Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Volume XL First Session Number 63 VERBATIM REPORT (Hanscird) Speaker: Honourable Pa trick McNicholas Wednesday 20 November 1985

The House met at 3:00 p.m. With the results announced today I feel we are a step closer to the MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas development of another oil field Order, please! in the Newfoundland offshore area. Statements by Ministers MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure today to welcome an announcement by Petro-Canada of another very positive test result from a new delineation well drilled on the Terra Nova geological structure.

This particular well, Terra Nova K-07, produced oil from two separate zones at rates of 4,125 barrels of oil per day and 3,930 barrels of oil per day respectively. Petro- Canada states, it is anticipated that on extended production tests the well should be capable of rates in excess of 20,000 barrels of oil per day, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that the Terra Nova Oil discovery was announced in 1984 and since then three delineation wells have been drilled. This process of delineation allows Petro-Canada to establish the recoverable oil reserves and decide how best to develop the Terra Nova oil field.

Petro Canada, Mr. Speaker, intends to continue this work by drilling another delineation well, Terra Nova 1-97. This news will be greeted with a great deal of satisfaction by the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Coming on the heels of the recent significant discovery at North Ben Nevis, it is a welcomed further indication of the highly prospective nature of the Province's offshore area. It not only gives legitimate increased expectations for developments in addition to Hibernia, it should enhance interest in exploration in the offshore itself.

I am very happy to note that any future development which may occur on Terra Nova, as in the case of Hibernia or, for that matter, any other structure where commerical quantities of oil and gas are found, will be developed under the provisions of the Atlantic Accord which afford to us full and complete management rights, the right to establish and collect revenues as if Terra Nova were located on land and the assurance that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians will gain fully employment from the resource. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have to say that I greeted the news when I heard it today with a certain amount of mixed emotions because, L3381 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3381

while it is good news for everyone, I have a certain amount of fear and trepidation about it. Because frankly, Mr. Speaker, I am afraid it will cause the Opposition such distress, when they get around to ferretting amongst the conflicts on the fifth floor amongst themselves, they might get so distraught that there is further good news on the offshore that, who knows, Mr. Speaker, I might even find Leo and Rex rummaging around in my basement tonight. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Set a few traps. Why do you not set a few traps? MR. MARSHALL: My hon. friend says to set a few traps. Mr.

Speaker, I will lock the doors, I will batten the hatches, I will secure even the sewer connection with the street, their most likely point of entry. MR. BAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: I understood the minister was making a Ministerial Statement on some of his duties and responsibilities within his department. I understand that that is what ministerial statements are limited to, and I would suggest that the minister get back to his Ministerial Statement. MR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order, I think the hon. minister might be straying a little bit, but there is no point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I certainly will bring my statement very relevantly to its conclusion. I mean, it has great effect on the people of Newfoundland, but I just want to say, Mr. Speaker, that I would hope that Little Grey Mouse and Squeaky would keep out of my basement tonight, and in future days, and not be rummaging around my own personal affairs just because we have such magnificent news for the people of the Province of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting to see the minister opposite get up and talk about my personal attacks on him. I think I have yet to say anything, Mr. Speaker, relating to him personally. However, he is regularly getting up and going on with his 'smear campaign', 'character assassination, attacking his family, sick, unstable'. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is so patently obvious to everybody in this Province except the minister that it is sort of sad to see how blind he is on this point.

Now, why does the minister not deal with the issues that have been raised, Mr. Speaker? He is looking very weak and very sick when he goes on with this sort of silliness that we see here again today. Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that there seems to be a change of policy in the Petroleum a' ri 12 L3382 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3382

* Directorate, in that the minister is no longer indicating the choke size, and I notice the releases from the companies have not been really indicating the choke size. The rate of flow is meaningless unless we know what size choke, what the size of the hole is that that flow is coming from. I would suggest to the minister that this looks like- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, look, day after day I get up here and the time is taken up by yahoos opposite with their interrupting. Could I have quiet, or are we going to have this chaos in this House? Now, Mr.

Speaker, it looks like it is encouraging. It is not a new discovery, as the minister has pointed out, it is a delineation well and it looks, Mr. Speaker, encouraging. There will be other wells needed in order to determine whether or not there is another oil field there; we hope there will be and it looks very much like there will. MR. J. CARTER: A slime field, would be more appropriate. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! I would remind hon. members that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) has asked for silence and I would ask that he have it without any problem.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the minister to get back to giving as much information as has been traditionally the case. When oil finds or delineation results are announced, it has been the practice to indicate the choke size so that it is then possible, Mr. Speaker, to determine just what is the significance of these numbers that the minister is giving out. Mr.

Speaker, I would also like to point out that it is time for the minister to start informing this House of what will be the cost of a barrel of oil from Newfoundland offshore, and what will be the revenue available at current prices to government from any such find, particularly when we take into consideration the fact that Mr. Mulroney has forced the minister and forced the Premier to give back 25 per cent of the revenue to the oil companies by giving up this Petro-Canada back-in. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council on a point of order. MR.

MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman got up on a point of order on me. The hon. gentleman addresses himself to the statement and now he is getting into a general area. I invite him to ask these questions of me as I did the other day. There is plenty of time, and I will gladly respond to him in Question Period. It is quite obvious, Mr. Speaker, that I can respond to the choke size, and I certainly will, but I think the hon. gentleman is operating on a very heavy choke himself and he is obviously L3383 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3383

choking very much at this positive information for the people of the Province. - Mr. Speaker, I wish to point out to hon. members a positive trend as indicated in the mid-November labour force statistics. MR. BARRY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: The hon. the minister is obviously not familiar with his job yet. He has not been spending enough time in the office down there to understand what a choke is. A choke is not light or heavy, Mr. Speaker, a choke is big or small.

I would ask the minister to go and spend a little time in his office, read up on the technical information, and then, maybe, he will know what a choke is, then, maybe, he will take time to read the Petro-Canada report, Mr. Speaker, which he indicated he had not read when he was saying that the Petro-Canada refinery was going to close down. If he spent more time in his office, Mr. Speaker, he might understand more the technology involved, he might get a chance to read a few reports, and he might know what he is talking about when he gets up and starts giving out these meaningless statistics. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, there is no pint of order, there is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. POWER: The statistics show - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. POWER: This may be humourous to members opposite - it seems that if they cannot criticize or condemn something, they laugh at it. Mr. Speaker, the statistics show 184,000 persons employed this October, which is 5,000 more than were employed in October of last year.

The actual unemployment rate this October was 17.7 per cent, down two full percentage points from October of 1984. So there are 5,000 more persons employed this month than there were twelve months ago. The unemployment rate, Mr. Speaker, is still much to high, but we are making progress in recovering from the recent recession. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, all of the poor members opposite are down-trodden when we make a good announcement. The fact we have 5,000 more people employed in this Province this month is a fact. It is a provable statistic.

If the members opposite want to argue about how many persons may have left the Province, or how many persons we did not have employed last year, or how many persons are not in the L3384 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3384

work-force, that is not what my statement is about. The statement is fact. There are 5,000 more people employed this month than there were twelve months ago. When we combine the fishery restructuring and the offshore development with our new job creation and training programs, I am confident that we will put many more thousands of Newfoundlanders to work over the next couple of years. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Again, Mr. Speaker, this is nothing but a self-serving statement.

What the people of this Province want, Mr. Speaker, is not a measurement of their temperature, but a prescription for the disease, the disease of unemployment that is gripp:Lng this land. The people do not want a report or the assignment of a grade, Mr. Speaker, they want remedial and corrective action. That is what we want in this Province. Mr.

Speaker, if the hon. gentleman is going to stand up here and take credit for any little rises in the employment rate, if he is going to take credit for the sunshine, he had better be prepared to take the blame next month for the drop, he had better be prepared next week to take blame for the rain. If this government wants to show that they have a job strategy programme for this Province, let the minister get in his place tomorrow and tell us by what percentage point unemployment will be reduced by next October. That will show whether this government has a plan.

That will show whether they have a systematic and methodical plan to reduce unemployment in this Province. Can the minister do that? Can the minister tell the people of this Province by what percentage points unemployment will be reduced by next October as a result of the job creation programmes initiated by this Province? The effort by this government to create employment for the people of this Province is nothing but a sham and a scam. What we have seen here today is nothing for a self-serving statement by the minister. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further statements by ministers?

MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House of the appointment of Ms. Deborah E. Fry as Assistant Deputy Minister of Labour. L3385 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3385

SOME HON. MEMBERS: The hon. the member for Bonavista Hear, hear! North. MR. BLANCHARD: She fills a position that, of course, was left vacant with the appointment of Mr. Noseworthy just recently as Deputy Minister of Labour. Mr. Speaker, Ms. Fry has been an employee of the Department of Justice since 1980. At the time of her appointment she held the post of solicitor with the Department of Justice. Ms. Fry has been legal advisor to a number of government departments, including Treasury Board, Consumer Affairs and Communications and the Justice Department.

In this capacity, she has gained extensive labour relations experience and knowledge. Ms. Fry completed her secondary and university education in Saskatchewan. She acquired a Bachelor of Science in Nursing in 1973 and a Bachelor of Law with distinction in 1980. As Assistant Deputy Minister of Labour, Ms. Fry will have major responsibilities for labour relations and labour standards programs within the Department of Labour. Mr. Speaker, I am confident that with the extensive knowledge of labour relations Ms.

Fry brings to the department, she will have the confidence and trust of both labour and business communities in this Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: We welcome the appointment of Ms. Fry as Assistant Deputy Minister of Labour. We welcome it on two accounts. We welcome it because the person certainly appears to be well qualified, a lot more qualified than other persons who have filled positions that we have heard about in this hon. House in the past few weeks. She certainly seems to have gotten this job by merit.

We also welcome the appointment of a lady to this very important field. I am sure many people will welcome a person of Ms. Fry's calibre and to see that we also have a person who will be fighting for, I am sure, the rights of women in the labour force throughout Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Before we get to Question Period, I wonder if the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) could tell us, since the Premier is absent again for Question Period, is this part of a deliberate strategy for the Premier to have the minister take the heat and avoid himself being associated with the conflict of interest matters that are coming up? Has the Premier said to the minister, 'You are on your own. Get this cleaned up before I come L3386 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3386

I back into the House?' MR. MARSHALL: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, just by way of information, yesterday the Premier was in Bay d'Espoir opening up the salmon hatchery, which was a very innovative, constructive measure instituted by this government to further the fishing industry. Today, he is out, Mr. Speaker, turning the sod at the extension to the Central Newfoundland Hospital, and I am sure the people of Central Newfoundland will be glad with respect to that $16 million initiative. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: There are enough ministers here to answer any questions that the hon. gentleman wants to ask about the public affairs of the Province. Oral Questions MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Career Development and L3387 November 20, 1985 Vol XL Advanced Studies. It concerns a programme, announced by him about a month ago, whereby $9.5 million was to be spent to help fishermen over this difficult period. Almost a month has passed, Mr.

Speaker, and fishermen are now finding it awfully difficult to make ends meet because of the bad fishery. A number of them are enquiring as to what is happening to the programme, is it going ahead or what? I wonder can the minister tell the House, first of all, when can we expect some programmes and projects to be announced? And will he indicate to the House, Mr. Speaker, why the delay? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to those two questions, one, we can expect an announcement in the next couple of days about the first series of projects that are approved. I signed yesterday 130 applications that are approved from a provincial perspective. They have now been sent to the federal minister, Miss MacDonald, who will sign them. We sent them up yesterday by courier, so hopefully she will sign them today or tomorrow. MR. CALLAN: Same day, some day or Sunday? MR. POWER: I am not sure whether it is same day, some day or Sunday. All I know is that we sent them up in the most expeditious fashion that we could.

We realize the urgency in many communities in Newfoundland. A $9.5 million programme was put together by a federal and a provincial No. 63 R3387

government who have great concern about the plight of fishermen because of a failed fishery. We want those projects to begin as soon as possible. Of the 130 applications that we approved so far, some are in the Fisheries Response, some are in the Job Creation section. I would think that by Monday or Tuesday, and possibly even as early as tomorrow, Miss MacDonald and I will be able to make some announcement about the actual projects. The second half of the question was why have there been delays. I guess the main reason there have been delays is because this is a new programme.

Obviously, it put some extra burden on the staff that we have. We had to bring a piece of legislation to the House in order to have, I guess, fiscal responsibility in order to be able to approve the project itself. So, bringing the bill to the House here in Supplementary Supply and getting the $9.5 million approved took some time. Our staff have been burdened with doing a new programme which has never been in place before. The government is willing to suffer those minor delays in order to respond to the major problem which is the plight of fishermen.

The first spending of the $9.5 million should be announced very early next week. MR. W. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: I am referring, Mr. Speaker, to a programme which I think is known as the Emergency Programme, the one for fishermen. The minister's explanation as to why it has been delayed does not jibe with the explanation being given by top level bureaucrats to the effect that the agreements were sitting on the minister's desk until this past Friday and they were not being signed. Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary to the minister is that since $9.5 million had been allocated to this programme and $18 million dollars worth of projects have been submitted to the department, that means unless there is a further allocation probably half of the programmes applied for will not be approved. We must take from that, Mr. Speaker, that a large number of fishermen will not be covered by that programme.

Can the minister tell the House if there is a contingency plan in effect or about to be put in effect to cover fishermen who still will not qualify for unemployment insurance benefits, who by virtue of the demand on that programme will not be covered by the projects that will be announced? MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, just to clarify the member's opening comments before he asked his question, the applications came to my desk yesterday morning at about eleven o'clock, were all signed by twelve o'clock, and were off by courier by two or three o'clock in the afternoon. They have not been sitting on my desk for two or three weeks. There have been problems, as I say, with The Financial Administration Act to I L3388 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3388

make sure we did things properly, that we did things according to the system in place, which meant that we had to bring legislation to the House. We had problems with staffing, with getting applications in, with putting together a committee of officials from the Department of Career Development here, the Department of Employment and Immigration for Canada, and the Fishermen's Union all of which took some time. There was a great influx of applications and it took a fair amount of time to pick the best ones.

As I say, those are the reasons for the delay, which we understand put some pressure on some of the fishing communities and the people who do not have their UIC requirements satisfied. We have done it as expeditiously and as carefully as possible, making sure that the Emergency Programme money is not wasted on projects which do not satisfy the needs of fishermen. So we have done all that. As to the fact that we have $18 million worth of applications for a $9.5 million programme, what we intend to do, Mr.

Speaker, is to try and accommodate as much of those $18 million in applications in the much larger Canadian Job Strategy programme which has $22 million of so for job creation. So hopefully a fisherman who cannot get a project approved under the Special Response Programme could easily have it approved under the Canadian Job Strategy programme. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Career Development (Mr. Power) as well. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the despicably outrageous and disgracefully high levels of unemployment in this Province among the general population, the young and the old, the able and the disabled, the trained and the untrained, the skilled and the unskilled, in view of this human calamity, I wonder if the minister can indicate to the House why there appears to be an undue delay with respect to approval of proposals made under the Canada Job Strategy Development Programme? MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, first of all it depends on how you define undue delay. We have in this Province a very high unemployment rate. I announced a few moments ago that we have more people working this month than last month and got a very negative reaction from the Opposition. But there are 5000 more people working this October than there were working in October of 1984. That is a substantial improvement. One of the reasons that that improvement is there is because in the fishery we have sound management.

Albeit the FPI package may not be perfect and some of us may have some concerns about that, but we do have in the fishing industry a sound, logical plan for the future. In forest management we have sound, logical plans, good silvaculture programs, and an established Kruger Mill in Corner Brook which is employing L3389 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3389

more people and more loggers in the Province. The question is about unemployment and employment. MR. GILBERT: Answer the question. MR. POWER: I will answer the question. MR. GILBERT: Why the delay? MR. POWER: There has not been an undue delay, Mr. Speaker. When we talk about improving employment in this Province, one of the ways we are doing it is by sound management practices, whether it is offshore, forestry, fishery or anything else. When it comes to a delay in the programs that are there to respond to those persons who have not been fortunate enough to get work in the short term, obviously these are new programs, it is the first time that this Provincial government has ever taken

part in a job creation program, and we put $2 million into a student program this summer, combined with $5 million of federal Government money. MR. LUSH: Why the delay? MR. POWER: Because it is a new program, it is something we have never done before. We put $3.5 million into the Canadian Job Strategy Program and we put $2 million into the Fishery Response Programme. We have not hired any substantial amount of staff in our department to do that because we want the money to go the people who have the most need, so we are not wasting money on administration.

I agreed there have been some delay, the system is not perfect, but this government has done everything possible in its power to do in the last six or seven months to alleviate the unemployment needs of many persons in many parts of Newfoundland. The delays, Mr. Speaker, are just about overcome. The first applications that I signed yesterday will be signed by Miss MacDonald and, I guess early next week, we will be signing up another batch for Miss MacDonald's signature. The delays have pretty well been overcome.

Albeit there have been some minor delays, what should be realized by all hon. members is the value of the $35 million programme. The $9 million for the Fisheries Response Programme is a substantial amount of money to put into job creation in this Province, and if that means there is going to be a few weeks delay, then we will take the delay. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: It appears, Mr.

Speaker, that the hon. minister was so delighted over the two per cent improvement in the rate of unemployment in this Province that he thought he could sit back on his haunches and not sign these agreements with the federal government. Now, Mr. Speaker, if the minister is not going to tell us why there was a delay, I wonder if he can tell the unemployment people out there, the people trying to put bread and butter on the table, trying to cloth their children, to pay their electric bills, if the minister is not going to tell us why the delay can he give us a schedule?

Can he tell the people what the time frame will be in which they can expect these approvals, whether L3390 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3390

everybody will be notified by November 25, by the end of November? When will the people out there know that their proposals have been approved? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I was delighted to be able to announce that there are 5,000 more people working in this Province this month than there were twelve months ago. I am delighted to be able to say there has been a 2 per cent drop in the unemployment rate in this Province. I think they are significant figures.

That does not mean that I sat back on my haunches and did not sign applications that sat on my desk for, as the other member mentioned, two weeks. The applications were not in my office for sixty minutes. They came in at eleven o'clock and they were all signed and out by twelve o'clock, because that is the kind of expeditious fashion in which we wish to create these jobs. There has not been an undue delay. The applications had been received and we tried to priorize the applications.

If you get applications for more than the amount of money you have, you have to pick the best applications from them to make sure they satisfy the needs of the community as well as the employment needs of the persons involved. We have done that. We have a Committee in place. The federal government has a very large staff which looks at the applications, as do our own staff, and, in the Fisheries Response programme we had the Fishermen's Union involved as well. We have picked the best applications as quickly as possible.

We will accommodate as many persons to get them employed as is huirtanly possible in the short term. The fact is that we have two sections, and the Canadian Job Strategy one had an October deadline because we wanted to get early applications approved as quickly as possible. The $44 million that we have to spend in job creation will be spent before the end of March. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: I want to clarify, Mr.

Speaker, that I am talking about the general Canadian Job Strategy Programme for the general population as opposed to the one that my hon. colleague mentioned earlier, the one designed for fishermen and fish plant workers. So I am referring to the Canadian Job Strategy Programme, which is the one for the general population. I wonder has the minister has made any representation, whether he has taken any steps with his federal counterparts to ensure the removal of the unjust and unfair requirements of that programme that are so discriminatory towards the workers of this Province?

I refer to the training component and to the entry requirements. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe that a former educator in this Province would talk about those training L3391 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3391

components as being unjust and unfair to the workers of this Province. Where has your training gone, the training that shows you the value of education in this Province? The fact is that I have heard members opposite say that we would not get applications, we could not get rural cornnrnnities to apply for the SEED Programme this Sunnier, but last week I brought in some information that said we have 420 cOmmunities in Newfoundland apply for the Summer progammes.Now these are not 420 urban communities, I do not think. They are small rural communities.

I heard members say last Fall and early in Spring that you could not get someone to run in municipal elections because of our Municipal Act. Did we have people run in municipal elections? MR. GILBERT: Answer the question, boy. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, an answer to the question should bear some relation to the question. The minister has gone on and on about a number of things.

He has talked about the unemployment rate, when actually the unemployment rate has gone up almost one per cent since last month, and there are 8,000 fewer jobs now in the Province than there were one month ago in the Province. He is making all kinds of statements like this and not answering the question, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The speaker is obviously answering the question which he has been given.

Now the new Opposition House Leader, in getting up on that point of order, is just merely injecting himself into the debate and he himself really is out of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. I think the hon. minister should try to confine his answers strictly to the supplementary. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to answer the question as asked.

I was using a couple of comparisons to show exactly how far of f base the Liberal Opposition in this Province can be, whether it is about Summer programmes, Municipal Affairs, and now about this programme when they say that training component should be removed. They were here a month ago saying we would not get applications, nobody would apply, that it was unfair to rural Newfoundland. We had over 700 applications in last week and more applications coming in every day for the first series of the programmes. The training programme has been accommodated in almost all of the applications.

In rural Newfoundland, they have accommodated the training part of it. The facts are simple: you think the people in rural S L3392 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3392

S Newfoundland are too stupid, too stunned to be able to accommodate a small training component in the programme we have, which is a better programme than the old Liberal Canada Works programme, but nobody over there wants to acknowledge the fact that our programme is better, that there is a training component there which is designed to help people get some long-term benefits from these short-term job creation programmes to make those persons more employable because they have learned something while on the job. The applications are in.

Rural Newfoundland will have people better trained, and the applications will be approved. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I want to welcome my good friend, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), back to the House because I have a question for him. I wonder if he would indicate to the House what activity is ongoing now to secure a new Secondary Roads Funding Agreement with the federal government? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, since we put forward a secondary roads proposal, I guess almost three years ago, every opportunity I have, which I guess would amount on an average to perhaps once every month and a half or two months. I am in personal contact with the Minister of Transport (Mr. Mazankowski) as it relates to a committee, established a number of years ago under a memorandum of understanding, from the bureaucracy of the federal Department of Transport and the provincial Department of Transportation, which deals on an ongoing basis with a number of transportation issues.

Every other opportunity that I have had, and I know other members on this side have done the same thing, to discuss this with our federal counterparts and other people in the federal administration, we have continuously been pushing for the third part, if you will, of our original roads proposal. One part dealt with the Trans-Canada Highway, another dealt with the Trans-Labrador Highway, and a third component, by far the largest dealt with the secondary roads programme.

Two of those components have been addressed and part of the third one, but certainly on the larger part of it we are continuing to have discussions and dialogue. I hope, Mr. Speaker, in the not too distant future we will be in a position to announce an ongoing secondary roads programme. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, three roads in particular come to mind insofar as I am concerned, Pools Cove, Seal Cove and Harbour Mille.

I wonder if the minister would indicate whether he has given priority to these particular roads in a forthcoming secondary roads agreement? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of L3393 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3393

Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, there are a great number of priorities in this Province relative to roads. I guess a large portion of the secondary roads components deals with unpaved portions of roads in the Province and also, Mr. Speaker, with the building of roads which are not presently in existence, and a lot depends on the effort that is put into a particular project. I would just like to point out that roads are not specifically listed, if you will, in a secondary roads agreement, and this has been an ongoing practice for a great number of years.

When the Province goes forward with a roads package to the federal government, the monies we are able to cost share in particular road developments around the Province allows the Province to better utilize its limited resources identified for road construction on some of the other roads not specifically listed in cost shared agreements.

So whether the road is listed there is a definite advantage when we are able to access funding for a Secondary Roads programme because money that would normally come out of the provincial coffers only now will come out of a cost-shared programme and allow us to free up some provincial money for use in other areas. So, whether the road is specifically listed, there is an advantage to all roads and transportation systems in the Province when we are able to sign cost-shared agreements. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR.

SIMMONS: The minister will probably be aware that a spokesman for the federal government some months ago indicated that an amount of $7 million in federal funding was set aside for the Pool's Cove Road, and that the only impediment was the need to reclassify the road. Would the minister indicate whether he is aware of that $7 million? And is he prepared to take the necessary steps to reclassify the road to make it eligible for the funding that has been indentified by the federal government' s spokesman? MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot really address myself to what the hon. gentleman refers to as spokesman for the federal government and so on. I have no idea who that is or whether in fact a statement along those lines was made, but I am unware of a specific allocation of $7 million or any other amount. I would just like to point out, perhaps it is worth mentioning because the member opposite has from time to time used this in the past and it is not really a true statement, about the definition of a secondary road. Essentially in the Province we have been dealing with the Federal Transport Department.

The classification of roads, I guess, have cropped up in dealing initially with the Department of Transport as it relates to the primary highroad system and to the DRIE mechanism 4 4 L3394 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3394

in the past for a secondary roads programme. In essence, Mr. Speaker, the fact is that there is a primary highroads system, which is the Trans-Canada Highway, and anything else, I suppose even the Trans-Labrador Highway, could be in the secondary roads classification. But anything outside the Trans-Canada Highway is classified, at least as far as the Province is concerned, and certainly from discussions that I have had with the federal government, as a secondary road.

That is the road system for the Department of Transportation - I am not talking about forestry access roads or farm access roads or fishery access roads - certainly the main transportation links. There are two classifications, essentially, if we eliminate the Trans-Labrador Highway; they are the Trans-Canada Highway itself, and all other roads are secondary roads. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, the first part of my question is to the Minister of Consumer Affairs (Mr. Russell).

Just recently I asked a question about the increase in fuel adjustment rates. In September we had Mr. Wells appointed to the Public Utilities Board. Due to the fact that this gentleman is on the Council in St. John's, on the Commission on Employment and Unemployment, and is a private businessman, does the Minister of Consumer Affairs agree with the fact that possibly this man cannot do justice to consumers with so many other interests? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, obviously the member for Port de Grave (Mr.

Efford) is not aware of the capabilities of Mr. Wells. I am very pleased with the appointment of Mr. Wells to the Public Utilities Board to represent the consumers of this Province, and I have every faith that he will do a yeoman job. MR. EFFORD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: I am not aware of his capabilities but I am certainly aware of the salary he is taking in, $500 a day on the Commission on Employment and Unemployment, plus expenses, and a minimum of $25,000 a year on the Public Utilities Board plus expenses.

I would like to ask a supplementary to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). Can Mr. Wells simultaneously collect from the Commission on Employment and Unemployment and the Public Utilities Board? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the hon. member means 'may' he do it? 'Can' is a physical thing. I suppose you can do almost anything. But may he collect? I think I would have to look into it. I believe L3395 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3395

there is not much doubt that he may do so. The hon. the President of the Council. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: It seems like nobody can answer a question. They sit over there in the House and they criticize because we do not ask questions, but when we ask questions they cannot answer them. You know, somebody has got to be able to answer a very simple question when it is asked. Twenty-five thousand dollars a year is the minimum salary according to the Minister of Energy. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Would the hon. the member please ask his supplementary?

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have sat here in this House all afternoon and I have listened to people get up and ramble on. I am presenting a question. MR. SPEAKER: Would the hon. the member please ask his question? MR. EFFORD: I have a new question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall). It was pointed out that he has a minimum salary of $25,000. I would like to ask the minister how many meetings would that have to entail in order for him to collect the $25,000? Also, is it $25,000 plus expenses? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the structure of Mr. Wells' remuneration - MR. CALLAN: Table it.

MR. MARSHALL: Exactly. Thank you very much. M 1TTC'flC'V. L1.L. • MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: My question is to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe). Seeing that the Chairman of C.N. Marine, Mr. Tingley, and the Board of Directors are meeting in St. John's, and with regard to service in Southern Labrador in particular, supplies are in short demand, worse than they would be normally in the Spring after the long freeze-up, and business people are finding that they cannot get supplies, all as a result, of course, of the federal cutback in last Spring's budget.

We are finding that the result of taking off an extra boat is now catching up with C.N. Marine and the people who have to pay for this cutback are the people in Southern Labrador. As soon as supplies are taken out of the shed in St. Anthony shed and Lewisporte, businessmen have to hold back freight- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Would the hon. member please ask his question? I L3396 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3396

MR. HISCOCK: My question is to the Minister of Transportation. Seeing that as soon as supplies are shipped out other supplies are more coming in, the boats have to go up North, then drop off supplies coming down. Will the Minister of Transportation make representation to the Chairman of C.N. Marine tonight to have an inquiry into C.N. Marine service in Southern Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: The situation in Southern Labrador, as the hon. gentleman is aware, is not all that different, in fact, I do not know if it is any different than it has been in the past.

The structure has been that the people are used to bringing in goods and so on in preparation for a very long winter with a lack of water transportation, and have been gearing themselves up for that kind of an eventuality each year on an ongoing basis. I will certainly check into the situation. The member opposite referred to a number of things which I suppose I am supposed to take for granted as it relates to whether there is a lack of particular goods and, if there is a shortage of supply, whether in fact that shortage is because of any inadequacies in the C.N. Marine activities on Coastal Labrador.

With those two suppositions, I suppose I will check into it. If in fact there is any substance or any reason to believe what the hon. member is saying is accurate, then I will certainly pursue it and do whatever we can, as we have in the past, Mr. Speaker, to make sure that emergency situations and situations that you cannot foresee are addressed, whether it be in the provision of services through C.N. Marine in the supply of goods or whether it be through our ongoing air subsidy program for the supply of food in particular into Labrador. MR. HISCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: I have a supplementary to the minister. It is quite true that it is becoming late in the fall and more supplies are going in and putting pressure on, as always. But what has happened this year is C.N. Marine has taken out a boat, so we have one less boat this year. Also they have some problems with a few of the other boats. I am going to be presenting a letter to the Chairman of C.N. Marine personally asking that he contact the business people along the Labrador coast and that an inquiry be done into the- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Would the hon. member please pose his question? MR. HISCC)CT<! To the Minister of Transportation. Will he be supporting me in asking the Chairman of C.N. Marine to have an inquiry into the effects of taking off a boat in Southern Labrador to make sure that these problems will be rectified? MR. SPEAKER: S L3397 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3397

The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, without access to the information, I certainly will not be giving a blanket approval to supporting the hon. member opposite. But certainly if the facts that he brought forward indicate the necessity to do something along those lines, I will judge that at a time, Mr. Speaker, when I have had an opportunity to look into the facts. MR. HISCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MV Cfltr'r, On a supplementary, the hon. the member for Eagle River. There is just time for a very short question and answer. MR.

HISCOCK: We have seen the downgrading of the railway by C.N. until finally the passenger train was gone. If the Minister of Transportation does not make the views of this government known to the federal government, then we are going to see a continuation of downgrading of CN Marine. The minister should be aware of these problems, and if he is not, he should be made aware of them by the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren). Will the Minister of Transportation support the idea of having an enquiry into CN Marine's service in Southern and Northern Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation.

MR. DAWE: I would just like to very quickly point out, Mr. Speaker, that the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) has a very short memory, because he was the member who initially supported the removal of coastal boat service in Labrador with the substitution of aircraft, and it was my department and this administration that brought forward the point that you needed both services in Coastal Labrador. MR. HISCOCK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Eagle River. MR.

HISCOCK: The Minister of Transportation is quite aware that there is only a few minutes in Question Period and is trying to leave the impression that I supported the idea of the abandonment of CN and supported air services. If we can have the Trans-Canada here and airports and other facilities and modes of transportation, we can have two or three modes of transportation in Labrador too, Mr. Speaker, MR. DAWE: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR.

DAWE: I welcome the support of the member opposite and I am glad that we on this side were able to change his mind from his original stand. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, there is no point of order. There is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has now elapsed. L3398 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3398

I Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. MR. WINDOR Mr. Speaker, I am presenting the Annual Report of Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to give the answer the hon. Leader of the Opposition sought in his response to Ministerial Statements today.

I notice he did not follow up in an exchange in questions, but he was interested in the choke. There were two tests. Test number one, the choke was 19.05 milimeters, forty-eight sixty-fourths of an inch, and I am glad it was not forty-nine sixty-fourths of an inch because it translates then into three-quarters of an inch. Test number two, the choke again 19.05 mm, forty-eight sixty-fourths of an inch. Test number one, Mr. Speaker, between 3344.3 and 3366.3 meters, 20 meters; test number two between 3228.5 and 3337 meters. The oil on test number one, as I say, flowed 4,125 barrels per day, and that translates, Mr.

Speaker, into 659 millions of cubic feet per day. The oil on the second one, 3,930 barrels per day, which translates into 628 millions of cubic feet per day. The gas, Mr. Speaker - the hon. gentlemen there opposite would be interested in gas - was 91,200 cubic meters per day, which translates into 3.2 millions of cubic feet per day. The gas in the other one, 91,400 cubic meters per day, which translates into 3.5 millions of cubic meters per day. Mr. Speaker, the gravity on test number one, 34 degrees and on test number two, 34. Mr. Speaker, how is that for homework? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, I am glad to be able to do it. I want to note again the hon. gentleman refuses to engage me in questions during Question Period about matters with respect to the offshore, but I continue to invite him to do so. MR. BARRY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): On a point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I wonder if the minister would repeat something. I did not catch his figures. MR. TOBIN: That is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: The minister can answer or not.

I wonder if the minister would indicate the number of meters on L3399 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3399

the second test? I wonder if the minister would also indicate why it is that this type of information, which has regularly been given whenever there were announcements previously, up until the Ben Nevis announcement last week, has not been given as a matter of course. Why is some special step needed in order to get that information from the minister now? MR. MARSHALL: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, to the first question, it is 9.5 meters, and to the second question, I try not to be a slave to follow precedents, particularly the precedents practiced by my predecessor. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please.! I think that point of order is fairly well taken. I think that should really have been in Statements by Ministers, but I know that it cropped up during the statement and the reply by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I apologize to Your Honour, but I just hope particularly the Opposition is duly edified by the answers. MR.

SPEAKER: This being Private Members' Day, there is a motion in the name of the hon. the member for Gander (Mr. Baker). The debate was adjourned by the hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Gilbert), who has sixteen minutes left. The hen, the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My colleague, the hon. the member for Gander, submitted this motion.

It says: "WHEREAS the municipalities of this Province are now being forced in a dictatorial manner to pay the total property assessment costs for the Province." At the time this motion was submitted, this was the recommendation that was made to the municipalities, and I know, because at that time I was a member of a town council. It came in for much discussion at the time. After two interventions on behalf of the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities and the individual town councils themselves this was changed.

As the members opposite got up to debate this motion, refute it and criticize it, we have heard theni say that actually none of this happened, it is a figment of our imagination and the motion is really not in order. Now, I support the motion and, as I said, I do it with some degree of understanding of the motion in view of the fact that I was a town councillor until this last election. I was on the town council in Grand Falls. So I am I L3400 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3400

I going to quote some figures on what happened in Grand Falls and what this assessment that has been put on the taxpayers of Grand Falls is going to cost them over the period of the next five years. I have the figures, which I can table. It was a record presented to me as a councillor in Grand Falls. It is public information, so I am prepared to table the figures I am talking about. The cost of the last assessment for the town of Grand Falls was $33,396. Until the change was made last year, this would have been the total cost that the town would have had for a five-year period.

Now they have changed the assessment roll and how it is done, and they charge an annual fee, which, in the case of Grand Falls in 1985, is going to be $28,000. In 1986 it is going to be $42,000, in 1987 it is going to be $56,000. MR. DOYLE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: I have to rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker, because the hon. member is not informed as to what has been happening over the last couple of months. I indicated to him just last week when I took

part in this debate that no longer are we going from .0002 up to .0003 and on to .0004 which would represent 100 per cent cost recovery. That has been frozen a .0002. So it does not go from .0002 to .0003 to .0004. I have to make that correction. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, I do not think that is a point of order. I will accept what the minister says but I will still use the increase that is there. Maybe it is not as much as was recommended in November, but in this particular case it would have been $238,000. So now maybe the minister would be able to tell me that it would be $200,000.

I think there was something like that over the same period. Despite what members opposite have said, the assessment has been changed and increased and this is something that has to be passed on to the taxpayers of municipalities in which they live. There is no other way that they can get this money. This provincial government is doing basically the same thing to the municipalities in Newfoundland as what the federal government is doing to the provincial government. They are cutting out the incentive grants which means that they have to raise their money somehow.

So, of course, they are passing it on and putting it out to the municipal councillors to raise this money. I will mention another part of the loss of revenue to municipalities. In my colleague's motion, it says, "AND

WHEREAS some grants to municipalities have been drastically cut during the past three years." They were, incentive grants were cut. Again I quote Grand Falls because I know, I was there. I have it here. The incentive grant in 1983 was cut by $90,000 for the town of Grand Falls. In 1984 it was $95,000. In 1985 it was $99,000. The total incentive grants were cut by $284,000 for the town of Grand Falls. The population L3401 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3401

component was cut by $14,000. So, $298,532 was the total amount that the incentive grant was cut for the town of Grand Falls. If that was cut for that town, I assure you that the other towns around the Province, that are not as well managed or do not have the tax base that the town of Grand Falls has, are in drastic trouble.

The only reason that the town of Grand Falls did not have to increase its municipal taxes over the past four years was that the previous council was able to negotiate a grant in lieu of taxes with Abitibi-Price that had been frozen at $125,000 per year up to the present grant of $478,000 per year. Now that is the only reason, that coupled with the fact that the town council of Grand Falls was well managed by the town council and the officers that are there. That is the reason that there was not a massive increase in taxes put in force.

I am sure that those councillors that were elected in last week's election are now sitting down and realizing that they have a serious problem that was imposed upon them by members opposite and their government. I would be willing to venture to say that you will see municipal taxes increase in pretty near every municipality in Newfoundland over the next year if they want to come in with a balanced budget. Of course, the minister knows they must come in with a balanced budget. This is one of the things, under The Municipalities Act, which the towns must do.

So if those taxes have got to be put on the backs of the people, we are going to find that this motion has validity and it is something that we should seriously consider. Now, as to the number of people running, we are glad to see that they did run. We are glad to see that 1,600 did run in this election. No doubt it was brought about by the fact that there was a massive advertising campaign and for that, I think the minister should be thanked.

Otherwise, he would have a terrible problem right now because only for these ads half the municipalities in Newfoundland would not have had town councils and would have to be run by appointed committees. I think that it was good that there was an advertising campaign undertaken and that 1,600 people did run and in most of the communities there were elections. But even with all that, I think, there were seven or eight that did not have elections and could not get enough people to run.

The other thing I would like to touch on while I am talking about this resolution are the water supplies provided to municipalities. In some towns, like Gander and Grand Falls, they were fortunate in that water supply systems were put in. The City of St. John's even, their water supply was installed, their purification and treatment plant was supplied by the Province, instead of by the taxpayers of St. John' s. In most municipalities, the installation and maintainence of water and sewer systems are the things that use all the revenue.

Most revenue generated by small towns around the province is tied up paying for a water and sewer system and I feel that this is a little unfair. Take the town of a L3402 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3402

Burgeo, for instance, I know the Resource Policy Committee of Cabinet had a meeting in Burgeo some time last Fall, I think it was November or December, at which time the plight of the town of Burgeo was made known to the Resource Committee. They were told the seriousness of every bit of revenue that was going into the town of Burgeo being used to maintain the system. There was a serious problem with the water, the PH factor was rusting out the pipes, so every cent they got had to go into correcting this problem.

At the time, the town council of Burgeo asked, and were promised, that they were going to get $100,000 grant/guaranteed loan to bring this water system up to date and correct the problem. They would then have a situation where they would be able to get on and provide some other services with their revenue. That was in November of last year. Then I found this Summer that the ex-mayor of Burgeo spent half the Summer here on the eight floor trying to get in to see the Premier because he was a good friend of the Premier.

I think, after waiting two weeks, ten days or something, he did get to see his secretary one day and he was told, 'well, it is there and that is it. We are going to renege on it, there is no money for it.' There are a lot more promises than grants. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. GILBERT: Well, I can assure you they did not keep it in Burgeo. You can ask them down there now. They do not but I hope they will. What I am saying is this is a situation that evolved in Burgeo and I would say it is not unique to Burgeo. The problem is there.

They just do not have the money to operate the town in view of the fact that they have to spend their money in maintaining a water and sewer system. I think even the hon. member for St. Johns North (Mr. J. Carter) would admit that everybody should be entitled to have a water system in their town. MR. J. CARTER: (Inaudible). MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, I can assure that my colleague did not lie and he is able to justify that. The points that I have been making here today are in support of this. They are not lies. It is there and it is factual.

The incentive grants were decreased by this government and the assessments were increased. The only thing that I am saying is the grants were decreased, as the hon. member knows and he can say what he likes. The big lie theory can come in again, if you tell it long enough and often enough, you think the people would believe you, but when you see it on paper, it is awfully hard, Mr. Speaker, to be able to say that this is lies. When you see it right there on paper - the grants were decreased - how can the hon. member opposite sit there and say that he increased it. You go out and ask any of the - MR.

SPEAKER (Greening): Order, please! The hon. member's time is up. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. L3403 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3403

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: I am not going to get into an argument of numbers with the hon. gentleman opposite. However, I understand that the minister has already spoken in this debate but I will gladly give away for a moment if he wishes to point out the gross inaccuracies in what the member who just took his seat has already said. I think this whole matter, perhaps, might have been solved some years ago if regional government had been introduced.

The concept of regional government is a good one and it would have been introduced and the programme would not have been defeated except for some chicanery engaged in by the other side. For hon. members who were not here in the House then, it might be interesting to recall the details and the righteous member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Decker) might be more than interested to learn what chicanery his predecessors got involved in. I am not sure whether he is one of the members who, one of the two potential defectors that we have who wish to come across to this side. - MR. CALLAN: On a point of order, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: I want a quorum call, Mr. Speaker. Quorum Call MR. J. CARTER: As I was saying, Mr. Speaker, the righteous member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Decker) should acquaint himself with the chicanery that went on before he became a member and probably it is still going on. As I was saying, I wonder if he is not one of the two potential defectors that are coming over to oui side. I cannot really say to much at this point because I understand that negotiations are at a very sensitive stage. AN HON MEMBER: Very delicate. MR. J.

CARTER: Right, very delicate stage. However, we did have to push one of the members out of the elevator this morning. A bunch of us were going up to caucus and one fellow came into the elevator, one of the members who is sitting in this House right now got into the elevator and had to be pushed out physically. This is an actual fact and I witnessed it. So I do not know whether he was coming to caucus to continue to the negotiations or whether he felt more attracted to this side than his colleagues. In fact, his colleagues had to physically remove him.

However, for the benefit of the members opposite I will briefly describe what went on. There was an evening sitting of this House and regional government was being discussed. In fact, a great many members had gotten up and spoken on it and it was getting near to a vote. When you call a meeting of L3404 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3404

ri a this House for 8:00 o'clock at night, you know, it is true we get off at 6:00 o'clock but by the time members get home and get their supper and listen to the news, you lose time. I suppose all members watch the news. It is not for what they hear, it is not for what the news contains, but for what it leaves out, so most members do listen to the news for that purpose. MR. OTTENHEIMER: So they can hear what is left out. MR. J. CARTER: By the time they had made sure that there was nothing of any importance in the news, it was almost eight o'clock and they were a bit late coming back.

The hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons), the hon. ten-day member, stationed himself by the elevator and kept his hand on the button so that the elevator could neither go up nor down and the doors could not close. I think at least one elevator was fooled up. I happened to meet one of the ministers coming into the House and I got up in the other elevator, which is notoriously slow.

We were a few minutes late and the vote had already taken place and regional government was defeated but it was defeated by chakanery, by obstructionist tactics by the other side and if ever there was grounds for a genuine point of privilege, I think that was the time. However, we retired in confusion, I have to say we were nonpiussed and absolutely surprised that such a good proposal should have been defeated and it was not ever brought up again. It is •too bad, because I think that would have been the answer. I remember on one ocassion during the by-election when Mr.

Stanfield came down to the Bonavista - Twillingate by-election. We were driving out around various communities there and I asked him point blank, "Mr. Stanfield, is there any area in Nova Scotia that is sort of no man's land or is it all looked after by municipalities?" He said, "No, every part of Nova Scotia is included in some municipality or other," that is to say there is no no man's land in Nova Scotia. It is a county system and it is a system worth looking at. Of course, their history is different from ours but it is perhaps a system well worth emulating. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr.

Doyle) can deal with what I will charitably call the inaccuracies, I really should call them lies and distortions, both in the resolution and in the debate from the other side that follows it. I am told by the minister that the increase in what municipalities have to pay towards the retirement of their debt has been risen from fifteen per cent of their collected revenue to twenty per cent of their collected revenue. That is one provision and there has been a slight decrease in the amount of matched money.

That is to say for every dollar that municipalities used to collect in taxes, it used to be matched by fifty cents, it is now only matched by forty-five cents. But those are the only two substantial changes and, yet, there have been other peripherial grants that the minister can talk about that have been increased substantially. It is wrong and in my opinion actually evil to suggest that municipalities are worse off. L3405 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3405

I realize and I think the people of Newfoundland should realize that if the Liberal Party ever becomes government in this Province it would be a government by chakanery, by lies and by corruption and dirt and filth and I hope it never comes to pass. So with those few points, I will take my seat. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman who just took his seat is heard to mumble often when somebody is speaking from this side, 'rubbish.' He says it in his sleep sometimes, he tells me, he is so use to saying it.

Perhaps the reason he deals in words like that is because he is so familiar with it. He just spoke for five or ten minutes and all he said, Mr. Speaker, was rubbish. He talked about the possibility of a couple of people from this side crossing the House. Well I cannot speak for my colleagues, but I can speak for myself. The world will not last long enough and I will not live long enough. - MR. BARRY: They are all going to cross after the next election. MR. CALLAN: That is right. The world will not last long enough and I will not live long enough to cross over to that side. That has always been true, Mr.

Speaker, but it is especially true now that some of the gentlemen who resided on this side of the House crossed over a few months back. Some of them were laughed at, they were scorned and they were ridiculed here by members opposite, but the Premier, in his anxious moments to try and get some more people on his side, would accept anybody, even the people he laughed at on this side, and even the people who, in the Premier's opinion, were at the bottom of the barrel. Mr.

Speaker, I will not be crossing the House I can assure the hon. member that, and no amount of money or no amount of persuasion or anything else will make me cross the House. As the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) just said, and as I told some of the hon. gentlemen yesterday over lunch, we will be crossing the House all right, but it will be after the next election and we will be over there as government. Mr. Speaker, the other point that the member for St. John's North (Mr. J.

Carter) was trying to make was we should not have the sort of municipal governments that we have, we should have regional governments. He talked about how it was defeated one night. Let me ask the hon. member for St. John's North was that any reason why a new bill, another resolution or motion could not be introduced? Let us face it, if the elevators were stuck one night and a motion was lost, it could have been brought up hence. MR. J. CARTER: May I answer that? MR. CALLAN: Sure, I will yield. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): The hon. the member for St. John's L3406 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3406

North. MR. J. CARTER: The member should know that an issue or a bill or a proposal that comes up once in any given session cannot be raised again in that particular session. MR. CALLAN: I know that. MR. J. CARTER: It was shortly after that that the former Premier decided to resign and the issue did get lost in the shuffle. It was felt that perhaps it would not be that attractive. I am sorry it was not brought up again. The same minister, the hon. Mr. Dinn, the member for Pleasantville, I do not think he was any longer Minister of Municipal Affairs.

There was a change of ministers, there was a change of government in that there was a change of Premier, and it did get lost in the shuffle. I regret that. I think it was a good idea at the time, but it was defeated and it was not brought up again. I am sorry it was. MR. CALLAN: I thank the member for that very, very, very feeble, not reason, excuse for supporting this argument in favour of regional government. The Tory Party has been in power in this Province now for - MR. BAIRD: Fifteen more to go. MR.

CALLAN: - some fifteen years and they still point back to the Smaliwood Administration and the pre-Confederation days to talk about all the woe s that we have in this Province, Mr. Speaker. Anybody with any common sense can see through the feeble foolish arguments that are presented, yesterday by the President of Treasury Board (Mr. Windsor) when he got up on a point of order, and of course by the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) just now. Mr. Speaker, let me address the resolution by the member for Gander.

"WHEREAS municipalities of this Province are now being forced in a dictatorial manner, to pay the total property assessment cost for the Province," that is a fact. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) cannot deny that. "AND

WHEREAS some grants to municipalities have been drastically cut during the past three years," some grants, that is a fact. He cannot deny that. And here is the one that the minister last week hinged a lot of his arguments on, "AND

WHEREAS this unfair shifting of the tax burden from the Province to the municipalities will force the municipalities to reduce services, increase taxes," that is true. Now here is one that the minister hung a lot of his arguments on and tried to play down how wrong the Liberal Opposition can be. They were wrong about this and they were wrong about that and they were wrong about getting an offshore agreement and all of this nonsense. "AND

WHEREAS this may cause problems in the November municipal elections." We have gone through them. I will not go around the Province. I could do it. As a matter of fact, I just came out of the common room where I saw a paper somebody was holding, The Evening Telegram, in which there was an item about an election in Badger sometime in December. But I will not go around the Province. L3407 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3407

Let me ask the minister if there is anything he can disagree with in what I have to say about the district of Bellevue. There are thirty-five communities in the district of Bellevue, Mr. Speaker, and only seven of them have councils. There were only seven communities in which elections were held or were supposed to be held. Now, I will take these communities as you travel west on the TCH, and the minister can respond when I am finished. Whitbourne: What happened in Whitbourne? MR. DOYLE: You should be ashamed of yourself after what we put into Whitbourne. MR.

CALLAN: Now, the minister just interjected, even though, Mr. Speaker, I told him that he would have ample opportunity to respond when I am finished. I did not intend saying this until the minister interjected, but let me tell him what really happened in Whitbourne. Number one, Mr. Speaker, what happened in Whitbourne on nomination day and on election day in Whitbourne? Nothing! Not one person turned out to be nominated for the town council of Whitbourne, not one person was elected. Of course, we have an election coming up sometime in December, if we can get somebody to run.

Now, then, last week, as well, the minister talked about the fact that four years ago there were 1,100 people running for municipal councils in the Province, and this time there were 1,600, and increase of 500. MR. DOYLE: 1,662. MR. CALLAN: Whatever. Like the commercial, I stand corrected, there were 1,662 flamingos with bills. What happened in Whitbourne, Mr. Speaker? What happened is this: The town council in Whitbourne came in in the Spring, I made an appointment with the minister - MR. TOBIN: You are a poor member. MR. CALLAN: I want to be heard in silence, Mr. Speaker.

The member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) is not even in his own seat. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): Order, please! We will have silence on both sides of the House while the hon. member is speaking. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I set up a meeting with the minister in the Spring, the town council came in and we sat down in the minister's office and told the minister their problems. In response the minister said, 'Well, I live in Avondale, which is not that far from Whitbourne. Arrange a meeting some night' - they were having water and sewer problems.

They have been having them since 1972, ever since this government took over. The whole Province has been having problems, but especially Whitbourne, the birthplace of the Premier - 'and I will drop over to the town hall in Whitbourne and we will discuss it with your council, and bring in your - MR. POWER: Campaign workers. a L3408 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3408

It MR. CALLAN: No, we are not talking about elections, you see. Members opposite cannot get away from thinking about elections long enough to be sensible. Now, Mr. Speaker, that was last Spring and the minister has not turned up to a meeting in Whitbourne since then. That is why - MR. DOYLE: Why go to Whitbourne? I met with them down in my office. What do you want? MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I just said that the minister offered to go out and the Mayor, Dick Johnson and the others who were there can swear on just as many stacks of bibles as the Premier talked about the other day, that the minister said, "I will come to a meeting in Whitbourne." It was never done. That, Mr. Speaker, is why - of course - they did not get any help for their problems at Whitbourne. I remember a letter that I got from the Mayor of Whitbourne addressed to the Minister of Transportation talking about the deplorable condition of their roads. Of course the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr.

Doyle) knows about the deplorable condition that their water and sewer system is in. We saw it on television, on Here And Now, on that programme where the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) says people watch it so they can find out what is not on the news. We saw a lady there with a beauty salon trying to carry out her business and a little dribble of water coming out of the tap. We saw another lady there with two sinks full of dirty dishes because there was not a dribble of water coming out of the tap. That is Whitbourne, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: How many do you have to go through? MR.

CALLAN: There are seven. I am sure if my time runs out I will be granted leave to go through them. As I travel West on the TCH, the next one is Chapel Arm. What happened in Chapel Arm? I will tell you what happened, Mr. Speaker. Seven people turned out. There was no election. Seven people turned out. Now then, the minister and others opposite may say, 'Well, sure, that is great.' But you see, Mr.

Speaker, I was trying to make the point just now, before I was so rudely interrupted by the minister, as I continue to be interrupted by him now, about whether there were 1,100 four years ago and now 1,662 people offered themselves for council, the real crux of the question is how many of them were incumbents.

You would expect four years later to have an additional 500 people running for town councils, especially when they lived in a town and they knew nothing about the increase in taxes, they knew nothing about how this provincial government, and specifically the Department of Municipal Affairs, had been treating them over the past four years. In Chapel Arm, the second municipality, Mr. Speaker, I believe there was one incumbent. The others were all brand new. Most of them were ladies. I know why some of them are there. They did not go there voluntarily. But L3409 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3409

anyway, that is another matter. know why they are there. I sent them a congratulatory letter last week. Even as I was writing it I was thinking I should have been sending them a letter of sympathy. If they do not get anymore from this government, in Chapel Arm on the town council, than the previous council in Chapel Arm got, then it is sympathy that they should get, and not a commendation and congratulations. Seven people turned out, Mr. Speaker, in Chapel Arm. In Norman's Cove, the same thing happened. AN HON. MEMBER: You brainwashed them. MR. CALLAN: I did not brainwash anybody. MR.

REID: We had no trouble down in my district. MR. CALLAN: I am glad that the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Reid) spoke, Mr. Speaker, because it did not cross my mind until this very moment. I would say an additional reason why there was an increase of 500 people was just given by the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde, that in areas where they did run it was because they were brainwashed, brainwashed by the Tory member. You know, run for council if not - MR. J. CARTER: Will the member permit a question? MR. CALLAN: No, I will not. I permitted one question and that is it. That is Norman's Cove, Mr.

Speaker, seven people ran. Again, mostly all new members. Not incumbents who have sat there and saw that nothing was delivered, except what was delivered by the Liberal Government and Ottawa. A beautiful municipal building in Chapel Arm and Norman's Cove, where did it come from? It came from the Liberals in Ottawa under those foolish make-work programmes that the Premier talks about, putting two fences around the same graveyard. That is where they came from. Do they have water and sewer in Norman's Cove, Mr. Speaker, after applying for it for fourteen years?

Of course not, it has gone to the Tory districts and I told a story here before. MR. REID: (Inaudible). MR. CALLAN: Yes, go back to the Joey Smaliwood days. Why not? Why do you not go back to the Commission of Government days? If the members of this House want a speech, Mr. Speaker, I can give it to them. I would like to stick to this topic. The President of Treasury Board (Mr. Windsor) got up yesterday in a confuffle, mainly because he is smarting because he was demoted and he no longer a shining light in the Cabinet. He got up and he talked about asking questions about employment. Mr.

Speaker, the President of the Treasury Board was the Minister of Development for how many years? I do not know. He gave away the taxpayers dollars in this Province, Mr. Speaker, to a group down in the United States to do a study on setting up a aluminum smelter in Labrador. We heard all the talk about the how Lower L3410 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3410

Churchill is going to be developed, creating thousands of jobs, and part of the reason for it would be to erect an aluminum smelter in Labrador which again, would give up jobs. What happened? This government, Mr. Speaker, procrastinated and sit on its hands. The aluminum smelter, that we should have had in this Province, that would have meant jobs and because it chews up a lot of electricity would have meant the development of the Lower Churchill, is now in Quebec and we lost that. Now, that is the kind of development he provided. Mr. Speaker, the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) got up today in a great mood because he had an announcement to make. I mean if I were responding to his ministerial statement about the oil that was discovered offshore, I would have got up and said three words and sat down, perhaps five words, "Thank you God for putting it out there and thank you PIP for it possible for the oil companies to get it out of the ground out there." MR. REID: That is not three words. That is more than three words. MR. CALLAN: How would you know? Somebody must have told you. Mr.

Speaker, in this famous brochure which went around Bellevue district in the last election, I gave answers to the most frequent questions that people were asking. AN HON. MEMBER: Who paid for that? MR. CALLAN: I paid for it. It cost $500 by the way. You will never find out my printer. Now, Mr. Speaker, answers to the most frequent questions that people were asking me. Number seven question, "Whc announced in the very beginning, to this Province that oil had been discovered on the Grand Banks of Newfoundland? The answer: Leo Barry.

The Leader of the Opposition, that is who announced the first oil discovery on the Grand Banks of this Province." When did offshore exploration start? Did that start with Frank Moores or Brian Peckford? Offshore exploration for oil began back when Mr. Smallwood was Premier. So Mr. Speaker, for the minister to get up full of glee because some more oil has been discovered and to try and pretend that the Tories put it out there and the Tories discovered it and the Tories are the only people in the Province that are happy about it, is silly nonsense. AN HON. MEMBER: We did not give it away though. MR.

CALLAN: We will find out, Mr. Speaker, if the oil was given away when the Atlantic Accord legislation is brought into this House, at the same time that it is brought into Ottawa, that is when we will find out. When we see what is going to happen with the refinery at Come By Chance and when we see what Clause 54 is all about, we will find out. People have said to me, Mr. Speaker, that the Atlani :ic Accord may very well turn out to be a bigger sell out than Churchill Falls ever was and I tend to believe them. L3411 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3411

Mr. Speaker, I was talking about Whitbourne and Chapel Arm and Norman's Cove. I am going to move over now to Chance Cove. Whitbourne is the birthplace and hometown of the Premier. Chance Cove is the birthplace and the hometown of the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: The turncoat from Torngat Mountains. MR. TOBIN: What about your leader? MR. CALLAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, the member for Burin Placeritia West (Mr. Tobin), who is not in his seat- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAEER: Order, please! MR.

CALLAN: - he does not even know what the definition of 'turncoat' is. He does not even know that. Mr. Speaker, what happened in Chance Cove on nomination day and on election day for the municipal government in Chance Cove, the birthplace of the member for Torngat Mountains? On nomination day, Mr. Speaker, not one person came forward - not one person. Subsequently on polling day not one person got elected. Why? Because of the neglect that was brought on the municipality of Chance Cove by this council. Did the Town Council in Chance Cove get any money while they were there? Oh, yes, yes, they got lots of money, Mr.

Speaker. But once again where did it come from? It came from the Liberals in Ottawa. That is how they got their little bit of water and that is how they got their slipways and their community centres and their ball fields and their other community needs. That is how they got them. They did not get them from this government, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: The member's time is elapsed. MR. CALLAN: I have been given unlimited leave. The member did not hear the Speaker when he said, I am given unlimited time. You should have been paying more attention, you see. I can go five days.

Tom Rideout did it when he was over here. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, that is Chance Cove. Mr. Speaker, what happened in Arnold's Cove? That is number five. What happened in Arnold's Cove, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker, I am glad to say and the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) may think that I am not glad to say it but I am, I am happy to say that in Arnold's Cove thirteen people came forward. Why did they come forward in Arnold's Cove? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Why? MR. CALLAN: Because, Mr. Speaker, Adam's Head is a lot closer to Arnold's Cove than it is to Come By Chance.

They are going to have a say about what happens at Adam's Head, Mr. I 11 L3412 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3412

& Speaker. So they have an interest in their town. Not only that, Mr. Speaker, even though, the council in Arnold's Cove resigned en masse a couple of years ago, as the minister will remember, thirteen additional people came forward, but not very many incumbents though, Mr. Speaker, as I was saying just now, they were new people. Dr. Fowlow was among them. The doctor who was driven out of Come By Chance Hospital, was fired because he spoke out about what was happening at the Come By Chance Hospital. He moved up to Arnold's Cove, a prosperous town, National Sea Products is there.

I do not know if there are two people in Arnold's Cove on welfare, a very prosperous town, very prosperous, even though, a lot of people lost their homes in the subdivision there. Newfoundland and Labrador Housing have more homes around this Province repossessed. There are forty-eight in Come by Chance alone in the subdivision that was there. Arnold's Cove will soon have just as many, homes that were lost because of the bureaucracy that exists in Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. But thirteen people came forward in Arnold's Cove, I am happy to say that, Mr. Speaker. What happened in Come By Chance?

In the Town of Come By Chance what happened? Three people came forward. So what will happen in Come By Chance either the minister will try to find some Tories there. It will be difficult, but he may find four Tories there that he will appoint to the council, perhaps, they will have another nomination there, I am not sure. Finally, the seventh, Mr. Speaker, MR. MATTHEWS: There is no one capable if they do not run. MR. CALLAN: That is right. You are right. I forgot that, I am glad you said it. I hope that the speaker was on and it is in the record. They will see when I mail it out. Mr.

Speaker, the seventh town in my district, the seventh and last one that has a municipal government is Sunnyside. Again, Mr. Speaker, Sunnyside, no elections, and sometime in December, I guess, they will have or in the New Year, I understand, there may be an election there. If the district of Bellevue is any indication, if it is indicative, Mr. Speaker, of what was happening around this Province, number one, total lack of interest in municipal politics by the incumbents because of the way they were treated and, of course, number two, Mr. Speaker, as I said, not very many incumbents came forward at all.

I would say 10 per cent, the others were brand new and do not know what they are getting into. That is the story of this resolution and the fourth "WHEREAS", Mr. Speaker, "AND

WHEREAS this may cause problems in the November municipal elections," there is no question that the member for Gander (Mr. Baker) was correct, and it happened as I said, it happened in practically every municipality in the district of Bellevue. I am sure all over the Province the same thing happened. But no, Mr. Speaker, the minister sloughs it off, he says, "No, we are not going to set up a select L3413 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3413

committee of the House to fully examine the effects of these increased costs of municipal government that is foolish nonsense. We are going to carry on the same way we carried on all along." "AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that until its examination is complete, the grants that have been cut and the costs of assessment, be returned to the previous formulas -" no, that again is nonsense. Even though, Mr.

Speaker, we saw over the past couple of years, we saw the Federation of Municipalities at their meeting in Gander condemning this government for the way they cut back on their assessments and their grants and their subsidies to municipalities, Mr. Speaker, I can go on but I think this resolution has to be voted on today so I will give my colleagues an opportunity to perhaps talk about what happened in their districts and how wrong the minister was. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The first person who stood happened to be he hon. member for Eagle River. There was nobody standing on the other side at that particular time. So the hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. BAIRD: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Humber West. MR. BAIRD: I think, Mr. Speaker, it has usually been the practice in the House to at least alternate from one side to the other. MR.

SPEAKER: The tradition is from one side to the other, but when there is nobody standing on the other side at that particular time we must recognize the person who was standing who was the member for Eagle River. MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we understand that that would be the tradition, my colleague indicates to me that he has a matter that is coming up at five or otherwise he would defer, if the member does not mind letting him go. MR. BAIRD: He has been recognized by the Speaker, so do. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: For the information of the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin), I am going to be down at the Newfoundland Hotel delivering a personal letter to the Chairman of CN Marine, regarding CN marine services along the Labrador Coast, because I am not sure that he is going to be there for the two or L3414 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3414

three hours that the reception will be going on. Mr. Speaker, there is no question that services are being cut in this Province by Municipal Affairs. Travelling around our Province of Newfoundland and Labrador you can see the dramatic decline in services. You will see gravel roads, potholes in the pavement, communities partly hooked up to water and sewer systems, etc. However, there are two or three issues that I want to deal with which I do not think have been dealt with before, and I hope the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) will listen to this instead of trying listening to members on his side.

I will again bring this problem to the attention of the Minister of Municipal Affairs, and I hope he will pay attention to it. In the Budget, under Municipal Infrastructure, there is an of $500,000 in grants and subsidies for fire fighting equipment. All communities, as well as town councils and local service districts around the Province, submit applications for fire fighting equipment. Now, Mr. Speaker, what is more important in this Province to many of these towns whose people serve in a volunteer capacity as firefighters?

We have to compliment these people, who endanger their lives in fighting fires, whether it be to protect schools or hospitals or private property or businesses. But half a million dollars is all that is allocated to this programme, while requests for fire-fighting equipment in excess of $2 million have gone in to the Department of Municipal Affairs. MR. J. CARTER: That is certainly not true. MR. HISCOCE: If the member for St. John's North were sitting in his seat, he would probably have my attention, but since he is not in his seat, I will not pay much attention to him.

On checking with the Department of Municipal Affairs, I got the facts, and I say to the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle), it is quite correct that over $2 million worth of fire-fighting equipment has been requested, while only half a million dollars has been allocated, and if we funded $2 million worth of equipment this year and then continued funding in the amount of a half million each year, we would have no problem with servicing and replacing older equipment.

I am concerned about communities of a couple of thousand people, in which there are schools, hospitals, senior citizens' homes, communities of a couple of thousand people, which apply to this government for much-needed fire-fighting equipment. However, I must compliment the government. This 75/25 programme is an excellent one.

But I am concerned about communities which request, say, $10,000 for fire-fighting equipment, only to be told they cannot have it because only $500,000 has been allocated, when Pouch Cove, the Goulds or some other Tory district will get larger pieces of fire-fighting equipment, which cost something like $100,000, or $120,000, or $150,000. All you have to do is give approval for three or four of those and that $500,000 is used up. In my own district of Eagle River, which I have been representing for L3415 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3415

the past six and one-half years, there have been at least six or seven deaths due to fire. One of the things I have been stressing particularly in my own district is the importance of having fire-fighting equipment, so even if the building that is on fire cannot be saved, the fire can be kept from spreading. I ask the Minister of Municipal Affairs to impress upon the government to set aside in the next budget not half a million dollars but $1 million, and that rural areas, particularly those areas which are isolated, be given priority with respect to funds for fire-fighting equipment.

Communities connected by road, such as Conception Bay South, for example, can have emergency equipment sent out in the event of a large fire. So I would ask the minister to give priority to allocating not a half a million dollars, but $1 million to communities for fire-fighting equipment. I have been told by his own officials that if the amount allocated was increased to $2 million it would satisfy everybody concerned, and $500,000 each after each year after that would be okay. Another issue I want to deal with is property assessment.

The former Liberal government in Ottawa approved the Coastal Labrador DREE Agreement, and almost $40 million of that was for water and sewerage. You have communities like L'Anse-au-Clair, Forteau, L'Anse-au-Loup, West St. Modeste, Red Bay and Cartwright getting water and sewerage, but one of the things they were told was that if they were going to get these grants, a couple of millions to put in water and sewerage, then they had to impose a property tax.

In the majority of cases the communities were willing to impose the property tax, but a few, of course, were not and, as a result, did not get water and sewerage. The Coastal Labrador DREE Agreement will wind down in March of next year and there are many, many communities which have not made use of this programme. They are, of course, Pinware, Port Hope Simpson, Williams Harbour, Charlottetown, Black Tickle, Pinsent Ar-in, Norman Bay, Paradise River and others. We hope that this government, because it has Tory friends in Ottawa, will use their influence to try to get as many dollars out of Ottawa as possible.

Hopefully, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Ottenheimer), who has always done great service for this Province, will make sure that we get a new Coastal Labrador Agreement or, if a new agreement is not forthcoming, make sure that money will be added to the existing one. But you have to consider how important municipal services are in this Province and what effect they have on our day-to-day lives. Take, for instance, Mr. Speaker, how St. John's was paralyzed by the storm we had on Friday because the St. John's City Council does not have its snow clearing equipment in place until December 1.

I do not know why they take their cue from the provincial Department of Transportation. Why not have it in place before that? One of the things that storm did, and the Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge) will be interested in this, because when she was Minister of Education she would use her influence to overcome things that L3416 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3416

were not the responsibility of the school boards, she did her utmost to change policies and, at times, even showed compassion. the rest of his colleagues to have new exams written up for these students. 4 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HISCOCK: There were students who were prevented from writing their supplementary exams on Friday because they could not get to Mount Pearl during that storm. Now, in rural areas around the Island, where they could not get to the schools either, what did they do? They postponed the exams until Saturday, when the storm was over. But in St.

John's because it was so late and the storm was not as vigorous by the time people left the offices here in Confederation Building, whether it was 2:00 p.m., 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m., or 4:30 p.m.on Friday - who knows when various people left - the end result was the exams were not postponed. And who are the ones who suffer because the municipal councils of Mount Pearl and St. John's did not have the streets cleared? The students, because they now have to wait until next June to write those exams. MR. MATTHEWS: Why not write up a new one for them? MR. HISCOCK: Exactly! Exactly!

I am glad it comes from one of the ministers. I hope the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews) brings this up in Cabinet, and the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge), who was a former Minister of Education. I know the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) is going to bring it up, and I hope he will convince And even though it was a situation brought about by the storm, the date for the exams could not be changed for security reasons. Being an educator the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth is aware that because there are so many people in St.

John's who have to write those exams, if some were permitted to write them on Friday and others on Saturday, there was the chance that some students might gain access to the questions. But writing up a new exam is the answer and I hope the Minister of Education will bring this up in Cabinet. Although, maybe he does not have to bring it up in Cabinet, maybe he can do it in his own department. But the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth made a very, very, valid and reasonable statement. I am glad it came from the minister and not from me, because the government do not listen to the Opposition members.

But remember the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews) said this, "Do up new exams •" I hope we can now say that the issue has been raised, even though the Minister of Education (Mr. Beam) is not here. The Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge) is sitting in the Minister of Education's place, maybe she could pass that on to the Minister of Education. I am going to be bringing it up again, though not necessarily in Question Period, because it has been brought up and it should be dealt with. Mr.

Speaker, with regard to municipal services, electricity, water and sewerage, roads, health L3417 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3417

clinics, fire-fighting equipment, garbage collection, libraries, all the things that Municipal Affairs look after in communities, we are finding that the communities are becoming burdened with more and more taxation. Why are they being burdened with taxation? Because this provincial government is doing the same thing that the federal Tories in Ottawa are doing to the provinces, cutting the transfer of payments, and if the communities want extra money they have to raise taxes.

The provinces are saying, if we raise the taxes now that we have a Tory government in Ottawa and Tory governments in most of the provinces, the people are going to be upset with us. But that is what is happening. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) can shake his head and say that it is not true, but they brought in the bill which gave incentive to the communities to raise extra money by imposing property assessment - the Province would match every dollar that was raised. That was in place for one year then they amended the bill and cut down the amount of money that was going to these communities.

A lot of these communities would be in much better financial shape if the government, and the Premier, had lived up to the piece of legislation that they brought in in the first place. In a lot of communities they do not have town councils, they have local service districts. I have two or three small communities left in my district which do not have roads and do not have town councils. That, again, Mr. Speaker, is put off on the Department of Transportation which cannot become involved in a 60/40 programme.

With regards to the offshore, and I will clue up on this, it is a good day for the Province to have another well found off our coast, but it is a sad day, too.

Because here we have Petro-Canada, a Crown Corporation set up by the former Liberal Government, given PIP grants to drill off Newfoundland and Labrador for the Canadian people - they found oil - but under the legislation that was brought in by the administration and our Leader, we had a back-in clause of 40 cent; the Province could have bought forty per cent of each well over a period of time and we could have had not only royalties, we could have owned 40 per cent.

We are now seeing more oil being found, but I can tell you this, the money is not going into the pockets of Newfoundland and Labrador to upgrade municipal services, it is going into the pockets of the big American oil companies, Mobil, Exxon and other large corporations. So it is a good day for us because we are getting positive reports on the offshore but it is a sad day when you realize that need so much in the way of services, and we need so much to upgrade existing services, that we do not have this 40 per cent back-in.

Also, I hope that the Minister of Municipal Affairs will do one thing and that is raise extra money for fire-fighting equipment to help eliminate the danger to lives by fire. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Number L3418 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3418

Valley. MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When I came into this hon. House last spring, I was asked to read the reply from the Speech from the Throne, I got up here and I was shaking like a leaf on a tree. I said to myself after that that it would take some time and I would go through a couple of sessions before I would get up and say anything else in this House. But based on what I have heard and seen over the last few months, especially the last few weeks, I do not think I should feel out of place here this evening. Mr.

Speaker, if this resolution had come from any other hon. member on the other side, apart from my colleague from Gander (Mr. Baker), I could probably understand it a little better. I have great respect for the hon. menther for Gander as a municipal politician and, by the way, as a provincial politician as well. I have got no qualms with that. The gentleman was a councillor in the Town of Gander and the year that I got off the Federation of Municipalities, I think the hon. member was elected - on the executive there as well. So on this resolution-i Mr. Speaker, 0

WHEREAS municipalities of this Province are now being forced in a dictatorial manner, to pay the total property assessment costs for the Province" and so on, I have to disagree with it. When the property tax was brought in, the municipalities were given a choice. They could have gone either way. They either accepted it or they did not. One of the conditions in there, if I am not mistaken, was the fact that if you are going to get any water and sewer projects in the future, you had to have property taxes in your municipality. That is up to the municipality itself.

Granted, in order for any municipality to have water and sewer today, as the hon. member well knows, there is no way to pay for it on a poll tax or the amount of revenues that are coming in from the municipality in question. You have to have something like the property tax or the monies paid to municipalities, especially based on property tax like the fifty cents that was in and was reduced to forty-five cents a couple of years ago.

It was last year or maybe the year before that the provincial government and the Department of Municipal Affairs said that they would raise the cost of assessments from .0002 to .0003 in ongoing years. Going back to that time, I was a member of the Federation of Municipalities and the representative for small towns in the Province, which represents any town of 5,000 people or under. I was at that meeting, as was the hon. member, and some very heated discussion took place. Like I said, I was a member of that Federation at that time, the executive, and rightly so.

Regardless of what political affiliation you are, as far as I am concerned if there is a principle there you should stand on it. It was due to our representation there that the assessment itself was left at .0002 and frozen there. It did not go up last year. It did not go up this year. The forty-five cents that was paid on every dollar stayed as it was. It did not go down. There were talks at that time of that going back. So that stayed at forty-five cents. That L3419 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3419

represented an awful lot of dollars to the municipalities in this Province. There is no way some of the municipalities could have survived without the forty-five cents paid on every dollar because it was just getting to the point where poll tax just could not do the job in municipalities, especially the smaller municipalities. Some of the other grants that were brought in included, I think it was in 1979, the Municipalities Grants Act and under that some of the components were brought in.

For instance, the tax incentive grant which I just finished talking about; the road mileage component; the social assistance component; and the per capita component. Mr. Speaker, my municipality, which I was involved in for some ten years, two as a councillor and eight as Mayor - I went through some six elections there - left me quite familiar with what was happening in the smaller municipalities around my region and in the Province as a whole.

The per capita grant, the social assistance component and the road mileage component were excellent for small municipalities, especially municipalities where they had a fairly large road mileage thing involved and fairly high maintenance costs. That came to, Mr. Speaker, at that time, I think, something like $2,000 per kilometer or $3,200 per mile. Specifically, in my own municipality where we had some fifteen and a half miles of by-roads alone - no pavement whatsoever - there was a fairly high maintenance cost and that was a God send to a small municipality such as ours whereby we just had the poll tax.

To bring a property tax into that municipality, where we had such a high concentration of agricultural land, was just not feasible at that time. We would have put a lot of people out of business. We were making it on that rate on the poll tax and based on some of the new grants that came in, some of the new incentives, we did not have to institute property tax. So, I have said before and I say it again, that municipalities in this Province or anywhere have to be run as a business and no business can survive today unless it is viable. The council is only as good as the people in the community.

You can elect who you like. Twenty or thirty can run for office. There are only seven or eight can get election, maximum nine. But if they have not got the backing of the people in the municipality, they might as well forget it. That was the thing that I found, communication was an excellent thing and that is why the property tax was not instituted in a municipality such as ours. So, the components took the place of the property tax. That is why it was not instituted in municipalities such as ours. The social assistance component, the population component went on.

I do not have to tell the hon. members on the other side, they know exactly what that means. Maybe not, just the same, in the town like Gander because of the fact that they had property tax in and it constitutes such a high amount of revenue for them and where they have such a business structure, that that brings in a lot of revenue, whereby in the small municipalities in the Province it does not. The small incentive grants really take the place. L3420 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3420

14 Another thing I would like to touch on, Mr. Speaker, is the payments on capital debt some years ago. Like I said before, they used to take the amount of monies that a municipality had, the Department of Municipal Affairs would look at their bank account and say, "look, this municipality is doing all right, so we will take X number of dollars from them this year." If they did not do that and the municipality did not do it voluntarily, they would automatically cut it from their grants that was coming out from Municipal Affairs. They would take it from them.

But after some representation on behalf of the Federation of Municipalities to some of the municipalities in this Province, it was decided that the Department of Municipal Affairs would make it mandatory for the municipalities in the Province to take out 15 per cent of their budget every year, regardless of what their budget was, 15 per cent of revenues to pay on capital debt. Now, it is gone to 20 per cent. So that in essence, Mr. Speaker, makes it a lot easier on the municipalities because before they were not sure what to do.

They had a certain amount of monies, getting back to what I said earlier, whether it was through good business practices or otherwise, they had monies in their bank account. So then they did not know whether the department was going to take it and they could not make any plans to use it for ongoing maintenance or anything else. So now they know where they stand. It is 20 per cent of their total budget to be paid on capital debt. Mr. Speaker, another thing I would like to touch on is the Municipal Administrators Association for clerks and workers in council offices in the Province.

That is another thing to which the department has had input over the years. That is an excellent programme whereby the Department of Municipal Affairs provides seminars every so often during the year to train clerks and municipal administrators in the Province to help our the small municipalities and the large ones as well. The only danger with it, as I found from being a member of the executive over the years with the Federation of Municipalities is the fact that we trained those people and then you would have them for a year or two and then they are gone.

Part of that was because of the fact that you just could not pay them the wages that were needed. That has been changed somewhat, not in every municipality but it is changing. We are getting there. It is increasing and it is getting better. Like I said before, 50 per cent of the cost of assessments, I think, last year it was paid by the municipalities, I think it was something like $1.5 million was paid by government. That helps out all municipalities, whether large or small. I would just like to touch on the last election as well, Mr. Speaker.

If there is such an apathy there in the Province with regards to municipalities and the way they feel about the government and the Department of Municipal Affairs, I wonder why there was such a large turnout in the election the week before last, something like 1,100-odd in 1981, and if I am not mistaken 1,650 in L3421 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3421

the last election in 1985. So that says in itself, Mr. Speaker, that there are some people there who feels there is a challenge there. So those people either figure that the government is doing something right or else they like to get in and change something. There is nothing wrong with that attitude. Not one thing. There is nothing written or cast in stone. Like everything else, you always try something. This government some months ago, I was on the outside looking in, and they came trying to change the assessments. Okay, that was frozen. So there is always a challenge there, Mr.

Speaker, that every new council or every new member would just like to take on. Another thing I would like to touch on is the Department of Transportation that my hon. colleague here is involved in, the minister. They make available to the municipalities every year, Mr. Speaker, equipment, every year there is a list of equipment that is ready to go on auction. If you inquired about it, they always sent a list and said, "Okay, you have your pick before we put this on auction." To smaller municipalities in the Province and some larger ones, that was an excellent idea.

You could go out and get and tandem truck for $50 or a piece of heavy equipment for $150. I do not know if my hon. colleague from Gander (Mr. Baker) was aware of that or not but I know in a lot of smaller municipalities in the Province, it really helps. This is another reason why some places did not have to institute the property tax. There are things like that that we do not see on the outside. Three or four members on the other side that I was involved with in municipal politics over the years, the hon. member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland), I think the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, Mr.

Decker, and Mr. Gilbert from Grand Falls. When you are outside looking in, it is very easy to criticize, Mr. Speaker, but when you are involved, it is a two way street. If you are in a municipality or leading a municipality or on council, no matter what position you have, you have to make sure that your ideas are know, the department knows it, the minister knows it and whoever else is involved. That brings me to a point. When I was involved in the Federation of Municipalities, no matter when we asked for a meeting with the minister involved, Mrs.

Newhook who was there previously, and the hon. member who is there now, we had no problems getting meetings. On a bi-monthly basis, we met with them. There was a good line of communication open there and yes I would say, when you go for something you reach for the sky and you take what you get. I think that the municipalities in this Province did benefit over the years and I certainly saw a difference, especially in the past five or six years, without a doubt. When you are involved in something like that, you just do not stay there, unless you see some headway.

I am sure a lot of the hon. members in this House, and especially some of the newer members on the other side as well as myself here, unless you see yourself doing something, especially if you are dedicated, you just do not stay there. So everything is a challenge, no matter what you go at. You have to start reaping some benefits from it, if not, you just do not L3422 November 20, 1985 Vol XL No. 63 R3422

Continue. So in dealing with the Department of Municipal Affairs over the years I found it a real pleasure and a real challenge, no doubt. Everything did not come easy. The smaller municipalities in this Province certainly have a role to play and they can certainly benefit from just the poll tax alone. They do not necessarily have to bring in the property tax at all in the smaller municipalities and I will just touch on mine again. I mean we have equipment in our community comparable to anything in the region including the towns the size of Deer Lake and Pasadena. We have not got property tax.

It is just good business. MR. FUREY: You have a good federal member too. MR. WOODFORD: Well, granted some of the buildings did come from some of those make-work projects, but I must say that that has to work in consultation with your council as well. You can get all the make-work projects you like but all you have to do is look around this Province and if you do not use them to your benefit and do it right, you are a dead loss. It can be put to good use, and we did.

Like I said we got fifteen and a half miles of dirt road in our community, plus thirteen miles through the main body of the community, a population of 778, and we have equipment like I said, comparable to any region. We have a fire hall, fire brigade, trucks, and we even have a stadium. Believe it or not, we have got a stadium. Do any of the hon. members want any ideas on how to put something like that in place for about for