ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 171 - 2:00 p.m., MO NDAY, 30 JANUARY, 1984. Pr;nred by the Omce of lhe Oueens Printer. Province of Manitobll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLE Y, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, LR. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP IND NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NOP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 30 January, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . ORAL QUESTIONS Constitutional resolution MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Honourable First Minister.

Will he and his government remove the gun at the head of the opposition and the people of Manitoba, and remove the threat of a closure motion on the constitutional resolution so that debate may take place, in a normal fashion, on the constitutional resolution and not under the threat of closure? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the problem that gave rise to the closure motion was the unprecedented bell ringing in this Chamber. There was not a normal process of debate within this Chamber.

There is the unprecedented use of bell ringing, hours that are wasted in respect to members waiting to speak to the issues before this Chamber because of bell ringing, Mr. Speaker. I think Manitobans are anxious to ensure that this particular matter is dealt with and is resolved, and that we get on with the much more important issues that concern Manitobans, the jobs, the economy, matters pertaining to education and health care and other important aspects of provincial economy and community life. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I remind the First Minister that he refused to have an emergency debate on the health care crisis in this province just 10 days ago, so his words ring hollow. MR. CHAIRMAN: Question. Bill No. 115 - hearings MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the First Minister is: in view of the fact that the bells have not rung on the constitutional resolution, in view of that, will he not consider removing the threat of closure on the constitutional resolution and allowing for debate to proceed on that matter; and as well, giving an opportunity to the people of Manitoba who are here and wanting to be heard in committee on Bill i 15, giving them the opportunity, by leave, for this House to allow the committee to sit tonight and have their presentations heard, to remove that threat of closure and take away the thought of the prospect, the terrible prospect that a constitutional resolution could be put through this House by closure?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I gather that insofar as the convenience of those present that announcements were made on Saturday as to the timing of the submissions that would be made to the committee so that there is no inconvenience, I understand in pertaining to those waiting to make presentations. They were informed Saturday that submissions would be made this morning at 10 o'clock and that submissions would be made Tuesday at 10 a.m.

It's also my understanding that the normal course has been followed to ensure that those from outside the City of Winnipeg have had an opportunity to get their presentations over with out of convenience to those outside the City of Winnipeg. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the First Minister has chosen not to be a member of the committee and listen to the views of Manitobans before the committee, I can forgive him for not knowing SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Question. A MEMBER: Ask for the people of Manitoba's forgiveness . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

A MEMBER: He'd better take all the forgiveness he can get. He'd better take it where he can get it. MR. G. FILMON: I can forgive him for not knowing that no such offer was made to the committee this morning; that in fact no preference was given this morning to out-of-town people.

In view of that fact, will he now reconsider the course of action that he has chosen to follow in imposing closure today, that will not allow the committee to sit this evening and hear the presentations and briefs of many Manitobans who are sitting up in the gallery today and who were here this morning to want to be heard on Bill No. 115? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, though I'm not a member of the committee, it's my understanding that indeed insofar as out-of-Winnipeg submitters were concerned, that they were given that opportunity both Friday and Saturday.

I don't know, indeed, if there are others that remain on the list from outside the City of 5782

Monday, 30 January, 1984 Winnipeg, then certainly they ought to be accommodated. I don't think that is probably the fact though. If it is the fact, then certainly that should be examined. But it's my understanding that Friday and Saturday those from outside the City of Winnipeg had opportunity to present their briefs first insofar as ensuring convenience. Mr.

Speaker, if there are proposals that the Leader of the Opposition would like to make then it seems to me the normal process is for discussions to take place, House Leader to House Leader, in order to ensure the conduct of business of this Chamber and make their proposals in the normal course . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. H. PAWLEY: . . . in the normal course to ensure constructive debate, opportunity for submissions to be made and the arriving at decisions . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H.

PAWLEY: . . . in the normal course to ensure constructive debate, opportunity for submissions to be made and the arriving at decisions to matters that are being debated in this Chamber. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Premier has chosen not to sit in committee and listen to the briefs of the people of Manitoba, will he be meeting with his constituents of Selkirk to explain his government's position and not have his Government House Leader explain this French language issue to his own constituents who are anxious to know why he is taking this stand on this issue? ' HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I wasn't aware the House Leader had been explaining the matter to the constituents of Selkirk. I have had opportunity to discuss this matter with constituents in Selkirk at meetings along with other matters of the economy, and jobs, and health care. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to take this opportunity to mention to the Leader of the Opposition, that I've had the opportunity to serve the constituents of Selkirk through a constituency office ever since 1969 and constituents do bring many concerns, many problems to that constituency office for discussion . . . MR. R.

BANMAN: Better not sign a long-term lease. HON. H. PAWLEY: . . . and for involvement. Thirdly, Mr. Speaker, I would be interested to obtain the coupons so that we would know just who is concerned, who is not concerned, that Mr. Grant Russell brought to my office last Thursday. Mr. Russell brought a large box of coupons that he alleged to be contained within envelopes. I had asked because it was my understanding those coupons were to be delivered to myself to have opportunity to have those coupons so that I could communicate and deal with the concerns of individual Manitobans . A MEMBER: They don't want that. HON.

H. PAWLEY: . . . to attempt, Mr. Speaker, to discuss understandable concerns by Manitobans. I had hoped that Mr. Russell would have given me the opportunity to have done what I thought he had represented to Manitobans he would be prepared to do. But, Mr. Speaker, he took that box from my office with all the alleged coupons within that box, did not leave those coupons with me so that I would know, for example, those constituents in Selkirk who had corresponded with him, or constituents in Tuxedo, or in Morris, or any other particular constituency. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder, indeed, my office advises me they've had some follow-up with Mr. Russell, and apparently he persists in not wanting to leave those coupons with me in the same way the Member for Elmwood wouldn't leave coup ons . If honourable members and organizations wish to transmit a message to the government, Mr. Speaker, it would seem to me to be appropriate to leave such coupons. It's my understanding - I may be wrong - that the petition was not left with the Lieutenant-Governor either for her perusal. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the concern that the Premier has expressed, to know the views of his constituents on this matter, will he attend a meeting with his constituents this week then, to hear their concerns and to be able to exchange his ideas and views on the matter of the French language resolution with them? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether the Member for Tuxedo has some intelligence better than me, and the Leader of the Opposition has received some invitation that was intended for me.

I have not been asked to attend a meeting. Mr. Speaker, let me assure the honourable member that I am always available to my constituents to deal with any issue at any time. Bill No. 115 - closure motion MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, the First Minister indicated that discussions between House Leaders could break the impasse that we're currently in. I ask the First Minist er, Mr.

Speaker, will he reach over and destroy and tear up the closure motion that the Government House Leader has on his desk, and I will guarantee you that the opposition will debate the important resolution amendment before us? MFI. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. V. SCHROEDER: You said we would be through by the end of December of'83. 5783

Monday, 30 January, 1984 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't think . HON. V. SCHROEDER: You've broken every promise, you're totally dishonest, you promised to be through. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe that there's any additional information I can provide to the House Leader, that I have not already provided to the Leader of the Opposition, the Member for Tuxedo, in respect to the question just posed. Constitutional Amendments MR. H. ENNS: Through you, Mr.

Speak er, I am appealing to the First Minister to facilitate further debate on the very important question of the constitutional amendment, a debate that the opposition has not filibustered, not rung the bell on once and in fact have used up very few of their speakers. Mr. Speaker, I ask him - and despite what the Minister of Finance is saying - I ask him if he will give us some assurance or if he will impose on his House Leader not to bring on the closure motion in 20 or 30 minutes from now, this opposition will debate the amendment. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A.

ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Opposition House Leader suggests that the resolution to amend The Manitoba Act has not been filibustered by memebers opposite, and the bells haven't been rung with regard to that amendment. Mr. Speaker, I remind the Honourable Opposition House Leader of the behaviour of opposition members last summer in the debate on that resolution. Mr. Speaker, I remind the Opposition House Leader of the two weeks of continuous debate before the bill was introduced, from January 5th on, on the resolution, in which members on this side spoke only one for five to members opposite.

In fact, the complaint was, from members opposite, that we weren't debating, when we offered and asked for the position of members opposite, when instead they did filibuster, they spoke for 40 minutes at a crack about the proposal from last summer, didn't even address the new amendment until Thursday of two weeks ago when the Member for Turtle Mountain proposed a major reversal and asked for validation of the statutes and a position from which members opposite have been backpedalling ever since. Mr.

Speaker, if they have a position, we would like to hear it, but the difficulty we have had is that they are no longer willing to agree to deal with this matter, they only want licence to filibuster and move further amendments and debate at length and obstruct the process. Mr. Speaker, the Opposition House Leader asked if we were willing to debate the resolution and we said of course, but we want to know how long you want to play this game. We want to know when you are willing to resolve the issue; we spent over eight months on it now. Give us an indication. Do you want a few more days?

Do you want a few more weeks? Give us an indication. That's all we have asked for. Mr. Speaker, that kind of co-operation has been refused every time. We have also tried, Mr. Speaker, to open up some line of communication with regard to the intention of the amendment and any possible suggestions with members opposite. Every one of those approaches has been rebuffed, Mr. Speaker. Every attempt we have made has been rebuffed, both with regard to the content and with regard to the process.

If members opposite really want to assume their responsibilites under the parliamentary system, then they should get their act together. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, all of these smooth and slippery explanations by this Government House Leader do not cover up the facts. The facts are that only three to four speakers of the opposition spoke to the main resolution during last summer.

My question is: will the Government House Leader not acknowledge that most of those speeches, and indeed some of the filibustering, was done on the referral motion, to make sure that the people of Manitoba would get to hear the reason that we are debating? There was not supposed to be any public hearings. We had to take that position last summer. Will you not agree we had to take that position last summer so that the people of Manitoba would have an opportunity to hear what this government is all about? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker , as usual, I'm compelled to agree with the House Leader of the Opposition.

He is right. The opposition did filibuster the referral motion at great length last summer. Mr. Speaker, he is also right that I think there were only three or four opposition speakers on the resolution last summer. There were close to 20 during the first two weeks of January of this year, there were close to 20, but, Mr.

Speaker, two out of three ain't bad - I think that's how the song goes - but the third and most important one is that on June 27th there was a commitment from this government to hold public hearings and immediately thereafter, notice of motion for those public hearings was given, placed on the Order Paper in this House. Mr. Speaker, when I'm agreeing, there's silence on the other side. Perhaps they'd want to hear the point on which I disagree so that the debate can take place. June 27th, notice was given. Mr.

Speaker, this House debated a filibuster from shortly after June 27th, when that notice was given, until August 18th. I have trouble entertaining any suggestion from members opposite who agree that they had four or five speakers on the resolution last summer, in excess of 20 in the first two weeks of this month and launched, by their own admission, a six-week filibuster last summer to obstruct this business. Mr. Speaker, enough is enough; the people of Manitoba want this issue resolved. 5784

Monday, 30 January, 1984 Bill No. 115 - closure motion MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I return with a final supplementary question to the First Minist er. Mr. Speaker, I give the solemn assurance publicly to all members in this Chamber, including the editorial writers of the Free Press, that the bells will not ring today if the First Minister can accede to my request to withdraw the closure motion, withdraw the gun of closure from the back of our head, this afternoon. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

I appreciate the solemn assurance of the Member for Lakeside, the Opposition House Leader . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. A. ANSTETT: . . . that the bells will not ring today but, Mr. Speaker, the people of Manitoba are not asking for the assurance of the opposition that the bells won't ring today. They're asking for the assurance of the opposition that they will not abuse the parliamentary system through filibuster, obstruction and bell ringing. Mr.

Speaker, members now want two-and-a-half hours of debate today, so they can put the question on the Member for Fort Garry's sub-amendment and move another sub-amendment. We welcome that and, Mr. Speaker, if they're willing to set a timetable for dealing with the business before the House, we're flexible on that. I've made offers repeatedly to the Opposition House Leader; they've all been rebuffed. Mr. Speaker, the opposition finds themselves in a tough spot. They now want to say that they won't ring the bells for one day because they're getting so much flack for their irresponsible obstruction. Mr.

Speaker, I'm sorry, that is not good enough. They have an obligation to the parliamentary system. They have an obligation to live up to, and 14 hours of bell ringing on the bill, an obstruction on the resolution, is not acceptable to members on this side or to the people of Manitoba. Bill No. 115 - hearings MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the question to the House Leader.

Can he confirm that no staff was available in the Clerk's Office Friday night or Saturday, thereby preventing many Manitobans from adding their names to the list of those who wish to appear before Bill 115? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I believe that the Clerk of Committees was in the committee Friday night and all day Saturday.

I believe that the .Clerk's Office has been open normal hours, as is always the practice for the Legislative Assembly offices, that the committee did not finish its hearings on Saturday , that the committee sat again this morning, and the office is open. But, Mr. Speaker, usually people who want to place their name on a list for a committee, normally between second and third reading, either phone in advance of the committee being called, or if the committee hearings are being held, come and register with the Clerk of Committees. That's the normal process.

In addition, during normal office hours the Clerk's office takes calls from people who wish to appear before the committee. I would remind the Honourable Member for Elmwood that on Friday night the committee went through virtually the whole list and on Saturday did the same thing again. The bulk of those on the list were actually absent and did not appear. Mr. Speaker, this morning the committee started through the list again, people were present and the committee heard as many as it could by 12:30 and will sit again tomorrow at 10 a.m. That's the purpose of the committee. Mr.

Speaker, I'm not sure if members opposite would like the Clerk's Office to start placing ads in the newspaper, advertising committee process between second and third reading. That hasn't been part of our process between second and third reading on a bill and I'm surprised that members want to start setting those kind of precedents for the future. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the House Leader - if he'll keep quiet - I would like to ask the House Leader, given the fact that no one was in the Clerk's Office and people were phoning the Clerk's Office Friday night and Saturday, will he ensure that there is staff available in the Clerk's Office to take phone calls from people in Winnipeg or outside of Winnipeg who want to have their names put on the list? Will he give us that assurance that they will not only be there during normal hours from 9 to 5, but in the evenings as well until the hearings on Bill 115 are over? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, there are the same opportunities for registration to be heard at the committee with regard to this bill under consideration between second and third reading as have always been available. Mr. Speak er, it is not in my power as Government House Leader to require the Clerk's Office, which is the responsibility of Mr. Speaker to do something which is abnormal and extraordinary as the member suggests. But, Mr. Speaker, it is perfectly in order for members of the public to call during normal business hours, or if they wish to appear at the committee to register with the Clerk. That's been the normal practice.

I don't know why the member suddenly wants a deviation from that practice, unless he has some other thought in mind as to how the committee process should operate. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a question to the First Minister who was attempting to make some feeble case about the fact that he wasn't allowed to 5785

Monday, 30 January, 1984 keep and retain 17,500 letters and petitions that I had accumulated. Will he confirm, Mr. Speaker, that I offered to let him or a member of his staff see those coupons or ballots and those petitions in my office, that they could come to my office and peruse them? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker. does the Premier and his laughing colleagues not recognize that many of those people who signed those petitions and ballots and coupons are civil servants and have personal reasons why they do not want those names to fall into the hands of the government? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I may be under a misunderstanding - and I am subject to being corrected by the Member for Elmwood - but if I recall correctly the advertisement in the paper, with the coupons being part of that advertisement, were addressed to myself as Premier of the Province of Manitoba and the people that forwarded coupons did so with the understanding and with the representation that they would be transmitted to the Premier of Manitoba. That's my understanding.

There was no indication in the advertisement as far as I can recall that the Premier would attend in the office of the Member for Elmwood in order to quickly count or quickly peruse the coupons, but that the coupons would be addressed to the Premier, thus giving the Premier the opportunity to be in a position to communicate the contents of the matters that are before us with those unconcerned Manitobans. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, would the Premier be interested in having me bring those coupons and petitions to his office so that he could peruse them while I was there? MR. SPEAKER: Order please .

I don't think that question asks for information regarding a subject within the administrative competence of the government Student enrolments - universities MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to address my question to the Minister of Education. I am wondering if the Minister can confirm that she met last Friday with the delegation of university students who are protesting the government's restraint program as it pertains to university funding? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minsiter of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I can confirm that I met with the delegation of students from the three universities. It's a general practice as a matter of fact I like talking to students, I like hearing from them and I meet with them often. This is one of the regular meetings that I frequently have with them. MR. C. MANNESS: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I am wondering if the Minister advised the students to pressure other Cabinet Ministers to increase government funding to universities. HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, Mr.

Speaker, I did not, and I must indicate publicly that my hands are not tied either, as was reported in the Free Press article. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I would like to say what I did say to the students during that meeting since the Member for Morris has raised the issue. The students had originally arranged a meeting previously that was to meet with a number of Cabinet Ministers. The purpose of the meeting was to communicate their feelings and information about what they thought would be the effect of the guidelines being applied to university funding, particularly on students.

They wanted to tell us what they thought the effect would be on students and on student programs, student employment, student accessibility. For reasons that came up at the last minute, the meetings were not able to go ahead. However, I met with the students so that there would be somebody meeting with them. At that time, what I said to those students, is that the information they were bringing to us was very important information that we wanted to hear as a government.

I also indicated that if they were not able to set up a meeting with other Cabinet Ministers, that they would be interested in hearing because we don't just want to hear from administration, Mr. Speaker; we don't just want to hear from faculty members; tt is important to us to hear from the students at the universities of Manitoba what they think the problems are.

So what I said to them was that we did want to hear from them and, in the absence of being able to carry on with the meeting, it would be important for them to provide that information on accessibility, tuition costs, services to students and student jobs to other Ministers, and they might consider doing that in a letter, because I knew that my Cabinet colleagues wanted to hear that information. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister then, in view of her last answer, whether she wholeheartedly supports, then, the government's 3 percent restraint program? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, what I did say to the students, what I have said to the teachers, what I have said to the trustees and all of the groups that I have met with them in having the discussions about the guidelines, is that I do believe that as important as education is in the Province of Manitoba, we are not exempt as a system from having to try and do our share and see what we can do to meet the limited resources that are available, and I do believe that. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speaker, I will then ask the next question to the Minister of Finance, seeing the Minister of Education appears to wholeheartedly support the government's program. 5786

Monday, 30 January, 1984 I would ask the Minister of Finance then whether he will be amenable to the request from the same students later on this week for an increase in the 3 percent guidelines. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I had actually been intending to go to that meeting as well. There had been a meeting set up for the week previous and I was free for that meeting; I wasn't free for this one. I am sure that I will have an opportunity to meet with the students in the next few weeks.

We recognize that the guidelines that we have put out there will create some difficulties in some areas. We indicated that in the letter itself, and we are looking at the effects that it might have on various institutions in the province and we hope that we can ensure that, overall, we can have those institutions living within the 3 percent guideline. Wildlife status report MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Natural Resources.

Last Friday the Minister of Natural Resources had to cancel an important meeting on wildlife issues in Thompson because of the fact that this Legislative Session has been dragged on and on by continued bell ringing and delaying tactics. In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that these issues are of concern to Thompsonites, and in view of the fact they are probably of greater concern to Thompsonites than the single issue before us for the last eight months here at the Legislature of Manitoba, I would like to ask the Minister whether he can assure Thompsonites that he will reschedule that meeting as soon as possible.

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am most anxious to continue with the dialogue on wildlife. I have had the opportunity to visit the southwestern part of the province, had an excellent meeting in Killarney; I am looking forward to meetings in Dauphin, The Pas and Thompson, but I trust that we can get out of this bell-ringing episode and the admissions today about the filibustering for many, many weeks and get on with the business of government in Manitoba. Lotteries MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R.

BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister in charge of Lotteries. On Thursday last, I asked him whether or not the government would be running casinos; in other words, hiring civil servants to run casinos. At that time, he said that he doubted whether the employees would be government employees. I wonder if he could confirm now in Saturday's paper, the Winnipeg Free Press, the government has advertised for an assistant casino manag er, a bingo manager and a bingo hall co­ ordinator. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, at no time did I say I doubted if they would be government employees, but I did say that they could be either term people or civil servants. I certainly didn't give the answer at the time; I said that that was not finalized. As far as the positions that have been advertised, those are different positions and, of course, if we are going to give the service, we are going to have to have the staff. MR. R. BANMAN: I quote from Page 5771 of Hansard where the Minister says, "I doubt if they will be employees of the government." Mr. Speaker, obviously .. . HON. l. DESJARDINS: Keep on reading, keep on reading.

A MEMBER: What does the next line say? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the Minister whether or not he would be able to table, for the members in the Legislature, a detailed document which says what the government is going to be doing in the field of lotteries in the next little while, so that we will have, instead of sort of dealing with it on an ad hoe basis, that we have an overall policy as to how he is dealing.

I think the Minister will appreciate that we are getting a lot of calls, as members, dealing with the new Nevada implications, the new bingo implications, from many of our constitutents; and I wonder if he could give us something that will show us the direction the government is going and how they plan to deal with this whole field under this new corporation. HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, yes, I guess I can do that, but I want to warn the honourable member that this will not be done in a question of a couple of days. Some of these policies are not quite finished. We have been working quite hard on that.

When this is complete, I will see that all the members of the House get a clear policy statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Health and his responsibility for the Lotteries Commission. Could the Minister indicate if the position for marketing manager for the new Manitoba Lotteries Corporation was advertised and bulletined? HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, here goes that same speech as the former Member for Springfield. 5787

Monday, 30 January, 1984 Let me say, although I have stated quite clearly in this House on a number of times, the complete staff of WLMD was taken over, which was the marketing arm of the Western Canada Lottery products, has been !aken over by the new foundation, all the staff has been, and none of those positions were advertised. MR. R. BANMAN: So I take it from the Minister's answer that the marketing manager position was not advertised and bulletined. Could the Minister indicate the salary range of that marketing manager? HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I certainly can give this information.

I haven't got it now, and I will see that information is given. Winnipeg Jets MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister of Sport, I would like to ask him, in light of the fact that noon today was supposed to be the deadline for an agreement between the government representatives and the owners of the Winnipeg Jets Hockey Organization, can he enlighten members of the Legislature where that matter stands now? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. l.

DESJARDINS: The last information that I was given is that the Winnipeg Enterprises issued a statement that the matter was closed and I think that the committee is meeting the negotiating committee - and the recommendation apparently will be made that the question be terminated, that the negotiating stop. MR. W. STEEN: If that is as the Minister has stated, would he encourage the provincial representatives to try and get their counterparts from the city and get back to the table with the Jets people? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, the fact that we've agreed to try to help the city in finding a solution in retaining the Jets here, I think makes our position quite clear, but one must remember that the province is not in a position that it can negotiate. We have nothing to negotiate with as far as the hockey team is concerned. The contract is signed between the hockey team, the Jets, and the Enterprise. Now, the request to the province was this - and by the city I should say - that were we interested in trying to find a solution to keep the Jets here, the First Minister replied, without any hesitation, that yes, certainly we were.

It didn't take very long in the first meeting that we had to feel that the best and only way - there was no way that any of these two levels of government could make a direct grant to a professional hockey team - the only way that it was felt that could be done would be to try the two levels of government to try to retire the debt or part of the debt on the arena enabling the Enterprise to then renegotiate an agreement and I don't think that the province could do anymore. We would love to keep the Jets here. We think that they're an asset.

We think that it's certainly a great thing for Winnipeg and Manitoba, but we cannot negotiate anymore than that. Canada Health Act MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. l. SHERMAN: Thank you. Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Minister ·Of Health. In view of the fact that some spokesmen for the medical profession in Manitoba are now saying that The Canada Health Act, or certain provisions under The Canada Health Act, may - and I emphasize the term may, Mr.

Speaker - may encourage young medical professionals to leave this country and leave this province and perhaps seek opportunities in the United States or elsewhere, can the Minister now answer my repeated question to him in this Session, Sir, as to what is the extent of the fiscal and financial penalties this province faces under the The Canada Health Act? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, I'd like to answer that, but let it be known, let it be recorded that I've tried on more than one occasion to answer this and I was prevented by a colleague of my honourable friend.

The question - and I have a few, maybe I'll be on my feet for a few minutes now - one of the questions, what was the penalty for extra billing. Now this is very difficult. The figure that we are presently using for extra billing in Manitoba would be $1.2 million. However, since the physicians have not been required in the past to report this type of information to the Manitoba Health Services Commission, the figure at best is a guesstimate.

It's obvious that if this is a penalty, well then the act or the regulations will have to insist that the physician will have to report the amount that they charge to the Manitoba Health Services Commissio n. So that is the best that we have . It's a guesstimate at this time, approximately $1. 2 million, and as of January 1, 1984, there were 23 opted-out physicians out of a total of 1,809 physicians regis terPd with the Commission. We have been advised that certainly not all opted-out physicians extra bill, or those that extra bill, extra bill every patient that they have. So, this is the best.

Accre ditation of Oph thalmologists HON. l. DESJARDINS: I might take this occasion to answer the last question, and that was the ophthalmology. The question was asked that Dr. Anhalt had been in touch with me and then I'd asked the Deputy Minister to meet with them and that wasn't done. That is true. Dr. Anhalt, who then was the acting head of the department, wrote me on June 3rd and Bxpressed his concern and I've asked Mr. Edwards to meet with them. But during that time, Dr. Laxdal was appointed acting head of the ophthalmology department, after Dr. Anhalt had resigned on July 1st, and Mr. Edwards met with Dr.

Laxdal on July 11, 1983 to review all the service in the province. 5788

Monday, 30 January, 1984 At that meeting it was agreed that a committee should be established - I'm talking about July 11th now - to review ophthalmology services including the multifacets of eye care in the province, covering the teaching program at the university and the Health Sciences Centre, Manpower services provided and projected capabilities of the facilities at present to handle our future need for patient care, not only in Winnipeg but in Manitoba as a whole. An initial meeting was held in August to establish the following memberships: there was Dr. Amie Laxdal; Dr.

David McCullough, who then was the vice president of professional programs; Dr. Edward Anhalt, who knew what was going on because he was a member of the committee; Dr. Paul Shuckett; Dr. David Singh; Dr. James Rooney; Dr. John Wade of the Dean of Medicine; Dr. Al Cooke of the Commission; Mr. Franklyn Cook of the Commission; and David Pascoe, the director of our research and planning branch.

The terms of reference were established as follows: (1) to study the manpower situation in Manitoba; (2) to review the post-graduate and undergraduate programs in Manitoba with a view to develop graduates that suits the needs of Manitoba; (3) to view the present hospital facilities that exist by the ophthalmologists who practise in the province. The first formal meeting was held on September 9, 1983 which reviewed the terms of reference, established the research which would be required and the data information which would need to be requested by the Health Services Commission.

The second meeting was held on November 7th which viewed the existing equipment in present hospitals who was establishing the priorities for the committee's activities which are as follows: a waiting list, facility and space ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. l. DESJARDINS: . . . equipment, outpatient . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Perhaps the Honourable Minister would like to table his written answer for the benefit of other members. The time for Oral Questions has expired. HON. l. DESJARDINS: ... Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'm not going to table it, it was asked verbally and repeatedly it was asked, and I'll give the information in the House, or I won't give it at all. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. H. ENNS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside on a point of order. MR. H. ENNS: It's a well-established practice in this House, Mr. Speaker, is when the question that is asked for calls for a lengthy answer, courtesy to this House and this Chamber is to table that lengthy answer. A MEMBER: Right. MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

ORDERS OF THE DAY CO MMITTEE CHANGE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MRS. D. DODICK: Mr. Speaker, I have committee changes on Privileges and Elections. The Member for St. Johns will replace the Member for Gimli, and the Member for Thompson for Radisson. ADJOURNED DEBATE ON RESO LUTION CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT RE: OFFICIA L LANGUAGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health, that the debate on the motion of the Honourable Attorney-General respecting the proposed amendment to The Manitoba Act concerning

Section 23 thereof, and on any amendments proposed thereto shall not be further adjourned. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. It is moved by the Honourable Government House Leader, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health, that the debate on the motion of the Honourable Attorney-General respecting the proposed amendment to The Manitoba Act concerning

Section 23 thereof, and on any amendments proposed thereto, shall not be further adjourned. Those in favour, please say Aye. Those opposed, please say Nay. In my opinion the Nays have it, and I declare the motion lost. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order please. I have been advised by the Official Opposition Whip that the opposition will not return before 2:00 p.m. tomorrow. In view of this advice I have informed Chamber staff that they will not be required to remain on duty outside normal working hours.

I have made arrangements to secure the Chamber, and the sounding of the bells will be minimized to the greatest extent possible. I am accordingly leaving the Chair to return at 10:00 p.m. this evening in order to adjourn the House. (And the Division Bells having stopped ringing at 10:00 p.m.) MR. SPEAKER: The time of adjournment having arrived, this House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2:00 p.m. tomorrow (Tuesday). 5789