April

9, 2001 GOVERNMENT SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

The Committee met a 5:15 p.m. in the House of

Assembly.

CHAIR (Mr. Joyce): Order, please!

Present at this meeting we have Mr. Young, Mr.

Osborne, Mr. French, Ms Jones, Mr. Mercer, Mr. Sweeney, and myself, Eddie Joyce.

We have the minister. Minister, you could introduce

your staff or, as they speak, they can introduce themselves.

I will just ask for the subheads so we can get the

meeting -

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01.

Minister, do you want to have some opening remarks?

MR. LANGDON: Thank you very much, Eddie.

What I will do is ask all of the officials to

introduce themselves and go from there.

I want to thank the Committee for appearing today

after being in the House for the full afternoon. I know that supper is not a

long way off for many of you. You would like to be able to go there I am sure,

rather than coming here, but there is a job for us to do and I want to thank you

for doing it. I will talk to you individually after.

For the department, I am not going to do a lot of

introduction to it. There are two main parts, I guess: Municipal and Provincial

Affairs which is at the building here, in the West Block, and then we have

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, which is a Crown Corporation that I am

responsible for as well. They have their own CEO, Mr. Dean, over there. We do

have a number of projects, a number of policies, and a number of programs. I

won't spell them all out. I will give the opportunity to you guys to ask the

questions and so on. Hopefully, we can do that in an expeditious way, and yet,

at the same time, be able to address the concerns and questions that you would

have.

Les, do you want to start?

MR. DEAN: Leslie Dean, CEO of the Housing

Corporation.

MR. SMART: Bob Smart, Deputy Minister of Municipal

and Provincial Affairs.

MS COLE: Ramona Cole, Assistant Deputy Minister of

Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. CURTIS: Ken Curtis, Manager of Budgeting,

Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. MOORE: John Moore, Director of Policy and

Planning, Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. WALSH: Jim Walsh, Parliamentary Secretary for

Housing to the Minister.

MS MARSHALL: Mary Marshall, Vice President of

Housing Operations, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

MR. CONWAY: Jim Conway, Chief Financial Officer at

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

MR. ROSE: Baxter Rose, Executive Director, Policy

and Planning with Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Director of Communications

with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

CHAIR: Good to see you could make it, Mr. Kelly; a

bit late but it is good to see you.

Mr. French, would you like to start the questioning?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

With your permission and indulgence, I would like to

make a few opening comments. I am the minister's critic. I do know, Minister,

that you look after Municipal and Provincial Affairs, so maybe at the end of the

- well, I have to say, Mr. Dean can answer this.

I find it very, very frustrating, as the critic for

Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and even when I go into my own district, some

of the phone calls I get - I have a feeling sometimes, and I am sure most MHAs

do, that I am not so sure when I am talking to people at the Housing Corporation

if they really understand what I am talking about, you know. When you walk into

a house and you sit with the poor soul who has to live in this house and the

wind is blowing, the canvas almost takes your head off, and yet somebody will go

in and say: Well, I am not so sure he is an emergency. Where does this

individual get the right to say if it is an emergency or not? I guess what I am

saying is: What is the expertise? I mean, the fact that the canvas only blows up

one foot on Wednesday night but Thursday night it might blow up ten, how does

this poor devil, at the end of the day, live?

I had an incident in my district a while ago. It was a

blocked sewer line and, at the end of the day, between myself and somebody at

Housing, whom I will not name, we convinced the municipality to go out with a

snake and push out a bit of stuff that had this poor devil's sewer line blocked.

Now, you know, somebody might say it is only $45 to go rent the snake to shove

out through the end of a line, but it is when you do not have $45. People might

think: oh, people, they always have a few bucks here and a few bucks there.

There are a lot of people in my area who, when they say they do not have the

money, I know in my own heart and soul they haven't got the money. It is useless

to call social assistance because social assistance is going to send me off to

you fellas and when I get to you fellas, somebody is probably going to say: Oh

no, boy, Mr. French, we haven't got money to help this poor individual out.

I can think of other incidents. There is another one I

am dealing with now. I will not get into the poor chap's name because I do not

have the final report back from you people. I did convince an inspector that

they should go out and have a look at this man's property. Now somebody said:

Well, he only had an application in for six months or twelve months. To hell

with the application! If this poor devil needs something to keep him going and

keep him alive, and to make renovations to his home or his property, then I

really and truly think that somebody somewhere has to have a heart.

I find sometimes, at the end of the day, I am not left

with that feeling, when I talk - now, Bob, that is social assistance, and I call

social assistance: Bob, that is not us, boy, that is Housing. At the end of the

day, it becomes very frustrating for me as a MHA. I can be very colorful

sometimes. If you think Roger Grimes knows a few angelic words, believe you me,

so do I, and I am not above, sometimes, expressing them.

It really bothers me sometimes when I call Housing and

this is the way - I know of a gentleman who just died in my district, who was

living in a house that they rented. They were told a year ago: Within six months

to a year, you must move out of this home, it is no longer available for rent.

In my district, unfortunately, the accommodation that these people need is not

available. So: Mr. Jones, we can move you to St. John's. Mr. and Mrs. Jones

never lived in St. John's in their lives. Mr. and Mrs. Jones are lost once they

come out of the

section in Conception Bay South that they live in.

I always say to people, and I do this a lot when I

deal with, I guess you would call it Human Resources, Eddie, but I do it a lot

when I talk to, I will refer to them as social assistance. I say to some of

these people: Boys, it is time for you to have a so-and-so heart. It is time

that you realize that there are people in this world, or on this earth, who are

worse or poorer off than we are.

I guess I got the biggest raking down I ever got in my

life from a lady on the West Coast of the Province who phoned me because I was

the Municipal Affairs critic. I have to say the chap I called at Housing was a

very nice man and I spoke to a very nice lady. I would not blame the fellow in

Housing if she never got the price of a cup of tea after the way she addressed

me, and I know she addressed this fellow. So, there are a lot of times I realize

that it is not the fault of the worker. Sometimes a reaction is created by some

of these actions towards you. I have people who have phoned me since I have been

an MHA, and I would just say: Boy, listen, if you want this conversation to

continue, you do one of two things: You either calm down or good-bye. I will

hang up. Nobody abuses me. I don't earn enough money to be abused. If somebody

wants my help I am all there to help them.

I find sometimes, when I deal with Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing, I am not so sure if some of the inspectors that we have really

have a heart, or if it is Human Resources way of getting rid of me by saying, go

to Housing, and then if it is Housing's way to get rid of me by saying that I

have to go back to social assistance. Some of these poor devils are suffering

and they are suffering in a great way.

I just wonder what you can add. Maybe I should be

calling you, maybe I should not be calling the individual worker. Maybe that is

where I fooled up. Maybe the next time you just might get a phone call from me.

No maybes to it, you will. Believe you me, if I am not happy the next time round

you will know that I am not happy the next time round. I don't mind waiting

twenty-four hours to have my calls returned, but I am not going to wait three,

four and five days. I am not going to do that, and the next time that happens to

me you will definitely get a call from me.

MR. DEAN: Mr. Chairman, Leslie Dean, for the

record.

Mr. French, I would hope that the several examples

that you have highlighted are examples only of the challenges that the

corporation is facing. We deal with a large clientele. These individuals, as you

correctly point out, are in very, very difficult circumstances.

I have been with the corporation for just two months

and to be quite honest with you, Mr. French, most of the people that I deal

with, and have had the opportunity to deal with, speak very favorably indeed of

the corporation. There are bound to be examples where, for a number of reasons,

the corporation cannot respond on a timely basis. But, the reality today is that

the corporation's budget, 99 per cent of its budget, is directed towards social

housing. There will be challenges. I think the minister will agree with me. We

have confidence in our staff. If, in fact, from time to time, there are

situations which require, as you suggest, probably a more immediate response,

then the corporation and it's staff will try and respond as quickly and as

expeditiously as we can.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you very much.

I will just tell you this - it is an aside, Minister -

it is not your department but it is the Department of Human Resources.

I have a chap in my district who was injured in an

automobile accident and whose family went out and arranged for this fella to

receive chiropractic treatment at no cost to him, but what the poor fella needed

was a $5 taxi fare so that they would be able to pick him up and take him when

they were going to do this stuff for nothing, and other treatments that he

required. His doctor recommended that he get this. The only way that I could get

the $5 for this fella was thanks to Gerald Smith. I had to phone the minister

and the minister had to intercede on this young fella's behalf so we could get a

lousy $5 so that once or twice a week this young fella could have a taxicab that

they could put him into, put his wheelchair in the trunk, and take him down to

have this service administered.

Oliver, that drives me crazy. I did not get elected to

this business to forget the people who sent me here. That is how I feel

sometimes about Housing. The worst agency in the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador, by the way, is the division that deals with injured workers. You and I

have had several conversations when you were in another department and you

looked after workers compensation. I have never gone to a meeting - not because

of Mr. Gullage, because he is a fine fella - but I have never gone to one of

these meetings and come away happy, and I have never gone to one of these

meetings and come out when I wasn't so mad I could have bitten nails. So, I am

just hoping, Les, that Housing does not become that way because it is a shame.

We do have people in this Province, in my district - and every member of this

House, on both sides of the House, have people who go through what I go through.

I am sure this member does and these two members from time to time go through

the same frustration, and I am sure Tom and Wally do.

Anyway, Les, I will thank you for that and do not be

surprised some day if I do call you.

MR. DEAN: By all means.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would now like to start. Minister, on page 229,

heading 1.1.01., Minister's Office, I just want to go down to 06. which is

Purchased Services. We budgeted $3,700 but we spent $29,200 and now this year we

are gone back to $3,700 again. Can somebody tell me what that was all about and

why?

MR. LANGDON: This increase, Bob, reflects an

increase in costs associated with hosting meetings with municipalities, umbrella

groups, and increasing media monitoring, communication costs and increased

printing requirements. When we host meetings with municipalities and umbrella

groups like NLAMA and, I would think, the Newfoundland and Labrador Association

of Fire Chiefs and Firefighters and so on, these are extra increases that we

would have with hosting these meetings.

MR. FRENCH: Minister, if I just might, because I

do know in certain parts of my own district there is land which is zoned

agricultural. You wouldn't grow a rock on it. You might get enough rocks on it

to beat out somebody's window. People want to sell their land and I am just

wondering, when it is listed as agricultural property, does that fall under your

department or some other minister?

MR. LANGDON: That is Rick Woodford's department.

That would be under Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. FRENCH: In order to have a change made in a

community, such as the one in which I live, we would first have to come to your

department, would we not, to seek a plan change? Or would we not?

MR. SMART: Depending on how that agricultural zone

was established in the first place, there were a number of agricultural zones

established by Order-in-Council, such as the St. John's agricultural zone, and

therefore it would fall under the jurisdiction of the minister of agriculture,

and would require an Order-in-Council to have those amended. There are other

agricultural zones that are established within municipality boundaries, and if

the municipality wanted to modify an agricultural zone that it had established,

we could look at that in our department. So it all depends on the mechanism by

which it may have been established in the first place.

MR. FRENCH: If it was established by agriculture,

then the person in my area who is seeking a change or who wants a change would

really have to go to Rick, Oliver, and not to yourself.

MR. LANGDON: That is right.

MR. FRENCH: Down in the next section, 1.2.01.01.,

Salaries, we budgeted $445,500; we spent $369,200; and now for the year

2000-2001 we are going back up to $381,300. Does that mean, for part of last

year under Salaries, when we budgeted $445,500, there was a position which was

not filled so we only spent $369,200? And this year are we creating another

position that is going to put us back up to $381,300?

MR. LANGDON: No. From $445,500 to $369,200, that

reduction shows the removal of the ADM for the special projects position. I

think it might have been the St. John's Fire Chief, Mike Dwyer. Mike was with

our department as ADM for special projects and then he went to work with - I am

not sure of the actual name for it - the St. John's or the Avalon region

firefighters, and became the Fire Chief or the fire executive down there.

MR. FRENCH: Is that position now filled within

your department?

MR. LANGDON: No.

MR. FRENCH: Why have we budgeted $381,300 for this

year?

MR. LANGDON: I would think, Bob, just looking at

normal adjustments, probably an increase from an administrative position. I am

not sure. Other than that, I think that is the only definition that I would

give.

WITNESS: It is normal adjustment, step progression

and -

MR. LANGDON: Step progression and things of that

nature.

MR. FRENCH: I can only say that if a fellow is

earning pretty close to $30,000 a pay period, he is getting some salary. He must

have some job. I wouldn't mind having a job like it, let me tell you that.

WITNESS: The change is from $369,200 to $381,300.

WITNESS: That is $12,000.

MR. LANGDON: It is $12,000.

WITNESS: For all staff.

MR. FRENCH: A pay period.

WITNESS: No, no, for the year.

MR. FRENCH: Oh, okay.

WITNESS: We just had an extra pay period for the

whole (inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Can we go to page 230. Under subhead 1.2.02.06.,

Purchased Services, we budgeted $69,800, and we spent $118,300. Why was that?

MR. LANGDON: This increase reflects greater than

anticipated advertising costs related to Fire Prevention Week, Municipalities

Week, job competitions and so on. We over budgeted there for that. We didn't

actually need the money.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

On page 231, subhead 2.1.01.06., again, Minister,

Purchased Services, we budgeted $147,300, we only spent $147,100, and it is

$147,300 for this year. My question here is: What kind of services are they?

What services are we talking about here?

MR. LANGDON: There is an increase of barely $200.

MR. FRENCH: No, but I mean -

MR. LANGDON: You want what kind of service it is?

MR. FRENCH: Yes. The $147,300, what are we

spending that on?

WITNESS: Rent for the regional offices.

MR. LANGDON: One of the officials says, Bob, it is

rent for the regional offices that we would have. We have regional offices in

Grand Falls-Windsor, we have one in Gander, we have an office in Corner Brook

and we have one in Happy Valley-Goose Bay. I am not sure if we have another one

or not.

WITNESS: There is one at the Viking Building.

MR. LANGDON: One at the Viking Building as well.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Sir.

On page 232, subhead 2.2.01.10., Grants and Subsidies,

we budgeted $201,000 for this year. I just wondered what type of grants and

subsidies they are.

MR. LANGDON: That is the number of feasibility

studies that were completed with respect to the regionalization of municipal

services, and it was less than what we had anticipated.

Let me give you the list of grants that were here,

Bob: Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Municipalities was $13,000;

Municipal Training and Development Partnership was $36,000; Newfoundland and

Labrador Association of Municipal Administrators was $12,000; the Combined

Councils of Labrador was $35,000; and Regional Cooperative Initiatives was

$80,000, for a total of $201,000.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Sir.

On page 233, Minister, subhead 2.3.01.05, Professional

Services, we had $23,000 there last year, $23,000 again, but we spent $55,900. I

just wonder why the increase to $55,900, and if you can tell me exactly what

type of services we are talking about?

MR. LANGDON: Number thirty-seven there, that

reflects the relocation of funds from special assistance in order to hire an

engineering consultant to oversee the investigation and drilling of a new well

for the water supply system in the Goulds Pond Road area - I think that might

have been Tom Hedderson's area -

MR. FRENCH: I know where it is, yes.

MR. LANGDON: - and to digitize a number of the

department's hard copy maps. That was $20,000.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Minister, 2.3.02., again Professional Services, we

budgeted $161,400 and we spent 197,900 - I would like to know why that is - and

we budgeted $151,100 for this year. Can you tell me what type of professional

services are under that heading as well?

MR. LANGDON: We have thirty-eight and forty-two,

right?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. LANGDON: We have $151,100; $197,900; and

$161,400? That is the area? Subhead 2.3.02.05., is that the one we are looking

at?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is the one, Sir.

MR. LANGDON: Basically, these Professional

Services expenditures are for the industrial water systems. We have a number of

those industrial water systems in different communities now where the plants

used to run on them. For example, there used to be one in Gaultois, Ramea,

Seldom, and Comfort Cove. Basically what we are doing is, we are getting rid of

those industrial water systems after we bring them up to par. That would mean

that we would need less money to be able to operate some of them because they

have been disposed of. We had to engage engineering consultants as well to

oversee the repairs and to do upgrades a little quicker than we had anticipated.

That is what these services are.

MR. FRENCH: So most of that money, in actual fact

then, will actually go to consultants. Is that what you are telling me?

MR. LANGDON: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Down and under that there is Purchased

Services. We budgeted $641,100, we only spent $570,000, and this year we are

$599,600. I am not worried about the difference in the amounts of money, but if

you could tell me, please, exactly what type services are budgeted and covered

off under that?

MR. LANGDON: That is the industrial water systems

still. Once we upgrade it to whatever standard it is, and we divert ourselves of

it, since we pay 100 per cent of it upfront for the municipalities that are

affected, then they take control of these particular systems afterwards. So that

is where that money would be primarily to the communities that have industrial

water systems.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, Minister, I do not have any more

questions - a couple of my colleagues are going to take them up - but I do have

one question left in my mind.

MR. LANGDON: Okay.

MR. FRENCH: There was money budgeted under this

year's budget to help municipalities in our Province correct water problems. As

you and I both know, there is something in excess of 200 municipalities now in

this Province who are under boil orders for their drinking water.

I have been around this Island a few times. I stayed

in a hotel not too long ago where - and I take certain medications - I got up in

the morning and I took the medication with bottled that was provided in the

room. I know of other municipalities in this Province where there is a boil

order on and they advise you, when you go in and check in to their hotel room,

not to even brush your teeth with the water that comes out of the tap. What are

the plans for this money that was in the budget? How are we going to correct

some of these problems that some of the municipalities have?

MR. LANGDON: As you know, first of all my

predecessor last year, Joan Marie Aylward, at the convention of mayors and

municipalities, I think they put forward something like $1.5 million at that

particular time to help towns whose chlorinator systems are not working properly

or wanted to have new ones installed or upgraded. We have had a number of takes

on these from communities right across the whole Province. Still, as we speak,

there are others that we are helping out almost on a daily basis to do that.

What I wanted to say you, I guess, in that sense, is

that we have put extra money in there this year into the water budget to address

some of these needs. There is no doubt about it, there are a lot of needs out

there. I do not have to tell you, you know are well as I do, with all the

communities that we have incorporated, and the local service districts and

communities that are unincorporated, we have probably close to 832 bodies of

water that the municipalities depend on. To be able to address them as fast and

as quickly as we would like would be almost impossible to do, but we are

actively working with the municipalities, the ones that need chlorination. I met

with the member. Wallace's group was in the other day. They had a problem with

one of their towns. I just forget the name of town now.

WITNESS: Hawkes Bay.

MR. LANGDON: Hawkes Bay. Right on the spot we said

to them, these are dollars -

MR. FRENCH: That is one of the municipalities in

which I stayed.

MR. LANGDON: We just said to the community: You go

ahead and get it done. We told the engineer to do that, and we paid 100 per cent

for the community even before they left the office. We are trying to do that

with as many municipalities as we can.

MR. FRENCH: I know that there are some

municipalities in the Province which have dug wells.

MR. LANGDON: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Not dug by hand, but dug by machinery.

MR. LANGDON: Ground dug.

MR. FRENCH: Is any of this money earmarked to

serve some of these communities?

MR. LANGDON: For chlorination and that, you mean?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. LANGDON: Yes. The thing is, in every community

now, Bob, whether by ground water or surface water, if it is not chlorinated, we

are saying to them: You have to chlorinate or else leave the boil water on.

Believe it or not, there are certain people who say to

us: Our ground water, our artisan wells, the water in them is pure and we do not

need it chlorinated; we get it tested, and all those things. But we have the

directive - using the Canadian water standards association guidelines - saying

that if the water is not chlorinated then we will suggest to the community that

they do boil the water.

That is where we had a large number of municipalities

last summer that were given that boil order to do that, because the water wasn't

chlorinated.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Thank you very much.

I have to be excused.

MR. LANGDON: What I can say to you before you go,

Bob, is that we are giving consideration to the communities that have very

serious needs for their chlorinator system, and there are no questions asked. It

is 100 per cent funded by the department, as Wallace would attest the other day

when he came in.

MR. FRENCH: The last time I saw such a big crowd

as this with the minister was when Art Reid was the minister. It is good to see.

MR. LANGDON: Are you going to make the same

comment? You are going to reserve judgment on that, are you?

MR. FRENCH: I have to reserve judgment. You are

not there long enough, Oliver.

MR. LANGDON: I understand.

MR. FRENCH: I almost got eaten by some of my own

people for praising Art.

MR. LANGDON: Thanks Bob.

CHAIR: Mr. Osborne.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Joyce.

It is a pleasure again to be asking questions to the

minister. I have asked questions to this minister for some time. While I might

say that in the House we fight vigorously, outside the House we have a mutual

respect. He is a decent fellow indeed.

I will go back to 1.1.01.01., under Salaries. There

has been a continuous increase from the amount budgeted last year through to the

revised and then to the Estimates this year. I was wondering why we do have

extra?

MR. LANGDON: I do have a Parliamentary Assistant,

a Parliamentary Secretary, Mr. Walsh, and there are certain remunerations that

are associated with that position. That would be some indication for the

increase there.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Subhead 1.2.02.03., Transportation and Communication.

MR. LANGDON: The funds have been allocated there,

Tom, to cover an increase in postage costs associated with the implementation of

a new collection procedure related to accounts receivable.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Do you anticipate that the extra

expenditures will actually be reflected in the amounts collected?

MR. LANGDON: That is for Government Services and

Lands.

Ramona?

MS COLE: Government Services and Lands has a large

number of permit fees, a large number of small revenue items, and we have

increased our collection efforts in regard to those because there are a lot of

them outstanding. In order to actually carry out the collection procedures, we

need an increase of about $80,000 for postage.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

There is about an $84,000 increase there. I guess my

question is: Do you anticipate receiving in excess of $80,000 -

MS COLE: We have actually received quite a lot in

excess of $80,000 already, just through the beginning of the increased

collection procedures.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Over and above what was collected?

MS COLE: Yes. I think they expect to collect well

in excess of $1 million actually.

MR. T. OSBORNE: In excess of what was being

collected previously?

MS COLE: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.1.01., again under 01.,

Salaries, there is an increase there as well.

MR. LANGDON: Yes. Remember we said we were going

to hire three engineering technicians to assist the municipalities with their

drinking water initiatives. So these are these people.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Excellent. Okay.

Under 03., Transportation and Communications.

MR. LANGDON: Obviously if we are going to have

these extra people, they are going to be doing more traveling and so on, so that

will pick up their transportation costs.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Absolutely.

Under 2.2.01., again under 01., Salaries.

MR. LANGDON: This is additional funds provided to

cover the transfer of an executive director from the Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing Corporation, and this is partly offset by a vacant position in the

division for 2001-2002. The savings in this division reflect a vacant position

for part of the year.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. So, there was a position

transferred from Housing?

MR. LANGDON: Executive Director of Policy and

Planning, yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Transportation and

Communications, there was a $7,000 increase from the budgeted last year to the

revised. I noticed throughout the Estimates actually, the $7,000 figure seems to

be fairly consistent.

MR. LANGDON: What the people have said here is

that, because of the committees of government talking about participation in

Federation of Municipalities delegations - these would be people from our

department who would accompany, for example, the Newfoundland and Labrador

Federation of Municipalities, if they did a trek to the United States or to

Vancouver looking at municipalities and ways to improve their system. We would

have somebody from the department who would accompany them. They have been doing

a bit more of that over the last couple of years, so, in a sense, if we are

going to accompany them then we need extra dollars to be able to do that. I

think that is where that comes from.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.3.01., Salaries: It is not

so much the increase from the budgeted last year to the estimated this year, but

to the revised amount last year.

MR. LANGDON: This relates to the retention of a

program coordinator to administer the Disaster Financial Assistance Program

fund. On the South Coast last year, when they had a vicious storm, they had

major damage in Port aux Basques and other communities along the coast, so we

had a coordinator who was responsible for that.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Again under Transportation, the $7,000 -

MR. LANGDON: That is the new infrastructure

program they had in place between the feds and us. There were a couple of times

when people in the department, who administer the infrastructure program for us,

went to meetings in Moncton. This signifies the extra cost that is there for

that.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.3.02., Transportation and

Communications, there is a $7,000 increase under the revised last year.

MR. LANGDON: I guess, also, that refers to travel

of people within the department. There were a few trips higher than what we had

anticipated. Again, with the breakdown of some of these industrial water supply

systems that we have, some of them are getting old, and we are responsible for

them, so if something happens then we have to send somebody from the department

to take care of that rather than have the community itself do it.

We are hoping, over the long run, that once we get all

of those done - and there are not a large number of them left, Tom, these

industrial water supply systems - then the department won't be responsible for

that. As I said to you earlier, we will give them a system that meets the

standards and then after that the communities have agreed to operate it.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 3.1.02., under Municipal Operating Grants, there

is approximately a $2 million increase under last year's -

MR. LANGDON: Yes. This reflects the provision of a

one-time funding to assist municipalities. I have a list of the municipalities

that would be here.

WITNESS: It is pro-rated among all of them.

MR. LANGDON: It is pro-rated among everybody.

There are communities that, for example, might have a problem with the sewer

system, and they come to us and say, we cannot afford it, or whatever the case

might be. It might be $25,000 or $30,000. We look at it and basically pick up

the cost for them. There might be other examples that, if Wayne Churchill were

here, he could probably relate to us. But, basically that is what it is.

These happen all the time, by the way. In any

municipality, whether it is Hawks Bay or one in my district, or whatever, there

are circumstances sometimes that are unforeseen in the budget, and when you have

a small municipality they look to us for help. We have to leave somewhat of a

number in the budget to deal with that, because it is like - and I use Wallace

again - when you came the other day. If we did not have the dollars there for

that, through the chlorination system, we would find it somewhere else. It could

be that he would come in say: We have a major problem with one of our life

stations, and we cannot manage it ourselves, we want you to do it for us. It is

a one-time thing and that is done right across the whole Province. I am sure

members on both sides of the House would know what I am talking about, and they

have had the opportunity to access that fund.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Again under Special Assistance, 3.1.03., Grants and

Subsidies, 10., it was almost $4 million last year.

MR. LANGDON: That is job creation and that stuff

right across the whole Province. Last year, I guess, every district and every

MHA had make-work projects, MCP, especially in the rural parts of the Province

and that is what that would show.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 3.2.02., the

Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Program. I am just wondering if you can give

us an idea of what has been happening there.

MR. LANGDON: As I said to Bob earlier - I did not

get into the numbers - I guess over the last few months all of the

municipalities, small towns and communities in the larger cities and so on, have

been looking for money under the infrastructure program to deal with problems,

primarily in green projects such as water and sewer. We are putting emphasis on

that. In fact, we have had over 1,000 requests - I think it is 1,046 requests -

and something in excess of $521 million, and we have $50 million to be able to

deal with the problem. There is no doubt about it, it has taken a lot of work.

We are still assessing it in the department and the people of the department are

looking at all of these projects, and are in the process of assessing them. We

should very shortly be able to say what communities or what projects would be

allocated for this year. We want to take it and do it - every project is

important, but we cannot look after 1,046. So, I guess, it is the most urgent

ones that we look at first. We want to do due diligence to it before we release

it. That is where we are.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you.

Under 3.2.03., there is an increase there under 06.,

Purchased Services, from the budgeted amount last through to the Estimates this

year.

MR. LANGDON: This reflects an increase in the

carryover of commitments in 2001-2002, federal funding under the federal

agreement. So it is a carryover. Sometimes when you have projects, they give you

funding for one year and it is carried over two or three years. So that is

funding that is carried over for that particular period as shown in that

particular float there.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you.

Under 4.1.02., Supplies, 04., there is about $23,000

less spent than what was actually budgeted for.

MR. LANGDON: Yes. This again relates to reduced

activity levels related to emergency training and emergency planning

initiatives, partly due to a vacant position, as well as a level of activity

under these programs that varies from year to year. Because of the vacant

position we have, that is why it was only $13,400, and will go back to its

original estimate of $36,000 for this year.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I am going to skip ahead for a

moment to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, page 243, under 1.1.01. There is an

increase there under Grants and Subsidies.

MR. LANGDON: Say that one again, Tom.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 1.1.01., under Grants and

Subsidies.

MR. LANGDON: So it is gone from $6,400,000 revised

and budgeted to $8,260,000.

Can you speak to that, Les?

MR. DEAN: Mr. Minister, I will ask Mr. Conway,

Chief Financial Officer, to speak to the increase.

MR. CONWAY: There were a number of increases that

the Corporation incurred last year in many areas of operation. With respect to

the Budget increase, the increases are due primarily to additional funding to

cover significantly higher home-heating costs, previously negotiated salary and

pay equity costs, the Northern Coast of Labrador expenditures and support for

community centers.

MR. LANGDON: (Inaudible) this year or the fact

that it was highlighted in the Budget. It is to offset the cost of program

coordinators in the corporation funded community centers. We have a number of

them here in St. John's. I can just think of the one down in Mr. Noel's -

WITNESS: Virginia Park.

MR. LANGDON: Virginia Park. There is one at

Buckmaster's Circle and there is one at Brophy Place.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Again, I guess, somewhat of a

carryover to some of the comments that Bob made: I found that the staff at

Housing have been very, very helpful with any inquiries that I have had, which

is very much appreciated. However, under the PHRP, I have run into some

resistance there. I haven't had any inquiries that I have had complications with

lately, but I have, over the previous couple of years - and I can contact you,

perhaps later, Les, on one of those to see if we can rectify that particular

situation - found that in some circumstances where the conditions that people

are living in are far from desirable, it is very difficult to get funding for

them under the PHRP program. Again, it is seldom that it happens, but when it

does, I guess it is frustrating to deal with that particular situation. In

general, with housing inquiries and so on, I have to commend the staff of

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. They have been very, very helpful. Whenever

we have an inquiry they are always very quick to respond.

MR. LANGDON: Mr. Chairman, it is good to hear that

because, as I indicated, in the two months that I have been at the Corporation,

generally, I have found that the comments on the performance of the staff have

been very, very favorable, all over.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Absolutely. They all deserve

raises, I will say to the minister.

WITNESS: They just got that.

MR. LANGDON: They just got that, and very

substantial over the three years.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Well, they deserve them.

MR. LANGDON: They do so. Absolutely!

MR. T. OSBORNE: Absolutely!

The only complaint that I have with the Housing

Corporation is the PHRP program.

MR. LANGDON: Mary.

MS MARSHALL: Mr. Osborne, I would like to clarify.

This last year we have made some significant changes in the policy surrounding

the Provincial Home Repair Program, so I would hope that the ones you are

talking about, that have been problematic, are more in the past. I know that in

my position I do not seem to have quite as many complaints this year as I have

had in previous years. If you are still getting the same level of complaint we

would like to hear that feedback, because we did make a lot of changes in the

last year. In response we need comments from yourself and many of the members

who represent their constituents. As I say, I hope that there hasn't been quite

the same level of difficulty.

MR. T. OSBORNE: There is one still outstanding.

Again, we can speak on that after. We don't have to get into the details of it

in Committee. We will see if we can rectify that.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Young.

MR. YOUNG: Thank you.

Pretty much all of the questions I had have been

addressed all the way through, so I just have one question.

The Fire Commissioner's Office, under 4.2.01.06.,

Purchased Services, there was an increase there.

MR. LANGDON: That would be the rental cost for the

Commissioner's Office relocating to Deer Lake. Also, a part of it relates to

vehicle repair costs and the need to lease and rent vehicles for short durations

to replace vehicles which were out of service. That is a combination of having

to lease or rent when vehicles breakdown, and, as I said, a part of it is the

relocation to Deer Lake.

MR. YOUNG: Okay.

I just had a question there, but I haven't had the

opportunity, really, to work much with the department since arriving, but it has

been a pleasure so far.

MR. LANGDON: As I said to you, the door is always

open and I want to be able to work with you.

MR. YOUNG: Great.

CHAIR: Mr. Osborne, do you have another question?

MR. T. OSBORNE: I guess, just a friendly reminder.

I know that the minister is working on a petition that I raised today.

MR. LANGDON: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Just to address the staff of

Housing: There is a very serious need for handicapped accessible housing in the

Shea Heights area. I know that you have been working on it and that you are

aware of it, but, I guess, for the benefit of your staff, just the opportunity

to voice that concern. If there is anything you can do to provide a couple of

units, or to perhaps construct a couple of units in the very near future up

there, the demand for it in that area is very high.

MR. LANGDON: I have discussed that, Tom, with Liz

and Mary in meetings that we have had, so hopefully we can address that. I will

leave it with Mary and Liz to do so.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Ms Jones.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have one question and a couple of comments. First of

all, on the municipal side of things, I want to say that I really appreciate the

fact that there have been changes in the municipal infrastructure program, and

changes that reflect the ability of a lot of rural communities in our Province

to be able to access that program.

I have found it very frustrating in the past because I

have all small communities which operate on very small budgets. I have found it

very frustrating trying to access funding for those communities, to be able to

do some very minor things in some cases because they are unable to participate

on a larger scale. At least this change will allow them an opportunity now, and

I want to commend the people in your department and you, Minister, for certainly

taking a lead role in making that change.

I tell you, it gives a great deal of comfort to a lot

of municipalities out there, knowing that they are able to access some funding

this year, next year, and the year after, to be able to meet some of their

demands that they have had in the past.

One of the questions that I have is with regard to

your office in Labrador. Is there any movement at this time to staff that office

with a regional director, in terms of looking at municipal issues for

communities?

MS COLE: As you know, there is a regional manager

acting there on an acting basis. He has been acting for quite a few years now,

and I appreciate that. I think, whether it is filled on a permanent basis or on

an acting basis, it would still be the same level of service that is provided.

MS JONES: I sense that at this particular time we

need to really look at the staffing in the office in terms of -

MS COLE: His municipal analyst position has not

been filled since he left it vacant, and that may be the one that we need to

look at filling.

MS JONES: I just want to leave that with you guys,

as a suggestion, to do that over the next little while.

MS COLE: Sure.

MS JONES: The other thing that I want to make

comment on is in housing. Ms Marshall is here. I want to say thank you to her

publicly because she has been a tremendous help to me in a number of issues in

my district, some that I thought there was no way to get around but thankfully

we did get around them.

In the last year, I have certainly found a lot of

changes with regard to the number of calls I get on housing. It seems that some

of the policies that have been changed have allowed people who actually need the

services the most to get them in a quicker response time. I do not have to go

back very far to see the calls that we would have gotten with regard to the wait

list. It seems like it has almost been eliminated, and people are very much

satisfied with the response time from Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. My

experience with it is that people who really need urgent responses and urgent

services are getting them. I think that was the whole purpose of the program

from the beginning, and I am glad to see that it is starting to work for the

people who need it most. I commend you on a job well done.

Thank you. Those are my comments.

MR. LANGDON: If I just can respond to that for one

moment, I think it also speaks well for the people in the regional offices as

well, who you can access and be able to work with them. There is no doubt about

it, that Mary and Liz will continue to work with the regional offices and with

the members so that we can even improve on what we already have. You are right,

there have been major changes and I think that it is a benefit for the clients

for whom the service was first originated.

MS JONES: Minister, I tell you, there is a

fabulous crowd in that office in Labrador as well. I know they have a big

caseload with all of Northern Labrador, and there are a lot of housing issues

there, but they have done a tremendous job and get out to all the communities.

As you know, it is very hard to get out to those communities, because you have

to fly in and out, but they are doing a good job. In terms of passing along

compliments, I had to make note of it today.

Thank you.

MR. LANGDON: Good.

CHAIR: Mr. Mercer.

MR. MERCER: No questions.

CHAIR: Mr. Sweeney.

MR. SWEENEY: Just a couple of quick comments.

Minister, I have to say that I am delighted to see the

changes made in the infrastructure program this year. Mary, don't faint when I

say this, but I must say I am pleased with the direction in which we are going

with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, because you know how I felt for so long.

I must say that the number of calls - they haven't

stopped, I will say that - are decreasing. They are getting fewer. Whatever

direction we are going in here, let's keep going.

Thanks.

CHAIR: I will make a quick comment. Under the Fire

Protection, Municipal Fire Services, I would just like to make one comment. If

at all possible, Minister - and I don't ask you or the staff to respond - if

there is some way that we can get the Fire Commissioner's Office, even the

funding or in some way the building, to do a bit more training in rural

Newfoundland, out on the West Coast, because it is a big issue out our way. It

is something that is always brought up to me. It is not critical but they would

just like to see more in-service.

MS COLE: I would like to make a comment on that.

In defense of the Fire Commissioner's Office, we have had numerous incidents in

the past where they will do up a training

schedule and it will be sent out. They

will actually have people register for it and then go to those areas to carry

out the training and find that, if they have fifteen or sixteen people

registered, there may be two show up. It gets very frustrating for them also,

from the Fire Commissioner's Office side, so I think it needs to work both ways.

I think part of it, too, is that it is difficult for

the firefighters to come out because they are volunteers and they need to take

time off work in a lot of cases, but they try to

schedule them for weekends.

What happens then is: if they get a good weekend for moose hunting, or for

whatever else comes up, then they don't show up for the training. That gets to

be a bit frustrating.

CHAIR: Well, however we can do it - it is not

being critical. The volunteer firefighters that I deal with are not critical of

the Fire Commissioner's Office in any way. They are very supportive.

Just on a personal note, in my dealings with the

department and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing for the last twelve years,

Minister, as my colleagues mentioned, the change to the infrastructure program,

I think it is great. It is great news to the municipalities, it is great news to

the Province, and it is great news to the people who are without water and

sewerage as the basic necessities.

To the staff I have been dealing with for twelve

years, I thank you. I know the regional staff in Corner Brook - Tom Dunphy, whom

I deal with - and the local municipalities give nothing but excellent service.

The door is always open and there are just no complaints whatsoever out our way.

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, Mary and Liz, I

have been involved with that for many years. I can guarantee that there are a

lot more success stories and a lot more help than there is criticism. I have

been one who has been brought forward and I was told sometimes that I am not

aggressive enough, that I don't push my view, but I may change. Who knows?

On behalf of the constituents and the people I have

been dealing with - for nine years I was dealing with the people from St.

Anthony to Port aux Basques and into Baie Verte. I can assure you, there are a

lot. I am very confident in saying that 98 per cent of people are saying: We may

not get what we want, but we get the services that we get from you department.

To all the staff, personally I thank you, and thank

you on behalf of the constituents that I deal with. All I can say is that rural

Newfoundland needs a strong Municipal and Provincial Affairs Department, and I

think we have one.

Thank you very much.

Before we go, we will ask for the subhead.

CLERK: Subheads 1.1.01. through 4.2.01.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 4.2.01., carried.

On motion, Department of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs, total heads, carried.

CLERK: Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Corporation, subhead 1.1.01.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01., carried.

On motion, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Corporation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: I would like a motion to accept the minutes

of the meeting of April 4, 2001.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister, and thank you, staff.

Again, it has been a pleasure.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.