PRELIHINi\.RY UNEDITED TMNSCRIPT House of Assembly For the Period: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. Friday, March 4, 1977

•. . March 4, 1977 Tape no. 735 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Page 1 - MS There are two points of order which were brought up in the closingminutesof yesterday's session. I will deal with the second one first, and that was with respect to whether if a-minister was absent from the House during a debate under the 5:30 P.M. procedure, another minister could answer, partake in the debate,on his behalf. The relevant Standing Order 31 (

h) states: "The minister, if he wishes to reply, may speak in reply for no more than five minutes." It is totally silent on what the procedure would be if the minister is not in the House. It is totally silent on whether another minister may speak on his behalf. I realize that the precedents cannot overrule the Standing Orders. Standing Orders come first. Here the Standing Order is totally silent. There has been precedent, unchallenged precedent, for a minister to speak on b~half of another minister during that procedure; and I would, therefore, rule that he may do so as of right.

The other matter is with respect to the sub-amendment moved by the han. member for Windsor- Buchans (Mr. Flight). And just to avoid confusion, I should paint out that this is a second and different point of order than the first one. The first one dealt with the relevancy of the sub-amendment, whether it was in order on the basis of relevance, and it was decided there that the sub-amendment did not enlarge upon the scope of the amendment. The actual kmepdment is a condemnation of the government for certain omissions. ·. ThE; sub-amendment expresses regret for other assumed alleged omissions.

Therefore, that it did not enlarge upon the scopeof the amendment, which was condemnation or regret of the government for omission, but dealt with a matter not covered specifically by the amendment, and that was - and in the sub-amendment - a very specific alleged omission. 2014

March 4, 1977 Tape no. 735 Page 2 - MS Mr. Speake_!.. The second point of order,on which a decision has to be given now, debate and argument centred over the allegations in the sub-amendment, allegations of fact, whether they were accurate or not. Number one, certainly it would be very difficult, it may well be impossible,for me in a short period of tim~ · to make the judgement whether those allegations are correct or not, and indeed it would be open for discussion -:- to what extent even that would be - that is what I should do. .But certainly if I were to do it, it could well take days.

There would be financial data - I have heard arguments to the right and arguments to the left - certain financial data : Presumably, I would write the Comptroller of Finance and get his opinion . as a servant of the House,and certain legal opinion as well • . , -. . '~ ~-~.

March' 4, 1977 Tape 736 PK - 1 Mr. Speaker; What I have done, and what the ruies permit me to do,is to affect a change,not of substance, but of form. In doing this I consulted with the mover of the sub--amendment, the hon. member from Windsor-Buchans (Hr. Flight), and I have therefore made a change in the sub-amendment as to form, and this leaves the area of the allegations of fact out of the sub-amendment.

And the sub-amendment as altered reads "And this Hous~:: further regrets the action of the ministrr in agreeing to bor ::owing the sum of $50 million without providing prior opportunit~-- for debate in this House." SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from St. John's Nort ··-· MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, there is a thh ~ point of order that should be considered at this time. The point of order concerns the right of the hon. member from Windsor-Buchans to :;peak for an unlimited period of time. Mr.

Speaker, it was establ:_shed some days ago that a person making an amendment to the Spe,·:ch from the Throne may speak for an unlimited period of time, and also a person making a sub-amendment may speak for an unlimited period of time. This was decided on the basis of precedents ir this House, uncontested precedents. But, Mr. Speaker, there has never been, to my knowledge, a second sub-amendment to the Spee c:·, from the Throne made. MR. NEARY: . Oh yes there has. MR. J. CARTtR: If there has,the person has not spoken for an unlimited period of time, and therefore, Mr. Speaker, I am - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. J. CARTER: Could I have silence from the cri; · Lnal element, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of personal p :·ivilege. Sir, I would suggest to Your Honour that the remark made by the hon. gentleman !

March 4, 1977 Tape 736 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: Sir, is completed unparliamentary, absolutely uncalled for, completely ignorant, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - and that the member should withdraw his statement and apologize to this House, Sir, for being so irresponsible. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: On that point of order. Certainly reference to bon. members as 'criminal element 1 would be improper. I would ask the hon. member to withdraw it. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. J. CARTER: I withdra,.,, Mr. Speaker, but the only thing is - SOME RON. ME:t-ffiERS: Oh, oh! MR. J. CARTER: -Mr.

Speaker, I certainly withdraw, but I do not see how another point of order can intervene, I '"as on a point of order. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I therefore contest the bon. member's right to speak for an unlimited period of time, not because I do not want to hear from him, I think he is one of the better,more reasonable speakers in this House, but I think if this right goes unchallenged then every single person who wishes to make a sub- amendment to the Speech from the Throne or to the Budget Speech, while we are operating under our present rules-is going to be able to speak for an unlimited of time. MR. NEARY: , ..

MR. J. CARTER: And I suggest to Your Honour that the chaos that would result - MR. NEARY: Go back to your savoury patch. MR. J. CARTER: Your Honour, would you - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. J. CARTER: - confine the bon. Valdrnanis lover - SOME RON .MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I wish to interrupt both bon. ·gentlemen. And there is a point it appears quite k necessary to rna e, and that is when points of order are being made, number one,

.... . .,. March 4, 1977 Tape 736 PK - 3 Mr. Speaker: the arguments should be strictly relevant. There should be no interruption. And it would certainly appear, bearing in mind that yesterday as well~that not all hon. members are living up to that requirement as they should. So points of order should be strictly relevant. There should be no interruptions. The hon. member from St. John's North. MR. J.

CARTER: I can be as relevant as it is possible to be, but I do not want there to be a precedent established or an uncontested precedent to be establisheg,and therefore I am protesting the hon. gentleman's right to speak for an unlimited period of time on the basis that this not the first sub-amendment to the Speech from the Throne, but the second. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. NR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, first of all I am not ~sure whether the point of order is in order because it is a hypothetical point, but if Your Honour wishes to dispose of the point I rum prepared to make a submission.

The question is not whether the ruon. gentleman can speak for an unlimited time, but whether he can speak for more than the forty-five minutes which ordinarily is his ~ue. And I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that. the relevant rule is 49 (

b) of our Standing Orders, which

.. ·· ~~arch l:, 19 77 Tape 737 IB-1 does not speak of amendments or sub-amendments or amything else, except it talks of ROVernment onlers - well ~ ,that is not relevant here and these are not government orders. I am so ·.-:::- ry, 49 (a), !-fr, Speaker, :is the one, not 49 (

h) Hh:ich refers tcJ the Premier and myself. The relevant

part is, "A member Jnakin ;:- · a motion of "~;o Confidence" in the p.overnment. 11 And I would St! · ·~gest, Sir, th~t is the germane questton, '1iJhether the sub-amendment ·, ··,oved by the gentleman for Hindsor-Buchans (?"r. Flight) amounts t::o a motjon of no confidence. 1-fr, Speaker, obviously it is a me.' t :ion of no confidence. It is a motion which if adopted by the Rouse critic .izes the government in respect of their handling of a very important a o: ?ect of H.nancial ' affairs.

Noth:!.ng is more relevant to the confiden c 2. v!hich a House . holds in the governwent than the conduct of financ ·: .:11 affairs. If the motion were to be carried ,then the gav e r nment would have no option other than either to resign, a general e ~ ection.,or follm.;ring the so called Pearson precec1ent established back i r: about 1967, 1968 in the House of Col'1J1'1ons in Ottm.;ra,put dmm a rnot:!o n ~ of confidence and put that to the test and thus further test the House's wish.

But, Sir, I think the motion or the amendMent, the motion if you wish, is a matter of no confidence.Because it ·:is a natter of no confidence it is governed by 49 (a), Therefore t ::·,e hon. gentleman for l.Jindsor-Buchans (}fr. Flight) if he w:i shes - I l '"!.derstand he has no such intent or wish, he may be provoked into it ) y the han. gentleman for St. John's North (1-fr. J. Carter) -but if the ~ .~mber for Hindsor- Buchans (Hr. Flight) so wishes he has the right tc· speak for more than forty-five minutes because it is a motion of <:o confidence.

There is nothing, Sir, an~rhere in our Standing Or "zrs or~ I submit, anywhere in our precedents governing the length of t:i.me in respect of t-:hich members t!'ay speak on amendments or sub-a r;), ·ndments or motions except Stanr.lng Order /19 wh:i ch is the one that set . ,; forth the rules. It does not refer specifically to amendments or to sub-amendments ~r l'tnyth:fng else, it refers on] y to government or~. e ::- "' or to motlons of no confidence. Of course that is almost all the c usiness of the. House ' • 2.019

1~arch 4, 1977 Tape 737 IR-2 !-<P-. 'ROBEPTS: -- - leaving aside the snpp1 y proceclnre 'vh:l ch is r,overnecl by a separate rule. I submit, Sir, that if the hon. gentlemAn so njshes because he has moved a motion of no confidence he is entitlecl to spenk for the forty-sixth minute and thereafter as Jon~ as he is reJ evant and according to the rules of orner. }'P_. SPFAKFP = The hon. mer.~ber for St. John's Nor tit. }-fP... J. CAT'TET>: }-fr. Speaker, to that same point 0~ orcler. No one j_s sugpesting that this is not a motion of non-conrJclence or part ' and parcel of a motion of non-confidence.

I freely aclmit that this is a narrow, technjcal point. But nevertheless ,m,~ '~: ss this is - as Your Honour ruled the last time, Your P.onour 's ru' ' :tg Fas goverened entirely by precedents, and therefore since, as I Ed..,mittecl earUer, there is no preceoent for the second roover of a E;· b-amendrnent to a Speech from the Throne or to a buclget speec~ ha~ing spo~en uncontestedly for more than forty-five minutes, theTet:ore ! submit that the hon. member for Hindsor-Buchans O·(r. Pligb:

t) has no right to such un]jmitecl time. MR. NEARY: If you spent more time in the Rous~ irst.eacl of in yonr'st:~VC'I\try patch - PP. SPEAKEP= Orfler, please! Standing Order 49 (a), I shall read in its entirety, "No mem11er except the Premier and the Leader of t~::: Opposition or a 1-"inister mov:i_ng a government order and the memher .'peak:ing in reply immediately after such :r-~in:!.ster, or a member makh::. a motion of "No Confidence" in the government and a }finister L;plyinp thereto .... shall speak for J"1ore than forty-five minutes at a ::irne in any debate." No'I-T,the hon. l"lember has m~de a motion.

It cer:ainly has to be a motion of no confidence. So in the interpretatior of the Stanc1:1ng Orders he has the rir,ht to speak beyonc1 forty-five minutes. l~ith respect to the question of precedent, th~~e is a questjon of fact ,,•hich ~·!OU1 d have to he ascertained, ~.:rhether t.'lere have 1n fact fn th1 s J egislature under thPse ruJ es heen other c ccasj ons in 'vhich there "toms a sub-amendment, a second suh-amencf!lent to the Adrlress in Reply. It is n nuest:fon of fact of wh~ch I alT" n•t absolutely sure

... Harch If, 1977 Tape 737 IB-3 now. But I do not see that the sub-amendment being a second or indeecl a third '\-!Ould alter the fact, if the sub-amendment brjngs itself within the definition of the Standing Order, then •J~. I'\ ··.~~ tr.J\. ; I'w..&...

March 4,1C177 Tape 7311 AH-1 ~R. SPFAKF.R: it ~wuld appec:tr to me that the precedent establishP.rl and the ruling given a week or so ago ,.,as with respect to a sub-amendment on the Address in Rep] v, "tih.ich "'as one of no conficlence and entitled the member to spl"alr. more than forty-five TTJinutes. I cannot see anythinp. Hhich would differentiate bet"t-;een the rights of a member moving a sub-amendment which would be the second sub-amendment, rather than the first. I can see nothing ~vhich ,.,ould argue that there t-rould be a difference.

If it is a sub-amendment and in order,and if it is one of no confidence, then there is nothing to sugp,est that a mer:'ber' s rights would be affected in any way by it being the second rather than a first. And therefore I have to rule that the hon. member does have the right to speak in excess of forty-five ninutes and that I r.an see no difference in a member's ri~ht depending on ~-rhether a sub-amendment is the second or the first. STATEHENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. HR. }'1URPif.'i: "Mr.

Speaker, I think I am a little late actually,but I ~-muld like to put into the record of the House today ,,..rith the permission of the House,an event that takes place· in the city tonight, I do not know if it has been mentioned~and t~ ~ lt is to celebrate the 150th anniversary, Sir. of the AnnuaJ :t::getta. vJhirh I think is a historic event itself. It is the longest r. ·ntinuing amateur event in all of Canada and I would like on be'" ilf, principally I suppose to St. John's members, to offer c rmgratulations to the president .,Mr.

Reardip,an,and to other of his eX<.'cutive for continuing the \Wrk that has been gr-ing on for so lone-. And ,as I say, the St. John's Regetta is one of the historic ev· ·1 ts of Canada. So I would liKe to have it \..rritten into the record. SOHE HON. MF'-fHERS : flea r, hear! ~m. srF.AKFP: The hon. m~mher.

Harc1, 1~,1977 Tape 73R AH-2 ~m. NOLAN: Hr. Speaker, we certainly join 1o1ith the hon. ~finister of Consumer Affairs and Environment on notinp; this 150th anniversary, I believe the han. member said, and of course for Many of us, not on] y th~ St. John's memhers so-called, hut evervone in Ne~-1foundJ.anrl.

We ~.;ell remerrtber the participation~ for exarnnle, of the cre~vs from Placentia ·and other areas~ Fe tl-tink fondlv of the tremendous efforts of the Americans, for example, Hho ~.Jhen they ,.;ere stationed here on our shores and the part that they played.bnd of cours~ we remember all the very, very fine people we have known over the years ~·rho have associated themselves l>lith the .Annual Regetta.

I think it would be remiss of all of us if we did not pay a tribute to those who have worked so ~ard for so long to make t:: i.s- I believe it Has durinP- the ~·rar that they dropped it one ·1ear or tt.Jo, or more t.Jas it? AN HON. ~IT.lUJF.R: The First Horld Har. HR. NOLAN: The First ~!orld War • But during the Seco'1d t._rorld lolar it continued uninterrupted. }1R. :MURPHY : Yes, with great respect. HR.

NOLA.J.'!: And of course as one who has covered the Regetta for any number of years on radio and television, I can think of many of the names who ,,1ere dmm there from time to time~and of course I think the last one I remember doing just a fe,., years ago, early in the morning , intervielvin~ the late Han. James D. Figgins as he came dmm in the horse and vragon, dmvn by the boathouse ~anrl ,.,e exchanged a few reminiscences there on the air,and I really miss his presence at the Regetta because he was so much a part of it.

And of course we think of all the Shotty Rogers and all the great names that have been associated with the Regetta, and ~,·e have noted too, since I 't.Jas a hoy and many other memhers in this House, how much some of the funr.tions have chanp;ed. A little more sophistication•

.. Tnpe. 73R J\!1-3 ~ R . ~OLJ\N : Some of the juice that is consumed down there now is bottled a little more - MR. ROBERTS: Fven fit to drink, is it? "t-!R. NOLAN: fa"1.cifully,I believe, that it was years ago.You do not have the Spruce Beer and Hop Beer and all as it t-1as years ago. I hope that we will,certainly I would hope. that the hon. minister and Mr. Speaker might find it convinent to convey our very good "tvishes and congratulations to the committee and to wish them luck in the year corning and for the years ahead.

As a matter of fact I think the Regatta has changed the date this year for the first time because of the Summer Games. A.'l HON. MRMBER: Hhen ~rill it be hP.l rl? MR. NOLA.~ : Pardon, I do not know the exact date . p ._ you knmv the date of the Regetta thi s year? HR. 1-IDRPHY: It use d to be t he first t.Jednesday in Aue;u;o. t , bu t it will be

Harch 4, 1977 Tape No. 739 N~ - 1 MR. HURPHY: the last Wednesday in July I believe this year, eh? "'fR. NOLAN: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Brought forward a week. HR. NOLAN: RiRht. Hell I just wanted to - MR. ROBFRTS: Does that mean that we will have our holidays a ~veek earlier? MR. DOODY: Providing the ice is off the pond. MR. NOLAN: Pardon. HR. DOODY: Providing the ice is off the pond. MR. NOLAN: Provided the ice is off the pond. MR. ROBERTS: Weather is federal. MR.

NOLAN: Also a gentleman of course that I should mention . who is usually in this House in the spectators' gallery quite frequently and he is not here~is the famous Aubrey Mac whom we have often paid tribute and Aubrey of cours: is noted by his mm admission of speaking from to time from t he bottom of the pond.

So with these few remarks I would like to endorse the remarks of the hon. minister on behalf of all those on this side~and I notice now that the members of the Hous e of Assembly are engaging in sporting activities on the ice and ~erhaps one day we will see a member of the House of Assembly ::1 a regatta, not only jn St. John's but in other areas of this :covince. I am not sure that it will enhance such aquatic evenrs but at least it might offer some amusement. SOME HON. ME~ffiERS: Hear! Hear! MR. ROBERTS: Walking on the water. 000 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a point of information, ; wonder if - MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order. HR. ~.JFLLS: A point of order. ..

'<~'.nch 4, 1977 Tape No. 739 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: A point of order, Sir- I do not know what it is - a point of privilege, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice when we are goin~ to p,ct some more answers to questions. I have got about 250 questions on the Order Paper now., J have got five or six answers and here "to!e are nmv up in the 5th. or 6th. of Harch. When are ~.,e going to get some answers'? I wonder if the minister is going to make an effort to provide the House with the information? MR. HICKMAN: Such a foolish list of questions. MR. NEARY: Go down and straighten Dick Greene out:, boy.

ORAL QUESTIONS: HR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. :-1R. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, they say we are too gre"2n to burn. }lll. NOLAN: Very good. MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, my question in the absence of the Premier, and the Minister of Mines and Energy, must go to very much the second best, but the best we can do,t~ the minister - Oh~here is the Premier now, Sir. A que~tion then for the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, given the government's commitment here in the House a year or so past to C' rmsider the question of removing the ten per cent retail s 2 l~s tax from that portion of the electrical bill incurred by cor: ':umers who use electricity for home heating, and given the fnct that the price of electricity continues to rise and will rise again further as a result of the price increases announcc ,d yesterday by the Minister of Mines and Energy. that is permitt :-:d by the Public Utpities Board- if the Premier looks at his light bill he will notice a fuel adjustment tax or fuel adjustuent rate built in as part and parcel of it now, under author·ity of the Puhlic Utilities Commission- ~riven that undertakiw " by the government, and p,iven the constantly rising prices , can the Pre~ier tell us when the legislation to authorize this, or the

March 4, 1977 Tnpe No, 739 NH - 3 MR. ROBERTS: appropriate action by the Cah.fnet, either legislation will be introduced or the appropriate .... ) action will be taken by the Cabinetr ~ffi. SPEAKER: Th~ hon. Premier. PREMIER ~mORES: Mr. Spec:.ker, because of the obvious fiscal constraints we are all under it is not the intention of the government to do it at this time as much as we \vould like to.

We have once again,like Prince Ed~-1ard Island and '!ova Scotia, made representation to the federal government to give us some c:.ssistance regarding heating fuel and the various progrannnes they have unden-ray to conserve energy and so on. And as I say~as much as the government would like to do that at this time unfortunately ~ve find it btpossible to do so. HR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAF'.ER: A supplementary? H~.. ROBERTS : Well by l-:-ay of a supplementary, I me::· ely want to note that I will ask that the matter be debated on the Late . Show next Thursday. MR. NOL~~: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. HR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary? ~ffi. NOLA~: Yes. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay So;:th. HR. NOLAN: The supplementary again involves the ~ · "'.doundland Hydro and in today' s newspaper the House no doubt l; ,,s noted that Newfoundland Hydro intends to ask Newfoundland Light and Po,.,er for further increases. I believe the ministers have indicated that Newfoundland Hydro will be sub ~ '' Ct to possible review by the-Public Utilities Commission. ~-Till this latest effort on behalf of Newfoundland Hydro go hc: ' 0 ore the Public Utilities Commission? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

Harch 4, 1977 Jape No. 739 NM - 4 PRWHER. MO()RES: I am not sure of the answer to that questj.on, Mr . S~eaker . The problem is that it is being discussed, and I think it is fair to say that it is the intention that Hydro '-7ill go under the Public Utilities Conunission and as I think anybody who is in the retail po\..rer business s hould be , or the uholesale poHer business for that matter . But regarding the l atest statement , I am not sure but I \..rill certainly take notice of it and f ind out for t he hon . member . MR. ROBERTS: Mr . Speaker ~ a supp l ementa ry .

Harch 4, 1977 Tape no. 740 Page 1 - NS MR. SPEAKER A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the Premier's answer,-the government have announced in its policy that they intend to bring Hydro under the authority of a regulat !ory body, either the Public Utilities Commission or presumably or possibly a similar body, Can the Premier tell us \o7hen that wiLl_ be done, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: During this session of the House, Mr. Speaker. HR.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a further supplement& .ry. MR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. MR.

ROBERTS: Sir, will the Premier issue direc~ions to Hydro,given the fact.that the House will be dealing w:i:.th the matter at this session as he has just told us, will t&-:e Premier then issue directions to Hydro - after all they are a Crown corporation - that they are not to request any change in rates unt ~l the new procedure is in effect so the change in rates can be considered under the new procedure? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, once again I will t~ke it as notice. I do not know how far Hydro have gone with their var ~ ous customers and so on.

But I will get the information and the government's stand and let the Leader of the Opposition know. MR. ROBERTS: One further supplementary, Mr. S::1 eaker. MR. SPEAKER: One further supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Can the Premier tell the House ~~ether the Cabinet have given Hydro permission to proceed with ·the appropriate steps, ,.-hatever they may be, that.Hydro has announce'::! today with a view to raising their wholesale rate which, of cours •e, in turn will result directly in an increase in the retail rmte to the customers? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER MOORES: The situation, ~-tr.

Speaker, is !that, yes, Hydro have got to try to keep the rates up somewhere in lii.ne. Hydro is costing the taxpayers of the Province a great deal <of money now " 1-

Harch 4, 1977 Paee 2 - mw Premier Moores: with the present rates and even with the new rates proposed. The fact is that unfortunately all the new generation of power in the Province now is from oil generated units, and there is another one being installed at Holyrood at the present time. And that means, of course, that the new electricity coming on stream is very much more expensive than the hydro electricity from Bay d'Espoir and the other hydro sites in the Province. I think there are some hydro sites left.

Some of them could possibly be harnessed, but there are others such as Lloyds Lake,which my friend from Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) is familiar with, that for ecological reasons,and other reasons, it would be very wrong even though :i,t would mean a slightly lower power rate. But the fact is, Sir, that unfortunately until such time as we can get Labrador power to the Island part of the Pro vince, our power costs are going to increase the same as any other area that depends solely on thermo generation. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. gentleman for Fogo. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, last session of the House,Sir, the hon. Premier agreed to set up an Internal Commit~ee of officials of the Department of Finance, Health and Public Works . to look into management fees and certain other arrangements that ·; .. ·ere made at the Health Science Complex with Scrivener Newfou11.~ land Limited. Would the Premier now tell the House if that committ ee was set up, if it was in actual fact set up? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER MOOP.ES: Yes, Hr.

Speaker, the committee ·.;as set up and its report and the exact detail in it - I know that there was nothing ontoward of any signficance or it would have been brought fon~ard. But I • certainly will get the information and pass it on to the hon. member.

Harch 4, 1977 Tape no. 740 Page 3 - rnw MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Could the Premier ·tell the House what terms of reference, if any, were given to the Internal Committee to investigate Scrivener Newfoundland Limited? MR, SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, once again there was a fairly thorough investigation. The exact terms of reference, we have not got it with us here right now. Once again I will get that for the bon. member as well. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementarv. MR.

NEARY: Does the Premier see any need for a further investigation either by the Auditor General's department, by the police or by anybody else in connection with this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : No, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Could the Premier indicate to the House the completion date of the Health Science Complex, which has now been under construction for going on over six ye .-,rs, I think? It has to be the longest construction project in the history of Newfoundland. When is it going to be completed? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, that is a $64 quest i on~ because we have had varying dates for varying years. I agree with the hon. member that it has been ongoing, and very, very expensive, and a proj~ct that with the cost and the length of time of the construction, one wonders about the merit of having started it in the first place, but that is hindsight now. But the last date I seem to remember, I think it was March 1978, but I would not want to be held to that. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. 'HR. SPEAKER: One additional supplementary. . 1-m.

NE.I\RY: Coula tne ~remier ~>{' ·)>~t I ' J ._ _ . .,_, - ·

P:~rch 1,, I r,77 JB-1 inc1icn.te the RrlrlHiona] t:"ttncls tktt l·dll be neei!ecl over A.nd above I thin} the ~40 ~illion that was the estimntecl cost, the additional funcls thnt t·dJJ be requiren to f:fnisl1 the Health Sciences Complex? An~ if there is an increase in the cost, ~ouJd the Premier tell the E0use '·'l1ere thP money Pill col"'e froPJ? r.JiJl it ~e put up hy the provindal r-overnTT1e.nt or sh1recl _io5ntly hy the Province and the Covern~ent of C~n~rla? ~he hon. PreJ'T1ier. ~.,.r.

Sneaker, the figure as I unilerstand :ft is someFhere around $57 l'lHlinn or $58 mi11 ion nmv: Once again I would not tvant to be he] c to that figure. And the financing for the co:'npletion I ~··ouJd assuT!'e Hi]} be nnc1er the same financing: as the rest. l..<p. NEN'Y: The novernment of r.anarla "•ould pay it? 1-'P. SPE,-\KEP: The hon. meTTl.ber for "'n?o. ('l\.PT. r.TJ~lSOP: ',fr. f;pe~ker, ? rp..testfon for the hon.. th.e Premier. Can the Premier tell the Fouse what the governn.ent's position on the request by the Inuits of LabTaclor for the o"mership of a large portion of Jancl in Northern Lahrac1or? ~,.,.

SPF.AKE'P: The hon. Premier. PP.F.''IEP }'(10'Pf.S: r-fr. Speaker, the Inuit Assocj at4lon have a stateY"!ent of c-labn ~·~hich ~-ras financec1 by the feceral governl"mt. And I understand that ~·r. AlJT'land, I think :i.t :is, ~. nd }'r. C-ourlie - c)r the member for Naskaupi,from my office,are receiving that presentztion of claim. But that is absolutely v~ithout prejudice as such ~ecause we have no official claim on that lan<l from any organizati .rn as yet. l-Je have had federal fund:ing to !>ee v7hat claiY"! if any they have to it.

Our position unt:il :it has evolved lllttch further thar. it is now, is that they have no cJ aim untH it is proven othendse. ~m . SPEAKE~: A supplementary. _CAPT. HINSOP: Is jt not a fact,or i::: the Premier m,rare, I helieve thnt thifl Jand WlS rnmtec1 to the ~'oravi;m ~'issjonr quite a lC'Inp, while back. Ihtt then there was a movement hy the r.C'IvemlT'ent of the nay to

""arch '', 1977 · Tnpc 71,1 IB-2 C.t\PT. HTNSOT!: r.et it reverserl and rassed over to the povernment or to thP Province. Does the Premier knm·.' v7hether they really took place or not and if the l.anr. :fs stiJ1 i.n the naMe of the Moravian Yiss:ff.'",ns? ~'n . SPP.KF .T': The hon. Pr emi er. PP D'I F. P VOOPF.S: The ans~-1er is, no I am not famil~'- ar ~vith it, ~"'r. Speaker, but as far as vre are concerned that land b.::olongs to the Province and all the people of the Province. As I ~;ay, until it is claimed othen1ise or until it is proven othenrise tr·tat is the way it 'tor:lll remain. ~.

SPEAKEr: The bon. member for Conception Ba~y South followed by the bon. gentleman for Terra Nova. 'f''l'. NOLAN: A qu~stion for the Min:fster of Socia }. Services. I did not have an opportunity by the W::\Y to give the min:i ster ac1.vance notice on this so I could understand it jf he would indeed perhaps wants to take it as notice. If so, fine. It is regarding ~ · j rginia Park again.

He have had quite a number of callsias I am sure tbe minister's department has,at Vfrginia Park frol'l residents there regarding,according to my notes, heat and li?ht bills being paid separattely in Virginia Park and apparently the community is quite upset a··:-out it out there. I knm-1 there has been a petition presented and so ::m. I am ,.,ondering if the minister is fn a position noP or perhaps on }'onday to give us ar.y additional information on ~·mat if anythinr, ' ,as been done or can be done in reference to th:f.s matter? 1-"J!. SPf..AF:ER: The hon. ¥inister of Social Servic ~ s. 1-m. B'PF.TT: l""r.

Speaker, yes I have received the petit:f .on and I have rep] iec'l to it. But in all honesty I think it is il'1possible for my department or any departll1 .ent to make reguL '. ::ions for any one part1cular area or

section of the Prov:f.nce. ,~ :.1 regulations have to be uniform. I certainly acknm .. ,ledge and I am very sympathetic tmvards peopJe,part:fcuJarly widows,this t:f.me of t'L:! year when they find it so d:ffficult with fuel. Actually we do r:·ake a difference in Labrador. I thjnk it is nineteen dollars a n· onth they get :f.n .•

'arch 4, 1977 T~pc 741 JB-3 ~"l'. JWETT: excess of the regu]ar allowance. AN HON. r'El'BF.'P: Fuel allowance? Fuel aJ.lo•,•ance. But I cannot conceive of any way that we could make a regulat:ton for one particular area. 141'.. SPEME P : The l1on. member for Terra Nova. ~rr.. Speaker, a question for the hem. Min:fster of Finance :in the absence of the 't-'in:f ster of ~fanpower e~nd Inclustrial :P.elations. I "i70nder if the ministe .r is in a position to inform the House as to l-rhether there are any new developments "-rith respect to the strlke at the HaterforCI Hospital? lv'R.

SPEAKEP: The hon. ~"inister .of Finance • ..fR . DOOPY: 'M'r. Speaker, no .. I am afraid that I c~. nnot ~as l!lUch as ., I would like to,tell the House that there have beer: any changes in the situation of the labour problems at the Waterford. The governl!lent's position is still as it was. l.Ye have made overtures to the tmion,and lve have offered them certain chanres in their pension plan. ~!e have offered to sit down and disc;uss w:ft"h them any anomaJ ies or any differences that they might feel that are there • . ~

March 4, 1977 Tape 742 PK - 1 Mr. Doody: The union refuses to discuss anything until they get the full and complete Constabulary pension issue: 'settled to their satisfaction. That is not negotiation. Sir, that is confrontation, and, you know, it is just impossible to deal under these circu:nstances. In the meantime, as I have said ~the people from Manpm.:<!r and Industrial Relations spent many hours trying to find some way to get the thing straightened out, but it is still unfor.tunately not resolved. SOME RON • MEMBERS : A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The original questioner has a supplementary.

MR. T. LUSH: I wonder if the minister would als· inform the House as to how many workers are on strike? What is rhe approximate nmnber? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I think it is approximately 500 peorle on strike, Sir. MR. T. LUSH: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The original questioner, a supplementary. MR. T. LUSH: Five hundred?

I think a couple ~f d2 _,, s ago the minister in answer to a question related to numbers nf people working there, I think he said there were three thirteenr:· ,:n shifts from the Constabularly makes thirty-nine, and I think he ·.aid there were fifteen to twenty volunteerso If you add these numbc ·:; together, I make it to be about thirty-thre .e per shift, and what I am getting - this looks like with 500 people out of work that thee would be far more people than this on an ordinary shift.

So I ac:. just wondering how the minister can justify this with his statement that the patients are being cared for adequately when the nurr ':.ers are down substantially? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Yes, but the question that I answer d was how many police officers are on duty in there, and how many v~>lunteers are on ~)('· .-F .. ~ ,,.,.,·,~ ')1.)

March 4, 1977 Tape 742 PK - 2 Nr. Doody: duty in there? And I answered that quite accurately to the best of my knowledge, that there were three shifts with about thirteen men each from the Newfoundland Constabularly who have been doing their duty admirably and \o7ell. We have had the volunteers from various departments of government, and various other agencies amounting to as many as t~venty per shift for a total of about sixty, thirty-nine and sixty is pretty close to one hundred.

We have the administrative personnel and the other people who work at the hospital the nurses, the lab~and ex-ray people, the non-allied profession 2l workers, who are the psychotheraptist and others, and I think they total close to 180 perople. There are also additional RNs, reg::-stered nurses who have been hired over and above this particular g ~' ~: up. And there are other nursing assistants who have been hired \>Jhi <1 brings a total number of people available for working at the hospital somewhere between 380 and 400 people are available, ~· ncluding the medical staff. MR.

NEARY: That is a gamble, but are they actual.:i.y \vorking? MR. DOODY: Well the 500 people who are on strike, let us not for a minute suppose that all 500 are on duty every :.tour of every minute of every day of every week. These people a :'. -;o were' divided into shifts, plus extra people in case of sickness c .· missing or vacations and so on. So you can divide that 500 by · , and subtract from them the people who are extra for fill-ins, fo·r vacations and sickness and so on. There is not all that signific c : ly large numbers of people who are now absent from work as cc ·pared to those that were before.

I do not mean to mislead the Hous .•. , in trying to suggest that all the things that were being done in · 1cre before the strike are being done in there now. But what I can : , sure the House, witnout hesitation, is that the standard of patient care an c· ~ :11edical services that these patients need is being maintained by thes · people, to whom we are eternally grateful, despite the fact that the people who are on strike are not at thel:r jobs.

Harch 4, 1977 Tape 742 PK - 3 HR. LUSH: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The original questioner, a supplementary. MR. LUSH: Hr. Speaker, I cannot seem to justify the numbers in my own mind that the minister is putting forth. Now probably there is something that I do not understand here. But in the answer that he gave to the House the other day, the hon. minister said "That there were three thirteen man shifts per day." Now does that mean that one shift of thirteen? :HR. DOODY: Yes. MR. LUSH: One shift of thirteen. MR. DOODY: Three thirteen shifts. MR. LUSH: Right, three thirteen. MR.

DOODY: Thirty-nine. MR. LUSH: That is thirty-nine total. MR. DOODY: Thirty-nine total. MR. LUSH: Right. And with respect to the volunteers - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to the hon. gentleman that in asking a question they only state such facts as are necessary to make the question intelligtble. So I would ask him to proceed to the question. MR. LUSH: Okay, Mr. Speaker, thank you. Thirteen policemen and a maximum of twenty volunteers to my mind .. - ..... ,-J . • . )~~a- r-" rw'"l.·

March tf, 1977 Tape No. 743 NM- 1 HR. LUSH: make the maximum thirty-three per shift, according to the minister's ans"t-rer recently, make it thirty-three? }ffi. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I was asked how many policemen are on duty and how many volunteers are on duty and these are the numbers that I gave. That is thirteen per shift 1which is thirty-nine total per day, twenty per shift in volunteers, which is sixty total per day, and these are the people about whom I was questioned Pnd these are the people about whom I aswered.

There is also the administrative staff, the management staff, the physiotherapists, the nurses and the outside nurses who have been hired since that time. And then now i f you want to devide that into shifts you can also devid c the 500 people who are on strike into shifts, so you divide the 500 by 3 or by 3 and a fraction because of the overlap in vacation times and so on. That is a numbers game. MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER : The Leader of the Opposition. I will recognize the han. member for LaPoile after for a supplementary. HR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary grmo1s directly out of the ans,vers the minister has been giving and po:::; sibly I could ask him to tell us straight out,instead of both sides trying to get around it by the numbers. Normally there are 160 people per s·,;ift, less those who may be ill or those who many be on leave .. And let us say there are 140 per shift. I do not know wha ~ the figure is but it would normally take, in my opinion, 130 t~ 140 persons at any given time to run the Hospital for t'-:!ntal and Nervous Diseases, as it used to called, the '"aterfcrd Hospital.

And of course the 500 on strike does not include the management

March 4, 1977 Tape No. 74.3 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: and administrative staff, so they are in addition. So normally there are 160, Mr. Speaker, my question - HR. DOODY: You mean employees now. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry. MR. DOODY: The total employment at the 'Haterford on normal occasions is about 680 people. MR. RORF.RTS: So there are 180 non-union. HR. DOODY: That is right. 1'-ffi. ROREPTS: Okay. HR. DOODY: Non back union. MR. ROBERTS: Non NAPE, 180 not on a lawful strike •. So there are 180 available for work out of the normal 680. MR. DOODY: That.is right. ~m.. ROBERTS : Okay.

So we have 500 who are not wor,·king because they are on a la>V'ful strike, Now the real qmestion, Mr. Speaker, and what my friend is getting at, is hoxH many people, including the Police and the volunteers, ~.;re cannot count the office and administrative staff because we hava excluded them from both sides of the equation. 't-1R. DOODY: No ,you ha':'e not. ~. ROBERTS: All right then, Out of the 680 who should normally be there, Hr. Speaker, hm-1 many are there? I will mut them on both sides of the equation. There normally are 680 people to operate the Waterford Hospital.

How many are there r.ww given the fact that 500 are on strike. We have 180 plus 39 police officers, so that gives us 220, instead of 680. So we are short 460. Now my question then is how many voiunteers are there? We will narrow it down to volunteers• lTiow many volunteers are there to do the work of the 460 who \would normally be there'l HR. SPEAKF R: The hon. Hinister of Finance. HR. DOODY: You know that is an over-simplificat .. ion,obviously,

Harch 4, 1977 Tape No . 743 NM- 3 }ffi. DOODY : because of the shift work. Yo"u are assuming that the 180 peorle, who are of the normal complimentary staff are still Horldng their normal weekends and their noroal days off and their no:onnls evenin3s. AND HON. '-{P fBFR: In their normal jobs. HR. DOODY: In their normal .i obs, Hhich they are not doing. You will find that most of these people are working sixteen hours a day HR. ROBF.RTS: They cannot keep that up very long. MR. DOODY: Hell,you know-,that is not part of the question. lVe can debate that perhaps, I do not know.

And I an not a participaction person and I cannot begin to imagine the stamina that some other people have. MR. ROBERTS: I understand the hon. minister participates. MR. DOODY: What I am saying is that you are going to get soon in to the realm of man·h~urs that are involved in this thing and you are going to get into an entirely new thing. So it is really not that relevent - HR. ROBERTS: Yes it is. Sure it is. MR. DOODY: - in terms of the man-hours that are available for patient care.

Now a lot of the people wh~ are volunteers and so on are washing floors, \vashing laundry, cleaning up generally, doin~ a lot of the things that have nothing to do \vith the immediate patient care.

The nursing staff, the hospital staff, the doctors, the physiotherapists, the occupational therapists, the non-allied I professional \vorkers, the lab and x-ray people, the outside nurses \vho have been hired extra, the registered nurses, the RN 1 s who have gone in, the nursing assistants and so or who have gone in have increased the number of people available in terms of hours of work that is being done in there out of proportion to the actual total numher that you will find when you come together with all these things.

March 4, 1977 Tape No. 743 HR. ROBERTS: I ~-1ill rephrase my question, in person-hours or man-hours or - HR. nonnY: lvell I would have to go back and get the calculator out and try to find out hov1 many there are, you knm-1. •:>{'\ ~1. ,., .. _ ".i NM - 4

Jn-1 YP, SPEAKF.P: The hon. t"'ember for LaPoiJe, a supplementary. MR. NEAPY: '"r. Speal·-er, I 't.'Clulcl like to ask the trJin:fster - well,first of all let me just throH this out as a

preamble. Hhen the ~,rorkers ,,rent on strike there "to7ere a number of employees :fn that bar~aining unit ~'ho v.rere on sick leave. Will the minister tell the House if the sick leave for those Hho are in the barga:f.ning unit has been cancelled because of the strike although the empJoyee is still under the care of the doctor? noes the minister underst;md the question? There were R number of etrJployees in the bargaining unit on sick leave. Has the administration of the Faterford cancelle~ the sick leave and put these employees on strjke status? t'R. SPEAKEP.: The han. ~inister of Finance. YR. noonY: } 6 r •.

Speaker, my understanding of the system as it works - and I am not familiar with this particular instance but I . . a.m familiar with a like situation un<ler the liquor store employees situation last year - those people Hho are members of the stdke unit and 'Who "'ent on strike lvere not paid "rhile they were on strike.

And ,,,hether they are on sick ]eave or "to7hether they are on vacation or whether they are on a picket line from the strH~e point of vielv I think "'onJd be immaterial to the admin:f.stra~ion because they have elected to go on std.ke as is their democrat:· ::: ri r.ht under the system and having exercisecl that right they have (' >sassodated theMseJves from the hospital and therefore, as my understanc'~ " of the situation is, they are not e]jgible for pay. I think that ' s the intent of your question.

Now there are people in that cat< ~ ory at the Haterford .,r ,.rould assume,;:~nd the same rule ,,rould ct pply to thell'. YT' .• NEAPY: A supplementary, ~fr. Speaker. ~'l'. SPEAKFP: A supplementary. vp, NEAl'Y: I assume from the min:f.~ter 's ansver ~ hen that all sj d: leave immaterial of whether it happenec before the· strike, that all sick leave at the Haterford has been cancelled. lfP, ~PEAKEr: The hon. Vjntster of Fin;mce. t<n. n()0DY: He have not cancelled any sick leave. PJ 1 ~,·e have cancelled is payi.ng people "'ho nre on strike.

~fT'. NEARY: Hell that ls the same thinr,. I mean, a rose is a rose hy any other name. "'~ SPEAKE?: The hon. member for Terra Nova. HT> LflSJl: Pegarc:Hng the Paterford ag;dn, l~r. Speaker. .t\[':ain fr0 m my fipures I gather that there are thirty-three people per shift, that is the non-profess1.onal t-rorkers not countjng the Manap,eMent and the professional people. The quest:ion is, I t·londer jf the minister can tell the House hot.: close is that to the normal quota, thtrty-three people per shift give or take, you kno-vr, probably it is forty? The minister ~ay have made a mistake ~lith the numbers.

But let us say rny figure according to his anstver it is thirty- three but supposing it is forty, hatv close are these firures to the normal "tororking· routine? How many people t•Toulrl be there normally? !-~. . SPEAKE?: The hon. Minister of Finance. r"P. DOODY: Once again I cannot really ansver the ruestion in the t-ray that the hon. member would li.ke to have it ans~·7 ererl because he pre-supposes,Jike the Leaqer of the Opposit:ion,that each person is l>mrking under the same condit:fons that he 'tvorked prior to the strike.

There are many of these volunteer nurses who have ?;one in there for instance - and one of Hhom,incidentaJly, is mv td.fe of tvhom I am very prourl - vrorks - HR. NEARY: The Porkers are not very prouc~ thf':"'. ~"T'. D00DY: 1i!ell that is their privilege. I a111 nrivHeged to have a Hife who is responsible. She works sixteEn hours a (~ay. That is two shifts. So that ls two nurses in effect ,,::;.nd there are others ~no are doing the same sort of thing. The volunteer thing is not a auestion. If there are sixty volunteers in there nm-1, it !'dmply means that that is all that they need.

There are many, manv 1'10re people ~no have volunteererl to po in there. Tlere is a list up in control central, as :1 t ,.rere, of people who have voJ unteerec:l and are villinp and anxious to ro fn and rlo any sort nf job that they can clo. A'iS. HO~~. NEJofBER: Hhere? Control central.

~'nrch 4, J 977 IB-3 MR . RlDEOUT: Whrrc is rn n trn] crntr~l? ~ m nnnny : Jt hnpp~:>ns tn he 1'1)' rlr>slr, So the nuf'lher of people Hho are actunJlv jn tl,<.>re is not prop0rt.inn~te to the amount of work that is bein~ ~nne. The iT'lportRnt point nf thr mAtter is that patient care is not heing jeopanlizu 1 jn the 0rininn nf the ncdicn] authorities "'ho are in controJ of t.lle situ,1tjnn. The cl.·w tl1<1t they tell us that there is R brea'!ri!o~m nr a clet:erior<'ltinn nr a p;ohlern in that area - ~'P. NFA~Y: Can you tell us how many are working at the waterford or what? ~1'. DOODY: 1Ii1J vou p 1 eAse, ~'r.

Spe?.ker - ~ ~P.. SPEAKEP: Order, pleC'Ise! Or~er, pleRse! \fP-. DOODY: 'T'he clay that the '[Tieoical people ,.,ho are i.n charge of the operation in there and to Hhorn \ve responcJ, to 't-7hose opinion l·le bow and vmose a.r1vice 'He seel ~ and ctccept, the minut e that they tell us that there is a pro1,le1"' or ct c1anr,er '"ith patient care, then governl'!"ent Hi] l be forced to t<'lke "t.rhatever action Ji s necessary to see that that situation is corrected. r>j_ght nmq Lhat problem in the opinion of the ~edica] profession is not Apparent. J ~ ·75 lJ All Dr·' one furtl1er S 1.:pplementa.ry. The hon.

Mernher for Conception Bav South. T·7e, 1 i~e I m" sure t 11e bon. l"dnjster, have received 1'\any c:-aJ J s fro1"'1 peop] e jn there Hho ar.e ei.ther on strike or are Forkjng there. I h;~ve a t~''C rart C"Juesti on if it i :s permissable: how many are f!ualifjed and h;we any expe.r:ience in psychiatric care; and secondly, hoH long can thi.s

March 4, 1977 Tape no. 745 MR. NOLAN : go on before the government makes a move for binding arbitration or something? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. DOODY: I guess thnt was a three-part question, Sir. The first

part is that I do not really knov1 how many of the extra people in there have psychiatric training. I cannot honestly ans~..rer that, because I do not ho.ve the information with me. As to how long the strike uan go on before government takes some active steps to stop its going on through binding arbitration or ,.,.hatever, the answer is">once again, I do not know. It is a legal strike. And as I say,both sides are holding their own position. As long as that happens, md there is no deterioration of patient care, I think government's responsibility is to respect that strike.

And as for the third part of the question, which was , - or what? - I am afraid I do not know quite how to handle that one at all, Sir. ORDERS OF THE DAY: HR. HICKMAN: Hotion (1). HR. SPEAKER: Motion (l). Notion, the hon. Minister of Fisheries to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fish Inspection Act," crurried. (Bill No. 20). On motion, Bill No. 20 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. Minister of Consl!lller Affairs to int:L'oduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Real Estate Trading Act," carried. (Bill No. 27).

On motion,Bill No. 27 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. Minister of Heal!th to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Hospital Insurance (Agr,rement) Act," carried. (Bill No. 29). On motion Bill No. 29 read a firsr time ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

~brch '~, 1977 Tape no. 745 Page 2 - MS HR. HICKHAN: Order 1. HR. SPJ·:,\I~ER: Order 1 - the Address in Reply. The hon. member for 1vindsor - Buchans. s;yrr, HO~~. }'E!!J3ERS: Hear, hear! HR. FLIGHT: Hr. Speaker, the sub-amendment now reads: 11And this House further regrets the action of the ministry in agreeing to borrmv the sum of $50 million without providing prior opportunity for rlr_,h;; re jn th.:! Pouse .n Now, Mr. Speaker, we regret, I regret, we all regret, the government having borrowed $50 million without prior approval or without debate in this House. }rr.

Speaker, I am not sure of the legalities here, whether or not the government contravened the Loan Act by borrmvi~g $50 million. However, I am certain of one thing1that if they did notcontravene the act, they certainly went outside the spirit of the act. Mr. Speaker, this House was sitting when two \veeks after the }linister of Finance j_ndicated to the House of Assembly that the government had completed its borrowing for this year, approximately two weeks after that he stood in his place and announced to the House that they had borrowed $50 million from Alberta. ~!r.

Speaker, there are all sorts of QUestions which can be asked about this loan. I mean how does the rate on this loan from AlLerta compare with previous loans made by the Province of Alberta to other interests from the same fund? ~.

.. - T:me 746 MT-l Fe all remember, Hr. Speaker, h!O or three years ago , or maybe less than that ,-v1hen the Premier of this province ,.;as the only Premier from Maritime Canada that agreed ~._rith the Premier of Alberta's right to increase the cost of oils and gas. And that had the affect , Mr. Speaker, of shafting the people of ~~eHfoundland v!ith regards to the cost of enerp.y. He hav·c no-v7 seen the fruits of that support and we have now seen the fru ~ ts of that capitulation,that one day when the Newfoundland government needed that type of a thing the money would be there. l~r.

Speaker, hm.; will this $50 million be spent? r.-!r. Speaker, the problem here is,. and let me be very Sflecific,,,re do not trust the han. crm·Td on the other side of the House, we just do no t trust them. Hr. Speaker, this is t1ie same crm._rd that castigated the previous administration for their fj.nancial- So:t--f.E RON. MBmERS: Oh, oh. HR. FLIGHT: - castigated them Mr. Speaker. Rut, ~ ~ · r. Speaker, I remember nm-1 the hon. Hinister of Finance of the day.-, the hon. Ninister of Justice , and the han. member is gone to Ot'!tawa,saying that Newfoundland is bankrupt. SOME HON. HEMBERS : Hear, hear! :HR.

FLIGHT: He are going to go into receivership .. Fe owe almost $1 billion . And in six years this han. crow·d have tripled that debt, have gone through almost $3 billion. And you voted for every - NR. FLIGHT: And this was the cro-v1d .that ~ood,·7inked t l1.e general public of Newfoundland into thinking that the prpvince of Ne,..rfoundland was aJmost bankrupt. So, Mr. Speaker, '"e just do not t·?·ust them. and I was a little surprised yesterday when the hon. rne: cher for St. John's East got up on a point of order and defender.;. the right of the government to do this without prior debate.

MR. ~fARSJTALL: I iii d not do that.

Barch 4,19 77 Tape 746 AH-2 HR. FLIGllT: The hon. member indicates he (H.n not do that, and if he said so then I 1vithdra1v it. As a matter of fact,all I should say is that I 111ill he very interested in the hon. members remarks in this rlehate,and the hon. member for St. John's Nort'h, because rir,htly or ~vrongly ,and I have no desire to embarrasfl eHher one of the hon. gentlemen, that they have had their times cf falling out >vith this administration over their financial polif.y. The ~- situation on the other side right now, Hr.

Spf'aker, is they are sitting in the !lOSitions they are sitting basically because thev have refused to go along Hith the hanky panky of this !!overnment tvith regards to financial dealings. SOHE HON. NEHRF.RS: Hear, hear: HR. FLIGHT: Does anybody in this House realize, ho1:v many members in this House realize that the provincial debt of Ne"rfmmdland today is almost equal to the total earned income in this prcvince ,that tve owe as much money as is being earned by all the peoDle ~.;rho are working in this province? That is some indictment. Speaker, again- MR. NOLAN: They were going to cure all that. 1-!R..

FLIGHT ;: This is the government that came in and 'vas going to cure all this • This tvas the government that was goinp.; to- everything that they did t·muld be done 1:vith the appro\ ·:11 of the Pouse of Assembly. ?-fr. Speaker, the hon. }finister of .lustice referred to the fact that tve cannot have any provincial public -.,arks goin~ on because Ottat.;ra- now this is the hon. crowd, Hr. Sreaker, that got eJected on the platform that tve will not go to Ottatva begging, tve will not go to Ottawa tvith our hand out. And, }1r. Speaker, yesterday the hon.

Minister of Justice got up and criticized Otta~v a ~'or not giving them enough when they do go be~ging • NR. NEARY: So they ~vait and give them more money for the Norm::\ anrl \,];t o ys.

Tape 746 All-3 ~· R. ?lF.AP.Y : The !finistcr of. .Tustic e n~C'ds m0rc> mnne>v for h is cxP.cutivc <'lS!dst:mt . ~f;.! • FT.IC:llT: No wonder Ottat\la is reluctant to pass over any more fun ds to this hon . crowl Hhen they see the t-Jay thev have spent '~h at has heen passed over this past three or four year s . tlr . Speaker, t h e reason there is no nuhlic Nork going on in this nrov:i ncc tod«v , Nr. Speake r, is because this hon. p,overnment cannot fin d the funds to put into public Ha r ks .

Hot" Hould the Hinister of Justice like, hot-~ '"ould he like to have the $165 million you borrowed a couple of vears ago -to l· ick Brinco, to get Brinco out of Labrador? There is not a person in Ne~v fou n dlard today that is benefiting by one iota by that $165 million. Maybe some of. the $50 million you are borro wing is goinR to go to pay the interest on that p~rticular loan . SOME ~ON . HEHBF:RS: Oh , oh! " .• \ I ' \ • > .,.., /,lt() """\ .; 1\

Jfurch 4, 1977. Tnpc 7~7, Pn~~ 1 -- anh HR . fo'Llr:JlT: Maybe, and then, Mr. Speaker, mnyhe - HR. 'ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, a quorum call pleA-se. DisRraceful! Disgraceful! There is no quorum. Hould the Clerk of the Hon s~ count the members, please. There is a quorum. ~1R. MURPHY : Is there an Opposition? MR. DOODY: Question! Question! 1·1R. SPEAKER : Question? Put ~he question. MR. HI CK.MAJ.'l : The question is put. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, - HR. DOODY: No quorum calls in our hockey gamrs. MR. ROBERTS: Even for you, that is purile. MR. DOODY: The written agreement shoHs no quorum calls during hockey games. MR.

ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, to a point of ·rrder. l.Jhat agreement was there about no quorum calls during a point of hockey- or during a game of hockey or anything else? I have no knmdedge of such information. The bon. the member for IH:c1sor-Buchans. NR. FLIGHT: So, Mr. Speaker, - ~ffi.. J. CARTER: You are being impossible. MR. ROBERTS: And you have to keep fourteen here or there will be more quorum calls. MR. FLIGHT: So, Mr. Speaker, the Provir:::e has borrm-1ed another $50 million, $50 million that they tell us l.Ji' 1 be sitting around to spend l.Jhen they are ready to spend it. Mr.

Speaker, I was talking 'lhou t the Churchill Falls and the Lm-1er Churchill deal. This ?'JVernmert, this administration. have conunitted this Province to $2Sn rillion horrm-1ed money, Mr. Speaker, on which l-Te are paying interest, ~hat has not served any purpose to this date • No one in NewfoundJmd has hf'nef1. ted. .... r:·:. ·o 1:.1 ·' (

j) March ~. 1977, Tape 747, P~v,e 2 -- aph MR. VLHiHT: Now if the government had the horrm.;ring pm.;rer that they lost ,.;rhen they borro'tiTed that Money today, they would not have had to go to Alberta to borrow $50 million under any circumstances. They Hould not have had to ignore the rights of thfs House. We talk about jobs in the puhlic service, loJe talk about jobs funded by the public treasury.

That '"ould have given this administration the ability to put $5n million a year into fueling the private sector and creating the type of jobs we need around this Island to stop the massive unemployment we are witnessing. The reason we are in such straits in the unemployment situation, Mr.

Speaker, is because up u~til a year ago ,or tv70 years ago 1 most of the lvork that v1as done in this Province was being done by people - most people did not realize they were working for the Government of Newfoundland .• The Province v1as funding the hospitals and the electrification programmes and the roads and the overpasses and the schools, and suddenly, suddenly when we deci&ed to nationalize BRINCO, to buy it out, the monies that l-rould

Harch 4, 1977 Tape no. 748 Pa13c 1 - mw Mr. Fli ght. have been spent over the next two or three or four years was used for that purpose, Mr. Speaker. And today - it would have been unpatriotic to have opposed that move two years ago. But today we are seeing the fruits of the financial capers of t~is administration. 'fuen some hon. member on the other side rises to speak, I would like for him to point out to the House one benefit that the $250 million that has been sunk into the Upper and Lower Churchill at this stage, one benefit for the people of Newfoundland. All that has happened, Mr.

Speaker, is that we have restricted the borrowing power of this Province, we have restricted the province's ability to prime the private sector, we have restricted the Province's ability to provide the essential services, and in denying tLo.t ability, we have guaranteed that there will be massive unemployment in this Province for years to come. So, Mr. Speaker, so much for the borrowing, the borrowing and the financial policies of this adm1~istration. Now, Mr. Speaker, what will the money be usEu for. You know, we are sitting there with $50 million.

Hill the Cabi:st now say the heck with restraints, we have $50 million, let us go on a spending hinge? You know, spending money like drunke1: sailors. Will it be used to finance another caper like the Norma a:'d Gladys? Will it be used for grants to organizations over which t~ : : administration have no control at all? AN RON. ME1'1BER The Buchans Boys' Club? MR. FLIGHT: Some of it, I hope, Mr. Speaker, just a little wee bit. 'Ull it be used to keep the gove::-nment jet flying, Mr. Speaker? Will it be used to keep the fishing cz;~ps going, Hr. Speaker? \-.1hat will the money be used for? MR.

MURPHY: To a point of order. I hear thL about the ,;.-.overnment jet. The government has no ·jet to my knowledge. HR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, to that point of or:er, Sir. The government does have a jet, Sir, whether the mi~.ster cares to admit it or not. Churchill Falls Corporation is O\vE ,l by the government, owned by the pcoule of this Province, and they have 1 jet. So indirectly ~ ~ ,l ~ ) !1 ~ ~~) t' ~..: .. " ~ J<' ~ • .;1

Harch 4, 1977 Tape no. 748 Page 2 - mH Hr. Neary. the government has a jet, which they use incidentally for going back and forth for grocery shopping between Newfoundland and Montreal. MR. BRETT: The Leader of the Opposition uses it as well. Too bad you do not get the opportunity, too. HR.~EARY: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, I believe Your Honour has to rule on the point of order, one way or another. MR. SPEAKER (Capt. Winsor): The Chair thinks there is no point of order. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You know, Mr.

Speaker, it is po ss ible to be accused of being irresponsible in some of the things that might be said in this debate. But I think it is a legitim a ~e concern to ask this administration, Is the fact that they went to Alberta to borrow $50 million- that they are not going to us e,so they say, for a year - is that an indication, Mr. Speaker, that they are afraid that they may get the cold shoulder in the markets that they normally borrow in? You know, is our credit still to a point in the European markets or the American markets that we would have no problem borrowing?

Or are you getting in ahead of t :- :~ storm, Hr. Speaker? I have heard the han. member for Twillingate (Mr. Stt.=. ::. l wood) ~ the first time he spoke in this House last year, he indi c<,ted there was a word he would not use, he was too much of a patri : ~ic Newfoundlander, he was afraid to use it' it made him cringe. And th 2 word, Mr. Speaker, was 'bankruptcy'. It came out after. And there are some real concerns from responsible people in this House and outside th ~s House that Newfoundland is reaching the point of no return, that they are getting to a point that they cannot borrow any more money. Mr.

Speaker, having tripled the rrovincial debt in five years, six years now almost, wha·t have t:-tis administration got to show for it, Mr. Speaker? I can stand here and justify the $1 billion provincial debt under the previous administration. l can point to the

Nnrch 4, 1977 1·!r. Flight. schools, the churches , the hor.r>itals , the rural electrification , the Trans -Canada Higln11ay is th e ten per cent , municiptll financing . It Has there. There "'ere thin r;s happenin g , you knoH~ There •·1as an oil refinery there . The Linerboard mil l was ther e . Tell me one a sse t t hat this Provine ~ has today as a r esult of almos t triplin g the provincial debt , one thin g that points to how tha t $2 billion was spen t. It was spent in intere st, Mr . Speake r , in lots of cases .

Tape ~~o. 749 NM- 1 ~1P.. FLIGHT: The monies we are borrowing today will he spent servicing the debt. ~.Je are borrowing $50 million from Alberta of which the most of that money will have to he spent servicing the debt. Now when the Minister of Finance stan,_·1s in his place in this debate I would expect him to tell this hon. House Hhere the mont>y will come from - unless we see a move made to generate revenue and generate income in this Province, where will the money come from to service the debt a year down the road, two years down the road? Mr. Speker, I assure you the han. member for St. John's North (Hr.

Carter) that I had no intenti cn at this stage - MR. ROBERTS: Unless he provokes. ~1R. FLIGHT: - of going unlimited. I have said,I suppose, what I want to say. I \.ranted to point out the arro~' s.nce, Hr. Speaker, of this government, the arrogance of this administration,to borrow $50 million that they can use for any purpose. Number one, whether or not they contravened the Loan Act is not the issue. The fact that this House was sitting,it displays their lack of concern for this Uouse, their arrogance, Mr. Speaker, and I, if for no oth e~ reason, the finances of this Province, Hr.

Speaker, .'.s the responsibility of this House of Assembly and if for no other reason that to point out their complete lack of concern for this House, their complete arrogance, then I wiJl vote for this sub-amendment. Thank you, ~r. Speaker. ~m. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. }~. SPEAKER: The bon. memher for LaPoile. sn•-m lYON. ~HBF.RS: Hear! Hear! MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, I find myself in a simiLtr position as the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans, Sir, and I ~m afraid that I am r,oin~ to be forced to vote in favour of t :1e sub- • _ _,_r· ' -r:-­ ~'-·,,..J~

Harch 4, 1977 Tape No. 74CJ Nl'.f - 2 ~m. NF.A RY : amendment. It is a very good amendment, Sir, very timf"ly indeed. It could not come at a better time, '"hen we find the administration going off and negotiating, the Premier negotiating privately with the Premier of Alberta for a $50 million loan for this Province. Now, ~r. Speaker, the first question that popped in my mind is why should the Pre~ier of this Province; and probably without prior consultation with his Cabinet - MR. DOODY: You are wrong. MR. NEARY: Well maybe I am Yrong. The Minister of Finance can correct me when the minister stands. Mr.

Speaker, I will deal with Dick Greene's buddy in a vew minutes, Sir, if the hon. member would just relax and enjoy himself. Mr. Speaker, I doubt very much if there was prior consultation with the Cabinet.

The Premier went off and probably indicated to Premier Lougheed the difficulties that this Province were having and was going to have in borrowing in the future, and probably begged Premier Lougheed,over a meal one evening said, "Look Premier you have got all kinas of money out here as a ~esult of your tax that you put on gas and oil going dmm in the Uni.ted States and the royalties that you put on your oil anc1 gas at the '"ell head. You have got more money than you ;.· now what to do with and we are dmro there, we are paupers.

And it looks like we are going to run into difficulty in the next fiscal year in our borrowing, so can you let us have a few dollars?" Hr. Speaker, I do not suppose anybody in this House is naive enoup,h to think that Premier Lougheed just out of a clear blue sky, out of the generosity of his heart said to the Premier of this Province, "Look.we are going to loan you $50 million. You have not asked for it but we are going to give it to you," without a hint, w:fthout even a subtle . npproach to the Government of Alberta, without even just p,iv:f.ng them a little

T<JpC' . •o . 749 NT'{ - 3 ~~ . NE-\QY : btr, hrond hint th<tt He n('ed the- money, ve are desperate . As my hon . friend .iust said, probably headed into hankruptcy . And 'Premier Lougheed ,being a bud dy of course of our Pr emier - I clo not know if they attend ed the S<lme school or not - S<:'.id, "Sure boy , I wil l bail you out. \•le '-1ill give vou $50 milHon hut ,.,e are going to charg e you ten per cent . " Now, ~fr . Speaker, is that such a good deaH Is it a good deal, Sir? The minister told us there a couple of weeks ago that over in Europe I believe they negotiated a deal for slightly over nine per cent . MR. DOODY.: That is a t'tvel ve year money .

March 4, 1977 Tape 750 PK- 1 Mr. Neary: Twelve year money. This is twenty-one year money which will cost the Province more, $5 million a year. It will cost this Province $120 million roughly, Sir, $120 million to pay back that loan to Alberta. Ten per cent is not a great triumph, Sir. It is not a good deal for this Province. Quebec, Mr. Speaker, Quebec~which is threatening separating from Canada,can borrow money at 9.25 per cent, 9.50 per cent, 9.75 per cent, so, Sir, the interest rate on that loan is too high. But that is not the most significant point.

I think the most significant point of this borrowing, Sir, is that it is undermining the authority of this Legislature~ that_ the government is dragging a red he~ring into this issue by saying~ Well we did not borrow all the money "t-le needed that we could have borrowed in the last fiscal year. Sir, what was the rush? Why was the matter so urgent? Would not Premier Lougheed have agreed to loan the Province the money a month from now? Two months from now? Wha~ was the rush, Mr. Speaker? The rush was, Sir, to try to create a good impression in the money markets of the world, especially North America.

That was what the rush was, Sir, to ~et the Province off the hook because their reputation in the money market was so bad. It did not make one bit of difference, Mr. Speaker, if that $50 million could have Haited until the new buC:.:z2t was brought down, and the minister told us the budget was going to be brought down the end of February, in all likelihood, and here it is now the 5th. of March, and we still have not got the buget and no indication of when we are going to get it. It will probably be a couple of more weeks, two or three more weeks before the budget is brought down. So there was no rush, Sir.

It was not a matter of urgent importance. The agreement between this Province and Alberta could have waited, and it could have been debated here in the Legislature, and we could have strived for a better bargain with the Government of

March 4, 1977 Tape 750 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: Alberta. Mr. Speaker, what a contrast between this loan that we are getting from the Province of Alberta and the money that the minister is taking out of the pension plan contributions that are made by the employees drawing their salaries indirectly and directly from the Public Treasury. Here we are, Sir, paying 10 per cent interest to a Province that has so much money it does not know what to do with it- and they are talking about being patriotic, we are trying to keep Confederation together-and that Province charging us 10 per cent.

If they had given us 2 or 3 or 4 per cent, 3.50 per cent I might have said it was a good deal, Sir. They are the wealthiest province in Canada. today, and we have to pay them 10 per cent on that $50 million loan, while the minister himself, Sir, is running into all kinds of snags, all kinds of problems, all kinds of difficulties with employees 1 pension plans. And the minister is taking the contributions from the employees'pension plans and using it in the general revenue of this Province~ithout one cent interest, without paying one cent to the employees. MR. MURPHY: That is not a fact, Sir.

MR.NEARY: That is a fact, Sir. They are not getting any interest on their contributions, Sir. MR. MURPHY: That is not a fact. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I submit there are no bterest rates. The Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment obviously is the expert. Well perhaps the - . ·· MR. MURPHY: No, I know a little about it • MR.

NEARY: - perhaps the minister will get up, Sir, in this debate, if the minister is allowed, if they are not a ~ l muzzled in this sub-amendment, the minister may, be able to get u~ and enlighten me as to how much interest the government is paying f~r using the employees' contributions towards their pension. Mr. Speaker, I submit that the government's sticky fingers are in the cookie jar of the pension plan contributions, and they are being used. L .

ITI-1 The mjnister l:noH.s that h:is coJ]eC~r;ue is not r5pht. The pen s ion plan i_.c; not fnnr 1en in this Province. ThPre :is p;oin? to he TTJore trouble. Rut it :is a funnv thinp:, lTr. Speaker - I TTJirht clravr it to the attention of the House - that over the last co11pJe of years, in the last ye~r or so the hip problem in negotiations between e~ployees and the ~reasury Board and the minister, the controversy seeTTJs to have cevelopecl over pension plans and pension ri~hts, not ~ · ~<'lges, not sick leave, Sir, not fdnpe benefits, but over pens:!.on plan rights and pension p]an contributions.

That should indicate sorr..ethi.ng to the minister, Sir. It should indicate that H is about time that this government, Sir, establishec empJoyees 1 pension contributions and employees, rates of pensions on an actuariaJly sound hasis. YR. J. CARTER.: Just pronounce actuarial. YP • NFI\PY : I can pronounce, Sir, nick Greene. I can pronounce skuldu f gery. I can pronounce s:>.voury. I can prcnounce absenteeism. I can pronounce members who do not do the jobs for their districts. I can pronounce, Sir, under-the-table deals. I can pronounce corruption. lffi • SPF..AKEu: 0rder, please!

I ~·Tould request the hon. gentle!T'an to return to the sub-amendment ; please. Yes, }'r. Speaker. That all has to 2o Fith the sub-aynendli'ent- corruption, patronar,e, poJ :i tical p.:> tronap;e, corrupt ion of the "mrst kind. Hr. Speaker, what guarantee ~o t..re have that more of this money, this $50 million, is not going to p,:o out to my hon. friend's bucldy, the fnl"l"er ha)?:l"lan for th:ls partv,and to Scrivener ~eHfounclland Lim:l ted that rippec't off th ,"! people of this Province from anY"~ere to $7 mi1Jino to $9 njllion when that meTTlher is supporting that a~ministration.

Tf T h~d my files here, S:ir - T sent for them - and I ruarnntee you it :Is about time DO'-' we rot thi.s He:ll th ScJI"nces romplex thin[' nut jn the open • .John, ,,rould you check 'd tl1 mv secretary tn scf" if she brourht the fil(> np. Pe Hill pnt it nn th:~ tahle of the House once and for

1 '.'1reh 1,, 1 f'J77 'I';JpC' 751 H-2 all and Hatch thnt - you c::mnnt refer to an hon. ncl"'lber as a rat, Sir, I realize that - but .4ust V-'rttch the rats le<~vc the sinldnr sl-tip. 'rahle it. I ~ro roing to tahle it, Sir. )'T-1. J. rJ..P.TI:P : JTm.; mnny years rtgo~ Pm..r l'T'any years ago. Yr. Spe8_ker, ove 1~ in J'!ew BrnnsHi cl~ they are talldnP, noF ahout corruption, rip-off s, sh1l duggery. Thev are talk]nr about it goine back to 1972. Hell I , . .rill p.;o back to 1973 or 1974 w·hen the hon. rnel'T'ber Has a l'T'.ini.ster o-f the CroPn. r'l'. J. r./I.PTET": Table i.t.

I .<~m ~oing to table H H I ever get it. I will put the Mef!lber on the table before I am finishe~ · ~.;ith him, Sir. But, ~fr. Speaker, talking abqut the prevailin? rates, Sir, of contributions and benefits paid to the employee ' , it is about time that the government put :f.t on an actuarially sound :::>asis. Pnd then if it wishes, Sir, if the government ~dshes to bnr-r-Ot·J from these funds that they pay the prev.<~iling rates of intere:st for such loans. '!''r. Speaker, I '1-muld subrn.H that the pension plan~, are presently being T!'ish8nc1lec1 by the administratfon. I '"ould subnd t, ~~r.

Speaker - I do not knoF b• ,. a use I cannot support it, I do not think the l'linister could cont ··,'lclict '!'le - but I '!-cOuld say, Hr. Spe!'!ker, that forty-five, even Jc ,,s than that, I ~mu]d S8Y t~V"enty to t't-renty-five years from now the employees' pension fund wHl be bn.nknt pt. (<_J ,- ~ ·J: )~ .. nonrw: ~rr.. NEAPY: they pay in. r'· (InaucUbJe)'-.? Fell ,.,hatever it is, \vhatever the co:-· ~ributions, Hhatever ~·r.

Speaker, what I :\1'1 sayinr, is t'l :.t Phen the eMployees tl·]enty-five years froT" nm.J, the number of employc ·es forty-five years from now RD for their pensions, they will f~nd that the cupboarrl is b<Jre. "T'. nnnnv: Accordinp to the other one, your hon. colleapue, we will nll be han~rupt by then. l1c h11 rf' . /Inc! T '·'C'\11 d stlp;~e s t , f, j r, t h<1 t :it is c:

Mnrch 1,, JC)77 Tape No. 752 w-1 - ] ~m. NE!IRY: high time, Hr. Speaker, htr,h time that the r,overnment, the Minister of Finance, Sir, take steps to fund the employee~ pension plans, even if it has to be done out of this $50 m1llion that the minister is presently borrowing from the Province of Alberta. And in future, "to7hen the minister does p,et his sticky little fingers dmvn in the contributions from the employees - 11R. DOODY: Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to rise on that one.

In all honesty,this minister has never put his sticky little fingers into anybody's contributions and I want that stricken off the record right now. MR. J. CARTER: Name him. Apologize. MR. DnODY: And I want an apology as well,Your Honour. MR. SPEAKER: The point brought up by the hon. Minister of Finance is certainly a valid one. Anything stated which either directly accuses or suggests that-kind of impropriety lvould be out of order. I ask the hon. gentleman to ~vithdraw it. }1R. NEARY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I withdraw it~ ~fuile I do not care what kind of fingers they are, but the minister just leave his hands off the employees contributions. ~1R, DOODY: Sir, that is not a withdrawal. This is i ust beyond comprehension. Is the House going to allaH r.he bon. gentleman to leave on the record the implication that I have had my hands on employees contributions? I think that has to be - NR. NEARY: As Minister of Finance, yes. MR. DOODY: Do not whiffle whaffle on this one. ~. NEARY: I am not whiffle whaffling. HR DOODY: I want this lvithdrawn Your Honour _ NR.

NEARY: Do not whiffle whaffle on the t.J'aterford Hospital either. HR. DO()DY: - and I want an apolor,y,or I am walldng out of this House here this morninp,.

'-!arch 4, J 977 Tape No. 752 NM - 2 ~R. S~EAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have already withdrawn th~ statement. ~1 R. SPP.AKER: Order, please! After the first point of order I dirl certainly hear a withdrawal from the hon. member ~ then I heard a rephrasing or a paraphrasing instead of fingers, reference to hands and certainly where there is any likelihood of imnutation or dishonesty in that I think there should be no doubt left, it should be withdrawn and no suggestion indirectly or in other words.

I would ask the hon. member to ~7ithdraw .it unequivocally and not to make further references or paraphrasing of the remark objected to. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, there lo'as no intention on my part to accuse the minister of skulduggery, The mini s ter is twisting, Sir, twisting what I said and I withdraw it$of course, any motives that I attached to the minister, Sir. But as the Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker, that minister is responsible for the employees' pension contributions. And as Hinister of Finance, Sir - MR DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, in all honesty and I ver~, very rarely get upset or I very, very rarely rise and I '-" ery rarely get involved in this sort of discussion, but I am not satisfied that it has been stricken from the record of this House the implication that I have had my sticky fingers, or my sticky hands as the hon. member refers to them. It is still on the record of this House a:-. :! I want him to apologize and I want the hon. member to withdra~.; it, as you have suggested yourself, Sir, i r revocably, and I want it done, Sir, I think and I deserve to have it done. '· ~. NEARY: l-!r.

Spc<1ker, I have already, Sir, witl-,.lrawn it. I am not r,oinr, to crawl to the hon. minister immaterial of what

Hnrch 1~, 1977 Tape ~o. 752 NM - 3 HR. NEJ\RY: he thinks, Sir. He may be hurt but he will be hurt more hefore I am finished, hefore the day is over. }ffi. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. ~m. ROBERTS: 'Mr. Speaker, the Hinister of Finance has raised a point of order. It is I think the second or third time he has raised it and I can certainly understand, I think any one of us would be offended if an implication or an imputation or a statement were made questioning our personal honesty. And my friend from LaPoile C<r. Neary) is certainly saying some hard things about the minister's conduct of office.

But I do not think anybody feels he is questioning the minister's personal honesty or integrity. And, Hr. Speaker, Your Honour ruled that the 'hon. gentleman's comments from LaPoile were certainly open to that internretation. The bon. gentleman withdrew them. So that should end the matter. The comments cannot be stricken from the record. I l;lean they are in the Hansard and the bon. gentleman from LaPoi le has withdrawn them as he was required to by Your Honour. He then rephrased them and Your Honour said that was out of order and directed him not to refer to it again and I have not heard him refer to it again.

I do not think hf' is required to apologize. Your Honour did not request him or c ' rect him or tell him he must apologize. So really the matt~ r should be settled there. I would submit it is quite in order to say that the minister in his ministerial capacity is net using ftmds the way they should be used. That is a matte~ of opinion, a matter for debate.

It is certainly completely di fferent from saying the minister has, you know,in effect t ~k~n funds for his own use, whatever name is put on And if the r,entleman from LaT'oile left himself OJ1en to that ir.terpretation I think he has cleared it up by doin~ as Your Hono, ~ r asked him to do and withdra~~ it. And I think we should get on with the debate

:1:1rch t,, 1977 Tape No. 752 HR. R()T\f.RTS: and let the gentleman from LaPoile say what he wishes and then other hon. members, subject to the same rules as the hon. gentleman from LaPoile is subject to,can say what they wish. 11R. lliCK'A"AN: Mr. Speaker. - '

Harch lf, 1977 Tape no. 753 Par,e l - mw HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. 1:-!R. HI CKHA...'l' : To that point of order. The han. Leader of the Opposition, I sur,gest, is begging the question. Your Honour directed the member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) to unequivocally withdraw that remark that Your Honour placed and this has not been done. HJL NEARY: It has been done. You were not even in the House. MR. HICKMAN: I was in the House, and I was listening very carefully, and I would suggest, Your Honour, that the edict from the Chair has not been complied with. MR.

SPEAKER: I previously, when the point came up the first time, directed the hon. member to withdraw, which he did. There was then a second point, and I pointed out to the hon. member that he would be out of order to suggest or imply indirectly what the rules would not permit him to allege directly, and I understand that he did withdraw then those remarks. While he was speaking, as I recall his words, he had withdrawn them, and then ended up with a but, and I do not know obviously what the han. member was going to say after.

Up to now - I mean,any number of things can follow after the word 'but 1 • But I tU.nk it is extremely important to empahsize that with respect to a person's personal capacity or motive,then there should be no ~eferences directly or indirectly to suggest any impropriety. ,;.nd I wish to suggest the distinctlon that an han. member has the obligation of making in criticizing a minister for the conduct of his department, in his capacity and exercise of his judg~ment as a Minister of the Cro~vn for the government,and perso~al reflections. And it is the latter which are totally out of order.

To the best of my understanding the hon. gentleman has in fact withdrawn. The last word I heard him say was 'but!. And to now he has said nothing after 'but'.

Harch 4, 1977 Tape no. 753 Page 2 - mw HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. HR • NF.ARY : Hr. Speaker, I ,.,ill eliminate the word 1 but 1 • But the Minister of Finance, Sir, is responsible to this House, has to answer to this House for the employees• pension plan contributions. And I am suggesting to the minister that the government or the ministry - I do not care which, Sir - never again use employeesJpension plan contributions without paying interest to the employees, that it be funded. And I know the minister is very sensitive these days.

They are smarting under the questioning, the cross-examination, and the criticism the minister has been getting in the last couple of weeks, most of it self-inflicted. It would be far better someti~es if the minister said, "No comment," instead of trying to be witty and smart alecky. But, ~rr. Speaker, this $50 million. Hr. Speaker, from what I have seen of the performance of this administration over the last four or five years, Sir, why you would hardly give this hon. crowd a five cent piece let alone $50 million. Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman who keeps interrupting me is supporting an administration, I would submit, ' that knows more· about political patronage, Sir, than the former administration ever he~rd. And I think I can give the House an example, Sir. T::::.t is '"hv we should not put that $50 million in the hands of the ~linister of Finance and the gentlemen who make up that administration at the present time. They cannot be trusted, Mr. Speaker, and I can give the House an example. MR. DOODY: Table it. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I will table it. Mr. Speaker, I asked the hon.

Premier a question today during the Oral Question Period about the financing of the Health Science Complex and the Internal Committee that the Premier set up last year to look into consulting fees, the engineering fees, and the management fees, and otl1er arrangements at the Health Science Complex, and the Premier

Harch 4, 1977 Tape no. 753 Pap,£'. 3 - mw Hr. Nearv. brushed it off by saving, 110h, yes, the conunittee was set up, and they have done their work, and there is no need for any further investigation." !'fr. Speaker, before we all the $50 Tiilillion to fall into the hands of the present administration I vould like to tell the House that I am dissatisfied with that a'ltsv:er, ,.

}inrch 4, 1977, Tnp e 75/f, P.1r, c 1 -- aph HR. NEARY: and I am not satisfied that the matter has been thoroup,hly investigated, and I think, Mr. Spenker, now that ,.,e have a scandal over in NeH Bruns1vick over party contributions and so forth . that it is about time, Mr. Speaker, thnt we protected the taxpayers of this Province and brought the matter out into the open and ask for a royal commission to look into the spending at the Health Sciences Complex and at the C ~ rbonear Hospital. Now why do I say that, Mr. ~peaker?

I say it because I have here in front of me, Sir, an affidavit that was made out a few years ago - as a matter of fact, the date '..ras 1974. They are talking about corruption and scandal in Ne1.r Brunswick in 1972. 'Pell, Sir, all you have to do is ;;:o back three years in Ne,.rfoundland, 1974, when a gentleman "1ho was a former manager of Scrivener (Nfld.) Limited made an affidavit, Sir - MR. J. CARTER: ~lr. Speaker, to a point of crder. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ A point of order has come up. MR. J. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gen~leman has some document or something or other over there on his table which he has been quoting from, alluding to and about to quot2 from. I maintain, Mr. Speaker, that it is an abuse of the pr Lvileges of this House for him to be allowed to do so unless he i s prepared to table it. MR. SPEAKER: Certainly if the hon. men: · ~ J er is going to quote from a document, then the hon. the member for St. John 1 s North (}fr. J. Carter) is correct in saying that it !",;;st be tabled. If an hon. member has something and uses it for note ,; then I do not think it is required.

If the hon. gentleman is goin , · ~ to make quotations from it, then it should be tabled so that -.:1ll members have access to it. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, Hr. Speaker, I mentioned a few moments ago that I was dissatisfic i with the way that that investigation was carried out by the Internal Conunittee • . : ...... .r·.~.~ · · ~ · ~ 1'- .. ·~·o.:J

Narch 4, 1977, Tape 754, Page 2 -- apb l-fR. NEARY: I think the Premier should have ~one a step further, Sir, and I recommended to the hon. the Premier on May 18, 1976, I w-rote the hon. Frank D. Moores, M.H.A., P.C., Premier, Gover~1ent of Newfoundland and Labrador: "Dear Mr. Premier: Naturally I welcome your decision for an investigation into the administration of the management firm hired by your predecessors in government to supervise construction of the Health Sciences Complex.

I do however think it lvould be much better, both as evidence of sincerity on the part of your Ol-ln administration and for the people of Newfoundland,if you added to the investigating committee at least one member of the staff of the Auditor General's Department. I would also suggest that your terms of reference to the Committee indicate an explanation as to why some weird procedures,on the part of ministers,were used ~- 7hich more or less gave Scrivener (Nfld.) Limited a free hand to operate without any contract until the government were forced to take over and correct this situation.

It would also, in my opinion, be highly advisable to include scrutiny of other Scrivener projects in this Province,with special attention to the Carbonear Hos~· ital, rather than having to go through the same procedure again ·: a later date. Why not clear up", I said, "the whole action, ~ he lvhole matter of the Scrivener stewardship over the expendi. ·. ure of millions of federal and provincial dollars in the last four or five years?" And the Premier wrote me b.: :;k May 14, and he said. "Thank you for your letter of May 10, 1976, -with respect to the Health Sciences Complex.

I will take into cc:csideration your suggestion that a staff member from the Auditor General's Department be added to any investigating committee. In addition, government will take into consideration your two fuc.her suggestions

March 4, 1977, Tape 754, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: with respect to Scrivener Products Limited before any terms of reference are indicated to the Committee." Now, Mr. Speaker, I learned this morning during my question to the hon. the Prer:1ier that this \vas not done. This was completely ignored and~therefore, Sir, I would say that the internal investigation was a whitewash job. Mr. Speaker 7 I also wrote Mr. Ron. S. Basford, Q.C., M.P., the Minister of Justice and Attorney General in the Government of Canada.in connection with this whole matter of the Health Sciences Comples spending. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please~ I should draw to the bon. gentleman's attention that his remarks have to, and his participation in the debate, has to be on the topic of the sub-amendment, the regret of the ministry in agreeing to borrow $50 million without the prior opportunity for debate in the House. He will have to keep his remarks related to that subject. MR. NEARY: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for LaPoile.

Narch 4, 1977 Tape 755 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: Of course, Mr. Speaker, nnd I am making a prima facie case, Sir, of why the administration should have came to this House, and why they should not be given this $50 million,because they are completely irresponsible. And I am making a case of w: :y we should not put any more money in the hands of this administro:. :ion unless and until, Mr. Speaker, they agreed to a royal commission ~ o investigate the alleged skulduggery that went on over at the Carbo :.1ear Hospital and over at the Health Science Complex. MR. J. CARTER: Table the document. MR.

NEARY: So I wrote the Minister of Justice, Sir, Mr. Basford~ and I said since Federal funds provide the principle SDurce of finance for the Medical Health Science Complex - MR. HICKMAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. ~fR. HICIOMN: Your Honour has ruled-or the Chair h:· s of your own volition that the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) reading a letter, commencing to read a letter to the Attorney Ge~1eral of Canada is not relevant to this debate, and I gather it. is the same letter that the hon. gentleman is now reading again. MR. RO\lli: Mr.

Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Trinity-Bay de '.· ::rde. HR. F. RO\-.TE: Your Honour did advise the member fr (' - ~ LaPoile to keep particularly to the topic, and the member from L: 'aile did get up and say that he was using this as an example oi why the government should not be trusted with this $50 millio1 And the member continued on with his argumentation and he did :·: t get interrupted by the Speaker, so I assume that he was i' cder. MR.

SPEAKER: Certainly the general subject of the :~ pic of the sub-amendment is the action of the ministry in ag" ~ eing to borrow $50 million \·lithout prior opportunity for debat ·2:! in the House. And as I pointed out debate would have to be relevant on that. The hon. member then submitted that it was his intention t~ show reasons why he was supporting the sub-amendment or why the go• .. crnment should not have

March 4, 1977 Tape 755 l'K - 2 Mr. Speal;er: done what it did; and if the remarks are related in that manner then he Hould be in order;if it were a general debate on the Health Science Complex then obviously that would be irrelevant. But as long as the han. member keeps his remarks related to the subject matter then it would be in order. The hen. member from LaPoile. MR. NEA?Y: I submit to Your Honour that I am again, and to the House, and I know that the Minister of Justice does not want to hear this, Sir, the Hinister of Justice knows what is coming.

The Hinister of Justice will try all his parliamentary arguments, and technicalities that he wants, but the hon. gentleman is not going to shut me up. PREMIER MOORES: Let us do it outside of the House. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I - I am doing it in the House, Sir, which is my prerogative, And I will do it outside, I have already done it outside. Mr. Speaker, I submit that I am making a prima facie case of l-lhy this hon. crowd should not be entru.sted with $50 million. That there is too much patronage, and there is too much skulduggery, and there are too many underhanded things going on, Mr. Speaker. MR.

HI CI01AN : Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order. HR. HICK! !AN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has, in my opinion, cast reflection upon this House and about bon. members of this House. For any member to stand in his place and say that the hon. gentleman opposite are not to be trusted with the money because of skulduggery is unquestionably one of the most unparliamentary utterances that can come from any han. gentleman. And I refer Your Honour to page_lOO of Beauchesne, Paragraph 111 (h) "Imputations against members of corruption in the exection of their duties." Now, Hr.

Speaker, - and there are a dozen others, thousands of them. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. HR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. mel".ber.

March l•, 1977 Tape 755 PK -3 MR.NEARY: Hr. Speaker, the han. gentleman did not give me a chance to finish my sentence. I got cut down in full flight, Sir, and if the han. gentleman would just sit back and wait for me to finish the sentence perhaps the han. gentleman would be satisfied that I am conpletely in order, Hr. Speaker. 11R. SPEAKER: On this point of order.

There is no doubt thnt it is quite out of order to make any personal attack or any imputation of motive, allegation -of dishonesty, and I would submit that the allegation of skulduggery,!£ that refers to the action of members of the House,which would include ministers, then it would be improper. It would be out of order. And I again draw to the han. gentleman's attention the distinction between a criticism of members for exercise of their ministerial responsibility in administration of government, and personal references, the latter being out of order.

Now the term skulduggery, if that were to be applied to han. gentlemen, then it ~vould be wrong. The han. member from IaPoile.

Tape' 7':Jf, rn-1 vr. Nfo'i\PY: }~r. S'fleaker, I Wl.f: llhcmt tn say that as a result of the sloppy husjness procedures, the sloppy way that this a~rninistration carries ont its business, that outsicle of this hon. Honse, Sir, there are a number of reopJP,hecause the thing is ~·dc1e-open, Y r. SpeHver, the thing is wicle-open- and I have a good reason for sayinr that, I have the exampl£' here in front of me - for skul clw·gery, Sir, by people outside of this House. t-{r. Speaker, I Hrote ~·r. Rasford on April 15, 1(! 76 in connection with the affidavit that I have on my desk.

And I said, r:~ance federal funds provic1e the principal source of finance for the Hedical Health Sciences Complex under construction here in ;) t. John's for the medical facultv of Pemorial ~rniversity, the endosed affidavit by a former executive for the project managers mip ~- t: be of some interest to you. There ll"_ay or may not be a possj';le misspendinp; of federal money both in the form of kickbacl <s to :·;d ividuals anrl to the P.C.

Party of Newfoundland, and also through the failure to call public tenders. '!It ~,·auld appear that in the interests of the :'eople of ranada . and honest citizens of this Province~~~r. Davidson 's st<'ltement,{~~r. An~v naviC'son, a forrner project manar:er over at t '.•: Health Sciences Complex) in !'arch, 1974 shoul~ receive more than :: · t passinr-; references to cletermine if ;:m invest1r.atjon is necessary anc · !:e neect for appropriate action by your department for any pas :.- ble subversion of public funds. 11 vr.

Basford ~·rote me back on ~·ay 10 and he sa i :1, "Dear ~ 1 r. ~eary, this is to acknowle~ge Fith thanks your le t ?. r of April 15, 1976 with enc]osure respecting the constructi0n o~ the '~dical Science!'l CoiT1p]ex at ~t. John's. The matter you h.· e brought to my attention :f s indeerl serious ·. I have referred ti ''-' enclosec1 to rey 0fficials in the nepartment of Justice for t~~ ~ r further cons i.clera t ion. nnce ar,nin, thanl ' vou for hr:fn!',in r- this mntter to 11'Y at tent ion. 11

~·;-~ r rh /, , 1977 Tr-2 ! ' T' t:ff."Y: ~m.J, ~'r. Spe<'lker, there i.s no v1ay, S:fr, tl,at I can aRree after - ancl that is only part of the inforMation, Sir, part of the docuMentation - there is no v..'ay th<>t I can agree to allo~dng this nc1~inistration to have another $50 mi1 1 ion. I coulcl not aJ lo"-' thAn, -;- cou] d n0t in conscience, Sir, allm·r them to have another ni.ckJe un]ess they c;:,n prove to this House that they are capable of lookinP after that $50 million and to see that H is spent t..dsely in the interests of the people of this Province and the peop]e of Canacl?..

Nm.J, }'fr. ~peaker, ~·Je have heard a Jot over the last couple of years about reforms in politics in this Province and so forth. He have hearc ahout and we have seen court cases de velop over - not by any member sitt:ing in tlds House but by people ar,ain outside the House. Some of them noH are incognito. So!'le 0f them are not allowed back into Canacla.

And ,,,e all re!'lei'lber the witch hunt that the ac1ministration 'tvent on after January 18, 1972 ~,,hen they formed the administration of this Province, the great 'dtch hunt that took place resulting in soMe of these people nm,• being not allo,ved back into Canada. After that, Sir, 'tve heard all about party.refo~, about politic<'l .l reform. t.Je "to.Tant them back in r.anac!a. They ~ r-e FelcoY'le back. ~f1'. NEAPY: Thev are v'~lcorre bad·.. l'lr. Speake1 · . "'e have he arc all about reforms in politics in this Province an0 s o forth 8.nd so on.

Hell, Sir, there has been no evidence on the ;•art of the adl'linistrati0n,al though 't-.'e have heard a lot of ,_ip service, that they are going to reform our poJitical system that tas over the years become so corrupt that the - not the a~minis r~ ation now, our politicAl system, Sir - has heco!'le so corrupt that is it any wonder that the ordinary person has become cyn:f .cal e~bout ~heir politidnns Rnd have ~ecC'Ime cl:fsiJlusioned ;md t 1:fsenchanted Fit h thE> How~e of Asse!'lhl y and 'lodth their gov~rnl'T'ent. t<r.

Spe:1J;er, I thour-ht for a PhiJ.e thnt there ''.:u; so!"1e hope that ,.,e l,Toulcl T£'fOTl"' the rol:fticn] system of this Provilce. tl .'t:" t-r ,,, .... / ... ' t tl ';J

Harch /1, Jr"J77 T;1p!' No. 757 N~1 - 1 HT~. NEIIRY: As a J'Tlatter of fact, Sir, the present administration camoai{'ned in two or three elections on political reform. No evidence of it, Sir, and another reason why, ~.fr. Speaker, another reason why I am not prepared as a member of this House, as an elected representative of the people of this Provi nce, to allo w another $50 million to go into that kind of system,Sir, where a lot of it will be picked up along the line by people outside of this House in forms of political patronage, graft and corruotion. Mr.

Sneaker, we all know that the poli t ical system in Canada, in Newfoundland, is more corrupt than it is in the United States,in my opinion. Political parties get their donations from big business, from money b~gs - MR. DOODY: Db not be stupid. It is brin bags. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, although very rarely do you get a documented case, although it is very rare, Sir, in the history of politics in Canada that you get a complete documentation of contributions to a political party~ well Sir, I have got one in front of me. I have one in front of me, one Mr. Richard Greene was the bagman for the PC Party. }rr.

Richard Greene is alleged to have done some weird and wonderful things to collect money for the administration. MR. DOODY: For the Party. ~tR. NEARY: For the Party,rather. Mr. Speaker, according to what I have been told that in the period betw·een 1971 and 1972 general elections in Newfoundland - I only have five minutes left, Mr. Speaker, so I will have to come back to this again at a later date. MR. ROBERTS: Sub-amendment. MR.

NEARY: But I have no intention of dropping it, Sir, because of the situation that developed over in 1-le,., Brunswick yesterday when we heard about all the graft and corruption and skulduggery, and dishonesty that is going on in that Provirce, ~!r. Speaker. I feel morally oblir,ated, Mr. Speaker, I am bound in conscience to protect the taxpayers of this Province.

Tnpr ro. 7'37 NH - 2 '1'-1 .• N1\i\RY: I aTTl r:oinr-: to tlo it, Sir, hut, "'-fr, Speaker, and I am nre;_;;_: ;_-Ll! to tah] c .""!.] J the docu~•t(·'ntation in connection ~ 'r-. .. JlTCVIY: At some future date. ~m_. 1--1fAP.Y: •;o, ~ir, not r~t some future date. Mr. Speaker, I have in front of me copies of cancelled cheques, I have an affanavit fron a forTTJer manager of the Health Science Complex. I w~s invited to go and see the hon. the Jrernier and the Hinister of Finance dmm in the private dining room Hhere they tried to braim.;ash me. I had Mr.

Richara: Greene come to my house and spend three and a half hours trying to ln·ainv7ash me. }fR_, DOODY: They 'tvere looking for it; they were not trying to wash it, ~R. NEARY: And, M:r. SpP.a1:er, I have certain other documents and certain other letters in connection with this v~y serious matter, very serious matter of corruption, tthat I am pre-oared to lav upon the tahle of the House. I ha~ done my tw!'1e\wd : . I \,'rote the Income Tax rcople about eais and I have none iust ahout everything there is to do, Sbr.

I understand the ne~.;s media - you taJk a"f)out timidity, Sid the neHs media have been in possession of this info:mation for the last t\..ro years and have done nothing about it. As a matter of fact I was approached once by the CE8 from Toronto and asked to go to Toronto and do a story or this hut I would not do it. If it is gain~ to be done i1 will be done in this Province. Mr. Speal:er, there is need for a r~al commission, and I am prepared to withhold these documents if t~ Premier r~nd the ndministr:ltion \vi] 1 ar,rce to srt up a roynl commission.

If tlwy dn nnt \,rnnt pcn;onn1 itics :m(t n:1rncs and the facts hrour.ht out jn the llousf', broupht out :In the newspcpers,then I •') (

~!n rch t,, JCJ77 Tnnc No . 7) 7 NN - 3 !·IP. . NF.A~Y : apnoint a roy<'ll cornrnif>sion. And I Hill give t hem n reas onable time to do it before I come back on this debate agai n . ~-m .. ROnF.RTS: THenty-four hours? >:o, not t'-1enty-four hours, I may not l' r: t the chance to come back in the debate that soon . But if they '~ere smart, Sir , they ,,rould clear the air by appoin ting this royal commission that I am asking for for the l a st three or four years, and get this matter cleared up for once and for all in the interest of protecting the t.axpayers of this Province.

1-f.:Jrch 4, 1977 Tape no. 758 Page 1 - mw HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's East. HR, W. HARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I want to address a few words on this particular subject, but before I do, I would first of all like to purge myself of my political feelin ~ s so that I can become more objective afterwards. To hear the hon. members of the official Opposition castigate or question in anyway the fact that monies have been borrowed ~ithout legislative sanction, to hear the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary),who was a member of the former Liberal administration, castigate this government for ailegedly .not obtainin g approval of this House before it borrowed, to hear the hon. member for LaPoile, who was a member of a previous administrati on , castigate this government for not funding the pension plans w~ : e n the pension plans are as they were in the days of the p,··evious administration for quite some period of time, I can only liken it, Mr. Speaker, to be kindred to a person like the famous Happy Hoo; ~-; r 'l:•rriting a thesis on the virture of chasity. Because, Mr.

Sp ~ akert that is how ridiculous the position is and the point is. But the issue itself is a very ~portant one. It is alleged that the government, in its recent bor ~ o,.;ring of $50 million from the province of Alberta, has in ef :cct exceeded the authority which it has in order to borrow, th !' it ought to have brought it to this House of Assembly. Now be£ ·. : we get into that perhaps we should really - it would be benef L: '1 1 to this House - go over the actual situation with respect to borro -. ng as set down ... in the Financial Administration Act.

And I might r,. ate that this act was passed in 1973, and was the act that was ir :roduced in this House for the purpose of ending the practice c.:· secret Cabinet borrowings. Before this act was passed, as a resu ~ : of an amendment that was brought before this House in 1966 by the r m. gentlemen there opposite when they were here present, the Cabinet had the authority to borrow any amount of money it wished in secret ( .1.binet session, and

March '•, 1977 Tape no. 758 Pap,e 2 - mw Hr. liars hall. actually did do it year after year. Consequently the public debt mounted year after year and the public, if it was informed, \ia.S only informed after the fact. In 1973 this particular administration - j t was at a t:i.me \.'hen I wa s, perhap s it ts fair to say, a little bit closer to it or nearer to it than I am now-passed

an act in the Financial Administration Act which provided that no borrowings could be effected without complying with

Section 37 (1), with the exception of certain other sections. And what that meant was was that there could be no raising of money by this Province by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council, that is,the Cabinet, unless it was in conformitv with some provision of this act, of

an act of the Legislature. In other words, the Financial Administration Act gave it power to borrow for general revenue to meet expenditures~ and there were other acts as well that I understand give power to borrow to Crown corpo u" tions, the Hydro Act and what have you. But generally speaking}this act really cut off this practice of secret government borrowing. Now I know all members iri. the House agree that this was a good move. There were certain exceptions, and I mention those, because I will allude to them when I make reference to the bill that was pE .. sed last year. Under

Section 43 of the act, we were given pm..rer, t he: :;overnment was given pm-1er, to borrmv without reference to the Legis L· :.: ure for changing in the characteristic of the funded debt. L' .d the rationale behind this was that this was all right, be.: ause of the fact that it did not increase the debt load of this Pr ovince. All you were doing was just changing the characteristic o ~ the debt.

Section 44 of the act also made another exc er tion to allow the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council to borrm.,;r fo :· purely temporary purposes. And, of course,

t'rtrch 1· , 1977 'T';tpe 759 IB-1 this is necessary in or0er to ~eet ~ny particu]ar emergency which frl<lY exist as ~ result of your cominp, to the encl of the amount y0u <1re ~1] o\<•erl to horro"• unrler. the Loan Bill or for other circumstances. ~o there ha~ to be a power to borrow for tempornry purposes. But this was only then for temporary purposes. The other exception is contained in

Section 51 of the Act to give the ~overml'ent pol•!er to borrm ,, to meet its guarantees,because again the t-1hoJ e basis and phHosophy of the change was that this Jegislature or previous legislatures would at one time have to approve the Money whi.ch had been borrowed and the purposes for it. If it came to refunding or repaying guarantees':lor in the case of an emergency for temporary purposes,then you could borrow in the Cabinet. But tvhat the effect of this ]egi.slat:fon did - and I am very, very famUiar l-ri..th this legislation - Has to restore to the government-or to the legislature the pm;rer to borrm7.

Now since that time Loan Bills have been passed by the House and I have no illusions or pretensions in this parUcular Province, in the state of the lacl~ of any type of political consciousness on the part of the people,that this has been a move that everybody 'l:vaits to see hm,, ~uch lve borro\o7ed or the signi ficm; ce of the Loan Bill or "-'hat have you.

After all 9 if you clo have D Province t·!here a former leader can p:et up - we may debate the ar"cnm t - a former leader of the government can p;et up and say that _ P' ·b lic moni~s were borrowed to repay private donations during h:i.s t've t: ty-three years of trusteeshi .p,and nobody in the Province really cares too much about it, w·e cannot expect them to get too excited <Jhout the effect of this Loan nill. But H certainly is a beneficj al bill and ever since that amendment has been passerl,Loan Bil] s ,.,ere brought before this Ponse t<' authorize the expenditures.

The one Y.'e are nperating under now is Bill No. 45 of last ye.:1r \<•hich r01ve the - }m. P.(lB~T''l'S: Hhi ch rep] aces alJ previous ones. Is that correct? '-X"P. ~WPSTTALT.: Hh:fch reple1ccs all pr~vious ones. Because these bills

P;1rch lr, lr'J77 '1',1pc 759 J Tl-·2 only last for a yeRr anyw1y. 1'P T>()J3ET'TS: No, they lnst unt::il a new· one :is passed. ''T'. 1 '}.T'SFATL: 0l:a y, until R ne~v nne :is passed. T'.n t this rep] aced the prevjous bil1 and H eT"pcwerec1 there to he borr·0peo $197 rlill:lon for the purposes of meeting the cH~ference bet~v een the esthrated reficiencies betvreen. provindal revenues and expen~::itures and to provide for expenc1 i tures to repay, rene~,, or refunc1 in ~,rhole or in part any security ::i ssuec1 under this or any other act. NoH last year, Jfr.

Speaker, I noticed the last phrase in the Act,we were p.;etting to the end of the time and for reasons that are not necessary to go into at this particular time, I noticec1 the peculiarity of that particular phrase there empovering this $197 mHJion to be borroved for current needs and for repayment of debts. Because the 'and', the second phrase,~vas really unnecessary in m_y v::ie~v.

And realJy I think prohably - I do not know ~- Thether it is put in there by desip;n or. whether it ~-;ras put there becau$e of some legal ac1vice or vrhat 'have you'\but I can only speak as I see it and say that that particular phrase has no real place in t~1e act because the Financial Administration f,ct gives the pm:rer to borrow for those purposes anyvn'ly under one of those sections I a1l niled to a Tl'OJ'llent ap.;o, I think it is

section 41. So tbe point is ~ve hac1 $197 million authorizec1 1 ast year to be borrov.red, Sl97 m::ill ion plus. And it is <1 moot :mint <'iS to vJhether or not it is $197 million plus such amounts as may be necessary to repay existing indebtedness. I had thought indeed that that v.ras the purpose of the bill, and i.n effect what Y.re ,.,ere df'lin~ was that we were giv1ng the government re;tlly a cush:f.on of ~ 50 n:f.lUon or $60 million above its needs because, ~~. Speaker, l ast yeAr if you refer to the budp-et speech you 'dll find that the t:f'taJ C'lf!'ount that ll1as necessary to he borro~-;red "'~S

Hn r ch lt, J f1 77 /\11-] $197J11i11ion Hhich is ref]ectecl in this hill, but it HAS mAde up of aporoxi.mct.tely ~135 million with respect t0 current pror:rammcs, and $~? million for redemption in sinking fund purposes. So in my estimation \-lhen I saVI it last year ,and I thought that other members in t 11e llousP. understood it.,that this w-as to v.i.ve the ?C'-'C'rnment a cushion of hetween ~~0 or $6n million that they co~ld ~orrow in addition, and maybe this is Hhere the $50 million comes in. I ~..rould like to dVTell for .iust a moment on whether this should or should not bet and -.:..rhy this narticular

section comes in. I ~\lould say first of all that I do not favour myself the necessity of a loan bill for ariv more that the estimates called for current expenditure and only that particular amount for the year. In other ~..rords')I hai:I thou~ht that ·) when I looked at it last year, to be quite frank, that this loan bill should really be for $137 million rather than the $197 million and I felt auite sure that all members of the House realized ,.,hat He w·ere doing, that He were in fact giving a cushion of an extra $5() or $60 million as I say to the government.

Nm..r I did not speak about it at the time, I am not in favour of giving that -particular cushion and the only \·laY I can see it occur . Look,\trhen this measure first came al1out, and the reason I am fa:-.:iliar Hith it Has that it fir ~t came hefore this rouse, this particular measure to cancel borrowir .:, That was a financial decision. "HR.. HARSHAJ:.L: No, it came ,you knm..r - MR.

NOLAN: Oh, the Private 'Hembers 1 Bill. }fR.. 1f;\ RSHALL: Yes, the Private ?~embers 1 P.ill, there are certain people, I suppose we are all, have a certain amount of e~omania in us and there are certain people ~..rho ,when they are in c '-:arge of certain areas,~-lant to hrin~ in acts as if they ~vere their mvn conception.

But the fact of the matter is , the record Hould shm..r that in 1CJ70 Hhile a member of the 0pnoslti.on, 1 leci he fore tl-tis House :md i.ntroduced as a privnte mcml,C'rs hi.1l an amr.ndmf'nt to the then Revenue <md !IucHt Act ~,rldch \vas <>X:-Ictly for th:! .s purpose, P 1lich ,.,as to cut out this husinPss of secret borrowing.

~m. '!i\P.SFJ\LL : J\t the time,ns I sav,it met sav<1r,e opro.sition h~:causc it H<'l.s voted dmm, not unexp e cterl.ly ,by those \·Iho then thou~ht it was better for the Cabinet to be ahle to harrow in secret cabinet session. I do not think the Liberal Party ncn-1 espouserl. to this . hut ~ this is Hhat thev certainly \•!ere doing at the time.

Then 1:-.re came alon g to the stage of bringin~ this valuable polj C'l into e!:fcct in govenunent~~md uhile I found at the time, as ;a mer1ber of Cabinet ohviously I got ~reat support from the elcct ·ed members and the members of the Cabinet, I have to say that it received also savage opposition- savage T'lay be over stating it - h ut it certainly received opposition from those in the position of nublic service, permanent public service. And the reason for that- I beg pardon! MR. NEARY : There was no opposition in the House. MR. 'MARSHAJ.L: Oh no, there was no opposition in the House at all.

Everybody 1:-1as agreeable to it . But it did-because there is a conflict, and this is the whole purpose of the bill, th·c::re is a conflict bet\<7een the desires of the bureaucrats and ,.,h«r.t must be necessary for the elected persons.

In the case of the bureaucrats what they ~vant to do ,with all good intentions, they wa:.nt to have the pmver to borro\..r \vhatever they ·Hish at an" given time it is convenient \vhen the possibility of a favourable loan comes up, and you can understand that. :But from our point of view-~ and from the point of vi·c.vl of the elected representatives, the power to borroH and the po ,,•er over expenditure of money has really to be vested in the legislature, otherwise you loose the aspect of responsible governme- .nt.

So it was after. only after a great deal of debate, of trvin ~ as much as we could to accomodate and balance the tHo interests,that this particular act was brought in and it is a good one. Nm..r I just \vonder, and I make no- maybe "' should mar.<:.e this understood, I am makin~ no allusions, I am 1ust askin ~ this question to the ron. Hinister of Finance. when he rises to S'[)C'<l P.( I knm.J •

Hnrch 4 , 1077 760 /\11-1 he ,.,ill a<lrlress himse) f• to • it . I am ; ust t·lonoerinr, t.rhether or not the inc) usi.on of those extra Hord~ t·lhich rave the ext ra $5() nil lion, tv.:ts flut in there hv desir-;n or \vas it reall v put in t~ere, ano prohahlv I sl)ou lcl not he askinr. this hf:'c::tusE> von cann ot ask a ninistr.r did the civil servants <'ldvise hjt~ hut J rather thin}: it \-ras sl·1.0ved in hecause , ~r. Speaker, one of the things and I do not Hant to single out the ; ~R. ~lE/\P..Y: There is not ~uorum .

Narch 4, 1977 Tape no. 761 MR. SPEAKER (Capt. Winsor): Count the members. There is a quorum. The han. member for St. John's East. HR. ~- !:\RSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying before the quoru m interrupted, I do not know whether this is a result of advice from civil servants, but this I do know - there is nothing against civil servants as such. They have a certain job and a duty to perform, that they in the interest of bureaucracy wish to have everything, you know, very convenient.

But I do say on this matter of civil servants, and public servants - and I do not want to raise the issue - that one of the hardest things, and this is an indication of the difficulties inv.olved , one of the greatest difficulties any