Newfoundland and Labrador Hansard — Statements by Ministers; Oral Questions — 24 March 1999 (44th General Assembly, 1st Session, Vol. XLIV No. 6)
1999-03-24
Newfoundland and Labrador — Debates (Hansard)
March 24, 1999 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 6
The House met at 2:00 p.m.
MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!
Statements by Ministers
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial
Affairs.
MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to inform hon. members of an agreement reached again this
year between the Department of Works, Services and Transportation and the State of North
Carolina for the use of two CL-215 water bombers owned by the Province.
The two provincial aircraft have been contracted to North Carolina for
a sixty-day period. The aircraft will be used on standby for fighting forest fires in that
state.
The Province will receive a fixed daily standby rate for each aircraft,
in addition to an operated rate for each hour flown. The net revenue from this contract
will be a minimum, after expenses, of $252,000 U.S. dollars for the Province. The first
aircraft was deployed on March 15 and the second left for North Carolina on March 19.
Mr. Speaker, this is a period in the year when these aircraft are not
in use by the Province. Both aircraft will be back in Newfoundland and Labrador by the end
of May for use here. This is the third time the Province has entered into a contract with
the State of North Carolina for the use of water bombers, the first being in 1993 when we
contracted one aircraft, and the second was in 1998 when we sent two aircraft.
This is a significant revenue generating practice for the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador.
Mr. Speaker, we will continue to find ways to utilize our equipment and
our resources to the full advantage of the people of the Province.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.
MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
I thank the minister for his statement. I am glad to see that they are
going to utilize the equipment, of course, and make a few extra dollars for the Province.
Hopefully it will be well spent, maybe in our health care system. We are glad to see that
it is utilized, but the main thing is that these bombers are available in Newfoundland
when needed in this Province.
Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We did not have an advance copy of the statement of the minister. We
thought there were no statements because they ran out of good news the day before the
Budget. Certainly we would have expected a Ministerial Statement on the state of the
health care system.
This is certainly a positive thing, something that we have done every
year, and there is no reason we should not continue it.
Oral Questions
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My question today is for the President of Treasury Board. Obviously the
government's late night negotiations - ongoing negotiations that went into the wee hours
of the morning - with the Province's nurses failed to precipitate an agreement and the
nurses have chosen to strike.
We realize there was a blackout on information about negotiations prior
to the strike, but now the strike itself has become a reality and the situation obviously
has changed.
The people of the Province are now demanding answers about what was on
the table, what the problem areas were, what options were considered, and why the
government was unable to achieve a resolution to avoid such a significant strike which has
obvious and severe consequences for all.
It appeared, late in the negotiations and in the early hours, there was
a glimmer of hope that a resolution was possible. I would like to ask: Why was there no
resolution? What issues blocked the way? What offers did the government make to try and
remove that blockage?
If the President of the Treasury Board could answer, please, we would
appreciate it.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond to the Leader of
the Opposition's question today.
As you know, we did have a marathon session last night. In fact, it
involved the personal guidance and attention of the Premier, the Minister of Health, and
myself. It was an around-the-clock bargaining session, in fact, right up from March 16,
last Tuesday, until last night and early this morning.
I am unable to respond and give you the details of what actually
occurred. Later this afternoon we will be making a formal press release on that matter; we
will have a formal press conference.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say at this time that we
are currently monitoring the situation, we are doing an assessment, and at a later time
this afternoon we will make our formal position known.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: The place to make a statement is in the House of
Assembly, I say to the President of Treasury Board, right here!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: Public statements outside that precipitate and cause
debate not to occur. You should be standing in your place today, making a statement about
the strike and why it happened.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: After a week-long blackout, which we understood - we
understand that you cannot negotiate, but the water on the beans has changed. Nurses are
on the street today. After a one-week blackout about the talks, and after those efforts
have so clearly failed, it is now time for openness and accountability in this
Legislature. The health care system belongs to all of us.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his
question.
MR. E. BYRNE: You are their government and you owe them an
explanation, so let's hear the explanation, I say to the President of Treasury Board. What
issues stood in the way of a resolution? How did you seek to address those issues to
prevent something none of us wanted to see, namely a nurses strike?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, what I will say to the Leader of the
Opposition today is his tune has changed. Last week he said here in this House of Assembly
that the bargaining should be done at the bargaining table, privately.
I say to the Leader of the Opposition today that the lines of
communication are still open. In fact, as we speak today, nurses and government are
continuing to be at the bargaining table. I will tell you, and tell this House today, that
once people are rested up - and I would be one of them; this is my thirty-first hour of
being on my feet - I will tell you that in the morning talks will resume again.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Let me ask the President of Treasury Board this. Why
is it that she can later on this afternoon update the public on what is happening but she
will not stand in the people's House to update the public right here? That is the question
that you must answer today, Minister.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, what I will say at this point to this hon.
House is the fact that right now we are meeting with the health care boards and we are
assessing our situation with regards to our contingency plans. Until all those plans are
in order we will not be releasing a statement.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: What will change between 2:10 p.m., 3:00 p.m., or
3:30 p.m. that you will not release a statement in this House on what is taking place?
Clearly, Minister, negotiations have broken down. Nurses are on the street; the public
want answers. Why will you not update this House right now on what the situation is?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, we are concerned about the health of our
people here in this Province.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS THISTLE: We are concerned about patient safety. For that reason
we will ensure that everything is in order before we make a public statement.
I would have to say to the Leader of the Opposition and this hon. House
that the people who need health care services will still receive health care services, and
that is why we are ensuring that our plans are in full order today. Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, again I have to emphasize that
negotiations have broken down, the strike is on, nurses are on the street, the public want
answers, they want them from the government, they want them from you, as President of
Treasury Board.
We know that one of the key issues of concern for nurses for years is
the government's increasing reliance on casual nurses. Casual nurses are in a much more
vulnerable position than nurses offered full- or part-time positions, as you should know.
What are you going to do to address this concern, to turn casual positions into actual
nursing jobs? Was that one of the issues? Can you tell us what government's tangible offer
was to the bargaining agent, the nurses' union, with respect to the issue of
casualization?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, once again I must say that we will not be
negotiating here in the public. The concerns that the nurses have brought to us at the
bargaining table have been addressed, are being continued to be addressed, and they will
be addressed further in the morning.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: So in reality, one of the most pressing public issues
that will come to this Legislature, a strike in the health care system by over 10,000
nurses, and the President of Treasury Board, if I get it right, believes she does not have
to update the House of Assembly? Is that what is happening here? Let me ask you this
minister. Nurses' workloads -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: There is no answer, I say to the ministers opposite,
none whatsoever. Workloads have been increasing steadily for many years, in light of
government's failure to put enough money into the system to maintain sufficient nurses to
do the jobs required of them. Nurses have too many patients to attend to. They are doing
alone the work that once two people did. Nurses are getting injured. Patients are
suffering.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his
question.
MR. E. BYRNE: The question to the President of Treasury Board is
this. Is it on the table that you will hire more nurses so they can do the jobs they are
trained to do and desperately want to do for their patients? If that was on the table,
what was government's offer?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, once again I must say to this hon. House
that we are still negotiating with nurses. Government is willing to work with nurses. We
are willing to find a resolution that is suitable to nurses and to government, and we will
resume our negotiations again in the morning.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Unbelievable. Again, the nurses are on strike. We respected the
blackout as an Opposition. We understand government could not negotiate in public. Today
negotiations have broken down. The time for answers is right here, right now.
Let me ask the President of Treasury Board another question.
Recruitment and retention is a huge problem with respect to nurses, as it is with respect
to physicians. Nurses are leaving the Province and the country in huge numbers because
there is nothing here for them but casualization, overwork, stress, burnout if they can
get the work at all, I say the President of Treasury Board. When is government going to do
something to give our graduating and already graduated nurses jobs in our provincial
health care system when there is such a demand for those services?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, as unusual as it may appear to the hon.
House here today, negotiations are still taking place as we speak. We are still willing
and wanting to address the concerns of nurses. Many of them have already been laid on the
table, and in fact I am sure we will see more in the coming days. What I would say to this
hon. House at this time is we are still willing to negotiate and we will, and look forward
to finding a deal that will suit both parties.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the question I just asked was separate
from negotiations, it was on the general issue on recruitment and retention. I will ask it
again. It has nothing to do with negotiations unless you have it on the table. This is a
general health care question that you should be in the position to answer today and not
fluff off on some press conference that you are going to hold in an hour or so.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. member to get to his question.
MR. E. BYRNE: Recruitment and retention is a huge problem. I will
ask the same question. When is government going to do something to give graduating and
already graduated nurses jobs in our Province's health care system when there is such a
demand for those services?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, how long does it take for the message to
get through to the Leader of the Opposition? Negotiations are ongoing, they are not final.
The door is open, we are at the table, we are listening, we are observing, there is
dialogue, there is communication and there could be a settlement, there could be a final
draft. Who knows? We are willing to go to the table and we are willing to talk to nurses
and we are willing to find a solution.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I take exception to the remark made by
the Member for Bonavista North. What every member on this side of the House wants is a
solution, I say to the Member for Bonavista North!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: What every member on this side wants is what is best
for the health care system in this Province! I'm not going to stand and take that sort of
nonsense from the Member for Bonavista North, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: One final question for the President of Treasury
Board. More than ever before our hospitals are becoming acute care facilities with high
patient turnover as hospital stays decrease and long-term patients are shifted elsewhere
or sent immediately home after surgery. This shift to acute care places more and different
demands on our nurses and health care workers in general, yet the government has not given
health care workers and nurses the resources to cope with this shift that has occurred
over the last three years.
I will ask you this question. When are you going to start taking a
holistic approach in your efforts to restructure the health care system? When are you
going to realize that changing the nature of a facility may bring with it the need for
more nurses and health care workers, or for changes with the responsibilities that come
with it, Minister?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I have to say to this hon. House that
health care is the top priority of this government regardless of the present situation
that is facing us today. Health care is still the top priority. The situation with the
nurses does not change that situation with us, and we will deal with it effectively as
always.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My questions today are to the Minister of Health or acting Minister of
Health. I am a little appalled by a statement by the President of Treasury Board here
today to say that she will have a public statement when safety is in order. That was her
statement here today. I am surprised that the safety of people in our institutions today
is not in order according to the President of Treasury Board.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SULLIVAN: Our health care system -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: The record of Hansard will show -
MR. TULK: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
On a point of order, the hon. the Member for Bonavista North.
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.
It is one thing for the Member for Ferryland, the Opposition House
Leader, to come into this House and make a statement, and that is his privilege and he
should; but I say to him that he should be accurate about what the President of Treasury
Board said. She said no such nonsense.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
No point of order.
The hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I will let the record of Hansard speak for itself when you read it
tomorrow.
Our health care system, I say to the minister, acting minister,
Premier, or whoever wants to answer the question, is in shambles and is running out of
control in our Province, with little or no accountability in almost every single facet of
our health care system. Health Labrador Corporation, according to the Auditor General,
does not produce complete and accurate financial information, and these audits are
completed up to twelve to fifteen months after they are due.
Similar problems we know have been encountered with other boards across
this Province, in particular with the Western Health Care Corporation. In fact, the
Corporation's financial statements were not received for almost up to three years in our
Province. I know the Budget provides $6 million -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. member to get to his question.
MR. SULLIVAN: I ask the minister this. In light of the fact that
the Budget provides $6 million for Meditech software and related infrastructure for just
three boards, I want to know what this government is going to do to ensure that the proper
monitoring procedures and accountability are in place? When is she going to put those
accountability measures in place on her appointed boards, and when can we expect
legislation to entrench this?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and
Employment.
MS BETTNEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. As was indicated in the Budget Speech
earlier in the week, as part of the investment in our health care system, both through
investing in writing off the debt of the boards pre-1998 and also on the investment in the
operations and subsequent investments, there was also a companion piece to that which was
to establish and improve the accountability framework for the various boards with the
Department of Health. That is part of the intention of the department and that is what
will be worked through between the minister and the health care boards over the coming
months.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Intentions do not solve anything, I say to the minister. They solve
absolutely nothing.
There are millions of dollars wasted in our system today; scarce
resources, I might add, very scarce resources, that should be used to improve the health
of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.
In Quebec, hospitals must sign agreements that stimulate performance
objectives. They have to stipulate performance objectives of hospitals in access of
services there, and they must have a balanced budget and a financial plan to be presented
to the ministry of that province.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his
question.
MR. SULLIVAN: I ask this, Minister: When will this Province move to
put into place accountability measures that are going to enable hospitals to put forth
performances reports before they are given funding entrusted to them to care for the
people in our Province?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and
Employment.
MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I can be permitted to
just restated and quote directly from the Budget Speech which was made by the Minister of
Finance earlier in the week. Certainly what the minister said at that time was that we are
putting in place a new accountability framework for all boards and agencies, and that the
departments will take greater responsibility for monitoring the performance of boards in
providing feedback to them.
We are going to work and look for the advice from the boards on how
best to put those processes in place, and that action will be starting immediately.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Other provinces across this country are starting to realize that
efficiency must be achieved in the administration and delivery of health care. Alberta,
for example, has established a health innovation fund to encourage innovation and
improvement in the management and delivery of services.
Our own minister in this Province set up the Newfoundland and Labrador
Centre for Health Information. In November, they wrote the minister asking for funds to
start a network to put in place to see that health care professions can access information
to have an efficient management and delivery of that system. In fact, it would pay for
itself and start reaping dividends within five years, and there has been no funding to do
it. -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. member to get to his question.
MR. SULLIVAN: I ask the minister, when are you going to stop paying
lip service to this? When are you going to do something, and give this Centre for Health
Information the tools to do the job and get efficiency back in health care in our
Province?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and
Employment.
MS BETTNEY: Again, Mr. Speaker, I can only conclude that the hon.
member perhaps missed the Budget Speech earlier in the week.
Again, one of the key points in the Budget Speech that related to
health and community services was not only the additional $21 million that we are
providing for hospital equipment, but it also includes $6 million to cover the cost of
ensuring that the boards have a common financial system in order to provide accurate and
timely financial information. This is the basis of being able to provide good information
management. Those fundamentals have to be in place.
We are going to be working on the accountability processes and working
in consultations with the boards to design the kind of systems that need to be concluded.
Mr. Speaker, I can only say that we are working diligently to improve
on this.
MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House
Leader.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I will ask one final question. The Atkinson report was completed on the
state of western health care, and has been in the hands of the government for months and
months. They have been putting us off for a year-and-a-half. It is in their hands. Why
won't you release it? Are you afraid of what it says, on how inefficiently the minister
and her department have been looking after health care in our Province?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and
Employment.
MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, the report is being reviewed and assessed
by the department, and it will be released when the minister is prepared to make her
comments on the report and has done a full assessment.
The important thing with an issue like this, and the important thing in
receiving a report like this, is to be sure that you have full information. That is
happening. The assessment is taking place and, in due course, the minister will report on
it.
MR. SPEAKER: The. hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My question is for the Acting Minister of Health, or the Acting
Premier, or whoever.
The Agnes Pratt Home has been without full-level doctor care now for
over a year. Last year we saw Alzheimer and Level III residents being taken to emergency
rooms at the hospital, sometimes by ambulance, because there was no doctor available. We
now have doctors visit after regular hours and, while this is designed as an interim
measure, it is not good enough. Now that the nurses are on strike, we see the level of
health care ever further diminished.
I ask the acting minister: When are we going to solve the crisis at the
Agnes Pratt Home and restore the doctor care that the residents deserve, and ease the
minds of the residents and their families?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and
Employment.
MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, the department and the minister are doing
everything within their power to try and address the issue with respect to the
availability of resources in this area. Again, I point to a key item in our Budget, which
was surrounding physician recruitment.
We have allocated in this year's Budget, $4.1 million provided to
recruit a further thirty-five salaried positions. This is a significant step. It is a
major response by this government.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's
South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The health care system in this Province is in chaos, and it is the
fault of the Administration across the floor.
How many other health care and long-term care homes in this Province
are without the proper care of doctors? What measures are government going to put in place
at the Agnes Pratt Home to ensure that they have proper doctor care, most especially now
that the nurses are on strike?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and
Employment.
MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, essential service agreements are in place
surrounding the current disagreement. I would have to say, in addition to that, that the
department is working very closely with the boards on this issue in a general sense, as it
has been for any number of months.
We know that not only here in this Province but right across the
country there is an issue with respect to the shortage of physicians. This government is
doing everything that it can to try and address this issue on behalf of the Province.
There are many facets to it; some of them are involving salaried
physicians and some of them are involving fee-for-service physicians. Certainly the
government is in consultation and in discussion with the boards on an ongoing basis to try
and resolve this issue and to do what is best for the system.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's
South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
A final questions for the minister: First of all, what are we going to
put in place while the nurses are on strike to ensure doctor care at the nursing home,
because the care at that home is now being further compromised?
Secondly, are you telling this House today that we are going to put
salaried physicians at the Agnes Pratt Home to finally solve the crisis that is taking
place there?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and
Employment.
MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is that the minister, at
this time, and government officials, are getting thoroughly briefed on all of the existing
contingencies with respect to the labour situation at this time as it affects the hospital
and the nursing home system, the health care system in general. That information will be
provided as soon as it is available.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.
MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My questions are for the President of Treasury Board. Madam minister,
recruiters from Saskatchewan, Ottawa, and recruiters from other Atlantic Provinces are
actively and aggressively offering our nursing graduates and other nursing professionals
full-time employment in their respective professions. Why is your government failing in
your responsibilities to offer our nursing graduates satisfactory employment right here in
Newfoundland and Labrador?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I believe this government is addressing
the nursing shortage in this Province, maybe not to the ability that we would like to have
it addressed but we are doing our best based on our financial ability to address that
situation. Many of these concerns are items that are presently before the bargaining
table. Rather than jeopardize any of the talks, I will not say anything further on that
matter.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Waterford
Valley.
MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Madam minister, more than forty Newfoundland nurses work in Phoenix,
Arizona alone. Only one graduate in 270 that graduated in 1997 has found permanent
employment in Newfoundland and Labrador. That is not good enough, Madam minister. Other
jurisdictions offer sign-on bonuses, help with student loan debts, assistance to find
housing, et cetera. What, I ask the minister, are you doing to offer our nursing graduates
employment here at home in their Province where they grew and where they would like to
work?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, in response to the hon. member's question
I would ask him to think back to a couple of days ago when this government announced in
our Budget our commitment to health care in this Province.
Many of the highlights of that Budget are now before us. One of the
highlights was the pay off of debt of our hospital boards of $40 million. By doing this,
this will enable hospital boards to hire more nurses of the future.
We would like to have more nurses back here. We understand that many of
our nurses are around the country, but when you look at the fiscal reality of our Province
we are doing our best to retain nurses and to attract nurses.
I would also draw the member's attention to our commitment in this
Province to build new hospitals and long-term health care facilities. By doing so we are
putting better infrastructure in place, and as a result we are enhancing the working
capabilities of nurses and hospital staff throughout the Province.
Mr. Speaker, I would have to say that we are doing the best within our
financial abilities to attract and retain nurses, and also to provide a good health care
system in this Province.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Waterford
Valley.
MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
New nursing graduates in Ontario received $18 to $20 an hour. In Nova
Scotia the rate is approximately $21 an hour. In the U.S. they can make as much as $32
U.S. an hour. In Newfoundland and Labrador we offer new graduates $14.71 per hour. What
are you waiting for, Madame Minister, until all of our graduates have left? When are you
going to do something to keep our graduates right here in Newfoundland and Labrador, where
they can do their best job, stay at home, do the work they were trained for, and do it
right here?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, in response to the Member for Waterford
Valley I would have to say to him, look at the Budget that was presented on Monday.
When you look at the $21 million that was provided for hospital
equipment, $15 million in additional funding for board budgets, I say to the member what
does that do? That increases the capabilities of boards around this Province to hire new
people, to provide better service. Look at our commitment to education in this Province.
One hundred and twenty-five million dollars invested in school construction and upgrades.
Even our declining enrolments in our schools; instead of taking 418 teaching units out of
the system we put 236 units back.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) nurses?
MS THISTLE: That has a lot to do with nurses. Education and health
care go hand in hand. In fact, this Province will have the best pupil-teacher ratio in the
country.
I would have to say to hon. members in this House that when you look at
the Budget that was presented here on Monday, and we had a $4.3 million surplus, that says
a lot about this government and how we are performing. Look at the announcement that was
on your desk when you came in here on Monday.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. minister to conclude her answers quickly.
MS THISTLE: Newfoundland, solid as a rock.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MS THISTLE: When you have investment houses like Nesbitt Burns
endorsing our Province that says a lot for this government. We are headed in the right
direction.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.
Petitions
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.
MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to present a petition to the hon. House of Assembly. It
reads as follows:
We, the undersigned, are nursing students at the Centre for Nursing
Studies. We would like to convey our support to the nurses of Newfoundland and Labrador in
their fight for increased permanent positions, better workloads, and higher wages.
We would also like to bring to government's attention that if these
conditions are not changed by the time we graduate we will have no choice but to leave
this Province, our home, to obtain work where conditions will allow us to support our
families to pay back our outrageous student debt.
Mr. Speaker, the petition is signed by 208 nursing students and their
families.
Earlier today these nursing students came here to this Legislature, to
the lobby of the House of Assembly, and they presented the petition to the Opposition. We
are pleased to raise their voice here today.
They tell us that it is not good enough that, in 1977, 270 students
graduated in this Province from nursing school. Only one student - put that as a
percentage and you have got a very low employment percentage - in 270 of the graduates was
able to find permanent employment in Newfoundland and Labrador.
We know that on this very weekend, two or three days from now,
recruiters are coming here. They will be located in the hotels here in St. John's. They
are here to recruit nursing graduates. They are here to say to them: We want you to come
to work in our province. We want you to come to work in our hospital system. We are going
to offer you attractive employment opportunities. We are going to assist you to move from
Newfoundland and Labrador.
These are our young people, these are our graduates, these are the
people who went to our school system. We need them in our hospitals and we need them now.
We know what is happening in Newfoundland and Labrador. It is not good
enough that we are out there training our young people, then saying to them: Sorry folks,
we will employ one of you in a permanent job, one out of 270. That is not good enough.
We also bring to the attention of the House of Assembly the commitment
made on the eve of the election by the Premier of this Province to the nurses of this
Province when he gave them a comfort note. He said: We are listening to what nurses are
saying, we have heard what you have said to us, we want to dialogue with you, we want you
to know about our commitment to you.
Today when we have the nurses of this Province out on strike, this is
the day when the Premier should be delivering on his commitments made during the election
and on the night of the speech at the hotel in St. John's.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the Premier made it quite clear that he
was going to hire more nurses. He said that he understood their problems.
Talk to the people who are graduating today, listen to what they have
to say. I talked to a nurse this morning in Clarenville who said to me: Last night we had
twenty-six emergencies in a hospital in Clarenville, my night last night was a night in
hell. Those were her very words to me today. That is what is happening out there.
We want this government to start listening to the nursing students of
this Province, listening to the health care professionals. Because I can tell you now that
what that nurse endured last night in Clarenville is becoming more typical. There is a
crisis in this Province and this government is not listening. They gave their word. Their
word failed. They talked the talk, but when it comes to walking the walk they certainly
are not doing the job.
We say to the government: Deliver on your promises, don't say it if you
don't mean it. Don't mislead all of these people.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. H. HODDER: Don't go out there and say something on the eve of
the election in order to gain votes if you are not going to put it into positive action
after the election is done.
Mr. Speaker, nurses have been misled, misled in a very direct way. We
say: Shame on the government. However, we want to say to you that now is the time for you
to do something about it. Show the nurses of this Province that you are serious, try to do
what you can to keep nurses in Newfoundland and Labrador, and try to rescue our health
care system from the crisis it is in today.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Yes, I say, it is shameful; there were 270 graduates and one got a
permanent job here in our Province.
We heard a Budget here this week that did not make any mention of this
government hiring new nurses, none whatsoever, and to say that at a negotiating table. If
this Province has to sit down to a negotiate (inaudible) need more nurses in this
Province, there is something wrong with this government. There is something wrong.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SULLIVAN: If they want to negotiate extra positions over and
above - he said earlier around 175 positions; seventy-five or so full time and 100
part-time positions. Nothing was announced when we should have automatically, in a sign of
good faith in this Budget, announced several hundred new nurses in this Province because
it is badly needed.
I worked in a hospital. For thirteen months I worked in a hospital, but
it was years ago, back in my university days. I worked there from May to September and I
know a little bit about what went on in hospitals then and I know, as well as everybody
else in this House knows, what it was like last week, last month and last year. They know
when they have families in hospital.
I visit the hospital fairly regularly to visit sick people, family
members, people from the district, and the horror stories I am hearing in there are
unbelievable. I have heard enough in the last two years to write a 1,000 page book. I am
accused of fearmongering, and all these things, when I tell those types of things. The
member if fearmongering. That is what we hear out of the minister.
It is pathetic the way we have let our system drop in this Province in
the last ten years. We have ignored the health care concerns. Not only that, but we have
allowed inefficiencies in the system to creep in and the only way we address it is by
laying off people. We have not gotten to the core of the problem in our health care
system, and that is to fix the underlying cause of the problem. We have not done it.
This Budget did not move to address the underlying cause of millions of
dollars. Maclean's Magazine said 40 per cent of the dollars spent in this country,
out of over $70 billion, is inefficiently spent; that is $30 billion. In this Province
that would equate to $400 million. Well let's be generous and give it $200 million. What
can $200 million do to put more nurses back?
Every patient today in a hospital is an acute care patient. The level
of acuity is nothing compared to what it used to be. A person would walk into a hospital
and spend two weeks in there before their surgery, weeks there after surgery. There were
twenty and twenty-four on wards in hospitals, with numerous staff to look after them when
there were only probably four or five who needed that high level of attention on an
ongoing basis. Today it is almost everyone.
We have allowed our system to become so inefficient - and the minister
tells me, here in this House, that we have enough long-term care beds. I say: Why do you
have almost 100 people here in the City of St. John's occupying long-term care beds, beds
in acute care hospitals, who are medically discharged and cannot get into a nursing home
because there is no room? They won't give them home care. Someone has to die in order for
someone else to get home care, and be able to put in more funding.
This system is wrong. It has to be fixed. Nurses are going out of this
Province. They have committed to go to the United States when they are finished. They are
going all over the country. They can get 50 per cent more starting in Nova Scotia. Nova
Scotia, here we come! That will be the cry. U.S., Texas, and down in Florida. I speak to
people on an ongoing basis and there is no effort made by the Province to recognize that.
Forcing people, casualization, calling them in the morning to come into
work and then sending them home after a few hours: We don't need you. They call you back -
going around with beepers and cellphones to get a call. If you don't go in, you are at the
bottom of the list and you can't get back up on the list again. You are discriminated
against.
You cannot get a mortgage. You cannot buy a home. You are working forty
hours a week - thirty-seven-and-a-half, whatever the regular shift is - for years and
years and cannot get permanent. I spoke to a gentleman who has been working twenty-four
years in the health care system in this city, who is still not permanent. People are
working fifty and sixty hours some weeks and they are still not permanent.
Casualization is going to be the downfall of stability in our health
care system and we are seeing it every day on the floors of hospitals here.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, hear!
MR. SULLIVAN: I raised an issue in the House one day and the
minister said I was fearmongering the system. I got a call that evening from a medical
professional - I will not identify the type - who said: The day you raised the question,
you should have come into the Health Sciences Centre that evening. We had ten people on
stretchers in the corridor, besides the rooms full, and twenty-five we had not yet seen in
that very same evening. That is happening. I was stopped by five or six people. As I went
from a room on the floor of the hospital, before I got to the exit they recognized me and
called me aside and told me stories. That is what is happening.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. SULLIVAN: By leave, Mr. Speaker?
MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?
AN HON. MEMBER: No leave, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: No leave.
MR. SULLIVAN: He does not want to hear it, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am pleased to pass along a few comments with respect in reply to this
particular petition which we take very seriously. Last year on behalf of this particular
government I had a great privilege actually of cheering a health care forum at the
Littledale Conference Centre here in St. John's.
The nurses themselves might be very pleased to know that everybody
involved in that forum - not only nurses, but all the other health care workers, the
public representatives and everybody else - agreed that one of the key issues that needed
to be addressed in health care in our hospitals was casualization with nurses. It is being
finalized at the bargaining table as we speak. The Opposition does not seem to understand,
because they have never experienced this.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. GRIMES: Every time the Opposition was the government and there
was a strike, negotiations ceased. The strange thing that is occurring this time is that
while there is a strike that started this morning, there are still discussions proceeding.
They would not understand that because it never occurred when they were the government.
That was not the way they operated, but that is the way it is happening this time because
we want a resolution at the earliest possible opportunity. We did not wait for this
negotiation to begin addressing the issue of casualization.
As the Chair of the committee, I came back with the support of all of
the Cabinet and all of the caucus, and in January of this year past, a few months ago - as
a matter of fact in the last three months - over 100 positions in the St. John's health
care system alone have been converted from casualization to permanent status, even while
the negotiations were proceeding. It was not a matter of signing it in the agreement. It
was being done because it was recognized as the right thing to do.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, there are three issues that were addressed
- you talk about people who do not want to listen because they just want to play some
games - three issues addressed in the petition; permanent positions.
When the president of the nurses' union - because I understand she has
not yet told her members what was discussed last night and why they are on strike. I
understand they have not had information meetings yet to explain how close they came or
did not come, and what issues. The President of the Treasury Board is not about to make
matters worse on behalf of the government, in trying to get a resolution, by discussing it
publicly here at a very, very sensitive time.
Permanent positions are being addressed, have been addressed, and will
be addressed. The whole notion of having more positions converted from casual to permanent
has been on the bargaining table, is already being actioned, and more of it was offered
and more of it will be done when this whole dispute is resolved.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. GRIMES: That was the second issue that was in the petition.
There will be more permanent positions, what the petitioners rightfully asked for. There
will be more positions converted from casual to full-time permanent positions. It is
already happening. We are not waiting for the outcome of the negotiations. Over 100 - as a
matter of fact 125 positions - have already been converted in the last few months, and
more to be done, and higher salaries. Nurses will have higher salaries. Everybody in the
Province will have higher salaries.
Just give me a minute to refer to a couple of issues that the nurses
are using in their campaign. One is mentioned here today. I am told, and I do not know it
to be a fact, the campaign says only one of the 200-and-something graduates got a
permanent full-time job.
When we met with the chair of the health care boards from all over the
Province, they told us that was not true. I do not know it to be true, but they were
really surprised and disappointed that would be used in a campaign because they did not
believe it to be true. That is an issue for speeches and rhetoric; it is not going to
solve the problem.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. GRIMES: The other issue that is in the campaign is the notion
of nurses being the lowest paid in the country. Acknowledge, Mr. Speaker, I used to lead
the teachers' union. Every professional designation in Newfoundland and Labrador is the
lowest paid in the country, largely because of the ability to pay. That government, when
it was there for seventeen years, had these professional designations as the lowest paid
in the country. I was there; I was part of it. It is all part, as well, of the Province we
live in, the ability to pay and the cost of living. The fact of the matter is, you can
live a lot better on $40,000 in St. John's, Newfoundland, than you can in Toronto, Ontario
or even in Winnipeg, Saskatoon, or Vancouver. These issues, while they are there and are
good for making speeches, and are good for making a point, do not solve the problem.
The government is committed to being fair to nurses, and to making sure
we can do the maximum possible on every front, to not only treat nurses fairly - because
they do such a great job for us -, but all of the health care system and all of the rest
of the public service, to the point that we have good stable health care in our
institutions, Mr. Speaker, and in our community health systems. Secondly -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. GRIMES: - that we make sure we can pay for all of it on a
sustained basis in the future. I appreciate the commentary -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. GRIMES: - in the petition. Each of the points in the petition
will be and has already been answered by the government.
Thank you very much.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.
MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am pleased to continue with this theme today, and present a petition
to the hon. House of Assembly:
We, the undersigned, are nursing students of the Centre for Nursing
Studies. We would like to convey our support of the nurses of Newfoundland and Labrador in
their fight for increased permanent positions, better workloads and higher wages.
We would also like to bring it to your attention that if these
conditions are not changed by the time we graduate, we will have no choice but to leave
this Province, our homes, to attain work where conditions will allow us to support our
families and to pay back our outrageous student debt.
Mr. Speaker, in many ways, for these students who are witnessing these
proceedings today, this is what it is about. We are talking about young, eager,
well-educated Newfoundlanders who want to make a contribution to their native home, to
their Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, where they can spend their lives with their
families and with their friends. What is happening in the profession which they have
chosen, by necessity they must leave the home in which they wish to stay and go for other
parts of the continent.
I heard stories this morning when I met with a number of these
students, both outside the Chamber and in our offices, that we have - and the number was
referred to earlier this afternoon - some forty Newfoundland graduates, for example, in
Phoenix, Arizona. We have, perhaps, a similar number in the state of Texas. I know of
several myself in the city of Houston. We have them in Colorado. We have them in British
Columbia.
We have forty-one graduating nursing students that will be graduating
from the Nursing Centre in a matter of weeks. The students told us that they, too, will
have to leave. Another forty-one young, well-educated, eager Newfoundlanders who want to
make a contribution to this Province, but, by necessity, are unable to do so.
That is the plight, that is the dilemma so many of our fellow
Newfoundlanders and Labradorians find themselves in. They must leave. They do not want to
leave; they must leave. Recruiters are actively doing their job from different cities,
from different hospitals, in both Canada and the United States, to entice our young
people, to entice our well-educated Newfoundlanders to leave the homes which they love for
destinations unknown.
Why? Because they cannot get a job. Why? Because this government has
done nothing to help them stay in our Province. Why? Because this government has done
nothing to deal with insurmountable student debt which strangles and cripples every single
young Newfoundlander and Labradorian.
I have children of my own who must leave Newfoundland, and I am sure
there are other members in this hon. House whose children, by necessity, must leave. Of
course, we all have family members, close friends - I mean, it is just automatic. We all
make an assumption, quite sadly, that we all have immediate family members and close
friends who are gone because they have to. Not because they want to, but because they have
to.
I know the hon. minister opposite will say: We have a tradition and a
history of Newfoundlanders leaving. This is different, I say. We have young, well-educated
Newfoundlanders who have been educated in this Province who want to stay here, an economy
that desperately needs them to stay here, but unfortunately they cannot stay here. This is
just a symptom. This is an example of what is happening in our Province today.
When I met with these young Newfoundlanders and Labradorians this
morning who were so enthusiastic, so dedicated to their career and to their profession,
who wanted to stay, so well-behaved, so orderly, so sincere, so honest, they said to us in
great sincerity and honesty: We are young Newfoundlanders, we want the opportunity to
stay. Please help us.
I say to members opposite, who have the opportunity to help, Mr.
Speaker, please help them.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Again, with respect to the petition that is continuing on, I appreciate
the opportunity to add a few comments to the remarks I made previously.
I want everyone to understand in this Legislature, because I believe
the elected members certainly do understand, that we take these issues, and this issue in
particular, extremely seriously. No one takes any joy at all in the fact that today, we
have now for just over a half a day, had our nurses withdraw services. I did notice this
morning the student nurses in training and so on who did march up the Parkway and present
petitions which are now being discussed here, and appreciate the seriousness with which
they present the issues.
Because the role of the Opposition, I suppose rightfully so - I have
never really understood it because I have never been there - is that the whole notion, I
guess, is that no matter what is happening they have to try to find the very worst of it
and accentuate that, and never, ever give credit for any parts of it that may actually be
operating well and efficiently.
The Opposition health critic, as an example, always talks about the
people that called him who are admittedly having some difficulty. We all understand that,
because they call us too. We are their members. We are their elected members and they call
us as well. He does not speak about the fact that people have unfortunately been stranded
and had a health care problem either outside of the country or even in another province in
Canada.
The last two that called me, for example, were constituents who have
gotten ill in New Brunswick and Ontario, and had both before that, because they had had
some illness, had experiences in our own health care system. They called me to say: Roger,
by the way, we understand there are pressures in our health care system, but I would
rather have been treated in Newfoundland and Labrador than in Ontario or New Brunswick.
Because they were convinced that, while there were stresses and strains in the system, our
health care workers, and particularly our nurses, work harder and care more for their
patients, and more about their patients, than people in other parts of the country where
they have been unfortunate enough to actually use the system.
The issues are serious, as I mentioned a year ago at the health care
forum. The Minister of Health has already indicated there will be a follow-up of that done
this year. I think it is announced for July. I am not sure now if it is April or July, but
it is sometime in the next few months. Because we recognized that while we did have a good
session last year, and while the key issue addressed was casualization last year, we are
confident we have already begun to address that issue in a serious, meaningful way and
that we will accomplish more of it when this round of bargaining successfully concludes,
as it inevitably will.
Some people today might think this a disaster. It is in the short-term
because we do not have our nurses on the job, but every dispute comes to a resolution. The
resolution of this will contain a further commitment to have more permanent positions;
already been offered at the bargaining table. Somebody who is in a position to say so at
the right time - primarily, I guess, the president of the union to her own members - will
explain what was offered and why they did not find it satisfactory.
The issue of casualization which this petition and these petitioners
ask about is addressed in serious, meaningful ways. Our number one priority, while it is
nice to talk about it, again the beneficiary of it from a job point of view will be these
graduates who will have a better chance than ever to have a job when we have more
permanent positions and more full-time positions created brand new and more casual ones
there.
The primary position, though, Mr. Speaker, is that we have understood -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. GRIMES: - we need more ability in the health care system to
meet the needs of the patients. That is what we are committed to do through this round of
bargaining.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. member to (inaudible).
Orders of the Day
Private Members' Day
MR. SPEAKER: It now being Wednesday, we will move to the Orders of
the Day.
It is Private Members' Day. I believe the resolution is the one put
forward by the hon. Member for Bonavista South.
The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to put forward a resolution that was read into the Orders
of the Day a few days ago. I am not going to read the resolution. The resolution is there
immediately take measures that will be effective in properly reducing and controlling the
harp seal population along our coast.
The second
WHEREAS to this particular resolution is to ask the
government of the day to put together a committee of this House that would take our
concerns, the concerns of our constituents, and especially the concerns of rural
Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, to the Government of Ottawa, 2000 miles away, where
decisions are being made that affect the lives of each and every one of us right here in
this Province.
The harp seal population has more than tripled since the imposition of
seal quotas back in 1971. The latest figures that we are hearing on the existing
population of the harp seal hunt is somewhere between 6 million and 7 million animals.
The harp seal herd is now at its highest level since the development of
a commercial seal hunt back in the 18th century. The stories that we hear sometimes are
taken very lightly. They roll over your head as somebody exaggerating what is happening to
our cod stocks, especially on the Northeast Coast.
A few weeks ago - I do not remember the exact date now - I did get a
call from some fishermen from my district who asked me if I would go with them to a
location in Bonavista Bay to look, firsthand, at the destruction of our codfish stocks
that is being caused by the harp seal herd.
The next day that we had planned to go out was a dirty day and it had
to be postponed one day. We went out, and we picked up a commercial diver with an
underwater camera to go out and take some pictures with us.
MR. SULLIVAN: Are they the ones you gave the minister?
MR. FITZGERALD: I have offered them to the minister, I say. The
minister will certainly get a copy. In fact, I have a copy of them right here that I will
pass along for everybody in the House to look at. They can see exactly what I am talking
about.
We went out with a camera and we took some pictures. When we arrived
there, while the diver was under the water taking pictures, we were on a wharf. All along
the wharf, with the wooden pilings that are attached to a wharf to keep the ice from going
in and forming into blocks, it was like looking at a gill net. Codfish that size, I say to
members opposite - mesh in the wharfs - hanging out through the wharf with part of the
stomach gone. From my understanding in talking to some cabin owners there, a few days
prior to that the blocks of the wharves were half full with codfish that had been driven
in there by the seals.
While we were there, a couple of cabin owners came by and talked about
them being in the area when this event happened. One cabin owner talked about hearing the
ruckus when he was in his cabin. He went out to look. There were about sixty seals in this
small area that we were in, that had the codfish driven ashore and were in the process of
eating the codfish. He talked about how they would rise to the surface, take a bite out of
the fish, flick it aside and go after another one.
I suppose the thing that disturbs me most of all is, here we are still
trying to convince supposedly intelligent people, the scientists of the world - or some
scientists of the world; I would not put them all in the one category - still trying to
convince some scientists that seals eat codfish.
What we are looking at, if we do not soon react to the immediate
problem that is being caused to not only cod stocks, I say to members of the House -
salmon stocks, caplin, herring, and mackerel - what we are looking at is almost the
destruction of an ecosystem by allowing the harp seal herd to increase to the numbers that
we presently find.
Mr. Speaker, I have read this report that the provincial minister had
done by Mr. George Winter, a renowned scientist. As far as I am concerned, it is a good
report. It puts forward and it kind of confirms what a lot of other people out there today
are saying. He looked at several questions that were put forward by the minister, and I
totally agree with some of the suggestions and some of the numbers that he is using in
this particular study that he brought forward in December of 1998.
The fear is that there is nobody listening. The minister stands and
talks about how he is all alone in trying to take this problem and the repercussions of it
forward to Ottawa. That should not be, and I do not think the minister is alone. I think
there is lots of support for the minister, but I am surprised that our own Premier has not
gotten involved. I am surprised that our own Premier has not taken this on as a challenge
that means more to rural Newfoundlanders and their way of life than any other issue today.
We are talking about a fishery that employed thousands and thousands of
people around especially the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. We are talking
about an industry that contributed in excess of $600 million to the economy of this
Province. We are talking about an industry that has the capabilities of sustaining all of
our rural Newfoundland communities. The fishery is the backbone of rural Newfoundland and
Labrador, and we are talking about an increase, an over-explosion, of the harp seal herd
that has the potential to wipe out that cod stock.
It was only yesterday that I met with the district regional manager for
Newfoundland, and he talked about how they sent three draggers out to do a survey of
Northern cod. They sent out three draggers and, if my memory and my figures serve me
correctly, he said they came back catching 802 or 803 fish, on three trips to the offshore
where they would normally catch fish. My understanding is that those were not scientific
vessels; those were FPI vessels manned by captains and crew that would normally fish in
the areas that they would go out and bring back loads of fish in the days prior to 1992.
Today, just a few short weeks ago, they went out and found 802 fish.
That is what they brought back. We have to ask ourselves what is happening. Is it water
temperatures? Is it foreign overfishing? Is it a situation that we have caught all those
fish and there is not enough left to replenish itself and once again become a vibrant
industry in this Province?
We hear tell of lots of fish inshore. I can show the minister pictures
just the opposite to the pictures that he has, that were taken over in Jamestown just a
week before those pictures were taken, where people were out dipping up the fish with dip
nets. They could walk across the beach. Fish like this, I say to members opposite.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) put it back.
MR. FITZGERALD: Absolutely, he just took it out and showed the size
of the codfish that were there.
Here again, I say to the minister, you can stand on the wharf and the
codfish would come in like caplin. They would come in a school and go around the wharf. In
the meantime, out at the mouth of the bay in Jamestown, it was not hard to spot seals. The
seals would pen the codfish inshore and, I suppose - the nature of the beast - they would
trap them and eat them. It was only a year ago -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) drove the fish ashore?
MR. FITZGERALD: Do I think that the seals drove the fish ashore? I
would say they did. I don't think the codfish, as plentiful as it is - and I think there
is a fair amount of codfish in the inshore. In fact, people are excited about the stocks
and how they have replenished themselves, but I don't think it is the nature of cod to
come inshore to beach themselves. That does not happen, I say. It is not the nature of the
beast.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: No, I don't believe that. I think fish is plentiful
on the inshore but it is not that plentiful.
Mr. Speaker, the problem is in trying to convince somebody of the
nature and magnitude of the problem as it exists today. When you look at 6,000 to 7,000
thousand harp seals out there today - harp seals is all we are talking about; we are not
talking about hooded seals, we are talking about harp seals, I say to members opposite -,
if you look at the amount of cod or the amount of fish those seals consume, the estimation
is 7 million tonnes. The estimation is that 7 million tonnes of fish on an annual basis is
destroyed by seals. That is unbelievable, I say to members opposite. How many fish plants
could that keep open? How many people would be allowed to go back to work if this codfish
could be brought ashore and processed in our plants?
People up in Ottawa, the decision makers, are not listening. They are
making their decisions based on false information. They are basing their decisions based
on misinformation. I do not know if people opposite saw the show This Hour Has 22
Minutes , where Rick Mercer went down to Harvard University and talked to some people
there. He was explaining to them about the problem we had in Newfoundland with seals. He
took the Newfoundland scenario and said: We have a problem with seals in Saskatchewan.
Those were intelligent people he was talking to there. They all put forward their
suggestions, they were very concerned. They did not think it was right to go out and
harvest a lot of seals, they did not think it was right to go out and kill a lot of seals,
but there was a major problem with seals in the Province of Saskatchewan. One of those
bright scientists, one of those bright university professors, was going to make a trip to
Saskatchewan to do a study on it before he would make up his mind on what the right thing
was to do with seals in Saskatchewan.
Here is the misinformation that is out there. Who are we talking to,
who are we listening to, and who makes the decisions? Who is the Prime Minister listening
to, and who is the federal minister listening to, when they decide they are going to set a
total allowable catch of 275,000 harp seals on an annual basis off the northeast coast of
Newfoundland and Labrador?
You might ask: What is the solution to solving the problem of the harp
seal herd? If you say it is such a problem, what do you suggest? It is like any other
problem. First of all we have to admit we have a problem. We have to admit a problem
exists. I think enough studies have been done. Everybody with any common sense knows what
seals eat. They know the repercussions if we do not act on trying to solve this problem
now. They know what a seal is capable of eating. They know what the industry is worth. It
is providing many opportunities right here in this Province. Gone are the days when you go
out and slaughter seals, and you are bringing ashore the pelts and leave the carcasses on
the ice for the gulls to consume. Gone are the days when you only take part of that
particular animal and throw away the rest.
Today we have at least one plant in Catalina, a plant out in South
Dildo, a plant in Baie Verte, and another one, I understand a tannery, up in Springdale,
that take the full carcass of the seal, the full animal, take it to its value added in,
employ Newfoundlanders, and make very valuable commodities from the whole seal.
Down in my district, in Catalina, is a new modern seal plant that is
employing up to 125 people at peak periods. It employs in excess of thirty people pretty
well year-round. I brought a sample here one day. I stood here and showed the pelt that
was being done, the skin that was being processed, a sample of what was happening down in
Catalina. It employs Newfoundlanders. It is a Newfoundland product and it is something
that can provide us with some opportunities.
I do not think it is enough to say that we need to go out and take
400,000 or 500,000 seals unless we know we can do something with the animals after we hunt
it. What needs to be done, and it needs to be done immediately, is a reduction of this
seal herd. We need an immediate reduction, and then allow the herd to grow again. In fact,
Minister, I think in your own report here that Mr. Winters submitted talked about the
study he did, that the present harp seal herd could sustain an immediate reduction of 2
million and, in fifty years' time, with the present total allowable catch maintained,
would still provide us with a seal population even greater than it is today.
MR. SPEAKER (Oldford): Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!
MR. SPEAKER: By leave.
MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I understand there are other people
who want to speak on this, and I do have a second chance at it.
I just say in completing my few comments now that the scientists also
stated that, if we were to have a total allowable catch of 400,000 animals on an annual
basis, in fifty years' time the seal herd will still be able to still maintain itself and
stay at the level it is today.
We are setting the total allowable catch far too low, but we have to be
cognizant of what the market could stand. My suggestion is that we look at - and I agree
with the stand the minister has taken on this. I fully agree with an immediate reduction
of the seal herd. This, our fishing industry, is far too important to let others dictate
the agenda and let others decide because something about it looks cute, or it is a way to
raise some extra funds, or it is a way for somebody - like we saw in the newspaper the
other day - to collect $2.5 million by playing on people's emotions. It is far too
important to us than to allow that to happen with people who have those motives in mind.
With that, I will sit and allow other people to take
part in the debate
and close the debate at the end.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.
MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I want to say at the very outset that for three years plus I have been
saying there is no larger problem facing the present and future of Newfoundland and
Labrador, and the very survival of coastal communities of Newfoundland and Labrador, than
the problem we have with an under bio-massive resource of fish stocks and an
over-populated seal herd. There is no greater problem facing those communities than that
problem in itself.
What I want to do is to try to bring a conclusion to this file. What we
want to do, or what we should do, is bring a conclusion to this file together. I
appreciate the hon. Member for Bonavista South for bringing in the resolution to give us
an opportunity to discuss this, because this is not an partisan, political problem. This
problem faces every Newfoundlander and Labradorian. The only way it is going to get
resolved is if every Newfoundlander and Labradorian is a part of the solution.
I do not want to make it a political issue. I do not want to be out
there saying: This is only mine. This has nothing to do with it. This is too great a
problem to be focusing on a political agenda. What I want to do is make sure that if we
are going to go and get the decision changed to the advantage of Newfoundlanders and
Labradorians, we have to do it the right way.
There is no doubt in anybody's mind that that decision is only going to
Parliament of Canada. Why do I say that? Because of the impact the animal rights' groups
have had on people across this country.
Everywhere I spoke in Canada, and I talked to people, the first thing
they will point out, before I get the opportunity to speak to them about the sealing
industry in Newfoundland, they refer to us as barbarians, killing those little pitiful
whitecoats with the tear coming down their face. I simply say to them - I begin this way:
Do you know a seal does not have a tear duct?
Let's start looking at the animal rights group for what they really are
- spreading falsehoods, creating an image that is not true, building on the emotions of
people, to raise as much money as they can.
What I would like to do, to keep it away from the partisan situation,
is to move an amendment. It is simply this: In the first four recitals, the words
"Parliament of Canada".
In the fifth, the words "Government and people of Canada" be
struck out and replaced by the words "Parliament of Canada".
In the first resolution clause, the words "Government of
Canada" be struck out and replaced by the words "Parliament of Canada".
The last resolution clause be struck out and replaced by the following:
AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that an all-Party Committee of the House of Assembly, led by
the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, be struck to impress upon the Parliament of
Canada the urgency of addressing the seal overpopulation crisis".
I would like to move that amendment, and hopefully we can get -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. EFFORD: Yes, okay, thank you.
Just let me also state up front that we have to be careful in
addressing the overpopulated seal herd and losing a major industry in this Province;
because we are not only talking about the fishing industry, the shellfish industry, the
codfish industry, the groundfish industry. We have to keep a clear focus about the sealing
industry.
In 1998, the sealing industry had an export value of approximately $20
million; 3,000 sealers employed in this Province in the dead of winter who otherwise would
not get any employment. We cannot deal with one issue at the expense of the other issue.
We have to be very conscientious of the whole of the fishing industry, the whole of the
sealing industry in Newfoundland and Labrador, and if that is going to happen it has to be
a joint effort on the part of all of us.
One of the things that has been put forward is that you cannot use all
of the seal meat or all of the animal if you market it, if you harvest the seals to the
quantities that scientists are now saying, with the present markets, and that may be true.
The markets are growing in the world on a day-to-day basis. A lot of effort and a lot time
and a lot of money is being put out to develop the markets; but just look at one thing,
one thing alone: that this country, for decades and decades, has been sending food over to
the Third World countries. Multi-millions of dollars, on an annual basis, in food aid goes
over to Third World countries.
Let us look at the seal meat. Seal meat has the highest protein value
of any animal in the world, 67 per cent protein. One of the arguments made is that those
people living the Third World countries cannot digest seal meat. Well, ladies and
gentleman, look what the industry developed in this Province. This is a pill, capsule
form, of dried seal meat, high protein value dried seal meat that can be added to the food
aid that is sent over by other countries around the world, to the starving people in the
world, so they can get the necessary protein they require to build up their strength.
in the country, why can they not utilize this for no other reason than to save people's
lives? Thirty-two thousand children die every single day of starvation, lacking protein,
lacking food, and they are saying that we do not have a use for that seal meat?
Keep in mind one thing: the most lucrative part of the sealing industry
today is the beater seals, the young seals. We take very few of the older seals, and the
older seals are the ones that are causing the damage. The older seal is the animal that
has the most weight in meat. Why not take out the older seals and utilize that seal meat,
dry it in that form to save the lives of children? If you only save the life of one child,
isn't it worth it? We can talk about saving thousands of lives with a high protein value
product that we have here on our shores. There is absolutely no reason to waste it. For
three years plus I have been saying that and it has been falling on deaf ears. I have no
intention of sacrificing one industry for the other one but, as Minister of Fisheries and
Aquaculture, I am responsible for the whole of the industry in the Province.
Now, keep in mind that the seals did not cause the collapse of the fish
stocks. The greed of man caused the collapse of the fish stocks; the overfishing, 365 days
a year, and not the small boat fishermen in inshore Newfoundland but the large companies
that make as much money as they can, in as quick a time as they can, at the expense of the
people. The only people who are suffering today are the small boat fishermen in
Newfoundland and Labrador. Keep that in mind.
Let me give you some examples of what is happening today in
Newfoundland and Labrador. In 1988, in Burgeo, Ramea, Trepassey and Port Union, a
production value of $184 million worth of cod; in 1988. In 1998, in all of those
communities, there is $1 million being produced, down from $184 million in just those
communities.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. EFFORD: No, I am only talking about the cod. I am talking about
what the cod was in 1988 and what it is today in 1998.
Let's talk about the shrimp in Port Union. In Port Union they now have
one of the most modern shrimp plants in the world. Today it is employing - the Member for
Bonavista South can tell me - about 200 people maximum? Roger, about 200 people in Port
Union are being employed in the shrimp plant today, maximum?
MR. FITZGERALD: One hundred and fifty something.
MR. EFFORD: One hundred and fifty something. In the heyday of the
codfish industry 1,200 or 1,300 maximum, full-time and part-time. There is the difference
in loss.
What I am saying is: What has happened to the fish stocks? We caused
the fish stocks to collapse; but, at the same time we caused the fish stocks to collapse,
we stopped hunting seals and the population of seals exploded. Now it is out of whack. It
is out of balance.
Last year the NAFO science community reported that in 1997, seals
consumed 108,000 ton of Northern cod less than forty centimetres. That represents, in
numbers, 300 million small fish that never got a chance to grow and multiply. If you have
6 million harp seals out there and they only ate one fish a month, that is 6 million a
month times twelve months a year, which is 72 million fish; only eating one a month. Look
at what the Member for Bonavista South passed over to me. Look at those pictures. It will
give you an idea that I am simplifying the numbers when I say one a month.
AN HON. MEMBER: Somebody said the birds did that.
MR. EFFORD: Yes, and one of our great scientists up in Guelph,
Ontario, said that the birds did it. When I was coming up through Port de Grave last night
there were two gulls out on the rock with scuba diving outfits on. That is how silly it
is. The gulls did it.
Mr. Speaker, what I am most disappointed in and most shocked about is
that people today still, in Newfoundland, people today in the industry, do not recognize
the seriousness of the problems. They do not equate the number of seals with the number of
fish coming out of the ocean with the loss of jobs and the loss of communities.
Now, don't say the word "cull" in Newfoundland. I was
condemned for saying cull the seals. The hon. member opposite knows full well what he did
and the damage he caused, but nobody ever worries about culling the people. How many
people have been culled out of the communities in this Province in the last ten years? How
many communities are disappearing? Is that not culling? You don't mind culling the people.
The animal rights groups do not care about the people. They care about the $80 million
that they raised last year on the backs of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.
I was down in Gambo last night and one of the most professional sealers
stood up in the hall and said: Look, I was out last week to the ice. We killed a seal. Out
of the stomach of the seal we took a five gallon bucket of shrimp. Perry Burton said last
evening in Gambo: five gallons of shrimp out of the stomach of one seal. We do not have a
worry. These are professional sealers, professional fisherman, who recognize the
seriousness of this problem.
Let me give you, just very quickly, the number of jobs that were back
in the fishing industry and what is there today. In 1988 the average monthly employment
was (inaudible) people in harvesting; in processing, 26,000 people. The total in the
industry was 39,000 and 26,000, which is 65,000 total. Twenty-six thousand to 39,000 in
1998 employed in the processing. Average monthly employment was 6,200; peek employment was
13,000.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. EFFORD: I am talking about peek employment and the average
employment. The difference from 1988 to 1998 at peak is 8,600 jobs in the processing, and
3,100 jobs in the harvesting of the fish. We have got to look at the value of the fishing
industry that we are losing.
Today, 1998, the export value was $700 million, mostly shellfish. In
1988 the export value is $900 million worth of cod. If we had the cod back today to a
reasonable number and we were taking about 200,000 tons, which would be half what we used
to take, that would be $400 million. In other words, we would be close to $1.5 billion
worth of export value, and thousands of people employed in this Province today that today
are not employed.
Is it a serious situation or problem? It is a very serious problem, but
it is not a problem for one individual or for one group of individuals. It is a problem
that impacts on every Newfoundlander and Labradorian, regardless of where you live.
I will say this in conclusion. If we do not solve this problem, nobody
else is going to solve it for us. Like the people in Calgary said last week: If that was
coyotes or wolves destroying our animals, we would not talk about it, we would do
something about it.
Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER (Smith): Order, please!
We have an amendment moved. Do we have a seconder for the amendment by
the hon. the Government House Leader?
The Chair will now recess for a couple of minutes just to determine
that the amendment is in order.
Recess
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The terms of the amendment are in order.
The Chair recognizes the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I want to rise and join with the Member for Bonavista South and the
Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture in supporting the resolution before the House.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. HARRIS: We have to recognize that what we are dealing with here
is really one of the longer term consequences of the decline of our fishery which caused a
moratorium and put so many thousands of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians out of work,
which has decimated our workers in places like Catalina, down from 1200 workers to 150
workers, and that has contributed to the out-migration from this Province and caused
families to be separated and torn apart.
Mr. Speaker, the population of cod in this Province has been reduced to
the lowest level perhaps since the dawn of time. That stock must be rebuilt for two
reasons. Obviously, first and foremost in the minds of Newfoundlanders today, is that it
must be rebuilt to provide an income base for our people, to provide jobs, particulary in
rural Newfoundland. That is the first reason, and it has to be the foremost reason on the
minds of every Newfoundlander and Labradorian.
There is a second reason. That cod stock and that fishery represented a
significant contribution to the world need for food and protein. We as a people in
Newfoundland and Labrador, and indeed Canada, have a moral obligation to the citizens of
the world to rebuild that stock. That is an important contribution to the protein needs of
the world. We have a moral and a political obligation as Newfoundlanders and Labradorians
and as Canadians to do that too.
This resolution talks about the consequences, and tries, prays, hopes
and begs, perhaps, the people of Canada to realize what is happening here is the potential
destruction and further destruction of the already decimated cod stock.
A lot has been said about science in dealing with the moratorium, and
how Canadian scientists dealt with the cod stock and setting quotas and establishing
quotas and trying to tell us, supposedly, the basic things about codfish. They were wrong.
Unfortunately, they are wrong about their estimates that they are doing now.
When fishery scientists in the Department of Fisheries and Oceans are
calculating that there is a lower predation of cod by the seal herd they are making
fundamental errors. One of the reasons they are making fundamental errors is that they
estimate the cod predation, the number of cod taken, based on the number of cod ear bones
found in the stomachs of seals.
I saw those pictures the Member for Bonavista North distributed based
on eyewitness evidence of people seeing a cod fish being eaten, the stomachs being eaten
by seals, and looking at what is a virtual graveyard of codfish on the floor of the ocean.
All of those cods had heads, and their ears and ear bones were still on them. If you found
the seals that ate those fish and ate those stomachs and livers, and you were doing a
scientific investigation based on DFO science, you would say that those seals did not eat
any cod, even though the cod are there. The evidence is there on the floor of the ocean
that the cod were eaten, and there is eyewitness testimony that they were eaten by seals.
We have to impress upon the people of Canada, upon the Parliament of
sensible, even-handed, not inflammatory comments. We will leave all that to the other
crowd. We will leave all that to somebody else who wants to make inflammatory statements,
talking about the Minister of Fisheries as if he were - I think the latest was that he was
Joseph Goebbels.
The Minister of Fisheries and I are not always admirers of each other,
but I want to say that that kind of comment by Dr. Paul Watson - I think he is a doctor of
some kind - is the kind of commentary we have to keep out of this debate totally
altogether.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. HARRIS: I recognize that the Minister of Fisheries - and he
knows I disagree with him - has made himself some intemperate remarks in the past. I have
to say that what I heard today, and what I have heard recently, is a recognition that all
of us here in the Province have to win this argument on the basis of fact, on the basis of
the obligation that we have to rebuild the cod stocks and to realize that the seal is
another animal, a mammal, that is subject to harvesting, that has to be properly managed,
and we have to manage it in a way that ensures that it does not harm other species that
are trying desperately to recover.
We have to have recognition by all parties in this House that a
significant effort has to be made to impress on all Members of the Parliament of Canada
proper management of the seals.
Mr. Speaker, another flaw in the DFO science is that they base their
calculations on seal predation based on transponders. They are using satellite
information, based on older seals only. They are not dealing with what younger seals are
doing and eating.
The minister was talking about older seals being bigger and consuming
more, and that may be true, but if you are leaving out the consequences of all the
bedlamers - the young one-, two-, and three-year-old seals, and what they are doing - if
you leave that out of the calculations, then obviously you are missing the whole vote.
When we see the figures that the minister has mentioned, extrapolated
from the 108,000 metric tons that are being used - if there are 300 million individual
fish taken out of that system, that is 300 million less fish that can grow and, in a
matter of four years, be spawning fish. In fact, probably some of them would not need
three or four years to become spawning fish, if they are already sixteen, eighteen or
thirty centimetres long.
We have to recognize that the number of tons - we have always measure
our cod-take under tons. We do not have that luxury any more. We now have to talk about
the numbers of individual fish, and how we are going to use those numbers to rebuild the
stock to the point where we have a commercially viable fishery once again, to provide work
for our people and to provide a protein source to the world in the form of finished
products in codfish.
I think we have to recognize that this is a very important issue. We
cannot make it a partisan issue. We have to recognize, and I hope all hon. members will
recognize, that this is an issue which every single member of this House supports and is
behind and wants to work to change.
Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I have had many discussions with Mr. Peter
Stoffer, the fisheries critic of the New Democratic Party.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. HARRIS: Peter Stoffer, very popular in this Province, when he
was here on the fisheries committee and travelling around the Island.
I want to say that we have to recognize that industry has to be
supported and developed. In January, when the minister maintained the seal quota on
January 8, Mr. Stoffer and I jointly welcomed the announcement to maintain the total
allowable catch at 275,000 on an interim basis while we study ways to improve the ability
to market greater numbers of seals; to recognize that there has to be a management plan
that takes into account the effects upon the cod stock, and to do the kind of research and
development that is needed to ensure that we do have markets for seal products in forms
that are acceptable to a market. That requires a considerable effort on the part of the
inflammatory approach taken by organizations such as the IFAW when they continue to raise
millions and millions of dollars based on a picture of a whitecoat baby seal with a phony
tear in the eye, when there has not been a whitecoat hunt in more than fifteen years,
nearly twenty years.
I believe 1978 was the last year there was a whitecoat hunt. For nearly
twenty years there has not been a single whitecoat as a part of the commercial harvest for
seals. Yet, this organization is still using that image because they know they can get
money from unsuspecting individuals to carry on their campaigns and to line and support
must undertake a campaign to offset the disinformation that is being provided by
organizations such as the IFAW.
I will end by saying that this resolution should go forward as a
unanimous resolution of this House. It is one that is fully supported by our party and
certainly our caucus here in the House of Assembly, and by our fisheries critic in Ottawa,
Mr. Peter Stoffer, MP, as member of the fisheries committee.
We are fully endorsing this proposal and I think we do have to make
efforts to go to Ottawa, perhaps - although it is not listed in the resolution itself, I
think we should see how it works out - but we have to send a delegation to Ottawa to talk
to the parliamentarians to make sure they all understand that this is not an issue about
anything more than proper management of the seal herd, proper development of markets, and
proper respect for the balance of nature within our ecosystem and the need to rebuild the
fish stocks.
I commend all members to make this a unanimous resolution.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. ANDERSEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to speak to the petition put forward by the member across
the way, and to support the Minister of Fisheries in his bid to control the seal fishery.
Mr. Speaker, the Aboriginal people in Northern Labrador were depending
on the seal fishery as a way of life and a living. When the seal fishery was closed by
people from overseas, it had a big effect in Coastal Labrador.
If you follow the Aboriginal people over the years, unfortunately we
made the news where we were seen to be having social problems at a greater rate and ratio
than anywhere else in this Province and in Canada.
When the seal fishery closed, the Aboriginal people who made a fishery
in the springtime and in the fall and winter, were unable to go and hunt the seals and not
only get money to provide for nets, guns and snowmobiles but to provide other ways and
sources of means for the family. They lost that.
It is unfortunate that I stand in this House again today and remind the
House that when the cod fishery closed, or collapsed, it collapsed first in my riding.
Some members may get tired but I will say it again: My riding was the only riding in all
of this Province that did not get any compensation for the cod fishery.
When we her that a gentleman from Postville, who had fished for over
sixty years, the salt of the earth, was told that he did not qualify. When CBC made a
documentary of the Labrador fishermen, it showed the boats and people from Newfoundland
coming down to Labrador for the Labrador fishery, when people in my community fish in the
same boats. When the TAGS program came down, the people from the Island qualified; but
north of Fish Cove Point, the people in my riding were told that you do not qualify.
We saw the draggers, as the minister mentioned, when we used to cod
fish. We saw the draggers. When the ice would move off in the spring of the year, they
would move in. When the ice moved in, they would move off. They took our fishery. Now the
Aboriginal people in Coastal Labrador want to get back in the fishery but we are having
sort of a difficult time even with some of our own people in the Province, the
bureaucrats. Some of these people are saying: We don't want to see another seal fishery or
tannery in Labrador. I guess the reason why is because our famous fishery is in the fall,
and that is when these seals are prime. That is the prime time for the meat, the fat and
the pelts. We want to restructure that fishery so our people can go back and make a way of
life, because in some of these isolated communities employment is very hard to find at
times.
Mr. Speaker, I am not going to stand here all day because, as I said
before, if you speak more than three or four minutes then you end up saying a lot of
things you don't know what you are talking about.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. ANDERSEN: I want to say that I fully support the resolution put
forward by, I will say, a good, personal friend of mine who supplies me with pickled fish
every once in a while, and of course to support the minister. I guess it is ironic that at
the fishery conference in Nain for the communities of Coastal Labrador there was a
resolution passed to support the minister in his bid to control the seal population.
Before I sit down, Mr. Speaker, it is that minister who has helped us
in the last three years create more employment in a fishery -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. ANDERSEN: - such as scallop and turbot. Now, Mr. Speaker, with
his help and the help of the federal government we are hoping to get back into the shrimp
fishery. I hope we will have a chance at the shrimp before the seals take the biggest
quota of all.
So again, I support the resolution put forward. To the minister, I
support him in his efforts to control the seal population. I bring this from the people in
Northern Labrador and the aboriginal people. We do want to get back to a way of life that
was taken from us, and we support you for your efforts.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.
MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
I certainly want to rise today. I was asked earlier if I would be
speaking on this particular topic and I would not miss it. Because I really believe
something the minister said a few minutes ago. Not that I have been involved in it so
much, but over the last couple of years I have learned a lot about the seal industry and
the potential in this Province. I have learned a lot because it is home. The part of the
Province I live in, Fleur de Lys, could be considered the heart of the Province for the
sealing industry, the La Scie area with the ice floes and so on in that area.
I saw it firsthand in the last couple of years from learning and
listening and travelling around, and listening to the minister about the seal industry and
about the seal oil capsules and so on. I've learned a lot in the last two or three years.
At first I just thought about the seal hunt as most Newfoundlanders do, of a slaughter
that goes on the ice every year. We did not know much about it. What is key now is that it
is the most crucial time in our history that this particular issue has to come to the
forefront. It has to come to the forefront in this Province and it has to come to the
forefront in the Parliament of Canada.
That is why I strongly support this particular motion today, because it
is at the heart of it. If the Parliament of this country does not support and back up this
industry, very soon - and by very soon I mean in the days and months ahead - we are going
to be in for a worse disaster.
If the cod crisis in this Province has any chance of a recovery this
issue has to be controlled now. Every time I look around the Province I hear the stories,
and I will give you one example. The other day I was driving in from my district and we
had a person call in to the Open Line here. He could not tell Bill Rowe for sure if he
knew that seals were clubbed in Newfoundland and Labrador or not. That is a
Newfoundlander, apparently a fisherman. He was not sure if we still clubbed seals in
Newfoundland and Labrador. I use that to illustrate a point. If we are going to convince
the rest of our own country, then we have to be educated in this Province also; even in
our own Legislature here. How many people know what happens in the seal industry with the
seal oil capsules, with the tanning of hides, and with the so many other products that I
have seen over the last couple of years being developed? How many people realize what the
potential is?
I will give what I call a home example. In Fleur de Lys right now they
are rebuilding a building down there where they are going to be able to employ fifty,
sixty, maybe seventy people this year because of a new building there in which the Sealers
Co-op are going to be able to extract the oil and so on. They can't purify it or refine it
there, but they will do that and fifty or sixty people in the Fleur de Lys area will go to
work. That is like Voisey's Bay taking off, Mr. Speaker, in comparison to the Province. If
that plant operates this year and fifty people go to work in Fleur de Lys, that impact is
going to be substantial. I will even get down to say this much, that it could actually
save the community. Because what we are talking about now is survival in rural
Newfoundland and Labrador.
We have another plant that is just being built in my district in Baie
Verte where they are going to purify and refine the oil. I did a bit of research into that
and found out that if we refine it and actually capsulize it here, which we cannot do
right now, one machine, if we capsulize it, will allow for fifty full-time good, paying
jobs. That is just to put it in the capsules and put it on the shelf.
We could actually see in two, three or four years from now if it is
done right, where a seal is shot, it is brought into a plant, the hide is taken and tanned
and turned into leather, the seal oil is purified and put in capsules and put in the
bottle, comes right out of the plant in Baie Verte, and put in the drugstore where it can
be sold.
That is a point where we have to get to in this Province. Right now we
are at the most crude methods. I am going to tell you that if that plant - and that just
an example, because I know in the District of the Member for Bonavista South the same
situation is arising. We are going to put 200, 300, 400 people to work in a couple of
communities alone if that is done right. None of that can happen -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SHELLEY: Yes they are, they have bottled and capsulized those
in Baie Verte now. They are actually capsulized. We have had to send them away to get
capsulized and so, and now that particular company is looking at actually capsulizing,
which is a $1 million machine that puts fifty people to work at very well paid jobs. You
can actually do it in this Province.
Can you imagine? Just take it, now, just one little plant. If we take
in the seal meat, you can it right there in the plant. You take the oil, capsulize it, put
it in bottles and put it on the shelf. It all can be done in this Province. It is only
going to be done because right now the biggest problem - and the Minister of Fisheries I
hope can concur with this -, like many other of these plants around the Province, the
biggest problem they have right now is securing the markets and making sure that it is
there, when I believe the Province itself, under the minister and the government, and
when we go into the seal hunt and we want to look humane about it, in that we are
utilizing the whole animal, the markets are there available so that the plant in Baie
Verte or the plant in Bonavista South or wherever that plant may be can say: As much as
they can produce, we can sell it.
That is why the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador or the Government
of Newfoundland and Labrador, along with the Canadian government which should be backing
up this Province, must help in the development of that industry. There has never been a
more crucial time. The biggest hypocrisy I have ever seen in this Province is what we are
talking about here today. Just think about.
We had a French scientist that visited Baie Verte who helped with, of
course, the technology in developing the seal oil capsules. He came here from a foreign
land and looked around last year when the ice floes were here. There were millions of
seals around us, here were our cod stocks dying off, you could not go out and jig a fish
to eat, and still we had seals surrounding us. He said: Your solution is all around you.
The solution to your problem in this little town is all around you. The hypocrisy is that
here they are eating the fish we cannot go out to catch; the seals can go and slaughter
them. It is so ridiculous you wonder where the intelligence is of this whole situation
when it comes to the seal industry.
I commend the member for bringing this resolution forward, and I agree
with the minister. If there is one issue - and I've always said this to him since the day
I have been elected, and I will say it to him again today, and I am glad to hear it from
the Leader of the NDP here today - if there is one issue in this Province we have to jump
on - and I do not mean six months or a year from now; it is now - as a non-partisan issue
there, the NDP, the Reform, the independents whoever are there, and the Bloc and so on,
this is it.
They have to support us in the Parliament of Canada to bring the truth
to the seal industry in this Province. Not that we are a bunch of barbarians clubbing
white-coats still, but the real industry, and promote it. I also want to say, before I
finish speaking here today, we brought a resolution before this House almost a year ago -
getting together to put together an advertising campaign to promote the real truth about
the seal industry in this Province.
I support it wholeheartedly. I think if there is any way we are going
to sell this whole idea of a seal industry it has to start at home, and not with just one
minister. Although we commend the minister for what he does, but he is absolutely right
what he said today. Every single person in this Legislature, to every single
Newfoundlander and Labradorian, must understand the importance of us acting now on this
particular industry.
I think if we do that and bring forward that message to the Parliament
of Canada - and when I say that, I want to give a warning on this, because I have been
there before with those committees when the Member for Torngat Mountains was there. I do
not want to walk in and see five NDP there out of a full caucus, or five Tories, or five
Liberals. I want to see so that it is set up - and I want to say this to the minister
today, and I hope he is listening - that when we meet with the Liberal caucus, or whatever
caucus we are meeting with in Ottawa, that they are there, and they are there to listen.
We are going to put on a display that is going to prove to them that
what is happening in this Province with the seal industry has to be told to the rest of
the country. If we are going to develop this industry and do what is the right thing to do
in this Province with that industry, they have to be there, they have to listen. That is
the only way it is going to work. Because if it does not happen in our own back yard, how
can we expect it to happen up there?
I support this particular motion very strongly. I know what it means. I
know that in simple terms, if you get away from the numbers and the scientists, that in
communities like Fleur de Lys, La Scie, Bonavista South and all over this Province it
could mean the very survival of those communities. If those plants go ahead with what the
potential really is, it could mean that the places like Fleur de Lys are going to survive
in five and ten years from now, and we are going to put people to work doing an honest
day's work, and they are going to be able to remain in their communities.
That how important it is to us, that is how important the message has
to be. That is how important it is to the provincial government, the Opposition, the NDP
Party. That is the message we are going to have to bring to the Parliament of Canada, and
they have to support us.
I support that. I also recommend that the Member for Torngat Mountains
be one of those people. Because out of all of the speeches we heard during the committee
stages last time on the TAGS, it was a home-made touch that was brought by the Member for
Torngat Mountains. I'm hoping he will be another member on that so that we can all,
together, in a non-partisan way send a message to Ottawa. They have to support the seal
industry in this Province so we can get on with what we want to do.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am not going to belabour this debate here today. It is obvious we are
talking to the converted here. Minister, I say to you that there are 47 other members in
this House that will support you and stand with you any day when you take a stand against
something that is going to be negative and affect rural Newfoundland in a negative way,
which is happening right here.
I say to the minister that we have no problem whatsoever on this side
with his amendment. We talk about the Parliament of Canada rather than the Government of
Canada, and we talk about the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture leading a group to
meet with the Parliament of Canada. We have no problem with that. In fact, Minister, you
are probably the right one to lead the group.
I say to the minister that now we are probably putting it back in your
court again by saying to you, or me saying to you, that a lot of time you bring private
members' resolutions to the House here and that is as far as it goes. After Private
Members' Day ends the spirit and the prayer of the private member's resolution will end.
So I say to you now, Minister, that you should immediately, because the need is immediate,
ask that a committee be struck, and that that committee do whatever is in its power, under
your direction, to take the concerns of rural Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to the
Parliament of Canada to make sure that we receive action on this particular resolution.
Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER (Snow): All those in favour of the amendment, `aye.'
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye!
MR. SPEAKER: Against.
I declare the amendment carried.
We are now voting on the resolution as amended.
All those in favour, `aye.'
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye!
MR. SPEAKER: Against.
Carried.
We will have it recorded that the vote for the resolution was
unanimous.
The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.
MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, by consensus we have agreed that the
parliamentary clock is now at 5:00 p.m. I move that the House adjourn.
On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday,
at 2:00 p.m.