Volume XL Thursday ~,.._ .... ~~·:·. ~· .~ ~ ~ ~ "" .. II Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas ,_ :•- -.......~~!'tc Number 62 23 June 1988 . f')

The House met at 2:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. DOYI .. f: : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPrAKER: The han. the M.i n i. s +:. c,~ r· of Transpor·tation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: Mr·.

Speaker, hon. members oVE!r the last couple of weeks have been asking the value of certain contract.s on projects tJJe have already announced over the last few weeks and the name of the contractors, so: I am pleased to announce to the Honourable House of Assembly today, a list of six projects valued f'lt $5,784-,477.33 for wh-Lch contracts have bee!n awarded by my department under the $40 million capital roads program. Projects awarded are as follows: Awarded to Penny Construction Limited for· paving Route No. 73, NetJJ Harbour· 1~.owards Tilton, approximately 4 kilometres.

Total valuE:~ of thE:1 project i.s $404,839 and the scheduled completion date is September 30, 1988. AwardE!d to Shannon Construction Limited for paving 5.6 kilometres of Route No. 3 31 from Horwood intersection towards Route No. 34-0, paving 3. 5 kilometrE!S of Route No. 335, upgrading and paving the intersection of Route No. 331 and Route No. 340, paving L3496 June 23, 1988 Vol XL 5.2 kilometres of and miscellaneous Route No . 34-0 and value of the $1,54-2,759.20 and completion date ts 1988. Route No. 344- recapping of 34-3.

Total project is thE! scheduled SepternbE:1r 30, Awarde!d to Concord Paving L.imi ted for· 1Jpgrad".ing and paving of approximately 3 kilometres of I n d i cHl Me a l I. i m1 , 1. . 3 k :i 1 om e t r e s of roads in Logy Bay and Outer CoVE!r' are:1a, 3 kilometres of r·oads in Pouch Cove and Shoe Cove area clncl paving 0.65 kJJ.ornetr·es in Torbay and the total value of the project i.s $694,360 and the scheduled completion date on that one is SE:1ptc->.mber· 30, 1988, as well.

Au.Jarded to Lundrigans Limited for upgrading and paving of 5.4 kilometres of Route No. 391, Harry • s Harbour Road and recapping 1.6 kilomet ·.res of Route No. 391 t.o King•s Point, on Route 391-10 to Rattling Brook. The total value of the project is $560,337.60 and the scheduled completion date is the end of September.

Awarded to Penny Paving for paving approxi.mately 11..5 kilometres of Route No. 352 Cottrell 1 s Cove Road and approx·i.ma te 1 y 13. 0 k i l.ornE:~ tres of Route No. 350 Leading Tickles Road and recons l:ruci:i.on and paving of approximately 1. 8 kilomE!tres of Route No. 350 and Commonu.Jealth Drive in BotlJJood, and total value of the project i.s $1,715,4-53. The scheduled completion date is the end of September as well.

Awarded to Penney Construction Limited for paving three sections of Route No . 60 Upper Gullies to KelligretJ..Js, 3. 5 kilometers through Holyrood South, 1 kjlometer Harbour Main to Conception Harbour, and 5.4 kilometers, an Avondale access road from the No. 62 R3496

Trans-Canada kilometers Highu.Jay, and 1. S and Avondale access r·oad Fr·om 'inb:~rsection u.Ji.th Roulr:• No. 60, 1. 6 kiJ.ometers. The total value of the project $865,726. The scheduled completion is July 31, 1988. Mr. Speaker, thE! abovE• projects represent approximately 14 per cent of the $40 million program and ove:~r thE! coming days and weeks I will be announcing the awarding of the contracts for the remainder of t:he pr·ogram. MR. SIMMONS: Mr·. SpeakE!r, MR. SPEAKER: nw hon. the lTIE!rnber for Fortune ~ HEH'Ifli·ldge. MR. SIMMONS: Min.

SpeakE!r, on behalf of the 0 F f ·i. c i a 1 0 p p o s oi. t t o n IAJ (o~ IAJ C:! J. c o 1n r~ t. h c~ annotHIC(!HIE~nt, or any announceme:~nt, IAJ h i. c h l:. a l. k s a b o u i:. J m p r o IJ i. n g r o a cl s in -Lh:i.s Province. Hou.JE~VE:H', sorne roads i.H'e VE!ry noticeabl~O! by thEdr absencE' and I want to refer to one road in particular. It may ITIE!an much of serious consequences to certain mernbE!rs on the opposite sidE! but this is an important issue. It affects thE! HE:'rrnitage --Seal Cove road.

ThE! minister wilJ. be at.uare that he met with two delegations from those communities, one from Seal Cove and a separate delegation from Hermitage Gaultois. As he will be aware also, thE!Se d(-:!lE~gations tH'e back together as one delegation today and, r beLi.elJE:', al1 of thmn iH'("! in the galle~y at the moment. MR. l'OBIN: Did you tell them you w0re aga.inst paving the road to Coombs Cove? L3497 June 23, 1988 Vol XL MR. SIMMONS: I told the delegation this morning T am very much in favour of paving the road to Coombs Cove. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SIMMONS: They are not here to trade-off one group against another. They are here today, Mr. Speaker, because they have a need. MR. PEACH: Why do you not tell the truth? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: T kno1.u 1-:h(~ gentl("!man ·is st:.i.ll hurting on Port aux Basques for IAJhdi. hP. goofed up on l:herE~, but that. is another issue. They did ask rne, Mr. SpE~i'lkE!r, aboul·.: Uw R~~d Harbour situation. I wi.lJ. talk t.o him i:1b011l that lat.:E!r. Th!'\l-:. 'is another· onE!, al togethE!r, he s houJ d i'l.riSIAJE!r for. Mr. Speaker, I want to taJ.k to thE· Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Doyle) through you, Sir. The minister u.dlJ. be aware thoSE! bAJO delegations carne. They have come back again today. They have spent most of the morning in the office.

I appr·eciate, and i:.hey appreciat~e, the fact that hE! u.Jas i('l cab'in(.:.t, but a request has beE!n put. to hirn and we hope thE· minister will find the time, following Question Period today, to t.c\kE~ a feu.J rnornE~nts u.Jith those people to put to him their very deC:!p conce1nn, t~heir flnustr·at.'ion, over the failure of thE' ministe•r' to foll.o!AJ th1nough on a corruntt.ITH"!t'l'l: he made to them, that if there 1.1.Jas a new secondary ro!'\ds agreement or an addition to one, they could expect to be part of it. No. 62 R 3 4.9 7

They remember that. They remember it very distinctly. But this is not the place to deal with it i.n any detail. So I would ask the minister to take it under advisement u.dt.h a view to rnee!ting that group people who came last night, after se:wen or eight hours clriv:i.ng, I"O St . John's for the express purpose of seeing him. They intend to see him, by the way, before they leauc here, supposing it takes a day or a week . Thank you, Mr . Speaker . SOME HON. MFMBERS: He:~ar, hear! MR. FENWICK : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Menihek . MR. FENWrCK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR.

LONG : Hear, hear! Welcome back! MR. FENWICK : I would like to thank my caucus for welcoming me bHck as well . Mr. Speaker·, T. am pleased nothing has changed in the so I have been gone, that still involved in the same LJ.Jhat should I call partisan approach to the of publi.c money. to see week or u..te <'tre kind of ·i. t? spending Mr. Speaker, I recall back in the late 1940s in the first federal election held hE.~re, when Billy Brown, I believe, was running in St. John's West or whatever the equivalent of the district or the riding was at the time. At the time Joey Smallwood was opposing him.

L3498 June 23, 1988 Vol XL He told the people in a public meeting, 'I am sitting on the• patronage barrel . I am the guy who controls iL If you vote for B-i.l.J.y Brot~o.m, you dre not goJ.ng to get anything. ' Well, Mr . Speaker, nothing has really changed . We cl.re sE:~ei.ng the same kind of thing . I saw it back ln 1.933 u.Jhcn T. ran i.n Ter·ra Nova, when the provincial government sr.tid, 'We can pa1Je your road~ ; to Bunyan's Cove and so on, therefore! you should lJOle for us.' I think the member for Fogo was there as Wt::!ll .wd sau.J t.he same thing.

It was very effective and, as a resull, the P.C. nominee won that time. It was also used in Windsor Buchans, I would venture to say. People were told that if they elected the P.C. candidate, they would be able to get some roads built and so on. It was not as effective, although I suggest it did cut into the Leader of the official Opposition's majority. Mr. Speaker, the only comment I have to make on it is, this is the peoples' money that we raise by taxes either here or federalJ.y. We have an obligation to sE:~nd it where it ·i.s rnos t. needl-:~d.

To say that it is a good member for gett:lng more-?. money for his district or it is a poor member because none .i.s pttt . in his district is the same kind of nonsense we haue been seeing since Confederation . Some day I hope it. The day we maybe we will run a proper, fair, manner. MR. LONG: Hear, hear! No. 62 we will outgrow do o u t g row i t • this ProvinCE! in and reasonable R3498

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPfAKER : rhe hon . Uw M·i n:lstc:~r for Car( ~~'r Development and Advanced Studies. MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I am very pleased today to announce the approval of 107 additional projects under The Private Sector Employment Program . SOME HON . MEMBE~S : Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS : These 107 projects involve a provincial contribution of $308,933, employin g 118 employ ee s and a total of $69,555 employing sixty-eight students. To dc1.l .:e, Mr. Speab,~r.

Uw totaJ. funds allocated under The Private Sec tor Fmp loyrnc:! nt Program amou n l~ to approximate] y $6 .02 million. As a resulL of 1-hJs funding, 2,323 jobs have been created, 723 of lAJ ~ri . c h c.' r e s tud e n 1.: p o s i. 1: l on s . I would like to take this opportunity to say, Mr. Speaker, that I have been extremely pleased L,.Ji th the results of this program . I feel confident that the 2,323 jobs that have been created through The Private Sector Employment Program are providing valuable training and work experience to indi viduals of this Province, particularly the 723 students involved. MR.

DECKER: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKE'R : The hon . t:.he member for the Strr~ ·i.t. : of BellE:' Isle . L3499 June 23, 1988 Vol XL MR. Or::CKER : $6.02 million, Mr . Speaker, translaLe s Jnto 2 ,123 jobs at a price of $2,582 per job, almost $2,600 per job . [ understand these jobs average about ten to twenty weeks out of a year . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . HODDER : You are misrepresenting again . MR. DECKER: Mr . Speaker, I understand that in any given time there is somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000 Newfoundlanders unemployed.

You can play with statistics all you like, but you ask any Newfoundlander out there who is unemployed and they can tell you i:\11Y ti .rne there i.s between 40,000 and 50,000 Newfoundlanders une:~mpl.oyc ,~d . Now, all that lhe hon . minister has to do is to come up with $104 m·lll·i on ctnd he can solve tbe unemployment problem in N(~IJJfoundl.and for · t<: •n or tiJJenty weeks, Mr. Speaker. Here is the stcl.ge you sti:\rted twenty weeks for· Quite a bargctin! MR . LONG : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : on $104 ten or milJ.ion. The hon . the member for St. John 1 s East. MR. LONG : Mr .

Speaker, the difficulty with +·.he announcement by the minister, as with other announce rne n t s , is it i.s impossible to rnake any sense of the program the way he presents these announcements. Obviously the program in certain areas has been qu :i.te successful . No. 62 R3499

I would ask the minister, as I have done before, if he could bring foru1cn··d some kind of coherent picture of the elements which have gone into making this program successful where it has been and perhaps where there might also be difficulties with it. For· instance, there has never been any cl.c~ar cr·i tc.;>r·i.a for hot!! anyom~ might receive approval or not under this program.

I noticed just briefly looking at one of the proj ec t.s announced, Lhe ~)ea rorest Plantation down in FerryJ.and, lAJhercc' thi'::H'e L"H'e t~d.r 1-:e<:Hl jobs, onl':~ would have to ask whE:'ther a big private competny l..ikl'::~ lhat i.s, in fact, the kind of business oper·at.i.on that t.he pr·ogram is targeted to. In a similar· way, we do not know whether there has been any criteria put out for a training component in these applications. Mr.

Speaker, finally I would say, in order to do a full assessment of the program, we should perhaps begin now to cut the program off where it is with the amount of money that has been spe!nt. One thing we would gain by that is not only some lime to do an assessment of the program, but freE:' up some other monies for areas in public se:~rlJ ict:~s dnd humetn serlJi.ces the government has refused to make money available for. One area I would suggest to the min·ister ·is trans·itional serui.ces for battered women in this Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Oral Questions L3500 June 23, 1988 Vol XL MR .

SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Doyle). When he was debating the resolution put to this House earlier by the han. member for Burgeo Bay d'Espoi.r (Mr. Gilbert) on the railway matter, he opposed the resolution, he said, and amongst other things he gave L h .i. s a s hi s r e c\ s o n f o r· do i n g i t . 11 The resolution cannot be acr::epl~.ed, Mr.

Speaker, becaUSE! it: caJ.ls for the abandonment of the principles that were fought for under the Terms of Union, and this gover·nrnE:~nt: w·i 11 not negotiate the rights accorded it, and accorded Newfouncll,:-\nd under those Terms of Union. 11 Now, Mr. Speaker, my question to the hon. minister· is in view of that stated position how could he approve of and support an agreement which said that the payments t.o be made under this railroad agreement "wi11 represent d meeting, to the satisfaction of Newfoundland, of Canada's constitutional obligations related to railways on the Island of Newfoundland 11 ?

Would he explain that to the House and to the people of Newfoundland? rliR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Trans por ·ta l:Lon. MR. DOYLE: Mr . Speaker, ·if I remember correctly, when that resoluU.on lAJas be i.ng debated I thi.nk on(:' of the principle items contained in the debat:.e on thE:~ resolution lAJas that of freight rate protection. We clearly stated that we were not prepared to bargain away freight rate protection, and we want.ed Newfoundland to be essentially No. 62 R3500

guaranteed that railway freight r "' t c~ s I t o I f r om a n d 1.11J i ·. h i n Net.ufoundland t.uo•dd be SE:1t on the Sdlne lc~1vul ns r(·:dl.IJJetY rates i.n Lhe M a r· .i t. t rn e p r o v i n c E:1 s .

I n t h i s pi'l.r·t"i.cul.al" Memorandum of Understanding tha ·t the Province has signed with the federal government, it has been made abundanlly cJ.e:1ar that Newfoundland will have freight rate protection, dnd that dire:1c tion has been given to CN to maintain freight rates on the inter·modal service that u.ri.11 be set up, that would be consistent with freight rates being chargE!d in the Maritime reg i o n .

That l.o~la s o n e of t h e principles that we were very concerned about, that if the railway in Newfoundland did shut down, that for clny intermodal service that was set up by Terr·RTrclnsport thE~r·e IJJoulrl be some guarantees that freight rates IAIO U 1 d be S Ed: C 0 n S i. s L (! 11 t W ·i. t. h t h 0 5 e in the Maritime region .

We have achieved thctt in the Memorandum of UndE:1rstanding and, as I indicated t:o Uw House a Ft~IJJ days i:'lgo, Uri .s is a top- notch agr·eE:!ment that. u.1e h a u C'! s "i. 9 n E' d IAJ i 1. h Uw fed e r C\ J. governmE:'IIt cHid (.:n <->. which will take t:hc~' PE:'opl.e oF N(~l.o~lfoundl.and inl.o the 21st Century with a good, effici.ent, trctnsportcttion system. MR. WELLS : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han . the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

WELLS: Does the minister agree that ClauSE! 10. ( 1) negotiates away Newfoundland's r·ights under the Terms of Union in exchange for the payment? Does he agree with that? MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the member for L3S01. J11m1 23, 1.988 ~Jol. XI . Transportation . MR. DOYLE: Which clctuse? MR. WELLS : Clause 10 .(1). MR. DOYLE : Well, I 1.1.1 L l.l hc:WE! to look at the Memorandum of Understanding. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Do you not know what is in it? MR. DOYLE: I do not know heart in the arE! quite a S pea k C:'t' . So I at 10.(1) . every number off by Memorandum. There few there, Mr. would have to look Mr.

Speaker, clause 10.(1) reads: ' rhe foregoing ar·rangements are offered herein by Canada as a c o 1 n p r e h c~1 n s ··i. lJ e t r a n s p o r· t a t i o n package intended to address the parties' concern to provi.de a full and effective transportation service for thP Island of Newfoundland f ollouli ng the closure of i.ht~ NeiAJfOIIncll ,:Hld Rdi liAJdY.

It . is offered in full satisfaction of Rll Candela's constitutional obligations related to railways on the rsl.t~ncl of Newfoundland, and Newfoundland acknowledges that these clrr·angE:Hnents are made for such a purpose, and accepts that when carried out and perfor·med in accordance with the provisions and intent of this Memorandum of Understanding, they will represent a meeting, to the satisfaction of Newfoundland of Canada's cons titut .ional obligations related to railways on the! IsJ.and of Newfoundland . ' Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I think we certainly have guarantees under lhat, r:\nd Rl.l. of the legal opinions that we have received on No. 62 R3501

it have indicated yes, we do have guarantees. MR. WELLS : A final supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : A final supplementary, the hon . the Leader of the Opposition. MR . WELLS : Does the minister now agree, having r~~ad it, that he has done, by this agreement, what he said on March 16 he woul.d not do? SOMr IWI\J . MEMfl F.: RS : Hear, lwar·! MR. SPFAKfR : Th~ hon. the M 'i. n i s t: <c' r· of Transportation . MR. DOYLE : No, Mr. Speaker . MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Gander . MR. BAKFR : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I would like to ask a question of the same minister.

It has to do, s u r p r i s i n g 1 y , lAd t h t h e s a 111 e:~ paragraph the minister just read. I know t:he minister· can reHd very easily but has difficulty under·stanrling, so T. tAd 11. po i.nt out to him that. it says here that this ts offen~cl by Canada r:~s <:~ coruprdten s i ve trans porta lion pr:lckage lo pr·olJ"i.de a f1tl.l. dnd effective transportation service. Ts the minist.E:~r aware that this 1neans thcd.: rw has Signed diAJr.ty t:.I"Hc' tn:.ight . to any other transportat:i .on agreenH::~nt unl- .il the yei:lr 200'1-? Is he aware of that? L3502 June 23, 1988 Vol XL MR.

SPEAKER : The hon . thP Minister · of Transportation. MR. DOYLE : No, Mr : Speaker . We all recognize, I beJ.jeve, the lil :t.le garne thdt hon. members are getting on with here . They are hur·t.ing V<:~ry badly. It is quite obvious by now to everyone in the ProlJince what the Opposition are attempting to do. They are o b IJ i o 11 s 1 y p l. r.t y -L n 9 t)(.;! r· y p o o r politics with the issue, Mr . Speake:~r. T h~1y rec'\ .1.-i.ze th<'lt this deal we have made with the federal !::JOIJE!rnmont i.s dn 11nbcl.ievabl.y good one, as I said, IAJhich takE!S Newfottndl.and i.nto the 21st Century.

We do have the protection Uti :\1 ·. IAH:' rt~qtt i r·e und.:~r this Memorandum of Understanding with respect to the freight rates. Insofar as the other Terms of Union are concerned, Mr·. Speaker·, Term 31 does not provide for the continuation r:lnd maintenance of the railway . It just simply states that Can add will take over the railway. There is no statement that Canada has to operate this railway in perpetuity and there was no possible way, Mr. Speaker, as I jndicated before, that the federal government could be bound to that particular clause .

Whnt we did have some concerns about, given the fact that there will now be a new intermodal freight rate service s e i: '·' p by T e r· raT ran s p or t , tJJi.'l s to have some guarantees that the FroJg ht : rc:l h~ s IAJOIIld b(o! s (.;! t and consistent with what is set in the Mar·i. U,,n(:~ n~gi.on. We hc_we that l.n the understanding that we have IAri .th Uw Ft:~dE!ra1 gover·nrnent :, and CN has been directed by the f(-?.clerd1 government to set fr·eight rates consistent with that policy . No. 62 R3502

MR . BAKER: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPFAKFR: A supplementary, rrwmbe:!r for· Gandc~r · MR. BnKFR : the han. the He can avotd the questton all he wi:lnt.s. 1 L'lsk h-i.m IJJhy di.d he siyn such an agreement, one whtch obvi .ously st.al..E!S that this is lhe only transportation money that 1.o~.Jill be e~vcl.·ilabl~~ up to t:he YE'clr 2004? Why dtd he dare sign a1JJay the rights of any future governments to ever negotiate another transportat.ion package for this ProvtncE!? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Min]ster of Transportation. MR. DOYLF:: : Mr . SpeakPr, Lhat is a bunch of hogiAJash .

Any dnd all. rnorl'i.Ps thai-·. have ber:~n madE:' available to 1\JE!WFoundl.:-:~nc:l 11nder ' thi.s ayr'ePJIWI'1i: are new monies ouer and above what. IJJO t~JOIJld bE:~ norm;~l.l.y rwgoi·.·i.al:·iny ·with the federa1. government under ERDA and other secondary roads programs. Mr . Speaker, I mtght add that this government had the foresight and the insight to have a reopener clr.wse in our· Memorandum of Understanding with the federal govr:H'nment-SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

DOYLE: -to ensure that objectives clearly federal government a c hi e v i n g w h a t IAJ E:~ all of the outlined by the with reipect to hope to achieve l..3 503 June 23, 1.988 Vol XI. under this agreement are kept . And, if the hun. gentleman opposite r.1nd his i t!t'lder had had that foresight back in the 1960s I All-:' IAJO Ill. d n 0 1:. h d V t' a S i. X t y ... f i V e year agreement on the Churchtll r·i.yhl: nOIAJ, Mr·. Spe;~kc~r . SOMF HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: ·rhere will be no more Churchill Falls agreements, Mr. Speaker. This gover·mnc-:>nt has ensured t:he future of Newfoundlanders.

We have signc-:'!d a good r·ailway deal, a good railway package for $800 million. It might be of interr-:!s t to han. members opposite to know thnt Pr·ince Edward Island ls now looking for a railway deal as well, which I believe involves in the neighborhood of $100 million. So, Mr. Speaker, this government is l:o be,~ appla11d~~d for what it has done for the people of 1\JE:'IAJfcJ~Jndl..uld. And no!-: only one particular area of the Province is g cd. n g {: o ~H~ s c-' r· u 0 d b y t h i. s agreement, but every stngle nook ~nd cr·anny in Ne1.\Jro11nrll and, from St .

John's to Port aux Basques, l\J o r 1: h E! r n P c,~ n i n s 1 1l. a t o t-.1-w ~:; o u t h Coast, West Coast, all of 1\lewfoundJ.,:'Ind l.t.d.l.J. bem~fi l frorn this agreement, a very, very good L'lgrE:~<:~mt~ n t. MR. FENWICK : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . om~ of the advant .age:~s of looking at this whole deal from 500 milE~s al.t.JdY i.s you cctn get a lAdder· No. 62 R3503

perspective on it, and you do not have to listen to all that is going on hc->.n · It SE::~e1ns to rne in 1ooktng at l.he par·ticular deal that the one area that is most har·d hit. is the tol.\Jn of Port aux Basques . They have, I think, put out a press release signifying that they arE• very unhappy . I believe the member· for LaPoile (Mr. Mitchell) has also indicated he feels Port aux Basques is hard-hit as well.

My question to the minister is this: Since they f(~ar· 1-:hc:~ r-_ thE:~ removal of the r·ailway wi 11 mean thdt "i.n f'·iue YC:~<''It'S i·:'i, f(l(:~ 1)-i_t•f:l.ir.IJ.l.lj no fr·(d.ght will corue through, and thai: the i.1npact ·. IAiil.J. be ,~ HI!H'e Lhdn just the:~ CN jobs that. arC:' bE:'ing c los f>. d o 11 t n o1.o~J, has 1: he rn -L n j_ st- . e r· or· this government done any kinds of s1:.udins to -Lndlcdh"! l.\Jhctl: i.hr:~ futur·e of Por't. aux Basques will be 1JJhl:'n Lhf:~ r·<.dll.\li'I.IJ i.s di.scontiniH:~d and a11 the other changes .in the modes of transpor·talion go .inl-:o effect? MR .

SPEAKER : The hon. the Minis t.C::~r of Transportation. MR. DOYLE : Mr . Speaker, I think we are all aware that there will be some effect upon the Port aux Basques and Bishop 1 s Falls areas in par·ti.cular· . This is IJJhy this government was so insistent on hewing, as par·t oF this clgreeJnC::~nt, a good community adjustment p a c k a g C::~ . M r· . S pea k e r , t h e r· e i. s- a community adjustment package of approximr'l.i":C!l.y <f;l5 rn:i.l.l'i.on l.o~Jh ·i.ch IJJi11 be shan~d bC::'tween Port aux BasquC:: ~S r-Hlrl Bishop Is fHl.l:; . Mr .

Sp~~akC::H', T 911«.-:~s:; l:he ruar ·ketplace :itself will determine . :JJ h a t: rn o d e s o f i-. r· a n s p o r· t. a 1·: :i. o n a r' l-:~ L3504 June 23, 1988 Vol XL going lo bo used, if commodities are going to camP to certain areas of the Provine ~ by water, into Corner Brook or St. John 1 s or other areas of Lhe Province. I guess · the marketplace dictates that, and that .is something that essentially we, as a government, have no control over. It should be pointed out as well that Terra-Transport is not l(~clving the Province, as some people seem to think, because of Lh Ls ra i.lway agre(~rnent.

ThE!Y are not leaving the Province. They are committed to setting up a good, efficient, intermodal S(:~r,Ji.ct~ and they are goi.ng after· the share of the marketplace that l. h l:' 1J l. o s t o lJ !:H' Hw l. a s t: F i. v e t o ten years. Mr. Speaker, a lot of that freight IJJi .l.J. si:i.l.l. b(~ rnou"ing through Port aux Basques, and, as I said, nobody knol.\JS what UH~ di.ctcllE!S of the marketplace IJJill be. Some of it will. undoubt edly be. going by water now that the railway is cloSE!d doiJJn. But we r·ecogniLe the problems that are there for places like Bi.shop 1 s Fi:llls and Por'l: aux Basques.

We will be keeping a very close E~Y(~! on -!:hose two partjcular communities and making sure t.hdt the community adjustment money is used wisely. TherE! will be a committE!e set up, ds c'l. rnatt.c=!r of fact, consist.J.ng of people from the provincial golJernrnc,~ni- ., LhE:~ f(>.d(~rd1 governmc~!nt and also the communities Hw m s C:' 1 v t~ s , 1-. o d d rn i. n i. s t e r· a n d t o make suggestions as to how the mont':~~ co11ld bl~ spent i.:o l.e sse n the impact upon the areas. I am surE:', Mr.

Speaker, that l.'i 1111::~ HH:~ o ffl~ d:. oF Uw close:~ of the railway will be less less upon those communities. over d OIJJrl and No . 62 R3504

MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A sup pl. e men tiH ' y , L he. hon. the member for Menihek . MR . FENWICK : Hy Ul ~! IAJ<:~Y, ·i.n 1-hi=''l: i.-l.l'lSlJ.JE:'r, I l..r.Ji.-l.S not s u r· ~~ :if t he mini s t e r s aid yes <H' n o I: h i.-1. l~ d 1'1 y s 1.: 1 J d :i. e:1 s h r.1 d b <~1 P. n done. Mi:.tybe in r'E:'ply to my s 1.1 p pl. e nt ~:1 n b:'l r y h E:~ rn i. g h 1: i. n c l. u d e that.

Assuming t.hal no study was done, t..r.Jould Lhc ~~ tnini st:er' gi .v~ c' us eith er hts best guess or his officials 1 be s t e s l: i m a t. e s o n l..r.J h a t t he long-te rm effect wilJ be on the community of Port dUX Basques? I am saying specifically Port aux Basques because my understanding is that the changes in intermodal traffic will mean that Port aux Basques itself will be most h a r' d- h 1 t .

The s u p p 1 em e n t a r y 1 s : If you do not have a study, then lJ.Jhat. lJ.Jas t:hE:' g11ess fr·om yourself or your officials lJ.Jhen you were putting tog e Uw r· t h i s p c:l c k d g E! on the impact on Port aux Basques, and how cJ-i d yo 'I COlli E:' up tAli . th th i.s $7 million? Why do you think it i. s uno 11 g h 1·: o d l.l. ~~ 'J i. d i~ E:~ t: h c~~ d a rnr:1 9 t~ that I E:~stimate would take about ei.ghL or· 1 ... ~:!n Lirnc ~1s as rn•tch money as U1<:tt? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Transportr.'lti.on . MR. DOYLF.:: Mr.

Speaker, to try and be a littlc~1 bit. rnorc->. spE:~cific about the study that the hon . gentleman r·efers to, I can indicate to him that this particular problem was studied at soute point. by the Intergovernmental Affairs people and people within my own department as well. It is L3505 June 23, 1988 Vol XL inevitable thdt will be some impact upon those tlJ.JO communities , but IAJE:' fE:1E!l, Mr . ::;p0 aker, thc.'lt. the long-term effect will be minimized bE!Ci:'IIIS(~ of l::hr:• cotnmuni ty adjustment packages that we have p 11·1 - -i n pl..~ c E! .

As T said , we r.1 r E• monitoring this situation in great deLA·il. l:o tHlSIIr<->. l:hat: lhe TIIOrlE!Y -.is spent wisely and that there probn.bl y Cr~n be some ot~wr indus try established in those two co rnrn11 n ·i. i.:i. e s Uh'l. t. ~u· e 1110 s +. a f f E~ c tc -:1 d by the agreement . Hopefull.y, Mr. Spe:~akt:1r, the l.ong ·-L(H'III impact t..r.d.ll be minimal. I do not have a cr ·ystal. br.'lll.. I do not know what, if any, wj 11 be the effect five or· ten ye:~ar·s clot..r.Jn the road .

I can assume that the effect will probably be:' minimal, given the fact that these communities have a community adjustment package that they can take advantage of. We will certdinly have to look at any and al.l problems that arise as a result of the railway shutdown . We will be quite vigilant indeE!d . The member for· Laf'oi .l.e i.s on top of the situation on a daily basis, corrring to lflf~ tAli t.h vor·i.ous pr·obl<~'ms that he feels might pop up in the .~n ~i.-1. OlJC:'t' l.:i.me . We t..r.Jill. do ali we can to address thal when it occurs . MR. FFNWICK: 11 Stlpplc ,~tnE !I'll· :ary, Mr· . Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A fi.na l suppl.~~rnentar·y . MR. FENWICK: As I understand, in the minister 1 s answer he inrli.cated that Intergovernmental Affairs had done some studi~~s on l:he effects of it . My final supplementary to the minister is th:is: If the Intergovernmental Affajrs Department has done the study and has produced some sort of document with estimates on it, would the minister be willing to table ir No. 62 R350S

this House the results of this s t u cl y I: o g i_ v 1::1 1 1 s a n i n d i. c R t i. o n o f the pr·oblE!ms they are facing so that we in Lhi .s House h.:W<'! SOIIIE:1 fee1.:ing on v.Jhether or not $7 million is enough to alleviate the incredible impact that will be suffered by l:he peopl~ ~ of the Southwest corner of the Province? MR. DOYLE : Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of T r· a n s p o r t a t l on . MR. DOYI E: Mr.

Sp1::1 a k<:H', I do no 1~. k nOIJ.J ·i. f there is any glossy documents that I can mdb~ i:lVA il.dbl.E:1 to l·.ht:! hon. member, except to say that we h ,,, v e s i-. 1 1 rl i. e d i . h <:1 p t' o b 1. ~~ rn i. n y t' <:1 r\ 1~. dE ·~t:ails, as I havE:' indicated to h i. In '" l. r· !::' ct cl y I d 11 d !J.H:' cH' (:1 h () p i. n g that t.he long ... tprrn impact upon thos<~ 1-.tJ.JO Ar'c~!c:lS v.d.ll. be:1 1ni.ni .rnal. and thcd .. t·he community adjustment package will. look dfter it, Mr. SpeakE:1r. MR . SIMr-10NS : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune - Her·rni tage. MR.

SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, a question to the s amE:1 min l s ter· who talked a urinu te ago about the reopener clause. I remind hirn there is another· famous reopener clause called Term 29 in the Terms of Union, And we dl.l know what a Tory Government did to t h d C p c3. t' t i. C I 11. d t' t' e 0 p E:1 n (:1 t' C 1 ct lJ S 8 . Mr·. SpeakE:'r, the $100 million IJ.Jhich 1~1a:; c\ddf~d on l:o UH:1 UW(l 1-l'ighways (.)gr'eE~mt::!l'lt has beE:1n a 11. o c d b ::1 d , c.~ s i'. h e rn :i. n :i :; l e r· I J.d. ll knotJ.J. I say to him, by tJ.Jay of q u E:1 s t i. on , 1~1h d l: o thE! r· mo n (~ y , j 11 s i ..

L3506 June 23, 1988 Vol XL to put this whole thing in some pE:H'spect·i.ve, C r'~.l'1 l:he mi.nister · access to provide funding for upgr·c\ding dnd prlving of those roads which were not addrE~ssed in the $ l 00 nri 11 i o i 1, or· :in t: he earljer announcements this year, such as the Hennitage - Seal Cove Road? What other money does the minister· for·esee he can access in this fiscal year to address proble>rns such as the Hermitage Seal Cove Road? MR. DOYLE: Mr· . Sped ker· . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. th(,~ Minister for Transportation. MR .

DOYLE : 1 1~10 11 l. d j 1 1st 1 i. k c,} i: o rna. k E:1 onE! correction, in what the hon . rnE:~Inl:)(,1r' Si'l 'i.d, bc~caiiS(:~ I IJ.Jollld not want the impression to go out that 1.1.H~ h ,:~, lJt:1 '" 1 1 o c C1 b:1 d a 1 l. o f t. h e E R D A monies. That is not true. UndE:'r lhE:1 Cc'lSh fl .OIA.) IJ.J(' COIIl.d dl.locate approximately $25 million this y E:1 c:~ r· . ·rhos c=! mo n -L e s c:l r· <:1 i_ n thE! process of being allocated, Mr. SpE:'Cl.kt~r.

And I do not think the hon. gentleman, incidentally, got too much to complcdnt about whE!n you see what was made available to his district under the ERDA agreement. MR. MORGAN: He does not want it. MR. DINN: He does not want it . lAJas blood money. MR. DOYLE : He said it Some $8.8 million, Mr. Speaker, is go.i.ng to be spent: on the Har·bour· B re t.on Road toward R e 11 E:10 r·arn. (\ n d o n t: o p o F -1'. h a t: T -1:: h i. n !< h <-'! g o t a pretty good chunk of money out 0 r 0 I I t' p r' 0

l) i n c .i. ·"'l c i:\ p i 1: '" 1 R 0 d. d s No. 62 R3S06

Program just a couple of weeks ago when we announced approximately $4-00,000 from ;..k'.>e Ambrose towar ·d$ Coombs Cove, which is going to be under·t.aken th ·is 1JE:1i:lr as well.. M r· . S pea k CH' , t he i'.lsl<ed wl1at other hon . gentlE:'IIIdn monies u.Je can accE~ss . WE:1 h< '\Vt ~ Rlrr:~acly annollrlCl:1d t.his construction seClson approximr'ltely $100 mill ion. t think that is a very, ver·y s 1 1 b s l·. t'l n t i. d l. p r· o g r· am . (l n d jnc:idE:~ntally because of i:.his t'r'l "Llt•JdY c:lljt'l~elflt-:~nl:., Mr· .

Spt:~dkE!t', IAJe ai"E:1 go.i ng i o have:1 approximately $1.00 mil.l. 'i.on lo $110 rui.ll-i.on E:1VPt'Y singl E:l year · for· the next fifteen y e d r· s . S o IAH'! a r· e g o "i. n y t:. o b E:1 a b l. c~ to undE:1rtake an awful lot projects t. h ct t h o n . me tn b ~~ r s ct r· e c o n c e r· n e:1 d etbout . Unfortunately, Mr . Speaker, anrl it is very unfortunate indeed, we cannot do every single project in the Province in any one given year. That is impossible . But.

I think thE:' pE !Ople of the Province can be fairly !J.Jel.l assur·ed now, given this very, ver ·y extensive package of fund l. ng that lAJE:' lAd 11. be accessing ov er the next fifteen year· s , that th E: i. r· pro b l. ems wi 11. be addreSSE:!d. Hopeful) y, Mr·. Speaker, some of Lhe pr·obl.t~IJIS 1:hd 1:. I:JH:1 hon. gent 1 E:1nli:.trl het s in his distr·ict will b ~' d d d r· E:' s s ~~ d c.'lg '" J. n next . y t:! a r· .

W E:1 havE~ alrE:li:ldy, under this dgr·eernenl:, made Hl)<:dldbl~1 j1~st e~bout : $9 mj llion to Hw hon. g C:H 1 t l. elnc:U1 1 s a r· ~1 a . 1\J OIJJ undo u b t .. e ell y , of co u r s e , M r· . P r i c e had sornE:~ tnfl.ut>nce on $8.8 Hrillton on thE:' Harbour Breton Highway tOIAJard Bc->.lleor'ctln. B11t, Mr· .

SFH ?.dker·, u.Je lAHH 'e quite generous with the hon. member this y~~ar in making available $4-00,000 of provincial money, which is going to be spent, as I said, L3507 June 23, 1988 Vol XL between Mose Ambrose to Coornb 1 s Cove, and hopefully we will get around to the re ~ t of the hon . member 1 s problems in due course. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. SpeakE!r . MR. SPEAKER : A supplementary, the hon . member f o r· For· 1:.111'1 e:~ .. li :.H' rn .i. t·· d g :::1 . MR. SfMMONS : Mr ·. Speetker, thE:~ ministE!r wi11 be t'llAid r· C:' L h r'l. 1:.

L h t:~ p ~~ o p J. ~~ i. n the a r· e a that WE:' ar·e talking about cannot l.~olt :d t f J F h :' (:1 tl y E~ rH' s I as h e suggests . I ask him to acknowlodge, AN HON. MEMBER: Are you against that, too? MR. SIMMONS: I alii agcd.nst the: ' se:1ll---out. I am against the pawn shop approach, gi.vtng someU ri.ng away . Mr.

Spedker, T as k th~ :! mirdster would he acknowledge for the House thclL he dirl indeed mclke an undertaking to the Hermitage G a ul. t. o i_ s d e 1 e g i.~ l i. o n w h e n l he y 111 e t with him a month or so ago, that l.~oJer·c~' t:hur·~~ a nE!IJJ secondar-y agreement, or were there an add--on to i:\1'1 ex J. s i" i ng UWA highways ~greement, we saw their project , Lh~~ i'le:'r·m"i. t:agt:~ · Se,"ll Cove:~ Road, as being on the top of the list? Will. h e:~ Jndicdi:e l".o t.hE:~ House whether :.indE:!ed that was his r·ecornlfl t!ndat"i.on Lo t:he federal-provincial negotiators, lhdt HHr·rrritage- ~3c~lal.

Cove IJ.Jou1d be on the top of the list, as he under·l::ook in cl meeting IA.Jith that delegation? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister· of Transportation. No. 62 R3507

... r~R. OOYLF.: Mr·. Speaker, I have absoluteJ.y no r-· e s C:H' v a L 'i. u n ~; ·\ b o 1 1 i.: s 1~. a n (l'i_ n g h 1:'! r· 1::' today, looktng the hon. m(~mber s q u cH' E~ ~i. n I h c~! fa co and b:~ l.l.i. n g h "L rn no, that undertaking, that: conun-i.tmc"!nl, thai-. prornisP t.vas ne:wer given.

What I indicated to the p e o p 1 e f r· o 111 h L s d i. s t r· i c t. lAJ h o me t w] th me was that if and when we were able to access some extra money under a secondary roads pr·ogram, or· if t:he r·ailtAJay IAJcls shut down and we were able to get sorne extra money thr·ough that sour·ce, we would be able to look at a whole lot mor·e pr·ojc-:!cls Ln the:- Province that deserve at~.te:~ntion. Anrl we are in the process of doing that, Mr . Speaker .

As I indicated to the hon. nH~mbe:H', our con1m i.trnenl to his d·istd ct hets been well 1 I o c u 111 en i·· I:! d , 1~1 E:~ l.l. doc u 1n ~>. n 1.: E~ d it ·1deed, sorne $8.8 million clppr·oved i. n L he:~ l: o p .. ,, p l. o Uw ~: rm n agr·PEHnE~nt: under· th:is new t"ailtAJi:ly l.r•anspor·i :i:ll".ion oini.t-·i.i:l.l:ilJt::~, $H.8 rnl l] ion ett;.Jarded to ·I: hE:) hon. gHnl.le:~Htr.~n 1 s c\r·ua. l\lo1~J Jl -. ""i.s qu 'i.l.<::• u 11f or·t IHJa b:! <:H1d I !; yrnpi:l thi z e a g r· e L~ 1: d (~ r'l. l.

I..IJ i I h 1.: h l'! h 0 n ' rn ern bE?. t' I s const-.ituent~s and every other p C:H' s on i n the:~ P r· o vi. n c e 1.1.1 h o hap p EHl s to llve on et dirt road. They dE>.ser·ve to have Hwi.r pr·ojects undertaken this year, Mr. Speaker. They deserve t:o have pavement in the han. member 1 s area just as well as they do in 111ine or any other area in the Province. And, Mr. Speaker, as I said, we have not only demonstrated that cornmitJnent, we hc1ve kept that commitment with the monies that we have allocab~d t:o thE~ rne:~mber· 1 s distr·ict this year.

And we d·id not !Ald. i 1: , i. n c t d f~ n t t'~ ll y , for· ,:~ ra.i lway agrE:!ernent to do that. We d p p r· o v e d , R s T s ,•d d c l. o s t:~ , I: 0 $500,000 for· the mE:~mber 1 s ar·ea to lo 1~1or· k i. n h·i. s d·i. s i.r· i 1:1:. And, i:\ s L.3S08 June 23, 1988 Vol XL f. s.:1.id, 1 sympi:ll·:h.i.I.C:' with Ul<'' people who nPPrl to hetve their r· o tHI ~; p d lJ e:~ d j : ~ · .. c:~ h o n . me m be-~ r 1 s arE:'a, and we t.1.! i.~! ., do everything in Ollt' pot~H:!r 1-:o ~;cc~ : hdt. thi.s lAJor·k is undertaken when t:·1e money becomE:'s dUc\ilable, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SIMMONS: A final supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: A fincll supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Would the minister indicate to the House, would ht~ confir·m for the House that the Hermitage - Seal CovE:~ Roetd was on the set of recommendations which came down Fro1n the,, fedE:'r•'ll side ln the negotiations, and that the road t~Jas el.·im·i.ndt<:.d by Lh<-:! provincial side, that the federals had made 1-.he t'l~comult~nd•:ti."i.on btlt i.t was eliminated by the pr·ovincial pe:~opl.e:'? r~R. DOYLF.: : That is thE:) road f: .. orn? MR. SIMMONS: Fr·otn lll:H'rni b:·lgE:~ Lo ~)e,:-1.1 Cove. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Trans por· t.a tion. MR. DOYLE : No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm or· deny that , as a mat. t e r· of fact , simply because I do not have the list of projects her·e in front of me, and there are many, many projects associated with the package that carne forward. Obviously, dll of them could not be done. But I cannot confirm or df>.ny for l:".h( ,' hon. gen ll~Hnan that this particular road was i. n c l. 11 d e:H:I . T 1: tne~ y h d v e:~ been , I do not know. You know, I tAIOtJld c er· b'l · i n .J. y h '" lJ e:~ I~ o d1 (-:~ c k 1: o f -i. n d No. 62 R3508

out. But I do not have in front of me now, Mr. I cannot conf i· ·:;< or deny thE:~ hon. member . MR. W. CARTER : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPE()KER : the llst Speaker. that. for ThE:~ hon. the mE!mber for Tl.u i. l. 1 i n g d t C:! . r'IR. W . CARTFR : Mr·. Spedker·, my question goes to t h e M i n i s I e r of F i. s h t! r· 'L o s (r'l r· .

Rideout) and it concerns the t'f~P<H ·I·.:; Lhdl . ,u ·~::~ couli .ng :i.n fr·out ar·our1d Lhe Pr ·ovinC£:' nov.J to the E~ f f e c t. t h '" L rn d y b H I~J e:~ c'\ r' f~ h (:~ a <:1 .i. n g for· a g Jut situ at. ion in the groundfishery, in certdin arecls clL least, where plants are unable for one r·< ~ason or· another to be:~ ablE:~ to accommodate the landings. I wonder can the rn-irrister tell. t.hl.;! House what action does he contemplate taking to head off that situation? MR. SPEAKER : r he h on . the M j r1 .i. s 1:. e r of F l she r l e s . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr·.

Speaker, there was a number of y e a r· s p a s s e d IJJ he n I nr~ v e r t h o u g h t I would face a question in the HousP of Ass<:~mbl.y about a glut, hut unfortunately the hon. gent1~HllcHl "i.s cororc:~c I. Tht:~rf~ <H'C:' many r.tt'E:'as of the Province where Uw r· e i s •Hl E:~ x c E:.~ 1. 1 e n L s ..i. g n o f g r · o u n d f 'l s h a n d , of c o u r· s e , at the f>r 'OSC:'rll .: rnosl ~ or Lhe Cdpctci .l:y i.n the Prov::i nee is tied up in pr·oc~::'ss'i.ng carl.·i .n, so thai--. C\dds l.o the pr ·obJ E:Hn as well.

In terms of d () 'i_ rl 9 S 0 nJ E:~ t h --j n l!j .-'\ b 0 I I l: j_ l: 1 I).J E:~ h.:'\ l)l-:' et J r· e ad y ins U t u t f~ d a p o 1 icy of issLr'i.n9 glut per'Hlil :s to cHlY fac.iljty :in the Province that meets federdl. processing r·egulat:ions. We have the glut trigger · committee ctctivat.:ed and L3509 June 23, 1988 Vol XL that trigger tr· i g g e r· those comrni t tE! e permits as v.rill is n e c e s s cl.r' y , w'i t h l n hour· s or · so noUce, anywhere in the Province . ~) e c o n d 1 y , IJJ f~ a n>. t. :" y i n g t o cl c c e s s some .· over-tht=: ;- -~;J.de sales opportunities.

The hon. gentleman, no doubt, will a p p r E:~ c i. a h>. t-. h ct l: 'i. s d i. f F i c u l. t . 0 u r policy has bN!n, for a very good t'<:~ason, dnd [ <..·Un SIH'~>. euf: ~ry lftember of the House basically supports U :, l:hi:lL ~~~l~ do noi ·: al.lot~J 'i.nto Canadian ports foreign bottoms 1.1-t i~ l:. l:w l. o n g t.: o c o 11 n l:r· i e s t h c\ t f 1 a grant 1 y over· f i s h outs ide of 200.

Thf:' t'E:~ F or·e, s h .i. ps I hat wot..Jl.d be available, say, in Spain and Po r· t 1.19 '" 1 , cl r· e no 1.: d v a .i. 1. a b 1 e c:~ n d tJJe do not intend to change our policy i. n t h '" 1: t' e 9 cH' d j 1 1 s 1-. be c a 1 J s e of t: he situation we ar·e facing . We ar·e t r· y .i. n g t o d c c e s s s om e b o t. t o 111 s f r om Canadian companies and from East Block countries. ·rhere is a committee actively working on that n ov.J , a n d t h ~~ t c o mm i t t . e e i n c 1 u d e s the union .

We wiJ 1 be doj ng t>u e r y t h i. n g IAH:~ human 1 y can , including redirecting fish to other· pr.n·t.s of U1P Pr·ou i.nce where there is not a qlut . We have PE:'opl.e wor·ktng on that as well. MR. W. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKF.R : lh1:~ hon. l:.hf:' IIIE~mber for Twillingate on a supplementary. MR. W. CARTER : C,Hl l:he lflini.sl :er· I:E:'l.l. t·h1.;! HOUSE! tJJhy it is he waited until the ,,~J.t'IJ~:!nl".h hoi.Jt' l:o sl:.,'lr'l :. l:.alking about the possibility of getting s hi. ps to 1md E:H' l:c:-1 k E!, for· f~xampl e, over-the-side sales?

The glut s.i.l·uctt: ·i.on i.s not uncomlilon. It. has been, granted, for the past tv.Jo or t: h r· E' E:~ y f'! d r· s . A f ·t-e r' l: h r <-'! e y e a r· s o f fishermen not being able to catch enough fish to keep body and soul No. 62 R3S09

togeth~:~r·, notAl IJ.H"~ havt~ a glul.~ .:lnd he ·.is Wi:ti ting until the eleventh ho11t' i~o t;• . I i.: abo11L gel:U .ng d conl.i11guerrcy plan in place. Why <ltd h{~ IJ.Jdil~ l·hi:\1 ·~ long? MR. 3PEI1Kr :R: lhP hot1. the:~ Mlnlst.EH' of Fisheries . MR. RIDfOUT: Mr·.

Sp~'akc-?.r', t:h<· '! facts of the matt.Pr, and the facts can be b or· n e o IJ t. by the p E:' o p 1 E:~ .i. n v o l v t~ d , which is the federal Department of Fisher·les, t.he unJon, t.uhi.ch we certainly do not control, and thE! provincial Depart.JnE!nt of Fisheries, are that there was no s u c h t h l n g a s wa l t: i. n g u n U 1 t he eleventh hour. The glut mana gem~~ nt plcHl for th l s Prov .inc e, thE:' contingency plan, has been in place:~ for· sev~~r·,"l weeks. Thf~ problem, Mr .

Speaker, is that th(!r'~' ar·r::! s.-lmply no For·eign bottoms available at a moment 1 s nol.:'i.cc~ lo coni<"' inlo Canadoi..Hl waters, with the E:!Xcept:i on of S p c\ i. n tHl c:l Po r· l· 1 19 al , i:Hl d IJ.H~ d r· ~) no 1: goJ11g to al 'l ow thPrn in. It is i:tS s i.1npl t:' ds thdi: . SOf-'IF liON. MHif B FRS : Hec:tr', hear·! MR . FUREY: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR.

FUREY: Mr·. the Speaker, a quick question to Minister of Justice (Ms Verg<::'). 1980 She will know that i.n the Premier said that for Nt~t.ufoundland S(::~es i.t.s dl-?.lnands an improved railway system as a Union with r· Lght undE?.r the-?.

TEH'IflS of tJJith Canada and not linked p o s s t b l E:~ f f~ d E~ r a l. s p e n c:l i. n g neC"!ded h:igl1way impr·ovement.s. c o t 1l. d UH~ M "i. n i. s 1: e r o F J 1.1 s U . c t~ on Now l:ell . 1. 3~10 June 23, 1988 Vol XL Uw Ho11se hot;.J IJ.Jl~ cd111e fr·om in 1980, having a constitutional r··ighl: ltndc:H' lhl:' i·,:~ •·1ns of Union, t:.o 1 9 8 8 , w he r· e 1.1.1 e do no t h a v e a c o n !> 1 . .i. I~ 1 1 ·1. J o n ·~ 1. r· i. g h I~ u n d (~ r· t he TE:!rrns of Union.

The Premier· j n l 9 8 0 S r.d d C J (:~ iH ' J 'j l.o~H:' h d V t:! d S 0 ]. i d case under the Terms of Union and a consl::i .i:u-t: Joni'll right: and ther'E' ought to be no links bE:~tween highuJdY Fundlng and ra:i.l1.1.1ay funding. How did l.lle go from having a constitutlondl right in 1980 to not having one in 1988? MS VERGE : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice . MS VERGE: Mr.

SpE?.ab?.r, L.he pr·esc:!nt Premier· at the start of his administration nJc:J.dc:~ evl~ry f~Ffor1. 1-.o make:~ the NetJ.Jfound]and Railway viable and t:J.i".l .r·i:l.c l'. ·i lJC:~ l·.o consulfH:~r·s. ~:>OME HON . MF:MB E RS : Hear·, hE:!ar! MS VFRGF: And I.AJl:~ 11se:~d. dS the Pr·ern .i.er· hirnse1f has said, every lever at o 11 r• d J s p o s <'\ J. 1: o p r· (:~ s s ur· e the federal government and CN to carry out modernildlion of the railway and implement a containerization pr·ogr·arn, and tAle had some success. However, it did not work.

The consuu1ers of the Prov .i.nce have responded, and we have had to accept reality, that the railway is passe, and confront the need for chi:lngt.~. And we have done that and succeeded in negotiating a ver·y, VE?.I"Y good agreement with the federal government to fund major :i.mprov~?.ments in r·oad and wab-?.r modes of transportation to meet t.he:~ futur·E~ tr·anspor·tr.ll-:.ion needs of our people. And instead of I Mel !> t i. n g o 11 r· t · i. rtl r-?. rd 1: ... p i. c k i. n g o v e r· No. 6 2 R3S10

pieces of paper and documents from decades past, what this ad m l rri s t r· a t i o n i s d o l n g i s fa c l n g the future and looking ahead to the next decades . SOME HON. MEMBFRS: Hear·, hear' MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary . MR. SPEAKER: A supplE~n1entar·y, the hon. the riiPHib<-'!r For· ~)i :. Rr:H'bl:~. MR. FURFY: Whcli: lhr:' r~ ·i.nj .~;i.tH' of JIJSI .'icr::! Js say:ing j <; ·t.hat thE:' Pr ·emjE:'r' was p o s I u r· :i. n 9 i. n 1. 9 8 0 d b o 1 1 1. h rW • i. n 9 i'l consiit.utiona.J r·. ight.

HE:' wets pr·obdbl y pos l:llr' :i ng i·:he o Lht:'t' rldy 1.uhen hE~ si.dd WE:' did not have a consi:i.I:11L-i.onr'll r·i .ght. NOIAI 1 IAJOUld likE:· to ask the MinlstE:'r of Just'i.u~ v.rill shP t.dblP in t.hi.s House thE:~ 1980 legal opinion that the Pt'l-'!mier· sought . shOIAJ'Lng t.he~t tJ.Je had a constitutional right? And will she further table the 1988 opinion, not the synoposis, the twenty or twenty-five page opinion developed by her department which shows that t..UE:~ do not havP a constitutional right? Would she plectse tabh' bolh t.hose legal. opinions sought by the Justice Dc-'!par·tmt:.>nt.

U1dt g-i.ve hvo seprH'c3.te and diffen~nt viewpoints? r..,s v F.: Rra:: : Mr ·. Speaker· . Mf~. ~3PF11KF::R : The hon. the Minj st.er· of JusU ce .

MS VFRGE: Mr. ~:>pt:!dkr:·r·, ·I h~~ yovor·n1nenl :. hds hon . already distributed to all m EWI b ~~ r· s , iHl d l·.he nml.JS nwd-i.;'l for· ·llw public of the Province, the lPgc~l adv ·Lce g 'i v t~ n b y lol-w to p J aiAIYE:'rS in thE:~ Justice L3Sll June 23, 1988 Vol XL D ~>.par· t men t .. consistent That. with legal advicP is advice and oplnJons g-i.ven no1..u dnd in thE:~ past by lawyers now employed by the d e p a r· t m t:~ n t a n d o u t s i. d P c o u n s e 1 . MR. FUREY : Is t: he Hli. n is I e r· s t.1J pi d? for the legal opinion? SOMF HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR .

SPEAKER: 0 r· d P r· , p 1 c-'! a s c,~ ! MR. FURFY: T i·Hn son·y, r..,r .. ~3p(~aker . MR. ~3PFAKER: I askr::>d ·1 hE:! t i rn e for 0 r· a 1 Q u e s t l o n s h a s t:'li-l.psec.l . Petitions MR. RUSSELL : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: T h P h on . l h c' M i n i s 1: e r of Environment and Lands MR. RUSSELL: M r . S pea k e r· , I am pl. e a s e d to d a y to present a petition whicb appr·oxtmal:ely 356 studc-:>nts and teachers from the Fortune Col.l.E:~g ·i.di:E:~ and Gr·dncl Bank ar·pa hr.we for'IJJcH'dE!d to me. M r .

S p E:~ a k e r , rna y be I c an be s t s u TT 11 p I hE:' p r r'l y 1-H' of U1 f:~ p t>. l. i 1: i. on ·i. r the covering letter to it. It i~ Addr·e~>!>t:'d to Hie CIS t.he rnin:ist.c:•r·, and not to the House or 90'HH'I'lnltH11.:, i'lnrl T would hope t.hat Your· Honour wj lJ be a littlE l. ~Hl'i. c:!l ·l'l: i. n U1 i'l i: i. t: ul'i . g h l n o ·1: 111 e E! t the E:~xact cr·i teria set dov.m ir pe I: 'i t:Jon~;. No. 62 R3511

...!... It says: 11 I am enclosing with this l f~ t t e r ,.~ p f.~ t i. t i o n c i r· c: ul t'l t E:' d b y thP stud~'nLs c;f Fortune Collegiate f>E'!t. i.i ."Lon i.ng yotlr' golJCH'ntriCHli:

h) rcinstcde thE~ ret.ur·nab]e bottle dnd r:dn ." SOMF HON. MFM8FRS : Hear·, hc-:!ar·! MR. RU~3!3[1_1 _: "The students feel that the n o n r· C:' t u r· n r.t b J. e b o t. 1-. 1 c,~ s c.~ n d c '-'' n s haVE:! becom~~ t.he major pollution problPnt tAli thin our· Prov i.ncE~. Th~~y feE:'l so strongly about this issue t h d t t he y d c~ c i. d E:' d to fhH' t i c i . p a t e in for·mulating this petition to l nd l ca te t.o you l:h~~ mag ni tud (! of the problem, with the hope that your· government will institute a p o 1 t c y of r e t u r· n a b 1 e b o t t.l ~~ s a n d cans.

"I bel.i.E!Ve that my students have had cl tremendous lear·ning exper·it"!tlC<~ in us"i.ng t:he dPrnocra i·j c pr·oce:~ss in an E:'ffort to change, or i:\ 1". l. E'! d. S i·.: t. 0 r:'l i·. l". E~ I rl p ·1·. l.: 0 j_ r1 j-l U C:! tl C t~ changes, j n gouE.>r'nrnent policy. "T r·espucl".fttlly r·pqtH,~st. l.hi-ll: y

C) II House ·.i 1: 1-. () p r· E~ !i P n t ·t-. ! , . .i. ~; p t:' L i t i o n t o t h E:~ oF ASSl~tllbly dnd 1-.1-lt:!rl fot'l.~oli:H'tl Cabinet for possJbJe aclion . II r"' y s t 1.1 d e n 1:. s rHl! I I t-: h a n k y 0 I I y o u r· s i n c E:! r E:' c o n c e r n o v e r i. s s tH~ , .~ n d tAle i: r· us i: t. h d 1·.: you giue this petition considc·H'at.ion t..uhen you dE~t'll. Utis problem issue. 11 for this will due with Mr·.

SpE:'aker, I am pJ Pased indeed to present this petition For severaJ re~sons: One, I am delighted to St-:'!~~ t:he young peopl(~ and the students of this Province b e c o rn c,~ . ·i. n v o 1 v !':1 d i. n e n v i r· o n 111 e n ti:-1. 1 issues. I have said publicly thE!r'f:~ appears to b(~ d. ki .nd of rHl attitudinal prob1em on the part of :'llt-: ~wfot~ndl.ander·s, Mr· .

SfH~akE: ~r·, i":o L3Sl2 June 23, 1988 Vol XL thr·ow away the cans and the bol:l :l.c,>s ,~-long ~.h· ' h i. ght.Ali~y s and in lhe parks and 0Jo ng the rivers, pond~; and :;l:r· c,,,,l!n· ·. dnrl so on. ( think if we are to change this .~u · i l.t1d1~, Mr. S~H~r.lker·, .U.: pc:!r·haps should s tar·t in the schools , to bel: 't.e r· etbout c r· E:' ;~ i-. e d k i.nd of c~cltiCdi 't! l.h(:' yotJng the pollution <'lnd cr.ln b,,, Cr'(~t'ltc=•cl th'lng. p·c-:!ople pr·oblern by this T dlll dol.ight:ed i.n congr·atul.ating thE:' students and the tE!achers in l:h~>.

For·tunE:~ and Gr·a.nd Bank area, and particularly the teacher who is r·esponsi.ble for· this . I talkc~d to this teacher, Mr. Speaker, on the CBC Morning Show during Envirornnent: Week and he indicated to me a petition would be forthcorni .ng, and I also lndicated to him, of course, that I would be p 1 e a s t~ d to r e c 1::1 i. v e l t a n d I wo u 1 d prE:~ s (-:! n t .i. t to t he 1 .. e g i s 1 a t u r· e . T 1·1 ,,, t e d dH-:! r· ·i. n q 11 e s t i ern , M r . Speaker·, is one who is 1..uell known by lllt:'lllbcH'S opp• .ls i i .:•, l)l('!ll. knotAJn by the person presenting this p (c' L j_ i ·j

l) n I r·~ r :1 p f' r.l k (! r· . H (! i. s C r· i~ ~hun Wood . !iOr~F liON. MFMB E RS : Hear·, hear! MR. RU!3!3EI .L : Without really bringing politics :i.ni ... o t:i'l"i .s, [had Lht~ pl.easur'E! t.o defeat the gentleman in 1982. However, Mr. Speaker, I congratulate him for taking thls initiative with his students and L he t e a c h E:H' s i. n t h a t a r· e a . T h e y are to be congratulated for this. I look forward, in the not too distant future hopefully, when this government can do something abo u t Ud s pro b 1 E:~ m . I t. h .i. n k that the people in this Province now ar·e mor<-:! env"i.r·onrJIE:>rltt'tl.ly consci.ous No. 62 R3512

about thi.s sort. oF thi.nq 1~.han they were a few years ago. I havE~ had numer·ous let.ter·s fr·o1n var·ious gr·oups, the Federation of M a y o r· a n d M 1 Hl i. c i pal i t i e s I for· example, and the Association of Youth Serving Agenc les, I think i.s anothE!r, and seVE!ral individual co u n c 1.1 s and i, n d i v :i d u <'i 1. c i t-.. i L f:! n s of this ProvincE! indicating to rne their suppor·L for t.hi.s kind oF in:.i b ative. I dirt looking for'IJ.Jar·d I hopt::~ful.J.y I to goVE:'rnment dE~ali.ng with it :.in t. he not: I: o o el-i. s ~:an 1·: r u 1·. u r· e . M r . S p 1::' d k e r I T I: d b le L h · i !; p

t) L oi 1·. i. o n a n d c

E) r·l. a i n 1 y u.r] 1 ] r· E:~ f C:' r i t t o rn y o1.~om dE:~p.u·i-rnc:~nt: Lo l.~oJh i.ch i. l-. bE::~llHlg!;. T h.~ n lc yo tj I M r· . ~) p E::' r.l h:H' . MR. DfCKrR: Mr. Spedker . MR. SPFAKFR : r hE>. h o n . 1·. h P n1 <·:>rn be r for· L he 3 t. r· ct i. i: of AE:~lh' Is] e . MR. DFCKER : M r· . S pea k e r· , I cWI g 1 ad to h a v e t h e opportunity to stand up and suppor·t. this petiUon presented by sttJdents and tE!achers. I think it is a very, very important petition.

HowevHr', advice I do have a little bit of for the students and tt::~acher·s who si.gned i:hi.s pc-?.t.i.l~·i.on, because they are dealing with a gov f>. rntrH:' n ~·. 11..1ho probr'lb 1 y hL'tV E=! J. e s s concer ·n for· the environment than any govEH'rHfl(:~nl: i.n Norl:h rlrnt)r·i.c;., i.oday. We h <.HI P a rn :i n J s 1·: e r· who h a r· d 1 y knou.J~; 1-.JH) d.i .l-fc,H '~HJc~::! I:H~ t-.I~H)8n PCHs and j e 1 J y be CHIs . We h a v E:~ d counl:r·ys'i.d~:! 1~1hLd1 i.!; l.i.l:h'.!T'~'d 1~J:i.Lh CcH' lAJr·eH:ks.

WE~ have town dumps 1~1 b .i c h CJ. r e n o t·· h · i. n g u n l. y e y l~ !; o r· :) :; 1..3513 June 23, 1988 Vo1 XL 1. o v i. s :L l:: :i. n 9 t: o u r· i. s t s a s 11..1 e 1 1 '" s t. o our own residents So t:hi.s petil.:i.on i ~; addr·ess(=!d, Mr. Speaker, t.o a goVE!t'iJITient which has d t o t. a l. d i s r· e g d i' d f o r t h e landscape. This petition cornE!S fr·orn people 1..uho realiZE:' the total disregard for the environment this goVE!rnHH)nt has dnd the pr·esent government is trying to force the people to do something about cleaning up the environment.

It ·i.s a good pHL:i.l·.i.on and I thi.nk we s ho11ld gEd: mor·e of them. () 1-r:'l.~ol U.H:~t:!k:; dgo, Mr·. Speak~.:.~r. I talked about the ribbon of glass lr·otn h~H'l:~ l:o ~i:. An l".hony . Let 1ne tell aboul some more problems were l:hos(,' nonr'l:~l·.llr'tli-l.b.le bol::Ll.es t.ur·n up. The salmon season on the rivers opt~ n ::! d 1 ;~ s I. I~H~ t:~ k I M r· . 3 p e:~ a k e r , and anyone who had a salmon l'icence to ':J o i o Uw r· .i. u e r s , L n p r' a c U. c a 11 y e v E1 r y river in this Province will br··Lng bdck thE:' Sdill(' stor·y, that. the river bottoms are cluttered lAJ i.

U1 soft dr·ink but t1(;!S. Thr·ou.m there because there are value1E1SS. You do not see any i:.en cent pieces on the bottom of the r·iver·s. You do not S(~e any money on the bottom of the rivers, but you see bottles and empty pop cans thrown into the rivers, Mr·. SpeakE'r. The envi.r·onment "i.s being devastated because this government i.s dll.owing the manufacturers to make a bottle totally worthless. U. i.s dH:~ap<:'r' l:o t-.hrOIAJ ·i.t at.~.Jay than it is to carry it home. Mr.

Speake:•r, P r· o IJ ·i n c t'! n n it bt! thE:1 to drive across this l·:ht' hJ.ghiJJr'ly 1 1..uhet~wr Trans-Canada or the l: r·1aJ!< WOlJld [: hr'OI~I soft !-) i.d l~ r· o H d !; I •Hl i n l. (:~ l. l. i. g lHl t d r· i. v (:H' assume he is expected to h·i.!; pop c;~n. 1-.o HH'OIAJ h"i.s drink bottles out over the o r ·U1 (:' r· o ;~ d . nw r· e i. s no l: No. 62 R3513

o n e s i. g n p o s t e d s a y i. n g , ' D o n o t throw your ll.tter on the side of Lhe r·oad, ' ''· L a s "i.gn! ( dS kE:'d Ute Min :ist8r- · of TransportaUon ~iOiflfd- _iflll~ rl.9U l--o ptil: thUS<~! s ·i.gns up, and wh.ilE:> he .is at :it, to put s<HfiE:~ g.:u·l:lr:\9!-:~ b i.ns l·.hcoH'f:' .

T~w J.olri.cdl. t:nncl.tts·i on l.o .-u·r··i lJH a t. f o r· p eo p l e g e t_ i. i n g off t he f <->. r· r· y :i n P o r· l·. d 1.1 x rl i:l s q 1 1 ,,~ ~; o r· '"''hoE:~VEH', is :.i.t is quite legal in '1--.h ·i.s Pr·ov i.nCE:' l:o b~c-~p yotlt' g,u·l:J,~ge in your· car· in Nova Scot:io ond as soon ds you g~~l--. dct·oss l·.hp l,t .ll.f, sling it out over the roadside . Now Ul'i.s i.s U1r:1 k:i.nd of govEH'nmr- ~nL that this peU tion :is oddressing .

I c e t' t a i n 1 y s u p p o t' t t h r:~ p e t.'i . t L o n but I warn and I advise the people who signed it, do not hold your· breath while you are waiting be c a u s e t he r· <->. IJ.ti ll be no t h l n g d o n e with the environment in this Province unt .U . tAJf~ get. d government . who carE!s. And I hope t 1"3.t will happen sooner than later. Thank you , Mr ··. ~3 p ea kt1r . MR . MTTCH F Ll .: Mr· . Speak E:H' . MR . SPFAKFI~ : ThP hon. t.he mE:!mbE:~r for· l. aPoile . MR . MTTCIIF:I .I.: TIJ ·.i s is another petition, Mr . !~ p (:~ i'l k (~ t' . MR. L.ON!, : Mr ·. Spea kE:H' . MR.

SPFAKER : I l: ·i s no 1.: l n or d e r f o r· tJw h o n . member for St. John's East (Mr. Long) t-.o speak t.o t.hls pet.i.ti.on because there has been one already speaking on this side. MR. LONG : Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave to L3514- J IHI (:~ 2 3 ' 1 9 B R lJ o J X I. spedk 1:o be th:i.r·d spPaker· on th!:'! petition. MR. SPEAKER : Do <:1 s I: h f'! h o n . rn P rn b <-' t' h d v c-:! l. e a v E! of the House? MR . TULK : (\ p 0 i. n l. 0 f' 0 r· d E:H' . MR. ~>PEAKF:f~: A po:lnt of order, the hon . the niPrnl :wr' for · rogo. MR. TULK : Just a point of clarification . MR.

LONG: You ~re supposed to go that side but they do anybody else to speak. MR . TULK : back to not have I think you have to go back to that sl.de if there is somebody who IJ.Jlshes to addn: !SS the petlt. .ion . I cou]d bE! wrong. Since therE! is rl 0 b 0 d y W h 0 IIJ i. S h l::' S 1.: 0 d d d Y' E~ S S t h E' petition, I think, we are allov.Jed i~ o lvw t:! HH ' f:• c,~ me 1nb t~ r· s sped k . I think the hon. ge:~ntleman can speak. AN HON. MEMRER: ( I n dud :i. b J. t1 ) . MR . TULK: No, but he wantE:'d t.o raise a no t.her p!::' l. 'i.l_ ·i.on. MR . SPEAKER : OrdE:'r, please!

That is not according to our S l:. c~ n d 'i. n g 0 t' dE?. r s . S tan d -;_ n g 0 r· de r' s say a person presents a petition i-:lnd one fr·orr1 E~ach stde IJ.Ji .1l then speak. but if the han. member has ll->.av<:~ of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : By leave. MR. SPEAKER: ~J 0 ' (j:?. R3514-

ThE.~ hon. the member for St. John 1 s t::ast, by l.t:~dVr:'. MR. LONG : Thank you, Mr. Spectker . I appreciate the leave of the H o u s t-:' t o a d d d f ~~ IAJ c orrn n e n t s +:. o I: h f~ petitjon presenlE!d by the mj.nister t' e s p o n s i b l e F o r· p t' o b>. c t i. n g o u r envir·onment IJ.Jhtch I L4JOUJ.d like to r·em ·ind hi1n of, becausl.:.

T Ud.nk this minister and this government iH'e not a11;.JRys u1lndful that thc"'t'e is a Oepart.rnent of Environment which i.s char·g~~d t;.ri.th i.l-w pri.mar·y duty of protecU ng the Pnvir·onment and not, dS t.~JI::~ hdve sr~·c.:.n on cc->.r·te~in occas:ions, clCting as a f d c L 1 'i.l: a i:. or· f o t' l h c.:. co~ d s y rnanctgE.Hnent. of j ndustrial projects d nd d'.i . r f·f c u 1.1'. e l'lV .i. t'IHlliH:' n Ld l. q u P. s 1'. i. o n s i. h cl t.

E:! :i t h EH' p r· o t e c t i.ndw;l.r·y or· proh:'Cl'. lhto~ gOlJt'!t'lllllt-:'nl·. f r· o rn d i f r j c u J t p o J i t.: i c a J q u e s 1. i o n s <H1d do l_·i{-· i l C:' i r1 l.:ht-:~ IAidY 0 f pi"O'I.Pct ing i hf! envj r·onrnPnt. T t.Ud. s s u r·pr·oi c; (.•d, freud< ly, the Mi.nishH' of Fnv ·ir·onHH~!nl', in pr·E!SEH1t'ing the pr:~t'i.t'lon, r·ealJy hrHl no t.h i ng l o '>dY dS to IJ.J~W UHH' there was ar1y progress wjthin go v c->. r· n rn C'! n t: u n the p r· o rn i. s e the mjnister· has g:iven in the past to have sorne movement on i:his issue.

In fact, I have been, in the last days of the House as we head t.m..uar·ds the closing of th~~ House, been wondering, and perhaps lnt:c,,nding to ask at some poi.nt, depending on how many days we have left, t.uheUwr t.he rni.ni.st:er· i.s abh~ to come For·ward with a commitment h ~~ g d v e in Uw pd. s 1: 1': h a I. t. h r:~ gover'l'lmerd · tAli]] take action h o p e F u l J. y , h P s d i d , I:> H f o r-t:~ 1: h e HotJSE:' cJosE~d dtu·jng t..he Summer .

Mr·. ~) p (:' c:l k (~' t' , ·fh ·i,:; oi. s ~; 111.·:1 Uld 'l'. yo11ng pc~op] E·' f'~;pec :ii:llJy havE:~ br:!E:' n Ill o b :i. l. i. ri . n g b t' l) <:\ d pitbJ.j c :; uppor· 1'. on L3SEl June 23, 1988 Uol XL acr·oss the Pr·ovince, is E:'Xpressed iod.iy .i.11 ~~ pr.>Lil ·ion he has recr:~.i.ved by one g• ·<, up of students d n d i" h e i r· L e l:l c hE! r· i r· (' 1 n o n ~~ d r· e a of the Pr·ovince.

The minister is i:ti.IJrH'e, i.H1d "[ cHfl sun>. lflOSt hon. mE!rnbers are, and certainly the govc->.t'tlillent should be a1..uat'<->., that this issue is galvanizing the "i mag "i. n a t .i. o n of not o n 1 y y o u n g peoplE!, who are leadj ng a mobili.z lng effort, but peoph1 all across the Province. I think the member for the Strait of A~~1l<o' lsl.t~ has r.1dded sornc->. words that have put a good image to the p r· o b 1. e HI IJ,J(~ f.-~ u>. w h f:' n h e d e s c r i. b c~ s a r·ibbon of glass and talks about +:he c a r· IJ,Jt' E~ c k s .

B 1 1 1: l. h u r· ~.-:~ i. s '~' r· (~ d 1 quE:'~; L 'l on about the petiU.on t.hal has been brought b ~) f

I) t' 0 II ~; lA I h !::' i'l 1: h l'! l'f1 'i. t1 .iS C e t' 9 ·i, V (~! S c r· e d i t t: o t he e n e r g i e s of t: h r:~ YOIItlg pt:'opl~::' t'·lnd l.hc:' nPr:'d for· Further· E:!ducation 'in r:•nvi .ronment. [ IJ,Jo 111 d s ;,, y UH:H' ~~ ·i s go i n g f o b cc. a real Jesson for lhes~ young people :i.n Lh:) busi .ness of dl:'lflOCt'dcy, and whether, as a r(:•suJ.l of their· c"1Ffor·l.s •£tnd l .. hPir· pr·ov ·ince IAd .dE! organizing of the energy they have gener·•~\ted, t.he gov~::'Y'tlTIH~nt. is going to be able to respond, whether the go v e r· n m ~~ n 1:.

J s go in g t. o b <->. a b 1 e t: o take this Minister of Environment, the minister responsible for protecting the environmE!nt, and t. he t.uho l.e De prH' hne n t of Environment, and all the questions r· H 1 a 1·: 'i. n g to t.Jw fH1 v i. t' on tn e n t ."ln d say, 'We, as a government, believE• L h d t. t h i. s is an .i. s suE:' of p r· i rna r· 1J importance to the pE:'ople of this Pr·ov-Lncl~, 1 dnd :i.mrnr:~d.i.i~\t:~::'l.Y take action to phase tn a program j n 1~1 h :i. c h 1: h t=J ~; o f L d r· .i. n k c: d n s ~d 1. 1 b P. banned in this Province. Tht-:~ ~;

c) r L d r"i n k d i. s l.: 'i.J .ll:! t' s hr:-\ve, 1 am s ur·e, over the past. number of y ~~.u· s hi-\d l.IH~ ~.-:1 •i r· or var··i.ous No. 62 R3Sl5

,.,_ 1ntn is ler·s and per·haps UH:~ Pr·em ·i.er· of the government, complaining dbout thr::> u,,;t:s Hldl': t.ht-?.Y would jncur ·in ~;;,,jng through such d1 d n g ~~ s . flu t. t. he gout:' nwH~ n I~ should comE· j n and for·ce a program u F d c U o n i. n t~J ~l'i. c h IAH~ tJ..d J J. Hlo v e' t-. o 110t only bdn l he can, but br·ing :in b 0 [ ... t·.J (~ S J-: h r•\ t· lAJ j, J J. be d j_ S p () S db 1. (:~ c11'1d retun1abJ.e for· depostt, bf'!C:duse t~h.~l~ ·i:; IJ..Jhi.-\1: yo11ny peopl~~ <H'e r..tJ5o ask:ing for ·.

C i. tJ en Uw cl iff i. cull ·i_ (~ s yo 11 n g pE:HJplP havE~ :in or·ganiz:i ng i ~ h P.lfl s P l v t:~ s :i n y o u t· h g r· o u p s "' n d conlrnun:it.y assocj_atjons, they r· u r11 <:' rn b t! t' s L o t' i t! s F r· o Til t ~w j_ r· p i:H' en t· s of h OlAJ bot t.l e d r j u e s on ~3d t:ur ·dr.ty afler ·noons or · ~>und.~y n1or·nings wE:'r'E~ altJ.Jays an important f u n d r a ·i s 'L n g o p p or· tun i. 1-y for· r:~ 11 kinds of cornrnun-.ity gr·oups, but e s p l:' c i. r:ll. 1. y y () u t: h g t' () u p s ' So l:hE! young people ar·e saying, 'In our efforts to be organized d n d c o n 1~. i n lH!

L o c d r· t' y o u t t he actiuit:ies of our youth groups and Y (l U t h r:'l.

S ~; 0 C i, d l: .i. 0 rJ S , lA) (:'! l'l e ~~ d t h C:' bo ·ttJe ret.ui"n, not. only for· PnuJ.r·onmpnt .•~l. r'edsons, but For· o t ~H:~ r I" e a s u n ~'· I h a t:. h a v e t: o d o tJ..d t h Uw IJ.Jelfare or i"hl' communi .l~y .:-lnd t hP abj 1 Jty of gr ·oups to or·ganize t. h H [JI <; (:' l v ~:! s rHH:I t' i.-l ·j s (:~ f 1.1 n d ~; ' I T t ~d rrk t.hat ·:is a very impor·tarrt. dSP("!CI-. or l.ht-:' CdiiiFh'Li.gn YOIJf19 fH:'Cl p J P <:t r C:! b r· i 1 1 g i. n g f o r·wa r· d . r 1.1.Jo u 1. d j us 1.: s .. ~ y , i. n con c l u ~; ·i on , MJ".

Speake!", what the rn:inisler has donn in br•·i.ng'i.ng for·t~Jo:H'cl [·IJ~:o~ pPLit :iorr is again put pr·essure, not: on i·:h<:~ House, bt~CdtJSI:~ thE:' ndnister· has received r ~'! p r· (~ s ~:-r1 t. a t "i o n F r· o m b o i ~ h o F t h e partic-?.s -.in thE! House, but put pressure where it belongs .

Govern1nent nolAJ, fashion, should 1: h e n e x t. c o u p 1 e i. n due d ~~ mo c r· at L c come forward in of days t.~~ri. 1: h an L3516 June 23, 1988 Vol XL dnnouncelfl<-?.nt closes that bt'i .ng i.n l:hf.' and moue before the Hou se the government wiJl pldn to bc:-ln the can t c.,~:.:~ rd returnablE! d i. s p o s i.·l b l n b o l i : '" s a n cl d e p o s i. 1: r· ~:~ l:urns on bo ttles across the P r· o 1; j n c ~~ . fhdnk you, Mr·. Sper:l.b?.r·. MR. M'CTCHELL: Mr· . Speaker ·. M R . ~:> P FA K F R : T h e h o n . t h e rn E:~ rn b e r f o r· L. a p o j J E:' • MR.

MITCHELL : i.l! r· ' s p l:' i.-l k C;! r· ' I r· i. s l:~ l 0 d r'l y l 0 prE!sent a petition from thE· t' e s i. d e n 1.: s o f R o ~; ~~ A 1 d n c h e , H a r· b o u r· Le Cou and Diamond Cove. Mr. ~~pt-?.aker·, ther·e rH'e S83 na111es on thts pE•t-.iU.on and I would likE:~ to read Lhe pr·ayer· of the petitlon, Mr. Speaker. It says: "We, the people of RosE! Blanche, do hereby petit.lon the government t..o force RoSE! Ting of E 1. [)or·'-" do S !~ i:\ f on rJ s I oi.m .i ted to s e ll her holdings i.11 our community. nw t' ~~ .:1 s

I) n Po r· J. h i s p e 1: i L 'i. on 'i. s that we, the peop1e, have lost c; o n F 'i. cl !:' n r: e i. n r:: J. [) u r· el d o S l:' d f o u cl s to provide jobs for our community.' Mr·. Speaker, I think it js in Ll:H't:~·; t.·i.ng l:o no l:e t:h •. d·. UH->. people tJ..Jho signed Ud s peLi l:i on t~Jl;!t't-:' :>·i .xl ·l-:~t~n yE:~i~r ·:; of age and OV~'r. M t' . ~-) p e r:l k (:'t' • j 1: (:~ X p r· e s s ~~ s t. h ~! feeling that the people have jn Rost:~ RJ.. :~ndw for th~;;! major· industry which was the f:ish plant 1: h f:~ r· t~ . M r . S p ~~ a k :~ r , tJ..J ~HHl M r· s .

Ting came to Rose Blanche about t h r· e e y f~ rH' s ago , s h e a p p r· o a c he d the people there and she had tremendous plans For that operation. It was gojng to oper·at:e nine rnonlhs out of the No. 62 R3516

ye.u·. Mr·. SpE:~.:~ktH ', l:'!IJto~r·ybody t;Jr'ol:; going to be employed in the C O niiiiUI 'l·j l.y. }1.-,~r· l CHI•:!J t'i.~rlgt' pl •HI, Mr ·. SpeakE~r, wa s to get into s t' con cJ.u · y f>r' o c t~ s s i. n g r:~n d , t understand therE>. had bE~en some h :~ l. k a b o 1 1 1: p r· o c lo~ s s i. n g undE:~rul. :i ]·.izE:'d spec ies of fi .sh into c a t f o o u s o 1: h <.'\ L i +-. tJJ o u 1 d tHo' a very viable operat:ion. 8 u t. , M r· . S p e ~ k e r· , L h a t. d i. d no t tur·n out to be so . Last . year the p eo p 1 e i. n tho s c-:! co rnrnu n ll- .1 t::' s had a very frustrating Winter.

The plant. ope r·a h>.d b~~ l:WfH>.rl six to seven weeks. It never operated long enough, Mr·. SfH >.a hH', for Hw r·esidents of that community to h ri\ v f>. g o t t e n e n o u g h c r· e cl L I I;.J i. t h t. he i r s tamp s i n o r· d e r to q u a 1 :i f y for UTC . so i 1-. 1. t:! f 1: -t-.1 w s 1.:> c o rrn n u n J 1 ·. "i ~~ ~; , r·'lr' . Spei:ih>r ', :in Ci b:i i. of an unsE:d .:t.led s·i.l :ud t ion. r·1r ·.

Sfll o~•'\kt '!t ', i·h ·i~; ·i: ; why I t.<:~ke t:h-.:is pl".ivilE:~gc-:! todr.lY t.o S1Jppor ·l: 1-.h:i.s pe:~i .·i.t ·.-i.on . ·r: i:19t'l'!l.:> w.i th i.hE:' 583 rk1rnes thi:it. j s on this p~: ~ l:"i.l:ion .:~ncl T: 11r·gco~ l:he \,I)VtoH'rllfi~Hll". of NPtAJfound1 and ctnd I ctbnH3or Lo do IAihr'\1 : il- po• ;s ib"! .y C:r-Hl l:o l.r·y dnd f·j nd ou·t :if l. h~= ·J~E:' is some w<:ty we c r.Hl f o r· c ~=! M r s . T i n g i n 1.: o s E:~ ll i. n g her opE:!r·at·ion or having that o p t'! r· d t. i. u n , M r· .

S fH ?. d k E~ r , o p e n ct g d i n so these people Jn these communi . ties can gt:~t br:tck to wor·k . Mr. Speaker, I realize during the Summer months it was not traditional for the plant to o p e r· a t e . B u t i. n an o t he r c o u p l e of months, Mr. Speaker, the residents in these cornmunilies will be loob t1g forward to going back to 1.1.Jor·k i.n thc.:>.i .r· f·ishoi.ng oi.ndus try . M r . S fH ~ d k e r· , ( u t' g e 1·. h f:~ g o v E~ r· n me n i: t.o g-.:ive cons :ideri:!Uon to this pc)l· .il:'ion .

II : ·i.s 111y pl.c )i. '\SI.In~ noiJJ, M r· . ~:; p E:! a k e r , to f>r' E.> s e n t· -.:i t. -L o Ud s li011s:~ <; o Hld; : .i.l·. t.~oril l. lw pr·t :!st ,~nl:~!d 131)17 June 23, 1988 Vol XI l.o UH ,' pr·op~:H' d~~par·tJnen 1:. Thank you. MR. SIMMONS : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : Thf:~ hon. UH~ rnelllb(-:!t' for· For·tunE:~ - Hermitage. MR . SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I rise, and in so doing l-.ab>. plt->.clsur·p i.n supporting the petition so ably presented by my friend and colleague for LaPoile (Mr. Mitchell). He talks abo u t an i. s s u e IJJ ~It c h n t~ e d s to be addressed without delay.

We have seen what has happened to ;Jw p~?.o p l <,' t n ~>i: l_r:WJrE:'tl c e and Lawn through the neglect of a situation b ~~ y o 11 d L h (,' 1,~ l. ~>. IH~ n l: h h o u r . T h a n k s to the effor·ts of the Minister of d n d 0 l: h f~ t' p e ()pl. to' ' . t. h a r. F·i. s ht'!T' i {~! >I si t.ual.ion ois r·E:~solved, at least r 0 t' l: Ill· :! p t' (,, s en ; ·. I in ~) L L.ctiJJr·e n c rc> and Jn Lctwn. Rose Rlanche is another matter. 1 hu S d 111e c offlpi :UlY. or· Lh(~ S dlfl <.-> individual, Mrs TJng, is i. rl V 0 l. V Nl .

H E! r I'' IJJ ~:! h l'l V e 3 8 5 signatories, plus hundreds of 0 Uwr· people l.~oJho r:H'e E:~ ff e c ted I as the member has indicated, by this IHI C tH' l: d t rl t y . So, my plea to the minister insofar as he is able, and I recognize he is dealing with a p r· i. v ct t. e en t e r· flY' is e company , but I want to join with the gentleman for· l.aPoile i.n mak ·i.ng d plea that insofar as it is within t.he rn-L n :i. s t . e r· 1 s c d p a b i .l i. t y , 1· h ~~ rna t: t. e r· be expedited. Let the axe fall, or · 1 n r U1 f:' u n c e r· l: at n l : y -~ n d , a n d let the other shoe drop.

I. et the fH:>opl .(~ of Rose ~ Aldndw knotJ. exactly what is golng on Jnst:eac of, ·in Uris t:i~Sio ~ , IJ.Jr :d .L ing unl-. .il No. 62 R3Sl7

the eleventh hour. I d rn s u r e i +:. IJJ d s rHl o v e r· s -L g h t o n the part of th e member for LaPoile t-.l'lat, and I rt~a1iLE:~ UH~ peU.t..ion is from Rose Blanche, but I am sur· e he , .... ,o u 1. d lAid. n t. l-. o say t.: hE:' sa nH,~ things insofar as the Port aux Basques p 1 an !-:. t s con c f:~ r· n ~~ d . T I·_ -j_ s -the sam£:! s:ituat :ion here . I fully t' E~ C 0 g tl"i L e t. 1-J d -\-.

IJJ 1'1 d l: IJJ h •::1 l.:f;!lHH ' IJ.ri l.J. be done about the onE:! ought to be done o'\bOIII: UH~ ol :hi:H', l:)l::~Cdl.l:>r ·' 1~1!::' ar ·e dea] ·ing tJJiLh t:he sc.-une owner ·Hld Uw s.-.~lllf~ t·er·r··i .l.>l.t:! d ·i 1 r-~mm.-~, wh~ ·!r·p hundr'E:!dS of peoplE:! iH 'e J eft i.n l.imbo, noL knnt_.~. ring for· scn·c~ whE:~UtE>r' i.hosE:' p] f:lni s, of Rose B1dn chc:' .~ncl Por ·l·_ diiX rld s qtiH :; , dt'l::' Puer· going -Lo opE:'n aged n. l ndE~~ ~d. -Lf one IMer·e a gatnbl. ·i.ng man, I suppose you would say, bc'lsE~d on what hds happened -Ln ~.)1-- ..

I dlllrence and Lal..lm, t.he chances are tht~t Mr ·s Ting ell : l:he 1noment. i.s lllhislling in the wind, hoping against hope, that l-i.1ne l..lli.l.l ball here out, that by the time the n e x t W l n t c-'! r· f L s h e r· y c orne s a r o u n d , things wiJ1 improve for her. Well, hope ought to be based on a 11 t. t-.1 e more ~~-han j us t 1.1.ri. s h F u 1 Hdnk~lng, jt_ ought t.o be based on SOlliE~ ev i.d~::HJce rlnd some pl.anrdnq. Fr-tHtl my knou.l1edge of those two si.tudL i.ons in Rosf:~ Al~~nch~~ dnd Port aux Rdsques, I cannot see t--.h;~[ -_ I~H :1 cr.ln be~ opl:'i .nrisl .Jc: dboul-.

HH:! r· EW p e n i. n g of tho s e p 1 a n t s e v e n rwx [-_ w·i n t·_f:H' und<:H' r.,r·:; ·r:i.ng I:; 1 c,! cHi e r s hi. p . ~-)o, ~1t'. ~)pt:'abH ', [ i~d!<C :~ pl:~i:lSIIt'c-:' -.in suppor·-t.oing the pr·ayE: ~r of tht~ FH~ 1.: .l1 · · i o n p r · c:: s (~ n h:~ d b y UH,~ gentleman for· LCJ.Po-.i]E:~ and I join h:i.111 in h ·i.s dpp< ~<:1l. i:hc:tl-. i~ht~ m.::tl .:i-:or· be E:'Xpt::!dj tE:!d so UtE:! pE:~oplE:~ of Rose R l. a n c h e d n d t: h E~ p e o p l. ~~ o F P o r· t d u x RasquE•s not be left j n limbo any rurther .

L.3518 June 23, 1988 Vol XL M r· . ~3 p e a k e r· , .l n s o f a r· a s t h e p e o p 1. E:' of Port aux Basques are concerned, of cour·se, U d s 1:, r·eal.ly a double whammy because they are the same pEwpJ.c->. who on Munday had altnost a dE !at:h sentence passed on them in t.EH'tfiS of th!::~ irllpr:lct. MR. MITCHELL : Do not be nasty, now . MR .

SIMMONS: 1\1 o , i l: i. s no l. i:l q ' 1 <:' s L i. o n of b c~: · L n g nasty, as the member says , it is a qiJeS[. -i_ l)il or <;l-.al .ing 1.:1-W t't~o'll i. i:y c'lS it i:iffE:!Cts the community of Port diJX n.~:;qll<~·; . l do nol: th: i.nk l.he ruembE:H' would a] lege for a moment 1:hc'li-. 1~1! -Ji·d : happ~Hl!::~d on r.llonday is cl happy thing for Port aux Basques . [ 1-. i. s i'l j oH ' t' j_ n g t h i. n 9 I a n cl .l. t maybe had to happen in time, but I do no!: t:hi.nk r:1nybody should sugge:st it is a happy event for l-he p eo p 1 e o F Po r· t. au x B a s q u e s , what happened on Monday with the sign 'i.ng of the r·ail.way agr·eement ..

Not, only the uncertainty about Uw jobs 1-:ht>r'f~ i.nsofar · as Marine Atlantic and Terra Transport are concer ·ned bul :, nf' cour·se, before all of that, the closure of the fish pldnl:. bE'!Cdust~! oF Mrs T.ing's financial problems is a double 1.1.1hr.,wuny, dS I sdy. s C) [ i'\ p p (~ o::ll ,._C) L h (:~ g () v r~ r· n mE! n t. I through the Minister of fjsher.ies, 1~1ho ·is IHH'<-) ·i.n l.hE! r:hr:lmbc:H', t.o do their best, to use thejr best

C) f r·i. c c,~ s Blanche l. () and r· H s o 1 IJ c,~ Port. aux :; ·i l-.11 ;_'\I-. i. on:; e1 L I h ~~ possiblE:' opportunity. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Lhc,~ ROSE! Basques C::' a r l. i t'' s 1~. T h P. h o n . Uw M i n i. s h->. r of F 'i s h r.:! r· j_ <'! s . MR . RIDEOUT: No. 62 R3518

T h i.i n k you , M r· . S p 1::1 a k cH' . a rn ~~ E:' r· y ll c• p p y t o h i:l v e t h e:~ oppor·llil'l·i i y i.O 111<-\!U:~ d r:~I.~J t'(~lfliH'k~> l.t1 ~;upp(lr·t of the pe·U t.ion pt'HS:~nh;~cl by lilY col.l.c~d911t~ rr·orn I dPoll c:~ (Mr·. M'itcheJ.l). Obviously Lhc~ ppiLl.ion, ~;tgm'cl by ~)fll I" e s i d EHd . of R o s E:~ Ell a n c he , H a r b o u r l .. e Cou and D-i .anlond COVE:'. ueser·vc:>.s <-HId , I c ct n as sure t~ he House , wi 11 t'(->.ceiv(~1 l.hE>. lmmc:>.c:IJ,:\t.e at-.i~.Hnl:i .on oF the government of this Province.

We:~ have no lnt.<;>nt: ion of We\ i. ti.ng unti1 the eleventh hour to ensure, a.s best we can, +-.hat Lhe pr·obll->.ms facing Rose B1anche and, for that tnaU.er·, Por·t dUX Basque:1s as 1Aie11, ar'E:' e~ttended to and reso1VE!d as quickly as poss lblc:~. [ tAJan t i-o rE>.rrr ·i. nd LhE! Ho11 q:! governriiE!nt did not t.ue~j t. until the l->.1 eve n L h how;("' l: o tTy t: o t' lc' so 1 v f:' UtE:~ s:i 1 uCJ.tj on facing St.. I awrence i·\ n d I. eWJrl e ilJw r . T 1: j 1 J s 1: s o hdppened that govPrnment tAJas not cwen dl~Jdt'c:• or I !Jn ~d.l·tli-\Lion unU .J.

Apr· i l. ? :1, and following bPing madE:! 1'\l~k\r 'l~ or ihH <;"i.i.IJC-\ti.on, T Lh-i.nk, lA If! rn o v c-• d IAJ 'i. ·l It 01 l 1 h a s t e , a n d r () r' i II n d I. e l y I • ~ s •.-\ t' e s I I l. l: () r I. h i:\ [-_ ' l.~oH~I"E> dbl.e to ~;ee both operat:ions t'edc L_j v •. -l.t-nd yes h:'r·d •. -\y. 1: do noL l·.htnk 'i.t i.s 1-.ol~t-l11y fdi .r· to sCJ.y at the moment, at least, L h a l: Pot' 1:: a. u x Ad s q u e s 'i s j n exactly the same situation. My undt-'!r'!>tand'ing is the to1A1n counc i.J. of the Por·t aux Basques is very actively wor·king tAI"l th Mt·s.

T i.ng t:o try to put together a package wh .ich tAii11 $ee the reactivation of the fad li t.y. I·L may end up be'l ng j n the same boal-. Ti: may t~nd up bt:dng .in LJH~ same siLuation. Rut I can assure t_ he h on . g ~~ n 1-.1 (:Hild n , t: h f>. p (>. o pl.(~ of R o s c->. R l cHIch E:~ , Port dux R as que s and d t' 0 d. H1dl ,..,,e 1~d. J.l no l. l:w I. 3!:) 19 June 23, 1988 Vol X I cl-.i ll y d id l I) ·i. 11 y .

WP 1Mi1J be folloL .. iLI!9 Lhrough on l.IJ j :; l,l)'j i.h i~ ll_ hd•) l I" oHJd IJ.J'i th dll urgency to I'::Hlsure t.hat what(wer · h <-l. :; L o b-(,' d o n l'~ ,..,, i 1 1. be d o n c:~ s o that uJI'll'::'n the nor-rnal fishing St~i:1SOI'l C:Oifln:; <H'OIIIld "i.n dl'lOI::her· couple of months or so on that C:Ot'tlC:!r' or i·:hl~ :.-Jouthi.J.JE~st Cod.st:, if it· is humanly possible, those p l "' n t s tAl i. ll ~H>. i. n o p e r· d. 1:: L o n . SOME HON. MEMBERS : He a r , h t:~ a r· ! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

At lhis stage, I would like to lJ.J e l. c o 111 e t. o I·· h c;! g d l 1. e r· y a delegation from Gau]tois, H r:! r· rn j_ L •'~ y E:' , a n d ~-) u r::1 l C o v e , l E! d b y Mayor Wi1fred Roberts. SOME HON. MfMBFRS : Hf~i:\t', he.-l.r! Orders of the Day MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order . MR. SPFAKFR: A p o i. n 1: o f o r d ~>.r· , Uw h o n . L h e::~ member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr·. Sped.ker, Your Honour IAJ i.ll recal1 that on Monday this House l.I.Ja s adj ou t'ned T run sorry!

The business of the House was interrupted at five o'clock when Your Honour left the Chair. 0 c~ b d 1:: e I.AJe n L on on 8 i 11 1 4 at seven o'clock, and continued unti] ten o'clock. Th<,~ Houst->. sat aga'i.n the next day, and Your Honour, instead of ct::~ll :i ng Or·ders of Llw Day, recognized the member who had been ~; p f:~ <:~ k ·i n g l,lJ ~w n You r· : I o n o u r· a n d No. 62 R3519

qu.ih>. properly so - interrupted debate:~. I use the word ' 'L n t e r-r u p t e :.:1 ' i. n the parl .ir:ullc->.nt.ary sense. Debat.e consc .:>quenUy ensued all day on Tuesday, from two o'clock to five o'clock, or· l.o~Jhdtever t.irne U.JdS left after the daily routine of busi.n<.:>ss hdd b~::~en done, and t•Je wE:!

ITL ".i n to a s e v e n o ' c J o c k s e s s j o n , and at h:Hl o'clock l .. h<.:> rnernb<.:>r· for White Ray , the Minister of F :i. s 1'1 (~~ r· 'L Co' s I U.Jd s s p (·~ rl k oi. n g ' T h ·j ~; lJ.Jd s on ltH:•~;day E~~JPrt:ing at ten o'c]ock, tJ.Jhen Yot.tr' HonotJt ' dgr.d .n IJ.Je ll., actual Jy ·t hP mE:!ITd:wr· for· ~d .. John's ~>oul .h, Uw M i ni .~;l.t'•t' oF lll'~;~ll .h (r>r ·. Co]] j ns), :ird .E:!r-r-upt E-!d t.o~r.i Ht ct point 0 r 0 r· d C:! t' 1·: () lJ.) h i. (: 11 J r· e s p () n d H c.l I i'l n d thE ·~ 1 ' a p o i n 1. of pd . v i J e g e . You r H 0 n

l) u r· :i. n l. f'! r· r· IJ p l· (~ d l·. h l:' b II~; i. n 1::' ~; s 0 r t h E~ H o u s C::! b y l e a v i n g t h E:! C h a i r· , d 11 d d g '-" :i. n q 11 :i l::~ p r· o p :H 'l. y ~; o . TllE:~J"e was no adj ournmerd :. I s a y 1-. 0 y 0 Ll t' H () n 0 u r· t h d 1-. i. r I

l) n Monday, IAJhen Your· Honour ] eft the:~ C h a .i r· - T be l.l f~ v e L h d. L y o u d i. d l·.: he r·ight t.hj ng according to Standj ng 0 r d e r· 8 of t hi s Hot J s C:' ·- t':l n d interrupted the business of the House, aL len o'clock, and on Tuesday al ten o'clock, and followed a cer·t .cdn pr·oct~dur·c.:> t:hen of recognizing the member who had been speak .i.ng IAJ~HHl hf>. i.ni-.~H-rupted, t h i:l t. L he same p r· o c e d u r e has to be f 0 l.l. OIJ.JE~ d l-. 0 cf d I) .

TL i.s nol: good enough to s.~y l:hdl: on Wednesday r.ue did something cl.i .Ffc,:~r·<:~nL, b<~r:dtJSP w~~dn:~sddy J.:; prov:idE-ld for in our Standing Or•dc,~r·s . fl: i.s Pr·.iv.:-lh~ M(~tni:H~r·'·; 11i:ly, and ned h"l .ng but nothing dare j.n Lc,~r·if.H' 1~ri .l.h l:h•~ 1-. ~~o, ·in dCtU<:'\l. fe~ct ., 11.Jhai. I <'..tiTI sayj_ng l..o Your H o no u r· i ~; l: h d 1: 1: o cJ i.'l y ' ~; s 'L l: 1: i. n 9 , o n T h u r· s d a y , j s a c on i.. i n u i:l n c e of t. he 1- P n o ' c 1 o c: k ~; · i. t.

L :i. n g o n T 1.1 ~~ ~; cJ •. ~ y rd ghi.. when Your Honour j ntE!rTupted l.:hE~ busi.rwss ·i.n 1-.he Sr:\nJE~ t;.J.:-11) <'IS L.3520 June 23, 1988 Vol XL. TUP.Sdi:l.Y - AN HON . MEMBER : (InaudibJ e) . MR. TUIK : Just be quiet now . Mr·. Speaker, when the House sat on 1--.hi:ll . dr'ly, thPn Your Honour· aga ln interrupted debate, and I say to You r· H o no u r· U1 d l-. w h i·l t ~H.:> s h o u l d now do is call upon thE ! Mj ni s ter of ::- ·i.s ht~r· ·i: ,~s. and iF h~' .is not .: in his place - I lhink he had a c:ouplr :' l:o ~·ht ':~ e rrri.rlltl ·:e:.; J.r_.:!fl : i.n his UmE>..

I believe the M:ln:ister 0 r~ r ·i. s ll n t' i I·) ~; d i. d ' T r he d i d n

C) t I -Lhen CE:!ri -a:i nJy Your Honour should .:.~J.l Uldt l)t'dlH' or bus irH:'SS and caJJ upon whoever 1~1ants to spE:'ak ·in 'L h:~ I..E:'g ·i.~;l.dliH't', bPCi .HIS<"! on Wednesday - MR. TOBIN : HrP Speaker just ca]Jed Or ·der s of i··h~~ Dc:ly. MR. TULK : He does not have to call Orders of t-. h e D cl y . H e t' e c: .; g n i z e s t h e rn e rn b e r . MR. SIMMONS : There js nothing wrong with him calling that. MR. TULK : So I wouJd ask Ypur Honour to pr·oce<.:>cl i.n that-. manner·, becau se I think j t j s the correct manner, or· o HH:'t'U.ri . s e 1:1::~ l. l. 111 E:' 1~1 h y no t-.. OR.

COI.LTNS : M r· . S pea k e r , to thai · pojnt of o r·d c,~ r· . M R . ~> P FAKER : To that point of ordE!r, the hon . 1: h (:~ r11 J n J s l: e r· of H ~-~ .-~ l t h . DR. COLLINS: Just a smaJ 1 p o j n t of c o r r· e c t. .i o n f ·i. r· s 1.: . T h ~) hun. rrH~HJbt.:>t' opp os·i. t<.:> No. 62 R3520

Sd.id I: i.nter·rupted Uw hon. Mirdster of Fisherjes, which I did n o I· . l i: ~; d y ·, i •· r · f:' , !.11 .,~ M "i. n i. s I e r· of F:i sher·iE-~s f i r,.ishE:'S off: 11 It 1njghl: be, Mr ·. ;)p~-: ~.~hH', T hdV f' d r·:i ght. l o i.idj Ol.ir'rl the deba te. 11 11 0 h , o 11 , 11 :; • ~ i. cl I h (,' m f.~ nJ b n r :; . M r· . T u 1 k , not i. hE ·: h on . r11 ern be r r or· S 1 . John':; ~ioul .h, 11 [ hdl ·() Lo J ni err·t.tpi , 11 and t:hEHl he went on f r· c>rn UH :H' ~-:~ . ~) o i. L t;J d :; .·u1 ird .E:!rr·upt ion not by me. ThE:' hon.

Moi.ni.sf:t:~r· of F'i.shE?.r· "i.ns I;JdS gt:~li ·.i ng in l o h :i rn ad j our rd n g the debate and the House l.eadHt' oppo si.b>. tnr:tdE:~ lhts interrupUon. Then, if my rnetnor·y serue,~s me corTt ::ct:l.y, goi: into a point of pr·ivilege, and he was still. r·attl ·Lng on about . t.hal: . when His Honour says, 11 The hour of ten is notAl, I hav•->. l:o d.dj our·n. 11 So in actual fact, it was the han. 1 n ern b e r· o p p o s 1. t e t..u h o i. n l.: e r· f e r· r· (->. d with the minister's speech, who was going to adjourn the debate .

M r· . s p E~ a k 1·>.r' , l·: h c-:~ t' e ·i s no p o i. n 1: o r or ·de::r herE:' . Your· Honour has Ci"'l]l.od <h'df~r·s oF l.~H~ f).~y, IAJhi.ch Js q u i t. P t. he c o rT E:: d : p r· o c e->. d u r e:~ . We hdVeO! b~ ~f.' !rl j rl d 6 0lllf:~I~Jhd l. ·i.t't'( c~gtll dt' a eLi vi ty in i his House ror· sorne l i Ill( -) I i .. ·\ s : 1' I '. ! 'l I:~ l~'rl IWc'rl 1-. -i. 0 n f:~ cl d ntJrnbr:l" of limPs, jnclud·.ing by my!;~-:~Jr . ~Jot.~>.J, I~Jh.~l: ~)l:anding Ot·det • 8 s.:~ys about th~ ,~ pr ·ocf::edi ngs going on at. l:he po ·inl: ol- c->.l.HV~ H 1 0 1 Cl.ock · IA.I!,~l.J.

H was ten o'clock at that timE:! - ··i. s : 11 P r· o u i. d e d t: h a t a 1.1 b u s i. n e s s not d:i sposed of at the termination of !:he sil-t :i.ng shall stand over· until the next sitting day. 11 It doc->.s not say tht~ s L t 1-ing day two days hence . It says, the next sitting day. Not..u, Mr. Speaker·, i. t could bC:~ ar·gued that tAJhat the order meant, but d"i.d not. say, the"~ next. sil- .t.:i.ng day when the order· is called . It doe s not say thai:, bul~ :i.l-. could be t~S21 June 23, 1.988 Vol XL d t'YIJ c,,d t.·here. l·.hi.1t Lhl'lt Indeed, .is the whl'li". i.s meanl· · .

House Leader· o n o 1 1 r· s i d t~ •; u g g '·~' <> I , · d U1 d t , i. F 1 n y rnE :mor·y SE:'rVE•s rne cor;"E::ct1y, a fet..u • I d y ~' .~.go i-\ r11 I 1 h 1::' h on . tnt:: tnb P r· s opposite said, 'No, no! Il: does no! . do Lh<:-1.1 -. ft lfll~··\11~ > l."ihH'r~ll_y what it says . It has to be the rH :: x 1-. s i. l: l. :i n g u a y 11 '( o u r· H o n o u r· accepted that point, and I have .:~ b sol. 11 h :: l y no q IJ d r r· ~~ l '"J i 1.: h Uh'l :-.. If Your Honour accepts that i. ntl~~r·pr·~~l:ai:Jon i:hal ·.

Ll-. has to be->. physically the next sitting day in L ·i.lllE:~ , :i l i. s not wh e"! n l: h P or· de r· ·i. s called or when the order comes up o r· t..u h d t e u e r· , i. l~. i. s p r· e c i s c->. 1 y t h e next sitting day. Now, Mr. Speaker, if the members o p p o s i. h~ p t' f~ u a i 1 e d o n o n e d a y wi t h that interpretatjon, they are s t u c k 1..1.1 'i. l: h i. 1-. , and today i s not thE! next sitting day to last. TuPsddy . Toddy i.s the second sitting day after Tuesday, yc->.st:r~r·ddy bf?."i.ng thE: flr·st..

Yesterday was Private Member's f).~y. r!Jr:: lflf:~tllbc,~r ·;; oppos -j l:e wer·e quj te t..u:i.thin t.hej r· r·tght t.o give 1.1 p I u~ 1: h (c' y ') () l.<d '' IJC d I p r' :i. V a 1.: ("! Member' s Day and cont -J nue on, :i. f l:lldL ~~k\: ; Uwir· i'lr·gtltllenl:. [1- f.:he<i .r· ar·gume:~nt. t..uas that t:he or·der·s gj VIO' 11 ~; l.h(: r··i_•.:Jhl· r.o conl :.:i.nul ~: on Wednesday a debate not completed IAJhc~~n l.h,,~ Holt :il-) r·ost:~ d.l: l·.~'n o 1 clock on Tuesday, they had every right l.o uo l:hi:-1.1:.

Th~-:'y could <H'gue i.t anyway, and say, 'Well., u.Je u.riJl g ·i.u,,~ up Pr·ivah~ Mr~tnbtH' 1 s Day because this is so important we t.~Ji l. 1 g e I: i. n t: o i. L . 1 NotAl, Mr·. Spc~~aker·, they sat on their hands . They made no move t..uhRlsoc->.vtH'. They clllowed the next sitting day to proceed normally and, i.n vi.C:'lAl of that., I fee1 that today has to be normal proceed] ngs a n d , "i. n d e c~ d , You r H o no u r· h a s already called Orders of the Day, and T '"''''s dbout l.:o respond t.o t:hat No. 62 R3S21

t.ollhr-Hl th:ls i··.hf:~ hon. tnemb::H' go 1: up spurious point of order. MR . rULK : on F u r· t h e r· to t h e p o j n t of or d e r , M r . Spt>.a k er· . MR. SPEAKER : Only ver·y br·iefly. The hon . the member· For· Fogo . MR. TULK: Y E>. s , v ~=! r· y b r· i. e fl. y , Y o u r· H o no u r . l haue to say to Your Honour Lhat it i. s :i.mpor· i:.an t to~H~ gf~ I~ Uli .s s l:r-d igh 1:.

T rn p 1 i. r:.i ·1. ·i n i ·. h !:'! h o n . g ~-:~ n l.l ~~' rn <:Hl ' s rE>rn<u·ks j s 'l. hcd . somE~how or · other tn('!tilb:~r·s of I.Jl'i ·; HousP h<Wf·) l'.o Lc=!l.l Y otJ r· H o t1 o tH' how t. o r· u n t. h j s I. f~ 9 :i s l. i:l l' u r· t'! . OR. COU .TI\JS : lhcli. is t.o~lhcd . you iH'e dojng now . MR. TlJI K: No, I an1 noL te]ljng you . I am j u s I: a s k j n g f o r· a n i. n l: e r· p r· e I i:\ L .i o n DR . COI_L TNS : Your· Honour · ca] led Orders of t.he Day . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: M r· . S fH >. a k e r , y (:' s t e r· d •-~ y Wd s P t'i. v r.l t e Member's Day. DR .

COLLINS : We>.J], ih:is js governn1E.~nt day . Ml~ . ru1 .. K : ThiHik you ver·y t:\ b 0 I I l. l' 0 !; o:'l y J. 0 i hi:d. th-.i s ·.i ~; T u !::' s d C:'l y I•JO'l !) . D I~ . CO l.l .ll\l~) : (TnrJud:ib]e) . rnuch. I was just l' he h on . g ~~ n 1: lt ·~ Hid n gOV(c!r·nrm.Hlt day as L.3S22 June 23, 1988 Vol XL MR. TUL.K : Mr·. Speaker, if T ·'I po -L n l. o f o r· Ll ~:! r · Rrn going to make MR. SPEAKER : 0 r· de r , · pl. e a s e ! MR . TULK: Uwn T a1n going to be silence, as I ljstened to gPn t.1eman . heard in the hon.

I will say to him to clarjfy the (H·r·or, j-_hdl ·: yes, I·. he i n t e n· u p t ·i. o n was caused by me u.Jhen I rose on a po·i .n l: of o r·d ~' r· Lo ask c 1 a r· i f j c at i o n as t.o what the yoVf:'t'l'llllE:'nl : J.nl::~ildt~d 1~o do t~JhE!n l~he ot .her· two members we had to speak on n·i.ll. 14. concludl~'d thetr· dt::'bat8 . I w·ill say t.o him, that ·i·; cnr·r·~,~ci., r inh>.r-rupt:c~d Lhe p r· o c e e d j n g s , h e r e s p o n d e d , a n d Uw n T r· o ·a~ o n d. p o ·i, n t of pr:i vilE:~ge.

NouJ, l.he ~pe.'lker· r11l ~~s tlri s HouSE! and, of course, he does it a c c: o r· d i. n 9 t o l:l1 r;'! r· u 1 e s b e F o r· e us. Wednesday is Private Me m b EH' ' s

f) d y by our· S tan d l n g Orders. It is not any nE!Xt s ll: t :i. n g day . T t. is not. a sitting day on which the government has the right to call buslness. It is the next sittjng day . The day that we are in now is the next sitting day for government business i.Hld, t:h<:'!r·efore, Lue must proceed as we proceeded on Tuesday ~~ v EHd. n g i:l l: t e n o ' c J. o c k . MR. WF.LL.S: We could not have wajvE:~d it. as an 0 p p o s :i. L ·i. o n . MR. TUI..K : That :is right . W8 could not have ~~~;~·ilJt'!d Pr·i .v;.~I- .H M{~lnbt~'t·':; Day dS an Oppos:it:ion, bE!Cause if Your Honour look!; ;:1l·. ~>l· .dnd·i .ng Or·cllo!t' r,;1 l.(

l) he wjll see lhat any private membE:'t' o I- Ul'i. !; I.(~ g '.i. s l. i:l i·: 1.1 t' tc' co u 1 d h d v e No. 62 R3522

demanded Prluate Lhi:tt Your Member 1 s Day. H o n o u r' c a J. J. Therefore, c1ny trH:~utbf:H ' on I ~w could haue rnoU(:!d gouer ·muc-~n l.: s id<~ Uta t~ thj s Luoul d b ~~ P r· -.i u d h'! Me nt bet ' 1 s f).~ y . Yo u t' II o no ' 1 t' , r cJ o 1w t: 1·. h i. n k T n P {:' d to rni:!k< -' i'HtY mor ·c:• poin ts, thai we h.:~ tH:' t' ~~ ~~ c h !:' d I he ~; I. 1.1 1_3 !·) :i. n 1-. h ·i ·; I E!gj :;J i:d utne LllhE!r'e Your· Honour' made .~ t'tll ·i ng .·u1d ·~ ci<:'Ci .s i.011 Oil ~1ondi .·1::J a11d etgcd n on Tuesday.

The dt~ci ~; ion ~~~ .-~s. bt ~Cdtlsn l:ht:~ deb,'llt:' we~s ~i n1.et"rupt.ed, bE! cause the d e I:> d h ~ t~Jc1 !; no 1: •HI j o IH ' rH:' d , Yo 1.1 t' Honout" dE:!Clded to lE:'etUe the Chair· on Mondi:lY i:lnd C·'ll.l l~h1:: ~ sarne Ot 'dPr' of busjness on the next gouer·nrnent s'i.t.ti_ng day LIJh 'i.ch I~JdS f'UPSddy. M r' . S p e •'I k e r , L h .i. s i. s L he n ex t sj tt:i.ng day t.hett Your· Honour, that the Speaker, has control of .

Y e s t e r d a y I ut o u 1 d s a y t he S p e a k e r d .i.d nut . hdUI::~ contr·ol as to whc:1.1- . he couJd do, because, as I said, any pr·luate TIIPITib~:: ~r· ·i.n U1 Ls Legisl .i:ltun~ couJd haue called for Pr·iuate M~~tnber' 1 s Day. I would say to Your Honour that who'll:~~~~ ~ hdtlt ~ l.n do i··tH :Idy is l:o yo bnck t.o tAtlter 'E:! iAJe tAJer ·e orjginally on TtH~:>ddy :~tJ:~n i ng . DR. CO U TNS : FIH' LhPr ' Lo Ullc ' po ·i n L of Ot'rlt~t ', r·1r' . SpE ·!aket" . MR. ~~PFAKF R : V !':! r' y l.H' i. t~ f J. y . DR . COLI.lNS: ThE ·! hort. membE:~r is, I think, u n i. n 1:.

P n 1-. ·i. o n a l. l. y 1 n :i. s 1 <~ ~~ d ·i. n g Y o u r' Honour' . He :i s :indicating that the only u.tay U1e d~::~b"' te could hau~~ continued yest .erday, Priuate Member· 1 s Day, tJ.td S for· HHo~fll to request thE! day be waiued. It is nol ·~ t't:'quest .. MR . TULK : I 3 r,23 Jurte 23, 1988 Vol XL (Inaudible) everybody. DR . COI.LINS: No, no! Listen to mE'.

There are i".IAJO !·)t.~HH.I ·j 119 Or'dt ·'~ r··; Orw ~)Ldnd "i. 119 Or'dPr' says, 'When lhE:~ busjness .is ·iniHr 't'tJpi .~-:' d i.~i ·. ,,,l, ~u':'n 0 1 t:1ock, l.h f'! dE:'bi:th:> is lc.tke rr up where j L i i n· i ~; h H d 0 n i.l1 f~ ·:~ x l. s .i. t I -j 11 9 day.' That is one Standing Or -dHt'. ()no UH :'t' S h .'lncl ·i. itg Or·d tH ' says, 'Wednesdays she1Jl be PrJuate M l'!tttbt ~t' 1 ~; Dr.'I.Y . 1 The t'r:' <'t r' l:~ Lt..uo S t a n d j n g 0 r· d EH' s .

Now, what the hon . member · should haue done, but: h~ ~ saf·. on hi .s hand s and did not do, is he should haue S<'l i d, 11 Mr'. ~:Jpedker·, tAJould you resolue the conflict between these t.IAJO ~3tandJng Or·det'S, 11 tAJ~l"Lch you did not do. You sat on your hands. You allowc.:.d the norrnal proceedings to go ahead, and that ·i.s IAJhat : we ar·e dolng today, the normal proceedings . MR. SPEAKER : 0 r' d e r' , p 11::1 a s e ! My r·u] ing on the day WE! rE!SUrned d <:' b d L f:' on L h ·i. r' d r' u d c! i n g tAJcl s ba s P d on a number of precedents . I gav e Lhe qlloi; ,,l :i.ons Lo UH~ hon . mernber· s.

Now, T antid paled i:oday. I lookc-~rl dL loi'H:~ 111aLt .er' fur ·i~h ::•r' r'lnd I t h o u g h t t he r· e rrd g h t be s om e t:~xpldnal :ion Lo tlli :l!<t:~, and for' t.hat: reason I haue gone into it Jn some dl:~Ld'i.l. . l should l. ·ike i:lL t.hl s t:ime to elaborate on the ruJ ing I 111 d d t~ o n .J u n e ?. 1 t.o~d. l h r' e s p e c t t o Standing Order No. 8. I said at that time the precedent of 1~1hich 1 I~Jas al.IJr.lrf:~ suggest<->.d a debate adjourned at eleven 0 1 clock had L o be co n t l ntH~ d a t t. he n e x t sitting.

I was not entirely c o rn f o r' t d b l. e tAl :i. l h l h a t i d e a 1.11 ~d c h f] ies in the face of gouernment 1 s p r' e r' o g i:l L:i u o t. o d e t e nwi. n e 1.: h e o r d (? r No. 62 R3S23

0 r b u s -j_ n (~ s !) 0 n d i.~ y :; I~ I h n n govE>rnrnc--!td :. busin~~ss has p r· P c <'! cJ :'! n 1: 1,, ;) :; 1~1~:~ 11. , i 1. j_ s <'1 ~-- v;:n·j a nee uri L h pr·ocedure in other j IH' i ~;d.i_c 1 .. ions hdv·i .ng s .i.111'i J <H' worded orders, in particular, in 01:: tdiAJd. Never·l:heless, r adher·ed t.o Lhe pr·ecedents of this House of which I IAJas awar·e. Slncc>. th(:Hl, j nadVE!rtent] y, as a matter of fact., an i.ncidc-:-ncr~ hds ~H:!en found of an 11:00 p.m. adjournment when a bi.1l was be ·ing debo.'lt:~~d Fol.l.oi~Jed by a Wednesday and Private Mc-:-mber 1 s busirH:~ss.

On i.:l-11:' Thursday dE:·batE:! 1..uas not resumed on L h <"' i:l d j o u r n ~'! d d 1:! b d I: c->. . r h E:' () d d r· C.:! s s in Rep] y dE:!bate prE:~vious] y i-ldj OIH'rH~d IAJd:; r·:~sumPcl. Th;~ L-. '~'"''' ot1 Apr·:i] 7, 8, and 9 of 1970. On (lpr·i .l ?R or Lht-:' Si .·\nte Y<''.-lt' dE! bate wr.A~-; i.idj OIH'nPd on a bj 11 a1 1.1.:00 p .m. On lh':' fnl.loiJJing 1lay d ru u m b E:!l" s o u g h t J P a v e i. o d E:! b a t e a n Ut'9f:'rll: rnd 1: h >.r' llrJc:l:'!t' :)I .• Hld j ng Or·det' 2 3 . T h 8 I" E>. quE" s t: was den i '"! d .

T n r·u ling c•h i·w Lhd J t-hlo! ~)pt~d hH' poird.Pd ou L thEH'e wer·e a number of or·der·s IJJh 'i ch (_dOVl>.r'niiH~nt 111ighl:. C:r'1l.l which would provjde the o p p o r· t u n i. I·~ y of d e b a t: i. n g the u r g c-:- n t matter . In other words, there was no sugges t.'ion tha 1: Lhe bi.ll be .ing debe:d:ed at. e1even o 1 clock must be ca11ed. I, Lherefor·e I rnus t rule that: Hwr'(~ J.s no obligation to return to the adjourned debate. 0 0 0 DR. COI .I.JN~ : 01~der· No . 6, RiJ l 23 . Mot:ion, St-"C:OI'Id Y'E :!i:ld-.ing II An n c I.

To (l rtlt'i'l cl r-1 w I 3 S24 JunP 23, 1988 of a bi 1.1 , I <::' g •:-1 l. A · i d Vol. XI. rlcl, 1.97~')." (Bill No . /.3) ~-1R. ~PF!'lKFR: The bon. the Min .ist er of Jus LicE' . MS V F.RGE: M r· . S p r->. a k en· , t h t s i s 111 y b 'i.J . 1 . T had spoken briefly to explain the pr i.ncipl~~ of the bill. uJhen l t. came up for second reading debate a few days ago. One of l::he member's opposlt.c-:- ·in the official Opposition spoke and the LeddE!Y' of L~w NDP, Lhr-:- member· for Menihek (Mr. Fenwjck), was spc-~ak-i_ng on ·i_l·. IAJhc->.n I~J<"! foi.ni .shPd that day. I wo~Jd be happy to I i.~ b:! rn y I.

I I r'i'l iHl d t' P b II t t. he p o .L 1'1 l s made by the members opposite and COinplc:!l-.1::' Lh:~ d~)bd.l .t', bul·~ T wil.l. sit down for the ruember for· ~-1r:~n·iht-:'k l.o concl1Jcl1', -.i.f ~w 1..uoi.sht'S l:o do so. MR. SPFAKER : The hor1. the member for Menihek . MR. FFNWJCK: Mr·. Speetker, we have ac-Lual1y been .~bl.t~ Lo c:onsuJ I. :.-d .l.h d nu1nb~H' of t he 1 ega 1 a i d ] ;:-i. ~J y e r s s i n c e l hE! n IJJ h o d t' E~ i. n v o l. v e d IAJ :i. 1··. h t t , a n d we have received more information on ·i.l:, uJ~l'i.ch rnakE:~s us 1nor·e comfortable with the intenU on of thP l.E~gislation.

Speci.ficall.y, I under·s Li:.nd that one of the biggest problems was 1-:. h ~~ ca. s P of Uw - 1:. o 1 J s E~ a t e r· m to phrase it - biker 1 s gang from G r' rHl d F "111. s I t r· (-l. c ctll . I 11 t h Ed r case there were a lot of d r· u g - r· e J..:-\ 1:. 1::~ cl r: h a. r g :~ s 1 a .i d ag a l n s t. the j ndi viduals conr:-erned and al1 or 1.1-Jr.~m, Or' r'1 Vl'!r'y ijT'Odl: rlUrJlbEH' of t lw rn, e.. x e r· cis P d their· r :l g h l u n de r l.hc-) pt'l,~S~ ~nl: t'1~911l.i'IL:i.ons l··.o chouse the'i.r- OIIJn lawyers.

I·t is rny llildl)t'~; l.c:HH:I-i.n<:J l:ht:' 1 t~g;~l. bJJ l For thal per·haps u1as in excess of $/.')0,000 or· mor·t-:~, .u1c.l lhr<::'i .-\l.E~I'l!'!d No. 6 2 R3524 -

at that polnt to even bankrupt the legal aid system, or at least deny r· e s o u r' c e s f o r· l-: h e 1 e g i. t-. i. rna b~ objects of the Legal Aid Soc:iety 1.4.1 h i C h , 0 f C 0 U Y' S P , i. S t. 0 ~H ' 0 V :i. d l:' proleclion for those who cannot a f for· cl i L ~":o, on l.hai ba sis, this was o b v ·i o u s J y d l. o o p h o l. <~~ U1 d L l1 i:l d l o bE·! co v E:'r' E'! d , c.t n d J u n de r· s l. and that L h d l ·i ~; n n lc' o 1- I·~ h u c d s ::~ !; o t' n n f'' o 1- i hP si t.u<-.:d .:ions 1 "'a<Li ng 'l.o this pdt'l . .icul.:~t' ch.·1ngt~· i.n ·i.l.

Wt~ ~;[ :·ill. dt '~o' d biL l.IJ'H~dSY ·i.n l:ht:' sE'!nsc~~ thc-t"t Ji. i.s such c.t swe(!ping chdngt! ft'OIIl d considE~r'.:-lblt~ rll.llltl:l,~'t' of p8op]e, we would assume, now h"' v "i n g f'.i'H:~ t' 'i. 9 h t t· o c h o o s t~~ the i. r· own JatAJyer·s, to a very sma1J numbfH', ped11-1ps b~Jo or· thr·ee a year, depending on how many c i:1 p i. t ~ 1 c a s t! s IJ.J H h a v e ,.~ a c h y e a r' . Thal makes us fee] a bit unsettled about j.i~.

T h €~ time ln-irdsler · pr·orn ·i.sE:'d, UH>. lasl~ we debated this, to give us some dc ~' tdi.l•; db o u l~ Lhe nutnber of crin1E~s lnvoJ vPd, p r->. o p l. e c h d r· q r:! d . ~j h E-~ i s r :i. l'i j s h <:' cl I bE:' t.~ 1- r~ r· p o s ·i. l~. i u n whole question of Lh:is bill . the number of d n d p ~~ r· h ,,, p s ~~ h <~' n I~Je wi.J J be i n a l .. o a cl d r· ''! ·; s Uw l.hE:! pr·'inciplE:~ of 1~10111 d nncl let q I I ;~ S l·. 'i. 0 l'l S debdi.E'. b~~ gl del l:o s i. L do1~m ·1 he -. mi n:i st.E:!r ansruer l'lOI~J the lJl'i _ s I~JH bt'OI.Ighi'. 1Jp in r~R.

SPF.rlK FR : T f l. h e:• rrd. n is t. e r· ~peaks r101u, she I~) i 1 1 c ] 0 s e t h ~~ d e b r:'\ L !:~ . The h () n ' t.: he M i. n i. s I r~H' 0 r .r I j s 1: i c (~' ' MS VERGF : lhank you, Mr. Speaker . As 1 before, L3£.)2S expla1nt~d this when I amendment June 23, 1988 spoke was Vol XI. r'<->.ques t.<->.d Legal Aid ~; f:~ !::!lrlS i·. hd t. Sc.io - Bell no L br ,~ composition Con11n:i ss "i.on. by Lhe NE:~wfoundl.and Commis<don . Now, it t h f:' 1;; H. t b '-~ r· For· M o u n t. Island (Mr.

Barry) may 1-.. -\tni l J.,:tr· I.1.Ji l::h l .. he of the Legal Aid Under our ]E:'g :isJation the COJIJIII'i .:;~; ·i.nn COirlfH'i.s,~s Lhr·(~P rE:!pr·e s e ni:a t i v e s of t.he I aw So c:i ety uf Nl~I~J[ -!)IHHil.. :·li1U. T hlc' pr '<->.sent TTIEH!Iber·sh:ip actually numbers f:lve l)oL ·ing ntPIIll:wr·~;, l.hr'p(:! of 1~1hom dt'f:~ I dlAJ Soc :i.e t. y nom :i nee s . 1 he Chair ·i~; anoUllc'r' rlll~lllbf:'r' or HH'! LdW Soclei·y, Mr . AJ1an Cau]E:~, QC .

T l·w r· ~~ i s "' 1..:-l y p e r· s on who i s a voting membE!r, and then there are b..~Jo f'!X ol-1-i.ci .o HH~~mber·s, 1::11!:' Director of the Commission and the D e p u l y M i. n i s t P r o f J u s l i. c e . ;,o lh(>. l.egal Ai .d Co111nri.sslon rnade:~ a request for this change to our act. The rna i.n r·eason for l:he request is that the Commission Felt. Lhat. i.t is no l.ongc->.r appropriate to glVE! lE!gal aid c l. i.e n L s , c h a r· g ~:· d l~r·i t. h ofF c->. n c <" s carrying a maximum of Jife irnpr··i.~>tHllllfH1r, r~11 unrl->.tt~~r ·'~'d choi.ce of a lawyer .

Inst:ead , they call E!d for Lhe c l'hHH.!Jl>. r·(~ s l:r·-L ct. i ng u n f e t. l e r· e d c hoi c e t: o p e o p 1 e chat'9E!cl •~r .i. lh ~,~ssenU;'Il.ly mut'clE!Y' or· offences carrying a minimum of l. i. r (~' ' F"' c 1: rIll l. y I 1~1!.:~ cl

C) n 0 t h d up UE:!ry many such charges :in the run !) 1- d y e iH' i. r1 !) I I t' p t' 0 U ·i. r1 ( t:' . This ; h~o~ the changE:! is wjthin the terms of cosl : -sh;u· ·ing i:lljt'c,~enrent ·. bel:IAJPen Go v e r· n rn e n t of C d. n ad a a n d o u r P r· o v · i. n c c,, 11 n d , i n d ~>. e d , d g r· (·>. e rn E! n t: s between t.he federal government and oth:H' pt'ov ·i.nces. JL dCCOt'dS IJ.JLLh the present practice in some other provinces of Candda. The Legal Aid Commission, viewins Uw c->.xperience of Lhe L::1st. couple of years, was particularly aJ.arrnE'c No . 62 R3 5/ S

by t.he case aJluded to by the nlf:~rllbPt' rot' Mc.:.n ihlc'l< U1t '. feilb J"i.ck)' a casE-' ln "e: lvjng a numlH:~r of pr~opl(~ dldr ·g ~· d tAri .l.h l:t'i:\rr.i.c!cirH.:J i,n d I'' lJ 9 !; U II U E~ r· ·1 h e N a r· C 0 i. i C S C 0 1'1 t r 0 1 ()cl:, sor111 ~ ui ~ 1~1hom llHH't::' not: t>.V~~n r· E:! ~d . dent~. of our P 1" o vi n c e , who , unde:'r' l:he c~cl: r:1s i.l- now t'f~t:\ds, choosE>. their own lauJyers, and each c h o o s e:~ d. d i f f e r e n t 1. d. w y e r· f r om l: h e:~ pr·ivate bar·.

There was a very 1 e n g L h y t r· i a 1 a n d L he t. o t a 1 1 e g d. l aid bi11 for the trial was very, very substantial. rn t::he v i.ew of l::he:~ l_ega1 Aid Commission, jt resulted in a poor allocalion of availclbl~ public funds for J E!ga1 aj d. Money was e a t e n up 'i. n t h i:l t. p a r· I: i. c u 1 a r· c d s r>. t.1J~dch could havE:' been much better spr'f: 'dd around !:he Pr·ov ·i.nct:! l:o o·t:hPr' dE:!serv:ing i:ippli.ce:tnl-.s for c i. v 'i.l l <>. 9 d J. d i. d .

The b I I d r~ ,,, 1-. r \) r· ()I lr' 1, ,,~ y ·~ 1 () i d Cornrn:iss.i.on l1dS gr·ot.~m by le:~aps ctnd bound~; si .i1r :H i.ill'' Cunmd .•;s ·ion IJJo -~·; set up bflck 'in l'.hf! m:id 1970s. Righi : ilUIJl i.hr :• l:Ol.i ·ll. brJdy1,~1: i~ ; iibout. $/..

r) ndll-.ion. The Conuu:i ss ·i r)n :,•mpl ny~ ; four·l -,,,en ~; l:i-lrr 1awy~'l"S 'in v,_~r:ious offices around i--_h(:' Pr ·ovi .ncP. . l IJJenl· . t.hr·ouyh i:ht:~ list of loce:ttlons when I spoke befor ·e. T.ndf~Pd, t.hc.:. Couun.i .ssion i.s about to expand by adding another office and tt.~Jo mor'P. l.i :\IJJyers . The s t. a f f 1 auJ y e r s do over h a 1 f Uw legal aid case]oad and clo3e to hd1f lclst year was done by l::he prj vat.e bar.

The spending by the Legal Aid Counni.ss-Lon to Lhe prjvate bar has g~own p t' 0 p 0 t' t: i () t1 r't t. (,~ 1-() t: h e -L n c r' 1::1 a s e i. n t.he oVEH'a11 1 ~'gal budget. Last y c-:> i:l r , p .:1 y nH:! n 1--. s l·. o l. dl.ll y c-'! r· s i. n prive:ttE! pr·e1ct:ice surpassed $800,000, Ufl.r'SIIS nnl.y i-lbOI ,Ii'. $ 3 ? 5 , 0 0 0 j_ n J 9 8 3 .

That ·1 s . a lfl:~dSUr'f:! or \"hr::' l·rr ~fiHHH :IoiJ~; lJ11pr·ovc-1mNd ·.in legal cdd SE'rv :ice 1.3r.)/.(j J 1 1 rH,~ :n , l 9 B 8 Vol XL to pE>oplE' :in our Pr·ovi.nu~ u1ho 11E:'ed l:iH' •;et'IJ'i Cl''; or 1 i:l.IJJ':}r :!t'S drld t'lt'f" not able to r:tffl,:··d e'itlwr all UH:' co~;l. or · P•H'I ol :IJr' cost. Thlc' l:~df:'T'dl pr·ou ·i.nci .i:\1 cos L sharing agr·eement pr·ovides for LhE! i-c,~dl,'t'id . gou:H'tllllenl: cover· ·i.ng 90 percent of the cost of criminal lr::'gdl d.id, but only 50 percent of the cost of civil legal aid.

The CoHlrnissi.on gi.vt~s pr·lority to family work but is not able to d E:1 a l '"'' i t h cl l o t o f L h c-:> o t: h e r requests for ciui1 legal aid that COIIH~ fot'U.Jclt'd. So , 1: he r· e i. s a de s ·i_ r· e to c o n t i n u e the improvement of legal aid ~; e r· 1; i. c e s d n d u s f~ t h e b u d g e t: .i n 1:: h e best way possjble to benefit the mos!: people . :)o U1dl i.s r·c,~all.y the r·ationale for the r·equest of 1:1-H:' l. <:' y .:-ll. (l i. d C omm j_ s s i. on for· L h i. s change.

Now T l.lloul d like t.o addr'E! s s l:y~H'! o/- r:r· ·i.Jil i.na l of/-r :!rlCI'!S drld approxime:tte number· of J.egaJ cl:if:'nl :~> r~JilO flldY I:Hc' d!-f~~ch~d this ciJatJge, judg-jng by the I.: he->. aid by -thE! (,~xpr-:·r· :i.f:~rlC!::' or IIH ~ 1 .~-;i: Yf:'•.H' Ot' so. Ofi-t.:.nc:t>.s c;:H't'y·i .ll9 ,_., max:i .rnurn of life are relatively few in n u 111 b f:H' . nw y d n i. n c l u cl e d r· u g trafficking under The Narcotic Conlrol net . They i.ncl.ude break and enter into a dwelJ.jng house, kidni:lpping, extortion and aggravated sexual assault.

Over the J.dsl- . yei:lr' T: '"'n t~old by the Legal Aid Commission, there were about 100 legctl cli.ents charged with those kind of offences. T h o s ~~ c l. i. E:H1 1: s h i:1 d ··:\ u n F E' t: t: e r E· d choice of lawyers. A legal. aid c l i. f:H1 L i. n ~H. . .J o h n 1 s c o u l. d h a v e c h o s en a 1 au1 y e r j n Corner B r· o o l< . n cl ·ipnl: i.n Cor'I 'HH' Rrnok could have chosen a lauJyer jn private p t' i:\ t; 1·. 'i. r: (! i. n s l-. . J 0 h n I ~; • T h e I . 1-~ g r:-1 l A ·1 d Co rnrrd s s ion p C:t j d the b j 11 uJ h t c h No.()/. f0':>26

had to be made out in accordance with the legal did tariff. I f t-h i s c h cHl g f> g o 1:?. s l h r· o u g h , l.. he lE:'gal Aid Commi s sian would propose to dtd~ennLnc~ IJ.Jhi.ch lat~.JytH' i.s as signed Lo t.hose kind of clj ents i n f u t· u r· c->. . r h e I.

P g ,., 1 n·i d C ClTilnri s s j on may as 5 i g n one of its sl'.:i:lff l.diJJY~>.r's l·:o t:hos~-:~ Cd.ses, or· r~~ay c~~;~;jgn the casE' to i'i laiJJyer· in pr· iva I~~ pr'•:-lC L·i .ct• ·in iJw .u·n;.'l 111hrH't:~ il ·w cl:iEHil. livE:!S and lAJhere the tr·j ;'ll is 1-o Cornrwi ~; s i.on l.d !< ~~ lAri .ll p1dce. be R11 L i:1ble ; h (~ +.o (>. x c.~ r· c i ~; <:' i. l s cl ·i ~; c: r· c,~ I: .. i. o n I. o d ~; s 1 1 r· n a compwl.EHI'l.

Jegol I"E?.pr·esE:'I'ltat:.ion r 0 r· d 1 1 :--. h "' c .l. : i. (! n L ~; b I I I ' i:' 1'. 1. h l:~ ~;orne~ tiriiE:!, to tr ·y i.o use the budge!: ·in Ull:' b~?.~;L ~~~.:~y po~;s ·i.b1~-:' Lo c n n s E~ r· v e mo n c,~ y For o t. hE:! r des e r· vi n g appl. i.cdnLs. Mr·. SpE>.aklH', al.l:hough UH>. 1E>.g,:J.l. aid budget has grown quite s i. g n 'i. F .i. c cHl 1:. 1 y , c e r' t a ·i. n1 y d t d rn u c h more rapjd pace than the growth in the econo1ny or· i.n l.h~-:~ over·aJ.1 p r· o v j n d a l b u d g P t , s t i 11 , t he r e a r l:' p e o p 1. c.:. i. n o u r· P r· o v j, n c E!

IJ.J h o require legal services who are not gf?.tt:Jng cover·t•d by l1->.gal. di.d . [ thjnk UH~ rno:;t serjous deficiency ls on the civtl side, and even people wilh sorne kjnd of fami]y pr·ob1c?.uts dt'l::~ noL g(?.I-.Ling leg."l. .:d .d cover·agE:!. Most of the people 'i. n v o J 1; f'~ cl ·i n rl.i v or· c t:' "'p p J. i. c: a!-. -;, on s and child custody matters do gE:!t l 1-~ 9 d 1 .:-1. i d c o v f:' r· r.t y t:~ , b 1.1 1: U1 1->. r· 1::~ ;-u· ''! people w:.it:h problems enforc-:ing Cl)llt'l: or·dr'~t'S ror· nJid .nl ·.f:Hli'lllCC!

I~JilO l1 <W E:' no t. b P EHI Cl b] f! t. o g e 1 1 ~~ g i'i] ;_-l. ·i. d c: o IJ ~~ r· a '3 f:' . rhr·ouyll ;~no 1.1-wr· .:-l.c 1·.' l.o bo i1droduced :r 1uouJd hope wit..hin lhe rwxl: I~JHI·~k or so, r IJJ:i .l.l. b,,~ Lalk:i.ng c.t b o u t: j n :i t :i a 1. :.i v e 5 o u r· ad rrri n 'L s i~ r· •:1 1: i o n ·i. s La k i. n g 1: o j_n,pr·ove E:•nforcemE:'I'lt. of cour· ·t o r· d f~ r· s F o r· f r:\ 111 i. l. y s u p p o r· L . NevE:~rt.hE!less, we need to, I think, L3527 Jurw 23, 1988 Vol. XI. accede to the reasonable request of HH>. legal.

Aid C:otnmission and amend the act su that the Cnmm:i.ssion l.t.J:l1l. bf ~ .-,1!>1f~ to usc-'! :.i.t.s discretion to assign Jawyers to cl'LPnh; IJ.Jho ;:u·e char·g<'•d IJJiLh offences carrying a rnax'imurn of J.i.f,,, irnpr·i .~;onHH~nL and, 'i.n that way, to try to use the budget in 1'. h l:~ I)Ji , S I~ S l: 1~1<:1. y p 0 S S "i. b J. ~~ . f'hi~; c:h.~H191::', l l'<~pc~."t:, c:onfonns t.t.d th l he r·equ:i rE:'ment. of the Fed 1:' t'i.·' 1./ pt'OV in ci .-1.1 . COS i~ ·S hd Y' i ng ctrr·angement, and :.ii w:iJJ br·:ing our P r· o 1; i n r: ~~ i. n 1. ·i rw 1~ri.

L h s o rn H u f l.. h t' other provinces of the country . Mr. SpE:'ai<E:H', the member for Mount S.:i.o vigorously H1,~ll. objected Tsland q1.1'Lt:e to this. He y d v e 1.-l. s p I:H'! c h c en r e r· e d on phi1.osophy, and it seemed to be a i-:hr'OIJ.Jbdck l:.o h.i.s days of teach Lng at Dalhousie Law School. With r· ~=!spec t., 1: l.t.Jo ul. d suggest that. it did not really reflect a good under's t.dnd ing of lhe pr·ac Ucal. operations of the Legal Aid Conurd .s~;ion. [ haVf'! to s~y. LIJhen I intrcduced the bill I did not d n L i. c i. p d ! ..

P d n y o p p o s ·i. t i on , so 1 did not give a very full e x p 1. •.Hh:l t.i. o n . ~) o fH>. d1 d p s p a r· t. o f the problem was caused by me. But '( L r· u s i: n 01..11 L h •:1 i-. T h d. v <c~ g -i. v e n r.:t more complete explanation, and s ·i. n r: 1-:~ lll!?.llltHH' •; o p po s 'i. 1-. e have ~,.~ d a chance t.o do some of Lhei r own t' ~-~ s 1::~ d r· c: h ,-., n d c: h ~~ r k 1~1 'i. t·. h L 11 '"~ L <:' g d 1 f'l'id Comrniss:ion, perhaps they will .:1gr·e,~ l·.hdl. l.hi.:; i.:; d r·:~dSl)rl.:tble measur8 after aJl.

So, wH. h t.hose comment-s, ~ p t:' .:1 k f:' r· , I rnotJe s:~cond n>.dd'i.ng the bill. MR. RARRY : W o ul d 1··. h e rn i n ·i. s t t! t' b E:' p r· e p a r· e d entertain a question? MS VERGE : Mr·. of to No. 62 R3 527

Mr·. Spf-'ak8r, yes, I tJJouJd be pr'c>.prH'Pcl

h) c-Hl h:~r· l·d i.n <.~ '-1'11 ·~ ·; I· ion lr·orn ·l hE ·! nH·' i'iL:f · r· fol" Mount. ~'lc.) o Hell fsl.{rlC .i, <-ll.t:horlgh, or I;C)IIt'~)C:', IAIE' illi l.J hd lJ 1.-! i::l i'IO l.hP r· C hi:.l riCE~ to do U!i :11 in Cointnill~;~c:' or t:hP Whn1c :'. Mf? . BARRY : Y E:~ ~; , M r · . S p E:' a I<E·! r· , lAH>. lAri 1 1 h a v e a n oppor·l:un ·i.l:y l.:o go ·i.nl.:o Jh is m.:'ll ··.l:f:'t' .in Cornrni'Lh'(~ of lhe WholE:~. MR. SPFAKFR: 0 r· d e:-r· , p l. e i:.l s e ! I under· s ~.:ood HH:> hon . rn i. ni. s h>.r' Wd s closing the debate. MR.

B()RRY: The minjster· just agrE~ed to e:~ n L (-?. r t. a i. n c1 4 u f'! s t· i. o n , M r· . S p c-~ "' k E! r , while your attention u.Jas being cl-i .vl:>t'l ·c-:>d by othc:H' ·i.nd ·i vidudls. AN HON. MEMAfR : A rr d by y o u r· s el v 8 s . MR. SPf()l<rR: l' h ('! h 0 II ' I h H n I(! Ill b F' r· r ( H' r., () u 1'1 l: ~ c; i 0 n E> l J T ~; J e-n: d . ~-,R. Fl()RRY : And i.ly lilY :;,:; '11 C~d911C~~;' r dfll SlH'l:~' y t~ s . Mr·. SpE:!akE:H', T wonder if the fn i. n j_ S 1". <·:! r• l_ S dlJ.J.-1 r' Co!

J.: h r:\J: [': h G t' () Ilk\ Y have bE:~en a breakdou.m j n COifllnUni.cdl ".·i.on bei:tJJef>.rl IIIE~Tnbl:H 'S of' UtE:~ Comm:iss'ion and the benchers of the l.atJJ Soci.ety? flecausE~ my cons uJ ta lion with the Secretary and Tr'et~sur·er· of the La1.1J Society Jnd:i.cated that, in fact, they were not at.1.Jdt't~ of the b lll. corning beforE:~ ·l:he House :i.n thJs session and i::her'E! l~Jd~; ~ v~H'Y t'E:1al. concer·n about. !:he ·jmpact :it could have on t h (I s e I u s u a 11 y y () 1.1 n g e t' Ill e llli:HH' s 0 r the bar, who are involved to a lar'gf:~ exJ ··.E1nl·. wi.l~h l.eg.~l d"id I~Jor·k . fn <,;pndk ·ing l:o nH~Hlbc~r·s or !:hP 1.3 ~.2R JllrtE ·! /.3, J9flfl Vol XI legal AJd CommissJon sJnce Lhis <:k'bdlc~, l.hc-~y h,~

t) r' ind ~i.c:.'\l .. ed Lhdi ther·E:1 tJJill bE:~ y ··~ f"en·als to the b.n ·. Unl. :i ke : i!•-; r··i yhl 1.1Ji ny s o n· y ! - t. h e S c.. , i <:1 1 :i s t rl b e r· r a l j o n

I) r I h n r· i lj h I. UJ' j n y M J i l j ~' l ~H' 0 r 1-1 E?. a 1 t h , I u n d e r· s t a n d i t j s n o ·l UH"! i. n 'l:c~; 1 I l.o c; o 111 p 1 {~ l: <:' l y n ~ 111 o v c.:. t: h t:' legal aid cases from the privatE:' b.u· . fn r<:~c:l-, T i:hi .nk l::he mjnistE:'r may haVE! led us astray a b -i 1: a l o n g t h lc~ s l~ 1 i. n e s ·i. n l::f>. r· rn s o f talking about increasing the nUlll~HH'S oF .i.n -house lawyet·s ~ 1: t:he expense of the legal aid cases thdt would be referred out.

That. was a very real con c E! rn, and IJ.JhE:~i:.hf>.r' or· not the.:. 1n:inisl:er· tJ.Jani~.s to recognize it, philosophy does sl .. _l,ll h<:-J.VE~ a l.:i.l:tle part to play jn the application of the legal s y s J·· C:' 111 ·i. n l': h ·i ~; P r· o vi n c e , JJ.Jh i:l 1-. e v <:> r· the dJfficultjes caused by the p r· r:~ ( l: i. t: i:1l. :i. 1-. i c,~ s o f HH>. d r a -i. n o n l: he pub] j c tr·easury. There is stilJ a pr'r)bl c)tll ~H:>t'<·) in l':f~r·rns of L:he bjkers' case, the dirty o]d b ·i. k c,H' ~; , !11..:• c h r· l. y d r· u g p u s h ~H' s , those d:ir"l.y cr·jn!inals.

Well, the r ;_'\,: 1. o i people guilly, so you ll-w Tlli'll I e · i s , fllr'-1.1'1 y o 1- 1.: h C:' lJJ h o n E:' e d 1 !:' g a 1 aid a r· e 1 r l l'i rn •. '\ t· ,,, l y f n u n d g u i 1 t y , cannot make decjsions on I~J h <) i. ~; g <) i. 11 g 1:

I) y t:' L the:i r ou.m J awyer on l.o~Jhel:hcn· or· not Lht'Y guj J ty; that tJJould b i DH' t'

f) i:l p pl . i. C d l. i. 0 n . MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: d choice of the basis of Hli:\ y b e f o u n d be a very Thf~ hon. the M·ini.s b~r· of Justice . MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated et.u·l..i.c-H', UH~ Legal A'i.d Cormn:i.s!:.-ion comprises three lawyers who t'E:~pn~sc-~nl-. HH>. l .. dt.o~J Sociel :.y of Newfoundland. I cannot ansu.Jer for l:h(,, i. r· ·i n t·: t' t' n d l. comrnun i.cd 1- i.on~;. T No . 6 2 R3528

can t.ell all hon. 111ernber·s th.:~l·. since trds bjll was introduced, I have not hecH'd f·r·orn the Tr·c,~astu·er of the Law Society. I did meet tJ.J i 1: h L he C h a i. t'f> e r· s o n of t he L e g a 1 A:id Commission to discuss it, and al:. our· rneel:.ing he conf.i .r·1ned 1.uhat he had put :in writing to me J.ast Fa l.l r· E:~ que s t: .. l n g t:. hi s a 111 end 111 en t. and setting out reasons for the r· e q tH~ s t. e d c h d n g c,~ .

Mr·. ~3peakE:~r·, T did i.nd·i .c.:1Le t~Jhen T s p o I< e a r 81.~ol rn i n u t e s a g o t h a t t h e 1-. h r'l.l S 1... 0 I l: h :~ dl iHl\j e I~ I i l. 1 i.H'! 1: 0 ctl.J OlAl l.hc-' l ~gr1l (.)id Conuuission to dss ·iyn 1.·\I~Jyt;!t''> i.n- -hotJ~;,,', nr· rnmrd:wr·s of Ut~ pr·j VC:t.t.e Rar·, to c1 i r,'nl.~; (h.u·g:~r:l tJ.ri.th ollt,'l'l~'''''> ccu·r·y:i .ttg i'l rodx:i .nnnn of l:ife, and 1 o'\S 1·. ye.·lt' Lher·t,' IJ.II'!t'f-'! dbOttl. d lttHtdr·f~d of t ho~;e caSE:!S. nw Ch.:-1 ir·p::·r·son oF i.h:~ COIIIIIIi.ssJ.on ·.i ttd:icatE:!d l..o mE:' that the Cottlflli .ssion inl:ends l·.o r;,u·r·y on bas:ical J.y l he 1.~o1ay they have· been o p f~ r· a t i. n g for· t h ~~ vas 1: rna j or· .i 1-: y o F cr:irninal ]ega] aid clients char·ged IJJ i.

L h o f f c-'! n ~; (->. s w h i c h d o n o 1: c a r· r· y a mc1ximum of life. For alJ. those c a s P s t. h e C o 1111 n L s s .i o n (->. x e r· c · i. ~; P s i. L s judgment abouL which cases to h a n d 1. e Uw o u g h l n --h o u s e 1. a t.IJ y P r· s and 1.uhich Lo far·m to outside lau..Jyer·s, and t.hP Couun·i.ss:i .on IAJi.ll. car-ry on doj ng that. And I have l:o comm~nt, Mr·.

Spei.~ket', i:h . .:~l~ t.11hj lE:' !.he ruernbE:'r' for Mount Stio ·-- R c~ 11 l s l.d nd d i.d tJJaX E:~ 1.oqllf:' nil. y dbout philosophy t.he last time, l .. _odr•\y i.l. sPems Hl.:'\1·. ~l'i.~; ch ·i.l:'r c o n c ~ r'rt h a s 1 o d o u..d t h p o i. e n 1..-i a 1 ror· i.n<:Oifll,' f~o.H'tl'i .ng by SOOlt:~ or hi .~; col.l E-!i·lgues at. the Rar·. Rtd ., Mr·. ~~pPctkE:!r', T i:HII gJi.id 1.ha1 ult-:' h.~vr,' hdd l:hr,~ chance M r~ . fl A :n~ Y : On d po:i.nt. of order, Mr·. Speaker . MR. SPFAKFR: L3 529 June 23, 1988 Vol. XI_ A poi .nl ... or member for Island. MR. BARRY: order·, Mount L h ~~ Scio hon .

Lhe Be]J. Mr. Spea 'ker, thE; minister ]s obviously sl': ·i.l.l. nol' plcki.ng up what is being said on this s]de. I qu'LtE~ cl.E~ar·J.y sr:l.i.d l:hat-. Lt.: ls a matter of soriiE! signjficanCE! that ,., n i. n d .i v 'i. d u d J. a p p J. .i. c ,., n I: h a v P l h e i. r own chojce of lawyers, and you c '~ n no I: r.l e n ':J I: h •'I I: 1-. o l h ~~ rn bE:! c au s e they mjght be guilty. MR. SPrAKER : 0 r· • I f:' r· , p l. r~ d s e ! MR. SPEAKF:r~: The hon. mE~mber j s not. mak:i ng a p 0 i 1'1 1-. 0 j7 l)r' d 1-0• t' . MR. BARRY: No, Mr·. ;.)pr.~dkr:•r·, i l. i.s d po i.nt of cJar:ificaUon, I suppoSE!.

But the rn.i.nis Lr:or· should b::! dtJtdt'f'! oF that . MS VERGE : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: r h E:' h o n . t: h e M t n 'L s L F> r· o f J u s t i c e . MS VERGE: Mr·. Speaker, I think this is gc->.tti.ng dr·agged out J.ong(.;!r' Lhan it should have. We will have another o p p o r· lu rd. I: y i~ o g P t i. n 1': o t h i. s l n Co mm :i.l tee of the Who 1 e . But . b (,~ r or·,,, T c J.o ~; t~ 1·. h r~ deb a 1-. (,~ , M r· .

Speaker, for the second time, I t~JOtl1•1 l. ·i.!<1,~ l-o r·c~rul'r! lh'i.s j nferP.nce being made by the ITJE:'mber ror· Mottnl: ~)ci.o · H,,,ll lsl .dtH:I Uldi ·: tAlhE:!ther· or· not a l.egal Aid cr·i.Hli .n•~l cl.i.r,Hll. ·J.~; ; .. _hough!' t.o be gu:ilty or innocent. has anything to do t)ri. l. h i. I ? 1: n d ::' :) d , l he presumption is always lhat a p :H' s I) 1'1 dlo'lt' 9 f:~ d IJI.i.l' h rHl () F r en c ('! i. s :innocent untJ 1 proven gui] ty. And l.h1~ cr··i.t·_pr··i .a used by the Commiss:ion for accepting clients No. 62 R3529

have to do with the nature of the 0 f r I·~ n c ~~ . T h ~~ f 'i. n .:~ n c i d 1 HH~ '" 1'1 s

I) f llw dpplJ cdtll dnd UH~n thE:' d:~ cis ion ,,.\l:)n ltl· ~~~~H~~I:hE:H' or· nol· In n~;sign i:~n oin .. housE-~ Jawyer· or· a l_, ;liJ.IYPt' .~ 1: UH..:• pr· ·i.u.~ 1:1,~ fLu· IJ.J'i 11 . hiWE'! to do w·:i 1.h ·Uw ava:i l.abil.:ity o i fH~' r· s o n 1'1 1:~ 1 ,., n cl l'.lw ,.., lJ d · i. 1. i.·1 b l I·) r· c,~ s o u r· c c,~ s . M t' . ~) p f.:' d k r:! t' , rnou0. second 11 :1n Aci' : ro Ac-t, 1975. 11 I~J'i 1: h l'. hI) Sr.~ r· f.! Cl d :.i n 9 o f AIIIC!I'ld Hw ~:lOME liON.

MEMB f RS : H e a r· , hE:~ lU' ! conHill:~nl-.s [ this bil.l '- r~ g ;d A i. cl on mot i. on , ct b J ll. , 11 An A c t r o Amendment The Legal Aid Act, 1 9 7 5 , 11 r· e a d cl s e c o n d t i rn e , o r· d e r· e d referred lo a Committee of the Whole HousE~ on I:.OIIIot·r·ou.J (Ai.J.1 No. 23) . MR. SIMMS : 0 r· d C'! r· 7 , fLi . 11 1\1 o .