Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 172 (30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-172

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:3 0 o'cl ock, Wednesday, June 12, 19 74 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INT RODUCTION OF GUESTS 4813 MRo SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the ho nour able members to the gallery where we have 20 students , Grade XI standing of the West Kildonan Co llegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. Penner. This school is located in the con stituency of the Honourable Member of Seven Oaks, the Minister of Health and So cial Develop mento We also have 22 students, Grades VII, VIII and IX standing of the Acadia Junior High School.

These students are under the direction of Mr. Rob son and Mr. Symchyck. This school is located in the con stituency of the Hono urable Member fo r Fort Garry. We have 28 students of Grade IX standing of the John Gunn School. Th ese students are under direction of Mr. Lefteruk. This school is loc ated in the cons tituency of the Honourable Member fo r Transcona, the Minister of Labo ur. And also there are 11 students of Grades VII and VIII standing of the Suncrest Sch oo l. These students are under direction of Mr. Maendel. This school is located in the con stituency of the Honourable Member fo r Emerson.

On behalf of all the hon ourable members I welcome yo u here this afternoon. Presenting Petitions. Th e Honourable Member fo r Fort Garry. PRESENTING PETITIONS MRo L. Ro (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry) : Thank yo u, Mr. Speaker, I beg leave>Sir, to present a petition to the Chamber asking, seeking an amendment to the Act that incorpo rat ed the Winnipeg Real Estate Board 70 years ago. I need the leave of the House and the in dulgence of members on both sides to make this possi ble, Sir, because I have to invoke Rule 108 and Rule 112 .

The Real Estate Board, if I may explain, Sir, has a limitation on its borr o wing powers in its Charter. It is involved ;now with building a new building and building co sts have escalated far beyond its earlier anticipation and it needs to have an amendment to that Ch arter to permit it to proceed with its building plans.

The actual fo rmal petition and fo rmal amendment are being prepared in the Legislative Co unsel's office but I wish to advise the House of this mea sure so as to seek their indulgence and their leave to invoke Rule 11 2 arid therefore waive Rule 10 8 which prescribes that petitioners fo r a private Act must advertise in the Gazette and other wise indicate by fo rmal notice of their intention.

You will appreciate, Sir, that the Real Estate Board cannot now com ply with that request and I would seek the indulgence of all ho nourable members in invoking Rule 11 2 which wo uld permit us to waive Rule 10 8 in this case and mo ve ahead in the Real Estate Board's request. MR o SPEAKER: Does the Honourable member have leave? The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, may I indicate that the Hono urable Member fo r Fort Garry con sulted with me in my capacity as House Leader, and we went over the rules.

What he has stated is correct, and it's really amazing, I must say, that the situation has developed that the Real Es tate Board is just now aware of the limitations of a bill that was passed some 70 years ago. I can onl y speak, of course, --(Interjection) -- well, my colleague, the Minister of Finance says, "Didn't the Real Estate Board know that prices fo r real estate had gone up? " I guess they should have but not as far as they were con cerned within their own Act. Now , I have had some limited discussions with my co lleagues.

We -or at least I can only speak for myself -I would reco mmend to my coll eagues that permission be given to the Honoura ble Member fo r Fort Garry to proceed as expeditiously as possible and certainly I think that he would agree with me that as we are, hopefully, nearing the termination of the session, that we would not go on fo r another week because of his bill. So I say, Mr. Speaker, as far as I am co ncerned, I would reco mmend to my coll eagues, if he can have the concurrence of his colleagues, that leave be granted. MRo SPEAKER: Th e Honou rable Member fo r Fort Garry. MR 0 SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker , could I just say that I very much appreciate the efforts

4814 June 12 , 19 74 PRESENTI NG PETITIONS (MR. SHERMAN cont 'd) ... of the Honourable the House Leader, the acting Hou se Leader, the Minister of Labour in this respect, and my own House Leader, the Member fo r Mo rris made it possi ble through their cou nsel fo r us to proceed in this manner, I wish to thank them both, and I can assure all members that this matter can be dealt with in the Chamber in a period of 10 or 15 minutes, so that it won't affect the scheduling towards prorogation of the House. Th ank you. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? (Agreed) Thank you.

Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Co mmittees; Ministerial statements and Tabling of Reports ; Not ices of Motion; Intro duction of Bills; Questions. The Hono urable Leader of the Oppo sition. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SIDNEY SPIV AK Q. C. (L eader of Official Oppo sition) : Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I can direct my question to the First Minister.

I wonder if he can confirm that his Go vern ment, either through himself or his Minister of Health, have received literally hundreds and po ssibly thousands of requests fo r the Government to proceed with the con struction of the addition at the Manitoba Cancer Research fo r a clinic? MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Ross mere) : Well, Mr.

Speaker, I can give my hon ourable friend an approximation as to the number of letters and telegrams received by my office, but I have no way of kno wing, because there's been no cross referencing yet1as to whether some of these duplicate or do not duplicate co mmunications sent to the Minister of Health. Appro ximately 650 letters and/or telegrams have been received relating to the subject matter. MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition. MR.

SPIV AK: I wonder if the First Minister can indicate whether the allocation s of the Health Resource Fund set up by the Federal Go vernment is really a judgment to be made by the Government, the Provincial Gove rnment? MR . SCHREYER: Well, frankly, Mr. Speaker, I am certainly not in a position on the basis of the informa tion I have on the matter. I'm not in the po sition to confirm that there is any action on the part of the province that has resulted in a lesser amount being expended fo r cancer research than has normally been the case. MR.

SPIVAK: Well, the Minister of Health has arrived, and I wonder then, if he can confirm now and I believe at the time this qu estion was first asked he wasn't in a po sition to do that, can he confirm now that the Manitoba Cancer Research Clinic do have in their po ssession $7 50, 000 to match $7 50,0 00 fro m the Health Resources Fund to be able to com plete the addition to the clinic ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HO N. SA UL A. MILLER (Minister of Health) (S even Oaks) : Yes, Mr. Speaker, I think I indicated it last time that the funds raised locally are certainly available. MR.

SPIV AK : I wonder if the Minister of Health can indicate whether the Government takes the po sition that this is not a-- takes the posi tion that this is not the prior ity item for proceeding with respect to the Health Science Centre development? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, the Go vernment doesn't take the po sition that it is or it isn't. The Gove rnment takes the po sition that the Health Science Centre has to itself come fo rward with its priorities through the Health Services Co mmi ssion. To date this has not been their first priority. MR .

SPIV AK: Yes, I wonder if the Minister of Health can confirm that the Go vernment has authorized over $ 20 0, 000 fo r the Northwest Co-operative Health and Social Service Centre fo r its op erating expenses and fo r its first year of operation? MR. MILLER: Only partially correct, Mr. Speaker. Th e go vernment has authorize d expenditures if medical practitioners are available. MR. SPIV AK: I wonder if the Minister can confirm that the Gov ernment is proc eeding with this matter independent of the stud ies now being undertaken with respect to the Health Science Centre and the expansion s that are expected there?

MR . MILLE R: There's no connection between th ose two , Mr. Speaker.

June 12, 19 74 4815 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPIV AK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister can confirm exactly how many studies the department have undertaken with respect to the expansion of the Cancer Research facility at the Health Science Centre? MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Oppo sition would kno w of some of them. I know of one which was started in the sixties. I believe it's called the "Hamilton Study" which was made in 19 68 , I believe. That' s the only major study. They, too , did not come out with cancer as a major prior ity.

The only other study if you want to call it that is now finally co ming down to the wire on it. We have asked two very highly knowledgeable people in the field, as I indicated earlier, to come into Manitoba and to work with the Health Science peop le, the various branches in the Health Science Centre to rationalize and priorize the program both of con struction and the services to be rendered in it. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Leader of the Oppo sition. MR.

SPIV AK: I wonder if the Minister can confirm that the refusal of the Go vernment to permit the Manitoba Cancer Research facility to be built does not relate to the capital cost but relate to the conc erns the Go vernment have for maintenance and upkeep ov er the years? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . MILLER: Well, Mr. Speaker, certainly the ca pital cos ts is always ju st the small portion of the total ongoing costs.

Th e capital cost usually is exceeded within two years by the ongo ing operating co sts both in the terms of equipment that's required, in terms of manpower required, in terms of what happens within the facility thereafter. MR . SPIV AK: I wonder if the Minister can indicate whether he has discus sed the matter of treatment in this province with respect to cancer with the officials of the Manitoba Cancer Research facility? MR . MILLER: No , Mr. Speaker, I haven't discus sed it directly with them.

I did see minutes of their mo st recent meeting where they discussed the matter with the representatives of the Health Sciences Centre Bo ard and of cour se the Cancer Institute, Cancer Research Founda tion are members of the Health Sciences Centre Board. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition. MR. SPIV AK: I wonder if the First Minister , if I can ask a question of him, whether he can confirm that he has met with Dr. Israels who is the head of the Manitoba Cancer Research and Tr eatment Center with respect to the problems of the research centre and the treatment of patients in Manitoba. MR.

SPEAKER: Th e Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: No , Mr. Speaker. I am not aware of any requests fo r any such meeting althoug h I could check with the office to ascertain whether such request has come in recently. I might indicate further to what has been indicated by my co lleague that we do not feel that we are proc eeding any differently than in years gone by with respect to the alloca tion of mo neys, with respect to health research, medical research.

There is always a problem of trying to meet the desire and expectation for increased concentration of research effort and, as the Hono urable Leader of the Opposition knows, that expectation is there between tho se who have a particular interest in cancer research, tho se who have an interest in research into causes of muscular dystrop hy and cystic fibrosis , etc. MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Member fo r Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell) : Thank yo u, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the First Minister also, in the absence of the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

I would like to ask the First Minister if the Gove rnment plans any transpo rtation assistance to tho se fishermen of No rthern Manitoba who now sho uld be out fishing on the northern lakes in Manitoba but who are not at the present time out there, waiting fo r go vernment guidance in the programs that are go ing to be put fo rward by go vernment. MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, as the Honourable Member fo r Birtle-Russell is aware, the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board, which is a federal-interpro vincial agency, has had to face the question of extraordinary transportation costs with respect to comme rcial fisheries in No rthern Alberta and in the sout hern Northwest Territories and with respect to tho se three fisheries in No rthern Manitoba and I believe it is a case of three or four fisheries only that the matter of transpo rtation , abnormal transportation co sts, is one which we would

48 16 June 12 , 19 74 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ... be better pleased if the Fr eshwater Fish Marketing Corpora tion would for mally deal with the matter and give us an indication of intent so that we would know whether or not that agency will deal with the matter or clearly will not deal with the matt er, in which case we will have to take it under further con sideration. MR . GRAHAM: A supplementary question.

Is the province then, not prepared to offer assistance to tho se fishermen now, and then deal with the Federal Fres hwater Fish Marketing Corpora tion later, or are they waiting fo r the Federal Government to show the leadership that sho uld be provided by the Prov ince of Manitoba? MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, if yo u'll allow I would say that' s a stupid question because leadership- it' s not a case of leadership being sho wn by a pro vince as oppo sed to the Federal Government.

There is a transpo rtation subsidy necessitated or deemed to be necessary in the case of the Hay River and certain Northern Alberta fisheries. Th at is being provided under the aegis of the Fr eshwater Fish Marketing Board and not because of the failure because there is no failure-on the part of the Province of Alberta. They are not pro viding any subsidy on transpo rtation and the same reasoning would seem to apply in the case of Manitoba.

But if the honour able member wants to guarantee, if he wants to be absolutely sure that there will be no federal involvement by the federal agency, then the best thing to do is to cause the pro vince to take on that respon sibility first and that' s a way of guaranteeing that the province will be saddled with that problem thereafter. MR . GRAHAM: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the First Minister, then , if the province is now prepared to tell the fishermen of Northern Mani toba that they can expect no further help from the Province of Manitoba in this fishing season. MR .

SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, they will certainly receive the same help from the province as we have extended in the past. Th at do es not mean that we are prepared to take on to provincial shoulders the problem of transpo rtation costs and po ssible transportation subsidy for the reason that we feel there shou ld be analogous treatment to the fo remost northerly fisheries in Manitoba as has been extended by the Fr eshwater Fish Marketing Co rpo ration to the fisheries in Northern Alberta and in the southern part of the Northw est Territo ries. MR . SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition. MR .

SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

With the acknowledge ment that there have been approximately 650 requests or wires or letters to the Premier and the Minister of Health in conn ection with the Manitoba Cancer and Research Tr eatment Clinic, I wonder if the First Minister would be prepared to give an undertaking to meet with the officials of the Manitoba Cancer Treatment Clinic to determine the exact extent and need both fo r research and fo r tr eatment in Manitoba and possi bly reconsider, as a result, the priorities that are now in the pro cess of being determined so that this facility may be in a po sition to mo ve on a little bit quicker than normal.

MR . SPEAKER: Th e Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure the Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition would recognize that the most advisable way to proceed would be to proceed to have this meeting but to do so in a way that involves the Minister of Health and the members of the board or representative group of members of the board of the Health Sciences Center. After all a decision of this kind, wrestling with a problem of this kind, must perforce involve the Health Sciences Center as well. MR .

SPIV AK: Well, in view of the answer of the First Minister , I wonder if he would be prepared to give this as an undertaking to meet within a reasonable period of time in conn ection with this matter now, particularly because of the request that has been made of the Go vernment. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker , certainly there would be no wish to resist any request to meet to discuss the problem and accordingly, if the request is fo rwarded or if it has been already fo rwarded, when it is received we'll make arrangements to meet but in the appropriate forum with the appropriate persons represented. MR .

SPEAKER : Th e Honourable Member fo r Fort Garry. MR . SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable the Minister of Health and Social Development. I wonder if he can advise the House where cancer stands on the killer list in Manitoba, whether it's the greatest killer or the fourth greatest killer and

June 12, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) .•. whether that po sition has changed relatively in the last few years. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That' s a statistical question. Orders fo r Return. ORDERS FOR RETURN MR . SPEAKER: Th e Hono urable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker , pursuant to Orders of the House that were filed separately, Orders fo r Return Nos. 64 , 69, 72, 75 and 79, I have several copies of said Returns to Orders fo r the table. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Hono urable Member fo r Fort Garry. ORAL QUESTIONS Con t'd 481 7 MR.

SHERMAN: I'd like to direct another question to the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development and ask him whether his department has conducted or is conducting any studies with respect to the relative incidence of cancer and the gro wth- the increasing incidence or decreasing incidence of the disease. MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Minister of Health. MR . MILL ER: Mr. Speaker, the province doesn't do it per se. I think it's Statistics Canada I'm sure has this sort of infor mation. It 's available throug h Sta tistics Canada. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR .

SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, is it correct then that the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics is not undertaking th at kind of study in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Com merce. HON. LEON ARD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry and Co mmerce ) (Brandon East) : Mr. Speaker, it is the policy of this Gove rnment not to duplicate any service, statistical service, throug h the Bureau of Statistics that is already being pro vided by Statistics Canada.

As the Hono urable Minister of Health indicated, that infor mation is available and has been made available on an annual basis fo r many a year, the incidence of disease in Canada by province. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Th e Honourable Member fo r Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (For t Ro uge) : Mr. Speaker, I have a question fo r the First Minister. Can the First Minister tell us if there's any update or change in the estimate of lake levels on Lake Winnipeg that can be expected to peak this mo nth or next? MR . SPEAKER: Th e Hono urable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, it is corre ct that lake levels are expected to peaklate. this month or early next month and they will peak at record levels, record high levels. I have not goJ an update for the past five days with respect to the actual anticipated level to the nearest inch but I will undertake to get that fo r to morrow. MR . AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

Can the Minister inform us whether the discuss ions now being held by off icials of the Water Resources Branch with the municipalities on the west side of L ake Winnipeg conside ring diking, is that to deal with permanent diking or is it to just deal with the situation to be expected this summer ? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I'm not quite sure ho w to answer that. Diking so-called temporary diking- has a life duration of several years to it and unless the diking is deliberately taken down or removed, then even tempo rary diking will last fo r perhaps some thing approac hing a decade.

We have in the case of the Riverton area dikes in place which were really built on an ad hoc and temporary basis which are still available, they're still there and serving some relevant purpose this summer. There is diking taking place no w in and around Dunnotar and south of here and I think th ey have the nomenclature of tempo rary dikes but unless a decision is taken later to remo ve them, they will be there fo r somewhat mo re than a temporary basis. MR . AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the First Minister's answer, can we take this as an indication that the water levels on Lake Winnipeg at the record high levels or at the very high levels will be a mo re permanent state and that the municipalities and lands adjacent to that lake can be expected to deal with extraordinary or difficult water conditions fo r years to co me as a consequ ence?

4818 June 12, 19 74 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SCHREYER : Well, on the contrary, Mr. Speaker. The genuine expectation is that the problem of high water levels on Lake Winnipeg will be assuaged for all time to come, that is to say in a relative sense.

Because whatever the level in a state of nature would have been as a result of the installation of Lake Winnipeg regulation, the levels can be kept two to 2. 2 feet below the high that would occur in a state of nature which is relatively simple to sort of comprehend, because it's the level in the state of nature, it would be 71 9 feet let us say, which would be very, very high indeed, even higher than this summer, then subtract 2. 2 feet and that would be the level at which it could be kept as a result of regulation. MR . AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I want to file a supplementary.

Can the Minister tell us whether the Hydro installations on Grand Rapids and along the Winnipeg River have been, or can be, used to ccntrol the flow of water in the Lake in order to provide for some easing of the record lake levels that we can expect. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, unfortunately il!s not so. I wish it were otherwise but the forebays behind each of the Hydro Electric power dams on the Winnipeg River and at Grand Rapids are filled to capacity, the ponding is full and in fact, there is necessary spillage taking place at all these points. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. HON.

DAVID BLAKE (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, my question's to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. I wonder if he can inform the House if the AI technicians in Manitoba have now been relic en sed and they are operating legally within the province? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agricult ure . HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I indicated to the member sometime ago that that whole process has been under review and a policy statement is not yet ready to be made. MR . BLAKE: Could the Minister give us any idea when the policy statement will be made? MR . USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, the member should be aware, and is aware that we have undertaken a very substantive change in the program and therefore, because of the new legislation on the books and the way in which we want to administer the program, it will require a degree of time before we know precisely how we will do just that and the coopera tion of the technicians is going to be very important to us. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Labour. ORD"ERS OF THE DAY- GOVERNMENT BILLS- NO. 85 MR . PAULLEY: Would you please call Bill No. 85 Mr. Speaker? MR .

SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Mines. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . GRA HAM: Mr. Speaker, just before we closed at the morning session, the First Minister . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: ... permit an interjection. It's my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that the Agricultural Committee desires to convene at the present time to consider the Animal Diseases Act. I thought it would be of interest to members of the House and of the Agricultural Committee that that committee will be meeting almost immediately. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, while I'm not a member of the Agricultural Committee I am a member of the agricultural community and I am vitally interested in the affairs of the Agricultural Committee so perhaps maybe we can defer debate on this ... MR . SPEAKER: Order please. MR . GRAHAM: No, no Mr. Speaker, this is quite all right. I will continue at the present time.

Sir, just before we concluded the morning session, we had the First Minister speaking on the principles involved in Bill 85 and Sir, I am very reluctant to get involved in some of the technicalities of the various sections of the Bill and I would like to deal with the prin ciples more than anything else in this particular contribution to the debate. Sir, I think the Member for St. James, in his presentation to the House, supported by the Member for Riel

June 12, 1974 BILL 85 (NIB. GRAHAM cont' d) ... and the Member fo r Virden, put fo rward to you and to the Legislative Chamber the opinion of members of this side regarding the technicalities and the misinformation which we on this side of the House consider have been provided to the House by the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources , Sir, I don't want to get involved 4819 in that debate but I do want to deal with the principles and in particular, some of the points that were made by the First Minister towards the closi ng

section of his contribution on this debate. One of the things that struck me very strong ly, Sir, was the fact that the First Minister recognized that over the perio d of the 50 's and 60's the price of oi l in the Pro vince of Manitoba remained remarkably static. It didn't vary that much, two or three cents, but he said in the last four or five years that the price of oil has climbed - not only in Manitoba or in Canada but on the international market - it has climbed dramatically as people suddenly become conscious of the finite po ssibilities of fo ssil fuel reserves.

And one of the po ints that the First Minister made at th at time was the fact that while the price has increased dramatically he said that oi l will not rot in the ground and he said the value of that 10 years fro m now may, in fact, be far greater than it is today and we have to be careful of the reserves that we have and protect them for future use and, Sir, I think that that statement by the First Minister really and truly is the intent of all this rigmarole, the highly technical schedules and tax structures that are being put forward to us, and I want to ask the First Minister this, that if he is really intent on that program, Sir, I would ask him, would it really not be far better to fo rget about a taxing program, to come out and tell the people straight what it is that yo u want, that you tell them, the oi l compa nies, that you do not want them to produce any mo re at the present time, that you want to conserve that fo r the next generation , and you impo se quotas and say that we are going to conserve and I think the people of Manitoba, the oil compa nies, the con sumers, would all agree that the First Minister would be making a wise decision.

Here at last was a man that was concerned, here was a man, at last, that was concerned not just about today but he was concerned about tom orrow as well. But Sir, I don 't believe that to be the case because the program that the First Minister put fo rward to us is one that does not in any way contribute to that philo sop hy.

The taxation po licies that he has brought fo rward in this Bill, Sir, do not contribute to conse rvation but what it do es do , it says to the oil produc ing people of Manitoba , that we are go ing to tax yo u and we are going to tax you and tax you and tax you and we are going to have the right to review, without coming to the Legislature, that taxation po licy until we can effectively close down those wells and save the oil for future generation s. I believe, Sir, that in essence that is what the First Minister was really trying to tell the people.

At the same time, I don't believe that the First Minister truly understands some of the basic principles and the operations of the oil industry and Sir, I do not profess myself to kno w all there is to know about the oil industry or the op erations of it but I do kno w, Sir, that you start from one or two basic premises: that oil has been discovered in Manitoba , that oil do es not exist indefinitely, that as the production fro m any particular field carries on, that the cost of produ cing mo re fro m that field increases dram atically as every barrel is taken out of that field.

The first barrel taken ou t from an oil field is the easiest, Sir, and as you take mo re, the costs increase dramatically but Sir, the taxation policy, the prog ram that's set fo rward in this bill, makes no cons ideration of that - it do esn't take into account the fact that the oi l that was produced in 196 0 or '64 or '65 is going to be anywhere near the co st of produc ing the same vo lume in '74 or '75 and so on and I'm not too sure whether the Minister of Mines has considered this.

I think that the Province of Manitoba, in its rush to be the nice guy in a Federal-Provincial Conference and say that we are the appeaser , that we are the rational, logical approach in the oil industry, in that approach has really helped the con sumer in Manitoba. I don 't believe that the program the Government has brought fo rward has helped the con sumer , I don't think it has helped the pro ducer, because in the approach that the First Minister has taken, Sir, he has always tried to deal with the problem of oil on a co mmon basis, on a co mmo n basis.

I'll tell you, Sir, that production of oil in Manitob a cannot compare with the production of oil in Ontario or the pro ductio n of oil in Northwest Territories or in the Arctic or in Alberta , that each oil field has to be considered on its own merit and I doubt if the First Minister has taken that into con sideration in the Prov ince of Manitoba.

4820 June 12, 19 74 BILL 85 (MR. GRAHAM cont'

d) Sir, it isn't as tho ugh we had oil under every quarter

section in the Pro vince of Mani tob a because we know we haven't got it. Sir, the production of oil in Manitoba is at the very maximum, minimal. We have a fringe area in the oil production field and the cost of pro duction in that fringe area is going to far exceed the cost of production in a maximal area and I do n't believe that the Province, in their consideration of taxation policy, has really taken that matter into con sideration. --(Interjection) -- The First Minister says yes we did. --(Inter jection)-- Sir, the First Minister starts quoting figures to me.

I listened, Sir, to the pro po sals put forward by the Member for St. James and the Member for Riel and the Member for Virden , I'v e read the propo sals put for ward by the Minister of Mines and Natural Resourc es and Sir, having checked quickly some of the figures put for ward, I do believe sincerely that the Member for St. James has quite ho nestly pointed out errors in the calculation s of the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

When he raised the issue he sincerely ho ped that the First Minister would respond to some of the question s he posed when the First Minister answered but, Sir, when the First Minister , in his contr ibution to this debate, chos e to ignore the contrib utions of the Member for St. James, I would say, Sir, that that only substantiates the guilt of go vernment in admitting that their figures are in error. Sir, it is not my intention nor is it the intention of the Member for St.

J ames or other members on this side, to carefully sco re Brownie points because we can prove the Go vern ment to be wrong in their figures. The real intent of members on this side of the House - and I would sincerely hop e that the real intent of members on the other side of the House - is the same, and that is to make sure that calculation s are correct, that people truly know what the intent of government is, that they ho nestly know ... --(Interj ection)-- Certainly. MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honoura ble First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, since the Honou rable Member fo r Birtle-Russell is conc entrating on figures just at this mo ment, could I ask him if he is aware, if he agrees with the on e basic figure that in a period of thr ee years the proceeds to the pro duc ers net after taxes, after these adjustments , will be in the order of 70 percent increase over thr ee years? MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Member for Birtle-Russell. MR .

GRAHAM: Sir, and I want the First Minister to kno w, is he aware that as the supplies of oil diminish that the costs of produc ing an equivalent amount of oil can triple and quadruple. --(Interjection)- - Yes. MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honou rable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Is the member aware that in the

schedule that is being propo sed, as the volume of pumping decreases and the output therefore per day decreases, the amount of tax take is also decreased so that the net available to the pro duc er is com pens ated? MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourab le Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: And is the First Minister also aware, Sir, that the volume of pumping need not decrease if increased production costs are put forward, that the volume can be maintained but the cost increases dramatically. --(Interjection)-- I didn't say that.

Sir, what I am saying and what I say again is that if the go vernment is intent in conserving oil for future generation s in the Province of Manitoba I, as an individual member, will not complain and I would say thi s, Sir, that the majority of the people of Manitoba would not complain. But, Sir, if that is the intent of government then they need not bring forward a taxation bill, all they have to do is put quota restr ictions on. But see, Sir, we find go vernment is never really straightforward.

They say that if we. can achieve the same degree of succ ess, if we can eliminate increased production , if we can effectively stor e it up - and we can do that by taxing com panies out of existence - if we can do it by taking every available nickel and dime that we can out of somebody else's pocket , we will do so. But, Sir, we fo und on e thing, and I think it was po inted out by the Member for St.

James, that the amount of revenue that is accruing to the Province of Manitoba, in the amount of benefits that are go ing to be accruing to the people of Manitob a in the for m or reduced price on gasoline, leaves a little margin- and I think the Memb er for St. James said there was something like $3 million missing- and is talking about a to tal of $1 2 million accruing to the province and $8 million or so go ing out. But there is a difference.

So it lo ok s, Sir, to me as though the province is going to say to the people of Manitoba that we will give you two cents back and we're going to put on e cent in ou r pockets, that for every two cents that goes to the con sumer in Manitoba there's on e cent

June 12, 19 74 4821 BILL 85 (MR. GRAHAM cont' d) •.. is go ing to go into the gov ernment coffers and we're going to give you a two to one ratio and that is a pretty fair return, Sir. At the same time, we just heard the Minister in charge of auto mo bile insurance the other day stand up and say that two to one is not good enough ; he says, "We will give yo u 85 percent. For every do llar invested the consumer is going to get 85 cents return. " But here we find, Sir, that the con sumer is only going to get 66 2 / 3 percent and I admit, Sir, that my figures could vary one or two percentage points.

But roughly speaking, roughly speaking tho se figures are pretty close, Sir; For every two cents that the con sumer is going to get there's going to be one cent go into the go vernment's coffers. And, Sir, I say that's not good enough. If the intent of the First Minister is to pass on to the con sumer any reduced costs that are po ssible under the new prog ram, then I would say 100 percent is the very minimal amount that sho uld be passed on to the con sumer and if the Minister had gone ov er a hundred percent he would have been less liable to criticism.

Saskatchewan did that , Sir, but the presentation that was put fo rward to this Chamber just befo re lunch by the First Minister did not answer the questions that were asked by this side of the House; in fact they posed mo re questions; questions that the people of Manitoba are going to want answers to . Because it look s, Sir, right today, that somebody is being sho rt-changed. It 's either the consumer in Manitoba or the oil producers in the Province of Manitoba.

Either the oil producers are being over-taxed to the point where they can no longer exist to carry on pro duction and thereby has the provi nce effectively accomplished, what the real intent is or else the consumer in Manitoba, who could con ceivably get three cents reduction , is only going to get two. And, Sir, I say that's not good enou gh, not good enough fo r me and it' s not good enough for the people of Manitoba. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. BILL NO. 95 MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: I wond er, Mr. Speaker, whether yo u would kindly call Bill No. 95. MR .

SPEAKER: The propo sed mo tion of the Honourable First Minister. The Hono ur- able First Minister. MR. SCHREYER presented Bill No. 95 ,

an Act to amend The Legislative Asse mbly Act for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the pro visions of Bill 95 are provisions which have been prepared as a result of some informal discus sions between both sides of the House.

I have not personally been involved in these discussions but the contents reflect what I believe to be, and which I concur with other ho nourable members to be, a reasonable adjustment with respect to certain emol uments and expense allowances and expenses of the conduct of office of ho nourable members of this Assembly. The Province of Manitoba has, from time to time with respect to its Legislative Asse mbly, see n fit to make adjustment s.

These have been, over the many long years always, mo re or less in line with those of sister jurisdictions of approximately the same population , of approximately the same per capita incom e across the country. In mo re recent years and in the past year and a half or so, the effects of inflation have certainly affected ho nourable members in exactly the same way as ot hers who make up the economy and society of our country and our province.

In so me jurisd ictions, such as the federal and some of the larger . pro vinces, there have been in mo re recent years, 169, '70, '71 and so on , major adjustments made so that the emolume nt, expense allowances that relate to federal members of the House of Co mm ons and the Senate, members of the pro vincial parliaments of Ontario , Quebec, British Colu mb ia and Alberta have been adjusted in mo re recent years. What is propo sed here, I am satisfied, and I believe all ho nourable members would be satisfied, reflects a bringing into line mo re or less of the level of indemnity and allowable expenses.

What is novel in the bill is that we are asking ho nourable members to consider and to approve a clause which will pro vide for the irrational known understood standing fo rmula for adjustment of indemnity and allowances from time to time in accordance with increased cos ts of living

4822 June 12, 19 74 BILL 95 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ... and related expense costs. No w over the years we have had if not here, in other jurisdictions , royal commis sions , special standing com mittees, special com niittees of persons external or ou tside of the Legis lature engage in study and making recomme ndations back to members of the Asse mbly. And I believe we went through that exercise here in Manitoba in 19 70.

Some of the reco mmen dations that were brought back, they were interesting but some of them, while some lent themselves to implementations, others were deemed to be not desirable to proceed with. The Province of Ontario , they, too, have had a rather impressive array of personalities assigned the task of looking at the Legislative Ass embly Act in its entirety and the matter of the level of indemnities and expense allowances. Some of the reco mmendations , in my opinion, have also proved to be interesting but not particularly practical fo r implementation.

We, fo r example, received a suggestion- nothing new about it - that the level of MLAs indemnities and allowable expenses someho w be put on a fo rmula, standing fo rmula basis, relating to judges or puisne judges of the Superior Courts. There are some apparently rational arguments in support of that kind of approach; there are so me, ho wever, good rea sons why that is not particularly the most desirable approach.

Also it has been suggested on a number of occas ions from time to time that perhaps the m atter of level of indemnities and expenses be related by fo rmula to that which those adjust ments that take place in the public service - and I believe that was given very serious considera tion in one of the sister pro vinces, I believe Ontario - that , too , has certain inherent weak- ness or undesirability inherent in it, in that it puts legislato rs in the posi tion of, you know, less than comple tely arm's length po sition from negotiated increase that take place between the Executive Coun cil on behalf of the province and the bargaining unit or association on behalf of the public service.

So in the final analysis, we saw fit to propo se here, we fully regard it as being valid and tenable, a proposal that the com po site industrial wage index, which is an impartial and factoring that is co nducted or carried ou t by the Bureau of Statis- tics to be used as the base and the other statistical index, which is equally detached and impartial, that of the annual change in the CPI or Con sumer Price Index, to be used as the two facto rs in determining the extent to which, if any, there will be in any year, an adjusir ment to the basic emolument and allowable expense relating to members of the Asse mbly.

If this is agreed to , then it remov es from arbitrariness and from contro versy the question always reoccur ring as to what level the indemnity and the allowance should be. Inevitably there is some argument as to whether it should be 300 or 600 dollars higher or lower and this sort of argumentation is never-ending. And it's not particularly rational no r is it particularly edifying. So while this is no vel, I feel, this provision, I feel that it is entirely tenable and it is reco mmended here in the bill.

There are some adjustments as well in Bill 95 with respect to the use of telephone privileges and travel co sts and allowances. I have two amendments, I believe, to propo se at co mmittee stage with respect to the per mileage allowance to all members that have a mileage or a distance to co ver between their electoral division and the City of Winnipeg to this building and also some clarification to offer with respect to the use of air service and with respect to the available use of commercial air carriers where it is a less cost alternative.

In addition to that, there is some clarification as well in this bill with respect to the co mputing of pension allowance and eligibility to contribute towards the pension fund, etc. Also clarification and extension or expansion fo r ho nourable members of the use of telephone privileges so as to give members mo re access to any part of Manitoba so that they may mo re effectively , and at no personal co st to them - and why should it - carry out their function as legislators be they in the Gov ernment or the Opposi tion side.

Improved and increased access to co mmunication is really so obviously necessary that it hardly merits further mention on my part. Then, too , there is some adjust ment that is proportional and in line with respect to the per diem allowances that are paid to honour able members who must live away from their ordinary place of residence or domi cile during the session and also with respect to inter sessional co mmittee meetings and expenses relating thereto . These adjustments are all proportio nalized so as to bear the same relationship one to the other.

I might add as well that there is prov ision in here to enable standing co mmitt ees that meet inter-sessionally to more logically and expeditiously deal with the problem of filling

June 12, 1974 4823 BILL 95 (MR. SCHREYER cont' d) ... vacancies on co mmittees that occur fro m time to time inter sessionally. I kno w that on e can argue that this could be perhaps dealt with under the rules and that is possibleo It can also be dealt with under the Legislative Assem bly Act and it is my distinct impression that there is no incompatability here as to what we are attempting to do with respect to filling vacancies or pro viding for resignation from co mmittees inter sessionally.

Th ere is no inco mpatibility here as to what we are attempting to do with respect to filling vacancies or provi ding for resignation from commi ttees inter-sessionally. There is no incom patibility between that and what we may seek to do under the rules. All in all the subject matter of this bill, in

summary, is to bring about the required adjustments that are needed because of the passage of a few years in which no adjustments have been made and also to bring into line with levels obtaining in a number of other juris diction s in Canada and other provinc es. And ho nourable members, I think, can feel them selves co mpletely justified in causing this particular course of action , of adjust ment to take place. (Applause) MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition. MR . SPIV AK: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the First Minister fo r his presentation and at the outse t would indicate, or reiterate the statement that he made that adjustments have not been made in the last few years, and that any group in the Legislature, any go vernment, I think , in dealing with this matter deals with a subject that is con sidered delicate by some, but nevertheless is a matter that must be dealt with in the normal cour se of events. Mr.

Speaker, the 57 members who make up this Legislature basically are responsible for the overse eing of a quarter of the provincial econo my, 25 percent of the provincial econom y is covered by the votes and the proceedings that take place in this legislature. And there is a responsibility on the part of tho se who assume that respon sibility to devote and di spend their time and energy in carrying out that for which they've been elected. Each year, Mr. Speaker, we have seen substantial increases in the authority obtained by Government and in Government involvement in our life.

Albeit there is a basic difference in philo sophy between the members opposite and ourselves as to the degree and as to the question of emphasis and that debate will continue on and on and on. But having said that , Mr. Speaker, it should not be, it should not be left to be unsaid that we have a responsibility, as legislators in this province and as legislatures in other provinces and the House of Common s, in dealing with a mult itude of Government activities that at this time and in this stage in histo ry now become a full-time op eration. And it would be wrong , Mr.

Speaker, for some to believe that this is a part-time oc cupation. It is not. I daresay , Mr. Speaker, in talking to my colleagues ov er the period of time in between sessions, I find that in many respects my colleagues are busier in between sessions than they are during the session. Now, I think there may be a few smiles --(Interjection)- smiles on the oppo site side. But in reality, Mr. Speaker, when they are in session they are here in the Legislature and they are tending to the work that has to be done.

When they are in their con stituencies they are dealing with the prob lems of their con stituencies vis-a-vis any phase of go vernmental activity or in those areas in which Gov ernment conc ern or Govern ment regulation has undertaken or is required. And the result is, Mr. Speaker, that it is a daily conc ern for them.

The Federal Gove rnment, in this year or this past year, recognized the need fo r additional support fo r con stituency work by the Members of Parliament as another vehicle to allow the member in the Federal seat to be able to deal with the multitude of problems that come his way and to be in a po sition to be able to service his people in their relation ship with gove rnment. And this is develop ing albeit in a way which is less but never theless is develop ing in the same way within this province. I think , Mr.

Speaker, that the Go vernment in this respect who have to take the respon si bility have taken a respo nsibility and have provided a rational approach, and I say that very directly. But I'm going to say something which the First Minister is not in a po sition to say fo r himself, and I am go ing to say it, Mr. Speaker, and there will be suspicion on some that I am saying thi s because this is something that I would like to attain fo r myself. I stand here as the Leader of the Oppos ition and as a person who would contest for the office that the First Minister ho lds. And I would say, Mr.

Speaker , in sincerity that it would be my hope that I would be in a po sition to attain that pos ition --(Interjection)-- well, I know that I can compete against the Minister or the Attorney-General. But in any case, in any case,

4824 June 12 , 1974 BILL 95 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ... Mr . Speaker, having said that and having recognized that in the light that I have said it and the way in which I'v e said it, I think the point has to be made that in the indemnity and calculation s that have been presented into this House, the recog nition that it should be given to the First Minister's position is not so. And I th ink it makes it very difficult , Mr. Speaker , for the First Minister to stand up and say that , and I think it may very well appear on my part as if I am suggesting something that I would be seeking for myself. But, Mr.

Speaker, I think - and I can put it another way if the Honourable Minister of Labour --the question that would have to be asked is whether the First Minister is really, in the salary range that' s being of fered, really only worth the difference of $1, 000 between the Minister of Labour or the Minister of Con sumer Affairs or other s. No w, I say that facetiously but I then come back to the reality. The First Minister's po sition warrants the recognition that it should be given. And, Mr. Speaker, (Applause) and I have no hesitation in saying that and I have no hesitation in indicating, Mr.

Speaker, that in my opinion this is the one change that I think, in addition to the other two changes, that sho uld be made and I recognize that the First Minister is not in a po sition to ask for this or even to concern himself with this for very obvious reason s. But I think if we are going to talk about a rational approach, and I think we are, then I' think that that sho uld be considered and that is a matter that possibly we should discuss further. The other matter then comes to the question of the Leader of the Oppo sition's office. --(Interjection) - - Well I can't prop ose an amendment.

It' s a Government Bill. --(Inter jectio n) -- But it has to come fro m the treasury branch, but I would comme nd them to that , and I would com mend them to that and recognize, as well, the peculiar position that the First Minister is in in this matter, but I suggest that it is some thing that sho uld be seriously considered; and I think on this side is so mething that we recognize is a differentiation that sho uld reflect on the respon sibility and the po sition and the expense that' s attached to that po sition , because I am not unmindful of the fact that there is a great deal of expense that is not understood by the public, that is attached to that po sition.

No w, if I may, for just a few mo ments, I'd like to talk on the Leader of our Oppo sition's position. I do so , Mr. Speaker, recognizing that there has been a discuss ion between the Fir st Minister and myself that the matter will not be discussed in this Act, but I believe will be referred to the Board of Internal Co mmissioners-- to the Board of Internal Economy Com missioners -- and that has to do with the operation of the Leader of the Opposition 's office and I guess in one sense it would also have to do with the Leader of the Liberal Part y' s office or the Leader of the Third Party.

And I have pointed out in discus sion s and these- I'm sorry ... A MEMBER: In proportion. MR . SPIVAK: ... in proporti on - -(Interjection) -- Well, you kno w, Mr. Speaker, I think --I'm not sure of the first fight but I think the second fight I remember, yes, I think I was a Member of the Treasury Branch at that time --and I think that there was considera tion that was given at the time, but I al so remember, Mr.

Speaker, and recognize that , having sat on that side and having sat on this side, that if we're going to deal we should be dealing in the reality of what is happening with respect to the invol vement of the 57 people in the to tal governmental process. The fact is, Mr.

Speaker, that I've indicated a quarter of the economy is covered one way or the other in this Legislature, and is answerable one way or the other in this Legislature; and the votes that take place here are important in directing what occurs with Go vernment having the respon sibility for the overall direction and of Government having the responsibility for the overall presentation. But, Mr.

Speaker, what has happened is that the role of the opposition and the role of the MLAs is changed as additional responsibility has had to be assumed by them as the work load has in fact increased and so has the office of the Leader of the Oppo sition. And I would hop e that there'd be con sideration given for pro viding for that office the additional research and secretarial service so that it can function in a way which would be co mmensurate with the increase that is taking place. This is not meant , Mr. Speaker, as a plea on my behalf.

In many respects I'm prob ably mor e fortunate than maybe some in handling their respon sibilities. But I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the office, as I indicated the office of the Premier, the office warrants additional changes which will pro vide

June 12, 19 74 4825 BILL 95 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd ) ... for the --which will pro vide the capability of being able to carry out the responsibility that is assumed. In many respects the office of the Leader of the Oppo sition as well as the off ice of the Leader of the Liberal Party or the Leader of the Third Party is comparable to the Minister but the suppo rting services are not the same. And I would ho pe that that would be considered and I've had the opportunity in discussing that with the Pr emier and would ho pe that that would be referred and there would be favourable consideration to it. So , Mr.

Speaker, we accept that this is a Treasury Bill in which the Gov ernment makes its presentation , in which we have really no right to amend; in which we have to give our approval one way or the other on it. We recognize that in the approach of the indexing there is an attempt to try and so lve a problem that every legislature has had to deal with and every Government has had to deal with over the years. We recognize the increased co sts that are borne by tho se who are successful and sit in this Legislature.

We recognize the increased con stituency demands and cons tituency co sts that are bo rne, and would suggest that with respect to what has been provid ed it realistically is a mo derate approach, by no means it is more than a mo derate approach, to deal with the pro bl ems in our contemporary so ciety and we accept it at that. But the indexing does pro vide, in many respects , a rational approach to the propo sal. And so I will close , Mr.

Speaker, with the reco mmendation that I have indicated to the Treasury Branch that they should be persuaded to recognize the posi tion of that of the First Minister so that it will at least mean trying in the legislation, in a way that will not reflect just this situation in terms of this Go vernment and this Oppo sition, lut will reflect truly what should be the position vis-a-vis the man who is given the main responsibility of conducting and running the Government and which amounts to the mo st important and signifi cant business enterprise in this pro vince. One has to realize, Mr.

Speaker, that if we were to look at the universities, if we were to look at the Crown corpora tio ns , if we were to look at the whole ho st of Gov ernment undertakings, including some who m I believe would be considered in the Deputy Minister category, consid ering other revenues that are realized by them, that in effect they are suppo rted, or they receive an actual remuneration which is greater than that of the First Minister, yet the First Minister has the total responsibility.

Now, the truth is that he 's not there fo r as long a period of time no matter ho w one looks at it, and in to day' s politics it's a very sho rt period of time; and I ho pe that will fo llow true in the case of the present First Minister. But having said that , Mr. Speaker, I also recognize, and I think we should recognize, the posi tio n, the responsibility and the recognition that sho uld be given. (Applause) MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Member for As siniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (As siniboia): Mr. Speaker, I do wish to jus t make a couple of brief comm ents on Bill 95.

I would agree with the First Minister when he indicated in his remarks that what he's in troduc ing in the bill is in line with some of the other prov inces and I would concu r with that because I had an opportunity to check with some of the other legislation and I would stat e that it is in line with some of the pro vinces that are the same population as ours and have the same population. But I would like to state that some of the other prov inces as well, Mr. Speaker, do make other facilities and services to some of their members that we do not here and I'm sure that the First Minister's aware.

I kno w that in fact in one of the pro vinces, in British Colu mbia one of the parties only has, I believe three members, and I understand there is a full time research person provided fo r that thr ee members fo r the party on an all-year-ro und basis. So I'm sure that the First Minister is aware of that. I'm not pleading fo r that case. I'm jus t stating that some of the other provinces do make other provisions and facilities such as mo re assistants to the constitue ncies and members in the constituencies as well where there is some communication.

But the point that has been made I do believe and agree that there is considerable demand fro m the cons tituents now of their members and if I may just mention in my ow n case I'm sure that yo u will find at least 300 letters that I re plied to or sent to , that people either write to me or phone me and request certain things and this is a considerable amount, Mr. Speaker, for somebody that you haven't got facilities or a secretary. So there is gr eater demand than we had at one time. But the point that I do wish to make at this time and that' s the po int that has been bro ught ou t by the Leader of

4826 June 12, 1974 BILL 95 (MR. PATRICK cont' d) ..... the Official Opposition in respect to the difference in the indemnity and expense account between the Cabinet Ministers and the First Minister. I do agree that there should be an increase in that respect and there should be a difference because certainly the First Minister has a much more onerous job than just the Cabinet Minis ters themselves.

And in this respect I completely support the Leader of the Official Opposition and say there should be some consideration given in that respect and I hope that there can be some consideration given; because at the present time there is almost no consideration given for the "head" man or the "c oach" of the team and I certainly feel that there should be, because his responsi bilities are onerous and much more difficult and much more full-time and more time consuming. So I do agree and I hope something can be done in that respect. (A pplause) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W.

CRAIK (Riel ): Mr. Speaker, I just want to say a few words on this bill. I don't rise to oppose the bill as such. But I do think there is a matter of princi ple involved in the bill that is a fairly major one and it certainly has two sides to the story. That's the matter of indexing or the escalator clause that is contained in the bill with regards to what happens in the future to MLA indemnities. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I've thought about it a great deal and it's always concerned me that people who are on pensions always end up suffering because they're always at the mercy of somebody else's decision and we all know people that are in that particular category. --(Inter jection)--Mr.

Speaker, people generally who are on pensions and historically have been caught in the very difficult position that they have no bargaining power and they have no way in active life of bringing about any changes , and therefore they're caught in the position of being not able to keep up with the increase in the cost of living and are certainly people who should be con sidered for escalator clauses or an indexing system to make sure that they don't get caught out particularly, as we have now, with rampaging inflation. But the people who are in a bargaining position, Mr.

Speaker, and are in active life- and I would include MLAs in that group - I think are in quite a different position , and it concerns me somewhat to see the MLA salary actually tied in to some sort of an indexing system. I feel that the strongest point of it all is that, as mentioned by the Leader of theOpposition, the 57 mem bers of the Le gislature are in some way responsibl e for about 25 percent of the province's economy by the votes that take place in this House either on capital borrowing or on regular budget and to a certain extent, Mr.

Speaker, they have a very strong influence on what happens to the economy. Now I don't think in national terms the influence is overly great but I think that MLAs are always subject to the unrealistic accusation that they could have an influence on the well- being of the economy of the province and on the inflation rate. So theoretical as it is , Mr. Speaker , the MLAs can be open to the charge of having some influence on the rate of inflation and therefore the industrial index and therefore their own salaries. Realistically it's remote but nevertheless it's always open to the accusation. I think, Mr.

Speaker , as long as we are- as long as we're in the position , like other people who are to some extent in a bargaining position , to determine what our income should be from time to time, that we should not, as legislators, tie ourselves in to an escalator clause. I realize there's two sides to this argument; that just happens to be my side of it and I've tested it out the odd place and I believe it's a good debating point. I'm convinced that to not have it in is probably as a matter of princi ple to serve the best interests of the position of a member of the Legislature. So , Mr.

Speaker, apart from those comments- and I know that the Government is pro posing some changes to the clauses regarding air transportation to certain constituencies- with those two exceptions, Mr. Speaker, I support the bill but at the Committee stage I would like to again see the escalator clause conditions discussed at more length and perhaps a vote taken on it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr.

Speaker , I would like just to make a few comments on the proposal that is now before us, if for no other reason than I would hate to dis appoint the press who have given so much publicity to this measure and I'd like to insure that they get their mon ey's worth. But the bill before us was introduced by the First Minister as one that stemmed as a result of discussions between all members of the House. I think it should be made clear that when the House Leader of the Government approached me on this

June 12, 1974 4827 BILL 95 (MR . JORGEN SON cont' d) .... . matter I made it very clear that we would be prepared to enter discussions as to some con sensus as to what kind of a measure would be introduced but there would be no question that the bill introduced would be a government measure and would stand and fall - not that there is any likelihood of the thing falling - but that the Gove rnment would stand or fall on the basis of that measure. I think that understanding should be very clear on the part of all members.

No w, Sir, I was going to deal with the question of indexing but that has been dealt with by the Member for Riel.

It is of so me concern to me as well because I am not too sure that periodically when this measure- a measure such as this is bro ught before the House and it has been brought before the House on previous occa sions, and I think twice Premier Roblin intro duced amendments to The Legislative Ass embly Act increasing indemnities to members and, if I recall correctly, I think that the opposition members in tho se days voted against the measure on both occasions although they went ahead and col lected the indemnity.

I say, Sir, that to base the increments or the increases in indemnities on the same basis as one would a person work ing in industry or drawing a pension I think is a bit of an unfair com parison. In my view, this Legislature is- I made th is point during the discuss ion on Bill No. 7- the Legislature is different. Government operations are different from private industry or fro m any other occu pation.

Who indeed, Sir, would work from- as I do and I'm sure that all members are here at 8:00 or 8:30 in the mo rning- but fro m around 8:30 in the mo rning till 11 :00, 12 :00 o' clock at night and I have no objections to it , I enjoy the plac e and I think that' s what makes it different. It seems to me that from time to time, we as well as the people of this pro vince, should be reminded of how inflation is affecting our lives and ho w rapidly it is esca lating and ho w necessary it is to pay attention to the direction that we're heading and the ulti mate con sequences of the rapid rate of inflation.

There is no other way of do ing it- and I know that when we discuss members' salaries at least we get a lot of press on that -the public are aware then of the rate of increase of inflation if there is no other way that we can make them aware of it. A MEMB ER: One of tho se few occa sions where that happ ens, Warner. MR. JORGEN SON: Sir, it seems to me that a discussion of this kind, the publicity that is attendant upon members taking it upon th emselves to increase their ow n salaries, is not all that bad.

I don 't mind subj ecting-being subjected to the criticism and I must say that I don 't get that much criticism.

I think mo st people are aware that even members of the Legislature have to buy groceries and if this is going to be an all-time occu pation or a full-tim e oc cupation and I regret very much that it is, I don 't think that it need be or should be, I think it could and should be other wise- but this appears to be the direction that we are heading and unless the people themselves are pr epared to suppo rt those who are oppo sed- and I'm preaching fo r a call here- who are oppo sed to the present trends, then I suppo se the present trends will continue.

But it seems to me that having to review this measure from time to time or this bill from time to time insofar as it applies to indemnities, is not such an onerous task that we can't do it rather than having it indexed so that it becomes auto matic. There's so mething about making this thing auto matic that con cerns me and I ho pe that we can have mo re discuss ion and con sideration when we get into Co mmitt ee. MR. SPEAKER : Th e Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULL EY: Mr. Speaker , I will be very brief. Like the Premier I didn't enter into the discussions as to what the provisions of Bill 95 should be.

Rather deliberately, too , I may say, Mr. Speaker, because I have had some involvem ent over th e past. But I'd like to make one or two co mments. I believe the Honourable Member fo r Morris indicated that while we were in opposi tion , or the opposition as such re jected or at least voted against, in his word s, the propo sition of the then Premier, Premier Roblin. I think it would be more corre ct to say that some members in opposition voted against.

I don't think that there was any on any of the propos itions, the two --(Interjection) --Yes , the thr ee members and my colleague the Premier indicates three mem bers- I recall one- who indicated that any increase that he was to receive would go to charity. I presume charity gained as a result of that particular increase in indemnity or allowance. And it could conceivably be, Mr. Speaker, that some ho nourable members will use the taxation in come tax benefits by donating to charity in order to cut down their income tax assessm ent to both Ottawa and to Manitoba.

I know at least one who has that in mind at the present time but

4828 June 12 , 19 74 BILL 95 (MR. PAULLEY cont 'd) •.•.. that's beside the point. I just wanted to clarify fo r the benefit of the House the - what I understood to be the statement of the Honourab le Member fo r Mo rris. I do n't recall that I ever voted against the propo sal of the then Premier of Manitoba, the Honourable Duff Roblin. The other point that I want to refer to , Mr. Speaker, I appreciate very much what the honourable members opposite have said in respect of the allowance or salary or whatever you want to call it apart from the indemnity to my colleague, the Premier. I think that they are correct.

This is the only area of invol vement that I have attempted to use any influence that I may have and that is to try and convince my colleague on my right hand that he is entitled, because of his involve ment in the work that he does, is certainly entitled to receive more than a difference of $1, 000 between the Minister of Labour and the Leader of the Oppo sition , in his office. (Applause) No w I don 't kno w, Mr.

Speaker, I don 't kno w whether or not between now and the time when we consider this bill, which will of course be in Co mmittee of the Who le House, that in between now and that particular time, whether I can get my ho nourable friend, the First Minister, to remov e the threat of annihilation if I were to introduce an amendment to do justice to my friend.

No w the Leader of the Oppo sition might think it' s all right, the annihilation might be okay but in this particular instance he may even suggest that I sho uld not be annihilated and I'm not sure whether or not I'm go ing to be able to convince my friend , I'm not sure whether I'm going to be able to convince my friend, the First Minister, to remove that threat, but as a member of the treasury bench I think that I can propo se that reso lution which might be adopted by the House.

So I want to warn my ho nourable friend who is so deservant of a wider differ entiation in indemnity that I might even do it, threat or no threat, because he certainly deserves it. Now with tho se few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that members be prepared po ssibly fo r the calling of the Co mmittee of the Whole, say, tomorrow mo rning, to further con sider this bill. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. BILL NO. 91 MR. PAULLEY presented Bill No. 91 ,

an Act to amend The Civil Service Superannuation, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULL EY: Somebody said explain and somebody said question . Which would you like? Explain. Okay. This bill, Mr. Speaker, has three main provi sions.

They are: (1 ) a new provision to allow an employee or pensioner, who had service that had not been counted fo r pension purpos es, to have that service cou nted and this would apply by the employee and Government each making a payment to the Superannuation Fund and as hono urable members will be aware it's on an equal basis between the employee and the emplo yer, the Government.

Th e type of service an employee or pensioner may apply to have counted is continuous full time service that immediately pre ceded the date established in the records of the superannuation fund as the beginning of his pen sionable service.

The reason this type of service has not already been included in pensionable service is that over the years since the fund began on May 1s t, 19 39 , there have been various requirements under the Superannuation Act and the Civil Service Act which prevented certain types of employm ent, fo r instance a non-permanent employment, fro m being classified as pensionable employment. Toda y if an employee is in continuing full-time employment he may contribute to the superannuation fund regardless of whether he is deemed to be on the perma nent staff.

This suggestion , amendment to the Act , will allow an employee who was precluded from being in the Superannuation Act priorly to obtain that provision. For tho se pensioners who will qualify the res ulting pension increase will take effect from the date that the provi sion takes effect. For tho se employees who qualify it will take effect fro m their retirement. Some have already been retired and of course there will have to be make-up of the funds between the two. An employee or pens ioner may apply fo r all or part of his prior service and he will make a payment to the fund to take care of half of it.

The Gov ernment will take care of the other half by making payment to the fund. Employees who

June 12, 19 74 4829 BILL 91 (MR. PAULLEY con t'd ) ..... work for other employees in the fund, that is the Telephone System, the Hydro , also com e under this amendment and those employers will also be making payment to the fund for each employee and pensioner who app lies and makes a pension. And then, Mr. Speaker, if you recall about a year ago , I introduc ed a measure for port ability of pensions in the pu blic sector with the Gover nment of Canada and in other pro vinces. We found , however, that there was a deficiency in our bill th at was not acceptable to the federal autho rity in particular.

Last year's bill amending the superannuation provided for this type of porta bility. This bill cancels the requirement that an employee must have five years' service to have this pro vision apply to him or her. And that is where -the reason why we haven't at the present time been able to enter into a full agreement or in an agreement with the federal authority.

The result is, by this amendment, the Gov ernment of Manitoba may now enter into a reciprocal agreement with any employer in the Canadian public sector to not allow an employee, regardless of his length of service, to take his pensionable service with him to his new employer po sition, if he goes to or from the employ of the Government of Manitoba after July 1, 19 73. In other words, that was the effective date of the last year's Bill.

This amend ment also provides that where the transfer is between a Manitoba employer in the Superannua tion Fund and other Manitoba employer s, periods of service may be combined to help an employee qualify for a benefit fo r which there is a qualifying period of service and the pension from our Fund can be based on the best 7 years earning of the final 12 years of co mbined ser vice. Th at was a provision in the changed Act and then there is an amendment to the present provision that an employee who resigns may, if he has the required service, leave his contri butions in the fund and receive a pension later.

This amendment provides that when an em ployee who resigned elects to begin receiving his pension , his pension will be increased by an amount equal to any percentage increase in the Canadian Con sumer price index since his resig nation. Th at was a matter we were just discussing in respect of Bill 95. In addition to the above important provisio ns there are several ho usekeeping sections. One

section is to permit retroactive salary to be counted as pensionable salary in calculating a pension which, since July 1, 19 73, may be paid to a spo use, or eligible survivor who is entitled to a pension; to provide that the requirements of a seasonal employee may enter the super annuation fund when he completes 16 00 hours or 200 days of employment in each of two suc cessive calendar years - that shall apply to a seasonal employee who com pletes that period of employ ment on or after December 31 , 1972 .

Then there are others tidying up provi sions to provide that a secretary-treasurer of a watershed district, the employees of a housing authority established, may come under the Superannuation Act and th at that district or ho using authority will be included in the employers that have to make a contribution to the Fund and, of course, similarly the employees could do likewise. And there's another

section to provide that interest shall be credited to the deferred pension account of a re-employed pensioner who has applied to have payments of his pension deferred until his employment ends and then there's one or two tidying up erro rs of a typog raphical nature. So I reco mmend the Bill to the Com mittee. We'll have the general manager of the Superannuation Fund there if there's any detailed questions members would like to ask. MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: I mo ve, seconded by the Member from Brandon West that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried.

BILL NO. 68 MR . SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Wo uld you call Bill No. 68, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member fo r Em erson. MR. STEVE DEREWIANCHUK (Em erso

n) pr esented Bill No. 68,

an Act to amend Th e Law Society Act No. 2 for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. PAULLEY: .•... explain? MOTION declared carried. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, a copy of a letter that was addressed, I believe, Sir, to you from the Lieutenant-Governor, which states that "I have been inform ed of a propo sed

4830 June 12, 1974 BILL 68 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd ) ..... amendment , a copy of which is attached hereto to Bill 68 ,

an Act to amend the Law Society Act (2) which would author ize the Minister of Finance to pay from the Consoli dated Fund from moneys received by way of interest on trust acco unts of lawyers , sums for educational programs of the Law Society and for costs incurred by the Law Soci ety of Manitoba. I recomme nd the pro pose d amendment to the House. " MR . SPEAKER: Th ank you. Bill No. 68 has been adopted. Th e Honourab le House Leader. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker would you call Bill No. 56. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of privilege MR . SPEAKER: Th e Hono urable Member fo r Rie l. MR . CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I rise on a matter of house privilege to ask the House Leader if, why Bill No. 63 would not be called for at least second reading? I don't believe it falls into the categories of the two bills preceding that which have already received debate in the House. I felt that having called 68 that 63 would at least be called. MR . SPEAKER: Th e Honour able House Leader. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't know if it is a point of privilege. It is the prero g ative of the Gover nment to call bills in any order that they wish and it was my wish to call Bill No. 68. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 56.

The Hono urable Member for Wellington. MR . PIDLIP M. PET URSSON (Wellington) presented Bill No. 56

an Act to Incorporate United Health Services for second reading. MOTION presented and carried. MR . SPEAKER: Th e Honou rable House Leader. MR . PAULLEY: Bill No. 24 , Mr. Speaker, MR . SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Member for Point Douglas. REV. OONALD MALINO WSKI (Po int Douglas) presented Bill No. 24 , The Mount Carmel Clinic Act for second reading. MOTION presented and carried. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourab le House Leader. MR . PAULLEY: Bill No. 94. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 94. The Honourab le Member for Minnedosa. MR . BLAKE presented Bill No. 94,

an Act to Am end

an Act Respecting the Agricultural and Co mmunity District of Newdale for second reading. MOTION presented and carried. MR . PAULLEY: Bill No. 92 , Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourab le Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education) (Burrows) presented Bill No. 92

an Act to amend the Teachers' Pension Act for second reading. MOTION presented. BILL NO. 92 MR . SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Minister. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, this Bill further develops and expands the principle of reciproc ity in pensions which was first introduc ed in 1971 and expanded in 1973. The original amendments to the Teachers' Pension Act made it possible for Manitoba to enter into agree ments with Teachers' Pension authorities in other provinc es in Canada. Any such agreements were to be subj ect to the approval of Cabinet.

Some weeks ago , as a result of negotiations, Cabinet approved agreements between Manitoba and Quebec, Ontario , Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Co lumbia for reciprocal pension rights for teachers. This is a step which has long been advocated by the teachers, the Gov ernment agreed and the result speaks for itself. The Pensions' Task Force concluded, how ever, that the principle of reciproc ity shoul d not be restricted to teachers only. The clear-cut distinctions between professions are beco ming increasingly blurred.

The roles of speech and hearing therapists, clinicians, school social workers, to name a few, are becoming increasingly import ant in the total school program. Also the benefits of mob ility are being recognized as being of great value to the private and public sector alike. There is need for greater mob ility between the two. Until now people, especially as they build up years of service, have tended to be reluctant to move. They have

June 12 , 1974 4831 BILL 92 (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd ) ..... felt that they were locked in by the provisions of their particular pension plans , even though many plans now have a vesting clause to prot ect equity, the potential decrease in final benefits has acted as a deterrent. Then, too, a benefit received from vesting is based on a salary which may have been adequate in terms of the cost of living at the time but is totally inadequate in terms of the cost of living at the time of retirement. It is to corre ct the above situation that these amendments have been drafted.

Briefly, they make it possible for teachers to move within a much wider range of po sitions, with no loss of benefits. This is to be poss ible as the result of authoriz ing the Teachers' Retirement Fund Board to enter into agreements with one or other of a group known as Recipro cating Manitoba Employers to provide continuing benefits upon terms and con ditions which are mutually agree able and approved by Cabinet.

The agreements will spell ou t the terms on which a person with service as a teacher may obtain credit for all or part of that service as a period of membership in or service credit under the plan or fund of the reciprocating emplo yer or on which a perso n may obtain similar credit in the Teachers' Pensio n Plan. The importance of this is that a pe rson who moves from one posi tion to another receives the benefit of having all his service in one or more pension plans count toward establishing the final benefit which he will receive.

Since this inevitably means an increased benefit, it works to the advantage of the person involved. Equally important is the provision that a cost of living factor shall be applied to the calculation of a pension benefit received under this provi sion. This means that the benefit based on contributio ns made some years earlier will be increased by a percentage based on changes in the Consu mer Price Index between the time the person last had served as a teacher and the time of retirement. These are the major provisions of the bill.

There are also some amendments which are designed to correct discrepancies which crept into last year's definition of the basis for cost of living increases and to remove a

section of the Act which is redundant. Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that if there is any further mo re detailed explanation that honourable members would wish to have that that could be provided in Committee with the staff there to offer any technical explana tion that members may require. MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER : The Hono urable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister would accept a question. I wonder, in view of the time element involved , would he make available his speaking notes to members on this si de? MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Education. MR.

HANUSCHAK: Yes, if they can be reproduced in time I'd be happy to oblige. MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Brandon West. MR . McGIL L: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourab le Member for Morri s, that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. RESOLUTION - PENSION PLAN STANDARDS MR . DEP UTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Acting House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker , I beg to move, seconded by the Hono urable Minister of Education , the follow ing resolution; RESOLVED THAT the Standing Co mmittee of the House on Statutory Orders and Regulations undertake a study of and report to the House with reco mmendations respecting standards with which employee group , or em ployer sponsor ed, pension and superannuation plans should com ply and methods by which such standards may be achieved or by which plans can be brou ght to comply with such standards. MOTION presented. MR . DEP UTY SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to explain: honour able members will recall mention was made in the Throne Speech that a measure would be introduced or a white paper introduc ed or what have you, dealing with the possibility of establishing standards for pension plans within the Province of Manitoba and also the pos sibility of reco mmendations for transferability or portability of pension plans. In attempting to arrive at legislation of a precise nature it was deemed that rather than

483 2 June 12, 1974 RESOLUTION - PENSION PLAN STANDARDS (MR.

PAULLEY co nt'd) ..... do that in the busy period of a session, that the subject matter would be referred to the Standing Com mittee on Statutory Rules and Regulations and it would be my intention to have the preliminary draft bill or a white paper, call it what you will, available for the consideration of the Co mmittee and also that by this metho dology it would give ample not ice- at least in my opinion - ample notice to those concerned, employer s, emplo yees, tho se actuaries in the pension field, an opportunity to make adequate presentation to the Co mmittee before a final bill is drafted.

And that's the purpo se, Mr. Speaker, of the resolution and I hop e that honour able members would not rej ect the approach I am trying to make. I realize that there are some who would have liked to have had a precise bill before us at this session but as I say, Mr. Speaker, on reflection and making an assessment we felt, rightly or wrongly, that this was the better way of handling the matter. MR . DEPUTY SPEA KE R: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPIV AK: Mr.

Speaker, I just have a few momen ts - would spend a few moments on this resolution and indicate the general support for . what the Minister of Labour has suggested. Mr. Speaker, I must indicate that it is the Co mmittee called the Standing Com mittee of the House on Statutory Orders and Regulations and, Mr.

Speaker, one of its terms of reference and one of the matt ers that should be discussed in addition to this, is the pro blem of regulations in which there is a presentation of Legislative Co unsel dealing with the regulatory or the regu lations of the past few years and indicating to the Legislature and to the Com mittee at least th ose regulations that may not be consi stent with the Acts that have been passed. I must indicate, Mr.

Speaker, th at in the rush of the last, in the rush of the last two legislative sessions and in the workload that has been undertaken by the Legislative Counsel and in the undertakings of the members in this House, I think that we have neglected the function that must be performed and one which is importa nt in the long run and particularly with the general increase in Government's activity and increase in government activity through regulation.

I would ask the Minister of Labour to see to it that this is included so that there is a full report brou ght up by the Legislative Counsel dealing with all the regulations and we are in a position to follow through in this committee as it was planned in addition to the other propo sals that he' s bro ught forward. MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Member fo r Assi niboia. MR . PAT RICK: Mr. Speaker, I just want to be very brief and to say to the Minister I agree with his course of action.

I'm sure he recollects I had a resolution on the Order Paper to the effect of porta bility of pensions and while it was mentio ned in the Throne Speech, we were unable to debate it but his course of action is agreeable. I believe the need fo r that type of legis lation is necessary.

It's past due and I think it's the gov ernment responsibility in the chancing of times with much higher life expectancy at the present time which requires some form of pensions for many people in our soc iety and I believe that the course of action that he's taking is a good one and what the end result will be is perhaps the proper legislation, good legislation, so I agree with his proposition. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEP UTY SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Acting House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would now indicate that the House will adjourn and the Committee on Law Am endments will meet in about 10 minutes. So therefore, Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourab le the Att orn ey-General that the House do now adjourn and stands adjourned until 10 :00 o'cl ock tomorrow morning. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honoura ble . . . MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, just before you leave the Chair may I remind honour able members I ju st indicated that the Committee on Law Am endments will convene in about 10 minutes and that there will also be the Com mittee on Law Amendments tonight at 8:00 o'c lock to hear representations on bills that have now been given second reading and I suggest possible priority to bills for which there haven't been representations made. MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER: The House is now adjourned and will stand adjourned until 10: 00 a. m. tomorrow morning. (Thur sday)

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-172
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 172.pdf
Language	en
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