PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 18 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, APRIL 15, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

April 15th. 1971 The House resumed at 3:00 P.H. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order! Tape 266 PK - 1 MR. J.C. CROSBIE: ~r. Speaker, when we adjourned for lunch, so members would not have empty stomachs opposite, and could listen better or more easily. I was mentioning the fact that the Auditor General's Report; for the Year Ending March 31, 1970,showed that the Department of Debt Repayment, that is the Department of Government that pays interest on our debt and pays into sinking funds to meet the borrowing in the Year that ended March 31, 1970,was the fourth largest department.

The largest spender was Education, next was Health, the third department, the Department of Welfare and the fourth was the department that pays interest charges and sinking fund payments. And that total in the Year Ending March 31, 1970 was $39 million.to the nearest million. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when we look at the Estimates that were passed by this House for the Year that ended March 31, 1971, that is fifteen daya ago, the Estimates that we passed last year, we discover that what should be the Department of Debt Repayment, that payments on interest and sinking funds last year brought that department up to number three. Last year in our estimates the gross expenditure of Current Account voted · for llducation $82 million. I am giving it to 'the r..oca.:2st: million. He voted for the Department of Health $63 million. This is on Current Account Gross.

Law and behold, Debt Repayment, that is, payment of interest on our debt and payme~t to sinking funds ,total $50 million,approximately. And that came ahead of the Department of Welfare, the Department of Welfare or Social Services and Rehabilitation last year was $45 million. So, as a result of the pass borrowing of the Government, the Government are now payin~,in the year that just ended paid at least $50 million to interest on the debt and sinking fund payments.to help meetin~ borrowings when they came due, $50 million. Other departments last year, Mr. Speaker,: Welfare is $45 million; 12:,1

April 15th. 1971 Tape 266 PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: Interest on the Debt and Debt Repayments came ahead of Highways, both Current and Capital in Highways, which is $49 million. It came ahead of Economic Development, it came ahead of Municipal Affairs and Housing, it came ahead of Mines, A~riculture and Resources, it came ahead of Legislative, Provincial Affairs, Finance, Fisheries, Supply and Services, Labrador Affairs, Community and Social Development, all those departments were picayune compared .to the Department of Debt Repayment and sinking fund payment. The Government should probably start a department, Mr.

Speaker, to be known as the "Department of Sinking Fmd and Interest." It might be difficulty to find a minister to take over that job, because he would have a pretty sinking feeling, as he •• that department increasing in size each year. With the borrowing - AN BON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, he is sinking, but he has not sunk. What was the placard we saw here two years ago, the fishermen from Placentia Bay were up picketing in front of Confederation Building and one of the placards where "Joey got her sunk." How true.

"Joey's got her sank." It is the sinking feeling one gets, when you consider the debt position of this Province. Mr. Speaker, $50 million in the year that just ended. We lcnow that in the year we are now in, we a~ fifteen days into the new Financial Year 1 we know that payments of interest this year will be up at least $12 million to $13 million, because of what the Government borrowed last year, $12 million or $13 million. So this year we can estimate that payments on interest.and sinkin~ funds are goinl to be $65 million. And as this record of reckless borrowin~ continues, Mr.

Speaker, debt repayment is going to mount and mount and mount, until,. within the next two or three or four years, at some point, it is going to be the biggest spending department. That is money, Mr. Sp~aker, that cannot be used by the Government on welfare payments, <hat cannot be used on grants to municipalities. It cannot be used for paying roads. It cannot 122:5

April 15th. 1971 Tape 266 Pk - 3 Mlt. CROSBIE: be used for paying salaries, because it has got to go to ' pay interest on our debt and sinking fund payment. It ia now the third largest department, and in addition to that, in addition to these sinking fund payments, we know, Mr. Speaker, that in the next two years, this year and next year, the Government have a100 million in debt coming due,that has no sinking fund provided for it, that they have to borrow and repay in the next two years. '!hat is certainly a frighte~in~ position. '!hat is the position, Mr.

Speaker, the state that the Government now have this Province in. '!he Province that is lest able to afford this debt burden. As I said the other day, Personal Disposable Income in this Province, January 1st. 19701 was $1400 per person, while in Nova Scotia it was $2000 per person, while in Canada as a whole it was $2400. So the people who are lest able to bear this great debt burden, or least able to pay these high taxes, are the ones who are saddled_with it here in Newfoundland. And,as I pointed out the other day, Mr.

Speaker, we are now in the position where the Newfoundland Government, it is costing the Newfoundland Government in excess of one and a-half percent more to borrow money than it does Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia has an issue of $20 million. They pay seven point three percent interest, Newfoundland had a bond is~ue at about the same time, it pays eight and nine-tenths percent of the cost. And there have been borrowings by the Newfoundland Government in .the.past year where they paid over nine percent. Why is it that it costs us one and a-half percent more than Nova Scotia.to borrow?

The answer is that the investors consider this Province to be a far greater risl, because of the borrowin~ policy of the Government in the last five years. '!he Government that are borrowing at the rate of $133 million a year, t'hat are having deficits at the rate of $100 million a year. That is the answer. Steinbu~g Supermarket borrows at eight and a-half percent interest, almost half & percent interest less than the Newfol.i!ltlland Government. That is where it is broadest. '!here is another point that needs to be 11&de, Mr. Speaker, in this connection. And that is, the increasing cost 1,~~ ~~~v

April 15th. 1971 Tape 266 PK - 4 MR. CROSBIE: that we are being involved in with respect to guarantees of loans given by the Government. On page 39, of the Auditor General's Report for last year it lists ,payments that had to be made by the Government, because the people whose loans are guaranteed defaulted. and they amounted to $1,270,000; Paragon Hotel Limited, Hotel Holdings,Limited, Skyways Motel Gander. Limited, B.B.

Spencer, Limited, the hotel in Windsor, Halfway Rouse?Limited, the hotel in Carbonear, Hotel Buildings,Limited, that is the Crown Corporation that owns all the Holiday Inns, they defaulted $1,061,000. The Government had to pay up, And the Public Accounts for Newfoundland,for the year that just ended 1page 5, again there is listed the payments under guarantees that had to be made by the Government. And that money now has to be voted in the estimates, Mr. Speaker. Now in the estimates each year, we are voting $1.S million. U.75 million that the Government have to pay out on these guarantees.

The Public Accounts for 1969-70.page 63, it is shown here, paid out by the Government for that year, a year ago, $1,728,000. had to be paid by the Government because they had guaranteed loans and the borrowers had defaulted. Brigus Knitting Mills $151,000. Corner Brook Regional High School Board $63,000. The Town of Clarenville $83,000. B.B. Spencer,Limited $64,000. Skyways Motel Gander,Limited $13,000, Halfway House $34,000. St. Anthony Athletic Club $226,000. Bonavista Recreational Association $310,000. Hotel Holdinis $38,000, Paragon Hotel $9,000. Frontier Fishing $21,000.

Dawe's Nail and Hardware, Limited $90,000. Hotel Buildings,Limited $130,000. So ever increasing amounts, ~r. S?eaker, have to be included tmder Consolidated - MR. MURPHY: Assets and liabilities. MR. CROSBIE: Not only in assets and liabilities. but under Consolidated Fund Services each year, the Government paying on guarantees have gone sour. And this year presumably will be no different. 12~7

April 15th. 1971 Tape 266 Pk - 5 MR. CROSBIE: Just look at 'the Newfotmdland Liquor Commission, Mr. Speaker, see what has happened with it. The increases in the prices of liquor and beer over the last five years. Increase after increase. Look at the mall-administration, the business of Atlantic Brewing $407,000 awed by Atlantic Brewing to the Newfoundland Liquor Commission. Who took no action to collect it, because the hon. the Premier had given a letter to Atlantic Brewing assuring them that they did not have to pay any tax or commission, that they were legally obliged to pay.

Now we are hoping to ~et it back from Bison Brewery in five or ten year bonds. MR. EARLE: Without interest. MR. CROSBIE: There is a question tabled about the Newfoundland Liquor Commission this year. I think, the licence fees for a brewer's agent, for taverns, for clubs and so on were doubled, or are very near doubled, to bring in more revenue. The Newfoundland Liquor Commission is paying in rentals $377,000 1 for the year ending March 31, 1970. It is shown on page 321 of the Public Accounts. It was diaaussed in the House here last year, Mr.

Speaker, the tremendous sums of money paid out by the Government on leases and by the Newfoundland Liquor Commission on leases, where the people of this Province are obliged to pay for little small liquor stores, 1600 square • feet, in Grand Bank, Placentia. St. Lawrence, the Newfoundland Liquor Commission is paying rentals of $12,000 a year, $7.30 a square loot, $12,000 a year,for t~>enty years,have entered into twenty year leases on those small buildings.

So that the owner of the building,over the twenty year period,is going to get $140,000 in rent for a building that costs perhaps $35,000 or $40,000, In other words,after the payment of five years rent is made or four years rent, $12,000.a yeer 7 the owner has his money back and for the next iiteen years will collect $12,000 a year from the people of Newfoundland. Two hundred and forty thousand dollars,over a twenty year period,for buildi~gs that have 1660 square feet of space,

April 15th. 1971 Tape 266 PK - 6 MR. CROSBIE: But,worse than that, Mr. Speaker, is this, that the people of Newfoundland do not knO!J who those rents are being paid to. These three particular leases and another.and quite a few others, but these three particular leases, the lease is from the Royal Trust Company to the Government of Newfoundland and to the Newfoundland Liquor Commission, and when the Government are asked a question, who owns those buildings? We all 'know the Royal Trust Comp~y does not own them.

We know they are not owned by the 2oyal Trust, they are acting as trustees for other individuals or companies. When the question was asked; who owns these buildings? Who ls making this windfall? Who is making this terrific rental? Who is being paid this? When that question was asked the Government said it does not know, ask the Royal Trust Company. The }-1.inister of Finance tabled an answer"!llo a question of mine here today, about those leases. I have not had a chance to look at the leases, the Minister tabled the leases.

But, the part of the question that asked who is the owner of the buildings, the answer was; "ask the Royal Trust Company.• Now why should a member of this House have to ask the Royal Trust Company who owns those leases? The Royal Trust Company is going to say that is a confidental matter between us and our client. That is not the point. They are not going to give that information. It is the Government that should know, and does know, and must know; who owns these buildings, because the real owner would have had negotiated with the Government about those leases, not the Royal Trust Company.

So, again, in this catalogue of miS1Danagement, 8.lld misadtninistration, Mr. Speaker, over the last five years, that is another item that has to be looked .at. These tremendous rentals paid out,to whom we do not know, under twenty year leases - the leases are for twenty years. Instead of the Government or the Liquor Commission payint $40,000 themselves,to put a building in St. Lawren~e, to put one up in Placentia, or to put up one

April 13th. 1971 tape 266 PK - 7 MR. CROSBIE: in Grand Bank, instead ~f them doing that~ $120,000 for all three, instead of that, the Liquor CDIIIDlission is paying out each year $36,000 in rent and will pay over the twenty years $720,000, for something that to put up all three ¢bats $120,000. How can that be right, Mr. Speaker, in a ~rovince that has such limited resources, the limited financial ability that this Province does, where e~ry cent and every dollar should count, if the Province is to expand and prosper as it should? It is inexcusable. Giving those leases in the first place is inexcusable.

But, then refusing to say who the actual owners of the leases are, ltbo the actual ownue of the buildings are, is even more inexcusable. Obviously, it is some friends of the Government, or some friends of someone in the ' Government, and the Govemment does not want the public to know who is making the bonnaza. MR MURPHY Look, I do not want to interrupt the Speaker. MR CROSBIE:Mr. Speaker, I take my orders right from th~ Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, look at the Elizabethan Towers on Elizabeth AvenueJ called Elizabeth Towers, Limited, but it shou.11 be called the "Elizabethan Towers," because seldom in the history of the Western World, since the Elizabethan age,Jas there been such op-pulaice in an apartment building to such little effect. We know that there are very swanky, lush penthouse apartments ,,on the top floor,that only certain public servants can afford. We know that the public was told that they were goin~ to cost $2,500,000.

We all remember "ferry, the tiger Carter," in those days pointing out that it was going to coat double that?and bein~ attacked 8Ild ma!i~ed by the Government for doinp. so . .::-.-·

April 15th., 1971 Tape no 267 Pagel Hr. Crosbie. Remember, "Terry, the Tiger Carter" in those days pointing out that it was going to cost double that and being attacked in the line by the Govrmment for doing so. Terrible Terry! Terrible Terry was terrifical.:..y right, when he said that. What is the actual cost, Mr Speaker? All we have to do is look at the public accounts for last year, under Elizabethan Towers. We will see whether "Terry the Tiger" was right. Elizabethan tigers -not Elizabethan tigers - Elizabethan Towers, page 200.

On page 201, we see that the Elizabethan Towers has two bank loans of $4 million 7 suaranteed by the Government,of Newfoundland and owes the St. John's Housing Corporation $1,224,000. So that the investment in the Elizabethan Towers is $5,124,000. MR.. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, is there anyway to get the Opposition to pay a little attention, to show a little interest in this speech. Is there anyway to get them to wake up and pay some attention? MR. CROSBIE: On this aide of the House., we have heard of the "red rag" being waved in front of the bull. It is the first time we have s.aen th.:: bull with the red rag on.

On page 200 ••• MK. SMALLWOOD: I got them awake for awhile. They will be asleep again in five minutes from now. Drone on. Drone on. MR. CROSBIE: Ttie hon. the Premier finds this boring. MR.. SMALLWOOD: Yes. No! No! I am so excited by it. MR.. CROSBIE: Assets. Elizabethan Towers •• MR. SMALLWOOD: Cannot wait for •• MR. CROSBIE: Furniture and equipment - building furniture and equipment, $5,209,000. That is what i~ cost, not $2.5~llion 1 not even $3.5 million. MR. SMALLWOOD: Not $1.5 million, not $500,000, not $750,000. 12~1

April 15th •• 1971 Tape no. 267 Page 2 MB.. CROSBIE: Exactly. I am glad to have this help Mil. SMALLWOOD: How exciting? How exciting! MR. CROSBIE: $5.25 million for this Elizabethan extravaganza on Elizabeth Avenue. In a Province which has such housing problems as this Province has. really, it is indefensible. It is indefensible: It vas $5 million guaranteed by the Province of Newfoundland •• MR. SMALLWOOD: The great democrat cannot stand it. MR. CROSBIE: Part of our $1 billion debt down on the Elizabeth Towers.

It is only half full and now the Government are tearing out another floor and putting in commercial space so it can rent some more space to the Government itself. The deficit for one-half year,according to the public accounts (it is a wonder the Government allow these to be printed) the deficit for the first half year. Elizabeth Towers,Limited, for the six months ended December 31, 1969 lost for the period for six IIIOlltha, $141,000. That was the first six months. The St • .John's Housing c.Tporation has $1.25 million tied up in it.that should be used to hel? develop subdivisions around St.

John's; that should be used to help set a lover price for serviced land in St. John's. The St. John's Housing Corporation should not be gouging the public for all the m~rket will bear. when it sells serviced land. It should be setting the price of land lower and keep the price of land low. Instaad of ta,i.u: it has $1.25 million tied up in Elizabethan extravaganza on Elizabeth Avenue. Is that the way to spend the public money. Mr. Speaker, when we have the housing conditions we c~ve in St. John's; Corner Brook, Gander.

Grand Falls, Grand Bank and elsewhere around the Province: That is $5 million that should have been spent for subsidized rental housing 1 or $5 million that should have been speri-.:.: for shell housing and other endeavours to overcome our tremendous housing problems. However, mentioning that just bores the Government. So, I will not pursue it at any great length. There are many other examples. We have 12,:2

April 15th,, 1971 Tape no, 267 Page 3 Mr. Crosbie Prince Philip P.hce,where the Government are whacking out h'l:ndreds of thousands of dollars a year in rental. We have the Elizabethan Towers - the Elizabethan Towers by the way, in January, 1970 was still saying that it would not cost the public anything, that there was no deficit. Now we know what it has cost, and what the deficits are. Prince Philip Place, the Government are paying $294,000 a year in rentals to Prince . Philip Place, $294,000 a year. Board of Liquor Control, $32,000, a twenty year lease, Power Commission, $140,000 and a five year lease.

Workmen's Compensation Board, $79,000, a twenty year lease~ Board of Commission of Public Utilities, $42,000, twenty years. The total, $294,000 a year, That is going into Prince Philip Place, In addition to that those agenices have to spend their own 1110ney in interior partitiom They had to spend extra to get parking facilities, They had to spend extra in moving and the rest of it. What a sad situation. Expo buildings: It can almost make me .cry, you know, really. I think I do need a haniikerchief. I got a handkerchief. I have a handkerchief. All right, the hon. the Premier is very kind. This really is sad, Mr.

Speakilr. Now where was I? Yes, we are off the Elizabethan, We are o~ Expo. One other point on buildings. MR. HICKMAN: That is the Expo 1967. MR·. NOLAN: Would the hon. member permit a question? _MR, NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I was wondering if· the hon. member opposite, perhaps, could enlighten us as to how many of the matters he refers to and which loosened the tears, were so evident, while he was a mamber of the Government? MR, CROSBIE: Quite a few of them, Mr. Speaker. That is why I am no longer a member of the Government. Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! MR. HICKMAN: Touche" MR.

CROSBIE: That 18 the exact reason why I am no longer a member of the Government.

April 15th., 1971 Tape no •• 267 Page 4 Mr. Crosbie. Mr. Speaker, Expo buildings. They were going to cost this Province $750,000. That is what we were assured by the Premier. These two summer­ time shells of buildings from Montreal, the Czechoslovak and Yugoslav pavilions, $750,000. Then the House was told that the firm of Lundrigans were going to erect them and do all that and at the end of the whole business would present a bill. Last year $100 was voted by the Bouse for Expo buildings. The Opposition questioned it.

The Opposition said that we will spend millions, if these are false estimates, if these are not true estimates. The Government said not a word of truth in it. We do not have to pay a cent on Expo buildings this year. That is what the Government said in this House last year. What do we find when the Lieutenant Governor's Warrants are tabled? Just about $2 million spent on Expo buildings during those twelve months, not $100 but $2 million. What was spent by the Government before that? There was another $2 million. So to _date, Mr. Speaker, they have cost $4 million.

The hon. member for Burin, I believe said that so far 1 i.n Grand Bank, there is only. a few pieces of steel on the site. They are going to end up costing •• MR. SMALLWOOD: Somewhere between eight and ·ren pieces. MR. CROSBIE: Eight or ten pieces. HR. SMALLWOOD: Eight or ten pieces.of steel. MR. CROSBIE: They are going to end up costing this Province, these magnificent E,roo Buildin~•. MR. SMALLWOOD:About $500,000 each. MR. CROSBIE: They are going to end up costing this Province about $6 to $7 million. Mll. SMALLWOOD: In other words about $1 million a piece. _MR.

CROSBIE: There are two buildings •. -And that would make them $3.5 million each. They are being erected into three buildiuga.

April 15th. 1971 Tape no. 276 Page 5 MR. SMALLWOOD: Rilrht· pieces at $3.5 million, is how much? _MR. CIOSBIE: There ia uo money spent down in Burin. MR. SMALLWOOD: Less than $500,000 per piece of steel. Seven feet long would they be? MR. CROSBIE: The hon. gentleman thought that there was no money spent on the buildings down in Burin, but according to the public accounts, for last year, under the Department of Public Works, we will see differently. The hon. member is going to get a surprise. (Where is that hidden. It is here somewhere, Economic Development, Bell Island Corporation. It is here aoaewhe·re.

They are trying to hide Public Works on ·me, But I know it is here) .Be will find , that there were two hundred -an,f some ocld thousaiic dollars supposed to be spent at Grand Bank on thoae buildings last year. Public 'Works page 101. It was not last year, the year before last. Here it is here, page 102 of the public accounts for a year ago. It shows the following expenditure on Ezpo buildings: $1,501,000 - $1,501,000. Somewhere there is a brealil.down bowing what was spent in Burin. 'Ihat is, if I can find it. Here it is here. Expo building, Grand Bank, $260,000. The total to date $3441 000.

So of that amount $344,000 was for the Expo building in Grand Bank; $393,000 for the Expo building in Ganier, $895,000 for the Expo building at Grand Falls and $95,000 for Expo building works of art. There is a real work of art to get those Expo buildings. That was the breakdown to a year ago. Now the House has juet been given a Li.eutenant Governor's Warrant for another$ 2milliou. So that it is $3.5 million to date. How much is supposed to be spent at Grand Bank, I do not know. A year ago it was supposed to be that amount. There are a whole lot of other things I could say, Mr. Speaker.

But there are other members of the House who want to speak. I doubt that there will be anybody speak from the other side. I could outdo the Premier's record, but I feel it is too much for him to bear in one year. HR. SMALLWOOD: Do not stop. Do not stop. Do not give up. That is right. MR. CROSBIE: If ve had an election, he would have his record for long windedness destroyed in the House. 12 e ,._. •::..>

April 15th., 1971 Tape no. 267 Page 6 MR. SMALLWOD: That is if St. John's West re-elects the hon. gentleman. MR. CROSBIE: Eight hours or ten hours,the P-remier went one time, or was it twelve? MR. SMALLWOOD: I went for five days. MR. CROSBIE: Those were in the wonderful days. MR. SMALLWOOD: Every word was precious and every word was commonsense. KB.. CROSBIE: Those were in the wonderful days, when the Premier thought he had the Province by the ears. MB.. NOUN: Tell us why you were over here. MR. CROSBIE: No, I never wrote a speech for the Premier.

You know, the Premier has never had anybody to write a speech for him. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is right. Because I do not need them. MR.. CROSBIE: It might be that in recent months, however. Perhaps this is an indication. The Cabinet Ministers are now writing speeches for the Premier. That is quite an admission. It was not done in my day. MR. SMALLWOOD: l never need them. MR.. CROSBIE: It was not done in my day. They useJ to spring fully feathered from the hon. the Premier without anybody doing it for him, the day I was in the Cabinet. MR.

SMALLWOOD: The difference between the hon. gentleman and me is that I did my practicing in the M.C.L. I. That is where I practiced. MR. CROSBIE: The hon. the Premier used to be the barrelman. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Could we proceed with the order of business. _MR. CROSBIE: I am doing my best, Mr. Speaker, to proceed. We all appreciate the fact that the hon. the Premier was a barrelman at one day. Now he is the "Conversation with the Premier" man. The tw9 pro~rammes are exactlv the same, both fictional. The great practice he had in the barrelman days telling stories ia now being repeated on VOCM every morning.

There is a story on this morning, every morning. MR. SMALLWOOD: Wit is utterely devastating. MR. CROSBIE: I know the Premier loves •• MR. SMALLWOOD: Devastating wit. 1 II') .•_,., :. I~ il

April 15 th., 197 i Tape no. 267 MR.CROSBIE: These compliments are overcoming me. MR. SMALLWOOD: Oh! Page 'J Mi. CROSBIE: But, Mr. Speaker, I could go on. I have a lot of material here on health. I have not touched on health. I have not touched on the $100 million worth of hospitals that the Government bu promised to build this year. I have not mentioned a word on it. They promised to build at Carbonear, in that area, after the plebiscite. The Minister of Health suffered from plebiscitis. The Premier said that they vere going to have a plebiscite there in the Carbonear area. He now answers, no.

There is the hospital at Carbonear, the hospital at Twillingate. There is a aassive University hospital at Memorial. There is an extension of 284 beds on the West Coast Hospital. There is an extension to the Mental Hospital. There are medical school buildints over on the campus here, all totaling some $60 million, $80 million or $100 million, which the Government are going to build this year, according to the great . . ··-- ---. 12 ·:7

April 15, 1971, Tape 268, Page 1 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: The great disarmament conference. The disarmament conference was the conference held in January to disarm the people of Newfoundland. That is the one they had televised in the Arts and Culture Centre. Disarm the public so they would keep this Government in power. Pretending to the public that the Government has unlimited •billions of dollars to spend in every nook and cranny of the island this year. Well Mr.

Speaker, while I know the hon. the Premier has not being paying much attention, or pretends he is not paying much attention, and while I know that the hon. the Premier is not going to pay any attention, the facts that have been presented so far in this debate to this House, show inalterably why, and how necessary it is to have a change of Government in this Province. Health; I have not touched on health at all. I have not touched on Community and Social Development. There are dozens of subjects not touched on, They will be touched on by other speakers. The pity of it is Mr.

Speaker, all right, the hon. the Premier wants some more. Will I continue? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes. MR. SMALLOOOD (J.R.): Do uot deprive us of all this wisdom. MR. MURPHY: Carey on. MR. CROSBIE: I will give some figures on these hospitals. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: There is St. Clare's Mercy Hospital now being •••.•• MR. S~.ALLWOOD: Tell us about the meetin~ at Spaniard's Bay. MR. CROSBIE: Concluded, $14 million. Begional hospital at Carbonear will cost at least $5.5 million. The hospital at Twillingate $3.5 million at least.

The new university hospital if there is a 400 bed general hospital built for the medical school, in connection ··with the medical school, I will state now Mr. Speaker that that will cost at least twenty to twenty-four million dollars. If it is to be a university teaching hospital of 400 beds. There is the extension to the Western,Memorial Hospital at Corner Brook, that will cost in the nature of around $8 million. The extension to the mental hospital here at St. John's will cost two to three million dollars. Twillingate, Carbonear, extensions and renovations to other hospitals.

There are the medical school buildings themselves at memorial, apart from the 12~3

April 15, 1971, Tape 268, Page 2 - apb university hospital. That programme ,Mr. Speaker., will total $82 million in construction. The Government bas not explained how it is going to finance that, how it is going to arrange that. It bas promised that it is going to do it all. How is it going to finance it? Another $100 million to be borrowed. Bow are they going to go about that? The Government has not explained,Mr. Speaker, just to recapitulate before I sit down~ The Government has not explained •••• MR. SMALLWOOD: Do not sit down. Do not deprive us of all this wisdom. AN HON. '.MEMBER: There is no quorum. MR.

CROSBIE: No quorum.Mr. Speaker. MR. MURPHY: You cannot say it is our fault, we are all here. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR. MURPHY: They are coming out of the cracks, from under the rocks. Do they get a sessional fee I wonder? MR. CROSBIE: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. CROSBIE: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. CROSBIE: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. CROSBIE: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. CROSBIE: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. CROSBIE: MR. SYi.ALLWOOD: MR. CROSBIE: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. CROSBIE: MR. SMALLWOOD: To recapitulate Mr. Speaker He has lost his wisdom. We have lots of speakers to speak on this side. But we want the hon. gentleman's wisdom. I will start again Mr.

Speaker. Yes, start all over, from the beginning. Why not? Why not, go ahead. The hon. the Premier has not learned a thing apparently. We are anxious to hear it. I will summarize. No, do not summarize, wait for a day or two. Then I will not sU111111arize. Do not, just start from the beginning. I will temporize. I could tell the hon. member another word, but I will not. MR. CROSBIE: The hon. Premier has a great way with words, or used to have a great way with words. Now he has to listen occasionally, he does not like it. He is on V.O.C.M. whining and wailing that the House is not doing its business. 12:9

April 15, 1971, Tape 268, Page 3 - apb MR. S~.ALLWOOD: Crying. MR. CROSBIE: Crying and bawling. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. Roaring? MR. MURPRY: This is really getting out of hand,Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman should be given a chance to speak. MR.S:MALLWOOD: A chance to speak? We are dying to hear him speak as all the other gentlemen were yesterday afternoon. Not one of them was in the House. Not one. MR. SPEAKER (Noel): Order Please! Would the hon. gentleman carry on? MR. CROSBIE: If! can Mr. Speaker, we are used to this. A.~ HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: The hon. Minister of Pollution just piped up. Mr.

Speaker, to summarize •.•• AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: Listen to him will you. What a gusher. MR. SMALLWOOD: I think he has petered out. MR. CROSBIE: What a gusher. MR. MURPHY: Barnum and Bailey would not put on such a show. MR. CROSBIE: Now, if I sullllllarize. The Resolution is one of non-confidence) Mr. Speaker, and the reason why it is being moved, and the reason why it should be accepted by the House is that it is one hundred percent accurate. In the last five years this Government did not adequatley maintain,improve the public services of Newfoundland, it cut them back.

It cut back the payment of social service allowances, welfare payments. It instituted a needs test for students attending Memorial University. It cut back on the grants .to school boards, the operating grants to school boards. It cut back in several other directions which I have enumerated before in this speech. It has.despite claiming there has been tight m::,ney in effect the last five years.borrowed a record a1110unt of in excess nf $660 million, at the rate of $133 million a year.

It now has to pay in interest in sinking funds each year, ao amount of $50 million in the year just ended, and $65 million coming up, so that item is now the third biggest spending department of the Government. 12:a

. April 15, 1971, Tape 268, Page 4 -- apb It increased taxes in every direction in the last five years. The S.S.A. tax by two percent from five to seven. Gasoline tax by six cents a gallon. The personal corporation tax by five percent. The corporation tax was increased twice. They cut out the water and sewage subsidy instituted in '66. It has increased taxes and reduced services in the last five years. It has pretended that there was tight money in effect so it had to make these cut­ backs at a time when it never borrowed so much. From 1949 to 1966, the Government borrowed $333 million direct and indirect.

From 1966 to today, the Government borrowed some $660 million direct and indirect in those five years. The average for the seventeen years, from '49 to '66, $20 million a year. The average from '66 to '71 $133 million a year,in those five years, yet pretending all the while that there was tight money. The Government is now in a position where is pays one and a half percent more in interest when it borrows than our neighbouring Province of Hove Scotia, and Nova Scotia has had the disaster of the heavy water plant that cost them $120 million or $130 million. MR. ~.ALLWOOD: $109 million. MR.

CROSBIE: $109 million the other day, but apparently, according to the papers it is up to $120 million or $130 million. MR. SMALLWOOD: $109 million as of three days ago. MR. CROSBIE: Well, $109 million is bad enough. Despite that disaster, Nova Scotia is borrowing today at one and a half percent less interest that we are. Less cost.

The Government has been so incauti011s in its financing that it has borrowed hundreds of millions of dollars, or a hundred million without making any arrangements for payment in the sinking fund, so that in the next two year $100 million has to be repaid by , t_he Government, so that it has to go out and borrow $100 million just to repay it. The Government,just because this is election year.will borrow this year, my guess is, no matter -..:hat c~,c budget abows, $150 million to $200 million to put on a good show in election year. In addition to the other forty it has to borrow to pay off.

The year after that it will have tc corrow again just to keep stanciin, · still. $100 million plus money to pay off the past borrowing. That is the 12~ 1

April 15, 1971, tape 268, Page 5 -- apb position the Government has the Province in. From the record of the last five years, it can be seen, that if the Govermnent stays in office this year, that next year, or at the least 1973, there will be a general tax increase and further decreases in services. The Government will not answer, or has not answered yet,Mr. Speaker, two important points that I posed about the oil refinery at Come by Char,c.e. Number (1), the $5 ~illion.

They have not disputed the fact that the perfromance put on by the Premier and the Minister of Health last October.when they pretended that the $5 million interim financing was ?&id back, was that exactly, a stage show, a pretense, that in fact, it never happened. The $5 million is outstanding, Mr. Shaheen had the money, and we cannot even get an audited report on hov he spent it. The Government has not answered the point that I pointed out this 110rning,Mr.

Speaker, in connectio~ with the Procon construction contract at Come by Chance, when I pointed out all the clauses that mean that the Government can be responsible for more money in connection with that project. $118 million worth of machinery and goods to come from England out of the $155 million, and the contract says that the Provincial Buildings, the Government of Newfoundlanu , is responsible if there is any customs duties or federal sales tax o~ any taxes in Canada at all. that could very well amount to $10 million to $20 million, only the Government can know. the Premier will not deny t:hat this rnt·::erial an.:: equipment may be subject to these customs duties and sales taxes.

He cannot deny because it is in the contract, that if they are subject to those duties and taxes the people of Newfoundland have to pay them, not Shaheen, not Shaheen Natural Resources or Procon. Procon is getting $155 million and that does not include any of those duties or taxes. He cannot deny that the Procon contract is not a turnkey contract. Clause after clause says, that if there is any additional cost the money must be found by Provincial Buildings, chat is the Newfoundland Government. If there is any overtime instituted down there we have to pay the extra cost.

If there are any payments foz patents or licenses we have to pay the extra cost. If there is any extra cost because of currency fluctuations we have to pay the extra cost, the people of Newfoundland. Instance after instance in that contract yet the Government has not explained 12S~~

April 15, 1971, Tape 268, Page 6 -- apb that to the people of Newfoundland. The Government pretends that it is costing $155 million, when even today we know that it is $160 million, and when with customs duties and other increases and the rest of it, it may go to $180 million or $200 million quite possibly. MR. SMALLWOD: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: The hon. the Premier will not pipe up and say that there are no customs duties or sales taxes, we do not hear a word. We know that a year ago, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, Mr.Pepin.announced that the Federal Government were concerne~ with countries that were exporting to Canada and financing the exports by giving cheap credit,low interest rates, the same situation we have at Come by Chance.

In fact, it was while that issue was being debated the five and a half nercent interest being given by England, the export credit guarantees of E.C.G.D., this is the finance English export, the Minister of Trade and Co11DDerce said that the Federal Government was getting very, very concerned about this because, these were under-cutting Canadian manufacturers, and that an investigation was being made into that. ~at effect ls that having .on the refinery at Come by Chance? Not a word from the Premier on that.

Not one sound, not a syliable, not a murmur on the customs duties or sales tax • • We know that there is a provision under the Customs and Tariff Lav• that if machinery and equipment can be manufactured in Canada, and it is being imported, that the tariff board can increase the duty on it to protect the Canadian manufacturer. Does that apply to this Come by Chance machinery and equipment? Not a word on that. Not a word on the true situation with respect to the wharf which! neglected to add. The wharf which is going to cost $16 million to $20 million.

The Federal Government does not trust the Shaheen project to see that that is paid back. It is asking the Newfoundland Government,through its Crown Corporation, to guarantee repayment of it. We have never had an honest explanation of that from the Premier. There is another $16 million to $20 million. We can add that now to the $160 million, so it is $160 million plus the wharf which we are goin~ to be obliged to see is repaid, plus the customs duties, the sales taxes and other 4~~~ .,,, _, ., ...

April 15, 1971, Tape 268, Page 7 -- apb escape clauses in the agreement. We do not hear a word from the Government about that. The House of Assembly should not need to be opened to get that infoniation, we should have had it last October when the documents were being signed. We did not have it then, we do not have it now. The Premier says; "oh the business of the House is being obstructed," what tripe. We have been here now, this is out tenth day and we cannot get a word from the Government on what the true situation financial and economic of this Province is, or Come by Chance.

We have a situation where the Javelin mill in Stephenville, we know not form the Government, not a word from the Government, we know from a financial prospectus filed down in New York that the price of that has gone up $15.9 million since last year. So that our guarantee is now $75 million instead of being $58 million. Is there a word from the Government about that? Any explanation about that? No. Anybody who brings that up in the House, are they obstructing the business of the country?

Or, is that the business of the country! ··-ts it not the business of the country, ltUU'&nteet" that the Government gives and how it spends its money? That is the business of the country. But the Government is not giving an explanation about any of it. Trying to pretend that the Opposition are obstructing the business. That is our business, to try to find out some of these facts and information for the people of Newfoundland, instead of the fairy tales. ~o divert the people's minds from these issues, what happens?

The Premier adjourns the Bouse, if there were such pressing business to be done in this House, why was it adjourned from April 2nd. to April 13th. while the Premier and three or four cabinet Ministers and the hon. member for Bonavista South, the only one that could really benefit from the trip went down to Louisiana to look at oil wells?

April 15, 1971 Tape 269 page 1 offahore oil wells. I can see sending Dean Bruneau down and some of these other experts who can appreciate what they are seeing and related to vbat it might be like off the coast of Newfoundland. But not the Premier and the rest traipsing off to Louisiana, to pretend that we are going to have an oil boom and gas boom here in Newfoundland ~his year and ne~:, T~ac is all that was for, to get the public's minds off the real problems here in Newfowidland. Some more pie in the sky, to wave in this election year.

That was not the purpose of the trip, we all know that side trips were made Florida and everything else during that week. If the business of the Bouse was so pressing the H~use could have stayed open. Why does the House have to shut every time the Premier wants to go somewher~l There are.. twen-cy- nine on the other side and ten on this side, we cannot overthrow the Government just because the Hon. the Premier goes off somewhere.

Mas he nobody over there he can leave in charger -ro get on the radio.and get on with tripe that the business of the House is being obstructed The Government calls the business of the House and we are ready to deal with it. But we have a Government that will not answer the most serious questions that tries to pretend that it is all _very boring and just tripe and there is nothing to answer.

We would not need this debate if the Government would just give the House and the public the facts, but instead of that it tries to hide and obscure the facts, and that is why this part of this non-confidence mot~on states; " ••• denlores the failure of the Government during the sa~e period to provide the public of Newfoundland with the facts concerning the economic and financial position of the Province, as well as failure to answer questions tabled here." The other night, Mr.

Speaker, I reviewed the five Budget Speeches and five Speeches From the Throne that were given since 1966. ~!isscat:ement after misstatement in them. The 1967 Budget Speech, a turnkey contract has been given to Litton Industries to construct the pulp and paper mill 12~5

April 15 1971 Tape 269 page 2. at Come by Chance, a deliberate misstatement of facts,was never done, no such contract or if there wre what happened to it?

It is not there now. 'Ihe Budget Speech 1968 where the Government pretends that the Government takes $90 million from the pockets of·Newfoundlanders and gives them back $104 million, and actually says that the GoverrJnent of Newfoundland is costing the public of Newfoundland nothing. lmagine that for a piece of bluff; and the same budget speech going on and jacking up the taxes and putting up the SSA Tax and posing a means test on sllaries and allowances at Memorial. This is just a couple of the more extreme examples. That is why,Mr.

Speaker, this resolution of non­ confidence is being moved and why I will support it and why I trust that members on both sides of the House will support it. Mr. Speaker, it has been a period - when the Hon. the Premier is up in the gallery next year looking down we will not shout out "I spy st:cangers" if he happens to laugh or make an ex~lama.tion, when he sees his successor sitting over there. The Hon. the Premier actually will be invited to sit in the Speaker's gallery, and if be makes the odd noise we will not say "I spy strangers," as he has said - MR.SMALLWOOD: The gentleman is all heart.

He loves me, the way he lova;c:; me it scares me to death. MR.CROSBIE: I have the same deep abiding affection for the Ho~. the Premier that he has for me. MR.SMALLWOOD: The same love. MR.CROSBIE: Now, Mr. Speaker, - MR.SMALLWOOD: Ever since he got trimmed in the Leadership Convention and he failed to become Premier, he loves me to death. Especially to death. MR.CROSBIE: There is the same childish old stuff. The same childish olci stuff. Leadership Convention. HR, SMALLWOOD: Loves 111e to death. No, the hon.gentleman was not in that 12~6

April 15 1971 Tape 269 page 3. Convention. He did not try to become Leader of the Liberals. is voting Tory. Now he MR.CROSBIE: It was thought in those days Mr. Speaker, that it could be the same Liberal Party of Newfoundland but there is no chance of that now. The Premier is going to go down and take the Liberal Party with him, and to get a change of Government the Liberal Party has to be defeated to, that is the simple facts of the situation. Mr. Speaker, this is being that, the five years I have mentioned the period of waste and extravagance. It has been a period of misguided industrial schemes.

It has been a period of folly and incompetence - MR.SMALLWOOD: Two Tories and five Liberals here - that is seven. MR.CROSBIE: The trouble is that the enormity of this,Mr. Speaker, is yet to be realized. MR.SMAUWOOD: The hon. gentleman has the House in the hollow of his hand. MR.CROSBIE: And the price of all this has yet to be paid. MR.SMALLWOOD: We are here breathless with excitement listening - MR.SPEAKER: Order - MR.SMALLWOOD: The reason is they are gone out of the House, now he is going. Hard to take. Hard to take. MR.CROSBIE: Mr.

Spe~r. we ar.e supposed to speak uninterrupted'.and no one minds an interjection or something going back and forth but - MR.SPEAKER: As the hon. gentleman said it is very difficult to hear. The Chair cannat enforce order in the House unless hon. members want order enforced. That is the first thinsi;. Secondly, what happens is that an hon. member begins speaking in a light vein and get conversation back across the floor,the very people ask for order then are the people who break the rules of •orde~· -an~ so on.

Now it is impossible for che Chcir to maintain order in this House unless the members want order maintained. MR.CROSBIE: The only order I asked for.,~r. Speaker, as I said,I do ~ot 12~7

April 15 1971 Tape 269 page 4. mind an interjection across the floor but if somebody is just to out­ shout you for two or three minutes, that is a different matter. Nobody minds a bi~ of heckling and banter but for all those reasons.Mr.

S?eaker, despite the Premier's request,I will end up by saying that there is more than ample reason for this non-confidence motion, -r hat the record of tha last five years is a pitiful one and that we can only hope that the Government that has this record is going to be reversed this year,so that a Government, so someone can get into pawer who is going to seriously inform the people of Newfoundland what the position is and what can be done about it, and get this situation under control before it is too late. MR.SPEAKER: Order please!

The motion is that this House regrets the failure of the Government since 1966 to.adequately maintain and improve the public service of the Province of Newfoundland despite severe increase in taxation in the Province of Newfoundland and despite the borrowings by the Government of monies and the guarantees of the borrowings of money by the Government of Newfoundland at a rate during the five financial years from April 1, 1966 three times in excess of borrowing of the Govern­ ment ·for the seventeen years from April 1, 1949. and the fai:ure of the Government during the same period to provide the public of Newfoundland with the facts concerning economic and financial position of the Province as well as the failure of the Government to answer fully and comp.::.e.:ely questions tabled in this House by members hereof touching upon the public affairs of the Province and therefore states that it has iD the Government. no confidence HR.MARSHALL: I rise in support of this non-confidence motion.

It is very applicable to the present time. One of the re~ons why this Govern- ment has been unable to maintain public services Mr. Speal~e:.·, is ·:-~,:-:,use of the lack of planning that we have heard so much about from time co time. 12:;3

April 15, 1971 Tape 269 page 5. At the inception of this Government there was a Royal Commission Report 11111de, that the Government has obviously ignored. It shows during its tenure · to go from crisis to crisis, from the fishermen down in tlacentia Bay,t9 that situation,to the present situation with respect to the teachers, the Government is unable to plan. It is unable to plan because i~ is spending so much beyond its means. This can be very easily seen Mr. Speaker, when one compares the estimated borrowings and the actual borrowings of this particular government.

We all know that in 1966 what iniquitous legislation went through this House. This was legislation empowering the Government, empowering the Cabinet to borrow money.to pledge the credit of the Province. This has been spoken about again and again. The powers originally were a little bit less and they became more and more expanded. We see the situation - 1 have a table here before me now - which,going south, the divergence between the estimated borrowing and the actual borrowings of this Govern­ ment. It is a very interesting table because in 1965 - 66, this is before this particular legislation was used,Mr.

Speaker, we had an estimate of borrowing ,of $20 million and an actual borrowing of ~20 million, fl.l\d so on. Before that pretty well on line, so it should be at all times. There 'should not be a cent borrowed in this Province unless the Legislature passes on it. But Low and Beholdi let us take a look at the effect of the Act,of the Amendment to the Revenue and Audit Act empowering the Government to borrow in its own secret Cabinet Chamber. In 1966-67,the estimated borrowings were $28 million. But the actual borrowings were $56 million, 1967-68, $56 million was the estimated borrowings.

The actual borrowings in secret Cabinet sessions were $96 million, a difference of $43 million of our money was borrowed in the Cabinet before the House knew about it,under the provisions of that Act. Not quite that bad in 1968-69; $46 million estimated, $67 12~9

April 15, 1971 Tape 269 page 6. million actual. Mere we have a $21 million borrowed in the secret Cabinet Chamber. We come up to 1969-70, we see a difference of $13 million,bet~een the actual borrowings and the estimated borrowings, $50 million were estimated to be necessary to be borrowed by the Crown in 1969-70 but actually $63 million were borrowed, that is $13 million. The good all and end all comes this year.

In 1970-71 1 the estimated last year that this Province would have to borrow a sum of $70 million and in actual fact,as far as we know at present,$125 million has been borrowed and that is a whopping difference of $45 million borrowed in the secret confines of the Cabinet. Now under the provisions of this Act it is all very well to say that the Cabinet must come and inform the Legislature of the borrowings, and they know about it. It is absolutely nothing that this Legislature can do about an ~ct by the Government of this nature. It must honour the dead. It is delegated authority improperly.

Probably not improperly, there were a different group of people in chargew but the situation I am afraid ,Mr. Speaker, is that it has been proven positive ~hat the powers -. that were delegated by the Legislature to the Cabinet .since 1966, have been abused and misused by the executive arm of this Govern ­ ment to the detriment of the people of this Province. MR.SMALLWOOD: Will the hon. gentleman tell me if he knows of any other one of the remaining nine ~rovinces of Canada? Is there another one besides Newfoundland.that has the same authority? Is there another Province another Government?

MR.MARSHALL: If the Hon. the Premier will sit down I shall tell him, there are other Provinces. There are a few others - MR.S~1ALLWOOD: How many1 How many? How many? MR.MARS~ALL: But they have not abused the powers they have been given. MR.SMALLWOOD: How many? Row many have the powers? 12CO

April 15 • 1971 Tape 269 page 7. MR..MARSHALL: There are about five or six I - . MR. SMALLWOOD: Ninw - MR. .MARSHALL: Oh no, about five or six I would say. MR.SMALLWOOD: Nine. Nine. Nine. Nine other Provinces altogether. MR..MARSHALL: I could not care less if there were twenty other Provinces. in every state but - MR.,SMALLWOOD: No, of course not, but it suits the hon. gentleman - MR.MARSHALL: There is no state in the Western World that has abused its powers that have been delegated to it,like this Liberal Government has - MR..SMALLWOOD: We are a Liberal Government - MR.MARSHALL: None at all.

Here we have here $45 million in the secret coafines of Cabinet borrowed that we have to pay back. /Js I say,it is a shocking abysmal abuse of the powers that has been delegated to it, We see the result if we look at the Supplementary Supply Bills that have come 1n, the mounting Supplementary Supply Bills that have come since 1966. There was $53 million in 1966-67, $54 million more supplementary supply sought. They had the money so they are going to spend it anyway, $54 million spent as the result of borrowing,all of this excess money,in 1967-68.

In 1968-69 we have $23 million, 1969-70, $21 million; and this year we have warrants. ·rhe information that we have , there has been spending on Lieutenant Governor's warrants last year of a whopping $43 million. his is directly referable and relative to the power given to the Cabinet to borrow mottey. The Cabinet has unlimited, pretty well an unlimited supply of money in so far as its creditors will continue to lend money to the Cabinet, to the Government. That being so, they also spend and they are spending beyond their m€ans , They are not able to balance the Budget. They have not been 12Ci

April 15 1971 Tape 269 page 8. able to balance the Budget. As a result of this they have not been able to provide any positive type of planning.As a result of this we have gone in the past five years, from crisis to crisis, over and over and over again - • 12C2

April 15th, 1971 - Tape 270 JM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: We are ~t the s:tuation now where we pretty well have to stick our finger in the dyke because of the mounting debt that we have, over $1. billion and it is all due, it is all due to the lack of proper management and you can put a lot of it at the foot by tracing the history of the borrowings of this Government. You can lay a lot of it at the foot of this legislation in 1966-1967 authorizing the Cabinet to borrow money,which has been abused , I say, Mr. Speaker, as no other Government in the Western society has ever a~u.sed the power entrusted to it.

So we talk about balancing the budget. It is absolutely necessary that we balance the budget. We are told this by the Liberal Government in one of its budget speeches and I want to quote from the one, I believe it was 1968-1969 on page 82 because it becomes very sad, it would be humerous, it would be very, very humerous if the situation had not become as grave as it is right now. I quote on page 82 of the Budget Speech by the Govern­ ment of the Province, "A fast growing, fast expanding econ0111Y needs to have considerable amounts of fresh capital pouring into it at all times.

That fresh capital must come almost entirely from outside the boundries of our Province. It must come from investors, either directly or through our banks, bond houses or other financial institutions. These investors must feel that their money if invested in the Newfoundland economy will not only give a satisfactory return but is invested safely as well. There must be confidence in Newfoundland, in Newfoundland's ~conomy and in Newfoundland's Government. This confidence could not last if Newfoundland's Government failed to maintain its finances in a condition of health and strength.

To say the very least, the Budget must be balanced. It is entirely possible even probable in such a fast growing Province that unexpected expenses arising in any year would tend tothrust the budget out of balance for that year. Catastrophe, storm damage, fishery failure can involve the Government in considerable exceptional expenditure and that is to be expected and when such events thrust the budget out of balance, in that year, a det~rmined and successful effort must be made to balance the budget in the succeeding year or the two years succeeding and to collect sufficient 12C3

April 15th, 1971 MR. MARSHALL: Tape 270 JM - 2 adcitional revenue to take care of the deficit: Then briefly quoting on page 91, "We have decidedM(this is the Government speaking)"two years ago that at all costs, at any cost we will balance the budget, we will keep Newfound­ land's name good in the financial markets of the world. We will maintain Newfoundland's credit. We ·will prove to all concerned that Newfoundland has the courage and the skill to balance its budget." What a fraud, what a fraud that is when you judge it in relation to the present day performance and the performance since that time.

Look at your supplementary supply. There was a valiant attempt made last year, look at the Lieutenant Governor's warrants, a valiant attempt made last year to balance the budget, $43. millions of dollars by Lieutenant Governor's warrants. There you see the sincerity in the direction of this Government.

It is quite true that the foreign investors must have confidence in Newfoundland and in the economy of the Province and in the Government of the Province but I doubt very much whether they have too much confidence now in the Government of this Province and if this Government keeps on very much longer unfortunately they will not have any confidence in the economy of the Province and that will be a very, very serious situation and a sad, sad day for this Province.

As a result of this, and I want to say again, emphasize again that the biggest problem that Newfoundland is facing now is a Cabinet that has taken the powers that have been delegated to it and has abused it end ~s a result of this there is an appearance, a false appearance that there was money galore, there was money for everything. We saw an ex.ample of this given at the Economic Development Conference and as a result of this particular attitude of the Goverl'llllent, what have we seen? We have seen a country that has lost faith in the Government of this Province and rightly so.

We have seen unrest and acrimonious strikes such as this Province has never seen before. It is an abuse of the power of Government and it is diasterous. Unless, Mr. Speaker, the legislatures of tMa Province, the general public of the Province, the news media and every

section and segment of our society see the need to restore this assembly to its proper place in relation 12C4.

April 15th, 1971 MR. MARSHALL: Tape 270 JM - 3 to the arrangement of the fiscal and social affairs of this Province diasterous results will pertain. We have seen, I say, the by-products of these particular acts by the Cabinet, we have seen the by-products of the loss of faith of the people.-of this Province in this Government and rightly so in the events which have transpired over the past five years. How can we have confidence, how can anyone have confidence in a Government or an entity which is abusing its powers? Then we go on now, Mr.

Speaker, the non-confidence motion touches upon answers to questions and I would certainly agree that questions have not been answered fully and completely. Not only completely, Mr. Speaker, but I am afraid not completely correctly either and I want to quote and go into some detail with respect to question 195,appearing on the Order Paper of March 29th, last,as an example of the inability of the Government to completely and fully answer questions.

That question asked by the hon. the member of Gander to the Premier asked, (1) , "Who was the contractor to whom Hotel Buildings,Limited owed $50,000. as shown in the Public Accounts the 31st of March 1969?" The answer given .was Lundrigan's,Limited. The second question was, ''What work or services were performed which created this indebtedness and at what date was it incurred?" The answer, transferred to title of land. (3) "Has this amount since been paid to the contractor involved?" The answer was yes.

Then a supplementary question was asked about the area of the land involved and the distinct impression given at the time,by the hon. Premier, I asked a supplementaey question was that, ''Oh, this related tor:the land upon which Holiday Inns is built out on the -road out there in St. John's." Now this question, because this is very important, Mr. Speaker, and I want to go into it in some depth but this speaker was motivated by an observation of the Auditor General on March 31st, 1969 in the accounts of Hotel Buildings,Limited,on page 239.

His note to the shareholder and he said in his report to the shareholders, "In connection with my examination of the accounts of the company, the company being Hotel Buildin~s,Limited, exclusive of those mainta1.ned by the operator, I report that'. (1) the increaae 12£:5

April 15th, 1971 MR. MARSHALL: Tape 270 JM - 4 in the value of fixed assets, land, St. John's in the amount of $50,000. and the balance will show that the fixed assets increased in 1968 from $210,940. for land in St. John's to $260,940 which is a difference of $50,000. The increase in the value of the fixed assets of $50,000., says the Auditor General, have not been supported by a valuation satisfactory to me.

I am unable to express an opinion on this item pending a receipt of a recognized appraiser's report which I have requested the company to obtain." Then again on March 31st, 1970, the Auditor General addressing himself to this particular observation, on page 251 of the Public Accounts, in the report to the shareholders of Hotel Buildings said, "In my report to the shareholders for the year ended 31 March 1969, reference was made to an increase in the value of fixed assets, land, at St.

John's, in the amount of $50,000., which was not supported by a valuation report satisfactory to me, and that I was unable to express an opinion on this item pending receipt of a recognized appraiser's report - MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order,- I am not sure whether it is a good point of order but I apprehend that this House has adopted a motion to appoint a select co111111ittee to examine the report~ of the Auditor General, we have in fact adopted that motion.

It is true that the select co111111ittee has not as yet been named by Your Honour but the House has ordered that a select committee be appointed to consider the report of the Auditor General. ,· _ In view of the fact that the Rouse has taken that action and that the report is to be examined and reported upon ' by a select committee,which Your Honour will name, in view of that fact, is it in order now to be debating a report which the House has ordered a select committee to examine? MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speak.er, on that point of order, I am addressing myself to this non-confidence motion the last part of which condemns the failure of the Government to answer,fully and completely,queations tabled in this Hcause by the members here touching upon the public affairs of the Province and therefore states it has no confidence in the Government. I am talking 12CG

April 15th, 1971 MR. MARSHALL: Tape 270 JM - 5 about that, Mr.

Speaker, I am addressing myself to a question that was addressed to the hon. the Premier, question 195, and I would submit that I have the right to go into this question because I am not talking about any­ thing relating to the Auditor General's committee or the committee on public accounts that is being set up but I am talki~g . .about a question that to my mind has not been answered properly and that the parts that have been answered properly require elucidation to the general public because it relates to a payment to Lundrigan's Limited of:·an amount far, far in excess of that which they should have attained.

MR. SMALLWOOD: It is in the Auditor General's report and the report is to be examined by a Select Cotmnittee. MR. CROSBIE: On a point of order. On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I will submit, Your Honour, that this is obvious nonsense. The report of the Auditor General on the public accounts for last year refer to just about every bit of money spent by the Government and everything the Government does. Now to suggest that 11lembers of the House cannot discuss any item that is in the Auditor General's report or any fact that is in the public accounts is just by stating it seent;to be ridiculous.

For example, the Auditor General reports that the debt of the Province,as of the end of March last year. is $766. million, if the hon. Premier's point of order was correct the members of this Bouse could not discuss the public debt of the Province in this House any further until the aelect committee brought in their report. Now that is obviously nonsense, Mr. Speaker.

The appoint­ ment of this select committee has nothing,that we can discuss anything that is in the public accounts or the Auditor General1s report whether or not a select committee is ever appointed or ever meets and to find otherwise would be to cut off all debate in this House on any public issues at a~l. MR.

SMALLWOOD: I can see the point of order, it is a well-kuovn and well accepted rule of Parliamentary procedure that a matter is debated only once in a session of the House and if the Rouse is given an opportunity and is aware of the fact that it is going to have that opportunity to debate a certain matter then it is not allowed to debate it until that opportunity 12S7

April 15th, 1971 MR. SMALLWOOD: Tape 270 JM - 6 arises. Now in this case the House itself has ordered by a motion adopted yesterday that a select coDDDittee be appointed to examine the report of the Auditor General and to report back to the House here and to bring the Auditor General, no doubt, before the select committee and question him on his report. So the report of the Auditor General is to be examined by a select committee. Now that oppaa:tunity has not only been provided but it has been provided by the House, unanimously adopting a motion to that effect.

So the House itself having decided that the report of the Auditor General will examined,by a select committee,! am submitting to Your Honour the possibility that it is out of order to debate a matter now which is to come before a select committee which will reC0111111end to the House so that the House again will have the opportunity of debating the matter when the report of the select committee comes back. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, if I may on that point of order, I do not think it is the hon. member's intention to go through the public accounts.

He is just using them for ,~ reference to a matter MR SMALLWOOD: It is not public accounts, it is a report. MR MURPHY: A red herring, an absolute red herring. MR SMALLWOOD: It is not public accounts ••• MR MURPHY: It is a reference to the Auditor General. MR SPEAKER: ORDER. Order Please. Just using it for reference to a matter. That is all we are getting, Sir, and I think the gentleman is perfectly in order to quote any factual figures in answer to a question - that was apparently not the proper answer that we received. MR SPEAKER: There has been a point of order raised. 12C8

April 15, 1971 Tape 271 PK - 1 ~SPEAKER: I was having a little doubt about our continuing on this trend, when the point of Order was raised. Consequently, I have been going back and forth over the ~ages of Beauchesne here. But, I recognize the fact that the hon. member for St. John's East is talking to the Amendment which is now before the Bouse and which deals with this particular subject. I also recognize the fact that there is an element of anticipating a matter which is to become the House very shortly or I would presume very shortly, at least it is a matter that has been set down.

Therefore, there are certain remarks that be has been making which are directly in anticipation and there will be provision made for this, and if we do it now there will be needless repetition. But, it says; "references to debates to the current session is discouraged, even if the reference is not irrelevant to the issue that is before the House, as it tends to reopen matters already decided." And the next sentence, of course, is the key to the whole issue. ''The same -result is often obtained by indirect methods.

Direct reference is permitted, however, when a member wishes to com.plain about something." This does not apply in this particular instance. As I say, the matter the hon. member is raising is relevant to the matter that is before the House. But I think there is an elePent of anticipation and I think that he sees what I am driving at now and that he can do this without infringing either one of the rules. Will the hon~--member please continue. 12G9

April 15, 1971 Tape 271 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I shall not refer to the Public Accounts, I will refer then to this question No. 195. The answer given was that this land on which Holiday Inns is constructed, out there on Portugal Cove Road, there was a sum of $50,000 paid to Lundrigan's, Limited for an area of land involving Hotel Buildings, Limited. And in answer to a supplementary questton (this does not affect the Auditor General's Report) but in answer to a supplementary question, Your Honour, the impression was given by the Premier to the affect that this $50,000 - What area of land involved?

It ts all of the area. Well, it is not all of the area, Mr. Speaker, of land. On September 28th. 1966 Lundrigan's, Limited sold, (and anyone can see it in Volume 833, Folio 158 of the Registry of Deeds). On S•t~mber 28, 1966, Lundrigan's, Limited sell to Hotel Buildings, Limited an area of land measuring 152.2 feet, on Portugal Cove load. On the eastern side it measqres 221.4 feet, on the back 128.6 feet and on the other side 83 feet and 76.2 feet. Now the area of land involved, Mr.

Speaker, (and I want to be accurate about this, this is not in the Public Accounts either, this is from one of these computers) the area involved exactly is .5900407, if you want to be exact, of an acre. It involved 25,702.1763000 square feet. I: is little over then half an acre. For some reason or other $1.00 is expressed to be the consideration in the deed. We are told that $50,000 was paid to Lundrigan's, Limited. This works out, if you vant _to do a mathematical calculation, Mr. Speaker, this works out to $83,000 per acre. Lundrigan's,Limited were paid $83,000 per acre.

That is a pretty expensive piece of land. 12:'o

April 15, 1971 Tape 271 PK - J The next question one asks oneself: How much did they pay for it? They 11111st have had paid a healthy price in order for the Government to pay them $83,000. Because the deed registered, Mr. Speaker, about two years before then, in January of 1964, there vu a conveyance from Thomas Kenny, the Kenny family that have lived on Portugal Cove Road for years, of this exact, self- same piece of land, this .5900407 of an acre, for the wopping sum of $15,000. Two years later, Hotel Buildings, Limited purchased it from Lundrigan's, Limited for the sum of $50,000, a difference, Mr.

Speaker, an inexplicable difference of $35,000. Now that is not all: Obviously, Hotel Buildings, Limited, Holiday Inns is built on 110re than an acre a little bit over an half an acre of land. Hotel Buildings, Limited acquired from the City of St. John's this residual land, 7.7117 acres, if you want to be accurate about it, 7.7117 acres of land, with 300 feet frontage on the Portugal Cove Road, and this vu purchased in September 1966. Remember the other purchase from Lundrigan's was made in September of 1966 as well. There the consideration was expressed to be $1.00.

But the balance sheet, if we look at the balance sheet, a balance sheet of Hotel Buildings, Limited, you will see that the sum of $210,000 was paid for land. Presumably, allowing that all of this was paid to the City,Council, this worked out to about $27,000 or $28,000 per acre, which was the valuation of land at that particular time in the area. We pay Lundrigan's, the Government is prepared to pay Lundrigan's over $50,000 more for its land, proportionally, than it paid the City, and it paid the City th,. fair market value. Why did it pay Lundrigan's? Why did it pay Lundrigan's three times the fair market value?

There has been some talk that there has been a valuation made, a valuation was asked by a official of this House. There has been some public reference 1271

April 15, 1971 Tape 271 PK - 4 MR. MARSHALL: (we have not got Hansard yet) to the effect that an appraisal was made. When was the appraisal made? Note it was made after the fact, after an official of this Bouse made the observation. But I would like to see that valuation. The valuation happens to be the opinion of a person doing the valuation itself.

And I do not care what kind of dressing it got, how the turkey happens to be stuffed; what ki;.lC. of title the person has; there is nobody that can put a valuation equivalent to$ 83,000 that ia paid to Lundrigan's, Limited, per acre for land in that area at that time. There are many questions that arise, when you talk about - and talking, Mr. Speaker, on this qu~stion on this failure to answer fully and completely the questions, is there any doubt about that? Why was the valuation given after, in many questions arising? Why was there $1.00 in the deed?

Two years later, after ferreting out questions and after an official of the Bouse makes an observation, other­ wise it would be lost, until the new Government came in and made its investigation. We would probably find a lot~of other things then. Why pay Lundrigan's at least 200 percent higher? "Why was there an intimation given to this House, an impression given to this House that the area of land covered was much more than &"l half an -'~re? And bow many other instances of waste, Mr. Speaker, of abysmal waste of Public Funds have we got in this Province?

"When a Government can afford to pay a company which everybody knows has been a favourite son of this Government for sometime. And $83,000 - MR. ROBERTS: ls that a crime? MR. MARSHALL: It is a crime. It is a social crime to pay $83,000 per acre to Lundrigan'&, Limited, when children are going into portable classrooms in Newfoundland, when teachers' salaries are low, when you

April 15, 1971 Tape 271 PK - 5 MR. MARSHALL: have the service which you have in Labrador and all around the Island. AN HON. MEMBER: La,iyers' fees are high. MR. MARSHALL: Ri2ht. but they are earned honestly. Now, Mr. Speaker, the next question we have, another question: We have from time to time being asking in this House a very important question affecting the public affairs of this Province. This is the amount of the subsidy; the actual cost of the power to the Newfoundland Power Commission. We must get the details of the ERCO subsidy, to find out what the situation really is.

The Government have been refusing consistently to answer questions. Last year, Question No.232. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition asked the Premier in the dual role of Minister of Economic Devopment, what were the revenues, what were the reasons for underestimating the amount of power subvention to Electric Reduction Company, Limited, requiring an additional $1,350,000 payment during 1969 - 1970. What period is covered by the total payment of $3 million?

Subsequently, Question SO, asked by the hon . the member for St John's West, that same year, a similar <1uestion, vital question .; What quantity of electrical power was sold and delivered to the Electric Reduction Company of Canada Phosphorus Plant at Long Harbour, by the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission, during the c.e.lendar year 1969, and what price per kilowatt hour was the said power sold and delivered? The answer given; that negotiations were presently going on and it was a~ainst public interest but it may be possible to answer it later.

Questions on the Order Paper right now, put there by myself: '),/ , ... Question No. ~O and No.332, this year: and I would be delighted to receive the answers, as we must. We are now left to speculate. What does this speculation result in? We find most of our information, 12':'3

April 15th. 1971 Tape 271 PK -G MR. ~.AR.SHALL: Mr. Speaker, unfortunatley, some of our information with respect to the financial condition of this Province through prospectus that have been filed by the Government and various Government agencies for the prupose of issaing getting loans, and issuing bond issues. And I have here in my hand a direct placement memorandum of the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission• also put out by that company., A. E, Ames ar:c Company, on August 21, 1969.

And in that particular memorandum we can see (page 8, I believe it is) we see that Electric Reduction COmJl'.!iDY has contracted tb· purchase a minimum - MR. SPEAK.ER: (NOEL): Order! Order, please! The attention of! the Speaker has been drawn to the fact that there is no quorum. Would the clerk please cowt the House? Order, Please! MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MI.T SPEAKER: (NOEL): I might say that it appears, when someone says, there is no quorum in the House; according to the authorities the Speaker is auppose to allow 11111I11bers who are standing in the Galleries time to resume their seats.

Carry on please. MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, we see then on page 8 of this memorandum that the Electric Reduction Company of Canada contracted to pay to purchase a minimum monthly contract amount of 55,480,000 kilowatt hours of electricity. This works out to a yearly amount 665,760,000 kilowatt hours. We are given~that is the only information we have so far, we are given in the estimates of 1969-70, an estimate of the payment to ERCO by way of subsidy, that is, the difference between the actual cost MR. MURPHY: To a point of order! It is very difficult to hear the speaker. MR.

SPEAKER:(NOEL) Order, please. MR. CROSBIE: There are other conversations going on, while other people are standing. MR. MARSHALL: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, in the estimates of 1969 -or 1970, we see an amount of $1,650,QOO that is being provided for this subsidy to _,._- to pay the cost of the Newfoundland Power Commission, the l:!rllount that they 1274

I ' ' April 15th. 1971 Tape 271 PK -7 MR, MARSHALL: would be short by reason of selling power to the Electric Reduction Company of Canada,Limited at two and a-half mils a kilowatt hour. 12:'5

April 15th., 1971 'rape no 272 Page 1 Mr. Marshall. This works out to $1 million or expressed to be $1,650,000. Subsequently, this Govenrment, which has the power in its secret Cabinet meetings of borrowing money, extra money; did not pay too much attention to the estimates, got by Lieutenant Governor's Warrant, $1,350,000. an additional $1,350,000, which makes the total of $3 million. Now I want you to note first of all and draw the a~tention, Mr. Speaker, to the original estimate of $1,650,000.

This is the product of two and a half mils per kilowatt hour times the contractual amount actualy contracted to be taken by ERCO according to this prospectus - two and a half mils times ,:665,760,000 kilowatt hours equals this amount of $1,650,000. So, I think we can conclude from that.- We do not have the information available to us,. it is vital information to the public. We can conclude from that that originally the cost was estimated by Government to be two and a half mils per kilowatt hour. But the cost is actually in tha vicinity of six mils or over six mils per kilowatt hour.

It is nothing new, of course, for this Government to underestimate the liabilities which it is going to incur by reason of its actions. Now if ERCO took the entire contract, Mr. Speaker. if you take - we do not know, We have to suppose. This is one~of the p~oblems we have here in Newfoundland, we have in this Government · not answering questions. If we took,as given,the fact that Electric Reduction Company of.

Canada too~ its entire contractual amount of 665,760,000 kilowatt hours in that particular year and if we took the subsidy to be 3.5 mils per kilowatt hour. which is a difference between this amount I say of six mils and the two and half mil subsidy, you get $2,330,000. So what ahout-: the balance of $670,000. It must mean - it has to mean something. It has to mean that the power costs more or the accounting is bad or something. We are entitled to an explanation. It is ~ry doubtful, in any event. It is very doubtful. ;.,- 'these figures have to be explained. They can only be explained by answering 1276

April 15th., 1971 Tape no, 272 Page 2 Kr. Mars.hall . the questions that have been placed time and time again before this Government. It is very doubtful whether ERCO actually used its entire contractual allotment, It is public knowledge. We all know that there was a tremendous amount of down-time during that particular period as a result of the pollution in Placentia Bay and the shutdowns and that and the problems that they had over the period of time. This Government is bound to account for its $3 million.

The only way it can properly account for this f3 million is to give us the information ve require, to which we are entitled'! which the public must know. To ;-r use the reply that~is against the public interest to give this answer is hogwash. It will not be accepted and will never be accepted from this side of the House. We will never be driven off from that point. Another question, Mr. Speaker, talking about not answering questions properly, is Question no. 216 on the Order Paper, again asked to the Premier. It is on the Order Paper of March 29th.

Can the Premier tell the Bouse the names of the three internationally known firms who have agreed to establish petro-chemical plants at Come-by-Chance, as indicated in his statement to the House on 17 July, 1970? The ~swer was a smart yes, he can. When pressed further on a aupplementary question, will he say? It was an abrupt,no. It was a great joke. We have been told - the people of this Province are entitled to know the names of these petro-chemical concerns. It is to be noted that in December 31, 1970, Mr.

Jamieson, in the edition of the '~vening Telegram/ December 31, 1970, page three thereof: "Transport Minister Donald Jamieson says the idea that a petro-chemical complex could evolve out of Come-by-Chance Oil Refinery Project is justifiable on economic and scientific grounds.'' But he went on to say that there is a consensus that there wil~ be, at least, one petro-chemical complex built in Canada's east coast. Whether it will be in Newfoundland or at Gulf Oil's Hawkesbu-ry, Nova Scotia Oil Refinery or somewhere else ia not known at the moment. 12:'7

April 15th,, 1971 Tape no, 272 Page 3 Mr. Marshall. But we want to know the situation. Surely, if there were three who were already to come, Mr. Jamieson, the Federal Government vould know about it. If they were internationally known concerns, they would have had to make approaches to the Federal Governme~t,through the Department of Trade and Commerce. The Minister of Transport would have been the first, probably.to know about it. Regardless of what approaches, Mr. Speaker, the general populace of this Province is entitled to know the names, They are entitled to know the names of these particular companies.

Now if it happens that it is the_ result of the application of the develop or perish attitude by the Government, by their policy they put up a refinery, without the possibility of their being petro-chemical plants - all right. That is the policy of the Government and the public will judge them accordinly. But, at least, the public of this Pr.ovince is entitled to know what are the · names of these petro-chemical companies so that it can assure and give them further faith in the complex itself. I could go on, Mr. Speaker. There are millions of dollars.

The ruon_v~y, one of the many, many reasons that we have been .unable to put public services up to the height to which they should~be, Mr, Speaker, is the fact that the millions, upon millions of dollars, untold millions that have bee~ taken by this Government and spent on various aborted projects.

Nobody is going to fault them fcrplanning, You will see the huge millions of dollars being paid out in recent years for commissions and when you look at the results 'from these commissions, 1110st of the recotm11endations, probably eighty-five per cent of the recommendations have not been implemented, You have to say u a result of the inability of this Government to ~come to grip with its own critics, its own reasonable critics.and to take remedial steps that a large part of it has been wasted. When you see the amount that has been expended on plans, various plans that have been aborted, aborted plans.

You get the plans and you do not pay half millions of dollars, hundreds of thousands 1278.

April 15th •• 1971 Tape DO. 272 Page 4 Mr. Karahall of dollars out oo a plan unless you are pretty sure you are going to go through wi.th it. Theo, Mr. Speaker, you do not allow yourself to be put off. You are to govern. You do not allow yourself to be put off by your own selfish political interest and see the money of the people of this Province wasted as a result. Now I have heard references made the other day to the sanity, questioning the sanity of one of the members ef this House by the hon. Premier. Well I quaation and I am sure the people of Newfoundland question the financial sanity of this Government.

Thia is the situation that we have. The Government spencbmenily; gets its 1110D.ey from its own private little club, the Cabinet loom. HR.. NOLAN: Jealousr. will get you nowhere. MR. MARSHALL: In the Cabinet Room where nobody knows about it. By the time the Legislature and the people of Newfoundland are told that $68 million has been borrowed, additional, they find that most of it has been spent. They do not answer questions. Takes the questions that are given and· relies o:• infantilic and imbecilic semantics to try and twist out of them. Meanwhile • the Province spirals downward.

The situation that we have is mi tmfortunate situation. It should not pertain and cannot pertain any long,e:::-. We have to come to grips wi.th the financial position of this Province. They baa to be realistic attempts made to fund the debt. Yes, we will probably then, very, very shortly, if we did this in the proper manner - we would probably .have a department, which unfortunately as a result of the action of the Government over the past few years, will be the top department by way of expenditure. There should be mor~ provided with respect to sinking funds to repay the debt of this Province.

It is a crippling situation. It is one that cannot go on anymore. I do not feel -- I have heard from time to time, people in this Province or people on the Opposition siae, over the years - there has 12:'9

April 15th., 1971 Tape no. 272 Page 5 Mr. Marshall. been attempts made to bully them, because they talked about the fiscal affairs of this Province. Do not dare say a, band c, because the people in New York will hear you. Well I say this that the Government of this Province have our financial affairs in such a condition and in such a ~it.ll:;;.::io1 .. that good, constructive criticism will cause them not to enter into arrangements with the Government in the future, well this is an indictment of the Government itself.

Unless this Government can come to grips with itself and in its few remaining months, when it is going to have to account to the people of this Province. - each day is precious. The situation is argent, vhen you have $68 million extra _spent; no_budgetary control whatsoever; no attempt to bring in proper budgetary control; monies borrowed in the Cabinet Room; monies taken like little children; spent around the place for the purpose of their OWD political gain; for the purposes of their own piitical perpetration and power. When we have that situation, we have a very serious financial &ituatton occurring.

I hear the hon. the Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation talking from time to time about lawyers. Too bad he does not know imre about the law. Because 1£ he knew more about the law, Mr. Speaker, he would not have been a party to that crime in 1966. He would have known that on a contract, it is not a contract until it is signed. H ' a. Ha! Anyway, Mr. Speaker, the situation with respect to our budgetary control, with respect to our financial resources is alarming. It is very, very alarming.

Unless there are realistic attempts made by this Government ini the next budget which comes before this House 7- • Heaven knows what is going to happen. I would have no hesitation whatsoever, Mr. Speaker, in supporting completely each and every word that is contained in the non-confidence-motion of the hon. the .. ber for St. John's West. MR.. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I 'vas hoping that I would ~e given the O?portunity today to speak without the interruptions from the hon. minister of personal publicity. 1280

April 15th., 1971 Tape no. 272 Page 6 MR. REARY: Am I the one you mean? Am I the one you mean? MB.. EARLE: No, I would prefer that the hon. minister stay and go to sleep, because he is quite decorative. MR. NEARY: Fair enough. and I guarantee you will be uninterrupted. MR. EARLE: He is quite decorative today. MR. NEARY: Wake me up •• MR. EARLE: He inspires me tremendously from the other side, but unfortunately this minister of personal publicity,which I have rechristianed him, is probably quite a young man, although he is beginning to look older under the strain over there.

He baa yet to mature , so if he sleeps well in this Chamber and does not be interfered with too much by speeches such as mine, he uy look a lot •• Is that so? MR. BEARY: _MR.. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, this is all, good clean fun, I presume. but still one aust remember or recall the fact that we are being paid to serw the people in this Bouse. (This is exactly what I am referring to). If the hon. member would keep quiet·. and let us get on with the business. w might be able to give the public value for their money. Unfortunatcaly, the public expect something to come from this Bouse, except trash. Apparently, Mr.

Speaker, I have touched on a sore poiftt with the hon. 111inister. Perhaps he will subside into sleep, but anyhow let him gain his personal publicity by other means. Perhaps he could talk a little lllOre about the boys and girls sometime and get his name in the paper. MR.. NEARY: What about the fish merchants? MR. EARLE: Yes that is quite a good thing. This is always a good one to rehash over and over again. Mr. Speak.er, in supporting this motion, I think that s0111ething is necessary by way of a prelude in the way in which motions of this aort develop and why they develop.

It is quite obvious that the history of this Gove?1_U11ent, the performance of this Government over the put twenty-two years~a.s previous speakers have pointed out, has been so remiss in ao many instances that it demands a motion of this type to be brought before 12~1

'' April 15th•. 1971 'rap• DO 272 Page 7 Kr. Earle. the Houae. I ehould lib to com up to more recent eveqts which are fresher 1D people 1 1 ainds and which• I think, vould clarify for them for once acl for all the necenity of conde••ti011 of this Gqve~t and ita lack of attention to adequate illpro'VUIIBllt of the public aenicea. If I •Y refer for a aillute to~ development conference which vu held on the "f1_rat, NCODCI mcl tbird days of !ebruaJY, ·,·- . 12[!2

"; = April 15th. 1971 Tape 273 PK - 1 MR. EARLE: ll'irst of all the pre-announceme11.t;· of this conference where to the effect that sevaaal ministers had gone to Ottawa. They received a very good reception there and the Premier and his group returned elated that this was going to be a tremendous conference, which would bring forth some surprising results and some surprising benefits to our people anc that Ottawa had agreed to all of this.

Well that may or 1114,Y not be so, but it did not take many remarks by two of the Federal ministers who were there at the confe~enae, in the persons of the Minister of Transport and the Minister responsible for DREE.to set that thing straight, because neither of these gentlemen were obviously prepared to make any commitment whatsoever on the part of Ottawa at that conference. And, I think, it was a tremendous letdown for the Provincial Government after all the built up it had. had. In spite of that the conference proceeded and while my hon. friend the member for St.

John's West insists on calling it a "Disarmament Conference,•· I do not think he has got his terms quite right. I do not think the terms are quite right because it did not disarm the people,from all tha·t I have heard since;armed them, very, very strongly indeed. Because this conference went down with such a resounding plop that the people are armed to _expect almost anything this year. The comments that t have heard from all over the· Province, Mr.

Speaker, about that particular conference,reflee~ anything but credit to those -who promoted it, and certaiDly to those who ps.rtir..ipated in it, and gave such wild announce1B1ts and such wild statements that it is quite beyond the comprehension of people to believe or feel that such announcements were realistic and would be borne out by fact. So. while my friend.the hon. member for St. John's West,insists on calling it a "Disarmament Conference," I think that I. would perfer to christen that conference ''Our Christmas of 1971." Christmas came exceptionally early this year.

The Government created a new date for Christmas, because it was just a ~ive-away,for all the goodies were presented to the people. And so they need not expect another Christmas in 1971. they already had one. _..::.:.-· 12[;3 ,.

April 15th. 1971 Tape 273 PK - 2 MR. NOLAlf: Are you expecting the end of the world? MR. EARLE: No, we will celebrate that by another occasion later on which will be really10rth celebrating in this coming year. However, in the conference which I have refe-rred,,there were fifty­ eight point~reiterated from previous Liberal propagenda bulletins, which have been issued on previous elections and there were thirty-three new items Wrought into this.

Unfortunately the new items which were enumerated were rather insignificant, not of any great lasting importance or of any RD&t benefit to the peo~le of this Province. r will go as far as to say that- several of them have good potential but will take a long, long time to work out, and are not something that art' going to 'bring immediate results.

I would like to refer particularly to the Rural Development Associations and the encouragement of these associations~ ~bat,I agree,is a good plank for any Government because it is moat certainly necessary and essential that the people throughout this Province be awakened to the need of helping themselves and not depending so entirely upon Government. Now, I think the plan is good. I think the plan is excellent.

But •av it 1a to be carried out is perhaps another matter and opens up aome suspicion, because during the Easter Holidays some of our bretnem were in sunny climes, I was on the south-:coast .in 1.r.y district, and I get the feeling that the development of these associations is quickly turning into a political or getting a political tinge, because.whether it is intentional or otherwise, what is happening in all of these places, the people become enthused when some visitors fr0111 Government dep~rtments cone down and see them.

They discuss plans which on the surface are excellent and sort of thing that should be encouraged in any place. But, th~ the people react immediately,from what I had heard,by saying, '"'811, this is the year to get it boys. This is the year, we have just got to ask for it and it will be passed out." And I have heard in numerous placed where these c0111111ittees have met,vith the discussions among the people 12£4

April 15th. 1971 Tape 273 PK - 3 MR. EARLE: a few days afterwards u, we must ask for this, we must ask for that, and we, must ask for the other thing. And, if it is only going to be a matter of encouraging the people to ask for things in the vain hope that they will get it, and perhaps with some vain promises that they axe going to get them this is pure and simply partisan politics. Because the people again 'rill be led down this this interminable nrden path of greater expectations with no rainbow or pot of gold at the end of that rainbow.

And this is what these development associations are unfortanately developing into. Now, if this thing is to work, and if it is to accomplish what I hope it intended to accomplish, they should.as nearly as possible, be divorced CfJIIJ)letely from politics. They had a poor birth because the Development Conference was so obviously partisan politically that this in tum automatically gave these development groups a tinge of partisan politics.

Now, I would hope that over the months to come, and this,indeed in a year.this there is a vain hope, that that trend could be reversed and that the development or self-help groups will indeed be self-help groups and will not be encouraged in any way just to think that this is just another political handout and something they have only to ask for and receive.

I think at the conference itself, when the Premier used such words .. ''Tba aky is the limit"• as this sets the tone for the whole thing • And when you start talking like that in public before a large conference and it is repeated and repeated over the air and on the airways, this gives the people who are listening and all the people throu~hout the Province "it the idea that~is the land of goodies and there is no end to what they may demand •. I would like ~o refer just for a moment to that conference again, on the particular aspect of highways.

The hon. ~..1nister 1at the conference, I a aorey he has ateped o~t, but his opening statement at the conference .:::.-.~: vu indeed a laudatory and a very. very proper statement. Highway development 12fJ5

April 15th. 1971 Tape 273 PK - 4 MR. EARLE: is a vital necessity to economic development, in all of its aspects. And this is why the construction, reconstruction and paving of our highways is such a very important item to consider. One thing is certain,withoct an adequate highway system, we can forget economic development o~ any other kind of development. Well, I do not think that aay member who is sane or sensible will disagree with a statement such as that. Because we have lacked so fundamentally in parts of this Province a gogd•,highway system, and I refer particularly, of course, to the

section of the country with which I am now most familiar and that is the south coast. And I have always supported my friend from the ajoining district of Hermitage in his demands for greater improvements to the highways system in that area, because 1while I am repeating myself in what I have said in previous sessions of this House, it is so _blatantly obvious that on the south coast of this Province,where there is the only area where you can consistently year in and year out have open ports all the year around. No ice problem, No shipping problem: And excellent harboure and where you have in areas a..winter fishery, where there is the least welfare drawn down in any

section of this Province, and where these people were some of the fonnost and strongest supports of Confe~eration and voted almost unamimously for it and they were very, very strong in the support of this getting the benefits of it for Newfoundland. That coast has,in my opinion, some sections of it in particular, suffered the most devastating and utter neglect ofaeny part of Newfoundland. And now helately_after twenty-two years, efforts are beini made to brin~ this up to a par with other sections of the country.

I have heard time and time again statements made that, well this just could not be done on the south coast,the terrain is too rough, the hills are too high~, the rocks are too hard, the inlets are too deep, all the excuses that can be thou~ht of why roads could not simply be built in that area. This is utter nonsense. Anyone has only to go down around the Clarenville area or down the Baie Verte Peninsul~ or down other sections of the cotmtry where roads have been built 12£;6

April 15th. 1971 Tape 273 PK - 5 MR. EARLE: the territoey is equally as bad. as equally as difficult, and is equally as expensive to build roads in these areas.

And I cannot for the very life of me understand why it has not been the policy of this Government over the years to make a circle of this Island. to give it a proper base, to give it a road connection across the south coast, the most direct drive to the mainland and the most directly connectin~ up all that strong,independent area down there,where the people only needed a little more encouragement, a few more facilities and.they will increase their already strong independence from welfare and other degrading experiences which are so prevelant in so many parts of the Province. AN. BON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

EARLE: -I feel, Mr. Speaker, that those who wi.sh to hear me are listening and probably listening to me very intently, I am not at all dismayed by the fact that some people must have a rest. So I am quite prepared to go on. I think - MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR.. EARLE: I think I have a very attentive audience, and I am not speaking ..-mat the Motion, Mr. Speaker, I am ~peaking very strongly in favour of it, because I am pointing out in this one area alone, where there has been neglect in the development of facilities for a great segment of the people of our Island.

And, if this does not bear out the provision of this Motion, "adequately maintain and improve the .public services,"! would like to know what does? This is the point I am talking on_at tha moment, lmd I am talking about one particular

section of the Province, which most certainly i.i obvious to everybody that knows that area, Just how that has been neglected over the years. Therefore, in referring to the hon. }tinister of Highways and his announcement during the Development Conference, I think the most dismaying aspect of it was the fact that, this of all the announcements that were made at the conference was so blatantly partisan political, the little bits of 12e1 .

April 15th. 1971 Tape 2Jj PK - 6 MR. EARLE: road, the mile here the aro miles there, the five miles somewhere else, the bit of pavement here, the reconstruction there, &nd spread all over the map was nothing more or less than just vote catchers.

His whole statement at the opening of the conference was destroyed by the fact that it was then laid out in this manner and of course at the conference itself the most dismaying, and disgu~ting thing happened insofar as this minister in particular, the other ministers where not much better, but he had so much to relate there that he got a bit tongue-tied, He could not remember all these items, he had so many goodies to give away that he stumbled and stuck and the Premier kept nudging, do not forget this, do not forget ~bat, say that. repeat this, and this was so obvious over the T.V, that the people around the country where laughing their heads off.

I have heard so many times, in fact, one Newfoundlander with a very good sense of humour, and Newfoundlanders are noted for this, who vu sitting next to me in that hall, when this thing became so obviously confused and foolish, he nudged me and said, " Mr.,old Joey forgot to wind that fellow up this morning." Well, this just explains - MR.. ROWE • F • W. He was a good Liberal. MR.. EARLE: He was a good Liberal. MR.. ROWE, F.W. Inaudible. HR. EARLE: I had a few Liberals sitting around me, some fellows who were former Liberals. and some people who have seen the ' light.

There are some people who have seen the .light. AN RON. MEMBER: Inaudible. HR. EARLE: Anyhov, Mr. Speaker, just to get off of that subject for a 1110111ent, I think AN HON. MEMBER: It really bumed you up though. MR. EARLE: No, this does not bum me up at all. In fact, when the public begin to feel this way about a Government, this is where this particular Resolution is driving h~. This is where the people themselves do not have to be told, they realize the foGlishness that has gone on. They realize the foolishness that is still going on, and this is what some 1283

April 15th. 1971 Tape 27! PK - 7 MR. EARLE: people are going to find out within a few months, very, very clearly indeed. I ay be getting on thin ice, if I refer to the Auditor General's Report. But, I will only refer to it briefly . , if I may. Because this comes before a Select Committee of the House, and I only hope that Select Committee will be pemitted to do its work properly. Because this is one of the 1110st valuable and far-reaching efforts which this House have been ucceSBful in doing in recent years. It is sometlaing which . pertains in practically in all other Houses of Parliament.

It is an excellent safeguard. It is something that the Opposition has been asking for, for years, and now.if this Committee is ~ermitted to do its work properly and to make its Report properly.this should be of invaluable service to this Province. It is rather strange that this very Resolution in the same wording which was passed yesterday was proposed last year by the Minister of Finance. But, 12E9

· ~ril 15, 1971, Tape 274, Page 1 - apb MR. EARLE: Yet it was not put through. MR. CALLAHAN: It was obstruction from the other aide. MR. EARLE: It was a question. ' I just wonder why it was not voted on lut year, and it was voted for this year. AN HON. MEMBER: It was not brought before the House. MR. EARLE: It did not come before the Howse? Well, vhy was it not before the Bouse last year? Let us stop and think a minute. There are some very touchy things in the Auditor General's report of last year. , There were s0111e things that did not bear investigating. This year's report is much milder.

Very 1111.1ch milder, but 1.-,at year there was the scandal of the Atlantic Brewery. Thia thing never came to proper light in this Bouse last year. Tbe Select Committee could have looked much deeper into that, but a Select Committee was not appointed. There were many other things in last year's report that did not come to light for very good reason. This year it is not quite so stiff, so perhpas a Select Committee will go on. But, if that Select Committee does its job,•tr.

Speakar, and does it properly, the Auditor General's Department is such an all enc:ompused thing, a department which literally sticks its nose into every operation of the Government, that they wili-have the opportunity in that Committee to ask all the questions they want, and all the most delvil!-8 questions. P'or instance, it is not up to me to direct the comm:lttee. They will do, ! do not know who is going to bl a membe·r of the C01111111ttee, but the Auditor General has hilnself complained time after time of lack of staff to do his work.

I think one of the first questions which should be asked by the committee ia the extent or scope of the Auditor General's work, because, to the best of my knowl~dge and memory on this, there were certain operations of the Government which the Auditor General did not have time nor staff to properly investigate, I think particularly the operations of Crown Corporations. We have asked the question in the Houae on several occasions.

We asked it last year ad nauaeu, ' we have asked it• couple of times this year, but vhan the great discussion was on about the oil refinery, I made the usuranca, because I knew from fint hand knowledge that there was a team of auditors sent to Hew York to find out hov our first $5 million was spent, the $5 million advanced. We never did get the answer as to what the auditor's report said on that, or if indeed, there vu an 12~0

April 15, 1971, rape 274, Page 2 -- apb audit, or if the auditors had been permitted to do their work. Thia 1a public money. Whether it is covered up in Crown Corporations or where it is, this is the public's money, the money of the people of Newfoundland that was advanced to this particular concern. The people of Newfoundland are entitled to kno,~· just how that 1110ney vae spent and if it was properly accounted for, but we have not up to this 1110ment received that answer.

Then of course, to make the situation even more ridiculous, even more comical, such a pantomine as we saw last fall on T.V. where the $5 million vu passed back, ,'!nd .now we find that Governor's Special Warrant& for $27 million bu been requested, for this very self same thing. The total amount is supposed to be $25 million. Already it is $27 million, and every indication is that it will go considerably higher. So, thi $5 million that was passed back has gone into one pocket and out the other. It served its purpose, it gave a nice little show at the time.

It possibly fooled some people into thinking that this waa coming back to the Province right away, but _ th:ls ia the sort of thing which 1a absolute deceit and camouflage and everything else. I do not know words hardly strong enough to use for it. This 1a the kind of thing which indicates that the behaviour of the Government in its financial dealings leaves so much to question that one is aghast as to where to draw the line. This is not presenting to the people the true picture, it is just maneuvering, maneuvering, maneuvering for political purposes all the time.

This I think is what has disgusted so many of us so many, many· times • On the matter of improvement to the public services, and thi is a pretty wide field, public services inlcude everything which vill enable our poeple to live better lives. One of the large groups in the Province.which to my mind has suffered from lack of real public services.has been the fishenien.

Here again, I have said this before, but it bears repeating in the Houae, the facilities which ware built in many cues in Commiaion of Govenunent days for the fishermen of Newfoundland have been since that time consistently neglected ~. by this Government, to the po:f;nt that many harbours and many amll coves and so on are no longer suitable for the operations of fishing boats and fishing 12~1

April 15, · 1971, T~e 274, Pagel - apb crafts. I know of places on the south coast where sea walls, retaining wall• and so on have just been allowed to disintegrate. Breakwaters have gone, and it is literally not safe for fishing craft to operate from these harbours. The poeple have requested time and time again that attention be given to these particular phrases. The thing falls on deaf ears. The plea is that - the statement is that this is a Federal Government responsibility, and not the Provincial Government's business.

Be that as it may, perhaps it ill a Federal responsibility, I do not know, but if the Government of thi• Province is interested in the people of this Provi.nce, it keepa hammering on the Federal Government's door until it gets essential worka done. This is one cue that I know of with.first hand information. I have seen it so many times that this has not been done, there has been no follow-up on thia and no persistence that theae works be carried out. The plan in the development conference about the boat depota and so on is good. I congratulate the Government on it.

I think it 1a an excellat idea, but here again, the proof of the pudding will lie in the · eating and ve Yill see what develops in this, because, I think ve can be forgiven if we look back to the 1966 manifesto and see things of this nature announced which were never carried au.t. Will theae suffer the aame fate or will they notT Thia ia the question which the p~ple have to ask themselves, and this is the sort of question that toclay the people are asking them11elves. They are doubting Thomases.

There is more doubt in Newfoundland today vlth good reason than there baa ever been in the long history of this Province. In fact, there 111118t be doubt because many of the projects which have been announced cannot be carried out in the short space of time that has been indicated that they will. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I am just atopping for a moment to let the coaveraatiou go on because, •••••••• AN BON. MEMBER,: (Inaudible) MR. EARLE: Actually, my next item which I wanted to aention will i,robably arouse one minister froa --hia slumber, so, I should be prepared for the worst.

The Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation, of course, he 12n2

April 15, 1971, Tape 274, Page 4 - apb continually loses no opportunity to state that former ministers. I suppose that includes the present Minister of Health. but two preceding_ ministers before himself must have been awful dumb bunnies because they did nothiQg. Perhaps he might exempt the Minister of Health because he is a colleague, but at least the one before that,which is myself ,certainly did nothing at all. This is quite obvious, so, so obvious that it needs no comment at all.

T'~e only thing that this minister did not do to keep the services of the Department functioning properly, and not disrupt it, was that he under ~o circumstances at any time, sought out of the operations of that department personal publicity which would upset the whole operations of the department. MR. NEARY: The hon. member went down,.locked himself in, put a dome around the office and did nothing. _ MR. EARLE: Yes, I spent the whole time in that department, locked in my desk DOt doing anything. MR. NEARY: day long. MR. EARLE: MR. NEARY: MR.

EARLE: No clients allowed to come in to see him, locked in the office all Of course the hon. minister has only to ask hi!! staff. The hon. minister has asked, do not worry. The hon. minister has asked his staff, and the 'ri.on. mi:;.i.ister ti,as probably cowed his staff, and the hon. minister ••••• MR. NEARY: The hon. member never had an original idea, all he did was keep his seat warm while he was there. He did not earn his pay. MR. EARLE: I suppose I can claim some gratitude, because the seat was probably warm enough for the hot pants of the hon. minister when he sat Jown.

This is all right, he is one of the modern generation so he needs the seat heated up for him. But, believe me, the seat I heated up is not half as hot as the seat that is being heated up for him at present. He will learn all about hot seats in a few months time. The hon. gentleman is becoming very worrie~ indeed and so are ' many of his colleagues because, there is to be a hot seat pt·epared and the hot seat will not be over there. Perhaps the seats on this side '1o7ill also feel hoi: w,1en he gets in them. I think perhaps the seat that I am sitting in now, the hon. member may 12S'

April 15, 1971, Tape 274, fage 5 - apb have the good luck if he is elected to occupy it. Perhpas he will find this one hot also. I do not think he is even going to get that far, so, we will see what haf:pens. In trying to divert me from a discussion of some of the points of that department •••• MR. NEARY: The hon. member invited it. MR . EARLE: The hon. member relishes it. The hon. "member loves it. Would you please carry on, he enjoys this sort of thing. In fact, the rebuttals I think are worthy of the comment. MR . CHALKER: (Inaudible) MR. EARLE: Ah well! the hon.

Minister of Public works who has no sense of humour •••••••• May I carry on Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Noel): Order Please, we have just seen a demonstration of the way this House carries on business. We do it properly now for a change. MR. EARLE: I think I was on the Department of Social Services at this particular point. There is not too IIDlCh I want to comment on inspite of the minister's obvious agitation. I do not make such barbed comments about his department as he made about it when I was there, but still, that is more or less a matter of training I suppose. A man is either a gentleman or he is not.

One point which is becoming increasingly obvious to the people of this Province, is that the hon. Minister of Welfare can do what he liku. MR; NEARY: Social Services. MR. EARLE: Social Services, I beg your pardon. MR. NEARY: You are talking about the old days, when ••••• MR. EARLE: That is all right, well, the same thing under another name. Roses smell just as sweet by any other name·~ However, the hon. minister has announced recently some increases in assistance to certain cases and so on. This is good, and.it is overdue. It is a pity they cannot be further increased. I agree with his action in this connection.

Unfortunately, what is happenin~ in this Province, which is partially being brought about, the exhorbitant debt that this Province is under, an ever increasing debt, is that the cost of living is escalating to the point that the advances that these people get. and all

April 15, 1971, Tape 274, Page 6 - apb other people in the increases in salaries and so on, that are of no benefit to them. In fact. what increases they get are eaten up before they ever receive them. This is the complaint that I hear time after time, place after place. and so on and so on. The hon. member has no qualms whatsoever about merchants. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. EARLE: I was associated with the mercantile life of the country for some ·:.:ime, and I think that the record which I could produce would not cause the hon. minister any loss of sleep.

I am quite sure that the profit picture in that thing, and the losses that were incurred were quite equivalant to any hardships that he may have understood or undertaken in his earlier days. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) • EARLE: No, but I do resent Mr. Speaker. nonsense from those who know nothing about what they are talking about, and this is obvious. To C0