our citizens, it is essential that the citizens have confidence in the persons appointed as judges.

The confidence of the citizenry can only be enhanced by having a committee review the candidates. This review should ensure that all appoin tees to the provincial Bench are well regarded, not only by the legal profession but also by the community at large. The legislation provides for a parallel process for the appointment of the chief judge with the obvious change that the chief judge to be appointed cannot serve on that committee. The Minis ter of Jus tice appoints a person to act as the Chair of the nominating committee in that situation.

The second major change in the legislation is the provision for a judicial compensation committee to be established every two years to review and make recommendations regarding the salaries and benefits of judges, including their pensions, vacation, sick leave, travel expenses and allo wances. The public perception of the indep endence of the provincial judiciary can be undermined by the fact that the judges must negotiate with the provincial Government directly for changes in salaries and benefits. This procedure in the past has been referred to as coming to the Government with cap in hand.

I believe Governments in Canada have been scrupulous in dealing with the issue of compensation totally separate and apart from other qu estions connected with the performance of judges of their duties but it remains a fact that the provincial Government that sets the judge's salary is also the Government that prosecutes accused persons before those judges and that can leave a perception of conflict of interest. The compensation committee will include a person designated by the judges of the court and two others, one of whom shall not be a civil servant appointed by the Government.

An interest ing feature of the legislation that is prop osed to this Assembly is tha t the Government must, within 30 days of the opening of the next Session, after the presentation of a report, table it and refer it to a standing committee within a further 30 days. The Law Reform Commission in its recommendation on this matter suggested that the recommendation should automa tically become appli cable un less legislation to override the recommendations was passed by the House.

There are practical dif ficulties in having the recommendation automatically come into force at a specific time because the Assembly often does not sit for months on end- An Honourable Member: Not lately . Mr. Mccrae: That was something that happened quite often with the previous administration but it has not been happening lately, as pointed out by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr). More recently the House sits for months on end. The House, therefore, might not be in a position to deal with the report within the specified time with the House not sitting for periods of time.

The provision in the Act will require the Government to take action in the House and ensures that the Legislature will remain as it should, ultim ately responsible for the setting of the salaries. This Bill provides for the chief judge to have a general supervisory power in respect of the courts, and for the chief judge to conduct an initial investigation respecting the fitness of a judge and either take corrective action or refer the matter to the judicial council. A strange weakness of the current Act is that it provides no protection for the chief judge, who can be removed virtually at the whim of the Cabinet.

I think this is clearly in appr opr iate and undermin es the independence of the chief judge. That independence is, of course, essential since the chief judge conducts the initial investigations into the behaviour of other judges. Accordingly, the legislation now provides that the chief judge shall hold office during good behaviour, and the Cabinet can only remove a chief judge if there is a recommendation to that effect from the Judicial Council. In

summary, the amendments proposed by this Bill, to The Provincial Court Act should enha nce the indep endence of provincial judges by taking their nomination out of political hands, by providing for an independent review of their compensation and by enhancing the role of the chief judge while protecting the chief judge from arbitrarily being removed from office. I would like to take this opportunity in presenting this Bill to the House to pay tribute to certain judges of the Provincial Court, with whom I have had extensive discussions regarding the ultima te make-up of the Bill before the House today.

I should single out for mention Chi ef Judge Stefanson; Judge Howard Collerman and Judge Win Norton with whom, as I have said, I have had extremely open and frank discussions. I think that kind of discussion is th"e type that leads to the kind of legislation that we have, legislation where there is general agreement, I believe as to the direction that we are going in. I think it cannot be denied that there have been one or two sticky patches, if I could use that expression, in matters rela ting to the provincial judiciary over the last 18 -19 months.

I think I can say without fear of contradiction that rela tions between the jud iciary and the Government of Ma nitoba have impr oved significantly since the election of the new Government in 1988. I again pay tribu te to those judges with whom I have been discussing matters related to their arrangements and ask that the Honourable Members have a look at this Bill, and I would commend it to the House. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): I move, seconded by the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr), that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. 3230

Friday, November 24, 1989 DE BATE ON SECOND RE AD INGS BILL NO. 27-T HE FISCAL STABILIZ ATION FUND ACT Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Mini ster of Finance, Bill No. 27, The Fiscal Stabiliz ation Fund Act, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for The Pas, who has 39 minutes remai ning, the Honourable Member for The Pas. Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): I am pleased to stand and continue my comments on Bill No. 27, which deals with The Fiscal Stabili zation Fund Act. There have been many speakers.

There are only two speakers left from our side of the House left to speak on this very important Bill. I know there has been a lot of viewpoints expressed on how we should be addressing this, and I know the Liberals are in a bit of a dilemma. You see them tod ay, their Acting Min ister of Finance, stand up and say they are going to be supporting Bill No. 86 when they voted against the budget, so they continue to be in a dilemma. I have heard in recent days that the y may be supporting Bill No. 27 after they have had some feedback from the general public.

I guess they are testing the winds again and they feel that they may be supporting this now. I know that it is a Bill that has been debated by both sides of this Legislature, and they have put on record some of their reasons why they are voting against it and why they are voting for it. I know that in most cases the Liberal Members have said they are going to be voting against it, and they have chastised us as an Opposition Party for supporting the Government during the last vote on the budget.

They felt that they wanted to go to the people at that time, and I think that they would probably have been disappointed at the results of that if there had been an election held at that time, or maybe at that time they would have been in a position where they would have had some favourable support as far as they were concerned, but I think the people of Manitoba .would probably have been disappointed.

When they speak against the Bill, and yet they come out with so many areas of where they are going to be spending that money, I do not understand how they can speak against the Bill and yet have the funding to spend. There are many programs that they have brought forward, many suggestions of how they would be- * (1 140) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for The Pas has the floor. Mr. Harapiak: The Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery) is once again having difficulty containing his enthusiasm for speaking from his chair, and I hope that he would- Hon.

Edward Connery (Ministe r of Co-opera tive, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): You excite me with your rhetoric. Mr. Harapiak: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Member for Portage la Prairie has said I excite him with my rhetoric, and I have not put any rhetoric on the record yet, so I am wondering, he is very easily excited. He has proven that in the past, because when he was the Mi nister responsible for the Environment quite often he would not only excite hi mself, but he would excite some of the Members of the Cabinet, I am sure, with his answers when he would make comments off the cuff. I am sure the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) on many occasions got excited as well, and I can understand why he would get excited. Mr. Deputy Speak er, if this Fiscal Stabilization Fund is not passed, there would be $200 million that would be lost for programs that are badly needed for the people of Manitoba. I know there are differences of opinion on how people would be spending that. The Min ister of Finance (Mr. Man ness), I know that his priority is to reduce the deficit, and I can understand why he would feel that way.

As a Member of Tr easury Board in the last Government I know that you get the information which shows you that you are headed in a direction which is not a very good direction to be going in, because it reduces your ability to deliver programs when you are spending a good percentage of money on interest rates to carry that deficit. I can understand why- An Honourable Member: Why did you not say that when you were in Government, Harry? Mr. Harapiak: Mr. Deputy Speak er, the Mi nister for Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst) gets up and says why did we not say that when we were Government.

I was a Member of Treasury Board, and we were working toward that goal. We were reducing the debt, and some of the decisions we made at that time made it possible for you to have this $200 million deficit (sic), so you read where that revenue comes from and then give credit where credit is due. It is unfortunate that you would not take that opportunity and then give us some of the credit for putting you in a position where you could have a reduction of that sort, plus have a $200 million Fiscal Stabili zation Fund.

I know it is very difficult dealing with some of the programs that you have to when you are working toward a deficit reduction and at the same time working with some of the social programs that we believe in very strongly . We still continued to del iver on those social programs which at that time had an effect on Manitoba, and they still continue to have an effect, because of the fact that we have a mi nority Conser vative Government who do not dare go on their right-wing agenda, as they would if they had a majority like they have in the federal House.

There is the real Conservative Government operating at the federal level where they are slashing as if they do not care about the financial means of the people who are being affected, for the goods and services tax is a good example, it is a good example of where the real Cons ervative agenda would be. If th ese Conservatives in Manitoba had the type of majority that they have in the federal House, we would be getting this same right-wing programs that they are getting at the federal level. 3231

Friday, November 24, 1989 You have a look at the cutting of VIA Rail. Sur ely a country that was founded the way we were, where the rail line s bound the country together , is worth preserving. It still provides a very good service in which, during the last period of time, it was not possible for you to get reservations on VIA Rail because of the fact that tho se tr ains were fu ll. The Cons ervative Government had a task force which was made up of a majority of Conservative Members who went out and had a task force.

The recommendation their own committee made to them was not cut it at this time; wait and get more information to see how some of those changes are going to affect VIA Rail's operations, and -(interjection)- We ll, the Mini ster of Transportation (Mr . Al bert Driedger) of Mani toba says he convinced them. Unfortuna tely, he would not talk to Bouchard who is the Mi nister who is responsible for transporation, and maybe he would have convinced him.

If he was that forceful in his discussions with the task force, then maybe he could have been forceful with Bouchard and allo wed him to carry on with that VIA Rail, because it does provide a good service. I think that quite often the Min ister is patted on the back for having received a one-year extension for VIA Rail to Churchill in the North here, which serves as the only transp ortation link that there is for some of those people along the bayline but, no, one year. They have to prove that they can operate or else it too is going to be lost.

I think it is unexplainable how a Government can be' so heartless in their approach to the needs of Canadians, and I think that this goes right along with free trade. They want to develop their free trade in a north south direction rather than east-west which has had the effect of binding this country togeth er.

Instead, with the Free Trade Agreement it is going to tear it apart, because in tha t same area, the transporta tion, it is now going to be necessary for people to travel via bus to the United States and get on Amtrak, travel west, and then take a bus back to a Canadian point where they can again make a Canadian connection. I think it is deplorable that we would be taking that type of a direction in dealing with that issue. Another area that the Conservatives at the federal level are cutting off is dealing with the tax benefits that Northerners enjoyed over the last several years.

It is understood by anyone who has had any experience in northern Manitoba that it costs you more to live in northern Manitoba than it does in the other parts of the count ry, and the $5 ,400 tax allo wance was something that helped bring people into northern Manitoba. Even with that assistance that we had, we still had a terrible time of attrac ting professional and tradespeople to northern Manitoba, who are going to be required if we are going to be attracting people into that part of the country.

But, no, the task force report has been tabled which said they should lose those benefits, and people from Thompson and Wabowden who had previously lost those benefits are not going to have them reinstated. Points like The Pas, Flin Flon, Swan River, Winnip egosis, Camperville and many of 3232 those points which would have a much higher cost of living than they do in southern Manitoba are going to be lost. After receiving many petitions from Northerners, yesterday they decided that they would come down and have a meeting in northern Manitoba.

They were going to go to speak to the people of Thompson last night, and they did not allow presentations to be made. All they did was come forward and tell people how they were going to be affected by that Northern Tax Allo wance cut. If that is consultation, it is a shame. (interjection)- That is true, it is a shame that the federal Government would deal in such a heavy-handed way with the people of northern Manitoba. I am glad to see that the Min ister of Northern Affai rs (Mr. Downey) is standing up for the people of northern Mani toba and supporting us in the Northern Tax Al lowance.

There are meetings today in Flin Flan and The Pas, and again there is not any opportunity for people to make presentations to the task force; all they are going to do is go down and show the people how they are affected by the cuts, and they are going to have to live with them. It is a heavy-handed Government at the federal level, and I am sure that if they had a majority here in Man itoba we would be getting the same type of treatment in northern Manitoba that we got under the Sterling Lyon administration where they cut all the services off for northern Manitoba.

We were dealt with in a very heavy-handed way, and once again we would be treated in that way. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was speaking earlier on some of the dilemma that the Liberals are faced with, and I guess they have continued to come forward with programs that they would support where they would spend this $200 million. I know that there has been some discussion on their phi losophy of having a means test for some of the social programs tha t are brought forward. The Li beral Leader (Mrs. Carstairs) used that during some of her speeches in the last election.

She felt that maybe the means test was something to look for. I think that would be unfortunate if we went to a means test. I guess the Mem ber for Seven Oaks (Mr. Mi nenko) and the critic for He alth held a press conference in northern seats of the city here. They once again espoused their philo sophy on how health programs should be delivered, and again they were saying that there is room for a means test. * (115 0) I think the people from Manitoba should know that would be the Liberals' phi losophy if they ever took Government. If the current Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs.

Carstairs) was the Leader of a newly formed Gove rnment, I think you would see a complete swing to the right at some of the approaches to their programs. When you lis ten to her phi losophy she is more right wing than the Leader of the present Government in many of her approaches, especially in the whole area of the health care approach. An Honourable Member: We ll, wait until he gets his majority.

Friday, November 24, 1989 Mr. Harapiak: They said they will vote against this Bill. I know that they were saying that earlier when they were wanting an election. I do not think that they are quite as anxious for an election at this point as they were when the budget came about. Some of the recent polls have indicated that they have been slipping in their support. Therefore, they are not quite as anxious for an election as they were a couple of months ago. I guess they talked about some of the things that they would spend their money on and one of the areas that we should look at is the home care.

The Home Care Program has been, although they say they have not change d any of the policies-the present Government has not changed any of the policy with the Home Care Program but they certainly have been interpreting. They have been interpreting the policy guid elines where many people are getting cut off. Where they were previously getting sup port under the Home Care Program, they are now being cut off. I guess it worries me very much as to where that will wind up, because I think it was one of the most positive programs that we had brought forward.

It allo wed people to stay in their home with some assistance from a home care worker, which is a heck of a lot more reasonable. The people feel much more positive about their existence when they are able to live in their home surrou ndings. I think it is a very good investment. I would hope that the Home Care Program would be strengthened rather than cut back, and th e

interpretation of the rules would be cut in a way where there are many people that are being cut off. I know there are several examp les of tha t in my own constituency where people were receiving home care previously are now not receiving the home care support that they were getting previous ly. I that it is really being foolish in their approach when they are cutting off the support that home care workers were getting previous ly. I think that it is much cheaper to have people living in their own home than to have them living in the institutions.

When you add the cost of all the health care workers that are requir ed when you liv e in the institutions, it is a good investment to strengthen that Home Care Program and not be cutting back in it. Mr. Deputy Speaker, one of the other areas that I would like to speak on when I am talking about the Fiscal Stabilization Fund is where they can spend the money today rather than leaving it in a sock for a rainy day, because I think in many cases it is raining. I think one of those areas is the Day Care Program. There have been demonstrations right across the province.

There were guidelines or regulations put in pla ce which required the day care workers to have a certain standard of training before they go into the field. I suppor ted those guidelines when they were put in place, because I belie ve that when day care people are getting service within the day care industry, they should be getting very strong support from qualified people. I know that in cases in northern Manitoba, the meetings I have attended with them, their pay level is lower than what people in the City of Winnipeg are getting.

Once again, I point to the fact that their cost of living is much higher in southern Manitoba. I know those people, in many cases, are single-parent families that are supporting families, and they are not getting the type of funding that they should. I think it would be a very good investment on the part of the Premier and this Cabinet to put some funding into day care to supplement the wages of it. It is not only supplementing the wages, I think it is impo rtant that we continue to offer the quality of day care that is second to none in Canada.

I think in many instances, the Manitoba day care program was used as an example when other jurisdictions were sett ing up a day care program. The Manitoba day care program was used as an example of how their program should be set up. I think they should continue to suppo rt what we had in pla ce for them, continue to provide the training that is required and supplement their salaries so they will not be leaving the day care field like they are now. They feel they are not being paid an appropriate level of salary so they have no choice but to leave it.

Many of the people who are working in that industry are there because of the fact that they love to work with children and they love children, but that eventually wears out. Those people do need an appropriate salary scale to continue to stay in that field. Who is going to suffer if there is a high turnover in the day care field? It is the children who are our future, and no investment is too great for that field at this time. I think the Min ister of Family Services (Mr s.

Oleson), should look very seriously at meeting with these people and resolving that issue so they can continue to provide the quality of day care tha t they have been providing in the last little while. We have received many petitions from right across the province supporting MCCA in their efforts to try and get an appropria te pay level for the people who are emp loyed in that field. Mr.

Deputy Speaker , one of the other areas that I think is very important that we address, and one of the areas that we could be spending some of this $200 million Fiscal Stabilization Fund on, is in the whole area of the environment. I know that the previous Minister who was responsible for Environment did not believe in supporting the environment. While he was the Minis ter responsible for it he was a complete disaster. I am pleased that the Premier chose to remove him, and we have a much more reasonable Mi nister in that position right now. There are some areas that they should also be looking at supporting.

I think some funding could come from this Fiscal Stabili zation Fund, which would protect and I am speaking about the area of protecting the water supply for the City of Winnipeg. When over half of the population of the Province of Manitoba receives their water supply from Sho al Lake surely that is an area that is worth protect ing. The Winnip eg Water Protection group has been work ing very dili gently to tr y and educate the 3233

Friday, November 24, 1989 Government on some of the needs that are out there in the whole area of protecting our water supply for the City of Winnipeg . I think it would be appropriate for this Government to supply some intervening funding for this group. They have some very excellent people who were involved with that Winnipeg Water Protection group who have brought some really good recommendations forward of how we can be ensuring that our supply of water is not affected . I would hope that the Members of the Cabinet , who are present, would take that message to the Minister of the Environment (Mr.

Cummings), support that and bring forward some intervening funding for that group . They have done some investigative work , which has shown that there is a threat to that water supply . They were accused, at one time, of maybe helping cause some of the difficulties that were in samples that were brought forward for testing. I know once the testing was completed they absolved any wrongful connections with anyone . It was really the mining industry that was in that area had not contained their waste in a proper way and some of the waste ., was leaking into Shoal Lake.

I think that they brought this information forward . I think there are documents now that show there are some serious environmental concerns about the water supply that the City of Winnipeg is receiving . I think this Cabinet should use some of this rainy day fund to make sure that our water supply for the City of Winnipeg is protected . *

(1200) There was some information that was shared with us which showed that there was a different approach being taken by the Ontario Government which would take the need for environmental assessment away from The Environment Act and put it under The Municipal Act. These people do not have the expertise of dealing with this very difficult situation . Therefore , I would hope this Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) that we have in the Province of Manitoba who is much more concerned than the previous-yes, he is a good man .

He is much more concerned about the environment than the previous Minister, and will make a strong presentation to the Ontario Government to make sure that it stays within the Environment Department and is not shuffled off under Municipal Affairs which would make it much less meaningful when dealing with the environment . I would hope the Premier and the mayor who was recently re-elected should be becoming more involved in dealing with the water supply that is so necessary for over $600,000.00. An Honourable Member: Those guys did not do anything, not a thing. They passed the legislation, but did nothing. (Mr.

Speaker in the Chair) Mr. Harapiak: The previous Minister of Environment once again says we passed the Act and did not do anything about it. Even though he was Minister he does not seem to realize that the Act was passed shortly before we were defeated as a Government. An Honourable Member: You never heard of preconsultation and preparation and planning and organizing. That is why he got thrown out. Mr. Harapiak: Well, I guess that is where the preconsultation was going on.

The Environment Act consultation went on with all segments of society- An Honourable Member: You were about to do it the about-to-do-it Government. Mr. Harapiak: No, we were not about to do it. We had done the consultation prior to our being defeated and The Environment Act was brought forward. We were going to bring forward regulations which dealt with many parts of The Environment Act. The new Government did not act on that at all. I think that they have failed and maybe we should have put some of those regulations right into the Act and been a little more forceful with the way it was brought in.

I think there was an opportunity for the new Government to bring forward some regulations which would have protected the Winnipeg water supply, but they failed to act on it. I would hope that the Minister would bring forward intervener funding for the Winnipeg protection group, because they are doing an excellent job of informing everyone of how our water supply can be affected by the development on Shoal Lake . I think one of the areas that they should look it is how the Shoal Lake Band can be supported in their economic development. I know that they deserve the opportunity to have economic development.

How can that be addressed without affecting the water supply? How can the mining industry operate without affecting our water supply? I think there is a lot of research that needs to be carried out and I think it would be a good investment on the part of this Government to use part of this rainy day fund to have this group supported for some funding. I know some of the tests that were carried out showed there was a high level of cyanide. The Minister showed on television that he was not afraid to drink that water, and I guess I would not have taken the same approach as -(interjection)- Mr.

Speaker, in the investigation that was carried out by the Ontario water experts, they were convinced that the mine tailings pond near Shoal Lake was the source of the cyanide . They ruled that the water supply was not spiked . Therefore, there was some need for the mining industry to use a much better system of containing their ponds so that it does not leak into Shoal Lake to affect our water supply. One of the other areas, Mr. Speaker, that when we are dealing with the whole area of environment is the recycling. I know that the Minister of Environment services (Mr.

Cummings) has brought forward a pilot project in the Wolseley area to move ahead with some recycling, a blue box program in the City of Winnipeg . I think that it is important that we continue to support that program . I think you will see that the people of Manitoba are further ahead in this whole subject of recycling than 3234

Friday, November 24, 1989 the Government is. I think they have done a good job of educating the public on how the recycling can be done. I think they continue to bring forward many suggestions of how it can be improved . We should be supporting this on a much wider basis than it is right now. I guess it is prudent that we have put it into one part of the city. If we do not want to follow the examples that have been going on in Ontario which shows very clearly that a good portion of the waste that was going into landfill sites on previous occasions can be used for recycling.

I think that the project in Wo lseley will show that Manitobans will participate at a very high level. It is my hope that when the Government sees the results of the Wolseley pilot project that they will come forward and have city-wide recycling. There is- Mr. Speaker, I am having a great deal of difficulty in speaking because the Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery) continues to interrupt me and I think it is very unfair of him to be carrying out- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Mi nister of Consumer and Co-operative Affairs (Mr. Connery) and the Hon our able Mem ber for El mwood (Mr .

Malo way), if the two of you wish to carry on your conversation, you can do so in the Members' Lounge. The Honourable Member for The Pas has the floor. Mr. Harapiak: Mr. Speaker, we are dealing on the subject of recycling and I would hope that there is one other area that this Government would have the courage to move into and that is in the area of using recycled paper. I know that there is an example of the federal Government in the United States where they have shown that a certain percentage of their pu rchases will have to be with recycled paper.

It was not very long after they made that decision that the entire pulp and paper industry in the Unit ed States moved in that direction. I know that in discussions with Repap on this very same subject they are saying it was not possible to util ize recycled papers. I have no technical information whatso ever. I have no expertise in this area.

I know when industry in the United States could move in that direction, then surely if the provincial Government, who is a major purchaser of paper in the Province of Manitoba, if they said that a certain percentage of their materials would be of recyclable type then it would not be very long before all of the industries in Manitoba would be moving in that direction as well. As it stands right now you cannot pur chase recycled paper from Canada.

We certainly have not follo wed the example of some of the European countries and recently the United States who have said that they would be utilizing recycled paper to a much greater degree. An Honourable Member: About to do it. Mr. Harapiak: The former Min ister of the department says he is about to do it. Maybe it would be appropriate for us to have an election at this time so they would be defeated and then they would say we were about to do it but we got defeat ed. I think that the Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery) is very excited about an election.

I think if he is that excited, they are in a position to call it. Why do they not call it? If you are that anxious for an election, why do you not call the election and just see what the people of Manitoba would tell you about what an excellent job you are doing. If you are that sure, do it.- (interjection)- The Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery) is telling us, defeat him. I guess they are not quite as confident as he says he is because he needs those couple of points which it will cost him if they go to the people of Manitoba rather than being defeat ed, but he may get his wish soon as well.

I was speaking on recycling and I think one of the other areas that we need to be doing some research in which some of this Fiscal Stabi lization Fund can be used in is the recycling of oil. There are some industries that have moved into that area and the complete supply of recycled oil was used up completely by this jurisdiction. I think that the industry needs to be encouraged into moving in that direction and I would hope that the Government would be supportive of an initi ative like that and move into the recycling and put some research money into there.

Pos sibly the corporations have already done that research because there are some other jur isdi ctions that are using recycled oil. * (1210 ) When you deal with procurement the Government of Manitoba is a very big purchaser. If they moved in that direction it would not be very long before you would see other jurisdictions following their example. So I would hope that they would move in that direction. When you talk about recycling one of the other areas that is being util ized to a great degree is the whole field of utilizing the plastic bottles and cans.

It think that the public has reacted very positively to how we can help not only in reducing the landfill sites that are required for burying this waste that was previously coming to our dumps, but also there is a good product that can come out of recycling the materials. There are many volunteer organizations who have participated in fundraising events by utilizing aluminum cans and plastic bottles. Now it is possible for them to bring the glass bottles in as well. At our recent Committee of Natural Resources and Public Utilities we dealt with the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission.

I have to give them credit for it, they came forward and they included the information in the packets when the people were making their purchases at the liquor store, they were given the information of where they can be recycling not only the glass bottles but all of the bottles. It is good that the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission took that initia tive, because I think that there are many people who are looking for that information and if the information gets into the home you will have a much 3235

Friday, November 24, 1989 greater participation th an they have on previous occasions . There was a recycling depot set up in The Pas which was usually run over the summer months, then the Manitoba Soft Drink Bottlers association have extended it to go up to The Pas on a weekly basis now. So I think even the people in remote areas are becoming more and more cognizant of some of the positive things that are happening in recycling . I think that it is working and I want to give credit to the Manitoba Soft Drink Bottlers association for the work that they had done in that area . Mr.

Speaker, one of the other areas that the Government has come up with some initiative-and I want to give credit to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), the Member for Ste. Rose, on his paper in dealing with waste reduction. I know that there is legislation before the House presently which deals with this waste reduction. They have come up with a White Paper which is going to go out and the genera l public is going to be discussing this issue.

I think it is an extremely important area that needs to be discussed because there is a big reduction not only for requiring less space in the landfill sites, but also, as I said on my recycling comments, many of these products can be utilized for either composts in your own yard or many, many different areas that they can be using it. I think it is important that the Government have and give an opportunity for the public to participate in these debates . I know, Mr.

Speaker, the Government has come forward with a lot of rhetoric in the whole area of sustainable development , and I think that is one area that they have been failing in. I know that they were promised a sustainable development centre in Winnipeg and I guess the federal Government has not come through with the funding to this time. Many people expected that by this stage of the game there would have been a physical building coming up which would have been the centre for sustainable development , but unfortunately they have not received the federal fundings .

Maybe they are not using the funds that are available, $200 million from this fund. Maybe part of those funds could be utilized-or maybe they do not even need a new building-in the Fort Whyte Centre where they are doing a lot of excellent research when it comes to dealing with the environment. Mr. Speaker, my light is flashing, how much more time do I have? Two minutes? An Honourable Member: Two more minutes. Mr. Harapiak: I think that this Fiscal Stabilization Fund is an area that we will be supporting with the Government. I think that there are many good areas where this Government can spend these funds.

I have difficulty understanding the Liberal's position when they voted against the budget and yet they talked about how they can spend part of the $200 million that is included in this. One of the areas that I had hoped I could spend some time on is talking about the whole area of agriculture . Agriculture at this time is in a very difficult position and I would hope that the Minister of Agriculture would have some clout within Cabinet , especially with all his rural Members.

They should have no difficulty in appropriating some of this $200 million to the agriculture industry , because we know that agriculture is the backbone of the economy of Manitoba. If that industry at this time is going through a difficult time because of the drought conditions in Manitoba then I hope that the Min ister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay ) can come up with some funds to help these people get through this very difficult period of time .

I am sure that with all of the Members he has from rural Manitoba that they will have no difficulty in wrestling some of this $200 million away to put into this spending because it is raining out there right now and they do require it. Thank you for the opportunity to say a few words . As I mentioned earlier , we will be support ing this when it comes to a vote. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I would like to put my comments on the record with respect to Bill 27. I am very pleased to follow the Member for The Pas, my colleague (Mr.

Harapiak), and follow his very enlightened comments in terms of the Fiscal Stabilization Fund and to reiterate the position of our caucus on this particular Bill. As Members in this House know the NOP Caucus and Members of the New Democratic Party in this Legislature have said we support certainly some aspects of the 1988 budget document. We have said we support tax breaks for families and we support that aspect of the budget. We are committed to finding benefits for Manitoba families and we want to make minority work in that direction .

We have also said we have many concerns about that document including the lack of long-term planning, including the apparent lack of concern about high unemployment in this province and growing deterioration of our economy. We said we have some very strong concerns about the stabilization fund. We have very strong concerns about how that fund was established . As my colleague, the Member for The Pas (Mr.

Harapiak) , has said it makes ·no sense to put together a fund based on underspending because of the political ideological bent of this Government, underspending in key areas , such as Health, Family Services, Education, Agriculture, key areas where there are many, many pressing issues and demands that could have with some direction from the Government of the Day been able to improve their situation , been able to address some very serious concerns, if this Government had had the will to do so. So we have very grave concerns about how the fund has been put together.

We have concerns about how it is intended to be used in the future, we have concerns with many aspects of Bill No. 27. However, we have said we are going to support the fund, because we will have no part of a Government that would be just as happy to take that allocation , that sizeable amount of money and use it to reduce the deficit in a very direct way, to use it to look good on paper in terms of sheer accounting practices . 3236

Friday, November 24, 1989 * (12 20) Our position has been clear from Day One. We are determined to find ways to ensure that this fund be used to address the critical issues of the day, not to be used as a slush fund, a term that has been used in this House over and over again. Members know there is a real danger on the part of Members, on the Government side of this House to want to use this money just prior to an election as a slush fund, to buy votes, to make inroads into communities and into areas where it has to date been very unable to do.

We have said over and over and over again that the problems of the day in many areas of this province are so pressing and so ur ge nt tha t they req ui re the immedia te attention of this Government, and they require the use of that fund, the use of the dollars al located in the Fiscal Stabiliz ation Fund to be redi rected into those areas of pressing concern.

As has been said by all of us, it is raining in Manitoba, it is raining on the workers of Manitoba, it is raining on the families of Manitoba, and this Fiscal Stabilization Fund should be used specifically to deal with those problems, to deal with those concerns, to be redirected immedia tely to those areas of critical necessity. Our position has been clear.

Unlike the Members to the right of me who truly are on the right of us in this House on this issue, who have been strong in their opposition to tax breaks for families and to the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, they have tried to have it both ways on the Fiscal Stabili zation Fund, they have sat on the fence. Some of them have stood up and said they opposed this fund enti rely, should not exist, it should go to deal with the qu estion of debts, it should deal with expenditur es, it should deal with the whole accounting picture facing Manitoba.

Others in the Party to the right of me have stood up and said let us use this money for day care. The Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray) has said let us put this money into family services, the Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema) has said let us use this money for health care, others have said let us put this money into education, all at the same t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-78
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 78.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0beb89e20f31b1d1c313e0282de74750994478fe

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